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Speaker 1: Ingredients one half pound butter, four ounces unsweetened chocolate, four eggs,

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Speaker 1: two cups sugar, a half cup of flour, one teaspoon

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Speaker 1: vanilla extract pretty simple, simple directions. Pre Heat oven to

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Speaker 1: three and fifty degrees fair and grease and flour a

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Speaker 1: nine and a half inch baking pan. Gently. Melt the

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Speaker 1: butter and chocolate in the top part of a double

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Speaker 1: boiler and set aside to cool to room temperature. Beat

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Speaker 1: the eggs and sugar until thick and lemon colored. Add vanilla. Six,

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Speaker 1: Fold the chocolate mixture into the eggs and sugar and

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Speaker 1: mix thoroughly. Seven Sift the flour and fold gently into

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Speaker 1: the batter, mixing just until blended. Pour into the prepared pan.

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Speaker 1: Bake for twenty five minutes or until the center is

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Speaker 1: just set. When cool, cut into squares makes twenty eight

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Speaker 1: large brownies.

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Speaker 2: In twenty twenty one, when the idea of doing a

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Speaker 2: podcast about food and memory, the first person I thought

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Speaker 2: of interviewing was my friend Wes Anderson. He then described

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Speaker 2: how to roast a pigeon with cutino. Since then we

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Speaker 2: fried just picked zucchini flowers in a tuscan kitchen full

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Speaker 2: of utensils, pots and pans, and pieces of papers with recipes.

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Speaker 2: We perfected the art of making a peach Bellini by

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Speaker 2: peering through the glass of a large picture, deciding if

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Speaker 2: the proportions were correct. Abundance, utensils, transparency, and a singular

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Speaker 2: vision surround us as we meet at the House on

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Speaker 2: Utopia Parkway, Joseph Cornell's studio recreated by West with Jasper

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Speaker 2: Sharp at Cogozi in Paris. Wes Anderson is precious to me.

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Speaker 2: He is my first guest and now my most recent

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Speaker 2: life is good here in this house on Utopia Parkway.

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Speaker 3: Together here we are.

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Speaker 2: So what do you think about an artist who loved

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Speaker 2: to travel but he never traveled.

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Speaker 1: The thing with him was he was obviously had a

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Speaker 1: fantasy of traveling the world. These boxes he made, they

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Speaker 1: have a kind of worldly thing about them. Their grand

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Speaker 1: hotels and they're very international, and it was all from

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Speaker 1: his little place in Queens.

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Speaker 2: I think he just was afraid to travel, the effort

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Speaker 2: of traveling economically.

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Speaker 1: I think he was afraid because I think he had

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Speaker 1: opportunity to travel. He became known and he didn't. Then

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Speaker 1: suddenly set off on his journey around the world. I

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Speaker 1: think he needed to stay home and he was very

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Speaker 1: attached to his brother. His brother's over there. Yes, he

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Speaker 1: did those drawings over there, and I think he looked

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Speaker 1: after him. And I think the first boxes he made

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Speaker 1: were gifts for his brother. And supposedly the boxes were

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Speaker 1: generally made as presents. That was the purpose of the

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Speaker 1: boxes in the first place, so.

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Speaker 3: That he could give something in a box to somebody.

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Speaker 1: Yes, they were just little, they were just gifts.

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Speaker 2: So there's this great story about somebody bringing him a

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Speaker 2: cake and putting it in the oven, and no, they

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Speaker 2: opened it. There's one of his boxes in there that

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Speaker 2: he would put the box in the oven to make

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Speaker 2: it look older.

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Speaker 1: I see he was aging it. Yes, well, you know,

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Speaker 1: not for food. Yeah, well, when we I mean, this

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Speaker 1: space we're in now is a recreation of his studio,

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Speaker 1: a kind of like these collages are his, and many

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Speaker 1: of these boxes are his supplies for making his making

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Speaker 1: his artworks. Some things here we accumulated on our own,

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Speaker 1: simulating what we know he had and what we see

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Speaker 1: in the photographs, and then some there's a guy in

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Speaker 1: Long Island who knew Cornell and he ended up preserving

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Speaker 1: many of the contents of Cornell's house and studio. So

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Speaker 1: all the stuff that isn't artworks, but it's his stuff

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Speaker 1: that he was going to use potential artworks, and he

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Speaker 1: loaned us everything.

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Speaker 2: So there's no official archive of if there's ever an

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Speaker 2: artist who could be say there's an archive.

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Speaker 1: There's a Joseph and Wilber Cornell memorial and they see

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Speaker 1: to his legacy. Some of these are boxes that he

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Speaker 1: prepared for making things that he never used. So you know,

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Speaker 1: you see the way that one is segmented like that

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Speaker 1: that there's one here that's the dove cote that's quite

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Speaker 1: like that. It's one that segmented. There's one that's a

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Speaker 1: pharmacy for the down that's almost like a Damien, and

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Speaker 1: that's also in that kind of vein.

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Speaker 3: So let's start at the beginning.

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Speaker 1: Why did we do this? Yeah, well, Jasper came to

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Speaker 1: me and said, we have this space for a little

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Speaker 1: period of time and I would like you to do

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Speaker 1: something Joseph Cornell. When Jasper suggested this, I did. I

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Speaker 1: had a thought to say, well, why don't we just

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Speaker 1: recreate his studio here and we'll show the real boxes

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Speaker 1: with a background with a sort of theatrical backdrop of

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Speaker 1: his world.

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Speaker 2: Did you know that it would be his studio would

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Speaker 2: be dramatic? I knew that it was.

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Speaker 1: I've seen pictures of this abundant abundance, like you say.

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Speaker 1: I knew the work this way because I grew up

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Speaker 1: in Houston, in Texas, and there we have the Menil

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Speaker 1: Collection Museum, the Deminil family, John and Dominique Demnil. They

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Speaker 1: had boxes and there are boxes on display there always,

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Speaker 1: But in the nineties there was a great big retrospective.

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Speaker 1: I think they probably had fifty or sixty boxes, and

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Speaker 1: I'd seen some of them, but I hadn't really quite

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Speaker 1: how old are you, I guess I was probably twenty

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Speaker 1: seven or something like that. I think it might have

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Speaker 1: been when we were shooting Rushmore. Yeah, And anyway, I

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Speaker 1: really loved them, and that's how we got to know them.

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Speaker 1: So it was really it was from Texas, but it

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Speaker 1: was from from that museum.

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Speaker 2: So when Jasper came to you with the idea of

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Speaker 2: somehow doing us in this space, then what happened?

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Speaker 1: Well, then I said, I said, well, what do you

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Speaker 1: think we could do this thing of just recreating the

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Speaker 1: whole thing? It might cost some money and so on,

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Speaker 1: and Jasper said, we can figure it out. We borrowed

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Speaker 1: all these things. We borrowed boxes. Jasper organized for loans

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Speaker 1: of art. I guess he was already doing that before.

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Speaker 3: From other collectors who had all.

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Speaker 1: Collector these all belonged to different people.

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Speaker 2: So you've then started going through the archive and finding

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Speaker 2: what you could catch.

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Speaker 1: Yes, then we gather stuff, and then we sent people

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Speaker 1: to buy things. And we also have our two French

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Speaker 1: sign painters about them. Well, there's just two guys named

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Speaker 1: Francois and Vanson who worked on the French Dispatch for me,

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Speaker 1: and then they also worked on Asteroid City and Phoenician

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Speaker 1: Scheme and they do anything with graphics, I mean with

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Speaker 1: text really. So in French Dispatch we had lots of

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Speaker 1: French shop windows and signs on walls, and they just

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Speaker 1: painted everything. And they're very talented, and they looked at

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Speaker 1: the photographs and then they you can see there's all

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Speaker 1: these things that are written that are painted in Cornell's hand,

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Speaker 1: and they channel his handwriting or his painted handwriting, and

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Speaker 1: they made all this stuff. They they and it looks

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Speaker 1: just like it was his. As we started to do this,

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Speaker 1: we realized we're creating one big Joseph Cornell box ourselves

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Speaker 1: with this whole thing and stand outside and look into

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Speaker 1: it like it's a box. And all his way of

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Speaker 1: gathering is kind of which we're recreating, which we're sort

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Speaker 1: of simulating. Slash recreating is kind of artful, I mean,

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Speaker 1: as handwriting is like making painting a picture. And we

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Speaker 1: also have somebody else named Catherine, little Katrine, who works

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Speaker 1: on our movies even longer, who is a scenic artist,

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Speaker 1: and that means chill age things. All the stained ceilings

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Speaker 1: and every all the everything you see here, that's that

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Speaker 1: that that old only only looks old because Katherine's out

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Speaker 1: there with a brush and made it old. If something

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Speaker 1: breaks on the set, for instance, and it doesn't look

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Speaker 1: right now, she'll go in with a paint brush and

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Speaker 1: start making it and adapting it and then go.

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Speaker 3: Back to that.

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Speaker 2: So when you're making a movie and you have something

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Speaker 2: a lamp or whatever, you're saying that if it but

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Speaker 2: you mean it breaks.

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Speaker 1: Well, let's say you've got a piece of scenery and

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Speaker 1: some hunk somebody bangs into it with a dolly or something,

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Speaker 1: and there's some hunk out of it, and now you

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Speaker 1: can see that this is not some old stairwell. In fact,

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Speaker 1: there's brand new wood and it looks terrible, and she'll

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Speaker 1: go in and starting it. She'll age it, and she'll

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Speaker 1: make it. She'll bring it back into the into the

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Speaker 1: reality of the movie. And or you say something's making

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Speaker 1: weird reflections in the shot and it's and it's it's

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Speaker 1: sticking out and it's distracting, she'll blend it in. Or

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Speaker 1: she'll do something like trump Lloyd entirely, you know. So

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Speaker 1: that's her departed scenic artists they call it on movies.

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Speaker 1: She came in and she scenicked everything she was. I mean,

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Speaker 1: the first people we said, Catherine and Vansan Francois, those

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Speaker 1: were the people on it that we began with as

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Speaker 1: essential movie people.

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Speaker 3: Can you talk about the well?

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Speaker 1: This one is is actually a real window that goes

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Speaker 1: into the office where Saba has spent many morning and afternoon.

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Speaker 1: And it's too and it was but we kind of

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Speaker 1: tried to make it so it seemed like you were

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Speaker 1: looking into part of Cornell's house. So it has a

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Speaker 1: curtain and it has some stuff that we've put there

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Speaker 1: to make shadows. And the one over there is more

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Speaker 1: like a light box. That one's just a fake and

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Speaker 1: that one was meant to that does have a picture

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Speaker 1: of his garden, so.

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Speaker 3: That we yeah, you have the house because.

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Speaker 1: Xerox of his garden to put there just to kind

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Speaker 1: of suggest it. So yeah, so that's sort of the thrust.

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Speaker 2: And Saba was saying that you sort of saw this

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Speaker 2: as act one x two and an x three. That

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Speaker 2: the windows the analysis that you would live through the window.

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Speaker 2: Can you describe what that means to also pretty the

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Speaker 2: box is so close in the window.

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Speaker 3: Well, tell us about the windows.

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Speaker 1: Well, there's only there's four windows, right a four sections,

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Speaker 1: let's say, because we've got columns, so we knew there

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Speaker 1: there's a series of installations and people are going to

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Speaker 1: move along this like the like there a camera on

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Speaker 1: a Dolly's sliding from side to side. They're going to

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Speaker 1: see one and then they're going to move to the other.

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Speaker 1: And that was built into the space and we put

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Speaker 1: them really close to the window because we wanted to

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Speaker 1: show we wanted to just emphasize here are the actual

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Speaker 1: artworks which are lit. You know, as the sun goes down,

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Speaker 1: the lights come up there. It's natural light in the day,

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Speaker 1: but you can see that lights just came on. Did

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Speaker 1: they Yeah, they just did come on and and yeah

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Speaker 1: those are the those are the artworks, and the rest

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Speaker 1: is sort of an atmosphere for the artwork. But I

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Speaker 1: do think it's kind of is its own little piece

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Speaker 1: of art itself.

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Speaker 2: Did you meet people could talk about the experience of

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Speaker 2: meeting him, Well.

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Speaker 1: No, you know my I mean I always assumed he's shy. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: but I know he had friends like Tony Curtis, Tony Curtis.

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Speaker 3: Willie Wilder. This is all, yes, John Lennon.

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Speaker 1: He must have been able to accummodate these people. So

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Speaker 1: I don't think even though there's an aspect of him

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Speaker 1: that seems like semi recluse, in fact, I think he was.

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Speaker 1: He he had visitors and the hosts of the people.

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Speaker 1: So and there's such charm in his work. There's probably

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Speaker 1: charming his personality in person, I bet, I bet.

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Speaker 2: And also I think that you know, it is people

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Speaker 2: who want to visit an artist, because you might not

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Speaker 2: want to go visit Rachenburg or visit some you know,

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Speaker 2: I don't know decoding, but the idea that these people

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Speaker 2: wanted to go to his life, yes and seek him out.

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Speaker 1: Yes. I think the key is if whether you might

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Speaker 1: not want to visit them if they don't want you vision.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, maybe because yeah, maybe Cornell really did want visitor.

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Speaker 1: You know, maybe he was eager to have people come

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Speaker 1: because he wasn't going to go out.

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Speaker 3: Did you do you want?

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Speaker 2: Another thing we parallel with thought was his his interest

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Speaker 2: and you're interested in children, so that apparently you know

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Speaker 2: that even in this show that it's at a level

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Speaker 2: of lonelness, so a child can see it, yes, at

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Speaker 2: their level with having that's true.

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Speaker 1: I think he had something to say about that, about

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Speaker 1: about maybe about his artwork being shown low. I know

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Speaker 1: with the Manil in Houston, she always hung everything low,

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Speaker 1: not low low like this, but you know, like this

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Speaker 1: much lower than other places would do it. I like

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Speaker 1: art low, Yeah, I do too. I don't really like

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Speaker 1: I like to get right right up to it. But

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Speaker 1: I think there's something quite childlike in his in his work,

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Speaker 1: because you know, a lot of his work is almost

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Speaker 1: like toys, and they're certainly like dioramas that someone would make,

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Speaker 1: and I think probably an interesting I mean, I would say,

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Speaker 1: if you wanted to do the ultimate Joseph Cornell exhibition

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Speaker 1: and have it be all of us, you'd probably find

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Speaker 1: an elementary school built in nineteen thirty and you'd fill

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Speaker 1: it with Joseph Cornell.

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Speaker 2: And what about children with you? What do you feel

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Speaker 2: when you're making a film with your Well.

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Speaker 1: I made some movies that have that have children as characters,

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Speaker 1: some movies that have the childhood setting. And I've also

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Speaker 1: worked with a lot of kids on movies. Rushmore that

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Speaker 1: when the second movie I made, that one is teenagers

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Speaker 1: and there's some younger people. There's one of the main

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Speaker 1: characters is eleven. His name, the actor was called Mason

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Speaker 1: Gamble and I and you know, the thing I remember

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Speaker 1: with him was he's somebody who was He was eleven,

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Speaker 1: but he'd been acting since he was sick, so something.

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Speaker 1: He'd played Dennis the Menace in a big movie. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and he and I was just it was kind of

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Speaker 1: an incredible thing to watch this person who for whom

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Speaker 1: acting It was like you know when somebody starts playing

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Speaker 1: the violin when they're four years old or something. It

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Speaker 1: was just very natural to him. It happened that he

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Speaker 1: had been doing this already so long because he was

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Speaker 1: picked because somebody said this one can do it. But

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Speaker 1: he had so much skill and he had a real

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Speaker 1: kind of aura about him. But if you asked him

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Speaker 1: to do something, he would just say okay, and then

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Speaker 1: you would see it done really well. You know, he

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Speaker 1: would take it and he'd be able to turn it

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Speaker 1: into whatever it was always and he would be able

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Speaker 1: to adjust one way or another. And I've seen that

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Speaker 1: over the years, and a lot of really famous grown

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Speaker 1: up actors old people now are their child actors. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I mean a lot of them. It helped. I mean,

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Speaker 1: it's an advantage. And she was a Venetians game. She

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Speaker 1: played an angel. She was very good, and she was

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Speaker 1: very conscientious. She had questions. She wanted to get it right.

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Speaker 1: She was not nervous, but very but she was. She

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Speaker 1: just put a lot of energy and focus into it

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Speaker 1: and she didn't make mistakes. She wanted to get it right.

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Speaker 2: Doing a movie and doing a show, is it well,

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Speaker 2: doing a meal and doing a cookbook, what's the what's the.

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Speaker 1: In this case, these are not my work. Yeah, this

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Speaker 1: is this installation. We designed it. But that's more like

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Speaker 1: being hired for a job to do it. Even though

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Speaker 1: I wasn't exactly hired. It was a it was a

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Speaker 1: wish to serve another artist. It's not like inventing something

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Speaker 1: like writing a script. It's more about its design work,

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Speaker 1: I think, and also thinking about which a movie is too.

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Speaker 1: But how is how are we going to show these

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Speaker 1: in a way that will make them most accessible and

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Speaker 1: clear and they make them the most entertaining just to

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Speaker 1: walk through or I don't know, something like that.

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Speaker 2: You know there is I know that there's some things

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Speaker 2: that you you know, account that he did, but and

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Speaker 2: some that you bought and some that you borrored. But

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Speaker 2: there is an authenticity to this that I think is

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Speaker 2: very touching. You know that you can feel I know

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Speaker 2: your sign painters may have done that, but walking through

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Speaker 2: here there's a kind of feeling, I say, kind of rigor.

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Speaker 2: And I think it must be so interesting to just

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Speaker 2: not be able to come in and to be these

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Speaker 2: people walking past.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, to see it.

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Speaker 1: No, and it's it's open, it's you know, it's twenty

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Speaker 1: four hours a day. Yeah, it never closes. We don't

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Speaker 1: pull down the curtain. December sixteen, the curtains went up

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Speaker 1: and they've stayed up ever since until sometime in March

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Speaker 1: when they got to get closed. Now there's going to

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Speaker 1: be a closing night party. Good, so at the end

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Speaker 1: of it. We'll close it. I guess we'll close the

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Speaker 1: blinds and that'll be it. But maybe it'll go somewhere else.

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Speaker 2: Art is a shopfront is so cool and when you

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Speaker 2: go to city, I don't know, I just love walking

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Speaker 2: around and looking in the windows, you know, and it

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Speaker 2: is unfortunately maybe they're changing that now. When I was

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Speaker 2: in New York, you know the windows at burg Door,

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Speaker 2: so that you remember those windows at Parney's. I can

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Speaker 2: remember windows, you know what they had. And so to

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Speaker 2: see art as a shop windows pretty democratic.

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Speaker 1: Yeah that's good.

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Speaker 2: It's a good viewing environment.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's also a very good it's also when you

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Speaker 1: talk about shop windows. This is a shop window right

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Speaker 1: below the Place Faron Dome, underneath a colinide and it's

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Speaker 1: a pretty good way to It's a good shop window. Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Successful.

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Speaker 2: So and what are you having for dinner tonight? I'm

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Speaker 2: coming over to your place.

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Speaker 1: Oh you are okay?

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Speaker 3: Good to come and have a drink.

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Speaker 1: Okay, good, we have a Japanese dinner.

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Speaker 3: Okay, thank you, thank you. It's great. It was good.

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Speaker 2: Him