1 00:00:08,960 --> 00:00:12,760 Speaker 1: This is a meat eating podcast coming at you shirtless, 2 00:00:12,800 --> 00:00:17,680 Speaker 1: severely bug bitten in my case, underwear listening Hunt E podcast, 3 00:00:18,239 --> 00:00:22,440 Speaker 1: You can't predict anything presented by on X. Hunt creators 4 00:00:22,480 --> 00:00:26,120 Speaker 1: are the most comprehensive digital mapping system for hunters. Download 5 00:00:26,120 --> 00:00:28,960 Speaker 1: the Hunt app from the iTunes or Google play store. 6 00:00:29,320 --> 00:00:35,800 Speaker 1: Nor where you stand with on X. All right, everyone, 7 00:00:35,840 --> 00:00:40,240 Speaker 1: we're joining today by our first ever We should have 8 00:00:40,280 --> 00:00:43,320 Speaker 1: done this a long time ago, our first ever genuine 9 00:00:44,760 --> 00:00:51,199 Speaker 1: meat scientists, Chris Calkins. Do you go by? Is that right? 10 00:00:51,280 --> 00:00:55,000 Speaker 1: Meat scientists? Is that cool to say? Yeah, absolutely, that's 11 00:00:55,040 --> 00:00:56,760 Speaker 1: the right way to do it. Let me test your 12 00:00:56,760 --> 00:00:59,279 Speaker 1: knowledge to find out if you're legit. Do you know 13 00:00:59,480 --> 00:01:04,400 Speaker 1: what a Warner? I think it's called a Warner Bruntler 14 00:01:05,000 --> 00:01:13,000 Speaker 1: sheer force test is well, it's a Warner Bratsler Chan 15 00:01:13,280 --> 00:01:20,000 Speaker 1: Warner and Lyman Bratsler decades ago created an objective tenderness 16 00:01:20,160 --> 00:01:24,640 Speaker 1: machine and it was that share force machine you're referring to. 17 00:01:26,920 --> 00:01:29,040 Speaker 1: So you passed, But let me ask you this question. 18 00:01:29,840 --> 00:01:33,039 Speaker 1: How many holes does that thing punch into the steak? 19 00:01:35,000 --> 00:01:38,600 Speaker 1: That's uh, it's up to the operator, but typically we 20 00:01:38,640 --> 00:01:43,600 Speaker 1: would expect to get six cores from a regular beef steak, 21 00:01:43,680 --> 00:01:47,840 Speaker 1: for example, in smaller animals, you have to get by 22 00:01:47,920 --> 00:01:52,720 Speaker 1: with fewer cores and more steaks. Okay, good, we'll proceed now. No, now, 23 00:01:52,760 --> 00:01:54,800 Speaker 1: I have faith that that Karen found us the right 24 00:01:54,840 --> 00:02:00,280 Speaker 1: meat scientist. Uh what is the first? Off? Tell us? Like? What? What? 25 00:02:00,280 --> 00:02:03,640 Speaker 1: What is a meeting? What is uh? What is meat science? 26 00:02:04,040 --> 00:02:09,840 Speaker 1: And how does one you know get there? It's been 27 00:02:09,880 --> 00:02:14,080 Speaker 1: an interesting journey to become a meat scientist. I was 28 00:02:14,639 --> 00:02:17,560 Speaker 1: involved in agriculture as a high school student in the 29 00:02:17,600 --> 00:02:21,600 Speaker 1: state of Washington. Had a really cool high school agg 30 00:02:21,639 --> 00:02:26,040 Speaker 1: teacher who is a lifetime mentor for me, and I 31 00:02:26,200 --> 00:02:29,240 Speaker 1: was lucky enough. As a senior in high school, I 32 00:02:29,280 --> 00:02:33,480 Speaker 1: served as a State Future Farmers of America President State 33 00:02:33,600 --> 00:02:36,960 Speaker 1: f f A president, and that same time he went 34 00:02:37,000 --> 00:02:40,680 Speaker 1: to Texas and m to work on a Master of 35 00:02:40,720 --> 00:02:44,400 Speaker 1: Science in meet science. And I always thought it was 36 00:02:44,440 --> 00:02:47,800 Speaker 1: going to be a veterinarian. But I packed everything in 37 00:02:47,840 --> 00:02:51,520 Speaker 1: a car, drove to Texas, and the day I got there, 38 00:02:51,840 --> 00:02:54,160 Speaker 1: I got a job in the meat lab and I 39 00:02:54,200 --> 00:02:57,280 Speaker 1: liked it well enough. Apparently I've never left since then. 40 00:02:57,560 --> 00:03:00,680 Speaker 1: So eventually went on and got a like what is 41 00:03:00,720 --> 00:03:04,200 Speaker 1: your You have a PhD? Like what is it? What 42 00:03:04,320 --> 00:03:07,400 Speaker 1: is it? What was your dissertation? Like what sort of 43 00:03:07,520 --> 00:03:10,560 Speaker 1: like how do you narrow in on this super broad 44 00:03:10,760 --> 00:03:15,399 Speaker 1: meat science category and find your personal you know, expertise. Well, 45 00:03:15,400 --> 00:03:17,679 Speaker 1: that's a that's a great point because the field of 46 00:03:17,760 --> 00:03:21,359 Speaker 1: meat science is really quite broad. That is, everything from 47 00:03:21,400 --> 00:03:25,000 Speaker 1: the live animal all the way through to the products 48 00:03:25,000 --> 00:03:28,680 Speaker 1: that we eat. And my dissertation had to do with 49 00:03:28,720 --> 00:03:33,720 Speaker 1: the enzymes in meat that break up proteins in other words, 50 00:03:33,760 --> 00:03:38,280 Speaker 1: the tenderization process. And I have built my career looking 51 00:03:38,320 --> 00:03:45,880 Speaker 1: at quality, particularly eating quality characteristics of meat. How much 52 00:03:47,200 --> 00:03:54,680 Speaker 1: how familiar familiar are you with um kind of like 53 00:03:54,880 --> 00:03:59,120 Speaker 1: layman perspectives about meat? Right, Like you have to in 54 00:03:59,240 --> 00:04:05,360 Speaker 1: conversation with people or in restaurants or backyard barbecues, you 55 00:04:05,440 --> 00:04:09,240 Speaker 1: have to hear a lot of like theories about why 56 00:04:09,280 --> 00:04:12,640 Speaker 1: this is that way, that that our way off And 57 00:04:12,680 --> 00:04:14,160 Speaker 1: if you don't know if you hang out with hunters 58 00:04:14,240 --> 00:04:18,120 Speaker 1: or not, but you'd probably get inundated with screwball theories 59 00:04:18,120 --> 00:04:21,760 Speaker 1: about what is the way it is or why certain 60 00:04:21,800 --> 00:04:25,760 Speaker 1: things are this way and why they're that way. Yeah, 61 00:04:25,800 --> 00:04:30,159 Speaker 1: it becomes a compulsion related to try and set the 62 00:04:30,200 --> 00:04:33,280 Speaker 1: record straight, make sure everybody understands what we're talking about. 63 00:04:33,400 --> 00:04:38,680 Speaker 1: So I'm I'm in addition to having ah of my 64 00:04:38,800 --> 00:04:42,200 Speaker 1: time is spent on research, but the other thirty percent 65 00:04:42,360 --> 00:04:46,880 Speaker 1: is spent on teaching. So I teach both undergraduate students 66 00:04:46,960 --> 00:04:52,880 Speaker 1: as well as master and doctoral students as well. Yeah, 67 00:04:53,200 --> 00:04:56,440 Speaker 1: let me hate you with Okay, Spencer's gonna hit Spencer 68 00:04:56,440 --> 00:04:58,640 Speaker 1: new Hearth, our very own and special Spencer new Hearth 69 00:04:58,800 --> 00:05:01,599 Speaker 1: is now going to hit you with um. This is 70 00:05:01,640 --> 00:05:05,640 Speaker 1: probably the question we get the most, and this is 71 00:05:05,640 --> 00:05:08,039 Speaker 1: a wild game question, but I'm sure it has so 72 00:05:08,080 --> 00:05:11,200 Speaker 1: many parallels to domestic production that you'll know exactly what 73 00:05:11,240 --> 00:05:13,960 Speaker 1: we're talking about. But this is sort of the leading 74 00:05:15,080 --> 00:05:22,440 Speaker 1: hunter based wild game problem question. How would you put it, Spencer? 75 00:05:23,920 --> 00:05:28,520 Speaker 1: Do stressed out animals taste worse? And can that stress 76 00:05:28,560 --> 00:05:30,760 Speaker 1: be a factor of something like the rut for a 77 00:05:30,760 --> 00:05:34,280 Speaker 1: white tailed deer or an elk um or from a 78 00:05:34,320 --> 00:05:37,120 Speaker 1: bad shot where a deer is hitted then it runs 79 00:05:37,120 --> 00:05:40,039 Speaker 1: a mile and it lays there for four hours and 80 00:05:40,160 --> 00:05:43,760 Speaker 1: slowly dies. Can a stress like that toward the adrenaline 81 00:05:44,279 --> 00:05:51,360 Speaker 1: make them taste worse? That initial burst of adrenaline does 82 00:05:51,440 --> 00:05:55,279 Speaker 1: not have a real big impact, but if it's around 83 00:05:55,360 --> 00:05:57,839 Speaker 1: for very long. In other words, if we have a 84 00:05:57,880 --> 00:06:03,440 Speaker 1: longer term stress like the run, for example, then absolutely 85 00:06:03,520 --> 00:06:06,559 Speaker 1: there are metabolic changes that take place in the meat 86 00:06:07,120 --> 00:06:10,599 Speaker 1: that will impact the eating quality of that product. I'd 87 00:06:10,600 --> 00:06:12,880 Speaker 1: be happy to explain that further, but we do not 88 00:06:13,240 --> 00:06:15,000 Speaker 1: want to go no dig in man. We want to 89 00:06:15,000 --> 00:06:20,280 Speaker 1: go way deep awesome. So think about what we know 90 00:06:20,520 --> 00:06:24,880 Speaker 1: is the way the body stores energy um is through 91 00:06:24,960 --> 00:06:29,880 Speaker 1: glycogen initially, and then that turns we also store energy 92 00:06:29,920 --> 00:06:35,039 Speaker 1: as fat, but that glancogen is used to provide the 93 00:06:35,160 --> 00:06:38,039 Speaker 1: short term burst of energy we need when an animal, 94 00:06:38,080 --> 00:06:42,039 Speaker 1: for example, is running. Now it turns out that once 95 00:06:42,080 --> 00:06:46,039 Speaker 1: that animal has been harvested, that glycogen gets converted to 96 00:06:46,120 --> 00:06:49,960 Speaker 1: acid in the muscle. It becomes more acidic. We would 97 00:06:50,000 --> 00:06:54,239 Speaker 1: say it has a lower pH that's normal, that's good. 98 00:06:54,640 --> 00:06:56,640 Speaker 1: That's what we're all used to with all of the 99 00:06:56,720 --> 00:07:00,880 Speaker 1: muscle foods that we eat. Is that normal h decline 100 00:07:00,920 --> 00:07:05,039 Speaker 1: that occurs when an animals harvested. The problem is when 101 00:07:05,040 --> 00:07:07,840 Speaker 1: you get that burst of adrenaline, or you spend five 102 00:07:07,960 --> 00:07:11,360 Speaker 1: days at the runt running around acting like a teenager 103 00:07:11,440 --> 00:07:13,360 Speaker 1: and not eating and all the rest of that, we 104 00:07:13,480 --> 00:07:18,720 Speaker 1: exhaust the glycogen stores in the animal, and when that happens, 105 00:07:19,280 --> 00:07:22,800 Speaker 1: that pH does not drop, it does not become acidic, 106 00:07:23,400 --> 00:07:27,560 Speaker 1: and we get all kinds of weird, strange flavors, and 107 00:07:27,720 --> 00:07:31,640 Speaker 1: the texture is different. It's dark, it's sticky. Most people 108 00:07:31,720 --> 00:07:35,600 Speaker 1: find that kind of product not very desirable. And the 109 00:07:35,640 --> 00:07:38,800 Speaker 1: time course of that really depends on how much stress 110 00:07:38,880 --> 00:07:42,160 Speaker 1: the animal has and how long it takes place. So Spencer, 111 00:07:42,240 --> 00:07:45,600 Speaker 1: your question about four hours and a long, slow death, 112 00:07:46,440 --> 00:07:49,360 Speaker 1: that's probably long enough to have an impact on that animal. 113 00:07:49,880 --> 00:07:52,240 Speaker 1: If that animal is injured in a while, say it 114 00:07:52,240 --> 00:07:55,720 Speaker 1: breaks a leg or something, then all of those kinds 115 00:07:55,760 --> 00:08:00,480 Speaker 1: of things will give long enough stress. Glycogen is houstag 116 00:08:00,640 --> 00:08:04,560 Speaker 1: pH stays high, meat doesn't taste very good. You know. 117 00:08:05,320 --> 00:08:08,160 Speaker 1: A good extreme of this that I think about is 118 00:08:09,040 --> 00:08:12,280 Speaker 1: the um. One time, my brother rancher that my brother 119 00:08:12,320 --> 00:08:16,560 Speaker 1: and his friends know, told them about a bull that 120 00:08:16,640 --> 00:08:18,880 Speaker 1: he had that had broken its leg down in the 121 00:08:18,880 --> 00:08:22,160 Speaker 1: bottom of some coolie and it'd been down there while 122 00:08:22,200 --> 00:08:24,320 Speaker 1: and he couldn't find it, and eventually found it, and 123 00:08:24,360 --> 00:08:26,320 Speaker 1: he told those guys, if you want to go get it, 124 00:08:26,360 --> 00:08:30,280 Speaker 1: you can have it. This thing is huge, you know, 125 00:08:31,040 --> 00:08:33,760 Speaker 1: And they went down and got it and my brother 126 00:08:33,880 --> 00:08:35,559 Speaker 1: comes home and makes a steak out of it, And 127 00:08:35,600 --> 00:08:38,760 Speaker 1: I mean, it was probably already a bull. It was 128 00:08:38,800 --> 00:08:40,560 Speaker 1: already a bull. So that's probably a couple of strikes 129 00:08:40,600 --> 00:08:43,360 Speaker 1: against it. But I mean, I'm not exaggerating when I 130 00:08:43,400 --> 00:08:48,640 Speaker 1: say that it was unchewable. Yeah, it's um. Most of 131 00:08:48,760 --> 00:08:52,160 Speaker 1: the stress related response has to do with taste, has 132 00:08:52,240 --> 00:08:54,760 Speaker 1: to do with flavor. The fact that it was a 133 00:08:54,760 --> 00:08:57,400 Speaker 1: bull and an older animal, that's what makes it tough. 134 00:08:58,120 --> 00:09:01,960 Speaker 1: But we have people who contact us regularly with a 135 00:09:02,080 --> 00:09:06,800 Speaker 1: very similar situation. An animal is injured, been hanging around 136 00:09:06,800 --> 00:09:09,080 Speaker 1: for quite a while, and they wonder can they turn 137 00:09:09,120 --> 00:09:12,040 Speaker 1: it down to a steak or ground beef, And uh, 138 00:09:12,120 --> 00:09:16,080 Speaker 1: it's it's just a different taste. And so that's a 139 00:09:16,280 --> 00:09:21,800 Speaker 1: pretty common complaint that people have homes. So the toughness 140 00:09:22,040 --> 00:09:27,120 Speaker 1: is toughness isn't related to stress, not so much that 141 00:09:27,360 --> 00:09:31,120 Speaker 1: the stress has a far bigger impact on flavor than 142 00:09:31,200 --> 00:09:35,080 Speaker 1: it does on toughness. All right, So one of the 143 00:09:35,120 --> 00:09:38,800 Speaker 1: things that makes certain things, like what makes certain animals 144 00:09:38,880 --> 00:09:43,199 Speaker 1: inexplicably tough, like you know, I mean you could sometimes 145 00:09:43,200 --> 00:09:47,120 Speaker 1: you'll have guys get whatever, like you get you know, 146 00:09:47,200 --> 00:09:49,840 Speaker 1: a box or someone will get you know, ten bull 147 00:09:49,840 --> 00:09:53,120 Speaker 1: elk and they're all great. In the eleventh one, it's 148 00:09:53,160 --> 00:09:57,440 Speaker 1: just chewier in hell umkay wolf off and say like, 149 00:09:57,480 --> 00:10:00,079 Speaker 1: oh he must have been stressed. Would be our be 150 00:10:00,120 --> 00:10:02,240 Speaker 1: like a thing that we would say when you encounter 151 00:10:02,360 --> 00:10:07,520 Speaker 1: that super tough animal. There's there's really three things broadly 152 00:10:07,640 --> 00:10:12,040 Speaker 1: that impact toughness. One has to do with how contracted 153 00:10:12,400 --> 00:10:16,160 Speaker 1: that muscle cell is, how much integrity there is in 154 00:10:16,200 --> 00:10:20,240 Speaker 1: the muscle cell. The second thing has to do is 155 00:10:20,320 --> 00:10:25,120 Speaker 1: something called connective tissue. That's that white, silvery tissue on 156 00:10:25,160 --> 00:10:28,200 Speaker 1: the outside of the meat. And then the third part 157 00:10:28,360 --> 00:10:32,000 Speaker 1: is fat. And so anything we do to impact any 158 00:10:32,040 --> 00:10:37,960 Speaker 1: of those three things can impact tenderness. Uh, let me 159 00:10:37,960 --> 00:10:39,520 Speaker 1: ask you one more than Spencer's gotta ask you a 160 00:10:39,520 --> 00:10:43,000 Speaker 1: good question. Uh, have you ever have you ever had 161 00:10:43,080 --> 00:10:45,480 Speaker 1: occasion to eat like soup, like to eat deer meat 162 00:10:45,559 --> 00:10:48,240 Speaker 1: right away or any kind of meat, Okay, so whatever, 163 00:10:48,800 --> 00:10:51,640 Speaker 1: Like if you if you get an animal and then 164 00:10:53,280 --> 00:10:55,719 Speaker 1: cook it within a couple of hours, it's like it's 165 00:10:55,760 --> 00:10:58,640 Speaker 1: kind of like a divisive taste, Like some people like it, 166 00:10:58,720 --> 00:11:01,880 Speaker 1: some people don't like it. It definitely has a different texture. 167 00:11:03,040 --> 00:11:07,160 Speaker 1: There's something in it that seems almost like a metallic taste. 168 00:11:08,040 --> 00:11:12,360 Speaker 1: That then that's gone in a day or two. Right, 169 00:11:12,520 --> 00:11:16,680 Speaker 1: So we know that once you once you shoot an 170 00:11:16,720 --> 00:11:21,880 Speaker 1: animal and enough time passes, it gets rigid, it gets stiff. 171 00:11:22,280 --> 00:11:27,240 Speaker 1: We call that rigor mortis, right, And that process is 172 00:11:27,280 --> 00:11:30,319 Speaker 1: the process of all of the energy and the muscle 173 00:11:30,440 --> 00:11:35,520 Speaker 1: dissipating once the heart stops meeting and to stop blood flow. 174 00:11:36,320 --> 00:11:41,960 Speaker 1: And that is actually a toughening process. In fact, once 175 00:11:42,160 --> 00:11:44,880 Speaker 1: you get to that point that's about as tough as 176 00:11:44,880 --> 00:11:47,679 Speaker 1: that meat is going to be. We can then hang 177 00:11:47,760 --> 00:11:51,520 Speaker 1: it longer in a cooler outside and cold air, and 178 00:11:51,559 --> 00:11:54,960 Speaker 1: that allows the meat to become more tender. But if 179 00:11:55,040 --> 00:11:58,920 Speaker 1: you get ahold of that meat before it's into rigor mortis, 180 00:11:59,000 --> 00:12:03,280 Speaker 1: and you cut it, that cutting stimulates contraction. You put 181 00:12:03,280 --> 00:12:05,240 Speaker 1: it on a hot pan or a hot grill that 182 00:12:05,400 --> 00:12:10,240 Speaker 1: stimulates that contraction, and you can get meat that's literally 183 00:12:10,280 --> 00:12:13,360 Speaker 1: too tough to chew. You know, every now and then 184 00:12:13,400 --> 00:12:16,960 Speaker 1: somebody says, I love to shoot an animal, then immediately 185 00:12:17,000 --> 00:12:19,559 Speaker 1: go kind of steak and go eat it. To me, 186 00:12:19,679 --> 00:12:24,760 Speaker 1: that's disrespectful of the animal because you are you are 187 00:12:24,760 --> 00:12:28,640 Speaker 1: eating that meat in the worst possible conditions to have 188 00:12:28,720 --> 00:12:32,360 Speaker 1: a good eating experience. If you'll at least let that 189 00:12:32,480 --> 00:12:36,200 Speaker 1: animal go through rigor mortist to get stiff uh, then 190 00:12:36,240 --> 00:12:40,640 Speaker 1: you're gonna have a far better eating experience. Okay, Spencer 191 00:12:40,679 --> 00:12:44,040 Speaker 1: whole type. Alright, I don't understand what you're saying, because 192 00:12:45,160 --> 00:12:49,400 Speaker 1: I would like explain the rigor mortis timeline. I would 193 00:12:49,400 --> 00:12:54,080 Speaker 1: think that when it's in rigor, it's all stiffened up, right, 194 00:12:54,640 --> 00:13:00,640 Speaker 1: But before rigor it has the potential to contract. And 195 00:13:00,960 --> 00:13:06,320 Speaker 1: if you stimulate the animal by um by, by cutting 196 00:13:06,360 --> 00:13:09,240 Speaker 1: the meat, or more importantly, by putting it on a 197 00:13:09,320 --> 00:13:13,320 Speaker 1: hot skillet, it will stiffen up. It will shorten more 198 00:13:13,480 --> 00:13:16,720 Speaker 1: than usual. And if you wait till the animals Okay, 199 00:13:16,720 --> 00:13:20,680 Speaker 1: so let's say there's an animal, whatever you're in a 200 00:13:20,679 --> 00:13:22,760 Speaker 1: slaughterhouse or whatever, you kill an animal. There's an animal 201 00:13:22,760 --> 00:13:24,679 Speaker 1: that just dies, Okay, struck by I don't want to 202 00:13:24,679 --> 00:13:28,079 Speaker 1: say struck by lightning. It just dies. At first, you 203 00:13:28,120 --> 00:13:30,200 Speaker 1: can wiggle it all around, you can grab its arm 204 00:13:30,240 --> 00:13:33,520 Speaker 1: and shake it. Yes, Then a while later you can't. 205 00:13:34,360 --> 00:13:37,840 Speaker 1: Then a while later you can. So during the period 206 00:13:37,880 --> 00:13:42,520 Speaker 1: when it's stiffened up, that is more tender than before 207 00:13:42,559 --> 00:13:46,440 Speaker 1: it stiffens up. If you could cook it without allowing 208 00:13:46,480 --> 00:13:49,840 Speaker 1: it to contract, it would be tender, but you cannot 209 00:13:49,880 --> 00:13:54,800 Speaker 1: do that. The when we cut the steak, we remove 210 00:13:54,840 --> 00:13:58,680 Speaker 1: all the muscle bone connections, and so that muscle is 211 00:13:58,760 --> 00:14:03,359 Speaker 1: free to contract, and so before riggor mortis is complete, 212 00:14:04,080 --> 00:14:08,440 Speaker 1: that is a very dynamic muscle that can that can 213 00:14:08,520 --> 00:14:12,920 Speaker 1: shorten and toughen as you handle the product. Once you 214 00:14:13,200 --> 00:14:16,640 Speaker 1: once it goes into a rigger, then you're at a 215 00:14:16,679 --> 00:14:20,440 Speaker 1: certain level of tenderness. And from that time on beyond 216 00:14:20,760 --> 00:14:24,320 Speaker 1: where rigger happens, it will just get more and more 217 00:14:24,680 --> 00:14:29,000 Speaker 1: the longer you keep it in the cooler. Okay, I'm 218 00:14:29,040 --> 00:14:35,560 Speaker 1: mostly good on that one. So far. Your answers have 219 00:14:35,680 --> 00:14:37,720 Speaker 1: a lot of conviction, which is like what I would 220 00:14:37,720 --> 00:14:42,240 Speaker 1: want out of meta Year's official Meat Scientists, right, But 221 00:14:42,560 --> 00:14:46,160 Speaker 1: I wonder if you lack any confidence in what you're saying, 222 00:14:46,840 --> 00:14:50,160 Speaker 1: um knowing that like a lot of the studies that 223 00:14:50,200 --> 00:14:53,440 Speaker 1: have been done in the literature that you're referencing has 224 00:14:53,440 --> 00:14:57,520 Speaker 1: been on like domestic game cattle that was you know, 225 00:14:58,960 --> 00:15:02,200 Speaker 1: ben dean cicado over the last ten thousand years, versus 226 00:15:02,240 --> 00:15:05,520 Speaker 1: something like a white tailed deer or an elk, a 227 00:15:05,600 --> 00:15:09,400 Speaker 1: wild animal. They're just wired differently. And so my question is, like, 228 00:15:10,000 --> 00:15:13,560 Speaker 1: when they're talking about stress, how is how is do 229 00:15:13,640 --> 00:15:15,800 Speaker 1: we know that stress is the same to a dear 230 00:15:16,560 --> 00:15:19,040 Speaker 1: versus cattle? And then you know all the rest of 231 00:15:19,080 --> 00:15:21,680 Speaker 1: your answers if they lack any confidence, no way that 232 00:15:21,720 --> 00:15:25,520 Speaker 1: we're talking about b versus wild game. You know, muscle 233 00:15:25,800 --> 00:15:29,440 Speaker 1: is muscle. I do not lack confidence on the science 234 00:15:31,320 --> 00:15:36,720 Speaker 1: and and Spencer we could get in an argument. You 235 00:15:36,800 --> 00:15:39,080 Speaker 1: got him all wrong. He's not trying to be pugnacious. 236 00:15:40,160 --> 00:15:43,080 Speaker 1: He's just trying to He's trying to people at home 237 00:15:43,200 --> 00:15:47,000 Speaker 1: or so there's people at home in the future listen 238 00:15:47,000 --> 00:15:49,880 Speaker 1: to this. They're at home thinking, yeah, what does he know? 239 00:15:50,640 --> 00:15:53,600 Speaker 1: We're talking about deer? So he's just trying to clear 240 00:15:53,640 --> 00:15:56,800 Speaker 1: that up. Yes, no, I'm just getting the artime. I 241 00:15:56,840 --> 00:16:01,720 Speaker 1: totally understand you're the point that you're saying, Uh have 242 00:16:01,960 --> 00:16:05,480 Speaker 1: I have studied a variety of different species. I have 243 00:16:05,640 --> 00:16:10,640 Speaker 1: studied product from around the world, and muscle responds the 244 00:16:10,760 --> 00:16:15,040 Speaker 1: same way that some of the timelines are different. And 245 00:16:15,120 --> 00:16:19,880 Speaker 1: so for example, uh, poultry, for example, a chicken, it 246 00:16:19,960 --> 00:16:22,200 Speaker 1: will go into rigor mortis in an hour and a half. 247 00:16:23,440 --> 00:16:27,200 Speaker 1: A beef animal might take eight or ten hours before 248 00:16:27,280 --> 00:16:30,560 Speaker 1: it's fully into rigor mortis. If you take a goat 249 00:16:30,880 --> 00:16:34,400 Speaker 1: or sheep there and there in four to six hours, 250 00:16:34,440 --> 00:16:37,960 Speaker 1: that's about That's about what I'd anticipate for deer as well. 251 00:16:38,400 --> 00:16:42,480 Speaker 1: So the biology of muscle contraction and rigor mortis and 252 00:16:42,520 --> 00:16:46,280 Speaker 1: all of that that's fixed. It's it's gonna happen in 253 00:16:46,440 --> 00:16:50,040 Speaker 1: all all of the different species that we're talking about. 254 00:16:50,640 --> 00:16:53,360 Speaker 1: Now we have to think about most of the time. 255 00:16:53,360 --> 00:16:57,320 Speaker 1: When you think about that beef steer, for example, uh, 256 00:16:57,360 --> 00:17:00,440 Speaker 1: that animal has been neutered, and so it doesn't have 257 00:17:01,040 --> 00:17:06,359 Speaker 1: uh the access to all of those hormones that uh 258 00:17:05,359 --> 00:17:09,199 Speaker 1: uh uh and intact mail would have. And so the 259 00:17:09,320 --> 00:17:13,400 Speaker 1: sensitivity to hormone fluctuations might vary a little bit from 260 00:17:13,440 --> 00:17:17,399 Speaker 1: species to species, um, and depending on what sex or 261 00:17:17,520 --> 00:17:21,120 Speaker 1: gender you're dealing with. But at the end of the day, 262 00:17:21,840 --> 00:17:27,480 Speaker 1: the biology says, um, all muscles go through the same sequence, 263 00:17:27,600 --> 00:17:32,160 Speaker 1: the same kind of process as what I've tried to describe. 264 00:17:32,880 --> 00:17:36,600 Speaker 1: Can you you tell us explain the term I hear 265 00:17:37,160 --> 00:17:40,719 Speaker 1: now and then I thought it was a red cutter, 266 00:17:41,040 --> 00:17:44,840 Speaker 1: but Spencer convinced the otherwise that that's not actually a thing. 267 00:17:45,400 --> 00:17:47,760 Speaker 1: And he was saying do you mean a dark cutter? Like, 268 00:17:48,400 --> 00:17:52,399 Speaker 1: what is a dark cutter? So when we talked about 269 00:17:52,440 --> 00:17:57,119 Speaker 1: the drop in pH that happens normally when rigor occurs, 270 00:17:58,160 --> 00:18:00,920 Speaker 1: that gives us the normal call or that we're used 271 00:18:00,960 --> 00:18:05,840 Speaker 1: to sing inside the muscle. If the pH stays high, 272 00:18:05,960 --> 00:18:09,560 Speaker 1: then the meat is very dark in color. And so 273 00:18:09,760 --> 00:18:13,399 Speaker 1: in beef cattle they call it a dark cutter. Have 274 00:18:13,520 --> 00:18:18,760 Speaker 1: you heard red cutter? I've never heard red cutter until 275 00:18:18,760 --> 00:18:23,359 Speaker 1: about two minutes given up on that one. But it's 276 00:18:23,400 --> 00:18:25,520 Speaker 1: the it's the same way you can get that same 277 00:18:25,560 --> 00:18:29,120 Speaker 1: condition in pork. If pork or stressed for too long, 278 00:18:29,240 --> 00:18:31,560 Speaker 1: you can get in that case, we call it d 279 00:18:31,880 --> 00:18:35,200 Speaker 1: f D dark firm and dry. And so they're all 280 00:18:35,240 --> 00:18:40,160 Speaker 1: just descriptions that you just described wild. You just described 281 00:18:40,240 --> 00:18:44,520 Speaker 1: wild pig, a lot of wild pig pretty well. Yeah. 282 00:18:44,720 --> 00:18:48,560 Speaker 1: So that when you have a dark cutter in the 283 00:18:48,880 --> 00:18:55,000 Speaker 1: in the slaughter world or commercial slaughter world, is it 284 00:18:55,119 --> 00:18:59,200 Speaker 1: attributable to a specific thing that happened to that animal 285 00:18:59,320 --> 00:19:02,800 Speaker 1: or is it just some percentage will come out that way? 286 00:19:03,440 --> 00:19:08,240 Speaker 1: Now that's uh, it is it is a response to 287 00:19:08,840 --> 00:19:14,159 Speaker 1: sustained stress. But just like people, some animals are pretty 288 00:19:14,240 --> 00:19:20,359 Speaker 1: chill and some animals are really tightly wired. The ones 289 00:19:20,400 --> 00:19:23,639 Speaker 1: that are high strung, high stress, those are the ones 290 00:19:23,720 --> 00:19:26,560 Speaker 1: that are gonna be more likely to have the problem. 291 00:19:26,920 --> 00:19:32,440 Speaker 1: So the same set of conditions, whether it's UH duration 292 00:19:32,560 --> 00:19:35,760 Speaker 1: or shipping or hauling or whatever, the same set of 293 00:19:35,760 --> 00:19:39,200 Speaker 1: conditions will have a different impact on every animal depending 294 00:19:39,200 --> 00:19:42,720 Speaker 1: on how that animal responds to the situation. Yeah, I 295 00:19:42,760 --> 00:19:47,520 Speaker 1: got you there. There's a product these guys were selling, 296 00:19:47,600 --> 00:19:50,080 Speaker 1: maybe maybe Spencer, maybe remember the name of it. It was, 297 00:19:50,200 --> 00:19:54,119 Speaker 1: um it was a contraption where you could shoot a 298 00:19:54,160 --> 00:19:58,080 Speaker 1: deer and then run over real quick and hook this 299 00:19:58,119 --> 00:20:00,639 Speaker 1: thing up to your car battery and appit like how 300 00:20:00,720 --> 00:20:08,480 Speaker 1: youse app them in a in a slaughterhouse? Can you explain, uh, 301 00:20:08,800 --> 00:20:11,720 Speaker 1: why they do that in a in a plant? Why 302 00:20:11,760 --> 00:20:15,959 Speaker 1: they's app them with electricity? And then can is that 303 00:20:16,040 --> 00:20:18,960 Speaker 1: even can? Can? Is it realistic that you could replicate 304 00:20:19,040 --> 00:20:20,879 Speaker 1: that in the wild? Whatever the hell you're trying to 305 00:20:20,920 --> 00:20:23,840 Speaker 1: get when you do it? Yeah, So let's let's first 306 00:20:23,880 --> 00:20:28,399 Speaker 1: talk about what happens when you apply electricity. You cause 307 00:20:28,480 --> 00:20:33,119 Speaker 1: the muscle to contract. And and by the way, a 308 00:20:33,160 --> 00:20:36,719 Speaker 1: car battery doesn't work very well because that's a constant, 309 00:20:37,119 --> 00:20:41,720 Speaker 1: continuous electrical field. What you really want is alternating current. 310 00:20:42,119 --> 00:20:47,200 Speaker 1: So the muscle contracts, relaxes, contracts relaxes. As you do that, 311 00:20:48,080 --> 00:20:53,160 Speaker 1: you're using up glycogen, you're producing acid. You are hastening 312 00:20:53,359 --> 00:20:57,879 Speaker 1: the rate at which rigor mortis occurs. That makes me 313 00:20:58,320 --> 00:21:03,959 Speaker 1: more tender. And so from the from the mechanism standpoint, 314 00:21:04,119 --> 00:21:08,120 Speaker 1: it works. Can we create something like that that could 315 00:21:08,119 --> 00:21:10,560 Speaker 1: be used in the field. Again, as long as you 316 00:21:10,640 --> 00:21:16,960 Speaker 1: have pulses of electricity rather than a continuous contraction, then 317 00:21:16,960 --> 00:21:21,280 Speaker 1: you're gonna have, uh, some improvement is possible under that scenario. 318 00:21:21,880 --> 00:21:26,120 Speaker 1: The other thing I would point out is, um, when 319 00:21:26,400 --> 00:21:31,240 Speaker 1: when when we when we shoot a deer, the heart 320 00:21:31,359 --> 00:21:35,840 Speaker 1: stops right and that's how blood is pumped through the body. 321 00:21:36,240 --> 00:21:39,720 Speaker 1: So when the heart is no longer beating, we can't 322 00:21:39,840 --> 00:21:46,600 Speaker 1: pump blood out. So um, some electrical impulse will help 323 00:21:46,680 --> 00:21:50,120 Speaker 1: get a little bit of that blood out of the system. 324 00:21:50,400 --> 00:21:55,280 Speaker 1: And so that's the other side benefit. So what is 325 00:21:55,640 --> 00:21:59,720 Speaker 1: the ideal shot placement for a hunter in the head, 326 00:21:59,760 --> 00:22:02,800 Speaker 1: in the neck, in the heart, in the lungs, in 327 00:22:02,800 --> 00:22:08,520 Speaker 1: the spine, Like what would be your top choice? Yeah, 328 00:22:08,560 --> 00:22:12,240 Speaker 1: so just in terms of meat, just limit this to like, 329 00:22:12,240 --> 00:22:14,680 Speaker 1: in terms of meat quality, and get out of the 330 00:22:14,760 --> 00:22:17,600 Speaker 1: and not bog it down with room for air, right, 331 00:22:17,680 --> 00:22:21,600 Speaker 1: margin for air and all that. I appreciate that because 332 00:22:21,640 --> 00:22:24,000 Speaker 1: that is a bit of the question. At the end 333 00:22:24,000 --> 00:22:26,760 Speaker 1: of the day, you want the animal to go from 334 00:22:26,800 --> 00:22:30,920 Speaker 1: being alive to no longer being alive, and heart shot 335 00:22:30,920 --> 00:22:36,480 Speaker 1: ahead shot, any of those will will affect that same consequence. 336 00:22:36,560 --> 00:22:41,800 Speaker 1: And so from a meat quality standpoint, um, other than 337 00:22:42,200 --> 00:22:44,800 Speaker 1: damage to tissue and those kind of things, there's probably 338 00:22:44,840 --> 00:22:49,919 Speaker 1: not real a real big difference among those locations. Do 339 00:22:49,960 --> 00:22:53,120 Speaker 1: you have you ever seen? Um? I can't really it's 340 00:22:53,119 --> 00:22:57,760 Speaker 1: hard to even explained this. Sometimes when you're when you're 341 00:22:58,520 --> 00:23:03,600 Speaker 1: skinning a deer, you'll find that there's like a you 342 00:23:03,640 --> 00:23:07,600 Speaker 1: know that foam, there's like a foam between the like 343 00:23:07,760 --> 00:23:10,720 Speaker 1: like a bubbly foam that forms between the hide and 344 00:23:10,760 --> 00:23:15,000 Speaker 1: the meat. Right, What is that stuff? Well, that's part 345 00:23:15,000 --> 00:23:19,120 Speaker 1: of that connective tissue that I talked about again, That 346 00:23:19,280 --> 00:23:23,080 Speaker 1: is a protein based structure that goes between the muscles 347 00:23:23,160 --> 00:23:26,800 Speaker 1: and also between the muscle and the hide. Uh, no 348 00:23:26,800 --> 00:23:30,600 Speaker 1: no damage, no risk, no concern on that standpoint. I 349 00:23:31,040 --> 00:23:34,440 Speaker 1: might mention though that um, we we think about, well, 350 00:23:34,480 --> 00:23:37,159 Speaker 1: if you've got that silver tissue on the outside of 351 00:23:37,160 --> 00:23:40,240 Speaker 1: the muscle, you can always trend that off. But if 352 00:23:40,320 --> 00:23:43,800 Speaker 1: you get a microscope and look at that muscle, that 353 00:23:43,880 --> 00:23:48,680 Speaker 1: tissue actually goes throughout the muscle. And and that's why 354 00:23:49,680 --> 00:23:54,360 Speaker 1: muscle from the leg, for example, is inherently less tender 355 00:23:54,760 --> 00:23:57,439 Speaker 1: than a muscle that's from the loin or the backstrap, 356 00:23:57,800 --> 00:24:01,920 Speaker 1: because those are muscles of support versus the legs, big 357 00:24:02,000 --> 00:24:06,600 Speaker 1: muscles of locomotion. They need more of that connective tissue. So, 358 00:24:06,640 --> 00:24:08,879 Speaker 1: by and large, if you've gotta you've got a piece 359 00:24:08,880 --> 00:24:10,760 Speaker 1: of meat with a lot of connective tissue in it, 360 00:24:11,240 --> 00:24:16,040 Speaker 1: you know, uh, slow roasting, uh, putting in a pot 361 00:24:16,040 --> 00:24:18,240 Speaker 1: and stewart that kind of a thing is how we 362 00:24:18,320 --> 00:24:21,320 Speaker 1: tend to cook that. Whereas you get the muscles that 363 00:24:21,400 --> 00:24:25,720 Speaker 1: don't have very much connective tissue that tenderlins, the backstraps, 364 00:24:25,960 --> 00:24:28,600 Speaker 1: all of that. We can make sticks out of those, 365 00:24:28,640 --> 00:24:30,359 Speaker 1: throw them in a skellet throw them on the grill, 366 00:24:30,440 --> 00:24:35,119 Speaker 1: and have a very nice eating experience. What a what 367 00:24:35,280 --> 00:24:38,440 Speaker 1: happens when well, first let me ask you this. Have 368 00:24:38,720 --> 00:24:44,040 Speaker 1: you have you had exposure to to your your possiverous 369 00:24:44,160 --> 00:24:48,200 Speaker 1: uh counterparts like fish, fish meat? Is that a thing 370 00:24:49,000 --> 00:24:51,320 Speaker 1: I'm not much on fish meat. I can't tell you 371 00:24:51,359 --> 00:24:53,600 Speaker 1: too much about that. Are there people that specialize Are 372 00:24:53,600 --> 00:24:57,040 Speaker 1: there people in the meat science word to specialize in fish? Yes, 373 00:24:57,200 --> 00:25:00,359 Speaker 1: there are people specialize in fish. People specialize in pork 374 00:25:00,880 --> 00:25:04,600 Speaker 1: or beef or poultry. Uh, yeah, we're we can be 375 00:25:04,680 --> 00:25:08,800 Speaker 1: a pretty specialized group. So because this one, this question 376 00:25:08,840 --> 00:25:11,440 Speaker 1: about bleeding, let's just let's just if you know about 377 00:25:11,440 --> 00:25:13,360 Speaker 1: the process of bleeding fish, you can speak to that. 378 00:25:13,400 --> 00:25:19,239 Speaker 1: But what are you trying to achieve when what are 379 00:25:19,240 --> 00:25:21,920 Speaker 1: you trying to achieve when you bleed something? When people 380 00:25:21,960 --> 00:25:24,200 Speaker 1: talk about like needing to bleed it out, like, what, 381 00:25:24,200 --> 00:25:27,960 Speaker 1: what are you really getting? That's that's a that's an 382 00:25:28,000 --> 00:25:31,640 Speaker 1: awesome question because a lot of people run around saying, 383 00:25:31,640 --> 00:25:36,040 Speaker 1: there's all this blood in the meat um muscle, which 384 00:25:36,080 --> 00:25:45,600 Speaker 1: is true. Muscle is sent water, right, So all you 385 00:25:45,680 --> 00:25:48,400 Speaker 1: have to think about what's the function of blood. And 386 00:25:48,920 --> 00:25:51,880 Speaker 1: one of the main things is we carry oxygen through 387 00:25:51,920 --> 00:25:56,800 Speaker 1: blood right on hemoglobin molecules inside the meat is a 388 00:25:56,840 --> 00:26:01,960 Speaker 1: molecule that also binds oxygen, bind better than hemoglobin actually, 389 00:26:02,080 --> 00:26:05,240 Speaker 1: so it draws the oxygen out of the blood into 390 00:26:05,280 --> 00:26:09,520 Speaker 1: the meat and it binds to mild globin. And so 391 00:26:09,960 --> 00:26:12,200 Speaker 1: when you look at meat, and that meat is red 392 00:26:12,320 --> 00:26:16,440 Speaker 1: in color. That's myad globe. There's very very little hemo 393 00:26:16,480 --> 00:26:20,320 Speaker 1: globe and very little blood in the meat itself. But 394 00:26:20,440 --> 00:26:24,600 Speaker 1: because meat water, everybody goes, oh my gosh, look at 395 00:26:24,600 --> 00:26:27,480 Speaker 1: all the blood that's in that meat. But most of 396 00:26:27,600 --> 00:26:31,800 Speaker 1: that is myo globin and water that's inside the muscle. 397 00:26:32,200 --> 00:26:34,720 Speaker 1: So when you bleed, you're just trying to get rid 398 00:26:34,760 --> 00:26:39,920 Speaker 1: of the bloods that's there. And probably the biggest real 399 00:26:40,040 --> 00:26:44,040 Speaker 1: reason for that is um It's a great nutrient for 400 00:26:44,240 --> 00:26:47,960 Speaker 1: bacterial growth and spoilage, and so we try and remove 401 00:26:48,080 --> 00:26:49,880 Speaker 1: that so that we don't have to deal with it. 402 00:26:51,119 --> 00:26:57,399 Speaker 1: You're saying that blood in the meat is lends itself 403 00:26:57,440 --> 00:27:02,560 Speaker 1: to quicker spoilage. Not necessarily a meatles meats are pretty 404 00:27:02,560 --> 00:27:09,560 Speaker 1: good bacterial medium for growth anyway, but typically in in uh, 405 00:27:09,640 --> 00:27:13,439 Speaker 1: in commercial animals, we we remove the blood just so 406 00:27:13,520 --> 00:27:15,840 Speaker 1: that we don't have to deal with that as we 407 00:27:15,920 --> 00:27:18,600 Speaker 1: go down the line. Otherwise it tends to drip and 408 00:27:18,640 --> 00:27:20,760 Speaker 1: get all over everything. Oh my god. You so once 409 00:27:20,800 --> 00:27:23,920 Speaker 1: it's out it becomes problematic. Yeah, like you don't you 410 00:27:23,960 --> 00:27:28,080 Speaker 1: don't want it around? Yeah? Yes, I want to back 411 00:27:28,160 --> 00:27:31,880 Speaker 1: up to dark cutters. Real quick um red cutters. Yeah, yeah, 412 00:27:32,200 --> 00:27:36,480 Speaker 1: Steve's red cutters. Like the obvious stressors are like taking 413 00:27:36,480 --> 00:27:39,720 Speaker 1: a long time to die, uh, and like not eating. 414 00:27:39,760 --> 00:27:42,600 Speaker 1: But what are some of the not so obvious stressors 415 00:27:42,600 --> 00:27:46,120 Speaker 1: that hunters wouldn't think of? Like is weather something that 416 00:27:46,240 --> 00:27:48,320 Speaker 1: would stress out an animal and make their meat worse, 417 00:27:48,520 --> 00:27:54,680 Speaker 1: or like interacting with foreign animals things like that. Yes, Uh, 418 00:27:54,840 --> 00:27:58,080 Speaker 1: it's a really good question, Spencer, And you're absolutely right. 419 00:27:58,280 --> 00:28:02,000 Speaker 1: Just think about you or write. Anything that causes us 420 00:28:02,080 --> 00:28:06,960 Speaker 1: stress causes that animal stress as well. And and and 421 00:28:07,080 --> 00:28:09,720 Speaker 1: so part of that has to do with physical stress 422 00:28:10,080 --> 00:28:15,080 Speaker 1: if it's cold and you're trying to stay warm, for example, Um, 423 00:28:15,119 --> 00:28:18,400 Speaker 1: if you're we also have social stress, right you mix 424 00:28:18,960 --> 00:28:21,720 Speaker 1: mix people up in an elevator and everybody gets kind 425 00:28:21,720 --> 00:28:24,560 Speaker 1: of quiet and awkward and and and that kind of 426 00:28:24,600 --> 00:28:29,520 Speaker 1: stress also creates circumstances or situations that can impact the animal. 427 00:28:30,080 --> 00:28:33,760 Speaker 1: In the case of females, if they're cycling, then that 428 00:28:33,840 --> 00:28:38,080 Speaker 1: hormonal cycle can create stress as well. That draws glycogen 429 00:28:38,200 --> 00:28:45,520 Speaker 1: out of the muscles. Uh. It's that's a really tough 430 00:28:45,600 --> 00:28:51,920 Speaker 1: question to it's. Uh, it's it just creates enough different uh, 431 00:28:52,120 --> 00:28:56,720 Speaker 1: physiological responses to those hormones that that animal is going 432 00:28:56,760 --> 00:28:59,080 Speaker 1: to need more energy and it's going to draw against 433 00:28:59,080 --> 00:29:02,320 Speaker 1: that glycogen's oars to be able to supply that sort 434 00:29:02,320 --> 00:29:06,120 Speaker 1: of like nervous energy if you think of it. So 435 00:29:06,760 --> 00:29:09,880 Speaker 1: you never hear like hunters and fishermen complain about a 436 00:29:09,960 --> 00:29:13,320 Speaker 1: spawning fish tasting bad though, or strutting turkey or anything 437 00:29:13,360 --> 00:29:16,520 Speaker 1: like that. Is it just because like we're really ignorant, 438 00:29:16,840 --> 00:29:22,000 Speaker 1: or is it less likely to happen in poultry and fish? Uh? 439 00:29:22,160 --> 00:29:24,760 Speaker 1: I don't know about fish and poultry. It can still 440 00:29:24,800 --> 00:29:29,200 Speaker 1: happen in poultry, but chances are that we're that's kind 441 00:29:29,200 --> 00:29:32,200 Speaker 1: of what we expect. It's what we're used to seeing. 442 00:29:33,000 --> 00:29:37,320 Speaker 1: And the best example I can give you is UH, 443 00:29:37,440 --> 00:29:43,040 Speaker 1: in poultry, commercial poultry, once they're harvested and you're removed 444 00:29:43,080 --> 00:29:46,640 Speaker 1: all the all the viscera, then you want to chill 445 00:29:46,760 --> 00:29:51,000 Speaker 1: that carcass down quickly. And the way that happens in 446 00:29:51,080 --> 00:29:55,360 Speaker 1: the industry is you take the poultry carcass and put 447 00:29:55,400 --> 00:29:59,440 Speaker 1: it in an ice water bath. Now that cold shock, 448 00:29:59,680 --> 00:30:04,160 Speaker 1: but or the muscle is in rigor causes immediate contraction. 449 00:30:05,400 --> 00:30:09,520 Speaker 1: In comparison, you could also chill that carcass by putting 450 00:30:09,600 --> 00:30:13,080 Speaker 1: it in a refrigerated cooler. And so you can go 451 00:30:13,120 --> 00:30:15,360 Speaker 1: to the grocery store now and there are there is 452 00:30:15,560 --> 00:30:21,200 Speaker 1: air chilled poultry and there's regular commercial poultry. And I'll 453 00:30:21,200 --> 00:30:24,520 Speaker 1: tell you there's a profound difference in tenderness between those two, 454 00:30:24,680 --> 00:30:29,480 Speaker 1: which the air chilled is not as contracted and is 455 00:30:29,520 --> 00:30:33,480 Speaker 1: far more tender than what we traditionally do with poultry. 456 00:30:33,640 --> 00:30:35,720 Speaker 1: Are these labeled like things that we can identify in 457 00:30:35,720 --> 00:30:42,040 Speaker 1: the grocery store? Uh? Typically the air chilled poultry is 458 00:30:42,160 --> 00:30:46,160 Speaker 1: labeled that way. The others are not their traditional normal 459 00:30:46,680 --> 00:30:50,000 Speaker 1: commodity product. If you had to look at what you 460 00:30:50,120 --> 00:30:54,320 Speaker 1: know is done with well, I'm gonna ask you an 461 00:30:54,320 --> 00:30:58,760 Speaker 1: equivalent question to this around around red meat, but knowing 462 00:30:58,800 --> 00:31:04,640 Speaker 1: what's done in uh poultry slaughter facility. Okay, what would 463 00:31:04,640 --> 00:31:08,680 Speaker 1: be the closest approximation that a person could achieve if 464 00:31:08,720 --> 00:31:13,840 Speaker 1: they're hunting pheasants or hunting turkeys and they have a 465 00:31:13,880 --> 00:31:16,840 Speaker 1: pickup truck with them, Like, what would what would you 466 00:31:16,880 --> 00:31:19,760 Speaker 1: do upon what? Like? What would you do in terms 467 00:31:19,840 --> 00:31:27,000 Speaker 1: of a timeline and tools in order to replicate best practices? Yeah? So, Uh, 468 00:31:27,400 --> 00:31:31,479 Speaker 1: there's there's two big things. I think one is you 469 00:31:31,520 --> 00:31:35,560 Speaker 1: want to get rid of the guts UH as soon 470 00:31:35,640 --> 00:31:40,160 Speaker 1: as possible. That's a that's a food safety issue. UM. 471 00:31:40,200 --> 00:31:44,360 Speaker 1: If we have uh feces or fecal material spreading around 472 00:31:44,400 --> 00:31:47,520 Speaker 1: the inside of that body cavity. The sooner you get 473 00:31:47,560 --> 00:31:50,040 Speaker 1: all that out, the better off you are. That's number one. 474 00:31:50,560 --> 00:31:55,200 Speaker 1: Number two is and we've kind of touched on this earlier, 475 00:31:55,320 --> 00:31:58,680 Speaker 1: but you just give it time to go into a 476 00:31:58,800 --> 00:32:01,560 Speaker 1: rigor mortis. But or you do much more with it 477 00:32:01,960 --> 00:32:05,360 Speaker 1: and so you don't have to plunge it in ice water. 478 00:32:05,800 --> 00:32:08,880 Speaker 1: You can allow it to go to rigger um for 479 00:32:08,920 --> 00:32:13,760 Speaker 1: an hour or so once you've removed the viscera, and 480 00:32:13,760 --> 00:32:17,920 Speaker 1: and you'll have a fine eating experience. It's when we go, 481 00:32:18,120 --> 00:32:21,960 Speaker 1: I think too fast. It's when we try and and 482 00:32:21,960 --> 00:32:25,760 Speaker 1: and you know, get the animal and stuff it with snow, 483 00:32:25,880 --> 00:32:29,000 Speaker 1: or we get the animal and and and and throw 484 00:32:29,040 --> 00:32:31,840 Speaker 1: it in the skillet too quickly. That's where we get 485 00:32:31,920 --> 00:32:35,240 Speaker 1: quality problems being created. And you're saying it's bad to 486 00:32:35,280 --> 00:32:38,479 Speaker 1: stuff with snow. Most of the time you don't need 487 00:32:38,560 --> 00:32:42,160 Speaker 1: to do that. And if you're if you if you 488 00:32:42,240 --> 00:32:45,880 Speaker 1: got to say a deer for example, and let's assume 489 00:32:45,920 --> 00:32:49,560 Speaker 1: it's a heart shot as opposed to a head shot. 490 00:32:50,080 --> 00:32:55,840 Speaker 1: So you've disrupted the internal organs, right and um, and 491 00:32:55,960 --> 00:32:58,480 Speaker 1: so the best thing you can do from a food 492 00:32:58,480 --> 00:33:01,720 Speaker 1: safety standpoint is to remove all those organs from the 493 00:33:01,760 --> 00:33:04,760 Speaker 1: inside of the animal. Now, once you've done that, there's 494 00:33:04,760 --> 00:33:08,160 Speaker 1: a chance there's some fecal material in there. And so 495 00:33:08,480 --> 00:33:11,080 Speaker 1: what happens when you stuff it with snow You've just 496 00:33:11,320 --> 00:33:14,920 Speaker 1: smeared all that around, and as the snow melts, you've 497 00:33:15,000 --> 00:33:18,880 Speaker 1: smeared that bacteria around on the inside. The fact is 498 00:33:18,960 --> 00:33:23,760 Speaker 1: the animals going to chill out at a reasonable rate anyhow. Um. 499 00:33:23,800 --> 00:33:26,959 Speaker 1: I'm now, Now, if you're dealing with a very large 500 00:33:27,040 --> 00:33:30,960 Speaker 1: animal and it's warm outside, um, you know it'd be 501 00:33:31,040 --> 00:33:33,479 Speaker 1: nicer if you could cool that off a little quicker. 502 00:33:33,520 --> 00:33:35,160 Speaker 1: But you're not going to have snow around to do 503 00:33:35,200 --> 00:33:38,600 Speaker 1: that under that circumstance anyway. So I don't think it's 504 00:33:38,600 --> 00:33:43,520 Speaker 1: necessary to try and accelerate the chilling rate of animals 505 00:33:43,800 --> 00:33:46,360 Speaker 1: as long as you deal with the meat in a 506 00:33:46,600 --> 00:33:50,160 Speaker 1: timely matter after it's hand rigor mortis. So are you 507 00:33:50,200 --> 00:33:52,920 Speaker 1: saying there's such things freezing something too soon? Like if 508 00:33:52,960 --> 00:33:55,400 Speaker 1: you shut a duck at nine am and you had 509 00:33:55,440 --> 00:33:59,960 Speaker 1: it breast and gutted by ten am and going to freeze. 510 00:34:00,120 --> 00:34:04,640 Speaker 1: Is that too quick? Completely? In fact, we actually had 511 00:34:04,640 --> 00:34:07,840 Speaker 1: a had a former student in our department who went 512 00:34:07,880 --> 00:34:12,360 Speaker 1: to work in Alaska and they're harvesting reindeer when it 513 00:34:12,440 --> 00:34:16,279 Speaker 1: was twenty below outside. And the problem they had is 514 00:34:16,320 --> 00:34:20,000 Speaker 1: they they harvest the deer, lay it on the ground, 515 00:34:20,120 --> 00:34:23,279 Speaker 1: and in twenty minutes it would be frozen. Now what 516 00:34:23,440 --> 00:34:28,440 Speaker 1: happens is when that when the meat thaws, then you 517 00:34:28,560 --> 00:34:33,320 Speaker 1: get massive muscle contraction, way more than normal. So absolutely 518 00:34:33,520 --> 00:34:36,719 Speaker 1: too fast to the freezer is not a good thing. 519 00:34:37,120 --> 00:34:39,600 Speaker 1: The other dimension of that spencer that you ask about, 520 00:34:39,640 --> 00:34:43,400 Speaker 1: which is interesting, I think, is that, uh, it's better 521 00:34:43,520 --> 00:34:46,960 Speaker 1: if you can go into rigor with the muscles attached 522 00:34:47,120 --> 00:34:52,520 Speaker 1: to the bones, because that, to some extent that limits contraction. 523 00:34:52,880 --> 00:34:56,880 Speaker 1: If you remove all those connections of the muscle to 524 00:34:56,920 --> 00:34:59,839 Speaker 1: the bone, that muscle is free to shorten up as 525 00:35:00,080 --> 00:35:02,799 Speaker 1: much as it wants to. That's really interesting because there's 526 00:35:02,840 --> 00:35:11,200 Speaker 1: a there's a real debate in the hunting world around 527 00:35:11,400 --> 00:35:14,360 Speaker 1: um things like things like called the you know, the 528 00:35:14,520 --> 00:35:18,560 Speaker 1: the gutless method, or you know, various ideas around deboning 529 00:35:18,640 --> 00:35:20,640 Speaker 1: things right away in order to reduce weight when you 530 00:35:20,680 --> 00:35:22,880 Speaker 1: have to carry it a long way, and um, a 531 00:35:22,920 --> 00:35:26,120 Speaker 1: lot of people will and I've certainly done it myself, 532 00:35:27,480 --> 00:35:32,480 Speaker 1: shoot an animal and then immediately debone at all and 533 00:35:32,520 --> 00:35:36,200 Speaker 1: put into bags. And I always view the con of it. 534 00:35:36,480 --> 00:35:38,840 Speaker 1: The con to doing this would be that it just 535 00:35:38,880 --> 00:35:41,879 Speaker 1: seems to create a harder time to sort it out 536 00:35:41,920 --> 00:35:45,160 Speaker 1: when you get home. It makes more surface area for 537 00:35:45,200 --> 00:35:48,120 Speaker 1: there to be hair and for it to get dirty. 538 00:35:48,360 --> 00:35:51,080 Speaker 1: But I never heard anybody talk about that it could 539 00:35:51,239 --> 00:35:54,719 Speaker 1: even have a negative impact on the end quality in 540 00:35:54,800 --> 00:36:00,520 Speaker 1: terms of toughness tenderness. Well, and that is in fact 541 00:36:00,520 --> 00:36:02,799 Speaker 1: the case that if you if you bone it out 542 00:36:02,840 --> 00:36:07,120 Speaker 1: while it's hot, you can compromise the contraction and therefore 543 00:36:07,239 --> 00:36:10,440 Speaker 1: the tenderness. But you know, you've got to be practical. 544 00:36:10,640 --> 00:36:15,520 Speaker 1: You can quarter the animal, for example, and most of 545 00:36:15,600 --> 00:36:20,600 Speaker 1: the muscle bone attachments are still retained under that scenario. 546 00:36:21,120 --> 00:36:23,439 Speaker 1: But if you're gonna take your knife and separate every 547 00:36:23,520 --> 00:36:26,439 Speaker 1: muscle and and open it up so there are no 548 00:36:26,560 --> 00:36:30,920 Speaker 1: connections at all, uh that I would say the longer 549 00:36:31,000 --> 00:36:33,640 Speaker 1: you can wait to do that, the better off you're 550 00:36:33,640 --> 00:36:36,520 Speaker 1: gonna be, because you'll be closer to rigor mortis when 551 00:36:36,560 --> 00:36:39,000 Speaker 1: you get to that point, Spencer, was that you talking 552 00:36:39,040 --> 00:36:43,960 Speaker 1: all about everybody hangs ther deer up wrong? Yes, tell 553 00:36:44,000 --> 00:36:47,759 Speaker 1: him about that. So I've I've heard that like a 554 00:36:47,880 --> 00:36:51,800 Speaker 1: good steakhouse or a good butcher will do the tender 555 00:36:51,840 --> 00:36:55,360 Speaker 1: stretch method where they hang a car like a typical 556 00:36:55,920 --> 00:36:58,960 Speaker 1: deer hunter go kill a deer, they skin it out, 557 00:36:58,960 --> 00:37:01,319 Speaker 1: and then they hang it by the achilles. So it's 558 00:37:01,360 --> 00:37:04,239 Speaker 1: like as long as it possibly can be. But I've 559 00:37:04,239 --> 00:37:06,799 Speaker 1: heard that the tender stretch method is preferred by the 560 00:37:06,840 --> 00:37:11,520 Speaker 1: beef industry where you basically put these hooks in their 561 00:37:11,520 --> 00:37:15,880 Speaker 1: pelvis and then you allow their back hands to relax 562 00:37:16,000 --> 00:37:18,279 Speaker 1: and hang it more of a ninety degree angle. Is 563 00:37:18,320 --> 00:37:23,440 Speaker 1: that something that you hear that you promote it. It 564 00:37:23,920 --> 00:37:28,520 Speaker 1: will definitely give a measurable improvement in tenderness if you 565 00:37:28,719 --> 00:37:32,200 Speaker 1: use that method. It is not used in the US 566 00:37:32,880 --> 00:37:37,520 Speaker 1: meat industry at all, but there are other countries that do. 567 00:37:37,840 --> 00:37:41,480 Speaker 1: Is it an efficiency thing? Now, Well, it's what we're 568 00:37:41,600 --> 00:37:43,879 Speaker 1: used to write. We know what the cuts look like, 569 00:37:44,040 --> 00:37:45,960 Speaker 1: we know what to expect all the rest of that, 570 00:37:46,480 --> 00:37:48,840 Speaker 1: and and so if you're going to go to a 571 00:37:48,880 --> 00:37:53,000 Speaker 1: tender stretch strategy, it's a it's a whole different way 572 00:37:53,040 --> 00:37:58,040 Speaker 1: of uh separating that carcass and of pieces, and it's 573 00:37:58,080 --> 00:38:00,680 Speaker 1: just not something the U s ander Steer showing any 574 00:38:00,719 --> 00:38:04,920 Speaker 1: interest in doing by and large certainly on the beat side. Um, 575 00:38:05,320 --> 00:38:08,080 Speaker 1: the beef in the United States pretty tender compared to 576 00:38:08,120 --> 00:38:10,840 Speaker 1: around the world. But I have been to places around 577 00:38:10,880 --> 00:38:16,160 Speaker 1: the world where the entire cooler is hung through tender stretch. Interesting. Sorry, 578 00:38:16,200 --> 00:38:18,640 Speaker 1: go ahead, I'm sorry. I've always heard that it's an 579 00:38:18,680 --> 00:38:22,000 Speaker 1: issue of being efficient. When you hang something by the achilles, 580 00:38:22,640 --> 00:38:24,360 Speaker 1: you can fit a lot more of these things in 581 00:38:24,400 --> 00:38:27,120 Speaker 1: the cooler than if you hang them by the pelvis, 582 00:38:27,200 --> 00:38:29,640 Speaker 1: and then they're they're taking up a lot more room. 583 00:38:29,880 --> 00:38:32,480 Speaker 1: Side by side it would be about the same. But 584 00:38:33,360 --> 00:38:37,960 Speaker 1: as that hind leg falls forward, then you're the distance 585 00:38:38,080 --> 00:38:40,960 Speaker 1: between the animals would have to be have to be 586 00:38:41,680 --> 00:38:44,000 Speaker 1: a little bit greater in order to have room for that. 587 00:38:45,320 --> 00:38:48,080 Speaker 1: It might be interesting part of that, part of that 588 00:38:48,120 --> 00:38:54,080 Speaker 1: whole tender stretched method was devised because uh, in New 589 00:38:54,160 --> 00:38:56,800 Speaker 1: Zealand they were shipped this is years ago. They were 590 00:38:56,840 --> 00:39:01,240 Speaker 1: they were freeze lambs. Uh. They would slaughter lambs, freeze 591 00:39:01,239 --> 00:39:05,359 Speaker 1: the carcasses and ship them overseas. And they discovered that 592 00:39:05,360 --> 00:39:09,479 Speaker 1: that freezing before rigor mortis made really really tough meat, 593 00:39:09,920 --> 00:39:13,359 Speaker 1: and so one way to counteract that was to use 594 00:39:13,480 --> 00:39:16,760 Speaker 1: that tender stretched method or a similar kind of hanging 595 00:39:17,080 --> 00:39:20,680 Speaker 1: where the legs fall forward. That if you think about that, 596 00:39:20,680 --> 00:39:24,240 Speaker 1: that causes the muscles of the leg on the back 597 00:39:24,280 --> 00:39:28,200 Speaker 1: side to stretch more. And so because they're stretched more, 598 00:39:28,520 --> 00:39:31,719 Speaker 1: they're less contracted. But on the inside of the leg, 599 00:39:31,840 --> 00:39:36,680 Speaker 1: those muscles are actually more contracted, right, And so it's 600 00:39:36,719 --> 00:39:41,400 Speaker 1: beneficial for some muscles and not so beneficial for other muscles. 601 00:39:51,719 --> 00:39:53,560 Speaker 1: I want to tell you a story of guy told 602 00:39:53,560 --> 00:39:56,040 Speaker 1: me and and I want you to tell me he's dead, 603 00:39:56,360 --> 00:39:57,680 Speaker 1: So I want to tell me if I'm getting his 604 00:39:57,719 --> 00:40:01,160 Speaker 1: story right. Yea. I used to live next story to 605 00:40:01,200 --> 00:40:05,279 Speaker 1: a guy in Miles City, Montana. Who he was. He 606 00:40:05,320 --> 00:40:08,160 Speaker 1: was in his nineties when I knew him, and he 607 00:40:08,200 --> 00:40:11,680 Speaker 1: was telling me that his family in Montana, they used 608 00:40:11,719 --> 00:40:16,480 Speaker 1: to raise turkeys, and they would raise turkeys around they 609 00:40:16,680 --> 00:40:20,640 Speaker 1: would time it out in order to be selling Thanksgiving turkeys. 610 00:40:22,160 --> 00:40:26,960 Speaker 1: They were shipping these turkeys by rail from Montana to Minneapolis. 611 00:40:27,680 --> 00:40:29,400 Speaker 1: And he told me that they would raise the turkey 612 00:40:29,480 --> 00:40:33,960 Speaker 1: up and then cut off its food supply so that 613 00:40:34,040 --> 00:40:37,920 Speaker 1: it's digestive track emptied completely and they would only give 614 00:40:37,960 --> 00:40:44,000 Speaker 1: it water. Then they would kill the turkeys, pluck them 615 00:40:44,239 --> 00:40:49,000 Speaker 1: and not got them because that led to spoilage quicker, 616 00:40:50,000 --> 00:40:53,520 Speaker 1: and that they would pack these turkeys into barrels, guts 617 00:40:53,520 --> 00:40:55,840 Speaker 1: in them but no food in their system, and ship 618 00:40:55,880 --> 00:40:58,839 Speaker 1: them by rail to Minneapolis for people to eat on Thanksgiving. 619 00:40:59,560 --> 00:41:02,480 Speaker 1: This is an I was gonna say, this was a 620 00:41:02,480 --> 00:41:07,680 Speaker 1: while ago. Does that make any sense? Well, part of 621 00:41:07,719 --> 00:41:14,160 Speaker 1: it does. Um. Actually, if you think about ruminants right, uh, 622 00:41:14,600 --> 00:41:17,719 Speaker 1: they have a lot of gut fill and so it 623 00:41:17,760 --> 00:41:20,960 Speaker 1: takes a long time for that to get gone. So 624 00:41:21,239 --> 00:41:24,680 Speaker 1: you could cut off feed source to an animal for 625 00:41:24,760 --> 00:41:29,080 Speaker 1: a while, um, you know, twelve twenty four hours or whatever, 626 00:41:29,600 --> 00:41:34,320 Speaker 1: and biologically that animal doesn't know it. It maybe starts 627 00:41:34,320 --> 00:41:37,440 Speaker 1: to get at hungry, but but biologically it's got all 628 00:41:37,480 --> 00:41:41,680 Speaker 1: the energy and everything else that needs water. Access to 629 00:41:41,760 --> 00:41:45,240 Speaker 1: water is huge with If you do not have access 630 00:41:45,280 --> 00:41:52,360 Speaker 1: to water, that whole dark cutting condition becomes evident more quickly. 631 00:41:53,239 --> 00:41:56,560 Speaker 1: Access to water is pretty important. And so I could 632 00:41:56,760 --> 00:42:00,440 Speaker 1: fathom a place where you don't feed the turkeys and 633 00:42:00,520 --> 00:42:06,400 Speaker 1: you have less gut fill. Um that probably um minimizes 634 00:42:06,560 --> 00:42:10,960 Speaker 1: a little bit the risk. But to be honest with you, UM, 635 00:42:11,000 --> 00:42:15,080 Speaker 1: I would highly recommend that they be they have the 636 00:42:15,120 --> 00:42:18,520 Speaker 1: guts removed, as opposed to its zing them down and 637 00:42:18,640 --> 00:42:21,919 Speaker 1: leaving the guts in there. Thereafter, after the animal dies, 638 00:42:22,000 --> 00:42:26,600 Speaker 1: there is migration. I've gut bacteria that comes through the 639 00:42:27,000 --> 00:42:30,320 Speaker 1: comes through the walls of the intestines into the rest 640 00:42:30,360 --> 00:42:33,640 Speaker 1: of the body cavity, And of course I sing that 641 00:42:33,719 --> 00:42:35,680 Speaker 1: would slow it down and all the rest of that, 642 00:42:35,719 --> 00:42:39,440 Speaker 1: But why run the risk right, Just remove it and 643 00:42:39,440 --> 00:42:44,439 Speaker 1: and let that natural process of cooling and aging take 644 00:42:44,520 --> 00:42:47,799 Speaker 1: place after that. That's one other thing I want to 645 00:42:47,840 --> 00:42:51,640 Speaker 1: mention Steve is that, UM, we've talked a lot about 646 00:42:51,760 --> 00:42:56,080 Speaker 1: what happens up until rigor mortis, but I would sure 647 00:42:56,120 --> 00:43:01,880 Speaker 1: want your listeners to understand that after grigor mortis, then 648 00:43:01,920 --> 00:43:05,799 Speaker 1: as we store that meat in a refrigerator, that meat 649 00:43:05,840 --> 00:43:08,920 Speaker 1: is going to gradually get more and more tender because 650 00:43:08,960 --> 00:43:12,239 Speaker 1: of those insigns that are naturally in the meat. So 651 00:43:12,400 --> 00:43:15,799 Speaker 1: I'm thinking back on your turkey question about the guy 652 00:43:15,840 --> 00:43:18,600 Speaker 1: with the pickup who shoots the turkey, is what should 653 00:43:18,600 --> 00:43:23,480 Speaker 1: he do? Uh? Waiting to freeze that meat, even if 654 00:43:23,520 --> 00:43:26,040 Speaker 1: it's a day or two, is going to make that 655 00:43:26,120 --> 00:43:30,560 Speaker 1: meat more tender and beef we've see that that muscle 656 00:43:30,719 --> 00:43:35,880 Speaker 1: improves in tenderness for about seven to ten days. After 657 00:43:36,000 --> 00:43:38,800 Speaker 1: that it still improves, but at a much lower rate. 658 00:43:40,120 --> 00:43:43,280 Speaker 1: And so it would be you would get far better 659 00:43:43,400 --> 00:43:47,040 Speaker 1: product if you age that beef two weeks before you 660 00:43:47,440 --> 00:43:51,320 Speaker 1: may cut it into steaks in the case of deer 661 00:43:51,480 --> 00:43:54,520 Speaker 1: or whatever, even if it's there or four days, that's 662 00:43:54,520 --> 00:43:57,480 Speaker 1: gonna be better than cutting it and putting it in 663 00:43:57,480 --> 00:44:01,720 Speaker 1: the fraser immediately. Similar to see turkey question talking about 664 00:44:01,719 --> 00:44:05,480 Speaker 1: how those turkeys were cut off from food. Um, the 665 00:44:05,560 --> 00:44:08,200 Speaker 1: guys in my hometown of South Dakota that teach me 666 00:44:08,239 --> 00:44:11,080 Speaker 1: how to clean snapping turtle, they all did the same 667 00:44:11,160 --> 00:44:13,359 Speaker 1: thing where they catch a snapping turtle and then they 668 00:44:13,400 --> 00:44:15,960 Speaker 1: put it in a tank with water and they leave 669 00:44:16,000 --> 00:44:18,279 Speaker 1: it in there for a week, and they say that 670 00:44:18,320 --> 00:44:20,680 Speaker 1: it's cleansing its system. You don't want to eat them 671 00:44:20,760 --> 00:44:23,080 Speaker 1: right away, the meat won't be any good, and so 672 00:44:23,200 --> 00:44:25,680 Speaker 1: all they have for that week is this few inches 673 00:44:25,719 --> 00:44:29,000 Speaker 1: of water that they're in. Is that a really bad practice? 674 00:44:30,920 --> 00:44:36,200 Speaker 1: I gotta tell you, I don't know anything about Uh. 675 00:44:36,320 --> 00:44:38,000 Speaker 1: You know what it would do, is it would it 676 00:44:38,040 --> 00:44:40,920 Speaker 1: would it would remove food from the g I tractor. 677 00:44:40,920 --> 00:44:45,480 Speaker 1: Of course, Uh is that good or bad? I don't know. 678 00:44:45,719 --> 00:44:52,359 Speaker 1: I my instinct is it seems a little excessive, but um, possibly, Kart, 679 00:44:52,400 --> 00:44:56,160 Speaker 1: I want you to find us a snapping turtle meat. 680 00:44:56,880 --> 00:44:59,839 Speaker 1: Christ do you have any colleagues of yours? Are you've been? 681 00:45:00,680 --> 00:45:03,560 Speaker 1: No one did a dissertation on snappers, not that I'm 682 00:45:03,600 --> 00:45:06,120 Speaker 1: aware of. But that's that's out of practice you would 683 00:45:06,120 --> 00:45:09,880 Speaker 1: ever do with a cow or a turkey, That's correct. 684 00:45:09,920 --> 00:45:12,759 Speaker 1: I would not do that for any of those other animals. 685 00:45:12,800 --> 00:45:17,680 Speaker 1: But again it raises another point. You've got to understand 686 00:45:17,760 --> 00:45:21,759 Speaker 1: a little bit about the digestion system of these animals, right, 687 00:45:22,200 --> 00:45:27,760 Speaker 1: And so a ruminant has bacteria in that large stomach 688 00:45:28,680 --> 00:45:33,360 Speaker 1: that breaks down the food into very small components that 689 00:45:33,440 --> 00:45:37,759 Speaker 1: are then absorbed in the bloodstream and converted to proteins 690 00:45:37,760 --> 00:45:41,840 Speaker 1: and fats and carbohydrates. In the case of a pig 691 00:45:41,960 --> 00:45:46,480 Speaker 1: or us humans, we don't have a big ruman and 692 00:45:46,560 --> 00:45:50,759 Speaker 1: so that food gets absorbed through the small intestine. As 693 00:45:50,800 --> 00:45:53,520 Speaker 1: a result, it doesn't have to be broken down into 694 00:45:54,040 --> 00:45:58,719 Speaker 1: quite such small components. So if we feed, for example, 695 00:45:58,840 --> 00:46:02,720 Speaker 1: if we have a if we have a pig that's 696 00:46:02,800 --> 00:46:09,840 Speaker 1: eating acorns or peanuts, then the fats will be quite oily, 697 00:46:10,120 --> 00:46:14,240 Speaker 1: the meat will be oily, and and you'll actually get 698 00:46:14,280 --> 00:46:17,600 Speaker 1: some flavor from the diet. But in the case of 699 00:46:17,640 --> 00:46:22,439 Speaker 1: a ruminant because all the food parts get broken down 700 00:46:22,560 --> 00:46:28,560 Speaker 1: so small, the type of diet is not so critical. Now, 701 00:46:29,200 --> 00:46:32,400 Speaker 1: the energy and the diet is. Because remember when we 702 00:46:32,440 --> 00:46:35,399 Speaker 1: talked about three things that influenced tenderness, one of those 703 00:46:35,520 --> 00:46:38,200 Speaker 1: was fat. So if you get a deer that's grazing 704 00:46:38,239 --> 00:46:42,480 Speaker 1: on corn fields, for example, that's high energy. They're storing 705 00:46:42,560 --> 00:46:46,000 Speaker 1: that extra energy in their body in in a form 706 00:46:46,040 --> 00:46:50,359 Speaker 1: of fat, and that will we particularly in America, we 707 00:46:50,480 --> 00:46:53,560 Speaker 1: love the taste of of fat in our in our 708 00:46:53,600 --> 00:46:56,960 Speaker 1: meat products, and so a high energy diet helps. But 709 00:46:57,080 --> 00:47:00,279 Speaker 1: whether that high energy comes from corn or we eat 710 00:47:00,920 --> 00:47:05,080 Speaker 1: is probably not as critical, particularly in wild game. How 711 00:47:05,160 --> 00:47:07,520 Speaker 1: quickly does that diet need to change for you to 712 00:47:07,680 --> 00:47:10,160 Speaker 1: notice a change in the meat quality. I always hear 713 00:47:10,200 --> 00:47:13,720 Speaker 1: people refer to wood ducks as the best tasting ducks 714 00:47:13,760 --> 00:47:16,239 Speaker 1: because they eat a lot of acorns. But it's hard 715 00:47:16,280 --> 00:47:18,719 Speaker 1: for me to fathom that throughout their entire migration they're 716 00:47:18,719 --> 00:47:21,719 Speaker 1: finding acorns. So how how quickly would something need to 717 00:47:21,719 --> 00:47:24,440 Speaker 1: start eating acorns? Or corn or something like that for 718 00:47:24,480 --> 00:47:27,680 Speaker 1: you to notice the improved meat. Yeah, So the way 719 00:47:27,680 --> 00:47:30,160 Speaker 1: to think about that is, first of all, you've got 720 00:47:30,239 --> 00:47:34,120 Speaker 1: a deposit fat from the diet, but you also got 721 00:47:34,120 --> 00:47:38,480 Speaker 1: to replace fat that's already there, right, And so, uh, 722 00:47:38,840 --> 00:47:41,399 Speaker 1: you have to think about how quickly do you get 723 00:47:41,520 --> 00:47:43,560 Speaker 1: rid of the old facts that are there and how 724 00:47:43,640 --> 00:47:47,480 Speaker 1: quickly do you add new facts that are there? Um, 725 00:47:47,760 --> 00:47:51,360 Speaker 1: I don't I don't know specifically for for ducks, for example, 726 00:47:51,440 --> 00:47:55,440 Speaker 1: but in the case of cattle, I'm going to bigger animals, 727 00:47:55,480 --> 00:47:57,439 Speaker 1: That's what I know. In the case of cattle, they'll 728 00:47:57,480 --> 00:47:59,120 Speaker 1: be in a feed lot a hundred, a hundred and 729 00:47:59,120 --> 00:48:02,840 Speaker 1: fifty days in order to get the high marbling, the 730 00:48:02,920 --> 00:48:06,759 Speaker 1: high fat inside the muscle that really gives us. Now 731 00:48:07,320 --> 00:48:10,960 Speaker 1: is fifty days enough? Well, it's certainly better than zero, right, 732 00:48:11,040 --> 00:48:13,920 Speaker 1: So it's a continuum. The longer you do it, the 733 00:48:13,960 --> 00:48:19,840 Speaker 1: better you're going to be. Can you explain marbling and then, uh, 734 00:48:20,200 --> 00:48:23,480 Speaker 1: like what factors lead an animal to to have marbling? 735 00:48:24,520 --> 00:48:26,719 Speaker 1: Because you'll often hear I don't know if you know 736 00:48:26,800 --> 00:48:30,359 Speaker 1: about this or not, but you'll hear people say that, um, 737 00:48:30,520 --> 00:48:35,400 Speaker 1: for instance, like that venison isn't marbled. But this is 738 00:48:35,400 --> 00:48:38,479 Speaker 1: probably way outside of your expertise. But mountain goat has 739 00:48:38,560 --> 00:48:42,759 Speaker 1: some marbling. Um, what is it? And is it really 740 00:48:43,600 --> 00:48:48,280 Speaker 1: not universal? Ye? Well again, think how that body stores energy. 741 00:48:48,360 --> 00:48:52,040 Speaker 1: When we get access energy, our nature is to store 742 00:48:52,080 --> 00:48:55,799 Speaker 1: it as fat. Right are glycogen supplies are good? So 743 00:48:55,920 --> 00:48:59,399 Speaker 1: we start storing energy as fat. Now that fact can 744 00:48:59,400 --> 00:49:03,080 Speaker 1: be in side the muscle that's marbling, or it can 745 00:49:03,120 --> 00:49:06,839 Speaker 1: be outside the muscle, either under the skin we call 746 00:49:06,960 --> 00:49:11,319 Speaker 1: that subcutaneous fat, or between the muscles, which would be 747 00:49:11,840 --> 00:49:17,319 Speaker 1: intertermuscular fat instead of intramuscular fat. And so depending on 748 00:49:17,520 --> 00:49:21,360 Speaker 1: genetics and the type of animal, they will store energy 749 00:49:21,520 --> 00:49:26,040 Speaker 1: either inside the muscle or outside the muscle, and that's 750 00:49:26,080 --> 00:49:31,320 Speaker 1: probably species specific. Within a species, there are genetic differences. 751 00:49:31,360 --> 00:49:34,959 Speaker 1: For example, why gub for example, has a lot more 752 00:49:35,040 --> 00:49:40,800 Speaker 1: marbling than does Angus or or Herford or or another 753 00:49:41,160 --> 00:49:45,560 Speaker 1: us breed of cattle. So there are some genetic differences 754 00:49:45,640 --> 00:49:50,239 Speaker 1: within a within a species that also regulate how much 755 00:49:50,800 --> 00:49:55,120 Speaker 1: marbling is deposited. We know this for sure that you 756 00:49:55,200 --> 00:49:58,040 Speaker 1: only get marbling when you have a high energy diet, 757 00:49:58,680 --> 00:50:02,239 Speaker 1: and if you don't, and marbling is least likely to 758 00:50:02,360 --> 00:50:06,040 Speaker 1: be deposited. So a lot of wild game, you know, 759 00:50:06,080 --> 00:50:10,160 Speaker 1: they're foraging, but they're not on they're not in the cornfield, 760 00:50:10,160 --> 00:50:13,000 Speaker 1: they're not getting a high energy diet, so they're probably 761 00:50:13,000 --> 00:50:15,440 Speaker 1: not gonna have as much marbling, even if they have 762 00:50:15,520 --> 00:50:18,680 Speaker 1: the genetic potential to deposit it in the first place. 763 00:50:18,920 --> 00:50:20,879 Speaker 1: You know, I want to back up a little bit, 764 00:50:22,080 --> 00:50:25,640 Speaker 1: and this kind of goes back to gutting things and 765 00:50:25,640 --> 00:50:29,200 Speaker 1: and the sort of timeline around rigor. But you hear 766 00:50:29,239 --> 00:50:33,360 Speaker 1: people describe aging, which we want to get into later. 767 00:50:33,520 --> 00:50:38,480 Speaker 1: But you'll hear people describe aging as like a controlled decomposition. Right, 768 00:50:38,960 --> 00:50:40,399 Speaker 1: I don't know, I don't know if that's a fair 769 00:50:40,400 --> 00:50:46,120 Speaker 1: statement or not. But what happens when um, well, I'll 770 00:50:46,120 --> 00:50:49,120 Speaker 1: put it another way. Sometimes someone will complain about, oh 771 00:50:49,160 --> 00:50:51,799 Speaker 1: I got a deer and antelope or whatever and it 772 00:50:51,840 --> 00:50:53,680 Speaker 1: didn't taste you know, it was no good, it was 773 00:50:53,719 --> 00:50:57,520 Speaker 1: too gamey, whatever, And people will say, oh, yeah, but 774 00:50:58,120 --> 00:51:01,359 Speaker 1: he shot the deer and in rolled around with it 775 00:51:01,440 --> 00:51:07,440 Speaker 1: in the back of his truck for three days. Okay. Um, where, 776 00:51:07,760 --> 00:51:13,839 Speaker 1: if if aging is is decomposition, where does rotting Like 777 00:51:14,040 --> 00:51:17,680 Speaker 1: where does aging end and rotting begin? Like? What is 778 00:51:17,719 --> 00:51:23,320 Speaker 1: the difference there? That's it. That's an awesome question. Um, 779 00:51:24,200 --> 00:51:27,640 Speaker 1: think about dry aged beef for a moment, right, it 780 00:51:27,719 --> 00:51:33,120 Speaker 1: could be aged forty fifty, sixty seventy days, and yet 781 00:51:33,160 --> 00:51:35,400 Speaker 1: normally we would think if you had a steak in 782 00:51:35,440 --> 00:51:39,000 Speaker 1: your refrigerator for that long, it's long gone, right, you're 783 00:51:39,040 --> 00:51:42,960 Speaker 1: gonna throw it away. And so you have to differentiate 784 00:51:43,120 --> 00:51:47,400 Speaker 1: between when we when we talk about aging, we're talking 785 00:51:47,400 --> 00:51:53,360 Speaker 1: about the breakdown of the tissues, mostly the protein inside 786 00:51:53,360 --> 00:51:57,720 Speaker 1: the meat. Whereas when I think about spoil age or rotting, 787 00:51:58,200 --> 00:52:01,239 Speaker 1: I'm really thinking about back to real growth on the 788 00:52:01,280 --> 00:52:04,680 Speaker 1: outside of that tissue. So if you have a way 789 00:52:04,719 --> 00:52:10,560 Speaker 1: to age but to reduce bacterial growth, you can still 790 00:52:10,680 --> 00:52:14,880 Speaker 1: get improvement in tenderness. Certainly, you get changes in flavor 791 00:52:15,520 --> 00:52:20,160 Speaker 1: um from oxidation that normally occurs, but you could you 792 00:52:20,200 --> 00:52:22,880 Speaker 1: could age for longer if you could get rid of 793 00:52:22,920 --> 00:52:26,200 Speaker 1: bacterial growth. Right. And so that's why you've got to 794 00:52:26,239 --> 00:52:29,680 Speaker 1: be real sanitary when you're out there working, Like you say, 795 00:52:29,800 --> 00:52:33,399 Speaker 1: avoid the grass and the extra blood and everything else 796 00:52:33,480 --> 00:52:36,359 Speaker 1: getting all over the meat, because all that does is 797 00:52:36,800 --> 00:52:41,400 Speaker 1: help inoculate the outside surface of that meat with bacteria, 798 00:52:41,760 --> 00:52:43,840 Speaker 1: and that's not a good thing when it comes to 799 00:52:43,880 --> 00:52:46,319 Speaker 1: eating quality. So if you could, if you could have 800 00:52:46,480 --> 00:52:54,320 Speaker 1: a hypothetical situation where you could like eliminate all life 801 00:52:55,080 --> 00:52:59,120 Speaker 1: inside of a walking cooler, right, meaning there's no like, 802 00:52:59,400 --> 00:53:03,360 Speaker 1: there's no bacteria, there's no fungus, like, all life is 803 00:53:03,440 --> 00:53:07,160 Speaker 1: gone inside some space. You would put a deer in there, 804 00:53:07,280 --> 00:53:10,520 Speaker 1: and that deer would still age, but it wouldn't rot 805 00:53:11,960 --> 00:53:18,680 Speaker 1: right now, it would It would dehydrate, right, it would 806 00:53:18,719 --> 00:53:24,120 Speaker 1: dry out re member meat water. And so the typical 807 00:53:24,200 --> 00:53:30,759 Speaker 1: dry aging over that day period might lose ten or 808 00:53:30,760 --> 00:53:33,440 Speaker 1: fifteen percent of the way, right, So there's still a 809 00:53:33,480 --> 00:53:35,840 Speaker 1: lot more water that can come out, but at some 810 00:53:35,920 --> 00:53:39,160 Speaker 1: point you're practically making jerky. It's just so dry that 811 00:53:39,600 --> 00:53:43,240 Speaker 1: there's nothing else to do, So you couldn't do it indefinitely. 812 00:53:44,560 --> 00:53:49,400 Speaker 1: The idea would be that you could safely age longer 813 00:53:49,960 --> 00:53:52,759 Speaker 1: if you could get rid of the bacteria. And by 814 00:53:52,800 --> 00:53:56,840 Speaker 1: the way, the bacteria wouldn't necessarily already be in the cooler. 815 00:53:57,400 --> 00:53:59,800 Speaker 1: We bring it in when we bring in the carcass 816 00:53:59,840 --> 00:54:03,799 Speaker 1: of animal. So so that guy who's driving around with 817 00:54:03,920 --> 00:54:06,840 Speaker 1: a uh antelope on the back of his truck for 818 00:54:06,880 --> 00:54:11,200 Speaker 1: a couple of days, you know he's inoculating that product 819 00:54:11,320 --> 00:54:13,080 Speaker 1: is what he's doing by the time to get down 820 00:54:13,080 --> 00:54:17,920 Speaker 1: on it. I recently read a book called Extra Virginity, 821 00:54:17,960 --> 00:54:20,520 Speaker 1: and it was about the scandalous world of olive oil 822 00:54:20,680 --> 00:54:24,359 Speaker 1: and how it's like rampant to take a ten dollar 823 00:54:24,440 --> 00:54:27,000 Speaker 1: bottle of olive oil and put a five price tag 824 00:54:27,000 --> 00:54:32,080 Speaker 1: on and five label. Is the world of meat exempt 825 00:54:32,160 --> 00:54:34,120 Speaker 1: from that or does it happen there? What areks some 826 00:54:34,239 --> 00:54:40,320 Speaker 1: examples of meat fraud in the commercial industry. All animal 827 00:54:40,400 --> 00:54:48,279 Speaker 1: harvest and cutting is um overseen by employees of the 828 00:54:48,360 --> 00:54:54,320 Speaker 1: federal government, and so meat fraud is very very very low. 829 00:54:55,080 --> 00:55:00,000 Speaker 1: Uh that there are inspectors there to ensure safety and wholesomeness. 830 00:55:00,520 --> 00:55:05,360 Speaker 1: There are agents that deal with accuracy and labeling and 831 00:55:05,400 --> 00:55:09,640 Speaker 1: the rest of that kind of thing, and so um, 832 00:55:09,680 --> 00:55:14,040 Speaker 1: there's a there's a lot of reasons why meat fraud 833 00:55:14,080 --> 00:55:16,759 Speaker 1: would be at a minimum. Now, if I were going 834 00:55:16,800 --> 00:55:21,759 Speaker 1: to cheat, I might I might cut one part of 835 00:55:21,800 --> 00:55:25,759 Speaker 1: a carcass and tell you it's a different part, right, 836 00:55:26,360 --> 00:55:28,839 Speaker 1: and and so I might try and take something out 837 00:55:28,840 --> 00:55:31,719 Speaker 1: of the shoulder and make you think it's part of 838 00:55:31,719 --> 00:55:34,719 Speaker 1: the rib, for example, because there's a dollar value there. 839 00:55:35,200 --> 00:55:39,520 Speaker 1: It doesn't happen very often, but that would be one place. 840 00:55:40,120 --> 00:55:43,040 Speaker 1: The other place where you simply need to be careful 841 00:55:43,360 --> 00:55:47,240 Speaker 1: is some of the claims that are made about how 842 00:55:47,280 --> 00:55:52,200 Speaker 1: the animal is raised and handled and so forth. And again, 843 00:55:52,400 --> 00:55:55,560 Speaker 1: most of the time there are systems in place, their 844 00:55:55,640 --> 00:55:59,680 Speaker 1: audits in place, their government employees in place to ensure 845 00:55:59,719 --> 00:56:03,600 Speaker 1: that that's uh, that that that's accurate, and if there 846 00:56:03,719 --> 00:56:08,880 Speaker 1: is deception and labeling, the consequences of that are pretty serious. So, um, 847 00:56:08,680 --> 00:56:10,719 Speaker 1: I don't think there's a lot of fraud in meat 848 00:56:10,800 --> 00:56:14,080 Speaker 1: quite honestly, have you? Uh you know, it's funny Spencer 849 00:56:14,080 --> 00:56:15,960 Speaker 1: brings up the olevel thing because I know that there's 850 00:56:16,000 --> 00:56:22,360 Speaker 1: a ton of fraud uh in the fish world. And 851 00:56:22,400 --> 00:56:25,600 Speaker 1: I remember reading about this thing where you know, there's 852 00:56:25,600 --> 00:56:29,279 Speaker 1: many varieties of snapper, but they don't have name brand recognition. 853 00:56:29,840 --> 00:56:31,719 Speaker 1: I remember reading that these guys that just saying, we're 854 00:56:31,800 --> 00:56:37,240 Speaker 1: seventies some percent of the fish being sold as red snapper. 855 00:56:38,200 --> 00:56:41,480 Speaker 1: It's not red snapper. But when you people look at 856 00:56:41,480 --> 00:56:43,120 Speaker 1: the men you are going to a fish market, they 857 00:56:43,120 --> 00:56:46,640 Speaker 1: don't want to see mangrove snapper, red line or blue 858 00:56:46,640 --> 00:56:48,600 Speaker 1: line or whatever to all these different kinds of snappers, 859 00:56:48,600 --> 00:56:51,240 Speaker 1: so they just throw up like red snapper because people 860 00:56:51,400 --> 00:56:55,640 Speaker 1: will think like, oh, but the difference there is it's uh, 861 00:56:55,840 --> 00:56:58,799 Speaker 1: it's not nearly as a controlled system from a supply standpoint, 862 00:57:00,000 --> 00:57:02,239 Speaker 1: that's correct. You know some of the guys buying filet's like, 863 00:57:02,800 --> 00:57:06,759 Speaker 1: it's already out of the question. But it's hard to uh, 864 00:57:06,920 --> 00:57:09,040 Speaker 1: it's probably hard to pass off one kind of carcass 865 00:57:09,080 --> 00:57:12,400 Speaker 1: as another kind of carcass. Imagine the grade the grading 866 00:57:12,440 --> 00:57:16,280 Speaker 1: system could be screwed up. Oh, now that that too 867 00:57:16,400 --> 00:57:20,320 Speaker 1: is done by federal employees, and that right, So you 868 00:57:20,320 --> 00:57:21,840 Speaker 1: don't make your own call. You don't make your own 869 00:57:21,840 --> 00:57:27,000 Speaker 1: call on grading. No, if you you can self grade 870 00:57:27,600 --> 00:57:30,920 Speaker 1: and establish your own grading requirements. But if you're going 871 00:57:31,000 --> 00:57:38,040 Speaker 1: to call it prime choice select, then those grades are 872 00:57:38,680 --> 00:57:43,919 Speaker 1: are through federal employees, federal graders, And that's a that's 873 00:57:43,920 --> 00:57:47,120 Speaker 1: been a tightly controlled system for a long time. I 874 00:57:47,240 --> 00:57:49,120 Speaker 1: was in a I was in a meat plant this 875 00:57:49,200 --> 00:57:54,960 Speaker 1: week actually where I watched graders work. So it's still happening. 876 00:57:55,400 --> 00:57:59,640 Speaker 1: Were you were you second guessing him? No? No, I 877 00:58:00,600 --> 00:58:03,960 Speaker 1: you agreed with the calls they were making. Yes, I was. 878 00:58:04,040 --> 00:58:06,760 Speaker 1: Actually I was actually in their buying meat for a 879 00:58:06,760 --> 00:58:11,680 Speaker 1: research project. Actually, So what goes into the different grades, 880 00:58:11,760 --> 00:58:14,760 Speaker 1: like what makes a prime a prime, or a choice 881 00:58:14,800 --> 00:58:18,360 Speaker 1: of choice or a select a select. So there's there's 882 00:58:18,520 --> 00:58:22,520 Speaker 1: two primary elements used for grade. One is how old 883 00:58:22,720 --> 00:58:25,840 Speaker 1: the animal is, and the other one has to do 884 00:58:25,880 --> 00:58:29,200 Speaker 1: with how much marveling, how much fat inside the muscle. 885 00:58:30,320 --> 00:58:33,680 Speaker 1: It turns out in the US, we sent all the 886 00:58:33,800 --> 00:58:37,240 Speaker 1: young animals to one plant and all of the old 887 00:58:37,360 --> 00:58:43,520 Speaker 1: animals to a different plant, and so, uh, they're mostly 888 00:58:43,720 --> 00:58:47,160 Speaker 1: Age is not a question, and it's just how much 889 00:58:47,240 --> 00:58:51,080 Speaker 1: marbling is present to get prime or choice or select. 890 00:58:52,760 --> 00:58:55,280 Speaker 1: One time I was, I was working on a magazine 891 00:58:55,360 --> 00:59:01,800 Speaker 1: story years ago about livestock theft, like like contemporary cattle rustling, 892 00:59:02,840 --> 00:59:05,320 Speaker 1: and I went, I was at a sale yard in 893 00:59:05,560 --> 00:59:09,200 Speaker 1: Twin Falls, Idaho, and I was with some guys that 894 00:59:09,880 --> 00:59:16,240 Speaker 1: run a cow calfe operation and they were watching what 895 00:59:16,360 --> 00:59:21,680 Speaker 1: they called milked out dairy cows climbing off a truck 896 00:59:23,040 --> 00:59:29,160 Speaker 1: and they expressed like a high level of disapproval about 897 00:59:29,280 --> 00:59:34,080 Speaker 1: the condition of the animals and made a comment about 898 00:59:34,160 --> 00:59:38,720 Speaker 1: what the beef would be like off those What were 899 00:59:38,720 --> 00:59:44,760 Speaker 1: they getting at, Well, it's that it's nutrition again, right, 900 00:59:44,840 --> 00:59:49,840 Speaker 1: So if you have enough energy then you can support yourself. 901 00:59:49,840 --> 00:59:53,160 Speaker 1: You have enough muscle and you have enough fat to 902 00:59:53,320 --> 00:59:58,040 Speaker 1: sustain body condition. In the case of dairy cows in particular, 903 00:59:58,080 --> 01:00:01,080 Speaker 1: they're being milked every day. They're putting a lot of 904 01:00:01,120 --> 01:00:04,520 Speaker 1: their energy into providing that milk. So you have to 905 01:00:04,600 --> 01:00:08,440 Speaker 1: provide a really high plane of nutrition. If you're milking 906 01:00:09,000 --> 01:00:13,320 Speaker 1: and used in the plane of nutrition lowers, then that 907 01:00:13,480 --> 01:00:16,880 Speaker 1: animal is going to get a lot leaner and it 908 01:00:17,000 --> 01:00:19,680 Speaker 1: might even lose a little bit of muscle mass. And 909 01:00:19,760 --> 01:00:23,440 Speaker 1: so that's the body condition that they're looking at. So 910 01:00:23,520 --> 01:00:26,800 Speaker 1: now so it won't be like potentially won't be as 911 01:00:26,920 --> 01:00:30,720 Speaker 1: good and could be tougher. Well. Yeah, So the other 912 01:00:30,880 --> 01:00:34,640 Speaker 1: issue there is those dairy cows are much older. They 913 01:00:34,640 --> 01:00:37,840 Speaker 1: could be three or four or five years old, whereas 914 01:00:38,640 --> 01:00:42,160 Speaker 1: young cattle to the marketplace are typically two years or less. 915 01:00:42,840 --> 01:00:46,160 Speaker 1: And the older and animals sort of like us us, right, 916 01:00:46,240 --> 01:00:48,480 Speaker 1: the older we get, the tougher we get, right, And 917 01:00:48,600 --> 01:00:53,640 Speaker 1: that's what happens for muscle as well. Mature animals more connective, tissue, 918 01:00:53,840 --> 01:00:57,560 Speaker 1: less tender than younger animals, so that when you're out 919 01:00:57,640 --> 01:01:01,000 Speaker 1: hunting you see that three or four year old stag, right, 920 01:01:01,560 --> 01:01:04,960 Speaker 1: it's it's not gonna be as tender as an animal 921 01:01:05,080 --> 01:01:08,360 Speaker 1: that's much younger. Are there any exceptions to the rule, 922 01:01:08,560 --> 01:01:11,360 Speaker 1: like does it go as far as that a fawn 923 01:01:11,640 --> 01:01:16,720 Speaker 1: dear would be way more tender than an old buck? Yes, 924 01:01:16,840 --> 01:01:19,160 Speaker 1: what you just said is correct. A faun would be 925 01:01:19,240 --> 01:01:23,720 Speaker 1: more tender than a buck with with one caveat that 926 01:01:24,080 --> 01:01:29,360 Speaker 1: fawn is so small that it would be very easy 927 01:01:29,400 --> 01:01:33,680 Speaker 1: for it that muscle to get cold and contract before 928 01:01:33,720 --> 01:01:36,520 Speaker 1: it goes into rigor mortis. So if you could control 929 01:01:36,640 --> 01:01:40,600 Speaker 1: temperature correctly, then that faun would be way more tender 930 01:01:40,640 --> 01:01:43,840 Speaker 1: than the older animal. It's the same thing with veal, right, 931 01:01:44,000 --> 01:01:47,200 Speaker 1: veal is much younger than the than the twenty four 932 01:01:47,800 --> 01:01:51,880 Speaker 1: month old uh steers and efforts that we buy in 933 01:01:51,920 --> 01:01:54,280 Speaker 1: the grocery store every day, and veal as much more 934 01:01:54,320 --> 01:01:58,240 Speaker 1: tender as well? Is veal synonymous with crate raised veal? 935 01:01:58,280 --> 01:02:00,160 Speaker 1: Do you remember all the blow up years to go 936 01:02:00,200 --> 01:02:02,720 Speaker 1: about create raise veal? Is there a difference? There's create 937 01:02:02,800 --> 01:02:07,360 Speaker 1: raise veal a qualifier of veal. Uh No, deal is 938 01:02:07,400 --> 01:02:11,000 Speaker 1: based on animal age. So most of the veal these 939 01:02:11,040 --> 01:02:13,840 Speaker 1: days is raised in pens and group pins where there 940 01:02:13,880 --> 01:02:17,320 Speaker 1: are a number of them together. So um that there 941 01:02:17,440 --> 01:02:20,320 Speaker 1: is a welfare question that was raised, And I think 942 01:02:20,320 --> 01:02:22,600 Speaker 1: the industry has responded well to it in that regard, 943 01:02:22,960 --> 01:02:27,080 Speaker 1: So so that is like that is a classification. There 944 01:02:27,320 --> 01:02:30,920 Speaker 1: was a classification of veal rather than just meaning the 945 01:02:31,000 --> 01:02:33,440 Speaker 1: veal is create race. I think people thought it was synonymous, 946 01:02:33,480 --> 01:02:37,480 Speaker 1: like if it's veal, you know, it was raised in 947 01:02:37,520 --> 01:02:41,600 Speaker 1: a specific way, but it could skydive and still be vealed. Yeah, 948 01:02:41,640 --> 01:02:46,920 Speaker 1: that the government would say that um veal is based 949 01:02:46,920 --> 01:02:51,320 Speaker 1: on animal age period, that's it. And so if someone's 950 01:02:51,400 --> 01:02:54,560 Speaker 1: you know, if someone says free range veal or pin 951 01:02:54,720 --> 01:02:59,919 Speaker 1: raised veal or group race veal, those descriptors are being 952 01:03:00,120 --> 01:03:03,080 Speaker 1: used by the people who are marketing the product. Federal 953 01:03:03,120 --> 01:03:06,439 Speaker 1: government focuses on the fact that it in fact is veal. 954 01:03:07,680 --> 01:03:11,640 Speaker 1: Why is it bad to eat raw red meat? And 955 01:03:11,680 --> 01:03:15,200 Speaker 1: are there less threats with something like deer meat versus 956 01:03:15,520 --> 01:03:21,600 Speaker 1: cal meat. The risk of eating raw meat is primarily 957 01:03:21,680 --> 01:03:27,720 Speaker 1: one of microbial issues spoilage and and pathogens that could 958 01:03:27,760 --> 01:03:33,360 Speaker 1: make you sick um. In addition, if there are parasites 959 01:03:33,400 --> 01:03:36,520 Speaker 1: and the meat, then if you haven't cooked it, then 960 01:03:36,600 --> 01:03:40,160 Speaker 1: that's a risk as well. So I would think game 961 01:03:40,160 --> 01:03:45,240 Speaker 1: meat would be perhaps more likely to have parasites. Uh 962 01:03:45,600 --> 01:03:49,080 Speaker 1: in the in commercial production of animals, they're gonna do 963 01:03:49,160 --> 01:03:52,880 Speaker 1: everything they can to minimize that because that reduces the 964 01:03:52,920 --> 01:03:57,040 Speaker 1: growth efficiency and it's all about efficiency and commercial production. 965 01:03:58,280 --> 01:04:04,360 Speaker 1: So again and lifeless uh, and that hypothetical lifeless space. 966 01:04:05,120 --> 01:04:06,760 Speaker 1: You could eat the raw meat all the time. It's 967 01:04:06,800 --> 01:04:10,680 Speaker 1: just like you're there's no damage from the actual meat. 968 01:04:10,720 --> 01:04:16,840 Speaker 1: It's just stuff that you're ingesting that accompanies it. Yeah, 969 01:04:16,920 --> 01:04:20,200 Speaker 1: I think that's a fair way to say that. I haven't. 970 01:04:20,360 --> 01:04:22,440 Speaker 1: I have a question that kind of relates back also 971 01:04:22,560 --> 01:04:26,560 Speaker 1: to you know, idea of great raised veal. But okay, 972 01:04:26,640 --> 01:04:31,320 Speaker 1: so let's look at human beings. So somebody who doesn't 973 01:04:31,360 --> 01:04:35,080 Speaker 1: do any exercise whatsoever and just kind of sits around, 974 01:04:35,640 --> 01:04:38,400 Speaker 1: and then someone who lifts weights all the time and 975 01:04:38,520 --> 01:04:42,440 Speaker 1: has stronger, bigger muscle. So if we look at the 976 01:04:43,000 --> 01:04:52,040 Speaker 1: this is a cannibalism question their PhD next week after 977 01:04:52,080 --> 01:04:56,000 Speaker 1: the turtle guy, I wanna human meat guy. I'm glad 978 01:04:56,000 --> 01:04:58,600 Speaker 1: you're asking a question because I was wondering the same thing, 979 01:04:59,320 --> 01:05:02,960 Speaker 1: like which people tastes better? Yeah, totally, if you haven't 980 01:05:03,000 --> 01:05:07,160 Speaker 1: died of fruit loops, if you have salad um. So 981 01:05:07,200 --> 01:05:11,959 Speaker 1: if we look at the equivalent of that in in animals, uh, 982 01:05:12,000 --> 01:05:16,160 Speaker 1: an animal that maybe doesn't move around a lot compared 983 01:05:16,200 --> 01:05:21,920 Speaker 1: to same same animal, same species, but that moves around 984 01:05:22,440 --> 01:05:28,080 Speaker 1: a lot more or um or I don't know, cats 985 01:05:28,080 --> 01:05:30,320 Speaker 1: climbing trees. Yeah, we hear about people talk about why 986 01:05:30,360 --> 01:05:32,680 Speaker 1: is the chicken in like in rural Mexico, the chicken 987 01:05:32,760 --> 01:05:35,440 Speaker 1: is so good? Be like, well, it's well exercised, right 988 01:05:35,520 --> 01:05:39,200 Speaker 1: like like if it if an animal has I don't know, 989 01:05:39,560 --> 01:05:44,640 Speaker 1: is stronger, has more muscle, is potentially more contracted muscle, 990 01:05:44,680 --> 01:05:47,919 Speaker 1: Like how does that all or is well exercised or not? 991 01:05:48,400 --> 01:05:52,720 Speaker 1: How does that have an effect if any on toughness 992 01:05:52,800 --> 01:05:55,520 Speaker 1: or you can you can still manipulate the meat afterwards 993 01:05:55,520 --> 01:05:58,640 Speaker 1: and the muscle fiber afterwards to to get it to 994 01:05:58,760 --> 01:06:03,160 Speaker 1: be tender good. I'll answer that, but I just want 995 01:06:03,200 --> 01:06:06,520 Speaker 1: to tease you, guys. I always have a conversation with 996 01:06:06,560 --> 01:06:09,200 Speaker 1: my students, and that is that sooner or later when 997 01:06:09,240 --> 01:06:13,720 Speaker 1: you're talking to the public, they become closet scientists, and 998 01:06:13,840 --> 01:06:17,760 Speaker 1: I think they don'ts and but the basis of your 999 01:06:17,840 --> 01:06:24,360 Speaker 1: question is is actually is twofold number one? Does exercise 1000 01:06:24,600 --> 01:06:29,120 Speaker 1: make me less tender? And then the other dimension of 1001 01:06:29,160 --> 01:06:33,520 Speaker 1: that is the inactivity means that they're burning up less 1002 01:06:33,680 --> 01:06:37,440 Speaker 1: energy and if they're consuming the same they're creating more fat. 1003 01:06:38,160 --> 01:06:42,040 Speaker 1: And so that latter part is true. The less exercise, 1004 01:06:42,080 --> 01:06:44,640 Speaker 1: the less movement, the more fat is going to be 1005 01:06:44,720 --> 01:06:49,440 Speaker 1: produced on the same diet. Right. In terms of exercise 1006 01:06:49,600 --> 01:06:54,000 Speaker 1: creating tougher connective tissue and the rest of that, those differences, 1007 01:06:54,040 --> 01:06:58,280 Speaker 1: if they exist, are very subtle and not meaningful. You 1008 01:06:58,280 --> 01:07:04,840 Speaker 1: would have, uh, are greater difference in um tenderness from 1009 01:07:04,880 --> 01:07:08,880 Speaker 1: one muscle to another than you would from one animal 1010 01:07:08,920 --> 01:07:12,320 Speaker 1: to another because of exercise. Okay, so pretty much, you know, 1011 01:07:12,960 --> 01:07:16,600 Speaker 1: given given more or less exercise among people in the office, 1012 01:07:16,600 --> 01:07:20,280 Speaker 1: we may all taste about the same. Yeah, presuming you're 1013 01:07:20,320 --> 01:07:25,439 Speaker 1: the same age, right, Yeah, yeah, in a real quick, 1014 01:07:25,480 --> 01:07:28,480 Speaker 1: simple way, what's the difference between the dark meat? You know, 1015 01:07:28,520 --> 01:07:32,640 Speaker 1: with poultry, what's the difference between the dark meat and 1016 01:07:32,680 --> 01:07:36,919 Speaker 1: the white meat? Uh, it's it's that amount of myoglobin 1017 01:07:37,000 --> 01:07:41,840 Speaker 1: that's present. So, um, not all muscle cells are the same. 1018 01:07:41,920 --> 01:07:44,919 Speaker 1: Some have more myoglobin than the other. So the dark 1019 01:07:44,960 --> 01:07:48,960 Speaker 1: meat just has more of that myoglobin and biologically typically 1020 01:07:48,960 --> 01:07:51,320 Speaker 1: has a little bit more lipid, a little bit more 1021 01:07:51,360 --> 01:07:54,080 Speaker 1: fat in there as well. Neither one is very fat, 1022 01:07:54,120 --> 01:07:56,479 Speaker 1: but there might be another percentage or to a fat 1023 01:07:56,520 --> 01:07:59,280 Speaker 1: in there. Mostly the color difference is just because there's 1024 01:07:59,320 --> 01:08:04,080 Speaker 1: more of that oxygen binding pigment in the meat. Can 1025 01:08:04,120 --> 01:08:07,160 Speaker 1: you explain the function of glands that you find when 1026 01:08:07,200 --> 01:08:11,360 Speaker 1: you're butchering something and our glands as prominent in domestic 1027 01:08:11,400 --> 01:08:15,280 Speaker 1: animals as they are wild ones? Well, yes, Spencer's not 1028 01:08:15,320 --> 01:08:18,479 Speaker 1: like you produce more glands from being domestic. Well, I 1029 01:08:18,479 --> 01:08:23,400 Speaker 1: don't know. I'm thinking about like with a white tailed deer, 1030 01:08:23,600 --> 01:08:27,200 Speaker 1: like they use their glands to mark territory and things 1031 01:08:27,200 --> 01:08:31,240 Speaker 1: like that. The more active gland. Yeah, well I'll buy that, 1032 01:08:31,240 --> 01:08:33,160 Speaker 1: because you smell a fox and you smell your dog 1033 01:08:33,439 --> 01:08:39,160 Speaker 1: named close to the same thing. There. He's right. So 1034 01:08:39,520 --> 01:08:42,479 Speaker 1: in this case, you're talking about scent glands, and we 1035 01:08:42,560 --> 01:08:45,320 Speaker 1: really don't have scent glands and domestic animals to deal 1036 01:08:45,400 --> 01:08:50,160 Speaker 1: with too much where Yes, But if you're talking about 1037 01:08:50,240 --> 01:08:54,799 Speaker 1: lymph glands, those lymph nodes, lamp glands, they exist in 1038 01:08:55,000 --> 01:08:59,560 Speaker 1: all of the animals. They're probably a little bit more visible, 1039 01:08:59,560 --> 01:09:03,560 Speaker 1: easy to see in a leaner animal, and so you 1040 01:09:03,680 --> 01:09:06,600 Speaker 1: probably see those more often in game. And what is 1041 01:09:06,640 --> 01:09:11,599 Speaker 1: the function of those, Well, that's a that's an immune function. 1042 01:09:11,720 --> 01:09:15,720 Speaker 1: That's how the animal sustains hell when you get when 1043 01:09:15,760 --> 01:09:18,040 Speaker 1: you get a cold, you have an immune response that 1044 01:09:18,120 --> 01:09:20,839 Speaker 1: helps you fight against it. So there's a whole system 1045 01:09:20,880 --> 01:09:24,120 Speaker 1: in the body called the lymph system that moves that 1046 01:09:24,200 --> 01:09:28,240 Speaker 1: fluid around to help fight UH disease and injury and 1047 01:09:28,280 --> 01:09:30,320 Speaker 1: the rest of that kind of thing. So when you 1048 01:09:30,360 --> 01:09:34,439 Speaker 1: sprain your ankle, it swells up. That's that's lymph fluid 1049 01:09:34,720 --> 01:09:37,639 Speaker 1: pooling in your ankle. As a result, you know, there's 1050 01:09:37,640 --> 01:09:39,960 Speaker 1: a little gland. It's always hiding out in the back 1051 01:09:40,040 --> 01:09:41,640 Speaker 1: leg of a deer, and you actually gotta take it 1052 01:09:41,680 --> 01:09:44,600 Speaker 1: apart to get that thing out. Let's say you do 1053 01:09:44,760 --> 01:09:46,760 Speaker 1: you forget or don't or you never knew about it, 1054 01:09:46,800 --> 01:09:49,760 Speaker 1: and just you must have been eating him your whole life. Um, 1055 01:09:49,960 --> 01:09:54,080 Speaker 1: is that necessarily bad for you? I don't. I wouldn't 1056 01:09:54,080 --> 01:09:57,000 Speaker 1: be too concerned about a health concern. I suspect it 1057 01:09:57,120 --> 01:10:00,120 Speaker 1: probably has a quality effect on taste and play r 1058 01:10:00,160 --> 01:10:02,360 Speaker 1: and that kind of thing. That same guy that told 1059 01:10:02,400 --> 01:10:05,320 Speaker 1: me the great Turkey story about shipping into Minneapolis and barrels, 1060 01:10:06,439 --> 01:10:08,760 Speaker 1: he had a little custom slaughter plant and I was 1061 01:10:08,800 --> 01:10:10,679 Speaker 1: down there with him one time and we were picking 1062 01:10:10,720 --> 01:10:17,719 Speaker 1: out uh sweetbreads. The Thamus gland. Correct, right, we're picking 1063 01:10:17,720 --> 01:10:21,080 Speaker 1: out sweetbreads and he was. We were. He was slaughtered 1064 01:10:21,080 --> 01:10:24,880 Speaker 1: a bunch of young cattle and the guy that he 1065 01:10:24,920 --> 01:10:27,200 Speaker 1: was slaughtering for didn't want them. So he had me 1066 01:10:27,280 --> 01:10:28,720 Speaker 1: down because he said, you can get all you want 1067 01:10:28,720 --> 01:10:29,960 Speaker 1: if you want to come down. And so he was 1068 01:10:30,000 --> 01:10:33,480 Speaker 1: showing me how to separate the skin and prepare them, 1069 01:10:33,520 --> 01:10:36,599 Speaker 1: and he was saying that that. I said, well, why 1070 01:10:36,600 --> 01:10:38,519 Speaker 1: are they not good on the older animals? And he 1071 01:10:38,560 --> 01:10:44,400 Speaker 1: said that it turns waxy. Is this something you had 1072 01:10:44,479 --> 01:10:49,800 Speaker 1: any exposure to? Well, I have had uh sweetbreads, and 1073 01:10:49,960 --> 01:10:53,320 Speaker 1: I can tell you that on the grill in particular, 1074 01:10:53,400 --> 01:10:57,679 Speaker 1: they can be quite delicious. They're there, it's They're incredible. Yeah, 1075 01:10:57,760 --> 01:11:01,040 Speaker 1: it's uh. And it makes sense to me that as 1076 01:11:01,080 --> 01:11:06,479 Speaker 1: the animal gets older that possibly the saturation of the 1077 01:11:06,520 --> 01:11:09,960 Speaker 1: lipids might change. I don't really know, but I think 1078 01:11:10,280 --> 01:11:15,840 Speaker 1: it's probably less waxy and more um dance, harder fat 1079 01:11:15,960 --> 01:11:19,280 Speaker 1: that's present within that area. But that's a little bit 1080 01:11:19,280 --> 01:11:21,599 Speaker 1: of guess on my part. Yeah, I've never met I've 1081 01:11:21,600 --> 01:11:24,280 Speaker 1: always thought to experiment with this, but never have. As 1082 01:11:24,360 --> 01:11:29,800 Speaker 1: if on a yearling deer um to find that sweetbread 1083 01:11:31,160 --> 01:11:33,960 Speaker 1: and prepare it and see if it's any good. And 1084 01:11:34,000 --> 01:11:35,920 Speaker 1: I'm sure someone listening has done this, but I've never 1085 01:11:35,960 --> 01:11:39,759 Speaker 1: heard of people doing sweetbreads on anything but cattle. Well, lamb, 1086 01:11:39,760 --> 01:11:42,880 Speaker 1: I think people do lamb sweetbreads. Now, they're they're a 1087 01:11:42,920 --> 01:11:44,639 Speaker 1: little bit hard to find. You gotta know what you're 1088 01:11:44,640 --> 01:11:47,879 Speaker 1: looking for. They're not very big, particularly in game animals, 1089 01:11:47,880 --> 01:11:51,320 Speaker 1: so I think that would be a bigger challenge. Why 1090 01:11:51,520 --> 01:11:57,000 Speaker 1: is beef tallow good and venison tale bad. Well, I've 1091 01:11:57,040 --> 01:12:01,000 Speaker 1: never had venison talos so, but it has to do 1092 01:12:01,160 --> 01:12:04,599 Speaker 1: with I would expect it's a difference in what fatty 1093 01:12:04,640 --> 01:12:09,160 Speaker 1: acids are made up of the tissue, right and so um, 1094 01:12:09,200 --> 01:12:12,840 Speaker 1: If you think about something like a chicken or pork fat, 1095 01:12:12,960 --> 01:12:16,400 Speaker 1: it's pretty soft. When you go to the beef carcass, 1096 01:12:16,520 --> 01:12:20,920 Speaker 1: it's a lot more firm, and so it's more saturated 1097 01:12:21,040 --> 01:12:25,240 Speaker 1: in the beef animal. Incidentally, it depends on where on 1098 01:12:25,280 --> 01:12:29,200 Speaker 1: the carcass you get. The fat in the brisket area 1099 01:12:29,640 --> 01:12:33,000 Speaker 1: is softer than fat that's over the loin and the 1100 01:12:33,000 --> 01:12:37,120 Speaker 1: fact that's around the kidney is harder than everything. And 1101 01:12:37,200 --> 01:12:40,840 Speaker 1: so there are differences within the animal as well. But 1102 01:12:41,080 --> 01:12:44,719 Speaker 1: if you have a if you have an unsaturated fat, 1103 01:12:44,880 --> 01:12:49,800 Speaker 1: a soft fat like pork, like poultry. I would expect, 1104 01:12:49,880 --> 01:12:56,280 Speaker 1: like game um, that fat will oxidize more quickly. It's 1105 01:12:56,320 --> 01:13:00,599 Speaker 1: biologically disposed to do so it interacts with sygen from 1106 01:13:00,600 --> 01:13:05,760 Speaker 1: the air. Oxidized lipids are described by US as rancid, 1107 01:13:06,280 --> 01:13:09,000 Speaker 1: and so there could very well be a flavor difference 1108 01:13:09,000 --> 01:13:10,880 Speaker 1: there as well. Oh no, I think you're getting I 1109 01:13:10,880 --> 01:13:14,400 Speaker 1: think you're you're onto it. I'll tell you some of 1110 01:13:14,400 --> 01:13:16,880 Speaker 1: the weird act when we talk about dear tallow like, 1111 01:13:16,880 --> 01:13:20,080 Speaker 1: I'll tell you some of the attributes that we find 1112 01:13:21,000 --> 01:13:25,680 Speaker 1: that differ from the attributes of bee fat. It is 1113 01:13:28,160 --> 01:13:30,960 Speaker 1: the most fat you find is over the realmp, so 1114 01:13:31,200 --> 01:13:34,760 Speaker 1: kind of like alongside like on on top of the romp, 1115 01:13:34,800 --> 01:13:37,439 Speaker 1: alongside either side of the spine, you'll find these big 1116 01:13:37,520 --> 01:13:41,920 Speaker 1: flat cakes of fat. It's it's firm right like you 1117 01:13:41,920 --> 01:13:45,440 Speaker 1: could you could cut into squares. It's kind of flaky, 1118 01:13:46,200 --> 01:13:47,920 Speaker 1: like when when it flakes, you can sort of when 1119 01:13:47,920 --> 01:13:49,280 Speaker 1: it when it's cold or whatever, you can kind of 1120 01:13:49,320 --> 01:13:51,640 Speaker 1: flake it away and hold it in your fingers and 1121 01:13:51,760 --> 01:13:55,280 Speaker 1: it doesn't melt between your fingers at all when you 1122 01:13:55,360 --> 01:13:58,960 Speaker 1: eat it. It's like if you take a sip, like 1123 01:13:59,000 --> 01:14:01,559 Speaker 1: if you were eating then some rib and then you 1124 01:14:01,600 --> 01:14:06,280 Speaker 1: had a sip of ice water. That fat will set 1125 01:14:06,360 --> 01:14:10,760 Speaker 1: up and solidify all over on the inside of your mouth, um, 1126 01:14:10,880 --> 01:14:13,680 Speaker 1: and to the point where you have to almost manually 1127 01:14:13,840 --> 01:14:16,519 Speaker 1: scrape it off the inside of your mouth. And finally 1128 01:14:17,360 --> 01:14:23,240 Speaker 1: it is good. It's okay fresh, but it rots in 1129 01:14:23,360 --> 01:14:27,160 Speaker 1: your freezer. Yeah, and you pull it out later and 1130 01:14:27,200 --> 01:14:31,080 Speaker 1: it's changed man like like six venice deer fat in 1131 01:14:31,120 --> 01:14:34,679 Speaker 1: your freezer for six months comes out way different than 1132 01:14:34,680 --> 01:14:39,840 Speaker 1: when it went in, but the meat is not changed. Yeah, 1133 01:14:39,880 --> 01:14:43,519 Speaker 1: it's that. I'm sure that's that concentration of fats and 1134 01:14:43,720 --> 01:14:47,760 Speaker 1: oxidation that takes place. Oxidation happens in your freezer as well. 1135 01:14:47,840 --> 01:14:52,120 Speaker 1: So that's entirely consistent with what I would expect. You 1136 01:14:52,120 --> 01:14:53,800 Speaker 1: know what's weird. You know what really goes bad in 1137 01:14:53,840 --> 01:14:56,960 Speaker 1: the freezer is bear fat. I don't know why. You 1138 01:14:57,000 --> 01:15:00,840 Speaker 1: can render it into like really nice lard, but it 1139 01:15:00,920 --> 01:15:05,040 Speaker 1: goes bad unrendered. Just the straight fat will rot in 1140 01:15:05,040 --> 01:15:07,840 Speaker 1: your freezer. I don't know if pork fat does, but 1141 01:15:08,840 --> 01:15:11,720 Speaker 1: I uh, pork fat well, probably at a little bit 1142 01:15:11,720 --> 01:15:14,640 Speaker 1: of a slower rate. Um. But you know, this is 1143 01:15:14,680 --> 01:15:16,759 Speaker 1: one of those things where we could talk just briefly 1144 01:15:16,800 --> 01:15:21,160 Speaker 1: about packaging, right, A lot of times we we wrap 1145 01:15:21,240 --> 01:15:24,680 Speaker 1: it up in and that's sort of that waxy coated 1146 01:15:24,840 --> 01:15:30,200 Speaker 1: or plastic coated butcher paper which doesn't get it doesn't 1147 01:15:30,200 --> 01:15:34,439 Speaker 1: get the air out right, whereas um, if you seal 1148 01:15:34,479 --> 01:15:37,960 Speaker 1: it inside a vacuum bag, a plastic bag and vacuum 1149 01:15:38,080 --> 01:15:41,519 Speaker 1: seal that, which is how things are done commercially, you've 1150 01:15:41,560 --> 01:15:44,600 Speaker 1: gotten rid of almost all the air that's there, and 1151 01:15:44,680 --> 01:15:48,679 Speaker 1: that will extend the either the shelf life when it's 1152 01:15:48,720 --> 01:15:52,479 Speaker 1: fresh or the shelf life in the freezer as well, 1153 01:15:52,560 --> 01:15:57,479 Speaker 1: because it minimizes that oxidation process. Go ahead, Spencer, So 1154 01:15:58,560 --> 01:16:01,639 Speaker 1: are you replicating that when you freeze something in water? 1155 01:16:01,680 --> 01:16:06,320 Speaker 1: It's very common among fishermen to take a bag of 1156 01:16:06,360 --> 01:16:08,600 Speaker 1: filets and fill it with water and then throw that 1157 01:16:08,640 --> 01:16:10,720 Speaker 1: in your freezer because it doesn't allow any air to 1158 01:16:10,720 --> 01:16:12,400 Speaker 1: come in contact with the meat. Is that doing the 1159 01:16:12,439 --> 01:16:16,120 Speaker 1: same thing, That's the same principle. I would argue you 1160 01:16:16,200 --> 01:16:19,160 Speaker 1: probably still get some air through there, but it would 1161 01:16:19,240 --> 01:16:22,880 Speaker 1: certainly reduce the problem. You know, we used to in 1162 01:16:22,880 --> 01:16:28,120 Speaker 1: the old days, we would just wrap red meat in 1163 01:16:28,680 --> 01:16:32,920 Speaker 1: wax freezer paper, which created all kinds of problem, Like 1164 01:16:32,920 --> 01:16:37,000 Speaker 1: you just get freezer burned corners, you know right now, 1165 01:16:37,920 --> 01:16:40,479 Speaker 1: I'll do one or two things where I typically will 1166 01:16:40,520 --> 01:16:44,840 Speaker 1: wrap it in plastic wrap like saran wrap in order 1167 01:16:44,880 --> 01:16:46,280 Speaker 1: to get all as much of the air out as 1168 01:16:46,280 --> 01:16:49,479 Speaker 1: I can, and then put it in the wax freezer paper, 1169 01:16:49,560 --> 01:16:53,760 Speaker 1: which I think is protective, like protects it the integrity 1170 01:16:53,760 --> 01:16:55,840 Speaker 1: of the plastic wrap underneath when people are like jam 1171 01:16:55,920 --> 01:16:58,960 Speaker 1: you know, shuffling around in the freezer. And also it 1172 01:16:59,400 --> 01:17:05,600 Speaker 1: decreases light or eliminates light from penetrating in um. Do 1173 01:17:05,640 --> 01:17:09,200 Speaker 1: you feel that that system is like a good system 1174 01:17:09,240 --> 01:17:13,760 Speaker 1: for home use. Sure, it's not quite as effective as 1175 01:17:13,800 --> 01:17:18,360 Speaker 1: the vacuum packaging we're talking about, But the secret is, uh, 1176 01:17:18,600 --> 01:17:22,400 Speaker 1: you use the magic words surand. Like everything else, not 1177 01:17:22,520 --> 01:17:27,240 Speaker 1: all plastic wrap is created equal Suran. Suran is an 1178 01:17:27,280 --> 01:17:31,719 Speaker 1: oxygen barrier. And in fact, those those vacuum package bags 1179 01:17:31,720 --> 01:17:35,519 Speaker 1: I'm talking about their layered and the center layer is 1180 01:17:35,720 --> 01:17:40,360 Speaker 1: a surand type product to prevent oxygen from penetrating. Oh, 1181 01:17:40,400 --> 01:17:43,320 Speaker 1: I don't know that there are some plastic wrap that 1182 01:17:43,400 --> 01:17:47,760 Speaker 1: will let air through and we'll let oxygen through and 1183 01:17:47,880 --> 01:17:52,000 Speaker 1: water through, and so it depends on which which plastic 1184 01:17:52,000 --> 01:17:54,439 Speaker 1: wrap you're using. How do you know that you're getting 1185 01:17:54,439 --> 01:17:59,519 Speaker 1: the right kind um. You know, the the easiest way 1186 01:17:59,760 --> 01:18:03,559 Speaker 1: is to uh if it's if it's not necessarily a 1187 01:18:03,560 --> 01:18:07,200 Speaker 1: brand endorsement, but Saran is a brand name for the 1188 01:18:07,240 --> 01:18:11,439 Speaker 1: oxygen barrier film. UM. Oh, I see the other thing 1189 01:18:11,479 --> 01:18:14,840 Speaker 1: you can do UM. For example, if you make like 1190 01:18:15,360 --> 01:18:18,080 Speaker 1: if you take avocados and chop them up and you 1191 01:18:18,200 --> 01:18:21,400 Speaker 1: cover them with plastic wrap. Some of that plastic wrap 1192 01:18:21,439 --> 01:18:24,880 Speaker 1: it will turn brown very very quickly, and others it 1193 01:18:24,960 --> 01:18:29,440 Speaker 1: will not. And so that's an indication of oxygen permeability 1194 01:18:29,479 --> 01:18:32,120 Speaker 1: as well. Kind of an in home science test, if 1195 01:18:32,120 --> 01:18:45,160 Speaker 1: you will. When you saw out a piece of frozen 1196 01:18:45,160 --> 01:18:47,960 Speaker 1: meat like a backstrap and there's all that liquid in 1197 01:18:48,000 --> 01:18:52,280 Speaker 1: the plate, what is that just water? That's water and 1198 01:18:52,479 --> 01:18:55,400 Speaker 1: myl globe. There are a few other proteins that are 1199 01:18:55,400 --> 01:18:58,720 Speaker 1: in their water soluble enzymes. That kind of thing. It 1200 01:18:58,840 --> 01:19:03,160 Speaker 1: doesn't comprom eyes the nutritional quality of the product at all, 1201 01:19:03,479 --> 01:19:06,040 Speaker 1: but there's no reason to hold onto it. You know. 1202 01:19:06,080 --> 01:19:10,639 Speaker 1: The big thing I remind people is um, the rami 1203 01:19:10,840 --> 01:19:12,800 Speaker 1: might be on that plate once you get it cook, 1204 01:19:12,920 --> 01:19:15,560 Speaker 1: make sure you use a clean plate. So would it 1205 01:19:15,720 --> 01:19:19,519 Speaker 1: be a bad practice then to freeze something thought out 1206 01:19:20,240 --> 01:19:22,880 Speaker 1: refreeze it again, and then thought out again, are you 1207 01:19:22,920 --> 01:19:28,200 Speaker 1: creating a worse product? Yes, what happens there? Okay, go on. 1208 01:19:28,840 --> 01:19:32,439 Speaker 1: You're driving moisture from the product. And usually when you 1209 01:19:32,560 --> 01:19:35,200 Speaker 1: thought out, you're exposing it to oxygen, so you're getting 1210 01:19:35,200 --> 01:19:38,719 Speaker 1: more oxidation as well. So both of those things would 1211 01:19:38,760 --> 01:19:43,479 Speaker 1: be uh negative in terms of eating experience, but not 1212 01:19:43,640 --> 01:19:49,040 Speaker 1: a huge negative. Yeah, I mean you can refreez me. Yeah, 1213 01:19:49,120 --> 01:19:51,880 Speaker 1: I do. I like I've long been. I always have 1214 01:19:52,000 --> 01:19:55,200 Speaker 1: people tell me you can't do that. You can't do that, Well, 1215 01:19:55,240 --> 01:19:58,760 Speaker 1: then I should be dead or dead because we did 1216 01:19:58,800 --> 01:20:02,680 Speaker 1: all the time, like well thaw big bags. So if 1217 01:20:02,720 --> 01:20:04,400 Speaker 1: we but let's say you bone a deer like a 1218 01:20:04,439 --> 01:20:08,439 Speaker 1: deer shoulder out. Um, we bone the deer shoulder out, 1219 01:20:08,439 --> 01:20:10,400 Speaker 1: and you don't have time for whatever reason, just because 1220 01:20:10,400 --> 01:20:12,640 Speaker 1: of life, and you put all the meat into a 1221 01:20:12,720 --> 01:20:16,880 Speaker 1: gallon size zip blog bag, squeeze the air out, put 1222 01:20:16,880 --> 01:20:19,559 Speaker 1: in your freezer for whatever a month and then you 1223 01:20:19,600 --> 01:20:23,280 Speaker 1: finally get time. You're gonna make some sausage, pull it 1224 01:20:23,439 --> 01:20:29,120 Speaker 1: back out, thought, make sausage or burger whatever, repackage it, 1225 01:20:29,760 --> 01:20:33,760 Speaker 1: and then it goes back into the freezer. Now I 1226 01:20:34,040 --> 01:20:37,519 Speaker 1: like sure, like something must be lost. But I would 1227 01:20:37,680 --> 01:20:40,040 Speaker 1: if I PEPSI challenged you on it, I don't think 1228 01:20:40,080 --> 01:20:43,880 Speaker 1: you'd be able to pick it out for the most part, 1229 01:20:44,040 --> 01:20:47,360 Speaker 1: those little differences, particularly if you're going from a whole 1230 01:20:47,400 --> 01:20:50,760 Speaker 1: product to a to a ground product. Uh, I think 1231 01:20:50,800 --> 01:20:53,320 Speaker 1: you're safe by doing that. You know, you want to 1232 01:20:53,320 --> 01:20:56,120 Speaker 1: think a little bit about thawing if you're if you're 1233 01:20:56,160 --> 01:20:58,160 Speaker 1: one of those guys who throws it on the kitchen 1234 01:20:58,200 --> 01:21:00,679 Speaker 1: counter and lets it thaw for the rest of the day, 1235 01:21:00,840 --> 01:21:04,479 Speaker 1: if there's any bacteria in there that's not particularly food 1236 01:21:04,520 --> 01:21:09,519 Speaker 1: safety practices we'd want to encourage. I'd say, put it 1237 01:21:09,520 --> 01:21:13,000 Speaker 1: in the fridge, let it get partially thought, cut off 1238 01:21:13,080 --> 01:21:15,559 Speaker 1: what you need, and then refreeze the rest so that 1239 01:21:15,600 --> 01:21:18,400 Speaker 1: you know that you haven't gotten in a temperature zone 1240 01:21:18,400 --> 01:21:21,840 Speaker 1: where lots of extra spoilage bacteria take place. But the 1241 01:21:21,920 --> 01:21:24,840 Speaker 1: practice that you've talked about people take, People do that 1242 01:21:24,920 --> 01:21:27,680 Speaker 1: all the time. You're absolutely right, And I think I 1243 01:21:27,760 --> 01:21:30,040 Speaker 1: was trying to point out that it's a matter of 1244 01:21:30,120 --> 01:21:34,679 Speaker 1: degrees of of of differences, and it's not a binary 1245 01:21:34,800 --> 01:21:38,280 Speaker 1: yes no, do don't live by kind of decision on 1246 01:21:38,360 --> 01:21:42,680 Speaker 1: that thing. Chris, what is the science say about marinating me? 1247 01:21:42,920 --> 01:21:47,240 Speaker 1: Can you get a liquid to penetrate like a roast 1248 01:21:47,600 --> 01:21:52,840 Speaker 1: and change the flavor of it. Yeah, So there's two 1249 01:21:52,880 --> 01:21:57,040 Speaker 1: reasons to marinate. One is to change flavor and one 1250 01:21:57,160 --> 01:22:00,240 Speaker 1: is to tenderize the meat. And so if you're going 1251 01:22:00,280 --> 01:22:04,120 Speaker 1: to change flavor, then pretty much whatever flavor you like, 1252 01:22:04,600 --> 01:22:06,960 Speaker 1: you can marinate the meat for an hour or two. 1253 01:22:07,120 --> 01:22:10,400 Speaker 1: You'll get a nice surface coating and uh, and it 1254 01:22:10,439 --> 01:22:14,280 Speaker 1: will alter the taste of the product and you're cooking, 1255 01:22:14,320 --> 01:22:16,680 Speaker 1: and that's that's easy. You can do that with We 1256 01:22:16,760 --> 01:22:19,479 Speaker 1: do similar things with dry rubs, right where you just 1257 01:22:19,800 --> 01:22:23,160 Speaker 1: rub the spices on the outside and so forth. Um. 1258 01:22:23,240 --> 01:22:25,040 Speaker 1: But most of the time when we think and meat 1259 01:22:25,080 --> 01:22:28,280 Speaker 1: science about marinating, we're thinking about how are you making 1260 01:22:28,320 --> 01:22:31,519 Speaker 1: that meat more tender. The secret goes back to that 1261 01:22:31,560 --> 01:22:35,400 Speaker 1: connective tissue, that silvery tissue on the outside that goes 1262 01:22:35,520 --> 01:22:38,920 Speaker 1: throughout the whole muscle. You can think of that connective 1263 01:22:38,920 --> 01:22:42,400 Speaker 1: tissue like a fish net or like a harness, so 1264 01:22:42,439 --> 01:22:46,719 Speaker 1: that when the individual cell contracts, that connective tissue moves 1265 01:22:46,800 --> 01:22:49,559 Speaker 1: with it, and that's how we get movement of the 1266 01:22:49,600 --> 01:22:52,519 Speaker 1: whole body or the whole arm as a result of 1267 01:22:52,600 --> 01:22:56,160 Speaker 1: contraction in the live animal. So when you marinate, you 1268 01:22:56,240 --> 01:23:01,519 Speaker 1: want to tenderize that connective tissue. That works best if 1269 01:23:01,600 --> 01:23:05,840 Speaker 1: you have an acid based marinate, so a wine or 1270 01:23:05,880 --> 01:23:09,040 Speaker 1: a vinegar, or a citric kind of a base, even 1271 01:23:09,120 --> 01:23:13,920 Speaker 1: a soy sauce. Those kinds of marinades will enhance the 1272 01:23:13,960 --> 01:23:17,920 Speaker 1: tenderness of the product. The secret, as you just pointed out, 1273 01:23:18,120 --> 01:23:21,200 Speaker 1: is how deep and how far does that really penetrate 1274 01:23:21,280 --> 01:23:23,840 Speaker 1: into the muscle. And I tell you it doesn't go 1275 01:23:24,040 --> 01:23:26,840 Speaker 1: that far. Right, you can you can marinate for eight 1276 01:23:26,840 --> 01:23:29,800 Speaker 1: hours and only be an eighth or a quarter of 1277 01:23:29,880 --> 01:23:32,559 Speaker 1: an inch into the tissue. So it's best if you 1278 01:23:32,680 --> 01:23:36,720 Speaker 1: marinate thinner, smaller pieces. Uh, if you want to get 1279 01:23:36,760 --> 01:23:40,240 Speaker 1: real sophisticated, you can. You can get a syringe and 1280 01:23:40,280 --> 01:23:43,040 Speaker 1: you can actually inject some of that marinate into a 1281 01:23:43,120 --> 01:23:46,160 Speaker 1: larger a larger piece of meat, and that will work 1282 01:23:46,200 --> 01:23:49,559 Speaker 1: as well. Um. The last thing on marinades I would 1283 01:23:49,560 --> 01:23:54,719 Speaker 1: mention is that there are some um, some fruits that 1284 01:23:54,800 --> 01:23:59,120 Speaker 1: have enzymes in them that tender eyed meat. And so 1285 01:23:59,200 --> 01:24:06,559 Speaker 1: for example, kiwi fruit or raw pineapple, even papaya and figs, 1286 01:24:07,160 --> 01:24:10,120 Speaker 1: all of those have enzymes that will attack the meat. 1287 01:24:10,400 --> 01:24:14,520 Speaker 1: Now if it's canned pineapple, well by canning, you've inactivated 1288 01:24:14,560 --> 01:24:18,919 Speaker 1: the enzyme. It doesn't work anymore as a fresh product. 1289 01:24:19,240 --> 01:24:22,719 Speaker 1: If you add that to the to the to the dish, 1290 01:24:22,840 --> 01:24:25,360 Speaker 1: you can tenderize meat in that way. You know, you 1291 01:24:25,439 --> 01:24:27,639 Speaker 1: might give me an answer here that I don't believe, 1292 01:24:27,880 --> 01:24:33,840 Speaker 1: and Noah's wrong. But can you increase moisture by marinating 1293 01:24:33,960 --> 01:24:37,599 Speaker 1: or brining? This is a hot debate in the culinary world. 1294 01:24:38,720 --> 01:24:43,160 Speaker 1: I'm not sure whether you would increase for marinating. You 1295 01:24:43,240 --> 01:24:45,200 Speaker 1: might be able to get a little bit more moisture 1296 01:24:45,240 --> 01:24:48,240 Speaker 1: in there, but you know you're trying to get water 1297 01:24:48,400 --> 01:24:53,439 Speaker 1: to move from to a place that's already moisture. So 1298 01:24:53,920 --> 01:24:56,520 Speaker 1: I wouldn't think you get very much of an effect 1299 01:24:57,320 --> 01:25:01,880 Speaker 1: just by marinating to enhance moisture. If you're brining, look, 1300 01:25:01,960 --> 01:25:04,720 Speaker 1: salt drives out meat, right, That's how we used to 1301 01:25:04,800 --> 01:25:07,839 Speaker 1: preserve meat years and years ago. It's packet and salt, 1302 01:25:08,320 --> 01:25:12,280 Speaker 1: and so salt tends to draw moisture out of the product. Now, 1303 01:25:12,320 --> 01:25:14,679 Speaker 1: if you mix up a salt solution and you injected 1304 01:25:14,760 --> 01:25:17,840 Speaker 1: in the meat, okay, you've added more moisture there. But 1305 01:25:18,040 --> 01:25:21,120 Speaker 1: if you're just putting a piece of meat into a brine, 1306 01:25:21,760 --> 01:25:25,360 Speaker 1: the the you're getting a reverse effect. You're getting moisture 1307 01:25:25,439 --> 01:25:29,760 Speaker 1: pulled out. But don't they like don't they sell you 1308 01:25:29,760 --> 01:25:32,600 Speaker 1: know how? Sometimes Uh, you can get a turkey and 1309 01:25:32,640 --> 01:25:36,880 Speaker 1: it actually has an ingredients list because they've they've they 1310 01:25:36,960 --> 01:25:40,920 Speaker 1: injected with us A brine, yes, and and that's like 1311 01:25:41,000 --> 01:25:43,599 Speaker 1: specifically to make it moist right, But that's just you're 1312 01:25:43,640 --> 01:25:47,400 Speaker 1: just like physically sticking water there. Yes, but you're you're 1313 01:25:47,479 --> 01:25:52,160 Speaker 1: also adding salt, which is a great flavor potentiator, right. 1314 01:25:52,520 --> 01:25:56,519 Speaker 1: It enhances flavor. And so if you give somebody a 1315 01:25:56,520 --> 01:25:59,640 Speaker 1: piece of meat with salt and without salt most of 1316 01:25:59,640 --> 01:26:01,280 Speaker 1: the time, and they'll tell you the one with salt 1317 01:26:01,320 --> 01:26:06,599 Speaker 1: taste better, is more tender, more juicy, more flavorful. Plus 1318 01:26:06,640 --> 01:26:11,000 Speaker 1: there are other ingredients that go into that that turkey 1319 01:26:11,080 --> 01:26:14,439 Speaker 1: that would help the moistures stay in the meat instead 1320 01:26:14,479 --> 01:26:17,800 Speaker 1: of just run out. So it's a it's I think 1321 01:26:17,840 --> 01:26:20,599 Speaker 1: we're dealing with the difference in terminology here and what 1322 01:26:20,640 --> 01:26:23,360 Speaker 1: you're really doing and how it's getting done. What if 1323 01:26:23,400 --> 01:26:29,040 Speaker 1: you like pulverize kiwi and pineapple and you put some 1324 01:26:29,160 --> 01:26:32,520 Speaker 1: meat in a bowl of that, so there's no sodium, 1325 01:26:32,600 --> 01:26:34,840 Speaker 1: so you're not having water come out of it, but 1326 01:26:34,920 --> 01:26:39,600 Speaker 1: you're having it in an enzyme bath of liquid. You 1327 01:26:40,680 --> 01:26:44,439 Speaker 1: I tell you that I have cooked meat with on 1328 01:26:44,520 --> 01:26:48,760 Speaker 1: a skillet with kiwi. Before that I could eat with 1329 01:26:48,800 --> 01:26:56,840 Speaker 1: a spoon. Maybe that's it wasn't very good because because 1330 01:26:56,880 --> 01:27:03,560 Speaker 1: it was much, it was much by aging. Um it 1331 01:27:03,640 --> 01:27:09,519 Speaker 1: must be real like dry aging is beneficial. It us 1332 01:27:09,560 --> 01:27:14,600 Speaker 1: with some dues and don't well so. Um, when you 1333 01:27:14,680 --> 01:27:19,040 Speaker 1: are aging, you are allowing the enzymes that are naturally 1334 01:27:19,080 --> 01:27:22,160 Speaker 1: present within the meat to break down the protein that 1335 01:27:22,400 --> 01:27:26,639 Speaker 1: enhances tenderness. So if you you could age in one 1336 01:27:26,680 --> 01:27:30,599 Speaker 1: of those vacuum bags where almost no moisture comes out, 1337 01:27:31,200 --> 01:27:35,360 Speaker 1: or you can age in air. If you're aging in air, 1338 01:27:35,479 --> 01:27:38,400 Speaker 1: we call it dry aging. If you're aging in one 1339 01:27:38,439 --> 01:27:42,320 Speaker 1: of those vacuum packages, we call it wet aging. And 1340 01:27:42,400 --> 01:27:47,240 Speaker 1: in both cases the tenderization process is the same. And 1341 01:27:47,400 --> 01:27:50,560 Speaker 1: as I said earlier, you'll get the great benefit and 1342 01:27:50,640 --> 01:27:54,000 Speaker 1: the first week or so or two, and then after 1343 01:27:54,040 --> 01:27:58,280 Speaker 1: that the benefits of aging are reduced. You don't see, 1344 01:27:58,800 --> 01:28:02,240 Speaker 1: you've already tender eye it to a large extent, to 1345 01:28:02,320 --> 01:28:04,960 Speaker 1: the to the most that it will occur. It will 1346 01:28:05,000 --> 01:28:09,760 Speaker 1: continue to improve, but not very much. Um so from 1347 01:28:09,800 --> 01:28:14,519 Speaker 1: an aging standpoint. For tenderness. It's enzymes do the work. 1348 01:28:15,320 --> 01:28:20,280 Speaker 1: When we dry age, We're putting meat, typically on a rack, 1349 01:28:21,040 --> 01:28:23,719 Speaker 1: and we leave it set for a period of time. 1350 01:28:24,520 --> 01:28:28,240 Speaker 1: And what happens is the moisture on the surface of 1351 01:28:28,320 --> 01:28:34,880 Speaker 1: that evaporates fairly quickly. In fact, over three or four days, Uh, 1352 01:28:34,960 --> 01:28:37,679 Speaker 1: you will you can get a very nice dry crust 1353 01:28:37,760 --> 01:28:41,200 Speaker 1: on the outside of that meat. The longer you store 1354 01:28:41,400 --> 01:28:47,479 Speaker 1: after that, you will still lose moisture. And um. Two 1355 01:28:47,520 --> 01:28:51,520 Speaker 1: things happened during that aging period from a taste standpoint, 1356 01:28:52,080 --> 01:28:56,240 Speaker 1: One is you're concentrating the flavors because you're removing water 1357 01:28:56,720 --> 01:29:00,479 Speaker 1: and everything else stays behind. But the other thing is 1358 01:29:00,479 --> 01:29:05,479 Speaker 1: is you're actually creating flavors. Proteins get broken down into 1359 01:29:05,520 --> 01:29:10,080 Speaker 1: amino acids, and some amino acids are like the ingredients 1360 01:29:10,120 --> 01:29:16,760 Speaker 1: in MSG. There there their flavor potentiators as well enhancers. Uh. 1361 01:29:16,840 --> 01:29:20,920 Speaker 1: You get some oxidation flavors that go on as you 1362 01:29:21,040 --> 01:29:24,479 Speaker 1: dry age as well. So the taste of a dry 1363 01:29:24,520 --> 01:29:27,920 Speaker 1: age piece of meat is profoundly different than the taste 1364 01:29:28,240 --> 01:29:32,920 Speaker 1: of a wet aged piece of meat. So I think, uh, 1365 01:29:33,040 --> 01:29:36,240 Speaker 1: like a lot of other things, if someone says I'm 1366 01:29:36,240 --> 01:29:39,760 Speaker 1: going to dry age, they need to understand why they're 1367 01:29:39,880 --> 01:29:43,760 Speaker 1: dry aging, what they're going to accomplish when they do that. Now, 1368 01:29:43,840 --> 01:29:47,679 Speaker 1: when you dry age, you lose the weight I mentioned 1369 01:29:47,680 --> 01:29:51,760 Speaker 1: before cent or more. But then you've also got this 1370 01:29:51,880 --> 01:29:54,400 Speaker 1: hard crust on the outside that you've got to trim 1371 01:29:54,439 --> 01:29:56,360 Speaker 1: off and throw away. Do you guys ever call that 1372 01:29:56,479 --> 01:30:01,400 Speaker 1: the rind? Yeah? That it's so you're talking about maybe 1373 01:30:01,400 --> 01:30:05,479 Speaker 1: another fiftent. So you're probably gonna lose of the weight 1374 01:30:05,520 --> 01:30:10,680 Speaker 1: of that muscle when you dry age. You know. A 1375 01:30:10,720 --> 01:30:14,280 Speaker 1: guy once served me a piece of ad dad. It 1376 01:30:14,400 --> 01:30:16,800 Speaker 1: was like he had an odd dad shoulder that he 1377 01:30:16,840 --> 01:30:22,320 Speaker 1: had aged for eighteen months, And once you got through 1378 01:30:22,320 --> 01:30:24,680 Speaker 1: all the dried out stuff, there was a strip of 1379 01:30:24,720 --> 01:30:27,640 Speaker 1: meat inside there. There was about the size of a 1380 01:30:27,680 --> 01:30:33,280 Speaker 1: cigar and it tastes like blue cheese. I mean, it 1381 01:30:33,400 --> 01:30:38,120 Speaker 1: was the cheesiest, strongest, most potent thing. Um. He was 1382 01:30:38,160 --> 01:30:40,920 Speaker 1: just kind of experiment with how long can you how 1383 01:30:40,920 --> 01:30:42,720 Speaker 1: long can you go? But that felt like a real 1384 01:30:42,760 --> 01:30:46,040 Speaker 1: Petrie dish, you know, but no ill effect. We ate 1385 01:30:46,080 --> 01:30:53,840 Speaker 1: it raw. My goodness, your ban is mold always a 1386 01:30:53,880 --> 01:30:59,080 Speaker 1: bad sign when you're dry aging something. No, um, but 1387 01:31:00,040 --> 01:31:05,400 Speaker 1: it makes me nervous. Some mold can be toxic, particularly 1388 01:31:05,439 --> 01:31:09,400 Speaker 1: the black molds. There is a gray mold that tends 1389 01:31:09,439 --> 01:31:14,080 Speaker 1: to come on, and some dry aging experts will say 1390 01:31:14,120 --> 01:31:18,960 Speaker 1: that that enhances or alters the flavor. Incidentally, they've done 1391 01:31:18,960 --> 01:31:22,639 Speaker 1: some testing on some molds and one of them is 1392 01:31:22,760 --> 01:31:26,840 Speaker 1: associated with blue cheese. It's the same kind of mold 1393 01:31:26,880 --> 01:31:30,519 Speaker 1: that can take place. But I would emphasize you don't 1394 01:31:30,600 --> 01:31:33,679 Speaker 1: have to have mold to have a very good dry 1395 01:31:33,720 --> 01:31:36,840 Speaker 1: age product. In fact, I sort of feel like if 1396 01:31:36,840 --> 01:31:40,200 Speaker 1: you've got mold, to me, that's an indication that maybe 1397 01:31:40,280 --> 01:31:44,320 Speaker 1: you don't have the most sanitary cleaning system set up 1398 01:31:44,680 --> 01:31:47,000 Speaker 1: before you started to dry edge in the first place. 1399 01:31:47,240 --> 01:31:50,040 Speaker 1: I'm not a big fan of mold, but I'll tell 1400 01:31:50,040 --> 01:31:53,640 Speaker 1: you there are some scientists who say it does accentuate 1401 01:31:53,760 --> 01:31:55,960 Speaker 1: and add a little bit to the flavor as well. 1402 01:31:56,240 --> 01:31:58,080 Speaker 1: A friend of mine who is a chef, he always 1403 01:31:58,120 --> 01:32:00,560 Speaker 1: advised me that the only mold that there's him is 1404 01:32:00,600 --> 01:32:05,479 Speaker 1: the black fuzzy kind, So that that's that's true, not 1405 01:32:05,520 --> 01:32:08,759 Speaker 1: the only one with that black fuzzy is bad. That's correct. 1406 01:32:10,360 --> 01:32:14,639 Speaker 1: What about aging temperature, I always hear uh Butcher stress 1407 01:32:14,720 --> 01:32:18,759 Speaker 1: that you shouldn't let the ambient temperature get below freezing 1408 01:32:18,880 --> 01:32:22,080 Speaker 1: because it slows down the aging process, so you're not 1409 01:32:22,120 --> 01:32:25,320 Speaker 1: accomplishing what you're trying to do. What is like the 1410 01:32:25,360 --> 01:32:30,559 Speaker 1: ideal temperature for aging meat. Yeah, that's exactly right. If 1411 01:32:30,600 --> 01:32:34,000 Speaker 1: it's frozen water, it's not gonna move right very easily, 1412 01:32:34,560 --> 01:32:37,400 Speaker 1: and so you want to be above freezing. I would 1413 01:32:37,479 --> 01:32:40,280 Speaker 1: say thirty four or thirty five degrees or somewhere in 1414 01:32:40,320 --> 01:32:43,040 Speaker 1: that ballpark would be about right. If you get much 1415 01:32:43,120 --> 01:32:47,080 Speaker 1: higher than that, then you start to get bacterial growth 1416 01:32:47,120 --> 01:32:49,080 Speaker 1: and the rest of that. What's it what's the real 1417 01:32:49,200 --> 01:32:54,519 Speaker 1: danger zone? Well, anything over forty for certain would be 1418 01:32:54,720 --> 01:33:00,559 Speaker 1: too high. Um, but but if you're gonna aren't for 1419 01:33:01,200 --> 01:33:05,360 Speaker 1: a week or two, I would I would shoot for 1420 01:33:05,400 --> 01:33:10,080 Speaker 1: the mid thirties frankly, for that very reason. If you 1421 01:33:10,120 --> 01:33:13,400 Speaker 1: have here's the secret. If it starts to get slimy, 1422 01:33:14,520 --> 01:33:21,160 Speaker 1: that's bacterial growth. And if it's dry then um, and 1423 01:33:21,240 --> 01:33:25,200 Speaker 1: it's not slimy, then you have less bacterial growth. It's 1424 01:33:25,240 --> 01:33:29,280 Speaker 1: not zero, but you have much less spoilage bacteria growing. 1425 01:33:29,320 --> 01:33:32,439 Speaker 1: If it's not slimy, then if it is, you know, 1426 01:33:32,520 --> 01:33:37,759 Speaker 1: there are certain little tricks that people try where um, 1427 01:33:37,840 --> 01:33:41,000 Speaker 1: they'll say, like out in the field, you can rub 1428 01:33:42,439 --> 01:33:46,600 Speaker 1: black pepper all over a quarter to help preserve it. 1429 01:33:46,720 --> 01:33:51,000 Speaker 1: Or do people make these little packages. It's some kind 1430 01:33:51,000 --> 01:33:53,120 Speaker 1: of I don't know what. It's, some kind of acid 1431 01:33:53,200 --> 01:33:56,200 Speaker 1: or something. It looks like a little drink package and 1432 01:33:56,240 --> 01:33:58,800 Speaker 1: you mix that in the water bottle and shake it up. 1433 01:33:58,840 --> 01:34:01,080 Speaker 1: I've messed and stuff and isn't happy with the results 1434 01:34:01,120 --> 01:34:03,280 Speaker 1: because it kind of look like if you put lime 1435 01:34:03,360 --> 01:34:06,080 Speaker 1: juice all over meat. But anyways, they shake it up 1436 01:34:06,200 --> 01:34:09,880 Speaker 1: and you bathe a quarter meat and that stuff and 1437 01:34:09,920 --> 01:34:15,160 Speaker 1: it's supposed to inhibit inhibit bacterial growth or any do 1438 01:34:15,200 --> 01:34:17,639 Speaker 1: you think do you would you have faith in any 1439 01:34:17,640 --> 01:34:22,040 Speaker 1: of these methods as actually accomplishing anything. I'm not too 1440 01:34:22,160 --> 01:34:26,880 Speaker 1: enthusiastic about pepper from a preservative standpoint, but I will 1441 01:34:26,920 --> 01:34:32,679 Speaker 1: tell you that in fact, light organic acid will reduce 1442 01:34:32,720 --> 01:34:36,759 Speaker 1: bacteria on the surface. In fact that that's commercially done 1443 01:34:36,800 --> 01:34:40,920 Speaker 1: as well. A light mist usually a lactic acid or 1444 01:34:40,960 --> 01:34:44,200 Speaker 1: a citric acid for example, could work as well. Tends 1445 01:34:44,280 --> 01:34:48,880 Speaker 1: to reduce spoilia bacteria and um. I know that sometimes 1446 01:34:49,200 --> 01:34:52,160 Speaker 1: the surface of the meat will get that lime juice 1447 01:34:52,200 --> 01:34:54,559 Speaker 1: appearance you're talking about, where it kind of looks washed 1448 01:34:54,560 --> 01:34:57,719 Speaker 1: out and the most of that, but that's only surface. 1449 01:34:59,040 --> 01:35:01,559 Speaker 1: By the time you hook it, you won't even know 1450 01:35:01,640 --> 01:35:04,479 Speaker 1: that that acid was there. You know, I realized I 1451 01:35:04,520 --> 01:35:06,559 Speaker 1: misspoke and I didn't, and I caught it when you 1452 01:35:06,560 --> 01:35:09,559 Speaker 1: mentioned it is when we did this, you were right. 1453 01:35:09,600 --> 01:35:12,600 Speaker 1: It was in the spray bottle. Yeah, it was. It 1454 01:35:12,640 --> 01:35:14,679 Speaker 1: was a product that you mix in a spray bottle. 1455 01:35:14,960 --> 01:35:18,080 Speaker 1: And and it's funny because what turned me off was 1456 01:35:18,120 --> 01:35:21,720 Speaker 1: that lime juicy look. But I didn't think about the 1457 01:35:21,720 --> 01:35:26,040 Speaker 1: fact that that was very surface level. Yeah that's pretty 1458 01:35:26,040 --> 01:35:28,519 Speaker 1: it's pretty thin layer. But that's really all you need. 1459 01:35:28,760 --> 01:35:32,280 Speaker 1: The bigger challenge for me is you could do that, 1460 01:35:33,040 --> 01:35:39,200 Speaker 1: but now you've got a carcass that's low in bacteria load, 1461 01:35:39,960 --> 01:35:42,479 Speaker 1: what do you do with it? Right If you're gonna 1462 01:35:42,520 --> 01:35:44,040 Speaker 1: go lay it in the bed of a pickup and 1463 01:35:44,160 --> 01:35:47,759 Speaker 1: drive it home, you sort of kind of worked against 1464 01:35:47,840 --> 01:35:51,679 Speaker 1: yourself right now. Maybe a better way would be take 1465 01:35:51,720 --> 01:35:56,120 Speaker 1: it home and hang it and then spray right once 1466 01:35:56,160 --> 01:36:00,800 Speaker 1: you're done transporting it. Once you're done with transport, i'llternatively, 1467 01:36:01,000 --> 01:36:05,120 Speaker 1: alternatively go ahead and get the animal, but leave the 1468 01:36:05,200 --> 01:36:07,400 Speaker 1: hide on and don't take the hide off till you 1469 01:36:07,479 --> 01:36:10,280 Speaker 1: get home. Then when you take the hide off, you 1470 01:36:10,280 --> 01:36:14,640 Speaker 1: can spray it and be ready to go. I realized that, uh, 1471 01:36:14,640 --> 01:36:17,280 Speaker 1: an animal that's gone into rigor mortis is harder to skin, 1472 01:36:17,360 --> 01:36:20,719 Speaker 1: of course, so there's the downside of that. Oh yeah, 1473 01:36:20,840 --> 01:36:23,560 Speaker 1: man is getting nice when they're brand new. Yeah, you 1474 01:36:23,840 --> 01:36:26,840 Speaker 1: bet um, Chris, what do you mind talking a bit 1475 01:36:26,920 --> 01:36:31,120 Speaker 1: about some of the research that you've been doing and 1476 01:36:31,160 --> 01:36:33,760 Speaker 1: some of the work you've been doing recently in any 1477 01:36:33,760 --> 01:36:38,439 Speaker 1: new discoveries there. So yeah, there's two, probably three or 1478 01:36:38,479 --> 01:36:41,120 Speaker 1: four things I can talk about here. I'll do this briefly, 1479 01:36:41,160 --> 01:36:43,599 Speaker 1: and if you have questions, we can go deeper. We 1480 01:36:43,800 --> 01:36:49,800 Speaker 1: have built in our laboratory twelve dry aging chambers that 1481 01:36:49,920 --> 01:36:54,720 Speaker 1: are um the most tightly controlled dry aging chambers in 1482 01:36:54,760 --> 01:36:59,880 Speaker 1: the world. We can control relative humidity, we can control airspeed, 1483 01:37:00,600 --> 01:37:04,880 Speaker 1: we can control level of oxygen. We can measure the 1484 01:37:05,040 --> 01:37:11,320 Speaker 1: weight of the meat once a second for six weeks 1485 01:37:11,360 --> 01:37:13,720 Speaker 1: if we want to do that, and of course it's 1486 01:37:13,760 --> 01:37:17,080 Speaker 1: in a cooler where we can control temperature. There's a 1487 01:37:17,160 --> 01:37:21,800 Speaker 1: lot of lore about dry age, a lot of art, 1488 01:37:22,120 --> 01:37:26,000 Speaker 1: if you will, but we're trying to push science forward, 1489 01:37:26,400 --> 01:37:29,760 Speaker 1: and so we've learned a lot about how moisture moves 1490 01:37:29,760 --> 01:37:33,120 Speaker 1: out of that meat, a lot of people think, for example, 1491 01:37:33,200 --> 01:37:37,720 Speaker 1: that rind or that crust prevents moisture loss. It does not. 1492 01:37:39,160 --> 01:37:42,920 Speaker 1: We're learning a lot of different things about dry agent 1493 01:37:43,000 --> 01:37:45,920 Speaker 1: that has not been seen before, and we continue to 1494 01:37:46,560 --> 01:37:49,920 Speaker 1: do that kind of work. We also have some work 1495 01:37:49,960 --> 01:37:53,800 Speaker 1: we just finished up, uh that if you if you 1496 01:37:53,800 --> 01:37:57,800 Speaker 1: think about these meal kit services, um, you get a 1497 01:37:58,000 --> 01:38:00,280 Speaker 1: you get a package of meeting there and must time 1498 01:38:00,280 --> 01:38:04,519 Speaker 1: that package meat is brown. It's not very attractive in color. 1499 01:38:04,960 --> 01:38:07,960 Speaker 1: And so we did a whole project on how do 1500 01:38:08,080 --> 01:38:12,800 Speaker 1: you maintain bright red color in frozen meat? And so 1501 01:38:12,920 --> 01:38:15,080 Speaker 1: there's some tricks you can do if you understand the 1502 01:38:15,080 --> 01:38:20,559 Speaker 1: biology to do that. We have uh, A lot of 1503 01:38:20,640 --> 01:38:25,240 Speaker 1: people feed different kinds of feed to animals, and we 1504 01:38:25,320 --> 01:38:28,719 Speaker 1: are where this is really deep biochemistry. But we're looking 1505 01:38:28,760 --> 01:38:32,639 Speaker 1: at the chemistry now of what happens during that rigor 1506 01:38:32,680 --> 01:38:37,200 Speaker 1: mortis process and right after that that tenderizes meat. So 1507 01:38:37,280 --> 01:38:40,240 Speaker 1: we're looking at the enzymes and how that whole process 1508 01:38:40,320 --> 01:38:45,120 Speaker 1: gets controlled. And then lastly, UM, we did a project 1509 01:38:45,200 --> 01:38:48,719 Speaker 1: here um it's been a number of years now where 1510 01:38:48,800 --> 01:38:52,640 Speaker 1: we went through and characterized with a group of scientists, 1511 01:38:52,720 --> 01:38:56,600 Speaker 1: not just me. We characterize a lot of different muscles 1512 01:38:56,600 --> 01:39:00,719 Speaker 1: in the beef carcass. Out of that, the flat iron 1513 01:39:00,880 --> 01:39:04,599 Speaker 1: steak was identified. There were a number of other cuts 1514 01:39:04,640 --> 01:39:07,280 Speaker 1: as well, but that's probably the one that's most well known. 1515 01:39:07,720 --> 01:39:11,240 Speaker 1: And so when when we do research in my laboratory, 1516 01:39:11,640 --> 01:39:16,760 Speaker 1: I'm I'm a quality oriented scientists in meats, and so 1517 01:39:16,920 --> 01:39:20,000 Speaker 1: I'm looking at meat quality from the standpoint of of 1518 01:39:20,560 --> 01:39:24,240 Speaker 1: what makes that product taste better, what, what gives it 1519 01:39:24,320 --> 01:39:27,680 Speaker 1: better flavor, what makes it more tender, what makes it 1520 01:39:28,439 --> 01:39:32,360 Speaker 1: longer shelf life, what gives us the right color, what 1521 01:39:32,479 --> 01:39:36,040 Speaker 1: gives us the optimal use of that animal? And we 1522 01:39:36,120 --> 01:39:41,120 Speaker 1: talked before about respecting the products that we get, and um, 1523 01:39:41,479 --> 01:39:46,519 Speaker 1: I get frustrated when we use the wrong muscle for 1524 01:39:46,600 --> 01:39:51,600 Speaker 1: the wrong recipe because you are either undervaluing one or 1525 01:39:51,760 --> 01:39:55,040 Speaker 1: overvaluing the other one. And so trying to make sure 1526 01:39:55,400 --> 01:39:57,839 Speaker 1: that we use the right part in the right place, 1527 01:39:57,920 --> 01:40:01,800 Speaker 1: in the right way. And and to me, that is 1528 01:40:01,840 --> 01:40:04,200 Speaker 1: a win win win. It's a win for the people 1529 01:40:04,240 --> 01:40:07,320 Speaker 1: who produce the animals, it's a it's a win for 1530 01:40:07,360 --> 01:40:10,559 Speaker 1: the people that are marketing those products, and best of all, 1531 01:40:10,600 --> 01:40:14,480 Speaker 1: it's a win for those people who are consuming those products. 1532 01:40:14,880 --> 01:40:18,639 Speaker 1: I think the same thing about your listeners quite Honestly, 1533 01:40:19,120 --> 01:40:22,439 Speaker 1: they've They've gone to expense, they've gone to energy, they've 1534 01:40:22,479 --> 01:40:25,960 Speaker 1: gone to effort to go out and get them an animal. 1535 01:40:26,240 --> 01:40:29,120 Speaker 1: And part of it is the experience which we all enjoy, 1536 01:40:29,280 --> 01:40:31,439 Speaker 1: hiking and being outside and all the rest of that. 1537 01:40:31,960 --> 01:40:34,400 Speaker 1: But I would love for them to end up with 1538 01:40:34,439 --> 01:40:38,040 Speaker 1: the highest quality product they can so that the ultimate 1539 01:40:38,280 --> 01:40:41,240 Speaker 1: end of the experience is a very satisfying one as well. 1540 01:40:41,640 --> 01:40:43,920 Speaker 1: You know, Chris, you I don't think we talked about this. 1541 01:40:43,960 --> 01:40:47,560 Speaker 1: What school are you at? University? I'm at the University 1542 01:40:47,600 --> 01:40:50,760 Speaker 1: of Nebraska in the Animal science department. Okay, so I 1543 01:40:50,800 --> 01:40:54,800 Speaker 1: know you guys got snapper turtles there. Now, when you 1544 01:40:54,960 --> 01:40:57,920 Speaker 1: steer you talk about different muscle groups, right, like different 1545 01:40:58,160 --> 01:41:00,840 Speaker 1: the qualities of different muscles. When you dear one of 1546 01:41:00,880 --> 01:41:04,120 Speaker 1: your graduate students you have graduate students, yes, okay, when 1547 01:41:04,160 --> 01:41:08,960 Speaker 1: you steer one of them into snapping turtle work, I 1548 01:41:09,040 --> 01:41:12,240 Speaker 1: want you to remind them that it is lower amongst 1549 01:41:12,280 --> 01:41:15,479 Speaker 1: snapping turtle people that there are is it five or seven? 1550 01:41:15,800 --> 01:41:22,320 Speaker 1: There are there are seven distinct meats inside of a 1551 01:41:22,320 --> 01:41:26,960 Speaker 1: snapping turtle. So since it's low all low hanging fruit 1552 01:41:27,000 --> 01:41:29,719 Speaker 1: and snapping turtle meat research, that might be a good 1553 01:41:29,880 --> 01:41:33,880 Speaker 1: dissertation would be like you'll have to think of how 1554 01:41:33,920 --> 01:41:35,719 Speaker 1: to how you have to think of a good title 1555 01:41:35,720 --> 01:41:39,519 Speaker 1: for the dissertation, but it would be something like, um uh, 1556 01:41:39,560 --> 01:41:44,360 Speaker 1: testing the qualitative. Yeah, they're out of the seven kinds 1557 01:41:44,360 --> 01:41:47,559 Speaker 1: of snapping turtle meat. Well, I first of all, I 1558 01:41:47,640 --> 01:41:53,960 Speaker 1: have to locate the Snapping Turtle Meat Foundation. They have 1559 01:41:54,080 --> 01:41:58,200 Speaker 1: deep pockets, Chris, don't worry, Spencer and I will start 1560 01:41:58,240 --> 01:42:01,800 Speaker 1: that organization now and do some fundraising so we can 1561 01:42:01,920 --> 01:42:04,519 Speaker 1: fund the research. I've never known what they mean by 1562 01:42:04,560 --> 01:42:08,400 Speaker 1: the seven times. I don't like pork, chicken, beef, things 1563 01:42:08,439 --> 01:42:11,080 Speaker 1: like that. But there's there's well to their credit, to 1564 01:42:11,160 --> 01:42:15,360 Speaker 1: their credit, to the to the to the it looks 1565 01:42:15,479 --> 01:42:17,800 Speaker 1: like I'm talking just looking at it, like you know 1566 01:42:17,920 --> 01:42:20,479 Speaker 1: the backstraps that run down the inside of a turtle, 1567 01:42:20,520 --> 01:42:25,040 Speaker 1: inside that little honeycomb bone, very very white, very string. 1568 01:42:25,120 --> 01:42:27,519 Speaker 1: You can tear it apart by hand. Then like their 1569 01:42:27,600 --> 01:42:32,600 Speaker 1: legs have some intensely dark meat. The neck is visually 1570 01:42:32,760 --> 01:42:35,599 Speaker 1: very different. There's something there. Chris, as student will find 1571 01:42:35,640 --> 01:42:39,280 Speaker 1: it and you'll report back to us, and then Chris 1572 01:42:39,280 --> 01:42:43,080 Speaker 1: probably do some dry aging on turtle studies. You know, 1573 01:42:44,080 --> 01:42:47,440 Speaker 1: I'm also tell you this story that I was contacted 1574 01:42:47,520 --> 01:42:50,960 Speaker 1: a number of years ago by scientists who is working 1575 01:42:51,040 --> 01:42:55,559 Speaker 1: in Latin America, and he was looking at, uh, what 1576 01:42:55,600 --> 01:42:59,960 Speaker 1: was the motivation for hunters. They would go out hunt 1577 01:43:00,040 --> 01:43:03,720 Speaker 1: saying bush meat, and they would go out hunting monkeys, 1578 01:43:04,320 --> 01:43:08,280 Speaker 1: and they would walk by holler monkeys and they would 1579 01:43:08,360 --> 01:43:11,080 Speaker 1: hike for a week in order to get spider monkeys, 1580 01:43:11,880 --> 01:43:15,160 Speaker 1: and and he was trying to figure out how much 1581 01:43:15,360 --> 01:43:19,519 Speaker 1: energy it took them to go harvest one type over another, 1582 01:43:19,760 --> 01:43:23,120 Speaker 1: and he couldn't figure out what was the difference in 1583 01:43:23,200 --> 01:43:27,599 Speaker 1: these two animals. Well, it turns out spider monkeys eat 1584 01:43:27,680 --> 01:43:31,679 Speaker 1: fruit and holler monkeys eat a lot of tree bark 1585 01:43:32,080 --> 01:43:38,160 Speaker 1: rich in tannins. And we actually came very close to 1586 01:43:38,240 --> 01:43:42,400 Speaker 1: having a research project on monkey meat taste because I'm 1587 01:43:42,439 --> 01:43:46,880 Speaker 1: convinced those holler monkeys had very bitter flavored meat and 1588 01:43:46,920 --> 01:43:50,040 Speaker 1: the spider monkeys was going to be, you know, much 1589 01:43:50,120 --> 01:43:54,960 Speaker 1: more desirable meat products. However, like everything else, the funding 1590 01:43:55,040 --> 01:43:57,360 Speaker 1: fell through for that project and we didn't get to 1591 01:43:57,400 --> 01:43:59,640 Speaker 1: do it. But that's too bad. I was with I 1592 01:43:59,760 --> 01:44:06,360 Speaker 1: was with the Chimana and we went monkey hunting. They 1593 01:44:06,720 --> 01:44:11,040 Speaker 1: their favorite is the spider monkey. Second favorite was red howler. 1594 01:44:12,240 --> 01:44:14,240 Speaker 1: We got a red howler and ate it. But then 1595 01:44:14,320 --> 01:44:17,680 Speaker 1: the way they cook things that really everything winds up 1596 01:44:17,680 --> 01:44:21,000 Speaker 1: being very similar because they'll dry it, you know that 1597 01:44:21,120 --> 01:44:22,920 Speaker 1: they like smoke it, then boil it, and they do 1598 01:44:22,960 --> 01:44:24,880 Speaker 1: a lot of processes to it that really change it. 1599 01:44:25,320 --> 01:44:28,760 Speaker 1: There were other monkeys that I thought when we encountered them, 1600 01:44:28,800 --> 01:44:31,920 Speaker 1: I thought, man, his monkeys in trouble, but they're very 1601 01:44:31,960 --> 01:44:38,360 Speaker 1: dismissive of it. And then we encountered a possum after 1602 01:44:38,400 --> 01:44:41,200 Speaker 1: they got a red Howler, and I thought, man, this like, 1603 01:44:41,240 --> 01:44:43,479 Speaker 1: no one wants to see monkeys. There are people that 1604 01:44:43,520 --> 01:44:47,040 Speaker 1: at least like possums. This possum is doomed. And they 1605 01:44:47,080 --> 01:44:49,880 Speaker 1: were very dismissive of anyone that would ever go near 1606 01:44:49,880 --> 01:44:53,519 Speaker 1: a possum and stroll down past it. It would be 1607 01:44:54,160 --> 01:44:57,000 Speaker 1: a real rich area of inquiry for someone to look 1608 01:44:57,040 --> 01:45:02,960 Speaker 1: into the qualitative nature of how it's viewed, uh, what 1609 01:45:03,040 --> 01:45:08,040 Speaker 1: tastes good, and how culturally subjective that is well. I 1610 01:45:08,240 --> 01:45:12,960 Speaker 1: one time I spent some time with the chupic Askimos. 1611 01:45:14,000 --> 01:45:18,439 Speaker 1: They like tougher meat when butchering an animal, like this 1612 01:45:18,560 --> 01:45:22,800 Speaker 1: part is good, it's very chewy. This part is not good. 1613 01:45:22,960 --> 01:45:27,880 Speaker 1: It's very tender. They especially like the tendon that supports 1614 01:45:27,960 --> 01:45:32,080 Speaker 1: the head that comes off the spine. That's good because 1615 01:45:32,120 --> 01:45:36,600 Speaker 1: that's nice and chewy and um. They'd be fascinated to understand, 1616 01:45:36,640 --> 01:45:40,040 Speaker 1: like how much of this stuff is culturally overlaid and 1617 01:45:40,080 --> 01:45:43,400 Speaker 1: if there really is any sort of human you know, 1618 01:45:43,920 --> 01:45:49,920 Speaker 1: any sort of objective reality about what tastes good. That's 1619 01:45:49,960 --> 01:45:53,599 Speaker 1: a great questions that there are cultures in the world 1620 01:45:53,680 --> 01:45:57,639 Speaker 1: that that favor the less tender product, there are also 1621 01:45:57,760 --> 01:46:01,959 Speaker 1: cultures in the world that favor the stronger, more intense 1622 01:46:02,040 --> 01:46:07,240 Speaker 1: flavors that come from pasture raised beef or wild game 1623 01:46:07,320 --> 01:46:12,000 Speaker 1: for example. Uh. And interesting on our monkey meat conversation, 1624 01:46:12,840 --> 01:46:15,439 Speaker 1: you touched on I think a really critical point, and 1625 01:46:15,640 --> 01:46:21,360 Speaker 1: that was not only would they kind of dismiss the monkeys, 1626 01:46:21,960 --> 01:46:27,519 Speaker 1: but if some hunter actually shot one, then that person 1627 01:46:27,840 --> 01:46:33,360 Speaker 1: was widely disparaged as well. Yeah, so there was a 1628 01:46:33,760 --> 01:46:37,280 Speaker 1: definitely a social aspect to it to go on top 1629 01:46:37,360 --> 01:46:42,960 Speaker 1: of everything else. As you mentioned, Krin, let's close out 1630 01:46:43,000 --> 01:46:47,800 Speaker 1: with the future. Okay, this is Chris Crins. This this 1631 01:46:47,880 --> 01:46:51,719 Speaker 1: is Cris been Diana talk about this well. Okay, so 1632 01:46:52,200 --> 01:46:57,799 Speaker 1: we've done some blind taste testing around here with fake 1633 01:46:57,920 --> 01:47:04,519 Speaker 1: meat and I think overwhelmingly as soon as you have 1634 01:47:04,640 --> 01:47:09,040 Speaker 1: a bite of the impostor meat. I mean, it's just 1635 01:47:09,080 --> 01:47:14,839 Speaker 1: so obvious taste, texture, smell, everything that would go into 1636 01:47:15,240 --> 01:47:18,400 Speaker 1: you know, one's experience of eating something, it's just so 1637 01:47:18,520 --> 01:47:23,439 Speaker 1: clearly not any kind of meat. So how much meat 1638 01:47:23,600 --> 01:47:29,360 Speaker 1: science goes into the development of these products? And from 1639 01:47:29,400 --> 01:47:35,839 Speaker 1: your perspective, how possible is it on a cellular level 1640 01:47:35,880 --> 01:47:44,439 Speaker 1: to really create uh, animal flesh out of nothing that 1641 01:47:44,640 --> 01:47:52,600 Speaker 1: is animal material? How much time do we have? Well, uh, 1642 01:47:52,720 --> 01:47:56,200 Speaker 1: first of all, most there have been food scientists who 1643 01:47:56,240 --> 01:48:01,000 Speaker 1: have contributed to those products. Not too many meat scientists, 1644 01:48:01,000 --> 01:48:06,479 Speaker 1: but there are too bad. But you know, within that 1645 01:48:07,000 --> 01:48:11,080 Speaker 1: if you we started our conversation talking about Warner Bratchler 1646 01:48:11,200 --> 01:48:15,080 Speaker 1: shear an objective measure of tenderness. If you look at 1647 01:48:15,120 --> 01:48:18,599 Speaker 1: the muscles and a beef carcass, there is more than 1648 01:48:18,640 --> 01:48:21,920 Speaker 1: a twofold difference in sure force from one muscle to 1649 01:48:21,960 --> 01:48:26,000 Speaker 1: the other. So even within an animal, there's a wide 1650 01:48:26,080 --> 01:48:30,400 Speaker 1: range of tenderness and texture. I tend to agree with 1651 01:48:30,439 --> 01:48:34,840 Speaker 1: you every one of those non meat products that we've 1652 01:48:34,920 --> 01:48:42,360 Speaker 1: talked about, UM, has not met my standard for what 1653 01:48:42,439 --> 01:48:46,599 Speaker 1: I care to eat. I like to say sort of 1654 01:48:46,600 --> 01:48:50,679 Speaker 1: tongue in cheek. Um. Everybody is entitled to their own 1655 01:48:50,720 --> 01:48:55,920 Speaker 1: stupid opinion, right, And as a as a food industry, 1656 01:48:56,200 --> 01:48:59,960 Speaker 1: I don't object to offering a variety of products, even 1657 01:49:00,080 --> 01:49:05,720 Speaker 1: if I myself don't care for this. But mostly the 1658 01:49:05,800 --> 01:49:10,680 Speaker 1: comments I've just made are relevant regarding plant based substitutes 1659 01:49:10,840 --> 01:49:15,320 Speaker 1: for meat. There is some effort going on to use 1660 01:49:16,280 --> 01:49:21,240 Speaker 1: cells and grow cells to create a meat product like 1661 01:49:21,360 --> 01:49:24,840 Speaker 1: you're talking about. But just as we have a twofold 1662 01:49:24,840 --> 01:49:32,040 Speaker 1: difference in tenderness within the body itself, uh in tenderness um, 1663 01:49:32,200 --> 01:49:37,240 Speaker 1: the structures and cellular architecture it takes to build those muscles, 1664 01:49:38,360 --> 01:49:42,080 Speaker 1: they are very very far away from being able to 1665 01:49:42,120 --> 01:49:46,080 Speaker 1: mimic a meat like structure in in my judgment, and 1666 01:49:46,120 --> 01:49:50,200 Speaker 1: so certainly as a meat scientist, I don't feel threatened 1667 01:49:50,240 --> 01:49:54,800 Speaker 1: by those products. Mostly I am. I guess I'm a 1668 01:49:54,840 --> 01:49:59,639 Speaker 1: little disappointed and frustrated by the marketing claims that are 1669 01:49:59,720 --> 01:50:04,439 Speaker 1: made regarding those kinds of products. Time and again people 1670 01:50:04,520 --> 01:50:09,480 Speaker 1: talk about, oh, these products are They're healthier for the environment, 1671 01:50:09,520 --> 01:50:13,200 Speaker 1: they're greener. But the reality is when you do a 1672 01:50:13,240 --> 01:50:19,360 Speaker 1: full life cycle analysis, uh, live animal production is a 1673 01:50:19,680 --> 01:50:25,320 Speaker 1: very efficient way to convert plants to meet and uh. 1674 01:50:25,400 --> 01:50:29,519 Speaker 1: In Nebraska, we've been a state for over one hundred 1675 01:50:29,560 --> 01:50:33,439 Speaker 1: and fifty years, we have we have farms in the 1676 01:50:33,479 --> 01:50:38,479 Speaker 1: state that have been in families for more than seven generations. 1677 01:50:39,439 --> 01:50:45,679 Speaker 1: You can't possibly produce animals for seven generations if it's 1678 01:50:45,720 --> 01:50:49,600 Speaker 1: not done in a sustainable way. And so I my 1679 01:50:49,760 --> 01:50:53,880 Speaker 1: frustration with the product line is more along the disparagement 1680 01:50:54,479 --> 01:51:00,200 Speaker 1: of what takes place with agricultural production and frame clee. 1681 01:51:00,280 --> 01:51:02,240 Speaker 1: I think it's a little bit deceiving in a lot 1682 01:51:02,280 --> 01:51:06,960 Speaker 1: of ways compared to what we have, whether it's game 1683 01:51:07,000 --> 01:51:11,400 Speaker 1: animals or whether it's commercially raised animals. Those animals are 1684 01:51:11,439 --> 01:51:16,040 Speaker 1: out there grazing pasture, they're they're eating grain, and they 1685 01:51:16,080 --> 01:51:20,960 Speaker 1: have the opportunity to give us this wonderful, desirable eating 1686 01:51:21,040 --> 01:51:24,160 Speaker 1: experience if we all respect and take care and manage 1687 01:51:24,200 --> 01:51:28,559 Speaker 1: those animals appropriately. That's, frankly, that's what my whole career 1688 01:51:28,600 --> 01:51:32,760 Speaker 1: has been about, is managing the product. Chris, thanks for 1689 01:51:32,840 --> 01:51:36,719 Speaker 1: coming on. It's it's truly been a pleasure. I honestly 1690 01:51:36,800 --> 01:51:40,880 Speaker 1: appreciate so much the chance to talk about this. As 1691 01:51:40,920 --> 01:51:44,479 Speaker 1: you mentioned earlier, we have a lot of misconceptions going 1692 01:51:44,520 --> 01:51:48,400 Speaker 1: on out there and Uh, it's uh, it's enjoyable for 1693 01:51:48,439 --> 01:51:51,280 Speaker 1: me to to kind of explain and educate a little bit. 1694 01:51:51,360 --> 01:51:54,240 Speaker 1: So well, I'm gonna warn you that I'm probably gonna 1695 01:51:54,240 --> 01:51:59,519 Speaker 1: steal traffic and misconceptions because it's such a it's such 1696 01:51:59,520 --> 01:52:01,840 Speaker 1: a big out of our lives to speculate about why 1697 01:52:01,960 --> 01:52:07,200 Speaker 1: things taste good and bad. But we'll build up, we'll 1698 01:52:07,240 --> 01:52:09,559 Speaker 1: build up another list of things we've heard from people, 1699 01:52:09,600 --> 01:52:12,040 Speaker 1: and we'll come back and check with you. That'd be great. 1700 01:52:12,040 --> 01:52:14,280 Speaker 1: I'd be happy to do it. Thank you, Thank you 1701 01:52:14,400 --> 01:52:14,760 Speaker 1: very much.