1 00:00:14,836 --> 00:00:29,396 Speaker 1: Pushkin. Hi. I'm Phil Donahue and I'm Marlowe Thomas, and 2 00:00:29,516 --> 00:00:32,476 Speaker 1: we're going on a series of double dates to find 3 00:00:32,516 --> 00:00:40,196 Speaker 1: out what makes a marriage. Last we flew out to 4 00:00:40,316 --> 00:00:43,756 Speaker 1: Santa Monica to visit Ted Danson and Mary steam Bergin. 5 00:00:44,276 --> 00:00:47,276 Speaker 1: Their house is carved into the side of a hill. 6 00:00:47,556 --> 00:00:50,956 Speaker 1: It's a craftsman style bungalow built in nineteen twenty two, 7 00:00:51,276 --> 00:00:53,636 Speaker 1: and it has what is called a living roof, which 8 00:00:53,716 --> 00:00:57,516 Speaker 1: is covered with greenery to fight off climate change. Ted 9 00:00:57,556 --> 00:01:02,356 Speaker 1: and Mary decorated it themselves. It's very relaxed and homy. Mostly, 10 00:01:02,396 --> 00:01:05,396 Speaker 1: it was their warm connection to each other that grabbed 11 00:01:05,396 --> 00:01:11,316 Speaker 1: our attention from the start. Yeah, we've been so excited. 12 00:01:11,476 --> 00:01:14,676 Speaker 1: We're really honored that you asked us. Yeah, well you 13 00:01:14,796 --> 00:01:18,796 Speaker 1: came to mind immediately. You know, really, people are always 14 00:01:18,836 --> 00:01:20,956 Speaker 1: asking us, how did you? How are you married? So long? 15 00:01:20,996 --> 00:01:24,916 Speaker 1: On what? I like him? He likes me. Yeah, he's cute. 16 00:01:24,916 --> 00:01:28,316 Speaker 1: I like the way he smells. That is that's a 17 00:01:28,356 --> 00:01:33,916 Speaker 1: big deal. That's why. Yeah good. Ted likes to play 18 00:01:33,956 --> 00:01:36,756 Speaker 1: the rascal. But once we settled at their farm style 19 00:01:36,876 --> 00:01:39,956 Speaker 1: kitchen table and began to talk, he was so honest 20 00:01:39,996 --> 00:01:42,756 Speaker 1: and vulnerable. Well, the four of us here, I'm the 21 00:01:42,756 --> 00:01:46,436 Speaker 1: only one who's only married once. Oh yes, I'm the 22 00:01:46,556 --> 00:01:50,076 Speaker 1: third time being married. Well that maybe that's an interesting 23 00:01:50,116 --> 00:01:56,476 Speaker 1: way to start, so great, because either you're a wild 24 00:01:56,556 --> 00:02:01,716 Speaker 1: optimist or you're in total denial. I mean, I got 25 00:02:01,756 --> 00:02:06,556 Speaker 1: married in college at Carnegie halfway through, and I think 26 00:02:06,556 --> 00:02:09,676 Speaker 1: it's fair to say the real communication would have been 27 00:02:11,276 --> 00:02:13,676 Speaker 1: I'm afraid to go to New York by myself, are you? 28 00:02:13,836 --> 00:02:17,596 Speaker 1: Oh well, let's go share an apartment and be buddies. 29 00:02:18,316 --> 00:02:21,276 Speaker 1: That would have been kind of the emotional truth. But 30 00:02:21,396 --> 00:02:26,396 Speaker 1: somehow we ended up getting married and twenty two and 31 00:02:27,836 --> 00:02:32,556 Speaker 1: married for five years. Good friends but certainly not you know, 32 00:02:33,356 --> 00:02:40,556 Speaker 1: a marriage, and then got divorced and married again and 33 00:02:41,876 --> 00:02:46,756 Speaker 1: had children, but still a huge level of unconsciousness on 34 00:02:46,796 --> 00:02:50,876 Speaker 1: my part, and that lasted fifteen years. I mean, my 35 00:02:50,916 --> 00:02:54,076 Speaker 1: life was incredibly messy, but underneath there was a lot 36 00:02:54,076 --> 00:02:58,076 Speaker 1: of work going on where I was trying to stop 37 00:02:58,076 --> 00:03:02,716 Speaker 1: being a liar and wake up and were lying about 38 00:03:03,556 --> 00:03:07,756 Speaker 1: everything pretty much. It was not hugely faithful. I'll leave 39 00:03:07,796 --> 00:03:10,716 Speaker 1: it at that. So I did all this work on myself. 40 00:03:11,516 --> 00:03:14,636 Speaker 1: But by the time we met, I was convinced I 41 00:03:14,676 --> 00:03:19,116 Speaker 1: was incapable of having a relationship that I wouldn't mess up. 42 00:03:19,716 --> 00:03:22,356 Speaker 1: This was back in nineteen ninety four when both of 43 00:03:22,396 --> 00:03:25,276 Speaker 1: them were cast in a film called pontiag Moon. And 44 00:03:25,436 --> 00:03:28,476 Speaker 1: just like when I first met you, Ted was drawn 45 00:03:28,516 --> 00:03:32,956 Speaker 1: to Mary immediately. And what was it about her? When 46 00:03:32,956 --> 00:03:36,676 Speaker 1: you cast in apart together, you have an excuse to 47 00:03:36,716 --> 00:03:39,756 Speaker 1: look at somebody in the eye, whereas otherwise I'm kind 48 00:03:39,756 --> 00:03:43,196 Speaker 1: of shy. We're about to work together, so you you're 49 00:03:43,196 --> 00:03:45,556 Speaker 1: supposed to know each other, so you share. And I 50 00:03:45,756 --> 00:03:48,716 Speaker 1: was like, I said, a hot mess, and so I 51 00:03:48,756 --> 00:03:51,516 Speaker 1: shared my life with her on that first night, and 52 00:03:51,596 --> 00:03:54,236 Speaker 1: it was very clear nothing was possibly going to happen 53 00:03:54,636 --> 00:03:58,436 Speaker 1: because how nutty I was and Mary wasn't looking to 54 00:03:58,476 --> 00:04:01,836 Speaker 1: be in a relationship. So it really started off friends 55 00:04:01,956 --> 00:04:07,716 Speaker 1: until halfway through the production we took a canoe ride. 56 00:04:09,156 --> 00:04:12,236 Speaker 1: Jump in here. I don't want to do a monologue, okay, 57 00:04:12,396 --> 00:04:16,196 Speaker 1: all right, So we were playing this kind of nineteen 58 00:04:16,356 --> 00:04:20,716 Speaker 1: sixties kind of It was a very strange film. But 59 00:04:21,956 --> 00:04:24,436 Speaker 1: we're not going to have a relationship Mary and I 60 00:04:24,676 --> 00:04:28,716 Speaker 1: because that's clear. But we should do something fun and 61 00:04:28,796 --> 00:04:31,436 Speaker 1: kind of old fashioned romantic, because that's kind of what 62 00:04:31,476 --> 00:04:34,036 Speaker 1: the film was like. By then, I knew that. When 63 00:04:34,036 --> 00:04:36,196 Speaker 1: I showed up at lunch and somebody else was sitting 64 00:04:36,236 --> 00:04:38,796 Speaker 1: next to Mary, the part of me was like a 65 00:04:38,876 --> 00:04:41,636 Speaker 1: little grumpy that I hadn't got there in time to 66 00:04:41,676 --> 00:04:43,996 Speaker 1: sit next door. But then we took the canoe ride 67 00:04:43,996 --> 00:04:48,036 Speaker 1: and it was this big title river called the Mendocino River, 68 00:04:47,516 --> 00:04:51,156 Speaker 1: big river, and we got into a canoe that had 69 00:04:51,196 --> 00:04:55,196 Speaker 1: an outrigger. It was just a beautiful canoe and there 70 00:04:55,236 --> 00:04:57,236 Speaker 1: was a group of three or four other people going 71 00:04:57,316 --> 00:05:01,156 Speaker 1: up and we outdistanced them quickly and we just kept 72 00:05:01,236 --> 00:05:06,236 Speaker 1: going around the next bend. It was always Merry in 73 00:05:06,276 --> 00:05:10,876 Speaker 1: the front to me in the back, effortlessly paddling, which 74 00:05:10,956 --> 00:05:13,036 Speaker 1: is you learn a lot, I think in a canoe. 75 00:05:13,356 --> 00:05:16,116 Speaker 1: And there was very little conversation except when it was 76 00:05:16,236 --> 00:05:23,036 Speaker 1: right sea Otter's Blue herons. Yeah, it was just it 77 00:05:23,076 --> 00:05:28,156 Speaker 1: was just magically beautiful and totally in sync and peaceful 78 00:05:28,356 --> 00:05:30,996 Speaker 1: and at ease. And I think on the way down 79 00:05:31,036 --> 00:05:33,356 Speaker 1: we stopped to have a little bite on the corner 80 00:05:33,356 --> 00:05:36,396 Speaker 1: of the side of the river and but you kept 81 00:05:36,436 --> 00:05:40,116 Speaker 1: wanting to turn around. Oh. That was kind of a 82 00:05:40,156 --> 00:05:42,596 Speaker 1: for our wedding. That part of our bows was a 83 00:05:42,596 --> 00:05:46,796 Speaker 1: poem about that canoe ride. It was really kind of 84 00:05:46,836 --> 00:05:51,316 Speaker 1: like a charter for our marriage about look, you know, 85 00:05:51,436 --> 00:05:54,516 Speaker 1: finding the truth in each other's eyes. And but Mary 86 00:05:54,876 --> 00:05:57,396 Speaker 1: has in our entire life been the person that goes, oh, 87 00:05:57,476 --> 00:06:00,636 Speaker 1: let's let's go around the next band to come out, 88 00:06:00,756 --> 00:06:04,156 Speaker 1: let's let's do this. I'm usually the one going, oh, 89 00:06:04,196 --> 00:06:06,796 Speaker 1: I don't you know, I think we should. We're fine, 90 00:06:06,836 --> 00:06:10,196 Speaker 1: we should. And she's always the one that gets me 91 00:06:10,276 --> 00:06:12,556 Speaker 1: to go around the next kind of curve in life 92 00:06:12,756 --> 00:06:17,996 Speaker 1: and yeah, yeah, no, it is. Hey, we're maddling love. 93 00:06:18,116 --> 00:06:23,996 Speaker 1: I am um feel so blessed on every level, from 94 00:06:23,996 --> 00:06:27,196 Speaker 1: as deeply spiritual as you can get to to the 95 00:06:27,556 --> 00:06:32,516 Speaker 1: more shallow and whatever. M we really do celebrate how 96 00:06:32,596 --> 00:06:34,956 Speaker 1: lucky we are a lot. Were you a little scared? 97 00:06:36,316 --> 00:06:40,916 Speaker 1: I got scared? You did. We had one moment We're 98 00:06:40,956 --> 00:06:45,796 Speaker 1: got really scared because we lived very differently. I lived 99 00:06:45,836 --> 00:06:51,316 Speaker 1: in an old farmhouse in Ohio and had a very 100 00:06:51,356 --> 00:06:56,156 Speaker 1: small life except I would go off and occasionally do 101 00:06:56,276 --> 00:06:58,516 Speaker 1: a movie. But I couldn't even do that very often 102 00:06:58,596 --> 00:07:02,836 Speaker 1: because I was a single parent and I didn't want 103 00:07:02,836 --> 00:07:06,876 Speaker 1: to leave my kids, you know. And I've always been 104 00:07:07,116 --> 00:07:11,796 Speaker 1: a little shy of being out there being talked about 105 00:07:13,356 --> 00:07:16,036 Speaker 1: I don't need that. I love being an actor, but 106 00:07:16,116 --> 00:07:19,396 Speaker 1: I didn't do it because I need to be the 107 00:07:19,436 --> 00:07:22,636 Speaker 1: person in front of the flashbulbs. I like being in 108 00:07:22,676 --> 00:07:25,756 Speaker 1: front of the camera, but I don't like my life 109 00:07:25,796 --> 00:07:29,876 Speaker 1: being out there and his was all out there and 110 00:07:29,956 --> 00:07:33,316 Speaker 1: so but because I was being messy, yeah, but it 111 00:07:33,516 --> 00:07:37,236 Speaker 1: scared me. It scared me. And I was just scared 112 00:07:37,236 --> 00:07:39,836 Speaker 1: because I'm so protective of my children as a mother, 113 00:07:40,156 --> 00:07:43,396 Speaker 1: Like what, I don't want to make a bad choice, 114 00:07:43,476 --> 00:07:47,836 Speaker 1: and so it was scary, you know. But here's what 115 00:07:47,956 --> 00:07:53,076 Speaker 1: I found. I found this weird thing that you can 116 00:07:53,236 --> 00:07:56,356 Speaker 1: go Your brain can say no, no, no, I can't 117 00:07:56,356 --> 00:07:58,876 Speaker 1: do this, no, no, no, this is I need to 118 00:07:58,876 --> 00:08:02,756 Speaker 1: walk away from this, and your brain can say whatever 119 00:08:02,836 --> 00:08:07,196 Speaker 1: it says. But it's I found. And this is not 120 00:08:07,276 --> 00:08:11,556 Speaker 1: an intentional pun. But my soul was in my feet. 121 00:08:12,396 --> 00:08:19,596 Speaker 1: My feet, sometimes very hesitantly, sometimes more surely, walked toward him, 122 00:08:20,436 --> 00:08:24,516 Speaker 1: and no matter what my head was doing, that's what 123 00:08:25,156 --> 00:08:28,356 Speaker 1: I found myself doing. And so it was like, I 124 00:08:28,356 --> 00:08:31,916 Speaker 1: can only assume that was the voice of my soul 125 00:08:32,036 --> 00:08:37,316 Speaker 1: because my brain, my brain was not that simple, you know. 126 00:08:37,716 --> 00:08:40,396 Speaker 1: My brain was like, well, especially a guy who had 127 00:08:40,396 --> 00:08:43,956 Speaker 1: been married twice. Yeah, you would think, well, is he 128 00:08:44,036 --> 00:08:46,636 Speaker 1: going to be able to do this? Yeah? I will. Also, 129 00:08:46,756 --> 00:08:50,196 Speaker 1: I had told myself because I had just ended a 130 00:08:50,276 --> 00:08:54,316 Speaker 1: relationship right before I met him, and it was really 131 00:08:54,356 --> 00:08:58,076 Speaker 1: not a good relationship at all, and we were both 132 00:09:00,036 --> 00:09:04,116 Speaker 1: very much not right for each other. And and I 133 00:09:04,156 --> 00:09:08,316 Speaker 1: had just told all of my friends, guess what, I'm 134 00:09:08,396 --> 00:09:12,836 Speaker 1: not relationships, and I look like I would be, but 135 00:09:12,956 --> 00:09:16,956 Speaker 1: in fact I'm not, and I'm I'm done. I have 136 00:09:16,996 --> 00:09:20,076 Speaker 1: two beautiful children. I'm done. I'm not putting myself through 137 00:09:20,076 --> 00:09:25,036 Speaker 1: this anymore. And then I met him. I was smitten. 138 00:09:25,076 --> 00:09:29,036 Speaker 1: I was smitten without because my life was so complicated, 139 00:09:29,596 --> 00:09:33,156 Speaker 1: I didn't think to do something about that, but I 140 00:09:33,196 --> 00:09:35,796 Speaker 1: couldn't wait to be around her, literally everybody. I don't 141 00:09:35,876 --> 00:09:38,876 Speaker 1: know if I felt that right away. It was such 142 00:09:38,916 --> 00:09:42,036 Speaker 1: a crazy time for me, and everything for me got 143 00:09:42,076 --> 00:09:46,236 Speaker 1: filtered through my two kids. So were they at this time? 144 00:09:46,396 --> 00:09:52,116 Speaker 1: They were ten and twelve. Yeah that's young. And then 145 00:09:52,276 --> 00:09:58,796 Speaker 1: I just started noticing whenever we were all as a 146 00:09:58,916 --> 00:10:03,036 Speaker 1: cask going out to dinner or doing something when he 147 00:10:03,116 --> 00:10:07,796 Speaker 1: wasn't there. It was like, oh, okay, a little disappointed, 148 00:10:08,196 --> 00:10:12,396 Speaker 1: So it's snug up on me and it just kept 149 00:10:12,436 --> 00:10:17,276 Speaker 1: being becoming more and more and more undeniable that I 150 00:10:17,356 --> 00:10:20,836 Speaker 1: wanted to be around him. And also just the more 151 00:10:20,876 --> 00:10:25,916 Speaker 1: I got to know him, the more I saw in 152 00:10:25,996 --> 00:10:30,356 Speaker 1: spite of everything that was going on, I saw what 153 00:10:30,476 --> 00:10:34,596 Speaker 1: a fine human being this is, you know, and and 154 00:10:34,836 --> 00:10:38,156 Speaker 1: so different than I thought because I had an image 155 00:10:38,156 --> 00:10:41,716 Speaker 1: of him that, even though it's stupid, I sort of 156 00:10:41,756 --> 00:10:45,396 Speaker 1: bought into Sam Malone, even though I should know better. 157 00:10:45,476 --> 00:10:48,996 Speaker 1: I'm an actor. But that was a long time that show, 158 00:10:49,156 --> 00:10:52,436 Speaker 1: and I was a big fan of this show, and 159 00:10:53,276 --> 00:10:58,636 Speaker 1: I started to think, oh, he's probably super slick guy, 160 00:10:58,996 --> 00:11:06,556 Speaker 1: you know. And my joke is that I was wrong, 161 00:11:06,796 --> 00:11:14,636 Speaker 1: because slick guys don't say gosha room after making love. That'slious. 162 00:11:15,116 --> 00:11:19,556 Speaker 1: But but I mean Ted was raised with the Hopie 163 00:11:19,636 --> 00:11:27,836 Speaker 1: Navajo people and ranchers kids outside of Flagstaff, Arizona. Spent 164 00:11:27,956 --> 00:11:32,516 Speaker 1: his mornings riding bareback on a horse, you know, across 165 00:11:32,556 --> 00:11:36,116 Speaker 1: the desert with his friend Raymond, who was Navajo or 166 00:11:36,156 --> 00:11:44,036 Speaker 1: Hobi Hopie, and that he had the most exotic American childhood. 167 00:11:44,156 --> 00:11:49,156 Speaker 1: And once I started meeting his family and seeing like 168 00:11:49,916 --> 00:11:54,156 Speaker 1: all the pieces that made up this person, it was like, Wow, 169 00:11:54,756 --> 00:11:58,316 Speaker 1: he's so not who I thought he was not at all. 170 00:11:58,996 --> 00:12:02,756 Speaker 1: And I mean for me, his tenderness towards my children 171 00:12:02,756 --> 00:12:07,316 Speaker 1: and now our grandchildren would be a reason alone to 172 00:12:07,516 --> 00:12:10,596 Speaker 1: love him. Yeah, did you make an accommodation that you 173 00:12:10,596 --> 00:12:14,516 Speaker 1: could talk about to accommodate the My changes came before 174 00:12:14,556 --> 00:12:18,596 Speaker 1: I met Mary. I mean, I had a mentor who 175 00:12:19,476 --> 00:12:21,956 Speaker 1: walked me through a lot of my stuff that I 176 00:12:21,996 --> 00:12:24,676 Speaker 1: was going through as soon as I had kind of 177 00:12:24,716 --> 00:12:29,116 Speaker 1: woken up, the gift of my life was standing there. 178 00:12:29,796 --> 00:12:32,916 Speaker 1: And but this habit you had of lying, let's say, right, 179 00:12:33,676 --> 00:12:37,356 Speaker 1: did you notice yourself saying to yourself, I'm not going 180 00:12:37,436 --> 00:12:40,076 Speaker 1: to do that here, I'm not gonna I do remember 181 00:12:40,076 --> 00:12:44,116 Speaker 1: one moment where, early on before we were engaged, even 182 00:12:44,236 --> 00:12:50,596 Speaker 1: that I started to do a version of push pull 183 00:12:50,876 --> 00:12:55,036 Speaker 1: and I looked at Mary. It didn't register on her face. 184 00:12:55,476 --> 00:12:59,156 Speaker 1: She didn't play that game. She didn't even nibble at 185 00:12:59,196 --> 00:13:02,036 Speaker 1: whatever this little thing I was, you know, doing. So 186 00:13:02,116 --> 00:13:04,516 Speaker 1: I was like, oh, because I don't have to do 187 00:13:04,556 --> 00:13:07,476 Speaker 1: that anymore. You know, this person doesn't even know this 188 00:13:07,836 --> 00:13:10,956 Speaker 1: stupid dance, right, I won't have to do that dance anymore. 189 00:13:12,196 --> 00:13:15,316 Speaker 1: For me, I had a big accommodation to make. I 190 00:13:15,436 --> 00:13:18,356 Speaker 1: was a single woman with no children, and I married 191 00:13:18,356 --> 00:13:22,476 Speaker 1: a man who lived with four sons. Then I was 192 00:13:22,596 --> 00:13:26,516 Speaker 1: very flattered because he would say to people, Marlo's the 193 00:13:26,516 --> 00:13:28,596 Speaker 1: first person I've ever known that knows the difference between 194 00:13:28,596 --> 00:13:31,116 Speaker 1: each of them and can talk to each of them differently. 195 00:13:31,556 --> 00:13:35,516 Speaker 1: And I had good relationships with them all. There is 196 00:13:35,636 --> 00:13:38,276 Speaker 1: no book that tells you how to do it. And 197 00:13:38,356 --> 00:13:41,876 Speaker 1: the one thing I figured out right away for me 198 00:13:42,116 --> 00:13:44,836 Speaker 1: that worked. I don't know if it works for everybody 199 00:13:45,196 --> 00:13:50,796 Speaker 1: is they have a mom, it's not me. What do 200 00:13:50,876 --> 00:13:54,476 Speaker 1: they need from me? Like what is safe and fair 201 00:13:54,676 --> 00:13:58,396 Speaker 1: to give to do as far as being a stepparent, 202 00:13:58,956 --> 00:14:04,316 Speaker 1: And then I thought, well, man, everybody needs a cheerleader. 203 00:14:04,796 --> 00:14:10,476 Speaker 1: There's no Mary Potts. No, there is no amthe no no. 204 00:14:11,396 --> 00:14:15,196 Speaker 1: Uh you know to get that, Yeah, and you just 205 00:14:15,276 --> 00:14:19,516 Speaker 1: have to hope. Yeah, you know, you know, I mean, 206 00:14:19,516 --> 00:14:22,036 Speaker 1: we've made a good lord. We're you know, we have 207 00:14:22,116 --> 00:14:26,716 Speaker 1: bumps and ups and downs, and you know I all 208 00:14:26,756 --> 00:14:30,476 Speaker 1: the time, but ninety percent of the time we want 209 00:14:30,476 --> 00:14:33,796 Speaker 1: to have fun and be happy. But you know we'll 210 00:14:33,876 --> 00:14:35,996 Speaker 1: do drama if we have to do a little bit. Well, 211 00:14:36,076 --> 00:14:38,756 Speaker 1: our motto is the only drama we like. Is that 212 00:14:38,756 --> 00:14:42,236 Speaker 1: that we're paid for. I look at Mary and go. 213 00:14:42,356 --> 00:14:45,036 Speaker 1: We can be in the middle of an argument and 214 00:14:45,236 --> 00:14:49,076 Speaker 1: I can trust, even with anger in the air, that 215 00:14:49,116 --> 00:14:52,356 Speaker 1: if I look at my stuff, she will look at 216 00:14:52,356 --> 00:14:56,596 Speaker 1: her stuff, or vice versa, that she is trustworthy to 217 00:14:56,756 --> 00:15:00,876 Speaker 1: see her part in any situation. It feels a lot 218 00:15:00,916 --> 00:15:04,716 Speaker 1: better to point over there and say you're wrong, and 219 00:15:04,796 --> 00:15:07,036 Speaker 1: this is what you've done to me, and I'm a victim, 220 00:15:07,076 --> 00:15:12,156 Speaker 1: and it feels so much better than to go, Okay, 221 00:15:14,156 --> 00:15:16,836 Speaker 1: here's my hab. I'm going to own up to it. 222 00:15:16,916 --> 00:15:20,356 Speaker 1: I mean, where's the fun in that? But the fact 223 00:15:20,396 --> 00:15:29,316 Speaker 1: that you do it is magic. We'll have more After 224 00:15:29,356 --> 00:15:43,876 Speaker 1: a quick break, we're back to our conversation with Ted 225 00:15:43,996 --> 00:15:49,156 Speaker 1: Danson and Mary steam Ergin. They've been together nearly thirty years, 226 00:15:49,676 --> 00:15:52,956 Speaker 1: so Marlowe wanted to know what happens when they hit 227 00:15:52,996 --> 00:15:55,596 Speaker 1: a rough spot. You do have to have something in 228 00:15:55,636 --> 00:15:58,516 Speaker 1: the bank to get you through those moments, and I 229 00:15:58,556 --> 00:16:00,836 Speaker 1: do have trust that on the other end of this 230 00:16:00,996 --> 00:16:03,116 Speaker 1: my wife. You know, if I walk away in the 231 00:16:03,116 --> 00:16:06,356 Speaker 1: middle of a fight and go, there's a voice going, 232 00:16:06,396 --> 00:16:09,116 Speaker 1: do you really think that your wife is not crazy? 233 00:16:09,116 --> 00:16:11,556 Speaker 1: See about you and love you? And I have to 234 00:16:11,556 --> 00:16:14,796 Speaker 1: go No, of course she does, you know, So there 235 00:16:15,196 --> 00:16:18,676 Speaker 1: there's something good about having a history of getting through, 236 00:16:18,796 --> 00:16:22,556 Speaker 1: a history of love, a history of knowing she loves you. 237 00:16:22,716 --> 00:16:28,516 Speaker 1: But yeah, usually it's for me. It's about finally telling 238 00:16:28,556 --> 00:16:31,276 Speaker 1: the truth that I don't want to tell, whether it's 239 00:16:31,316 --> 00:16:34,076 Speaker 1: I'm angry, I'm angry irrational at you. And if I 240 00:16:34,156 --> 00:16:36,916 Speaker 1: tell you I'm angry at this, then then how can 241 00:16:36,996 --> 00:16:40,156 Speaker 1: we be? You know, I grew up with a mother 242 00:16:40,276 --> 00:16:46,956 Speaker 1: who was unbelievable about the giving, the caring, the loving, 243 00:16:47,036 --> 00:16:50,436 Speaker 1: the nurturing. You're in pain, let me you know. She 244 00:16:50,476 --> 00:16:53,596 Speaker 1: could be with people dying, people came to her. But 245 00:16:53,676 --> 00:16:59,516 Speaker 1: anything negative, a negative thought, a selfish, petty, angry thought, 246 00:17:00,276 --> 00:17:03,956 Speaker 1: was intolerable. She would almost get sick, as you know, 247 00:17:04,036 --> 00:17:07,996 Speaker 1: she'd have a cold, the flu. As opposed to dealing 248 00:17:08,036 --> 00:17:12,996 Speaker 1: with her angers. You know, anything that was dealing with 249 00:17:13,076 --> 00:17:15,556 Speaker 1: anger for you was hard huge still is you know 250 00:17:15,716 --> 00:17:19,116 Speaker 1: or anything where I mean we just said, both of 251 00:17:19,196 --> 00:17:24,996 Speaker 1: us for different, very different reasons. We both had come 252 00:17:25,716 --> 00:17:31,556 Speaker 1: from families where there was it was it was fully loaded. 253 00:17:31,596 --> 00:17:37,396 Speaker 1: That anger was scary, you know, both of us, And 254 00:17:36,876 --> 00:17:40,476 Speaker 1: and that was one of the things before I met him, 255 00:17:40,516 --> 00:17:43,836 Speaker 1: I recognized him myself. I realized it. I first went 256 00:17:43,876 --> 00:17:47,876 Speaker 1: to therapy and the first thing I learned on day 257 00:17:47,916 --> 00:17:53,676 Speaker 1: one was how how I had not been able to 258 00:17:53,756 --> 00:17:56,796 Speaker 1: express anger, that there was no room for it, no 259 00:17:56,996 --> 00:18:00,196 Speaker 1: place for it, that it was not appropriate in my life. 260 00:18:00,876 --> 00:18:04,756 Speaker 1: And for real, yeah, I came from I didn't mean 261 00:18:04,796 --> 00:18:09,556 Speaker 1: to interrupt you, no, no, I mean my dad was 262 00:18:09,556 --> 00:18:13,596 Speaker 1: a freight train conductor and I grew up in Arkansas, 263 00:18:14,396 --> 00:18:17,956 Speaker 1: and that would have been a nice, little middle class 264 00:18:19,556 --> 00:18:23,516 Speaker 1: family except that my dad, when I was eight years old, 265 00:18:23,756 --> 00:18:27,316 Speaker 1: was diagnosed diagnosed with heart disease, and in those days, 266 00:18:30,116 --> 00:18:33,476 Speaker 1: they they dealt with it in very weird ways. He 267 00:18:33,636 --> 00:18:36,996 Speaker 1: was basically told, you can't work, you can't hunt, you 268 00:18:37,036 --> 00:18:39,996 Speaker 1: can't fish, you can't drive, you can't make love to 269 00:18:40,036 --> 00:18:44,716 Speaker 1: your wife, you can't They took everything you can eat, 270 00:18:44,956 --> 00:18:48,036 Speaker 1: no problem with bacon, oh my god, you know. Like, 271 00:18:48,196 --> 00:18:51,596 Speaker 1: and my dad was one of these people that would 272 00:18:51,636 --> 00:18:56,356 Speaker 1: do exactly what his doctor told him, so, you know 273 00:18:56,676 --> 00:19:01,116 Speaker 1: his basically they gave him not much reason to live, 274 00:19:01,396 --> 00:19:05,356 Speaker 1: but that was supposed to keep him alive. And so 275 00:19:06,316 --> 00:19:11,156 Speaker 1: when the doctor told us, I was there with my mother, 276 00:19:12,436 --> 00:19:17,196 Speaker 1: and the doctors looked at us, and I remember him 277 00:19:17,196 --> 00:19:19,756 Speaker 1: looking at me and saying, now you'd be a good girl. 278 00:19:19,916 --> 00:19:23,756 Speaker 1: Now you know your daddy needs you to be a 279 00:19:23,756 --> 00:19:27,236 Speaker 1: good girl and keep everything quiet and you know, and 280 00:19:27,396 --> 00:19:30,436 Speaker 1: basically the eight year old went, I get it. I 281 00:19:30,476 --> 00:19:33,036 Speaker 1: can't ignoise, I can't do anything wrong, I can't make 282 00:19:33,036 --> 00:19:35,516 Speaker 1: a mistake, or my dad's going to die. Got it? 283 00:19:35,836 --> 00:19:38,196 Speaker 1: Oh my god. And it was backed up with eight 284 00:19:38,236 --> 00:19:41,716 Speaker 1: heart attack. And then my dad proceeded to have heart attack, 285 00:19:42,036 --> 00:19:44,996 Speaker 1: a heart attack, and during that time he couldn't work. 286 00:19:45,156 --> 00:19:51,476 Speaker 1: So we became, you know, we struggled. Yeah, and so 287 00:19:52,036 --> 00:19:58,316 Speaker 1: uh so my mother became it was it was always 288 00:19:58,356 --> 00:20:00,516 Speaker 1: looking at your dad to see if he's really one 289 00:20:00,596 --> 00:20:03,316 Speaker 1: hundred percent of the time. That was my childhood. And 290 00:20:03,356 --> 00:20:06,036 Speaker 1: then he would have a heart attack, like one was 291 00:20:06,116 --> 00:20:08,716 Speaker 1: when I got to be one. You know that I 292 00:20:08,796 --> 00:20:11,876 Speaker 1: knew what I had done to cause each one. So 293 00:20:12,436 --> 00:20:18,916 Speaker 1: the good news about that story is that my world 294 00:20:18,996 --> 00:20:26,556 Speaker 1: that was safe was books. Just by reading. Emotions were suppressed. Yeah, 295 00:20:26,596 --> 00:20:29,516 Speaker 1: but not in books. In books, it was like and 296 00:20:29,676 --> 00:20:33,916 Speaker 1: my favorite as a child, like my hero was Pippi Longstocking, 297 00:20:33,956 --> 00:20:38,996 Speaker 1: who was like wild and redheaded and wore shoes too 298 00:20:38,996 --> 00:20:42,436 Speaker 1: big for self, social gwiggler toes and you know, I 299 00:20:42,516 --> 00:20:45,916 Speaker 1: loved all that because it was the opposite of what 300 00:20:46,596 --> 00:20:49,676 Speaker 1: I was being. So when you got a hold of 301 00:20:49,756 --> 00:20:52,516 Speaker 1: your anger when you went to all this therapy on 302 00:20:52,636 --> 00:20:56,316 Speaker 1: day one of therapy, which was when I was twenty 303 00:20:56,316 --> 00:21:00,396 Speaker 1: four years old, and this woman on day one goes, 304 00:21:00,516 --> 00:21:03,556 Speaker 1: oh my god, well, no wonder you became an actress. 305 00:21:03,636 --> 00:21:06,356 Speaker 1: Of course, that's your safe place, that's the way, you know. 306 00:21:07,156 --> 00:21:12,236 Speaker 1: And so learning how to be a fully actualized human 307 00:21:12,316 --> 00:21:20,876 Speaker 1: being that actually could experience things other than sweet Southern smiles, 308 00:21:21,356 --> 00:21:23,956 Speaker 1: you know, that was a huge thing for me. And 309 00:21:24,116 --> 00:21:27,956 Speaker 1: I think for a while I got angry too quickly. 310 00:21:29,236 --> 00:21:34,756 Speaker 1: It's like a the switch was too It was maladjusted, 311 00:21:34,876 --> 00:21:37,196 Speaker 1: all of them, you know. And part of what I've 312 00:21:37,196 --> 00:21:41,996 Speaker 1: had to learn to do is just be centered with it. Well, 313 00:21:42,036 --> 00:21:44,636 Speaker 1: let me do have a real fight. We have had 314 00:21:44,716 --> 00:21:50,636 Speaker 1: some huntingers and I've accused him before a fight. I said, 315 00:21:50,676 --> 00:21:56,716 Speaker 1: your ma, your main like a junkyard dog and um. 316 00:21:57,596 --> 00:22:02,236 Speaker 1: But the truth is we both hate it. So if 317 00:22:02,236 --> 00:22:06,556 Speaker 1: you had to say, what's the foundation that makes a 318 00:22:06,636 --> 00:22:11,276 Speaker 1: marriage last other than love, I would say truth and laughter. Yeah, 319 00:22:11,316 --> 00:22:14,756 Speaker 1: honestly those two things for us. And the hard work 320 00:22:14,836 --> 00:22:18,396 Speaker 1: part is tell the truth. Yeah, because that's that's that's 321 00:22:18,476 --> 00:22:24,076 Speaker 1: uncomfortable at times. Yeah. What what when is it uncomfortable 322 00:22:24,116 --> 00:22:26,916 Speaker 1: to tell the truth when it's not going to feel 323 00:22:26,916 --> 00:22:28,596 Speaker 1: good to the other person, or when it's going to 324 00:22:28,676 --> 00:22:31,836 Speaker 1: make you look bad, or when you've done something that 325 00:22:31,956 --> 00:22:35,916 Speaker 1: you you know, I'm going to have to tell Mary. Shoot, 326 00:22:36,356 --> 00:22:38,556 Speaker 1: you know, because now I can't ride in on my 327 00:22:38,596 --> 00:22:41,436 Speaker 1: white horse and be wonderful and noble. I'm an asshole 328 00:22:41,916 --> 00:22:44,116 Speaker 1: and I just proved it. Now I'm gonna have to 329 00:22:44,116 --> 00:22:45,996 Speaker 1: share this with me. Why do you have to share 330 00:22:45,996 --> 00:22:52,716 Speaker 1: it with Mary because otherwise I well, the because we 331 00:22:52,836 --> 00:22:56,156 Speaker 1: kind of have an agreement unspoken or spoken agreement to 332 00:22:56,716 --> 00:22:59,996 Speaker 1: share it, to not have secrets. So it's not that 333 00:23:00,796 --> 00:23:03,836 Speaker 1: I need to share it to get blessing or permission 334 00:23:03,916 --> 00:23:05,676 Speaker 1: or something. I need to share it so I don't 335 00:23:05,676 --> 00:23:09,516 Speaker 1: have this little inside of me people, And I think 336 00:23:09,556 --> 00:23:13,716 Speaker 1: these are really ruicy secrets. Whatever it is. Now, I know, 337 00:23:13,916 --> 00:23:17,836 Speaker 1: did you have secrets in the beginning? No? No, I 338 00:23:17,876 --> 00:23:20,636 Speaker 1: think that's what was unique about the relationship for each 339 00:23:20,676 --> 00:23:23,996 Speaker 1: of us. I'd never not had secrets. I'd been full 340 00:23:23,996 --> 00:23:28,396 Speaker 1: of secrets, But for us, I think we had both 341 00:23:29,076 --> 00:23:32,396 Speaker 1: kind of had enough of secrets. You know, we had 342 00:23:32,436 --> 00:23:38,356 Speaker 1: both lived that way and it had caused us to 343 00:23:38,396 --> 00:23:42,636 Speaker 1: feel alone in life. You know, he knows my warts. 344 00:23:42,796 --> 00:23:47,116 Speaker 1: He knows exactly how smart or not smart, or kind 345 00:23:47,196 --> 00:23:51,116 Speaker 1: or not kind, or how impatient a person I am. 346 00:23:51,356 --> 00:23:54,636 Speaker 1: He knows all that. Sometimes it's not that there's a 347 00:23:54,716 --> 00:23:58,036 Speaker 1: secret between you, that there's a sadness that you haven't 348 00:23:58,116 --> 00:24:01,356 Speaker 1: looked at inside of yourself that you you know, hey, 349 00:24:01,396 --> 00:24:05,476 Speaker 1: i'm getting older. This I'm feeling sad about getting older, 350 00:24:05,716 --> 00:24:08,556 Speaker 1: and I'm embarrassed to tell you that I'm dead. All 351 00:24:08,596 --> 00:24:11,876 Speaker 1: that's good, all those things from But I think also 352 00:24:12,076 --> 00:24:15,076 Speaker 1: and no, two people would be more perfect to say this, 353 00:24:15,236 --> 00:24:22,396 Speaker 1: dude than you two as famous people, the world either 354 00:24:22,756 --> 00:24:28,036 Speaker 1: criticizes a romanticize issue. There's not it's rare or doable. Yeah, 355 00:24:28,196 --> 00:24:33,316 Speaker 1: it's rare that they would just like your realness and 356 00:24:33,436 --> 00:24:37,196 Speaker 1: here you are very imperfect person. That's if I had 357 00:24:37,236 --> 00:24:40,316 Speaker 1: to say, the thing we're most protective of in life, 358 00:24:40,636 --> 00:24:43,596 Speaker 1: it's that we keep it real. So that and and 359 00:24:43,836 --> 00:24:47,396 Speaker 1: I and I, you know, you also recognize in people. 360 00:24:47,876 --> 00:24:50,236 Speaker 1: For me, it's like my mother had a lot of things. 361 00:24:50,276 --> 00:24:53,116 Speaker 1: It was complicated, but there were so many wonderful things 362 00:24:53,116 --> 00:24:56,236 Speaker 1: about her that I see and marry. You know, there's 363 00:24:56,276 --> 00:25:02,116 Speaker 1: a deep kindness and caring, you know, about people. I 364 00:25:02,156 --> 00:25:05,396 Speaker 1: don't think I could be with somebody who didn't feel 365 00:25:05,436 --> 00:25:10,156 Speaker 1: that way. We had a divine intervention and here we are. 366 00:25:10,396 --> 00:25:14,356 Speaker 1: But but but it's also but these are little pigs along 367 00:25:14,396 --> 00:25:18,636 Speaker 1: the way that you've said that it's it's it feels 368 00:25:18,636 --> 00:25:21,756 Speaker 1: like magic, but it isn't, because there are these things 369 00:25:21,796 --> 00:25:25,836 Speaker 1: that you count on each other for. I completely count 370 00:25:26,396 --> 00:25:28,596 Speaker 1: on Phil. And I'm not what one would call a 371 00:25:28,716 --> 00:25:34,276 Speaker 1: needy little person, but I need something from him, many things. 372 00:25:34,276 --> 00:25:36,916 Speaker 1: But one of the things that I need is when 373 00:25:36,956 --> 00:25:41,036 Speaker 1: I'm when I go down, when I get blue about 374 00:25:41,076 --> 00:25:43,236 Speaker 1: all of these things, you know, out of work, i'm 375 00:25:43,276 --> 00:25:45,756 Speaker 1: getting older, whatever it is that I choose to be 376 00:25:45,796 --> 00:25:52,356 Speaker 1: blue about that day, only Phil can can bring me back. 377 00:25:53,116 --> 00:25:55,716 Speaker 1: And I'm from Hollywood, so I know a bullshitter when 378 00:25:55,716 --> 00:25:58,436 Speaker 1: I see one, you know, what he says to me, 379 00:25:59,156 --> 00:26:03,716 Speaker 1: you know, it's just it's immediately I respond to it, 380 00:26:03,996 --> 00:26:08,076 Speaker 1: you know, and I come back. He waters my plant, 381 00:26:08,676 --> 00:26:12,236 Speaker 1: you know, and I come back, you know, so and 382 00:26:12,356 --> 00:26:18,956 Speaker 1: I count on it. Gratitude is huge for me, you know. Yeah, 383 00:26:19,036 --> 00:26:23,116 Speaker 1: it's okay to be wanting more and different bees, be 384 00:26:23,276 --> 00:26:27,796 Speaker 1: grateful and celebrate. You know. The first thing I wrote 385 00:26:27,796 --> 00:26:31,396 Speaker 1: in an autobiography I wrote in nineteen seventy eight. The 386 00:26:31,556 --> 00:26:35,916 Speaker 1: first line is if I could start over as a parent, 387 00:26:36,236 --> 00:26:39,916 Speaker 1: and I wish I could. When my children please me, 388 00:26:40,956 --> 00:26:44,276 Speaker 1: I would tell them it's tough because when you how 389 00:26:44,316 --> 00:26:46,796 Speaker 1: old were you? When? At what age are you talking about? 390 00:26:46,836 --> 00:26:48,836 Speaker 1: For yourself? When you didn't when you all of a 391 00:26:48,916 --> 00:26:55,636 Speaker 1: sudden had four sons by your son twenty seven? Wow, 392 00:26:56,236 --> 00:26:59,356 Speaker 1: smack dab into Can I carve out a place in 393 00:26:59,356 --> 00:27:02,756 Speaker 1: the world? Can I do this? So you're so forward looking? 394 00:27:03,316 --> 00:27:06,316 Speaker 1: It's also in a show every day, But parenting is 395 00:27:06,356 --> 00:27:11,276 Speaker 1: a lousy job for a perfectionists or to even have 396 00:27:11,836 --> 00:27:17,796 Speaker 1: satisfaction because it's just everybody's doing the best they can. 397 00:27:18,236 --> 00:27:23,276 Speaker 1: You know, Can I add one thing and no be 398 00:27:23,396 --> 00:27:30,076 Speaker 1: quiet ed? Um? I My my form of seduction early 399 00:27:30,156 --> 00:27:35,156 Speaker 1: in life was to find the person's gaping hole in 400 00:27:35,236 --> 00:27:39,276 Speaker 1: their personality or their being and then fill it and 401 00:27:39,316 --> 00:27:43,076 Speaker 1: become indispensable to them. You know. So I know a 402 00:27:43,076 --> 00:27:47,436 Speaker 1: lot of guys like you. So I was like around 403 00:27:47,436 --> 00:27:50,916 Speaker 1: a lot of kind of broken wing, wounded kind of people, 404 00:27:51,236 --> 00:27:55,076 Speaker 1: and don't do that you know, find somebody who's playing 405 00:27:55,156 --> 00:27:58,636 Speaker 1: at the same level you are. That's that's actually find 406 00:27:58,676 --> 00:28:03,716 Speaker 1: somebody that likes being who they are. Yes, that's better. Yeah, 407 00:28:03,756 --> 00:28:07,476 Speaker 1: that's great, But that's also very interesting. What you're saying 408 00:28:07,636 --> 00:28:11,436 Speaker 1: is great that the find somebody who likes who they are. Yes, 409 00:28:11,636 --> 00:28:15,356 Speaker 1: that's They might not think they're perfect, it might need help, 410 00:28:15,476 --> 00:28:21,236 Speaker 1: man then, but they basically they're not running from who 411 00:28:21,276 --> 00:28:25,156 Speaker 1: they are. Life is not a series of pointing fingers 412 00:28:25,156 --> 00:28:27,716 Speaker 1: and blaming. So you're not going to be the one 413 00:28:27,756 --> 00:28:30,196 Speaker 1: to save them. No, you're not. You're going to change. 414 00:28:30,756 --> 00:28:33,276 Speaker 1: That's what's great about the book. Every will. You're not 415 00:28:33,276 --> 00:28:36,476 Speaker 1: going to change somebody. You'll never fix the broken wing. 416 00:28:36,996 --> 00:28:40,636 Speaker 1: I met somebody who is so happy being herself. She 417 00:28:40,756 --> 00:28:43,636 Speaker 1: needed me to show up and be me and be real, 418 00:28:44,196 --> 00:28:46,676 Speaker 1: but she didn't need me to fix her. And I've 419 00:28:46,716 --> 00:28:51,996 Speaker 1: done a lot of fixing, which leads to anger. You know. Inequality, Yeah, 420 00:28:52,076 --> 00:28:56,436 Speaker 1: inequality patronizing, and it's horrible when you think you're the 421 00:28:56,516 --> 00:29:00,516 Speaker 1: person fixing somebody else. It sucks and it's terrible to them, 422 00:29:00,516 --> 00:29:03,956 Speaker 1: it's terrible to you. And you know, find somebody you 423 00:29:03,956 --> 00:29:08,516 Speaker 1: don't have to fix. Great when we're in love and 424 00:29:08,556 --> 00:29:12,876 Speaker 1: then two and communicative and laughing in life. When we're 425 00:29:12,996 --> 00:29:15,596 Speaker 1: that how we are most of the time, it is 426 00:29:15,836 --> 00:29:21,916 Speaker 1: truly divine. It is it is heaven on earth. That's 427 00:29:21,956 --> 00:29:25,716 Speaker 1: Ted Danson and Mary Steam Virgin. They sure we're fun 428 00:29:26,076 --> 00:29:29,436 Speaker 1: and so in love with each other. It was pretty 429 00:29:29,476 --> 00:29:32,556 Speaker 1: idea like I would be jealous, but I have you. 430 00:29:32,556 --> 00:29:36,796 Speaker 1: You most certainly do until next time. I'm Phil Donnie 431 00:29:36,836 --> 00:29:44,796 Speaker 1: and I'm Marlow Thomas. Okay, I win. What you should 432 00:29:44,836 --> 00:29:46,516 Speaker 1: do is leave one of the mics on when you're 433 00:29:46,596 --> 00:29:56,316 Speaker 1: leaving those two pretending that they like each other. Double 434 00:29:56,396 --> 00:29:59,836 Speaker 1: Data is a production of Pushkin Industries. The show was 435 00:29:59,876 --> 00:30:04,076 Speaker 1: created by US and produced by Sarah Lily. Michael Bahari 436 00:30:04,476 --> 00:30:08,156 Speaker 1: is associate producer. Musical adaptations of It Had to Be 437 00:30:08,276 --> 00:30:13,956 Speaker 1: You by Sellwagen, Simfinette, Marlo and I are executive producers, 438 00:30:13,996 --> 00:30:19,556 Speaker 1: along with Mia Lobel and Letal Molad from Pushkin. Special 439 00:30:19,596 --> 00:30:25,476 Speaker 1: thanks to Jacob Weisberg, Malcolm Gladwell, Hither Fame, John Snars, 440 00:30:25,556 --> 00:30:32,156 Speaker 1: Carl Migliori, Eric Sandler, Emily Rostek, Jason Gambrel, Paul Williams, 441 00:30:32,396 --> 00:30:37,076 Speaker 1: and Bruce Kluger. If you like our show, please remember 442 00:30:37,116 --> 00:30:41,116 Speaker 1: to share, rate and review Thanks for listening