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Speaker 1: I'm Kate Winkler Dawson. I'm a journalist who's spent the

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Speaker 1: last twenty five years writing about true crime.

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Speaker 2: And I'm Paul Hols, a retired cold case investigator who's

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Speaker 2: worked some of America's most complicated cases and solve them.

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Speaker 1: Each week, I present Paul with one of history's most

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Speaker 1: compelling true crimes.

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Speaker 2: And I weigh in using modern forensic techniques to bring

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Speaker 2: new insights to old mysteries.

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Speaker 1: Together, using our individual expertise, we're examining historical true crime

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Speaker 1: cases through a twenty first century lens.

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Speaker 2: Some are solved and some are cold, very cold.

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Speaker 3: This is buried bones. Hey, Kate, Hi, how are you?

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Speaker 2: No, I'm doing good. How are you doing?

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Speaker 4: I'm doing really well.

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Speaker 1: I was just reading an article about covering as a

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Speaker 1: reporter contemporary crime, which is a topic you and I

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Speaker 1: have talked about before. It makes me super nervous. What

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Speaker 1: did my grandmother used to say? More nervous than a

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Speaker 1: long tailed cat in a room full of rocking chairs.

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Speaker 2: That's an expression.

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Speaker 1: Remember we're from Texas, So it makes me super nervous

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Speaker 1: just to report on contemporary crime because I'm so concerned

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Speaker 1: to make sure I get all of the facts right

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Speaker 1: that I don't retraumatize victims. I really prefer to work

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Speaker 1: with older cases where the families are really invested, but

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Speaker 1: the wound is not quite as open as it is

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Speaker 1: with these, you know, more contemporary crimes. And I know

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Speaker 1: that you've had some experiences talking with the families of victims.

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Speaker 1: I think that really resonated with you about more recent crimes,

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Speaker 1: even aside from the Golden State killer case.

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Speaker 2: Well, yeah, you know, of course, throughout my career those

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Speaker 2: working cases that were contemporary. You know, so there are

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Speaker 2: living victims, loved ones, most notably Golden State killer. I

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Speaker 2: was dealing with actual victims in addition to the loved

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Speaker 2: ones of the homicide victims. And you know, different people

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Speaker 2: have different thoughts, you know, on how they want the

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Speaker 2: media to cover their case. You know, some families really

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Speaker 2: want the case pushed out because the more attention, you know,

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Speaker 2: the greater likelihood that maybe it will get solved, or

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Speaker 2: it helps, you know, if they've lost a loved one

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Speaker 2: to a crime, it helps keep their loved ones memory alive.

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Speaker 2: There is that philosophy. But then there are families that

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Speaker 2: do not want to have their cases out there in

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Speaker 2: the public, and they don't want the details out there.

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Speaker 2: They don't want to hear some of the details that

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Speaker 2: maybe they were unaware of. And that's what I've run into.

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Speaker 2: I had one very notable and so, and this is

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Speaker 2: related to a victim of the Golden State killer of

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Speaker 2: Joseph DiAngelo, where on a TV show I mentioned some

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Speaker 2: reconstruction aspects in terms of what DiAngelo had done in

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Speaker 2: this particular homicide case. And this was something that the

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Speaker 2: family really struggled with and it traumatized them. And the

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Speaker 2: daughter of this victim confronted me. She was hurt, she

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Speaker 2: was upset with me, she was hurt, and it was

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Speaker 2: a learning experience for me, you know. And so this

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Speaker 2: is where now that I'm in this public arena and

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Speaker 2: talking about cases, I struggle with how detailed should I get,

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Speaker 2: you know, sometimes because I may go into a realm

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Speaker 2: which could be very very hard for loved ones and

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Speaker 2: the victims to hear what happened to their victim.

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Speaker 1: And you know, as a journalist and as a investigator,

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Speaker 1: you and I are both used to putting up a

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Speaker 1: little bit of a wall and receiving all of this

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Speaker 1: evidence and all of this information that would be so

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Speaker 1: upsetting to family members and to the lay public. But

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Speaker 1: this is part of our job is to look and

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Speaker 1: analyze this information.

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Speaker 4: So I imagine I've seen you at crime.

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Speaker 1: Con doing these really in depth presentations. I imagine it

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Speaker 1: is stressful after that experience to then decide what to

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Speaker 1: include and what not to include in a room of

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Speaker 1: two thousand people, which is what I saw you in, right.

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Speaker 2: And it is a conscious decision in terms of what

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Speaker 2: I do include. You know, of course, when I train

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Speaker 2: law enforcement, I am very wide open about the details,

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Speaker 2: because that is how law enforcement needs to hear the case.

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Speaker 2: That's how we improve to do the job right and

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Speaker 2: to do the case right. But when talking to a

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Speaker 2: mostly civilian population, it's now that fine balance of here's

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Speaker 2: the case. Here are the details of the case, so

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Speaker 2: the listeners can understand the case, better understand what the

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Speaker 2: offender did, the psychology, the forensics. But it's really a

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Speaker 2: struggle to go, well, when do I cross that line,

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Speaker 2: and oftentimes, you know, I'm really coming up short when

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Speaker 2: I start talking about the details of the actual violence

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Speaker 2: on the victim. And that's where it's kept more generic.

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Speaker 2: When I talk, you know, to the civilians victim was strangled,

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Speaker 2: versus going into the detail about the wounding patterns and

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Speaker 2: what I can discern from it. So it is it's

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Speaker 2: a tough thing. But you know, for me, I obviously

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Speaker 2: got a very different mindset than you because I'm used

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Speaker 2: to working cases that had just happened, right, And so

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Speaker 2: my expectation is is, you know, I am going to

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Speaker 2: be having to deal with victims families at some point

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Speaker 2: in these cases.

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Speaker 1: Well, this is the case, the one I'm bringing you today.

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Speaker 1: This is an interesting case for me because this was

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Speaker 1: a family who came to me, And I get all

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Speaker 1: sorts of inquiries from family members for tenfold more wicked.

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Speaker 1: I don't get so many for buried bones just yet.

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Speaker 1: And this was a family who came to me and said,

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Speaker 1: you know, I know you've got this show. I would

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Speaker 1: really love to hear what Paul Holes has to say

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Speaker 1: and what you have to say about this case.

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Speaker 4: It's been in our family.

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Speaker 1: We didn't know the victims, but there are people alive

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Speaker 1: now who did know the victims, and there's a lot

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Speaker 1: of controversy within this family about what happened. So I

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Speaker 1: want to be clear going into this. This is the

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Speaker 1: long tailed cat me saying this makes me nervous because

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Speaker 1: the family really wants me to do this. But I

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Speaker 1: had about seven interviews with them. It was a lot

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Speaker 1: of correspondents, a lot of talking. I wasn't able to

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Speaker 1: talk to some family members I would have liked to

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Speaker 1: have talked to. And the family has gathered their own information.

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Speaker 1: But the two men who came to me with this

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Speaker 1: story feel pretty unbiased. They feel like we just want

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Speaker 1: some answers. We don't have a dog in this hunt, really,

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Speaker 1: so let's go ahead and set the scene. This story

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Speaker 1: comes to us from this family, who all come from

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Speaker 1: the Jorgensen family is everybody's had their names changed since

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Speaker 1: nineteen sixty three.

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Speaker 3: This is in Payatt County, Idaho. Have you done much

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Speaker 3: in Idaho?

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Speaker 1: I'm a I think you've been everywhere, so I'm assuming

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Speaker 1: you've been to Idaho.

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Speaker 2: Also, no, believe it or not, I've never been to Idaho.

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Speaker 2: It's on my bucket list for sure, but I've heard

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Speaker 2: like you have. It's a beautiful area and there's a

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Speaker 2: lot of law enforcement out of the Bay Area that

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Speaker 2: have retired and move up to select cities within Idaho.

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Speaker 2: I do know that, so there's a good chance, I'll

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Speaker 2: probably visit somebody out there at some point.

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Speaker 1: So this is Payatt County in Idaho. It's a southwestern

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Speaker 1: part of the state which is near the Oregon border,

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Speaker 1: so it's about an hour's drive from Boise, very rural,

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Speaker 1: and we're talking about end of January of nineteen sixty

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Speaker 1: three January twenty.

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Speaker 4: Third, so very very cold.

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Speaker 1: I don't think the cold weather is really going to

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Speaker 1: affect this story. I know I often give you a

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Speaker 1: weather warning when we have an outdoor scene, and you

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Speaker 1: need to really be aware of what the weather's like

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Speaker 1: in this scene, but this is not too much. I

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Speaker 1: just think it's interesting. So very very very frigid cold.

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Speaker 1: Payatt County, where this has happened, was very much the

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Speaker 1: opposite of city life. Think rural countryside, very slow moving,

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Speaker 1: small village type. For me, it seems like a village.

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Speaker 1: The whole county is just twelve thousand people in nineteen

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Speaker 1: sixty three, absolutely beautiful farming, great fishing, low crime. The

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Speaker 1: family said this was just the most idyllic place you

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Speaker 1: could go to visit. And this is of course a

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Speaker 1: place I know this is a cliche, but it's where

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Speaker 1: everybody knew their neighbors. Everyone was very aware of the

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Speaker 1: drama and the rumors that were happening in this area,

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Speaker 1: which typically does, of course, I'm assuming, not help a

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Speaker 1: murder investigation at all. I know, you have a big

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Speaker 1: city with lots of choices, but then when you have

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Speaker 1: this small town, everybody starts to point fingers at each other.

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Speaker 4: I imagine, well, you.

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Speaker 2: Get the rumor mill going, and the rumors spread like wildfire.

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Speaker 2: So now the whole town has heard something that may

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Speaker 2: be factual about the case or maybe completely wrong, and

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Speaker 2: that does complicate an investigation when now are talking to

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Speaker 2: witnesses and they've heard something off to the side, and

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Speaker 2: now what they may have been a witness to or

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Speaker 2: of has been tainted.

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Speaker 1: And I think that we might have a little bit

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Speaker 1: of a case of that here, But we'll just have

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Speaker 1: to see as this unfolds. This is probably not going

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Speaker 1: to surprise you. In a small county, but there is

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Speaker 1: a sheriff and a deputy, and that is it. That

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Speaker 1: is their whole department of law. There is a sheriff

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Speaker 1: and a deputy which have never really had to cover

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Speaker 1: a case like what we're about to talk about. So

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Speaker 1: going into it, I'll be interested to see how you

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Speaker 1: think they did with working this case with as few

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Speaker 1: resources as I imagine they had.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and do you know, is there a nearby city

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Speaker 2: with a police department that maybe is a larger department

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Speaker 2: than this sheriff's.

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Speaker 1: It's about an hour from Boise, so I'm unclear on

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Speaker 1: if they called in Boise. I think they must have,

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Speaker 1: but I think that the sheriff really took the reins here.

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Speaker 1: And I'll say that the deputy daughter talked to the family.

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Speaker 1: The sole deputy's daughter talked to the family and said

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Speaker 1: that this sheriff was so well liked that the deputy

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Speaker 1: named one of his sons after the sheriff because he

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Speaker 1: was just so impressed with this man, which you know,

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Speaker 1: I know it's your boss, but I.

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Speaker 3: Think it says something. In a small town.

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Speaker 1: He was very well respected, and I think became more

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Speaker 1: respected after this case.

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Speaker 4: So let me tell you about this. This is the

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Speaker 4: center of the story.

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Speaker 1: Your murder location is called, I think one of the

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Speaker 1: most creative names, the Wayside Cafe. So the Wayside the

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Speaker 1: Wayside Cafe is owned by a couple. It's this unassuming

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Speaker 1: gas station and a diner, and I know it sounds large,

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Speaker 1: but when I show it to you, it's very tiny.

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Speaker 3: This is not a big scene we're talking about here.

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Speaker 1: It's a white log exterior in the southern part of

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Speaker 1: the county off of an old highway road, so Highway thirty.

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Speaker 1: So people traveling throughout Idaho and into Oregon might have

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Speaker 1: passed by, and they were popular local.

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Speaker 4: Good diner, good food.

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Speaker 1: It was run by a woman named Daisy Jorgensen since

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Speaker 1: nineteen fifty one, so she had been running this for

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Speaker 1: twelve years, and eventually she married seven years later a

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Speaker 1: man named Nils Jorgensen. In nineteen fifty eight, the two

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Speaker 1: of them started running it together and they had living

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Speaker 1: quarters on the property.

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Speaker 4: They had family living really nearby.

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Speaker 1: Everything was centered on the Wayside Cafe, and that's why

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Speaker 1: I've named this Wayside Cafe because it really is the

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Speaker 1: epicenter for this story. I'm going to be a little

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Speaker 1: bit of a spoiler here and say these are two

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Speaker 1: of our three victims. So Daisy is sixty four, she

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Speaker 1: was born in Texas, and Nils is seventy nine and

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Speaker 1: he was born in Denmark and he immigrated to the

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Speaker 1: United States when he was eight years old. Both had

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Speaker 1: had spouses previously who had died, and they both had

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Speaker 1: kids from these spouses, so you know they married later

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Speaker 1: in life. One interesting note I did not know until

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Speaker 1: I talked about the family. Neils was deaf. You could

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Speaker 1: stand right behind him and he would never hear you,

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Speaker 1: and that might also play into this story. Beloved family.

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Speaker 1: Everybody thought that they were fantastic. You know, they met

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Speaker 1: because Nils was farming nearby. He went to the wayside cafe,

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Speaker 1: he met Daisy. They just seemed to have a really

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Speaker 1: lovely relationship. Daisy had an adult son named Billy Bristow.

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Speaker 1: Now Billy is one of the issues that we have

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Speaker 1: in this case. He was staying with him at the

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Speaker 1: wayside cafe. He's thirty eight years old. He's a truck driver,

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Speaker 1: a World War Two vet, and he is trouble, lots

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Speaker 1: and lots of trouble. And we'll get into that in

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Speaker 1: a little bit, I think, once we kind of talk

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Speaker 1: about what ends up happening. In this case, Billy had

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Speaker 1: just come to visit. It was a temporary stay. He'd

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Speaker 1: only been in the town for about two weeks. He

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Speaker 1: was visiting his ex wife and his children, who lived

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Speaker 1: very close by.

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Speaker 4: The cafe.

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Speaker 1: This was the family I was referring to, but Billy's

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Speaker 1: permanent home was in Nevada, in Winnemucca. Now this is

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Speaker 1: where the whole rumor mill starts. We are going to

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Speaker 1: talk about the crime in a second. We have three victims.

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Speaker 1: What we do know is that the family members who

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Speaker 1: are alive who knew Billy, say that the day of

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Speaker 1: the murder, he was very, very agitated. Okay, so he

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Speaker 1: is walking around, pacing around. He usually has a lot

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Speaker 1: of bravado. He looks scared, he looks upset. Nobody knew

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Speaker 1: what the issue was. There are a lot of rumors

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Speaker 1: about Billy having a gambling problem, having problems with his

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Speaker 1: ex wife who lives right next door. So now we're

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Speaker 1: going to talk about the case. Here is what happens.

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Speaker 1: At six point thirty in the morning on January twenty fourth,

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Speaker 1: nineteen sixty three, a bakery delivery man named Wayne Gobert

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Speaker 1: pulled into the cafe to drop off a bread order,

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Speaker 1: which he did often. Lights were on. He steps inside.

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Speaker 1: He calls out for the Jorgan sense for Daisy and

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Speaker 1: for Neil's. Nobody responds. He walks to the back. He

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Speaker 1: says two dead bodies, Nil's and Billy. I bet you

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Speaker 1: thought Billy was going to be the perpetrator. Did you

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Speaker 1: think that the sun was going to be the perpetrator?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, you know I was. I was starting to, you know,

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Speaker 2: think about this going. Okay, So the two dead bodies

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Speaker 2: are obviously going to be Daisy and Eels and Billy

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Speaker 2: is a wall. That was what I thought you were

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Speaker 2: going to be saying.

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Speaker 4: Billy was not a wall.

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Speaker 1: Billy was dead on the floor of the kitchen, and

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Speaker 1: Nil's and Billy were collapsed like they had been cornered there.

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Speaker 1: And Billy's pocket knife was open on the floor beside him,

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Speaker 1: as if he saw something coming, flipped open the pocket

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Speaker 1: knife and he literally brought a knife to a gunfight

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Speaker 1: because he and Neil's were shot dead with a thirty

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Speaker 1: two caliber gun. Victim number three is Daisy Jorgensen, which

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Speaker 1: you probably could have guessed. So Daisy was found in

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Speaker 1: the bedroom which was off from the kitchen, and it

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Speaker 1: appeared that she had been shot, perhaps coming out and

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Speaker 1: hearing a ruckus shot and then she made it back

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Speaker 1: into the bedroom. And so I brought this up with

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Speaker 1: the family and said, well, wow, so whoever shot this woman.

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Speaker 1: She was alive long enough to crawl into the bedroom.

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Speaker 1: That seems like significant, and they said, no, this is

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Speaker 1: a very small space. The bedroom was literally two paces

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Speaker 1: from the kitchen. So you have three people dead from

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Speaker 1: gunshot wounds, and thus begins the investigation. So here are

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Speaker 1: the results of the autopsy. We've got these three people.

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Speaker 1: Neils was shot twice. This is the older man who

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Speaker 1: was deaf. He was shot twice, once in the forehead

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Speaker 1: and once on the right side base of his neck.

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Speaker 1: Daisy had been shot three times, twice in her face

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Speaker 1: and once in her right arm. She had injuries on

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Speaker 1: her right hand in her wrist, but it wasn't clear

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Speaker 1: whether these were defensive wounds or if she had had

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Speaker 1: him before the attack, you know, working in the storage room.

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Speaker 1: Then the last victim is Billy Bristow, the sun. He

300
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Speaker 1: was shot twice to the right of his nose and

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Speaker 1: to the left of his chest. There were slugs found

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00:16:13,880 --> 00:16:18,720
Speaker 1: in both Daisy and in Nil's. No slug found in Bristow.

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Speaker 1: It seemed to me like almost like somebody was spraying

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Speaker 1: the room with bullets, because it just doesn't seem very

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Speaker 1: experienced to you.

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Speaker 3: Right on the nose, right outside the nose.

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Speaker 2: Oh no, I'm hearing this very differently. I'm wondering do

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Speaker 2: you have any information as to the distance the pathologists

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Speaker 2: thought these shots were fired from very close?

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Speaker 4: This is a very small kitchen.

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Speaker 2: Well, part of what I'm asking is is that when

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Speaker 2: a gun is discharged very close to a target, you

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Speaker 2: have this firearms discharge, the gases as well as a

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Speaker 2: gun powder that come out of the muzzle of the gun,

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Speaker 2: and if the gun is close enough, you will see

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00:17:01,840 --> 00:17:06,119
Speaker 2: these deposits around the entry wound on the victim. Now

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Speaker 2: I'm talking about you know, this is six inches, eighteen inches,

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Speaker 2: twenty four inches depending on the gun and the ammunition,

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Speaker 2: showing very close range shots, which informs me in terms

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Speaker 2: of how close the offender is at the time the

321
00:17:20,280 --> 00:17:23,800
Speaker 2: shooting is occurring to each of the victims, all of

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Speaker 2: them have gun shots to the head. And if this

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Speaker 2: is occurring at a distance, even though this is a

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Speaker 2: small storefront, that starts to tell me, well, you may

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Speaker 2: be dealing with somebody who is a pretty decent shot.

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Speaker 2: Nils was shot, you know, twice in the face the head.

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Speaker 4: Once in the forehead.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, if the shooter is ten feet away and he's

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Speaker 2: accomplishing that, and I'm using the term he. I don't

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Speaker 2: know the gender of the offender right now, but I'm saying, okay, this,

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Speaker 2: you know, sometimes you get lucky. But this is also

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Speaker 2: showing at least a level of proficiency in using a firearm.

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Speaker 1: Okay, so this is a little more detail that could

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Speaker 1: be helpful. They found three spent cartridges in the kitchen

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Speaker 1: and three in the adjoining bedroom, which as I said,

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Speaker 1: was two steps maybe from the kitchen, as well as

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Speaker 1: a bullet near Billy Bristow's body. All six shots had

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Speaker 1: been fired, and all the bullets came from just one weapon,

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Speaker 1: which they believe came from the same thirty two Colt

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Speaker 1: automatic pistol, which was missing. The family said they did

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Speaker 1: not have a gun at the residence, so it sounds

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Speaker 1: like he brought a gun to or he or she

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Speaker 1: brought a gun to the scene.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so with the firearm missing, you know, that was

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Speaker 2: going to be one of my questions is, you know,

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Speaker 2: first we have to consider murder suicide. Billy takes out

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Speaker 2: Niels and Mom and then kills himself. But if the

348
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Speaker 2: delivery man is the first person into that shop since

349
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Speaker 2: the homicide occurred, then that would suggest that the offender

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Speaker 2: took the gun with him. Also, now, yes, we have

351
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Speaker 2: a triple homicide, a triple shooting thirty two caliber?

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Speaker 1: Is that a complicated gun? Would it be hard for

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Speaker 1: me to use? Because I've used guns before and they

354
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Speaker 1: have not been easy for me to use before.

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Speaker 2: You know, the caliber of the weapon really isn't a

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Speaker 2: determining factorist whether the gun is a complicated gun to

357
00:19:08,880 --> 00:19:13,560
Speaker 2: fire or not. Thirty two caliber is a smaller caliber weapon.

358
00:19:14,000 --> 00:19:17,560
Speaker 2: It's on the smaller side in modern shootings. We rarely

359
00:19:17,640 --> 00:19:20,439
Speaker 2: see these smaller calibers, though, I will tell you I

360
00:19:20,480 --> 00:19:25,080
Speaker 2: have responded alto homicides in which all calibers, all common

361
00:19:25,160 --> 00:19:28,400
Speaker 2: handgun calibers have been used from a twenty two all

362
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Speaker 2: the way up through. You know, you're forty five, and

363
00:19:31,680 --> 00:19:35,119
Speaker 2: all those calibers are capable of killing. But the thirty

364
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Speaker 2: two is a smaller round. It's not as powerful as

365
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Speaker 2: what you would get with your thirty eight or nine

366
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Speaker 2: millimeters or ten millimeters or your higher caliber weapons. And

367
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Speaker 2: this allows this gun. I think you said it was

368
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Speaker 2: a cult, so you know, this is a smaller handgun,

369
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Speaker 2: A thirty two cult that probably holds at most maybe

370
00:19:54,400 --> 00:19:57,480
Speaker 2: eight rounds. Yeah, it is my guess, you know. And

371
00:19:57,680 --> 00:20:00,520
Speaker 2: this is a gun that is easily put into a pocket.

372
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Speaker 2: Looking at a thirty two colt from the early nineteen hundreds,

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Speaker 2: this was the type of way that this gun was carried.

374
00:20:08,320 --> 00:20:11,200
Speaker 2: It was really sort of like a concealed carry weapon

375
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Speaker 2: that people would just slip into a pocket and was

376
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Speaker 2: easily drawn out of a pocket. It's something that if

377
00:20:18,080 --> 00:20:21,280
Speaker 2: somebody knows how to shoot a semi auto pistol, they

378
00:20:21,280 --> 00:20:22,480
Speaker 2: would be able to shoot this gun.

379
00:20:23,000 --> 00:20:24,840
Speaker 1: We don't have any photos from this case, but let

380
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Speaker 1: me show you a photo of the actual wayside cafe.

381
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Speaker 4: So this is it.

382
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Speaker 1: You can tell there's a car there where you can

383
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Speaker 1: see that. They're trying to give you some perspective. It's

384
00:20:34,080 --> 00:20:36,840
Speaker 1: not very big. Here's another angle if that helps at all.

385
00:20:37,160 --> 00:20:41,520
Speaker 2: It almost has a log cabin type feel to it, right, Yeah,

386
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Speaker 2: with multiple windows, multiple doors. It is significant to the

387
00:20:46,840 --> 00:20:50,399
Speaker 2: case that the delivery man when he gets to this

388
00:20:50,600 --> 00:20:53,040
Speaker 2: wayside cafe is that he's able to walk right in.

389
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Speaker 2: So it doesn't sound like this was locked as you

390
00:20:57,840 --> 00:21:02,320
Speaker 2: would expect if they had shut the store down and

391
00:21:02,480 --> 00:21:04,920
Speaker 2: the offender didn't take the time to lock up behind

392
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Speaker 2: him after he shot the three victims.

393
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Speaker 4: That's correct.

394
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Speaker 1: So the timeline here is that the cafe closed, the

395
00:21:11,680 --> 00:21:15,000
Speaker 1: whole place closed down at eleven, and they are estimating

396
00:21:15,080 --> 00:21:17,879
Speaker 1: that their deaths happened between nine thirteen eleven. This is

397
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Speaker 1: when the last customer, legitimate customer left the Wayside cafe.

398
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Speaker 1: So the corner says, and I have a question about this.

399
00:21:25,200 --> 00:21:28,600
Speaker 1: The corner says that they believe Billy was killed instantly,

400
00:21:29,240 --> 00:21:34,320
Speaker 1: but that Nils and Daisy likely survived even up to

401
00:21:34,720 --> 00:21:35,359
Speaker 1: an hour.

402
00:21:35,800 --> 00:21:39,520
Speaker 2: When you see that type of conclusion died instantly, it

403
00:21:39,600 --> 00:21:44,040
Speaker 2: depends on, you know, the anatomy that the bullet passed through.

404
00:21:44,640 --> 00:21:47,920
Speaker 2: So with Billy, if the corner is the pathologist is

405
00:21:48,320 --> 00:21:51,280
Speaker 2: saying died instantly, that tells me that there's a chance

406
00:21:51,320 --> 00:21:53,359
Speaker 2: of that bullet because he got shot through the.

407
00:21:53,240 --> 00:21:55,359
Speaker 1: Nose right to the right of the nose, I believe,

408
00:21:55,480 --> 00:21:56,399
Speaker 1: to the right of his nose.

409
00:21:56,760 --> 00:22:00,800
Speaker 2: Chances are that bullet probably traveled from the front to

410
00:22:00,880 --> 00:22:04,240
Speaker 2: the back and went through the brain stem and that's

411
00:22:04,280 --> 00:22:08,000
Speaker 2: where you get that instantaneous death that the pathologists will

412
00:22:08,000 --> 00:22:08,600
Speaker 2: put out there.

413
00:22:09,119 --> 00:22:14,360
Speaker 4: Now, the pathologist mentions copper sheath slugs with a central

414
00:22:14,560 --> 00:22:17,400
Speaker 4: lead core is that significant at all or is that

415
00:22:17,600 --> 00:22:19,480
Speaker 4: normal for the time period or is it normal?

416
00:22:19,560 --> 00:22:22,960
Speaker 2: Now? That's normal. You know, the copper sheathing, that's what

417
00:22:23,040 --> 00:22:25,639
Speaker 2: today we would just call you know, it's a jacketed bullet,

418
00:22:26,280 --> 00:22:30,840
Speaker 2: and the jacketing is on the outside of the lead core.

419
00:22:30,920 --> 00:22:34,399
Speaker 2: So the lead gives the bullet the mass. The jacketing

420
00:22:34,760 --> 00:22:38,280
Speaker 2: is what the bullet interacts with inside the barrel of

421
00:22:38,280 --> 00:22:41,480
Speaker 2: the gun. So that's where the forensic importance in terms

422
00:22:41,480 --> 00:22:44,240
Speaker 2: of the marks that can be used to identify what

423
00:22:44,520 --> 00:22:46,399
Speaker 2: gun fired, the bullet is going to be on that

424
00:22:46,440 --> 00:22:51,800
Speaker 2: outside jacketing. But the jacketing also provides some ballistic characteristics

425
00:22:51,840 --> 00:22:54,960
Speaker 2: as well as can be used depending on how it's

426
00:22:55,680 --> 00:22:59,280
Speaker 2: formed to enhance the wounding characteristics. You know, if this

427
00:22:59,400 --> 00:23:03,040
Speaker 2: is a hollow point bullet and the tip is lead

428
00:23:03,119 --> 00:23:05,520
Speaker 2: and then you've got the copper jacketing that's kind of

429
00:23:05,560 --> 00:23:09,160
Speaker 2: sunk down. This allows when that bullet impacts the victim's

430
00:23:09,200 --> 00:23:12,760
Speaker 2: body that the bullet expands, it kind of mushrooms out,

431
00:23:13,160 --> 00:23:16,120
Speaker 2: and what that does is it creates a larger wound,

432
00:23:16,359 --> 00:23:19,040
Speaker 2: but it also slows the bullet down, so you don't

433
00:23:19,080 --> 00:23:22,640
Speaker 2: have so much risk of overpenetrating. You know, so you're

434
00:23:22,640 --> 00:23:25,000
Speaker 2: shooting somebody, and if you have like a full metal

435
00:23:25,080 --> 00:23:28,359
Speaker 2: jacket bullet where there's no hollow point, note none of

436
00:23:28,359 --> 00:23:31,800
Speaker 2: that soft lead exposed, that full metal jacketed bullet has

437
00:23:31,840 --> 00:23:34,800
Speaker 2: a greater likelihood of passing through the target or the

438
00:23:34,800 --> 00:23:37,360
Speaker 2: person you're trying to shoot and hit something in the backdrop,

439
00:23:37,520 --> 00:23:40,919
Speaker 2: maybe another person that you weren't intending to shoot. So

440
00:23:40,960 --> 00:23:44,119
Speaker 2: that's why law enforcement typically uses hollow point, because it

441
00:23:44,160 --> 00:23:47,760
Speaker 2: gives greater control over where the bullet's ultimately going to

442
00:23:47,880 --> 00:23:48,240
Speaker 2: end up.

443
00:23:48,520 --> 00:23:51,359
Speaker 1: Well, the family has a theory at least about the

444
00:23:51,480 --> 00:23:54,240
Speaker 1: order of things. I'll be interested to hear what you think.

445
00:23:54,720 --> 00:23:59,760
Speaker 1: What they surmises that the killer came in and caught

446
00:24:00,080 --> 00:24:03,040
Speaker 1: Niels and his step son Billy off guard back in

447
00:24:03,040 --> 00:24:03,520
Speaker 1: the kitchen.

448
00:24:03,640 --> 00:24:04,360
Speaker 4: They're cornered.

449
00:24:04,600 --> 00:24:07,399
Speaker 1: Billy has time to pull out this jackknife out of

450
00:24:07,400 --> 00:24:11,520
Speaker 1: his pocket to try to defend himself, and Billy and

451
00:24:11,760 --> 00:24:15,159
Speaker 1: Nils are killed first. And then in the ruckus, just

452
00:24:15,200 --> 00:24:19,240
Speaker 1: feet away from her bedroom, Daisy comes out is potentially

453
00:24:19,320 --> 00:24:22,480
Speaker 1: shot in the arm. She staggers back onto the bed,

454
00:24:22,520 --> 00:24:24,840
Speaker 1: which is where she's found. No sign of sexual assault

455
00:24:24,920 --> 00:24:27,000
Speaker 1: or anything like that. She staggers back onto the bed.

456
00:24:27,280 --> 00:24:29,800
Speaker 1: She has then shot two more times in the face,

457
00:24:30,359 --> 00:24:33,719
Speaker 1: and this is why they think she died last. And

458
00:24:33,720 --> 00:24:36,439
Speaker 1: this is actually kind of strange, but it's important to

459
00:24:36,480 --> 00:24:39,360
Speaker 1: know that she died last is what the coroner believes.

460
00:24:39,440 --> 00:24:42,000
Speaker 1: So do you think that that sounds pretty valid the

461
00:24:42,160 --> 00:24:44,440
Speaker 1: order of how things went well?

462
00:24:44,640 --> 00:24:47,919
Speaker 2: Just based on victimology. If I'm an offender going into

463
00:24:47,960 --> 00:24:51,080
Speaker 2: this location, who are the biggest threats and it's the

464
00:24:51,080 --> 00:24:53,879
Speaker 2: two men and Billy's the biggest threat. Yeah, you know,

465
00:24:54,040 --> 00:24:57,560
Speaker 2: so he's thirty eight years old. He's probably much more

466
00:24:57,560 --> 00:25:01,760
Speaker 2: physically capable than Nils, who's seventy nine. So the offender

467
00:25:02,000 --> 00:25:05,919
Speaker 2: is going to be doing a risk assessment to himself, going, Okay,

468
00:25:05,960 --> 00:25:07,840
Speaker 2: those are my threats. I need to take them out.

469
00:25:07,920 --> 00:25:09,520
Speaker 2: Billy's pulling a knife.

470
00:25:09,160 --> 00:25:11,600
Speaker 1: And probably coming at him at the same time. That's

471
00:25:11,640 --> 00:25:14,280
Speaker 1: probably the closest contact the offender had to them.

472
00:25:14,560 --> 00:25:17,720
Speaker 2: And I'm curious, of course, is Billy pulling a knife?

473
00:25:18,119 --> 00:25:21,320
Speaker 2: Is their interaction, you know, between the offender and Billy,

474
00:25:21,400 --> 00:25:24,240
Speaker 2: because you know, maybe Billy's a target and Billy recognizes

475
00:25:24,240 --> 00:25:27,640
Speaker 2: who the offender is and that's why the knife is pulled.

476
00:25:28,040 --> 00:25:31,280
Speaker 2: So could Billy have been the target and Nils and Daisy.

477
00:25:31,440 --> 00:25:35,080
Speaker 2: They were witnesses that were eliminated based on victimology, that

478
00:25:35,119 --> 00:25:38,200
Speaker 2: would be my first guess. But of course I want

479
00:25:38,240 --> 00:25:41,680
Speaker 2: to know was anything stolen out of the cash register?

480
00:25:41,960 --> 00:25:44,679
Speaker 2: Was there money taken? You know? Is there a financial

481
00:25:44,720 --> 00:25:48,480
Speaker 2: motive to this crime? And the homicide was really kind

482
00:25:48,480 --> 00:25:49,199
Speaker 2: of secondary.

483
00:25:49,840 --> 00:25:53,320
Speaker 1: Nothing taken, okay, but I do have some interesting pieces

484
00:25:53,320 --> 00:25:55,880
Speaker 1: of information that gives me an opportunity to talk about

485
00:25:55,920 --> 00:25:59,400
Speaker 1: the way I grew up in rural Texas. So of course,

486
00:25:59,400 --> 00:26:02,320
Speaker 1: this is a gas station and a cafe. The sheriff

487
00:26:02,359 --> 00:26:04,400
Speaker 1: when he responds to the scene and secures the scene,

488
00:26:04,400 --> 00:26:06,000
Speaker 1: which it sounds like he did a good job. I'm

489
00:26:06,000 --> 00:26:09,520
Speaker 1: not reading anything about forensics that was tainted. I'm not

490
00:26:09,600 --> 00:26:12,200
Speaker 1: reading about people coming into the crime scene.

491
00:26:11,920 --> 00:26:13,040
Speaker 4: And corrupting it.

492
00:26:13,520 --> 00:26:15,960
Speaker 1: He and the deputy go and they check the pumps

493
00:26:16,000 --> 00:26:18,720
Speaker 1: to see did they have a customer who used their

494
00:26:18,760 --> 00:26:21,680
Speaker 1: gas and registered something at the pump. But then there

495
00:26:21,920 --> 00:26:25,720
Speaker 1: wasn't anything in the cash register, so they had a

496
00:26:25,720 --> 00:26:29,600
Speaker 1: couple of charges that ended up on the gas pumps.

497
00:26:29,680 --> 00:26:32,840
Speaker 1: They went to the register, the money corresponded except for

498
00:26:33,000 --> 00:26:36,919
Speaker 1: one charge, the very last one. Someone pumped six dollars

499
00:26:37,000 --> 00:26:39,160
Speaker 1: worth of gas and when they looked in the.

500
00:26:39,080 --> 00:26:41,760
Speaker 3: Cash register, no cash corresponded.

501
00:26:41,960 --> 00:26:45,080
Speaker 1: Does that make sense to you if they don't see

502
00:26:45,119 --> 00:26:49,399
Speaker 1: anything else missing, You've got someone who it looks like,

503
00:26:49,480 --> 00:26:52,440
Speaker 1: as of right now, as the investigator looks like, didn't pay.

504
00:26:52,920 --> 00:26:56,480
Speaker 2: Yeah. So now imagine, let's say you have somebody who's

505
00:26:56,920 --> 00:27:00,720
Speaker 2: setting himself up to commit this homicide. You know, one

506
00:27:00,720 --> 00:27:02,640
Speaker 2: of these victims as a target, or maybe all three

507
00:27:02,680 --> 00:27:06,320
Speaker 2: victims were a target. So the ruse is to look

508
00:27:06,400 --> 00:27:08,880
Speaker 2: like a customer and then you know, you pump gas,

509
00:27:09,160 --> 00:27:12,600
Speaker 2: go into the store, everybody's guards are down, and then

510
00:27:12,680 --> 00:27:15,480
Speaker 2: the gun is pulled. But I also wonder, do you

511
00:27:15,640 --> 00:27:19,680
Speaker 2: have a customer that pumped gas when the offender completely

512
00:27:19,720 --> 00:27:22,359
Speaker 2: separate walks in and then all of a sudden, shots

513
00:27:22,440 --> 00:27:25,320
Speaker 2: ring out, and that customer is like, I'm out of here. Yeap,

514
00:27:25,520 --> 00:27:27,760
Speaker 2: you know, And that's a witness, you know, that's somebody

515
00:27:27,760 --> 00:27:30,520
Speaker 2: that you would want to track down because they possibly

516
00:27:30,640 --> 00:27:33,119
Speaker 2: saw who the offender was, at least a description of

517
00:27:33,119 --> 00:27:35,280
Speaker 2: a vehicle, a description of what the offender or how

518
00:27:35,320 --> 00:27:37,560
Speaker 2: many offenders, you know, what the offender looked like, what

519
00:27:37,600 --> 00:27:40,880
Speaker 2: they heard was there an argument? So there's that. So

520
00:27:40,920 --> 00:27:43,640
Speaker 2: that's part of what the sheriff and his deputy need

521
00:27:43,720 --> 00:27:46,960
Speaker 2: to tease out as to Okay, who and why is

522
00:27:47,000 --> 00:27:49,480
Speaker 2: pumping gas for what was it? Six dollars?

523
00:27:49,680 --> 00:27:53,720
Speaker 1: Yeah, six dollars, which was not inexpensive in nineteen sixty three.

524
00:27:54,280 --> 00:27:56,920
Speaker 1: So this is what's so interesting about being a small

525
00:27:56,960 --> 00:28:00,159
Speaker 1: town sheriff who understands the way the economy works in

526
00:28:00,200 --> 00:28:03,600
Speaker 1: a little place like this. What he discovered was something

527
00:28:03,640 --> 00:28:06,040
Speaker 1: that I had grown up with, which is I'll just

528
00:28:06,040 --> 00:28:08,200
Speaker 1: tell you the little backstory. So I grew up in

529
00:28:08,240 --> 00:28:10,840
Speaker 1: a tiny, tiny town. My parents were divorced when I

530
00:28:10,920 --> 00:28:13,560
Speaker 1: was seven, and so I split my time between my

531
00:28:13,640 --> 00:28:17,080
Speaker 1: dad's horse ranch and my mom's place in Austin. And

532
00:28:17,080 --> 00:28:19,000
Speaker 1: at my dad's horse ranch, we were in a town

533
00:28:19,040 --> 00:28:22,240
Speaker 1: of literally one hundred people, and there was a little

534
00:28:22,280 --> 00:28:26,400
Speaker 1: general store where I would go and we would order hamburgers.

535
00:28:26,480 --> 00:28:29,159
Speaker 1: It sounded actually very much like waistside cafe. It doubled

536
00:28:29,200 --> 00:28:32,960
Speaker 1: as an upholstery shop. Also you could get groceries. I

537
00:28:33,160 --> 00:28:37,720
Speaker 1: never saw my father pay a dime to the people

538
00:28:37,720 --> 00:28:40,600
Speaker 1: who owned this grocery store because we would go, we

539
00:28:40,600 --> 00:28:43,080
Speaker 1: would order food, we would take groceries, and they would

540
00:28:43,120 --> 00:28:45,800
Speaker 1: just shot his name in the amount down in their ledger,

541
00:28:46,080 --> 00:28:48,400
Speaker 1: and my dad would just pay with a check once

542
00:28:48,440 --> 00:28:51,640
Speaker 1: a month. That's what happened here, Okay. The person who

543
00:28:51,680 --> 00:28:54,560
Speaker 1: paid the six dollars had paid in the ledger. This

544
00:28:54,680 --> 00:28:57,840
Speaker 1: was a very common practice with their business and with

545
00:28:57,880 --> 00:29:00,000
Speaker 1: a lot of small towns that people were so trusted

546
00:29:00,120 --> 00:29:02,480
Speaker 1: did they just pay on credit essentially, and then they

547
00:29:02,480 --> 00:29:05,560
Speaker 1: would just settle up once a month. So that person

548
00:29:05,560 --> 00:29:08,239
Speaker 1: who could have been a potential witness was dismissed at

549
00:29:08,240 --> 00:29:11,600
Speaker 1: that point because they were now able to say nothing

550
00:29:11,680 --> 00:29:15,520
Speaker 1: was missing. Daisy's purse wasn't missing, no jewelry was missing,

551
00:29:15,880 --> 00:29:18,240
Speaker 1: Billy had money on him, none of that stuff was missing.

552
00:29:18,480 --> 00:29:21,440
Speaker 2: So initially they're thinking, oh, there was a customer that

553
00:29:21,480 --> 00:29:24,080
Speaker 2: didn't pay six dollars, but then they checked the ledger

554
00:29:24,200 --> 00:29:26,240
Speaker 2: and it's like, oh, this is what's going on. Yep,

555
00:29:26,360 --> 00:29:29,560
Speaker 2: got it. Okay, So at this point there doesn't appear

556
00:29:29,600 --> 00:29:32,760
Speaker 2: to be any money missing, no stolen property from the premises.

557
00:29:33,160 --> 00:29:36,239
Speaker 2: So this looks like the homicide was the intent. At

558
00:29:36,320 --> 00:29:39,560
Speaker 2: least there was. The intent was to confront the victims,

559
00:29:39,800 --> 00:29:43,040
Speaker 2: and then it turned into a homicide and the offender

560
00:29:43,120 --> 00:29:47,040
Speaker 2: brought a gun to this location, so was homicide the

561
00:29:47,400 --> 00:29:51,200
Speaker 2: original motive or did this escalate to homicide because maybe

562
00:29:51,280 --> 00:29:53,520
Speaker 2: Billy's interactions Billy resisted.

563
00:30:04,040 --> 00:30:07,440
Speaker 1: Hey, Paul, I had some downtime recently and I finally

564
00:30:07,440 --> 00:30:09,600
Speaker 1: got to hear you on Small Town Dix.

565
00:30:10,160 --> 00:30:11,160
Speaker 4: What a great show.

566
00:30:11,320 --> 00:30:14,400
Speaker 1: I forgive you for cheating on me with another podcast.

567
00:30:14,720 --> 00:30:16,760
Speaker 1: It took a moment and I realized how nice it

568
00:30:16,840 --> 00:30:18,800
Speaker 1: was to hear you with the voice of Lisa Simpson.

569
00:30:19,200 --> 00:30:21,040
Speaker 1: Tell me a little bit about the show and the

570
00:30:21,080 --> 00:30:23,440
Speaker 1: audience in case anybody hasn't heard it yet.

571
00:30:23,240 --> 00:30:28,240
Speaker 2: Small Town Dix. I actually met them almost four years ago.

572
00:30:28,760 --> 00:30:31,640
Speaker 2: To be frank, I didn't know who Yardley Smith was,

573
00:30:31,720 --> 00:30:33,600
Speaker 2: you know, but she is the voice of Lisa's Simpson.

574
00:30:33,880 --> 00:30:36,920
Speaker 2: I didn't know. She interviewed me on stage. And then

575
00:30:37,200 --> 00:30:39,680
Speaker 2: the two brothers who are law enforcement or former law

576
00:30:39,720 --> 00:30:42,640
Speaker 2: enforcement now Detective Danny Detective Dave. So you know, part

577
00:30:42,640 --> 00:30:46,560
Speaker 2: of it is the law enforcement connection, shared experiences. We

578
00:30:46,920 --> 00:30:49,640
Speaker 2: just generally just hit it off as people, and I'd

579
00:30:49,680 --> 00:30:53,120
Speaker 2: recorded with them several times over the years, and then

580
00:30:53,280 --> 00:30:55,840
Speaker 2: they approached me to join the team, which of course

581
00:30:55,880 --> 00:30:58,080
Speaker 2: I jumped at because it's just such a good fit.

582
00:30:58,760 --> 00:31:03,320
Speaker 2: And this is a podcast in which we are either

583
00:31:03,360 --> 00:31:06,760
Speaker 2: telling stories of the cases that we've personally been involved with,

584
00:31:07,520 --> 00:31:12,800
Speaker 2: or more frequently, interviewing investigators who have cases that we

585
00:31:12,880 --> 00:31:16,480
Speaker 2: talk about. And typically the cases are anonymised as to

586
00:31:16,560 --> 00:31:20,480
Speaker 2: where they occurred. The victims, suspects names are changed, but

587
00:31:20,560 --> 00:31:23,760
Speaker 2: the circumstances of the case are being told, and you know,

588
00:31:23,840 --> 00:31:26,880
Speaker 2: they have their own experiences. They you know, I never

589
00:31:26,920 --> 00:31:30,400
Speaker 2: worked patrol. They worked patrol, They worked as detectives in

590
00:31:30,440 --> 00:31:34,360
Speaker 2: different capacities. Dave was a child abuse of investigator. Dan

591
00:31:34,680 --> 00:31:38,239
Speaker 2: you know, he worked narcs, he worked burglary, you know.

592
00:31:38,240 --> 00:31:43,440
Speaker 2: And of course me and my background which is predominantly homicide, CSI, forensics,

593
00:31:43,520 --> 00:31:46,520
Speaker 2: the behavioral side. And so it's an interesting podcast for sure,

594
00:31:46,640 --> 00:31:48,640
Speaker 2: you know. So, yes, I have been cheating on you,

595
00:31:48,760 --> 00:31:51,840
Speaker 2: k type I really I was hoping that you would

596
00:31:51,840 --> 00:31:53,120
Speaker 2: never notice that the.

597
00:31:53,160 --> 00:31:58,560
Speaker 1: Simpson check out Paul on the latest season of Small

598
00:31:58,600 --> 00:32:06,760
Speaker 1: Town Dicks wherever you listen to podcasts. So the sheriff

599
00:32:06,800 --> 00:32:09,560
Speaker 1: goes out and of course canvases and talks to everybody

600
00:32:09,560 --> 00:32:12,400
Speaker 1: in this small area and finds out that there were

601
00:32:12,400 --> 00:32:15,479
Speaker 1: customers in and out all night up until about nine

602
00:32:15,640 --> 00:32:18,200
Speaker 1: thirty when the last customer left. So there was a

603
00:32:18,240 --> 00:32:20,800
Speaker 1: man who came at eight fifty, and remember this is

604
00:32:20,840 --> 00:32:22,560
Speaker 1: a shop that stays open till eleven.

605
00:32:23,000 --> 00:32:25,720
Speaker 3: He comes at eight fifty. He says, business as usual.

606
00:32:26,000 --> 00:32:29,200
Speaker 1: The ex wife, who lives very very close by, says

607
00:32:29,360 --> 00:32:32,360
Speaker 1: that the cafe lights were on all night long, which

608
00:32:32,440 --> 00:32:33,880
Speaker 1: wasn't particularly unusual.

609
00:32:33,960 --> 00:32:35,000
Speaker 4: Sometimes they worked.

610
00:32:34,840 --> 00:32:37,160
Speaker 1: Very very late, they did the books, they opened up

611
00:32:37,200 --> 00:32:39,600
Speaker 1: really early. I think the sheriff felt like this was

612
00:32:39,640 --> 00:32:43,720
Speaker 1: somebody who obviously knew the hours of this cafe, because

613
00:32:43,960 --> 00:32:45,800
Speaker 1: for them to be able to go in while it

614
00:32:45,880 --> 00:32:48,640
Speaker 1: was still open and feeling confident that no one else

615
00:32:48,680 --> 00:32:51,680
Speaker 1: would come in and do this. I just get confused

616
00:32:51,880 --> 00:32:55,520
Speaker 1: about whether this was premeditated or not. It seems pretty

617
00:32:55,560 --> 00:32:58,680
Speaker 1: risky to go into a business where people are showing

618
00:32:58,760 --> 00:33:02,200
Speaker 1: up up to thirty minutes before you've killed someone, and

619
00:33:02,240 --> 00:33:05,720
Speaker 1: they've obviously brought a gun. But is this an argument

620
00:33:05,800 --> 00:33:08,800
Speaker 1: that was sparked and then you know all of this happened.

621
00:33:09,280 --> 00:33:11,920
Speaker 1: So I still haven't sorted out whether this is premeditated

622
00:33:12,000 --> 00:33:14,600
Speaker 1: or not, and maybe you don't have enough information yet

623
00:33:14,600 --> 00:33:15,640
Speaker 1: to even speculate.

624
00:33:16,080 --> 00:33:18,680
Speaker 2: That's where you know, you can have a circumstance where yes,

625
00:33:18,720 --> 00:33:25,040
Speaker 2: the offender knows this cafe understands the customer flow and

626
00:33:25,080 --> 00:33:28,000
Speaker 2: it's confident going in that they could commit this homicide

627
00:33:28,000 --> 00:33:30,440
Speaker 2: and leave without being seen. That would suggest that the

628
00:33:30,440 --> 00:33:34,240
Speaker 2: offender has local knowledge or has taken the time to

629
00:33:34,560 --> 00:33:38,000
Speaker 2: really kind of watch this business location get a feel

630
00:33:38,080 --> 00:33:41,520
Speaker 2: for what they can do to accomplish this crime in

631
00:33:41,600 --> 00:33:44,120
Speaker 2: terms of timing. But it may be a situation to

632
00:33:44,160 --> 00:33:47,400
Speaker 2: where the offender is in there. You mentioned Billy, possibly

633
00:33:47,640 --> 00:33:50,680
Speaker 2: the family saying maybe had like a gambling problem. Maybe

634
00:33:50,720 --> 00:33:54,520
Speaker 2: you have somebody who's there to collect gambling debt, and

635
00:33:54,600 --> 00:33:59,240
Speaker 2: when this kind of escalates, the offender is looking around going, Okay,

636
00:33:59,360 --> 00:34:02,120
Speaker 2: nobody's here, and I'm going to send a message, you know,

637
00:34:02,280 --> 00:34:04,920
Speaker 2: to my other customers that you can't get away with

638
00:34:04,960 --> 00:34:08,160
Speaker 2: not paying your debt. It takes out Billy. It's so

639
00:34:08,400 --> 00:34:11,080
Speaker 2: hard with the information provided to be able to say

640
00:34:11,239 --> 00:34:15,240
Speaker 2: is this premeditated or not. It's just fundamentally, the offender

641
00:34:15,360 --> 00:34:18,680
Speaker 2: brought a gun. If Billy was the intended target. The

642
00:34:18,760 --> 00:34:22,840
Speaker 2: offender took the time to eliminate the other witnesses.

643
00:34:22,600 --> 00:34:24,840
Speaker 4: So this could be professional in your eyes.

644
00:34:24,960 --> 00:34:27,040
Speaker 1: Even though they're sort of on the side of the

645
00:34:27,080 --> 00:34:29,640
Speaker 1: nose and hit in the arm, this still seems like

646
00:34:29,680 --> 00:34:30,160
Speaker 1: this could be.

647
00:34:30,160 --> 00:34:30,839
Speaker 4: A hired hit.

648
00:34:31,040 --> 00:34:33,719
Speaker 2: Well, I wouldn't eliminate that. In terms of the gun

649
00:34:33,760 --> 00:34:38,359
Speaker 2: shot patterns during a shooting, these are very dynamic. It's

650
00:34:38,400 --> 00:34:41,520
Speaker 2: not like the shooter is just shooting at a static target.

651
00:34:41,680 --> 00:34:45,640
Speaker 2: You know. When gun shots start to ring out, people move,

652
00:34:46,440 --> 00:34:49,440
Speaker 2: you know. And for this offender to be able to

653
00:34:50,040 --> 00:34:54,080
Speaker 2: hit all three victims at least each of them once

654
00:34:54,120 --> 00:34:58,040
Speaker 2: in the head, that does suggest a level of firearms proficiency.

655
00:34:58,120 --> 00:35:01,520
Speaker 2: So this maybe, let's say somebody who has been you know,

656
00:35:01,800 --> 00:35:05,319
Speaker 2: if this is an enforcer for this gambling aspect that

657
00:35:05,360 --> 00:35:08,239
Speaker 2: Billy was involved with, then possibly this person is a

658
00:35:08,640 --> 00:35:10,880
Speaker 2: very serious threat with the gun.

659
00:35:11,320 --> 00:35:15,480
Speaker 1: Okay, So let's talk about potential other suspects. So the

660
00:35:15,520 --> 00:35:18,799
Speaker 1: first real lead they get is a delivery man who

661
00:35:19,239 --> 00:35:21,640
Speaker 1: came to drop off a beer order the night of

662
00:35:21,640 --> 00:35:24,680
Speaker 1: the murders. Yet again, people who knew them and knew

663
00:35:24,680 --> 00:35:27,640
Speaker 1: anything about running a cafe, knew that there were people

664
00:35:27,640 --> 00:35:30,640
Speaker 1: coming all the time. This man came at night to

665
00:35:30,800 --> 00:35:32,680
Speaker 1: drop off a beer order, and this is not a

666
00:35:32,680 --> 00:35:35,680
Speaker 1: suspect because there were customers there at the time who

667
00:35:35,719 --> 00:35:39,080
Speaker 1: saw him come in and then leave. He says he

668
00:35:39,120 --> 00:35:41,480
Speaker 1: took note of three people in the cafe that gave

669
00:35:41,560 --> 00:35:44,600
Speaker 1: him this unsettling feeling that they were just sort of

670
00:35:44,760 --> 00:35:48,920
Speaker 1: killing time and waiting for him to leave, and they

671
00:35:48,960 --> 00:35:52,360
Speaker 1: made him a little bit nervous. And this reminded me

672
00:35:52,840 --> 00:35:55,120
Speaker 1: a little bit of the yogurt chop murders, which are

673
00:35:55,239 --> 00:35:58,440
Speaker 1: very famous, you know here in Austin, of the young

674
00:35:58,480 --> 00:36:01,440
Speaker 1: girls who were murdered. And I was in high school here,

675
00:36:02,000 --> 00:36:05,840
Speaker 1: and the latest lead had been that there were a

676
00:36:05,880 --> 00:36:09,439
Speaker 1: couple of people in the yogurt shop sitting there at

677
00:36:09,440 --> 00:36:11,840
Speaker 1: the time of the closing, which is when the murders

678
00:36:11,880 --> 00:36:15,040
Speaker 1: happened with these young women or these girls. So it

679
00:36:15,160 --> 00:36:18,239
Speaker 1: reminded me of that customers there waiting for things to

680
00:36:18,280 --> 00:36:21,879
Speaker 1: close up, waiting for people to leave, and then striking.

681
00:36:22,000 --> 00:36:24,160
Speaker 1: And this is what the sheriff is most interested in

682
00:36:24,480 --> 00:36:25,040
Speaker 1: right now.

683
00:36:25,480 --> 00:36:28,040
Speaker 2: Well, first, yeah, you have to identify those customers. But

684
00:36:28,160 --> 00:36:31,960
Speaker 2: then those customers, if they are there with the intent

685
00:36:32,360 --> 00:36:36,200
Speaker 2: to commit a crime, they are exposing themselves to all

686
00:36:36,239 --> 00:36:39,600
Speaker 2: these witnesses. You know, this is now suggesting to me, well,

687
00:36:39,960 --> 00:36:44,720
Speaker 2: this isn't a very well thought out planned homicide, because

688
00:36:44,920 --> 00:36:48,279
Speaker 2: now you have many witnesses that could possibly say they

689
00:36:48,360 --> 00:36:52,600
Speaker 2: were in the cafe that would almost suggest that maybe

690
00:36:52,680 --> 00:36:55,640
Speaker 2: it wasn't premeditated. They were just waiting for a period

691
00:36:55,680 --> 00:36:58,160
Speaker 2: of time in order to confront the victims, and then

692
00:36:58,280 --> 00:36:59,600
Speaker 2: things escalated from there.

693
00:37:00,000 --> 00:37:02,600
Speaker 1: And what's interesting about the wayside is there were people

694
00:37:02,960 --> 00:37:05,480
Speaker 1: not just in and out of the cafe, but living nearby.

695
00:37:05,680 --> 00:37:08,799
Speaker 1: Billy's ex wife was right there with his kids. So

696
00:37:09,160 --> 00:37:12,800
Speaker 1: this was, yes, a rural area in general, but where

697
00:37:12,840 --> 00:37:15,680
Speaker 1: they were, there were people around. So you're talking about

698
00:37:15,680 --> 00:37:20,280
Speaker 1: someone who killed three people and then exited and nobody

699
00:37:20,360 --> 00:37:24,160
Speaker 1: heard anything out of the ordinary in a space where

700
00:37:24,440 --> 00:37:26,799
Speaker 1: when you think a gun a thirty two caliber would

701
00:37:26,800 --> 00:37:28,640
Speaker 1: have made I know you told me this before, but

702
00:37:28,719 --> 00:37:31,040
Speaker 1: what's the kind of on a level of one to ten,

703
00:37:31,280 --> 00:37:32,920
Speaker 1: this is certainly not a shotgun blast.

704
00:37:33,120 --> 00:37:34,319
Speaker 4: How loud would this have been?

705
00:37:34,640 --> 00:37:38,799
Speaker 2: Well, firearms are loud when you shoot a firearm, whether

706
00:37:38,800 --> 00:37:42,279
Speaker 2: it be a twenty five, you know caliber, you know,

707
00:37:42,320 --> 00:37:45,200
Speaker 2: all the way up until your your real powerful weapons,

708
00:37:45,200 --> 00:37:48,080
Speaker 2: like you're forty four. They're not quiet, and you have

709
00:37:48,160 --> 00:37:50,719
Speaker 2: six shots that are fired out of this gun, right,

710
00:37:51,520 --> 00:37:54,920
Speaker 2: But how many shootings I'm thinking, there's so many shootings

711
00:37:54,920 --> 00:37:57,720
Speaker 2: that I've responded out to where many shots are fired

712
00:37:58,160 --> 00:38:01,840
Speaker 2: and neighbors don't hear a thing, or they misinterpret what

713
00:38:01,920 --> 00:38:05,640
Speaker 2: they hear. Right, This is in like modern residential areas,

714
00:38:05,760 --> 00:38:07,680
Speaker 2: you know, where you have the houses right next to

715
00:38:07,719 --> 00:38:10,080
Speaker 2: each other. But sometimes you know, doors are closed, windows

716
00:38:10,080 --> 00:38:13,359
Speaker 2: are closed, et cetera. So it muffles the sound that

717
00:38:13,440 --> 00:38:16,960
Speaker 2: the witnesses here. Here. With the wayside cafe and the

718
00:38:16,960 --> 00:38:19,279
Speaker 2: picture that you showed me, it looks like it's a

719
00:38:19,360 --> 00:38:24,920
Speaker 2: relatively isolated building and these gunshots are inside that, you know,

720
00:38:25,040 --> 00:38:27,840
Speaker 2: So if the doors closed, windows are closed, sounds on

721
00:38:27,880 --> 00:38:29,240
Speaker 2: the outside will be muffled.

722
00:38:29,480 --> 00:38:31,880
Speaker 1: And it's January, so everything would have been closed up

723
00:38:31,880 --> 00:38:32,800
Speaker 1: because it's so cold.

724
00:38:33,160 --> 00:38:35,080
Speaker 2: That's a good point for sure, and any of the

725
00:38:35,160 --> 00:38:38,480
Speaker 2: nearby residences are also going to be closed up.

726
00:38:38,719 --> 00:38:42,160
Speaker 1: Well, let's talk about these three mysterious people who seemed

727
00:38:42,280 --> 00:38:46,360
Speaker 1: menacing to the beer delivery man. They approached the sheriff

728
00:38:46,440 --> 00:38:48,360
Speaker 1: after they read about the story and said, you know,

729
00:38:48,400 --> 00:38:49,080
Speaker 1: we're witnesses.

730
00:38:49,120 --> 00:38:51,280
Speaker 4: We were there. Nothing seemed out of the ordinary.

731
00:38:51,800 --> 00:38:54,879
Speaker 1: What they were waiting on for so long was they

732
00:38:54,920 --> 00:38:57,600
Speaker 1: had been coming through town in their tire blue and

733
00:38:57,640 --> 00:39:00,880
Speaker 1: they were waiting for the mechanic, and it was getting

734
00:39:00,920 --> 00:39:03,000
Speaker 1: later and later, and they were getting frustrated. They were

735
00:39:03,040 --> 00:39:05,160
Speaker 1: waiting for the mechanic to fix their tire, and he

736
00:39:05,200 --> 00:39:07,560
Speaker 1: backed up their story. He said, yeah, they were here,

737
00:39:07,600 --> 00:39:09,799
Speaker 1: and I sent them on their way and that was that.

738
00:39:10,239 --> 00:39:11,439
Speaker 4: So the sheriff cleared them.

739
00:39:11,640 --> 00:39:14,279
Speaker 1: He was even able to, I believe, track down where

740
00:39:14,360 --> 00:39:15,600
Speaker 1: their ultimate destination.

741
00:39:15,880 --> 00:39:18,480
Speaker 3: So this was another dead end for the sheriff.

742
00:39:18,920 --> 00:39:21,160
Speaker 2: So now we're back to square one.

743
00:39:21,600 --> 00:39:25,320
Speaker 1: Yep, to somebody who knew their schedule, a pretty ballsy

744
00:39:25,360 --> 00:39:28,880
Speaker 1: move going in and killing these three people. Sounds like

745
00:39:28,920 --> 00:39:31,960
Speaker 1: Billy was the target, or at least he was the closest.

746
00:39:32,000 --> 00:39:34,239
Speaker 1: He was the aggressor. It's the most accurate shot. It

747
00:39:34,280 --> 00:39:37,759
Speaker 1: sounds like to Billy. We'll talk about the investigation. This

748
00:39:38,080 --> 00:39:40,840
Speaker 1: sheriff did his job very well. It sounds like canvassed

749
00:39:41,040 --> 00:39:45,160
Speaker 1: the whole area. He interviewed everybody within It sounds like

750
00:39:45,160 --> 00:39:47,839
Speaker 1: a thirty to fifty mile radius. Just doing the best

751
00:39:47,880 --> 00:39:50,040
Speaker 1: he can to get this family some kind of closure.

752
00:39:50,360 --> 00:39:52,239
Speaker 1: And of course the people in the area, in this

753
00:39:52,320 --> 00:39:56,359
Speaker 1: small town were scared that somebody was coming into these businesses.

754
00:39:56,840 --> 00:39:59,840
Speaker 1: Nobody was sure whether this was connected directly to the family.

755
00:40:00,520 --> 00:40:04,520
Speaker 1: I think the sheriff was feeling confident though it sounds

756
00:40:04,640 --> 00:40:07,760
Speaker 1: like this was a little closer to home than we think.

757
00:40:07,960 --> 00:40:10,000
Speaker 1: And this is where things get a little twisty with

758
00:40:10,040 --> 00:40:14,200
Speaker 1: the family. Billy had not just one, but two ex wives,

759
00:40:14,239 --> 00:40:18,560
Speaker 1: and Billy had some big It sounds like gambling problems

760
00:40:18,800 --> 00:40:22,160
Speaker 1: stemming from Nevada. The family, despite the fact that this

761
00:40:22,280 --> 00:40:25,759
Speaker 1: man was terribly murdered, has kind of uniformly said he

762
00:40:25,960 --> 00:40:29,239
Speaker 1: was a terrible person, and they think that this was

763
00:40:29,280 --> 00:40:32,240
Speaker 1: the motive for murder, that this was not a good person,

764
00:40:32,719 --> 00:40:37,279
Speaker 1: that potentially someone very close to him wanted to take

765
00:40:37,320 --> 00:40:42,799
Speaker 1: out their anger on him. And the suspect comes up

766
00:40:42,960 --> 00:40:46,719
Speaker 1: as potentially one of the two ex wives or the

767
00:40:46,760 --> 00:40:49,880
Speaker 1: people that they were involved with at the time. What

768
00:40:49,960 --> 00:40:52,440
Speaker 1: do you think about that, either as a woman being

769
00:40:52,480 --> 00:40:54,239
Speaker 1: the perpetrator in this sense.

770
00:40:54,520 --> 00:40:59,200
Speaker 2: Well, this is fundamental in terms of motive. You have

771
00:41:00,080 --> 00:41:04,160
Speaker 2: relationships that have gone sideways. I think you told me

772
00:41:04,280 --> 00:41:07,359
Speaker 2: early on that earlier that day, wasn't he supposed to

773
00:41:07,440 --> 00:41:10,040
Speaker 2: meet with one of his ex wives and children.

774
00:41:10,440 --> 00:41:13,319
Speaker 1: Yeah, the ex wife lived right next door, So this

775
00:41:13,360 --> 00:41:17,320
Speaker 1: is potentially someone who says she didn't hear anything and.

776
00:41:17,360 --> 00:41:20,000
Speaker 3: Could have slipped out very easily if she were involved

777
00:41:20,040 --> 00:41:20,200
Speaker 3: with this.

778
00:41:20,760 --> 00:41:24,759
Speaker 2: Does the sheriff interview her about the interactions that she

779
00:41:25,040 --> 00:41:27,520
Speaker 2: had with Billy earlier that day.

780
00:41:27,760 --> 00:41:28,680
Speaker 4: I believe he does.

781
00:41:29,120 --> 00:41:31,719
Speaker 1: I mean, I think everybody has been interviewed, and this

782
00:41:31,760 --> 00:41:35,680
Speaker 1: did not set alarm bells for the sheriff. I think

783
00:41:35,719 --> 00:41:38,160
Speaker 1: that he just hit a dead end and people found

784
00:41:38,200 --> 00:41:40,439
Speaker 1: it very hard to believe that a family member would

785
00:41:40,480 --> 00:41:42,640
Speaker 1: do this. And so this is where things get even

786
00:41:42,640 --> 00:41:45,439
Speaker 1: a little weirder and stickier. There are a couple of things,

787
00:41:45,560 --> 00:41:47,480
Speaker 1: of course I haven't told you. So this is a

788
00:41:47,520 --> 00:41:49,040
Speaker 1: note from one of the men who talked to me.

789
00:41:49,160 --> 00:41:51,879
Speaker 1: This is from someone who had talked to family members

790
00:41:51,920 --> 00:41:54,080
Speaker 1: who were alive when this happened, and we're at the

791
00:41:54,120 --> 00:41:56,520
Speaker 1: scene that we're living next door. I talked to many

792
00:41:56,520 --> 00:42:01,600
Speaker 1: people in and out of my family. Billy was called shiftless, shady, untrustworthy,

793
00:42:01,719 --> 00:42:05,360
Speaker 1: and lazy. Every person believes in the end that Billy

794
00:42:05,480 --> 00:42:08,000
Speaker 1: was the target at the end, and Neil's and Daisy

795
00:42:08,000 --> 00:42:10,960
Speaker 1: were collateral damage. I could not find one single person

796
00:42:11,000 --> 00:42:13,439
Speaker 1: who spoke highly of Billy. I had a lady who

797
00:42:13,440 --> 00:42:16,160
Speaker 1: lived on the property and knew all of them. She

798
00:42:16,520 --> 00:42:18,719
Speaker 1: was gone when the murders occurred, but when we talked

799
00:42:18,719 --> 00:42:21,000
Speaker 1: about what happened. She said it had to have been

800
00:42:21,040 --> 00:42:23,799
Speaker 1: about Billy. She has no idea why anybody would kill

801
00:42:23,880 --> 00:42:27,520
Speaker 1: a sweet old couple, but she said nobody felt sadness

802
00:42:27,640 --> 00:42:30,560
Speaker 1: for him being killed. It seems like obviously he's the

803
00:42:30,760 --> 00:42:33,719
Speaker 1: likely target. We don't know why, but I do have

804
00:42:33,800 --> 00:42:36,080
Speaker 1: a theory once I hear what you're talking about.

805
00:42:36,280 --> 00:42:38,880
Speaker 2: Well, you know, victimology is huge, and so this is

806
00:42:38,920 --> 00:42:42,439
Speaker 2: assessing the three victims. And most certainly with what you've

807
00:42:42,440 --> 00:42:45,120
Speaker 2: told me, you know, Nil's and Daisy, they do not

808
00:42:45,239 --> 00:42:48,120
Speaker 2: appear that they would have any enemies that would come

809
00:42:48,160 --> 00:42:50,160
Speaker 2: and commit to this level of violence, you know, take

810
00:42:50,160 --> 00:42:53,880
Speaker 2: their lives. Billy has all the red flags going off.

811
00:42:54,080 --> 00:42:59,160
Speaker 2: So part of the early stages of this investigation, as

812
00:42:59,160 --> 00:43:02,760
Speaker 2: information is being gathered, Billy starts to stand out as

813
00:43:03,080 --> 00:43:06,240
Speaker 2: the reason for the homicide. And so now it's really

814
00:43:06,320 --> 00:43:10,120
Speaker 2: kind of especially with the limited resources of the Sheriff's office,

815
00:43:10,480 --> 00:43:16,520
Speaker 2: it's focusing the attention on Billy's social circles, Billy's last

816
00:43:16,840 --> 00:43:20,640
Speaker 2: seventy two hours. Oftentimes people make the decision to kill

817
00:43:20,680 --> 00:43:23,800
Speaker 2: within seventy two hours of the homicide, you know, so

818
00:43:24,000 --> 00:43:28,000
Speaker 2: really timelining Billy's days out the three days prior to

819
00:43:28,040 --> 00:43:32,359
Speaker 2: see what's going on. But you cannot tunnel vision that

820
00:43:32,560 --> 00:43:36,479
Speaker 2: Billy is the reason these homicides occurred. There are other

821
00:43:36,640 --> 00:43:40,520
Speaker 2: possibilities that seem less likely. You know. One could be

822
00:43:40,680 --> 00:43:43,120
Speaker 2: that you did have what was going to be a robbery.

823
00:43:43,520 --> 00:43:47,960
Speaker 2: Robber goes in and is not anticipating Billy's there, and

824
00:43:48,080 --> 00:43:51,560
Speaker 2: now he's got three victims, he shoots and runs off,

825
00:43:51,800 --> 00:43:54,919
Speaker 2: has no relationship to the victims at all. Was there

826
00:43:54,960 --> 00:43:57,680
Speaker 2: for financial motive, but then it escalated to where he

827
00:43:57,719 --> 00:43:59,920
Speaker 2: had to shoot and kill. And now you've got, in essence,

828
00:44:00,320 --> 00:44:03,839
Speaker 2: an unknown offender, a stranger to the victims, who's in

829
00:44:03,880 --> 00:44:07,040
Speaker 2: the wind, and especially in nineteen sixty three, this is

830
00:44:07,040 --> 00:44:09,600
Speaker 2: going to be a very very difficult case to solve.

831
00:44:10,320 --> 00:44:12,560
Speaker 2: So that would be a possibility that I always have

832
00:44:12,640 --> 00:44:15,800
Speaker 2: to keep tucked into, like the opposite extreme. One extreme

833
00:44:15,920 --> 00:44:18,760
Speaker 2: is Billy as a target, and the answer is with Billy.

834
00:44:19,040 --> 00:44:22,239
Speaker 2: The other extreme is this was a random crime and

835
00:44:22,280 --> 00:44:25,040
Speaker 2: there's no connection to the location or the victims. Between

836
00:44:25,080 --> 00:44:27,000
Speaker 2: the shooter and this case.

837
00:44:27,360 --> 00:44:30,480
Speaker 1: If this is a random crime or a hit, because

838
00:44:30,560 --> 00:44:34,600
Speaker 1: Billy has crossed the wrong people in Nevada, why kill

839
00:44:34,960 --> 00:44:38,080
Speaker 1: an elderly couple? If they can't identify you, Why not

840
00:44:38,320 --> 00:44:41,520
Speaker 1: kill the threat and then take off and run.

841
00:44:41,640 --> 00:44:42,720
Speaker 4: Why kill this couple?

842
00:44:43,200 --> 00:44:45,359
Speaker 2: Well you don't know, they can't as a shooter. Now

843
00:44:45,360 --> 00:44:49,239
Speaker 2: you have to be in the shooter's mindset. Is now

844
00:44:49,320 --> 00:44:53,080
Speaker 2: you have three adults that are seeing you, even if

845
00:44:53,080 --> 00:44:56,880
Speaker 2: they don't know who you are, they have now collected

846
00:44:57,080 --> 00:44:59,960
Speaker 2: data on you that can be passed on to authority

847
00:45:00,160 --> 00:45:02,520
Speaker 2: that could eventually cause the case to be solved and

848
00:45:02,560 --> 00:45:05,759
Speaker 2: you being arrested. So this is where these offenders will

849
00:45:05,800 --> 00:45:10,120
Speaker 2: just eliminate all witnesses when they get that opportunity, because

850
00:45:10,160 --> 00:45:13,360
Speaker 2: that way they don't have that information being passed on.

851
00:45:13,719 --> 00:45:16,880
Speaker 1: Well, it's funny you had just mentioned a financial motive,

852
00:45:16,960 --> 00:45:19,360
Speaker 1: because this is the part of what I've been withholding

853
00:45:19,400 --> 00:45:20,960
Speaker 1: from you because I do that every.

854
00:45:20,800 --> 00:45:22,000
Speaker 4: Single time here we go.

855
00:45:22,960 --> 00:45:24,560
Speaker 1: I'm going to get that printed on a T shirt

856
00:45:24,640 --> 00:45:28,600
Speaker 1: here we go. So here is an interesting motive. Billy

857
00:45:28,760 --> 00:45:32,560
Speaker 1: had a fifty thousand dollars life insurance policy, which in

858
00:45:32,640 --> 00:45:35,720
Speaker 1: today money is about a half a million dollars. Billy

859
00:45:35,800 --> 00:45:38,920
Speaker 1: has not been paying on this policy, but the second

860
00:45:39,080 --> 00:45:42,600
Speaker 1: ex wife, who lives right next door, has been paying

861
00:45:42,600 --> 00:45:45,440
Speaker 1: it each and every month. The premiums on this policy.

862
00:45:45,600 --> 00:45:47,200
Speaker 2: So who's the beneficiary.

863
00:45:47,400 --> 00:45:52,120
Speaker 1: Well, here's the interesting thing. It is Daisy, his mother.

864
00:45:52,680 --> 00:45:57,600
Speaker 1: So both ex wives were surprised that he had not

865
00:45:57,719 --> 00:46:00,240
Speaker 1: named one of them as a beneficiary.

866
00:46:00,560 --> 00:46:02,040
Speaker 4: He had the insurance policy.

867
00:46:02,080 --> 00:46:04,400
Speaker 1: It sounds like with the first ex wife because he

868
00:46:04,440 --> 00:46:07,080
Speaker 1: was a truck driver, and then you know, continued to

869
00:46:07,120 --> 00:46:10,200
Speaker 1: pay when he married the second ex wife and then

870
00:46:10,440 --> 00:46:13,960
Speaker 1: he stopped paying. It sounds like when they divorced and

871
00:46:14,200 --> 00:46:17,040
Speaker 1: she picked up the payments. So you've got two ex

872
00:46:17,080 --> 00:46:21,080
Speaker 1: wives who say, wait, I'm the beneficiary of this huge policy.

873
00:46:21,440 --> 00:46:24,399
Speaker 1: But this is what's so interesting to me. The way

874
00:46:24,440 --> 00:46:26,560
Speaker 1: the policy was written in the way it was interpreted

875
00:46:26,560 --> 00:46:28,800
Speaker 1: by the courts because this turned into a court case,

876
00:46:29,520 --> 00:46:33,239
Speaker 1: was that Billy was killed first before Daisy, so she

877
00:46:33,440 --> 00:46:36,759
Speaker 1: was the living beneficiary when he died, and because she

878
00:46:37,040 --> 00:46:41,319
Speaker 1: hadn't named either ex wife as her beneficiary, it was

879
00:46:41,360 --> 00:46:44,880
Speaker 1: tied up in courts on which ex wife, if anybody,

880
00:46:44,960 --> 00:46:48,319
Speaker 1: was going to get this money, because the order of

881
00:46:48,520 --> 00:46:52,000
Speaker 1: death became very important in this case, and that's why

882
00:46:52,200 --> 00:46:54,200
Speaker 1: who was going to benefit from this? And you've got

883
00:46:54,200 --> 00:46:56,480
Speaker 1: two women who believe they were going to benefit from

884
00:46:56,480 --> 00:46:56,919
Speaker 1: his death.

885
00:46:57,120 --> 00:47:02,760
Speaker 2: Yeah, However, when it comes to determining motive to commit

886
00:47:02,800 --> 00:47:08,240
Speaker 2: the homicide. How this insurance policy was actually written sounds

887
00:47:08,280 --> 00:47:11,359
Speaker 2: like it was unknown to the people ahead of time,

888
00:47:11,800 --> 00:47:15,520
Speaker 2: and so they're developing possibly a financial motive based on

889
00:47:15,600 --> 00:47:19,799
Speaker 2: their belief and this becomes very important. I mean, you

890
00:47:19,840 --> 00:47:22,520
Speaker 2: have fifty thousand dollars. I would not have expected Billy

891
00:47:22,600 --> 00:47:25,600
Speaker 2: to have that level of life insurance policy in nineteen

892
00:47:25,640 --> 00:47:30,439
Speaker 2: sixty three, So it's a significant amount of money. And

893
00:47:30,760 --> 00:47:33,120
Speaker 2: if either of the ex wives felt that they would

894
00:47:33,120 --> 00:47:36,399
Speaker 2: have been a beneficiary. And then people who are in

895
00:47:36,600 --> 00:47:40,200
Speaker 2: those ex wives social circles, let's say they're I don't

896
00:47:40,200 --> 00:47:42,560
Speaker 2: know if they either one of them had remarried or

897
00:47:42,719 --> 00:47:46,320
Speaker 2: maybe a relationship with a significant other. But that person

898
00:47:46,880 --> 00:47:49,640
Speaker 2: also is thinking, well, if she gets the money, I

899
00:47:49,800 --> 00:47:52,839
Speaker 2: have access to that money, you know. So that's where

900
00:47:52,840 --> 00:47:57,600
Speaker 2: you really start digging in into both ex wives to see, okay,

901
00:47:57,800 --> 00:48:00,040
Speaker 2: who is capable of it. Of course, you have to

902
00:48:00,040 --> 00:48:02,279
Speaker 2: figure out we've used the term. I've used the term

903
00:48:02,280 --> 00:48:05,279
Speaker 2: when I talk about this offender as he but no,

904
00:48:05,560 --> 00:48:07,680
Speaker 2: you know, this is where one of these ex wives

905
00:48:07,800 --> 00:48:10,920
Speaker 2: could have been the one that walked into that cafe.

906
00:48:11,160 --> 00:48:13,840
Speaker 2: They have to be investigated in terms of their timeline

907
00:48:13,840 --> 00:48:16,200
Speaker 2: that day, their alibi at the time that they believe

908
00:48:16,239 --> 00:48:20,120
Speaker 2: the shooting occurred, as well as who they are communicating with,

909
00:48:20,320 --> 00:48:22,600
Speaker 2: who are they in a relationship with, who do they

910
00:48:22,600 --> 00:48:25,640
Speaker 2: have access to that could potentially be capable of committing

911
00:48:25,640 --> 00:48:26,120
Speaker 2: this crime.

912
00:48:26,480 --> 00:48:29,520
Speaker 1: My vote is for ex wife number two, who lives

913
00:48:29,640 --> 00:48:32,279
Speaker 1: right next door to the wayside, ind who obviously knows

914
00:48:32,320 --> 00:48:35,840
Speaker 1: the couple very well. I'm sure they could identify the

915
00:48:35,880 --> 00:48:38,440
Speaker 1: first ex wife if they had survived, but certainly the

916
00:48:38,480 --> 00:48:41,719
Speaker 1: second ex wife. You know, obviously she knew their hours,

917
00:48:41,920 --> 00:48:43,960
Speaker 1: probably growing up in Idaho. She knew how to use

918
00:48:44,000 --> 00:48:46,960
Speaker 1: a gun. I certainly would never say that one gender

919
00:48:47,080 --> 00:48:49,880
Speaker 1: is more apt to be able to use a firearm

920
00:48:49,920 --> 00:48:53,000
Speaker 1: correctly than the other. But I imagine she could use a gun,

921
00:48:53,640 --> 00:48:54,560
Speaker 1: and she.

922
00:48:54,719 --> 00:48:56,000
Speaker 4: Was paying on the policy.

923
00:48:56,120 --> 00:48:59,360
Speaker 1: I assume the first ex wife just forgot about it,

924
00:48:59,440 --> 00:49:01,759
Speaker 1: and assume that she was going to be one of

925
00:49:01,800 --> 00:49:03,720
Speaker 1: the ones who benefit. So let me tell you what happens.

926
00:49:03,760 --> 00:49:06,200
Speaker 1: So the judge just says, forget it. I have no

927
00:49:06,320 --> 00:49:09,000
Speaker 1: idea who gets this. He split it down the middle.

928
00:49:09,160 --> 00:49:11,279
Speaker 1: So now you've got two women who have benefited from

929
00:49:11,360 --> 00:49:14,520
Speaker 1: this man's death. Who sounds like a terrible person, they

930
00:49:14,520 --> 00:49:18,120
Speaker 1: had terrible divorces. There were both pissed off current men

931
00:49:18,280 --> 00:49:21,560
Speaker 1: in their lives who didn't like Billy either. So you

932
00:49:21,680 --> 00:49:24,279
Speaker 1: now have a financial motive as well as this guy

933
00:49:24,400 --> 00:49:27,160
Speaker 1: was a jerk, And it's a very convoluted mess.

934
00:49:27,239 --> 00:49:27,520
Speaker 2: To me.

935
00:49:28,000 --> 00:49:32,160
Speaker 1: You've got someone in the family who certainly is probably

936
00:49:32,160 --> 00:49:35,040
Speaker 1: the prime suspect at this point, but we don't know who.

937
00:49:35,320 --> 00:49:37,719
Speaker 2: Well, the second ex wife, if she's continuing to make

938
00:49:37,760 --> 00:49:40,920
Speaker 2: payments on this life insurance policy, she is under the

939
00:49:41,000 --> 00:49:44,560
Speaker 2: belief that she is a beneficiary and probably the sole

940
00:49:44,600 --> 00:49:48,640
Speaker 2: beneficiary of the fifty thousand dollars. So financial motive is

941
00:49:48,760 --> 00:49:52,719
Speaker 2: huge there. Did the sheriff search her place? Was she

942
00:49:52,800 --> 00:49:56,640
Speaker 2: known to have owned a thirty two caliber cult pistol?

943
00:49:57,000 --> 00:49:59,360
Speaker 2: You know, there's so much questions I have about this

944
00:49:59,440 --> 00:50:03,080
Speaker 2: ex wife. You know how thoroughly was she investigated to

945
00:50:03,120 --> 00:50:05,400
Speaker 2: determine her involvement in the homicide.

946
00:50:05,560 --> 00:50:07,759
Speaker 1: It sounds like enough to say we don't have enough

947
00:50:07,800 --> 00:50:11,000
Speaker 1: evidence to charge anybody with anything. In The judge did

948
00:50:11,000 --> 00:50:14,920
Speaker 1: not deny the insurance company of having to pay this out.

949
00:50:15,400 --> 00:50:18,520
Speaker 1: One strange footnote here that I didn't get into very

950
00:50:18,600 --> 00:50:20,680
Speaker 1: much with the family, but the second ex wife ends

951
00:50:20,760 --> 00:50:22,040
Speaker 1: up marrying Billy's brother.

952
00:50:23,080 --> 00:50:25,960
Speaker 2: Okay, later on, this.

953
00:50:25,800 --> 00:50:26,960
Speaker 4: Is another development.

954
00:50:27,040 --> 00:50:32,640
Speaker 1: I think you've got a very unlikable, very at risk victim.

955
00:50:32,880 --> 00:50:36,000
Speaker 1: Then you've got his parents, his stepfather and his mother

956
00:50:36,040 --> 00:50:39,200
Speaker 1: who were collateral damage, and you've got several people very

957
00:50:39,200 --> 00:50:42,040
Speaker 1: close in his life who benefit financially and also don't

958
00:50:42,160 --> 00:50:45,400
Speaker 1: like him. So this is all very sensitive though, with

959
00:50:45,440 --> 00:50:45,960
Speaker 1: the family.

960
00:50:46,360 --> 00:50:50,480
Speaker 2: Sure, and from my perspective, I do think the second

961
00:50:50,560 --> 00:50:53,520
Speaker 2: ex wife and her associates are likely going to be

962
00:50:53,560 --> 00:50:56,120
Speaker 2: the prime suspects and the homicide, but I would not

963
00:50:57,040 --> 00:51:01,760
Speaker 2: eliminate other possibilities until the case is proven. Yeah, because

964
00:51:02,000 --> 00:51:04,239
Speaker 2: it doesn't sound like the sheriff got very far in

965
00:51:04,320 --> 00:51:07,320
Speaker 2: terms of actually making a case. So this technically is

966
00:51:07,360 --> 00:51:11,640
Speaker 2: still an unsolved triple homicide. Prime suspect second ex wife,

967
00:51:11,960 --> 00:51:15,080
Speaker 2: but I'm assuming she remarried the brother, she lived a

968
00:51:15,120 --> 00:51:19,239
Speaker 2: happy life thereafter with the money, and has subsequently passed away.

969
00:51:19,440 --> 00:51:19,680
Speaker 4: Yep.

970
00:51:19,840 --> 00:51:22,680
Speaker 1: And that's why I'm not naming her because her grandchildren,

971
00:51:22,680 --> 00:51:25,719
Speaker 1: I believe, are still around and everybody has mixed feelings.

972
00:51:25,840 --> 00:51:28,239
Speaker 1: I don't think anybody truly knows, But you're right, with

973
00:51:28,360 --> 00:51:32,080
Speaker 1: a cold case like this, speculating is really hard the

974
00:51:32,120 --> 00:51:34,600
Speaker 1: only thing you and I can do is look at

975
00:51:34,600 --> 00:51:35,359
Speaker 1: the evidence and.

976
00:51:35,360 --> 00:51:37,520
Speaker 3: Say where would we have headed?

977
00:51:37,960 --> 00:51:40,000
Speaker 1: And I certainly would have spent as much time as

978
00:51:40,000 --> 00:51:43,000
Speaker 1: possible on the people who benefited the most, which turned

979
00:51:43,040 --> 00:51:45,839
Speaker 1: out to be these two women in his life who

980
00:51:45,880 --> 00:51:50,239
Speaker 1: were also likely the most hurt by Billy. Again, you know,

981
00:51:50,280 --> 00:51:54,880
Speaker 1: we don't always deal with victims like Neil's and like Daisy,

982
00:51:55,040 --> 00:51:58,520
Speaker 1: who just sound salt of the earth, wonderful people who

983
00:51:58,560 --> 00:52:01,800
Speaker 1: certainly didn't deserve to die in this way. Nobody deserves

984
00:52:01,840 --> 00:52:05,479
Speaker 1: to die, certainly of murder. But Billy certainly doesn't sound

985
00:52:05,520 --> 00:52:08,920
Speaker 1: like somebody who was valued during life and even.

986
00:52:08,840 --> 00:52:11,879
Speaker 2: After the life, even today. You know, this is where

987
00:52:12,000 --> 00:52:15,680
Speaker 2: the family. You know. My questions about the second ex

988
00:52:15,760 --> 00:52:18,520
Speaker 2: wife is what does she maintain a diary? Did she

989
00:52:18,560 --> 00:52:21,880
Speaker 2: write letters? Was there a deathbed confession? You know, she

990
00:52:22,080 --> 00:52:24,960
Speaker 2: continued to live and maybe the guilt got to her.

991
00:52:25,200 --> 00:52:29,360
Speaker 2: She doesn't sound like she is a hardcore criminal, hardcore killer,

992
00:52:29,520 --> 00:52:32,640
Speaker 2: So maybe Billy being killed she doesn't bad an eye

993
00:52:32,640 --> 00:52:35,600
Speaker 2: at because this was just a bad relationship. But she

994
00:52:35,719 --> 00:52:38,920
Speaker 2: also took out Daisy and Neils know whether she's a

995
00:52:38,920 --> 00:52:42,000
Speaker 2: shooter or had somebody do it. That's going to eat

996
00:52:42,000 --> 00:52:44,640
Speaker 2: at her till the day you know, she died. That's

997
00:52:44,640 --> 00:52:47,680
Speaker 2: where I would be starting to focus. Is okay, what

998
00:52:47,880 --> 00:52:51,960
Speaker 2: exists today, either in a written form or you know,

999
00:52:52,160 --> 00:52:56,480
Speaker 2: verbal communications from her that would help cement in my

1000
00:52:56,640 --> 00:53:00,200
Speaker 2: mind that she was responsible for this triple homssid.

1001
00:53:00,600 --> 00:53:03,399
Speaker 1: Yeah, we certainly don't want to convict someone we don't

1002
00:53:03,440 --> 00:53:06,160
Speaker 1: even know, you know, all of the evidence. But this

1003
00:53:06,200 --> 00:53:11,839
Speaker 1: is again, Paul, why homicides that are what I consider contemporary,

1004
00:53:11,880 --> 00:53:15,319
Speaker 1: which is nineteen sixty three is contemporary for me. Homicides

1005
00:53:15,320 --> 00:53:17,800
Speaker 1: that are more recent, you know, make me so nervous

1006
00:53:17,840 --> 00:53:20,239
Speaker 1: because of the family, and I want to make sure

1007
00:53:20,239 --> 00:53:23,680
Speaker 1: that we get everything right. And it's really hard to

1008
00:53:23,719 --> 00:53:26,960
Speaker 1: make guesses about things when you don't have one hundred

1009
00:53:26,960 --> 00:53:29,880
Speaker 1: percent of the information. But I think that we certainly

1010
00:53:29,920 --> 00:53:32,600
Speaker 1: know what road we would go down if we were

1011
00:53:32,680 --> 00:53:35,600
Speaker 1: back in nineteen sixty three trying to gather evidence. But

1012
00:53:35,840 --> 00:53:39,200
Speaker 1: I continue to say, if there are people who have

1013
00:53:39,320 --> 00:53:42,479
Speaker 1: these sorts of stories in their families, particularly if they

1014
00:53:42,520 --> 00:53:45,520
Speaker 1: have a lot of forensics happening, and Paul likes lots

1015
00:53:45,520 --> 00:53:48,680
Speaker 1: of twists and turns in the stories, definitely, you know,

1016
00:53:48,800 --> 00:53:50,799
Speaker 1: reach out and let us know because I think that

1017
00:53:50,880 --> 00:53:55,400
Speaker 1: there's a very rich environment for people being able to

1018
00:53:55,840 --> 00:53:58,239
Speaker 1: do research on their own families. And some of the

1019
00:53:58,239 --> 00:54:00,560
Speaker 1: people that I've talked with, some of our listeners really

1020
00:54:00,600 --> 00:54:02,080
Speaker 1: have dentis tremendous amount of research.

1021
00:54:02,120 --> 00:54:03,720
Speaker 4: So I love that kind of support.

1022
00:54:04,120 --> 00:54:07,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I think to prove this case is to

1023
00:54:07,640 --> 00:54:11,360
Speaker 2: find the gun was as a gun. A smart killer

1024
00:54:11,440 --> 00:54:14,400
Speaker 2: would totally get rid of the gun, yep. But sometimes

1025
00:54:14,480 --> 00:54:17,319
Speaker 2: people hold on to the gun and maybe that gun

1026
00:54:17,400 --> 00:54:20,239
Speaker 2: has been passed down through the family and they don't

1027
00:54:20,280 --> 00:54:23,759
Speaker 2: realize it's a murder weapon, okay, or it's you know,

1028
00:54:23,920 --> 00:54:27,680
Speaker 2: been secreted, it's in a safety deposit box, hid in

1029
00:54:27,760 --> 00:54:30,799
Speaker 2: that way, or buried in the backyard. You know that

1030
00:54:30,880 --> 00:54:34,400
Speaker 2: would I think short of that written confession, finding that

1031
00:54:34,440 --> 00:54:37,560
Speaker 2: gun would be where Okay, now we know what happened.

1032
00:54:39,840 --> 00:54:41,840
Speaker 1: Okay, well I'm going to go now check my backyard

1033
00:54:42,120 --> 00:54:43,920
Speaker 1: for hidden guns.

1034
00:54:44,440 --> 00:54:47,720
Speaker 4: Any past rhymes happened. I'm always looking around.

1035
00:54:47,719 --> 00:54:49,680
Speaker 1: My family thinks I'm crazy because I'm always thinking, I

1036
00:54:49,719 --> 00:54:52,040
Speaker 1: wonder if anything weird has ever happened at our house

1037
00:54:52,080 --> 00:54:52,840
Speaker 1: and our location.

1038
00:54:52,960 --> 00:54:54,400
Speaker 4: You never know, you never know.

1039
00:54:55,120 --> 00:54:56,759
Speaker 2: I mean, your house used to be a morgue, right,

1040
00:54:56,920 --> 00:54:57,799
Speaker 2: isn't that what you told me.

1041
00:54:58,040 --> 00:55:02,200
Speaker 1: Now, this is my my house at Austin feels like work.

1042
00:55:02,280 --> 00:55:03,800
Speaker 4: Sometimes I keep it very cold.

1043
00:55:03,880 --> 00:55:08,799
Speaker 1: So okay, okay, So next week we're going to have

1044
00:55:08,960 --> 00:55:12,920
Speaker 1: another fantastic case that I can't wait to unravel with you.

1045
00:55:13,760 --> 00:55:15,880
Speaker 1: And just to let you know, Paul, I don't know

1046
00:55:15,880 --> 00:55:18,480
Speaker 1: if you know this, but the new trailer for season

1047
00:55:18,600 --> 00:55:22,680
Speaker 1: seven of tenfold More Wicked just dropped and I'm so excited.

1048
00:55:22,800 --> 00:55:24,360
Speaker 2: Oh that's very cool.

1049
00:55:24,600 --> 00:55:25,480
Speaker 4: I've been waiting forever.

1050
00:55:25,600 --> 00:55:27,960
Speaker 1: There's so many big gaps, you know, in between the

1051
00:55:28,040 --> 00:55:30,839
Speaker 1: last season in the beginning of the next season, and

1052
00:55:31,120 --> 00:55:34,399
Speaker 1: I love tenfold more Wicked, and I know some people

1053
00:55:34,480 --> 00:55:37,120
Speaker 1: have been asking me about it. So this upcoming season,

1054
00:55:37,239 --> 00:55:41,279
Speaker 1: season seven is about a family annihilator, which is something

1055
00:55:41,320 --> 00:55:45,360
Speaker 1: I've never covered before in Austin, Texas in the eighteen hundreds,

1056
00:55:45,640 --> 00:55:48,239
Speaker 1: and I'm ninety nine point nine percent sure no one's

1057
00:55:48,239 --> 00:55:50,359
Speaker 1: ever heard this story before. Those are my favorite kinds

1058
00:55:50,360 --> 00:55:51,799
Speaker 1: of stories. So I can't wait to tell you more

1059
00:55:51,800 --> 00:55:52,840
Speaker 1: about it in a couple of weeks.

1060
00:55:52,840 --> 00:55:54,200
Speaker 2: Paul, looking forward to it.

1061
00:55:54,400 --> 00:55:55,600
Speaker 4: Okay, I'll see you next week.

1062
00:55:55,800 --> 00:55:56,799
Speaker 2: Sounds good.

1063
00:56:01,520 --> 00:56:04,000
Speaker 3: This has been an exactly right production.

1064
00:56:04,040 --> 00:56:07,239
Speaker 2: For our sources and show notes go to Exactlyrightmedia dot

1065
00:56:07,280 --> 00:56:09,400
Speaker 2: com slash Buried Bones sources.

1066
00:56:09,640 --> 00:56:12,000
Speaker 3: Our senior producer is Alexis Emirosi.

1067
00:56:12,280 --> 00:56:15,160
Speaker 2: Research by Maren mcclashan and Kate Winkler Dawson.

1068
00:56:15,280 --> 00:56:17,680
Speaker 4: Our mixing engineer is Ryo Baum.

1069
00:56:17,880 --> 00:56:20,160
Speaker 2: Our theme song is by Tom Bryfogel.

1070
00:56:20,400 --> 00:56:22,440
Speaker 3: Our artwork is by Vanessa Lilac.

1071
00:56:22,680 --> 00:56:26,840
Speaker 2: Executive produced by Karen Kilgarriff, Georgia hard Stark and Daniel Kramer.

1072
00:56:27,120 --> 00:56:30,480
Speaker 1: You can follow Buried Bones on Instagram and Facebook at

1073
00:56:30,560 --> 00:56:31,720
Speaker 1: Baried Bones pod.

1074
00:56:32,200 --> 00:56:34,760
Speaker 2: Kate's most recent book, All That Is Wicked, a Gilded

1075
00:56:34,760 --> 00:56:36,759
Speaker 2: Age story of murder and the race to decode the

1076
00:56:36,760 --> 00:56:39,000
Speaker 2: criminal mind, is available now, and

1077
00:56:39,120 --> 00:56:43,880
Speaker 1: Paul's best selling memoir Unmasked, My life solving America's Cold Cases,

1078
00:56:44,080 --> 00:56:45,279
Speaker 1: is also available now