1 00:00:07,120 --> 00:00:19,400 Speaker 1: Ah, beaut force. If it doesn't work, you're just not 2 00:00:19,720 --> 00:00:25,440 Speaker 1: using enough. You're listening to Software Radio Special Operations, military 3 00:00:25,520 --> 00:01:08,400 Speaker 1: news and straight talk with the guys and the community 4 00:01:10,680 --> 00:01:14,759 Speaker 1: Software dot Com on time on target. Ian Scotto here 5 00:01:15,200 --> 00:01:18,720 Speaker 1: at Ian Scotto on Twitter. That's I A N S 6 00:01:18,760 --> 00:01:21,959 Speaker 1: C O T t O. I know some of you 7 00:01:22,120 --> 00:01:24,600 Speaker 1: who may not have listened to recent episodes are like, 8 00:01:24,680 --> 00:01:28,680 Speaker 1: where's Jack Murphy. Jack is with Benny on a trip 9 00:01:29,280 --> 00:01:31,960 Speaker 1: and he's gonna be out for a while, so you're 10 00:01:32,600 --> 00:01:37,160 Speaker 1: you're stuck with me here hopefully, Uh you don't mind that, uh, 11 00:01:37,520 --> 00:01:41,160 Speaker 1: but you also may notice my vocal quality, uh, not 12 00:01:41,200 --> 00:01:44,440 Speaker 1: my actual vocals, but the audio quality not exactly up 13 00:01:44,480 --> 00:01:47,039 Speaker 1: to par with what you're used to. And that is 14 00:01:47,080 --> 00:01:51,800 Speaker 1: because the studio is currently being revamped and for the 15 00:01:51,800 --> 00:01:54,120 Speaker 1: first time in a long time, I'm recording this on 16 00:01:54,240 --> 00:01:57,440 Speaker 1: my little home set up. Uh, and I'm gonna record 17 00:01:57,480 --> 00:02:02,040 Speaker 1: the interview with Sam Fattus via Skype. But yes, since 18 00:02:02,080 --> 00:02:04,880 Speaker 1: it's being revamped, I refuse to not let you guys 19 00:02:04,920 --> 00:02:08,680 Speaker 1: have a show twice every week. So we're we're working 20 00:02:08,720 --> 00:02:11,920 Speaker 1: with what we have here and also bringing you and 21 00:02:12,040 --> 00:02:15,680 Speaker 1: just an awesome guest on here. So uh, do enjoy 22 00:02:15,760 --> 00:02:18,880 Speaker 1: and don't be um, you know, don't turn it off 23 00:02:19,000 --> 00:02:22,400 Speaker 1: due to the lack of audio quality, which, by the way, 24 00:02:22,400 --> 00:02:23,880 Speaker 1: I might as well bring it up because I know, 25 00:02:24,280 --> 00:02:27,400 Speaker 1: I know someone's gonna break my balls over this. UM. 26 00:02:27,440 --> 00:02:31,760 Speaker 1: The last show not quite up to actual audio quality 27 00:02:31,840 --> 00:02:35,040 Speaker 1: par even though we were in the studio itself. And 28 00:02:35,120 --> 00:02:38,839 Speaker 1: to defend myself, that's because of the fact that now 29 00:02:38,919 --> 00:02:43,000 Speaker 1: that I'm doing the YouTube videos, I'm finding a happy 30 00:02:43,080 --> 00:02:46,119 Speaker 1: medium between not having the mic and someone's face, which 31 00:02:46,280 --> 00:02:49,040 Speaker 1: usually is um, you know, so that you can see 32 00:02:49,040 --> 00:02:51,920 Speaker 1: their face on video, yet at the same time having 33 00:02:51,960 --> 00:02:55,320 Speaker 1: them close enough that they sound as loud as I do. 34 00:02:55,400 --> 00:02:57,960 Speaker 1: Since I tend to project and everything, and listening back 35 00:02:58,120 --> 00:03:01,359 Speaker 1: editing that show, I know that my vocals were significantly 36 00:03:01,400 --> 00:03:03,720 Speaker 1: louder than seawn. So all I have to say is 37 00:03:03,760 --> 00:03:05,760 Speaker 1: crank it up if you listen to that one, because 38 00:03:05,840 --> 00:03:09,959 Speaker 1: it was a great episode. Besides that, UM, the fact 39 00:03:10,000 --> 00:03:14,640 Speaker 1: that with Malaysian flight MH three seventy, there's so little 40 00:03:14,720 --> 00:03:19,919 Speaker 1: information out there that the instinct is to go conspiratorial, 41 00:03:20,000 --> 00:03:21,880 Speaker 1: I feel, and that's what a lot of people did. 42 00:03:21,919 --> 00:03:25,600 Speaker 1: A lot of people went conspiratorial, and I applaud Shawn 43 00:03:25,680 --> 00:03:29,639 Speaker 1: getting together with two experts and doing the opposite, saying no, 44 00:03:29,960 --> 00:03:33,720 Speaker 1: here's why these conspiracy theories don't hold up, based on 45 00:03:33,800 --> 00:03:36,839 Speaker 1: the science, based on the little information that we do have. 46 00:03:37,560 --> 00:03:40,640 Speaker 1: And uh, please read that article if you get a chance. 47 00:03:40,880 --> 00:03:44,240 Speaker 1: Um once again, the article is titled alright, goodnight, does 48 00:03:44,320 --> 00:03:46,960 Speaker 1: Malaysia want to know what happened to Flight MH three 49 00:03:47,040 --> 00:03:50,400 Speaker 1: seventy And listen to the podcast which was the last episode, 50 00:03:50,480 --> 00:03:54,600 Speaker 1: episode three seventy two, revisiting Malaysia Airlines Flight MH three 51 00:03:54,760 --> 00:03:58,800 Speaker 1: seventy With that before we get over to Sam Fattis 52 00:03:59,080 --> 00:04:03,080 Speaker 1: Um and by away. Sam is a retired CIA operations 53 00:04:03,120 --> 00:04:06,280 Speaker 1: officer who served in the Near East and South Asia. 54 00:04:07,160 --> 00:04:09,240 Speaker 1: I might as well get to an email here because 55 00:04:09,240 --> 00:04:11,040 Speaker 1: I haven't done emails in a while. So this was 56 00:04:11,080 --> 00:04:14,920 Speaker 1: sent to soft rep dot Radio at soft rep dot com. 57 00:04:15,200 --> 00:04:20,200 Speaker 1: Uh from Willie Lucker to the editors, writers and contributors 58 00:04:20,200 --> 00:04:24,000 Speaker 1: to Softwrep Radio. Hello again and congrats on another great episode. 59 00:04:24,400 --> 00:04:27,000 Speaker 1: It was in the it was in this episode that 60 00:04:27,040 --> 00:04:30,360 Speaker 1: you brought up the nomination of Judge Brent Kavanaugh into 61 00:04:30,400 --> 00:04:33,839 Speaker 1: this Supreme Court by President Trump and mentioned a few 62 00:04:33,880 --> 00:04:36,200 Speaker 1: things I was hoping you could clarify your thoughts on 63 00:04:36,600 --> 00:04:40,640 Speaker 1: you mentioned quote activist judges rather frequently, and I would 64 00:04:40,640 --> 00:04:44,440 Speaker 1: like to know which courts Roberts, Burger, Warren Marshall, et cetera, 65 00:04:44,520 --> 00:04:48,440 Speaker 1: when you consider to be activist versus strict constitutionalist. I 66 00:04:48,520 --> 00:04:51,360 Speaker 1: hear different people from different ends of the political spectrum 67 00:04:51,480 --> 00:04:55,440 Speaker 1: labeled different courts with different behavioral bents as one of 68 00:04:55,480 --> 00:04:58,080 Speaker 1: the other one or the other with next to no 69 00:04:58,200 --> 00:05:02,880 Speaker 1: consistency in our act demia. A funny observation my constitutional 70 00:05:03,000 --> 00:05:05,280 Speaker 1: law professor pointed out about the court is that it's 71 00:05:05,360 --> 00:05:09,040 Speaker 1: primary tool of checking the other branches. Judicial review is 72 00:05:09,160 --> 00:05:11,800 Speaker 1: less an explicit tool of the court and more a 73 00:05:11,880 --> 00:05:15,320 Speaker 1: self proclaimed power of the court get given to itself 74 00:05:15,360 --> 00:05:19,159 Speaker 1: in Marbury versus Madison, Oh three. In other words, one 75 00:05:19,200 --> 00:05:22,040 Speaker 1: of the key checks of our judicial system is a 76 00:05:22,160 --> 00:05:25,880 Speaker 1: less constitutional mandate. As a legal work, figured copying a 77 00:05:25,920 --> 00:05:29,040 Speaker 1: pick of my con law notes would be a little gaudius. 78 00:05:29,080 --> 00:05:31,400 Speaker 1: So here's just a quick link to the dot gov 79 00:05:31,560 --> 00:05:35,520 Speaker 1: site for federal courts to detailing the quirk of judicial review. 80 00:05:35,920 --> 00:05:38,000 Speaker 1: What she links to at U S Courts dot gov. 81 00:05:38,320 --> 00:05:40,480 Speaker 1: I would also like to know about your thoughts regarding 82 00:05:40,560 --> 00:05:44,480 Speaker 1: Judge Kavanaugh's role in politics since the ninety nineties Clinton 83 00:05:44,520 --> 00:05:48,560 Speaker 1: Star Report, Bush's White House Staff secretary, et cetera. Rather 84 00:05:48,600 --> 00:05:51,880 Speaker 1: than discuss hopes or fears considering abortion, I wanted to 85 00:05:51,920 --> 00:05:54,120 Speaker 1: know if you had any thoughts about his m N 86 00:05:54,240 --> 00:05:56,720 Speaker 1: Law review article in which he made a number of 87 00:05:56,720 --> 00:06:01,800 Speaker 1: propositions legally requiring prompt Senate votes on residential nominees, amending 88 00:06:01,839 --> 00:06:06,640 Speaker 1: presidential terms, giving the president greater higher fire ability of 89 00:06:06,760 --> 00:06:11,120 Speaker 1: cabinet secretaries, etcetera. The most controversial position held in this 90 00:06:11,200 --> 00:06:14,839 Speaker 1: law review um see the PDF attachment was the judge's 91 00:06:14,839 --> 00:06:18,160 Speaker 1: belief that presidents should potentially be exempt from civil and 92 00:06:18,160 --> 00:06:21,840 Speaker 1: criminal prosecutions during their term as president, if possible. I 93 00:06:21,839 --> 00:06:23,880 Speaker 1: would love to hear your thoughts and this should you 94 00:06:23,920 --> 00:06:26,440 Speaker 1: have time to respond. Looking forward to hearing more from 95 00:06:26,520 --> 00:06:30,760 Speaker 1: y'all at the next Software Radio podcast. Please take care respectfully. 96 00:06:30,960 --> 00:06:34,240 Speaker 1: Willie Lucker, UM, I'm gonna do something that I feel 97 00:06:34,279 --> 00:06:36,520 Speaker 1: like a lot of media personality has don't too often 98 00:06:36,640 --> 00:06:39,560 Speaker 1: enough and say that I'll speak on my hap A 99 00:06:39,640 --> 00:06:42,080 Speaker 1: Jack on this one as well. I feel like neither 100 00:06:42,160 --> 00:06:45,800 Speaker 1: of us are experts on this particular subject, and I 101 00:06:45,880 --> 00:06:49,520 Speaker 1: am you know, I know very little about Brent Cavanaugh's 102 00:06:49,760 --> 00:06:52,480 Speaker 1: um background on law, you seem to know a lot 103 00:06:52,520 --> 00:06:55,520 Speaker 1: more than I do, So I'm not even gonna respond 104 00:06:55,560 --> 00:06:59,680 Speaker 1: to all that. Um. When I do talk about activist judges, 105 00:06:59,720 --> 00:07:02,000 Speaker 1: I guess in that episode, I'm being a little vague. 106 00:07:02,040 --> 00:07:06,000 Speaker 1: They're just talking about people who, um don't believe in 107 00:07:06,080 --> 00:07:10,680 Speaker 1: sticking to a strict constitutional principle. Be it. You know, 108 00:07:10,960 --> 00:07:14,480 Speaker 1: like I've heard Ruth Bader Ginsburg talk about looking at 109 00:07:15,280 --> 00:07:21,360 Speaker 1: foreign law rather than just the con the U. S. Constitution, um, 110 00:07:21,480 --> 00:07:24,120 Speaker 1: or those who just outright don't believe in the Second Amendment. 111 00:07:24,160 --> 00:07:28,120 Speaker 1: You know, that is being an activist judge. But more 112 00:07:28,160 --> 00:07:31,200 Speaker 1: particular than that, you seem to have a much greater 113 00:07:31,240 --> 00:07:34,520 Speaker 1: background than myself or Jack on this. But I do 114 00:07:34,600 --> 00:07:37,800 Speaker 1: appreciate the email. And that's why when we talk about 115 00:07:37,800 --> 00:07:40,000 Speaker 1: this stuff like a Supreme Court justice, I think we 116 00:07:40,080 --> 00:07:44,200 Speaker 1: go relatively short and skim over it. Because Jack is 117 00:07:44,240 --> 00:07:48,240 Speaker 1: definitely an expert on a lot of military affairs. I 118 00:07:48,280 --> 00:07:51,920 Speaker 1: don't know what I'm necessarily an expert in, but I 119 00:07:51,960 --> 00:07:54,920 Speaker 1: do have a degree in radio and a political science 120 00:07:54,920 --> 00:07:56,640 Speaker 1: of mine or so I do know some things here 121 00:07:56,680 --> 00:08:00,640 Speaker 1: and there. I know some economics here and there. Uh Um, 122 00:08:00,680 --> 00:08:04,400 Speaker 1: But yeah, my primary focus is radio matters. I can 123 00:08:04,440 --> 00:08:08,880 Speaker 1: speak on that. I guess um with that before we 124 00:08:09,000 --> 00:08:12,600 Speaker 1: get over to Sam Fattus. As always, I want to 125 00:08:12,680 --> 00:08:15,480 Speaker 1: encourage you guys to become a member of our clubs, 126 00:08:16,280 --> 00:08:20,200 Speaker 1: Create Club, Create Club dot Us. Every month it's gear 127 00:08:20,280 --> 00:08:24,440 Speaker 1: handpicked by special operations veterans. UM. That's if you're doing 128 00:08:24,440 --> 00:08:27,080 Speaker 1: the standard Create, but we also have the premium Create 129 00:08:27,560 --> 00:08:31,320 Speaker 1: which is absolutely awesome, the operator Create. UM. Just check 130 00:08:31,400 --> 00:08:34,480 Speaker 1: them all out. It's Create Club dot Us. I'm looking 131 00:08:34,480 --> 00:08:37,719 Speaker 1: forward to that watch collaboration that we're doing with NFW 132 00:08:37,720 --> 00:08:42,120 Speaker 1: Watches that's coming in the near future. UM. And then 133 00:08:42,280 --> 00:08:45,760 Speaker 1: Kuna Kuna dot Dog. UM. If you have a dog 134 00:08:46,320 --> 00:08:50,360 Speaker 1: and you're interested in a box that's specifically for your 135 00:08:50,400 --> 00:08:54,080 Speaker 1: dog based on its size and its age, UH, Kuna 136 00:08:54,400 --> 00:08:58,079 Speaker 1: is the box for you and UM we have different 137 00:08:58,200 --> 00:09:00,160 Speaker 1: experts in the field picking out a box that every 138 00:09:00,240 --> 00:09:03,000 Speaker 1: month that that Kuna is working with and that we're 139 00:09:03,040 --> 00:09:06,920 Speaker 1: partnered with Kuna dot Dog. And also check out the 140 00:09:06,960 --> 00:09:11,320 Speaker 1: spec Ops channel and that spec Ops channel dot com. UH. 141 00:09:11,360 --> 00:09:13,520 Speaker 1: And the reason I want to focus on that one 142 00:09:13,600 --> 00:09:17,080 Speaker 1: for this episode is that we're rolling out that inside 143 00:09:17,080 --> 00:09:20,840 Speaker 1: the Team Room Intelligence edition. UH. The Odyssean is on that, 144 00:09:21,520 --> 00:09:24,960 Speaker 1: James Powell, and this next guest, Sam Fattus. So if 145 00:09:25,040 --> 00:09:26,920 Speaker 1: you want to watch that. I know people were like, 146 00:09:27,160 --> 00:09:29,600 Speaker 1: I can't find these on YouTube anymore. You know, we 147 00:09:29,679 --> 00:09:32,199 Speaker 1: are a company. We're trying to pull a profit here 148 00:09:32,240 --> 00:09:34,840 Speaker 1: like any other company and put out great content with that. 149 00:09:34,960 --> 00:09:36,920 Speaker 1: So become a member of the spec Ops channel. It's 150 00:09:36,960 --> 00:09:39,920 Speaker 1: completely worth it. It's on sale right now less than 151 00:09:39,960 --> 00:09:43,800 Speaker 1: five dollars a month spec ops channel dot com. Uh, 152 00:09:43,840 --> 00:09:46,680 Speaker 1: and let's get over to for the first time on 153 00:09:46,800 --> 00:09:53,080 Speaker 1: soft rep Radio. Sam Fattis so joining us for the 154 00:09:53,120 --> 00:09:56,200 Speaker 1: first time on softwarep Radio. Although Sam is written for 155 00:09:56,240 --> 00:10:00,600 Speaker 1: the site is Sam Fattus, retired CIA operations officer who 156 00:10:00,679 --> 00:10:03,880 Speaker 1: served in the Near East and South Asia. You'd visit 157 00:10:03,920 --> 00:10:08,360 Speaker 1: Sam Fattis dot com at real Sam Fattus on Twitter. UM, 158 00:10:08,400 --> 00:10:10,920 Speaker 1: and Sam just did the Inside the Team Room Intelligence 159 00:10:11,040 --> 00:10:13,360 Speaker 1: edition with us. That's on the spec ops channel. We're 160 00:10:13,360 --> 00:10:16,280 Speaker 1: slowly rolling those out. UM. We'll get into all that, 161 00:10:16,360 --> 00:10:19,880 Speaker 1: but first and foremost, thanks for doing this. I appreciate it, 162 00:10:20,040 --> 00:10:23,640 Speaker 1: great to be here. Thanks for having me on absolutely so. UM. 163 00:10:23,679 --> 00:10:25,600 Speaker 1: I think the first thing I'd like to get into 164 00:10:25,600 --> 00:10:29,000 Speaker 1: you with you is just your actual background in the CIA. 165 00:10:29,000 --> 00:10:31,360 Speaker 1: I mean, we have several guys on the site who 166 00:10:31,480 --> 00:10:34,240 Speaker 1: work in the CIA, but I think that your background 167 00:10:34,320 --> 00:10:37,320 Speaker 1: is particularly interesting and I think people would just like 168 00:10:37,400 --> 00:10:41,720 Speaker 1: to hear from your perspective. Right. So, I was an 169 00:10:41,760 --> 00:10:45,040 Speaker 1: ops officer otherwise known as a case officer, which is, 170 00:10:45,120 --> 00:10:49,840 Speaker 1: you know what what average Americans call a CIA agent, 171 00:10:50,000 --> 00:10:52,319 Speaker 1: but that's not c I a speak for the job. 172 00:10:53,200 --> 00:11:00,160 Speaker 1: So I worked undercover running operations overseas almost all my career, 173 00:11:00,320 --> 00:11:04,280 Speaker 1: and really all in the Middle East and South Asia 174 00:11:04,280 --> 00:11:09,800 Speaker 1: and other words of Pakistan, India, places like that got 175 00:11:09,920 --> 00:11:12,719 Speaker 1: you and people might want to know time frame and 176 00:11:13,040 --> 00:11:15,240 Speaker 1: that type of stuff involved, you know, what was going 177 00:11:15,280 --> 00:11:18,080 Speaker 1: on at that time, right. So I came on with 178 00:11:18,120 --> 00:11:21,920 Speaker 1: the agency in the very late eighties, so um, and 179 00:11:21,960 --> 00:11:28,479 Speaker 1: then retired in uh late two thousand and eight, so um. 180 00:11:28,520 --> 00:11:30,040 Speaker 1: You know, I came on kind of at the end 181 00:11:30,040 --> 00:11:33,880 Speaker 1: of the Cold War, and I really worked. I worked 182 00:11:34,120 --> 00:11:39,959 Speaker 1: terrorism really from from day one, starting with the days 183 00:11:39,960 --> 00:11:42,800 Speaker 1: of pan M one oh three and working a lot 184 00:11:42,800 --> 00:11:48,280 Speaker 1: of HESBLAS stuff, but over the years work probably every 185 00:11:48,400 --> 00:11:52,360 Speaker 1: terrorist group with which we were engaged. Also a lot 186 00:11:52,400 --> 00:11:58,240 Speaker 1: of weapons of mass destruction work, nuclear, chemical, biological stuff. 187 00:11:58,840 --> 00:12:02,800 Speaker 1: My last job before I retired was actually as head 188 00:12:02,800 --> 00:12:08,240 Speaker 1: of CIA's unit that hunts terrorist w m D worldwide. 189 00:12:08,520 --> 00:12:12,760 Speaker 1: That was that was what I was doing when I retired. Wow, 190 00:12:12,800 --> 00:12:16,000 Speaker 1: I mean all of that is is particularly interesting. You 191 00:12:16,040 --> 00:12:22,079 Speaker 1: know what what stands out to you most during that time? Um? 192 00:12:22,120 --> 00:12:24,280 Speaker 1: You know, I I, as I say, I started, I 193 00:12:24,320 --> 00:12:31,280 Speaker 1: started working terrorism from from day one. And I think 194 00:12:32,240 --> 00:12:36,240 Speaker 1: what I learned very early on in my career was 195 00:12:36,360 --> 00:12:39,680 Speaker 1: I came out of training and I had done done 196 00:12:39,800 --> 00:12:42,640 Speaker 1: very well in training, never really had any issues. But 197 00:12:42,679 --> 00:12:45,600 Speaker 1: I got in the street and started recruiting terrorists sources 198 00:12:46,600 --> 00:12:51,200 Speaker 1: and working events against the people that were killing our folks. 199 00:12:51,280 --> 00:12:53,679 Speaker 1: And that was kind of like going to grad school 200 00:12:54,760 --> 00:12:59,160 Speaker 1: in uh in trade craft and intelligence operations. I probably 201 00:12:59,320 --> 00:13:04,320 Speaker 1: learned more from those folks over the years than I 202 00:13:04,400 --> 00:13:09,040 Speaker 1: ever learned in our own training courses. Yeah, I would think. So. 203 00:13:09,120 --> 00:13:11,760 Speaker 1: I mean, I think you can't really get the full 204 00:13:11,800 --> 00:13:17,080 Speaker 1: perspective until you're actually on the ground. Yeah, And I 205 00:13:17,200 --> 00:13:21,800 Speaker 1: just mean that also, you know, some of these some 206 00:13:21,920 --> 00:13:26,000 Speaker 1: of these folks against whom we are engaged and have 207 00:13:26,160 --> 00:13:33,120 Speaker 1: been engaged, are extremely extremely good at what they do. Um. 208 00:13:33,280 --> 00:13:35,679 Speaker 1: I you know, when I came on we were already 209 00:13:35,679 --> 00:13:41,760 Speaker 1: working Islamic Islamist terrorist groups, but we were also still 210 00:13:41,800 --> 00:13:46,120 Speaker 1: heavily engaged with some of the Marxist Leninist groups. You know, 211 00:13:46,240 --> 00:13:49,760 Speaker 1: going back to the Red Army, Red Army Faction, the 212 00:13:49,800 --> 00:13:57,840 Speaker 1: Red Brigade, seventeen November, these guys and their tradecraft incredibly 213 00:13:57,960 --> 00:14:03,559 Speaker 1: disciplined and incredibly mati aculous, And if you're going to 214 00:14:03,679 --> 00:14:07,280 Speaker 1: work against them, you have to get every bit is 215 00:14:07,360 --> 00:14:10,160 Speaker 1: disciplined and every bit is meticulous and what you do 216 00:14:10,320 --> 00:14:14,120 Speaker 1: or you're gonna end up dead pretty fast. Being that 217 00:14:14,160 --> 00:14:16,559 Speaker 1: you were in the CIA for such a long time, 218 00:14:17,000 --> 00:14:20,040 Speaker 1: how have you seen like the progression of terrorist groups 219 00:14:20,040 --> 00:14:23,680 Speaker 1: from when you first became a member of the CIA 220 00:14:23,840 --> 00:14:29,080 Speaker 1: to now well when we started, you know, going back 221 00:14:29,080 --> 00:14:31,120 Speaker 1: to what I was just saying, if you're talking about 222 00:14:31,240 --> 00:14:35,920 Speaker 1: groups like seventeen November and Athens that killed any number 223 00:14:35,960 --> 00:14:41,200 Speaker 1: of killed a significant number of senior American officials, loader 224 00:14:41,240 --> 00:14:44,760 Speaker 1: mind Off later known as Red Army Faction in Germany, 225 00:14:44,960 --> 00:14:48,600 Speaker 1: these guys are very very lethal, but also very selective. 226 00:14:49,760 --> 00:14:52,800 Speaker 1: They would you know, they penetrate the best security in 227 00:14:52,840 --> 00:14:56,160 Speaker 1: the world and take out very very high priority targets, 228 00:14:56,720 --> 00:15:01,560 Speaker 1: but they were also typically very careful not to kill indiscriminately, 229 00:15:02,440 --> 00:15:06,520 Speaker 1: not necessarily because they had any great degree of conscience, 230 00:15:06,560 --> 00:15:12,640 Speaker 1: but because they were very worried about public backlash. And 231 00:15:12,880 --> 00:15:16,840 Speaker 1: any time that they staged an attack and unintentionally or 232 00:15:17,120 --> 00:15:23,000 Speaker 1: inadvertently killed or wounded somebody who was you know, just collateral, 233 00:15:23,200 --> 00:15:28,440 Speaker 1: they would often issue public proclamations explaining why it happened 234 00:15:28,440 --> 00:15:34,960 Speaker 1: and apologize. Obviously, that world has gone away, you know. 235 00:15:35,040 --> 00:15:40,560 Speaker 1: Now it's been replaced by folks who don't think for 236 00:15:40,640 --> 00:15:43,800 Speaker 1: a second about blowing up a marketplace or walking a 237 00:15:43,880 --> 00:15:48,200 Speaker 1: suicide bomber into a wedding, or detonating a device in 238 00:15:48,240 --> 00:15:54,040 Speaker 1: the middle of a mosque during worship. Um. So that's 239 00:15:55,680 --> 00:16:00,440 Speaker 1: that's a that is obviously a radical change. Yeah, I mean, 240 00:16:00,440 --> 00:16:02,680 Speaker 1: it sounds like and I feel like we know this, 241 00:16:02,800 --> 00:16:06,960 Speaker 1: but there's just such a departure between Islamic terrorists groups 242 00:16:07,000 --> 00:16:13,560 Speaker 1: and other tirorists. Yeah. The the whole move to mass 243 00:16:13,720 --> 00:16:20,160 Speaker 1: casualty events really transformed things, and that that has been 244 00:16:21,120 --> 00:16:24,760 Speaker 1: a hallmark of Islamic terrorism, not not that they're I 245 00:16:24,800 --> 00:16:28,760 Speaker 1: mean an interesting thing is that even amongst members of 246 00:16:28,760 --> 00:16:32,480 Speaker 1: al Qaida, at various points there has been debate on 247 00:16:32,560 --> 00:16:38,560 Speaker 1: the topic of the justification for mass casualty events, you know, 248 00:16:38,640 --> 00:16:42,200 Speaker 1: and back and forth as to how to justify this 249 00:16:42,280 --> 00:16:46,400 Speaker 1: in according with in accordance with the Kuran. But nonetheless, 250 00:16:46,520 --> 00:16:49,920 Speaker 1: you know, debate aside. The reality is the move was 251 00:16:50,040 --> 00:16:54,840 Speaker 1: made and and really as bad as it has been 252 00:16:55,480 --> 00:16:59,120 Speaker 1: when you think about things like nine eleven, the aspirations 253 00:16:59,160 --> 00:17:02,520 Speaker 1: on the part of Islamic terrorist groups are even greater. 254 00:17:02,680 --> 00:17:07,280 Speaker 1: I mean, these guys still very much want to move 255 00:17:07,440 --> 00:17:16,240 Speaker 1: into the realm of true biological weapons attacks, acquiring nuclear capability. 256 00:17:16,320 --> 00:17:20,160 Speaker 1: You know, they would love to stage attacks that would 257 00:17:20,240 --> 00:17:23,359 Speaker 1: dwarf nine eleven in terms of deaf Chimp in terms 258 00:17:23,359 --> 00:17:26,879 Speaker 1: of body Kim. Yeah. I've We've actually had a guest 259 00:17:26,960 --> 00:17:29,960 Speaker 1: on UM by the name of Dan Gordon, who you know, 260 00:17:30,160 --> 00:17:33,320 Speaker 1: very different background from you. He's actually a former Israeli 261 00:17:33,359 --> 00:17:35,800 Speaker 1: sniper in the I d F. But he wrote a 262 00:17:35,840 --> 00:17:39,800 Speaker 1: fiction book called UM Day of the Dead. Book one 263 00:17:39,880 --> 00:17:43,240 Speaker 1: was Gaza Book to America. But he's gone in detail 264 00:17:43,280 --> 00:17:46,760 Speaker 1: about how he believes at the border, with the tunnels 265 00:17:46,760 --> 00:17:48,680 Speaker 1: that are being built, you're going to see the next 266 00:17:48,760 --> 00:17:51,920 Speaker 1: terrorist attack launched that way into a place like San Diego. 267 00:17:51,960 --> 00:17:54,760 Speaker 1: I don't know, if you have something like that possibly 268 00:17:54,800 --> 00:17:57,280 Speaker 1: in mind or some other way that something would be 269 00:17:57,320 --> 00:18:00,320 Speaker 1: launched that would you know, make nine eleven look dwarf, 270 00:18:02,240 --> 00:18:05,040 Speaker 1: you know, I think the reality is that there are 271 00:18:05,080 --> 00:18:08,120 Speaker 1: almost endless ways which is to be done. I wrote 272 00:18:08,119 --> 00:18:12,680 Speaker 1: it for several years ago myself for Transdiction, called KAFA, 273 00:18:12,800 --> 00:18:16,040 Speaker 1: which is walking through a biological weapons attack in the 274 00:18:16,119 --> 00:18:19,600 Speaker 1: United States. I mean, to begin with, the United States 275 00:18:19,760 --> 00:18:25,480 Speaker 1: is built now with bio labs, most of which are commercial, 276 00:18:26,400 --> 00:18:30,680 Speaker 1: and many of which have on hand inside the United 277 00:18:30,720 --> 00:18:38,600 Speaker 1: States pathogens that could cause, you know, epidemics and kill thousands, 278 00:18:38,640 --> 00:18:41,639 Speaker 1: tens of thousands of people. So before we get to 279 00:18:41,680 --> 00:18:43,880 Speaker 1: the part where you've got to smuggle something in from 280 00:18:43,920 --> 00:18:48,359 Speaker 1: outside the country, which is definitely possible, it's also entirely 281 00:18:48,400 --> 00:18:52,280 Speaker 1: possible to just steal something that's already here. And if 282 00:18:52,280 --> 00:18:56,440 Speaker 1: you're talking about bacteria, you know, for instance, what causes 283 00:18:56,520 --> 00:19:00,440 Speaker 1: the plague, I mean you can't you you can keep 284 00:19:00,440 --> 00:19:04,520 Speaker 1: track of vials maybe if you're doing your homework in 285 00:19:04,560 --> 00:19:07,720 Speaker 1: a bio lab, although frankly typically they don't do a 286 00:19:07,800 --> 00:19:10,240 Speaker 1: very good job of it, but you can't keep track 287 00:19:10,280 --> 00:19:15,680 Speaker 1: of individual bacteria. And this stuff grows. So the capacity 288 00:19:15,720 --> 00:19:20,080 Speaker 1: to steal a small quantity out of a petri dish 289 00:19:20,160 --> 00:19:22,880 Speaker 1: or out of a vial and then carry it out 290 00:19:22,920 --> 00:19:26,840 Speaker 1: on you and grow it into a larger quantity. That's 291 00:19:27,440 --> 00:19:30,720 Speaker 1: that that exists all over the country, and it's really 292 00:19:30,760 --> 00:19:33,520 Speaker 1: really difficult to stop. How How are you going to 293 00:19:33,640 --> 00:19:37,240 Speaker 1: search every guy walking out of every commercial lab every 294 00:19:37,320 --> 00:19:41,320 Speaker 1: day and make sure he's not carrying a small amount 295 00:19:41,520 --> 00:19:45,920 Speaker 1: of the plague bacteria? Yeah, And I often feel like, 296 00:19:46,000 --> 00:19:49,080 Speaker 1: you know, you live relatively close to New York City 297 00:19:49,080 --> 00:19:51,520 Speaker 1: and you see the you know, billions of dollars that 298 00:19:51,600 --> 00:19:54,880 Speaker 1: go into keeping building secure of course keeping airports secure 299 00:19:54,920 --> 00:19:58,479 Speaker 1: now in a post nine eleven world, and I often 300 00:19:58,800 --> 00:20:02,040 Speaker 1: wonder how effective it really will be im thwarting another 301 00:20:02,240 --> 00:20:05,960 Speaker 1: parish attack. Yeah. I don't think it's very effective at all. 302 00:20:06,000 --> 00:20:08,920 Speaker 1: I mean, the real reality is, with all all due 303 00:20:08,960 --> 00:20:12,439 Speaker 1: respect to everybody that's that's trying to secure these places, 304 00:20:12,440 --> 00:20:15,639 Speaker 1: because they're all trying to do the right thing. Um, 305 00:20:15,640 --> 00:20:18,160 Speaker 1: going back to what I was talking about before about 306 00:20:18,160 --> 00:20:21,760 Speaker 1: sort of getting that graduate degree in trade craft from 307 00:20:21,760 --> 00:20:24,720 Speaker 1: working with and against bad guys. And when I say with, 308 00:20:24,920 --> 00:20:29,959 Speaker 1: I mean recruiting guys inside parish organizations to turn against 309 00:20:29,960 --> 00:20:34,280 Speaker 1: their own. You know, when you do that learn how 310 00:20:34,280 --> 00:20:36,320 Speaker 1: they think, and you learn how they operate, and you 311 00:20:36,440 --> 00:20:40,960 Speaker 1: learn therefore how to counter them. Unfortunately, in my opinion, 312 00:20:41,000 --> 00:20:45,119 Speaker 1: the vast majority of people we have involved in homeland 313 00:20:45,160 --> 00:20:51,120 Speaker 1: security don't have any such knowledge. They don't they don't 314 00:20:51,160 --> 00:20:55,200 Speaker 1: think at all like the enemy thinks. So if they're 315 00:20:55,240 --> 00:21:00,080 Speaker 1: defending against anything, they're really defending typically against how you 316 00:21:00,119 --> 00:21:06,440 Speaker 1: would attack a tart is that's interesting. It's bad guys 317 00:21:06,480 --> 00:21:09,040 Speaker 1: who don't care if they live through the attack or not, 318 00:21:10,640 --> 00:21:14,560 Speaker 1: who who don't have the resources, but are incredibly clever 319 00:21:15,359 --> 00:21:19,159 Speaker 1: and resourceful and absolutely dedicated to the cause. So a 320 00:21:19,160 --> 00:21:23,640 Speaker 1: lot of times what you see in the way of defenses, 321 00:21:23,720 --> 00:21:30,760 Speaker 1: in my opinion, is irrelevant. Case in point, cameras, right, Um, 322 00:21:31,119 --> 00:21:33,680 Speaker 1: camera is an interesting thing, and I you know, if 323 00:21:33,680 --> 00:21:37,680 Speaker 1: you're running defense saying passenger rail, you got to guard 324 00:21:37,720 --> 00:21:40,720 Speaker 1: against a lot of things, including just teenage kids spray 325 00:21:40,760 --> 00:21:44,359 Speaker 1: painting graffiti on your stuff. Right, So having cameras, I 326 00:21:44,440 --> 00:21:47,119 Speaker 1: understand why you have that. To a guy wearing a 327 00:21:47,200 --> 00:21:51,560 Speaker 1: suicide vest, a camera is irrelevant. The fact that you 328 00:21:51,640 --> 00:21:54,439 Speaker 1: took his picture before he blew himself up did not 329 00:21:54,680 --> 00:21:58,560 Speaker 1: dissuade him, or that you can identify who he was 330 00:21:58,680 --> 00:22:03,439 Speaker 1: after he's dead. You know, that's irrelevant. So, yeah, we've 331 00:22:03,440 --> 00:22:05,440 Speaker 1: got a lot of stuff that we do that doesn't 332 00:22:05,520 --> 00:22:07,960 Speaker 1: really make a difference. You know. It's one that stands 333 00:22:08,000 --> 00:22:10,920 Speaker 1: out to me. Uh, you know, just recently at an airport, 334 00:22:11,080 --> 00:22:14,959 Speaker 1: visiting Pittsburgh, and it's like this this thing that we 335 00:22:15,000 --> 00:22:19,040 Speaker 1: still do. I guess it's probably about fifteen years after 336 00:22:19,080 --> 00:22:22,120 Speaker 1: the fact. Now we all take off our shoes when 337 00:22:22,160 --> 00:22:25,240 Speaker 1: we board an airplane due to one man who had 338 00:22:25,280 --> 00:22:29,560 Speaker 1: this like pathetic failed attempts at terrorism. And I don't 339 00:22:29,560 --> 00:22:31,520 Speaker 1: think any terrorists is going to use their shoe at 340 00:22:31,560 --> 00:22:35,439 Speaker 1: this point, right, So an awful lot of what we 341 00:22:35,560 --> 00:22:39,480 Speaker 1: do consists of defending against the tax that have already occurred. 342 00:22:40,640 --> 00:22:44,639 Speaker 1: The number one conclusion in the nine eleven Commission was 343 00:22:44,800 --> 00:22:48,520 Speaker 1: that nine eleven represents a failure of imagination, meaning a 344 00:22:48,600 --> 00:22:53,639 Speaker 1: failure of imagination on our part. We failed to imagine 345 00:22:53,680 --> 00:22:57,760 Speaker 1: this and and so now we have in placed all 346 00:22:57,800 --> 00:23:01,280 Speaker 1: of these measures to prevent an or nine eleven. But 347 00:23:01,359 --> 00:23:04,520 Speaker 1: as you just pointed out, you know in reference to 348 00:23:04,600 --> 00:23:09,400 Speaker 1: shoe bombing, Um, that's that's great, But now you're defending 349 00:23:09,400 --> 00:23:12,960 Speaker 1: against an attack that already occurred. What you're not doing 350 00:23:13,240 --> 00:23:15,919 Speaker 1: is conceiving of what the next attack is going to 351 00:23:15,960 --> 00:23:19,359 Speaker 1: be and getting ahead of the curve. What was it 352 00:23:19,480 --> 00:23:22,359 Speaker 1: frustrating working at the agency at that time because it 353 00:23:22,440 --> 00:23:26,159 Speaker 1: sounds like you're someone who's a forward thinker who wants to, 354 00:23:26,640 --> 00:23:29,639 Speaker 1: you know, map out ideas that haven't been used used 355 00:23:29,680 --> 00:23:32,680 Speaker 1: against us yet, And that may not be the way 356 00:23:32,680 --> 00:23:36,840 Speaker 1: the agency was operating. It wasn't the way the agency 357 00:23:36,920 --> 00:23:39,560 Speaker 1: was operating. But I mean it also, you know, to 358 00:23:39,640 --> 00:23:43,240 Speaker 1: be fair, wasn't the way Washington in general was operating 359 00:23:44,320 --> 00:23:49,600 Speaker 1: those of us that were working counter terrorism pre nine eleven. Uh, 360 00:23:50,000 --> 00:23:53,320 Speaker 1: We're well aware of the growth of al Qaida, growth 361 00:23:53,320 --> 00:23:57,480 Speaker 1: of Islamic extremism and sounding those alarm deubles from a 362 00:23:57,720 --> 00:24:04,639 Speaker 1: long long time, and operation after operation that was conceived 363 00:24:05,440 --> 00:24:08,720 Speaker 1: to kill or capture Bin Laden or other things of 364 00:24:08,760 --> 00:24:12,480 Speaker 1: that nature was you know, we're they were all shut down, 365 00:24:12,560 --> 00:24:16,479 Speaker 1: turned off. You couldn't get approval to do anything like 366 00:24:16,560 --> 00:24:21,439 Speaker 1: that pre nine eleven. Um that I know any number 367 00:24:21,480 --> 00:24:25,080 Speaker 1: of colleagues of mine who put together operations designed to 368 00:24:25,119 --> 00:24:29,400 Speaker 1: go out and neutralize this threat before whatever happened, and 369 00:24:29,440 --> 00:24:33,080 Speaker 1: as I say, they were all shut down. Yeah, that's 370 00:24:33,119 --> 00:24:36,439 Speaker 1: it's sad when you hear that, UM, moving on to 371 00:24:36,760 --> 00:24:38,879 Speaker 1: something happening now, and that I would say is in 372 00:24:38,920 --> 00:24:43,119 Speaker 1: your expertise being someone who's worked in Asia, UM, what's 373 00:24:43,160 --> 00:24:46,199 Speaker 1: going on with North Korea and the meeting that was 374 00:24:46,320 --> 00:24:51,240 Speaker 1: relatively recent in Singapore between President Trump and Kim Jong Hoon. UM. 375 00:24:51,320 --> 00:24:54,280 Speaker 1: We actually had Jack Divine on the podcast not too 376 00:24:54,280 --> 00:24:58,040 Speaker 1: long ago after that occurred, and he was saying, because 377 00:24:58,080 --> 00:25:00,480 Speaker 1: of the fact that there's guys in the Trumpet illustration 378 00:25:00,520 --> 00:25:04,280 Speaker 1: who are pretty hawkish on North Korea, he's he's relatively 379 00:25:04,320 --> 00:25:07,240 Speaker 1: optimistic about what's going to happen from that meeting, And 380 00:25:07,359 --> 00:25:11,199 Speaker 1: I'd like to hear your perspective. Yeah, I would echo that. 381 00:25:11,320 --> 00:25:14,960 Speaker 1: I would characterize, you know, my attitude as cautiously optimistic. 382 00:25:16,160 --> 00:25:18,320 Speaker 1: Do you have to keep the pressure on? Yes? Do 383 00:25:18,359 --> 00:25:21,919 Speaker 1: you have to be aware of the possibility that this 384 00:25:22,000 --> 00:25:26,320 Speaker 1: thing will go off the rails? Obviously we're not tools. 385 00:25:26,359 --> 00:25:31,159 Speaker 1: So far, so good. You know, they're they are actually 386 00:25:31,280 --> 00:25:38,320 Speaker 1: now dismantling they the North Koreans dismantling the test facility 387 00:25:38,359 --> 00:25:43,600 Speaker 1: they have used for testing UM their intermediate range ballistic 388 00:25:43,680 --> 00:25:46,840 Speaker 1: missiles and as their whole program to try to develop 389 00:25:46,880 --> 00:25:51,320 Speaker 1: true I C b ms. That's a really good sign. Again, 390 00:25:51,480 --> 00:25:55,479 Speaker 1: we're let's we're not naive. We don't assume from that 391 00:25:55,480 --> 00:25:58,600 Speaker 1: that we're out of the woods. But what we're seeing 392 00:25:58,720 --> 00:26:02,960 Speaker 1: right now is is pretty good. I think two things 393 00:26:03,040 --> 00:26:07,280 Speaker 1: that the Trump administration did were critical. One, Uh, they 394 00:26:07,320 --> 00:26:11,680 Speaker 1: convinced the North Koreans that they might actually attack them. 395 00:26:11,720 --> 00:26:16,400 Speaker 1: The North Koreans actually believed that Donald Trump might obliterate them. 396 00:26:16,480 --> 00:26:19,080 Speaker 1: That's a good that's a good basis on which to 397 00:26:19,160 --> 00:26:22,880 Speaker 1: start the conversation. And second, you know, Donald Trump has 398 00:26:22,920 --> 00:26:28,600 Speaker 1: applied some very serious economic pressure to the North Koreans 399 00:26:28,680 --> 00:26:33,240 Speaker 1: and also to their Chinese patrons. He's made it clear 400 00:26:33,280 --> 00:26:35,760 Speaker 1: to the Chinese that they're going to pay an economic 401 00:26:35,840 --> 00:26:40,160 Speaker 1: cost for their support of the North Koreans, and he's 402 00:26:40,240 --> 00:26:46,080 Speaker 1: actually tightened the strangle hold in the North Korean economy. 403 00:26:46,200 --> 00:26:48,920 Speaker 1: So as opposed to days in the past where they 404 00:26:48,920 --> 00:26:52,000 Speaker 1: thought they could just string us along, I don't think 405 00:26:52,040 --> 00:26:57,280 Speaker 1: they feel that way anymore now. Again, six months from now, 406 00:26:57,480 --> 00:27:02,640 Speaker 1: they could decide that they've done enough and start backsliding 407 00:27:02,680 --> 00:27:05,200 Speaker 1: on us. So this is going to be a work 408 00:27:05,200 --> 00:27:08,520 Speaker 1: in progress for a while. But so far, so good. Yeah, 409 00:27:08,520 --> 00:27:11,440 Speaker 1: It's an interesting thing because all of the people who 410 00:27:11,600 --> 00:27:14,600 Speaker 1: were regarded as experts, you know in years past said 411 00:27:14,720 --> 00:27:18,119 Speaker 1: we we don't negotiate with a country like North Korea, 412 00:27:18,200 --> 00:27:20,680 Speaker 1: we don't meet with their leaders. And he went against 413 00:27:20,680 --> 00:27:24,359 Speaker 1: that conventional wisdom. Yeah, but he does it on the 414 00:27:24,359 --> 00:27:28,480 Speaker 1: basis of the fact that these guys actually, first of all, 415 00:27:28,560 --> 00:27:32,760 Speaker 1: he was already applying very significant pressure to them and 416 00:27:32,880 --> 00:27:37,480 Speaker 1: to their Chinese patrons. And secondly, they actually believe there 417 00:27:37,600 --> 00:27:42,479 Speaker 1: is a possibility that he might blow them off the 418 00:27:42,480 --> 00:27:47,440 Speaker 1: face of the earth. Um, you know, negotiation, I don't 419 00:27:47,480 --> 00:27:50,640 Speaker 1: care what it is man, whoever you're talking to, it's 420 00:27:50,680 --> 00:27:54,440 Speaker 1: all about leverage. You gotta you gotta have some kind 421 00:27:54,480 --> 00:27:57,600 Speaker 1: of leverage over the guy across the table, or he 422 00:27:57,640 --> 00:28:01,639 Speaker 1: owns you. And you know, nobody believed that Barack Obama 423 00:28:01,720 --> 00:28:04,359 Speaker 1: was ever going to do anything serious to the North 424 00:28:04,440 --> 00:28:07,640 Speaker 1: Korean So why on the God's green earth would they 425 00:28:07,640 --> 00:28:11,360 Speaker 1: ever listen to him. They could ignore him at at 426 00:28:11,400 --> 00:28:15,280 Speaker 1: will with no consequences whatsoever. Say whatever you want about 427 00:28:15,320 --> 00:28:19,360 Speaker 1: Donald Trump, they don't feel the same way about him. Yeah, 428 00:28:19,400 --> 00:28:21,760 Speaker 1: I also feel it it brought some leverage for the 429 00:28:21,840 --> 00:28:24,880 Speaker 1: US to the situation when we turned them down at 430 00:28:24,960 --> 00:28:26,879 Speaker 1: at one point and said that we were not going 431 00:28:26,920 --> 00:28:31,199 Speaker 1: to meet until they, you know, met with our standards, 432 00:28:31,240 --> 00:28:33,320 Speaker 1: and we eventually did have the meeting. But I think 433 00:28:33,359 --> 00:28:36,280 Speaker 1: that that showed, um a sign of dominance for the 434 00:28:36,320 --> 00:28:40,160 Speaker 1: US to do that. Yeah. Look, I mean, you know again, 435 00:28:40,200 --> 00:28:42,920 Speaker 1: I think there are times when Donald Trump tweets something 436 00:28:42,920 --> 00:28:46,560 Speaker 1: and I think, oh my god, but somebody have rewritten 437 00:28:46,600 --> 00:28:49,240 Speaker 1: that for you. But but the bottom line is that 438 00:28:49,560 --> 00:28:52,720 Speaker 1: he what what he did get across that very clear terms, 439 00:28:52,920 --> 00:28:57,240 Speaker 1: is I might just opt for blowing you off the 440 00:28:57,280 --> 00:29:00,560 Speaker 1: face of New York. And in fact, at least on occasion, 441 00:29:01,080 --> 00:29:04,400 Speaker 1: he said pretty clearly, and don't assume that nuclear weapons 442 00:29:04,400 --> 00:29:07,720 Speaker 1: are not included in what I will use. I you know, 443 00:29:07,840 --> 00:29:10,440 Speaker 1: I it's all on the table. Man. If you make 444 00:29:10,520 --> 00:29:13,960 Speaker 1: me yourself a big enough threat, you will be exterminating. 445 00:29:14,120 --> 00:29:17,040 Speaker 1: And and for coming from him, they believe that that's 446 00:29:17,360 --> 00:29:20,600 Speaker 1: that's a good that's a good way to begin talk. Yeah, 447 00:29:20,720 --> 00:29:23,120 Speaker 1: I I agree with you on that. And you know, 448 00:29:23,200 --> 00:29:25,560 Speaker 1: on this show, Jack and I, Jack Murphy and I 449 00:29:25,600 --> 00:29:28,400 Speaker 1: have been very objective about the situation. But I echo 450 00:29:28,480 --> 00:29:30,920 Speaker 1: what you say on that, and you're someone I would 451 00:29:30,920 --> 00:29:34,360 Speaker 1: definitely consider an expert on this. UM. Moving on to Russia, 452 00:29:34,400 --> 00:29:38,040 Speaker 1: of course, a lot of people UM were offended by 453 00:29:38,120 --> 00:29:40,480 Speaker 1: would they see as Trump taking the side of of 454 00:29:40,480 --> 00:29:44,360 Speaker 1: Putin over you know, our intelligence. So I just figure 455 00:29:44,440 --> 00:29:47,280 Speaker 1: with you, as a retired CIA operations officer, I'd like 456 00:29:47,320 --> 00:29:52,760 Speaker 1: to hear your take on that. Well, look, I don't 457 00:29:53,200 --> 00:29:57,280 Speaker 1: I don't have any idea what exactly the President was 458 00:29:57,320 --> 00:30:02,280 Speaker 1: trying to say at the news conference following UM it 459 00:30:02,520 --> 00:30:07,720 Speaker 1: was his comments were in artful at a at a minimum. 460 00:30:07,840 --> 00:30:10,680 Speaker 1: And you know that certainly not the way I would 461 00:30:10,680 --> 00:30:14,719 Speaker 1: have written the script for him, uh for such an event. 462 00:30:14,840 --> 00:30:19,280 Speaker 1: But let's look at this realistically. First of all, he's 463 00:30:19,320 --> 00:30:23,880 Speaker 1: having a private, one on one meeting with Putin. No 464 00:30:23,920 --> 00:30:27,240 Speaker 1: matter what is said in private, slapping the guy in 465 00:30:27,280 --> 00:30:30,720 Speaker 1: the face in public and from the world is counterproductive. 466 00:30:31,680 --> 00:30:33,600 Speaker 1: All that's gonna do is make him get his back 467 00:30:33,680 --> 00:30:38,520 Speaker 1: up and oppose whatever you wanted. I mean that publicly 468 00:30:39,680 --> 00:30:43,680 Speaker 1: causing somebody to lose face is very rarely a I mean, 469 00:30:43,680 --> 00:30:46,480 Speaker 1: in certain situations it maybe it's called for. It definitely 470 00:30:46,520 --> 00:30:48,800 Speaker 1: not going to be the thing that's gonna gonna work 471 00:30:48,800 --> 00:30:51,560 Speaker 1: with Vladimir Putin. And secondly, I would just say this, 472 00:30:52,120 --> 00:30:55,680 Speaker 1: if you look at the policies this president has followed 473 00:30:55,720 --> 00:30:58,480 Speaker 1: in regard to Russia since he came into office, right 474 00:30:59,280 --> 00:31:06,400 Speaker 1: we got uh the The Ukrainians asked the Obama administration 475 00:31:06,520 --> 00:31:10,400 Speaker 1: for years for javel and anti tank missiles to counter 476 00:31:10,520 --> 00:31:14,640 Speaker 1: the Russians having after the invasion of Crimea and to 477 00:31:14,720 --> 00:31:18,440 Speaker 1: deal with this continuing low level war. They were turned 478 00:31:18,480 --> 00:31:22,560 Speaker 1: down and basically sent m R s and first aid kids. 479 00:31:22,560 --> 00:31:26,680 Speaker 1: This administration is now shipping top of the line Javelon 480 00:31:26,760 --> 00:31:30,160 Speaker 1: anti tank missiles by the hundreds to the Ukrainians and 481 00:31:30,200 --> 00:31:33,680 Speaker 1: to a number of other Eastern European countries face that 482 00:31:33,800 --> 00:31:38,520 Speaker 1: faced with the Russians, including Georgia. It's selling Patriot anti 483 00:31:38,560 --> 00:31:42,160 Speaker 1: defense air defense missiles to the Polls and to several 484 00:31:42,160 --> 00:31:46,240 Speaker 1: other Eastern European countries, all of this specifically to allow 485 00:31:46,280 --> 00:31:49,080 Speaker 1: them to shoot down Russian aircraft in the event of 486 00:31:49,080 --> 00:31:52,440 Speaker 1: a conflict. We got big war games going on in 487 00:31:52,520 --> 00:31:57,080 Speaker 1: Eastern Europe, with US troops practicing moving rapidly to the 488 00:31:57,160 --> 00:32:00,680 Speaker 1: Russian border. We got the Polls talking to US about 489 00:32:00,720 --> 00:32:04,920 Speaker 1: basing an armored division now on their soil, a US 490 00:32:05,120 --> 00:32:08,320 Speaker 1: armored division, and we're in talks with them, and you 491 00:32:08,480 --> 00:32:12,680 Speaker 1: go down this this road. By the way, you should 492 00:32:12,720 --> 00:32:17,800 Speaker 1: mention about what February, we had a battalion of Russian 493 00:32:17,840 --> 00:32:23,960 Speaker 1: mercenaries in Syria that got frisky and started threatening American 494 00:32:23,960 --> 00:32:28,000 Speaker 1: troops on the ground, and we obliterated that entire battality 495 00:32:28,360 --> 00:32:33,880 Speaker 1: something like five Russian dead. So it's very hard for 496 00:32:33,920 --> 00:32:36,560 Speaker 1: me to square all of those actions with the idea 497 00:32:36,680 --> 00:32:40,880 Speaker 1: that Donald Trump is in Vladimir Putin's pocket. These are 498 00:32:41,440 --> 00:32:44,560 Speaker 1: the most hardline positions we've taken on the Russians in 499 00:32:44,720 --> 00:32:49,480 Speaker 1: many years. So again, you know, I would have liked 500 00:32:49,520 --> 00:32:53,680 Speaker 1: to have heard him say different things and that press 501 00:32:53,760 --> 00:32:57,600 Speaker 1: conference in Helsinki, but I think his actions demonstrate that 502 00:32:57,640 --> 00:33:00,520 Speaker 1: he's pretty hard line on the Russians. I think that's 503 00:33:00,520 --> 00:33:03,200 Speaker 1: a very fair assessment, and and I do think actions, 504 00:33:03,240 --> 00:33:06,719 Speaker 1: of course, speak louder than words, which sums that up. 505 00:33:07,080 --> 00:33:09,480 Speaker 1: I'm wondering, Sam, are you working on any new projects, 506 00:33:09,520 --> 00:33:12,560 Speaker 1: any new books, or anything like that on the horizon. 507 00:33:14,000 --> 00:33:16,120 Speaker 1: So I have finished a book, which is a book 508 00:33:16,120 --> 00:33:18,720 Speaker 1: about my team inside of Rock, because I took the 509 00:33:18,760 --> 00:33:22,080 Speaker 1: first team into a Rock almost a year in advance 510 00:33:22,080 --> 00:33:26,160 Speaker 1: of the invasion. I went in a note too, and 511 00:33:26,240 --> 00:33:28,640 Speaker 1: that book is done and it's sitting with the Central 512 00:33:28,680 --> 00:33:33,880 Speaker 1: Intelligence Agency for clearance. As per my secrecy oath, and 513 00:33:33,920 --> 00:33:36,720 Speaker 1: I hope to have it back cleared in a couple 514 00:33:36,720 --> 00:33:40,400 Speaker 1: of weeks and see how fast we can we can 515 00:33:40,400 --> 00:33:42,720 Speaker 1: get it we can get it published. I am also 516 00:33:43,920 --> 00:33:46,800 Speaker 1: at the very early stages of looking at a project too, 517 00:33:47,680 --> 00:33:49,200 Speaker 1: in line with what you and I were talking about 518 00:33:49,200 --> 00:33:51,520 Speaker 1: a few minutes ago, to look at homeland security. You 519 00:33:51,560 --> 00:33:55,360 Speaker 1: know this, many years after nine eleven, where are we 520 00:33:55,440 --> 00:33:59,960 Speaker 1: really in terms of preventing another serious terrorist attack, particular 521 00:34:00,080 --> 00:34:03,280 Speaker 1: a mass casualty attack. And the idea for that is 522 00:34:03,320 --> 00:34:07,600 Speaker 1: to go out and really look at targets. Uh you know, 523 00:34:07,800 --> 00:34:09,719 Speaker 1: it's the way a terrorist would look at it, To 524 00:34:09,840 --> 00:34:14,240 Speaker 1: basically go case the targets, look at the targets and 525 00:34:14,239 --> 00:34:17,560 Speaker 1: and evaluate them. We'll have to we'll have to fuzz 526 00:34:17,640 --> 00:34:19,640 Speaker 1: the lens a little bit at some point so it 527 00:34:19,680 --> 00:34:23,440 Speaker 1: doesn't turn into a how to book for bad guys. 528 00:34:23,560 --> 00:34:28,120 Speaker 1: But yeah, I think we can manage that. I'm looking 529 00:34:28,160 --> 00:34:30,719 Speaker 1: forward to that because, well, as you said, I mean, 530 00:34:30,760 --> 00:34:32,799 Speaker 1: there's a lot of things that need to be looked 531 00:34:32,840 --> 00:34:34,719 Speaker 1: at that are not being looked at, and we're just 532 00:34:34,880 --> 00:34:38,800 Speaker 1: viewing what has already happened, which I would agree as counterproductive. 533 00:34:38,920 --> 00:34:41,080 Speaker 1: So I look forward to that being on the horizon 534 00:34:41,200 --> 00:34:43,239 Speaker 1: and another reason I brought you on. Of course, as 535 00:34:43,239 --> 00:34:46,520 Speaker 1: I mentioned that during the intro, was we're rolling out 536 00:34:46,560 --> 00:34:48,719 Speaker 1: that inside the team room you were just on on 537 00:34:48,920 --> 00:34:51,880 Speaker 1: the spec Ops channel spec ops channel dot com. I 538 00:34:51,880 --> 00:34:54,959 Speaker 1: think people are really gonna love it between you and 539 00:34:55,280 --> 00:34:58,719 Speaker 1: James Powell and the other guys there. Um, I just 540 00:34:58,760 --> 00:35:02,440 Speaker 1: want to hear your assessment of how that went and 541 00:35:02,760 --> 00:35:06,839 Speaker 1: what people can look forward to on that channel. Yeah, well, 542 00:35:06,880 --> 00:35:10,160 Speaker 1: first of all, we had a lot of fun um 543 00:35:10,239 --> 00:35:13,720 Speaker 1: and uh, it's just a very relaxed informal setting. Anybody 544 00:35:13,719 --> 00:35:17,239 Speaker 1: that's familiar with the feature knows how that goes. I mean, 545 00:35:17,280 --> 00:35:20,000 Speaker 1: what it what it gives. What it does is it 546 00:35:20,040 --> 00:35:24,560 Speaker 1: puts a bunch of people from different from coming from 547 00:35:24,560 --> 00:35:29,440 Speaker 1: slightly different walks related to intelligence in the same room 548 00:35:29,480 --> 00:35:31,600 Speaker 1: and let's she kind of talk about the things that 549 00:35:31,840 --> 00:35:35,720 Speaker 1: are the same, things that aren't the different share perspectives. 550 00:35:36,920 --> 00:35:40,360 Speaker 1: I think that kind of that kind of conversation is 551 00:35:40,400 --> 00:35:45,040 Speaker 1: always fascinating, you know, you find the differences in the 552 00:35:45,080 --> 00:35:49,239 Speaker 1: commonalities and the craft. I agree. I was. I was 553 00:35:49,280 --> 00:35:52,840 Speaker 1: a fly on the wall during the whole recording, and 554 00:35:53,160 --> 00:35:55,440 Speaker 1: I'm looking forward to just seeing what makes it because 555 00:35:55,560 --> 00:35:57,960 Speaker 1: it was a it was a long recording that you know, 556 00:35:57,960 --> 00:36:00,080 Speaker 1: it was a long shoot that you guys did and 557 00:36:00,160 --> 00:36:03,279 Speaker 1: a lot of great information out there. So that's why 558 00:36:03,360 --> 00:36:06,279 Speaker 1: we're rolling it all out in in segments. And like 559 00:36:06,320 --> 00:36:10,560 Speaker 1: I said, I think your background, Danielle's background, um, James 560 00:36:10,560 --> 00:36:13,920 Speaker 1: Powell and the Odissean so different. But I think that 561 00:36:14,080 --> 00:36:15,600 Speaker 1: there was a lot of stuff people are going to 562 00:36:15,719 --> 00:36:19,759 Speaker 1: learn when they watch that. Yeah, I mean Danielle is 563 00:36:19,960 --> 00:36:22,000 Speaker 1: Danielle super some of them. Some of the folks that 564 00:36:22,080 --> 00:36:25,160 Speaker 1: were there, like her, I've known for quite sometimes some 565 00:36:25,239 --> 00:36:28,160 Speaker 1: of them I met that uh you know that day 566 00:36:28,160 --> 00:36:31,640 Speaker 1: when we were we were doing the taping. But it's 567 00:36:31,680 --> 00:36:36,680 Speaker 1: it's always interesting to have that blend of experiences. Absolutely well. 568 00:36:36,719 --> 00:36:40,040 Speaker 1: Once again, you can check out Sam Fattest dot com 569 00:36:40,080 --> 00:36:43,120 Speaker 1: at real Sam Fattus on Twitter and that's Sam f 570 00:36:43,360 --> 00:36:46,960 Speaker 1: A D D. I S. Anything else that you want 571 00:36:46,960 --> 00:36:49,520 Speaker 1: to mention before we wrap this up, because I think 572 00:36:49,520 --> 00:36:51,600 Speaker 1: this has been great and I'm really looking forward to 573 00:36:51,680 --> 00:36:55,640 Speaker 1: that work. Uh. No, appreciate you guys have me on, 574 00:36:55,760 --> 00:37:00,439 Speaker 1: happy to do it anytime. I hope that you guys 575 00:37:00,520 --> 00:37:03,759 Speaker 1: enjoyed that interview with Sam Fattus. A lot more great 576 00:37:03,800 --> 00:37:08,399 Speaker 1: stuff to come as August is on the horizon, bring 577 00:37:08,440 --> 00:37:11,399 Speaker 1: a lot of guests on, whether it's Pat McNamara coming 578 00:37:11,440 --> 00:37:15,560 Speaker 1: back on or c. J. Woodroff you might know from 579 00:37:15,600 --> 00:37:19,480 Speaker 1: the fitness community, but who's also a Marine Corps veteran 580 00:37:19,640 --> 00:37:22,160 Speaker 1: combat veteran, and know a lot other people that I'm 581 00:37:22,160 --> 00:37:25,000 Speaker 1: working with who will be on soon. So keeping things 582 00:37:25,080 --> 00:37:28,560 Speaker 1: interesting while Jack is away. Um and I might even 583 00:37:28,640 --> 00:37:30,799 Speaker 1: bring Jack on at some point to let us know 584 00:37:30,840 --> 00:37:33,120 Speaker 1: how he's doing and give an update. But keep your 585 00:37:33,160 --> 00:37:38,000 Speaker 1: eyes on soft rep dot com for all the latest news. Uh. And, 586 00:37:38,120 --> 00:37:41,040 Speaker 1: as I said before, join our clubs, whether it's great 587 00:37:41,120 --> 00:37:44,839 Speaker 1: Club dot us or Kuna who we've partnered with that's 588 00:37:44,840 --> 00:37:48,840 Speaker 1: at Kuna dot Doug. 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Uh. 604 00:38:36,520 --> 00:38:39,919 Speaker 1: If you have any photos of some books that you've 605 00:38:39,960 --> 00:38:44,000 Speaker 1: bought from any recent guests that you are influenced by 606 00:38:44,000 --> 00:38:47,880 Speaker 1: the podcast to read, feel free to tag us in 607 00:38:47,920 --> 00:38:50,759 Speaker 1: those pictures on Instagram and I may even repost some 608 00:38:50,840 --> 00:38:55,520 Speaker 1: of them. So yeah, at soft Rep Radio, Twitter and Instagram, 609 00:38:55,600 --> 00:38:58,560 Speaker 1: And we'll be back on Wednesday with a new episode. 610 00:38:59,040 --> 00:39:04,280 Speaker 1: And on that ye you've been listening to soft Rep Radio. 611 00:39:04,760 --> 00:39:08,360 Speaker 1: New episodes up every Wednesday and Friday for all of 612 00:39:08,360 --> 00:39:11,920 Speaker 1: the great content from our veteran journalists. 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