Speaker 1: You and Me Both is a production of I Heart Radio.
Speaker 1: I'm Hillary Clinton, and this is You and Me Both. Today,
Speaker 1: I am speaking with Secretary of State Tony B. Lincoln
Speaker 1: about the incredible challenges and opportunities that he is facing
Speaker 1: as our new Secretary of State. It's a thrill to
Speaker 1: see this serious, thoughtful diplomat assume this responsibility and bring
Speaker 1: all of the experiences of a whole lifetime, but especially
Speaker 1: his adult working life, to the State Department on behalf
Speaker 1: of our country. So Secretary, blink and welcome. I cannot
Speaker 1: express how pleased I am to have this chance to
Speaker 1: talk with you. Thank you. I could not be happier
Speaker 1: to be able to spend some time with you. I've
Speaker 1: had the good fortune to have spent a lot of
Speaker 1: time in these halls with you in the past, the
Speaker 1: White House, over many years, but it's particularly fun to
Speaker 1: be connected via the podcast. Oh I agree. So let
Speaker 1: me ask you what of your first few weeks as
Speaker 1: Secretary of State look like and felt like to you? Well,
Speaker 1: you know this better than anyone. It's a little bit
Speaker 1: like jumping onto a treadmill that's already moving in ten
Speaker 1: miles an hour, And partly it's just trying to hold on.
Speaker 1: But you know, we've obviously because of COVID, it's been
Speaker 1: a challenge, and there's a little bit of frustration that
Speaker 1: comes with that. I remember so well when you became secretary,
Speaker 1: you were off almost immediately on that airplane, visiting with
Speaker 1: working with engaging with our allies and partners and others
Speaker 1: around the world. I wish I could do the same thing,
Speaker 1: but we're grounded now. The good news is I've been
Speaker 1: burning up the phone lines. I've been saying that it's
Speaker 1: a good thing the departments on the family plan. Otherwise
Speaker 1: I put bankrupted the budget. So there's that. But of course,
Speaker 1: you know as well as anyone better than anyone, it's
Speaker 1: just not not the same thing. So I'm really looking
Speaker 1: forward to being able to get out there. But what's
Speaker 1: been so gratifying is, you know, because I've been doing
Speaker 1: this for for a while. I started working for President Clinton,
Speaker 1: uh and my first job was here at the State Department,
Speaker 1: working in the front office of the European Affairs Bureau,
Speaker 1: And so I've known the men and women of the
Speaker 1: Department for a long time. And the greatest pleasure I've
Speaker 1: had since I'm back is just reconnecting with people that
Speaker 1: you and I know so well. Well, I can imagine
Speaker 1: what that's like for them as well, Secretary, because it's
Speaker 1: been a tough four years for our Foreign service officers
Speaker 1: and our civil service officials, and it's important to do
Speaker 1: what you're doing, which is spending time with them, talking
Speaker 1: with them, listening to them. I read where you said
Speaker 1: you felt confident and humble, and I thought that was
Speaker 1: a really good combination. As you embark on this important job.
Speaker 1: You run a department with tens of thousands of Foreign
Speaker 1: Service officers, as I say, civil servant officials, and national
Speaker 1: employees out around the world, and you've got to figure
Speaker 1: out how you're going to make all of that work,
Speaker 1: especially since I think it's fair to say you're facing
Speaker 1: a deficit, a deficit of trust and a deficit of
Speaker 1: you know, leadership that the prior administration left you. So
Speaker 1: how are you trying to prioritize the myriad of challenges
Speaker 1: and opportunities that you're looking at. Well, you know, you're
Speaker 1: exactly right that, in a sense, the first challenge is
Speaker 1: actually the building the institution, the men and women of
Speaker 1: the department, the Foreign Service officers, the civil servants, and
Speaker 1: as you rightly point out, what we call locally employed staff,
Speaker 1: the thousands, the tens of thousands of extraordinary men and
Speaker 1: women from the countries that are hosting us who work
Speaker 1: with us and work force, and so one of the
Speaker 1: things that's been so important in this early going is
Speaker 1: to make it very clear to all of our colleagues
Speaker 1: that we're going to be relying and depending on them
Speaker 1: their expertise, their experience, their professionalism. And so I think
Speaker 1: one of the things we're gonna show and people will
Speaker 1: see in the weeks ahead as some of the senior
Speaker 1: appointments are made, we're going to be relying heavily on
Speaker 1: career professionals. They bring so much to the table, and
Speaker 1: it would be really to operate with our hands tied
Speaker 1: behind our backs if we didn't rely on that and
Speaker 1: use that. The other piece, when it comes to the
Speaker 1: institution itself, is, and this is something I feel very
Speaker 1: strongly about, we have to have a foreign service, we
Speaker 1: have to have career professionals, We have to have a
Speaker 1: state department that looks like the country it represents, and
Speaker 1: that's been a real deficiency for a long long time.
Speaker 1: So I'm about to appoint the very first Chief Diversity
Speaker 1: and Inclusion Officer will report directly of the Secretary of State.
Speaker 1: We're going to focus on making sure we're recruiting effectively,
Speaker 1: we're retaining people, and that there's actual accountability for making progress.
Speaker 1: If we get the human resource piece of this right,
Speaker 1: then we're going to be so much more effective around
Speaker 1: the world and representing the country and in carrying out
Speaker 1: the president's foreign policy. Well, starting with the work you've begun,
Speaker 1: I was fascinated about how both you and President Biden
Speaker 1: started close to home, reached out to our Canadian friends
Speaker 1: and our Mexican friends, And that's so important because establishing
Speaker 1: that strong relationship, especially during a time of COVID and
Speaker 1: obviously what we have going on our southern border, makes
Speaker 1: a lot of sense. But you and the President have
Speaker 1: both reached out to Europe. How are our friends and
Speaker 1: allies feeling with the new administration. Can you give us
Speaker 1: any early updates on that? Well, I think it's it's
Speaker 1: fair to say that there's been a very warm welcome
Speaker 1: for President Biden and for all of us who've who
Speaker 1: come along with him, and and you know, quite honestly,
Speaker 1: a a thirst almost palpable for American engagement, and this
Speaker 1: is what I've heard in conversation after conversation. That doesn't
Speaker 1: mean we don't have differences. We want to have problems
Speaker 1: with one of challenges, but I think there's a recognition
Speaker 1: that in fact they're better off when we're engaged, and
Speaker 1: of course we're better off what we're thinking about the
Speaker 1: world that we're facing in confronting. I think two things
Speaker 1: really stand out, and this is what animates the President's
Speaker 1: thinking and as a result animates are farm policy. The
Speaker 1: first is, you know, whether we like it or not,
Speaker 1: the world tends not to organize itself. And when we're
Speaker 1: engaged in leading, we can help advance our own interests
Speaker 1: in values. But when we're not, then one or two
Speaker 1: things is likely to happen. Either some other country is
Speaker 1: going to try to take our place, but probably not
Speaker 1: in a way that advances the interesting values of the
Speaker 1: American people, or maybe just as bad no one does.
Speaker 1: And then you've got a vacuum, and it's usually filled
Speaker 1: by bad things before it's filled by good things. So
Speaker 1: that premium on American engagement is really there. But the related,
Speaker 1: maybe flip side of that is and again I know
Speaker 1: this animated you so strongly as Secretary. When we look
Speaker 1: at the things that are really going to have an
Speaker 1: impact on our fellow citizens lives, whether it's it's climate change,
Speaker 1: whether it's this pandemic, whether it's the spread of a lethal,
Speaker 1: really dangerous weapon of mass destruction, we know that not
Speaker 1: a single one of those challenges can be effectively dealt
Speaker 1: with by any one country acting one, even the United States.
Speaker 1: And also that there really is no lall high enough
Speaker 1: or wide enough to guard against those problems. So the
Speaker 1: other premium we find is on cooperation and finding new
Speaker 1: ways to get countries to work with us and to
Speaker 1: work with them, And that's kind of where the State
Speaker 1: Department comes in. That's our job. The job of diplomats
Speaker 1: is to try to build that cooperation among countries to
Speaker 1: deal with the challenges that are actually going to have
Speaker 1: an impact on the lives of our fellow citizens. Well,
Speaker 1: that is exactly the definition of the job. And I
Speaker 1: hope that during your service that you, working with the
Speaker 1: President and others in the administration, can make that case
Speaker 1: more effectively, because it's always a challenge to talk to
Speaker 1: the American people about what it is diplomats do, what
Speaker 1: development means, why it makes a difference. People get the Pentagon,
Speaker 1: they get the Defense Department, but they're not quite sure
Speaker 1: about what the other stuff is. And to that point,
Speaker 1: I know that there are so many crises and conflicts
Speaker 1: that you are going to be facing, from Afghanistan to Ethiopia, Syria, Venezuela,
Speaker 1: and then some long term challenges posed by Russia and
Speaker 1: most particularly China. And I was interested in some of
Speaker 1: what you and the President have been saying about Russia
Speaker 1: and how you're going to try to really send a
Speaker 1: clear message to Vladimir Putin that you know, the former
Speaker 1: president has gone, we're going to be, you know, imposing
Speaker 1: costs and consequences for behavior that is really out of bounds. Well, unfortunately,
Speaker 1: we've seen that in so many different areas. And the
Speaker 1: bottom line is if we're not standing up strongly when
Speaker 1: our interests are being challenged or when our values are
Speaker 1: being challenged, that creates a feeling of impunity, and then
Speaker 1: the bad conduct continues and gets worse. But in any
Speaker 1: of these things, it's it's vitally important that we do
Speaker 1: it with our partners and allies. But just on Russia,
Speaker 1: we are in the midst of reviewing a series of
Speaker 1: egregious actions that they've taken. Whether it is this solar
Speaker 1: winds cyber attack that's been been written about, whether it
Speaker 1: is what they've done to one of Mr. Putin's leading
Speaker 1: political opponents, Alessia Navalni, using a chemical weapon to try
Speaker 1: to kill him, whether it is these reports of the
Speaker 1: Russians putting bounties on our troops in Afghanistan, whether it's
Speaker 1: something you are all too familiar with, interference in our elections.
Speaker 1: We are looking at all of this, and I can
Speaker 1: tell you with some confidence that we will take the
Speaker 1: appropriate actions as we see fit to make very clear
Speaker 1: that this kind of conduct is unacceptable for US, and
Speaker 1: we'll do it with our allies and partners. At the
Speaker 1: same time, you know, we have other important stakes, including
Speaker 1: with Russia. One of those is what we call in
Speaker 1: the business strategic stability, making sure that with our still
Speaker 1: significant arsenals, particularly of nuclear weapons, that we don't do
Speaker 1: things that actually make conflict and god forbid of nuclear
Speaker 1: exchange more likely. And so one of the very first
Speaker 1: things is, you know, the President Biden did is he
Speaker 1: extended the soul remaining but very important agreement between the
Speaker 1: United States and Russia the so called news Start agreement
Speaker 1: that puts significant limitations on our strategic nuclear arsenals, and
Speaker 1: that's a very good thing for both countries, and we'll
Speaker 1: look for opportunities to do more. But I think we
Speaker 1: have to be able to walk and chew gum at
Speaker 1: the same time stand up strongly against Russian aggression. Ukraine
Speaker 1: continues to be a huge problem given Russia's intervention there,
Speaker 1: but also look for opportunities if they present themselves to
Speaker 1: advance our security on things like nuclear weapons. We're taking
Speaker 1: a quick break, stay with us. It would also be
Speaker 1: really worth trying to get China for the first time
Speaker 1: into arms control agreements. How is the administration looking at China?
Speaker 1: Because again, we have to cooperate where we can on
Speaker 1: climate change, on global health, but then there's all the
Speaker 1: rest that we have to take some strong stands over.
Speaker 1: How are you thinking about China, Secretary? So as you
Speaker 1: know so well, it is both one of the most
Speaker 1: complicated relationships in the world and arguably one of the most,
Speaker 1: if not the most consequential, and I think it's important
Speaker 1: for people to see that there are different aspects to it.
Speaker 1: There's an adversarial aspect, increasingly because China has been acting
Speaker 1: more aggressively beyond its borders and unfortunately more repressively within
Speaker 1: its borders. There's certainly a competitive aspect to it, but
Speaker 1: there's also a cooperative one because on some big issues,
Speaker 1: including climate change, we both have an interest in finding
Speaker 1: ways to work together. But here's the common denominator. Whether
Speaker 1: it's the adversarial piece, whether it's the competitive piece, whether
Speaker 1: it's the cooper pies. We to be approaching China from
Speaker 1: a position of strength. And what I think that means
Speaker 1: is a few things. It means with our partners and allies,
Speaker 1: not without those alliances. Those partnerships are a source of
Speaker 1: strength in dealing with China. When we bring the collective
Speaker 1: weight of our partnerships and alliances to bear, it's a
Speaker 1: lot harder for China to ignore. Also, as we as
Speaker 1: we were talking about just a few minutes ago, being
Speaker 1: engaged and leaning in as opposed to abdicating our responsibilities
Speaker 1: and pulling out of all of these international organizations that
Speaker 1: are actually shaping the rules that we all have to
Speaker 1: live by. When we pull back, China fills in. When
Speaker 1: we're engaged and leading, that's a source of strength. Third
Speaker 1: is a source of strength for us to actually stand
Speaker 1: up for the values we believe in. So when we
Speaker 1: see in chinging weaker as being put into concentration camps,
Speaker 1: when we see democracy being trampled in Hong Kong, it's
Speaker 1: important that we stand up and point that out, that
Speaker 1: we don't ignore it, and that we get others to
Speaker 1: join us. And then, finally, and maybe maybe most importantly,
Speaker 1: we have to be investing in ourselves, in our own people,
Speaker 1: in our own workers, in our own companies, in our
Speaker 1: own competitiveness. Because if we do that, and if we
Speaker 1: get a reasonably fair and level playing field, we're going
Speaker 1: to do just fine in the competition. I have tremendous confidence.
Speaker 1: But if we don't do it, that's going to allow
Speaker 1: China to be acting from position strength and not the
Speaker 1: United States. Oh and there's a last thing too that
Speaker 1: I think it is so important. We also have to
Speaker 1: be strong and resilient in terms of our own democracy,
Speaker 1: because when we're questioning our own institutions, when we're attacking
Speaker 1: each other, that is the surest way to undermine the
Speaker 1: strength that we need to bring to this strategic competition
Speaker 1: with China. So I hope, particularly because this really is
Speaker 1: in many ways of bipartisan challenge. I hope that we
Speaker 1: can come together so we can do this smartly, effectively
Speaker 1: and advance the interests of the country. Well, it needs
Speaker 1: to be bipartisan, even nonpartisan, because how we structure our
Speaker 1: relationship with China going forward will have such serious implications.
Speaker 1: And you have several times stressed the importance of our alliances,
Speaker 1: working with our partners, and the significance of international agreements.
Speaker 1: And I was really delighted to see that the administration
Speaker 1: quickly went back into the Paris Accord on climate change,
Speaker 1: and I know you'll be working very hard on that,
Speaker 1: and you're also working to see if we can somehow
Speaker 1: reconstitute the Iran Agreement that you know, put a lid
Speaker 1: on Iran's efforts to get a nuclear arsenal. And just
Speaker 1: to go to that point you made about working with others,
Speaker 1: you know, when I was in the Senate for eight years,
Speaker 1: I voted for every sanction against Iran that was ever
Speaker 1: put up for a vote, and you were there working
Speaker 1: with Senator Biden at that time, and we did everything
Speaker 1: we could to try to limit their options, to put
Speaker 1: pressure on them, but without the world it didn't matter.
Speaker 1: And so As Secretary, I started working to put together
Speaker 1: international sanction, which then the U N. Security Council passed
Speaker 1: in June, and we began negotiations which were then completed
Speaker 1: in the second term of President Obama. And what people
Speaker 1: who pop up and talk about international agreements often really
Speaker 1: do an injustice to our understanding, is to act as
Speaker 1: though there's a perfect agreement somewhere and all we have
Speaker 1: to do is, you know, pick up a rock and
Speaker 1: find it. You know, negotiations are difficult, they are time consuming,
Speaker 1: and oftentimes you don't get a PC, but you get
Speaker 1: as much as you can. And with the Iran Agreement,
Speaker 1: I think we got a long way towards stopping Iran
Speaker 1: from getting a nuclear weapon, all of which was then
Speaker 1: thrown out the window by the Trump administration. So do
Speaker 1: you look to see how you're going to be able
Speaker 1: to bring that alliance back together, which included China and
Speaker 1: Russia by the way, UH to try to prevent Iran
Speaker 1: from getting a nuclear weapon resolutely. And and to your point,
Speaker 1: I think it really is important to understand that by definition,
Speaker 1: negotiations are always going to be imperfect. No one gets
Speaker 1: of what they want. But as President Biden likes to say,
Speaker 1: don't compare me to to the almighty compared to the alternative,
Speaker 1: and that's really important. So the foundation that you set
Speaker 1: first in the Senate but then as a Secretary of
Speaker 1: State is what allowed us to get the agreement that
Speaker 1: we reached, and I feel very strongly that that was
Speaker 1: the right thing to do, because, as we both know,
Speaker 1: before the agreement, Iran was speeding toward the day when
Speaker 1: it would have the ability to produce enough to all
Speaker 1: material for a nuclear weapon on very short order time
Speaker 1: we reached the agreement, it was getting down towards weeks,
Speaker 1: and that would have given us a very very hard
Speaker 1: choice to face either between allowing that to happen and
Speaker 1: Iran having a nuclear weapon or being on the threshold
Speaker 1: of having one and thus feeling it connect with even
Speaker 1: greater impunity, or maybe having to take military action with
Speaker 1: all of the possible unintended consequences that flow from that,
Speaker 1: to deal with it. And so I think the best
Speaker 1: answer that we came up with was the agreement that
Speaker 1: that was reached that put the nuclear program in a
Speaker 1: box and that cut off its pathways to being able
Speaker 1: to produce the material it would need for a weapon,
Speaker 1: and push that so called breakout time past one year,
Speaker 1: so that if they did start back in that direction,
Speaker 1: we've got plenty of time to organize the world and
Speaker 1: to do something about it. We had very strong sanctions
Speaker 1: that were poised to snap back if Iran violated the agreement,
Speaker 1: and maybe most important, the most intrusive monitoring an inspections
Speaker 1: regime that we've ever had for any arms control agreement,
Speaker 1: and our own intelligence folks said that Iran was respecting
Speaker 1: its commitments, even it's doing a lot of other things
Speaker 1: that we don't like. So now after we got out
Speaker 1: of the deal, Rand felt, well, we can go ahead
Speaker 1: and no longer comply with the obligations that we undertook,
Speaker 1: and it is now getting back to that point where
Speaker 1: it could produce the seal material for a weapon on
Speaker 1: very short order. So I think we have an interest
Speaker 1: in putting that back in a box and then seeing
Speaker 1: if we can actually build something even longer and stronger
Speaker 1: in terms of the duration of the agreement, and also
Speaker 1: dealing with some of the other actions that around takes
Speaker 1: that we have a real problem with ballistic missiles, the
Speaker 1: actions that takes in its neighborhood. The good news is
Speaker 1: because we've made a clear commitment that we're prepared to
Speaker 1: re engage in diplomacy. The very allies and partners we
Speaker 1: need and who are alienated from us because we got
Speaker 1: out of the diplomacy business are now back with us,
Speaker 1: and that means they're also prepared to join us in
Speaker 1: taking strong action is necessary against some of the other
Speaker 1: things Around does that that we don't like. So we'll see,
Speaker 1: we're a long way from getting back to where we were.
Speaker 1: We we don't know what around will do or won't do,
Speaker 1: but I think that it offers at least the possibility
Speaker 1: of dealing with the nuclear problem, uh and then hopefully
Speaker 1: dealing with some of the other problems. When I look
Speaker 1: around the world and I think about everything on your
Speaker 1: plate and all that you are going to be addressing
Speaker 1: as Secretary of State, it's these transnational, global problems that
Speaker 1: you cannot imagine dealing with unless you have the kind
Speaker 1: of attitude you've just expressed, Mr Secretary. You know, I
Speaker 1: worry a lot about the flow of migration, which we
Speaker 1: know is going to be exacerbated by climate change, and
Speaker 1: we need to bring the world together to do something
Speaker 1: we we used to do, you know, decades ago kind
Speaker 1: of look ahead somewhat, you know, convene some international efforts
Speaker 1: on several fronts. One, obviously, what do we do about
Speaker 1: refugee flow? How do we try to deal with the
Speaker 1: problems in the host country. In our hemisphere, it's primarily
Speaker 1: now Central America, even more than Mexico, that is unfortunately
Speaker 1: seeing people flee for a better life moving north toward
Speaker 1: our border. In Europe, it's you know, Syria, it's North Africa. Uh,
Speaker 1: it's Afghanistan. Can you think about some of the big
Speaker 1: areas that maybe on a longer time frame, US Secretary,
Speaker 1: working with your counterparts around the world, could begin a
Speaker 1: process of trying to figure out what do we do
Speaker 1: about refugees, What do we do about rebuilding the w
Speaker 1: h O, getting better prepared for the next pandemic? What
Speaker 1: do we do to defend democracy? Those are three big
Speaker 1: kind of cross cutting issues. Yeah. Absolutely, And it really
Speaker 1: does go back to what we started talking about, which
Speaker 1: is both having a sense of humility and confidence at
Speaker 1: the same time. I think they're flip sides at the
Speaker 1: same point. Humility because we certainly don't get everything right ourselves,
Speaker 1: and a lot of these problems are also not in
Speaker 1: the first instance, necessarily about us, even as they affect us,
Speaker 1: and we can't just flip a switch and expect to
Speaker 1: solve them. But but confidence, because I still believe profoundly
Speaker 1: as I know you did, that when the United States
Speaker 1: is acting at its best, we still have a greater
Speaker 1: ability than any country on Earth to mobilize others in
Speaker 1: collective action, to bring other countries together to try to
Speaker 1: solve problems. And the big ones you just outlined are
Speaker 1: actually having a real effect on the lives of our
Speaker 1: fellow citizens, so we have an interest in in doing
Speaker 1: something about them. The refugee situation, we have more people
Speaker 1: on the move around the planet than at any time
Speaker 1: since World War Two, about seventy million who have been
Speaker 1: felt compelled to leave their homes in one place or another.
Speaker 1: That's the magnitude of the problem, and by definition, no
Speaker 1: one country can tackle it alone. To your point, I
Speaker 1: think there's a lot that we can do collectively. For example,
Speaker 1: First of all, we want to try to do what
Speaker 1: we can with other countries to prevent and if necessary,
Speaker 1: end conflicts that are in many places forcing people to flee. Second,
Speaker 1: these countries that take them in remarkable generosity. If you
Speaker 1: you mentioned Syrian refugees. As you know, if you go
Speaker 1: to Turkey, to Lebanon to Jordan's you see populations that
Speaker 1: are in some cases a quarter of the population is
Speaker 1: a Syrian refugee. That puts huge strain on local economies,
Speaker 1: on local resources. So I think collectively we have an
Speaker 1: interest in helping these countries the first refuge be able
Speaker 1: to care for the refugees who they have, because on average,
Speaker 1: once someone's refugee, they tend to stay that way for
Speaker 1: well over a decade. So we have to help these countries,
Speaker 1: and then we have to put in place the support.
Speaker 1: The financing in the United States has to do it's
Speaker 1: part as well. We have long been a beacon for
Speaker 1: refugees around the world. That's something that I know the
Speaker 1: President is committed to restoring. But we also have to
Speaker 1: be very mindful of our own orders, our own security,
Speaker 1: and we're very focused on that. Northern Triangle countries Guatemala, Salvador, Honduras,
Speaker 1: as you said, are increasingly the source of forced migration here,
Speaker 1: and what's the answer there. The main answer is really
Speaker 1: trying to deal with some of the so called root causes.
Speaker 1: You know, it's always amazed me. Some people seem to
Speaker 1: think in Washington, for example, that someone gets up in
Speaker 1: the morning and says, Gee, wouldn't this be a great
Speaker 1: day to leave everything I know behind? To leave my language,
Speaker 1: my culture, my friends, my family, my city, put myself
Speaker 1: on the hands of traffickers, you know, take this incredibly
Speaker 1: hazardous journey, and then maybe go someplace where I don't
Speaker 1: know anyone and maybe I'm not so wanted. It takes
Speaker 1: something extraordinary to compel people to feel that that's the
Speaker 1: only choice they have. So if you can help the
Speaker 1: countries in question deal with some of those drivers, deal
Speaker 1: with the corruption, deal with the crime uh and insecurity,
Speaker 1: deal with the lack of opportunity, and give people a
Speaker 1: reason to stay home and help build the future of
Speaker 1: their own country, that ultimately is how you get to
Speaker 1: the bottom this. But it takes time. It takes sustained effort,
Speaker 1: and that's something I know President Biden's committed to doing.
Speaker 1: We'll be right back. Well, I know, um, you're gonna
Speaker 1: have to get onto the important business of state. But
Speaker 1: something that people don't know about you, although it's recently
Speaker 1: broken in the press, is that you have your own
Speaker 1: Spotify channel where you post music you've recorded, So I
Speaker 1: have to ask, are you gonna be able to keep
Speaker 1: this going as Secretary of State and and maybe jam with,
Speaker 1: you know, other foreign ministers around the world, and even
Speaker 1: have a public performance on the eighth floor of the
Speaker 1: State Department, where we do all of the entertaining. And
Speaker 1: it's hard to think of anything that would do more
Speaker 1: damage to our foreign policy or diplomacy than me doing that,
Speaker 1: you know. Uh So I wouldn't inflick that on my
Speaker 1: colleagues here or or or anyone abroad. It's been a
Speaker 1: lifelong passion something I'd taken immense enjoyment out of, you know.
Speaker 1: If I had a chance to actually do that as
Speaker 1: a career, I would have done it. And it turned
Speaker 1: out there was only one missing ingredient, which was talent.
Speaker 1: It turns out also that the only people who seem
Speaker 1: to like or tolerate my music are extremely young children
Speaker 1: who haven't yet to golop critical factory. That's that's that's
Speaker 1: my demographical I'll play for my kids, but maybe not
Speaker 1: for anyone else. Well, keep playing for your kids. I
Speaker 1: used to sing to my daughter when she was a
Speaker 1: baby until she learned to talk, and it was a
Speaker 1: memorable tragic evening when I'm singing away to her, rocking
Speaker 1: her before I put her to bed, and she reaches
Speaker 1: up and puts her little finger on my mouth and says,
Speaker 1: no sing, Mommy, no sing. So keep singing until you're
Speaker 1: told otherwise. And finally, what's the best advice you've gotten
Speaker 1: since you've started this amazing important job? You know, it's
Speaker 1: it's it's funny. I was thinking back, and actually it's
Speaker 1: really advice that I got when I first started working
Speaker 1: for President Clinton and first set foot actually in the
Speaker 1: White House way back in And that's the advice that
Speaker 1: stayed with me, and it still animates what I think
Speaker 1: about this job, which is, make sure you have reverence
Speaker 1: and appreciation or the institution that you're working in and
Speaker 1: helping the lead and that extraordinary responsibility opportunity of doing
Speaker 1: a job with the American flag behind you every day.
Speaker 1: But also never lose your sense of humor and never
Speaker 1: lose your sense of where you actually fit in to
Speaker 1: that larger scheme and larger sleep of history. And as
Speaker 1: long as you keep your eyes focused on both, you'll
Speaker 1: do okay. Well, that really resonates with me because the
Speaker 1: late Great George Schultz, who served in the positions that
Speaker 1: you hold and that I was honored to hold, came
Speaker 1: to see me one day in the Ceremonial office on
Speaker 1: the seventh floor, and he brought with him a teddy bear,
Speaker 1: and he said, you're gonna face a lot of serious issues.
Speaker 1: You're gonna have a lot of problems. It's not always
Speaker 1: going to go our way in the United States, so
Speaker 1: just do the best you can. But then remember, and
Speaker 1: he punched the little paw of the teddy bear, and
Speaker 1: the teddy bear started to sing, don't worry, be happy.
Speaker 1: That is, if I can find another one, Tony, I'll
Speaker 1: send it to you. I will look for I'm looking
Speaker 1: for it right now. And I can't resist because you
Speaker 1: mentioned George Schultz, who I revered also. And uh, you know.
Speaker 1: The other wonderful story about Secretary Schultz was before one
Speaker 1: of our new ambassadors was sent off to post to
Speaker 1: represent the United States, he is Secretary would call them
Speaker 1: into that office, and you may remember he had a
Speaker 1: very large globe and he would ask them to point
Speaker 1: to their country on the globe. And so our new
Speaker 1: ambassador would try to find South Africa or or Poland,
Speaker 1: and he would gently correct them and put their finger
Speaker 1: on the United States. And maybe that's the other most
Speaker 1: important piece of advice that I've gotten, and it's from
Speaker 1: the President of the United States, Joe Biden, which is
Speaker 1: ultimately our job is to be here on behalf of
Speaker 1: the American people and to make sure that everything we're
Speaker 1: doing has them in mind. Anything we're doing around the world,
Speaker 1: is it going in some way, maybe even some small way,
Speaker 1: going to make their life a little bit better, a
Speaker 1: little bit safer, a little bit more prosperous, a little
Speaker 1: bit more hopeful. And if we keep that in mind,
Speaker 1: we'll have a good north star and be pretty grounded
Speaker 1: in what we do. Wow, that's a great way to
Speaker 1: end our conversation. I am so delighted to have this
Speaker 1: chance to talk with you, but I'm even more thrilled
Speaker 1: that you are serving in this capacity, Secretary B. Lincoln,
Speaker 1: and I join every well meaning American and wishing you
Speaker 1: the very best as you tackle these problems on our behalf.
Speaker 1: Thank you so much, Thank you, madam, Secretary. Wonderful to
Speaker 1: be with you. I really hope that people will follow
Speaker 1: what the President, the Vice President and Secretary B. Lincoln
Speaker 1: are doing for our country because we talk about it
Speaker 1: as though it's foreign policy. But I think it's really
Speaker 1: important to stress that a lot of what happens in
Speaker 1: the world, like a pandemic, like climate change, like refugees
Speaker 1: fleeing their own countries, has a direct impact on our
Speaker 1: own country, our prosperity, our security. So I hope listeners
Speaker 1: will not think of foreign policy as being foreign, but
Speaker 1: being part of how we act in the world and
Speaker 1: how we try to make life better for Americans right
Speaker 1: here at home. On a slightly different note, I'm excited
Speaker 1: to share some news about an upcoming project, and it
Speaker 1: has to do with a secretary of state. You know,
Speaker 1: I was a big fan of the mystery writer Louise
Speaker 1: Penny before she and I became good friends, and now
Speaker 1: we are teaming up as co authors to write a
Speaker 1: political thriller about a secretary of state, well a fictional
Speaker 1: secretary of state anyway, but obviously it draws on my
Speaker 1: experiences and the experiences of others to tell a really
Speaker 1: exciting story. The book is called State of Terror, and
Speaker 1: it comes out on October twelfth of this year, and
Speaker 1: you can preorder it now. In the meantime, you can
Speaker 1: listen to my interview with Louise from season one. The
Speaker 1: episode is called Books. Thanks so much for joining us
Speaker 1: this week. We'd love to hear from you with your
Speaker 1: thoughts on season two, your ideas for future episodes, or
Speaker 1: really anything else is on your mind. Just send an
Speaker 1: email to You and Me Both pod at gmail dot com.
Speaker 1: You and Me Both is brought to you by my
Speaker 1: Heart Radio. We're produced by Julie Subran, Kathleen Russo and
Speaker 1: Lauren Peterson, with help from Juma Aberdeen, Nikki e tour,
Speaker 1: Oscar Flores, Lindsay Hoffman, Brianna Johnson, Nick Merrill, Rob Russo,
Speaker 1: and Lona Vel Moro. Our engineer is Zach McNeice and
Speaker 1: the original music is by Forest Gray. If you like
Speaker 1: You and Me Both, please tell someone else about it.
Speaker 1: And if you're not already a subscriber, what are you
Speaker 1: waiting for? You can subscribe to You and Me Both
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Speaker 1: you get your podcasts. See you next week.