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Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace spending thousands and thousands of

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Speaker 1: dollars for billboards along the street, tens of thousands of

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Speaker 1: dollars a donation, nearly ten thousand letters. I'm not talking

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Speaker 1: about a rock star or a movie star. I'm talking

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Speaker 1: about Luigi Mangioni. Fans They're crazy. I wonder how Brian

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Speaker 1: Thompson's widow and orphaned boys feel about the billboards, the

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Speaker 1: donations and the letters. I'm Nancy Grace, this is Crime Stories.

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Speaker 1: I want to thank you for being with us as

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Speaker 1: the suspected killer of the United Healthcare CEO heads to court. Amazingly,

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Speaker 1: his support amongst mostly female fans has not died. When

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Speaker 1: Mangioni arrived at a Manhattan courthouse for hearings, a billboard

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Speaker 1: featuring a guy named Michael Kissling was mounted on a

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Speaker 1: truck driving around outside. Who is Kissling? He is a

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Speaker 1: thirty two year old amputee who blames United Healthcare for

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Speaker 1: denying treatments he said would have saved his leg. Now,

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Speaker 1: Kissling does not condone violence, but he does say the

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Speaker 1: shooting dead of the CEO Brian Thompson did draw attention

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Speaker 1: to the many obstacles he and many others have faced

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Speaker 1: getting insurance coverage. Kissling makes a point by saying, if

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Speaker 1: he Mingionie's Malcolm X, then I'm emulating MLK Martin Luther King.

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Speaker 1: Of course, United Healthcare disputed a. Kissling's account, and I'm

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Speaker 1: certainly not defending United Healthcare in this. What I am

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Speaker 1: supporting is the right to a trial. What happened that

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Speaker 1: early morning when Brian Thompson was gunned down on the street.

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Speaker 2: A masked gunman shoots dead the United Healthcare CEO in

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Speaker 2: midtown Manhattan, and urgent search ensues for the suspect. Last

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Speaker 2: scene entering Central.

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Speaker 1: Park, marriage secrets being revealed as this health boss worth

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Speaker 1: millions of dollars is gunned down and open around the public.

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Speaker 1: What do we make of clues left behind? Cryptic and

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Speaker 1: odd clues? For instance, bullets found actually had been inscribed

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Speaker 1: with letters on them. A cell phone had been left behind.

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Speaker 1: Is there DNA on a water bottle? Was this a pro?

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Speaker 1: A silencer was used and in the middle of the assassination,

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Speaker 1: the gun jams and seemingly the pro shooter simply adjusted

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Speaker 1: and continued firing. Everyone. Thank you for being with us.

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Speaker 1: If this can happen in public. What are we to

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Speaker 1: think of it? Well, take a listen to what the

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Speaker 1: chief of Detectives has to say.

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Speaker 3: This morning, at six forty six am, patrol offices from

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Speaker 3: Midtown North Preestinct responded to a nine to one one

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Speaker 3: call of a person shot in front of the Hilton

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Speaker 3: Hotel located at thirteen thirty five Avenue of the Americas.

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Speaker 3: This is between West fifty third Street and West fifty

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Speaker 3: fourth Street. At six forty eight am, officers arrive and

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Speaker 3: find the victim, Brian R.

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Speaker 2: Thompson, a fifty.

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Speaker 3: Year old male, on the sidewalk in front of the Hilton,

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Speaker 3: with gunshot wounds to his back and leg.

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Speaker 1: You know, the way the sheoter handled the weapon, the

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Speaker 1: use of a silencer, the mask, the lying in wait

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Speaker 1: all indicates a professional hit. But a pro wouldn't want

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Speaker 1: to be caught. A pro would do everything not to

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Speaker 1: get caught. So then why we're there, especially engraved bullets

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Speaker 1: with cryptic messages on them? Mm mmmm, it sounds like

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Speaker 1: a fifth grade girl riding a crime thriller. Something's way

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Speaker 1: off with this. Joining me and all Star panel to

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Speaker 1: make sense of what we know right now. But first

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Speaker 1: straight out to investigative reporter Lauren Conlin joining US co

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Speaker 1: host Primetime Crime on YouTube and you can find her

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Speaker 1: at Popcrime dot tv. Who has gone to the scene

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Speaker 1: and investigated Lauren, what can you tell us, Yes.

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Speaker 4: Nancy, on the street, the entire street of West fifty

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Speaker 4: third Street was blocked off. There was plane clothes detectives

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Speaker 4: as well as uniformed officers basically not saying anything. I

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Speaker 4: asked questions.

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Speaker 1: I asked witnesses if.

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Speaker 4: They heard anything, and the parking lot attendants were actually

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Speaker 4: there earlier that morning, but they said, you know, due

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Speaker 4: to the silencer, they didn't hear anything.

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Speaker 1: Tell me your understanding, what you learned of what happened,

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Speaker 1: Starting at the beginning.

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Speaker 4: Starting at the beginning, I learned that Brian Thompson arrived

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Speaker 4: in New York Monday. Now he was not staying at

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Speaker 4: the Hilton. He was staying at a hotel across the street.

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Speaker 4: He was set to speak at eight am at their

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Speaker 4: annual investors conference, and he was arriving early at six

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Speaker 4: forty five. So as he walked into the entrance of

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Speaker 4: the Hilton, it was revealed by NYPD that this gunman

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Speaker 4: was allegedly lying in wait before he shot him.

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Speaker 1: Take a listen to Chief Detective Joe Kenny.

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Speaker 3: Mister Thompson was removed by ems or Roosevelt Hospital, where

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Speaker 3: he was pronounced dead at seven to twelve am. Mister

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Speaker 3: Thompson is the CEO of United Healthcare and resides in Minnesota.

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Speaker 3: Detectives from Nightwatch, Midtown North Detective Squad, and Manhattan South

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Speaker 3: Homicad responded to the scene and began their investigation.

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Speaker 1: We're learning a lot. I want to go straight out

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Speaker 1: to Bill Daily joining us from New York. Former FBI

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Speaker 1: investigator forends At photography international security expert. Bill, thank you

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Speaker 1: for being with us. You see the video steals we're showing.

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Speaker 1: I don't know that a pro would have done this

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Speaker 1: right in front of a surveillance video.

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Speaker 5: Well, exactly right, Nancy. Is that you know people throw

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Speaker 5: on this thing about you know professional hitmen. I mean

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Speaker 5: those are those are out of the movies. I mean,

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Speaker 5: this could be somebody who trained, who thought it out. Well,

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Speaker 5: obviously he's done a lot of reconnaissance and research, but

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Speaker 5: we're talking about professional hit people. That's something made in

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Speaker 5: the movies. I would say, Nancy, A couple of things

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Speaker 5: I'm quite familiar with this area. Being a New Yorker

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Speaker 5: and having worked on the streets of New York for

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Speaker 5: what a number of years, is that this is actually

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Speaker 5: the side entrance the missus Thompson was apparently staying around

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Speaker 5: the corner. We believe that they marry a hotel, which

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Speaker 5: actually gave him a couple of avenues of approach to

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Speaker 5: the hotel. This is the side interest the managers on

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Speaker 5: sixth Avenue. So for this gunman to know that he

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Speaker 5: was going to be me down the side street at

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Speaker 5: this time suggested to me there was some other reconnaissance

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Speaker 5: inside information that he knew that he was at another hotel.

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Speaker 5: He wasn't saying at the Hilton that he could be

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Speaker 5: coming down this street. Tompson could have easy walked around

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Speaker 5: seventh Avenue to come down fifty fifth Street or another

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Speaker 5: street to grab a cup of coffee, but he didn't.

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Speaker 5: And so there are a couple of things out here

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Speaker 5: that kind of jump out to me that are really

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Speaker 5: concerning with your guard to how much information was known

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Speaker 5: about the specific movements of mister Thompson that morning.

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Speaker 1: Bill Daly, I know exactly what you mean about that location,

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Speaker 1: But wouldn't it have been easy for the perp the

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Speaker 1: killer to be waiting in the lobby waiting for the victim,

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Speaker 1: Brian Thompson, to walk out. He didn't have to be

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Speaker 1: lying in wait at that side entrance. He could have

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Speaker 1: simply followed him. He did come up behind him.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean, there are a couple of things here

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Speaker 5: in Nancy, that is true. And in fact, if he

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Speaker 5: knew if he was going to be speaking of the conference,

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Speaker 5: he didn't have to be waiting outside. He could have

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Speaker 5: done it just in the lobby, upstairs, in an elevator

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Speaker 5: or some other other place where he knew there was

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Speaker 5: kind of kind of cool chow point where he would

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Speaker 5: have had to travel through in order to get to

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Speaker 5: the conference. The other thing is that which kind of

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Speaker 5: points to perhaps something more someone from the area or

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Speaker 5: from the region, is the fact that mister Simpson lives

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Speaker 5: out in Minnesota. The day to day he comes to

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Speaker 5: and from work, he comes to and from his home,

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Speaker 5: he goes perhaps to see maybe his children's sporting events,

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Speaker 5: who knows what. But those are kind of open areas,

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Speaker 5: other areas where he could have been a target. But

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Speaker 5: yet this was done in New York City, where he

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Speaker 5: doesn't live, where he was visiting where this person would

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Speaker 5: have only had a couple of days opportunity for any

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Speaker 5: kind of reconnaissance and kind of staging this event. And

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Speaker 5: so it kind of leads me to suggest that this

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Speaker 5: person chose New York either because it's more difficult. You

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Speaker 5: can get lost in the city, you can do things

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Speaker 5: like this, it could disappear into Central Park and perhaps

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Speaker 5: try to hide your trails, you know, or it was

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Speaker 5: a matter of convenience that the person was in and

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Speaker 5: around the area and didn't have to travel to Minnesota.

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Speaker 1: You're right. The victim in town to speak at an

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Speaker 1: investor conference.

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Speaker 6: Listen, the victim was in New York City to speak

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Speaker 6: at an investor conference. It appears a suspect was lying

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Speaker 6: in wait for several minutes, and as the victim was

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Speaker 6: walking to the conference hotel, the suspect approached from behind

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Speaker 6: and fired several rounds, striking the victim at least once

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Speaker 6: in the back and at least once in the right calf.

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Speaker 6: Many people passed the suspect, but he appeared to wait

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Speaker 6: for his intended target.

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Speaker 1: Well, it's clearly targeted, Bill Daly. There is no robbery,

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Speaker 1: there is no car jacking, there is no sex attack,

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Speaker 1: so it's targeted. Can we look at the photo of

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Speaker 1: the suspect's face? Now, we keep hearing we don't know

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Speaker 1: much about him, but I can tell you right now

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Speaker 1: he's white. Number one. He knows enough to cover his face.

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Speaker 1: But I see that he is not wearing gloves. To

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Speaker 1: Lauren Colin, what can you tell me about a discarded

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Speaker 1: water bottle?

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Speaker 4: The discarded water bottle, Nancy, was found in the alleyway,

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Speaker 4: which is between fifty and fifty fourth Street. It's the

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Speaker 4: zig Field Ballroom Alleyway.

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Speaker 1: A pro would not leave behind a water bottle. A

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Speaker 1: pro wouldn't even be drinking anything right before you've murdered somebody.

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Speaker 5: Exactly right, and Ncy, And go to my suggestion, this

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Speaker 5: person orchestrated this and pre planned it. I thought it out.

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Speaker 5: You speak about perhaps the weapon a little bit later on.

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Speaker 5: All these things tying to somebody who is knowledgeable about

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Speaker 5: only what they were doing, but certainly not a professional.

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Speaker 5: That's somebody we might see kind of portrayed in the movies.

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Speaker 5: These people would be much more sub rosa about their efforts,

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Speaker 5: would kind of not be seen beforehand. And I'm going

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Speaker 5: to suggest to you is that besides this video and

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Speaker 5: these images we have now as that police are looking

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Speaker 5: to kind of put together both the timeline and his trail,

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Speaker 5: there'll be some more coming out and we'll we'll have

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Speaker 5: some more facial images. Perhaps the DNA may help, but

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Speaker 5: as we all know, working these cases, because you need

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Speaker 5: to have something to compare it to, you need to

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Speaker 5: have some database to compared to, or using ancestral DNA,

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Speaker 5: perhaps hire this person back to someone else and work

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Speaker 5: through that angle. So even though we have all these things,

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Speaker 5: and it could be who knows, maybe fragmented fingerprints on

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Speaker 5: the bot casings or other evidence left behind, but again

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Speaker 5: you need something to compare it to.

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Speaker 3: What we know is that the shooter arrived at the

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Speaker 3: location on foot about five minutes prior to the victim's arrival.

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Speaker 3: He stands alongside the building line as numerous other people

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Speaker 3: and pedestrians pass him by. From video, we see at

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Speaker 3: six forty four am, the victim is walking alone towards

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Speaker 3: the Hilton after exiting his hotel across the street. We

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Speaker 3: believe the victim was headed to the Hilton Hotel to

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Speaker 3: attend the United Health Group investors conference that was scheduled

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Speaker 3: to start at eight am.

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Speaker 1: Let me look at that stance one more time where

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Speaker 1: the shooter is pointing pointing the gun at the victim.

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Speaker 1: You know, everybody on the panel jump in, but Bill

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Speaker 1: Danley look at that. It looks like someone has been

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Speaker 1: watching too many movies and they think that's a profession

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Speaker 1: killer stance. You see that right there. I'm just telling you, Look,

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Speaker 1: he doesn't have on gloves. He's been hanging out, drinking

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Speaker 1: from a water bottle that he leaves behind. I also

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Speaker 1: understand a cell phone has been left behind. And then

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Speaker 1: he gets on a city bike. It reminds me of

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Speaker 1: a bank robbery I prosecuted where the purp had a

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Speaker 1: bike waiting around the corner. He was anything but a

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Speaker 1: pro and he pedaled off just like this guy is doing.

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Speaker 1: What do you make of that?

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Speaker 5: Bial Yeah, all these things kind of add up to

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Speaker 5: the fact that this person, again gave some thought. But

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Speaker 5: yet it's about quote professional I mean, we really don't

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Speaker 5: have these kind of quote professional hitment throughout the country.

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Speaker 5: Maybe the mafia does, but we're not talking about people

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Speaker 5: knocking off executive So this doesn't happen in the United States.

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Speaker 5: Perhaps overseas, and perhaps a concern when people travel the

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Speaker 5: high risk locations, but certainly not in New York City.

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Speaker 5: But I probably tell you is that both that stance

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Speaker 5: is kind of a suggestion that the person thought they

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Speaker 5: knew what they were doing, but also the fact that

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Speaker 5: this gun jam the jam several times apparently rights at

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Speaker 5: each shot. According to police, they believe that it jammed

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Speaker 5: maybe because there was a silencer on the front, a

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Speaker 5: silencer that perhaps caused the jam to occur. But he

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Speaker 5: did clear it very quickly and efficiently, So he's somebody

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Speaker 5: who did do some practice training with that weapon beforehand.

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Speaker 1: Well, well, Lauren Colin, the gun jammed more than once.

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Speaker 4: Apparently it jammed between shots, but you know that didn't

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Speaker 4: stop him, so he kept shooting after.

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Speaker 1: He saw The answer is yes, Okay, that's telling me

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Speaker 1: a lot right there, daily, daily, daily, A pro is

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Speaker 1: going to take a gun that jams between every shot?

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Speaker 2: Really?

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Speaker 5: Yeah, Well, I'm going to some of the forensic guess

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Speaker 5: versus that by using that silencer, and again, silencers are

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Speaker 5: nothings that you were supposed to legally have, so if

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Speaker 5: it was homemade, it could have caused more of this

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Speaker 5: kind of malfunction of the weapon. But again, it did

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Speaker 5: seem as though calmly he cleared that weapon, he was

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Speaker 5: able to pull a slide on the.

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Speaker 1: Top daily did you say homemade? Look, this is whoo,

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Speaker 1: this is melan. This is not a pro I don't

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Speaker 1: even know where that came from. A homemade silence, homemade silencer,

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Speaker 1: but come on, man, a homemade silencer that doesn't work,

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Speaker 1: A pretend professional killer stance, drinking a water bottle and

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Speaker 1: leaving it behind and hopping on a bike without gloves

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Speaker 1: and taking off no no, uh uh, I gotta figure

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Speaker 1: this thing out, guys. Why was a health ceo worth

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Speaker 1: millions of dollars gunned down in public? Early early morning?

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Speaker 1: Many people saying it's a.

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Speaker 2: Pro killer to shoot it?

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Speaker 3: Then flees on foot northbound into an alleyway between fifty

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Speaker 3: fourth Street and fifty fifth Street. Once at West fifty

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Speaker 3: fifth Street, the shooter continues to walk westbound on the

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Speaker 3: Avenue in Americas, where he gets onto an electric e

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Speaker 3: city bike and rides northbound on the Avenue Americas towards

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Speaker 3: Central Park. At six forty eight am, we have the

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Speaker 3: shooter riding this bike into Central Park at Center Drive.

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Speaker 3: We're still tracking video. The last we see with him

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Speaker 3: on that bike is in Central Park. At the scene,

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Speaker 3: we recover three live nine millimeters rounds and three discharged

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Speaker 3: nine milimeters shell casings. The motor for this murder currently

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Speaker 3: is unknown, but based on the evidence we have so far,

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Speaker 3: it does appear that the victim was specifically targeted. But

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Speaker 3: at this point we do not know why. This does

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Speaker 3: not appear to be a random act of violence.

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Speaker 1: Okay, I know that, I know it's not random. Joining

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Speaker 1: me high profile lawyer BERNARDA. Vielona, New York criminal defense attorney.

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Speaker 1: This is her beat. She is also a former prosecutor. Bernardo,

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Speaker 1: thank you for being with us. What do you make

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Speaker 1: of it so far? Because not only did the pro

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Speaker 1: assassin lead behind the discharged nine millimere shellcasings, they were

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Speaker 1: engraved with three cryptic words. I mean, it's straight out

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Speaker 1: of a crime novel and another saying, BERNARDA. Anybody that

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Speaker 1: knows how to type goog l E can find out

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Speaker 1: this guy was speaking where and at what time?

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Speaker 7: Yeah, but I still think there's an inside job because

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Speaker 7: in a sense of they could have known where he

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Speaker 7: was speaking, but they wouldn't have known exactly what time

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Speaker 7: he would have been leaving out of his hotel because

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Speaker 7: remember this shooter had only been waiting about five minutes,

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Speaker 7: so he had to have had some kind of inside

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Speaker 7: information to know the exact time that Brian Thompson would

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Speaker 7: have been leaving his hotel. Look, all of this looks

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Speaker 7: very shady. I don't think it's a professional kill at all,

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Speaker 7: because number one, believing of the showcases and the bullets

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Speaker 7: there and then jumping on a bike. I think there's

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Speaker 7: a lot more to this. I don't see that there's

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Speaker 7: going to be an arrest anytime soon, though.

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Speaker 1: Hold on, just mom on that daily bill daily with

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Speaker 1: me former FBI investigator and joining us from New York,

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Speaker 1: intimately familiar with the ins and outs the alleyways where

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Speaker 1: this happened. The guy then goes to Central Park. That

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Speaker 1: was a pretty good move, and it's not that far

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Speaker 1: from where the shooting was by bike. But he goes

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Speaker 1: into Central Park, which is blanketed with surveillance videos, I mean,

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Speaker 1: and we can follow his drail. He had to ditch

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Speaker 1: the bike somewhere. I think that we're going to find

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Speaker 1: out where he leaves the bike. And again no gloves.

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Speaker 1: As you said earlier, of course you got to have

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Speaker 1: something to compare it to. If he's not in the

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Speaker 1: DNA or the APHIST database, we don't have anything to

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Speaker 1: match it too. But that said, can we just agree

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Speaker 1: this is not a pro Yeah, I surely agree it's

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Speaker 1: not a pro.

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Speaker 5: I also think that there's a there are probably kind

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Speaker 5: of breadcrumbs left behind, is that you know if this

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Speaker 5: was connected with either the business because of see that

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Speaker 5: either of the had been a customer who was certainly

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Speaker 5: totally upset and obsessed with this individual, or perhaps a

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Speaker 5: former employee. That could have been a number of things.

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Speaker 5: But I think there you have to go back and

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Speaker 5: start looking at with their threats against the company. Apparently

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Speaker 5: according to the victim's wife there were, and if there were,

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Speaker 5: who was making those and what was the steps?

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Speaker 1: Start up with what you're just saying, Bill Daily, Lauren Conlin. Now,

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Speaker 1: according to one person there have been threats on the

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Speaker 1: victim's line, and that is his wife. Were those threats

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Speaker 1: ever reported to la law enforcement? Nancy?

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Speaker 4: Those threats were never reported to law enforcement?

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Speaker 1: With me also is Scott Iiker founding member. I can't

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Speaker 1: say this enough of the FBI's Cellular Analysis Survey team.

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Speaker 1: Can I just say he didn't just fall off the

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Speaker 1: turnip truck people. Iiker, if I was going to pick

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Speaker 1: him off, I would go somewhere with a silencer and

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Speaker 1: wait out in the middle of nowhere, right let his

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Speaker 1: body lay there for three or four hours before anybody

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Speaker 1: figures anything out. So why intentionally find him in New

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Speaker 1: York City?

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Speaker 8: I agree, there's a lot of other places that you

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Speaker 8: could have done this murder, but there's a lot of

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Speaker 8: benefits of doing it in a crowded city also. I mean,

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Speaker 8: if you think about it, you might be able to

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Speaker 8: mix in with the regular people walking to and from work,

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Speaker 8: cars and everything like that. He didn't think about all

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Speaker 8: the cameras in the area. He didn't think about all

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Speaker 8: the people that might see a different things. And obviously

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Speaker 8: I agree with the other gentleman that says I don't

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Speaker 8: think this guy is a professional. I do think he

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Speaker 8: has some training. I mean, I was on the FBI

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Speaker 8: SWAT team. I shot twice a week, and I can

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Speaker 8: see that type of stance that he had some training

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Speaker 8: for him to do that malfunction. Clear clear that gon

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Speaker 8: shoot again, clear it, clear it. That takes training time.

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Speaker 8: So I think, at least in my mind, he's made

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Speaker 8: a lot of mistakes, but I don't think he's a professional.

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Speaker 8: I totally agree with that. But he has had some drink.

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Speaker 1: And we are learning more from Chief of Detectives Joe Kenney.

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Speaker 3: From speaking to other employees that traveled with him to

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Speaker 3: New York. Doesn't seem that he had these security detail.

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Speaker 3: He left the hotel by himself, was walking, didn't seem

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Speaker 3: like he had any issues at all. So I don't

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Speaker 3: think he did not have his security detail.

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Speaker 1: Lauren Conlin correct me if I'm wrong. But wasn't there

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Speaker 1: just a firefighter's pension fund that sued the victim because

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Speaker 1: he dumped about thirty one percent of his stock made

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Speaker 1: fifteen million dollars just before everything went south, right, and

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Speaker 1: there's a complaint about that. Yeah, that's happening. The wife

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Speaker 1: says there's death threats. He's worth millions of dollars and

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Speaker 1: he doesn't have security detail.

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Speaker 4: Yes, his net worth is forty three million dollars. And

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Speaker 4: not only that, I found a plethora of lawsuits. He

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Speaker 4: was accused of creating an algorithm to deny patients' coverage.

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Speaker 4: So I found quite a few lawsuits there. And then additionally,

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Speaker 4: there was a data breach A few I believe it

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Speaker 4: was February of twenty twenty four, where many many people

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Speaker 4: were at risk and not happy.

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Speaker 1: Crime stories with Nancy Grace at the very beginning after

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Speaker 1: the murder, Mangioni somehow managed to attract an amazing legion

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Speaker 1: of fans, fascinations, sympathy. They flooded social media with memes,

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Speaker 1: they sell t shirts. But even now, a full year later,

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Speaker 1: they're still hot and heavy on the trail supporting the

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Speaker 1: twenty seven year old A League grad amazingly. While Mangioni

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Speaker 1: claims he suffered from chronic back pain, although the photos

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Speaker 1: I see are him frolicking on the beach and actually

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Speaker 1: lifting up girls and tickling them. He did not have

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Speaker 1: United Healthcare insurance, so I'm not sure how he targeted

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Speaker 1: Brian Thompson. But this is what happened. Listen to this.

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Speaker 1: It's just like a fifth grade girl writes an action thriller,

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Speaker 1: or tries to listen.

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Speaker 9: Police have released a new chilling detail in the assassination

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Speaker 9: style shooting. Three live rounds and three shellcasings recovered from

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Speaker 9: the crime scene, and cops are now saying there are

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Speaker 9: inscriptions on the shellcasings the words deny, defend, and depose

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Speaker 9: were engraved on the bullets.

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Speaker 1: So the words deny, defend, and depose were engraved on

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Speaker 1: the bullets. By who the local jeweler joining me right

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Speaker 1: now is a ballistics expert. Joseph Scott Morgan, Professor Forensics,

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Speaker 1: Jacksonville State University, author of Blood Beneath My Feet on Amazon,

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Speaker 1: and star of a hit series Body Bags with Joe

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Speaker 1: Scott Morgan. Joe Scott Really, okay, I can't hammer this

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Speaker 1: enough a pro What did they write it in? Fancy cursivey, defend,

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Speaker 1: depos Seriously, that sounds like the ransom note left behind

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Speaker 1: in John Benay a small foreign faction once one hundred

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Speaker 1: and eighteen thousand dollars stop.

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Speaker 10: What's really fascinating about this, Nancy, is the fact that

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Speaker 10: they've got three spent casings that are on the ground,

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Speaker 10: and then they have the three live rounds, and he's

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Speaker 10: having to try to clear this weapon because he's had

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Speaker 10: a malfunction, which actually does occur with some frequency when

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Speaker 10: you have a suppressed weapon. And the fact that he

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Speaker 10: had engraving and I keep hearing this term, this engraving

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Speaker 10: that was only casing the fact that he had a

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Speaker 10: jam in the weapon. I would think that it would

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Speaker 10: be engraved on all of the rounds, So how can

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Speaker 10: you plan for that, for instance, that these rounds are stacked,

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Speaker 10: which they would be in a magazine, and every time

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Speaker 10: he clears it, he's going to eject a live round

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Speaker 10: as opposed to those that were spent when he was firing.

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Speaker 10: If you watch the sequence on a video, he fires

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Speaker 10: once and then it looks like he clears, but he

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Speaker 10: may have actually cleared two rounds at that point time

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Speaker 10: that we're still live because the weapon is jamming on

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Speaker 10: him and he has to cycle through it, so he's

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Speaker 10: taken a lot of time. My suspicion is it might

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Speaker 10: be there might be engraving on all of the rounds,

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Speaker 10: and that he has taken a lot of time somewhere,

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Speaker 10: probably you know, at home or wherever it is. He

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Speaker 10: shows up prepared to a certain degree, although he didn't

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Speaker 10: wear gloves and he didn't fully mask his face. There's

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Speaker 10: a lot still to kind of untangle here, but that

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Speaker 10: point is certainly fascinating. I've never encountered this before in

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Speaker 10: my years in forensics to this degree. Now, Hollywood makes

434
00:25:10,920 --> 00:25:12,399
Speaker 10: a big deal out of this kind of thing, but

435
00:25:12,440 --> 00:25:16,760
Speaker 10: it's just not something you commonly run into. My question

436
00:25:16,960 --> 00:25:20,440
Speaker 10: is what's the skill level of the engraving, in addition

437
00:25:21,240 --> 00:25:27,240
Speaker 10: to attempting to define how this was engraved, what instrumentality

438
00:25:27,359 --> 00:25:30,280
Speaker 10: was used, and then maybe the folks will be able

439
00:25:30,320 --> 00:25:32,439
Speaker 10: to pick up on some form in his writing if

440
00:25:32,440 --> 00:25:33,600
Speaker 10: he's doing this freehand.

441
00:25:34,480 --> 00:25:37,760
Speaker 9: Brian Thompson's wife Paulette tells NBC News that Brian has

442
00:25:37,760 --> 00:25:40,720
Speaker 9: been receiving death threats. She doesn't go into detail, saying

443
00:25:40,760 --> 00:25:43,040
Speaker 9: it was basically due to a lack of coverage. She

444
00:25:43,680 --> 00:25:46,399
Speaker 9: doesn't know exactly, but Brian said there were some people

445
00:25:46,440 --> 00:25:47,680
Speaker 9: that had been threatening him.

446
00:25:47,880 --> 00:25:52,040
Speaker 1: Straight back out to Joe Scott Morgan joining us. Jo Scott,

447
00:25:52,160 --> 00:25:54,520
Speaker 1: if I said earlier, if there was a death thout

448
00:25:54,560 --> 00:25:57,480
Speaker 1: on my husband a I would let him travel alone

449
00:25:57,520 --> 00:25:59,640
Speaker 1: to New York. I would at least go with him

450
00:26:00,040 --> 00:26:02,959
Speaker 1: at the very least. But that said, they have children

451
00:26:02,960 --> 00:26:06,240
Speaker 1: to take care of back at home. But no security detail,

452
00:26:06,800 --> 00:26:11,120
Speaker 1: no police reports, nothing, And she is the only one

453
00:26:11,160 --> 00:26:14,760
Speaker 1: coming forward with the alleged threats if they weren't reported

454
00:26:14,800 --> 00:26:19,760
Speaker 1: to police, can anyone within the company verify this ever happened?

455
00:26:19,880 --> 00:26:23,240
Speaker 10: Well, he hasn't spoken of this to anybody that's around him,

456
00:26:23,240 --> 00:26:26,919
Speaker 10: But why would he not, you know, say something about this.

457
00:26:27,000 --> 00:26:29,280
Speaker 10: And let me tell you one more thing. A guy

458
00:26:29,359 --> 00:26:31,680
Speaker 10: that is in his atmosphere. You know, we see all

459
00:26:31,680 --> 00:26:34,280
Speaker 10: these so called celebrities that are out there that have

460
00:26:34,400 --> 00:26:38,919
Speaker 10: these you know, security details with it. This is a guy, Nancy,

461
00:26:39,080 --> 00:26:44,120
Speaker 10: that actually has a level of value and would heighten

462
00:26:44,560 --> 00:26:49,760
Speaker 10: anybody's a census relative to the danger he could potentially

463
00:26:49,800 --> 00:26:52,200
Speaker 10: be in. Why wouldn't you put a couple of people

464
00:26:52,240 --> 00:26:54,639
Speaker 10: on him to check the wout at least to be

465
00:26:54,800 --> 00:26:57,720
Speaker 10: body people that are going to score him around. Maybe

466
00:26:57,760 --> 00:27:00,480
Speaker 10: he didn't want that. I have no idea, but I

467
00:27:00,520 --> 00:27:03,199
Speaker 10: do know that he's a prime target. It's just fascinating

468
00:27:03,200 --> 00:27:06,560
Speaker 10: to me that they chose this particular location, this individual

469
00:27:06,600 --> 00:27:09,800
Speaker 10: went about it in this manner because I agree with

470
00:27:09,880 --> 00:27:11,960
Speaker 10: all of the other panelists. I think this guy has

471
00:27:11,960 --> 00:27:15,240
Speaker 10: some weapons familiarity, but he is in no way of

472
00:27:15,320 --> 00:27:18,280
Speaker 10: pro If he had been a pro, we would not

473
00:27:18,359 --> 00:27:20,080
Speaker 10: have seen the video last that long.

474
00:27:22,720 --> 00:27:25,560
Speaker 1: If you're sitting down, you may need to lay down

475
00:27:25,600 --> 00:27:27,280
Speaker 1: for what you're about to hear. Take a listen.

476
00:27:27,359 --> 00:27:30,320
Speaker 9: The suspect was reportedly spoted outside a public housing project

477
00:27:30,440 --> 00:27:32,600
Speaker 9: roughly three miles from the crime scene at five am,

478
00:27:32,800 --> 00:27:35,600
Speaker 9: caring would look like an e bike battery. He's then

479
00:27:35,640 --> 00:27:38,399
Speaker 9: seen again checking out at Starbucks not far from the Hilton,

480
00:27:38,400 --> 00:27:41,560
Speaker 9: in just minutes before the attack. It's unclear what exactly

481
00:27:41,560 --> 00:27:44,480
Speaker 9: the suspect purchase, but police believe a water bottle and

482
00:27:44,520 --> 00:27:47,000
Speaker 9: candy wrapper left at the crime scene may belong to

483
00:27:47,040 --> 00:27:49,680
Speaker 9: the shooter and are testing the items for latent fingerprints

484
00:27:49,720 --> 00:27:50,280
Speaker 9: and DNA.

485
00:27:50,480 --> 00:27:52,199
Speaker 1: The next thing we're going to hear, Lauren Colin, is

486
00:27:52,240 --> 00:27:55,800
Speaker 1: that the shooter used a credit card. I mean, he

487
00:27:55,920 --> 00:28:00,119
Speaker 1: hung out at a Starbucks just before the shooting, and

488
00:28:00,160 --> 00:28:04,080
Speaker 1: of course places himself at a public housing project. Yeah,

489
00:28:04,119 --> 00:28:07,000
Speaker 1: that's right. Blame the people of the housing project somehow

490
00:28:07,400 --> 00:28:10,840
Speaker 1: drag that into it. I guarantee that was orchestrated three

491
00:28:10,920 --> 00:28:14,119
Speaker 1: miles from the scene with what looked to be carrying

492
00:28:14,160 --> 00:28:18,000
Speaker 1: an e bike battery. In cases e bike crapped out

493
00:28:18,040 --> 00:28:20,000
Speaker 1: on him. Now, at first, this is reported to be

494
00:28:20,040 --> 00:28:23,199
Speaker 1: a city bike, the kind that are easily accessed all

495
00:28:23,200 --> 00:28:25,360
Speaker 1: around New York City. Now we're hearing it may not

496
00:28:25,400 --> 00:28:29,640
Speaker 1: be a city bike. That said, then he's at Starbucks

497
00:28:30,000 --> 00:28:33,720
Speaker 1: just beside the Hilton minutes before the attack, staring straight

498
00:28:33,800 --> 00:28:36,960
Speaker 1: into the surveillance cameras, So there's not just a water

499
00:28:37,000 --> 00:28:40,600
Speaker 1: bottle he leaves behind a candy wrapper. Somebody needs a

500
00:28:40,600 --> 00:28:43,760
Speaker 1: bit of honey, somebody wants the starbars before a murder.

501
00:28:44,040 --> 00:28:48,160
Speaker 4: Yes, And there also have been reports that NYPD believes

502
00:28:48,200 --> 00:28:51,080
Speaker 4: that he may have actually taken this subway from the

503
00:28:51,200 --> 00:28:55,320
Speaker 4: Upper west Side to Midtown and to that Starbucks.

504
00:28:55,360 --> 00:28:58,840
Speaker 1: Wait, then, if he was on the Upper west Side

505
00:29:00,040 --> 00:29:04,480
Speaker 1: and he's spotted at a housing project, there's not a

506
00:29:04,520 --> 00:29:07,520
Speaker 1: housing project on the Upper west Side, Okay, that's where

507
00:29:07,520 --> 00:29:09,920
Speaker 1: all the rich people live. To look down on Central Park,

508
00:29:10,280 --> 00:29:12,560
Speaker 1: there's not a housing project there. So does he leave

509
00:29:12,640 --> 00:29:15,040
Speaker 1: the Upper West to go to a housing project to

510
00:29:15,040 --> 00:29:17,760
Speaker 1: be spotted and then go to the Starbucks.

511
00:29:17,880 --> 00:29:19,840
Speaker 4: Well, that's what police are trying to figure out.

512
00:29:19,880 --> 00:29:20,680
Speaker 1: And I didn't.

513
00:29:21,040 --> 00:29:23,560
Speaker 4: Well, I'm hoping that he did take the subway because

514
00:29:23,600 --> 00:29:27,440
Speaker 4: Mayor Eric Adams did implement more cameras earlier this year.

515
00:29:27,600 --> 00:29:29,920
Speaker 1: Okay, I got a lot of surveillance on this guy,

516
00:29:30,280 --> 00:29:33,800
Speaker 1: but you're right, subway would help me figure out where

517
00:29:33,800 --> 00:29:37,240
Speaker 1: he's coming from, where he's going, and how he knows

518
00:29:37,280 --> 00:29:42,720
Speaker 1: those paths. I'm still flummoxed by the fact that he

519
00:29:42,760 --> 00:29:46,560
Speaker 1: would leave a water bottle with his DNA on it,

520
00:29:47,000 --> 00:29:51,239
Speaker 1: a candy wrapper, take a bike, no gloves, has a

521
00:29:51,520 --> 00:29:57,400
Speaker 1: pretend pro shooter stance, and has engraved bullets. For Pete's sake,

522
00:29:57,480 --> 00:30:00,000
Speaker 1: why not just throw down your driver's license before you

523
00:30:00,000 --> 00:30:04,200
Speaker 1: when you leave? Okay, Now we hear about a potential

524
00:30:04,640 --> 00:30:07,720
Speaker 1: eyewitness that goes on the run.

525
00:30:07,840 --> 00:30:10,480
Speaker 9: Police still have not identified the eyewitness who ran from

526
00:30:10,480 --> 00:30:12,960
Speaker 9: the scene as Thompson was gunned down. A woman dressed

527
00:30:12,960 --> 00:30:15,120
Speaker 9: in dark clothing and holding a coffee cup was standing

528
00:30:15,160 --> 00:30:17,560
Speaker 9: in a doorway just feet away from Thompson when the

529
00:30:17,560 --> 00:30:20,240
Speaker 9: shooter opened fire. She runs along the building toward the

530
00:30:20,240 --> 00:30:23,680
Speaker 9: shooter to avoid the gunfire, and disappears from frame. Authorities

531
00:30:23,720 --> 00:30:26,160
Speaker 9: are asking her to come forward, hoping she may be

532
00:30:26,200 --> 00:30:28,160
Speaker 9: able to provide new details on the shooter.

533
00:30:28,400 --> 00:30:30,960
Speaker 3: As a cull phone recovered in the alleyway. We're working

534
00:30:30,960 --> 00:30:33,760
Speaker 3: through that cell phone. Obviously, we'll be processing it forensically

535
00:30:33,840 --> 00:30:35,800
Speaker 3: at as far as words being exchanged. We do not

536
00:30:35,880 --> 00:30:39,080
Speaker 3: have audio of the incident. We only have the regular videoing.

537
00:30:40,080 --> 00:30:42,120
Speaker 3: Nothing for well, there's one witness standing right next to

538
00:30:42,160 --> 00:30:43,840
Speaker 3: the victim when he was shot. We're still trying to

539
00:30:43,840 --> 00:30:46,640
Speaker 3: identify that victim. Excuse me, excuse me that witness.

540
00:30:46,880 --> 00:30:50,080
Speaker 1: And we also learn that law enforcement has turned their

541
00:30:50,120 --> 00:30:53,960
Speaker 1: attention back home to Minnesota once again.

542
00:30:54,040 --> 00:30:57,560
Speaker 3: We're looking at everything. We're looking at his social media,

543
00:30:57,680 --> 00:31:00,840
Speaker 3: we are interviewing employees, we are interviewing family members. We

544
00:31:00,880 --> 00:31:06,880
Speaker 3: will be speaking to law enforcement in Minnesota.

545
00:31:09,000 --> 00:31:17,400
Speaker 1: Crime stories with Nancy Grace, billboards, thousands of dollars, thousands

546
00:31:17,440 --> 00:31:22,360
Speaker 1: of letters supporting the so called healthcare assassin. Will it

547
00:31:22,480 --> 00:31:25,680
Speaker 1: matter in court? Will public opinion matter? It certainly did

548
00:31:25,680 --> 00:31:29,520
Speaker 1: in the case of Sean Diddy Coombs. This is what

549
00:31:29,640 --> 00:31:33,400
Speaker 1: I know is true, these facts. This is what happened.

550
00:31:33,560 --> 00:31:35,720
Speaker 11: No one, what is the address of your emergency?

551
00:31:36,080 --> 00:31:37,600
Speaker 5: That's really an emergency.

552
00:31:37,680 --> 00:31:41,120
Speaker 11: I have a customer here that.

553
00:31:41,000 --> 00:31:43,880
Speaker 10: Some other customers were suspicious of that he looks like

554
00:31:43,920 --> 00:31:46,360
Speaker 10: the CEO shooter from New York.

555
00:31:46,600 --> 00:31:52,880
Speaker 1: Okay, straight out to Kila Brantley, joining US investigative reporter

556
00:31:52,880 --> 00:31:57,280
Speaker 1: at large dailymail dot com. Did they actually say in

557
00:31:57,480 --> 00:32:01,800
Speaker 1: court that their client, Luigi Angioni is the victim because

558
00:32:01,880 --> 00:32:06,280
Speaker 1: his quote beautiful, promising life has been derailed.

559
00:32:06,960 --> 00:32:10,080
Speaker 12: Yeah, Nancy, As you mentioned, his team did paint him

560
00:32:10,120 --> 00:32:12,880
Speaker 12: as someone with a promising future. Now, one thing that

561
00:32:13,040 --> 00:32:17,960
Speaker 12: had been documented was that Luigi suffered from debilitating back pain.

562
00:32:18,080 --> 00:32:20,360
Speaker 12: This was something that he went through. He went through

563
00:32:20,480 --> 00:32:23,320
Speaker 12: back surgery. And one thing that they say here is

564
00:32:23,360 --> 00:32:27,560
Speaker 12: that the real enemy here is the medical system, and

565
00:32:28,000 --> 00:32:30,840
Speaker 12: that is one thing that you can definitely expect.

566
00:32:30,880 --> 00:32:35,840
Speaker 1: His legal team argue, Kila, can I believe you are

567
00:32:35,880 --> 00:32:39,840
Speaker 1: my lieon eyes control room? Please show me him a

568
00:32:39,960 --> 00:32:43,800
Speaker 1: running along the beach in Hawaii. I've got videos of

569
00:32:43,880 --> 00:32:47,920
Speaker 1: him lifting up girls and tickling them. It's a video.

570
00:32:48,280 --> 00:32:52,760
Speaker 1: They're all giggling hysterically, including him. I've got photos of

571
00:32:52,800 --> 00:32:55,240
Speaker 1: him lounging by the beach. I'd love to see those

572
00:32:55,280 --> 00:32:58,239
Speaker 1: photos of him hiking and what looks to be a

573
00:32:58,400 --> 00:33:02,959
Speaker 1: jungle rainfall. Oh, he is feeling no pain there, Cali Brantley,

574
00:33:03,000 --> 00:33:04,959
Speaker 1: I hope you don't fall for that look like and seeker.

575
00:33:05,480 --> 00:33:09,920
Speaker 1: Doctor Judy Hoe, did you know that Luigimanngioni is apparently

576
00:33:09,960 --> 00:33:13,240
Speaker 1: the victim in this scenario? Doctor Judy Hoe is joining

577
00:33:13,280 --> 00:33:17,680
Speaker 1: US clinical forensic neuro psychologist, author of the New Rules

578
00:33:17,680 --> 00:33:23,080
Speaker 1: of Attachment and another bestseller, Stop Self Sabotage. You need

579
00:33:23,120 --> 00:33:25,560
Speaker 1: to write one, doctor Judy Hoe, about try to tell

580
00:33:25,640 --> 00:33:28,720
Speaker 1: the truth and then send it. You know, I'll pay

581
00:33:28,760 --> 00:33:30,840
Speaker 1: for it and we can send it to Luigi Mangioni.

582
00:33:31,240 --> 00:33:34,600
Speaker 1: He is not the victim here, but you know you

583
00:33:34,680 --> 00:33:39,280
Speaker 1: can't count out the defense attorney Agnefello. He got Sean

584
00:33:39,360 --> 00:33:44,600
Speaker 1: Combs off on the major accusations in that indictment. So

585
00:33:44,920 --> 00:33:48,440
Speaker 1: no matter how ridiculous I may think he sounds, he

586
00:33:48,560 --> 00:33:53,000
Speaker 1: essentially won that case. Yes, his defense team that claims

587
00:33:53,280 --> 00:33:55,880
Speaker 1: Luigi Mangioni is the victim. I want to read it,

588
00:33:56,200 --> 00:34:01,640
Speaker 1: doctor Judy Hope. Beautiful promising life drailed by those irritating

589
00:34:01,720 --> 00:34:02,520
Speaker 1: murder charges.

590
00:34:02,640 --> 00:34:08,960
Speaker 13: Judy, Wow, beautiful promising life, Nancy, what a narrative. And

591
00:34:09,000 --> 00:34:11,239
Speaker 13: as you said, even though he's not the victim. I

592
00:34:11,280 --> 00:34:14,040
Speaker 13: think this is why there has been a fan base, though,

593
00:34:14,400 --> 00:34:17,440
Speaker 13: because there's these individuals who actually believe maybe he is

594
00:34:17,480 --> 00:34:20,759
Speaker 13: a victim, that he's some type of anti hero, that

595
00:34:20,800 --> 00:34:22,160
Speaker 13: he's misunderstood.

596
00:34:22,719 --> 00:34:23,959
Speaker 14: And oftentimes we.

597
00:34:23,920 --> 00:34:28,560
Speaker 13: See this in individuals who might act charismatically, they just

598
00:34:28,680 --> 00:34:32,520
Speaker 13: seem to pull people in. And it's weird because a

599
00:34:32,520 --> 00:34:35,200
Speaker 13: lot of these people who develop this sort of fan

600
00:34:36,239 --> 00:34:39,560
Speaker 13: fanhood around Luigi, they're kind of thinking, well, maybe I

601
00:34:39,600 --> 00:34:42,640
Speaker 13: can be a special person in his life, maybe he'll

602
00:34:42,640 --> 00:34:44,960
Speaker 13: pay attention to me, maybe I can even develop a

603
00:34:45,080 --> 00:34:47,960
Speaker 13: friendship with this person. This person might learn to trust me.

604
00:34:48,280 --> 00:34:50,440
Speaker 13: It's really interesting, but some of it actually has to

605
00:34:50,480 --> 00:34:53,720
Speaker 13: do with a self centeredness of people who might actually

606
00:34:53,800 --> 00:34:56,440
Speaker 13: talk to him, that they're hoping to get something special

607
00:34:56,440 --> 00:34:57,640
Speaker 13: out of it for themselves.

608
00:34:59,040 --> 00:35:04,080
Speaker 1: I'm sorry, Gargie. I know you're the clinical and forensic neuropsychologist,

609
00:35:04,160 --> 00:35:06,799
Speaker 1: but I don't even know what you just said. How

610
00:35:06,840 --> 00:35:09,839
Speaker 1: can the defense stand up and say this is not

611
00:35:10,160 --> 00:35:17,880
Speaker 1: about the murder victim. Can we show, please, Brian Thompson

612
00:35:18,400 --> 00:35:21,520
Speaker 1: walking along and he's gunned down in cold blood, leaving

613
00:35:21,560 --> 00:35:26,280
Speaker 1: behind two sons and a wife. That's the victim. According

614
00:35:26,280 --> 00:35:31,040
Speaker 1: to prosecutors, it's Luigi Mangioni holding a three D weapon

615
00:35:31,440 --> 00:35:34,319
Speaker 1: that he made that it took dozens and dozens of

616
00:35:34,360 --> 00:35:36,560
Speaker 1: hours to make, so he can gun down a guy

617
00:35:37,080 --> 00:35:43,040
Speaker 1: walking to work in the back. You stated, I don't

618
00:35:43,080 --> 00:35:45,760
Speaker 1: know what that was, doctor Judy Hoo. I'm not saying

619
00:35:45,760 --> 00:35:48,880
Speaker 1: you're wrong. I'm just saying I'm just a trial lawyer

620
00:35:49,040 --> 00:35:51,640
Speaker 1: didn't understand it. But I think I know some of

621
00:35:51,680 --> 00:35:56,560
Speaker 1: the people that consider Luigi Mangioni to be the victim,

622
00:35:56,760 --> 00:36:01,919
Speaker 1: and here they are filing in to core. Okay, oh

623
00:36:02,040 --> 00:36:09,560
Speaker 1: what Luigi fights fascists. Okay, look at this line. Now,

624
00:36:09,640 --> 00:36:14,880
Speaker 1: wait till you see the cat walk parade of sad

625
00:36:15,200 --> 00:36:19,680
Speaker 1: sack women filing in to They won't even show their

626
00:36:19,680 --> 00:36:25,840
Speaker 1: face to get a glimpse of Luigi MANGIONI. Yes, keep

627
00:36:25,880 --> 00:36:34,120
Speaker 1: it going, keep it going, because I've got hours of people. Yeah,

628
00:36:34,200 --> 00:36:37,440
Speaker 1: that was totally walking the cat walk right there, clamoring

629
00:36:37,560 --> 00:36:41,360
Speaker 1: to get in to just bask in the glow of

630
00:36:41,480 --> 00:36:46,520
Speaker 1: Luigi MANGIONI. Oh, it keeps going. Yeah, on and on.

631
00:36:46,840 --> 00:36:52,800
Speaker 1: They had to turn women away, and it's not just women. Listen.

632
00:36:53,400 --> 00:36:55,480
Speaker 15: So this is who police believe was responsible for the

633
00:36:55,600 --> 00:37:00,640
Speaker 15: United Healthcare CEO Pepe. His seems Klubigi. All I can

634
00:37:00,680 --> 00:37:04,560
Speaker 15: say is, Mama, Miyah, does he need a Mario? I

635
00:37:04,560 --> 00:37:07,720
Speaker 15: believe it was a great philosopher and poet once said, Mama,

636
00:37:07,760 --> 00:37:10,400
Speaker 15: I'm in love with a criminal, and this type of

637
00:37:10,440 --> 00:37:15,600
Speaker 15: love isn't rational, it's physical. That was Britney Spears, and

638
00:37:15,600 --> 00:37:17,520
Speaker 15: I believe we're all feeling that right now. I believe

639
00:37:17,600 --> 00:37:19,399
Speaker 15: if you're going to do superhero like shit, you better

640
00:37:19,440 --> 00:37:22,560
Speaker 15: look like one. Okay, this man clearly did that. Did

641
00:37:22,600 --> 00:37:24,600
Speaker 15: he train at the Marvel Studios with all the other

642
00:37:24,680 --> 00:37:28,719
Speaker 15: Chris's okay, because Luigi, that's a spicy meat the ball.

643
00:37:29,000 --> 00:37:29,640
Speaker 5: I'm so sorry.

644
00:37:29,680 --> 00:37:30,960
Speaker 15: I believe if we're going to claim to be a

645
00:37:31,040 --> 00:37:33,480
Speaker 15: Christian nation, that we need to act like one. And

646
00:37:33,560 --> 00:37:38,200
Speaker 15: part of acting like that is practicing forgiveness. And after

647
00:37:38,239 --> 00:37:41,640
Speaker 15: a lot of seconds of thinking, I have decided I'm

648
00:37:41,680 --> 00:37:44,680
Speaker 15: gonna forgive him. I'm ready to forgive him, right, but

649
00:37:44,760 --> 00:37:47,840
Speaker 15: not forget, because mean, my god, how could you forget

650
00:37:47,840 --> 00:37:49,600
Speaker 15: an angel like this. I'm not gonna lie for a while.

651
00:37:49,600 --> 00:37:51,239
Speaker 15: I thought, oh my god, we're never going to find him,

652
00:37:51,440 --> 00:37:54,280
Speaker 15: you know. And I was wrong, because somewhere along the way,

653
00:37:54,520 --> 00:37:56,720
Speaker 15: the ups and downs, the highs and lows, the masks

654
00:37:57,160 --> 00:38:02,600
Speaker 15: and no masks, this man he found a way into

655
00:38:02,640 --> 00:38:03,160
Speaker 15: our hearts.

656
00:38:04,640 --> 00:38:05,040
Speaker 8: He did.

657
00:38:05,960 --> 00:38:09,160
Speaker 1: I hardly even know where to start with that. That

658
00:38:09,280 --> 00:38:13,880
Speaker 1: is from mister Williams spreck on TikTok. I'm in love

659
00:38:13,960 --> 00:38:17,800
Speaker 1: with a criminal, and I forgive him after a few

660
00:38:17,920 --> 00:38:25,359
Speaker 1: seconds of consideration, Doctor Gudy hoe it. I can't say

661
00:38:25,360 --> 00:38:29,720
Speaker 1: it gets worse, but there's more. Listen, you can't take

662
00:38:29,880 --> 00:38:40,000
Speaker 1: my mind and say there's blood on his head when

663
00:38:40,040 --> 00:38:41,320
Speaker 1: you're the one.

664
00:38:41,200 --> 00:38:42,440
Speaker 9: With the girl.

665
00:38:45,239 --> 00:38:53,160
Speaker 1: Who's taking lives for fun. You can't take my man.

666
00:38:53,520 --> 00:38:57,640
Speaker 1: That's from Scarlett park TikTok. So it's gone beyond calling

667
00:38:57,719 --> 00:39:03,640
Speaker 1: him a spicy meatball. These people actually consider Luigimi and

668
00:39:03,719 --> 00:39:07,880
Speaker 1: Gioni their man, and they are angry with the fans

669
00:39:07,880 --> 00:39:12,399
Speaker 1: for prosecuting. What have I gone down the rabbit hole?

670
00:39:12,440 --> 00:39:16,800
Speaker 1: Am I in some crazy bizarre alie in Wonderland? What

671
00:39:16,920 --> 00:39:18,600
Speaker 1: is happening, doctor gudi Hoe.

672
00:39:19,960 --> 00:39:23,920
Speaker 13: I know it seems completely unbelievable, Nancy, but this does happen.

673
00:39:23,960 --> 00:39:29,640
Speaker 13: People start to idolize these potential I mean, clearly this

674
00:39:29,719 --> 00:39:32,360
Speaker 13: is a defendant, right, but they're thinking in their minds,

675
00:39:32,640 --> 00:39:35,200
Speaker 13: this person is innocent. Maybe I'm going to be their

676
00:39:35,239 --> 00:39:38,040
Speaker 13: special person, and they're lusting after them the way that

677
00:39:38,040 --> 00:39:41,200
Speaker 13: they would lust after a celebrity, especially when they see

678
00:39:41,480 --> 00:39:44,239
Speaker 13: photos and videos that they can start cutting into their

679
00:39:44,280 --> 00:39:48,200
Speaker 13: own social media. They're developing a fictionalized relationship with him,

680
00:39:48,239 --> 00:39:52,880
Speaker 13: a fantasy and essentially completely erasing all of the facts

681
00:39:52,880 --> 00:39:55,440
Speaker 13: that have been evident in this case. And clearly the

682
00:39:55,520 --> 00:39:57,920
Speaker 13: defendant's attorneys are trying to paint that picture.

683
00:39:57,600 --> 00:39:59,759
Speaker 14: As well, leaning into it as hard as possible because

684
00:39:59,760 --> 00:40:02,800
Speaker 14: they're hoping to influence the public opinion even before a

685
00:40:02,960 --> 00:40:06,359
Speaker 14: jury is selected, so that they can hopefully get him

686
00:40:06,560 --> 00:40:09,719
Speaker 14: the outcome that he wants, which is apparently to.

687
00:40:10,080 --> 00:40:14,240
Speaker 13: Escape a death sentence, escape prison. Maybe I'm not sure

688
00:40:14,280 --> 00:40:16,440
Speaker 13: exactly what they think is possible, but that's what's so

689
00:40:16,520 --> 00:40:20,080
Speaker 13: scary about all the positivity that has developed around his

690
00:40:20,239 --> 00:40:23,360
Speaker 13: persona in terms of all of these illustrations, the website

691
00:40:23,360 --> 00:40:25,360
Speaker 13: they set up about and it's really concerning.

692
00:40:26,000 --> 00:40:28,839
Speaker 1: And you know, Cheryl McCollum is joining me. Cold Case

693
00:40:28,880 --> 00:40:32,960
Speaker 1: Investigative Research Institute, founder, author of a brand new book,

694
00:40:33,040 --> 00:40:36,800
Speaker 1: Swans Don't Swim in a Sewer, Solving the Cold Case

695
00:40:36,840 --> 00:40:43,080
Speaker 1: of the Flint River Killer's Daughter on Amazon. Cheryl, Okay,

696
00:40:43,600 --> 00:40:46,359
Speaker 1: do you remember the night that you and I were

697
00:40:46,400 --> 00:40:49,640
Speaker 1: out until two o'clock in the morning staking out a

698
00:40:49,680 --> 00:40:54,279
Speaker 1: location where we thought Luigi Mangioni was going to be apprehended.

699
00:40:54,320 --> 00:40:56,560
Speaker 1: Do you remember that night? Because I sure do I do.

700
00:40:57,120 --> 00:41:02,400
Speaker 1: How has this gotten so bass Ackwards, Chryl Ninthy.

701
00:41:02,480 --> 00:41:07,080
Speaker 11: It is mind boggling that anybody is trying to paint

702
00:41:07,160 --> 00:41:12,000
Speaker 11: this killer as the victim. I mean, the victim's life

703
00:41:12,760 --> 00:41:16,440
Speaker 11: was not just promising, it was in full swing. He

704
00:41:16,560 --> 00:41:20,480
Speaker 11: had a wife and children, and a career at the

705
00:41:20,560 --> 00:41:26,000
Speaker 11: highest level. He had friends and extended family. He had

706
00:41:26,200 --> 00:41:31,640
Speaker 11: everything going for him. Mangione had none of that, but

707
00:41:31,800 --> 00:41:36,560
Speaker 11: he took everything from those children. And I'm going to

708
00:41:36,600 --> 00:41:40,239
Speaker 11: tell you something, when you look at the people that

709
00:41:40,320 --> 00:41:45,360
Speaker 11: are contacting him, I hope and pray that those six

710
00:41:45,520 --> 00:41:48,799
Speaker 11: thousand letters that he's gotten, that one hundred and fifteen

711
00:41:48,880 --> 00:41:51,959
Speaker 11: a day, that there's some good intel in there too,

712
00:41:52,600 --> 00:41:57,879
Speaker 11: because he is writing people back, so he's communicating, and

713
00:41:57,920 --> 00:41:59,279
Speaker 11: I hope they're listing.

714
00:41:59,080 --> 00:42:03,759
Speaker 1: Every piece of somehow this has gotten topsy turvy upside down.

715
00:42:04,160 --> 00:42:07,160
Speaker 1: I haven't even gotten into the legal implications of what

716
00:42:07,320 --> 00:42:10,560
Speaker 1: is happening in court. I'm just so concerned that one

717
00:42:10,600 --> 00:42:14,520
Speaker 1: of these nut jobs is going to end up on

718
00:42:14,640 --> 00:42:20,640
Speaker 1: the ultimate jury and acquit Luigi Manngioni under the misconception

719
00:42:20,719 --> 00:42:25,560
Speaker 1: that he is somehow the victim. Again in court, his

720
00:42:25,800 --> 00:42:31,960
Speaker 1: lawyers and un quoting claimed that his beautiful, promising life

721
00:42:32,120 --> 00:42:39,600
Speaker 1: has been derailed by murder charges. It's all about me, me, me, me,

722
00:42:39,600 --> 00:42:44,960
Speaker 1: me me. This is a millionaire's son, multimillionaire who grew

723
00:42:45,040 --> 00:42:47,799
Speaker 1: up with silver spoon stuck in his mouth and has

724
00:42:47,880 --> 00:42:51,920
Speaker 1: been living in a Hawaii high rise on the beach,

725
00:42:52,960 --> 00:42:57,840
Speaker 1: doing nothing, and yet he's the victim. Can you imagine,

726
00:42:57,880 --> 00:43:01,440
Speaker 1: Cheryl McCollum, how hard to Robson had to work to

727
00:43:01,520 --> 00:43:06,080
Speaker 1: get to become the CEO at United Healthcare. It wasn't

728
00:43:06,120 --> 00:43:08,040
Speaker 1: handed to him on a silver platter on top of

729
00:43:08,080 --> 00:43:10,880
Speaker 1: a Christmas tree like it was MANGIONI. He had to

730
00:43:11,000 --> 00:43:16,720
Speaker 1: work and sacrifice long, long hours to get to where

731
00:43:16,840 --> 00:43:19,360
Speaker 1: he got to to be gunned down like a dog

732
00:43:19,400 --> 00:43:20,839
Speaker 1: on the sidewalk.

733
00:43:20,360 --> 00:43:24,840
Speaker 11: Cheryl Nancy, you cannot compare these two people. That's why

734
00:43:24,920 --> 00:43:27,839
Speaker 11: I agree with you. This whole thing is upside down.

735
00:43:28,320 --> 00:43:32,799
Speaker 11: Not only did the victim work and sacrifice, so did

736
00:43:32,840 --> 00:43:35,879
Speaker 11: his wife. You know what it takes. You know how

737
00:43:35,920 --> 00:43:38,920
Speaker 11: long David has gone during the day. It's not an

738
00:43:38,920 --> 00:43:42,879
Speaker 11: eight hour day, it's a sixteen seventeen hour game. He

739
00:43:43,040 --> 00:43:45,640
Speaker 11: was playing at the top of his game. There's no

740
00:43:45,760 --> 00:43:50,640
Speaker 11: doubt about it. Mangione was giving nothing to a family,

741
00:43:51,000 --> 00:43:55,800
Speaker 11: he was giving nothing to society. He was contributing zero.

742
00:43:56,640 --> 00:44:00,840
Speaker 11: And again, what he took cannot even be measured.

743
00:44:01,239 --> 00:44:03,759
Speaker 1: If I hear one more person talk about his back pain,

744
00:44:03,840 --> 00:44:07,879
Speaker 1: that's you, Cali Brantley. I think my head's gonna blow

745
00:44:07,920 --> 00:44:11,520
Speaker 1: off because I have videos of him tickling these girls

746
00:44:11,520 --> 00:44:15,640
Speaker 1: and picking them up just before the shooting. I can't

747
00:44:15,640 --> 00:44:18,640
Speaker 1: show it because it has the girl's faces in it,

748
00:44:19,480 --> 00:44:25,880
Speaker 1: but he was feeling no pain. But it's all about me, Me, me, me, me,

749
00:44:26,120 --> 00:44:30,319
Speaker 1: why me? And he's certainly not the first. Let me

750
00:44:30,360 --> 00:44:33,760
Speaker 1: refresh your recollection, as we say in court with bride

751
00:44:33,920 --> 00:44:38,520
Speaker 1: killer Jamie Lee Komarowski. Listen to her, right, I just

752
00:44:38,560 --> 00:44:40,279
Speaker 1: don't know why it had to happen to.

753
00:44:40,239 --> 00:44:46,160
Speaker 16: Me, because bad things happen to good people, honey, that's why.

754
00:44:46,560 --> 00:44:50,279
Speaker 17: It's just it's just something that happened to you.

755
00:44:51,239 --> 00:44:54,239
Speaker 18: And we are going to deal with the best week past.

756
00:44:54,440 --> 00:44:58,239
Speaker 1: Okay, Dave Mack joining me. Crimestwaris investigator, reporter. You know

757
00:44:58,280 --> 00:45:02,680
Speaker 1: who the bride killer is, right, Ja Lee Komarowski. She's guilty.

758
00:45:03,520 --> 00:45:10,640
Speaker 1: She got totally stinking drunk and plowed into a beautiful

759
00:45:10,719 --> 00:45:15,279
Speaker 1: bride leaving her wedding reception with the groom and killed her.

760
00:45:15,520 --> 00:45:19,319
Speaker 1: And there she is behind bars, going why is this

761
00:45:19,480 --> 00:45:21,160
Speaker 1: happening to me?

762
00:45:22,120 --> 00:45:25,719
Speaker 17: One look and listen to her father, Nancy. What does

763
00:45:25,760 --> 00:45:29,920
Speaker 17: he say, Well, bad things happen to good people. No,

764
00:45:30,080 --> 00:45:34,680
Speaker 17: they don't. You just killed somebody because of your own actions.

765
00:45:34,760 --> 00:45:36,839
Speaker 17: But see, we've got a whole group of people now

766
00:45:37,040 --> 00:45:40,560
Speaker 17: that never want to admit they did anything wrong. Everything

767
00:45:40,680 --> 00:45:44,960
Speaker 17: is on them. How can you possibly think man Joni

768
00:45:45,080 --> 00:45:47,440
Speaker 17: is sitting here saying his life is derailed, Well, he

769
00:45:47,520 --> 00:45:51,359
Speaker 17: destroyed another life and another family. Kambarowski sitting in jail,

770
00:45:51,480 --> 00:45:52,600
Speaker 17: Why is this happening to me?

771
00:45:53,200 --> 00:45:53,399
Speaker 18: Well?

772
00:45:53,400 --> 00:45:53,840
Speaker 14: Why not?

773
00:45:54,080 --> 00:45:54,800
Speaker 11: What do you expect?

774
00:45:54,880 --> 00:45:58,160
Speaker 17: What happened? Sick of this? Nancy is getting really tiresome.

775
00:45:58,480 --> 00:46:02,480
Speaker 1: And there is her victims, Mattha Miller in her wedding

776
00:46:02,560 --> 00:46:06,200
Speaker 1: dress just before she's mowed down dead by Jamie Lee Komrowski.

777
00:46:06,600 --> 00:46:09,239
Speaker 1: And here's I guess this would have to be the

778
00:46:09,280 --> 00:46:14,360
Speaker 1: Miss Universe of Wyme Jody Arius. Check her out. She

779
00:46:14,760 --> 00:46:19,440
Speaker 1: is more concerned about her makeup as she is approaching

780
00:46:19,520 --> 00:46:23,200
Speaker 1: trial in the brutal stabbing and shooting death of her fiance,

781
00:46:24,000 --> 00:46:28,800
Speaker 1: Travis Alexander, who was stabbed at least twenty nine times.

782
00:46:28,880 --> 00:46:31,200
Speaker 1: Joe Scott Morgan and I have argued about that. I

783
00:46:31,280 --> 00:46:35,680
Speaker 1: say it was more than that. Check it out, Jody Arius,

784
00:46:35,760 --> 00:46:37,759
Speaker 1: you should have at least done your makeup before you

785
00:46:37,840 --> 00:46:41,400
Speaker 1: speak to police about murdering your fiance. When he broke

786
00:46:41,520 --> 00:46:45,520
Speaker 1: up and started seeing someone else. That earlier video from

787
00:46:45,560 --> 00:46:49,440
Speaker 1: forty eight hours Joe Scott, Morgan, Professor Forensics, do you

788
00:46:49,560 --> 00:46:54,480
Speaker 1: recall Travis Alexander's death? Hey, stay on that video because

789
00:46:54,560 --> 00:46:56,320
Speaker 1: as they're about to question her about what could have

790
00:46:56,360 --> 00:46:59,920
Speaker 1: happened to Travis Alexander, she starts singing and there you go,

791
00:47:00,360 --> 00:47:03,920
Speaker 1: does a headstand and bemoans the fact she doesn't have

792
00:47:04,000 --> 00:47:07,680
Speaker 1: on her lip gloss. Talk about me, me, me, Joe Scott,

793
00:47:07,680 --> 00:47:08,560
Speaker 1: what happened to Travis?

794
00:47:09,600 --> 00:47:15,400
Speaker 19: Yeah, he was brutally murdered, Nancy. She had him stripped down, nude,

795
00:47:15,880 --> 00:47:19,960
Speaker 19: taking a shower, taking dirty pictures, if you will, And

796
00:47:20,160 --> 00:47:22,640
Speaker 19: while his back is turned, she takes a knife and

797
00:47:22,719 --> 00:47:26,160
Speaker 19: plunges it into his back over and over and over again.

798
00:47:26,520 --> 00:47:29,600
Speaker 19: When he turns around to defend himself to try to

799
00:47:30,080 --> 00:47:34,440
Speaker 19: parry her stabs at him, he gets stabbed in the

800
00:47:34,520 --> 00:47:38,040
Speaker 19: chest as well. And if it wasn't enough, after he

801
00:47:38,160 --> 00:47:42,120
Speaker 19: spits up blood onto his stink, onto his sink, he

802
00:47:42,200 --> 00:47:45,560
Speaker 19: crawls tries to crawl away from her down the hallway.

803
00:47:46,160 --> 00:47:49,319
Speaker 19: She straddles him and cuts his throat from ear to

804
00:47:49,400 --> 00:47:53,279
Speaker 19: ear and the Koudi gras she shoots him after he

805
00:47:53,400 --> 00:47:57,080
Speaker 19: is dead. That's the kind of human that you're looking

806
00:47:57,120 --> 00:48:01,120
Speaker 19: at right here. She's absolutely discovered and it's.

807
00:48:01,000 --> 00:48:05,600
Speaker 1: All about me, me, me, Joscott Morgan, you've seen it all.

808
00:48:05,640 --> 00:48:07,520
Speaker 1: I'm gonna try to say, show you something you haven't

809
00:48:07,560 --> 00:48:11,480
Speaker 1: seen yet. Speaking of me, me, me, and criminal defendants

810
00:48:11,480 --> 00:48:14,520
Speaker 1: focusing only on themselves and not their victims. There is

811
00:48:14,560 --> 00:48:19,240
Speaker 1: the drunk, stinking drunk a d A Assistant district's attorney

812
00:48:19,480 --> 00:48:27,080
Speaker 1: Devin Flannag and listen to her. What the protocol is? Protocol?

813
00:48:27,800 --> 00:48:29,520
Speaker 18: As you turn off the body, can you have to

814
00:48:29,560 --> 00:48:30,080
Speaker 18: turn it off?

815
00:48:30,120 --> 00:48:32,240
Speaker 5: And that's your protocol, lawyer.

816
00:48:32,800 --> 00:48:35,080
Speaker 11: So she knows, well, that's lawyer stuff.

817
00:48:35,080 --> 00:48:35,800
Speaker 10: So that's not true.

818
00:48:35,880 --> 00:48:38,319
Speaker 1: So we got to go, no it is, that's that's

819
00:48:38,320 --> 00:48:38,680
Speaker 1: the law.

820
00:48:38,800 --> 00:48:40,560
Speaker 18: I'm an ag, i'm an aging.

821
00:48:40,880 --> 00:48:41,279
Speaker 10: Good for you.

822
00:48:42,080 --> 00:48:42,400
Speaker 19: Let's go.

823
00:48:42,719 --> 00:48:45,120
Speaker 1: Those two were kicked out of I think it was

824
00:48:45,200 --> 00:48:49,520
Speaker 1: a bar for being drunk and belligerent. Then you've got

825
00:48:49,560 --> 00:48:52,440
Speaker 1: oh gosh, she's been called the screaming band. She and

826
00:48:52,480 --> 00:48:54,480
Speaker 1: do you hear going, I'm an a da, I'm an

827
00:48:54,480 --> 00:48:57,800
Speaker 1: a da. Every sent it starts with I. I I

828
00:48:57,840 --> 00:49:01,880
Speaker 1: listen to this woman, Jocott. He needs to not judge me.

829
00:49:02,200 --> 00:49:05,239
Speaker 1: He he wants to call a salt. We're gonna go

830
00:49:05,320 --> 00:49:09,320
Speaker 1: through that row. No, he wants to go through assault.

831
00:49:10,120 --> 00:49:11,120
Speaker 5: No, we're not doing that.

832
00:49:11,239 --> 00:49:14,919
Speaker 11: Then no, he he claims I assaulted him.

833
00:49:15,320 --> 00:49:16,400
Speaker 5: No, we're not doing that.

834
00:49:17,080 --> 00:49:20,799
Speaker 1: We're not doing that. And then, of course maybe this

835
00:49:20,840 --> 00:49:23,680
Speaker 1: one beats Jody Arius. No, no, no, I'm gonna have

836
00:49:23,680 --> 00:49:26,600
Speaker 1: to go with Luigi Mangioni and his beautiful life de reild.

837
00:49:27,160 --> 00:49:31,600
Speaker 1: I'm sure you recall Shana Hubers that gave her ex

838
00:49:31,840 --> 00:49:37,800
Speaker 1: boyfriend the quote nose jop he always wanted with a handgun. Listen,

839
00:49:38,560 --> 00:49:39,040
Speaker 1: Ary Vain.

840
00:49:40,120 --> 00:49:42,319
Speaker 5: One of our last conversations we had that was good

841
00:49:42,560 --> 00:49:44,279
Speaker 5: was sitting wants my best friend of the dnist to

842
00:49:44,280 --> 00:49:47,560
Speaker 5: do with the near and wants to get a noob,

843
00:49:47,960 --> 00:49:50,880
Speaker 5: just that kind of person. And I'm right here. I

844
00:49:50,920 --> 00:49:52,640
Speaker 5: gave him his nose doob he wanted.

845
00:49:54,600 --> 00:49:55,400
Speaker 18: I want to marry me?

846
00:49:55,480 --> 00:49:58,120
Speaker 15: If they know that I kill one boyfriend and helped.

847
00:50:01,239 --> 00:50:07,920
Speaker 1: I mean, I'm not you know, Joe Scott Morgan, Professor

848
00:50:07,920 --> 00:50:13,359
Speaker 1: Forensics and death Investigator. Your forte is dead, bodies and

849
00:50:13,600 --> 00:50:16,799
Speaker 1: causes of death and modes of death. Let me go

850
00:50:17,040 --> 00:50:23,440
Speaker 1: to special guests joining us now, Doctor Angela Arnold, renowned psychiatrist,

851
00:50:23,520 --> 00:50:26,960
Speaker 1: joining us out of the Atlanta jurisdiction. Doctor Angie Arnold,

852
00:50:27,400 --> 00:50:30,600
Speaker 1: what is that. I don't know if you saw this

853
00:50:30,680 --> 00:50:33,760
Speaker 1: for yourself, but me Andngioni's defensive team is actually arguing

854
00:50:33,960 --> 00:50:37,200
Speaker 1: his life was derailed by the murder charges.

855
00:50:37,840 --> 00:50:41,160
Speaker 20: You know, Nancy, My thought is that's all they've got.

856
00:50:41,560 --> 00:50:45,720
Speaker 20: Who cares if his life was derailed. He is accused

857
00:50:46,400 --> 00:50:51,319
Speaker 20: of murdering someone. Maybe his life should be derailed. But

858
00:50:51,400 --> 00:50:54,480
Speaker 20: the way I feel about this is, Nancy, that's all they've.

859
00:50:54,239 --> 00:50:54,880
Speaker 6: Got to say.

860
00:50:55,160 --> 00:50:56,960
Speaker 20: That is the only thing they've got.

861
00:50:57,520 --> 00:51:00,000
Speaker 1: Let's talk about the facts and the law.

862
00:51:00,320 --> 00:51:03,360
Speaker 9: Listen taking orders as she tells the operator, I have

863
00:51:03,400 --> 00:51:06,920
Speaker 9: a customer here that some other customers were suspicious of that.

864
00:51:07,239 --> 00:51:10,120
Speaker 9: He looks like the CEO shooter in New York, and

865
00:51:10,400 --> 00:51:12,759
Speaker 9: they're generally upset and come to me, and I'm like,

866
00:51:13,040 --> 00:51:16,440
Speaker 9: I can't approach him. The manager continues working and can

867
00:51:16,480 --> 00:51:19,680
Speaker 9: be heard talking about bagels, at one point shouting one

868
00:51:19,719 --> 00:51:22,160
Speaker 9: of them is no better The nine one one operator

869
00:51:22,200 --> 00:51:25,040
Speaker 9: Emily States, testifies about the call and is heard to

870
00:51:25,080 --> 00:51:28,080
Speaker 9: ask for a description, with the manager applying, the only

871
00:51:28,160 --> 00:51:30,359
Speaker 9: thing you can see is the eyebrows.

872
00:51:31,000 --> 00:51:35,440
Speaker 1: Joining us is Sky Lazarro. She's a veteran criminal defense attorney.

873
00:51:35,600 --> 00:51:38,239
Speaker 1: She's practiced in both She's practiced in both state and

874
00:51:38,440 --> 00:51:42,439
Speaker 1: federal court. She is with Ray Quinny and Nebeker. Sky.

875
00:51:42,560 --> 00:51:45,359
Speaker 1: Thank you for being with us. If the defense is

876
00:51:45,640 --> 00:51:52,160
Speaker 1: arguing that Luigimi and Gioni was illegally arrested, the nine

877
00:51:52,200 --> 00:51:57,600
Speaker 1: to one one call occurred before the arrest, So what

878
00:51:57,680 --> 00:52:01,200
Speaker 1: could be the possible grounds for supper that call by

879
00:52:01,280 --> 00:52:02,400
Speaker 1: the McDonald's manager.

880
00:52:03,239 --> 00:52:05,160
Speaker 21: I think they're going to have a really hard time

881
00:52:05,280 --> 00:52:06,759
Speaker 21: keeping the nine one one call out.

882
00:52:06,880 --> 00:52:09,560
Speaker 5: I can understand it from a defense perspective.

883
00:52:09,600 --> 00:52:12,000
Speaker 21: You have to try, but when it comes to nine

884
00:52:12,040 --> 00:52:13,880
Speaker 21: one one calls, as long as you can lay the

885
00:52:13,920 --> 00:52:17,040
Speaker 21: foundation for it, it's probably coming in.

886
00:52:17,800 --> 00:52:21,080
Speaker 1: I can tell you one thing I know, sky Lazarro,

887
00:52:21,280 --> 00:52:24,239
Speaker 1: that they hate about this nine to one one call.

888
00:52:25,200 --> 00:52:30,040
Speaker 1: We had the same thing happen in the Idaho Slighings

889
00:52:30,160 --> 00:52:36,000
Speaker 1: of four Beautiful Idaho University Students, where Dylan Mortenson described

890
00:52:36,280 --> 00:52:39,319
Speaker 1: Brian Coberger's freaky, bushy eyebrows.

891
00:52:39,800 --> 00:52:44,160
Speaker 22: Listen, just remember seeing this figure that was like not fat, obviously,

892
00:52:44,239 --> 00:52:47,319
Speaker 22: but more of like the skinnier tongue build and some

893
00:52:47,480 --> 00:52:47,920
Speaker 22: mask on.

894
00:52:48,080 --> 00:52:49,200
Speaker 5: I don't know what the mask.

895
00:52:49,000 --> 00:52:51,440
Speaker 22: Exactly was, but when I thought about it, it was

896
00:52:51,480 --> 00:52:53,160
Speaker 22: just like covering here and here. I don't know if

897
00:52:53,200 --> 00:52:55,880
Speaker 22: it's covering his mouth his nose or below his mouth

898
00:52:55,920 --> 00:52:58,960
Speaker 22: and nose. I just remember knowing that he was white,

899
00:52:59,000 --> 00:53:00,759
Speaker 22: but I don't know how he was. I just knew

900
00:53:00,840 --> 00:53:03,759
Speaker 22: he was. And this knowing there's like I knew he

901
00:53:03,880 --> 00:53:05,000
Speaker 22: looked at me because of the bushy eye.

902
00:53:05,160 --> 00:53:05,720
Speaker 10: That's all I remember.

903
00:53:06,600 --> 00:53:14,120
Speaker 1: Joining me is Tom Smith, former NYPD detective thirty years now,

904
00:53:14,200 --> 00:53:19,160
Speaker 1: star of the gold Shields podcast, and he covered the

905
00:53:19,320 --> 00:53:22,560
Speaker 1: very same streets where Brian Thompson was gunned down in

906
00:53:22,640 --> 00:53:28,680
Speaker 1: cold Blood. You know, I have had a killer identified.

907
00:53:28,840 --> 00:53:31,680
Speaker 1: He was a chef, by the way, identified by a

908
00:53:31,760 --> 00:53:37,920
Speaker 1: particular limp that he had. I've had a bank robber

909
00:53:38,840 --> 00:53:42,360
Speaker 1: identified because he walked sleugh footed in other words, like

910
00:53:42,400 --> 00:53:47,040
Speaker 1: it up. They're all sorts of ways to identify someone.

911
00:53:47,200 --> 00:53:51,040
Speaker 1: It can be by voice that, it could be any

912
00:53:51,120 --> 00:53:55,200
Speaker 1: number of things. In this case, the McDonald's manager said

913
00:53:56,120 --> 00:54:01,799
Speaker 1: bushy eyebrows, and there's no doubt that's Luigimi. They hate it.

914
00:54:02,040 --> 00:54:05,880
Speaker 1: They hate that identification, Tom.

915
00:54:05,719 --> 00:54:08,879
Speaker 18: Yeah, they do, because you know it shows how important

916
00:54:08,960 --> 00:54:11,280
Speaker 18: Nancy and we did this when we first started talking

917
00:54:11,320 --> 00:54:15,239
Speaker 18: about this case, how important the videos and all the

918
00:54:15,320 --> 00:54:18,680
Speaker 18: photos were to get out to the public, even if

919
00:54:18,719 --> 00:54:20,880
Speaker 18: his face was covered, even if he was in a

920
00:54:20,880 --> 00:54:25,120
Speaker 18: cab or whatever it was, because those eyebrows jumped off

921
00:54:25,160 --> 00:54:28,080
Speaker 18: the page to everyone who looked at it. That was

922
00:54:28,120 --> 00:54:30,600
Speaker 18: the number one thing that everyone looked at as a

923
00:54:31,480 --> 00:54:35,239
Speaker 18: looking point and identification point when it came to him.

924
00:54:35,520 --> 00:54:38,399
Speaker 18: And it just showed that the quicker they got those

925
00:54:38,400 --> 00:54:39,920
Speaker 18: photos out, the better it was.

926
00:54:39,960 --> 00:54:43,120
Speaker 1: In the end of this, you know, I'm very curious

927
00:54:43,360 --> 00:54:48,080
Speaker 1: about this, the fact that he is identified at McDonald's

928
00:54:48,160 --> 00:54:51,880
Speaker 1: by his eyebrows, among other things. Let's say the pictures

929
00:54:52,000 --> 00:54:55,120
Speaker 1: of the McDonald's. There you go, there he is at McDonald's.

930
00:54:55,800 --> 00:54:58,640
Speaker 1: But Skyle is all right. Don't you think that the

931
00:54:58,680 --> 00:55:01,640
Speaker 1: defense should be more concerned learned about the fact that

932
00:55:01,719 --> 00:55:04,600
Speaker 1: he can be identified. At the time of the killing,

933
00:55:05,560 --> 00:55:07,520
Speaker 1: he showed his face repeatedly.

934
00:55:08,760 --> 00:55:09,520
Speaker 7: I agree with you.

935
00:55:09,600 --> 00:55:11,440
Speaker 21: He probably should have been a little bit more careful

936
00:55:11,480 --> 00:55:13,799
Speaker 21: at that time and that should be the stuff they're

937
00:55:13,800 --> 00:55:16,480
Speaker 21: seeking to exclude, and maybe they will, I think as

938
00:55:16,520 --> 00:55:18,040
Speaker 21: it goes to the nine to one one call the

939
00:55:18,080 --> 00:55:23,359
Speaker 21: defenses probably only argument is that these are witnesses who

940
00:55:23,480 --> 00:55:27,000
Speaker 21: identified him, not from the shooting. They weren't there that night,

941
00:55:27,120 --> 00:55:29,880
Speaker 21: so they can't say I saw him do the shooting.

942
00:55:30,360 --> 00:55:33,279
Speaker 21: They just want to exclude it because he's at the McDonald's.

943
00:55:33,320 --> 00:55:35,960
Speaker 21: The problem is they get to the McDonald's and it

944
00:55:36,000 --> 00:55:36,600
Speaker 21: turns out.

945
00:55:36,440 --> 00:55:40,319
Speaker 1: To be him speaking of getting to the McDonald's. The

946
00:55:40,360 --> 00:55:45,160
Speaker 1: defense is arguing that while he wasn't really under arrest,

947
00:55:45,320 --> 00:55:49,080
Speaker 1: he was kind of under arrest because so many police

948
00:55:49,080 --> 00:55:53,080
Speaker 1: started showing up and massing at the McDonald's. They were concerned,

949
00:55:53,120 --> 00:55:57,439
Speaker 1: if this is Luigi Mangioni, the healthcare assassin, he's probably armed.

950
00:55:57,480 --> 00:56:00,279
Speaker 1: As a matter of fact, he was. He was armed.

951
00:56:00,280 --> 00:56:03,000
Speaker 1: There was a weapon in his backpack sitting right there

952
00:56:03,160 --> 00:56:06,440
Speaker 1: with him, so they were right now. What the defense

953
00:56:06,520 --> 00:56:10,439
Speaker 1: is arguing is that having multipolice, multiple police officers show

954
00:56:10,560 --> 00:56:14,640
Speaker 1: up is tantamount equal to arresting him. Why do we

955
00:56:14,719 --> 00:56:19,440
Speaker 1: care because police engage in a conversation with him to

956
00:56:19,600 --> 00:56:23,680
Speaker 1: identify him, and he spilled a lot of information in

957
00:56:23,680 --> 00:56:28,120
Speaker 1: that conversation. The state says it was before his arrest.

958
00:56:28,680 --> 00:56:32,759
Speaker 1: Why does it matter because a statement taken while you

959
00:56:32,840 --> 00:56:39,399
Speaker 1: are in custody without miranda will be suppressed. So they

960
00:56:39,400 --> 00:56:42,600
Speaker 1: want the judge to believe that because several police officers

961
00:56:42,680 --> 00:56:46,239
Speaker 1: showed up at McDonald's, that me and Gioni was effectively

962
00:56:46,640 --> 00:56:51,080
Speaker 1: under arrest in any statements he made pre miranda should

963
00:56:51,080 --> 00:56:55,120
Speaker 1: be suppressed. That's not going to happen. When I walk

964
00:56:55,239 --> 00:56:59,200
Speaker 1: into let's just pretend a Chipotle and all the Atlantic

965
00:56:59,200 --> 00:57:02,120
Speaker 1: PD are in the getting a salad, I don't feel

966
00:57:02,160 --> 00:57:04,960
Speaker 1: like I'm under arrest. Think about it.

967
00:57:05,280 --> 00:57:09,600
Speaker 9: Listen, Mangoni stares at monitors showing his arrest at McDonald's.

968
00:57:09,800 --> 00:57:13,080
Speaker 9: Mangoni sits to eat breakfast. At nine oh three. Eleven

969
00:57:13,160 --> 00:57:15,759
Speaker 9: minutes later, the nine one one call is made. Nine

970
00:57:15,840 --> 00:57:18,920
Speaker 9: twenty eight two police officers show up and begin talking

971
00:57:18,960 --> 00:57:22,120
Speaker 9: to Mangoni. The restaurant slowly begins to fill with police

972
00:57:22,200 --> 00:57:25,280
Speaker 9: until nine forty two, when at least eight officers are

973
00:57:25,320 --> 00:57:28,240
Speaker 9: visible on the recording. The defense claims packing the place

974
00:57:28,280 --> 00:57:32,080
Speaker 9: with police amounts to unlawful attention prior to Mangoni's arrest.

975
00:57:32,520 --> 00:57:36,200
Speaker 9: Agnifilo argues police surrounding Mangoni and the McDonald's this tantamount

976
00:57:36,200 --> 00:57:40,160
Speaker 9: to illegally detaining the alleged killer Agnifilo also takes exception

977
00:57:40,360 --> 00:57:43,320
Speaker 9: with the way officers treated Mangoni's backpack during the arrest,

978
00:57:43,360 --> 00:57:46,440
Speaker 9: claiming it was warrantlessly searched on the scene.

979
00:57:46,960 --> 00:57:50,040
Speaker 1: In other words, they looked in his backpack. Cheryl McCollum

980
00:57:50,240 --> 00:57:53,320
Speaker 1: joining me. She is not only a crime scene investigator

981
00:57:53,360 --> 00:57:56,960
Speaker 1: and founder of the Cold Case Research Institute, but she

982
00:57:57,040 --> 00:58:00,080
Speaker 1: is also the star of a hit podcast which I

983
00:57:59,880 --> 00:58:03,800
Speaker 1: actually put on a loop sometimes, Cheryl McCollum, Zone seven.

984
00:58:04,640 --> 00:58:07,160
Speaker 1: Cheryl McCollum, has it ever dawned on you when you

985
00:58:07,200 --> 00:58:10,120
Speaker 1: go into McDonald's for a cup of coffee, that you're

986
00:58:10,240 --> 00:58:15,200
Speaker 1: arresting somebody, that you're a mere presence equals an arrest,

987
00:58:15,440 --> 00:58:18,520
Speaker 1: because that's what they're arguing and what they're trying to do, Cheryl,

988
00:58:18,880 --> 00:58:22,200
Speaker 1: is get out from under what Manngione said to police

989
00:58:22,240 --> 00:58:28,560
Speaker 1: pre miranda and them finding evidence in his backpack.

990
00:58:30,280 --> 00:58:32,400
Speaker 11: I think the body cam is going to be so

991
00:58:32,520 --> 00:58:36,360
Speaker 11: critical here because it's going to show all of his actions.

992
00:58:36,480 --> 00:58:39,000
Speaker 11: It's going to, you know, show the world that he

993
00:58:39,080 --> 00:58:42,000
Speaker 11: stood up and thought he was under arrest. Only a

994
00:58:42,000 --> 00:58:45,520
Speaker 11: guilty person would think that, Nancy. What the defense is

995
00:58:45,560 --> 00:58:49,520
Speaker 11: doing is there basically, look, you use manure to make

996
00:58:49,600 --> 00:58:53,480
Speaker 11: something grow, right, So they are planting and cultivating and

997
00:58:53,520 --> 00:58:56,600
Speaker 11: trying to grow this story that he's the victim, that

998
00:58:56,680 --> 00:58:59,440
Speaker 11: he didn't do anything, that he was under arrest and

999
00:58:59,480 --> 00:59:02,800
Speaker 11: now use anything, and it's just be it.

1000
00:59:03,240 --> 00:59:07,120
Speaker 1: While this legal warfare is taking place in a courtroom,

1001
00:59:07,560 --> 00:59:12,840
Speaker 1: Manzione's attorneys continue to insist that he's the victim.

1002
00:59:13,400 --> 00:59:16,520
Speaker 23: He's a young man, and he is being treated like

1003
00:59:16,520 --> 00:59:20,560
Speaker 23: a human pingpong ball between two warring jurisdictions here, and

1004
00:59:20,840 --> 00:59:27,200
Speaker 23: they are literally treating him like he is like some

1005
00:59:27,240 --> 00:59:30,000
Speaker 23: sort of political fodder, like some sort of spectacle.

1006
00:59:30,160 --> 00:59:32,160
Speaker 1: He was on display for everyone.

1007
00:59:31,800 --> 00:59:34,680
Speaker 23: To see in the biggest staged purp walk I've ever

1008
00:59:34,760 --> 00:59:37,440
Speaker 23: seen in my career. There was no reason for the

1009
00:59:37,560 --> 00:59:41,000
Speaker 23: NYPD and everybody to have these big assault rifles that frankly,

1010
00:59:41,040 --> 00:59:43,400
Speaker 23: I had no idea it was in their arsenal, and

1011
00:59:43,480 --> 00:59:46,960
Speaker 23: to have all of these these the press there, the

1012
00:59:47,000 --> 00:59:50,040
Speaker 23: media there, It was like perfectly choreographed. And what was

1013
00:59:50,080 --> 00:59:53,040
Speaker 23: the New York City mayor doing at this press conference?

1014
00:59:53,400 --> 00:59:55,720
Speaker 14: He is a walking, talking contradiction.

1015
00:59:55,880 --> 01:00:00,760
Speaker 11: He supposedly is again this wealthy ceo, yet he comes

1016
01:00:00,800 --> 01:00:01,280
Speaker 11: for money.

1017
01:00:01,320 --> 01:00:05,040
Speaker 1: This is a guy living in a high rise in Honolulu,

1018
01:00:05,240 --> 01:00:07,480
Speaker 1: waking up to the beach every morning. Did she wake

1019
01:00:07,560 --> 01:00:08,720
Speaker 1: up to a BH this morning?

1020
01:00:08,720 --> 01:00:09,520
Speaker 22: That I certainly not.

1021
01:00:10,760 --> 01:00:14,800
Speaker 1: The Luigi Mangioni defense is fighting tooth and nail to

1022
01:00:14,960 --> 01:00:17,919
Speaker 1: keep out what happened in that McDonald's, and as Cheryl

1023
01:00:18,000 --> 01:00:20,400
Speaker 1: McCombs pointing out, that bodycam is going to be so

1024
01:00:20,560 --> 01:00:23,480
Speaker 1: significant because it doesn't matter what the state says. It

1025
01:00:23,480 --> 01:00:26,320
Speaker 1: doesn't matter what the defense says or how much Luigim

1026
01:00:26,320 --> 01:00:29,200
Speaker 1: Mangioni claims he's the victim. What matters is what really

1027
01:00:29,360 --> 01:00:32,120
Speaker 1: happened inside that McDonald's. They're not going to get the

1028
01:00:32,200 --> 01:00:36,360
Speaker 1: nine one one call suppressed, that's not happening. But what

1029
01:00:36,720 --> 01:00:39,400
Speaker 1: happened in the McDonald's is the state going to lose

1030
01:00:39,600 --> 01:00:46,520
Speaker 1: valuable evidence on allegal technicality? Why is it they want

1031
01:00:47,000 --> 01:00:52,960
Speaker 1: that backpack suppressed? Straight out to investigator at large for

1032
01:00:53,040 --> 01:00:58,760
Speaker 1: dailymail dot Com kill Leb Brantley. What was in the backpack? Nancy?

1033
01:00:58,800 --> 01:01:01,920
Speaker 12: There was a three D p gun. It's a handgun

1034
01:01:02,000 --> 01:01:05,520
Speaker 12: which is believed to could possibly be the murder weapon.

1035
01:01:05,680 --> 01:01:08,720
Speaker 12: There was a notebook with handwritten notes in it. Then

1036
01:01:08,760 --> 01:01:11,440
Speaker 12: he also had a knife on him, which was discovered

1037
01:01:11,440 --> 01:01:14,400
Speaker 12: about twenty minutes later. So he was armed, and at

1038
01:01:14,400 --> 01:01:16,200
Speaker 12: that point he was considered very dangerous.

1039
01:01:16,560 --> 01:01:20,040
Speaker 1: Okay, hold on, what did you say? Was written in

1040
01:01:20,160 --> 01:01:23,600
Speaker 1: Mangione's spiral notebook that was in his backpack.

1041
01:01:23,480 --> 01:01:26,720
Speaker 12: That he wanted any use the word whack the healthcare

1042
01:01:26,760 --> 01:01:30,960
Speaker 12: CEO whack meaning kill herd destroy.

1043
01:01:31,360 --> 01:01:35,240
Speaker 1: No wonder they want it suppressed to Dave mac crime

1044
01:01:35,320 --> 01:01:40,280
Speaker 1: Stori's investigative reporter, tell me about the three D gun

1045
01:01:40,400 --> 01:01:42,240
Speaker 1: sometimes called a ghost gun.

1046
01:01:42,600 --> 01:01:45,040
Speaker 17: But Nancy, you know we've been we have not been

1047
01:01:45,080 --> 01:01:48,920
Speaker 17: given the very specifics of what type of gun. We

1048
01:01:49,000 --> 01:01:51,880
Speaker 17: know it's a pistol, but we don't know the exact

1049
01:01:51,960 --> 01:01:55,600
Speaker 17: name of it. Three D printed firearms take a massive

1050
01:01:55,600 --> 01:01:58,880
Speaker 17: amount of time and filament far more than any other.

1051
01:02:00,480 --> 01:02:02,720
Speaker 17: Is the most common, and it's the easiest one to

1052
01:02:02,760 --> 01:02:05,640
Speaker 17: print and takes the shortest amount of time. The Liberator

1053
01:02:05,920 --> 01:02:10,880
Speaker 17: takes thirty hours of constant printing with non stop printing.

1054
01:02:10,960 --> 01:02:14,440
Speaker 17: Nancy thirty hours to print the easiest of all the pistols.

1055
01:02:14,800 --> 01:02:18,040
Speaker 1: Tom Smith, here's the thing with a ghost gun is

1056
01:02:18,040 --> 01:02:24,640
Speaker 1: made on a three D printer. Tom, It's unserialized. That's

1057
01:02:24,680 --> 01:02:29,800
Speaker 1: why they're so popular amongst criminals. You think Grandpa as

1058
01:02:29,920 --> 01:02:32,720
Speaker 1: is long gun is shotgun under the bed. You think

1059
01:02:32,760 --> 01:02:35,560
Speaker 1: it's a three D printed gun. No, it's got a

1060
01:02:35,600 --> 01:02:40,520
Speaker 1: serial number. Why is it so serious that a ghost

1061
01:02:40,640 --> 01:02:42,720
Speaker 1: gun is un serialized?

1062
01:02:44,160 --> 01:02:46,960
Speaker 18: Well, because you can't trace it. No matter what you

1063
01:02:47,080 --> 01:02:49,920
Speaker 18: do with that weapon, it cannot be traced back to you.

1064
01:02:50,040 --> 01:02:53,880
Speaker 18: And that is why so many criminals and Luigi Maggioni

1065
01:02:54,000 --> 01:02:57,280
Speaker 18: of course went to the lengths that he did to

1066
01:02:57,440 --> 01:03:00,640
Speaker 18: make that gun, because that is the pre term and

1067
01:03:00,680 --> 01:03:04,960
Speaker 18: premeditation of it. Already, he's already thinking ahead of that

1068
01:03:05,080 --> 01:03:07,919
Speaker 18: gun not being traced to him, and that is part

1069
01:03:07,960 --> 01:03:08,600
Speaker 18: of this as well.

1070
01:03:09,080 --> 01:03:13,320
Speaker 1: Tom Smith, you're exactly correct. To Joseph Scott Morgan, let

1071
01:03:13,320 --> 01:03:17,320
Speaker 1: me introduce him formally. He is a professor of forensics

1072
01:03:17,360 --> 01:03:20,800
Speaker 1: at Jacksonville State University with an incredible criminal procedure program.

1073
01:03:21,200 --> 01:03:23,720
Speaker 1: He's the author of Blood Beneath My Feet on Amazon.

1074
01:03:24,000 --> 01:03:26,960
Speaker 1: He is a death investigator that has handled thousands of

1075
01:03:27,080 --> 01:03:31,000
Speaker 1: death scenes, and he's a star of hit podcast Body.

1076
01:03:31,000 --> 01:03:36,840
Speaker 1: Back to Joe Scott Morgan. Joe Scott, what is a

1077
01:03:37,000 --> 01:03:40,520
Speaker 1: suppressor or commonly known as a silencer.

1078
01:03:42,400 --> 01:03:46,480
Speaker 19: Yeah, stay away from the term silencer, because no weapon

1079
01:03:46,520 --> 01:03:49,880
Speaker 19: is silenced, it is suppressed. That means that the crack

1080
01:03:49,960 --> 01:03:54,760
Speaker 19: of the sound. You're talking about a perhaps supersonic round.

1081
01:03:54,840 --> 01:03:57,680
Speaker 19: It's traveling, you know, past the speed of sounds. So

1082
01:03:57,720 --> 01:04:00,720
Speaker 19: what you want to do is reduce that sound that's

1083
01:04:00,760 --> 01:04:03,919
Speaker 19: put forth from the muzzle. If you take a close look,

1084
01:04:03,960 --> 01:04:06,160
Speaker 19: I'm glad that you have that image. You take a

1085
01:04:06,200 --> 01:04:09,360
Speaker 19: close look at that weapon there. The end of that

1086
01:04:09,520 --> 01:04:13,840
Speaker 19: muzzle is actually threaded. What that means is is that

1087
01:04:14,200 --> 01:04:18,520
Speaker 19: it's adaptable. It's adaptable to contain a suppressor. The suppressor

1088
01:04:18,600 --> 01:04:22,480
Speaker 19: is displayed here. It's that long black cylindrical object there.

1089
01:04:22,520 --> 01:04:25,400
Speaker 19: It can be screwed on on the end. Well, you

1090
01:04:25,440 --> 01:04:27,840
Speaker 19: want to knock down the sound. So it's not going

1091
01:04:27,880 --> 01:04:30,520
Speaker 19: to draw attention to you when you fired this thing.

1092
01:04:31,000 --> 01:04:34,240
Speaker 19: Because let's just say that it is a non suppressed weapon.

1093
01:04:34,640 --> 01:04:37,200
Speaker 19: This thing's going to echo through the canyons down there

1094
01:04:37,200 --> 01:04:39,920
Speaker 19: in Manhattan, through all of those buildings. You'll still hear

1095
01:04:39,960 --> 01:04:42,920
Speaker 19: a sound, but it'll be a slight crack. It's not

1096
01:04:43,080 --> 01:04:46,520
Speaker 19: like it's portrayed in movies, okay, But it will reduce

1097
01:04:46,560 --> 01:04:49,200
Speaker 19: the sound, it doesn't completely eliminate it. And the purpose

1098
01:04:49,240 --> 01:04:51,320
Speaker 19: of this is so that you're not going to draw

1099
01:04:51,400 --> 01:04:56,840
Speaker 19: attention to anyone. It does reduce, say, some of the

1100
01:04:56,880 --> 01:05:00,560
Speaker 19: capabilities of the weapon as far as the effec activeness

1101
01:05:00,640 --> 01:05:03,640
Speaker 19: of it at a greater range. But this is this

1102
01:05:03,680 --> 01:05:05,880
Speaker 19: is not a close range. As a matter of fact,

1103
01:05:05,920 --> 01:05:08,520
Speaker 19: if we were to look at the body here, it

1104
01:05:08,560 --> 01:05:11,440
Speaker 19: would be classified as indeterminate because you're not going to

1105
01:05:11,520 --> 01:05:16,280
Speaker 19: have any kind of uh sut deposition gun unperned gunpowder.

1106
01:05:16,400 --> 01:05:18,720
Speaker 19: It will have fallen away by that time. But this

1107
01:05:18,880 --> 01:05:21,480
Speaker 19: is not too distant of a shot. You'll still have

1108
01:05:21,600 --> 01:05:25,960
Speaker 19: that same muzzle velocity striking into Brian Thompson's body. It's

1109
01:05:25,960 --> 01:05:27,000
Speaker 19: effectively lethal.

1110
01:05:27,640 --> 01:05:34,160
Speaker 1: Joining me now, the star of Zone seven podcast, Cheryl McCollum,

1111
01:05:34,240 --> 01:05:42,920
Speaker 1: is with us, Cheryl who has un serialized guns and silencers.

1112
01:05:42,640 --> 01:05:46,160
Speaker 11: Criminals and methy There's another thing. Even though this is

1113
01:05:46,160 --> 01:05:49,439
Speaker 11: a three D printed weapon, it's still going to lead

1114
01:05:49,680 --> 01:05:53,360
Speaker 11: marking on capons and they're going to be able to be,

1115
01:05:54,040 --> 01:05:58,240
Speaker 11: you know, determined that this weapon fired the bullet that

1116
01:05:58,480 --> 01:06:02,520
Speaker 11: murdered Brian Thompson. So forensically, it's not going to get

1117
01:06:02,600 --> 01:06:05,240
Speaker 11: you out of trouble. They may not can trace it

1118
01:06:05,280 --> 01:06:10,080
Speaker 11: to a manufacturer, to a bar that they can absolutely

1119
01:06:10,440 --> 01:06:14,400
Speaker 11: determine that that bullet was fired by that weapon.

1120
01:06:14,760 --> 01:06:18,840
Speaker 1: Cheryl McCollum, you're so right. And Tom Smith, this is

1121
01:06:18,920 --> 01:06:22,200
Speaker 1: like a fish in water for you. Every day you

1122
01:06:22,320 --> 01:06:26,000
Speaker 1: were getting off the streets of Manhattan guns to match

1123
01:06:26,080 --> 01:06:32,600
Speaker 1: with bullets, bullets that were literally dug out of victims' bodies.

1124
01:06:33,280 --> 01:06:39,200
Speaker 1: And Cheryl said it right. A bullet hurls down the

1125
01:06:39,200 --> 01:06:42,920
Speaker 1: barrel of a gun, that gun may look like all

1126
01:06:42,920 --> 01:06:46,000
Speaker 1: the other guns in the gun store showcase, but it's

1127
01:06:46,040 --> 01:06:51,800
Speaker 1: not because inside the barrel, the metal has cooled in

1128
01:06:51,840 --> 01:06:56,320
Speaker 1: a certain way and it leaves ridges and imperfections on

1129
01:06:56,400 --> 01:07:00,400
Speaker 1: the inside of the barrel, and as that bullet shoots

1130
01:07:00,560 --> 01:07:07,880
Speaker 1: down the barrel, it is forever marked by those imperfections.

1131
01:07:08,200 --> 01:07:10,160
Speaker 1: So when you take the murder weapon to the crime

1132
01:07:10,240 --> 01:07:13,720
Speaker 1: lab and you shoot a bullet through the murder weapon,

1133
01:07:14,200 --> 01:07:16,760
Speaker 1: and you take the known bullet dug out of the

1134
01:07:16,840 --> 01:07:20,000
Speaker 1: victim and you put it under a microscope next to

1135
01:07:20,200 --> 01:07:25,040
Speaker 1: the one you just shot, it's like a fingerprint. No

1136
01:07:25,200 --> 01:07:28,320
Speaker 1: other gun, be it a three D printed gun, a

1137
01:07:28,400 --> 01:07:33,760
Speaker 1: Grandma's Bessie's out from under her her mattress, you can

1138
01:07:33,920 --> 01:07:38,840
Speaker 1: track and identify like a fingerprint, that bullet came from

1139
01:07:38,920 --> 01:07:42,920
Speaker 1: that gun. Isn't that true?

1140
01:07:43,640 --> 01:07:45,160
Speaker 18: And that's the best way to say it. It's it's

1141
01:07:45,240 --> 01:07:48,240
Speaker 18: the gun's fingerprint and the ballistic check of that in

1142
01:07:48,280 --> 01:07:50,800
Speaker 18: the twist marks and all of that is what you

1143
01:07:50,880 --> 01:07:55,000
Speaker 18: match up. And it is a fingerprint that is unmatchable,

1144
01:07:55,200 --> 01:07:58,040
Speaker 18: you know, to anyone else. It is strictly to that

1145
01:07:58,160 --> 01:08:01,960
Speaker 18: weapon that you will catch up the weapon, take the

1146
01:08:02,360 --> 01:08:05,040
Speaker 18: round taken out of the victim, and match it up.

1147
01:08:05,080 --> 01:08:08,000
Speaker 18: And that is damaging when it comes to court.

1148
01:08:08,280 --> 01:08:11,000
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, and Tom Smith, that is why they are

1149
01:08:11,120 --> 01:08:16,040
Speaker 1: fighting to the death in court to keep that jury

1150
01:08:16,080 --> 01:08:20,759
Speaker 1: from every knowing of a ballistics match that his three

1151
01:08:20,880 --> 01:08:26,479
Speaker 1: D pretty gun is the murder weapon. Listened to Alvin Bragg,

1152
01:08:26,520 --> 01:08:28,600
Speaker 1: the Manhattan District Attorney.

1153
01:08:28,920 --> 01:08:31,360
Speaker 16: For nearly an hour. We alleged the defendant waited in

1154
01:08:31,400 --> 01:08:35,839
Speaker 16: the area near the Hilton Hotel waiting for mister Thompson

1155
01:08:35,920 --> 01:08:39,679
Speaker 16: to appear. From six thirty eight am to six forty

1156
01:08:39,680 --> 01:08:42,320
Speaker 16: four am. The defendant stood across from the entrance of

1157
01:08:42,320 --> 01:08:45,200
Speaker 16: the hotel on West fifty fourth Street. When he saw

1158
01:08:45,240 --> 01:08:49,040
Speaker 16: mister Thompson, he crossed the street and approached him from behind.

1159
01:08:49,880 --> 01:08:54,479
Speaker 1: Caleb Brantley, Daily Mail. The defense for Luigi Manngiani is

1160
01:08:54,479 --> 01:08:59,000
Speaker 1: also trying to suppress statements he allegedly made to his guards.

1161
01:08:59,000 --> 01:09:03,679
Speaker 1: He had special guard yards behind bars, so nothing would

1162
01:09:03,680 --> 01:09:07,360
Speaker 1: happen to him like it did to Epstein. So let's

1163
01:09:07,360 --> 01:09:12,000
Speaker 1: first talk about Thomas Rivers, the former British infantryman who

1164
01:09:12,080 --> 01:09:19,280
Speaker 1: was minding Mangioni. What did Mangioni allegedly say to Rivers? Nancy.

1165
01:09:19,360 --> 01:09:23,439
Speaker 12: Luigi was held for ten days in Pennsylvania, and he

1166
01:09:23,560 --> 01:09:26,920
Speaker 12: had spoken about being very disappointed that he was being

1167
01:09:27,000 --> 01:09:31,960
Speaker 12: compared to the unibomber. He also said that mainstream media

1168
01:09:32,000 --> 01:09:34,840
Speaker 12: was more focused on crime, and that when you looked

1169
01:09:34,840 --> 01:09:38,000
Speaker 12: at social media, they were really more focused about the

1170
01:09:38,040 --> 01:09:42,479
Speaker 12: healthcare industry, which, according to this officer, is what Luigi said.

1171
01:09:42,640 --> 01:09:44,160
Speaker 12: This was really about Wow.

1172
01:09:44,320 --> 01:09:48,120
Speaker 1: Sounds like a confession to me. Sky, lazarro Oopsie.

1173
01:09:47,479 --> 01:09:49,479
Speaker 21: Nancy, I agree and disagree.

1174
01:09:49,520 --> 01:09:50,240
Speaker 1: Here's the problem.

1175
01:09:50,280 --> 01:09:53,400
Speaker 21: They put these guys in a situation like that, in

1176
01:09:53,520 --> 01:09:56,640
Speaker 21: solitary where they can't talk to anybody else. And the

1177
01:09:56,720 --> 01:10:00,000
Speaker 21: other thing is that we know these officers didn't document

1178
01:10:00,040 --> 01:10:02,519
Speaker 21: any of this. They're supposed to be taking notes seven

1179
01:10:02,560 --> 01:10:06,759
Speaker 21: times an hour about what he's doing and his well being,

1180
01:10:06,840 --> 01:10:09,320
Speaker 21: and they don't write down anything like he just made.

1181
01:10:09,160 --> 01:10:09,759
Speaker 5: An a mission.

1182
01:10:12,800 --> 01:10:16,000
Speaker 1: Sky Lazarro, did you say it's a problem he's being

1183
01:10:16,040 --> 01:10:19,840
Speaker 1: held in solitary. You know who else is in solitary,

1184
01:10:19,920 --> 01:10:24,799
Speaker 1: Brian Thompson, Except his is a casket. So you're telling

1185
01:10:24,840 --> 01:10:28,280
Speaker 1: me again, I can't believe you're buying into this sky Lazarro,

1186
01:10:28,840 --> 01:10:31,439
Speaker 1: that he's the one that's being tormented. You know what else?

1187
01:10:31,479 --> 01:10:36,040
Speaker 1: He told Rivers that Rivers should really read Doors a

1188
01:10:36,080 --> 01:10:41,160
Speaker 1: perception by all this Huxley, which is all about psychedelic

1189
01:10:41,240 --> 01:10:47,040
Speaker 1: drug trips and mystical interpretations. Needless to say, Rivers did

1190
01:10:47,080 --> 01:10:52,360
Speaker 1: not read the book. But there is another guard that

1191
01:10:52,439 --> 01:10:55,200
Speaker 1: he talked to. This is the one I'm really interested in.

1192
01:10:55,240 --> 01:10:59,080
Speaker 9: Listen, Officer Matt Henry wasn't chatty with the alleged killer.

1193
01:10:59,120 --> 01:11:01,800
Speaker 9: That doesn't stop man from telling Henry he was caught

1194
01:11:01,800 --> 01:11:04,240
Speaker 9: with a three D printed firearm, the weapon used to

1195
01:11:04,320 --> 01:11:08,759
Speaker 9: murder CEO Brian Thompson. Attorney Mark Agnifilo challenges Henry, saying,

1196
01:11:09,080 --> 01:11:11,400
Speaker 9: so he just blurted out to you that he had

1197
01:11:11,400 --> 01:11:15,720
Speaker 9: a three D printed pistol. Henry drily replies, yes too.

1198
01:11:15,920 --> 01:11:19,200
Speaker 1: Doctor Angela Arnold joining us. She's a renowned psychiatrist out

1199
01:11:19,200 --> 01:11:24,040
Speaker 1: of the Atlanta Jurisdiction, at Angela Arnold dot com forim

1200
01:11:24,120 --> 01:11:28,639
Speaker 1: Professor Psychiatry. It goes on and on. Former medical director

1201
01:11:28,680 --> 01:11:32,760
Speaker 1: at the psychiatric Obgy Inklin at Grady, which never has

1202
01:11:32,840 --> 01:11:35,720
Speaker 1: a lack of business. I found a lot of witnesses

1203
01:11:36,320 --> 01:11:41,880
Speaker 1: and victims at Grady Hospital, Doctor Angela Arnold. Why is

1204
01:11:41,960 --> 01:11:43,680
Speaker 1: this so hard? I bet a jury's not going to

1205
01:11:43,720 --> 01:11:46,880
Speaker 1: have a hard time believing this that Luigi Mangioni, who

1206
01:11:46,880 --> 01:11:51,680
Speaker 1: has had a lifetime of entitlement, would blab to his

1207
01:11:51,760 --> 01:11:55,800
Speaker 1: guards why they're his new friends? They would never betray him?

1208
01:11:56,320 --> 01:11:57,120
Speaker 1: Right yep?

1209
01:11:57,720 --> 01:11:58,240
Speaker 5: Oh sure?

1210
01:11:58,320 --> 01:12:02,599
Speaker 24: And you know, Nancy, he probably suffers from some sort

1211
01:12:02,640 --> 01:12:07,320
Speaker 24: of personality disorder in which he thinks about himself an

1212
01:12:07,360 --> 01:12:10,120
Speaker 24: awful lot. So he really doesn't He may not see

1213
01:12:10,120 --> 01:12:14,519
Speaker 24: that he's done anything wrong, and he probably hasn't suffered

1214
01:12:14,560 --> 01:12:17,519
Speaker 24: any consequences for any of his actions in the past,

1215
01:12:18,240 --> 01:12:21,759
Speaker 24: and so that would make him more likely to almost

1216
01:12:21,800 --> 01:12:24,200
Speaker 24: be bragging about what he's done and to let other

1217
01:12:24,240 --> 01:12:28,000
Speaker 24: people know what he's done. This is typical for his

1218
01:12:28,080 --> 01:12:31,880
Speaker 24: behavior in all likelihood throughout his existence.

1219
01:12:32,680 --> 01:12:37,639
Speaker 1: Tom Smith joining me, former NYPD detective thirty years now,

1220
01:12:37,800 --> 01:12:43,120
Speaker 1: star co host of gold Shields podcast, Tom What is Wrong?

1221
01:12:43,120 --> 01:12:47,559
Speaker 1: With rich people. Do they think they can just get

1222
01:12:47,600 --> 01:12:52,720
Speaker 1: away with everything, anything and everything they can confess they

1223
01:12:52,720 --> 01:12:54,680
Speaker 1: can stay. Yeah, they caught me with a three D

1224
01:12:54,800 --> 01:13:00,720
Speaker 1: print and gun, which is the murder Weapon's wrong with them?

1225
01:13:00,760 --> 01:13:05,360
Speaker 1: Have you noticed the same sense of entitlement sometimes does

1226
01:13:05,520 --> 01:13:09,560
Speaker 1: them in because they think they can buy off everybody,

1227
01:13:09,560 --> 01:13:11,920
Speaker 1: that everybody wants to be their friend, but these two

1228
01:13:11,960 --> 01:13:13,599
Speaker 1: guards do not want to be his friend.

1229
01:13:15,360 --> 01:13:18,800
Speaker 18: Yeah, they've lived their whole life like this, Nancy. You know,

1230
01:13:18,840 --> 01:13:21,320
Speaker 18: they've gotten what they wanted. They'd either pay for it

1231
01:13:21,880 --> 01:13:25,360
Speaker 18: or the power that they have has influenced someone's decision

1232
01:13:25,439 --> 01:13:28,080
Speaker 18: into what they're getting or what they're doing. And they

1233
01:13:28,200 --> 01:13:31,839
Speaker 18: just think that holds true for every aspect of their life,

1234
01:13:32,040 --> 01:13:35,800
Speaker 18: including killing someone. I mean, that's how deranged they are

1235
01:13:35,880 --> 01:13:38,920
Speaker 18: when it comes to the entitlement that they believe they

1236
01:13:38,920 --> 01:13:43,200
Speaker 18: are are owed when it comes to murder or you know,

1237
01:13:43,320 --> 01:13:46,400
Speaker 18: killing a bride. We did that show. You know, it's

1238
01:13:46,479 --> 01:13:49,040
Speaker 18: just constant and it just keeps coming up and it's

1239
01:13:49,080 --> 01:13:50,280
Speaker 18: absolutely disgusting.

1240
01:13:51,280 --> 01:13:52,840
Speaker 1: Tom. I want you to look at a picture if

1241
01:13:52,880 --> 01:13:54,200
Speaker 1: I can get the controller and to put it up

1242
01:13:54,200 --> 01:13:56,439
Speaker 1: for me, dig through those files. I want to see

1243
01:13:56,479 --> 01:14:02,479
Speaker 1: the picture allegedly Mangiani, who's presumed innocent, holding up the

1244
01:14:02,520 --> 01:14:07,320
Speaker 1: three D with the silencer on it, pointing directly at

1245
01:14:07,360 --> 01:14:12,840
Speaker 1: Brian Thompson's back. According to police, he waited an hour

1246
01:14:13,240 --> 01:14:19,000
Speaker 1: for just the right moment. There's his backpack, which was

1247
01:14:19,000 --> 01:14:22,559
Speaker 1: recovered at the McDonald's. There's his outfit which he had

1248
01:14:22,600 --> 01:14:25,920
Speaker 1: with him. There's the three D weapon, and let's look

1249
01:14:25,960 --> 01:14:31,800
Speaker 1: at Brian Thompson walking along early morning going to a

1250
01:14:31,960 --> 01:14:38,720
Speaker 1: work conference. He shot in the back right there. And

1251
01:14:38,800 --> 01:14:42,439
Speaker 1: I'm not going to play that when he actually gets shot,

1252
01:14:43,200 --> 01:14:48,560
Speaker 1: because someday, somehow his boys might look this up online

1253
01:14:49,240 --> 01:14:54,720
Speaker 1: and I don't want this to be stuck in their memory.

1254
01:14:56,160 --> 01:15:00,559
Speaker 1: Calli Brantley. Were any of me g Only's family members

1255
01:15:00,680 --> 01:15:03,439
Speaker 1: in court and were any of the victims' family members

1256
01:15:03,479 --> 01:15:04,439
Speaker 1: in court this week?

1257
01:15:06,640 --> 01:15:09,160
Speaker 12: Not that we know of Nancy, but a lot of

1258
01:15:09,520 --> 01:15:14,040
Speaker 12: Luigi's supporters And one thing, have you heard of pretty privilege?

1259
01:15:14,280 --> 01:15:17,760
Speaker 12: Because it absolutely feels like Luigi is benefiting from that

1260
01:15:17,880 --> 01:15:22,519
Speaker 12: by having hordes of fans, because he is a handsome man,

1261
01:15:22,720 --> 01:15:25,639
Speaker 12: that he is benefiting from pretty privilege? And I'm sure

1262
01:15:25,760 --> 01:15:29,640
Speaker 12: his defense team is happy that they have a relatively

1263
01:15:29,720 --> 01:15:31,760
Speaker 12: attractive man as a client.

1264
01:15:32,160 --> 01:15:35,599
Speaker 1: Kila, I don't find him attractive. Every time I look

1265
01:15:35,640 --> 01:15:38,320
Speaker 1: at him, I see a tail swishing in the back

1266
01:15:38,360 --> 01:15:42,360
Speaker 1: and two horns right here. That's what I see. What

1267
01:15:42,560 --> 01:15:46,439
Speaker 1: is happening in court this week is critical. If this

1268
01:15:46,920 --> 01:15:52,320
Speaker 1: evidence is suppressed, there may be no justice in this case.

1269
01:15:52,360 --> 01:15:56,800
Speaker 1: A man shut down on the sidewalk on video and

1270
01:15:56,960 --> 01:16:04,240
Speaker 1: no justice. We wait as justice unfolds. Nancy Christ signing off,

1271
01:16:04,760 --> 01:16:05,439
Speaker 1: goodbye friend.

1272
01:16:10,840 --> 01:16:11,280
Speaker 14: M hmm