1 00:00:00,200 --> 00:00:03,920 Speaker 1: Welcome to Monster DC Sniper, a production of I Heart 2 00:00:04,000 --> 00:00:07,640 Speaker 1: Radio and Tenderfoot TV. The views and opinions expressed in 3 00:00:07,640 --> 00:00:10,720 Speaker 1: this podcast are solely those of the podcast author or 4 00:00:10,760 --> 00:00:14,200 Speaker 1: individuals participating in the podcast, and do not represent those 5 00:00:14,200 --> 00:00:18,479 Speaker 1: of I Heart Media, Tenderfoot TV, or their employees. Listener 6 00:00:18,520 --> 00:00:25,120 Speaker 1: discretion is advised. Alright, the execution of John Alan Mohammed 7 00:00:25,680 --> 00:00:27,920 Speaker 1: has been carried out under the laws of the Commonwealth 8 00:00:27,960 --> 00:00:33,199 Speaker 1: of Virginia. Death was pronounced at nine eleven PM eleven. 9 00:00:33,240 --> 00:00:37,920 Speaker 1: There were no complications. Mr Mohammed was asked if he 10 00:00:37,960 --> 00:00:41,440 Speaker 1: wished to make a last statement. He did not acknowledge 11 00:00:41,440 --> 00:00:48,160 Speaker 1: this or make any statement whatsoever. Statement it was certainly 12 00:00:48,880 --> 00:00:53,240 Speaker 1: a moment of solace for a number of the victims families, 13 00:00:53,400 --> 00:00:57,040 Speaker 1: and it ended the case as far as he was concerned. 14 00:00:57,080 --> 00:00:59,920 Speaker 1: But again, we never really heard from him. We never 15 00:01:00,040 --> 00:01:02,960 Speaker 1: really got a sense of anything from Mohammed. It sort 16 00:01:03,000 --> 00:01:07,600 Speaker 1: of all came to pass rather quietly. In Malvo's case, 17 00:01:08,160 --> 00:01:11,880 Speaker 1: he is sitting in Red Onion Prison in Virginia. It's 18 00:01:11,920 --> 00:01:16,200 Speaker 1: one of the nation's supermax is. It's a very stark facility. 19 00:01:16,560 --> 00:01:19,240 Speaker 1: He's spending twenty three hours a day in a very 20 00:01:19,240 --> 00:01:24,039 Speaker 1: small cell. He has no physical interaction with any other inmates. Yeah, 21 00:01:24,040 --> 00:01:25,880 Speaker 1: he was sent down there, and the problem was he 22 00:01:25,959 --> 00:01:29,720 Speaker 1: was isolated for years. He's not in general population because 23 00:01:29,800 --> 00:01:33,760 Speaker 1: of notoriety. Someone could try to make a name from themselves. Obviously, 24 00:01:33,760 --> 00:01:35,680 Speaker 1: our goal is to do the best we can for 25 00:01:35,760 --> 00:01:37,600 Speaker 1: him and what he wants, and you know what he wants. 26 00:01:37,640 --> 00:01:40,480 Speaker 1: He wants to be out of prison and be able 27 00:01:40,520 --> 00:01:43,720 Speaker 1: to live his life. I had dreamed at one point 28 00:01:44,200 --> 00:01:48,760 Speaker 1: I wanted to do great breaks. This is not what 29 00:01:49,080 --> 00:01:52,800 Speaker 1: I wanted for myself. We're gonna have him soon back 30 00:01:52,840 --> 00:01:55,600 Speaker 1: to us because the rulings of the Supreme Court United States. 31 00:01:56,320 --> 00:01:59,400 Speaker 1: After two separate trials, he was twice sentenced to life 32 00:01:59,440 --> 00:02:02,040 Speaker 1: without par role. But then came a U. S. Supreme 33 00:02:02,080 --> 00:02:06,960 Speaker 1: Court decision declaring life without parole sentences for juveniles unconstitutional, 34 00:02:07,320 --> 00:02:09,640 Speaker 1: and just last year the court said that ruling should 35 00:02:09,680 --> 00:02:13,800 Speaker 1: apply retroactively to cases on appeal. Today, a federal judge 36 00:02:13,800 --> 00:02:17,160 Speaker 1: in Virginia said, because of those two rulings, Malvo must 37 00:02:17,160 --> 00:02:22,519 Speaker 1: get new sentencing hearings. Basically, it's unconstitutional to automatically put 38 00:02:22,520 --> 00:02:25,000 Speaker 1: a juvenile now in jail for the rest of his 39 00:02:25,040 --> 00:02:29,800 Speaker 1: lives without parole. The issue here is not guilt. Juries 40 00:02:29,840 --> 00:02:31,760 Speaker 1: will not be weighing in on whether or not he 41 00:02:31,840 --> 00:02:35,519 Speaker 1: is responsible for the crimes. These would be resentencings that 42 00:02:35,720 --> 00:02:40,600 Speaker 1: would revisit the time that he would spend behind bars. 43 00:02:41,480 --> 00:02:44,840 Speaker 1: A jury can recommend, or a judge can can impose 44 00:02:44,919 --> 00:02:47,919 Speaker 1: a sense other than a mandatory life sense. They could 45 00:02:47,960 --> 00:02:50,600 Speaker 1: give him something less, and maybe he'll be able to 46 00:02:50,600 --> 00:02:52,280 Speaker 1: get out of jail at some point in time in 47 00:02:52,320 --> 00:02:54,600 Speaker 1: his life, to at least be able to spend the 48 00:02:54,600 --> 00:02:58,480 Speaker 1: rest of his life out of jail. Malvo sentences being 49 00:02:58,560 --> 00:03:02,560 Speaker 1: challenged and will be resentenced at some point, and it 50 00:03:02,600 --> 00:03:07,880 Speaker 1: won't be life without parole, which means someday he will 51 00:03:07,919 --> 00:03:13,359 Speaker 1: walk the streets again. And I'm convinced that's going to happen. 52 00:03:14,760 --> 00:03:18,040 Speaker 1: There is a ruthless person on the loose. What un 53 00:03:18,120 --> 00:03:21,440 Speaker 1: nerves this community the most is the randomness of the murders, 54 00:03:22,240 --> 00:03:26,280 Speaker 1: ordinary people doing ordinary things. They killed the five people 55 00:03:26,280 --> 00:03:29,240 Speaker 1: in one day and then went on the rampage for 56 00:03:29,320 --> 00:03:32,320 Speaker 1: the next month. It is quite a mystery. The police 57 00:03:32,320 --> 00:03:34,600 Speaker 1: say they have never had a crime quite like this. 58 00:03:35,080 --> 00:03:37,880 Speaker 1: Be careful, these guys are using weapons that are gonna 59 00:03:37,920 --> 00:03:43,839 Speaker 1: go right straight through our bulletproof vest. From My Heart 60 00:03:43,920 --> 00:03:48,920 Speaker 1: Radio and Tenderfoot TV. This is Monster d C Sniper. 61 00:03:53,280 --> 00:03:56,880 Speaker 1: Since the time of Lee Boyd Malbow's incarceration, the laws 62 00:03:56,920 --> 00:04:01,680 Speaker 1: about sentencing miners have shifted dramatically, so much so that 63 00:04:01,760 --> 00:04:05,480 Speaker 1: a pathway now exists for Malvo to be granted parole 64 00:04:05,920 --> 00:04:09,880 Speaker 1: and potentially walk the streets again. We're going to quickly 65 00:04:09,920 --> 00:04:13,440 Speaker 1: explain the cases which led to this point. It all 66 00:04:13,480 --> 00:04:16,240 Speaker 1: started with a landmarked Supreme Court case in two thousand 67 00:04:16,279 --> 00:04:19,560 Speaker 1: five which rule that juvenile offenders could not be sentenced 68 00:04:19,560 --> 00:04:24,080 Speaker 1: to death. Next, in two thousand twelve, the Supreme Court 69 00:04:24,160 --> 00:04:27,880 Speaker 1: ruled in the case Miller versus Alabama that juvenile offenders 70 00:04:27,880 --> 00:04:31,440 Speaker 1: couldn't be given mandatory minimum sentences of life without the 71 00:04:31,480 --> 00:04:36,600 Speaker 1: possibility of parole. After that ruling, Malvo's attorney submitted a 72 00:04:36,640 --> 00:04:40,760 Speaker 1: petition to Virginia and Maryland to vacate his life sentences. 73 00:04:41,160 --> 00:04:44,200 Speaker 1: They argued that because Malvo was sentenced to life without 74 00:04:44,240 --> 00:04:48,359 Speaker 1: parole with no lower penalties available to the jury, his 75 00:04:48,440 --> 00:04:55,240 Speaker 1: sentencing was no longer constitutionally valid, but the petitions were denied. However, 76 00:04:55,720 --> 00:04:59,400 Speaker 1: in two thousand sixteen, the Supreme Court weighed in again 77 00:04:59,560 --> 00:05:04,599 Speaker 1: on instances for minors Montgomery the Louisiana was a case. 78 00:05:05,120 --> 00:05:08,479 Speaker 1: In its language noted that not only does there have 79 00:05:08,520 --> 00:05:11,599 Speaker 1: to be an alternative to a sentence of life without 80 00:05:11,640 --> 00:05:16,719 Speaker 1: parole for a juvenile sentencing, the judge has to exercise 81 00:05:16,800 --> 00:05:19,960 Speaker 1: some kind of discretion to determine whether or not the 82 00:05:20,040 --> 00:05:23,880 Speaker 1: juvenile is incorrigible and whether or not that juvenile can 83 00:05:23,960 --> 00:05:28,599 Speaker 1: eventually be reformed. This is Mark Petrovich, one of Malvo's 84 00:05:28,600 --> 00:05:32,360 Speaker 1: attorneys in Virginia. He says, based on the Supreme Courts 85 00:05:32,360 --> 00:05:36,320 Speaker 1: two thousand sixteen ruling, Malvo had new grounds to appeal 86 00:05:36,360 --> 00:05:40,960 Speaker 1: his sentences, and this time his appeal made it all 87 00:05:41,000 --> 00:05:44,120 Speaker 1: the way up to the Supreme Court of the United States. 88 00:05:45,000 --> 00:05:47,039 Speaker 1: The goal is going to be too if we can 89 00:05:47,600 --> 00:05:50,280 Speaker 1: reduce the sentence from a life in prison without parole, 90 00:05:50,720 --> 00:05:52,839 Speaker 1: you want to go down any anywhere from there. You 91 00:05:52,839 --> 00:05:55,039 Speaker 1: want to go down maybe for an opportunity for parole, 92 00:05:55,120 --> 00:05:59,920 Speaker 1: then maybe a release when he's in the sixties, whatever 93 00:06:00,040 --> 00:06:02,600 Speaker 1: can be obtained. He's going to want to have some 94 00:06:03,240 --> 00:06:06,919 Speaker 1: time of freedom. How that I'll play out. We have 95 00:06:07,000 --> 00:06:11,760 Speaker 1: no idea. We asked Washington Post journalist Josh White what 96 00:06:11,920 --> 00:06:16,120 Speaker 1: he thought could happen. Could Melbo actually get the resentencing 97 00:06:16,200 --> 00:06:21,320 Speaker 1: he wanted. You know, certainly a jury in today's world, 98 00:06:21,480 --> 00:06:25,120 Speaker 1: all these years later, could look at him and evaluate 99 00:06:25,200 --> 00:06:28,200 Speaker 1: him and where he is today and come up with 100 00:06:28,360 --> 00:06:32,000 Speaker 1: a different outcome than they did before. It's unclear to 101 00:06:32,040 --> 00:06:34,400 Speaker 1: me that a jury would do that, given the nature 102 00:06:34,400 --> 00:06:36,679 Speaker 1: of the crimes and how many victims there were and 103 00:06:37,400 --> 00:06:41,320 Speaker 1: his own public statements about them. Juries are impossible to predict, 104 00:06:41,560 --> 00:06:46,080 Speaker 1: and how this would change anything is unclear. It's certainly 105 00:06:46,080 --> 00:06:48,599 Speaker 1: possible that he could get less time on one of 106 00:06:48,640 --> 00:06:51,599 Speaker 1: these cases, but there are many, many other cases that 107 00:06:51,720 --> 00:06:55,479 Speaker 1: still exists. I think the chances of him being released 108 00:06:55,480 --> 00:06:58,960 Speaker 1: are low, but it's why they go through these processes. 109 00:06:59,000 --> 00:07:02,239 Speaker 1: And you know, the the determination that a minor should 110 00:07:02,279 --> 00:07:06,440 Speaker 1: be given other possible outcomes than just life or death 111 00:07:06,880 --> 00:07:09,480 Speaker 1: is something that the courts have decided is important, and 112 00:07:10,080 --> 00:07:11,760 Speaker 1: you know that I think they'll carry that process out 113 00:07:11,800 --> 00:07:15,760 Speaker 1: as far as it needs to go. On October six, nineteen, 114 00:07:16,400 --> 00:07:20,880 Speaker 1: the Supreme Court heard Mathena versus Malvo. Here's a recording 115 00:07:20,920 --> 00:07:25,080 Speaker 1: from the hearing. Attorney Toby Heightens argued that Malvo's sentencing 116 00:07:25,600 --> 00:07:33,200 Speaker 1: must stand well. Your argument next In Mathena versus Malvo, 117 00:07:33,440 --> 00:07:37,240 Speaker 1: Mr Hyden's Mr. Chief Justice, and may it please the Court. 118 00:07:38,320 --> 00:07:43,400 Speaker 1: Fifteen years ago, Lee Malvo was tried, convicted, and sentenced 119 00:07:43,600 --> 00:07:47,680 Speaker 1: for his role in the DC sniper attacks. Almost a 120 00:07:47,720 --> 00:07:52,520 Speaker 1: decade later, Malvo sought federal habeas relief, relying exclusively on 121 00:07:52,600 --> 00:07:55,560 Speaker 1: the new rule announced by this Court in Miller versus Alabama. 122 00:07:56,240 --> 00:07:59,440 Speaker 1: But Miller's rule does not cover Malvo's case and the 123 00:07:59,480 --> 00:08:03,640 Speaker 1: lower core it's aired in holding otherwise among many other 124 00:08:03,720 --> 00:08:07,559 Speaker 1: legal matters, Heightens asserted that the ruling in Miller versus 125 00:08:07,600 --> 00:08:12,320 Speaker 1: Alabama applied only to mandatory sentences. He argued that the 126 00:08:12,400 --> 00:08:17,280 Speaker 1: Virginia jury hearing Malvo's case had two sentencing options, death 127 00:08:17,960 --> 00:08:21,720 Speaker 1: or life without parole, and send some of malvo sentences 128 00:08:21,760 --> 00:08:26,720 Speaker 1: were not mandatory. He certainly could not retroactively apply the 129 00:08:26,800 --> 00:08:32,520 Speaker 1: Miller ruling to undo those life sentences. One of Melvo's attorneys, 130 00:08:33,080 --> 00:08:38,400 Speaker 1: Danielle Spinelli, also spoke that day. Miller held that before 131 00:08:38,440 --> 00:08:42,040 Speaker 1: imposing life without parole on a juvenile, a sentencer must 132 00:08:42,120 --> 00:08:46,120 Speaker 1: consider how the characteristics of youth counsel against that sentence. 133 00:08:46,880 --> 00:08:52,080 Speaker 1: That individualized sentencing hearing, as Montgomery explained, effectuates the Eighth 134 00:08:52,120 --> 00:08:55,560 Speaker 1: Amendment rule that life without parole is an excessive sentence 135 00:08:55,600 --> 00:09:01,320 Speaker 1: from most juveniles, those who are not permanently incorrigible. Miller 136 00:09:01,440 --> 00:09:04,880 Speaker 1: is not limited to mandatory schemes where life without parole 137 00:09:05,040 --> 00:09:09,600 Speaker 1: is the only possible punishment. It invalidated those schemes because 138 00:09:09,640 --> 00:09:13,640 Speaker 1: they guarantee that courts won't consider whether youth warrants a 139 00:09:13,640 --> 00:09:18,320 Speaker 1: lower sentence, which creates an unacceptable risk of excessive punishment. 140 00:09:19,200 --> 00:09:22,400 Speaker 1: But when a court has the theoretical power to consider 141 00:09:22,400 --> 00:09:25,480 Speaker 1: a lower sentence but doesn't do so, which is what 142 00:09:25,520 --> 00:09:30,960 Speaker 1: happened here, it creates precisely the same risk. Spinelli suggested 143 00:09:31,000 --> 00:09:34,319 Speaker 1: that the language in Miller versus Alabama actually did apply 144 00:09:34,440 --> 00:09:38,880 Speaker 1: to Malbo that is not limited to mandatory sentences. She 145 00:09:39,080 --> 00:09:42,600 Speaker 1: explained how Miller requires that miners must be given an 146 00:09:42,640 --> 00:09:46,680 Speaker 1: option less than life without parole, and since the courts 147 00:09:46,679 --> 00:09:51,080 Speaker 1: did not offer Malvo anything less than that, his sentence 148 00:09:51,280 --> 00:09:57,200 Speaker 1: is unconstitutional. The entire hearing lasted just over an hour. 149 00:09:57,880 --> 00:10:01,520 Speaker 1: When it was finished, gallery umbers left the chamber and 150 00:10:01,559 --> 00:10:05,640 Speaker 1: walked out into the ringing October afternoon. We attended the 151 00:10:05,679 --> 00:10:08,920 Speaker 1: hearing and spoke with some of the observers outside the 152 00:10:08,920 --> 00:10:13,800 Speaker 1: Supreme Court building. I generally think everyone should have a 153 00:10:13,880 --> 00:10:16,160 Speaker 1: parole chance. I don't see what harm it does to 154 00:10:16,320 --> 00:10:19,560 Speaker 1: like see if after a decade somebody can change. I 155 00:10:19,600 --> 00:10:24,360 Speaker 1: think everyone probably has that capacity, especially like since the 156 00:10:24,400 --> 00:10:27,840 Speaker 1: crime was committed at such a young age. Uh, there's 157 00:10:27,880 --> 00:10:29,760 Speaker 1: a lot of there's a lot of change, a lot 158 00:10:29,760 --> 00:10:32,160 Speaker 1: of mellowing out that can happen in the years after. 159 00:10:33,400 --> 00:10:36,400 Speaker 1: You keep hearing the news. He says that children younger 160 00:10:36,400 --> 00:10:39,920 Speaker 1: and younger committing the horrific crimes. But I just feel 161 00:10:39,920 --> 00:10:42,760 Speaker 1: like at that age, especially he was under the influence 162 00:10:42,800 --> 00:10:47,560 Speaker 1: of an older person and possibly you know, not having 163 00:10:47,559 --> 00:10:54,199 Speaker 1: the cognitive powers of like thinking consequence and long term. 164 00:10:54,440 --> 00:10:56,559 Speaker 1: I think there's a lot of anger still about the 165 00:10:56,720 --> 00:10:59,600 Speaker 1: sniper shootings, especially in this area. Like I remember my 166 00:10:59,640 --> 00:11:02,040 Speaker 1: parents telling me they would run from their car in 167 00:11:02,160 --> 00:11:05,520 Speaker 1: the giant or home depot. I think it's hard to 168 00:11:05,520 --> 00:11:09,000 Speaker 1: look fast, anger and hurt. But I've worked with juveniles, 169 00:11:09,040 --> 00:11:12,280 Speaker 1: and I think he was manipulated. I don't think he'll 170 00:11:12,280 --> 00:11:14,199 Speaker 1: ever get out, So it's not about him. It's about 171 00:11:14,720 --> 00:11:18,079 Speaker 1: the supplying retroactively to other juveniles who may have been 172 00:11:18,120 --> 00:11:21,320 Speaker 1: manipulated or caught in a bad circumstance. I want them 173 00:11:21,360 --> 00:11:24,640 Speaker 1: to have a chance to be rehabilitated and get out. 174 00:11:28,679 --> 00:11:31,480 Speaker 1: Most of the people we spoke to outside the Supreme 175 00:11:31,520 --> 00:11:35,120 Speaker 1: Court made a similar point that, regardless of what you 176 00:11:35,160 --> 00:11:38,880 Speaker 1: think about malvo sentence, a ruling in his favor would 177 00:11:38,920 --> 00:11:44,079 Speaker 1: impact countless juvenile offenders nationwide. If the court sided with Malvo, 178 00:11:44,600 --> 00:11:48,120 Speaker 1: inmates who committed crimes as miners would be eligible for 179 00:11:48,200 --> 00:11:53,679 Speaker 1: resentencing and could potentially be granted parole one day. We 180 00:11:53,800 --> 00:11:56,800 Speaker 1: end up always looking at these fantastic cases like Malvo. 181 00:11:57,200 --> 00:12:00,160 Speaker 1: That's not how most of these cases go down to. 182 00:12:00,240 --> 00:12:04,400 Speaker 1: These cases are an armed robbery gone bad, a heavy 183 00:12:04,520 --> 00:12:10,880 Speaker 1: trigger finger, stupid stupid behavior that tragically results in a stupid, 184 00:12:10,880 --> 00:12:15,960 Speaker 1: stupid outcome. My name is Steve Reba. I'm the clinical 185 00:12:16,000 --> 00:12:18,800 Speaker 1: director at the Appeal for Youth Clinic at Emory Law School, 186 00:12:19,120 --> 00:12:21,880 Speaker 1: where we represent kids who have been tried and convicted 187 00:12:21,920 --> 00:12:25,559 Speaker 1: as adults. We take post conviction action and go back 188 00:12:25,600 --> 00:12:29,040 Speaker 1: and try to address their lengthy sentences, most of them 189 00:12:29,080 --> 00:12:33,000 Speaker 1: are life without parole sentences. Riba says that most of 190 00:12:33,040 --> 00:12:36,520 Speaker 1: the juvenile offenders he works with were sentenced by less 191 00:12:36,559 --> 00:12:39,920 Speaker 1: tolerant courts from the eighties and nineties, and while those 192 00:12:39,960 --> 00:12:43,520 Speaker 1: courts were supposed to help and support miners. They ended 193 00:12:43,559 --> 00:12:47,640 Speaker 1: up focusing more on punishment. We lost the idea in 194 00:12:47,679 --> 00:12:52,040 Speaker 1: a sense of the rehabilitative juvenile system that's civil in nature, 195 00:12:52,160 --> 00:12:55,080 Speaker 1: not a criminal system, and we decided just to start 196 00:12:55,160 --> 00:12:58,960 Speaker 1: putting all these youthful offenders into our adult system, giving 197 00:12:59,040 --> 00:13:03,400 Speaker 1: them lengthy prison sentences, making them convicted felons. We still 198 00:13:03,400 --> 00:13:06,080 Speaker 1: have the exact same laws in place. We're still treating 199 00:13:06,200 --> 00:13:08,840 Speaker 1: these children in our adult systems. And and as with 200 00:13:08,880 --> 00:13:12,400 Speaker 1: our criminal justice system in general, it's discriminatory. I mean, 201 00:13:12,400 --> 00:13:15,480 Speaker 1: it focuses on black and brown kids, and they are 202 00:13:15,559 --> 00:13:17,760 Speaker 1: arrested at much higher rates, they are put through our 203 00:13:17,760 --> 00:13:20,520 Speaker 1: criminal justice system, and much higher rates they are given 204 00:13:20,760 --> 00:13:23,880 Speaker 1: larger sentences, and that's what we're still dealing with today. 205 00:13:24,520 --> 00:13:28,600 Speaker 1: Reba says. Supreme Court cases, starting with Roper versus Simmons 206 00:13:28,600 --> 00:13:31,840 Speaker 1: in two thousand five, began to usher in more lenient 207 00:13:31,920 --> 00:13:36,319 Speaker 1: sentences for miners. Reba's appeal for Youth Clinic has since 208 00:13:36,400 --> 00:13:41,400 Speaker 1: overturned numerous lengthy sentences for juvenile offenders, but he says 209 00:13:41,400 --> 00:13:45,120 Speaker 1: there's one big challenge in the language. For many relevant 210 00:13:45,160 --> 00:13:49,080 Speaker 1: Supreme Court rulings, it was determined that miners must be 211 00:13:49,200 --> 00:13:53,840 Speaker 1: sentenced based on two determining factors. So is the juvenile 212 00:13:53,880 --> 00:13:59,439 Speaker 1: one irreparably corrupt? Is the juvenile two permanently incorrigible. This 213 00:13:59,559 --> 00:14:02,120 Speaker 1: is now sort of the lens in which we're supposed 214 00:14:02,160 --> 00:14:04,760 Speaker 1: to look at these offenders to decide if they're quote 215 00:14:04,800 --> 00:14:08,080 Speaker 1: unquote the rarest juveniles who deserve this sort of offense. 216 00:14:08,880 --> 00:14:13,840 Speaker 1: What those terms mean exactly is not clear, but essentially, 217 00:14:14,400 --> 00:14:19,640 Speaker 1: incorrigible means incapable of being reformed or rehabilitated. A lot 218 00:14:19,680 --> 00:14:23,320 Speaker 1: of this focuses on brain science, right, the prefrontal cortex 219 00:14:23,440 --> 00:14:26,640 Speaker 1: and how it develops. This is what controls whether you 220 00:14:26,680 --> 00:14:29,800 Speaker 1: make rash decisions or not, and this develops in your 221 00:14:29,840 --> 00:14:35,000 Speaker 1: early twenties. Literally, we have scientific evidence that these kids 222 00:14:35,040 --> 00:14:38,000 Speaker 1: do not possess right the same brain as an adult 223 00:14:38,040 --> 00:14:41,440 Speaker 1: to control their behavior. And so if we are literally 224 00:14:41,480 --> 00:14:44,160 Speaker 1: talking about a brain that is is not developed, how 225 00:14:44,160 --> 00:14:46,840 Speaker 1: can we treat these kids? How can we, you know, 226 00:14:46,880 --> 00:14:49,120 Speaker 1: put the same level of culpability on them as we 227 00:14:49,120 --> 00:14:52,560 Speaker 1: would an adult. That is really what is foundational or 228 00:14:52,640 --> 00:14:56,160 Speaker 1: underlying the jurisprudence from the Supreme Court from two thousand 229 00:14:56,240 --> 00:15:00,320 Speaker 1: five on. Reba says everyone in his line of work 230 00:15:00,880 --> 00:15:04,520 Speaker 1: has been looking to see what happens with Mathina versus Malvo. 231 00:15:05,000 --> 00:15:07,440 Speaker 1: The Malvo case will be very interesting. It's really hard 232 00:15:07,480 --> 00:15:10,480 Speaker 1: to imagine a series of crimes that are more brutal, 233 00:15:11,000 --> 00:15:13,400 Speaker 1: but at the same time, he's doing it with someone 234 00:15:13,520 --> 00:15:16,200 Speaker 1: he considers to be his father figure, right, I mean, 235 00:15:16,240 --> 00:15:19,160 Speaker 1: it's it's effectively his dad who's telling him to do 236 00:15:19,240 --> 00:15:21,160 Speaker 1: these things. And you have this child who spent a 237 00:15:21,160 --> 00:15:23,440 Speaker 1: good amount of time in foster care and just had really, 238 00:15:23,440 --> 00:15:26,360 Speaker 1: really difficult childhood. You have both sides. You have a 239 00:15:26,360 --> 00:15:28,760 Speaker 1: brutal crime, but also at the same time, this child 240 00:15:28,800 --> 00:15:31,680 Speaker 1: who's being led to do these things by an adult. 241 00:15:32,480 --> 00:15:34,320 Speaker 1: The hope is and I think one day we will 242 00:15:34,400 --> 00:15:37,960 Speaker 1: get to the point where we recognize you cannot give 243 00:15:38,000 --> 00:15:41,000 Speaker 1: a child a life without parole sentence period. Right, This 244 00:15:41,400 --> 00:15:45,400 Speaker 1: irreparably corrupt or permanently incordible idea is just not something 245 00:15:45,440 --> 00:15:48,080 Speaker 1: that's applicable. But that's not where we are now, and 246 00:15:48,080 --> 00:15:49,720 Speaker 1: that's not the court we have right now. So I 247 00:15:49,720 --> 00:15:52,600 Speaker 1: don't I don't think that's happening in Malvo's case. And 248 00:15:52,760 --> 00:15:56,880 Speaker 1: Reba says the scale of Malvo's crimes makes his case 249 00:15:56,960 --> 00:16:01,920 Speaker 1: more complicated. I totally understand the continued anguish and the 250 00:16:02,000 --> 00:16:05,720 Speaker 1: victims families being upset. That is completely natural, and that 251 00:16:05,840 --> 00:16:08,920 Speaker 1: is exactly where the pressures live. If you have a 252 00:16:09,000 --> 00:16:13,040 Speaker 1: contingency of the victims family who are vocal and against it, 253 00:16:13,360 --> 00:16:17,840 Speaker 1: and politically active judges who are elected and prosecutors who 254 00:16:17,840 --> 00:16:21,040 Speaker 1: are elected are going to take notice of that. It's 255 00:16:21,080 --> 00:16:25,000 Speaker 1: just not the right approach to whether we should be 256 00:16:25,040 --> 00:16:28,440 Speaker 1: imposing these life without pearole senses. The right approach is 257 00:16:28,480 --> 00:16:32,760 Speaker 1: clearly that we just need to ban life without pearole senses. 258 00:16:33,400 --> 00:16:37,240 Speaker 1: It's the easiest thing to do. Most of these states 259 00:16:37,280 --> 00:16:39,640 Speaker 1: have parole systems. They can leave it up to these 260 00:16:39,680 --> 00:16:42,560 Speaker 1: parole systems and these individuals who it's their job to 261 00:16:42,600 --> 00:16:45,280 Speaker 1: determine whether these inmates should be released, to determine whether 262 00:16:45,320 --> 00:16:48,240 Speaker 1: they should be released. There's nothing that says if you 263 00:16:48,480 --> 00:16:51,400 Speaker 1: get a life sentence that has the possibility of parole, 264 00:16:51,800 --> 00:16:54,560 Speaker 1: that you'll ever be released. It's the possibility of parole. 265 00:16:55,320 --> 00:17:00,320 Speaker 1: If someone really is irreparably corrupt and permanently incorrigible, our 266 00:17:00,360 --> 00:17:03,400 Speaker 1: parole system should be competent enough to know that person 267 00:17:03,720 --> 00:17:06,320 Speaker 1: is those things and not release him or her. Right, 268 00:17:07,080 --> 00:17:09,640 Speaker 1: I'm not so sure that he won't get out. At 269 00:17:09,640 --> 00:17:12,000 Speaker 1: some point, you know he may not. But there's a 270 00:17:12,040 --> 00:17:15,480 Speaker 1: really important component to being in prison, and it's called 271 00:17:15,520 --> 00:17:20,160 Speaker 1: hope and the idea that you're working towards something, you're 272 00:17:20,200 --> 00:17:24,119 Speaker 1: trying to achieve something. There is a light, however dim 273 00:17:24,160 --> 00:17:26,960 Speaker 1: and however distant, at the end of the tunnel. Those 274 00:17:27,000 --> 00:17:30,360 Speaker 1: are really important things when you know you've been locked up. 275 00:17:31,240 --> 00:17:36,040 Speaker 1: This production team, numerous activist groups, and hundreds of incarcerated 276 00:17:36,119 --> 00:17:40,200 Speaker 1: juvenile offenders across the nation. We're anxiously awaiting the Supreme 277 00:17:40,240 --> 00:17:44,600 Speaker 1: Court decision in the Malvo case. But then back in 278 00:17:44,680 --> 00:17:49,800 Speaker 1: February of this year, something unexpected happened, breaking news from 279 00:17:49,800 --> 00:17:53,399 Speaker 1: the state capital. The DC sniper Lee Boyd Malvo will 280 00:17:53,520 --> 00:17:56,840 Speaker 1: not be re sentenced after a new Virginia law just 281 00:17:56,880 --> 00:17:59,960 Speaker 1: signed by Governor Ralph Northam. The new law states minor 282 00:18:00,400 --> 00:18:03,399 Speaker 1: can be considered for parole after serving twenty years of 283 00:18:03,400 --> 00:18:09,359 Speaker 1: their life sentence. On February, Virginia Governor Rout Northam signed 284 00:18:09,359 --> 00:18:13,439 Speaker 1: a bill into law effectively ending the sentence of life 285 00:18:13,440 --> 00:18:17,960 Speaker 1: without parole for juvenile offenders. As a result, Lee Boyd 286 00:18:18,000 --> 00:18:21,960 Speaker 1: Malvo will be eligible for parole in two thousand two. 287 00:18:39,320 --> 00:18:42,399 Speaker 1: As a result of the new Virginia law, Melvo no 288 00:18:42,560 --> 00:18:47,360 Speaker 1: longer needs a resentencing in Virginia, and so his Supreme 289 00:18:47,400 --> 00:18:51,200 Speaker 1: Court case was dismissed. Here are two of Melvo's attorneys, 290 00:18:51,520 --> 00:18:56,040 Speaker 1: Tom Walsh and Mark Petrovitch. My review of the law 291 00:18:56,480 --> 00:19:01,440 Speaker 1: is that it's fairly straightforward. Any juvenile who is sentenced 292 00:19:01,760 --> 00:19:06,600 Speaker 1: and has served a period of twenty years incarceration is eligible. 293 00:19:06,960 --> 00:19:12,200 Speaker 1: The keyword there is eligible, eligible for consideration for being 294 00:19:12,240 --> 00:19:15,560 Speaker 1: released on parole. That doesn't mean that they get released 295 00:19:15,680 --> 00:19:18,600 Speaker 1: after twenty years. That doesn't mean that there's any kind 296 00:19:18,640 --> 00:19:21,480 Speaker 1: of automatic process. It just means that they're eligible to 297 00:19:21,520 --> 00:19:26,159 Speaker 1: be considered for release on parole. The exact parameters of 298 00:19:26,200 --> 00:19:30,320 Speaker 1: how the new parole scheme and the review process will 299 00:19:30,359 --> 00:19:34,320 Speaker 1: specifically be applied, I think, are still to be determined. 300 00:19:34,840 --> 00:19:37,159 Speaker 1: The one thing to be mindful of with regard to 301 00:19:37,240 --> 00:19:41,320 Speaker 1: Lee is he also faces sentences in Maryland, so we 302 00:19:41,359 --> 00:19:44,040 Speaker 1: don't know how their process will work. But if he 303 00:19:44,080 --> 00:19:49,200 Speaker 1: even receives parole in Virginia, that's not necessarily the end 304 00:19:49,359 --> 00:19:54,160 Speaker 1: of his incarceration. He may still need to FaceTime in Maryland. 305 00:19:54,680 --> 00:19:57,480 Speaker 1: Lee has six life sentences in Maryland, and he has 306 00:19:57,520 --> 00:20:00,480 Speaker 1: foreign Virginia, so he if he was able to be 307 00:20:00,560 --> 00:20:03,040 Speaker 1: paroled of Virginia, he would go to Maryland then and 308 00:20:03,040 --> 00:20:06,400 Speaker 1: then proceed that. I know just reading some articles that 309 00:20:06,640 --> 00:20:10,560 Speaker 1: Maryland is also attacking it sentencing procedures for juveniles, So 310 00:20:10,720 --> 00:20:14,760 Speaker 1: we'll see how that turns out. This development has caused 311 00:20:14,800 --> 00:20:19,040 Speaker 1: an uproar amongst those closest to this story. Whether Malvo 312 00:20:19,080 --> 00:20:25,199 Speaker 1: should be given parole is a deeply polarizing question. You know, 313 00:20:25,280 --> 00:20:27,520 Speaker 1: I don't know if he was ever properly diagnosed. As 314 00:20:27,520 --> 00:20:30,880 Speaker 1: far as I'm concerned, he was a psychopathic, cold blooded 315 00:20:31,040 --> 00:20:34,840 Speaker 1: killer that can never walk the street again. This has 316 00:20:34,880 --> 00:20:38,800 Speaker 1: retired Maryland State Police Lieutenant David Reichenball. No one could 317 00:20:38,800 --> 00:20:41,560 Speaker 1: even think about ever letting this guy out in the public. 318 00:20:41,920 --> 00:20:44,040 Speaker 1: I've been around a long time. I've arrested a lot 319 00:20:44,080 --> 00:20:46,440 Speaker 1: of people, but this is one of those people that 320 00:20:46,520 --> 00:20:50,119 Speaker 1: you just know looking at him, this guy isn't done 321 00:20:50,520 --> 00:20:54,920 Speaker 1: killing if he gets the chance. I know that was 322 00:20:55,000 --> 00:20:57,800 Speaker 1: part of the defense that Mohammed sort of had him 323 00:20:57,880 --> 00:21:01,480 Speaker 1: under his thumb, you know, initial Malvo he was just 324 00:21:01,600 --> 00:21:06,639 Speaker 1: under the influence of Mohammed. Maybe he did initially, but 325 00:21:06,720 --> 00:21:09,840 Speaker 1: I don't buy that for a minute. If you look 326 00:21:09,880 --> 00:21:12,919 Speaker 1: at his story and his story from his day of 327 00:21:12,960 --> 00:21:17,280 Speaker 1: birth forward. Okay, yeah, I feel sorry. He was a 328 00:21:17,359 --> 00:21:20,199 Speaker 1: kid that uh didn't have much of a chance growing up, 329 00:21:20,680 --> 00:21:23,520 Speaker 1: But that didn't make him a cold blooded killer. He 330 00:21:23,600 --> 00:21:27,720 Speaker 1: was a cold blooded killer, and Mohammed may have enhanced 331 00:21:27,760 --> 00:21:31,000 Speaker 1: that and gave him the ability to kill through obtaining 332 00:21:31,040 --> 00:21:36,880 Speaker 1: those weapons. Believe that, But hey, fourteen times in our 333 00:21:36,960 --> 00:21:39,600 Speaker 1: area alone, and I think they were credited with over 334 00:21:39,680 --> 00:21:44,280 Speaker 1: seventeen killings throughout their spree across the country. That's not 335 00:21:44,320 --> 00:21:46,800 Speaker 1: a brainwash kid. That's a killer. That's all that kid 336 00:21:46,800 --> 00:21:50,639 Speaker 1: will ever be, nothing but a cold blooded killer that 337 00:21:50,680 --> 00:21:52,680 Speaker 1: should be kept in a cage the rest of his life. 338 00:21:55,320 --> 00:21:58,640 Speaker 1: But some people still believe that Malvo was a victim, 339 00:21:58,720 --> 00:22:01,480 Speaker 1: that he committed his crimes while under the influence of 340 00:22:01,560 --> 00:22:04,960 Speaker 1: John Mohammed. Most people when they think of the DC 341 00:22:05,080 --> 00:22:08,639 Speaker 1: sniper case, they think of the horrific random shootings in 342 00:22:08,680 --> 00:22:12,240 Speaker 1: the DC area. A lot of people don't understand that 343 00:22:12,359 --> 00:22:15,920 Speaker 1: there's a story that started many years ago, and actually 344 00:22:16,000 --> 00:22:20,080 Speaker 1: the very first victim was Mildred. The second victim I 345 00:22:20,200 --> 00:22:24,919 Speaker 1: believe was Lee Malvo. This is Melissa Moore, host of 346 00:22:24,960 --> 00:22:28,680 Speaker 1: the podcast Happy Face that show is about how Moore 347 00:22:28,760 --> 00:22:33,160 Speaker 1: survived her father Keith Hunter Jesperson, the man who came 348 00:22:33,200 --> 00:22:37,040 Speaker 1: to be known as the Happy Face serial killer. More 349 00:22:37,119 --> 00:22:41,359 Speaker 1: also hosted the lifetime docuseries Monster in My Family. For 350 00:22:41,440 --> 00:22:46,320 Speaker 1: that program, she interviewed numerous high profile killers, including Lee 351 00:22:46,320 --> 00:22:50,159 Speaker 1: Boyd Malvo. So when I talked to serial killers or 352 00:22:50,280 --> 00:22:55,320 Speaker 1: mass killers, they're always sorry that they got caught. This 353 00:22:55,400 --> 00:22:58,280 Speaker 1: is not the case for Lee Malvo. And I can 354 00:22:58,320 --> 00:23:00,800 Speaker 1: sense it that when he talked about of victims to me, 355 00:23:01,280 --> 00:23:05,040 Speaker 1: he was breaking down, and it was a crocodile tears. 356 00:23:05,080 --> 00:23:07,800 Speaker 1: I've heard crocodile tears. You know. My dad is even 357 00:23:07,840 --> 00:23:11,720 Speaker 1: called his murders a lapse of judgment, and killers will 358 00:23:11,760 --> 00:23:15,320 Speaker 1: do that. They will dismiss and minimize what they did. 359 00:23:15,880 --> 00:23:18,119 Speaker 1: Not Lee, when I asked him, like, what would you 360 00:23:18,119 --> 00:23:21,920 Speaker 1: say to the victims, he was hesitant to even say 361 00:23:21,960 --> 00:23:26,560 Speaker 1: anything because there's nothing he could say that could ever 362 00:23:26,720 --> 00:23:33,440 Speaker 1: justify or redeem anything he did. Malvo expressed similar feelings 363 00:23:33,480 --> 00:23:37,360 Speaker 1: in a two thousand twelve interview with Washington Post journalist 364 00:23:37,400 --> 00:23:43,040 Speaker 1: Josh White. I am sorry, I am sorry. I mean 365 00:23:43,080 --> 00:23:46,520 Speaker 1: there it is no way to express that. I mean, 366 00:23:46,520 --> 00:23:48,840 Speaker 1: what am I going to tell him, I'm sorry, I'm 367 00:23:48,880 --> 00:23:51,919 Speaker 1: murdered your own child. I'm sorry I killed your husband. 368 00:23:52,160 --> 00:23:54,880 Speaker 1: I'm sorry I murdered your wife. What do I tell 369 00:23:54,920 --> 00:23:56,600 Speaker 1: the child who was waiting for his father to come 370 00:23:56,600 --> 00:23:59,720 Speaker 1: home and dad never showed up. When I was in 371 00:24:00,040 --> 00:24:03,200 Speaker 1: doing him, he didn't hit on any of the major 372 00:24:03,320 --> 00:24:06,560 Speaker 1: things that I look for with a psychopath, which are 373 00:24:07,200 --> 00:24:11,720 Speaker 1: former animal abuse, blaming other people, thinking that they're above 374 00:24:11,760 --> 00:24:16,160 Speaker 1: other people, that they're grandiose, that they're superior. He didn't 375 00:24:16,160 --> 00:24:21,359 Speaker 1: delight in talking about the crimes. That is something unusual. 376 00:24:22,000 --> 00:24:24,879 Speaker 1: So like when I interviewed like the b t K killer, 377 00:24:25,400 --> 00:24:27,639 Speaker 1: he could give a false sense of like, well, I 378 00:24:27,680 --> 00:24:30,640 Speaker 1: don't want to hurt the victims families anymore by sharing this, 379 00:24:31,040 --> 00:24:34,119 Speaker 1: But then in the next line he would say something 380 00:24:34,200 --> 00:24:37,600 Speaker 1: contradictory to that, with lee that that wasn't the case. 381 00:24:38,600 --> 00:24:40,679 Speaker 1: I mean, I was a monster. If you look up 382 00:24:40,720 --> 00:24:42,840 Speaker 1: the definition, I mean, that's what a monster is. I 383 00:24:43,200 --> 00:24:45,399 Speaker 1: was a google, I was a thief. I I stole 384 00:24:45,480 --> 00:24:50,040 Speaker 1: people's life. I didn't beating just because they said to him. 385 00:24:50,080 --> 00:24:53,280 Speaker 1: I mean, that is the definition of a monster. I 386 00:24:53,320 --> 00:24:57,200 Speaker 1: do believe that he should be released. I do believe 387 00:24:57,840 --> 00:25:02,679 Speaker 1: that he wouldn't be a threat to society. I believe 388 00:25:02,720 --> 00:25:05,600 Speaker 1: this because of speaking to him and knowing that this 389 00:25:05,800 --> 00:25:10,840 Speaker 1: wasn't a thought process on his own. This was ingrained 390 00:25:10,840 --> 00:25:14,280 Speaker 1: in him. He was conditioned, He was brainwashed to become 391 00:25:14,320 --> 00:25:18,359 Speaker 1: a cold, violent killer. And if he had therapy, if 392 00:25:18,440 --> 00:25:22,119 Speaker 1: he had treatment the proper resources, which I don't believe 393 00:25:22,160 --> 00:25:25,080 Speaker 1: he's probably getting in prison, then I believe he would 394 00:25:25,080 --> 00:25:28,880 Speaker 1: actually be an asset. As far as would I ever 395 00:25:29,480 --> 00:25:32,040 Speaker 1: if thirty or forty or fifty years and now if 396 00:25:32,040 --> 00:25:34,080 Speaker 1: I would begin in the street, would I ever kill 397 00:25:34,200 --> 00:25:36,720 Speaker 1: or would I know? I wouldn't do that. Um. But 398 00:25:36,800 --> 00:25:39,320 Speaker 1: as I said, I mean learning to be with myself 399 00:25:39,320 --> 00:25:43,000 Speaker 1: and forgive myself. They're they're different layers. I mean something 400 00:25:43,040 --> 00:25:45,679 Speaker 1: like this, you can't tackle all of it at the 401 00:25:45,720 --> 00:25:49,040 Speaker 1: same time, usually be a nervous breakdown a suicid. You 402 00:25:49,119 --> 00:25:55,840 Speaker 1: do it incrementally, piece by piece. But some say that 403 00:25:55,960 --> 00:25:59,920 Speaker 1: even if Malvo could be rehabilitated, and thus deems say 404 00:26:00,080 --> 00:26:03,879 Speaker 1: to walk the streets, that still serves little justice for 405 00:26:03,960 --> 00:26:08,720 Speaker 1: the people he killed, as it relates legally, remorse to 406 00:26:08,840 --> 00:26:14,160 Speaker 1: me for killing six people doesn't really play into parole. 407 00:26:15,040 --> 00:26:18,560 Speaker 1: This is psychologist Anthony Meoli. He worked with Malvo to 408 00:26:18,680 --> 00:26:23,159 Speaker 1: co author his autobiography. It doesn't take away from the 409 00:26:23,200 --> 00:26:26,480 Speaker 1: fact that eight people, at least will never be brought 410 00:26:26,520 --> 00:26:30,520 Speaker 1: back because they cannot. They're dead from his hands and 411 00:26:30,640 --> 00:26:35,399 Speaker 1: his hands only, not John's. And regardless of what level 412 00:26:35,400 --> 00:26:39,200 Speaker 1: of remorse he has, he needs to be held accountable 413 00:26:39,280 --> 00:26:42,880 Speaker 1: for what he did. And for me, life without parole 414 00:26:43,520 --> 00:26:48,560 Speaker 1: is the correct sentence whether he was seven, seventeen, or seventy, 415 00:26:48,840 --> 00:26:52,520 Speaker 1: it still doesn't take away the fact of what he did. 416 00:26:53,440 --> 00:26:56,320 Speaker 1: And there are many people, and I mean many people 417 00:26:56,359 --> 00:27:00,680 Speaker 1: in prison who are serving life without parole for far 418 00:27:00,800 --> 00:27:04,720 Speaker 1: less and just because he's a hundred and seventeen days 419 00:27:04,760 --> 00:27:09,000 Speaker 1: short of his eighteenth birthday doesn't bring back eight people. 420 00:27:10,520 --> 00:27:13,119 Speaker 1: Here's one of the individuals whose life will never be 421 00:27:13,200 --> 00:27:17,800 Speaker 1: the same. Ola Martin Cooksley, the sister of James Martin, 422 00:27:18,280 --> 00:27:21,440 Speaker 1: who was shot and killed on October two, two two. 423 00:27:22,720 --> 00:27:25,639 Speaker 1: At the time, I was thinking, well, he should be 424 00:27:25,720 --> 00:27:28,560 Speaker 1: locked up forever and ever I would like to kind 425 00:27:28,560 --> 00:27:31,919 Speaker 1: of see whether or not he's really changed or or whatever. 426 00:27:32,680 --> 00:27:38,760 Speaker 1: I mean, I forgive him, because while I didn't forgive him, 427 00:27:38,880 --> 00:27:43,200 Speaker 1: it just tore up my own soul. And forgiving him 428 00:27:43,240 --> 00:27:48,240 Speaker 1: gives me peace, so that whatever he does, you know, 429 00:27:48,800 --> 00:27:50,720 Speaker 1: if he does get out some day, or if he 430 00:27:50,720 --> 00:27:54,000 Speaker 1: gets a lesser sentence or something someday, you know, I'm 431 00:27:54,040 --> 00:27:57,320 Speaker 1: not going to feel bitter about it, are angry about it, 432 00:27:57,440 --> 00:28:01,320 Speaker 1: or anything, because you know, I've forgiven him, and I 433 00:28:01,359 --> 00:28:05,480 Speaker 1: know that Jim would have wanted me to forgive him. 434 00:28:05,520 --> 00:28:08,520 Speaker 1: Here's the perspective of Paul Arufa. He was shot on 435 00:28:08,560 --> 00:28:13,680 Speaker 1: September five, two thousand two. If I didn't forgive him, 436 00:28:13,800 --> 00:28:18,040 Speaker 1: then I would feel the anger that I felt at 437 00:28:18,080 --> 00:28:21,160 Speaker 1: the time. And I did feel angry when they when 438 00:28:21,160 --> 00:28:23,800 Speaker 1: he was caught, you know, jeez, let me get my 439 00:28:23,840 --> 00:28:27,240 Speaker 1: hands on him. A lot of anger. But if I 440 00:28:27,280 --> 00:28:29,440 Speaker 1: didn't forgive him, i'd feel that today and I don't 441 00:28:29,480 --> 00:28:32,280 Speaker 1: feel that today, and I haven't felt that for years. 442 00:28:32,760 --> 00:28:37,800 Speaker 1: He hasn't ruined my life, and that part of forgiveness 443 00:28:37,920 --> 00:28:41,040 Speaker 1: is that it just lets you go on with your life. 444 00:28:41,560 --> 00:28:45,480 Speaker 1: So yeah, I can say I've forgiven him, but it 445 00:28:45,520 --> 00:28:48,720 Speaker 1: doesn't mean what he did was okay with me. I 446 00:28:48,760 --> 00:28:51,920 Speaker 1: think he's responsible for what he did. I don't think 447 00:28:51,920 --> 00:28:55,320 Speaker 1: he was brainwashed to the extent that he didn't know 448 00:28:55,440 --> 00:28:59,040 Speaker 1: right from wrong. He knew, absolutely knew that killing people 449 00:28:59,200 --> 00:29:02,480 Speaker 1: wasn't a thing to do and wasn't a right thing. 450 00:29:02,960 --> 00:29:05,000 Speaker 1: There's no question in my mind that he knew that. 451 00:29:05,800 --> 00:29:09,160 Speaker 1: But I do believe he was brainwashed. For lack of 452 00:29:09,160 --> 00:29:13,200 Speaker 1: a better term, I do believe he was under Mohammed's control. 453 00:29:14,000 --> 00:29:18,280 Speaker 1: You can't deny psychologically that there was something to this 454 00:29:18,320 --> 00:29:21,320 Speaker 1: whole thing. I mean, this kid was abandoned. He was 455 00:29:21,400 --> 00:29:23,960 Speaker 1: on his own from the time he was very young. 456 00:29:24,360 --> 00:29:27,760 Speaker 1: He was on the streets on his own. There's no 457 00:29:27,840 --> 00:29:32,040 Speaker 1: doubt that this kid's from a very early point was 458 00:29:32,240 --> 00:29:38,440 Speaker 1: not in the best circumstances to be mentally stable. So 459 00:29:38,720 --> 00:29:42,760 Speaker 1: I believe that's true. Now, the only time I really 460 00:29:42,760 --> 00:29:46,360 Speaker 1: heard him speak was a reporter from the Washington Post 461 00:29:46,400 --> 00:29:49,240 Speaker 1: did an interview with him. Then you can hear his voice, 462 00:29:49,240 --> 00:29:52,240 Speaker 1: and you can hear him say that he was a monster. 463 00:29:52,920 --> 00:29:56,920 Speaker 1: He understands what happened, and I think he does. I 464 00:29:56,960 --> 00:30:00,120 Speaker 1: didn't have a personality to begin when I see that 465 00:30:00,160 --> 00:30:03,720 Speaker 1: there was no there were no stable routes. I was 466 00:30:03,840 --> 00:30:07,000 Speaker 1: unsure of myself, and so he gave me something to 467 00:30:07,040 --> 00:30:11,480 Speaker 1: latch onto and controlled it. It's hard to explain, but 468 00:30:11,520 --> 00:30:16,440 Speaker 1: that's that's just what happened. The only time I actually 469 00:30:16,560 --> 00:30:19,720 Speaker 1: broke it was on two occasions. The first one was 470 00:30:19,720 --> 00:30:21,560 Speaker 1: when he asked me to shoot the pregnant lady and 471 00:30:21,600 --> 00:30:26,360 Speaker 1: I couldn't do it. And the second time was when 472 00:30:26,840 --> 00:30:28,800 Speaker 1: there was a loan in the shooting for like six 473 00:30:28,880 --> 00:30:30,719 Speaker 1: days and we just had an argument. He kicking out 474 00:30:30,760 --> 00:30:32,320 Speaker 1: the car and told me to go about my business 475 00:30:33,040 --> 00:30:34,960 Speaker 1: and then came back to like about three hours later 476 00:30:34,960 --> 00:30:36,760 Speaker 1: to kick me a pile still sitting in the same spot. 477 00:30:37,600 --> 00:30:41,680 Speaker 1: I was a nervous retnor. I get the feeling he 478 00:30:41,920 --> 00:30:44,240 Speaker 1: feels he has to pay a price for it. I 479 00:30:44,280 --> 00:30:47,960 Speaker 1: think the argument is how long a price? And that's 480 00:30:48,000 --> 00:30:50,720 Speaker 1: my question. Has he paid enough of a price? I 481 00:30:50,760 --> 00:30:53,920 Speaker 1: don't think so. Might he get out someday? I'm convinced 482 00:30:53,920 --> 00:30:56,920 Speaker 1: he will, but I don't know when that time is. 483 00:30:57,080 --> 00:30:59,720 Speaker 1: I don't think it's now, and I don't know how 484 00:30:59,800 --> 00:31:02,760 Speaker 1: much to that he would agree with. I get the 485 00:31:02,800 --> 00:31:05,600 Speaker 1: feeling he agrees he has to pay a price, but 486 00:31:05,680 --> 00:31:07,560 Speaker 1: I don't know if he thinks he's already paid it 487 00:31:07,760 --> 00:31:10,120 Speaker 1: enough for not. I don't know the answer to that, 488 00:31:10,160 --> 00:31:17,320 Speaker 1: but I'd like to ask him that. Since going to prison, 489 00:31:17,960 --> 00:31:21,760 Speaker 1: Lee Boyd Malvo has expressed remorse for his actions in 490 00:31:21,800 --> 00:31:25,440 Speaker 1: an outreach to victims and their families. In a two 491 00:31:25,520 --> 00:31:29,640 Speaker 1: thousand twelve interview with Washington Post journalist Josh White, Malvo 492 00:31:29,760 --> 00:31:33,719 Speaker 1: said he was haunted by two specific memories. The first 493 00:31:33,760 --> 00:31:38,760 Speaker 1: one is Mr Franklin's eyes. They're paying trinking, But if 494 00:31:38,800 --> 00:31:40,920 Speaker 1: it is the worst sort of pain I've ever seen 495 00:31:40,920 --> 00:31:45,240 Speaker 1: in my life, his eyes words do not dissist the 496 00:31:45,360 --> 00:31:48,920 Speaker 1: depth in which the fully convey that emotion and what 497 00:31:49,000 --> 00:31:51,240 Speaker 1: I felt when I saw it. You feel like the 498 00:31:51,400 --> 00:31:56,600 Speaker 1: worst piece of scum on the planet. The second is 499 00:31:57,800 --> 00:32:02,800 Speaker 1: Conrad Johnson's mother when I was since Maryland, and she 500 00:32:02,840 --> 00:32:06,560 Speaker 1: had the opportunity to speak for me at that point 501 00:32:06,560 --> 00:32:09,240 Speaker 1: in time to certainly said, that's the very first time 502 00:32:09,360 --> 00:32:15,680 Speaker 1: the immediacy of how my actions, my ignorant actions, affected 503 00:32:15,720 --> 00:32:19,320 Speaker 1: the life of August, that's the first time may be registered. 504 00:32:20,880 --> 00:32:23,880 Speaker 1: But no one has ever none of the victims or 505 00:32:24,280 --> 00:32:26,720 Speaker 1: the surviving loved ones that ever had the opportunity to 506 00:32:26,800 --> 00:32:31,640 Speaker 1: me to confront me. Eventually, Malvo decided to start reaching 507 00:32:31,640 --> 00:32:35,720 Speaker 1: out to his victims. The local police. They went to 508 00:32:35,760 --> 00:32:40,520 Speaker 1: the Red Onion prison and they interviewed Leboyd Malvo and 509 00:32:40,640 --> 00:32:45,240 Speaker 1: he admitted to shooting a man in Hammond, and he 510 00:32:45,440 --> 00:32:49,280 Speaker 1: thought that I had died. This is John Gaida, the 511 00:32:49,360 --> 00:32:53,680 Speaker 1: victims shot in Hammond, Louisiana, on October one, two thousand two. 512 00:32:54,600 --> 00:32:56,960 Speaker 1: He says that about eight years after he was shot, 513 00:32:57,680 --> 00:33:02,920 Speaker 1: he received an apology letter from Malva Sundays Havebruary two 514 00:33:02,960 --> 00:33:07,520 Speaker 1: thousand and ten. Mr Gata, I am truly sorry for 515 00:33:07,560 --> 00:33:10,720 Speaker 1: the pain I caused you and your loved one. I 516 00:33:10,760 --> 00:33:14,400 Speaker 1: was relieved to hear that you suffer no paralyzing injuries 517 00:33:14,480 --> 00:33:18,920 Speaker 1: and that you are alive. Sincerely, Lee Boyd Malvo. And 518 00:33:19,000 --> 00:33:22,160 Speaker 1: then he found it. Yeah, I just kind of confirmed 519 00:33:22,520 --> 00:33:26,480 Speaker 1: becoming new. I'm grateful that he said an apology. I 520 00:33:26,520 --> 00:33:30,000 Speaker 1: would have sent something back, but all people advised against it. 521 00:33:30,160 --> 00:33:32,520 Speaker 1: They just said, you know, just you know, just let 522 00:33:32,520 --> 00:33:35,680 Speaker 1: it lie. But I appreciate that he did that. I 523 00:33:35,760 --> 00:33:38,680 Speaker 1: believe in forgiveness because that's what the Good Lord taught us, 524 00:33:38,800 --> 00:33:41,360 Speaker 1: and that's what we should do. Otherwise we will be 525 00:33:41,360 --> 00:33:45,280 Speaker 1: saying the Large Prayer in vain. There are two ways 526 00:33:45,320 --> 00:33:49,160 Speaker 1: to look at Malvo's actions from prison. Is it possible 527 00:33:49,200 --> 00:33:53,160 Speaker 1: he has truly unwound himself from his past and is 528 00:33:53,160 --> 00:33:57,920 Speaker 1: looking for some degree of genuine redemption, or is it 529 00:33:58,000 --> 00:34:01,240 Speaker 1: more likely that Malvo has been working to create a 530 00:34:01,320 --> 00:34:05,200 Speaker 1: redemption narrative in hopes of getting out of prison someday. 531 00:34:07,120 --> 00:34:10,360 Speaker 1: In two thousand twelve, Malvo gave an interview where he 532 00:34:10,400 --> 00:34:14,800 Speaker 1: shared new information. He suggested that he had been sexually 533 00:34:14,800 --> 00:34:18,839 Speaker 1: abused by John Mohammed. That revelation came as a shock 534 00:34:18,960 --> 00:34:23,840 Speaker 1: too many, including the co author of his autobiography, Anthony Meoli. 535 00:34:24,840 --> 00:34:28,360 Speaker 1: The first inkling I got of that was right around 536 00:34:28,360 --> 00:34:31,640 Speaker 1: two thousand twelve. I believe now here's a man who 537 00:34:31,640 --> 00:34:35,000 Speaker 1: wrote his entire diary. Nowhere in any chapter I have 538 00:34:35,640 --> 00:34:38,000 Speaker 1: nor amended chapters, because he did amend some of the 539 00:34:38,080 --> 00:34:41,440 Speaker 1: things to change things. Nor in any of the conversations 540 00:34:41,480 --> 00:34:43,799 Speaker 1: I had, nor in any of the emails I had, 541 00:34:43,960 --> 00:34:46,600 Speaker 1: nor in any private letter did I have, nor in 542 00:34:46,680 --> 00:34:49,080 Speaker 1: the interview I had with him for sixty six minutes 543 00:34:49,080 --> 00:34:51,319 Speaker 1: that he could have said anything he wanted, did he 544 00:34:51,400 --> 00:34:56,000 Speaker 1: talk about sexual abuse. Ever, it is possible that Mohammed 545 00:34:56,080 --> 00:34:59,960 Speaker 1: really did sexually abuse Malvo, and Malvo just didn't want 546 00:35:00,040 --> 00:35:02,719 Speaker 1: bring it up with me only. It is common for 547 00:35:02,719 --> 00:35:05,839 Speaker 1: survivors of abuse to feel shame and stay silent about 548 00:35:05,840 --> 00:35:09,879 Speaker 1: it for years. Malvo story would be even more confusing 549 00:35:09,880 --> 00:35:13,200 Speaker 1: and tragic if that were the case. But me only 550 00:35:13,360 --> 00:35:16,840 Speaker 1: is afraid that it is all maybe just a ploy 551 00:35:16,960 --> 00:35:23,040 Speaker 1: for sympathy. So I have been writing, emailing, speaking the 552 00:35:23,120 --> 00:35:27,400 Speaker 1: inmates on the phone, and visiting them for a quarter century. 553 00:35:27,480 --> 00:35:31,479 Speaker 1: And I can tell you, just like almost every human being, 554 00:35:31,880 --> 00:35:34,279 Speaker 1: at the end of the day, if you have an 555 00:35:34,280 --> 00:35:39,000 Speaker 1: opportunity to have a better slice at life for yourself, 556 00:35:39,320 --> 00:35:42,200 Speaker 1: chances are you'll take it. And I never put it 557 00:35:42,239 --> 00:35:45,440 Speaker 1: past any inmate. And I have to sometimes look at 558 00:35:45,480 --> 00:35:48,560 Speaker 1: myself in the mirror about this. Hey, am I being 559 00:35:48,800 --> 00:35:53,839 Speaker 1: used for their own personal goal, which is to tell 560 00:35:53,880 --> 00:35:56,760 Speaker 1: their story for whatever purpose it isn't it. It's something 561 00:35:56,800 --> 00:36:00,279 Speaker 1: that you have to be wary of, and in this 562 00:36:00,400 --> 00:36:05,840 Speaker 1: particular case, it's right for that. Meoli says that Melville 563 00:36:05,960 --> 00:36:09,239 Speaker 1: might want to use people to rewrite his story to 564 00:36:09,360 --> 00:36:12,719 Speaker 1: paint him as a more stable and normal person, a 565 00:36:12,840 --> 00:36:17,359 Speaker 1: person more worthy of freedom. It's impossible to know Lee 566 00:36:17,360 --> 00:36:21,920 Speaker 1: Boyd Malvo's true intentions, but late last month he added 567 00:36:22,000 --> 00:36:25,719 Speaker 1: another chapter to his story, The man serving a life 568 00:36:25,760 --> 00:36:28,080 Speaker 1: sentence in prison for his role in the two thousand 569 00:36:28,160 --> 00:36:31,680 Speaker 1: to Sniper's Free that terrorized Washington, d C. Is now 570 00:36:31,719 --> 00:36:36,920 Speaker 1: a married man. On March six, Lee Boyd Malvo married 571 00:36:36,960 --> 00:36:40,840 Speaker 1: Sable Noel Nap at a small ceremony inside Red Onion 572 00:36:40,880 --> 00:36:44,680 Speaker 1: State Prison. Nap is a social activist and granddaughter of 573 00:36:44,719 --> 00:36:48,520 Speaker 1: Bill Nap, a prominent real estate developer in Iowa. We 574 00:36:48,640 --> 00:36:52,680 Speaker 1: reached out to Nap for comment but received no reply. 575 00:37:08,480 --> 00:37:12,280 Speaker 1: Malvo's marriage disable Naps suggests that he intends to build 576 00:37:12,280 --> 00:37:15,480 Speaker 1: a life beyond his prison confines, and that if he 577 00:37:15,520 --> 00:37:18,960 Speaker 1: were released, he might have some sort of support system 578 00:37:19,000 --> 00:37:22,880 Speaker 1: in place. That's something a parole board might view favorably, 579 00:37:23,640 --> 00:37:28,279 Speaker 1: and perhaps it's something that Malvo things could increase his 580 00:37:28,440 --> 00:37:32,280 Speaker 1: chances of getting parole. I had dreams at one point, 581 00:37:33,160 --> 00:37:37,640 Speaker 1: I wanted to do great brinks. I had a lot 582 00:37:37,680 --> 00:37:39,400 Speaker 1: of ti I had a lot of friends who thought, 583 00:37:39,440 --> 00:37:42,880 Speaker 1: you know, you're gonna be known some day. But no 584 00:37:42,920 --> 00:37:46,000 Speaker 1: one would think not for this, not for this, Because 585 00:37:46,880 --> 00:37:48,799 Speaker 1: when I set my mind to something, I always had 586 00:37:48,800 --> 00:37:51,600 Speaker 1: a one point of focus, you know, and he do 587 00:37:51,840 --> 00:37:53,719 Speaker 1: days I was going to school adding it for two days. 588 00:37:54,040 --> 00:37:56,640 Speaker 1: I didn't complain to my classmates. I wouldn't school took 589 00:37:56,680 --> 00:37:58,399 Speaker 1: the same test day, didn't did the best I could. 590 00:37:59,120 --> 00:38:01,480 Speaker 1: I stud themastry life. When my landlord kick me out, 591 00:38:01,520 --> 00:38:04,120 Speaker 1: turn the light off. You know, I did everything I 592 00:38:04,160 --> 00:38:09,600 Speaker 1: could and my best failed. And in life it works 593 00:38:09,600 --> 00:38:12,160 Speaker 1: out like that. Something we would like, the thing that 594 00:38:12,160 --> 00:38:14,000 Speaker 1: we're logical, But if you sit for ten minutes and 595 00:38:14,000 --> 00:38:18,440 Speaker 1: look at your thought process, it's random feelings and thoughts 596 00:38:18,440 --> 00:38:23,720 Speaker 1: about different things you've seen and heard, read and witness. 597 00:38:24,120 --> 00:38:27,680 Speaker 1: We're not logical. We're moved by our deepest sentiments, and 598 00:38:27,719 --> 00:38:31,439 Speaker 1: then for most part we we think about in rational life. 599 00:38:31,520 --> 00:38:34,120 Speaker 1: Late when we look at the world we're living today, 600 00:38:34,560 --> 00:38:36,880 Speaker 1: most people move off that feeling, that sentiment. What we 601 00:38:37,040 --> 00:38:40,600 Speaker 1: see you, whether it's wittingly or unmated, whether we know 602 00:38:40,760 --> 00:38:44,200 Speaker 1: we don't know, whether it's conscious owners and unconscious drives. 603 00:38:44,840 --> 00:38:48,480 Speaker 1: That's what we're gonna ask them. Whatever happens with Malvo, 604 00:38:49,160 --> 00:38:53,760 Speaker 1: his earliest chance of parole is in two at that point, 605 00:38:54,200 --> 00:38:57,600 Speaker 1: twenty years while that passed since he was arrested. That 606 00:38:57,640 --> 00:39:01,800 Speaker 1: means nearly twenty years since the attack that paralyze the nation. 607 00:39:04,239 --> 00:39:08,759 Speaker 1: The way that we live our daily lives. Now, you know, 608 00:39:08,840 --> 00:39:12,480 Speaker 1: we are a much more fearful people. This is journalist 609 00:39:12,560 --> 00:39:15,839 Speaker 1: and historian Garrett Graf. He says that While the DC 610 00:39:16,000 --> 00:39:19,960 Speaker 1: attacks did come to an end, the impact has lingered on. 611 00:39:20,800 --> 00:39:24,840 Speaker 1: Now we see these videos, for instance, of a motorcycle 612 00:39:24,960 --> 00:39:29,680 Speaker 1: backfiring in Times Square and everybody runs for their life. 613 00:39:30,400 --> 00:39:36,320 Speaker 1: The terror threat has shifted from you know, these large 614 00:39:36,360 --> 00:39:40,920 Speaker 1: scale attacks carried out by international groups like al Qaeda, 615 00:39:41,040 --> 00:39:47,920 Speaker 1: like nine eleven, and is much more about almost unpreventable 616 00:39:48,000 --> 00:39:54,000 Speaker 1: attacks on daily life. Mass shootings at schools, at churches, 617 00:39:54,120 --> 00:40:00,560 Speaker 1: at movie theaters, These small scale attacks that are utterly 618 00:40:00,600 --> 00:40:06,080 Speaker 1: devastating thanks to the firepower of assault weapons, and that 619 00:40:06,480 --> 00:40:11,280 Speaker 1: have become just part of daily life in America in 620 00:40:11,320 --> 00:40:16,560 Speaker 1: a way that was unrecognizable or would be unrecognizable to 621 00:40:17,000 --> 00:40:22,359 Speaker 1: the America before Columbine and before nine eleven. Graph says 622 00:40:22,400 --> 00:40:25,560 Speaker 1: that the DC sniper shootings were one of the first 623 00:40:25,760 --> 00:40:29,719 Speaker 1: of these new types of terror attacks. This was not 624 00:40:29,800 --> 00:40:32,000 Speaker 1: a mass shooting in the way that we think of 625 00:40:32,120 --> 00:40:34,520 Speaker 1: mass shootings, but I think it was a big change 626 00:40:34,560 --> 00:40:37,279 Speaker 1: in the way that people sort of thought about their 627 00:40:37,320 --> 00:40:42,000 Speaker 1: safety in public space. Graph also wonders why when we 628 00:40:42,080 --> 00:40:45,720 Speaker 1: look back on the early two thousands, the DC sniper 629 00:40:45,800 --> 00:40:51,160 Speaker 1: story is often forgotten or overlooked. It gets lost for 630 00:40:51,239 --> 00:40:54,560 Speaker 1: a couple of different reasons. I mean, one the suspects 631 00:40:54,640 --> 00:40:57,400 Speaker 1: and the motive end up being just sort of weird, 632 00:40:57,600 --> 00:41:01,000 Speaker 1: and so you know, there was no real political motive 633 00:41:01,160 --> 00:41:05,360 Speaker 1: attached to it. It wasn't part of the terror threat 634 00:41:05,520 --> 00:41:09,120 Speaker 1: that we traditionally thought about at the time in terms 635 00:41:09,120 --> 00:41:12,680 Speaker 1: of Islamic extremism. And then, you know, the sad truth 636 00:41:12,760 --> 00:41:15,640 Speaker 1: of it is, for as many people who were killed 637 00:41:15,680 --> 00:41:20,719 Speaker 1: and injured back then by the DC sniper mass shootings 638 00:41:20,920 --> 00:41:24,479 Speaker 1: are such a regular part of American life now that 639 00:41:25,120 --> 00:41:31,040 Speaker 1: just gets lost in a casualty toll of unthinkable proportions 640 00:41:31,080 --> 00:41:34,360 Speaker 1: in the years since. Well, that may be true for 641 00:41:34,400 --> 00:41:38,640 Speaker 1: the general public, many people directly impacted by the case 642 00:41:38,840 --> 00:41:42,840 Speaker 1: will never forget. The life of every person involved in 643 00:41:42,880 --> 00:41:47,120 Speaker 1: the DC sniper attacks was changed forever, and each of 644 00:41:47,120 --> 00:41:54,279 Speaker 1: those individuals deals with that trauma differently. At first, I 645 00:41:54,360 --> 00:41:57,279 Speaker 1: hated for anybody to say it was God's will, No, 646 00:41:57,800 --> 00:42:00,440 Speaker 1: it was God's wealth, because it just did not resonate 647 00:42:00,480 --> 00:42:02,239 Speaker 1: with me. How could have been God's will? It was 648 00:42:02,320 --> 00:42:07,040 Speaker 1: not God's will. This is Ola Martin Cooksley again, sister 649 00:42:07,160 --> 00:42:10,880 Speaker 1: of sniper victim James Martin, and I still don't think 650 00:42:10,880 --> 00:42:14,160 Speaker 1: it was God's will, But I think that people can 651 00:42:14,320 --> 00:42:19,520 Speaker 1: over override God's will. Sometimes I know that I will 652 00:42:19,560 --> 00:42:22,880 Speaker 1: see Jim again someday, and the older I get, the 653 00:42:22,920 --> 00:42:26,760 Speaker 1: closer I know I'm getting to that day. So um, 654 00:42:26,800 --> 00:42:29,880 Speaker 1: I look at it more like something that happened. It 655 00:42:30,400 --> 00:42:36,239 Speaker 1: changed me, it broke me, But it's not something I 656 00:42:36,320 --> 00:42:40,640 Speaker 1: struggle against the very thought. I mean, I don't scream 657 00:42:40,680 --> 00:42:43,040 Speaker 1: at God or anything anymore like I did right first. 658 00:42:44,760 --> 00:42:49,200 Speaker 1: I don't think there's ever actually closure, because you always 659 00:42:49,239 --> 00:42:53,800 Speaker 1: wonder why, you know, why did this happen? Why? Why him? 660 00:42:53,840 --> 00:42:56,120 Speaker 1: You know, a little boy born in St. Louis, he 661 00:42:56,320 --> 00:42:59,120 Speaker 1: ends up in a grocery store parking lot in Wait 662 00:42:59,200 --> 00:43:02,160 Speaker 1: and Maryland. What could have happened that could have kept 663 00:43:02,239 --> 00:43:04,359 Speaker 1: him from being there? And that kind of thing. So 664 00:43:04,440 --> 00:43:08,560 Speaker 1: it's it's not really closure. I am at peace. Ola 665 00:43:08,640 --> 00:43:13,120 Speaker 1: says it's impossible to completely escape the memories, but she's 666 00:43:13,200 --> 00:43:17,840 Speaker 1: learned how to turn those experiences into positive changes. My 667 00:43:17,920 --> 00:43:21,640 Speaker 1: grandchildren and I have all marched in in marches for 668 00:43:22,160 --> 00:43:26,400 Speaker 1: gun reform and gun laws and things. We continue to 669 00:43:26,440 --> 00:43:29,480 Speaker 1: do that. Even though some of my grandchildren never met Jim, 670 00:43:29,520 --> 00:43:33,240 Speaker 1: they still feel passionate about it. That makes me feel 671 00:43:33,360 --> 00:43:36,399 Speaker 1: very good too, that we can march and we can 672 00:43:36,440 --> 00:43:39,840 Speaker 1: say what we think about that guns shouldn't be on 673 00:43:39,960 --> 00:43:43,120 Speaker 1: the street or anything, especially that kind of gun that 674 00:43:43,320 --> 00:43:48,080 Speaker 1: was a Bushmaster, which he should never have had. Nobody 675 00:43:48,080 --> 00:43:51,719 Speaker 1: should have that kind of a gun for anything. Not 676 00:43:51,920 --> 00:43:55,560 Speaker 1: long after the DC attacks, family members of aid of 677 00:43:55,600 --> 00:44:00,440 Speaker 1: the victims sued Bushmaster Firearms and Bulls Eye Shoot Supply, 678 00:44:01,000 --> 00:44:05,520 Speaker 1: where the rifle was stolen from. At the time, Bull's 679 00:44:05,560 --> 00:44:08,880 Speaker 1: Eye owner Brian borg Gelt said he never knew the 680 00:44:08,920 --> 00:44:12,719 Speaker 1: gun was missing. An a t F investigation discovered that 681 00:44:12,760 --> 00:44:16,440 Speaker 1: the store could not account for over two hundred missing 682 00:44:16,440 --> 00:44:21,960 Speaker 1: guns and revoked bore Gelt's license to sell firearms. The 683 00:44:22,040 --> 00:44:25,879 Speaker 1: lawsuit with Bushmaster was settled out of court, with Bushmaster 684 00:44:25,960 --> 00:44:30,360 Speaker 1: paying two point five million dollars split between the victims families. 685 00:44:31,400 --> 00:44:35,440 Speaker 1: Sonya Wills, the mother of victim Conrad Johnson, spoke to 686 00:44:35,680 --> 00:44:39,520 Speaker 1: w t o P News after the settlement and said quote, 687 00:44:40,160 --> 00:44:42,680 Speaker 1: I think a message was delivered that you should be 688 00:44:42,719 --> 00:44:47,120 Speaker 1: responsible and accountable for the actions of irresponsible people when 689 00:44:47,120 --> 00:44:49,960 Speaker 1: you make these guns and put them in their hands. 690 00:44:53,120 --> 00:44:56,760 Speaker 1: While some got involved in activism, others decided to write 691 00:44:56,800 --> 00:45:01,040 Speaker 1: books after the story was over. None was more controversial 692 00:45:01,080 --> 00:45:04,160 Speaker 1: than the book by Charles Moose, the chief of police 693 00:45:04,160 --> 00:45:06,960 Speaker 1: for Montgomery County at the time of the d C shootings. 694 00:45:07,920 --> 00:45:10,920 Speaker 1: Moose accepted a hefty book deal shortly after the attacks, 695 00:45:11,640 --> 00:45:14,880 Speaker 1: but Moose was criticized for attempting to profit from his 696 00:45:14,960 --> 00:45:19,160 Speaker 1: work as a public officer. The Montgomery County Ethics Commission 697 00:45:19,239 --> 00:45:23,520 Speaker 1: initially rejected an exemption for Moose, saying it's prohibited for 698 00:45:23,560 --> 00:45:27,520 Speaker 1: employees to quote use the prestige of office for private gain. 699 00:45:28,680 --> 00:45:32,520 Speaker 1: Moose published his book anyway, but he ultimately resigned as 700 00:45:32,600 --> 00:45:35,600 Speaker 1: chief of police and moved to Hawaii to work as 701 00:45:35,640 --> 00:45:40,120 Speaker 1: a beat cop. Another person to write about his experience 702 00:45:40,280 --> 00:45:43,920 Speaker 1: was the officer in charge of the takedown, now retired 703 00:45:44,000 --> 00:45:48,880 Speaker 1: Maryland State Police Lieutenant David Reichenball. After retiring, he wrote 704 00:45:48,920 --> 00:45:52,120 Speaker 1: the book in Pursuit The Hunt for the Beltway Snipers. 705 00:45:52,960 --> 00:45:55,400 Speaker 1: I wrote the book primarily because I felt that the 706 00:45:55,400 --> 00:45:57,600 Speaker 1: true story had to be captured as to how we 707 00:45:57,680 --> 00:46:01,360 Speaker 1: got him. We all came together and we were cooperating 708 00:46:01,360 --> 00:46:05,600 Speaker 1: and working with each other like never before. The FBI, 709 00:46:05,840 --> 00:46:10,440 Speaker 1: a t F, Montgomery County, Baltimore City Police Department, Metropolitan 710 00:46:10,480 --> 00:46:13,520 Speaker 1: Police Department, and of course when you work together, you 711 00:46:13,640 --> 00:46:16,600 Speaker 1: break bread together, you maybe drink a beer together. You 712 00:46:16,680 --> 00:46:19,040 Speaker 1: get to know each other, and all of a sudden, 713 00:46:19,080 --> 00:46:24,680 Speaker 1: you're no longer competitors your comrades. Hey, I got your back, 714 00:46:24,719 --> 00:46:28,000 Speaker 1: you got mine, which is the way it's supposed to be. 715 00:46:28,600 --> 00:46:34,000 Speaker 1: Those were one thousand highly dedicated police officers that give 716 00:46:34,040 --> 00:46:36,279 Speaker 1: a damn. And if there's anything that the public needs 717 00:46:36,320 --> 00:46:39,719 Speaker 1: to take out of this is your cops, whether they're 718 00:46:39,760 --> 00:46:44,040 Speaker 1: your local police department, your state, of your federal point 719 00:46:44,160 --> 00:46:47,839 Speaker 1: nine percent of us care. We care about you, we 720 00:46:47,920 --> 00:46:51,640 Speaker 1: care about protecting you, and that's what it's all about. 721 00:46:54,040 --> 00:46:58,000 Speaker 1: Mildred Mohammed now works as a professional public speaker. She 722 00:46:58,080 --> 00:47:02,919 Speaker 1: talks to audiences around the world surviving domestic abuse as 723 00:47:03,000 --> 00:47:07,400 Speaker 1: a once victim who became a survivor and now I 724 00:47:07,440 --> 00:47:11,719 Speaker 1: am a warrior on the issues of domestic abuse and violence. 725 00:47:12,680 --> 00:47:16,960 Speaker 1: I have found that it is important to reach back 726 00:47:17,360 --> 00:47:21,680 Speaker 1: to help others men and women who feel that the 727 00:47:21,800 --> 00:47:26,480 Speaker 1: relationship that they are in is abusive. Eight percent of 728 00:47:26,560 --> 00:47:30,120 Speaker 1: victims do not have physical scars to prove that they 729 00:47:30,160 --> 00:47:36,520 Speaker 1: are victims, although do I choose to concentrate on the 730 00:47:36,719 --> 00:47:41,880 Speaker 1: eight percent, and it is my mission to shift the 731 00:47:42,080 --> 00:47:47,839 Speaker 1: thinking of society to understand that you do not have 732 00:47:47,920 --> 00:47:51,440 Speaker 1: to have physical scars to be a victim or a 733 00:47:51,480 --> 00:47:56,480 Speaker 1: survivor of domestic violence. In the coming weeks, Monster will 734 00:47:56,520 --> 00:48:00,400 Speaker 1: feature a bonus episode about military Mohammad and her message 735 00:48:00,440 --> 00:48:06,200 Speaker 1: to victims around the world. Meanwhile, Lee Boyd Malvo remains 736 00:48:06,280 --> 00:48:11,200 Speaker 1: behind bars at Red Onion State Penitentiary. Has mentioned he 737 00:48:11,280 --> 00:48:14,640 Speaker 1: will be eligible for parole in Virginia in two thousand 738 00:48:14,719 --> 00:48:18,600 Speaker 1: twenty two. Malville has not given a public interview since 739 00:48:18,640 --> 00:48:22,640 Speaker 1: two thousand twelve. However, this team has reached out to 740 00:48:22,719 --> 00:48:29,360 Speaker 1: Malvo and will continue to do so. Finally, the surviving 741 00:48:29,480 --> 00:48:34,280 Speaker 1: victims continue to live on, including John Gaida, the victims 742 00:48:34,280 --> 00:48:38,200 Speaker 1: shot in Hammond, Louisiana in two thousand two. When I 743 00:48:38,239 --> 00:48:41,840 Speaker 1: did go back to work, I found like a prayer 744 00:48:42,360 --> 00:48:48,800 Speaker 1: that I really took to heart, just appreciating everything about life. 745 00:48:49,680 --> 00:48:53,480 Speaker 1: He takes for granted, so many things. Even grass just 746 00:48:53,719 --> 00:48:57,160 Speaker 1: looked amazing to me. It's just like it had a 747 00:48:57,200 --> 00:49:02,239 Speaker 1: new meaning, the blades of grass, which is beautiful. I mean, 748 00:49:02,320 --> 00:49:05,040 Speaker 1: I just couldn't believe I've been shot and I was 749 00:49:05,080 --> 00:49:10,120 Speaker 1: still alive. I just think of the miracle that my 750 00:49:10,239 --> 00:49:13,680 Speaker 1: life was spared and that there must have been a 751 00:49:13,800 --> 00:49:18,960 Speaker 1: reason for sparing me. We're prayerful and Christians, so we 752 00:49:19,320 --> 00:49:22,799 Speaker 1: especially pray for the families who did lose loved ones. 753 00:49:24,520 --> 00:49:26,560 Speaker 1: One of the people to lose a loved one was 754 00:49:26,640 --> 00:49:31,240 Speaker 1: Nelson Rivera, whose wife Lorie and Louis Rivera, was shot 755 00:49:31,239 --> 00:49:36,960 Speaker 1: and killed on October three, two. My life changed completely, 756 00:49:37,840 --> 00:49:43,480 Speaker 1: you know, after seventeen years. It's just it never goes away, 757 00:49:45,040 --> 00:49:49,560 Speaker 1: never goes away. You know. Now I'm a little bit better, 758 00:49:49,680 --> 00:49:53,480 Speaker 1: you know, but I always think about her all the time. 759 00:49:55,000 --> 00:50:00,279 Speaker 1: How my life will be now? Is she's still here? Yeah, 760 00:50:01,680 --> 00:50:04,719 Speaker 1: you know, I just thinks to God. You know, Joselyne 761 00:50:04,719 --> 00:50:09,040 Speaker 1: grew up and you know now she's twenty. She helped 762 00:50:09,080 --> 00:50:11,880 Speaker 1: the best for her. I guess that's what her mom wants. 763 00:50:13,600 --> 00:50:17,560 Speaker 1: I have, you know, pictures, I have some clothes. I 764 00:50:17,680 --> 00:50:22,080 Speaker 1: have her her wedding dress. Keep it with me until 765 00:50:22,280 --> 00:50:25,399 Speaker 1: you know, when you're thinking married she wanted to wear. 766 00:50:25,680 --> 00:50:36,520 Speaker 1: You know, something like that that happens to you, you'll 767 00:50:36,560 --> 00:50:40,839 Speaker 1: never forget it. Here's Paul Larufa again, the victims shot 768 00:50:40,880 --> 00:50:45,120 Speaker 1: on September five, two two. I've always said you're never 769 00:50:45,600 --> 00:50:48,360 Speaker 1: over it. Over it in the sense that well, it 770 00:50:48,440 --> 00:50:51,879 Speaker 1: was nothing. I barely remember what happened. It was like 771 00:50:52,080 --> 00:50:55,279 Speaker 1: tripping on the sidewalk. It was just nothing. That's just 772 00:50:55,480 --> 00:50:59,400 Speaker 1: never gonna happen. It doesn't haunt me, and it doesn't 773 00:50:59,800 --> 00:51:04,239 Speaker 1: affect me negatively. I like to think that it affected 774 00:51:04,239 --> 00:51:09,960 Speaker 1: me positively. People say all the time, well lived it today. 775 00:51:10,080 --> 00:51:14,160 Speaker 1: You never know, you could be dead tomorrow. I experienced 776 00:51:14,200 --> 00:51:17,560 Speaker 1: it where it could have ended in a split second. 777 00:51:18,480 --> 00:51:21,400 Speaker 1: So that's something positive that you think about that you 778 00:51:21,440 --> 00:51:24,160 Speaker 1: know it can end any time, so you do make 779 00:51:24,200 --> 00:51:27,880 Speaker 1: it affect how you act. You try to act maybe 780 00:51:27,880 --> 00:51:31,279 Speaker 1: differently than you did before. I've gone on with my 781 00:51:31,360 --> 00:51:35,160 Speaker 1: life and enjoy life, and it just hasn't affected me negatively. 782 00:51:35,719 --> 00:51:38,920 Speaker 1: That's a good thing Larufus has. The anniversary of the 783 00:51:38,960 --> 00:51:43,160 Speaker 1: shooting is a special day every year, September five. My 784 00:51:43,200 --> 00:51:49,200 Speaker 1: brother calls me at ten fifteen at night, UH two 785 00:51:50,200 --> 00:51:56,840 Speaker 1: celebrate my survival because he he's the more outgoing about things. 786 00:51:57,800 --> 00:52:01,560 Speaker 1: My two sisters and my other brother are more in 787 00:52:01,600 --> 00:52:03,920 Speaker 1: the area of they don't like to talk about it 788 00:52:04,600 --> 00:52:06,840 Speaker 1: because they think it hurts me and and and and 789 00:52:06,960 --> 00:52:09,000 Speaker 1: it hurts them to talk about it. But my other 790 00:52:09,040 --> 00:52:14,920 Speaker 1: brother is more understanding of where I am. So my 791 00:52:14,960 --> 00:52:18,840 Speaker 1: wife and I have a toast, and my youngest brother 792 00:52:18,920 --> 00:52:23,640 Speaker 1: calls me and and we celebrate the fact not that 793 00:52:23,760 --> 00:52:27,200 Speaker 1: I got shot at that moment, but that I lived. 794 00:52:28,239 --> 00:52:31,280 Speaker 1: And so he calls me and says, glad you're alive, 795 00:52:31,840 --> 00:52:36,680 Speaker 1: and I say thanks, and we talked for a few minutes, 796 00:52:36,680 --> 00:52:49,879 Speaker 1: and and uh, that is emotional. The stories of these 797 00:52:49,880 --> 00:52:53,080 Speaker 1: survivors are just a few of the thousands of stories 798 00:52:53,160 --> 00:52:58,239 Speaker 1: surrounding the DC sniper saga. While making this podcast, it 799 00:52:58,320 --> 00:53:01,400 Speaker 1: seemed like nearly everyone we boak who had some story 800 00:53:01,560 --> 00:53:04,800 Speaker 1: or connection to the case, whether they lived in the 801 00:53:04,880 --> 00:53:07,560 Speaker 1: DC area at the time and remember having to pump 802 00:53:07,640 --> 00:53:11,120 Speaker 1: gas from behind a blue tarp, or knew someone who 803 00:53:11,160 --> 00:53:14,239 Speaker 1: was affected by the shootings. This was the story that 804 00:53:14,400 --> 00:53:17,600 Speaker 1: impacted the d C area and an entire nation in 805 00:53:17,719 --> 00:53:22,760 Speaker 1: chilling ways, and as we're seeing today, the after effects 806 00:53:22,760 --> 00:53:27,080 Speaker 1: continue to influence the daily lives in uncertain futures of 807 00:53:27,200 --> 00:53:31,480 Speaker 1: countless others. We also learned over the course of producing 808 00:53:31,520 --> 00:53:35,680 Speaker 1: this podcast that the lives of these killers are complex 809 00:53:35,760 --> 00:53:40,040 Speaker 1: as well. There are so many factors involved in their actions. 810 00:53:40,320 --> 00:53:42,640 Speaker 1: But I make sure to never lose sight of the 811 00:53:42,719 --> 00:53:46,360 Speaker 1: fact that the consequences of their actions are devastating for 812 00:53:46,520 --> 00:53:53,480 Speaker 1: victims and their loved ones. We are curious people, perhaps 813 00:53:53,800 --> 00:53:57,400 Speaker 1: morbidly so, we want to know more about the people 814 00:53:57,400 --> 00:54:01,440 Speaker 1: who kill and why they do it. We call the monsters, 815 00:54:01,480 --> 00:54:04,520 Speaker 1: I think because we can't come up with another term 816 00:54:04,560 --> 00:54:08,000 Speaker 1: that captures our shock, fear, and outrage at their actions. 817 00:54:09,080 --> 00:54:12,240 Speaker 1: As a journalist, I will continue to try to explain 818 00:54:12,280 --> 00:54:16,840 Speaker 1: the seemingly unexplainable, and I'll continue to ask you to 819 00:54:17,040 --> 00:54:20,360 Speaker 1: consider all the factors that go into building a life, 820 00:54:21,040 --> 00:54:26,480 Speaker 1: breaking a life, and destroying a life. Maybe when we 821 00:54:26,600 --> 00:54:30,360 Speaker 1: understand these complexities better, we can create a world with 822 00:54:30,400 --> 00:54:35,840 Speaker 1: a little more empathy, the world that's hopefully free of monsters. 823 00:54:37,120 --> 00:54:50,760 Speaker 1: I'm Tony Harris, and this is Monster DC Sniper. Monster 824 00:54:51,000 --> 00:54:54,800 Speaker 1: DC Sniper is a fifteen episode podcast hosted by Tony 825 00:54:54,880 --> 00:54:59,200 Speaker 1: Harris and produced by iHeart Radio and Tenderfoot TV. Matt 826 00:54:59,200 --> 00:55:02,319 Speaker 1: Frederick and Ol Williams our executive producers on behalf of 827 00:55:02,360 --> 00:55:06,440 Speaker 1: I Heart Radio, alongside producers Trevor Young, Ben Kieburn and 828 00:55:06,520 --> 00:55:10,759 Speaker 1: Josh Thain. Payne Lindsay and Donald Albright are executive producers 829 00:55:10,800 --> 00:55:14,920 Speaker 1: on behalf of Tenderfoot TV, alongside producers Meredith Steadman and 830 00:55:15,040 --> 00:55:19,680 Speaker 1: Christina Dana. Original music is by Makeup and Vanity Set. 831 00:55:20,360 --> 00:55:22,560 Speaker 1: If you haven't already, be sure to check out the 832 00:55:22,600 --> 00:55:26,320 Speaker 1: first two seasons at Lanta Monster and Monster the Zodiac Killer. 833 00:55:26,960 --> 00:55:30,200 Speaker 1: If you have questions or comments, email us at Monster 834 00:55:30,360 --> 00:55:33,359 Speaker 1: at i heeart media dot com, or you can call 835 00:55:33,480 --> 00:55:37,080 Speaker 1: us at one eight three three to eight five six 836 00:55:37,160 --> 00:55:46,000 Speaker 1: six six seven. Thanks for listening. Monster d C Sniper 837 00:55:46,120 --> 00:55:49,320 Speaker 1: does not end with today's finale. Be on the lookout 838 00:55:49,320 --> 00:55:52,759 Speaker 1: for upcoming bonus episodes, including an intimate discussion with the 839 00:55:52,800 --> 00:55:57,360 Speaker 1: ex wife of the DC Sniper, Mildrid Mohammed. In the meantime, 840 00:55:57,800 --> 00:56:00,040 Speaker 1: if you missed anything this season, we encourage you to 841 00:56:00,160 --> 00:56:03,040 Speaker 1: go back and re listen to earlier episodes of the show. 842 00:56:03,640 --> 00:56:06,880 Speaker 1: Your reviews make us better, so please leave your feedback 843 00:56:06,960 --> 00:56:11,160 Speaker 1: on Monster DC Sniper. Then if you would tell your 844 00:56:11,160 --> 00:56:15,240 Speaker 1: friends to go find Monster DC Sniper and subscribe now. 845 00:56:15,760 --> 00:56:18,560 Speaker 1: All episodes are available on the I Heart Radio app, 846 00:56:19,000 --> 00:56:22,360 Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts.