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Speaker 1: There Are No Girls on the Internet. As a production

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Speaker 1: of I Heart Radio and Unboss Creative. I'm Bridget Todd

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Speaker 1: and this is There Are No Girls on the Internet.

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Speaker 1: Last week, Representative Paul Gosar tweeted an anime video depiction

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Speaker 1: of him killing his colleague, Representative Alexandria Acasio Cortes. Now,

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Speaker 1: this is pretty clearly unacceptable. It's against Twitter's terms of service.

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Speaker 1: And if I tweeted a video of myself murdering a coworker,

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Speaker 1: not only would I be fired, I'd probably beginning a

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Speaker 1: visit from law enforcement. Twitter removed the tweet, but did

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Speaker 1: not kick Gosar off the platform, and after he was

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Speaker 1: censured and stripped of his two committee assignments by a

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Speaker 1: vote of two to two of seven for tweeting the video,

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Speaker 1: he retweeted it because he doesn't care women of color

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Speaker 1: like AOC, they disproportionate levels of harassment, disinformation, and threats online,

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Speaker 1: and this kind of abuse impacts us all because we're

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Speaker 1: not able to have a healthy functioning toocracy unless everyone

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Speaker 1: is able to fully participate. Let's revisit this episode that

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Speaker 1: originally aired in February after AOC faced attacks online because

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Speaker 1: she shared her experience of the insurrection to really hear

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Speaker 1: the toll that harassment takes on women of color in

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Speaker 1: the public eye. If you were online at all last week,

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Speaker 1: you probably saw a Representative Alexandria Acazio Cortes used Instagram

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Speaker 1: Live to get the harrowing account of what she experienced

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Speaker 1: from inside the Capitol complex during the insurrection on the Capitol.

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Speaker 1: In this account, she also shared that, like so many

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Speaker 1: of us, she is a survivor of sexual violence. Now

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Speaker 1: this triggered a real time tsunami of disinformation. Right wing

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Speaker 1: figures like Representative Nancy Mace and Jack Possabik and others

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Speaker 1: falsely accused AOC of not really being at the Capitol

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Speaker 1: at all or exaggerating her claims. So it's true. While

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Speaker 1: she was not in the main domed Capitol building, that

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Speaker 1: building that you think of when you picture the capital

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Speaker 1: on your head when rioters breached it, she also never

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Speaker 1: claim to be She accurately said that she was in

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Speaker 1: the Cannon House office building, which is part of the

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Speaker 1: Capital complex and is connected to the main building by tunnels.

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Speaker 1: Here's what she said on Instagram. I hide back in

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Speaker 1: um in the bathroom behind the door, and then I

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Speaker 1: just start to hear these yells of where is she?

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Speaker 1: Where is she? And I just thought to myself, they

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Speaker 1: got inside. It felt like my brain was able to

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Speaker 1: have so many thoughts in that moment. So AOC never

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Speaker 1: said that rioters were in her hallway. That's a claim

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Speaker 1: she never made, But that didn't stop Nancy Mas from tweeting,

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Speaker 1: I'm two doors down from AOC and no insurrection has

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Speaker 1: stormed our hallway, even though ANOC never said they did. Now,

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Speaker 1: in AOC's Instagram live, she recounted hearing somebody bang on

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Speaker 1: her office door, coming to her office and say where

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Speaker 1: is she. At the time, she was afraid that rioters

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Speaker 1: had found her, but she later realized this person was

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Speaker 1: a Capitol Police officer who was there to help her. Now,

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Speaker 1: after this, we saw really ugly trends on Twitter like

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Speaker 1: hashtag AOC lied and hashtag Alexandria Occasio Smalett comparing her

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Speaker 1: to Jusie Smalllett to suggest that she was making up

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Speaker 1: her account, despite it being corroborated by multiple people like

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Speaker 1: Representative Katie Porter and Bernie Sanders, aid Ari Rabin, So

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Speaker 1: this is actually a really good example of how disinformation

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Speaker 1: works in real time. This complete distortion of what AOC

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Speaker 1: said has become part of the public dialogue despite it

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Speaker 1: being based on lies. After this, AOC tweeted, the sad

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Speaker 1: thing about disinformation is that once the truth comes out,

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Speaker 1: the damage has already been done. People have already been misled,

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Speaker 1: radicalized and believe lies to the point where their hatred

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Speaker 1: is brewed to violence. That's what led to the six

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Speaker 1: and that's what's happening now. And you know what she's right.

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Speaker 1: After she bravely shared her story of what happened at

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Speaker 1: the Capitol and connected it to being us her viber

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Speaker 1: of sexual assault, she faced a coordinated public disinformation campaign

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Speaker 1: and sadly, this is not an isolated thing for women

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Speaker 1: of color in the public political eye. Leslie mac is

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Speaker 1: a prominent digital activists, an organizer who I work with

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Speaker 1: a ultraviolet where we create resources to curb sexist, racist disinformation,

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Speaker 1: like our media guy that you can find on the

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Speaker 1: show description. And sadly, Leslie really knows what it's like

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Speaker 1: to face these kinds of attacks online. You're a long

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Speaker 1: time digital organizer, activists, someone who spent a lot of

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Speaker 1: time making the world a better place via the Internet.

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Speaker 1: How did you get into this work. Tell me about

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Speaker 1: your role in this work. Yeah, my roles work started

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Speaker 1: in the digital space. UM in twenty uh fourteen, I

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Speaker 1: started organizing faith spaces online after I joined Twitter. I

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Speaker 1: had been in Twitter for like two thousand eight or something,

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Speaker 1: which seems like ages ago. UM, and I had started

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Speaker 1: doing some legislative organizing that way. We were working in

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Speaker 1: New Jersey to ban the box, UM and also some

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Speaker 1: bail reform UM initiatives and so a lot of that.

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Speaker 1: My my initial digital organizing work was around legislative work,

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Speaker 1: which was really interesting and UM at the time a

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Speaker 1: little cutting edge. Not a lot of folks were doing it,

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Speaker 1: but we kind of dipped our toes in and started

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Speaker 1: organizing folks online. And then UM, after Mike Brown was murdered,

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Speaker 1: UM feminist Jones had UM kind of put this call

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Speaker 1: out on from Twitter to say, hey, what would you

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Speaker 1: be interested in hosting a vigil in your city this week?

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Speaker 1: And I was like, sure, I could do one in Philly.

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Speaker 1: And I I call that the you know, the moment

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Speaker 1: that the full digital organizer that is Leslie Mac was born.

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Speaker 1: So that that's where I started out, was organizing that

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Speaker 1: first vigil in Philadelphia UM the national moment of silence,

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Speaker 1: and I guess I liked it because I just kept ongoing, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: you're kind of a prolific digital organizer. You're someone who

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Speaker 1: I feel is one. It was one of the sort

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Speaker 1: of when I think about some of the foundational black

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Speaker 1: feminists who were showing up online, I definitely think about you,

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Speaker 1: and you know, full disclosure, you and I worked together

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Speaker 1: UM at Ultra Violet. And so yesterday was kind of

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Speaker 1: a a long wild day for folks who are online

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Speaker 1: and in feminist spaces online because we saw AOC really

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Speaker 1: being at the center of this coordinated right wing disinformation

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Speaker 1: campaign against her after she really bravely shared her story

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Speaker 1: about what happened in the insurrection on January six and

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Speaker 1: her own personal story as a survivor of sexual violence.

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Speaker 1: And so my first question for you is how do

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Speaker 1: you see disinformation and abuse being linked? Well, they're linked,

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Speaker 1: you know, on two on two levels. And I was

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Speaker 1: talking about this with you yesterday, which is one is

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Speaker 1: UM at the personal level, which is that abusers in

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Speaker 1: our real lives are personal lives, use disinformation against us,

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Speaker 1: right so they tell us lies about ourselves about the

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Speaker 1: world that nobody will love us and that that's a

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Speaker 1: tool that they utilize at the personal level. And what

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Speaker 1: we're watching is UM public abusers, right, people that are

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Speaker 1: abusing the system, people that are abusing UM, people within it,

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Speaker 1: UM using disinformation for that same purpose, which is to

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Speaker 1: um degrade, denigrade, and deny the experiences, real life experiences

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Speaker 1: of marginalized people. So watching that play out with AOC,

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Speaker 1: you know, she bravely UM not only shared her story,

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Speaker 1: but she went personally one to one to the people,

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Speaker 1: which I think this is such a digital story in

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Speaker 1: and of itself, UM that she took to I G

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Speaker 1: live to UM have this hour long conversation, and the

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Speaker 1: way I saw it play out, I didn't I didn't

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Speaker 1: know she was live until I saw on Twitter people

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Speaker 1: were tweeting about it and they were like, Wow, AOC

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Speaker 1: is doing x y Z And I said, oh, let me,

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Speaker 1: let me go over to UM I G and watch her.

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Speaker 1: So I was watching her UM, and while that was happening,

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Speaker 1: somebody was starting a chat clubhouse room to talk about it,

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Speaker 1: to debriefit. UM shout out to Tracy Cord and then

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Speaker 1: as I was watching it, it said, O, Katie Porter's

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Speaker 1: gonna be talking about this I G Live on MSNBC shortly.

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Speaker 1: So it was this moment of like, whoa, all of

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Speaker 1: this digital stuff was happening. It was pinging and and

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Speaker 1: and UM creating waves all over the place. And and

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Speaker 1: then subsequently what that's what we watched was the abusers

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Speaker 1: that UM AOC was naming in her I G Live namely,

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Speaker 1: UH folks like Marjorie Taylor Green and really all the

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Speaker 1: insurrectionists that and seditionists, UM electives that UM supported UM

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Speaker 1: the coup on on January six, and they've subsequently now

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Speaker 1: tried to discount her personal experience in this harrowing moment.

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Speaker 1: And it's been wild to watch people just blatantly lie.

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Speaker 1: You know. One of her fellow congress uh uh congress

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Speaker 1: people said, oh, I'm I'm, I was too. I'm two

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Speaker 1: dolls two doors down from her, and there were knows

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Speaker 1: nobody in the hallway. And then we find out that

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Speaker 1: the person evacuated before anything happened. There's the level of

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Speaker 1: disinformation is really disturbing to watch in real time. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it is completely like a coordinated at the text you're

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Speaker 1: talking about. Nancy Maates from South Carolina, So she tweeted

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Speaker 1: yesterday I'm two doors down from an oblec and no

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Speaker 1: insurrection has stormed our hallway. But that day, she herself

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Speaker 1: tweeted on January six, that she was being evacuated because

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Speaker 1: of this threat. You know, she she described it as

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Speaker 1: quote a nearby threat. Um. She later did an interview,

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Speaker 1: I think, on Good Morning America where she said that

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Speaker 1: she was so frightened by what happened that she her

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Speaker 1: she stayed overnight in her office, she was working, you know,

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Speaker 1: her motherly instincts kicked in, and that she was so

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Speaker 1: afraid for her life that she was thinking about bringing

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Speaker 1: a gun with her to Capitol Hill from now on

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Speaker 1: because she was so afraid. And so that's how she

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Speaker 1: talked about it right after it happened. And so it's

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Speaker 1: very telling that now weeks later, after aoc A, Saenti

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Speaker 1: really says the same thing that I was afraid for

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Speaker 1: my life. Um, somebody knocked on the door, and I

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Speaker 1: was afraid for my life. She's saying that didn't happen.

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Speaker 1: And I think it's really interesting how you see the

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Speaker 1: way that this is coordinated. You know, we saw some

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Speaker 1: another big account on the right tweeting a map with

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Speaker 1: arrows trying to indicate that AOC was not, you know,

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Speaker 1: not in the capital when folk storm and a see

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Speaker 1: yourself replied and said, your arrows are wrong. And AOC

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Speaker 1: had a really good tweet where she talked about the

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Speaker 1: fact that disinformation. One of the ways that it plays

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Speaker 1: out is that once it's out there in the public narrative,

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Speaker 1: it doesn't matter if it's not based in reality or

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Speaker 1: if it's an outright fabrication. That becomes part of the

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Speaker 1: narrative for so many people in a way that you

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Speaker 1: can almost never kind of correct. Yeah, you never can

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Speaker 1: pull it back once once the cats out of the

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Speaker 1: bag with disinformation, and it also gets spread in such

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Speaker 1: innocuous ways. Um, it just becomes fact, and it happens

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Speaker 1: so quickly it's really an impossible thing to to corral

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Speaker 1: back in. One other thing I'd mentioned is that even

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Speaker 1: you know, AOC herself never said insurrection is stormed there

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Speaker 1: that hallway. What she said was somebody was walking down

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Speaker 1: there and she was afraid of who it was. So

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Speaker 1: even in the um disinformation, they were already twisting the

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Speaker 1: things that AOC said and saying things that she she

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Speaker 1: never said at all. And so the levels of lies right,

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Speaker 1: um start to compound themselves. They've misinterpreted what AOC said

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Speaker 1: at the start. Then they're calling her a liar erroneously,

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Speaker 1: and now we have, you know, these ridiculous hashtags UM

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Speaker 1: that are you know, attempting to discredit Alexandria and and

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Speaker 1: you know the real obvious pain that she she was in.

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Speaker 1: And and it's interesting because nobody's discounting Katie Porter's UM account.

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Speaker 1: So she also gave a very similar account, talked about

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Speaker 1: when Alexandra was in her office and what happened in there.

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Speaker 1: She was opening up door and and I was like,

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Speaker 1: can I help you? Like, what are you looking for?

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Speaker 1: And she said, I'm looking for where I'm going to hide.

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Speaker 1: And the thing that will always stay with me was

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Speaker 1: when she said, I just hope I get to be

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Speaker 1: a mom. I hope I don't die today. It's fascinating

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Speaker 1: to watch that two people can talk about an incident,

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Speaker 1: that their stories match up exactly the same, but only

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Speaker 1: one is targeted for for disinformation. That That's what tells

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Speaker 1: me it's coordinated, it's deliberate, and it's um um and

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Speaker 1: it's supposed to be specific to individuals. It's not happenstance. Absolutely,

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Speaker 1: I mean that drives with everything that we know from

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Speaker 1: the research. We know disinformation is worse for women of

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Speaker 1: color in politics. A report from the Institute for Strategic

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Speaker 1: Diet a report from the Institute for Strategic Dialogue reveals

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Speaker 1: that women of color candidates and political and political officials

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Speaker 1: are targeted on the right but on social media at

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Speaker 1: alarming rate. So this this report found that women of

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Speaker 1: color were particularly likely to be targeted. Um elon Omar

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Speaker 1: received the highest proportion three percent of abusive messages of

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Speaker 1: all the candidates and their studies, and AOC received the

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Speaker 1: highest ratio of abusive comments on Facebook. So you know,

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Speaker 1: we know, you know, it's completely jives with this research

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Speaker 1: that Katie Porter, her testimony, her her sharing her story

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Speaker 1: would not be picked apart and sort of targeted for

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Speaker 1: this kind of coordinated disinformation campaign in the same way

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Speaker 1: that someone like AOC would be. So one question I

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Speaker 1: have for you is why do you think that women

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Speaker 1: of color are such bigger targets for this kind of

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Speaker 1: disinformation online? Yeah, I mean I think we're bigger targets

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Speaker 1: in general, UM and especially for our elected UM women

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Speaker 1: of color because we get shipped done, and we really

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Speaker 1: are there to stand in the gap for UM. Those

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Speaker 1: that are marginalized right in ways that are white counterparts

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Speaker 1: are not UM. So off the bat, we're all already

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Speaker 1: facing UM some some pushback to the work that we

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Speaker 1: want to do in the world, and whether that's in

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Speaker 1: political spaces or wherever. UM. The other side of that

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Speaker 1: is that we're we're easy targets, which is which means

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Speaker 1: that somebody attacking Katie Porter is going to be seen

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Speaker 1: as mean. UM, They're going to be seen is not nice.

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Speaker 1: But somebody attacking a woman of color, it becomes something

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Speaker 1: so it's so okay, And then the pylonic occurs and

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Speaker 1: people are waiting, are just waiting for opportunities to attack

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Speaker 1: woman of color. And and this is something that you know,

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Speaker 1: you and I've been dealing with in digital spaces for

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Speaker 1: you know, a decade plus now, so it's not UM news.

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Speaker 1: But I think those two things or why we become

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Speaker 1: such lightning rods. I mean, the goal is to silence us.

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Speaker 1: The goal is to get us out of positions of power.

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Speaker 1: The goal is to make UM the kinds of changes

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Speaker 1: that we are collectively and individually pushed for, not reality.

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Speaker 1: And so starting with attacking woman of color, that's like

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Speaker 1: the that's the front line of that of that a pushback.

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Speaker 1: What you just said completely jives with what you know

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Speaker 1: about disinformation, right, Like one of the points of disinformation

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Speaker 1: is to silence people, Right, So I think at disinformers,

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Speaker 1: they don't want women of color to be putting their

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Speaker 1: ideas out into the world, to be creating the kind

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Speaker 1: of changes that they want to be responsible for in

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Speaker 1: the world. And so these kinds of really scary, coordinated

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Speaker 1: disinformation attacks are meant to have a chilling effect on

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Speaker 1: their targets. And so they're meant to make AOC and

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Speaker 1: women who aspire to be like her, other women of

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Speaker 1: color who might want to be activists, might want to

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Speaker 1: be involved in politics, or might just want to put

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Speaker 1: their ideas about these things into the world via Twitter

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Speaker 1: or social media. It's meant to make these people feel

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Speaker 1: so afraid and be so fearful that this kind of

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Speaker 1: thing is going to happen to them that they just stop.

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Speaker 1: They don't put their opinions out into the world, they

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Speaker 1: don't try to shape the world. They don't they stop

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Speaker 1: with their activism online. And I think, you know, when

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Speaker 1: we have conversations about disinformation, they often turn into conversations

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Speaker 1: about free speech, and we need to be talking about

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Speaker 1: the ways that this is shut It an attempt to

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Speaker 1: shut down free speech and to make it so that

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Speaker 1: people don't feel comfortable engaging in public discourse. Absolutely, and

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Speaker 1: it's so you know, the thing that has been hitting

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Speaker 1: me so much is how normalized, you know, these types

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Speaker 1: of attacks against women of color elected officials have become. UM.

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Speaker 1: You know, I was listening to Rashida to leave from

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Speaker 1: the floor last night UM and the hearing around stripping

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Speaker 1: Marjorie Taylor Green's UM committee assignments, and she said, I

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Speaker 1: wanted to go last because I knew it was gonna

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Speaker 1: be hard for me to talk about it. And she

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Speaker 1: talked about the fact that her first day on Capitol Hill,

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Speaker 1: she hadn't even been sworn in yet, and they there

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Speaker 1: was already a death threat against her, serious enough that

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Speaker 1: the FBI had to come and pull her aside. It

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Speaker 1: was her first one, not even sworn in yet, first

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Speaker 1: day in DC, and she said she was paralyzed, and

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Speaker 1: everyone after that paralyzed. One mentioned her son. You know,

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Speaker 1: she really talked about the trauma of it. And her

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Speaker 1: team had to decide to kind of shield her from

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Speaker 1: it moving forward because they recognized how it paralyzed her.

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Speaker 1: And she said, when she saw what was happening on

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Speaker 1: January six, the things she thought was thank God, thank allah,

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Speaker 1: I'm not I'm not there, um, because she knew that

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Speaker 1: she would be a direct target as well. And So

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Speaker 1: when we think about, you know, so many, so much

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Speaker 1: work that's been going into getting more women of color

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Speaker 1: to run for office, getting more when women of color elected,

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Speaker 1: the flip side of that is we do not have

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Speaker 1: systems set up to actually hold the space that women

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Speaker 1: of color UM, that that serve UM in that way,

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Speaker 1: to hold them in the trauma that is sure to follow.

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Speaker 1: And and the other thing I want to bring to

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Speaker 1: attention is that are our decades of ignoring this kind

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Speaker 1: of violence and digital spaces is why we're seeing it

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Speaker 1: accepted UM in real world spaces. There's a direct correlation

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Speaker 1: between all of the work that we have been doing

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Speaker 1: UM in digital spaces to to throwing up these red

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Speaker 1: flags for so so long. I know you had sharene

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Speaker 1: on the on the podcast a couple of weeks ago,

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Speaker 1: and um, you know, just she's she's amazing and her

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Speaker 1: groundbreaking work to just point out that Nope, this is

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Speaker 1: not just uh general harassment, it's very specific, it's very targeted,

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Speaker 1: and it's meant to silence women of color. All of

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Speaker 1: that is now in the in in in the real world,

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Speaker 1: and it it became normalized in digital spaces. And that's

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Speaker 1: the danger. When things become normalized in digital spaces, it

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Speaker 1: means they're going to be acceptable outside of digital spaces.

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Speaker 1: There's no barrier between the two. We are living beyond

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Speaker 1: the digital age. There's a complete melding of digital life

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Speaker 1: and quote unquote real life. That means that anything we

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Speaker 1: we find acceptable or or treat as acceptable online become

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Speaker 1: the same in real world. A very short time, let's

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Speaker 1: take a quick break enter back. One thing that I

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Speaker 1: wish that people understood is that what happens digitally and

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Speaker 1: what happens in the real world, those two things are

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Speaker 1: not distinct. And I think for so long, and I

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Speaker 1: think we're starting to see that. You know, the insurrection

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Speaker 1: was one way that I think that folks who were

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Speaker 1: unwilling to see this maybe are like, oh, I think

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Speaker 1: that perhaps what happens online does have real world impact.

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Speaker 1: But for so long when it was a lot of

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Speaker 1: women and women of color and black women online who

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Speaker 1: were saying, hey, we're being harassed, Hey, this is happening

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Speaker 1: to us, and no one was listening. I think one

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Speaker 1: of the reasons why that was minimized is because it

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Speaker 1: was happening quote unquote just online, and the perception that

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Speaker 1: you could just step away from your computer or turn

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Speaker 1: off your computer or get off social media and it

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Speaker 1: wouldn't be happening anymore, completely completely divorced from the reality

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Speaker 1: that if it's out there in the ether happening online,

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Speaker 1: it's out there in the real world. Right, these words,

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Speaker 1: these worlds are not so distinct and so separate. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and if you think of you, I know, I think

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Speaker 1: if you think of this, info at some point is

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Speaker 1: an unsharpened pencil, right, just the thing UM can't do

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Speaker 1: very much, but it is. It is a tool. I

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Speaker 1: would say that that what happened was it was sharpened

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Speaker 1: against women of color, It was sharpened against I just

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Speaker 1: think back to some of the early um moments of

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Speaker 1: dis info that I remember, like gamer Gate is a

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Speaker 1: that that entire thing started with disinfo, and so the

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Speaker 1: tool of disinformation was sharpened on all of our pain

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Speaker 1: and all of the attacks that came against us. It

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Speaker 1: was sharpened, it was sharpened, and it was perfected. UM.

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Speaker 1: And so now that it's being used to great effect

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Speaker 1: across the board, not just directed at us, but directed

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Speaker 1: at government generally speaking, directed at you know, misinformation and elections,

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Speaker 1: miss disinformation in so many sectors, um, even around COVID nineteen. Um,

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Speaker 1: it's wild because you know we are. I wrote an

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Speaker 1: article a couple of for b y P One Dred

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Speaker 1: like two years ago, and I think I called it

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Speaker 1: something like black women, um, always playing, always cast in

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Speaker 1: the role of Cassandra, and and the piece was really

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Speaker 1: just like, we're really tired of not being able to

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Speaker 1: see the future telling you what's going to happen, and

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Speaker 1: nobody listening to us. Uh. It gets exhausting, right. I

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Speaker 1: do feel like we have this this like narrative of

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Speaker 1: like trust black women, listen to black women. And obviously

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Speaker 1: I have a shirt that says that, Obviously I agree

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Speaker 1: with that, but we also have to have a very

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Speaker 1: real conversation about what happens when you're expected to be

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Speaker 1: the person who can see in the crystal ball and

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Speaker 1: warn everybody time and time and time again. And I

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Speaker 1: think you know, you and I had a good conversation

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Speaker 1: about this moment regarding AOC but also disinformation kind of

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Speaker 1: writ large. And I do think like this is a

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Speaker 1: moment where we can have a reckoning or a hard

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Speaker 1: reset and say no, we're not going to do this again,

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Speaker 1: where we, after the facts, say oh, we should have

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Speaker 1: listened to black women. This is an opportunity to really

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Speaker 1: get it right. And that's what I would love to see.

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Speaker 1: I would love to not just see this be another

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Speaker 1: time where you know, in six months, we all say, oh,

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Speaker 1: we should have listened to these these you know, black

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Speaker 1: women activists, black women social media users, or black women

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Speaker 1: researchers who saw this coming. But we actually say, oh,

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Speaker 1: people warned us and we did something, we took meaningful action. Yeah. Absolutely.

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Speaker 1: And even in the like after acknowledgements, it never goes

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Speaker 1: as far as what you just said. It's always an

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Speaker 1: acknowledgement like, oh, we should have known this, right, we

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Speaker 1: should have known this, or we should have known from

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Speaker 1: this more recent thing. And what I'd like, folks, the

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Speaker 1: the acknowledgement needs to go away further back. It needs

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Speaker 1: to acknowledge the fact that the entire ecosystem collectively decided

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Speaker 1: not to listen to women of color and especially black

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Speaker 1: women in digital spaces as we were shouting from the

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Speaker 1: rooftops about how abuse was being weaponized, how it was

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Speaker 1: being coordinated, you know, in small ways and large ways,

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Speaker 1: and how every single platform has ways in which we

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Speaker 1: can be targeted for harassment that that they refused to

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Speaker 1: close the loop on. I'll use an example. Twitter lists

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Speaker 1: great lists. It's a great function. You can make a

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Speaker 1: list of people that like to talk about a specific thing.

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Speaker 1: But there's no setting that allows me to stop anyone

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Speaker 1: from putting me on a list. So once a month

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Speaker 1: I go through the list that I'm on, and invariably

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Speaker 1: I find four or five that are horrible, that say

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Speaker 1: things that are terrible and have put me on a

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Speaker 1: list with you know, a bunch of you know, great people.

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Speaker 1: But the name of the list is something you know,

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Speaker 1: really egregious and um clearly meant for people to target

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Speaker 1: me and anybody else on the list as well, And

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Speaker 1: so I have to remove myself by blocking the person.

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Speaker 1: They don't even let you remove yourself from a list.

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Speaker 1: By the way, these are small functional things within a system,

430
00:23:34,960 --> 00:23:39,120
Speaker 1: right within within a platform. That enable abuse that are

431
00:23:39,240 --> 00:23:43,240
Speaker 1: very easy to correct and yet doesn't happen. Articles have

432
00:23:43,320 --> 00:23:45,840
Speaker 1: been written about this, people have pointed it out. Every

433
00:23:45,880 --> 00:23:48,040
Speaker 1: month I go live and I just like screenshot the

434
00:23:48,080 --> 00:23:50,960
Speaker 1: list that I'm on, and it's like horrible, And I

435
00:23:51,000 --> 00:23:53,040
Speaker 1: can tell. I can tell when I start getting attacks.

436
00:23:53,080 --> 00:23:56,119
Speaker 1: I'm like, oh shit, I'm on a list somewhere, like

437
00:23:56,480 --> 00:23:58,199
Speaker 1: I can I just know it, I can feel it,

438
00:23:58,320 --> 00:24:01,000
Speaker 1: Like why this tweet is an is? Why are so

439
00:24:01,040 --> 00:24:04,560
Speaker 1: many trolls jumping on it? Okay? You know, and it's

440
00:24:04,680 --> 00:24:08,840
Speaker 1: it's um. I think that you're right that that it

441
00:24:08,880 --> 00:24:12,040
Speaker 1: needs to be a much more proactive approach now that

442
00:24:12,240 --> 00:24:14,439
Speaker 1: all of this data exists, Like you can't say you

443
00:24:14,480 --> 00:24:16,480
Speaker 1: don't know. You can't say you don't have we don't

444
00:24:16,480 --> 00:24:18,280
Speaker 1: have the data to back it up. You can't say

445
00:24:18,280 --> 00:24:23,240
Speaker 1: that we're not seeing the very real, dangerous implications and

446
00:24:23,400 --> 00:24:28,240
Speaker 1: repercussions from unchecked digital harassment. And that that's the part

447
00:24:28,280 --> 00:24:30,320
Speaker 1: that I think we need to get to. You're someone

448
00:24:30,359 --> 00:24:35,959
Speaker 1: who is a prominent visible black woman activist on on

449
00:24:36,040 --> 00:24:39,639
Speaker 1: digital in digital spaces, right, and so that sounds phenomenal.

450
00:24:39,760 --> 00:24:41,240
Speaker 1: You know, you have a blue check mark. I see

451
00:24:41,240 --> 00:24:44,000
Speaker 1: people who are like oh, that must mean you're rich

452
00:24:44,119 --> 00:24:47,879
Speaker 1: or very powerful. But with that visibility calm, it's like

453
00:24:47,880 --> 00:24:52,240
Speaker 1: a double edged sword where you also deal with this oversized,

454
00:24:53,040 --> 00:24:58,359
Speaker 1: you know, oversized abusive reaction online like people, people, I

455
00:24:58,400 --> 00:25:01,520
Speaker 1: see people pile on you the time. You'll say something

456
00:25:01,520 --> 00:25:04,840
Speaker 1: innocuous and people it's like people were waiting in the

457
00:25:04,920 --> 00:25:09,080
Speaker 1: rafters to attack you. And I think that we really

458
00:25:09,480 --> 00:25:12,399
Speaker 1: have to acknowledge the toll that can take. You know,

459
00:25:12,440 --> 00:25:14,000
Speaker 1: there are people out there who are probably like, oh,

460
00:25:14,040 --> 00:25:16,080
Speaker 1: if you have a zillion followers on Twitter and a

461
00:25:16,080 --> 00:25:18,520
Speaker 1: blue check mark, you must be having the best time

462
00:25:18,520 --> 00:25:21,000
Speaker 1: on social media. I wish I had that. But with

463
00:25:21,080 --> 00:25:23,119
Speaker 1: that kind of visibility and that with that kind of

464
00:25:23,160 --> 00:25:27,080
Speaker 1: platform comes a lot of this abuse and that all

465
00:25:27,119 --> 00:25:29,639
Speaker 1: of this nonsense that makes your experiences online when you're

466
00:25:29,680 --> 00:25:32,560
Speaker 1: just trying to put your opinions out there difficult, and

467
00:25:32,600 --> 00:25:35,480
Speaker 1: we have these platforms really doing nothing about it and

468
00:25:35,600 --> 00:25:39,399
Speaker 1: enabling it. Absolutely. It definitely is one of those weird

469
00:25:39,480 --> 00:25:45,359
Speaker 1: things of um realizing that you have become not a

470
00:25:45,400 --> 00:25:48,760
Speaker 1: real person in digital spaces to a lot of folks,

471
00:25:49,160 --> 00:25:51,360
Speaker 1: and it takes it takes them. For me, it took

472
00:25:51,440 --> 00:25:54,239
Speaker 1: some getting used to just like, oh, like, let I'll

473
00:25:54,280 --> 00:25:56,359
Speaker 1: put and put an air quotes up. Y'all can't see me.

474
00:25:56,400 --> 00:26:01,360
Speaker 1: But by mac, it's not actually a person to to people, Um,

475
00:26:02,280 --> 00:26:05,200
Speaker 1: it's it's this you know, it's an entity or it's

476
00:26:05,240 --> 00:26:07,720
Speaker 1: it's a thing. And I'm like, I'm I'm just a

477
00:26:07,760 --> 00:26:10,639
Speaker 1: forty five year old black woman and I'm a real person.

478
00:26:10,760 --> 00:26:14,400
Speaker 1: I have feelings, I have a family, I have, uh,

479
00:26:14,520 --> 00:26:17,400
Speaker 1: I have you know, mental health struggles I have. I'm

480
00:26:17,440 --> 00:26:19,880
Speaker 1: just a regular person. And yeah, I think a lot

481
00:26:19,920 --> 00:26:23,679
Speaker 1: of the mechanisms UM in digital spaces actually dehumanize us.

482
00:26:23,760 --> 00:26:26,080
Speaker 1: Some of these things that are meant to like, you know,

483
00:26:26,240 --> 00:26:29,480
Speaker 1: amplify us or elevate us, um, like a blue check

484
00:26:29,640 --> 00:26:32,080
Speaker 1: or like a lot of followers. UM. For me, it's

485
00:26:32,119 --> 00:26:35,119
Speaker 1: like Greeks, I'm able to do more work and deeper

486
00:26:35,160 --> 00:26:38,159
Speaker 1: work and have my my work reach wider, but the

487
00:26:38,200 --> 00:26:41,879
Speaker 1: price that you have to pay for that is so large. Um.

488
00:26:41,920 --> 00:26:44,560
Speaker 1: You know, I've left Twitter multiple times because of those

489
00:26:44,600 --> 00:26:47,480
Speaker 1: pylon moments. And You're right, it does feel like folks

490
00:26:47,520 --> 00:26:49,720
Speaker 1: were just like sitting with a bag of ship to

491
00:26:49,800 --> 00:26:53,200
Speaker 1: throw at me and waiting for whatever moment when it

492
00:26:53,480 --> 00:26:56,760
Speaker 1: was deemed okay to do that, right, because it's it's clear.

493
00:26:56,840 --> 00:26:59,879
Speaker 1: You can't do it anytime. You can't just do it

494
00:27:00,000 --> 00:27:02,840
Speaker 1: out of the blue. It has to be when there's

495
00:27:02,960 --> 00:27:05,960
Speaker 1: a mass of it happening. And I think that that

496
00:27:06,040 --> 00:27:10,480
Speaker 1: speaks to the connection again between abuse and disinformation, because

497
00:27:10,480 --> 00:27:15,159
Speaker 1: we're watching bullies coordinate themselves to attack, and this is

498
00:27:15,200 --> 00:27:20,800
Speaker 1: exactly how abusers um act and disinformation works the same way.

499
00:27:21,119 --> 00:27:23,800
Speaker 1: The same people with the same mindset pick up on

500
00:27:23,920 --> 00:27:26,480
Speaker 1: disinformation and they decide that's what they're going to push

501
00:27:26,480 --> 00:27:29,600
Speaker 1: out as the truth. And and you know, as AOC said,

502
00:27:29,640 --> 00:27:33,240
Speaker 1: once it's out there, it's impossible to refute it. Anything

503
00:27:33,320 --> 00:27:36,680
Speaker 1: you say will be just dismissed. Oh you're just saying

504
00:27:36,720 --> 00:27:40,800
Speaker 1: that because X Y Z UM and and there isn't

505
00:27:40,840 --> 00:27:43,000
Speaker 1: a I don't know what the solution is, but I

506
00:27:43,040 --> 00:27:47,080
Speaker 1: do know we've got to make some strides because, um,

507
00:27:47,119 --> 00:27:49,120
Speaker 1: you know, every week I talked to more and more

508
00:27:49,400 --> 00:27:52,320
Speaker 1: you know, black women in particular and digital spaces that

509
00:27:52,359 --> 00:27:54,600
Speaker 1: are just like, I'm just ready to leave. I'm just

510
00:27:54,680 --> 00:28:00,119
Speaker 1: ready to stop, because, um, it's interfering with the The

511
00:28:00,440 --> 00:28:03,959
Speaker 1: pros of the reach are not weighing out with the

512
00:28:04,000 --> 00:28:08,359
Speaker 1: cons of how this is affecting me and um, you know,

513
00:28:08,480 --> 00:28:13,240
Speaker 1: we are so disposable as black women that, um, there's

514
00:28:13,280 --> 00:28:17,160
Speaker 1: no consequences and also no empathy when we are feeling

515
00:28:17,160 --> 00:28:19,960
Speaker 1: and dealing with these moments, um, besides from each other,

516
00:28:20,400 --> 00:28:23,000
Speaker 1: and and it just really has to stop. It really

517
00:28:23,000 --> 00:28:24,840
Speaker 1: makes me reflect on my own use of social media,

518
00:28:24,880 --> 00:28:28,440
Speaker 1: which is actually quite guarded. A C was so vulnerable,

519
00:28:28,520 --> 00:28:30,560
Speaker 1: she really showed up as her full self in this

520
00:28:30,600 --> 00:28:33,120
Speaker 1: way that I really often don't. I almost never talk

521
00:28:33,160 --> 00:28:35,840
Speaker 1: about my personal life or my romantic life because I

522
00:28:35,880 --> 00:28:38,080
Speaker 1: see the way that people will use it to target

523
00:28:38,240 --> 00:28:41,760
Speaker 1: women of color online who do. Yeah, it's definitely true.

524
00:28:41,840 --> 00:28:43,560
Speaker 1: I think, you know, I share a lot of my

525
00:28:43,600 --> 00:28:46,640
Speaker 1: personal life because that's how I build my following and

526
00:28:46,720 --> 00:28:50,400
Speaker 1: my you know, my platform. So I still I still share,

527
00:28:50,440 --> 00:28:52,440
Speaker 1: you know, especially about my dogs, and I share about,

528
00:28:52,480 --> 00:28:54,920
Speaker 1: you know, whatever other things I'm doing or working on.

529
00:28:55,400 --> 00:28:59,320
Speaker 1: But I the thing that has stopped my interactions more

530
00:28:59,520 --> 00:29:03,720
Speaker 1: like I have way less um interactions with strangers than

531
00:29:03,760 --> 00:29:07,640
Speaker 1: I used to. Um, I definitely used to like I

532
00:29:07,680 --> 00:29:09,920
Speaker 1: didn't need to know what you're you know, I didn't

533
00:29:09,920 --> 00:29:12,520
Speaker 1: need I would rarely even go look at someone's platform

534
00:29:12,560 --> 00:29:15,880
Speaker 1: before engaging with them. Around just innocuous topics, and now

535
00:29:16,560 --> 00:29:18,720
Speaker 1: if I don't know you, like I'm not talking to

536
00:29:18,760 --> 00:29:21,840
Speaker 1: you anymore because I don't have I don't know you,

537
00:29:21,840 --> 00:29:24,760
Speaker 1: you could be suspicious. And the time and effort it

538
00:29:24,800 --> 00:29:28,280
Speaker 1: takes to you know, vet you it is not it

539
00:29:28,360 --> 00:29:30,800
Speaker 1: is not some time that I'm willing to spend. And

540
00:29:30,880 --> 00:29:33,880
Speaker 1: so it's definitely changed the way that I can interact

541
00:29:33,880 --> 00:29:36,000
Speaker 1: with people. And it's sad to me because I met

542
00:29:36,040 --> 00:29:38,760
Speaker 1: a lot of amazing people in those earlier days where

543
00:29:38,800 --> 00:29:40,960
Speaker 1: I was able to interact with strangers and be like, oh,

544
00:29:40,960 --> 00:29:44,280
Speaker 1: this person seems cool, Like what other stuff are you doing,

545
00:29:44,320 --> 00:29:46,320
Speaker 1: and getting to know them more and meeting them and

546
00:29:46,640 --> 00:29:48,960
Speaker 1: talking with them and having them on my own podcast

547
00:29:49,000 --> 00:29:52,440
Speaker 1: when I had one end UM, A lot of that

548
00:29:52,480 --> 00:29:55,240
Speaker 1: has just stopped, and I've just become yeah, a little

549
00:29:55,240 --> 00:29:58,080
Speaker 1: bit walled off in the context of I'll share what

550
00:29:58,160 --> 00:30:00,560
Speaker 1: I want, but I'm really not interested in as much

551
00:30:00,600 --> 00:30:05,920
Speaker 1: interaction UM or One of the the tactics that I

552
00:30:06,160 --> 00:30:09,040
Speaker 1: m employees that I have specific posts that are meant

553
00:30:09,040 --> 00:30:12,600
Speaker 1: to be interactive or conversational UM and I usually do

554
00:30:12,680 --> 00:30:14,600
Speaker 1: one or two a week just to have a conversation

555
00:30:14,680 --> 00:30:18,880
Speaker 1: with with folks. But I've had to systemize it because

556
00:30:18,880 --> 00:30:21,640
Speaker 1: it can't be organic for me anymore. Um, the risk

557
00:30:21,800 --> 00:30:25,840
Speaker 1: is too great and it is sad it's made. UM.

558
00:30:25,880 --> 00:30:29,040
Speaker 1: I would say my interactions with strangers a little less

559
00:30:29,080 --> 00:30:31,440
Speaker 1: authentic and that I'm trying to craft a moment to

560
00:30:31,520 --> 00:30:36,760
Speaker 1: talk with them versus organic conversations happening. And you know,

561
00:30:36,920 --> 00:30:40,680
Speaker 1: some of that is just the way that digital spaces

562
00:30:40,720 --> 00:30:42,640
Speaker 1: have evolved, but a lot of it is just me

563
00:30:43,000 --> 00:30:47,280
Speaker 1: having to make different choices because of the harassment. More

564
00:30:47,320 --> 00:31:00,840
Speaker 1: after a quick brain to get right back into it.

565
00:31:01,600 --> 00:31:04,240
Speaker 1: Wouldn't it be something if you didn't have to spend

566
00:31:04,680 --> 00:31:07,280
Speaker 1: your time and your energy and your capacity and your

567
00:31:07,320 --> 00:31:11,480
Speaker 1: brain space systematizing these things because of these abusive platforms.

568
00:31:11,520 --> 00:31:14,480
Speaker 1: Wouldn't it be great at these platforms, you know, especially

569
00:31:14,520 --> 00:31:16,640
Speaker 1: simple things like the Twitter list, you know, wouldn't it

570
00:31:16,640 --> 00:31:18,840
Speaker 1: be great at these platforms listen to their users and said,

571
00:31:19,120 --> 00:31:21,160
Speaker 1: these are the things that you are that you are,

572
00:31:22,040 --> 00:31:24,680
Speaker 1: these are the things that you are doing to enable abuse.

573
00:31:24,760 --> 00:31:26,360
Speaker 1: If you if you it will be very easy to

574
00:31:26,400 --> 00:31:28,640
Speaker 1: fix to stop it. It. Wouldn't it be great if

575
00:31:28,680 --> 00:31:32,560
Speaker 1: you did not have to individually dedicate brain space to

576
00:31:32,800 --> 00:31:35,520
Speaker 1: managing how you were going to deal with this just

577
00:31:35,600 --> 00:31:37,960
Speaker 1: to show up and like, do do your job, live

578
00:31:38,040 --> 00:31:40,880
Speaker 1: your life the way that you want to live it online. Yeah,

579
00:31:40,920 --> 00:31:42,680
Speaker 1: I mean it would be amazing. I mean I have

580
00:31:42,800 --> 00:31:45,080
Speaker 1: the they we have protocols in our house when things,

581
00:31:45,200 --> 00:31:47,400
Speaker 1: you know, when when the attacks really get bad, my

582
00:31:47,440 --> 00:31:50,960
Speaker 1: phone gets taken away from me. Uh, everybody knows to

583
00:31:51,000 --> 00:31:53,520
Speaker 1: text my husband if they need me because I won't

584
00:31:53,520 --> 00:31:55,960
Speaker 1: have it on me anymore. I mean, these are you know,

585
00:31:56,040 --> 00:31:58,960
Speaker 1: coping mechanisms just to protect my own mental health when

586
00:31:59,000 --> 00:32:01,360
Speaker 1: these one of these things, um happen. And I know,

587
00:32:01,600 --> 00:32:03,400
Speaker 1: I mean so much. The reason why I have those

588
00:32:03,400 --> 00:32:05,920
Speaker 1: protocols because I've learned them from other black women who

589
00:32:06,200 --> 00:32:08,160
Speaker 1: were like, Okay, here's how you can deal with it,

590
00:32:08,240 --> 00:32:11,160
Speaker 1: or here's you know when I step away, and um, yeah,

591
00:32:11,200 --> 00:32:14,560
Speaker 1: I mean that's the insidiousness of white supremacy, right, is

592
00:32:14,600 --> 00:32:16,760
Speaker 1: that the onus is on those of us that are

593
00:32:16,880 --> 00:32:22,240
Speaker 1: under its boot too create situations or to create systems

594
00:32:22,360 --> 00:32:26,680
Speaker 1: just to help us survive, and our white counterparts just

595
00:32:26,840 --> 00:32:30,200
Speaker 1: don't have to deal with that. They do not have

596
00:32:30,320 --> 00:32:34,600
Speaker 1: to reckon with the possibility of simply speaking your truth,

597
00:32:35,000 --> 00:32:38,080
Speaker 1: meaning you're going to have to deal with a whole

598
00:32:38,200 --> 00:32:41,040
Speaker 1: list of stuff that have nothing to do with your

599
00:32:41,080 --> 00:32:46,240
Speaker 1: initial um, you know, purpose for interacting online, and you know,

600
00:32:46,360 --> 00:32:48,720
Speaker 1: we do a lot of our work in digital spaces,

601
00:32:48,760 --> 00:32:50,800
Speaker 1: so it's not a place that I can step away from.

602
00:32:50,880 --> 00:32:53,120
Speaker 1: I also, you know, center a lot of my work

603
00:32:53,120 --> 00:32:56,160
Speaker 1: around direct giving, and I move a lot of money directly,

604
00:32:56,280 --> 00:32:59,480
Speaker 1: especially to black women and fems um through social media.

605
00:32:59,560 --> 00:33:01,720
Speaker 1: So from it's it's not a place that I'm really

606
00:33:01,720 --> 00:33:05,400
Speaker 1: willing to leave because the resources are there and um

607
00:33:05,440 --> 00:33:09,560
Speaker 1: and it works. So I don't have a position of

608
00:33:09,600 --> 00:33:11,880
Speaker 1: like I'm going to step away. I just have had

609
00:33:11,960 --> 00:33:14,320
Speaker 1: to take a position of protecting myself as best I can,

610
00:33:14,880 --> 00:33:17,280
Speaker 1: sharing that knowledge with other people, and then pushing with

611
00:33:17,280 --> 00:33:20,320
Speaker 1: folks like you to to create actual, real change in

612
00:33:20,400 --> 00:33:24,520
Speaker 1: digital spaces. I'm so we we need people like you. Yeah,

613
00:33:24,560 --> 00:33:28,680
Speaker 1: you've you've been individually responsible for funding so many black

614
00:33:28,680 --> 00:33:32,280
Speaker 1: women and fems, you know, direct direct aid to them

615
00:33:32,280 --> 00:33:34,880
Speaker 1: into their pockets. You are so important in this work,

616
00:33:34,880 --> 00:33:37,920
Speaker 1: and so I am glad that you have steps in

617
00:33:37,960 --> 00:33:41,120
Speaker 1: place where you can stay in this work because God

618
00:33:41,200 --> 00:33:43,880
Speaker 1: knows we need you. But it's hard, like we need

619
00:33:43,920 --> 00:33:46,400
Speaker 1: to acknowledge that you know, you're not a superwoman, You're

620
00:33:46,440 --> 00:33:48,560
Speaker 1: a person or a real person and that you know,

621
00:33:49,520 --> 00:33:52,840
Speaker 1: it sucks. Sometimes it's just really it sucks. Sometimes it

622
00:33:52,960 --> 00:33:56,000
Speaker 1: really does. Uh. You know. I started doing these TikTok

623
00:33:56,080 --> 00:33:59,320
Speaker 1: threads on Sunday on my Twitter, and I did the

624
00:33:59,320 --> 00:34:01,480
Speaker 1: first one because I really was just like, I need

625
00:34:01,520 --> 00:34:05,600
Speaker 1: to put something up that's fun. I need to put

626
00:34:05,680 --> 00:34:09,120
Speaker 1: something up that is not going to be a lightning

627
00:34:09,200 --> 00:34:12,160
Speaker 1: rod for anything, where I can just interact with people

628
00:34:12,800 --> 00:34:17,359
Speaker 1: in a fun way and bring some joy. It has

629
00:34:17,520 --> 00:34:22,040
Speaker 1: changed my entire countenance because now people look forward to

630
00:34:22,080 --> 00:34:26,880
Speaker 1: the threat every Sunday and um, it's injected in a

631
00:34:26,920 --> 00:34:30,080
Speaker 1: strange way, just a buffer around me. And I know

632
00:34:30,200 --> 00:34:32,360
Speaker 1: I have a little bit of time and digital space

633
00:34:32,400 --> 00:34:36,359
Speaker 1: every Sunday that's joyful and peaceful and fun um. And

634
00:34:36,400 --> 00:34:39,480
Speaker 1: I had lost that. I really had lost that feeling

635
00:34:39,640 --> 00:34:44,520
Speaker 1: of enjoying interacting with strangers um online, which you know

636
00:34:44,640 --> 00:34:47,960
Speaker 1: is such a big part of digital organizing. And I

637
00:34:48,000 --> 00:34:50,200
Speaker 1: needed to figure out a way to bring that back

638
00:34:50,239 --> 00:34:54,600
Speaker 1: into my platform and into the ways that I interact naturally.

639
00:34:55,080 --> 00:34:58,640
Speaker 1: And this ended up working. I had tried some other

640
00:34:58,680 --> 00:35:02,120
Speaker 1: things before that wereness successful, and this this seems to

641
00:35:02,120 --> 00:35:04,719
Speaker 1: be working quite well for that purpose. And it kind

642
00:35:04,719 --> 00:35:07,400
Speaker 1: of it. This sounds strange, but it's sort of like

643
00:35:07,440 --> 00:35:10,880
Speaker 1: if the temperature has been rising on the stove around

644
00:35:11,120 --> 00:35:14,920
Speaker 1: you know, negative reactions to me all week, Um that

645
00:35:15,080 --> 00:35:18,000
Speaker 1: Sunday thread it like it's like a throwing water on

646
00:35:18,000 --> 00:35:20,560
Speaker 1: a fire. It just puts it out completely. So I

647
00:35:20,640 --> 00:35:23,640
Speaker 1: sort of have a reset every week now because now

648
00:35:23,680 --> 00:35:26,320
Speaker 1: it looks silly that you're like arguing and someone's mentions

649
00:35:26,320 --> 00:35:30,120
Speaker 1: when people are like talking about dogs or like you

650
00:35:30,200 --> 00:35:33,360
Speaker 1: seem weird. So um yeah, I mean those are just

651
00:35:33,440 --> 00:35:35,600
Speaker 1: like little tricks that I've started to pick up just

652
00:35:35,640 --> 00:35:37,800
Speaker 1: to kind of be like, Okay, how can I continue

653
00:35:37,800 --> 00:35:41,640
Speaker 1: to exist in this space and not have it, um

654
00:35:41,800 --> 00:35:44,440
Speaker 1: be so toxic to me that I have to like

655
00:35:44,920 --> 00:35:47,480
Speaker 1: build all of these different systems And that this trick

656
00:35:47,520 --> 00:35:50,160
Speaker 1: has seemed to work so far. I'm hoping it will

657
00:35:50,200 --> 00:35:53,120
Speaker 1: continue because it's been really nice to be able to

658
00:35:53,160 --> 00:35:56,080
Speaker 1: bring that that part of digital interaction back in a

659
00:35:56,120 --> 00:35:59,160
Speaker 1: safe way. That's a great tip, I hope people out

660
00:35:59,160 --> 00:36:03,240
Speaker 1: there if I'm going to use it, that's a great tip. Um.

661
00:36:03,320 --> 00:36:05,759
Speaker 1: And again, it sucks that you have to do these things,

662
00:36:05,760 --> 00:36:07,560
Speaker 1: but I'm happy that you have systems in place that

663
00:36:07,680 --> 00:36:11,040
Speaker 1: just protect your health protect your wellness and continue to

664
00:36:11,040 --> 00:36:13,680
Speaker 1: give you that outlet to to do that community building

665
00:36:13,760 --> 00:36:16,000
Speaker 1: and engaging that I know that you're so good at

666
00:36:16,040 --> 00:36:19,120
Speaker 1: and that you love so much. So I'm thankful for that, Leslie.

667
00:36:19,160 --> 00:36:21,959
Speaker 1: Where can folks keep up with you? Online? You're doing

668
00:36:22,200 --> 00:36:24,640
Speaker 1: amazing stuff all over the Internet. Where can folks keep

669
00:36:24,680 --> 00:36:27,080
Speaker 1: up with you? You can just find me Leslie Mac

670
00:36:27,280 --> 00:36:29,920
Speaker 1: m a C. You can search that. That's my handle

671
00:36:30,000 --> 00:36:33,000
Speaker 1: on Twitter. If you just search it in Google, you'll

672
00:36:33,040 --> 00:36:36,080
Speaker 1: see my all the things Facebook and UM my website

673
00:36:36,160 --> 00:36:39,200
Speaker 1: Leslie mac dot com. You can find me there as well. Yeah,

674
00:36:39,280 --> 00:36:40,799
Speaker 1: I I want to I just want to thank you

675
00:36:40,840 --> 00:36:44,560
Speaker 1: to Bridget for for UM calling this UH extra episode,

676
00:36:44,760 --> 00:36:46,719
Speaker 1: and and thank you for all of your podcast but

677
00:36:46,840 --> 00:36:49,879
Speaker 1: especially for this UM series you've been doing around disinformation,

678
00:36:49,920 --> 00:36:52,680
Speaker 1: because I think it's really UM allowed a lot of

679
00:36:52,680 --> 00:36:55,719
Speaker 1: folks to put into context the long UM you know,

680
00:36:55,840 --> 00:36:59,960
Speaker 1: trail of this work against disinformation. You know, we've wanted

681
00:37:00,239 --> 00:37:02,360
Speaker 1: it in this election cycle in a way that I

682
00:37:02,360 --> 00:37:05,000
Speaker 1: think has woken people up to the realities and dangers

683
00:37:05,040 --> 00:37:07,680
Speaker 1: of it. But it's really important to put it into

684
00:37:07,680 --> 00:37:11,960
Speaker 1: the context that we've been screaming about this for almost

685
00:37:12,000 --> 00:37:16,799
Speaker 1: a decade, more than a decade. And so yeah, I mean,

686
00:37:17,080 --> 00:37:20,520
Speaker 1: y'all could have just listened to women from the first place,

687
00:37:21,040 --> 00:37:23,640
Speaker 1: and you can start doing that now, and we can

688
00:37:23,680 --> 00:37:29,080
Speaker 1: avoid things like forty and Marjorie Taylor Green and all

689
00:37:29,160 --> 00:37:32,520
Speaker 1: the other you know, horrible things that have stemmed from

690
00:37:32,680 --> 00:37:36,640
Speaker 1: digital spaces because frankly, somebody like MTG, the only way

691
00:37:36,640 --> 00:37:40,640
Speaker 1: that they've built a platform is through digital space. Oh absolutely,

692
00:37:40,640 --> 00:37:43,200
Speaker 1: I was just talking about this. How the problem really

693
00:37:43,360 --> 00:37:45,520
Speaker 1: is is that we have for people like her, we

694
00:37:45,600 --> 00:37:49,200
Speaker 1: have made it politically advantageous to do things like this online.

695
00:37:49,200 --> 00:37:51,200
Speaker 1: It's it's not you know, it's not like, oh she

696
00:37:51,400 --> 00:37:54,120
Speaker 1: sounds wild, like get her out of here. It's oh

697
00:37:54,239 --> 00:37:59,600
Speaker 1: she sounds wild, Amplify her, amplify her. Yes, um and

698
00:37:59,800 --> 00:38:02,200
Speaker 1: you know, uh, as Bridget is closed, we both work

699
00:38:02,239 --> 00:38:03,839
Speaker 1: a ultra violet. But you know, one of the great

700
00:38:03,880 --> 00:38:05,680
Speaker 1: things about the Media Guide is that it really has

701
00:38:05,760 --> 00:38:11,839
Speaker 1: specific um ways for people to not share disinformation. And

702
00:38:12,080 --> 00:38:15,080
Speaker 1: one of the biggest culprits in the media they share

703
00:38:15,160 --> 00:38:20,600
Speaker 1: disinformation inadvertently and deliberately UM in covering it. And it's

704
00:38:20,640 --> 00:38:23,919
Speaker 1: it's wild that they have not seen UM the light

705
00:38:24,000 --> 00:38:27,799
Speaker 1: and understood their role in in spreading it, because if

706
00:38:27,800 --> 00:38:31,720
Speaker 1: you're considered fake news quote unquote by by a portion

707
00:38:31,760 --> 00:38:34,600
Speaker 1: of the population, and then you write, you report on

708
00:38:34,680 --> 00:38:38,520
Speaker 1: disinformation and in a specific way, you legitimize it, really

709
00:38:38,520 --> 00:38:45,040
Speaker 1: specifically with a specific audience. And I I don't know

710
00:38:45,080 --> 00:38:47,120
Speaker 1: what the answer is, but I'll say this, when I

711
00:38:47,120 --> 00:38:49,440
Speaker 1: was in journalism school, clearly I did not become a

712
00:38:49,520 --> 00:38:52,160
Speaker 1: journalist because I actually saw when when I was in

713
00:38:52,239 --> 00:38:54,600
Speaker 1: j school, I saw this as the future of journalism

714
00:38:54,600 --> 00:38:57,920
Speaker 1: and it really scared me. Um. I went to Northwest

715
00:38:58,000 --> 00:39:00,640
Speaker 1: University and this isn't the you know, the mids late nineties,

716
00:39:00,680 --> 00:39:03,680
Speaker 1: and I really I remember saying to my mom, I

717
00:39:03,719 --> 00:39:06,680
Speaker 1: can't be in this industry. This, this the track that

718
00:39:06,760 --> 00:39:10,480
Speaker 1: this is on is leading in a really dangerous and

719
00:39:10,560 --> 00:39:13,040
Speaker 1: scary place. And I don't think it's something that I

720
00:39:13,080 --> 00:39:15,399
Speaker 1: could do for my my career. I don't think it's

721
00:39:15,400 --> 00:39:17,440
Speaker 1: something I could do. She was not thrilled. It was

722
00:39:17,480 --> 00:39:22,200
Speaker 1: a lot of money anyways, Um, but yeah, I just remember,

723
00:39:22,200 --> 00:39:24,239
Speaker 1: and it's it's silly now. I talked about this all

724
00:39:24,239 --> 00:39:26,080
Speaker 1: the time and certainly age myself. But you know, you

725
00:39:26,120 --> 00:39:27,799
Speaker 1: go to the computer lab to write your you know,

726
00:39:27,840 --> 00:39:30,520
Speaker 1: your stories and stuff for the paper, and um, you know,

727
00:39:30,520 --> 00:39:33,279
Speaker 1: people would bring magnets into the computer lab to like

728
00:39:33,520 --> 00:39:37,720
Speaker 1: swipe people's um floppy disks so that their stories couldn't

729
00:39:37,719 --> 00:39:39,279
Speaker 1: get it on time, so that they could get the

730
00:39:39,520 --> 00:39:42,120
Speaker 1: byline the next day. And like I remember just being

731
00:39:42,160 --> 00:39:45,200
Speaker 1: like this is these are these will be my colleagues. Yeah,

732
00:39:45,480 --> 00:39:47,879
Speaker 1: I this is not It's not gonna be for me.

733
00:39:48,320 --> 00:39:52,080
Speaker 1: And UM, it's been while sitting back outside of journalism

734
00:39:52,120 --> 00:39:54,560
Speaker 1: and watching you know, everything that I felt as a

735
00:39:54,640 --> 00:39:58,920
Speaker 1: nineteen year old um come to pass, every every single thing,

736
00:39:58,960 --> 00:40:03,960
Speaker 1: I was like, this is going really itself. Um, the

737
00:40:04,080 --> 00:40:08,040
Speaker 1: idea of ethics were so loosey goosey and not at

738
00:40:08,080 --> 00:40:11,000
Speaker 1: all um ethical, and I just was like, this is

739
00:40:11,200 --> 00:40:13,920
Speaker 1: this is the one of the best jealous of schools

740
00:40:13,920 --> 00:40:17,080
Speaker 1: in the country, and these are the people they've matriculated,

741
00:40:17,120 --> 00:40:19,760
Speaker 1: and this is the attitude that they have towards women,

742
00:40:19,840 --> 00:40:25,960
Speaker 1: towards black people, towards marginalized spokes, towards poor people. I just, yeah,

743
00:40:26,320 --> 00:40:28,719
Speaker 1: the reckoning has been long coming, and I think that

744
00:40:28,760 --> 00:40:33,239
Speaker 1: the digital space has only added to um to that absolutely,

745
00:40:33,320 --> 00:40:34,960
Speaker 1: And I think we see it in the way that

746
00:40:35,120 --> 00:40:38,000
Speaker 1: folks are reporting about the AOC situation. I was really

747
00:40:38,000 --> 00:40:40,080
Speaker 1: disgusted to see it sort of framed as almost like

748
00:40:40,440 --> 00:40:43,760
Speaker 1: a cat fight or a spat between two female members

749
00:40:43,760 --> 00:40:48,920
Speaker 1: of Congress as opposed to a wider coordinated disinformation campaign

750
00:40:49,040 --> 00:40:51,640
Speaker 1: that AOC is at the heart of. Like this is

751
00:40:51,640 --> 00:40:54,839
Speaker 1: not two women beef and over a man or something, right,

752
00:40:54,840 --> 00:40:58,040
Speaker 1: like this is someone So this is people making up cordon,

753
00:40:58,280 --> 00:41:00,440
Speaker 1: making up lies about someone in a corn needed way

754
00:41:00,520 --> 00:41:03,360
Speaker 1: to smear them for for sharing their story. I was

755
00:41:03,400 --> 00:41:05,480
Speaker 1: really dismade to see it kind of framed as like

756
00:41:05,520 --> 00:41:08,240
Speaker 1: a she said, she said kind of thing, as opposed

757
00:41:08,280 --> 00:41:12,879
Speaker 1: to disinformation. But that becomes a question, right, why did

758
00:41:13,600 --> 00:41:17,360
Speaker 1: anybody feel the need to discount AOC's account of what

759
00:41:17,440 --> 00:41:22,200
Speaker 1: happened to her personally? That's the ultimate question, is why

760
00:41:22,320 --> 00:41:25,480
Speaker 1: was that something you felt you needed to do. And

761
00:41:25,520 --> 00:41:27,880
Speaker 1: at the heart of that is that is that we

762
00:41:27,960 --> 00:41:30,759
Speaker 1: go back to silence saying of women of color and

763
00:41:30,920 --> 00:41:35,160
Speaker 1: especially progressive, radical women of color, And that's the ultimate goal,

764
00:41:35,440 --> 00:41:39,840
Speaker 1: and people will pay any price to do that. So true,

765
00:41:39,880 --> 00:41:42,200
Speaker 1: and I think, like, what do you think it tell

766
00:41:42,360 --> 00:41:46,120
Speaker 1: like people who are survivors of abuse sexual violence when

767
00:41:46,160 --> 00:41:49,120
Speaker 1: they see the way that the wagon circled to smear

768
00:41:49,239 --> 00:41:51,680
Speaker 1: AOC for sharing her story. What do you think that

769
00:41:51,920 --> 00:41:54,920
Speaker 1: the responses, you know, like someone who would would speak

770
00:41:54,960 --> 00:41:57,279
Speaker 1: up but sees what happened to AOC, What do you

771
00:41:57,280 --> 00:41:58,920
Speaker 1: think that? What do you think that's going to do

772
00:41:58,960 --> 00:42:02,879
Speaker 1: to them? You know, it's going to further tell them

773
00:42:02,920 --> 00:42:05,719
Speaker 1: that they shouldn't speak out. It's going to let them

774
00:42:05,719 --> 00:42:09,319
Speaker 1: know that there will be negative consequences to them speaking out.

775
00:42:09,360 --> 00:42:12,080
Speaker 1: And Um, I think it's it's why it's so important

776
00:42:12,080 --> 00:42:15,960
Speaker 1: for us to show support for AOC and for all survivors,

777
00:42:16,000 --> 00:42:20,360
Speaker 1: because there's a survivor listening right now that's contemplating and

778
00:42:20,480 --> 00:42:24,000
Speaker 1: she's at a crossroads of speaking her truth or burying

779
00:42:24,040 --> 00:42:26,719
Speaker 1: it and having to deal with it in ten, fifteen,

780
00:42:27,040 --> 00:42:31,000
Speaker 1: twenty years. And the more that we can show support

781
00:42:31,080 --> 00:42:34,160
Speaker 1: for survivors and for moments like this where AOC is

782
00:42:34,200 --> 00:42:38,800
Speaker 1: so transparent, not only in um speaking about her experience

783
00:42:38,840 --> 00:42:42,680
Speaker 1: as a sexual assault survivor, but also linking the trauma

784
00:42:42,760 --> 00:42:46,680
Speaker 1: of that moment to January six, where she was also

785
00:42:47,080 --> 00:42:51,120
Speaker 1: feeling under attack. And you know, Um, I'm just put

786
00:42:51,160 --> 00:42:53,920
Speaker 1: in my you know, Katie Porter, it was interesting listening

787
00:42:53,960 --> 00:42:57,160
Speaker 1: to AOC's account and then Katie talking about it on

788
00:42:57,160 --> 00:43:00,600
Speaker 1: on Laurence O'donald Show because Katie mentioned some details that

789
00:43:00,600 --> 00:43:04,600
Speaker 1: that Alexandria didn't share, and she said, you know, uh

790
00:43:04,760 --> 00:43:06,640
Speaker 1: she she said to AOC, you know, I'm a mom.

791
00:43:06,760 --> 00:43:10,080
Speaker 1: I've got everything you know covered here. Don't worry. I'm calm.

792
00:43:10,120 --> 00:43:12,440
Speaker 1: And AOC looked at her and said, I hope I

793
00:43:12,480 --> 00:43:15,720
Speaker 1: get to be a mom. And I just I want

794
00:43:15,760 --> 00:43:20,400
Speaker 1: people to hear that this is a young woman who

795
00:43:20,480 --> 00:43:27,960
Speaker 1: has a huge platform. She takes it very seriously. She

796
00:43:28,040 --> 00:43:32,239
Speaker 1: does diligent and amazing work, but she's still a young

797
00:43:32,320 --> 00:43:35,279
Speaker 1: woman who shouldn't be made to feel like this just

798
00:43:35,360 --> 00:43:39,480
Speaker 1: for doing her job. And I I don't I don't

799
00:43:39,560 --> 00:43:42,239
Speaker 1: know what it's going to take. And I think that's

800
00:43:42,239 --> 00:43:44,880
Speaker 1: what's really been scaring me the most in this last

801
00:43:45,040 --> 00:43:49,000
Speaker 1: you know, a few years, is that I have a

802
00:43:49,000 --> 00:43:52,319
Speaker 1: a sinking suspicion that it's going to take something so

803
00:43:53,960 --> 00:43:59,800
Speaker 1: violent that um yeah, I just I'm just really actually

804
00:44:00,120 --> 00:44:02,839
Speaker 1: afraid for the physical safety of so many of these

805
00:44:03,000 --> 00:44:06,879
Speaker 1: UM elected officials right now. Um, And I don't know

806
00:44:07,640 --> 00:44:10,560
Speaker 1: what to do with that fear. I can only imagine

807
00:44:10,640 --> 00:44:15,040
Speaker 1: how they are all feeling. Um. This has been just

808
00:44:15,080 --> 00:44:17,120
Speaker 1: like like I'm reaching out to you know my son

809
00:44:17,239 --> 00:44:20,400
Speaker 1: Louis Crew Like, what, who's watching Corey? Like, I'm obsessed

810
00:44:20,440 --> 00:44:25,759
Speaker 1: about it. Literally, I I find myself just constantly being concerned. UM.

811
00:44:25,840 --> 00:44:28,080
Speaker 1: Some of them I don't worry about because like Ianna,

812
00:44:28,280 --> 00:44:32,520
Speaker 1: I know she's she's she's got a very strong, uh

813
00:44:32,560 --> 00:44:35,720
Speaker 1: you know, protective system around her. But I just worry.

814
00:44:35,800 --> 00:44:41,239
Speaker 1: I just worry UM. As we're watching UM, continuing to

815
00:44:41,360 --> 00:44:46,440
Speaker 1: watch UM, these conspiracy theorists and UM and white supremacists

816
00:44:46,560 --> 00:44:49,320
Speaker 1: continued to take up space, continue to not be challenged.

817
00:44:50,000 --> 00:44:52,640
Speaker 1: H It was really disturbing to watch the hearing yesterday.

818
00:44:52,719 --> 00:44:57,800
Speaker 1: I was so triggered to hear UM the gop UM representatives,

819
00:44:57,840 --> 00:45:00,000
Speaker 1: one after the other get up and make a quip

820
00:45:00,000 --> 00:45:07,360
Speaker 1: occasion for UM mark MTGS behavior and these false equivalences

821
00:45:07,400 --> 00:45:10,160
Speaker 1: that they kept throwing up. But I was really bullied

822
00:45:10,160 --> 00:45:12,640
Speaker 1: by the Democrats that got up and and really were

823
00:45:12,719 --> 00:45:17,200
Speaker 1: specific about the harms that were done, about who these

824
00:45:17,239 --> 00:45:20,719
Speaker 1: were targeted against, and why we can't stand for it

825
00:45:20,760 --> 00:45:23,680
Speaker 1: any longer. I have not heard the Democrats speak in

826
00:45:23,840 --> 00:45:28,319
Speaker 1: such large collective voice about this yet, and and it's

827
00:45:28,400 --> 00:45:32,600
Speaker 1: sad that it took someone UM like Marjorie Taylor Green

828
00:45:32,719 --> 00:45:35,000
Speaker 1: to get them to do it, because had they been

829
00:45:35,040 --> 00:45:38,040
Speaker 1: doing this all along, perhaps there wouldn't be a Marjorie

830
00:45:38,040 --> 00:45:41,799
Speaker 1: Tailor Green in Congress right now. I'm hopeful that in

831
00:45:41,800 --> 00:45:45,680
Speaker 1: this moment people can see this is this is real stuff,

832
00:45:45,920 --> 00:45:52,600
Speaker 1: really serious and has variable consequences. Absolutely, and and um,

833
00:45:52,640 --> 00:45:55,520
Speaker 1: it needs to be said that these moments always come

834
00:45:55,560 --> 00:46:02,160
Speaker 1: at the expense of women of color. And I think that, um,

835
00:46:02,480 --> 00:46:06,520
Speaker 1: it plays into our disposability and in this notion that

836
00:46:06,560 --> 00:46:11,080
Speaker 1: what we can just take it, and this notion that um,

837
00:46:11,120 --> 00:46:15,560
Speaker 1: we're really just here to serve as an example for

838
00:46:15,600 --> 00:46:20,279
Speaker 1: other people to to learn from. Um. And that's a

839
00:46:20,320 --> 00:46:23,439
Speaker 1: hard reality that we that we actually live with every

840
00:46:23,480 --> 00:46:29,600
Speaker 1: single day, that our lives themselves are an example. Um. Uh,

841
00:46:29,680 --> 00:46:31,880
Speaker 1: we really just want to live. I say this all

842
00:46:31,920 --> 00:46:34,200
Speaker 1: the time, like I don't know an organizer that would

843
00:46:34,200 --> 00:46:37,080
Speaker 1: not be rather, that would not rather be doing something else.

844
00:46:37,640 --> 00:46:40,319
Speaker 1: We are organizers because we are called and because we

845
00:46:40,400 --> 00:46:43,000
Speaker 1: have to be. Um. I'd love to just go to

846
00:46:43,239 --> 00:46:46,200
Speaker 1: you know, Paris, and and go to pastry school and

847
00:46:46,200 --> 00:46:51,000
Speaker 1: and uh bake all day if I had a choice. Um,

848
00:46:51,040 --> 00:46:53,080
Speaker 1: but that's not the world that I live in, and

849
00:46:53,200 --> 00:46:56,040
Speaker 1: it demands more of me because I want my nieces

850
00:46:56,080 --> 00:46:58,560
Speaker 1: to have a better world. And I want, uh, you know,

851
00:46:58,600 --> 00:47:01,160
Speaker 1: my nephews to not be ray in a world that

852
00:47:01,200 --> 00:47:05,520
Speaker 1: would have them become misogynists. And I feel called to

853
00:47:05,600 --> 00:47:11,680
Speaker 1: support people that are in need. Um, and so the

854
00:47:11,719 --> 00:47:14,880
Speaker 1: ways in which we are dehumanized in digital spaces that

855
00:47:14,920 --> 00:47:18,400
Speaker 1: we become you know, these two dimensional um you know,

856
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Speaker 1: flattened out personalities in ways that our white counterparts are

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Speaker 1: always seen as three dimensional. It's always about the nuance

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Speaker 1: of their experience, and for us everything is black and white.

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Speaker 1: And I it's it's a while to um watch um.

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Speaker 1: Your sisters just become a lesson for people to learn

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Speaker 1: their pain, be a lesson for people to learn from.

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00:47:43,760 --> 00:47:47,399
Speaker 1: And I want that to stop as well. I want

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00:47:47,440 --> 00:47:49,920
Speaker 1: better for us all but I almost have tears in

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00:47:49,920 --> 00:47:51,960
Speaker 1: my head. I want better for us. I want you

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00:47:52,000 --> 00:47:56,520
Speaker 1: to be able to go to pastry school and not

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00:47:56,520 --> 00:47:58,799
Speaker 1: not feel like you have to be in this like

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Speaker 1: in this fight that latins us so cruelly. I want.

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Speaker 1: I want better for all of us. Names got a

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Speaker 1: story about an interesting thing in tech, or just want

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Speaker 1: to say hi, You can reach us at Hello at

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00:48:16,440 --> 00:48:18,840
Speaker 1: tang Godi dot com. You can also find transcripts for

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Speaker 1: today's episode at tangdi dot com. There Are No Girls

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00:48:21,560 --> 00:48:23,920
Speaker 1: on the Internet was created by me Bridget Tod. It's

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00:48:23,920 --> 00:48:27,200
Speaker 1: a production of iHeart Radio and Unboss creative Jonathan Strickland

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00:48:27,200 --> 00:48:29,920
Speaker 1: as our executive producer. Terry Harrison is our producer and

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00:48:30,000 --> 00:48:33,719
Speaker 1: sound engineer. Michael Amato is our contributing producer. I'm your host,

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00:48:33,760 --> 00:48:36,560
Speaker 1: Bridget Todd. If you want to help us grow, rate

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00:48:36,600 --> 00:48:39,719
Speaker 1: and review us on Apple Podcasts. For more podcasts from

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00:48:39,719 --> 00:48:42,320
Speaker 1: iHeart Radio, check out the iHeart Radio app, Apple podcast,

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00:48:42,440 --> 00:48:43,719
Speaker 1: or wherever you get your podcasts.