WEBVTT - How to Detect Deception with Susan Constantine 0:00:09.280 --> 0:00:14.200 It was Christmas break nineteen seventy five, and all of 0:00:14.240 --> 0:00:17.040 my sisters were home and we were having a great 0:00:17.120 --> 0:00:21.639 time anticipating Santa Claus coming. One of the girls in 0:00:21.680 --> 0:00:26.759 our neighborhood, Penny, her grandmama, came into town and she 0:00:26.880 --> 0:00:28.280 was only going to be able to stay a couple 0:00:28.320 --> 0:00:30.160 of days and then she had to leave to go 0:00:30.200 --> 0:00:35.200 to another state to see other grandchildren. So Penny got 0:00:35.200 --> 0:00:38.839 some of her gifts early. One of the things that 0:00:38.920 --> 0:00:44.000 she got was a pet rock. We all were freaking 0:00:44.040 --> 0:00:47.959 out over this thing. It was all the buzz. So 0:00:48.040 --> 0:00:51.319 she was standing in her front yard showing everybody. Now, 0:00:51.360 --> 0:00:54.200 she wouldn't let anybody touch it, but she would let 0:00:54.280 --> 0:00:57.160 us look at it, and you know, we were just 0:00:57.600 --> 0:01:01.760 captivated by it. A little while later, you know, we 0:01:01.840 --> 0:01:04.760 all went on our separate ways and I'm standing in 0:01:04.800 --> 0:01:08.400 my driveway just shooting baskets at the basketball goal, and 0:01:08.480 --> 0:01:13.000 she walks up and she says, hey, do you want him? 0:01:13.319 --> 0:01:15.679 And she had the pet rock in the little crate 0:01:16.360 --> 0:01:18.920 and I was like what, and she said, yeah, you 0:01:18.959 --> 0:01:22.160 can have him, and I went yes, And then she 0:01:22.319 --> 0:01:25.400 cracked up laughing and said, hey, it's not a lie. 0:01:25.920 --> 0:01:29.200 I had my fingers crossed behind my back and then 0:01:29.319 --> 0:01:33.400 she's scurried off like the rat she was. And I'm 0:01:33.480 --> 0:01:36.360 telling you, that's the first time in my life I 0:01:36.440 --> 0:01:40.479 had really felt just boon swaggled. I was like, how 0:01:40.560 --> 0:01:43.600 in the world would you just walk up to somebody 0:01:43.640 --> 0:01:47.200 who was minding their own business light of them, and 0:01:47.240 --> 0:01:50.440 then what is this thing about fingers crossed behind your back? 0:01:50.560 --> 0:01:53.600 It's somehow not a lie. So I went in the 0:01:53.600 --> 0:01:56.560 house and of course told my sister Shelley, who said, 0:01:56.880 --> 0:02:00.600 what now, Like she was so mad. She always had 0:02:00.640 --> 0:02:03.680 my back, still does, and she said, don't you worry 0:02:03.720 --> 0:02:07.000 about that pet rock. We got pets of our own 0:02:07.720 --> 0:02:10.720 and they fly. Well, I didn't know what she was 0:02:10.760 --> 0:02:14.520 talking about, but she wanted to take some tomatoes and 0:02:14.680 --> 0:02:17.799 get them back by throwing tomatoes at their house. That's 0:02:17.800 --> 0:02:20.840 a whole nother podcast, But I'm just telling you, people 0:02:20.919 --> 0:02:24.280 will lie, and people will have excuses for lying, and 0:02:24.320 --> 0:02:27.400 people will have these little ways of getting out of 0:02:27.440 --> 0:02:32.520 it really being a lie. There is nobody better to 0:02:32.639 --> 0:02:38.960 help us navigate this than the human light detector. Susan Constantine. 0:02:39.440 --> 0:02:44.160 She literally wrote the book The Complete Idiot's Guide to 0:02:44.240 --> 0:02:48.560 Reading Body Language. You've seen her on Doctor Phil, CNN, 0:02:49.080 --> 0:02:54.200 Nancy Grace, Good Morning America. She is renowned. She is 0:02:54.440 --> 0:02:59.200 revered with her expertise in body language. She even developed 0:02:59.680 --> 0:03:06.440 a unique way that she detects deception. She uses a 0:03:06.480 --> 0:03:12.880 combination of human behavior analysis, statement analysis, and voice stress 0:03:13.520 --> 0:03:18.240 analysis to identify deception, and she does it using three 0:03:18.440 --> 0:03:22.720 separate experts at the same time, so she knows if 0:03:22.760 --> 0:03:26.120 all three of them agree that there is deception, she 0:03:26.200 --> 0:03:30.080 would stake her reputation on it. She has worked with 0:03:30.919 --> 0:03:37.920 government officials, politicians, law firms, corporations, and celebrities. She has 0:03:37.960 --> 0:03:43.800 over a thousand hits on TV, print media, and radio. 0:03:44.360 --> 0:03:47.880 Susan Welcome, Welcome, design Saven. 0:03:47.840 --> 0:03:50.440 Thank you, thank you so much for inviting me, my friend. 0:03:50.800 --> 0:03:53.560 Are you kidding listen? I got to tell everybody before 0:03:53.600 --> 0:03:58.160 we get started. One of my favorite exchanges that happened 0:03:58.200 --> 0:04:02.040 at Crime Con Los Vegas was between you and my 0:04:02.120 --> 0:04:05.360 son Huck. So Huck comes up to me at my 0:04:05.440 --> 0:04:08.240 table and he's all excited and he said, Okay, tell 0:04:08.240 --> 0:04:10.119 me who some of these people are. And I said, well, 0:04:10.160 --> 0:04:12.240 you need to go right over there and meet that woman. 0:04:12.640 --> 0:04:15.760 And I'm pointing to you at your table, and I said, 0:04:15.760 --> 0:04:19.159 she's a line expert, and he went, that is so cool. 0:04:19.800 --> 0:04:23.080 So he goes over to introduce hisself while I'm finishing up, 0:04:23.520 --> 0:04:28.080 and as y'all are talking, I walk up and I said, yeah, 0:04:28.120 --> 0:04:31.680 isn't this unbelievable. She can tell whether you're telling the 0:04:31.720 --> 0:04:35.839 truth in seven seconds. Well, Huck turns to me and goes, what, 0:04:36.480 --> 0:04:40.120 And I said, yeah, she's a line expert deception. He went, 0:04:40.440 --> 0:04:43.680 I thought you meant she was a line like the 0:04:43.800 --> 0:04:49.320 King of the Jungle expert. I said, baby, why would 0:04:49.400 --> 0:04:53.360 a line expert the King of the Jungle line be here? 0:04:53.839 --> 0:04:56.119 He goes, I didn't know. I figured Tiger King. Maybe 0:04:56.120 --> 0:04:59.800 they had broadened it. He goes, but listen, you need 0:04:59.839 --> 0:05:02.160 to make somebody aware that. You can't just have me 0:05:02.360 --> 0:05:04.960 walk up to somebody and start talking and she's gonna 0:05:04.960 --> 0:05:08.279 know if I'm lying within seven seconds. And I said, 0:05:08.720 --> 0:05:12.040 you're at crime con and these are all experts. Why 0:05:12.040 --> 0:05:14.279 would you lie to any of them? And he said, 0:05:14.880 --> 0:05:17.920 I don't know. I'm a man, she's a beautiful woman. 0:05:18.279 --> 0:05:19.360 A lie I could come up. 0:05:23.880 --> 0:05:25.560 I never heard that story before. 0:05:26.040 --> 0:05:29.080 Oh my gosh, And then you and I started laughing. 0:05:29.640 --> 0:05:31.400 I don't know. I guess I made it more clear 0:05:32.000 --> 0:05:34.640 to him exactly what it was that you do, because 0:05:34.920 --> 0:05:37.640 you know, he's going into this field and he's gonna 0:05:37.640 --> 0:05:40.680 have lies told to him every day all day, so 0:05:40.720 --> 0:05:42.360 he needs to be able to pick up on him 0:05:42.600 --> 0:05:45.760 as an investigator. Right. I took a picture of the 0:05:45.800 --> 0:05:49.320 two of you. It is the cutest picture ever, and 0:05:49.400 --> 0:05:52.880 y'all are both like hmmm, like is somebody telling the truth. 0:05:52.920 --> 0:05:56.320 It's just adorable. And you know, again, I appreciate you 0:05:56.360 --> 0:05:59.000 taking time with both of my children, Carolina and Huck 0:05:59.560 --> 0:06:04.200 and giving them some of the you know, skills and understanding. Hey, 0:06:04.440 --> 0:06:07.400 y'all go read this book. Y'all take this online class, 0:06:07.440 --> 0:06:11.040 because if you can read body language and understand statement 0:06:11.080 --> 0:06:13.760 analysis in this business, it will serve you. Well. 0:06:14.320 --> 0:06:17.120 Yes, it's a you know, it's a technique that is 0:06:17.320 --> 0:06:21.760 a trained process. It's not something to where you're making 0:06:21.800 --> 0:06:24.960 these prejudgments. In fact, when I'm doing training classes, Cheryl, 0:06:25.360 --> 0:06:27.359 I raise I have people raise their hands as how 0:06:27.400 --> 0:06:30.120 many of you think you're really good at detecting deception? 0:06:30.560 --> 0:06:34.160 And all these people will raise their hands and it's 0:06:34.200 --> 0:06:37.000 really interesting because really fifty people at most people at 0:06:37.040 --> 0:06:39.839 fifty percent are best are able to really read people. 0:06:40.040 --> 0:06:43.000 But what they're really doing is they're their fault. They're 0:06:43.040 --> 0:06:47.520 making some judgments about people and reading body language. And 0:06:48.279 --> 0:06:50.200 at the level that I do it, and I know 0:06:50.320 --> 0:06:53.800 you do too as well, Cheryl, it's a learned skill. 0:06:54.000 --> 0:06:57.760 It's not a gut feeling. It's you have to really 0:06:57.880 --> 0:07:00.359 do your your work and then test it down in 0:07:00.400 --> 0:07:03.680 the field to make sure that you're accurate. And one 0:07:03.680 --> 0:07:07.280 of the things that you pointed out was that the 0:07:07.600 --> 0:07:10.600 methodology that I use, which is a three prong test, 0:07:11.120 --> 0:07:13.320 and it just made perfect sense to me that if 0:07:13.920 --> 0:07:16.680 a person was being deceptive and you can pick it 0:07:16.760 --> 0:07:21.240 up in their nonverbals or their behavioral behavioral analysis, you 0:07:21.320 --> 0:07:23.960 should be able to hear it in the vocal tremors 0:07:24.000 --> 0:07:27.400 through voice stress analysis, and it should show up in 0:07:27.600 --> 0:07:32.040 the language. So that's where I pulled that together, because 0:07:32.040 --> 0:07:34.960 we are we have multiple channels of communication, both verbal 0:07:35.000 --> 0:07:39.600 and nonverbal. When you're lying nonverbally, are lying, and you'll 0:07:39.640 --> 0:07:41.560 see it in the nonverbals, and you also see it 0:07:41.600 --> 0:07:45.320 in the verbals and in the language and bingo. It 0:07:45.480 --> 0:07:49.120 really works and it increases the level of validity therefore 0:07:49.240 --> 0:07:52.800 gives you a little bit more positivity that the person 0:07:53.040 --> 0:07:56.040 could be lying to at a higher level of accuracy. 0:07:56.800 --> 0:08:00.440 Absolutely, and you know the institute, that's how we work. 0:08:00.880 --> 0:08:03.840 And it's one of those deals where everybody needs to 0:08:03.880 --> 0:08:06.560 stay in their own lane and under their own expertise. 0:08:07.040 --> 0:08:10.160 And it gets rid of tunnel vision because if four 0:08:10.240 --> 0:08:13.520 people give me the same suspect and I don't have 0:08:13.600 --> 0:08:17.080 that suspect, what did I miss? What am I not 0:08:17.280 --> 0:08:19.840 looking at correctly? Or I just need to go back. 0:08:20.320 --> 0:08:22.320 That's all there is to it, because I'm going to 0:08:22.360 --> 0:08:25.800 trust those other four people. So I think the way 0:08:25.800 --> 0:08:28.920 you're doing it is just brilliant. But before we go 0:08:28.960 --> 0:08:33.400 any further, I want people to hear how you got 0:08:33.440 --> 0:08:38.120 into this business, because honey, it's not only unique, it 0:08:38.240 --> 0:08:39.560 is unbelievable. 0:08:39.920 --> 0:08:42.480 But you know what, I didn't really want to go 0:08:42.520 --> 0:08:45.319 through this, but it was interesting. At fifteen years old, 0:08:46.000 --> 0:08:49.120 I was asked to go babysit with a girlfriend of 0:08:49.160 --> 0:08:51.560 mine and in the area that she lived in was 0:08:52.200 --> 0:08:55.480 very highly stressed, it with very lots of racial tension. 0:08:55.520 --> 0:08:59.480 There was around the time, of course, when Martin Luther 0:08:59.600 --> 0:09:02.000 King had it was killed, and so she lived in 0:09:02.040 --> 0:09:03.600 this area. She was like one of the very few 0:09:03.640 --> 0:09:07.480 white families in this in this most African American environment. 0:09:07.559 --> 0:09:11.400 But they were the strong little Baptist family, and so 0:09:11.480 --> 0:09:13.400 I felt safe going over there. And they had a 0:09:13.480 --> 0:09:16.400 nice house and his parents, her parents were great. But 0:09:16.520 --> 0:09:18.200 my mom said, I don't know, I don't like you 0:09:18.280 --> 0:09:20.880 going over there. It seems like a bad part of town. 0:09:21.000 --> 0:09:23.240 And I'm going, oh, Mom, you know it's VICKI. They're 0:09:23.240 --> 0:09:26.120 a nice family, et cetera, et cetera. So she says, well, 0:09:26.160 --> 0:09:27.840 I'm going to tell you I don't like it, but 0:09:28.080 --> 0:09:31.680 you know, just be careful and you know, look out. 0:09:31.800 --> 0:09:33.920 So I did. So we went over there. I went 0:09:33.960 --> 0:09:37.240 over there, and we went over to a babysit at 0:09:37.240 --> 0:09:39.360 a girl's house around the corner. She had a four 0:09:39.480 --> 0:09:44.640 year old son, and you know, nothing unusual. And my girlfriend, 0:09:45.520 --> 0:09:48.800 out of nowhere, literally Eryl out of nowhere, looks at me. 0:09:48.880 --> 0:09:51.199 She goes, if you were if somebody were to come 0:09:51.240 --> 0:09:53.200 in here and kill us, do you know, if you'd 0:09:53.240 --> 0:09:56.000 go to heaven? And I was like, oh, dear God, 0:09:56.080 --> 0:09:58.079 all I could think about was going back home. 0:09:58.120 --> 0:09:58.840 And good back. 0:09:59.160 --> 0:10:02.520 My mom says to she was like, oh dear God, 0:10:02.679 --> 0:10:05.000 help me. This is not really what I wanted to do. Here. 0:10:05.240 --> 0:10:08.400 So anyway, I was like, you know, yes, you know, 0:10:08.440 --> 0:10:10.640 I basically gave her any answer she wanted to hear, 0:10:11.040 --> 0:10:13.840 just so we could get finished babysitting. And then we 0:10:13.880 --> 0:10:16.520 went back over to her house and nothing happened, nothing 0:10:16.640 --> 0:10:19.720 was unusual. And then a couple of weeks later, we're 0:10:19.760 --> 0:10:22.600 invited to go babysit again. And when we went over 0:10:22.640 --> 0:10:24.840 to go babysit again, we got a phone call right 0:10:24.840 --> 0:10:27.520 before we're supposed to go over there and the lady says, 0:10:27.559 --> 0:10:29.840 don't bother coming over, and my date stood me up, 0:10:29.880 --> 0:10:32.640 and so we didn't go. We were all bummed out. 0:10:32.679 --> 0:10:34.960 And of course, you know, making fifty cents an hour 0:10:35.040 --> 0:10:37.880 babysitting was our roller skating money, right, so that was 0:10:37.920 --> 0:10:40.360 like big bucks for us. And we were really disappointed. 0:10:40.400 --> 0:10:43.680 And it was in the summertime, so we're sitting on 0:10:43.720 --> 0:10:46.480 the porch and then up come drives up at dusk, 0:10:46.679 --> 0:10:50.320 this white man and it had carpet acres written on 0:10:50.360 --> 0:10:53.079 the side of it. And this guy gets out of 0:10:53.120 --> 0:10:55.120 the van after he parks right in front of my 0:10:55.120 --> 0:10:57.720 friend's house, peels off down the street and he's looking 0:10:57.760 --> 0:11:00.360 inside these cars and he's kind of jiggling in the 0:11:00.880 --> 0:11:03.480 door knobs and everything, and I'm like, just something on 0:11:03.520 --> 0:11:06.720 my hair. Stood, I'm going a danger, danger, danger, you know. 0:11:07.080 --> 0:11:09.080 So I got up and I went in the house 0:11:09.120 --> 0:11:14.640 and peering outside the windows, and then he kind of disappears. Well, 0:11:14.720 --> 0:11:16.000 to top it all off, at the end of the 0:11:16.000 --> 0:11:18.160 street ends up being a graveyard. So I'm just trying 0:11:18.160 --> 0:11:20.880 to set the scene for you in Zone seven. So 0:11:21.200 --> 0:11:25.880 anyway disappears and then out of nowhere, I mean it 0:11:25.960 --> 0:11:28.040 must have been a half hour or so, maybe forty 0:11:28.040 --> 0:11:31.040 five minutes, this guy comes running out between the house, 0:11:31.240 --> 0:11:33.880 my house, a friend's house, in the house next door, 0:11:34.400 --> 0:11:37.920 and it's that guy. So he stops at the back 0:11:37.960 --> 0:11:39.720 of the van. He looks right over at me because 0:11:39.720 --> 0:11:43.520 we're literally only feet apart. See this guy, He sees me, 0:11:44.280 --> 0:11:45.679 and then he opens up the back of the van, 0:11:45.760 --> 0:11:48.640 throws something in it, and then peers off down the street. Well, 0:11:48.679 --> 0:11:51.240 it didn't take very long after that that we ended 0:11:51.320 --> 0:11:56.079 up seeing helicopters flying overhead, and remember the graveyard iss 0:11:56.720 --> 0:12:00.000 just houses away, taking these big, huge spotlights and going 0:12:00.080 --> 0:12:02.960 through the neighborhood, and then policemen were walking police dogs, 0:12:02.960 --> 0:12:05.480 and he said, hey, have you kids seen anything? And 0:12:05.520 --> 0:12:08.280 I said, well, guy, I saw this guy. He had 0:12:08.360 --> 0:12:10.959 you know, described him totally. His hair is what was 0:12:11.000 --> 0:12:13.400 written on the van. You know what he was doing, 0:12:13.880 --> 0:12:17.120 his body language, you know how he was acting very suspicious, 0:12:17.679 --> 0:12:21.520 and we said, what happened? She says, He says, a 0:12:21.559 --> 0:12:24.520 woman was just murdered around the corner. It was the 0:12:24.600 --> 0:12:28.600 house we were babysitting for. So anyway, it was the 0:12:28.720 --> 0:12:32.560 lady were babysitting for. So the story is that she 0:12:32.720 --> 0:12:36.640 was a bookkeeper for carpet acres. The boyfriend was trying 0:12:36.679 --> 0:12:39.480 to get her to embezzle money from this company because 0:12:39.480 --> 0:12:41.880 it was a parent owned company and he was one 0:12:41.920 --> 0:12:45.120 of the sons, and she wouldn't do it, and so 0:12:45.480 --> 0:12:47.400 he got ticked off and he came on to her, 0:12:47.440 --> 0:12:50.800 strangled her, and then decided to kill her. And he 0:12:50.880 --> 0:12:53.520 killed her with twenty one times with a pairing knife. 0:12:53.559 --> 0:12:56.680 So even to this day, Cheryl, I will not leave 0:12:57.120 --> 0:12:59.400 a knife out on my counter. So I had to 0:12:59.440 --> 0:13:02.600 testify court. I was one of the primary witnesses and 0:13:02.720 --> 0:13:05.040 had to testify. And you can imagine how that was 0:13:05.040 --> 0:13:06.080 at fifteen years old. 0:13:06.200 --> 0:13:07.760 Fifteen years old. 0:13:07.600 --> 0:13:11.560 Fifteen and then anyway, he was busted second degree murder 0:13:12.080 --> 0:13:15.120 and then he appealed it when I was seventeen years 0:13:15.120 --> 0:13:18.439 old and had to go back to court testify again, 0:13:18.640 --> 0:13:22.880 and then bingo, he got second degree murder again. So anyway, 0:13:22.920 --> 0:13:25.520 that's what's my I think, my lead in into this 0:13:25.640 --> 0:13:29.680 crazy world of true crime. And I was actually a 0:13:29.720 --> 0:13:34.280 witness to it. 0:13:35.320 --> 0:13:37.920 Well that is quite an introduction to this world, ma'am. 0:13:38.360 --> 0:13:41.440 Yeah. I had never had any idea where that was 0:13:41.480 --> 0:13:44.000 going to take me, so I just really had a 0:13:44.160 --> 0:13:46.920 real desire for it. I thought it was just very interesting, 0:13:47.040 --> 0:13:49.600 kind of put it back in the back burner, was 0:13:49.640 --> 0:13:51.920 into a different career for a long time, and then 0:13:52.240 --> 0:13:56.840 I decided I wanted to took a dig a different route. 0:13:56.920 --> 0:14:00.640 And here's how it began, Cheryl is that I I 0:14:00.679 --> 0:14:06.440 started off as doing image consulting for attorneys, and I 0:14:06.840 --> 0:14:11.280 got a certificate for executive image consulting and I ended 0:14:11.320 --> 0:14:14.240 up reading a after I graduated, reading an article about 0:14:14.280 --> 0:14:17.280 a public defender that were ward warping their clients for trial, 0:14:18.040 --> 0:14:19.880 and I thought, wow, this is kind of cool. I 0:14:19.880 --> 0:14:22.120 don't think anybody ever thought about this before. And it 0:14:22.240 --> 0:14:26.119 just so happened that my mother had a nonprofit organization 0:14:26.240 --> 0:14:29.040 for people that have gone through personal tragedy, and we 0:14:29.080 --> 0:14:31.880 had an entire clothing center. So I pitched an idea 0:14:31.960 --> 0:14:34.640 to the public Defender's office and then loaded up the 0:14:34.680 --> 0:14:37.320 truck and went down there, and I said, I pitched 0:14:37.320 --> 0:14:40.600 the idea to the public Defender's office the very same 0:14:40.800 --> 0:14:44.680 courthouse where George Zimmerman was tried and convicted, I mean 0:14:44.720 --> 0:14:48.920 not convicted, but was where the trial was. So anyway, 0:14:49.920 --> 0:14:52.240 I had a clothing center in there, and then the 0:14:52.280 --> 0:14:55.280 attorneys would reach out to me and have me wardrobe 0:14:55.360 --> 0:14:58.280 and start to coach some of their clients based on 0:14:58.280 --> 0:15:02.080 what I learned in that course. But that was only 0:15:02.160 --> 0:15:04.880 the beginning. And then the public defender, one of them 0:15:04.920 --> 0:15:08.400 took interested in meet Jeffrey Leichel and said, Hey, I 0:15:08.400 --> 0:15:11.600 would love for you to come and watch me pick 0:15:11.640 --> 0:15:14.200 a jury. Maybe you can just watch and analyze the 0:15:14.240 --> 0:15:17.760 people or the potential jurors. So I said, you think 0:15:17.760 --> 0:15:19.200 I would be good at that? Because I don't think 0:15:19.240 --> 0:15:21.400 you'd be good at I think you'd be fabulous at it. 0:15:21.640 --> 0:15:23.640 So I said absolutely. 0:15:23.920 --> 0:15:27.160 In the courtroom, and I helped him to de select jurors. 0:15:27.200 --> 0:15:29.680 I didn't know anything about jury selection, but it just 0:15:29.680 --> 0:15:32.880 so happened that just a few months after that, he 0:15:32.960 --> 0:15:35.880 invited me to a conference and there was a booth 0:15:35.920 --> 0:15:38.240 there that was by Jury Quest and says, how to 0:15:38.320 --> 0:15:45.400 identify jurors through through This new program was an AI 0:15:45.560 --> 0:15:49.240 program and it was how to identify dangerous jurors scientific 0:15:49.320 --> 0:15:52.080 jury selection. So anyway, I told him what I was doing, 0:15:52.160 --> 0:15:54.880 and they thought that was pretty cool, and I said, well, 0:15:54.920 --> 0:15:56.760 I think what you guys are doing pretty cool, And 0:15:56.880 --> 0:15:58.800 before you know it, I'm hired now as the Florida 0:15:58.840 --> 0:16:02.360 area manager as a trial consultant. And the trainer who 0:16:02.400 --> 0:16:07.320 trained me did the I did the retrial for the 0:16:07.360 --> 0:16:10.600 Andrea Yates case, the retrial for where she was found 0:16:11.280 --> 0:16:14.760 guilty by reason of insanity. So anyway, that's what I 0:16:14.800 --> 0:16:16.880 did for quite a long time. And then during that 0:16:17.000 --> 0:16:20.800 time I went back to college and both of my 0:16:21.360 --> 0:16:23.280 two kids and I were all going to school at 0:16:23.280 --> 0:16:27.320 the same time. I was in my early forties and 0:16:27.520 --> 0:16:29.080 I went to you know, went back to college. I 0:16:29.120 --> 0:16:32.200 got my master's degree in psychology, all the while getting 0:16:32.320 --> 0:16:36.200 multiple certifications and everything you can imagine from investigative interview 0:16:36.240 --> 0:16:43.040 into statement analysis, to micro expression training to criminal intelligence training, 0:16:43.080 --> 0:16:45.080 you name it, and I still continue. I mean it 0:16:45.120 --> 0:16:49.240 is an ongoing process. So I got pretty well known 0:16:49.320 --> 0:16:52.040 for what I was doing, and then out of nowhere, 0:16:52.240 --> 0:16:56.920 I got a phone call from a reporter in Orlando 0:16:57.360 --> 0:16:59.840 and said, hey, listen, there's a big trial that's coming up. 0:17:00.160 --> 0:17:01.680 You might want to sit in on it. I think 0:17:01.720 --> 0:17:04.639 it's going to be very interesting. I said, really, He says, well, 0:17:04.640 --> 0:17:07.919 it was about a young girl who allegedly had killed 0:17:07.960 --> 0:17:10.840 her daughter, young daughter. It was Casey Anthony. 0:17:11.119 --> 0:17:13.040 Yeah, I would say that was quite an opportunity. 0:17:13.960 --> 0:17:16.720 So I ended up sitting in there for the entire 0:17:16.880 --> 0:17:19.760 time as an analyst. And if you can just imagine, 0:17:19.760 --> 0:17:22.240 it was almost kind of like you had stadium seating upstairs, 0:17:22.480 --> 0:17:26.399 and literally anyone in everyone were there, from Perraldo to 0:17:27.720 --> 0:17:31.359 Nancy would co there, Nancy and war own Pot outside there, 0:17:31.640 --> 0:17:34.960 and then Judge Jeanine Piro and of course inside Edition 0:17:35.600 --> 0:17:38.080 and Court TV. Back then it was called I think 0:17:38.160 --> 0:17:42.080 in Session with Ryan Smith and Vinnie Politan and you 0:17:42.200 --> 0:17:45.280 name it. I mean, everybody and anybody that was there 0:17:45.920 --> 0:17:48.800 in this business and true crime were there. So I 0:17:48.880 --> 0:17:50.680 was able to connect with all of them. Before you 0:17:50.720 --> 0:17:52.760 knew it, I was did over four hundred and some 0:17:52.880 --> 0:17:56.679 odd hits during that trial so you can imagine I 0:17:56.720 --> 0:17:59.840 was being flown from Good Morning America to the Today 0:18:00.080 --> 0:18:03.160 showed an inside edition and you name it, and that's 0:18:03.160 --> 0:18:04.159 what springboarded it. 0:18:04.640 --> 0:18:07.080 But you know, Casey Anthony is one of those folks 0:18:07.080 --> 0:18:11.879 that body language experts should study. She to me was 0:18:12.040 --> 0:18:16.960 almost cartoon like at times, like she would laugh inappropriately, 0:18:17.080 --> 0:18:19.400 she would have that smile. She would have her hair 0:18:19.440 --> 0:18:21.320 in a ponytail, she would take it down, she would 0:18:21.359 --> 0:18:24.520 have long hair. Some days. She would almost flirt with 0:18:25.119 --> 0:18:28.639 her attorneys. She would do her hands in an unusual manner. 0:18:29.280 --> 0:18:31.679 It was almost like sometimes she was aware the jury 0:18:31.760 --> 0:18:33.879 was there, and sometimes she almost acted like she didn't 0:18:33.880 --> 0:18:35.960 know they were even important to her. 0:18:36.400 --> 0:18:39.320 I'm going to tell you when I realized she really 0:18:39.320 --> 0:18:43.440 did it. There was a human decomposition expert that testified 0:18:43.760 --> 0:18:46.080 regarding the odor that was in the back of the 0:18:46.080 --> 0:18:47.560 trunkt You remember that. 0:18:47.760 --> 0:18:50.640 I do absolutely. She said it was rotten pizza. 0:18:50.200 --> 0:18:52.760 Yeah, robbing pizza, and it was like Maggot's or something. 0:18:53.400 --> 0:18:56.040 But anyway, when they opened up the trunk that this, 0:18:56.720 --> 0:19:00.719 you know, this odor just was overwhelming. Right that moment, 0:19:01.080 --> 0:19:06.159 when this expert stated that, I looked over at Casey 0:19:06.320 --> 0:19:11.440 and she showed a micro expression of disgust. Now, disgust 0:19:11.560 --> 0:19:13.080 is like if you take an onion, you put it 0:19:13.080 --> 0:19:14.960 in front of your nose, or you're making a pile 0:19:15.000 --> 0:19:17.479 of poo and you just take a big whiff. What 0:19:17.480 --> 0:19:21.679 do you do your nose crunches up, your eyes narrow. Well, 0:19:21.800 --> 0:19:25.600 that is a sensory part of the sensory of the 0:19:25.720 --> 0:19:30.560 human body. Right, she recalled that odor. She recalled it, 0:19:30.800 --> 0:19:34.560 So that's why she showed that micro expression and discussed 0:19:34.960 --> 0:19:40.040 other than fear, horror, sadness, none of that. It was disgusted. 0:19:40.640 --> 0:19:42.840 I was like, oh my god. In fact, I think 0:19:42.840 --> 0:19:45.720 I was on Nancy's show and I think that's when 0:19:45.760 --> 0:19:50.040 I stated what I saw that day. But that will 0:19:50.080 --> 0:19:53.320 never leave me. But she was different on the camera 0:19:53.400 --> 0:19:56.520 versus off the camera, and she did flirt a lot. 0:19:56.600 --> 0:20:00.600 She had those big, huge fanby eyes. She was very attractive. 0:20:01.080 --> 0:20:05.040 So the interesting thing was they seated her directly across 0:20:05.080 --> 0:20:08.040 from the jury, which is usually very unusual. She just 0:20:08.080 --> 0:20:11.159 be on the side, but the jurors were able to 0:20:11.280 --> 0:20:14.080 just watch her all day long, so it created a 0:20:14.080 --> 0:20:16.600 sense of familiarity, likability. 0:20:17.200 --> 0:20:21.600 Well, your insight has helped me because, like I said, 0:20:21.600 --> 0:20:26.560 earlier part of what she would do never seemed authentic. Well, 0:20:26.600 --> 0:20:30.199 now I understand what was happening. The focus group said this, 0:20:30.320 --> 0:20:34.200 So you kind of had to be a chameleon. They're 0:20:34.200 --> 0:20:36.399 telling you to do this. So okay, I'll wear softer 0:20:36.520 --> 0:20:40.719 colors and put my hair up and take notes. And 0:20:40.760 --> 0:20:42.000 again that wasn't. 0:20:41.760 --> 0:20:45.399 Her no now, and it's very strategic. I mean a 0:20:45.400 --> 0:20:48.280 lot of people will always wonder about that, you know, 0:20:48.320 --> 0:20:50.400 when you look at the color, the fabric, the hair, 0:20:50.560 --> 0:20:53.560 how they wear their hair, the ruffle on the blouse, 0:20:53.720 --> 0:20:58.240 the demeanor, the flat affect, and at times where she's 0:20:58.320 --> 0:21:00.280 off camera and then she's smiling and she got the 0:21:00.320 --> 0:21:03.680 googly eyes with Jose bias. So you know, when you're 0:21:03.720 --> 0:21:05.640 in the courtroom, and I know Nancy would have said 0:21:05.640 --> 0:21:08.080 the same thing, it's a whole different picture. You see 0:21:08.119 --> 0:21:10.520 a lot of things that people don't see even if 0:21:10.560 --> 0:21:13.560 they're on watching it on court a court TV or 0:21:13.600 --> 0:21:14.200 in session. 0:21:14.520 --> 0:21:16.919 Well, let's talk a little bit about facial expressions. So 0:21:17.000 --> 0:21:20.679 you mentioned the eyes narrowing. I've watched tons of people 0:21:21.320 --> 0:21:23.760 just clenched their jaw when they don't want to say 0:21:23.800 --> 0:21:26.320 something or they're getting you know, more angry about the 0:21:26.320 --> 0:21:29.800 line of questioning. Things they do with their mouth, you know, 0:21:29.840 --> 0:21:32.800 covering their mouth with their hand or whatever, tell us 0:21:32.840 --> 0:21:36.760 some of the facial expressions that you try your best 0:21:36.800 --> 0:21:40.320 to look for hone in on depending on who you're 0:21:40.320 --> 0:21:40.840 working for. 0:21:41.240 --> 0:21:44.960 The big thing is to look for anomalies. So you're 0:21:45.280 --> 0:21:48.280 trying to determine the person's normal baseline, which is very 0:21:48.320 --> 0:21:51.960 investigative one on one, how the person normally responds well 0:21:52.000 --> 0:21:55.359 in a courtroom. They're going to be there's going to 0:21:55.400 --> 0:21:59.320 be high anxiety anyway, So you can't really norm that person, 0:21:59.359 --> 0:22:02.440 but you can look for patterns and behavior over time. 0:22:02.880 --> 0:22:06.399 So what I do is I tie the stimulus, what 0:22:06.480 --> 0:22:10.080 is the stimulus? What was the question the probative question, 0:22:10.840 --> 0:22:14.639 And I'm watching the demeanor morph right. That can be 0:22:14.680 --> 0:22:17.359 either an expert witness, It could be, you know, someone 0:22:17.400 --> 0:22:20.119 in the jury box. It could be the defendant. So 0:22:20.200 --> 0:22:25.400