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Speaker 1: BBC Sudas. Hey, Hi'm Maggie. Just a quick heads up

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Speaker 1: before we start. The series does contain some descriptions of

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Speaker 1: violence and deals with adult themes. Jim and Sandy are

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Speaker 1: at their favorite restaurant, Los Cucos, their most love dishes

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Speaker 1: spread across the table. There's a fish cancun for Sandy

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Speaker 1: and agorace for Jim, which is something like a thick

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Speaker 1: corn tortilla topped with beans, meat and salsa. Jim's had

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Speaker 1: his hair freshly cut for the occasion, and the pictures

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Speaker 1: I've seen of him, he looks kind of like your

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Speaker 1: classic dad. He's got a buttoned down, collared shirt tucked

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Speaker 1: into khakis, his BlackBerry clip to his belt. Jim's petite

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Speaker 1: at only five seven, with a slim frame and wire glasses.

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Speaker 1: Sandy's just a bit shorter, with shoulder length blonde hair

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Speaker 1: and tight, square framed glasses. That night, she's of vision

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Speaker 1: and brown with brown slacks, sweater and boots. I can

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Speaker 1: imagine her laughing as she leans in her hand cupped

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Speaker 1: around a pina colada. It's December twenty second, twenty twelve,

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Speaker 1: and Jim and Sandy are celebrating their thirty second wedding anniversary,

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Speaker 1: an amazing achievement for any relationship. They finish their meal,

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Speaker 1: pay the bill, and head out into the cool Texas night,

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Speaker 1: stopping at CBS to pick up some mixers for drinks,

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Speaker 1: sprite and coke. They make their way back home, leaving

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Speaker 1: the suburban sprawl of shopping centers and chain restaurants to

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Speaker 1: the tree lined street of their cult de sac home

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Speaker 1: and pull into their garage. Sandy enters first, while Jim

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Speaker 1: follows behind, his hands full with the leftovers from dinner

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Speaker 1: and the drinks they purchased at CBS. Sandy heads to

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Speaker 1: the master bedroom and into the adjoining bathroom. She begins

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Speaker 1: filling up the corner jacuzzi definitely big enough for two.

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Speaker 1: You see where this is going. Grab some rum and vodka,

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Speaker 1: a bowl of strawberries, and a tub of whipped cream.

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Speaker 1: Jim follows behind. They and dress and get into the

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Speaker 1: chacuzi have sex talk. They somehow spend two hours in

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Speaker 1: the tub, but at some point the couple's four dogs

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Speaker 1: begin barking. A neighbor has complained before, and both Jim

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Speaker 1: and Sandy are conscious to not make it a big issue.

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Speaker 1: Jim jumps out of the tub, wraps a towel around

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Speaker 1: his waist and brings the dogs in. Sandy stays in

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Speaker 1: a little bit longer, lingering in the now lukewarm water,

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Speaker 1: but when Jim doesn't come back, she gets out the

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Speaker 1: jacuzzi jets. Still worrying. She puts on some underwear, a

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Speaker 1: red nightgown, black robe, and fluffy socks, then sits on

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Speaker 1: an ornate brown satin chair with curling white vines and

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Speaker 1: begins lotioning her legs. But after that, according to Sandy,

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Speaker 1: the world goes black. Around sixteen hours later, on December

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Speaker 1: twenty third, Sandy and Jim's family are gathered outside their house,

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Speaker 1: having just discovered his dead body and found Sandy tied

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Speaker 1: up and shut in a closet. They had come over

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Speaker 1: for dinner, but instead they now find themselves being interviewed

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Speaker 1: by the police, who were trying to piece together what's happened.

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Speaker 2: Where was your aunt located at?

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Speaker 3: I saw her in the restaurroom.

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Speaker 2: Which restaurant the.

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Speaker 3: Master bedroom, there's a restaurroom in there. How much of

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Speaker 3: her did you see? Her face? She looked very pale,

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Speaker 3: and she was crying a lot, and it looked like

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Speaker 3: she was going to pass out when she saw my uncle.

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Speaker 3: I went to a Garrea water.

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Speaker 4: And are you close with Jamie? Yeah, here's your ancle

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Speaker 4: And what do you know about his wife, Sandra Sandy?

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Speaker 3: Honestly, no, I talked more to my uncle.

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Speaker 2: What kind of person is she that you know of.

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Speaker 3: She's a nice person.

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Speaker 5: She's always outgoing, always eating out with my mom and.

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Speaker 3: My uncle's my other uncle's ex wife.

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Speaker 2: Let me ask you this.

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Speaker 4: You were sitting in that patrol car up there when

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Speaker 4: we brought her out there and photographed her, and she's

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Speaker 4: on a cane.

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Speaker 2: You ever see her walk with a came before.

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Speaker 3: I've never seen her on a came before.

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Speaker 2: Now I hadn't. The last time you saw her, she walked.

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Speaker 3: Okay, Yes, she was fine. She came to my house December.

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Speaker 3: I believe it was December eighth or December ninth. It

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Speaker 3: was on a Sunday.

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Speaker 4: We're trying to figure out what happened. Any problems between

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Speaker 4: the two of them lately that you know of.

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Speaker 3: No, they always look like a happy couple of them

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Speaker 3: to me.

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Speaker 1: They ask similar questions to the rest of the family.

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Speaker 4: You know, have you heard your other family members that

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Speaker 4: are related to them?

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Speaker 2: Have you heard them talk about any problems between them. No, no,

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Speaker 2: no problem at all. Everything was good, everything else. Did

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Speaker 2: you understand something's happened here? Yeah, I do understand.

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Speaker 4: And that's a total shock to you. It's a complete

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Speaker 4: sort You don't suspect.

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Speaker 2: Anything that happening, or you don't have any ideas of

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Speaker 2: your own A.

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Speaker 4: No, honey, I don't even know if I don't know

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Speaker 4: if somebody broke in the house, or you know, I

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Speaker 4: have no clue.

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Speaker 2: I don't know.

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Speaker 3: Okay.

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Speaker 1: I'm Maggie Robinson, cats And from BBC Studios and iHeart Podcasts.

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Speaker 1: This is Hands Tied, Episode two, the interview. It's now

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Speaker 1: nine two pm and Sandy Malgar finds herself in a

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Speaker 1: small white room in Harris County Police Station, Texas. She's

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Speaker 1: hunched over a purple chair with her head buried in

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Speaker 1: her hands, her long blonde hair covering her face. She's

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Speaker 1: still wearing the thin black robe, those fluffy socks, no shoes,

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Speaker 1: but she's managed to change into a pair of jeans.

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Speaker 1: Sandy has declined going to the hospital and getting checked out,

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Speaker 1: but agrees to an interview with the police. As the

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Speaker 1: door creaks open, Sandy sits up, lifting her face and

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Speaker 1: tucking her hair behind her ears. The dark circles around

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Speaker 1: her eyes stand out against her waxy, pale skin. A

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Speaker 1: wooden cane is hooked over the arm of her chair.

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Speaker 1: Two stocky detectives enter, wearing almost matching outfits, dark kaki chinos,

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Speaker 1: with one in a white shirt the other in a

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Speaker 1: soft baby blue. One of the cops places two small

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Speaker 1: cups on the square table next to Sandy. The room

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Speaker 1: is cramped, so they have to do an awkward side

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Speaker 1: step as they take their seats on either side of her.

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Speaker 6: Take a picture of titles.

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Speaker 1: That's Sandy. Her voice soft and weak. She points to

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Speaker 1: her feet, telling the detectives that they didn't take a

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Speaker 1: picture of her ankles. They were tied, as well as

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Speaker 1: her hands. The detectives assure her that they'll get to

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Speaker 1: that in a second.

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Speaker 7: I need to do a statement from you, okay, that's

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Speaker 7: why we're here, and I will record in an old

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Speaker 7: statement and give some questions from your answer me.

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Speaker 1: That's Detective Ruben Shawn Carousel, but everyone calls him Sean.

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Speaker 1: He's leading the murder investigation.

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Speaker 2: Case.

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Speaker 7: Number one two one seven six two sixty nine is Sunday,

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Speaker 7: December twenty third, twenty twelve. This is Sean Caronel Harris

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Speaker 7: kind of shafs off with homicide sixty Henry forty two.

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Speaker 1: He's bald, middle aged, A bit what I expect when

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Speaker 1: I hear both the words Texas and cop I can

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Speaker 1: imagine he'd be comfortable grilling both meats and witnesses also

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Speaker 1: with me.

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Speaker 8: It's Sargeant, do say.

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Speaker 1: Sergeant James Toussay is seated directly on Sandy's right. He's

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Speaker 1: also in his middle age, with a similar texas a Saqua.

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Speaker 8: Stargew saying, to identify yourself.

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Speaker 9: I'm sixty Henry thirty nine.

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Speaker 1: Okay, he's lucky to even be in the room. Just

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Speaker 1: two years ago, he was gored by a bull named

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Speaker 1: Peanut and survived, leaving him with scars and the ultimate

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Speaker 1: bar story. The two detectives go way back their childhood friends,

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Speaker 1: and both have come straight from the crime scene to

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Speaker 1: the Harris County Sheriff's office.

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Speaker 8: Okay, ma'am, can you identify yourself for me?

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Speaker 1: As the only survivor and a potential witness to her

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Speaker 1: husband's murder, the detectives need as much detail as they

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Speaker 1: can get from Sandy, and as quickly as possible.

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Speaker 10: We'll start from the morning.

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Speaker 9: When you woke up today?

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Speaker 6: Where are you at?

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Speaker 1: Yes, in my closet, Sandy's hard to hear, she says,

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Speaker 1: in my closet this morning?

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Speaker 8: Yes, Okay, what about yesterday?

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Speaker 9: Let's start yesterday?

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Speaker 6: Yesterday Saturday.

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Speaker 7: Uh.

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Speaker 6: We went up to.

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Speaker 8: Eat at.

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Speaker 6: Mexican restaurant. I think it was the products the roles were.

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Speaker 8: Yeah, what time was that?

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Speaker 4: I was?

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Speaker 6: Who was whucos? Whokos? Uh? I'm listening about eight. I mean,

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Speaker 6: I'm just guessing. I don't know.

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Speaker 4: M h.

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Speaker 1: Sandy sounds a little sketchy. She's slow to speak, vague

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Speaker 1: and unsure of details. But I can imagine she must

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Speaker 1: be exhausted and traumatized. Maybe no wonder she can't remember

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Speaker 1: certain things.

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Speaker 9: While what time did you get home?

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Speaker 6: Probably midnight? Okay, I'm just guessing that I don't know.

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Speaker 9: And when you got home? What did y'all do?

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Speaker 6: We made some drinks, We gotten a ninjakuti.

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Speaker 1: Where they had sex and talked.

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Speaker 9: Man, what were y'all talking about?

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Speaker 6: My daughter?

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Speaker 1: That's their daughter, Liz his job.

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Speaker 11: Oh, here's gonna be turned.

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Speaker 6: And couldn't come stop.

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Speaker 1: Her hand lightly rests on her face for a second,

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Speaker 1: as her voice catches, particularly the memory almost too much

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Speaker 1: to bear. Jim was going to retire next year, they

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Speaker 1: were going to travel. I go back and forward over

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Speaker 1: the interview, trying to figure out what the cops are

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Speaker 1: thinking and land on the moment. They zero in on

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Speaker 1: the events leading up to Jim's murderfly focusing on the

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Speaker 1: moment Jim got out of the chacuzzie to check on

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Speaker 1: their four barking dogs.

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Speaker 4: So the time when he got out to go check

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Speaker 4: on the dogs, to go move the dog?

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Speaker 6: What time was that, when I say one or two

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Speaker 6: in the morning.

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Speaker 4: And when he did that, what kind of noises did

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Speaker 4: you hear?

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Speaker 6: And I think the jacuzzie was still running even when

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Speaker 6: I got out. The jacuzzie was running.

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Speaker 4: Racze was making noise is pretty loud, and you couldn't hear.

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Speaker 9: Anything over that.

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Speaker 6: I didn't hear anything, hear anybody scream no.

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Speaker 9: But you could hear the dogs bark, yeah, because they were.

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Speaker 6: Right outside our window.

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Speaker 1: Sandy says Jim was taking a while with the dogs,

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Speaker 1: so she got out of the chacuzzie and went to

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Speaker 1: her closet to get dressed.

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Speaker 12: Several hours later, I woke up and realized I was

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Speaker 12: tied up and tried to flip over, and then I

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Speaker 12: kind of got stuck where I was for the rest

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Speaker 12: of the time.

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Speaker 6: That's all I remember. I mean, I would tell you

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Speaker 6: more if I remember.

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Speaker 4: Why, I just don't.

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Speaker 9: Do you have pain?

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Speaker 6: Do I have pain? If I have pain in my head?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, She touches the left side of her head, like,

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Speaker 1: what like I got hit.

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Speaker 6: On the head. I don't know if I fell or

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Speaker 6: was pushed or what, but just like all alongside this side.

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Speaker 12: And then I remember oke up and I thought I

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Speaker 12: had had seizure because my muscles hurt in my head

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Speaker 12: was just hurting or bad and usually.

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Speaker 6: That you have been having trouble with controlling my seizure.

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Speaker 1: So Sandy has a laundry list of health issues, something

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Speaker 1: she says she's been struggling with even more in recent months.

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Speaker 1: Alongside the seizures, Sandy has had both her hips replaced,

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Speaker 1: and she also suffers from lupus, which, for whatever reason,

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Speaker 1: she doesn't disclose to the cops. If you don't know,

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Speaker 1: lupas is a really serious autoimmune disease that causes extreme

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Speaker 1: fatigue and joint and muscle pain. Another possible reason why

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Speaker 1: She's foggy, not making sense, can't remember details. She's not well,

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Speaker 1: but the cops aren't sure.

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Speaker 6: I hurt all over and my head hurts.

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Speaker 9: How often do you have seizures like that?

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Speaker 6: I've been getting a more, lady, I'm not able to

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Speaker 6: drive anymore.

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Speaker 9: How frequent.

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Speaker 6: This once a month? Maybe the auras? I get them

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Speaker 6: all the time?

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Speaker 9: Do you take medication for that?

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Speaker 12: Okay?

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Speaker 9: And what was the last time he had one of

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Speaker 9: those before today?

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Speaker 6: About them?

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Speaker 8: Togo at home?

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Speaker 9: And what happens when you have those seizures? What's the symptoms? Well,

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Speaker 9: how do you feel when you have those?

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Speaker 8: Oh?

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Speaker 12: I have rash byds that tell me that I'm going

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Speaker 12: to have one, and it's like I'm very forgetful, more

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Speaker 12: than usual.

250
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Speaker 9: Did you have one of those today?

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Speaker 2: Yeah?

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Speaker 6: I've been having it one week actually all month?

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Speaker 9: So have you been forgetting things all month?

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Speaker 8: Mm?

255
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Speaker 6: Hmm? And right after sometimes I can't even tell you

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Speaker 6: my name?

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Speaker 9: Okay, And let me ask you this, And I asked

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Speaker 9: you before. You didn't answer my question.

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Speaker 10: Why are we here?

260
00:15:42,720 --> 00:15:45,880
Speaker 9: Do you know what has happened today?

261
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Speaker 8: My husband was murdered how.

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Speaker 6: I don't know. I don't think he was shot.

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Speaker 9: What do you under what do you understand has happened? Yeah?

264
00:16:00,080 --> 00:16:04,040
Speaker 9: Told you that he was part I saw him, he did.

265
00:16:04,360 --> 00:16:08,600
Speaker 12: Yes, When in tied me, I heard hysterical screaming and

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00:16:08,640 --> 00:16:11,360
Speaker 12: I ran over there and I.

267
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Speaker 6: Checked this post to see if there's anything we could do.

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Speaker 9: Yeah, I saw him. Okay, I didn't know that.

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Speaker 6: I saw him.

270
00:16:24,280 --> 00:16:28,239
Speaker 1: As Sandy's voice breaks, she puts one hand across her forehead,

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Speaker 1: pushing up her blonde Bang's eyes cast downwards.

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Speaker 9: And he touched him, touched his wrist.

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Speaker 6: I guess she isn't it?

274
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Speaker 3: Okay?

275
00:16:40,240 --> 00:16:44,640
Speaker 12: It's freezing cold, and I shouldn't have touched him, and

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Speaker 12: I covered him.

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Speaker 6: And I should have done that.

278
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Speaker 2: What'd you go wrong with?

279
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Speaker 1: You know?

280
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Speaker 6: Something that was laying next to.

281
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Speaker 11: The jacket, Because Jack, he was very good.

282
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Speaker 6: It's really good care of me.

283
00:17:15,640 --> 00:17:20,760
Speaker 1: Sandy's sobbing, head down on her knees, her hair falling forward.

284
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Speaker 10: Until I got it.

285
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Speaker 1: I've got to tell my daughter, she says between her.

286
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Speaker 5: Sobs, Liz thousands of miles away, having no idea what

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Speaker 5: her mom is going through in this moment, Sandra.

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Speaker 7: Part of our job is we work hundreds and hundreds

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Speaker 7: of mrder Okay, and sometimes we were cold bloody killers.

290
00:17:59,320 --> 00:18:01,840
Speaker 7: They just don't want to street that would just kill

291
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Speaker 7: somebody for nothing.

292
00:18:03,359 --> 00:18:03,719
Speaker 8: Okay.

293
00:18:04,400 --> 00:18:12,800
Speaker 7: Then sometimes were murders that they're an argument and something happens. Okay,

294
00:18:12,920 --> 00:18:18,480
Speaker 7: there's two different types of people. Do understand, because if

295
00:18:18,480 --> 00:18:21,200
Speaker 7: you're arguing with somebody and you lose it in your

296
00:18:21,280 --> 00:18:24,159
Speaker 7: temper and the arguments what happened.

297
00:18:24,000 --> 00:18:24,920
Speaker 9: That's not what happened.

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00:18:25,119 --> 00:18:28,560
Speaker 12: And I think I'm gonna stop talking because I think

299
00:18:28,600 --> 00:18:31,200
Speaker 12: I'm gonna need a lawyer because I know how this works.

300
00:18:35,040 --> 00:18:39,359
Speaker 9: Let me ask you something. It's all procedure for us

301
00:18:39,400 --> 00:18:39,960
Speaker 9: to talk to you.

302
00:18:40,359 --> 00:18:44,639
Speaker 4: Okay, we want to find out the answer to this.

303
00:18:46,359 --> 00:18:49,720
Speaker 9: As bad as you do. Okay, we do, we really do.

304
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Speaker 4: And we're not trying to cause you trouble, will cause

305
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Speaker 4: you pain, but we have a procedure.

306
00:18:58,040 --> 00:18:59,800
Speaker 9: Are you familiar with a polygraph exam?

307
00:19:00,080 --> 00:19:02,240
Speaker 1: M hmm, a lie detector test?

308
00:19:02,560 --> 00:19:04,480
Speaker 9: You should be willing to take a polygraphic examp?

309
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Speaker 2: He's probably her.

310
00:19:07,400 --> 00:19:10,320
Speaker 1: No, not now, she says.

311
00:19:10,480 --> 00:19:13,000
Speaker 6: I'm just the nervous wreck right now.

312
00:19:28,960 --> 00:19:32,200
Speaker 1: It's just after midnight now, and Sandy Melgar walks back

313
00:19:32,200 --> 00:19:35,520
Speaker 1: into the cramped interview room, leaning heavily on a cane.

314
00:19:36,359 --> 00:19:39,359
Speaker 1: She sits down and wrests the wooden stick against her chair.

315
00:19:41,600 --> 00:19:44,680
Speaker 1: Sergeant Dussea comes in and takes the seat nearest her.

316
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Speaker 9: How are you feeling, I've trying to drown the air down.

317
00:19:52,240 --> 00:19:54,840
Speaker 9: This building keeps us constant of them. Sure you know.

318
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Speaker 4: I'll be up rue honest with you, There's some things

319
00:20:00,119 --> 00:20:03,720
Speaker 4: don't add up in your story and what you're telling me.

320
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Speaker 9: Okay, maybe you could help me understand it.

321
00:20:08,560 --> 00:20:10,399
Speaker 4: Now. You said you've been married thirty two years and

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00:20:10,480 --> 00:20:12,280
Speaker 4: you were supposed to celebrate that on.

323
00:20:12,320 --> 00:20:17,040
Speaker 1: The twelfth December twelfth is their actual anniversary, but they

324
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Speaker 1: were celebrating on the twenty second.

325
00:20:19,400 --> 00:20:21,040
Speaker 9: Well, what reason was it that you did?

326
00:20:22,600 --> 00:20:23,320
Speaker 6: I was it feeling?

327
00:20:23,400 --> 00:20:23,600
Speaker 12: Well?

328
00:20:23,920 --> 00:20:30,280
Speaker 10: Okay, I noticed you walked with a cane? Why is that?

329
00:20:31,400 --> 00:20:34,000
Speaker 6: I've had my hips replaced and I have a lot

330
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Speaker 6: of joint pain.

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Speaker 4: How long ago did you have the hips replaced?

332
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Speaker 6: My left one.

333
00:20:42,240 --> 00:20:47,280
Speaker 12: About ten years ago or eleven, and then the right

334
00:20:47,320 --> 00:20:48,879
Speaker 12: one about five years after that.

335
00:20:50,119 --> 00:20:52,800
Speaker 10: You've been walking with a cane ever since that? It's

336
00:20:52,880 --> 00:20:53,840
Speaker 10: just when'd you start?

337
00:20:56,080 --> 00:20:57,040
Speaker 3: It's on and off.

338
00:20:57,160 --> 00:21:00,240
Speaker 13: When it's colds, my joints hurt more, but late it's

339
00:21:00,280 --> 00:21:02,840
Speaker 13: been more often because so how.

340
00:21:02,760 --> 00:21:04,360
Speaker 10: Long you think you've been walking to the cane out?

341
00:21:07,240 --> 00:21:09,600
Speaker 6: A couple of weeks, but some when the days are warmer,

342
00:21:09,960 --> 00:21:10,920
Speaker 6: they don't really use it.

343
00:21:12,720 --> 00:21:16,399
Speaker 1: From the detective's point of view, Sandy's poor health doesn't

344
00:21:16,480 --> 00:21:21,000
Speaker 1: rule her out as a suspect. Quite the opposite. Maybe

345
00:21:21,040 --> 00:21:23,719
Speaker 1: she's playing it up using a cane she doesn't need

346
00:21:23,800 --> 00:21:24,840
Speaker 1: to elicit sympathy.

347
00:21:26,080 --> 00:21:28,760
Speaker 4: You know, something I want you to understand is that

348
00:21:30,160 --> 00:21:33,719
Speaker 4: we investigate something like this, Sandra.

349
00:21:33,760 --> 00:21:35,240
Speaker 10: I want you to understand that.

350
00:21:37,240 --> 00:21:41,960
Speaker 9: We go to all extremes. You know, we don't quit.

351
00:21:43,000 --> 00:21:45,359
Speaker 9: You're going to see a lot of me, You're going

352
00:21:45,440 --> 00:21:46,399
Speaker 9: to see a lot of my partner.

353
00:21:47,960 --> 00:21:48,199
Speaker 11: You are.

354
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Speaker 14: We're going to find out everything about you. We're going

355
00:21:51,400 --> 00:21:54,200
Speaker 14: to find out everything about your husband. We're going to

356
00:21:54,240 --> 00:21:56,480
Speaker 14: talk to everybody in your neighborhood. We're going to talk

357
00:21:56,560 --> 00:22:01,879
Speaker 14: to everybody that you're related to. We're going to learn everything.

358
00:22:04,520 --> 00:22:05,600
Speaker 6: Because it's not me.

359
00:22:06,280 --> 00:22:08,600
Speaker 4: It's just so important that you be honest with us.

360
00:22:09,359 --> 00:22:13,640
Speaker 4: You know, I told you it's protocol that we start close.

361
00:22:13,440 --> 00:22:19,119
Speaker 15: To that victim that's you, Okay, And you know we

362
00:22:19,200 --> 00:22:22,440
Speaker 15: didn't just walk into this ball game yesterday, and we

363
00:22:22,560 --> 00:22:23,760
Speaker 15: can tell a whole lot of stuff.

364
00:22:24,520 --> 00:22:26,879
Speaker 9: By the way, that when we start.

365
00:22:26,680 --> 00:22:29,560
Speaker 4: With people, the way they react, the way they act,

366
00:22:29,840 --> 00:22:33,439
Speaker 4: you need to understand that may I always show, may

367
00:22:33,520 --> 00:22:36,200
Speaker 4: not always let that be be known to you.

368
00:22:37,240 --> 00:22:41,080
Speaker 9: But we're no fools. You need to understand that too, okay.

369
00:22:43,000 --> 00:22:46,880
Speaker 4: And we've been doing this long enough where there's things

370
00:22:46,920 --> 00:22:47,679
Speaker 4: we recognize.

371
00:22:49,440 --> 00:22:52,680
Speaker 9: You got to understand that too, Okay.

372
00:22:54,520 --> 00:22:57,720
Speaker 10: We talk to people all the time. I never said

373
00:22:57,760 --> 00:23:03,560
Speaker 10: you did. I did ask you to take a polygraph test?

374
00:23:03,720 --> 00:23:07,800
Speaker 6: Yes, I did, and not shaking and freezing and.

375
00:23:07,920 --> 00:23:11,440
Speaker 4: What's your what's your explanation though, what's your excuse for

376
00:23:11,600 --> 00:23:12,320
Speaker 4: not taking one?

377
00:23:13,920 --> 00:23:16,480
Speaker 9: It's not holding water, Sandra. I'm just gonna be honest

378
00:23:16,520 --> 00:23:17,480
Speaker 9: with you. It's not.

379
00:23:17,840 --> 00:23:19,400
Speaker 6: I just don't want to take it. And then it's

380
00:23:19,520 --> 00:23:20,200
Speaker 6: used against me.

381
00:23:20,960 --> 00:23:22,920
Speaker 1: Now the gloves are off.

382
00:23:23,200 --> 00:23:26,640
Speaker 10: Are you covering something else? Why would you take a polygraph?

383
00:23:27,600 --> 00:23:31,480
Speaker 6: Because I'm so stress right now I can't even think straight.

384
00:23:32,200 --> 00:23:33,120
Speaker 9: It's not a good reason.

385
00:23:33,280 --> 00:23:37,200
Speaker 13: Well, I just don't want to use against me, that's

386
00:23:37,240 --> 00:23:41,240
Speaker 13: all I'll take it, But not just use against you

387
00:23:42,240 --> 00:23:47,199
Speaker 13: because I'm stressed, and I mean I just.

388
00:23:49,119 --> 00:23:49,920
Speaker 10: Beyond beyond that.

389
00:23:50,640 --> 00:23:51,840
Speaker 8: Does your husband ever hit you?

390
00:23:52,720 --> 00:23:52,760
Speaker 4: No?

391
00:23:53,560 --> 00:23:58,119
Speaker 15: No, piscopal No, never did your husband tell you something

392
00:23:58,280 --> 00:23:59,840
Speaker 15: that that made you black out.

393
00:24:00,440 --> 00:24:02,600
Speaker 10: No, doesn't work that way.

394
00:24:03,960 --> 00:24:07,320
Speaker 7: As your would your husband have a girlfriend signer, they'd

395
00:24:07,320 --> 00:24:08,640
Speaker 7: be a jealous boyfriend, would coat.

396
00:24:08,880 --> 00:24:11,840
Speaker 8: Yeah, as your husband of cosey, he was going to

397
00:24:11,960 --> 00:24:12,159
Speaker 8: leave you.

398
00:24:12,520 --> 00:24:16,080
Speaker 6: Yeah, they were taking plans. We were making plans. Who

399
00:24:16,600 --> 00:24:17,359
Speaker 6: would leave me?

400
00:24:17,840 --> 00:24:19,480
Speaker 8: Do you think he's ever caught one of his family

401
00:24:19,560 --> 00:24:20,680
Speaker 8: members that he was going to leave you?

402
00:24:22,080 --> 00:24:25,560
Speaker 1: To Sandy, that couldn't be further from the truth. They

403
00:24:25,600 --> 00:24:28,639
Speaker 1: were planning to go traveling together. They were sitting in

404
00:24:28,720 --> 00:24:32,560
Speaker 1: the jacuzzie talking about their plans for retirement, the trips

405
00:24:32,600 --> 00:24:33,520
Speaker 1: they were going to take.

406
00:24:34,960 --> 00:24:36,960
Speaker 2: You know what I saw there.

407
00:24:38,760 --> 00:24:43,280
Speaker 4: When I saw your husband's body, that's a pretty violent attack. Okay,

408
00:24:43,920 --> 00:24:48,840
Speaker 4: And if he encountered something that.

409
00:24:48,960 --> 00:24:53,720
Speaker 9: Would do what we see there, you're going to hear it.

410
00:24:54,280 --> 00:24:55,399
Speaker 10: You're going to hear something.

411
00:24:56,520 --> 00:25:00,520
Speaker 1: And Sandy reiterates that she left the jets running when

412
00:25:00,560 --> 00:25:03,399
Speaker 1: she went to get dressed. Well, Jim brought in the dogs.

413
00:25:04,440 --> 00:25:08,040
Speaker 1: The jets, according to Sandy, are why she couldn't hear

414
00:25:08,200 --> 00:25:08,879
Speaker 1: Jim's screen.

415
00:25:10,880 --> 00:25:14,080
Speaker 4: I don't care if you've got a tank cranked up

416
00:25:14,160 --> 00:25:17,840
Speaker 4: in that bathroom with you, you're gonna hear something. When

417
00:25:17,920 --> 00:25:23,359
Speaker 4: somebody encounters somebody that's stabashed, somebody that violently, that many

418
00:25:23,480 --> 00:25:25,639
Speaker 4: times you're gonna hear that.

419
00:25:27,640 --> 00:25:29,960
Speaker 6: You didn't hear anything. I wish I had heard something.

420
00:25:30,040 --> 00:25:30,800
Speaker 9: I didn't.

421
00:25:33,280 --> 00:25:33,600
Speaker 2: See that.

422
00:25:33,760 --> 00:25:36,639
Speaker 4: What we're seeing there, the physical evidence that's there, and

423
00:25:36,760 --> 00:25:37,640
Speaker 4: what you're telling us.

424
00:25:39,400 --> 00:25:40,600
Speaker 9: Just not adding up. Sandra.

425
00:25:41,840 --> 00:25:43,240
Speaker 4: I'm not wanting to call you a liar, but what

426
00:25:43,280 --> 00:25:47,359
Speaker 4: I'm saying to hear something. You're the only person that

427
00:25:47,480 --> 00:25:48,200
Speaker 4: was in that house.

428
00:25:49,560 --> 00:25:51,600
Speaker 2: You know we're here, we're going to try to.

429
00:25:51,600 --> 00:25:53,200
Speaker 4: Get to the bottom of this, but you're the only

430
00:25:53,240 --> 00:25:56,280
Speaker 4: one that was in that house. Well, it is ironic

431
00:25:56,480 --> 00:26:02,560
Speaker 4: that you could you black out exact time when he's

432
00:26:02,600 --> 00:26:06,960
Speaker 4: getting down and bludgeon I don't have an answer for

433
00:26:08,000 --> 00:26:12,680
Speaker 4: multiple times like that, dying screaming for help.

434
00:26:13,160 --> 00:26:16,720
Speaker 10: Oh my gosh, just I don't know. I don't understand that.

435
00:26:16,800 --> 00:26:17,680
Speaker 10: That's not right.

436
00:26:17,840 --> 00:26:19,520
Speaker 8: I mean, it's a lot of blood that he lost.

437
00:26:20,680 --> 00:26:24,320
Speaker 9: Could you hear him, No, I couldn't hear him.

438
00:26:24,440 --> 00:26:25,840
Speaker 8: Could you hear me all for help?

439
00:26:26,080 --> 00:26:26,119
Speaker 6: No?

440
00:26:27,240 --> 00:26:31,080
Speaker 8: Could you hear screaming? I didn't hear it.

441
00:26:31,240 --> 00:26:32,120
Speaker 2: I mean he was in pain.

442
00:26:32,920 --> 00:26:33,439
Speaker 9: We know that.

443
00:26:35,520 --> 00:26:36,400
Speaker 8: He suffered a lot.

444
00:26:39,000 --> 00:26:39,840
Speaker 9: I need you to help me.

445
00:26:41,359 --> 00:26:42,200
Speaker 10: I need you to help me.

446
00:26:44,480 --> 00:26:45,680
Speaker 8: I need you to help me on this.

447
00:26:47,600 --> 00:26:51,280
Speaker 1: It's as though Detective Carousel is channeling Jim in his

448
00:26:51,440 --> 00:26:52,320
Speaker 1: final moments.

449
00:26:53,960 --> 00:26:54,600
Speaker 8: Can you help me?

450
00:26:54,880 --> 00:26:55,760
Speaker 2: I need you to help me.

451
00:26:58,720 --> 00:26:59,840
Speaker 8: Andrew, can you help me?

452
00:27:00,000 --> 00:27:00,920
Speaker 6: I didn't hear anything.

453
00:27:02,040 --> 00:27:03,840
Speaker 8: Can you help me? I need you to help me.

454
00:27:08,040 --> 00:27:08,959
Speaker 6: Did you hear anything?

455
00:27:10,119 --> 00:27:10,760
Speaker 2: I need help?

456
00:27:13,119 --> 00:27:13,800
Speaker 8: Please help me?

457
00:27:16,119 --> 00:27:19,879
Speaker 7: Screaming after screaming, after screaming, even pain, I need help.

458
00:27:21,520 --> 00:27:24,320
Speaker 1: The bizarre incantation goes on and on.

459
00:27:25,119 --> 00:27:33,080
Speaker 8: Help me, help me, help me. Cousin's a nice guy.

460
00:27:34,200 --> 00:27:35,200
Speaker 8: He went through a lot of pain.

461
00:27:36,440 --> 00:27:40,080
Speaker 1: Help me until Sandy's finally had enough.

462
00:27:40,800 --> 00:27:45,120
Speaker 6: I didn't hear anything already. I need help.

463
00:27:48,960 --> 00:27:49,800
Speaker 8: I need help.

464
00:27:52,000 --> 00:27:52,320
Speaker 2: Help me.

465
00:27:53,600 --> 00:27:54,440
Speaker 6: That's it, that's it.

466
00:27:55,280 --> 00:27:56,040
Speaker 3: I need a lawyer.

467
00:27:56,320 --> 00:27:59,080
Speaker 6: I'm not talking anymore because you guys are just trying

468
00:27:59,119 --> 00:27:59,800
Speaker 6: to torture me.

469
00:28:00,080 --> 00:28:00,199
Speaker 7: Here.

470
00:28:00,880 --> 00:28:01,760
Speaker 9: I'm not torturing you.

471
00:28:02,240 --> 00:28:03,240
Speaker 8: I'm asking for help.

472
00:28:04,760 --> 00:28:05,840
Speaker 1: But they're not done yet.

473
00:28:07,400 --> 00:28:10,120
Speaker 6: She loved your husband, yes, I love my husband.

474
00:28:11,600 --> 00:28:18,240
Speaker 16: Yes, she wants to finally kill him. Of course, I

475
00:28:18,280 --> 00:28:22,520
Speaker 16: don't think you did. Did you stage that at your house?

476
00:28:22,640 --> 00:28:22,800
Speaker 4: Now?

477
00:28:23,640 --> 00:28:24,159
Speaker 6: Stage it?

478
00:28:24,520 --> 00:28:24,760
Speaker 9: Yeah?

479
00:28:25,200 --> 00:28:25,879
Speaker 10: Did you plan this?

480
00:28:27,040 --> 00:28:28,760
Speaker 4: No? No?

481
00:28:28,960 --> 00:28:29,280
Speaker 8: I did not.

482
00:28:30,119 --> 00:28:31,239
Speaker 9: Would you tell me if you did?

483
00:28:33,680 --> 00:28:35,520
Speaker 6: I wouln't even know where to start to stage it,

484
00:28:38,000 --> 00:28:40,320
Speaker 6: and how am I going to tie myself up like that?

485
00:28:40,680 --> 00:28:42,080
Speaker 6: And I ain't gonna be able to get out of it.

486
00:28:42,160 --> 00:28:46,240
Speaker 6: I mean, I really was trying to get out of it.

487
00:28:48,200 --> 00:28:49,200
Speaker 8: Did you kill your husband?

488
00:28:50,880 --> 00:28:50,920
Speaker 16: No?

489
00:28:51,200 --> 00:28:51,680
Speaker 9: I didn't.

490
00:28:58,760 --> 00:29:02,680
Speaker 1: It's one fourteen am on Christmas Eve, nine hours since

491
00:29:02,720 --> 00:29:05,920
Speaker 1: Sandy was found by her family, since they all learned

492
00:29:05,960 --> 00:29:11,360
Speaker 1: that Jim had been murdered. The interview's over and she's exhausted.

493
00:29:12,640 --> 00:29:17,080
Speaker 1: She's bewildered. To Sandy, she can't fathom how this nightmare

494
00:29:17,160 --> 00:29:22,240
Speaker 1: has happened. Her husband's dead and somehow she's being accused

495
00:29:22,360 --> 00:29:23,080
Speaker 1: for his murder.

496
00:29:25,000 --> 00:29:26,160
Speaker 3: I'm good an emergency.

497
00:29:26,280 --> 00:29:27,120
Speaker 1: I can stay calm.

498
00:29:27,200 --> 00:29:28,080
Speaker 3: I know what I need to do.

499
00:29:28,440 --> 00:29:41,080
Speaker 1: I can assess the situation. You've been listening to Hands Tied,

500
00:29:41,600 --> 00:29:45,000
Speaker 1: a new eight part true crime series from BBC Studios

501
00:29:45,080 --> 00:29:49,560
Speaker 1: and iHeart Podcasts. New episodes will be released weekly, so

502
00:29:49,800 --> 00:29:53,240
Speaker 1: subscribe or follow on the iHeartRadio app or wherever you

503
00:29:53,360 --> 00:29:57,400
Speaker 1: get your podcasts so you don't miss out. If you

504
00:29:57,560 --> 00:29:59,960
Speaker 1: like the show, please help us by spreading the word

505
00:30:00,280 --> 00:30:04,440
Speaker 1: or giving us a five star review. I'm Maggie Robinson

506
00:30:04,520 --> 00:30:09,120
Speaker 1: Katz and the producer is Maggie Latham. Sound design in

507
00:30:09,280 --> 00:30:13,200
Speaker 1: mix is by Tom Brignall. Our script consultant is Emma

508
00:30:13,240 --> 00:30:17,960
Speaker 1: Weatherall production support is from Dan Martini, Elena Boutang and

509
00:30:18,160 --> 00:30:23,080
Speaker 1: Mabel Finnegan Wright, and our production executive is Laura Jordan Raul.

510
00:30:23,920 --> 00:30:27,520
Speaker 1: The series was developed by Anya Saunders and Emma Shaw

511
00:30:28,520 --> 00:30:32,720
Speaker 1: at iHeart. The managing Executive producer is Christina Everett, and

512
00:30:32,880 --> 00:30:36,240
Speaker 1: for BBC Studios, the executive producer is Joe Kent,