Speaker 1: Now here's a highlight from Coast to Coast am on iHeartRadio.
Speaker 2: And we are back with Chris Styles, UFO research heer author.
Speaker 2: You know him for his tremendous work on the Shag
Speaker 2: Harbor UFO incident and co author of two books, Shag
Speaker 2: Harbor Incident or Sorry, two books, Dark Object with Don
Speaker 2: Ledger and Impact to Contact with Graham Simms. The new
Speaker 2: book is Sweep Clear five NATO's UFO encounter seven years
Speaker 2: earlier than Shag Harbor and about thirty miles away in Shellbourne,
Speaker 2: Nova Scotia. We had this incident during a NATO mission.
Speaker 2: Two divers in the water saw two craft at the
Speaker 2: bottom of the bay and to a number of beings
Speaker 2: in the water appeared to be working on the craft.
Speaker 2: So you met with one of the divers in Halifax.
Speaker 2: He wanted he got cold feet at one point wanted
Speaker 2: to cancel the interview, but went ahead. He told you
Speaker 2: what he saw. Was he emotional as he's telling you
Speaker 2: what he saw, I mean, pretty life altering encounter.
Speaker 3: I would say, yeah, yeah, And when you think about that,
Speaker 3: it was such a contrast with anyone I spoke to
Speaker 3: about the sheg Harbor incident. Where things seemed much more
Speaker 3: open and very straightforward. Listen, if there was anything in
Speaker 3: the modern age that would be the equivalent of men
Speaker 3: of iron, long past the day of wooden ships, it
Speaker 3: would be Clarence divers. They do some pretty nasty work.
Speaker 3: You got to be a pretty solid guy to do that.
Speaker 3: They often have to sometimes remove a friend from a
Speaker 3: crashed aircraft. This kind of thing tough work, nasty at times,
Speaker 3: and these guys are up there pretty much. But I
Speaker 3: was struck by these men as they spoke to me
Speaker 3: the first two and eventually others. Was the emotional response,
Speaker 3: because you would when I would push their buttons a
Speaker 3: bit and try to get further hard details, these guys
Speaker 3: would have trouble make an eye contact. They'd look at
Speaker 3: the floor, you know, they would tear up, you know,
Speaker 3: and you had to wonder when you think about some
Speaker 3: of the other stories they told me during the sort
Speaker 3: of warm up phase of the interviews, of striking and
Speaker 3: difficult things in their career. This was significant and it
Speaker 3: just made the hair stand of my neck to see
Speaker 3: these men react like that, you know, and they would
Speaker 3: extend a hand and look at the floor and say
Speaker 3: you have to move on. I can't talk about that part.
Speaker 3: This kind of thing, well, you know, you had to wonder,
Speaker 3: you know, and at some point I was hoping to
Speaker 3: fill in those gaps. Unfortunately, one of the men eventually
Speaker 3: approached Maritime Command in Halifax and asked for permission to
Speaker 3: talk further, and then the boom really came down on it.
Speaker 3: But during those interviews there was a lot of really
Speaker 3: hard detail of things they felt they could talk about,
Speaker 3: and one of the shocking things but they gave me
Speaker 3: the name of the fellow who was underwater with them,
Speaker 3: who actually shot super eight film in a special sealed
Speaker 3: camera of this incident, and of course which led to
Speaker 3: a myriad of questions like well, where's the film now?
Speaker 1: What did you do with it?
Speaker 3: And when you'd ask that you get a very specific
Speaker 3: quick answer they'd say, oh, we gove it to the
Speaker 3: Defense Research building in Grove Street in Darkness, Nova Scotia
Speaker 3: and handed it over to doctor Maurice Coffee. You know,
Speaker 3: he was the unit scientific consultant, And eventually years later
Speaker 3: his name would surface in the Shag Harper incident as
Speaker 3: the fellow named in the April report prepared for the
Speaker 3: late Jim Lorenzen and Coral Lorenzen that here his name
Speaker 3: appears and says if anything of extreme interest is found
Speaker 3: or recovered, it would be turned over to him. So
Speaker 3: you know these things. The credibility kept built is I
Speaker 3: would suggest alternate things like why couldn't this be an
Speaker 3: early Soviet sub And they had a hostile reaction to
Speaker 3: that when I would make those kinds of suggestions, and
Speaker 3: they said, look, we're at anchor, We're in like forty
Speaker 3: feet of water. If this thing is sitting on the bottom,
Speaker 3: we'd have seen the Conning tower. The other thing is
Speaker 3: with you know, eighteen US and Canadian warships there in
Speaker 3: the area. You know, if there's ben a Soviets up
Speaker 3: sitting in Canadian waters in the harb it had a
Speaker 3: very bad day. Yeah, you know, I said, yeah, I'll
Speaker 3: tell you there's another special consideration for that in the
Speaker 3: case too. Because the designer of the mission, the admiral
Speaker 3: that was overseeing this on the Canadian side, and he
Speaker 3: had actually designed this mission working with US forces, was
Speaker 3: Rear Admiral Kenneth Dyer, and he's kind of a famous
Speaker 3: and historic character here in Canada. He was the fella
Speaker 3: in charge of the Atlantic Eat at the time during
Speaker 3: the Cuban missile crisis, and it's very famous in Canada
Speaker 3: because you know, of course overshadowed by events you know,
Speaker 3: involving the US somewhat played over in Cuba. But Kennedy
Speaker 3: actually flew, you know, to Wadawak and asked for his
Speaker 3: assistance because they wanted to free up as many US
Speaker 3: Navy ships as possible the blockade exactly, and what they
Speaker 3: were hoping Canadian forces would do would be guard the
Speaker 3: North Atlantic, you know, track incoming Soviet subsequent might have
Speaker 3: been coming from across the pond, and that well, our
Speaker 3: prime minister at the time, which was John Diefenbaker, refused,
Speaker 3: and just the year before, you know, he had signed
Speaker 3: a special treaty with Eisenhower before Kennedy took favor, saying
Speaker 3: we would eat support the other upon asking in any
Speaker 3: of these incidents. But why the admiral is so fair
Speaker 3: is he he was upset with it. And when he
Speaker 3: got back to Halifax, he contacted Norfolk and asked for
Speaker 3: US orders and took.
Speaker 2: Them and you know, Prime Minister.
Speaker 3: And the Minister of Defense. Yes. And the thing is,
Speaker 3: you know, it's very controversial and probably half the works
Speaker 3: to deal with this in Canadian history, and he is
Speaker 3: a chapter where I described that, and the politics around
Speaker 3: it in the book is that, you know, it was controversial,
Speaker 3: but he saw his duty as a NATO commander as
Speaker 3: being greater just than a Canadian admiral, and he thought
Speaker 3: this was it. It could have been World War three,
Speaker 3: so we had to do it. But the great thing
Speaker 3: about that incident is it tells us his attitude, and
Speaker 3: he was very hawkish, and since he was the fellow
Speaker 3: in command, still help hold in that same position. You know,
Speaker 3: during the Shelbourne incident. He he eventually, by the way,
Speaker 3: when this happens, they fly him out to the ship
Speaker 3: and land him at a helicopter on the deck of
Speaker 3: the whatever, and he has what he calls a hot
Speaker 3: washup meeting with the US forces. Right, And during that
Speaker 3: incident I heard one of the most colorful stories. And
Speaker 3: what it was is that one of the initial divers
Speaker 3: who told me they were down off duty at this point.
Speaker 3: At this point, the mission is declared one of observation
Speaker 3: only they're setting over not to interfere, and the men
Speaker 3: that are off duty are down in the mess on
Speaker 3: the Canadian ship, which of course allows drinking an alcohol.
Speaker 3: One of the US protocol officers wandering around while his
Speaker 3: admirals in the secret meeting, goes down to the mess
Speaker 3: and he hears the divers speaking of what's going on
Speaker 3: on the bottom. He walks over the table. He doesn't
Speaker 3: like it. He leans into them and says, listen, boys,
Speaker 3: you shouldn't be talking shop like this, especially about that
Speaker 3: Russian sub were sitting over. And one of the divers
Speaker 3: just explodes. He jumps to his feet and the table
Speaker 3: goes flying. He grabs the US officer and he says,
Speaker 3: that's the trouble with you Yankee boys. He said, you
Speaker 3: see the red menace anywhere. The only problem is this
Speaker 3: red menace is not from the Black Sea or Moscow.
Speaker 3: Could be marriage, he said, probably a lot farther away,
Speaker 3: he said. And there's nothing we can do about it.
Speaker 3: And you know it, he said, So I hope you
Speaker 3: don't plan and going old John Wayne on it or something.
Speaker 3: And the men are trying to tear them off. The
Speaker 3: US officer, Oh, yes, And interestingly, I had a work
Speaker 3: colleague that had an Air Force career and I didn't
Speaker 3: know it at the time when I first discovered this,
Speaker 3: and he saw the paperwork. He said, how did you
Speaker 3: ever find out this? And I said, you wouldn't believe it.
Speaker 3: He says, oh, I'd believe it. I was there and
Speaker 3: I said, well him, I said, come on, I said
Speaker 3: you were Air Force. He said yeah, and they had
Speaker 3: me out there in case anything was brought up. He
Speaker 3: used to go on these missions because he was an
Speaker 3: identification specialist right for crashes.
Speaker 2: And yeah, sarendig here is dole this throughout this story,
Speaker 2: the serendipity. You know, how you've you've discovered that your
Speaker 2: father was working on the HMSC Cape Scott. Yeah, it
Speaker 2: was kind of like it came to you in a
Speaker 2: dream or something. Can I just back up for a second,
Speaker 2: because I want to get back to what the divers saw.
Speaker 2: What how did they describe the craft and how did
Speaker 2: they describe the beings?
Speaker 3: The craft they described as typical discshape. Your wefo sitting
Speaker 3: on the bottom right now. Visibility wasn't great at the
Speaker 3: time in the water. And of course once they see
Speaker 3: this they're like whoa, you know, when they contact the
Speaker 3: surface and they're very quickly you know, hauled over the
Speaker 3: water to the deck and as they put it again,
Speaker 3: that expression all held breaks. More about that later, But
Speaker 3: the thing is when when this happens, the beans, you know,
Speaker 3: and it was like pulling piece getting these details, because
Speaker 3: when you get to these parts of the you'd see
Speaker 3: them get the jitters and look at the floor and
Speaker 3: say you'll have to move on. But eventually it was
Speaker 3: revealed that what they've seen was typical grades or something
Speaker 3: very similar to that, perhaps a little closer to the
Speaker 3: Betty Hill's description. And this is before Betty Hill's story
Speaker 3: member goes public. If the cow were still president in
Speaker 3: October nineteen sixty, you know that early on. And something
Speaker 3: else i'd remind people about too, that that's different, and
Speaker 3: I often do when I present on a stage, is
Speaker 3: the huge difference between nineteen sixty and nineteen sixty seven.
Speaker 3: It's greater than the difference between sixty seven and now
Speaker 3: in terms of the public's attitude in nineteen sixty and
Speaker 3: try and envision this. People still trusted their.
Speaker 2: Government, right, the Kennedy assassination, that's.
Speaker 3: Right, all those things. It was a very different world, right,
Speaker 3: And it's why I gave the dedication I did to
Speaker 3: the men were there in the front of the book.
Speaker 3: You know, it's easy to criticize and think, oh, how silly,
Speaker 3: you know, in Nicole War and sixty something years ago.
Speaker 3: But these men were expected to confront and deal with
Speaker 3: the unknown, you know, at all costs. And the thing is,
Speaker 3: you know, they weren't even allowed to speak or acknowledge it.
Speaker 3: It was very disturbing to them.
Speaker 2: And did the beings have any kind of underwater breathing
Speaker 2: apparatus or.
Speaker 3: To be honest, when I pushed for those details, that
Speaker 3: men would be like, you just you just got to
Speaker 3: move on. We can't talk about that. We can't talk
Speaker 3: about that, and they would stop one of the other ones.
Speaker 3: In one case, there's more than one man in the
Speaker 3: room together, you know, and let me tell you something
Speaker 3: here to wind it back, it's not like aha, you know,
Speaker 3: the light went on for me when I did those interviews.
Speaker 3: There was another gentleman present he's gone now, that was
Speaker 3: involved in the early reinvestigation of Shagharper, the late Bob McDonald.
Speaker 3: He had a military career. I used to take him
Speaker 3: because often to get these guys to talk, people say, well,
Speaker 3: did you record this? No, you would attempt to, but
Speaker 3: often what happened, I'll tell you what the tape recorder
Speaker 3: often was useful for Richard was as a prop because
Speaker 3: when they wouldn't open up, you take the tape recorder,
Speaker 3: you take the back off, let the bat reswall on
Speaker 3: the floor and say, hey, look we're just talking the story.
Speaker 3: Then I would have to go and find the proof later.
Speaker 3: I didn't think at the time that was going to
Speaker 3: take thirty years, mind you, but it did.
Speaker 2: So they didn't want to go there. In terms of
Speaker 2: the details on the beings and did they say how
Speaker 2: many beings there were.
Speaker 3: No, but the idea was there was more than a couple,
Speaker 3: you know, they were outside. They kept saying, well, there
Speaker 3: was activity, they were working on this craft or something,
Speaker 3: you know, but it was very clear there was a pair.
Speaker 3: It was there a typical classic Sauser type thing sitting
Speaker 3: on the box, you know, and there were live beings
Speaker 3: in the water around. Now. Another thing to consider is
Speaker 3: the location. Okay, Shelburne, Nova Scotia, and what's only about
Speaker 3: two miles away is Canada's most secret base, which is
Speaker 3: actually at the time a US only base with only
Speaker 3: US personnel in Canadian soil. The Canadian was called Canadian
Speaker 3: Forces Station shelburn and that station was the coordination center
Speaker 3: for submarine detection for the entire Atlantic Pacific Ocean. There
Speaker 3: were sixty four SOSIS stations around North America and they
Speaker 3: were all wired in to that central center in Shelburn,
Speaker 3: So it was very sensitive. It was, for example, the
Speaker 3: target and the data that had been compromised during the
Speaker 3: Walker scandal in the US, you know, during the Reagan years.
Speaker 3: It's a very secret base. It operated under a cover story.
Speaker 3: They used to claim that it was at Oceanographic Research station,
Speaker 3: but in fact it was the coordination center for Soviet
Speaker 3: some marine detection. It also played part even but NASA.
Speaker 3: You know, it was a backup system in case radar
Speaker 3: and visuals were lost, you know, for the incoming Mercury
Speaker 3: and Gemini space program. Okay, it had those kind of roles, right,
Speaker 3: So were only two miles from this base, so you
Speaker 3: know they were. They were certainly involved too.
Speaker 2: How many divers in total in the water that saw
Speaker 2: this do? You know?
Speaker 3: Initially just the two but drop cameras were placed after that,
Speaker 3: Like I say, what, once they kind of liaised with
Speaker 3: Halifax and particularly with doctor Maurice Coffey, the decision was
Speaker 3: made that you know, their role would be observation only
Speaker 3: not to interfere. Those ships sat there and did not
Speaker 3: move for days. They dropped anchor. Now, when I made
Speaker 3: my breakthrough in twenty twenty two and got the log
Speaker 3: book from Ottawa, the command ship for October nineteen sixty,
Speaker 3: I didn't expect to see, and you know the term UFO,
Speaker 3: which I did not. Interestingly, most of the Navy documents,
Speaker 3: even and military retallics as it went between the bases
Speaker 3: and the Shag Harbor incidents, openly referred to it as
Speaker 3: the UFO. But that was an unrestricted case and not
Speaker 3: an X file as this was. But when you look
Speaker 3: at this, when you just see what happens, you know,
Speaker 3: when I finally got that and I went through remembering
Speaker 3: the story I said earlier on here Richard that the
Speaker 3: man said, well, we're about an hour into the mission
Speaker 3: when all hell broke loose, right, So when I finally
Speaker 3: got this log and you know, we'll save all the
Speaker 3: drama and back and forth with Ottaw. Well, the first
Speaker 3: half of the book is the struggle to get all
Speaker 3: the things I tried that didn't work. If I get that,
Speaker 3: the first thing I do, of course, is turn to
Speaker 3: that and go ahead find the date. It turns out
Speaker 3: it was October the twelfth, and I see the mission
Speaker 3: set up. It's called Sweet Clear five. You know they're
Speaker 3: getting all the ships lined up. They've swept the channel
Speaker 3: and these ships are about to pass through. I get
Speaker 3: sixty minutes into the mission and nothing. I don't pan
Speaker 3: a hit because remember these men, when they first told
Speaker 3: me the story, it was thirty years ago, but now
Speaker 3: I add another thirty years on.
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