1 00:00:00,880 --> 00:00:04,040 Speaker 1: Hey, folks, Aaron here Before we begin, just a heads 2 00:00:04,080 --> 00:00:07,640 Speaker 1: up that today's episode contains the story of a traumatic birth. 3 00:00:08,039 --> 00:00:19,599 Speaker 1: Listener discretion is advised. Tinkering In his small shop just 4 00:00:19,680 --> 00:00:23,720 Speaker 1: off Broadway, Joseph Trust was busy concocting skin creams and 5 00:00:23,840 --> 00:00:27,360 Speaker 1: making promises. He was going to make women beautiful after all, 6 00:00:27,760 --> 00:00:30,600 Speaker 1: and himself rich in the process, and he would do 7 00:00:30,640 --> 00:00:35,319 Speaker 1: both of those things through manipulation and deceit. Joseph did 8 00:00:35,360 --> 00:00:39,600 Speaker 1: this by transforming himself into an alter ego Felix Gurad, 9 00:00:39,640 --> 00:00:43,479 Speaker 1: a chemist and doctor. But behind this sophisticated facade was 10 00:00:43,520 --> 00:00:47,840 Speaker 1: a difficult snake, oil salesman and general scoundrel about town. 11 00:00:48,240 --> 00:00:51,040 Speaker 1: To those who really knew him, and there weren't many, 12 00:00:51,479 --> 00:00:54,240 Speaker 1: he was less of a superman and Clark Kent and 13 00:00:54,320 --> 00:00:58,040 Speaker 1: more of a jackal and hide. One of his items, though, 14 00:00:58,360 --> 00:01:01,160 Speaker 1: was a canary in the coal mine or the Changing Times. 15 00:01:01,640 --> 00:01:04,960 Speaker 1: On August eighth of eighteen forty, he advertised a woman's 16 00:01:05,000 --> 00:01:07,320 Speaker 1: hair removal powder on the front page of the New 17 00:01:07,400 --> 00:01:10,840 Speaker 1: York Daily Herald. He wrote, we could never think of 18 00:01:10,880 --> 00:01:13,839 Speaker 1: falling in love with a woman whose fuzzy face bears 19 00:01:13,840 --> 00:01:16,319 Speaker 1: a resemblance to the back of a half picked goose 20 00:01:16,680 --> 00:01:20,600 Speaker 1: and wonder how anyone else ever could. But ladies removing 21 00:01:20,640 --> 00:01:23,600 Speaker 1: their body hair wasn't anything new, of course, and can 22 00:01:23,640 --> 00:01:27,199 Speaker 1: be traced back thousands of years to civilizations across the world. 23 00:01:27,600 --> 00:01:31,720 Speaker 1: Egyptian women sometimes removed their head and pubic hair, Elizabethan 24 00:01:31,760 --> 00:01:34,880 Speaker 1: women did away with their eyebrows. Ancient Romans used a 25 00:01:34,920 --> 00:01:37,560 Speaker 1: myriad of pumice stones and tweezers that were at a 26 00:01:37,640 --> 00:01:41,880 Speaker 1: lady's disposal. In America, though, female hair removal had yet 27 00:01:41,920 --> 00:01:46,319 Speaker 1: to be commodified and institutionalized. But then that all started 28 00:01:46,360 --> 00:01:50,600 Speaker 1: to change. In eighteen eighty, the King Camp Gillette Company 29 00:01:50,680 --> 00:01:53,680 Speaker 1: created the first modern razor. It appeared at a time 30 00:01:53,720 --> 00:01:56,600 Speaker 1: when the upper and middle class continued their efforts by 31 00:01:56,640 --> 00:02:00,920 Speaker 1: separating themselves from the working class. Personal hygieing was utilized, 32 00:02:01,280 --> 00:02:05,200 Speaker 1: arguably weaponized at times, to fight against what was considered 33 00:02:05,240 --> 00:02:08,600 Speaker 1: to be improper. By the early nineteen hundreds, to be 34 00:02:08,800 --> 00:02:13,160 Speaker 1: clean shaven was a basic expectation of good breeding, and 35 00:02:13,240 --> 00:02:16,560 Speaker 1: so here Joseph Trust was tapping into a veritable gold 36 00:02:16,639 --> 00:02:20,679 Speaker 1: mine of class anxieties uppercross Victorian Americans. You see, were 37 00:02:20,720 --> 00:02:23,200 Speaker 1: in the habit of clinging to any life raft that 38 00:02:23,200 --> 00:02:27,480 Speaker 1: would keep them floating above the masses. Codd advertising language 39 00:02:27,480 --> 00:02:30,080 Speaker 1: meant that women weren't directly asked to do something as 40 00:02:30,120 --> 00:02:33,519 Speaker 1: masculine as getting rid of their five o'clock shadow. Instead, 41 00:02:33,600 --> 00:02:37,680 Speaker 1: they were just smoothing their surfaces out, dissolving the rough bits, 42 00:02:38,080 --> 00:02:42,560 Speaker 1: and bleaching away their nonconformity. And of course, manufacturers knew 43 00:02:42,600 --> 00:02:45,919 Speaker 1: that many women, an established economic force by this time, 44 00:02:46,160 --> 00:02:50,160 Speaker 1: would be drawn in blade refills. New designs and fancy 45 00:02:50,200 --> 00:02:54,000 Speaker 1: creams kept them coming back for more. Charles Darwin too 46 00:02:54,160 --> 00:02:56,280 Speaker 1: weighed in on the body hair issue with a hot 47 00:02:56,320 --> 00:02:59,320 Speaker 1: take in his book The Descent of Man. He claimed 48 00:02:59,360 --> 00:03:02,519 Speaker 1: that humans have less fur than their ape ancestors because 49 00:03:02,600 --> 00:03:06,480 Speaker 1: less hairy mates are more sexually attractive. We evolve out 50 00:03:06,520 --> 00:03:10,000 Speaker 1: of hair. Following that logic, he believed that excessive hair 51 00:03:10,040 --> 00:03:14,720 Speaker 1: puts a person in closer proximity to a primitive state. Closer, 52 00:03:14,760 --> 00:03:18,760 Speaker 1: to use his words, to the savage, it seems that 53 00:03:18,800 --> 00:03:21,679 Speaker 1: women who wore their hair wild and untamed were being 54 00:03:21,760 --> 00:03:25,760 Speaker 1: boxed out of proper society. But if proper society wasn't 55 00:03:25,800 --> 00:03:28,520 Speaker 1: going to take them, there was another place that would 56 00:03:28,520 --> 00:03:32,200 Speaker 1: welcome them, for better or for worse, with open arms. 57 00:03:33,160 --> 00:03:39,560 Speaker 1: The stage I'm Aaron Manky. Welcome to the Side Show. 58 00:03:50,040 --> 00:03:52,840 Speaker 1: All we know for sure is that Julia Pastrana only 59 00:03:52,840 --> 00:03:55,800 Speaker 1: ever wanted to be loved. It's evident from the few 60 00:03:55,800 --> 00:03:59,240 Speaker 1: words that she left behind. Her complete life story has 61 00:03:59,280 --> 00:04:02,520 Speaker 1: been a treasure hunt for contemporary scholars as they've tried 62 00:04:02,560 --> 00:04:05,920 Speaker 1: to find clues scattered across the pages of history. But 63 00:04:06,000 --> 00:04:10,000 Speaker 1: sometimes the dead have their way of keeping secrets. Our 64 00:04:10,040 --> 00:04:13,640 Speaker 1: story begins on a quiet day in Sinaloa, Mexico. It's 65 00:04:13,680 --> 00:04:16,080 Speaker 1: a state that occupies a narrow stretch of land that 66 00:04:16,120 --> 00:04:19,440 Speaker 1: sits between the Sierra Madre Occidental Mountain range to the 67 00:04:19,440 --> 00:04:22,120 Speaker 1: east and the Sea of Cortez to the west. The 68 00:04:22,240 --> 00:04:25,240 Speaker 1: terrain is carved with peaks and valleys and covered in 69 00:04:25,279 --> 00:04:29,360 Speaker 1: fertile soil. In eighteen thirty four, Sinalo was recently freed 70 00:04:29,400 --> 00:04:32,880 Speaker 1: from Spanish rule, but for the previous three hundred years, 71 00:04:32,920 --> 00:04:37,000 Speaker 1: the indigenous population had been squeezed by colonization and ravaged 72 00:04:37,000 --> 00:04:40,280 Speaker 1: by disease and war. It's here that we meet our 73 00:04:40,360 --> 00:04:44,240 Speaker 1: two hunters, or as some claim, they were herders, walking 74 00:04:44,240 --> 00:04:47,720 Speaker 1: a familiar worn path up a mountain, tracking their game. 75 00:04:48,200 --> 00:04:51,360 Speaker 1: Just up ahead sat a cave. It's rocky Mouth, daring 76 00:04:51,400 --> 00:04:54,440 Speaker 1: them to enter. So they did, and what they found 77 00:04:54,440 --> 00:04:58,440 Speaker 1: there startled them. They found a woman, haggard, half feral, 78 00:04:58,560 --> 00:05:02,200 Speaker 1: and captive. But she wasn't being held by just anyone. No, 79 00:05:02,560 --> 00:05:05,080 Speaker 1: she told them she was being imprisoned by a bear. 80 00:05:05,600 --> 00:05:08,560 Speaker 1: She pleaded for their help, but the hunters were ill prepared, 81 00:05:09,000 --> 00:05:11,560 Speaker 1: so they told her that they would come back with assistance. 82 00:05:12,520 --> 00:05:14,880 Speaker 1: Just as they turned to leave, though they were thwarted, 83 00:05:15,240 --> 00:05:17,840 Speaker 1: the bear had come home. The surprise left them with 84 00:05:17,880 --> 00:05:20,680 Speaker 1: no choice. They had to act fast, but then they 85 00:05:20,720 --> 00:05:24,280 Speaker 1: saw something else. The bear was holding a cub in 86 00:05:24,360 --> 00:05:27,840 Speaker 1: his arms. Legend tells us that the cub was this 87 00:05:27,880 --> 00:05:31,960 Speaker 1: woman's daughter, the product of this inner species hostage situation, 88 00:05:32,440 --> 00:05:34,800 Speaker 1: and the baby was nothing like the hunters had ever 89 00:05:34,839 --> 00:05:38,760 Speaker 1: seen before. Black fur covered her face and body. Although 90 00:05:38,800 --> 00:05:42,000 Speaker 1: she cried and cooed like any other human infant, it 91 00:05:42,040 --> 00:05:46,359 Speaker 1: seemed that she was half person and half beast. The 92 00:05:46,440 --> 00:05:49,359 Speaker 1: infant Julia, was taken from her mother and brought to 93 00:05:49,400 --> 00:05:52,479 Speaker 1: the city, violently altering her life path and the woman 94 00:05:52,600 --> 00:05:55,560 Speaker 1: she would become. You see, women are often treated as 95 00:05:55,560 --> 00:05:58,279 Speaker 1: blank slates for the stories of men, and the tale 96 00:05:58,279 --> 00:06:01,479 Speaker 1: of Julia Pastrana would be no print for her. This 97 00:06:01,560 --> 00:06:04,520 Speaker 1: was just the beginning. What we do know now is 98 00:06:04,560 --> 00:06:09,040 Speaker 1: that she was born with two congenital conditions, hypertrichosis terminalis, 99 00:06:09,120 --> 00:06:11,640 Speaker 1: which caused dark hair to grow all over her body, 100 00:06:12,040 --> 00:06:16,960 Speaker 1: and gingerble hyperplasia, which caused overgrown gums. Some scholars believe 101 00:06:17,040 --> 00:06:18,560 Speaker 1: that she could have been a member of the a 102 00:06:18,640 --> 00:06:22,239 Speaker 1: Coxy people. Promotional materials from later in her life would 103 00:06:22,240 --> 00:06:25,400 Speaker 1: claim that she was a member of a root digger tribe, 104 00:06:25,600 --> 00:06:28,800 Speaker 1: a derogatory term given to a number of culturally separate 105 00:06:28,839 --> 00:06:32,280 Speaker 1: and distinct communities in the region. Julia came to live 106 00:06:32,320 --> 00:06:35,760 Speaker 1: in the home of Pedro Sanchez, one of Sinaloa's governors 107 00:06:35,800 --> 00:06:39,200 Speaker 1: and a man with a penchant for curiosities. There she 108 00:06:39,279 --> 00:06:41,919 Speaker 1: became a servant and also was said to have taken 109 00:06:41,920 --> 00:06:44,960 Speaker 1: on the role of liven entertainer. We know that she 110 00:06:45,080 --> 00:06:47,920 Speaker 1: left his home in eighteen fifty four, although the details 111 00:06:47,960 --> 00:06:50,240 Speaker 1: of that exit are hazy, but it said that she 112 00:06:50,279 --> 00:06:54,440 Speaker 1: eventually came into contact with three men, Miguel Ritez, Francisco 113 00:06:54,600 --> 00:06:59,240 Speaker 1: sepel Veda, and most famous of all, Theodore Lent. We 114 00:06:59,279 --> 00:07:02,000 Speaker 1: don't know the act details of their arrangements or how 115 00:07:02,040 --> 00:07:05,200 Speaker 1: she came under their employ Newspapers tell us that in 116 00:07:05,240 --> 00:07:08,000 Speaker 1: the company of her male comrades, she boarded the S 117 00:07:08,240 --> 00:07:11,280 Speaker 1: s Or Above and left Vera Cruz for New Orleans. 118 00:07:11,560 --> 00:07:15,320 Speaker 1: She arrived in the Ports city on October eighteen fifty four, 119 00:07:15,600 --> 00:07:18,679 Speaker 1: took a steamership up the Mississippi River to St. Louis, 120 00:07:19,000 --> 00:07:21,640 Speaker 1: and then finally went on to New York City. And 121 00:07:21,760 --> 00:07:25,600 Speaker 1: it's here that we meet her again, reincarnated as someone new. 122 00:07:26,120 --> 00:07:30,040 Speaker 1: According to promotional posters, she had become known as the 123 00:07:30,080 --> 00:07:34,600 Speaker 1: Marvel Hybrid and the Bear Woman. She debuted at Gothic 124 00:07:34,640 --> 00:07:37,520 Speaker 1: Hall on Broadway, a tiny form in a red dress, 125 00:07:37,760 --> 00:07:41,800 Speaker 1: dancing to a tinkling piano. According to the New York Tribune, 126 00:07:42,360 --> 00:07:46,800 Speaker 1: the eyes of this Lucius Natura beam with intelligence, while 127 00:07:46,880 --> 00:07:51,920 Speaker 1: its jaws, jagged, fangs, and ears are terrifically hideous. Nearly 128 00:07:51,960 --> 00:07:55,320 Speaker 1: its whole frame is coated in long, glossy hair. Its 129 00:07:55,400 --> 00:07:59,760 Speaker 1: voice is harmonious, for this semi human being is perfectly 130 00:08:00,160 --> 00:08:04,760 Speaker 1: stile and speaks the Spanish language. The papers compared her 131 00:08:04,880 --> 00:08:08,240 Speaker 1: arrival to the spectacle of Joyce Heth and claimed that 132 00:08:08,320 --> 00:08:13,160 Speaker 1: Barnum himself was being well out. Barnumed Theodore, though, decided 133 00:08:13,200 --> 00:08:15,680 Speaker 1: that he would get the upper hand over all of them. 134 00:08:15,720 --> 00:08:19,119 Speaker 1: He would marry Julia in secrets and become her legal 135 00:08:19,160 --> 00:08:23,320 Speaker 1: guardian with all the rights that afforded him and Mary. 136 00:08:23,360 --> 00:08:27,200 Speaker 1: They did on November nine of eighteen fifty. Her other 137 00:08:27,240 --> 00:08:30,200 Speaker 1: managers were furious, but Julia stood by and made it 138 00:08:30,240 --> 00:08:33,000 Speaker 1: clear that it was her choice. She wouldn't give up 139 00:08:33,000 --> 00:08:35,920 Speaker 1: her husband for anyone, she said. But as we know, 140 00:08:36,160 --> 00:08:39,200 Speaker 1: the idea of choice in these situations is often an 141 00:08:39,200 --> 00:08:42,640 Speaker 1: attempt to mitigate harm or side with the lesser of evils. 142 00:08:43,120 --> 00:08:46,400 Speaker 1: It has been reported that Julia truly loved Theodore and 143 00:08:46,480 --> 00:08:48,880 Speaker 1: felt that he saw her for who she truly was, 144 00:08:49,360 --> 00:08:52,360 Speaker 1: but some scholars have speculated that he also saw dollar 145 00:08:52,440 --> 00:08:55,160 Speaker 1: signs when he looked at Julia and only wanted to 146 00:08:55,200 --> 00:08:58,280 Speaker 1: possess her for his own gain. And this is how 147 00:08:58,320 --> 00:09:02,360 Speaker 1: things went. For a good long while. Theodore kept recreating Julia, 148 00:09:02,800 --> 00:09:07,480 Speaker 1: further embellishing her act with songs and dances and costume changes, 149 00:09:07,760 --> 00:09:10,400 Speaker 1: and in all of it, her advertisements teased that she 150 00:09:10,559 --> 00:09:14,959 Speaker 1: was nothing more than a domesticated beast. One man Dr 151 00:09:15,080 --> 00:09:18,959 Speaker 1: Alexander B. Mott wrote a letter of certification for Julia, 152 00:09:19,080 --> 00:09:21,760 Speaker 1: claiming that she was a hybrid of a human and 153 00:09:21,840 --> 00:09:26,200 Speaker 1: an orangutan. He called her a mysterious animal and mused 154 00:09:26,280 --> 00:09:30,559 Speaker 1: over her missing tail. So while her contemporary white bearded 155 00:09:30,640 --> 00:09:35,040 Speaker 1: ladies were marketed as beacons of Victorian propriety beautiful oddities 156 00:09:35,120 --> 00:09:37,960 Speaker 1: if you will, her suit women of color were often 157 00:09:38,040 --> 00:09:41,400 Speaker 1: billed as freaks of nature. Not only was her womanhood 158 00:09:41,400 --> 00:09:44,400 Speaker 1: in question, but her very humanity. And it was upon 159 00:09:44,559 --> 00:09:48,280 Speaker 1: this platform that she toured all over North America, her 160 00:09:48,360 --> 00:09:53,000 Speaker 1: story and body being exploited at every turn. Whereas the 161 00:09:53,000 --> 00:09:57,080 Speaker 1: paper's new Barnum dealt in humbuggery and hoax, they believed 162 00:09:57,080 --> 00:09:59,880 Speaker 1: that Julia was the bona fide real deal. It's a 163 00:10:00,120 --> 00:10:03,200 Speaker 1: that her audiences were largely content with, believing that she 164 00:10:03,320 --> 00:10:06,440 Speaker 1: was something less than human, and as they looked at 165 00:10:06,440 --> 00:10:09,960 Speaker 1: all the cash that flowed in, Theodore couldn't have been 166 00:10:10,040 --> 00:10:22,760 Speaker 1: more pleased. Everyone seemed to have an opinion about Julia's looks, 167 00:10:23,200 --> 00:10:25,880 Speaker 1: so much so that she was shut down for obscenity. 168 00:10:26,320 --> 00:10:29,320 Speaker 1: On November five, eighteen fifty seven, she took the stage 169 00:10:29,320 --> 00:10:32,520 Speaker 1: as the star in a play in Berlin, but unbeknownst 170 00:10:32,520 --> 00:10:35,480 Speaker 1: to her and Theodore Lent, spies from the German police 171 00:10:35,520 --> 00:10:39,160 Speaker 1: were in the audience, and unlike other places Julia had 172 00:10:39,200 --> 00:10:42,600 Speaker 1: traveled to, German authorities were on guard against displays that 173 00:10:42,640 --> 00:10:46,840 Speaker 1: they considered to be tasteless, degrading monster shows. The police 174 00:10:46,880 --> 00:10:51,319 Speaker 1: called her appearance immoral and quite literally feared for their children. 175 00:10:52,200 --> 00:10:56,000 Speaker 1: Obstetricians in Germany weighed in, worried that pregnant women would 176 00:10:56,040 --> 00:10:59,000 Speaker 1: miscarry at the sight of her. They also tossed around 177 00:10:59,040 --> 00:11:02,240 Speaker 1: threats of maternal impression, the idea that those in the 178 00:11:02,320 --> 00:11:06,120 Speaker 1: family way were infinitely susceptible to any kind of upset, 179 00:11:06,320 --> 00:11:09,120 Speaker 1: and that those anxieties would manifest in the body of 180 00:11:09,160 --> 00:11:12,200 Speaker 1: the child. The authorities were afraid that more babies would 181 00:11:12,200 --> 00:11:16,240 Speaker 1: be born looking like Julia. This, of course, caused her 182 00:11:16,400 --> 00:11:18,880 Speaker 1: great pain. It was when people saw her as a 183 00:11:18,880 --> 00:11:23,400 Speaker 1: full person that she felt truly animated, truly alive and actualized, 184 00:11:23,800 --> 00:11:26,640 Speaker 1: But so often this wasn't the case. A friend once 185 00:11:26,720 --> 00:11:29,320 Speaker 1: noted that there was always a light fog of sadness 186 00:11:29,400 --> 00:11:32,319 Speaker 1: that hung over her, resigned to a life and narrative 187 00:11:32,360 --> 00:11:36,160 Speaker 1: that kept her humanity locked away in the shadows. After 188 00:11:36,200 --> 00:11:39,640 Speaker 1: the backlash in the press, Theodore reimagined the performance as 189 00:11:39,720 --> 00:11:42,880 Speaker 1: a set of short song and dance numbers, A burlesque 190 00:11:42,920 --> 00:11:46,360 Speaker 1: act and private meetings, all for a fee. Of course, 191 00:11:47,440 --> 00:11:50,880 Speaker 1: Julia attracted the attention of hermann Otto, a sympathetic German 192 00:11:50,920 --> 00:11:54,079 Speaker 1: circus showman. He wrote that for those who knew her, 193 00:11:54,240 --> 00:11:57,680 Speaker 1: she was warm, thoughtful, and spiritually gifted, with a sensitive 194 00:11:57,720 --> 00:12:00,880 Speaker 1: heart and mind. It affected her very deeply in her heart, 195 00:12:01,240 --> 00:12:04,160 Speaker 1: having to stand beside people instead of with them, and 196 00:12:04,200 --> 00:12:07,000 Speaker 1: to be shown as a freak for money, not sharing 197 00:12:07,080 --> 00:12:10,000 Speaker 1: any of the everyday joys in a home filled with love. 198 00:12:11,040 --> 00:12:13,640 Speaker 1: But then something happened that held the potential to change 199 00:12:13,679 --> 00:12:17,000 Speaker 1: all of that. In eighteen fifty nine, she and Theodore 200 00:12:17,080 --> 00:12:20,440 Speaker 1: were in Moscow. Their tour was keeping them busy in afloat, 201 00:12:20,800 --> 00:12:23,760 Speaker 1: but she was starting to feel strangely different. It wouldn't 202 00:12:23,760 --> 00:12:28,160 Speaker 1: be long before she realized why she was pregnant. Now, 203 00:12:28,200 --> 00:12:30,400 Speaker 1: instead of Julia being told that she was a risk 204 00:12:30,520 --> 00:12:34,600 Speaker 1: to expect it mother's, she was becoming one. Obstetricians grew 205 00:12:34,640 --> 00:12:38,120 Speaker 1: concerned with this news. They feared that her particularly narrow 206 00:12:38,160 --> 00:12:41,440 Speaker 1: pelvis would prove to be dangerous. At best, birth is 207 00:12:41,480 --> 00:12:45,600 Speaker 1: a physically traumatic experience. At its worst, it can be deadly. 208 00:12:46,760 --> 00:12:50,040 Speaker 1: Her labor began on March eighteen sixty and she was 209 00:12:50,080 --> 00:12:53,160 Speaker 1: attended to buy a handful of doctors. What we do 210 00:12:53,240 --> 00:12:55,680 Speaker 1: know is that the doctors use forceps to help the 211 00:12:55,679 --> 00:12:58,280 Speaker 1: baby out. We can imagine that they were clamped to 212 00:12:58,360 --> 00:13:01,880 Speaker 1: his skull or to his shoulders, crushing him, and around 213 00:13:01,920 --> 00:13:04,840 Speaker 1: four in the afternoon he was born, and as the 214 00:13:04,920 --> 00:13:07,880 Speaker 1: doctors held him for the first time, they were horrified. 215 00:13:08,320 --> 00:13:11,720 Speaker 1: The baby's body was covered in thick black hair, just 216 00:13:11,880 --> 00:13:16,520 Speaker 1: like his mother. Tragically, the baby, unnamed in the history books, 217 00:13:16,920 --> 00:13:20,559 Speaker 1: died thirty five hours later, and Julia would fare no better. 218 00:13:21,360 --> 00:13:24,520 Speaker 1: First came the chills, and then the shaking. An intense 219 00:13:24,600 --> 00:13:27,960 Speaker 1: pain in her abdomen was followed by unbearable swelling and 220 00:13:28,040 --> 00:13:31,200 Speaker 1: finally a fever. It said that a crowd of spectators 221 00:13:31,200 --> 00:13:35,320 Speaker 1: gathered around Julia's deathbed. If Theodore sold tickets, we don't know, 222 00:13:35,400 --> 00:13:37,600 Speaker 1: but could we put it past him. It said that 223 00:13:37,640 --> 00:13:40,720 Speaker 1: her last words were, I die happy. I know I 224 00:13:40,760 --> 00:13:45,200 Speaker 1: have been loved for myself. Julia followed her baby into 225 00:13:45,240 --> 00:13:49,800 Speaker 1: death on March eighteen sixty. According to the Romantics, she 226 00:13:49,880 --> 00:13:53,160 Speaker 1: died of a broken heart. This, of course, is nonsense. 227 00:13:53,520 --> 00:13:56,440 Speaker 1: A broken heart theory was just yet another story about 228 00:13:56,480 --> 00:13:59,840 Speaker 1: her that became repeated just another tale that was tacked 229 00:13:59,840 --> 00:14:03,840 Speaker 1: on to her body's canvas. In the end, doctors listed 230 00:14:03,880 --> 00:14:06,920 Speaker 1: her official cause of death as inflammation of the uterine 231 00:14:06,960 --> 00:14:10,559 Speaker 1: membrane and the lining of the abdominal cavity. It wasn't 232 00:14:10,559 --> 00:14:14,120 Speaker 1: a beautiful death in which Julia slipped away gracefully. It 233 00:14:14,240 --> 00:14:19,200 Speaker 1: was brutal. Theodore, however, was not one to mourn. Instead, 234 00:14:20,080 --> 00:14:27,120 Speaker 1: he had an idea. Death is usually the end for 235 00:14:27,200 --> 00:14:30,240 Speaker 1: most of us, but the longest stretch of Julia's career 236 00:14:30,720 --> 00:14:35,400 Speaker 1: was just beginning. The unscrupulous Theodore Lentz, committed to never 237 00:14:35,480 --> 00:14:38,200 Speaker 1: losing a dime, sold the bodies of his wife and 238 00:14:38,280 --> 00:14:42,120 Speaker 1: child to a professor at Moscow University. Whether they commanded 239 00:14:42,160 --> 00:14:44,280 Speaker 1: a high price or not depends on how you determine 240 00:14:44,320 --> 00:14:47,400 Speaker 1: their value, but they lined his wallet with the equivalent 241 00:14:47,440 --> 00:14:51,320 Speaker 1: of about eighty four thousand dollars in today's currency. In 242 00:14:51,360 --> 00:14:54,400 Speaker 1: the lab, Julia and her son's body were subjected to 243 00:14:54,520 --> 00:14:58,320 Speaker 1: a top secret cocktail of embalming liquids. It was reported 244 00:14:58,360 --> 00:15:01,000 Speaker 1: that since the child's body was quite fresh, it was 245 00:15:01,440 --> 00:15:04,880 Speaker 1: easy to mummify. Julia, on the other hand, proved to 246 00:15:04,880 --> 00:15:07,640 Speaker 1: be more difficult. She had to be injected several times 247 00:15:07,720 --> 00:15:10,240 Speaker 1: over a long period in order to mask the smell 248 00:15:10,280 --> 00:15:14,040 Speaker 1: of decay. All the while, the professor took photographs and notes, 249 00:15:14,280 --> 00:15:17,840 Speaker 1: recording diligently as the human husks on his table changed 250 00:15:17,880 --> 00:15:21,600 Speaker 1: color and shape. After six months of work, it was 251 00:15:21,640 --> 00:15:24,880 Speaker 1: time for the postmortem debut at the University of Moscow's 252 00:15:24,880 --> 00:15:30,000 Speaker 1: Anatomy Museum. In life, just as in death, Julia Pastrana 253 00:15:30,080 --> 00:15:34,440 Speaker 1: became a sensation. The embalming process also had a curious 254 00:15:34,440 --> 00:15:37,840 Speaker 1: side effect. It seemed that her dissection had finally proven 255 00:15:37,920 --> 00:15:41,640 Speaker 1: her humanity. The papers were surprised to report that, after 256 00:15:41,720 --> 00:15:46,240 Speaker 1: a grueling internal examination, her body was indeed human. She 257 00:15:46,320 --> 00:15:50,160 Speaker 1: wasn't an ape after all. The widower, Theodore length, though, 258 00:15:50,360 --> 00:15:53,000 Speaker 1: stuck around it, said that he liked the mummies so 259 00:15:53,080 --> 00:15:56,840 Speaker 1: much and was so impressed by that Moscow University professor's 260 00:15:56,880 --> 00:15:59,360 Speaker 1: work that he bought back the bodies of his wife 261 00:15:59,400 --> 00:16:02,440 Speaker 1: and son for nearly twice what he'd sold them. And 262 00:16:02,520 --> 00:16:05,680 Speaker 1: like most showmen of that age, Theodore already had his 263 00:16:05,800 --> 00:16:09,920 Speaker 1: next destination in mind, Piccadilly Circus in London, home to 264 00:16:10,040 --> 00:16:14,120 Speaker 1: curious wonders from all over the world. In the early 265 00:16:14,160 --> 00:16:17,000 Speaker 1: months of eighteen sixty two, he set up shop, he 266 00:16:17,120 --> 00:16:20,200 Speaker 1: dressed his dead bride in a Russian dancing dress she 267 00:16:20,240 --> 00:16:23,280 Speaker 1: had made herself, and his son in a sailor suit. 268 00:16:23,720 --> 00:16:26,240 Speaker 1: Two years later, in eighteen sixty four, the bodies of 269 00:16:26,360 --> 00:16:29,920 Speaker 1: Julia and her baby were toured through Sweden. Meanwhile, Theodore 270 00:16:30,040 --> 00:16:33,160 Speaker 1: was off searching for another break, and in Bohemia he 271 00:16:33,240 --> 00:16:37,800 Speaker 1: found it well her He had learned about Marie Bartel, 272 00:16:38,000 --> 00:16:41,080 Speaker 1: another bearded woman. It has said that her family kept 273 00:16:41,160 --> 00:16:44,840 Speaker 1: her locked away, but somehow Theodore managed to ingratiate himself 274 00:16:44,880 --> 00:16:47,720 Speaker 1: with her family enough to seek her hand in marriage. 275 00:16:48,000 --> 00:16:51,400 Speaker 1: Her father obliged, but made Theodore promise that he wouldn't 276 00:16:51,400 --> 00:16:55,200 Speaker 1: show her for money, but unfortunately this was before Google 277 00:16:55,280 --> 00:16:59,080 Speaker 1: and background checks. Just a few days in Theodore stole 278 00:16:59,120 --> 00:17:02,040 Speaker 1: her shaving kits. He made grand plans to take her 279 00:17:02,080 --> 00:17:05,120 Speaker 1: through Europe and gave her a new name to match them, 280 00:17:05,400 --> 00:17:09,840 Speaker 1: Zenora Pastrana. Yes, Theodore had decided to style her as 281 00:17:09,960 --> 00:17:13,560 Speaker 1: Julia's long lost sister, and for a decade they toured 282 00:17:13,600 --> 00:17:17,920 Speaker 1: with Europe's best circuses and entertained royals. By the eighteen eighties, 283 00:17:18,000 --> 00:17:20,800 Speaker 1: interest in their act began to wane, so they decided 284 00:17:20,840 --> 00:17:23,360 Speaker 1: to put some roots down and open a wax museum 285 00:17:23,400 --> 00:17:27,560 Speaker 1: in St. Petersburg, Russia. Julia and her baby, though, had 286 00:17:27,560 --> 00:17:30,840 Speaker 1: been left behind on loan to a Viennese museum, with 287 00:17:30,920 --> 00:17:34,560 Speaker 1: Theodore being paid for the privilege. But the quiet, settled 288 00:17:34,600 --> 00:17:37,760 Speaker 1: life wouldn't last long for Theodore and his second wife. 289 00:17:38,080 --> 00:17:40,439 Speaker 1: It said that he began to lose his marbles and 290 00:17:40,520 --> 00:17:43,600 Speaker 1: was eventually installed in a Russian insane asylum, where he 291 00:17:43,640 --> 00:17:46,679 Speaker 1: would never be heard from again. It might sound like 292 00:17:46,720 --> 00:17:50,600 Speaker 1: a satisfying ending, but our story doesn't stop there. Free 293 00:17:50,640 --> 00:17:54,280 Speaker 1: from his gravitational pull, Marie now struck out on her own, 294 00:17:54,640 --> 00:17:57,080 Speaker 1: with the bodies of Julia and her baby in tow, 295 00:17:57,760 --> 00:18:00,920 Speaker 1: but the threesome would never be a permanent sideshow fixture. 296 00:18:01,320 --> 00:18:04,600 Speaker 1: The following year, Marie married a much younger man and 297 00:18:04,880 --> 00:18:07,920 Speaker 1: left show business, and when she did, she passed her 298 00:18:08,160 --> 00:18:13,040 Speaker 1: mummified partners onto a German showman. By the late eighteen nineties, 299 00:18:13,119 --> 00:18:15,480 Speaker 1: the pair was not longer of much interest to the 300 00:18:15,520 --> 00:18:18,960 Speaker 1: medical or scientific communities. We lose track of the two 301 00:18:19,000 --> 00:18:21,680 Speaker 1: for a while until they surface at an amusement park 302 00:18:21,720 --> 00:18:25,280 Speaker 1: in Oslo. Their home. There wasn't an anatomy museum, but 303 00:18:25,359 --> 00:18:29,719 Speaker 1: a chamber of horrors displayed alongside various body parts and 304 00:18:29,880 --> 00:18:34,760 Speaker 1: bottled sea monsters. Horrific I know, and this would be 305 00:18:34,880 --> 00:18:38,960 Speaker 1: Julia and Baby's story. For the intervening decades. They rotated 306 00:18:39,040 --> 00:18:42,840 Speaker 1: in and out of storage units, appearing at various installations 307 00:18:42,880 --> 00:18:46,600 Speaker 1: before being sent off to warehouses. Collectors came knocking over 308 00:18:46,640 --> 00:18:51,080 Speaker 1: the years, offering top dollar for the remains. Julia went 309 00:18:51,160 --> 00:18:54,280 Speaker 1: on one final tour, but it wouldn't last long. While 310 00:18:54,359 --> 00:18:57,400 Speaker 1: visiting a town in Sweden, local authorities used a law 311 00:18:57,480 --> 00:19:00,440 Speaker 1: from eighteen seventy five to threaten confess ation of the 312 00:19:00,520 --> 00:19:04,040 Speaker 1: mummies if they were put on display. After that, she 313 00:19:04,240 --> 00:19:06,520 Speaker 1: was sent to the winter headquarters of a fair ground 314 00:19:06,560 --> 00:19:09,600 Speaker 1: in Oslo, and it's there that she fell to pieces. 315 00:19:10,119 --> 00:19:13,600 Speaker 1: Vandals tore her dress, ripped her child's arm off, and 316 00:19:13,640 --> 00:19:17,240 Speaker 1: broke her jaw. It seems that Julia and her child 317 00:19:17,320 --> 00:19:20,440 Speaker 1: were treated in death exactly as she had been in life, 318 00:19:20,800 --> 00:19:24,760 Speaker 1: Displayed for entertainment, handled like a possession, and decorated with 319 00:19:24,800 --> 00:19:27,919 Speaker 1: whatever narrative sold the most tickets, And when they no 320 00:19:27,960 --> 00:19:31,440 Speaker 1: longer serve their purpose, they were locked away and left 321 00:19:31,440 --> 00:19:36,919 Speaker 1: a rot. Human beings seen as nothing more and sideshow prompts. 322 00:19:45,040 --> 00:19:47,439 Speaker 1: It's always alarming when you find body parts at the 323 00:19:47,480 --> 00:19:51,960 Speaker 1: town dump. It was nine in the suburbs of Oslo, Norway, 324 00:19:52,200 --> 00:19:54,560 Speaker 1: and some children who were playing in a garbage heap 325 00:19:54,600 --> 00:19:58,600 Speaker 1: found a severed, mummified arm. The owner wasn't immediately clear, 326 00:19:58,800 --> 00:20:02,240 Speaker 1: but she was soon found. Julia Pastrana stood quietly in 327 00:20:02,280 --> 00:20:07,280 Speaker 1: an abandoned caravan nearby, missing life and limb. Time hadn't 328 00:20:07,280 --> 00:20:10,000 Speaker 1: been kind to her, but neither had the world. She 329 00:20:10,119 --> 00:20:14,280 Speaker 1: was quite literally torn apart, stuffing exposed, and suittures popped. 330 00:20:14,640 --> 00:20:17,320 Speaker 1: Some of her skin and clothing were missing, and to 331 00:20:17,400 --> 00:20:21,960 Speaker 1: further compound the cruelty, so was her baby. She would 332 00:20:22,000 --> 00:20:24,919 Speaker 1: resurface ten years later in a janitor's closet in the 333 00:20:24,920 --> 00:20:28,719 Speaker 1: basement of the Forensic Institute of Oslo. It's clear that 334 00:20:28,760 --> 00:20:30,880 Speaker 1: no one still quite knew what to do with her, 335 00:20:31,280 --> 00:20:34,080 Speaker 1: and today we have to wonder what took so long 336 00:20:34,160 --> 00:20:37,560 Speaker 1: to figure it out. But by the ninety nineties, rumbles 337 00:20:37,560 --> 00:20:42,120 Speaker 1: could be heard through the hallowed academic halls of Oslo. Scholars, historians, 338 00:20:42,160 --> 00:20:46,040 Speaker 1: and activists began questioning the university's decision to keep her body, 339 00:20:46,480 --> 00:20:48,879 Speaker 1: and across the Pond in New York, a play was 340 00:20:48,920 --> 00:20:52,880 Speaker 1: being produced about her life. Its story shocked audiences rather 341 00:20:52,960 --> 00:20:55,639 Speaker 1: than entertained them, and it drummed up interest in a 342 00:20:55,680 --> 00:20:59,560 Speaker 1: petition to the Mexican embassy in Oslo to send Julia home. 343 00:21:00,680 --> 00:21:04,199 Speaker 1: But as was the case with Sarki Bartman's repatriation, Julia 344 00:21:04,320 --> 00:21:07,640 Speaker 1: and her supporters faced a long difficult battle with high 345 00:21:07,720 --> 00:21:11,199 Speaker 1: minded institutes that deemed themselves worthy to hold her captive 346 00:21:11,240 --> 00:21:14,760 Speaker 1: in the name of science. This claim was dubious at best, 347 00:21:15,160 --> 00:21:19,879 Speaker 1: and finally the institution relented in February of two thousand thirteen. 348 00:21:19,920 --> 00:21:22,920 Speaker 1: She was dressed in a traditional hupil garment and laid 349 00:21:22,960 --> 00:21:25,520 Speaker 1: in a coffin. The rods and bolts that were used 350 00:21:25,560 --> 00:21:28,919 Speaker 1: for exhibiting her body and death were removed and placed 351 00:21:28,960 --> 00:21:31,480 Speaker 1: at her feet, and with that she was flown home 352 00:21:31,520 --> 00:21:34,760 Speaker 1: to Sinaloa and greeted with the welcome fit for royalty. 353 00:21:35,320 --> 00:21:38,199 Speaker 1: There she would finally rest in a tomb, dressed in 354 00:21:38,200 --> 00:21:41,640 Speaker 1: a riot of flowers from well wishers from across the globe. 355 00:21:42,480 --> 00:21:45,119 Speaker 1: It had taken a century and a half, but the 356 00:21:45,160 --> 00:21:49,160 Speaker 1: world had finally seen her and loved her or who 357 00:21:49,240 --> 00:22:00,959 Speaker 1: she truly was. Everyone wants to be loved, but for 358 00:22:01,040 --> 00:22:03,960 Speaker 1: the right reasons, of course, So if there's someone out 359 00:22:04,000 --> 00:22:06,920 Speaker 1: there who you truly appreciate, if they bring a brightness 360 00:22:06,960 --> 00:22:09,600 Speaker 1: to your life, maybe some joy, or they just make 361 00:22:09,680 --> 00:22:12,800 Speaker 1: being here a little easier. Maybe now is a good 362 00:22:12,800 --> 00:22:15,680 Speaker 1: time to let them know. But we're not quite done 363 00:22:15,720 --> 00:22:18,080 Speaker 1: here just yet. And if you stick around through this 364 00:22:18,160 --> 00:22:21,399 Speaker 1: brief sponsor break, Robin will tell us one more tale 365 00:22:21,480 --> 00:22:23,840 Speaker 1: from the side show and help us see what happens 366 00:22:23,840 --> 00:22:40,360 Speaker 1: when the drama leaves the stage and heads to the courtroom. 367 00:22:40,400 --> 00:22:44,119 Speaker 1: On July two, eighty three, a crowd appeared at the 368 00:22:44,160 --> 00:22:47,560 Speaker 1: Halls of Justice in Manhattan, a formidable complex that housed 369 00:22:47,600 --> 00:22:50,200 Speaker 1: both the court and a detention center for New York City. 370 00:22:51,119 --> 00:22:53,840 Speaker 1: Curious onlookers had heard about one of the cases on 371 00:22:53,880 --> 00:22:56,399 Speaker 1: the docket that day, and they were looking for a 372 00:22:56,440 --> 00:23:00,679 Speaker 1: free show. William Char, you see, had a bone to 373 00:23:00,720 --> 00:23:04,800 Speaker 1: pick with P. T. Barnum. He had visited Barnum's American 374 00:23:04,920 --> 00:23:08,680 Speaker 1: Museum and was angry about it. Standing before the Justice, 375 00:23:09,040 --> 00:23:13,240 Speaker 1: Char recounted his experience from the previous day. After paying 376 00:23:13,280 --> 00:23:16,760 Speaker 1: his quarter for admission, he entered the museum of the 377 00:23:16,880 --> 00:23:20,960 Speaker 1: thousands of curiosities on display awaiting visitors. Char was there 378 00:23:21,000 --> 00:23:25,280 Speaker 1: to see a brand new feature, Madame Josephine Clofolia build 379 00:23:25,440 --> 00:23:29,359 Speaker 1: as the bearded Lady. Madame Clofolio was a hit in 380 00:23:29,440 --> 00:23:32,639 Speaker 1: part due to who she was behind the beard. She 381 00:23:32,760 --> 00:23:35,480 Speaker 1: was a fair skinned woman of Swiss descent, born to 382 00:23:35,560 --> 00:23:39,119 Speaker 1: a class, which gave her access to many refined social circles. 383 00:23:40,880 --> 00:23:44,520 Speaker 1: Mid nineteenth century America was a time of high gender anxiety. 384 00:23:45,160 --> 00:23:48,040 Speaker 1: Gender was conceived as a strict binary You were either 385 00:23:48,119 --> 00:23:51,399 Speaker 1: male or female. You performed one or the other, but 386 00:23:51,560 --> 00:23:56,000 Speaker 1: never neither, and certainly not both. But here she was 387 00:23:56,200 --> 00:24:00,879 Speaker 1: a strikingly beautiful woman, just you know, with a beard. 388 00:24:01,680 --> 00:24:05,200 Speaker 1: When Char was faced with this performance, he was incredulous. 389 00:24:05,760 --> 00:24:09,320 Speaker 1: He quickly deemed Madam Clofolia to be an impostor. She 390 00:24:09,560 --> 00:24:13,320 Speaker 1: had to be a man in disguise. Char, standing amongst 391 00:24:13,400 --> 00:24:17,960 Speaker 1: innumerable humbugs, decided that this gaff had gone too far. 392 00:24:18,800 --> 00:24:22,400 Speaker 1: He believed he had been cheated, so he took Barnum 393 00:24:22,440 --> 00:24:27,000 Speaker 1: and Clofulia to court, and there, at the place where 394 00:24:27,000 --> 00:24:31,159 Speaker 1: criminals and corruption rubbed elbows, Josephine Clofolia and her lovely 395 00:24:31,240 --> 00:24:37,600 Speaker 1: Victorian gown stood listening to a stranger challenging her womanhood character. 396 00:24:37,640 --> 00:24:42,840 Speaker 1: Witnesses were called upon to certified Josephine's legitimacy fortune Clofolia, 397 00:24:43,040 --> 00:24:45,960 Speaker 1: her husband of three years, brought up the two children 398 00:24:46,040 --> 00:24:49,240 Speaker 1: she had birthed, one of whom was still alive. Her 399 00:24:49,280 --> 00:24:54,840 Speaker 1: own father backed him up. Barnum spoke his piece too. 400 00:24:55,520 --> 00:24:57,840 Speaker 1: He claimed that he had paid her a large sum 401 00:24:57,920 --> 00:25:01,080 Speaker 1: for her exhibiting work, and for the best of his knowledge, 402 00:25:01,440 --> 00:25:04,920 Speaker 1: she was a woman. In fact, he said, he had 403 00:25:04,920 --> 00:25:08,600 Speaker 1: her examined by a few physicians, including one Dr Mott, 404 00:25:09,000 --> 00:25:12,480 Speaker 1: the same man who had called Julia Pastrana's basic humanity 405 00:25:12,600 --> 00:25:16,320 Speaker 1: into question. Even Dr Covill of New York City's Prison 406 00:25:16,400 --> 00:25:20,000 Speaker 1: chimed in. He had interviewed her, he reported, and was 407 00:25:20,119 --> 00:25:23,480 Speaker 1: perfectly convinced that, in spite of her beard, she was 408 00:25:23,520 --> 00:25:27,560 Speaker 1: indeed a lady. The magistrate was convinced, and the suit 409 00:25:27,760 --> 00:25:32,280 Speaker 1: was dismissed. Horace Greeley's New York Tribune reported the whole 410 00:25:32,320 --> 00:25:36,439 Speaker 1: story in great detail the very next day. His paper 411 00:25:36,520 --> 00:25:39,280 Speaker 1: had a circulation of about two hundred thousand throughout the 412 00:25:39,320 --> 00:25:42,480 Speaker 1: eighteen fifties, which made it one of the largest daily 413 00:25:42,520 --> 00:25:48,360 Speaker 1: papers in the United States. And imagine this. Horace Greeley 414 00:25:48,600 --> 00:25:54,280 Speaker 1: was also a good friend of P. T. Barnum. Almost immediately, 415 00:25:54,520 --> 00:25:57,960 Speaker 1: Barnum was suspected of arranging the whole ordeal with char 416 00:25:59,040 --> 00:26:03,919 Speaker 1: why Well, either because interest in Madame Cloudfulio wasn't as 417 00:26:04,040 --> 00:26:07,760 Speaker 1: enthusiastic as a showman had hoped, or to make sure 418 00:26:07,800 --> 00:26:11,320 Speaker 1: He's museum with a bona fide. Bearded Lady became a 419 00:26:11,359 --> 00:26:15,399 Speaker 1: top destination for visitors on the fourth of July, and 420 00:26:15,520 --> 00:26:19,719 Speaker 1: it worked for better for worse. The article that spread 421 00:26:19,760 --> 00:26:24,119 Speaker 1: throughout the nation's papers made the title Bearded Lady synonymous 422 00:26:24,119 --> 00:26:28,280 Speaker 1: with the name Madame Cloudfulia, at least for some time 423 00:26:29,440 --> 00:26:32,880 Speaker 1: in America. She continued to travel as a professional, covering 424 00:26:32,880 --> 00:26:35,360 Speaker 1: her beard so that passers by wouldn't get a free 425 00:26:35,400 --> 00:26:39,000 Speaker 1: show she was given. With Julia and so many other 426 00:26:39,080 --> 00:26:44,560 Speaker 1: hairsuit women of color were never afforded the label of respectability. 427 00:26:45,160 --> 00:26:48,920 Speaker 1: The papers sung her praises, championing her beauty and writing 428 00:26:48,960 --> 00:26:52,720 Speaker 1: that she had the finest set of whiskers that anyone 429 00:26:53,160 --> 00:26:57,480 Speaker 1: had ever seen. Side show was written by Robin Miniature, 430 00:26:57,680 --> 00:27:01,200 Speaker 1: with narration by me Aaron Mankey research for the series 431 00:27:01,280 --> 00:27:04,919 Speaker 1: was by Robin Minna, Taylor Haggerdorn, and Sam Alberty, with 432 00:27:05,000 --> 00:27:09,239 Speaker 1: production assistants from Josh Than Jesse funk Alex Williams and 433 00:27:09,280 --> 00:27:12,800 Speaker 1: Matt Frederick. Grim and Mile Presents was created in partnership 434 00:27:12,840 --> 00:27:15,199 Speaker 1: with I Heart Radio. You can learn more about this 435 00:27:15,240 --> 00:27:17,959 Speaker 1: show and everything else from Grim and mild Over at 436 00:27:18,000 --> 00:27:22,440 Speaker 1: grimm and mild dot com, and, as always, thanks for listening.