1 00:00:12,920 --> 00:00:15,920 Speaker 1: Welcome back to Killer Thriller DOCU edition. I'm your host, 2 00:00:16,040 --> 00:00:19,360 Speaker 1: Jennifer Fessler. So today we're diving into one of the 3 00:00:19,400 --> 00:00:23,160 Speaker 1: most shocking and I must I feel like you guys, 4 00:00:23,160 --> 00:00:25,480 Speaker 1: I say this a lot, but seriously, one of the 5 00:00:25,520 --> 00:00:30,800 Speaker 1: most disturbing true crime cases in recent memory. I mean 6 00:00:30,840 --> 00:00:34,159 Speaker 1: this one is whoa The story at the center of 7 00:00:34,200 --> 00:00:37,680 Speaker 1: Netflix's new documentary, Maternal Instinct is the name of it, 8 00:00:37,720 --> 00:00:42,360 Speaker 1: you guys. And this doc follows the story of Taylor Parker, 9 00:00:42,440 --> 00:00:45,519 Speaker 1: who is a young woman claiming to come from a 10 00:00:45,560 --> 00:00:49,520 Speaker 1: wealthy family, claiming to who fell for a man named 11 00:00:49,560 --> 00:00:53,000 Speaker 1: Wade Griffin who was a local hog trapper in a 12 00:00:53,040 --> 00:00:58,480 Speaker 1: small East Texas town. And they meet and their relationship 13 00:00:59,080 --> 00:01:04,320 Speaker 1: seems great, and within months she announces that she's pregnant. 14 00:01:04,680 --> 00:01:09,400 Speaker 1: And then as this pregnancy mounts, her family and her 15 00:01:09,440 --> 00:01:11,760 Speaker 1: partner and the wider community, they all begin to sort 16 00:01:11,760 --> 00:01:16,800 Speaker 1: of voice their doubts and then this shocking truth surfaces 17 00:01:16,840 --> 00:01:23,959 Speaker 1: and there are the most horrible, unspeakable consequences. It's just 18 00:01:24,160 --> 00:01:30,160 Speaker 1: the story is horrific, but it is beautifully told by 19 00:01:30,319 --> 00:01:32,960 Speaker 1: the director who is joining us today, Jessica Dimmick, who 20 00:01:33,040 --> 00:01:36,040 Speaker 1: is an award winning filmmaker known for her deeply human 21 00:01:36,080 --> 00:01:40,040 Speaker 1: approach to storytelling. Jessica takes viewers beyond the headlines to 22 00:01:40,160 --> 00:01:42,440 Speaker 1: explore the people at the heart of this tragic case 23 00:01:42,520 --> 00:01:45,080 Speaker 1: and the lasting impact of a crime that shocked the nation. 24 00:01:45,640 --> 00:01:48,240 Speaker 1: We'll talk about the challenges of telling such a sensitive story, 25 00:01:48,280 --> 00:01:50,760 Speaker 1: the process of bringing the documentary to life, and the 26 00:01:50,800 --> 00:01:54,880 Speaker 1: deeper themes that emerged along the way. Jessica, thank you 27 00:01:55,000 --> 00:01:57,160 Speaker 1: so much for joining us. I'll be honest with you, 28 00:01:58,200 --> 00:02:02,440 Speaker 1: I don't remember this story in the news. I'm from Texas, 29 00:02:02,440 --> 00:02:07,080 Speaker 1: originally southwest Houston. Yeah, and this wasn't that long ago, right, 30 00:02:07,240 --> 00:02:07,840 Speaker 1: this happened. 31 00:02:08,480 --> 00:02:12,040 Speaker 2: This is a twenty twenty case, which maybe is part 32 00:02:12,200 --> 00:02:16,240 Speaker 2: of it. But I also hadn't heard of this until 33 00:02:16,240 --> 00:02:21,919 Speaker 2: I was brought the story, you know, in to consider 34 00:02:22,280 --> 00:02:24,519 Speaker 2: directing this, and I was surprised by that. 35 00:02:24,520 --> 00:02:27,240 Speaker 1: That was sort of my first thought when I, you know, 36 00:02:27,520 --> 00:02:29,040 Speaker 1: sort of wrapped my head around what had happened. 37 00:02:29,080 --> 00:02:30,360 Speaker 3: I was like, how is it? This is? 38 00:02:30,760 --> 00:02:33,200 Speaker 1: How is this story escaped me? I mean, I've been 39 00:02:33,240 --> 00:02:36,040 Speaker 1: living in New Jersey, you know, when this happened, But still, 40 00:02:37,000 --> 00:02:39,680 Speaker 1: what was it? So I'm sure you are introduced to 41 00:02:39,760 --> 00:02:43,440 Speaker 1: a lot of potential documentaries that people that want you 42 00:02:43,440 --> 00:02:45,560 Speaker 1: to direct them. What was it about this story that 43 00:02:45,639 --> 00:02:46,120 Speaker 1: drew you in? 44 00:02:46,840 --> 00:02:53,480 Speaker 2: I mean, there is there's a brutality and a senselessness 45 00:02:53,600 --> 00:02:58,360 Speaker 2: to the crime that happens to Reagan. There's also just 46 00:02:58,480 --> 00:03:04,320 Speaker 2: like a kind of had scratching element for how Taylor Parker, 47 00:03:05,080 --> 00:03:09,960 Speaker 2: the types of manipulations that she was, you know, involved 48 00:03:09,960 --> 00:03:13,120 Speaker 2: in the idea that she thought something like this could work. 49 00:03:13,360 --> 00:03:16,280 Speaker 2: It was also this like, you know, theme of motherhood 50 00:03:16,280 --> 00:03:19,160 Speaker 2: that I thought was really interesting, you know, which we 51 00:03:19,200 --> 00:03:21,240 Speaker 2: can talk about. But you know, I just thought that 52 00:03:21,280 --> 00:03:23,440 Speaker 2: I had a lot of a lot of layers. 53 00:03:23,919 --> 00:03:26,680 Speaker 1: Yeah, it was very and again I do a lot 54 00:03:26,720 --> 00:03:29,880 Speaker 1: of these. I watched a lot of true crime. This one, 55 00:03:29,919 --> 00:03:33,920 Speaker 1: for whatever reason, this really freaked me out. And I 56 00:03:33,960 --> 00:03:36,600 Speaker 1: think that there were there were a lot of reasons 57 00:03:36,640 --> 00:03:39,920 Speaker 1: for that, but one of which was that I didn't understand. 58 00:03:39,920 --> 00:03:42,480 Speaker 1: And I'm assuming that you asked Taylor's family if they 59 00:03:42,560 --> 00:03:45,720 Speaker 1: wanted to be part of the documentary. I'm just guessing 60 00:03:45,720 --> 00:03:47,920 Speaker 1: that they probably didn't correct Taylor. 61 00:03:48,040 --> 00:03:52,520 Speaker 2: Yeah, Taylor's Taylor. You know. We Yeah, that we didn't 62 00:03:52,560 --> 00:03:53,560 Speaker 2: hear from members, and. 63 00:03:53,480 --> 00:03:57,480 Speaker 1: I would Yeah, I figured that, but so hard to 64 00:03:57,480 --> 00:04:00,760 Speaker 1: sort of figure out where this all came from, right, 65 00:04:00,880 --> 00:04:06,680 Speaker 1: Like it was, every single bit of this documentary was fascinating, scary, fascinating, thrilling, 66 00:04:07,200 --> 00:04:11,600 Speaker 1: And but I felt like, there's no way, it's hard 67 00:04:11,640 --> 00:04:14,840 Speaker 1: to tell how she got. Please forgive me. I I 68 00:04:14,880 --> 00:04:16,640 Speaker 1: don't want to be you know, I want to try 69 00:04:16,680 --> 00:04:19,960 Speaker 1: to give everyone grace. But how she got so fucking crazy? 70 00:04:20,240 --> 00:04:21,240 Speaker 1: Like what happened? 71 00:04:21,279 --> 00:04:23,840 Speaker 3: Because again, I mean we had we. 72 00:04:23,760 --> 00:04:26,240 Speaker 1: Heard snippets of her mom and what you know she 73 00:04:26,400 --> 00:04:29,240 Speaker 1: was saying, and that she had relationship with the granddaughter. 74 00:04:29,279 --> 00:04:34,000 Speaker 1: But what was Taylor's past like that she turned so pathological? 75 00:04:34,560 --> 00:04:37,280 Speaker 2: Yeah, well, I mean from all accounts, it seems like 76 00:04:37,440 --> 00:04:42,039 Speaker 2: this was a very long pattern in terms of lying. 77 00:04:42,200 --> 00:04:45,080 Speaker 2: Lying was like, you know, something well established in her 78 00:04:45,960 --> 00:04:49,719 Speaker 2: in the accounts from her past. No violent history. I mean, 79 00:04:51,200 --> 00:04:54,240 Speaker 2: there was a there was a an ex boyfriend you know, 80 00:04:54,279 --> 00:04:57,559 Speaker 2: who talks about like her maybe like running around after 81 00:04:57,640 --> 00:04:59,200 Speaker 2: him in the kitchen with a knife or something. I 82 00:04:59,240 --> 00:05:02,680 Speaker 2: thought it like by all accounts, had never been had 83 00:05:02,720 --> 00:05:05,600 Speaker 2: never gone to jail, had never been arrested, but had 84 00:05:05,640 --> 00:05:08,920 Speaker 2: always lied. And you know, in talking to this, in 85 00:05:09,000 --> 00:05:13,080 Speaker 2: talking about this story, me and my team sometimes when 86 00:05:13,080 --> 00:05:14,760 Speaker 2: we were describing it, we'd be like, you know, we 87 00:05:14,800 --> 00:05:18,760 Speaker 2: all knew someone like Taylor at some point in our lives. Yes, yeah, 88 00:05:18,760 --> 00:05:21,480 Speaker 2: in terms of like the person that's at school and 89 00:05:21,520 --> 00:05:27,479 Speaker 2: always has embrace or crutches or is always you know, 90 00:05:27,560 --> 00:05:30,760 Speaker 2: coming back from vacation and telling these wild stories about 91 00:05:31,080 --> 00:05:33,600 Speaker 2: you know, a boyfriend and you just know that it's 92 00:05:33,640 --> 00:05:36,200 Speaker 2: not real, fantastical things about her family, Like, we have 93 00:05:36,240 --> 00:05:39,480 Speaker 2: all known someone like this up until a certain point, 94 00:05:39,560 --> 00:05:43,840 Speaker 2: and so there's certainly a pathological liar aspect to her 95 00:05:43,839 --> 00:05:47,359 Speaker 2: personality for sure, But then her ability to kind of 96 00:05:47,400 --> 00:05:50,120 Speaker 2: take it to the extremes and also to this violent 97 00:05:50,200 --> 00:05:51,039 Speaker 2: level is crazy. 98 00:05:51,480 --> 00:05:54,000 Speaker 1: I'm thinking that I've no idea what her IQ is, 99 00:05:54,040 --> 00:05:57,360 Speaker 1: but she has to be very bright, very right. I mean, 100 00:05:57,360 --> 00:06:01,000 Speaker 1: this is not the stuff that she concocted. Even understand 101 00:06:01,040 --> 00:06:04,080 Speaker 1: how that would have been possible for I don't know, 102 00:06:04,160 --> 00:06:05,920 Speaker 1: And it sounds like she didn't come from means. It's 103 00:06:05,960 --> 00:06:07,280 Speaker 1: not like she had a lot of money to buy 104 00:06:07,560 --> 00:06:11,200 Speaker 1: twenty different cell phones and voice changers, and I don't 105 00:06:11,200 --> 00:06:14,120 Speaker 1: know how you know she had the wherewithal to come 106 00:06:14,200 --> 00:06:17,680 Speaker 1: up with these plots and these schemes and then execute them. 107 00:06:18,000 --> 00:06:22,080 Speaker 2: She's clearly she's got to be. It's the something I 108 00:06:22,080 --> 00:06:24,640 Speaker 2: always say about Taylor is like she's always one step 109 00:06:24,680 --> 00:06:27,320 Speaker 2: ahead of people, but she's never two steps ahead of people. 110 00:06:27,560 --> 00:06:28,080 Speaker 2: I like that. 111 00:06:28,200 --> 00:06:29,520 Speaker 3: I feel like say, I'd just say it with that 112 00:06:29,560 --> 00:06:30,360 Speaker 3: for a second. 113 00:06:30,160 --> 00:06:31,920 Speaker 2: You know, when you think about what she actually does, 114 00:06:32,000 --> 00:06:35,160 Speaker 2: like what, how would she ever have gotten away with this? 115 00:06:35,520 --> 00:06:37,960 Speaker 2: How would she ever have gotten even like through the 116 00:06:38,080 --> 00:06:40,240 Speaker 2: night with the crime. I mean, there was no way 117 00:06:40,240 --> 00:06:43,720 Speaker 2: that this was gonna work. It's a tiny community. Everyone 118 00:06:43,760 --> 00:06:46,479 Speaker 2: had been questioning whether or not she's pregnant. There's a 119 00:06:46,560 --> 00:06:51,440 Speaker 2: dead woman that she's connected to, you know, miles away. 120 00:06:51,440 --> 00:06:55,120 Speaker 2: It's like, but her ability to kind of manipulate and 121 00:06:55,240 --> 00:06:58,960 Speaker 2: throw people off her trail is very strong. But then 122 00:06:59,120 --> 00:07:01,760 Speaker 2: her ability to think think two steps ahead, three steps ahead, 123 00:07:01,760 --> 00:07:04,159 Speaker 2: four steps ahead, like really think like a chess player 124 00:07:04,640 --> 00:07:08,440 Speaker 2: is quite weak. She's always just scrambling to like get 125 00:07:08,520 --> 00:07:11,880 Speaker 2: through and avoid being held accountable in the moment, and 126 00:07:11,920 --> 00:07:14,520 Speaker 2: she will do whatever it takes to not be held 127 00:07:14,560 --> 00:07:15,640 Speaker 2: accountable in the moment. 128 00:07:16,000 --> 00:07:17,680 Speaker 3: There are so many examples of that. 129 00:07:18,040 --> 00:07:21,240 Speaker 1: I was looking throughout it for like a psychotic break 130 00:07:21,280 --> 00:07:25,960 Speaker 1: almost because at the beginning of the film it felt like, yes, 131 00:07:26,000 --> 00:07:29,000 Speaker 1: she was definitely definitely whacky, and you heard her friends, 132 00:07:29,000 --> 00:07:31,080 Speaker 1: but she had friends, and you heard them describe her as, 133 00:07:31,760 --> 00:07:34,760 Speaker 1: you know, a great friend. She was always desperate for attention. 134 00:07:35,200 --> 00:07:38,840 Speaker 1: They were very aware of that, but as somebody that 135 00:07:39,280 --> 00:07:42,400 Speaker 1: they could kind of count on. And certainly these women 136 00:07:42,640 --> 00:07:46,480 Speaker 1: that these young women that you interviewed, there's nothing there 137 00:07:46,520 --> 00:07:48,720 Speaker 1: was nothing that seemed out. 138 00:07:48,560 --> 00:07:50,920 Speaker 3: Of the ordinary about them. They seemed like they are 139 00:07:51,280 --> 00:07:53,200 Speaker 3: right and they are lovely young women. 140 00:07:53,360 --> 00:07:58,160 Speaker 1: So what happened, Like, where was where's the disconnect? Because 141 00:07:58,200 --> 00:08:00,679 Speaker 1: also at the beginning of it, just the story again, 142 00:08:00,760 --> 00:08:03,680 Speaker 1: I mean, this is I didn't know what exactly how 143 00:08:03,720 --> 00:08:06,760 Speaker 1: this was going to play out, but it all seemed 144 00:08:07,040 --> 00:08:10,360 Speaker 1: sort of almost I could consume it. 145 00:08:10,360 --> 00:08:12,600 Speaker 3: I could kind of understand it. Okay, here's what's happening. 146 00:08:12,640 --> 00:08:15,680 Speaker 1: This girl is she falls in love and they said 147 00:08:15,680 --> 00:08:17,560 Speaker 1: all she ever wanted to do was be the pretty 148 00:08:17,560 --> 00:08:22,160 Speaker 1: girl that got the guy. She finds her cowboy, and 149 00:08:22,200 --> 00:08:25,520 Speaker 1: she starts lying about her wealth and her background and 150 00:08:25,560 --> 00:08:29,520 Speaker 1: all of them. Okay, okay, but there's a huge leap 151 00:08:29,640 --> 00:08:32,200 Speaker 1: right from that to stabbing a woman to death and 152 00:08:32,240 --> 00:08:35,240 Speaker 1: taking the baby, right, and like, where do you feel 153 00:08:35,280 --> 00:08:37,440 Speaker 1: like there was in your following the story, you could 154 00:08:37,480 --> 00:08:40,080 Speaker 1: you could ever see that break like what happened? 155 00:08:40,480 --> 00:08:42,720 Speaker 2: It's a really good question. The way I think about 156 00:08:42,720 --> 00:08:48,439 Speaker 2: it more is that the break happens long before the 157 00:08:48,480 --> 00:08:52,440 Speaker 2: trajectory of the story. It's just that the behaviors that 158 00:08:52,480 --> 00:08:55,840 Speaker 2: she's manifesting, we assume are going to stay within the 159 00:08:55,880 --> 00:08:59,199 Speaker 2: realm of normal. Right, So, Like, you know, faking a 160 00:08:59,280 --> 00:09:02,760 Speaker 2: pregnancy is not the most uncommon thing in the world. 161 00:09:02,840 --> 00:09:05,520 Speaker 2: People have faked pregnancies. It's not a very kind thing 162 00:09:05,559 --> 00:09:07,760 Speaker 2: to do. It's not a particularly moral thing to do. 163 00:09:08,000 --> 00:09:10,120 Speaker 2: But faking a pregnancy to keep a man is a 164 00:09:10,160 --> 00:09:14,600 Speaker 2: thing that a woman has done before. But they have 165 00:09:14,679 --> 00:09:18,440 Speaker 2: a fake miscarriage, they eventually fess up that, you know. 166 00:09:18,600 --> 00:09:21,720 Speaker 2: Like it's so it's like, you know, she's using these 167 00:09:21,760 --> 00:09:24,680 Speaker 2: tactics that are within this realm of normal. But I 168 00:09:24,720 --> 00:09:27,640 Speaker 2: think something is broken in her a long time ago. 169 00:09:28,280 --> 00:09:34,120 Speaker 2: And I you know, I certainly cannot suggest or pretend 170 00:09:34,160 --> 00:09:38,080 Speaker 2: to know like how to pathologize her, But you know, 171 00:09:38,120 --> 00:09:40,000 Speaker 2: I was so struck by the idea that she would 172 00:09:40,040 --> 00:09:42,120 Speaker 2: go to the hospital. You know, her friends Mackenzie and 173 00:09:42,120 --> 00:09:44,640 Speaker 2: Abbey are talking about she'd go to the hospital. She 174 00:09:44,679 --> 00:09:49,400 Speaker 2: had MS. She had you know, cancer, she had seizure, 175 00:09:49,520 --> 00:09:51,560 Speaker 2: she had had a stroke, like and she would go 176 00:09:51,600 --> 00:09:55,040 Speaker 2: to the hospital for these conditions, and she was sent 177 00:09:55,120 --> 00:09:58,840 Speaker 2: home all the time without a diagnosis, you know, or 178 00:09:58,880 --> 00:10:01,800 Speaker 2: with like looking at her blood work and saying, you know, 179 00:10:02,000 --> 00:10:04,400 Speaker 2: you don't have the diagnosis of this thing you're claiming 180 00:10:04,440 --> 00:10:08,440 Speaker 2: to have. I always think about, like, there was quite 181 00:10:08,520 --> 00:10:11,120 Speaker 2: possibly a diagnosis she could have been sent home with. 182 00:10:11,440 --> 00:10:13,000 Speaker 2: You know, it wasn't the thing she was in the 183 00:10:13,000 --> 00:10:18,280 Speaker 2: hospital for. But someone along the way maybe could have 184 00:10:18,440 --> 00:10:23,760 Speaker 2: or should have realized that this woman was very unwell. 185 00:10:23,520 --> 00:10:23,800 Speaker 3: Not right. 186 00:10:24,240 --> 00:10:28,120 Speaker 1: Yeah, do you think I mean, I remember that she 187 00:10:28,160 --> 00:10:30,320 Speaker 1: would go to different doctors. I mean, I'm sure she 188 00:10:30,440 --> 00:10:33,520 Speaker 1: was so good at sort of like sure moving around 189 00:10:33,840 --> 00:10:36,760 Speaker 1: that I'm sure she didn't see the same doctor for 190 00:10:36,800 --> 00:10:41,040 Speaker 1: the same stuff. But yeah, I would have thought that 191 00:10:41,120 --> 00:10:43,640 Speaker 1: in her how many how old was she Jessica. 192 00:10:43,520 --> 00:10:47,080 Speaker 2: She was twenty six when this when she meets Wade, 193 00:10:47,720 --> 00:10:52,680 Speaker 2: She's twenty six, twice divorced with two kids, so she 194 00:10:52,920 --> 00:10:54,240 Speaker 2: lived a lot at twenty six. 195 00:10:54,400 --> 00:10:56,640 Speaker 1: You would have thought that there would have, I don't know, 196 00:10:56,840 --> 00:11:00,840 Speaker 1: been some indicator. And then there's a you only had 197 00:11:00,880 --> 00:11:02,520 Speaker 1: so long to tell the story but the fact that 198 00:11:02,559 --> 00:11:04,880 Speaker 1: she wasn't completely clear to me. 199 00:11:04,920 --> 00:11:05,600 Speaker 3: I know, she didn't have. 200 00:11:05,559 --> 00:11:08,920 Speaker 1: Custody of her other son and daughter, but they were 201 00:11:08,960 --> 00:11:11,960 Speaker 1: still she could still see them, correct, like they were 202 00:11:12,120 --> 00:11:14,040 Speaker 1: living with the mother maybe. 203 00:11:13,880 --> 00:11:16,960 Speaker 2: Yeah, from what I understand she was, it was like 204 00:11:17,000 --> 00:11:22,480 Speaker 2: a joint custody with her son, who she you know, 205 00:11:22,600 --> 00:11:26,120 Speaker 2: by all accounts from just in terms of like me 206 00:11:26,200 --> 00:11:32,040 Speaker 2: reading court, you know that the husband and his biological 207 00:11:32,080 --> 00:11:36,200 Speaker 2: father had no issue with the son seeing his mother Taylor, 208 00:11:36,440 --> 00:11:38,719 Speaker 2: but that she wouldn't show up. She would say, oh, 209 00:11:38,720 --> 00:11:41,199 Speaker 2: I'm coming. You know, it's his birthday. She wouldn't show up. 210 00:11:41,280 --> 00:11:44,640 Speaker 2: It's his graduation from kindergarten, she wouldn't be there. It's 211 00:11:45,760 --> 00:11:49,120 Speaker 2: truly heartbreaking. So she had a son that she could 212 00:11:49,120 --> 00:11:52,200 Speaker 2: see but she just didn't see. And she had a 213 00:11:52,360 --> 00:11:55,880 Speaker 2: daughter that a lot of times was staying with her 214 00:11:55,920 --> 00:11:58,560 Speaker 2: mother and sometimes was staying with her brother as well. 215 00:11:59,240 --> 00:12:02,920 Speaker 2: So you know, technically there wasn't like any kind of 216 00:12:04,120 --> 00:12:08,320 Speaker 2: court mandated removal of her children. 217 00:12:23,440 --> 00:12:24,880 Speaker 1: You would know this better than I do, right, you 218 00:12:25,000 --> 00:12:27,960 Speaker 1: do this professionally, but like you can't for me, I 219 00:12:28,000 --> 00:12:30,000 Speaker 1: watch these, I can't make sense out of them. There's 220 00:12:30,000 --> 00:12:32,280 Speaker 1: never any like one more. I'm like, okay, that makes sense. 221 00:12:32,280 --> 00:12:35,079 Speaker 1: But I am always searching, you know, like, how did 222 00:12:35,120 --> 00:12:37,920 Speaker 1: she get here? I mean, so she had two children. 223 00:12:38,600 --> 00:12:41,200 Speaker 1: Was it she was simply that she wanted to hang 224 00:12:41,240 --> 00:12:42,640 Speaker 1: on to wait or do you think that she it 225 00:12:42,720 --> 00:12:45,480 Speaker 1: wasn't the idea of having another child. Who knows, but 226 00:12:46,000 --> 00:12:49,000 Speaker 1: she had these two children already, So it was like, 227 00:12:49,280 --> 00:12:51,240 Speaker 1: was it that she so desperately wanted another one? 228 00:12:51,520 --> 00:12:54,960 Speaker 2: I don't think so. I mean, listen, I am not 229 00:12:55,040 --> 00:12:57,200 Speaker 2: in her head. I you know, this is just my 230 00:12:57,320 --> 00:13:01,080 Speaker 2: personal opinion from the way that thing's un I think 231 00:13:01,600 --> 00:13:04,959 Speaker 2: what she wanted desperately was to keep wide. I didn't 232 00:13:05,280 --> 00:13:07,840 Speaker 2: get the sense that what she desperately wanted was to 233 00:13:07,840 --> 00:13:11,160 Speaker 2: be able to mother again. I don't really when it 234 00:13:11,160 --> 00:13:13,480 Speaker 2: comes to I think she wanted to be able to 235 00:13:13,559 --> 00:13:16,040 Speaker 2: tell him that she could mother again. I think she 236 00:13:16,120 --> 00:13:19,320 Speaker 2: was in a part of the country with you know, 237 00:13:19,440 --> 00:13:22,360 Speaker 2: very specific gender roles. She's a young woman, she's already 238 00:13:22,360 --> 00:13:25,240 Speaker 2: had a hysterectomy. I wonder if you know, and a 239 00:13:25,240 --> 00:13:28,160 Speaker 2: lot of value is placed on women and their ability 240 00:13:28,200 --> 00:13:33,679 Speaker 2: to reproduce, you know, and so I wonder if she 241 00:13:34,120 --> 00:13:37,280 Speaker 2: was frightened that without being a mother, she couldn't keep 242 00:13:37,320 --> 00:13:39,160 Speaker 2: this man. I don't know if she ever asked him. 243 00:13:39,280 --> 00:13:41,439 Speaker 2: I don't know if she ever broached that conversation with him. 244 00:13:41,800 --> 00:13:45,600 Speaker 2: It's a big assumption, but I don't in my heart 245 00:13:45,600 --> 00:13:49,320 Speaker 2: of hearts, my personal opinion, I don't actually think. And 246 00:13:49,360 --> 00:13:53,000 Speaker 2: this is the like this is also tragic, but this 247 00:13:53,080 --> 00:13:56,120 Speaker 2: is like the extra tragic part. I don't really think 248 00:13:56,440 --> 00:13:59,920 Speaker 2: it was about having a baby that she abducted, because 249 00:14:01,640 --> 00:14:04,840 Speaker 2: if she cared that much, I think, you know, the 250 00:14:04,840 --> 00:14:06,400 Speaker 2: baby did not survive. 251 00:14:06,440 --> 00:14:09,280 Speaker 3: Right, I found no in watching it. I that's I 252 00:14:09,360 --> 00:14:10,679 Speaker 3: completely agree with that. 253 00:14:10,679 --> 00:14:12,280 Speaker 2: I don't. To me, I don't. 254 00:14:12,320 --> 00:14:13,920 Speaker 1: I still I don't even know what it was about. 255 00:14:14,000 --> 00:14:17,959 Speaker 1: I think she was a really unwell woman because did 256 00:14:18,000 --> 00:14:22,400 Speaker 1: she have that was she so obsessively in love with Wade? 257 00:14:22,680 --> 00:14:23,120 Speaker 2: Maybe? 258 00:14:23,200 --> 00:14:26,240 Speaker 3: I don't know. I guess I just couldn't. I couldn't 259 00:14:26,240 --> 00:14:30,320 Speaker 3: figure out what was driving her, and that was so weird. 260 00:14:30,880 --> 00:14:31,080 Speaker 2: You know. 261 00:14:31,520 --> 00:14:33,280 Speaker 1: I have these questions that just occurred to me that 262 00:14:33,320 --> 00:14:35,680 Speaker 1: I want to just throw in a little off topic, 263 00:14:35,760 --> 00:14:36,280 Speaker 1: So forgive me. 264 00:14:36,320 --> 00:14:38,440 Speaker 3: But like, it was great the way you did show 265 00:14:39,240 --> 00:14:39,920 Speaker 3: pieces of. 266 00:14:39,880 --> 00:14:43,120 Speaker 1: Her history, for instance, that she had a gastric sleeve, 267 00:14:43,160 --> 00:14:46,360 Speaker 1: so she was very overweight. Yes, and you didn't see 268 00:14:46,400 --> 00:14:49,280 Speaker 1: that until you actually flashed back to that time in 269 00:14:49,320 --> 00:14:52,440 Speaker 1: her life, right, So she had. 270 00:14:52,320 --> 00:14:53,440 Speaker 3: This gastric sleep. 271 00:14:53,480 --> 00:14:57,360 Speaker 1: That was after she had had the babies, the other 272 00:14:57,400 --> 00:14:58,240 Speaker 1: two babies, do we know? 273 00:14:58,400 --> 00:15:01,640 Speaker 2: You know, I that is a you know, in terms 274 00:15:01,640 --> 00:15:04,880 Speaker 2: of the timeline, it's all pretty close it actually, I 275 00:15:04,880 --> 00:15:07,240 Speaker 2: think might have been before she had her babies. I 276 00:15:07,280 --> 00:15:11,280 Speaker 2: think it was like post you know, like very early 277 00:15:11,960 --> 00:15:16,200 Speaker 2: early twenties. You know, it's in the same A lot happens, 278 00:15:16,640 --> 00:15:19,320 Speaker 2: you know, from the time she like graduates call high 279 00:15:19,360 --> 00:15:23,560 Speaker 2: school to you know, her mid twenties. Yeah, but she 280 00:15:23,640 --> 00:15:27,800 Speaker 2: had been quite overweight, definitely all through high school and childhood. 281 00:15:28,240 --> 00:15:31,800 Speaker 1: Because I didn't see until you showed us that, I don't, 282 00:15:31,880 --> 00:15:33,840 Speaker 1: you know, realize it. What about that did you think 283 00:15:33,920 --> 00:15:35,520 Speaker 1: was important to show? 284 00:15:35,760 --> 00:15:39,360 Speaker 2: You know? I think it speaks to a couple of things. 285 00:15:39,400 --> 00:15:42,400 Speaker 2: One is that there is a kind of all prove 286 00:15:42,440 --> 00:15:46,720 Speaker 2: it to everyone that I think Taylor is spending some 287 00:15:46,760 --> 00:15:49,840 Speaker 2: of her like early adult years playing catch up. Like 288 00:15:50,080 --> 00:15:52,160 Speaker 2: I was never the pretty girl in high school. I 289 00:15:52,160 --> 00:15:54,760 Speaker 2: could never get the guys. I had to catfish them, 290 00:15:54,960 --> 00:15:56,880 Speaker 2: I had to pretend to be someone else. And now 291 00:15:56,880 --> 00:15:58,960 Speaker 2: I've lost this way and look, and I'm going to 292 00:15:59,080 --> 00:16:02,640 Speaker 2: prove to everyone that this is a skill and a 293 00:16:02,760 --> 00:16:07,560 Speaker 2: power that I have. And so I think it's about that. 294 00:16:08,880 --> 00:16:15,440 Speaker 2: It's a deep insecurity, it's yeah, And it's also like 295 00:16:15,520 --> 00:16:19,000 Speaker 2: a desire for people to see the outside and not 296 00:16:19,120 --> 00:16:21,920 Speaker 2: the inside with her. Yeah. Yeah, I think a lot 297 00:16:21,920 --> 00:16:24,920 Speaker 2: of people that were really close to her at times 298 00:16:24,920 --> 00:16:28,640 Speaker 2: in their life don't actually know who this person is. 299 00:16:28,840 --> 00:16:31,680 Speaker 2: And that is not their fault. That's very much her fault. 300 00:16:31,720 --> 00:16:35,080 Speaker 2: Like I just there's a kind of inability to truly 301 00:16:35,200 --> 00:16:39,400 Speaker 2: let people in, in part because what's inside is pretty dark. 302 00:16:39,840 --> 00:16:40,320 Speaker 3: Yeah. 303 00:16:40,400 --> 00:16:43,000 Speaker 1: I found it that interesting because I think she was 304 00:16:43,040 --> 00:16:45,800 Speaker 1: almost like morbidly obese, at least that's what it seemed 305 00:16:45,800 --> 00:16:47,800 Speaker 1: to me in a way. So you cut off and 306 00:16:47,840 --> 00:16:49,120 Speaker 1: I don't know where she got the money to get 307 00:16:49,160 --> 00:16:51,960 Speaker 1: a gastric sleeve. Who knows, maybe insurance, whatever. 308 00:16:52,200 --> 00:16:54,720 Speaker 2: I'm pretty sure she went to I'm pretty sure she 309 00:16:54,760 --> 00:16:56,600 Speaker 2: went Overseas to do it. I think she went to 310 00:16:56,680 --> 00:16:57,520 Speaker 2: Mexico for it. 311 00:16:57,600 --> 00:16:59,840 Speaker 1: So think about the wherewithal you have to have at 312 00:16:59,800 --> 00:17:02,400 Speaker 1: this point, you're you're she doesn't. I mean the mother 313 00:17:02,440 --> 00:17:04,520 Speaker 1: said she had, they had no money. It's not all 314 00:17:04,560 --> 00:17:07,439 Speaker 1: this that she made up was all bullshit, right, So, 315 00:17:07,600 --> 00:17:11,399 Speaker 1: but as a young woman to have it together to 316 00:17:12,400 --> 00:17:17,520 Speaker 1: get yourself overseas and the drive or the maybe she's 317 00:17:17,560 --> 00:17:19,960 Speaker 1: driven by her misery and her insecurity. I don't know, 318 00:17:20,280 --> 00:17:23,760 Speaker 1: but I don't know why. Just thought that aspect was 319 00:17:23,760 --> 00:17:28,879 Speaker 1: was interesting and how you know she transformed, Yeah, you 320 00:17:28,920 --> 00:17:31,760 Speaker 1: know afterwards, and you know, there was a lot of 321 00:17:31,800 --> 00:17:32,960 Speaker 1: talk about how pretty she was. 322 00:17:33,000 --> 00:17:33,520 Speaker 3: She really was. 323 00:17:33,560 --> 00:17:37,199 Speaker 1: She was, she was a very pretty girl, you know, 324 00:17:37,240 --> 00:17:39,480 Speaker 1: And and I don't know, I guess, I guess I'm 325 00:17:39,480 --> 00:17:41,600 Speaker 1: looking at her at the beginning, I'm thinking, like I know. 326 00:17:41,640 --> 00:17:43,520 Speaker 3: This girl and I didn't and I don't. 327 00:17:43,680 --> 00:17:47,280 Speaker 1: But the way that you represented or not represented her, 328 00:17:47,280 --> 00:17:50,719 Speaker 1: but what you showed me at the beginning felt like 329 00:17:50,760 --> 00:17:55,640 Speaker 1: somebody that I absolutely could recognize, right, Like this young 330 00:17:55,720 --> 00:18:01,200 Speaker 1: girl very just the needy, wanting me to tension, wanting 331 00:18:01,240 --> 00:18:03,359 Speaker 1: specifically maybe she grew up very heavy, so she wanted 332 00:18:03,359 --> 00:18:08,960 Speaker 1: boys attention, love bombing to everyone that she love bombing, right, all. 333 00:18:08,920 --> 00:18:11,640 Speaker 2: Bring people's affection. I mean, this was something that didn't 334 00:18:11,680 --> 00:18:14,320 Speaker 2: make the cut, in part because it's not as important 335 00:18:14,359 --> 00:18:15,960 Speaker 2: as so many of the things that we do to 336 00:18:16,000 --> 00:18:19,200 Speaker 2: talk about, you know, But like former friends of hers 337 00:18:19,280 --> 00:18:22,800 Speaker 2: talking about, you know, always showing up with Starbucks every 338 00:18:22,840 --> 00:18:25,720 Speaker 2: time they went out to get the bill, you know, 339 00:18:26,000 --> 00:18:31,160 Speaker 2: just like you know, a way of kind of relying 340 00:18:31,200 --> 00:18:34,440 Speaker 2: again on things that are relatively superficial. I mean, they're 341 00:18:34,520 --> 00:18:36,840 Speaker 2: nice when they're done from a genuine place, but when 342 00:18:36,840 --> 00:18:41,280 Speaker 2: they're done because you fear that people don't like you 343 00:18:41,320 --> 00:18:44,040 Speaker 2: for who you really are, you know, and so there's 344 00:18:44,080 --> 00:18:47,240 Speaker 2: always stories about that, like you know, always kind and 345 00:18:47,280 --> 00:18:51,040 Speaker 2: it's part of the way that she inserts herself back 346 00:18:51,080 --> 00:18:55,080 Speaker 2: into Reagan's life. You know, she knows this woman is pregnant. 347 00:18:55,760 --> 00:18:58,199 Speaker 2: She absolutely knows why she's going over there, but she 348 00:18:58,359 --> 00:19:00,640 Speaker 2: like brings her a gift card, she brings a little 349 00:19:00,640 --> 00:19:03,840 Speaker 2: present for the baby. It's like, you know, and and 350 00:19:04,560 --> 00:19:07,680 Speaker 2: that's nice when you think it's genuine, like of course, 351 00:19:07,920 --> 00:19:11,240 Speaker 2: so nice when you think that someone's like thought about 352 00:19:11,240 --> 00:19:13,200 Speaker 2: you a little bit extra that day or went out 353 00:19:13,200 --> 00:19:16,199 Speaker 2: of their way to do something for you. And so 354 00:19:16,880 --> 00:19:20,879 Speaker 2: she also really like praise on you know, she uses 355 00:19:20,960 --> 00:19:23,959 Speaker 2: the the kind of niceties of a small town community, 356 00:19:25,080 --> 00:19:29,280 Speaker 2: the kind of social norms of like you know, looking 357 00:19:29,280 --> 00:19:32,720 Speaker 2: out for one another in close and also really praying 358 00:19:32,800 --> 00:19:37,520 Speaker 2: on on the best parts of people, which is like, 359 00:19:37,720 --> 00:19:40,240 Speaker 2: you know, Reagan, her victim was one of the few 360 00:19:40,240 --> 00:19:41,840 Speaker 2: people still giving her the benefit of. 361 00:19:41,800 --> 00:19:44,280 Speaker 1: The d I know that broke my heart when her 362 00:19:44,359 --> 00:19:47,200 Speaker 1: when when when Reagan's mom said something to the fact 363 00:19:47,280 --> 00:19:49,440 Speaker 1: like she had no one left right that believed in her, 364 00:19:49,760 --> 00:19:53,520 Speaker 1: and that it was so typical Reagan to you know, 365 00:19:53,680 --> 00:19:54,560 Speaker 1: rally around someone. 366 00:19:55,200 --> 00:19:56,320 Speaker 3: Yeah, had no one. 367 00:19:56,440 --> 00:19:59,359 Speaker 2: And in part because Reagan, you know, wasn't in her 368 00:19:59,400 --> 00:20:02,000 Speaker 2: inner circle. So it's certainly not like, oh, Reagan should 369 00:20:02,000 --> 00:20:04,080 Speaker 2: have known better. It's like this wasn't a person that 370 00:20:04,160 --> 00:20:08,720 Speaker 2: was particularly close to her, and she had a good heart, 371 00:20:08,920 --> 00:20:11,879 Speaker 2: you know, and we but she Yeah, we've definitely seen 372 00:20:12,000 --> 00:20:14,440 Speaker 2: in like a digital age, people can get bullied for nowhere. 373 00:20:14,480 --> 00:20:14,639 Speaker 1: You know. 374 00:20:14,680 --> 00:20:17,280 Speaker 2: It's like her instincts were I don't know, why would 375 00:20:17,280 --> 00:20:19,400 Speaker 2: I have any reason to believe this. 376 00:20:19,880 --> 00:20:23,040 Speaker 1: She's not my best friend, my wedding photographer, I mean, 377 00:20:23,119 --> 00:20:24,400 Speaker 1: for alone, be nice to her. 378 00:20:24,840 --> 00:20:25,480 Speaker 3: Yeah. 379 00:20:25,560 --> 00:20:28,439 Speaker 1: I thought that was also really fascinating, how like all 380 00:20:28,440 --> 00:20:30,960 Speaker 1: of a sudden, one day she's a recruiter and now 381 00:20:30,960 --> 00:20:32,080 Speaker 1: she's a wedding photographer. 382 00:20:32,160 --> 00:20:32,640 Speaker 2: Yeah. 383 00:20:32,440 --> 00:20:34,000 Speaker 3: Yeah, I don't like what is happening. 384 00:20:34,160 --> 00:20:40,320 Speaker 1: This person is she can transform herself and sell herself, right, 385 00:20:40,520 --> 00:20:44,280 Speaker 1: like did she have experience really in photography before she 386 00:20:44,320 --> 00:20:46,719 Speaker 1: started taking and she was apparently good at it. And 387 00:20:46,760 --> 00:20:48,560 Speaker 1: Reagan they had she was like they said, she was 388 00:20:48,600 --> 00:20:52,400 Speaker 1: like a bridesmaid. You know, she's like her very scenario 389 00:20:52,880 --> 00:20:55,520 Speaker 1: it's on. That part was just unbelievable. 390 00:20:55,680 --> 00:20:58,800 Speaker 2: Lots of jobs, lots of but always like you know, 391 00:20:58,880 --> 00:21:03,160 Speaker 2: we we have from the kind of coret evidence. We'd 392 00:21:03,200 --> 00:21:09,320 Speaker 2: have text message exchanges between Taylor and Angela, the kind 393 00:21:09,320 --> 00:21:13,600 Speaker 2: of mentor older woman who the chiropractor, the one where 394 00:21:13,600 --> 00:21:15,879 Speaker 2: she first comes to with her pregnancy, you know, and 395 00:21:16,400 --> 00:21:19,600 Speaker 2: Taylor had been telling her that she had been telling 396 00:21:19,600 --> 00:21:21,600 Speaker 2: Angela that, you know, she used to be a nurse 397 00:21:21,640 --> 00:21:23,840 Speaker 2: and she used to work in the medical field, and 398 00:21:23,880 --> 00:21:27,400 Speaker 2: like you'd watch these text messages. I think one day 399 00:21:27,440 --> 00:21:30,160 Speaker 2: at Taylor's work there had been an emergency. I don't 400 00:21:30,160 --> 00:21:32,480 Speaker 2: even know if that's true, if there had been an emergency, 401 00:21:32,480 --> 00:21:35,440 Speaker 2: but it's like by Taylor's account, she sprang to action 402 00:21:35,640 --> 00:21:38,680 Speaker 2: and you know, it reminded her of her old days 403 00:21:38,680 --> 00:21:41,000 Speaker 2: in the medical field. Meanwhile, this woman is twenty six, 404 00:21:41,080 --> 00:21:43,439 Speaker 2: Like what are we talking? When? When did you do 405 00:21:43,480 --> 00:21:46,159 Speaker 2: these things? But her ability to just kind of have 406 00:21:46,280 --> 00:21:49,639 Speaker 2: these things roll off the tongue. Also with Wade, you 407 00:21:49,640 --> 00:21:52,359 Speaker 2: know that she like convinces him that she knows a 408 00:21:52,359 --> 00:21:55,080 Speaker 2: lot about hogs, she knows a lot about, you know, 409 00:21:55,320 --> 00:21:58,800 Speaker 2: raising cattle, all of these things like that. That's very questionable. 410 00:21:58,800 --> 00:22:01,800 Speaker 2: I mean it's it's small town in Texas. Everyone's got 411 00:22:01,840 --> 00:22:05,160 Speaker 2: a little bit more familiarity with livestock than like here 412 00:22:05,200 --> 00:22:07,760 Speaker 2: in Brooklyn where I live. But like, you know, had 413 00:22:08,000 --> 00:22:12,280 Speaker 2: Taylor ever truly been hands on with hogs, I don't know. 414 00:22:12,480 --> 00:22:13,359 Speaker 3: And she got away with it. 415 00:22:13,440 --> 00:22:16,000 Speaker 1: I think about how she took her boss's title right 416 00:22:16,000 --> 00:22:18,920 Speaker 1: when she was at the recruiting She literally just said, Okay, 417 00:22:18,920 --> 00:22:21,840 Speaker 1: now I'm the vice president of recruit whatever she called herself. 418 00:22:22,240 --> 00:22:25,480 Speaker 3: Who it's yeah. 419 00:22:25,720 --> 00:22:29,560 Speaker 1: And but the so I always feel we're saying fascinating 420 00:22:29,600 --> 00:22:31,800 Speaker 1: because the whole thing is so awful and so tragic. 421 00:22:32,320 --> 00:22:34,840 Speaker 1: There is of course, that's what drives us, I guess 422 00:22:34,880 --> 00:22:36,919 Speaker 1: to a lot of this. Is it just I cannot 423 00:22:36,960 --> 00:22:40,119 Speaker 1: believe what she was able to get away with until 424 00:22:40,119 --> 00:22:41,760 Speaker 1: she wasn't right, you know. 425 00:22:41,840 --> 00:22:44,320 Speaker 2: I think part of it is that, you know, and 426 00:22:44,760 --> 00:22:49,200 Speaker 2: this is when I put myself, I can't put myself 427 00:22:49,200 --> 00:22:52,840 Speaker 2: in the position of Reagan's family. But when I imagine 428 00:22:53,080 --> 00:22:56,199 Speaker 2: how random this was for them, how because this is 429 00:22:56,240 --> 00:22:58,919 Speaker 2: not what we think evil looks like. This is not 430 00:22:58,960 --> 00:23:01,160 Speaker 2: what we think danger like, This is not what we're 431 00:23:01,200 --> 00:23:05,280 Speaker 2: taught to avoid. That, this is not someone who was 432 00:23:05,480 --> 00:23:09,200 Speaker 2: stalking Reagan. I mean, you know, as you know from 433 00:23:09,200 --> 00:23:12,040 Speaker 2: being interested in subject matter like this, like being a 434 00:23:12,080 --> 00:23:15,160 Speaker 2: pregnant woman is a very vulnerable time in a woman's life. 435 00:23:15,200 --> 00:23:22,520 Speaker 2: They are, you know, pregnant women get hurt, murdered, you know, 436 00:23:22,800 --> 00:23:27,639 Speaker 2: assaulted by their boyfriend's husbands, you know, their side like 437 00:23:27,760 --> 00:23:31,560 Speaker 2: all the time. But not by a girl that was 438 00:23:31,600 --> 00:23:34,639 Speaker 2: at your wedding, like you know, And so this just 439 00:23:34,840 --> 00:23:38,440 Speaker 2: isn't what we think danger looks like. And I think 440 00:23:38,480 --> 00:23:42,440 Speaker 2: that's part of what is so chilling, and it's it's 441 00:23:42,520 --> 00:23:47,640 Speaker 2: why there was nothing that Reagan or her family could 442 00:23:47,680 --> 00:23:50,480 Speaker 2: have done, Like there was no there was no warning, 443 00:23:50,600 --> 00:23:54,159 Speaker 2: there was no weird behavior. Taylor was actually crazy. But 444 00:23:54,280 --> 00:23:57,720 Speaker 2: like when it came to their interactions with her. 445 00:23:58,000 --> 00:24:00,160 Speaker 3: I would have never suspected, of course. 446 00:24:00,160 --> 00:24:04,240 Speaker 2: No, nothing. No, someone comes over and says, I'm pregnant too. Ps, yes, 447 00:24:04,840 --> 00:24:08,920 Speaker 2: we're both pregnant. Right, let's have a girl's day, right. 448 00:24:22,880 --> 00:24:24,840 Speaker 1: I just want to mention to you that I loved 449 00:24:25,160 --> 00:24:27,320 Speaker 1: the cinematography of it all. 450 00:24:27,880 --> 00:24:28,320 Speaker 2: Thank you. 451 00:24:28,640 --> 00:24:32,640 Speaker 1: There were moments that I thought we're so brilliant, specifically 452 00:24:32,960 --> 00:24:33,880 Speaker 1: some of the hogs. 453 00:24:34,359 --> 00:24:38,679 Speaker 2: I've found the hogs so interesting because you know, of 454 00:24:38,720 --> 00:24:42,679 Speaker 2: course we have to as a storyteller, I have to 455 00:24:42,800 --> 00:24:46,360 Speaker 2: think about how can I bring people into like an 456 00:24:46,359 --> 00:24:51,240 Speaker 2: emotionally evil hot you know, yes, mistake need to be high. 457 00:24:51,280 --> 00:24:54,040 Speaker 2: And so there is this thing when we would go 458 00:24:55,520 --> 00:25:01,520 Speaker 2: with my amazing cinematographer Jared Alterman and the second cinematographer 459 00:25:01,640 --> 00:25:04,680 Speaker 2: that came onto the project, Jeff Hutchins, when we would 460 00:25:04,760 --> 00:25:08,480 Speaker 2: go down to Texas and we first visited Wade at 461 00:25:08,640 --> 00:25:12,520 Speaker 2: his property, that the hogs that like, you know, they're 462 00:25:12,560 --> 00:25:16,680 Speaker 2: not these are not like farm piggies. 463 00:25:17,080 --> 00:25:18,040 Speaker 3: No time about Wilbur. 464 00:25:18,880 --> 00:25:20,719 Speaker 2: This is not this little piggy went to that like 465 00:25:20,800 --> 00:25:25,639 Speaker 2: these are they are you know, two hundred and fifty 466 00:25:25,680 --> 00:25:31,320 Speaker 2: pound roaches. Basically they are feral, they are aggressive, they're dirty, 467 00:25:31,440 --> 00:25:36,040 Speaker 2: they shriek like the sound of murder. They provided, you know, 468 00:25:36,119 --> 00:25:40,240 Speaker 2: to me this opportunity to be like things are happening watching. 469 00:25:40,080 --> 00:25:43,040 Speaker 1: It was it just it was between the hogs and 470 00:25:43,119 --> 00:25:45,400 Speaker 1: I don't know if they were crows, but there were 471 00:25:45,600 --> 00:25:47,439 Speaker 1: seven shots of when there were it felt like there 472 00:25:47,440 --> 00:25:53,440 Speaker 1: were just millions of crows. Yes, it all was so creepy, right, 473 00:25:53,560 --> 00:25:59,040 Speaker 1: and completely in line with what was happening you know 474 00:25:59,400 --> 00:26:02,000 Speaker 1: in the documentary like it was. It was all just 475 00:26:02,119 --> 00:26:07,080 Speaker 1: felt and that the way that you you sort of 476 00:26:07,160 --> 00:26:11,600 Speaker 1: juxtaposed the creepiness with the other piece of it, which 477 00:26:11,680 --> 00:26:16,240 Speaker 1: felt like, here's this young girl, she had friends, yeah, 478 00:26:16,240 --> 00:26:21,560 Speaker 1: she you know, the whole thing was so weird and 479 00:26:21,600 --> 00:26:24,879 Speaker 1: mind blowing. I mean, how do you feel like, you know, 480 00:26:24,960 --> 00:26:27,439 Speaker 1: you've now done it, You've made this film, you've wrapped it. 481 00:26:27,480 --> 00:26:28,280 Speaker 3: What are you left with? 482 00:26:28,359 --> 00:26:30,280 Speaker 1: And that's not my last By the way, that sounds 483 00:26:30,280 --> 00:26:33,080 Speaker 1: like a last question. You're not getting away from that easily, 484 00:26:33,359 --> 00:26:36,120 Speaker 1: But like, you do you think about this a lot now? 485 00:26:36,200 --> 00:26:39,919 Speaker 2: It was sure, yeah, yeah, for sure. To me, I 486 00:26:39,960 --> 00:26:45,800 Speaker 2: think that this is a film about red Flags. I 487 00:26:45,840 --> 00:26:50,040 Speaker 2: think that this is a film about you know, it's 488 00:26:50,080 --> 00:26:53,040 Speaker 2: not like when you get to the end of the 489 00:26:53,080 --> 00:26:56,560 Speaker 2: film or when you're getting to like the things that 490 00:26:56,560 --> 00:26:59,760 Speaker 2: Taylor ultimately does where it's like ha ha ha it 491 00:27:00,160 --> 00:27:04,840 Speaker 2: her all along, it's like, yeah, we know, like everyone says, 492 00:27:05,000 --> 00:27:07,280 Speaker 2: I never thought Taylor would do something like this. I 493 00:27:07,359 --> 00:27:09,880 Speaker 2: never thought she would kill someone. The second I heard 494 00:27:09,920 --> 00:27:12,560 Speaker 2: about what had happened over in New Boston to. 495 00:27:12,480 --> 00:27:14,399 Speaker 3: This time, I knew it was Taylor, right, you know. 496 00:27:14,480 --> 00:27:17,760 Speaker 2: So it's like it's this thing where both rays are true, 497 00:27:18,160 --> 00:27:21,479 Speaker 2: and I'm interested in the idea that this is a 498 00:27:21,520 --> 00:27:25,040 Speaker 2: film about gut instincts. This is a film about red flags. 499 00:27:25,240 --> 00:27:30,320 Speaker 2: Everyone in her orbit felt things were off. You know. 500 00:27:30,920 --> 00:27:35,040 Speaker 2: Wade is kind of busy and distracted and overwhelmed and 501 00:27:35,119 --> 00:27:38,639 Speaker 2: like out of his depths. But his mom thinks something's weird, 502 00:27:39,160 --> 00:27:41,400 Speaker 2: you know, and she plays people off of each other. 503 00:27:41,480 --> 00:27:45,360 Speaker 2: The friends think something is weird, you know, Wade's friends, 504 00:27:45,400 --> 00:27:48,640 Speaker 2: Cody and Steffanely. They It's like everyone has this kind 505 00:27:48,640 --> 00:27:51,239 Speaker 2: of gut feeling. So I think it's a film about that. 506 00:27:51,320 --> 00:27:53,760 Speaker 2: I also think it's a film about, you know, how 507 00:27:53,800 --> 00:27:59,280 Speaker 2: Reagan was was failed. You know, there were medical practitioners 508 00:27:59,280 --> 00:28:02,720 Speaker 2: who I am absolutely not blaming because they are following 509 00:28:02,840 --> 00:28:05,920 Speaker 2: the law, but they were really their hands were really 510 00:28:05,960 --> 00:28:06,480 Speaker 2: tied right. 511 00:28:06,520 --> 00:28:09,760 Speaker 1: But there was the want I don't remember the name 512 00:28:09,880 --> 00:28:14,040 Speaker 1: of this medical practitioner. They went to her and asked 513 00:28:14,040 --> 00:28:17,440 Speaker 1: her about the hysterectomy, and she said there are hippolaws. 514 00:28:17,640 --> 00:28:22,720 Speaker 1: But trust your she I mean, right, which to me, 515 00:28:22,920 --> 00:28:25,000 Speaker 1: that's that was a service that she did as so 516 00:28:25,119 --> 00:28:26,679 Speaker 1: much as she possibly could. 517 00:28:27,320 --> 00:28:30,520 Speaker 2: Right. But the idea that, like, you know, it could 518 00:28:30,560 --> 00:28:36,679 Speaker 2: be so blatantly obvious that someone within your community is 519 00:28:37,560 --> 00:28:39,800 Speaker 2: seemingly like up to no good. You don't know where 520 00:28:39,800 --> 00:28:41,760 Speaker 2: it's going. I mean, lots of people in the film 521 00:28:41,760 --> 00:28:43,400 Speaker 2: are saying, like what is she going to do? We 522 00:28:43,440 --> 00:28:45,040 Speaker 2: were all questioning what's she going to do? But the 523 00:28:45,080 --> 00:28:47,600 Speaker 2: idea that like someone in your community you can know 524 00:28:47,840 --> 00:28:50,560 Speaker 2: is up to kind of no good. The medical system 525 00:28:50,600 --> 00:28:53,440 Speaker 2: can know that something is not adding up, but they 526 00:28:53,560 --> 00:28:58,880 Speaker 2: can't actually do or say anything specific really feels like 527 00:28:58,920 --> 00:29:02,640 Speaker 2: in this case, it failed Reagan and her family. You know, 528 00:29:02,720 --> 00:29:06,800 Speaker 2: could there have been other ways to Warren? Could there 529 00:29:06,800 --> 00:29:07,680 Speaker 2: have been an intervention? 530 00:29:07,760 --> 00:29:10,720 Speaker 1: That's a big question. That's a big, a very big 531 00:29:10,880 --> 00:29:13,360 Speaker 1: interesting question. I mean, hippo laws are obviously set up. 532 00:29:13,520 --> 00:29:16,400 Speaker 2: To protect, yes, right, and in this case. 533 00:29:16,160 --> 00:29:17,080 Speaker 3: Yes they failed. 534 00:29:17,280 --> 00:29:20,640 Speaker 2: It's so you know they do the opposite, right, because 535 00:29:21,200 --> 00:29:24,719 Speaker 2: you know, even I mean, all of this is you know, 536 00:29:24,800 --> 00:29:28,680 Speaker 2: it's just all of this is a big game of if. 537 00:29:28,760 --> 00:29:34,200 Speaker 2: But like if a medical facility in this case, could 538 00:29:34,240 --> 00:29:37,040 Speaker 2: have said like, there is no First of all, you're 539 00:29:37,080 --> 00:29:39,840 Speaker 2: not coming here like you're you're posting things that say 540 00:29:39,840 --> 00:29:43,360 Speaker 2: that you're getting lab work and stuff done at our facility. 541 00:29:43,480 --> 00:29:46,360 Speaker 2: You are not. You have not come here, We have 542 00:29:46,520 --> 00:29:48,440 Speaker 2: not said that you're you know, like, could that have 543 00:29:48,480 --> 00:29:51,880 Speaker 2: stopped it in its tracks? Again, no blame to these. 544 00:29:52,120 --> 00:29:53,680 Speaker 3: Of course not, of course not. 545 00:29:53,760 --> 00:29:55,880 Speaker 2: They're doing the right thing. They're following the law. But 546 00:29:55,920 --> 00:29:59,200 Speaker 2: the idea that like you know, they couldn't in this 547 00:29:59,280 --> 00:30:05,760 Speaker 2: case interven with the truth right to protect the confidentiality 548 00:30:05,920 --> 00:30:06,560 Speaker 2: of a liar. 549 00:30:07,280 --> 00:30:09,880 Speaker 1: Right Even at the end, though even with all of 550 00:30:09,920 --> 00:30:12,960 Speaker 1: her lies, I was still and again I didn't know 551 00:30:13,000 --> 00:30:15,560 Speaker 1: the story, but before I watched, I knew what was 552 00:30:15,560 --> 00:30:16,200 Speaker 1: going to happen. 553 00:30:16,280 --> 00:30:19,360 Speaker 3: But yeah, I was still shocked. 554 00:30:19,400 --> 00:30:21,840 Speaker 1: By the ending, by the fact that it just was 555 00:30:21,840 --> 00:30:26,240 Speaker 1: there was such a leap between this pathological sick woman, 556 00:30:26,520 --> 00:30:31,280 Speaker 1: sick young woman and that kind of brutal violence, right, 557 00:30:31,400 --> 00:30:34,280 Speaker 1: and the way you opened it up also with her 558 00:30:34,320 --> 00:30:41,280 Speaker 1: being pulled over, it was just, I mean, gripping unbelievable. 559 00:30:41,440 --> 00:30:45,240 Speaker 1: I cannot believe that you had that footage to watch her. 560 00:30:45,400 --> 00:30:48,160 Speaker 2: I know, right, what strikes me so much in that 561 00:30:48,160 --> 00:30:50,880 Speaker 2: footage is there's this moment when she's like in the 562 00:30:50,880 --> 00:30:53,959 Speaker 2: back of the cop car. When we cut to that 563 00:30:54,000 --> 00:30:56,320 Speaker 2: scene later, it's so clear that like all she cares 564 00:30:56,320 --> 00:30:58,360 Speaker 2: about is Wade. She's like, will you call my husband? 565 00:30:58,400 --> 00:30:59,840 Speaker 3: Her husband called? Right right? 566 00:31:00,040 --> 00:31:02,280 Speaker 2: Hus been my husband and my husband. But there's this 567 00:31:02,400 --> 00:31:05,280 Speaker 2: moment where like a nurse were one of the e mts. 568 00:31:05,320 --> 00:31:06,400 Speaker 2: It's like wiping the. 569 00:31:06,360 --> 00:31:09,000 Speaker 3: Blood of yes, yes, yes, yes. 570 00:31:08,880 --> 00:31:15,480 Speaker 2: That's that's Reagan's blood. And here this EMT is thinking 571 00:31:15,520 --> 00:31:18,560 Speaker 2: that she is like helping this portrait woman just ate 572 00:31:18,640 --> 00:31:20,320 Speaker 2: birth on the side of the road is unclear. 573 00:31:20,520 --> 00:31:22,320 Speaker 3: It was so tender, right, No. 574 00:31:22,360 --> 00:31:25,200 Speaker 2: Tender of course, you know. And the idea that like 575 00:31:25,240 --> 00:31:30,320 Speaker 2: this this that Taylor could sit there and let someone 576 00:31:30,440 --> 00:31:33,600 Speaker 2: care for her in that way like receive. 577 00:31:33,720 --> 00:31:36,280 Speaker 1: Yeah, receive that kind of love when she had just 578 00:31:36,320 --> 00:31:38,240 Speaker 1: done this unspeakable. 579 00:31:38,280 --> 00:31:43,160 Speaker 2: Is a level of being off, evil, cruel. 580 00:31:43,760 --> 00:31:47,160 Speaker 1: Do you think that she's because I talked to you know, 581 00:31:47,160 --> 00:31:51,080 Speaker 1: I talked to directors and writer like, do you a 582 00:31:51,080 --> 00:31:53,120 Speaker 1: lot of I feel like that's a lot of them 583 00:31:53,120 --> 00:31:55,520 Speaker 1: are torn, right, Like you've been so immersed in this 584 00:31:55,600 --> 00:31:58,920 Speaker 1: story and you know Reagan and you know her beautiful family, 585 00:31:59,000 --> 00:32:01,520 Speaker 1: and you are you know, I'm sure I would think 586 00:32:01,520 --> 00:32:03,719 Speaker 1: at this point you're close with them. How do you 587 00:32:04,520 --> 00:32:06,720 Speaker 1: look at Taylor now? I mean, do you believe that 588 00:32:06,760 --> 00:32:07,520 Speaker 1: she's evil? 589 00:32:08,920 --> 00:32:11,360 Speaker 2: I mean, I guess, you know, this is a big 590 00:32:11,400 --> 00:32:16,760 Speaker 2: philosophical I guess I wonder what evil means in some ways, 591 00:32:16,840 --> 00:32:20,400 Speaker 2: because yes, there's part of me that's like, I'm not even. 592 00:32:20,280 --> 00:32:21,920 Speaker 3: Sure what that means? 593 00:32:22,360 --> 00:32:24,360 Speaker 2: What is that? Is there such a thing? I mean, 594 00:32:24,560 --> 00:32:29,920 Speaker 2: she wasn't tried on a defense of insanity. They didn't 595 00:32:29,960 --> 00:32:33,160 Speaker 2: find anything, but like, clearly something's very wrong with her. 596 00:32:33,720 --> 00:32:37,960 Speaker 2: She's she's cruel. She I do think she's evil. I'm 597 00:32:38,000 --> 00:32:41,240 Speaker 2: just not even sure. You know, on some level, I'm like, 598 00:32:41,320 --> 00:32:44,400 Speaker 2: what what does that mean? It's not a past to 599 00:32:44,440 --> 00:32:47,920 Speaker 2: see I ask you broken? You know, I'm grappling with 600 00:32:47,960 --> 00:32:49,959 Speaker 2: this all the time. I'm like, you know, it's certainly 601 00:32:50,000 --> 00:32:52,920 Speaker 2: not a past to say that something is broken in her? 602 00:32:53,360 --> 00:32:57,280 Speaker 2: Does she have a personality disorder? It was definitely premeditated. 603 00:32:57,560 --> 00:32:59,320 Speaker 3: Showed up with a scalpel or whatever. 604 00:32:59,520 --> 00:33:04,160 Speaker 2: She and she was thinking about what crime to commit 605 00:33:04,720 --> 00:33:08,160 Speaker 2: far before she decided that Reagan was going to be 606 00:33:08,200 --> 00:33:10,520 Speaker 2: her victim. She was kind of out there prowling for 607 00:33:10,600 --> 00:33:14,960 Speaker 2: like someone. She needed to find someone, and so, you know, 608 00:33:15,040 --> 00:33:19,200 Speaker 2: but there's a cruelty, there's like, you know, I'm I'm 609 00:33:19,200 --> 00:33:21,960 Speaker 2: a mom, I have an eight year old. The idea 610 00:33:22,280 --> 00:33:26,280 Speaker 2: that she did this to Reagan, to Regan's onborn child, 611 00:33:26,560 --> 00:33:29,719 Speaker 2: and Paul Reagan's daughter was at home, her three year 612 00:33:29,760 --> 00:33:32,080 Speaker 2: old daughter, and left her there. She left a three 613 00:33:32,200 --> 00:33:36,040 Speaker 2: year old in the house with her murdered mommy. How 614 00:33:36,080 --> 00:33:38,200 Speaker 2: can you describe it as anything but evil? 615 00:33:38,480 --> 00:33:39,520 Speaker 3: I grapple with that. 616 00:33:39,560 --> 00:33:46,120 Speaker 1: We've we've done we've done interviews with directors who you know, 617 00:33:46,240 --> 00:33:49,160 Speaker 1: directed a documentary about two fifteen year old who killed 618 00:33:49,160 --> 00:33:52,120 Speaker 1: their best friend, stabbed her death over one. 619 00:33:52,480 --> 00:33:56,080 Speaker 3: Okay, so and then but they were kids, right are 620 00:33:56,080 --> 00:33:59,320 Speaker 3: they kids? What is that sort of like or this 621 00:33:59,400 --> 00:34:05,920 Speaker 3: film in the crowd that I it's so whoa that one? 622 00:34:05,960 --> 00:34:07,520 Speaker 3: But it's not. But this one. 623 00:34:07,560 --> 00:34:10,200 Speaker 1: I'm telling you, this one has taken a toll on me, 624 00:34:10,400 --> 00:34:13,200 Speaker 1: like it's It's one of those documentaries where I'm going 625 00:34:13,280 --> 00:34:15,839 Speaker 1: to be thinking about it and I think in large part, 626 00:34:15,880 --> 00:34:20,600 Speaker 1: first of all, Reagan's beautiful mother and beautiful sister and 627 00:34:20,640 --> 00:34:24,239 Speaker 1: their her their beautiful family and very incredible and to. 628 00:34:24,160 --> 00:34:27,960 Speaker 3: Hear her mother's screams. Right, they had. It was so 629 00:34:28,120 --> 00:34:29,480 Speaker 3: heart wrenching and so. 630 00:34:30,320 --> 00:34:32,759 Speaker 2: And they've had to be so strong, They've had to 631 00:34:33,080 --> 00:34:36,399 Speaker 2: endure so much. It is so unfair what was done 632 00:34:36,440 --> 00:34:40,520 Speaker 2: to themful change their lives forever. 633 00:34:40,960 --> 00:34:43,360 Speaker 1: Yeah, their mother said, half of me is gone and 634 00:34:43,400 --> 00:34:45,359 Speaker 1: I don't even know what happens still here. I mean, 635 00:34:45,440 --> 00:34:48,839 Speaker 1: that's that would be what I would picture as well, 636 00:34:49,120 --> 00:34:52,800 Speaker 1: right of course, So they'll stay with me for sure, 637 00:34:53,560 --> 00:34:55,280 Speaker 1: as well as wade as. 638 00:34:55,320 --> 00:35:00,720 Speaker 3: But as this this horror show, right, this this. 639 00:35:01,320 --> 00:35:06,520 Speaker 1: Young woman who had two kids and was able to 640 00:35:06,520 --> 00:35:08,960 Speaker 1: commit this atrocity. 641 00:35:09,160 --> 00:35:11,239 Speaker 3: You know, do you does this stuff keep you up 642 00:35:11,280 --> 00:35:12,040 Speaker 3: sometimes at night? 643 00:35:12,120 --> 00:35:12,399 Speaker 1: Is it? 644 00:35:12,760 --> 00:35:14,279 Speaker 3: Does it sit with you like it would be? 645 00:35:14,360 --> 00:35:14,840 Speaker 2: Yeah? 646 00:35:14,880 --> 00:35:15,279 Speaker 3: Does it? 647 00:35:15,719 --> 00:35:20,680 Speaker 2: Yeah? For sure? I mean I absolutely. 648 00:35:20,920 --> 00:35:21,480 Speaker 3: I mean. 649 00:35:23,440 --> 00:35:26,799 Speaker 2: Because it's a real thing. This is a real thing. 650 00:35:27,080 --> 00:35:30,640 Speaker 2: Yeah happened, you know, right, Reagan was a twenty one 651 00:35:30,719 --> 00:35:34,839 Speaker 2: year old mother. She was there. I always think there's 652 00:35:34,880 --> 00:35:37,879 Speaker 2: this moment when she's like getting her sonogram and she's 653 00:35:38,000 --> 00:35:40,160 Speaker 2: like kind of looking over her shoulder and she's this 654 00:35:40,280 --> 00:35:42,759 Speaker 2: like twenty one year old young mother and like the 655 00:35:42,840 --> 00:35:45,799 Speaker 2: contentment and glow on her face about the prospect of 656 00:35:45,840 --> 00:35:46,879 Speaker 2: having another is like. 657 00:35:47,160 --> 00:35:49,680 Speaker 1: All over all she wanted to do was be a mother, right, yeah, 658 00:35:49,800 --> 00:35:52,040 Speaker 1: that's what her mom she was seventeen, or a psychedister. 659 00:35:52,440 --> 00:35:55,520 Speaker 2: He's a great mother, he's a great daughter. Like yeah, 660 00:35:55,680 --> 00:35:59,920 Speaker 2: think about I absolutely yeah, think about all of it. 661 00:36:00,080 --> 00:36:03,720 Speaker 1: It's a lot because I always grapple with like this actually, 662 00:36:03,719 --> 00:36:06,760 Speaker 1: like you just said, this actually happened, and I still 663 00:36:06,920 --> 00:36:11,719 Speaker 1: with now I've seen the film, I still don't get it, 664 00:36:11,840 --> 00:36:13,640 Speaker 1: Like what the fuck? You know? 665 00:36:13,840 --> 00:36:18,840 Speaker 3: It is so crazy. And anyway, I cannot thank you 666 00:36:18,960 --> 00:36:19,760 Speaker 3: enough for coming. 667 00:36:19,520 --> 00:36:22,239 Speaker 2: On so I talk to you and meet you. 668 00:36:22,760 --> 00:36:23,640 Speaker 3: I think that this. 669 00:36:24,200 --> 00:36:26,680 Speaker 1: Documentary was and again I've seen a lot of them, 670 00:36:26,680 --> 00:36:29,400 Speaker 1: now one of the most and I said this to 671 00:36:29,440 --> 00:36:32,360 Speaker 1: my producers gripping, you know, I think there was a 672 00:36:32,360 --> 00:36:34,600 Speaker 1: lot of reasons for that. I think the story in 673 00:36:34,640 --> 00:36:37,080 Speaker 1: and of itself is gripping, but also the way that 674 00:36:37,120 --> 00:36:40,160 Speaker 1: you told this story. I mentioned the cinematography, the way 675 00:36:40,160 --> 00:36:42,160 Speaker 1: that you showed us kind of as much as you could, 676 00:36:42,160 --> 00:36:47,719 Speaker 1: who she was, you know, before Gastric's sleeve, after what 677 00:36:47,800 --> 00:36:50,120 Speaker 1: kind of friends she was with the friends without the friends. 678 00:36:50,600 --> 00:36:53,239 Speaker 1: It was just really fascinating. So congratulations to you 679 00:36:53,320 --> 00:36:54,080 Speaker 2: Than so much