Speaker 1: BBC Sudas. Hey, Hi'm Maggie. Just a quick heads up
Speaker 1: before we start. The series does contain some descriptions of
Speaker 1: violence and deals with adult themes. Jim and Sandy are
Speaker 1: at their favorite restaurant, Los Cucos, their most love dishes
Speaker 1: spread across the table. There's a fish cancun for Sandy
Speaker 1: and agorace for Jim, which is something like a thick
Speaker 1: corn tortilla topped with beans, meat and salsa. Jim's had
Speaker 1: his hair freshly cut for the occasion, and the pictures
Speaker 1: I've seen of him, he looks kind of like your
Speaker 1: classic dad. He's got a buttoned down, collared shirt tucked
Speaker 1: into khakis, his BlackBerry clip to his belt. Jim's petite
Speaker 1: at only five seven, with a slim frame and wire glasses.
Speaker 1: Sandy's just a bit shorter, with shoulder length blonde hair
Speaker 1: and tight, square framed glasses. That night, she's of vision
Speaker 1: and brown with brown slacks, sweater and boots. I can
Speaker 1: imagine her laughing as she leans in her hand cupped
Speaker 1: around a pina colada. It's December twenty second, twenty twelve,
Speaker 1: and Jim and Sandy are celebrating their thirty second wedding anniversary,
Speaker 1: an amazing achievement for any relationship. They finish their meal,
Speaker 1: pay the bill, and head out into the cool Texas night,
Speaker 1: stopping at CBS to pick up some mixers for drinks,
Speaker 1: sprite and coke. They make their way back home, leaving
Speaker 1: the suburban sprawl of shopping centers and chain restaurants to
Speaker 1: the tree lined street of their cult de sac home
Speaker 1: and pull into their garage. Sandy enters first, while Jim
Speaker 1: follows behind, his hands full with the leftovers from dinner
Speaker 1: and the drinks they purchased at CBS. Sandy heads to
Speaker 1: the master bedroom and into the adjoining bathroom. She begins
Speaker 1: filling up the corner jacuzzi definitely big enough for two.
Speaker 1: You see where this is going. Grab some rum and vodka,
Speaker 1: a bowl of strawberries, and a tub of whipped cream.
Speaker 1: Jim follows behind. They and dress and get into the
Speaker 1: chacuzi have sex talk. They somehow spend two hours in
Speaker 1: the tub, but at some point the couple's four dogs
Speaker 1: begin barking. A neighbor has complained before, and both Jim
Speaker 1: and Sandy are conscious to not make it a big issue.
Speaker 1: Jim jumps out of the tub, wraps a towel around
Speaker 1: his waist and brings the dogs in. Sandy stays in
Speaker 1: a little bit longer, lingering in the now lukewarm water,
Speaker 1: but when Jim doesn't come back, she gets out the
Speaker 1: jacuzzi jets. Still worrying. She puts on some underwear, a
Speaker 1: red nightgown, black robe, and fluffy socks, then sits on
Speaker 1: an ornate brown satin chair with curling white vines and
Speaker 1: begins lotioning her legs. But after that, according to Sandy,
Speaker 1: the world goes black. Around sixteen hours later, on December
Speaker 1: twenty third, Sandy and Jim's family are gathered outside their house,
Speaker 1: having just discovered his dead body and found Sandy tied
Speaker 1: up and shut in a closet. They had come over
Speaker 1: for dinner, but instead they now find themselves being interviewed
Speaker 1: by the police, who were trying to piece together what's happened.
Speaker 2: Where was your aunt located at?
Speaker 3: I saw her in the restaurroom.
Speaker 2: Which restaurant the.
Speaker 3: Master bedroom, there's a restaurroom in there. How much of
Speaker 3: her did you see? Her face? She looked very pale,
Speaker 3: and she was crying a lot, and it looked like
Speaker 3: she was going to pass out when she saw my uncle.
Speaker 3: I went to a Garrea water.
Speaker 4: And are you close with Jamie? Yeah, here's your ancle
Speaker 4: And what do you know about his wife, Sandra Sandy?
Speaker 3: Honestly, no, I talked more to my uncle.
Speaker 2: What kind of person is she that you know of.
Speaker 3: She's a nice person.
Speaker 5: She's always outgoing, always eating out with my mom and.
Speaker 3: My uncle's my other uncle's ex wife.
Speaker 2: Let me ask you this.
Speaker 4: You were sitting in that patrol car up there when
Speaker 4: we brought her out there and photographed her, and she's
Speaker 4: on a cane.
Speaker 2: You ever see her walk with a came before.
Speaker 3: I've never seen her on a came before.
Speaker 2: Now I hadn't. The last time you saw her, she walked.
Speaker 3: Okay, Yes, she was fine. She came to my house December.
Speaker 3: I believe it was December eighth or December ninth. It
Speaker 3: was on a Sunday.
Speaker 4: We're trying to figure out what happened. Any problems between
Speaker 4: the two of them lately that you know of.
Speaker 3: No, they always look like a happy couple of them
Speaker 3: to me.
Speaker 1: They ask similar questions to the rest of the family.
Speaker 4: You know, have you heard your other family members that
Speaker 4: are related to them?
Speaker 2: Have you heard them talk about any problems between them. No, no,
Speaker 2: no problem at all. Everything was good, everything else. Did
Speaker 2: you understand something's happened here? Yeah, I do understand.
Speaker 4: And that's a total shock to you. It's a complete
Speaker 4: sort You don't suspect.
Speaker 2: Anything that happening, or you don't have any ideas of
Speaker 2: your own A.
Speaker 4: No, honey, I don't even know if I don't know
Speaker 4: if somebody broke in the house, or you know, I
Speaker 4: have no clue.
Speaker 2: I don't know.
Speaker 3: Okay.
Speaker 1: I'm Maggie Robinson, cats And from BBC Studios and iHeart Podcasts.
Speaker 1: This is Hands Tied, Episode two, the interview. It's now
Speaker 1: nine two pm and Sandy Malgar finds herself in a
Speaker 1: small white room in Harris County Police Station, Texas. She's
Speaker 1: hunched over a purple chair with her head buried in
Speaker 1: her hands, her long blonde hair covering her face. She's
Speaker 1: still wearing the thin black robe, those fluffy socks, no shoes,
Speaker 1: but she's managed to change into a pair of jeans.
Speaker 1: Sandy has declined going to the hospital and getting checked out,
Speaker 1: but agrees to an interview with the police. As the
Speaker 1: door creaks open, Sandy sits up, lifting her face and
Speaker 1: tucking her hair behind her ears. The dark circles around
Speaker 1: her eyes stand out against her waxy, pale skin. A
Speaker 1: wooden cane is hooked over the arm of her chair.
Speaker 1: Two stocky detectives enter, wearing almost matching outfits, dark kaki chinos,
Speaker 1: with one in a white shirt the other in a
Speaker 1: soft baby blue. One of the cops places two small
Speaker 1: cups on the square table next to Sandy. The room
Speaker 1: is cramped, so they have to do an awkward side
Speaker 1: step as they take their seats on either side of her.
Speaker 6: Take a picture of titles.
Speaker 1: That's Sandy. Her voice soft and weak. She points to
Speaker 1: her feet, telling the detectives that they didn't take a
Speaker 1: picture of her ankles. They were tied, as well as
Speaker 1: her hands. The detectives assure her that they'll get to
Speaker 1: that in a second.
Speaker 7: I need to do a statement from you, okay, that's
Speaker 7: why we're here, and I will record in an old
Speaker 7: statement and give some questions from your answer me.
Speaker 1: That's Detective Ruben Shawn Carousel, but everyone calls him Sean.
Speaker 1: He's leading the murder investigation.
Speaker 2: Case.
Speaker 7: Number one two one seven six two sixty nine is Sunday,
Speaker 7: December twenty third, twenty twelve. This is Sean Caronel Harris
Speaker 7: kind of shafs off with homicide sixty Henry forty two.
Speaker 1: He's bald, middle aged, A bit what I expect when
Speaker 1: I hear both the words Texas and cop I can
Speaker 1: imagine he'd be comfortable grilling both meats and witnesses also
Speaker 1: with me.
Speaker 8: It's Sargeant, do say.
Speaker 1: Sergeant James Toussay is seated directly on Sandy's right. He's
Speaker 1: also in his middle age, with a similar texas a Saqua.
Speaker 8: Stargew saying, to identify yourself.
Speaker 9: I'm sixty Henry thirty nine.
Speaker 1: Okay, he's lucky to even be in the room. Just
Speaker 1: two years ago, he was gored by a bull named
Speaker 1: Peanut and survived, leaving him with scars and the ultimate
Speaker 1: bar story. The two detectives go way back their childhood friends,
Speaker 1: and both have come straight from the crime scene to
Speaker 1: the Harris County Sheriff's office.
Speaker 8: Okay, ma'am, can you identify yourself for me?
Speaker 1: As the only survivor and a potential witness to her
Speaker 1: husband's murder, the detectives need as much detail as they
Speaker 1: can get from Sandy, and as quickly as possible.
Speaker 10: We'll start from the morning.
Speaker 9: When you woke up today?
Speaker 6: Where are you at?
Speaker 1: Yes, in my closet, Sandy's hard to hear, she says,
Speaker 1: in my closet this morning?
Speaker 8: Yes, Okay, what about yesterday?
Speaker 9: Let's start yesterday?
Speaker 6: Yesterday Saturday.
Speaker 7: Uh.
Speaker 6: We went up to.
Speaker 8: Eat at.
Speaker 6: Mexican restaurant. I think it was the products the roles were.
Speaker 8: Yeah, what time was that?
Speaker 4: I was?
Speaker 6: Who was whucos? Whokos? Uh? I'm listening about eight. I mean,
Speaker 6: I'm just guessing. I don't know.
Speaker 4: M h.
Speaker 1: Sandy sounds a little sketchy. She's slow to speak, vague
Speaker 1: and unsure of details. But I can imagine she must
Speaker 1: be exhausted and traumatized. Maybe no wonder she can't remember
Speaker 1: certain things.
Speaker 9: While what time did you get home?
Speaker 6: Probably midnight? Okay, I'm just guessing that I don't know.
Speaker 9: And when you got home? What did y'all do?
Speaker 6: We made some drinks, We gotten a ninjakuti.
Speaker 1: Where they had sex and talked.
Speaker 9: Man, what were y'all talking about?
Speaker 6: My daughter?
Speaker 1: That's their daughter, Liz his job.
Speaker 11: Oh, here's gonna be turned.
Speaker 6: And couldn't come stop.
Speaker 1: Her hand lightly rests on her face for a second,
Speaker 1: as her voice catches, particularly the memory almost too much
Speaker 1: to bear. Jim was going to retire next year, they
Speaker 1: were going to travel. I go back and forward over
Speaker 1: the interview, trying to figure out what the cops are
Speaker 1: thinking and land on the moment. They zero in on
Speaker 1: the events leading up to Jim's murderfly focusing on the
Speaker 1: moment Jim got out of the chacuzzie to check on
Speaker 1: their four barking dogs.
Speaker 4: So the time when he got out to go check
Speaker 4: on the dogs, to go move the dog?
Speaker 6: What time was that, when I say one or two
Speaker 6: in the morning.
Speaker 4: And when he did that, what kind of noises did
Speaker 4: you hear?
Speaker 6: And I think the jacuzzie was still running even when
Speaker 6: I got out. The jacuzzie was running.
Speaker 4: Racze was making noise is pretty loud, and you couldn't hear.
Speaker 9: Anything over that.
Speaker 6: I didn't hear anything, hear anybody scream no.
Speaker 9: But you could hear the dogs bark, yeah, because they were.
Speaker 6: Right outside our window.
Speaker 1: Sandy says Jim was taking a while with the dogs,
Speaker 1: so she got out of the chacuzzie and went to
Speaker 1: her closet to get dressed.
Speaker 12: Several hours later, I woke up and realized I was
Speaker 12: tied up and tried to flip over, and then I
Speaker 12: kind of got stuck where I was for the rest
Speaker 12: of the time.
Speaker 6: That's all I remember. I mean, I would tell you
Speaker 6: more if I remember.
Speaker 4: Why, I just don't.
Speaker 9: Do you have pain?
Speaker 6: Do I have pain? If I have pain in my head?
Speaker 1: Yeah, She touches the left side of her head, like,
Speaker 1: what like I got hit.
Speaker 6: On the head. I don't know if I fell or
Speaker 6: was pushed or what, but just like all alongside this side.
Speaker 12: And then I remember oke up and I thought I
Speaker 12: had had seizure because my muscles hurt in my head
Speaker 12: was just hurting or bad and usually.
Speaker 6: That you have been having trouble with controlling my seizure.
Speaker 1: So Sandy has a laundry list of health issues, something
Speaker 1: she says she's been struggling with even more in recent months.
Speaker 1: Alongside the seizures, Sandy has had both her hips replaced,
Speaker 1: and she also suffers from lupus, which, for whatever reason,
Speaker 1: she doesn't disclose to the cops. If you don't know,
Speaker 1: lupas is a really serious autoimmune disease that causes extreme
Speaker 1: fatigue and joint and muscle pain. Another possible reason why
Speaker 1: She's foggy, not making sense, can't remember details. She's not well,
Speaker 1: but the cops aren't sure.
Speaker 6: I hurt all over and my head hurts.
Speaker 9: How often do you have seizures like that?
Speaker 6: I've been getting a more, lady, I'm not able to
Speaker 6: drive anymore.
Speaker 9: How frequent.
Speaker 6: This once a month? Maybe the auras? I get them
Speaker 6: all the time?
Speaker 9: Do you take medication for that?
Speaker 12: Okay?
Speaker 9: And what was the last time he had one of
Speaker 9: those before today?
Speaker 6: About them?
Speaker 8: Togo at home?
Speaker 9: And what happens when you have those seizures? What's the symptoms? Well,
Speaker 9: how do you feel when you have those?
Speaker 8: Oh?
Speaker 12: I have rash byds that tell me that I'm going
Speaker 12: to have one, and it's like I'm very forgetful, more
Speaker 12: than usual.
Speaker 9: Did you have one of those today?
Speaker 2: Yeah?
Speaker 6: I've been having it one week actually all month?
Speaker 9: So have you been forgetting things all month?
Speaker 8: Mm?
Speaker 6: Hmm? And right after sometimes I can't even tell you
Speaker 6: my name?
Speaker 9: Okay, And let me ask you this, And I asked
Speaker 9: you before. You didn't answer my question.
Speaker 10: Why are we here?
Speaker 9: Do you know what has happened today?
Speaker 8: My husband was murdered how.
Speaker 6: I don't know. I don't think he was shot.
Speaker 9: What do you under what do you understand has happened? Yeah?
Speaker 9: Told you that he was part I saw him, he did.
Speaker 12: Yes, When in tied me, I heard hysterical screaming and
Speaker 12: I ran over there and I.
Speaker 6: Checked this post to see if there's anything we could do.
Speaker 9: Yeah, I saw him. Okay, I didn't know that.
Speaker 6: I saw him.
Speaker 1: As Sandy's voice breaks, she puts one hand across her forehead,
Speaker 1: pushing up her blonde Bang's eyes cast downwards.
Speaker 9: And he touched him, touched his wrist.
Speaker 6: I guess she isn't it?
Speaker 3: Okay?
Speaker 12: It's freezing cold, and I shouldn't have touched him, and
Speaker 12: I covered him.
Speaker 6: And I should have done that.
Speaker 2: What'd you go wrong with?
Speaker 1: You know?
Speaker 6: Something that was laying next to.
Speaker 11: The jacket, Because Jack, he was very good.
Speaker 6: It's really good care of me.
Speaker 1: Sandy's sobbing, head down on her knees, her hair falling forward.
Speaker 10: Until I got it.
Speaker 1: I've got to tell my daughter, she says between her.
Speaker 5: Sobs, Liz thousands of miles away, having no idea what
Speaker 5: her mom is going through in this moment, Sandra.
Speaker 7: Part of our job is we work hundreds and hundreds
Speaker 7: of mrder Okay, and sometimes we were cold bloody killers.
Speaker 7: They just don't want to street that would just kill
Speaker 7: somebody for nothing.
Speaker 8: Okay.
Speaker 7: Then sometimes were murders that they're an argument and something happens. Okay,
Speaker 7: there's two different types of people. Do understand, because if
Speaker 7: you're arguing with somebody and you lose it in your
Speaker 7: temper and the arguments what happened.
Speaker 9: That's not what happened.
Speaker 12: And I think I'm gonna stop talking because I think
Speaker 12: I'm gonna need a lawyer because I know how this works.
Speaker 9: Let me ask you something. It's all procedure for us
Speaker 9: to talk to you.
Speaker 4: Okay, we want to find out the answer to this.
Speaker 9: As bad as you do. Okay, we do, we really do.
Speaker 4: And we're not trying to cause you trouble, will cause
Speaker 4: you pain, but we have a procedure.
Speaker 9: Are you familiar with a polygraph exam?
Speaker 1: M hmm, a lie detector test?
Speaker 9: You should be willing to take a polygraphic examp?
Speaker 2: He's probably her.
Speaker 1: No, not now, she says.
Speaker 6: I'm just the nervous wreck right now.
Speaker 1: It's just after midnight now, and Sandy Melgar walks back
Speaker 1: into the cramped interview room, leaning heavily on a cane.
Speaker 1: She sits down and wrests the wooden stick against her chair.
Speaker 1: Sergeant Dussea comes in and takes the seat nearest her.
Speaker 9: How are you feeling, I've trying to drown the air down.
Speaker 9: This building keeps us constant of them. Sure you know.
Speaker 4: I'll be up rue honest with you, There's some things
Speaker 4: don't add up in your story and what you're telling me.
Speaker 9: Okay, maybe you could help me understand it.
Speaker 4: Now. You said you've been married thirty two years and
Speaker 4: you were supposed to celebrate that on.
Speaker 1: The twelfth December twelfth is their actual anniversary, but they
Speaker 1: were celebrating on the twenty second.
Speaker 9: Well, what reason was it that you did?
Speaker 6: I was it feeling?
Speaker 12: Well?
Speaker 10: Okay, I noticed you walked with a cane? Why is that?
Speaker 6: I've had my hips replaced and I have a lot
Speaker 6: of joint pain.
Speaker 4: How long ago did you have the hips replaced?
Speaker 6: My left one.
Speaker 12: About ten years ago or eleven, and then the right
Speaker 12: one about five years after that.
Speaker 10: You've been walking with a cane ever since that? It's
Speaker 10: just when'd you start?
Speaker 3: It's on and off.
Speaker 13: When it's colds, my joints hurt more, but late it's
Speaker 13: been more often because so how.
Speaker 10: Long you think you've been walking to the cane out?
Speaker 6: A couple of weeks, but some when the days are warmer,
Speaker 6: they don't really use it.
Speaker 1: From the detective's point of view, Sandy's poor health doesn't
Speaker 1: rule her out as a suspect. Quite the opposite. Maybe
Speaker 1: she's playing it up using a cane she doesn't need
Speaker 1: to elicit sympathy.
Speaker 4: You know, something I want you to understand is that
Speaker 4: we investigate something like this, Sandra.
Speaker 10: I want you to understand that.
Speaker 9: We go to all extremes. You know, we don't quit.
Speaker 9: You're going to see a lot of me, You're going
Speaker 9: to see a lot of my partner.
Speaker 11: You are.
Speaker 14: We're going to find out everything about you. We're going
Speaker 14: to find out everything about your husband. We're going to
Speaker 14: talk to everybody in your neighborhood. We're going to talk
Speaker 14: to everybody that you're related to. We're going to learn everything.
Speaker 6: Because it's not me.
Speaker 4: It's just so important that you be honest with us.
Speaker 4: You know, I told you it's protocol that we start close.
Speaker 15: To that victim that's you, Okay, And you know we
Speaker 15: didn't just walk into this ball game yesterday, and we
Speaker 15: can tell a whole lot of stuff.
Speaker 9: By the way, that when we start.
Speaker 4: With people, the way they react, the way they act,
Speaker 4: you need to understand that may I always show, may
Speaker 4: not always let that be be known to you.
Speaker 9: But we're no fools. You need to understand that too, okay.
Speaker 4: And we've been doing this long enough where there's things
Speaker 4: we recognize.
Speaker 9: You got to understand that too, Okay.
Speaker 10: We talk to people all the time. I never said
Speaker 10: you did. I did ask you to take a polygraph test?
Speaker 6: Yes, I did, and not shaking and freezing and.
Speaker 4: What's your what's your explanation though, what's your excuse for
Speaker 4: not taking one?
Speaker 9: It's not holding water, Sandra. I'm just gonna be honest
Speaker 9: with you. It's not.
Speaker 6: I just don't want to take it. And then it's
Speaker 6: used against me.
Speaker 1: Now the gloves are off.
Speaker 10: Are you covering something else? Why would you take a polygraph?
Speaker 6: Because I'm so stress right now I can't even think straight.
Speaker 9: It's not a good reason.
Speaker 13: Well, I just don't want to use against me, that's
Speaker 13: all I'll take it, But not just use against you
Speaker 13: because I'm stressed, and I mean I just.
Speaker 10: Beyond beyond that.
Speaker 8: Does your husband ever hit you?
Speaker 4: No?
Speaker 15: No, piscopal No, never did your husband tell you something
Speaker 15: that that made you black out.
Speaker 10: No, doesn't work that way.
Speaker 7: As your would your husband have a girlfriend signer, they'd
Speaker 7: be a jealous boyfriend, would coat.
Speaker 8: Yeah, as your husband of cosey, he was going to
Speaker 8: leave you.
Speaker 6: Yeah, they were taking plans. We were making plans. Who
Speaker 6: would leave me?
Speaker 8: Do you think he's ever caught one of his family
Speaker 8: members that he was going to leave you?
Speaker 1: To Sandy, that couldn't be further from the truth. They
Speaker 1: were planning to go traveling together. They were sitting in
Speaker 1: the jacuzzie talking about their plans for retirement, the trips
Speaker 1: they were going to take.
Speaker 2: You know what I saw there.
Speaker 4: When I saw your husband's body, that's a pretty violent attack. Okay,
Speaker 4: And if he encountered something that.
Speaker 9: Would do what we see there, you're going to hear it.
Speaker 10: You're going to hear something.
Speaker 1: And Sandy reiterates that she left the jets running when
Speaker 1: she went to get dressed. Well, Jim brought in the dogs.
Speaker 1: The jets, according to Sandy, are why she couldn't hear
Speaker 1: Jim's screen.
Speaker 4: I don't care if you've got a tank cranked up
Speaker 4: in that bathroom with you, you're gonna hear something. When
Speaker 4: somebody encounters somebody that's stabashed, somebody that violently, that many
Speaker 4: times you're gonna hear that.
Speaker 6: You didn't hear anything. I wish I had heard something.
Speaker 9: I didn't.
Speaker 2: See that.
Speaker 4: What we're seeing there, the physical evidence that's there, and
Speaker 4: what you're telling us.
Speaker 9: Just not adding up. Sandra.
Speaker 4: I'm not wanting to call you a liar, but what
Speaker 4: I'm saying to hear something. You're the only person that
Speaker 4: was in that house.
Speaker 2: You know we're here, we're going to try to.
Speaker 4: Get to the bottom of this, but you're the only
Speaker 4: one that was in that house. Well, it is ironic
Speaker 4: that you could you black out exact time when he's
Speaker 4: getting down and bludgeon I don't have an answer for
Speaker 4: multiple times like that, dying screaming for help.
Speaker 10: Oh my gosh, just I don't know. I don't understand that.
Speaker 10: That's not right.
Speaker 8: I mean, it's a lot of blood that he lost.
Speaker 9: Could you hear him, No, I couldn't hear him.
Speaker 8: Could you hear me all for help?
Speaker 6: No?
Speaker 8: Could you hear screaming? I didn't hear it.
Speaker 2: I mean he was in pain.
Speaker 9: We know that.
Speaker 8: He suffered a lot.
Speaker 9: I need you to help me.
Speaker 10: I need you to help me.
Speaker 8: I need you to help me on this.
Speaker 1: It's as though Detective Carousel is channeling Jim in his
Speaker 1: final moments.
Speaker 8: Can you help me?
Speaker 2: I need you to help me.
Speaker 8: Andrew, can you help me?
Speaker 6: I didn't hear anything.
Speaker 8: Can you help me? I need you to help me.
Speaker 6: Did you hear anything?
Speaker 2: I need help?
Speaker 8: Please help me?
Speaker 7: Screaming after screaming, after screaming, even pain, I need help.
Speaker 1: The bizarre incantation goes on and on.
Speaker 8: Help me, help me, help me. Cousin's a nice guy.
Speaker 8: He went through a lot of pain.
Speaker 1: Help me until Sandy's finally had enough.
Speaker 6: I didn't hear anything already. I need help.
Speaker 8: I need help.
Speaker 2: Help me.
Speaker 6: That's it, that's it.
Speaker 3: I need a lawyer.
Speaker 6: I'm not talking anymore because you guys are just trying
Speaker 6: to torture me.
Speaker 7: Here.
Speaker 9: I'm not torturing you.
Speaker 8: I'm asking for help.
Speaker 1: But they're not done yet.
Speaker 6: She loved your husband, yes, I love my husband.
Speaker 16: Yes, she wants to finally kill him. Of course, I
Speaker 16: don't think you did. Did you stage that at your house?
Speaker 4: Now?
Speaker 6: Stage it?
Speaker 9: Yeah?
Speaker 10: Did you plan this?
Speaker 4: No? No?
Speaker 8: I did not.
Speaker 9: Would you tell me if you did?
Speaker 6: I wouln't even know where to start to stage it,
Speaker 6: and how am I going to tie myself up like that?
Speaker 6: And I ain't gonna be able to get out of it.
Speaker 6: I mean, I really was trying to get out of it.
Speaker 8: Did you kill your husband?
Speaker 16: No?
Speaker 9: I didn't.
Speaker 1: It's one fourteen am on Christmas Eve, nine hours since
Speaker 1: Sandy was found by her family, since they all learned
Speaker 1: that Jim had been murdered. The interview's over and she's exhausted.
Speaker 1: She's bewildered. To Sandy, she can't fathom how this nightmare
Speaker 1: has happened. Her husband's dead and somehow she's being accused
Speaker 1: for his murder.
Speaker 3: I'm good an emergency.
Speaker 1: I can stay calm.
Speaker 3: I know what I need to do.
Speaker 1: I can assess the situation. You've been listening to Hands Tied,
Speaker 1: a new eight part true crime series from BBC Studios
Speaker 1: and iHeart Podcasts. New episodes will be released weekly, so
Speaker 1: subscribe or follow on the iHeartRadio app or wherever you
Speaker 1: get your podcasts so you don't miss out. If you
Speaker 1: like the show, please help us by spreading the word
Speaker 1: or giving us a five star review. I'm Maggie Robinson
Speaker 1: Katz and the producer is Maggie Latham. Sound design in
Speaker 1: mix is by Tom Brignall. Our script consultant is Emma
Speaker 1: Weatherall production support is from Dan Martini, Elena Boutang and
Speaker 1: Mabel Finnegan Wright, and our production executive is Laura Jordan Raul.
Speaker 1: The series was developed by Anya Saunders and Emma Shaw
Speaker 1: at iHeart. The managing Executive producer is Christina Everett, and
Speaker 1: for BBC Studios, the executive producer is Joe Kent,