Speaker 1: It was Christmas break nineteen seventy five, and all of
Speaker 1: my sisters were home and we were having a great
Speaker 1: time anticipating Santa Claus coming. One of the girls in
Speaker 1: our neighborhood, Penny, her grandmama, came into town and she
Speaker 1: was only going to be able to stay a couple
Speaker 1: of days and then she had to leave to go
Speaker 1: to another state to see other grandchildren. So Penny got
Speaker 1: some of her gifts early. One of the things that
Speaker 1: she got was a pet rock. We all were freaking
Speaker 1: out over this thing. It was all the buzz. So
Speaker 1: she was standing in her front yard showing everybody. Now,
Speaker 1: she wouldn't let anybody touch it, but she would let
Speaker 1: us look at it, and you know, we were just
Speaker 1: captivated by it. A little while later, you know, we
Speaker 1: all went on our separate ways and I'm standing in
Speaker 1: my driveway just shooting baskets at the basketball goal, and
Speaker 1: she walks up and she says, hey, do you want him?
Speaker 1: And she had the pet rock in the little crate
Speaker 1: and I was like what, and she said, yeah, you
Speaker 1: can have him, and I went yes, And then she
Speaker 1: cracked up laughing and said, hey, it's not a lie.
Speaker 1: I had my fingers crossed behind my back and then
Speaker 1: she's scurried off like the rat she was. And I'm
Speaker 1: telling you, that's the first time in my life I
Speaker 1: had really felt just boon swaggled. I was like, how
Speaker 1: in the world would you just walk up to somebody
Speaker 1: who was minding their own business light of them, and
Speaker 1: then what is this thing about fingers crossed behind your back?
Speaker 1: It's somehow not a lie. So I went in the
Speaker 1: house and of course told my sister Shelley, who said,
Speaker 1: what now, Like she was so mad. She always had
Speaker 1: my back, still does, and she said, don't you worry
Speaker 1: about that pet rock. We got pets of our own
Speaker 1: and they fly. Well, I didn't know what she was
Speaker 1: talking about, but she wanted to take some tomatoes and
Speaker 1: get them back by throwing tomatoes at their house. That's
Speaker 1: a whole nother podcast, But I'm just telling you, people
Speaker 1: will lie, and people will have excuses for lying, and
Speaker 1: people will have these little ways of getting out of
Speaker 1: it really being a lie. There is nobody better to
Speaker 1: help us navigate this than the human light detector. Susan Constantine.
Speaker 1: She literally wrote the book The Complete Idiot's Guide to
Speaker 1: Reading Body Language. You've seen her on Doctor Phil, CNN,
Speaker 1: Nancy Grace, Good Morning America. She is renowned. She is
Speaker 1: revered with her expertise in body language. She even developed
Speaker 1: a unique way that she detects deception. She uses a
Speaker 1: combination of human behavior analysis, statement analysis, and voice stress
Speaker 1: analysis to identify deception, and she does it using three
Speaker 1: separate experts at the same time, so she knows if
Speaker 1: all three of them agree that there is deception, she
Speaker 1: would stake her reputation on it. She has worked with
Speaker 1: government officials, politicians, law firms, corporations, and celebrities. She has
Speaker 1: over a thousand hits on TV, print media, and radio.
Speaker 1: Susan Welcome, Welcome, design Saven.
Speaker 2: Thank you, thank you so much for inviting me, my friend.
Speaker 1: Are you kidding listen? I got to tell everybody before
Speaker 1: we get started. One of my favorite exchanges that happened
Speaker 1: at Crime Con Los Vegas was between you and my
Speaker 1: son Huck. So Huck comes up to me at my
Speaker 1: table and he's all excited and he said, Okay, tell
Speaker 1: me who some of these people are. And I said, well,
Speaker 1: you need to go right over there and meet that woman.
Speaker 1: And I'm pointing to you at your table, and I said,
Speaker 1: she's a line expert, and he went, that is so cool.
Speaker 1: So he goes over to introduce hisself while I'm finishing up,
Speaker 1: and as y'all are talking, I walk up and I said, yeah,
Speaker 1: isn't this unbelievable. She can tell whether you're telling the
Speaker 1: truth in seven seconds. Well, Huck turns to me and goes, what,
Speaker 1: And I said, yeah, she's a line expert deception. He went,
Speaker 1: I thought you meant she was a line like the
Speaker 1: King of the Jungle expert. I said, baby, why would
Speaker 1: a line expert the King of the Jungle line be here?
Speaker 1: He goes, I didn't know. I figured Tiger King. Maybe
Speaker 1: they had broadened it. He goes, but listen, you need
Speaker 1: to make somebody aware that. You can't just have me
Speaker 1: walk up to somebody and start talking and she's gonna
Speaker 1: know if I'm lying within seven seconds. And I said,
Speaker 1: you're at crime con and these are all experts. Why
Speaker 1: would you lie to any of them? And he said,
Speaker 1: I don't know. I'm a man, she's a beautiful woman.
Speaker 1: A lie I could come up.
Speaker 2: I never heard that story before.
Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, And then you and I started laughing.
Speaker 1: I don't know. I guess I made it more clear
Speaker 1: to him exactly what it was that you do, because
Speaker 1: you know, he's going into this field and he's gonna
Speaker 1: have lies told to him every day all day, so
Speaker 1: he needs to be able to pick up on him
Speaker 1: as an investigator. Right. I took a picture of the
Speaker 1: two of you. It is the cutest picture ever, and
Speaker 1: y'all are both like hmmm, like is somebody telling the truth.
Speaker 1: It's just adorable. And you know, again, I appreciate you
Speaker 1: taking time with both of my children, Carolina and Huck
Speaker 1: and giving them some of the you know, skills and understanding. Hey,
Speaker 1: y'all go read this book. Y'all take this online class,
Speaker 1: because if you can read body language and understand statement
Speaker 1: analysis in this business, it will serve you. Well.
Speaker 2: Yes, it's a you know, it's a technique that is
Speaker 2: a trained process. It's not something to where you're making
Speaker 2: these prejudgments. In fact, when I'm doing training classes, Cheryl,
Speaker 2: I raise I have people raise their hands as how
Speaker 2: many of you think you're really good at detecting deception?
Speaker 2: And all these people will raise their hands and it's
Speaker 2: really interesting because really fifty people at most people at
Speaker 2: fifty percent are best are able to really read people.
Speaker 2: But what they're really doing is they're their fault. They're
Speaker 2: making some judgments about people and reading body language. And
Speaker 2: at the level that I do it, and I know
Speaker 2: you do too as well, Cheryl, it's a learned skill.
Speaker 2: It's not a gut feeling. It's you have to really
Speaker 2: do your your work and then test it down in
Speaker 2: the field to make sure that you're accurate. And one
Speaker 2: of the things that you pointed out was that the
Speaker 2: methodology that I use, which is a three prong test,
Speaker 2: and it just made perfect sense to me that if
Speaker 2: a person was being deceptive and you can pick it
Speaker 2: up in their nonverbals or their behavioral behavioral analysis, you
Speaker 2: should be able to hear it in the vocal tremors
Speaker 2: through voice stress analysis, and it should show up in
Speaker 2: the language. So that's where I pulled that together, because
Speaker 2: we are we have multiple channels of communication, both verbal
Speaker 2: and nonverbal. When you're lying nonverbally, are lying, and you'll
Speaker 2: see it in the nonverbals, and you also see it
Speaker 2: in the verbals and in the language and bingo. It
Speaker 2: really works and it increases the level of validity therefore
Speaker 2: gives you a little bit more positivity that the person
Speaker 2: could be lying to at a higher level of accuracy.
Speaker 1: Absolutely, and you know the institute, that's how we work.
Speaker 1: And it's one of those deals where everybody needs to
Speaker 1: stay in their own lane and under their own expertise.
Speaker 1: And it gets rid of tunnel vision because if four
Speaker 1: people give me the same suspect and I don't have
Speaker 1: that suspect, what did I miss? What am I not
Speaker 1: looking at correctly? Or I just need to go back.
Speaker 1: That's all there is to it, because I'm going to
Speaker 1: trust those other four people. So I think the way
Speaker 1: you're doing it is just brilliant. But before we go
Speaker 1: any further, I want people to hear how you got
Speaker 1: into this business, because honey, it's not only unique, it
Speaker 1: is unbelievable.
Speaker 2: But you know what, I didn't really want to go
Speaker 2: through this, but it was interesting. At fifteen years old,
Speaker 2: I was asked to go babysit with a girlfriend of
Speaker 2: mine and in the area that she lived in was
Speaker 2: very highly stressed, it with very lots of racial tension.
Speaker 2: There was around the time, of course, when Martin Luther
Speaker 2: King had it was killed, and so she lived in
Speaker 2: this area. She was like one of the very few
Speaker 2: white families in this in this most African American environment.
Speaker 2: But they were the strong little Baptist family, and so
Speaker 2: I felt safe going over there. And they had a
Speaker 2: nice house and his parents, her parents were great. But
Speaker 2: my mom said, I don't know, I don't like you
Speaker 2: going over there. It seems like a bad part of town.
Speaker 2: And I'm going, oh, Mom, you know it's VICKI. They're
Speaker 2: a nice family, et cetera, et cetera. So she says, well,
Speaker 2: I'm going to tell you I don't like it, but
Speaker 2: you know, just be careful and you know, look out.
Speaker 2: So I did. So we went over there. I went
Speaker 2: over there, and we went over to a babysit at
Speaker 2: a girl's house around the corner. She had a four
Speaker 2: year old son, and you know, nothing unusual. And my girlfriend,
Speaker 2: out of nowhere, literally Eryl out of nowhere, looks at me.
Speaker 2: She goes, if you were if somebody were to come
Speaker 2: in here and kill us, do you know, if you'd
Speaker 2: go to heaven? And I was like, oh, dear God,
Speaker 2: all I could think about was going back home.
Speaker 1: And good back.
Speaker 2: My mom says to she was like, oh dear God,
Speaker 2: help me. This is not really what I wanted to do. Here.
Speaker 2: So anyway, I was like, you know, yes, you know,
Speaker 2: I basically gave her any answer she wanted to hear,
Speaker 2: just so we could get finished babysitting. And then we
Speaker 2: went back over to her house and nothing happened, nothing
Speaker 2: was unusual. And then a couple of weeks later, we're
Speaker 2: invited to go babysit again. And when we went over
Speaker 2: to go babysit again, we got a phone call right
Speaker 2: before we're supposed to go over there and the lady says,
Speaker 2: don't bother coming over, and my date stood me up,
Speaker 2: and so we didn't go. We were all bummed out.
Speaker 2: And of course, you know, making fifty cents an hour
Speaker 2: babysitting was our roller skating money, right, so that was
Speaker 2: like big bucks for us. And we were really disappointed.
Speaker 2: And it was in the summertime, so we're sitting on
Speaker 2: the porch and then up come drives up at dusk,
Speaker 2: this white man and it had carpet acres written on
Speaker 2: the side of it. And this guy gets out of
Speaker 2: the van after he parks right in front of my
Speaker 2: friend's house, peels off down the street and he's looking
Speaker 2: inside these cars and he's kind of jiggling in the
Speaker 2: door knobs and everything, and I'm like, just something on
Speaker 2: my hair. Stood, I'm going a danger, danger, danger, you know.
Speaker 2: So I got up and I went in the house
Speaker 2: and peering outside the windows, and then he kind of disappears. Well,
Speaker 2: to top it all off, at the end of the
Speaker 2: street ends up being a graveyard. So I'm just trying
Speaker 2: to set the scene for you in Zone seven. So
Speaker 2: anyway disappears and then out of nowhere, I mean it
Speaker 2: must have been a half hour or so, maybe forty
Speaker 2: five minutes, this guy comes running out between the house,
Speaker 2: my house, a friend's house, in the house next door,
Speaker 2: and it's that guy. So he stops at the back
Speaker 2: of the van. He looks right over at me because
Speaker 2: we're literally only feet apart. See this guy, He sees me,
Speaker 2: and then he opens up the back of the van,
Speaker 2: throws something in it, and then peers off down the street. Well,
Speaker 2: it didn't take very long after that that we ended
Speaker 2: up seeing helicopters flying overhead, and remember the graveyard iss
Speaker 2: just houses away, taking these big, huge spotlights and going
Speaker 2: through the neighborhood, and then policemen were walking police dogs,
Speaker 2: and he said, hey, have you kids seen anything? And
Speaker 2: I said, well, guy, I saw this guy. He had
Speaker 2: you know, described him totally. His hair is what was
Speaker 2: written on the van. You know what he was doing,
Speaker 2: his body language, you know how he was acting very suspicious,
Speaker 2: and we said, what happened? She says, He says, a
Speaker 2: woman was just murdered around the corner. It was the
Speaker 2: house we were babysitting for. So anyway, it was the
Speaker 2: lady were babysitting for. So the story is that she
Speaker 2: was a bookkeeper for carpet acres. The boyfriend was trying
Speaker 2: to get her to embezzle money from this company because
Speaker 2: it was a parent owned company and he was one
Speaker 2: of the sons, and she wouldn't do it, and so
Speaker 2: he got ticked off and he came on to her,
Speaker 2: strangled her, and then decided to kill her. And he
Speaker 2: killed her with twenty one times with a pairing knife.
Speaker 2: So even to this day, Cheryl, I will not leave
Speaker 2: a knife out on my counter. So I had to
Speaker 2: testify court. I was one of the primary witnesses and
Speaker 2: had to testify. And you can imagine how that was
Speaker 2: at fifteen years old.
Speaker 1: Fifteen years old.
Speaker 2: Fifteen and then anyway, he was busted second degree murder
Speaker 2: and then he appealed it when I was seventeen years
Speaker 2: old and had to go back to court testify again,
Speaker 2: and then bingo, he got second degree murder again. So anyway,
Speaker 2: that's what's my I think, my lead in into this
Speaker 2: crazy world of true crime. And I was actually a
Speaker 2: witness to it.
Speaker 1: Well that is quite an introduction to this world, ma'am.
Speaker 2: Yeah. I had never had any idea where that was
Speaker 2: going to take me, so I just really had a
Speaker 2: real desire for it. I thought it was just very interesting,
Speaker 2: kind of put it back in the back burner, was
Speaker 2: into a different career for a long time, and then
Speaker 2: I decided I wanted to took a dig a different route.
Speaker 2: And here's how it began, Cheryl is that I I
Speaker 2: started off as doing image consulting for attorneys, and I
Speaker 2: got a certificate for executive image consulting and I ended
Speaker 2: up reading a after I graduated, reading an article about
Speaker 2: a public defender that were ward warping their clients for trial,
Speaker 2: and I thought, wow, this is kind of cool. I
Speaker 2: don't think anybody ever thought about this before. And it
Speaker 2: just so happened that my mother had a nonprofit organization
Speaker 2: for people that have gone through personal tragedy, and we
Speaker 2: had an entire clothing center. So I pitched an idea
Speaker 2: to the public Defender's office and then loaded up the
Speaker 2: truck and went down there, and I said, I pitched
Speaker 2: the idea to the public Defender's office the very same
Speaker 2: courthouse where George Zimmerman was tried and convicted, I mean
Speaker 2: not convicted, but was where the trial was. So anyway,
Speaker 2: I had a clothing center in there, and then the
Speaker 2: attorneys would reach out to me and have me wardrobe
Speaker 2: and start to coach some of their clients based on
Speaker 2: what I learned in that course. But that was only
Speaker 2: the beginning. And then the public defender, one of them
Speaker 2: took interested in meet Jeffrey Leichel and said, Hey, I
Speaker 2: would love for you to come and watch me pick
Speaker 2: a jury. Maybe you can just watch and analyze the
Speaker 2: people or the potential jurors. So I said, you think
Speaker 2: I would be good at that? Because I don't think
Speaker 2: you'd be good at I think you'd be fabulous at it.
Speaker 1: So I said absolutely.
Speaker 2: In the courtroom, and I helped him to de select jurors.
Speaker 2: I didn't know anything about jury selection, but it just
Speaker 2: so happened that just a few months after that, he
Speaker 2: invited me to a conference and there was a booth
Speaker 2: there that was by Jury Quest and says, how to
Speaker 2: identify jurors through through This new program was an AI
Speaker 2: program and it was how to identify dangerous jurors scientific
Speaker 2: jury selection. So anyway, I told him what I was doing,
Speaker 2: and they thought that was pretty cool, and I said, well,
Speaker 2: I think what you guys are doing pretty cool, And
Speaker 2: before you know it, I'm hired now as the Florida
Speaker 2: area manager as a trial consultant. And the trainer who
Speaker 2: trained me did the I did the retrial for the
Speaker 2: Andrea Yates case, the retrial for where she was found
Speaker 2: guilty by reason of insanity. So anyway, that's what I
Speaker 2: did for quite a long time. And then during that
Speaker 2: time I went back to college and both of my
Speaker 2: two kids and I were all going to school at
Speaker 2: the same time. I was in my early forties and
Speaker 2: I went to you know, went back to college. I
Speaker 2: got my master's degree in psychology, all the while getting
Speaker 2: multiple certifications and everything you can imagine from investigative interview
Speaker 2: into statement analysis, to micro expression training to criminal intelligence training,
Speaker 2: you name it, and I still continue. I mean it
Speaker 2: is an ongoing process. So I got pretty well known
Speaker 2: for what I was doing, and then out of nowhere,
Speaker 2: I got a phone call from a reporter in Orlando
Speaker 2: and said, hey, listen, there's a big trial that's coming up.
Speaker 2: You might want to sit in on it. I think
Speaker 2: it's going to be very interesting. I said, really, He says, well,
Speaker 2: it was about a young girl who allegedly had killed
Speaker 2: her daughter, young daughter. It was Casey Anthony.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I would say that was quite an opportunity.
Speaker 2: So I ended up sitting in there for the entire
Speaker 2: time as an analyst. And if you can just imagine,
Speaker 2: it was almost kind of like you had stadium seating upstairs,
Speaker 2: and literally anyone in everyone were there, from Perraldo to
Speaker 2: Nancy would co there, Nancy and war own Pot outside there,
Speaker 2: and then Judge Jeanine Piro and of course inside Edition
Speaker 2: and Court TV. Back then it was called I think
Speaker 2: in Session with Ryan Smith and Vinnie Politan and you
Speaker 2: name it. I mean, everybody and anybody that was there
Speaker 2: in this business and true crime were there. So I
Speaker 2: was able to connect with all of them. Before you
Speaker 2: knew it, I was did over four hundred and some
Speaker 2: odd hits during that trial so you can imagine I
Speaker 2: was being flown from Good Morning America to the Today
Speaker 2: showed an inside edition and you name it, and that's
Speaker 2: what springboarded it.
Speaker 1: But you know, Casey Anthony is one of those folks
Speaker 1: that body language experts should study. She to me was
Speaker 1: almost cartoon like at times, like she would laugh inappropriately,
Speaker 1: she would have that smile. She would have her hair
Speaker 1: in a ponytail, she would take it down, she would
Speaker 1: have long hair. Some days. She would almost flirt with
Speaker 1: her attorneys. She would do her hands in an unusual manner.
Speaker 1: It was almost like sometimes she was aware the jury
Speaker 1: was there, and sometimes she almost acted like she didn't
Speaker 1: know they were even important to her.
Speaker 2: I'm going to tell you when I realized she really
Speaker 2: did it. There was a human decomposition expert that testified
Speaker 2: regarding the odor that was in the back of the
Speaker 2: trunkt You remember that.
Speaker 1: I do absolutely. She said it was rotten pizza.
Speaker 2: Yeah, robbing pizza, and it was like Maggot's or something.
Speaker 2: But anyway, when they opened up the trunk that this,
Speaker 2: you know, this odor just was overwhelming. Right that moment,
Speaker 2: when this expert stated that, I looked over at Casey
Speaker 2: and she showed a micro expression of disgust. Now, disgust
Speaker 2: is like if you take an onion, you put it
Speaker 2: in front of your nose, or you're making a pile
Speaker 2: of poo and you just take a big whiff. What
Speaker 2: do you do your nose crunches up, your eyes narrow. Well,
Speaker 2: that is a sensory part of the sensory of the
Speaker 2: human body. Right, she recalled that odor. She recalled it,
Speaker 2: So that's why she showed that micro expression and discussed
Speaker 2: other than fear, horror, sadness, none of that. It was disgusted.
Speaker 2: I was like, oh my god. In fact, I think
Speaker 2: I was on Nancy's show and I think that's when
Speaker 2: I stated what I saw that day. But that will
Speaker 2: never leave me. But she was different on the camera
Speaker 2: versus off the camera, and she did flirt a lot.
Speaker 2: She had those big, huge fanby eyes. She was very attractive.
Speaker 2: So the interesting thing was they seated her directly across
Speaker 2: from the jury, which is usually very unusual. She just
Speaker 2: be on the side, but the jurors were able to
Speaker 2: just watch her all day long, so it created a
Speaker 2: sense of familiarity, likability.
Speaker 1: Well, your insight has helped me because, like I said,
Speaker 1: earlier part of what she would do never seemed authentic. Well,
Speaker 1: now I understand what was happening. The focus group said this,
Speaker 1: So you kind of had to be a chameleon. They're
Speaker 1: telling you to do this. So okay, I'll wear softer
Speaker 1: colors and put my hair up and take notes. And
Speaker 1: again that wasn't.
Speaker 2: Her no now, and it's very strategic. I mean a
Speaker 2: lot of people will always wonder about that, you know,
Speaker 2: when you look at the color, the fabric, the hair,
Speaker 2: how they wear their hair, the ruffle on the blouse,
Speaker 2: the demeanor, the flat affect, and at times where she's
Speaker 2: off camera and then she's smiling and she got the
Speaker 2: googly eyes with Jose bias. So you know, when you're
Speaker 2: in the courtroom, and I know Nancy would have said
Speaker 2: the same thing, it's a whole different picture. You see
Speaker 2: a lot of things that people don't see even if
Speaker 2: they're on watching it on court a court TV or
Speaker 2: in session.
Speaker 1: Well, let's talk a little bit about facial expressions. So
Speaker 1: you mentioned the eyes narrowing. I've watched tons of people
Speaker 1: just clenched their jaw when they don't want to say
Speaker 1: something or they're getting you know, more angry about the
Speaker 1: line of questioning. Things they do with their mouth, you know,
Speaker 1: covering their mouth with their hand or whatever, tell us
Speaker 1: some of the facial expressions that you try your best
Speaker 1: to look for hone in on depending on who you're
Speaker 1: working for.
Speaker 2: The big thing is to look for anomalies. So you're
Speaker 2: trying to determine the person's normal baseline, which is very
Speaker 2: investigative one on one, how the person normally responds well
Speaker 2: in a courtroom. They're going to be there's going to
Speaker 2: be high anxiety anyway, So you can't really norm that person,
Speaker 2: but you can look for patterns and behavior over time.
Speaker 2: So what I do is I tie the stimulus, what
Speaker 2: is the stimulus? What was the question the probative question,
Speaker 2: And I'm watching the demeanor morph right. That can be
Speaker 2: either an expert witness, It could be, you know, someone
Speaker 2: in the jury box. It could be the defendant. So
Speaker 2: I'm looking at what are they exhibiting when they hear
Speaker 2: something that would have created what we call cognitive load,
Speaker 2: meaning that they know they're they're percolating different thoughts, different ideas,
Speaker 2: or they're trying to if it was a person and
Speaker 2: they were talking to one on one, they're trying to
Speaker 2: tell a story differently from what they know and they
Speaker 2: deviate from the truth. And when they do that, you're
Speaker 2: going to see a shift in their demeanor. So that
Speaker 2: can be in any way. It could be an eye rolling,
Speaker 2: It could be in a side smirk in their mouth,
Speaker 2: which is contempt. It can be a shift in their
Speaker 2: body language where they shift their body language and they
Speaker 2: point it towards the exit side. They could show pacifiers
Speaker 2: where they're you know, rubbing their clothing or adjusting their clothing.
Speaker 2: Could be a smirk, it could be a gulp or
Speaker 2: a yawn, there's so many a micro shoulder shrug. But
Speaker 2: it's tied to a stimulus. Everything is tied to stimulus
Speaker 2: and it has to start within seven seconds. And the
Speaker 2: reason why that is is that the rate of speed
Speaker 2: in which we talk, and we the words that we
Speaker 2: use in the rate of we talk f one hundred
Speaker 2: and twenty five to one hundred fifty words per minute.
Speaker 2: We know that from stenographer research. So when you get
Speaker 2: beyond that one hundred and fifty words, your mind is
Speaker 2: going to go on to something else, right, So it's
Speaker 2: tied to the original stimulus. Let's say, you know, we
Speaker 2: ask murdoch, Did you kill your wife? You might say no.
Speaker 2: Then you ask a question, do you know who killed
Speaker 2: his wife? No? Did you have anything to do with
Speaker 2: a disappear or the you know or the murder? Or
Speaker 2: know who may have murdered your wife? And then he shifts,
Speaker 2: he moves, and then he tries to over explain. He
Speaker 2: licks his lips. You see him rolling his tongue around
Speaker 2: the inside of his mouth a lot. He might show
Speaker 2: some crocodile tears. So now see now how you see
Speaker 2: how it's tied to that stimulus. Everything has to be
Speaker 2: tied to that stimulus. So that's how you know that
Speaker 2: that person's either lying to you or they're being deceptive,
Speaker 2: and it usually happens within seven seconds. Then they happen
Speaker 2: in clusters. If it's just one thing, they rub their nose,
Speaker 2: they stroke their clothing, they wring their hands, they tap
Speaker 2: their feet. It's really not an indicator of anything other
Speaker 2: than maybe anxiety. But if it's tied to a stimulus,
Speaker 2: a probative questions whether they're trying to derail or try
Speaker 2: to move you off from the truth and tell you
Speaker 2: something that's different from what actually occurred, you're going to
Speaker 2: see them in clusters. You'll see it and hear it
Speaker 2: in their voice inflection. You'll pause and hesitation, stammers, stops
Speaker 2: and starts, yawning, gulping, drinking water, or it could be
Speaker 2: in their language. Their language will show the same thing
Speaker 2: that pauses the hesitations, that stops the stammers, and then
Speaker 2: you'll see it in their body language. You'll see it
Speaker 2: happen in a cluster. So there's not one indicator of deception.
Speaker 2: It has to be a multiple things, a minimum of
Speaker 2: two to three that happened within the first seven seconds
Speaker 2: after the stimulus has been delivered.
Speaker 1: Some of the things that you were looking for and
Speaker 1: picking up on happened lightning quick. You know. I watched
Speaker 1: a comedian one time. He was talking about his wife
Speaker 1: always knows when he's lying because he talks higher. So
Speaker 1: if she said, you bought a new golf club, didn't you?
Speaker 1: What are you talking about? And he goes, but when
Speaker 1: I'm being romantic, you know, there's more bass in my voice,
Speaker 1: like hey baby, So she always knows on his tone
Speaker 1: in his pitch. And I thought that was kind of funny,
Speaker 1: and then I thought, you know what, that rings kind
Speaker 1: of true. And then I know, like in law enforcement.
Speaker 1: You can always tell if there's a little heightened anxiety
Speaker 1: because it sounds like they're running even though they're driving
Speaker 1: the car. You can hear that breath. You know, I'm
Speaker 1: now on Stonewall Avenue, I'm turning on b Stree Street,
Speaker 1: and that you know that breath comes. So you're looking
Speaker 1: for the facial expressions and the voice, the tone of
Speaker 1: the pitch, and then you're listening for statements, so you're
Speaker 1: looking for the number three and left and repeating words
Speaker 1: and self sentenceoring. You're doing all of that at one time,
Speaker 1: which again is extraordinary.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and that's why it's so important. And I tell
Speaker 2: attorneys they can't do this all on their own. They
Speaker 2: really need to have a person that is trained, that's
Speaker 2: there on their on their team, next to them at
Speaker 2: the front table during the jury selection or watching throughout
Speaker 2: the trial to pick up on these different types of movements.
Speaker 2: And you picked up you know about the the high uh,
Speaker 2: the anxiety. When a person is feeling highly anxious, it's
Speaker 2: like an anxiety attack. That's when they start to hyperventilate. Right.
Speaker 2: We all that with Murdoch a lot, right, he would
Speaker 2: you know, or you'd hear somebody calling a nine to
Speaker 2: one one call. Oh my god, oh my god. You know,
Speaker 2: it's like, oh my god, oh my god, oh my god,
Speaker 2: oh my god. Now, yes, that's true, someone would would
Speaker 2: do that. But then if you hear all of this
Speaker 2: in dead silence and you don't hear the breathing, and
Speaker 2: then all of a sudden they pick it back up
Speaker 2: again and do the same thing. I mean, it is
Speaker 2: really remarkable the narcissism that these perpetrators are murderers have
Speaker 2: because they don't realize that we can analyze that stuff.
Speaker 2: I mean, I'm telling you, you know, go ahead and
Speaker 2: tell the story, because I'm going to throw you on
Speaker 2: the voice stressed analysis analyze. I'm going to find out
Speaker 2: exactly where you're lying. I'm going to see it writing
Speaker 2: your language, and it's going to show right up in
Speaker 2: your behavior. Slam dunk, You're busted.
Speaker 1: There's the old thing about if people look to the left,
Speaker 1: they're being deceptive. I do that naturally, and it's so funny,
Speaker 1: like if I'm talking to you and you ask me
Speaker 1: something that I'm thinking, I tend to look off at
Speaker 1: almost a thirty degree angle. And I've often had people say, oh,
Speaker 1: you're looking to the left. You're not telling the truth.
Speaker 1: And it's always funny to me when they think that's
Speaker 1: the only thing you need to look at, and you
Speaker 1: haven't even, like you said, do the baseline. You hadn't
Speaker 1: watched me at all. But I read an article one
Speaker 1: time where people said, that's what Jackie Kennedy would do.
Speaker 1: She would look at almost a thirty degree angle away
Speaker 1: from people. She wouldn't look directly almost, And I thought, well,
Speaker 1: I'm in good company, then I'll take that.
Speaker 2: So Richard Bandler, John leval Ericson they developed this whole
Speaker 2: program called NLP Neural Linguistic Programming, and they're alleged research.
Speaker 2: They found that if you moved your eyes up to
Speaker 2: the right or the left, it would be between constructing
Speaker 2: a lie or visualizing, and then if you look side
Speaker 2: to side, that would be audit, which means you would
Speaker 2: recall a sound or recall a conversation versus fabricating that
Speaker 2: you recalling a conversation or something that was auditory, and
Speaker 2: looking down to the right or the left was really
Speaker 2: more processing. But anyway, to make a long story short,
Speaker 2: there's twenty two out of twenty three peer reviewed research
Speaker 2: articles that debunk that entire science. So it is very improper.
Speaker 2: In fact, law enforcements still use it. But what I
Speaker 2: will tell you that it does it is helpful for
Speaker 2: is it helps you to kind of know how that
Speaker 2: person processes. So if they tend to look up, they're
Speaker 2: more visual their auditory, they tend to look side to side.
Speaker 2: If they look down, they tend to be more processors.
Speaker 2: And then you can use that as a way to communicate.
Speaker 2: So if a person's looking up, you know that they're visualizes,
Speaker 2: so you use words like ce focus, you know, recall
Speaker 2: an image, et cetera. So you can kind of speak
Speaker 2: their language. And you know, all this with investigative interview
Speaker 2: and they use a lot of this, but the the
Speaker 2: actual whom John Levall and Ericson and Bandler's stuff is garbage.
Speaker 1: Well that's really good to know because I am extraordinarily visual.
Speaker 1: So again that's why I look up and to the left. You, ma'am,
Speaker 1: you have put together a solid all star team. You
Speaker 1: get to work with some of the best in the country.
Speaker 1: So you've got Phil Waters, who is a masterful interrogator.
Speaker 1: He had ninety six percent clear rate in over four
Speaker 1: hundred murders when he was a detective. That ain't too shabby.
Speaker 1: And then you've got Mark McLish, who was a statement
Speaker 1: analyst whose book I consider a must. Again, when you
Speaker 1: talk about your team and you talk about three or
Speaker 1: four y'all working at the same time, it's not just hey,
Speaker 1: me and some friends are getting together.
Speaker 2: Now, so let me share with you how we do that.
Speaker 2: So in the Michael Jackson case, the attorney had seen
Speaker 2: me on or TV and they wanted me to analyze
Speaker 2: the deposition tapes of Wade Robson and James Safechuck regarding
Speaker 2: the sexual allegations by Michael Jackson. Now here's is post
Speaker 2: after his death. They are now suing the estate and
Speaker 2: so they were weren't They weren't getting anywhere, So they
Speaker 2: wanted this documentary to come out never Land one and two,
Speaker 2: and they wanted to show that, you know, if they're lying.
Speaker 2: They wanted to present that to Netflix to tell them that, listen,
Speaker 2: you're putting on a program with to confirm liars or
Speaker 2: not liars. So then what I do is I don't
Speaker 2: tell my team. And they keep in mind they have
Speaker 2: their own businesses. They're trainers and experts on their own,
Speaker 2: but I collectively pulled them together as people that I
Speaker 2: use as my experts, who I use and who I've
Speaker 2: been trained by. So I pulled them together and say,
Speaker 2: here's here's the case. We got a Michael Jackson case.
Speaker 2: I want you to analyze. Here's seven hours of deposition.
Speaker 2: Here's the audio, here's the transcripts. I'll do the behavior
Speaker 2: analysis I want. Well, Mark didn't do this one, but
Speaker 2: it was Bob Schaeffer. He's also on my team. He
Speaker 2: is a trainer in statement analysis. I want you to
Speaker 2: analyze all the statements. And then Jerry Krotti, who I
Speaker 2: used as he's an examiner, voice stress analysis examiner and trainer,
Speaker 2: do your work, and then, you know, put your reports
Speaker 2: together and then provide them for me. So I don't
Speaker 2: put it all in one report. I give them three
Speaker 2: separate reports. I don't ask them what they found. I
Speaker 2: don't ask them what they think. I don't encourage them
Speaker 2: to move one way or the other or slant it
Speaker 2: one way or another. But interestingly, how we all came
Speaker 2: up with very similar results. So that's how I do that,
Speaker 2: you know, and we've done that in a lot of
Speaker 2: different cases. I found that it's very helpful because it
Speaker 2: really removes a lot of cognitive buys in your own
Speaker 2: personal buyas. Because frankly, I liked Michael Jackson. I saw
Speaker 2: him in Sweden and so I mean I grew up
Speaker 2: in you know, Grand Rapids, Michigan, outside of Detroit, so
Speaker 2: motion was huge. So I had to make sure that
Speaker 2: I wasn't going to have my own biases interjected into
Speaker 2: my analysis and slant it. And that's one thing that's
Speaker 2: that you know, people have to realize that what we're
Speaker 2: doing is this is subjective analysis, right. It's based on science,
Speaker 2: and it's been you know, validated science, has been vetted
Speaker 2: in the field. But that examiner can switch it anyway
Speaker 2: they wanted to go. When it comes to behavioral analysis,
Speaker 2: you can't do it with voice stress analysis, and you
Speaker 2: can't change it with the language they use. So that's
Speaker 2: why it's really important to do the three prong tests.
Speaker 1: And that's just solid investigative work right there to me,
Speaker 1: because again, it takes away what you're saying, your bias.
Speaker 1: It takes away putting on blinders where you're just adamant
Speaker 1: that this person had to be the one to do it.
Speaker 1: You don't have that. I mean, it removes those two
Speaker 1: issues completely.
Speaker 2: Yeah, Cheryl, we had a case and I can't name
Speaker 2: it this as an active case, but we are all
Speaker 2: analyzing and every single time everything came up deceptive, deceptive, deceptive, deceptive,
Speaker 2: and we examined and re examined and redid and we
Speaker 2: cut it apart and redid it, and every single time
Speaker 2: said how many times do we need to tell you
Speaker 2: your client's deceptive? And it's like, you know, and that
Speaker 2: they would take that and go okay, hey, this is
Speaker 2: what a good a lawyer would do is say, okay,
Speaker 2: now that I know that, I'm going to steer clear
Speaker 2: from that and I'm going to redirect it somewhere else.
Speaker 2: And that's where the trial strategy is very interesting. How
Speaker 2: you can use that actually is not a negative thing.
Speaker 2: It could be a positive thing. Knowing what to steer
Speaker 2: away from because you could, you know, your client could
Speaker 2: repeach you. You know, if you didn't provide them with
Speaker 2: the truth, whether they like to hear it or not,
Speaker 2: then we're doing them a disservice and their client a disservice.
Speaker 1: And you know, it's funny. I have four sisters, but
Speaker 1: one sister, Sharon, she cannot hide how she feels on
Speaker 1: her face. And we all joke with her about you
Speaker 1: could never play poker professionally. You couldn't even play with us,
Speaker 1: you know. And there was a meme that I saw
Speaker 1: one time that I sent her, and I'm paraphrasing. I
Speaker 1: don't remember exactly what it said, but it was something like,
Speaker 1: I didn't mean to say that so loud with my face.
Speaker 1: And that's Sharon. If she is happy or hurt or frustrated,
Speaker 1: or excited or scared or just anticipating with excitement, you
Speaker 1: know it immediately. So a lot of times in the
Speaker 1: family dynamic, if we're in a room and somebody says
Speaker 1: something that might be controversial or might be yes or
Speaker 1: no or whatever, I will find myself. I'll look to
Speaker 1: her immediately. Then I've already read the room. I'm good.
Speaker 1: I know we we're either going to do it or
Speaker 1: not do it because she can't hide it, you know.
Speaker 1: And so when you work, I know you have worked
Speaker 1: some major, major cases you mentioned, you know, Jeffery Epstein
Speaker 1: and Michael Jackson and Casey Anthony, George Zimmerman. But you
Speaker 1: have also done some things with public defenders and government
Speaker 1: officials and famous people. And here's one thing I wanted
Speaker 1: to make a real point about. And you don't have
Speaker 1: to name anybody, obviously, but if I were like Oprah famous,
Speaker 1: I know why she only fools with Gail, because you
Speaker 1: really can't trust anybody else once you get to her level. Right, Like,
Speaker 1: you've got all this money, you've got all these famous
Speaker 1: connections with people, you do these magnificent things in the world.
Speaker 1: You can travel wherever you want. Of course, people are
Speaker 1: going to want to gravitate towards you. So to me,
Speaker 1: your job if you're somebody like j Lo. Okay, you, Susan,
Speaker 1: go interview those dancers, you interview the's. You tell me
Speaker 1: if there's somebody here that shouldn't be here, shouldn't be
Speaker 1: around me, isn't here for the right reason?
Speaker 2: Yes? So, I mean, early on to your point. You
Speaker 2: remember the singer Kurk Cubine and his girlfriend, who is
Speaker 2: Courtney Love.
Speaker 1: Oh, yes, she's a singer too, exactly.
Speaker 2: And she was my first client before actually really got
Speaker 2: into the field, and that was when I was doing
Speaker 2: executive image consulting. I was called to prepare her for
Speaker 2: her court trial. And but you know, it's interesting just
Speaker 2: watching the dynamics. When I showed up in a hotel
Speaker 2: room her assistant, it was like, you know the yes people,
Speaker 2: right that they're They're these individuals that regardless of what
Speaker 2: they say, what they do, they're they're just so mesmerized
Speaker 2: to be in that person's presence and they're really not
Speaker 2: what I would call that really true friend, right, They're not.
Speaker 2: They don't. There's not the authenticity that's going on. And
Speaker 2: I picked it up right away and I thought, oh
Speaker 2: my god, that poor girl. She's surrounded around these people
Speaker 2: that are just giving her what she wants. And we
Speaker 2: know drugs, alcoholic cause the next morning when I showed
Speaker 2: up after I worked with it, I went into the room.
Speaker 2: I couldn't believe what I saw. It was like a
Speaker 2: frat party, alcohol cigarettes, barf all on the side of
Speaker 2: her bed. It was the barf that was up in
Speaker 2: the and the toilet was overflowing. It was disgusting. So
Speaker 2: there's people get mesmerized by they they're really not their
Speaker 2: true friends there they You know, we see this so often,
Speaker 2: so I understand someone like Oprah. It's got to be
Speaker 2: a lonely, really place to be because you can't confide
Speaker 2: and everybody because of who you.
Speaker 1: Are, and I preach get your own zone seven. Those
Speaker 1: people that have your bag, that truly support you, that
Speaker 1: cheer for you, that clap for you, that you know
Speaker 1: are going to defend you when you're not there, and
Speaker 1: some body that's going to tell you the truth.
Speaker 2: Amen's sister. I tell you, I can't tell you how
Speaker 2: many people I've had to remove out of my environment
Speaker 2: because of the work we do. Some people are just
Speaker 2: very threatened and they love to, you know, you know,
Speaker 2: cut say things that are inappropriate, or cut you down
Speaker 2: to elevate themselves. Of course, we know how to read
Speaker 2: through all of that, and you know, you have to
Speaker 2: create these really safe boundaries protection and people like you see,
Speaker 2: we all get each other, right. So we're here on
Speaker 2: the sidelines and we're waiving all the you know, the
Speaker 2: pom poms because we know we respect. We get it.
Speaker 2: You know, we're the same of ego, strength, different personalities,
Speaker 2: but we get it. We're on a not a better plane,
Speaker 2: a different plane, just in a different plane that we're
Speaker 2: not threatened or intimidated by other people. But people that
Speaker 2: are insecure, people that are struggling with their own self esteem,
Speaker 2: they can create havoc in your life, and I have
Speaker 2: even in my own business. And the more I've rinked up,
Speaker 2: the smaller my circle becomes.
Speaker 1: You can deduce from a mugshot, from a clip, just
Speaker 1: a quick TV clip, even maybe somebody you have not
Speaker 1: officially been hired for. But if I were to show
Speaker 1: you a clip of somebody, you might go, well, he
Speaker 1: seems resentful, or he seems upset, or he seems agitated.
Speaker 1: Whatever word you may use will give me insight. This
Speaker 1: is how we should question this person. This is how
Speaker 1: we should approach this person. Just like you saying, if
Speaker 1: somebody is visual versus you know, so you speak to
Speaker 1: that a little bit of how you can work in
Speaker 1: very limited information.
Speaker 2: That's a really good point too, because I've been traded
Speaker 2: in what we call the facial action coding system, and
Speaker 2: I would not advise any way to take that course
Speaker 2: because it's grueling. But even though it's really good, it's
Speaker 2: really understanding the actual skeleton, the muscular or features of
Speaker 2: a face that is underneath our skin. And we have
Speaker 2: like fifty two different muscles and they move, they and
Speaker 2: they they're combined in different movements and they create these expressions.
Speaker 2: So My job was in the training is to code them.
Speaker 2: That's why it's called facial action coding system. You're coding
Speaker 2: the movements and those movements when studied over a massive population.
Speaker 2: And this is where AI really gets exciting, is that
Speaker 2: we can measure these movements and then we can cross
Speaker 2: culturally analyze, so we know, like certain cultures with kind
Speaker 2: of you know, their facial expressions, like in certain Asian population,
Speaker 2: they don't show necessarily as facial expressions as overt you know,
Speaker 2: different cultures are taught different things and so they know
Speaker 2: how to control them. But the bottom line is these
Speaker 2: movements give us insight and gives me insight to what
Speaker 2: emotionally is processing internally. So then you tie that to
Speaker 2: the stimulus. Maybe it could be even something that with
Speaker 2: their mind is kind of drifting off or recalling something.
Speaker 2: You can see these movements, which we know universally there's
Speaker 2: seven of them, but we've gone so far beyond that,
Speaker 2: way beyond that to be able to know there's hundreds
Speaker 2: of emotions that we analyze and it has to be
Speaker 2: taken into context. So when I look at a video,
Speaker 2: I'm watching the movements and I'm coding them. Okay, that's
Speaker 2: an F three, that's an F four, that's an F five,
Speaker 2: or whatever. It's facial action. It's they're called units. So
Speaker 2: I'm looking at them coding it, and then i am
Speaker 2: I'm also doing a scan analysis, so that's just the face.
Speaker 2: Scan analysis is a little bit different because it is
Speaker 2: based on that seven to second theory, right stimulus watching
Speaker 2: those movements and I'm just watching the facial expressions more
Speaker 2: if I'm watching the body movements. And we know that
Speaker 2: in certain cultures there's different movements based on a specific culture,
Speaker 2: so there's no universal body language movements that has a
Speaker 2: specific definition. You have to take it all into context.
Speaker 2: And that's where it really becomes very tedious process because
Speaker 2: when I'm analyzing a video, just to kind of give
Speaker 2: you my I'm going to give you your viewers my
Speaker 2: what I do when I'm behind the scene. This is
Speaker 2: what I do. I take what they're the video, the
Speaker 2: piece of clip, I upload it into a program called
Speaker 2: rev dot com. Rev dot com will trans take the
Speaker 2: verbal and then translate it into text and then you
Speaker 2: can watch the text highlight as the person is talking,
Speaker 2: so you know what words are highlighted. And now I'm
Speaker 2: watching the face right. So I begin by looking at
Speaker 2: a video I watch I slow it down. Well, the
Speaker 2: first time I do it, I look at it in
Speaker 2: real time, and then I start to slow it down.
Speaker 2: So I slow the speed down, and I now I'm
Speaker 2: watching the movement's going like, oh, that weird sound. But
Speaker 2: we're watching the muscular facial expressions morph and move same time.
Speaker 2: You can see their body language, and then you tie
Speaker 2: it into their words, what they're saying that's creating that emotion,
Speaker 2: and then you start to find patterns and their behavior.
Speaker 2: And that's what I do. That's how I do it.
Speaker 2: I sit behind, I turn it all the way down.
Speaker 2: I repeat it, repeat it, repeat it, and repeat it
Speaker 2: at nauseum until I'm certain of what my analysis is.
Speaker 2: And then I provide the report.
Speaker 1: And just so y'all know, Susan Constantine and are working
Speaker 1: on a cold case together. And when you make a
Speaker 1: call to her, not only do you get her, you
Speaker 1: get her people. So you feel very very confident when
Speaker 1: they come back to you that you're going to have
Speaker 1: something solid to work with. If you don't mind, could
Speaker 1: you talk a little bit about the Holmes case.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, that was an interesting one back in
Speaker 2: twenty thirteen, I was contacted by I can't give you
Speaker 2: his name because I was still he's my client, But
Speaker 2: I was contacted by someone that was being sued by
Speaker 2: Elizabeth Holmes, and a lot of you may recall her.
Speaker 2: She's the one that developed that blood testing device that
Speaker 2: with a prick of blood you can determine all these
Speaker 2: different types of illnesses, et cetera. And it was actually
Speaker 2: a brilliant idea. And she was an Ivy League student
Speaker 2: and who actually dropped out in her freshman year because
Speaker 2: she was considered being like the up and coming female
Speaker 2: Stephen Jobs. She even dressed in black. She had the deeper,
Speaker 2: lower voice, she was you know, she just had this
Speaker 2: aura about her that people were mesmerized. So she not
Speaker 2: only mesmerized people around her, but also some of the
Speaker 2: most affluent people of shakers and movers and big MiG
Speaker 2: money and pharming, you name it. She was able to
Speaker 2: she was able to convince them about this blood testing device. Well,
Speaker 2: my client was being sued by her saying that he
Speaker 2: stole her copyright on that blood testing device. So he
Speaker 2: gave me a ton of videos of where she was
Speaker 2: speaking in front of all of these different groups and
Speaker 2: conferences and pitching this device and how it worked, et cetera. Well,
Speaker 2: I gave him my analysis and then I kind of
Speaker 2: forgot about it. Years passed by and I get an
Speaker 2: email from it says, hey, did you look at the
Speaker 2: front cover of Forbes magazine? I said no. He says,
Speaker 2: go look at the front cover. It was Elizabeth Holmes
Speaker 2: and about her device was questionable, whether she was a
Speaker 2: fraud or not. Well, I go back and I pull
Speaker 2: the report, and what do I say? She doesn't believe
Speaker 2: in her own blood testing device. She has low confidence
Speaker 2: in her own blood testing device. She doesn't think it's
Speaker 2: going to work. I was like, now, how would I
Speaker 2: have known that? Well, I'm going to tell you what
Speaker 2: I noticed when she was so I pulled up all
Speaker 2: the old videos. I found this one where she was
Speaker 2: speaking in front of a various medical team and she
Speaker 2: was talking about how it worked in all this language,
Speaker 2: of course, medical language I couldn't even begin to repeat.
Speaker 2: But then she takes her hand and she says, we
Speaker 2: have extreme belief that pause hesitate, pausitate hesitate, and then
Speaker 2: she starts talking about our product. Now here's the problem.
Speaker 2: When she said I have extreme belief that when a
Speaker 2: person uses a bolstering word in front of a statement,
Speaker 2: always open up your ears, because why did they have
Speaker 2: to bolster that word? She could get She could have
Speaker 2: easily said we believe that, or we know that, but
Speaker 2: we have extreme belief that. But then what followed it
Speaker 2: was her hand coming up on her neck and rubbing
Speaker 2: her neck of worry and concern. I was like, are
Speaker 2: you kidding me? Busted said she doesn't believe that thing
Speaker 2: even works, and sure enough is exactly what happened.
Speaker 1: Your expertise and the way you deliver information and your
Speaker 1: willingness to share is just astounding to me, and I
Speaker 1: appreciate it so much.
Speaker 2: What's my pleasure? And you know, having the skills will
Speaker 2: help them to be better informed decisions about business transactions,
Speaker 2: people they're involved with, and also to identify dangerous people
Speaker 2: in their lives. So it's a skill that everyone should
Speaker 2: have in their lives. In my new book, I do
Speaker 2: a whole chapter on lies we tell ourselves, lies we
Speaker 2: tell other people, and lined by flatteries.
Speaker 1: One of them.
Speaker 2: It's like saying, you know, you're fabulous, you're great, and
Speaker 2: you talk about these celebrities, you're amazing and behind their back,
Speaker 2: they're stabbing them, they're not sincere. Well, that is actually
Speaker 2: your own personal character flaw, because if you can't if
Speaker 2: you can't deliver truth to a friend without being offensive,
Speaker 2: but you're really doing it in a place that where
Speaker 2: you care and your love, you're loving and you're being
Speaker 2: authentic in a very kind manner, then you're really not
Speaker 2: being truthful. So I look at that. That's a that's
Speaker 2: a huge one for me. So I hope everybody will
Speaker 2: not only just learn the skills that I'm talking about
Speaker 2: how to detect deception, but also do their own self
Speaker 2: analyzation about how they handle things and how they communicate
Speaker 2: to the world. Are they actually being honest with themselves?
Speaker 1: Susan, thank you so much. And I'm going to end
Speaker 1: Zone seven the way that I always do with a quote.
Speaker 1: Men are liars, will lie about lyne if we have to.
Speaker 1: I'm an algebra liar. Figure two good lies makes a
Speaker 1: positive actor, Tim Allen. I'm Cheryl McCollum, and this is
Speaker 1: Zone seven.