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Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Molly John Fast and this is Fast Politics,

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Speaker 1: where we discussed the top political headlines with some of

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Speaker 1: today's best minds and Marjorie Taylor Green mark September eleventh

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Speaker 1: by suggesting Red States seceed from the US and calling

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Speaker 1: President Biden a trader. We have such a great show

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Speaker 1: for you today. The Texas Tribunes Patrick spy Tech stops

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Speaker 1: by to tell us all about Texas Attorney General Ken

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Speaker 1: Paxton's impeachment hearing and the comic relief it has provided us.

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Speaker 1: Then we will talk to Brennett Center for Justices Michael

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Speaker 1: Waldman about all the fuckery and the Supreme Court. But

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Speaker 1: first we have the author of the Big Lie pod

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Speaker 1: Save Americas, Dan Pfeiffer. Welcome back to Fast Politics.

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Speaker 2: Dan, good to be here.

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Speaker 1: We needed you asap and I was literally like, this

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Speaker 1: is an emergency. This is a Dan emergency, and you

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Speaker 1: were writing about it, and you were talking about it,

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Speaker 1: and you were you about it, and you've also been here before.

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Speaker 1: So we are going through the worst news cycle ever,

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Speaker 1: which is the national polls have Biden close to Trump

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Speaker 1: news cycle. Biden must drop out discuss well, I actually was.

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Speaker 3: This has caused me to think back to a very

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Speaker 3: dark period of time in my life, which was this

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Speaker 3: exact period in twenty eleven when Barack Obama was in

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Speaker 3: a tie with the generic Republican in public polling but

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Speaker 3: losing to a generic Republican and are much more precise

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Speaker 3: and better internal campaign polling DC. We didn't freak out

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Speaker 3: at the same level back then because twenty sixteed had

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Speaker 3: not yet happened, but people were freaking out. Doug shown

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Speaker 3: in Pat Caddell to one time Democratic polsters wrote in

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Speaker 3: up ed in The Wall Street Journal calling on Barack

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Speaker 3: Obama to drop out in favor of the much more

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Speaker 3: electable Hillary Clinton, which is something that has amazing The

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Speaker 3: main argument in that was it a Hiler Clip was

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Speaker 3: more electable, would be that Republicans liked her better, so

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Speaker 3: they'd be more willing to work with her if she

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Speaker 3: was elected president than Obama.

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Speaker 1: Wait, I just fainted. I'm sorry.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, it's really an artifact of its time.

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Speaker 3: But so this is not an unusual situation. In fact,

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Speaker 3: Chris Hayes pointed this out on his show last week,

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Speaker 3: that Reagan was tied with Mondale at this exact point

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Speaker 3: in his presidency and Clinton was tied with Dole at

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Speaker 3: this exact point that president's see and so there is

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Speaker 3: precedent for incumbent presidents being in this polling position than

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Speaker 3: winning in fact, quite large landslide victories like Reagan who

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Speaker 3: ended up winning forty nine states. I always want to

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Speaker 3: find a way into situations like us to fit somewhere between.

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Speaker 3: You don't want to be complacent about it, because there

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Speaker 3: are some real warning signs here that all of us

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Speaker 3: should take heat of, but also not panicking because we're

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Speaker 3: fourteen months out from the election and we've been here before.

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Speaker 1: Tell me what the warning signs are.

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Speaker 3: If you look at the polls right now, there are

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Speaker 3: three or four things that I think are worth otting.

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Speaker 3: One is Joe Biden's age is a big concern. It

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Speaker 3: is a big concern for a lot of voters. Now,

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Speaker 3: is that a solible concern? You would like to think so,

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Speaker 3: you know, he will have fourteen months to prove that

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Speaker 3: he is doing the job well now it can continue

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Speaker 3: to do it for four years. And how he performs

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Speaker 3: on the campaign trail, particularly in high leverage moments like debates,

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Speaker 3: in convention speeches and stay of the union will go

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Speaker 3: a long way there. So that's point one. Point two

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Speaker 3: is that and Nay codn wrote a really good piece

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Speaker 3: of all the starchives, is that Joe Biden is currently

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Speaker 3: underperforming with voters of color, particularly black voters and Latino

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Speaker 3: voters without a college education. There is not really a

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Speaker 3: path to an electoral college victory without improving on where

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Speaker 3: he is today. He doesn't have to get to where

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Speaker 3: Barack Obama was in twenty twelve or two thousand and eight,

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Speaker 3: but he's got to be doing better than next is

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Speaker 3: young voters. Biden is struggling with young voters, and the

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Speaker 3: biggest issue is not someone is not that they're going

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Speaker 3: to vote for Trump, that is not happening, but that

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Speaker 3: they are either expressing significant openness to a third party

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Speaker 3: candidate or are stating as of right now that they

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Speaker 3: will not vote if the choice is Biden indro And

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Speaker 3: even among voters twenty five to thirty nine in the

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Speaker 3: New York Times poll, sixteen percent of them would either

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Speaker 3: not vote or vote for someone other than Joe Biden.

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Speaker 1: And that is where a Green Party can today. Yes,

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Speaker 1: like Cornew West, who's camp, who's my first cousin, Peter

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Speaker 1: dw who I recently unfollowed on Twitter is working for

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Speaker 1: and he will suck up that vote.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. In fact, there's an Emerson College poll of Iowa

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Speaker 3: that is out today, you know, sometime this week came

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Speaker 3: out this week that where Cornell West is getting five

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Speaker 3: percent of the vote and for that for those five

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Speaker 3: points are coming away coming from Biden. Now does that

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Speaker 3: matter in Iowa? No, I don't think four points is

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Speaker 3: going to be the difference in Iowa. But you know

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Speaker 3: one point is a difference in six states.

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Speaker 1: Right, So tell me what are the reasons to feel

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Speaker 1: like we shouldn't drive the car off the road and

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Speaker 1: end it all?

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Speaker 3: I mean, the reasons we should drive the car to

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Speaker 3: be hyperbolic Arnie, Right, Robbian, That's basically where a lot

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Speaker 3: of people are right now is as they're freaking out,

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Speaker 3: they are looking for other candidates. They're lamenting wh I

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Speaker 3: know and ran against Biden. Here's the thing. You have

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Speaker 3: to look at these polls this far out not as

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Speaker 3: a prediction of the election, but a roadmap of how

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Speaker 3: you get to where you want to be on election.

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Speaker 3: And I believe that this will be an incredibly close election.

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Speaker 3: You know, my tortured, tired metaphor is that we should

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Speaker 3: prepare as if this election will be decided across four

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Speaker 3: or five states by fewer people than attended a Tailor

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Speaker 3: Swift concert. Like that's how it is, right, It was

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Speaker 3: sixty thousand and forty thousand people this time, sixty thousand

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Speaker 3: people the time before. This is going to be incredibly close.

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Speaker 3: You would probably rather be I think in that scenario,

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Speaker 3: Joe Biden, as we see here today, is the slightest

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Speaker 3: of favorites in that essentially coin flip with Trump, and

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Speaker 3: that for a couple of reasons. One incompacy matters. It

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Speaker 3: is a huge advantage.

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Speaker 1: And that's one of the reasons that Republicans really want

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Speaker 1: by now, is because they'd rather have someone who's not

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Speaker 1: the incumbent.

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Speaker 3: They would rather have twenty nine Democrats averaging each other

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Speaker 3: for the next six months as opposed to Joe Biden

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Speaker 3: spending you know, taking these polls and we're all freaking

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Speaker 3: out about I imagine since the Biden campaigns on the

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Speaker 3: air and the primary Biden superback us on the air,

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Speaker 3: their polls say something similar to what we're seeing publicly,

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Speaker 3: and they so they now they know we have fourteen

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Speaker 3: months to bring these bring the Biden coalition back into

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Speaker 3: the fold to rebuild the majority that one in twenty

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Speaker 3: twenty and one in twenty twenty two. That is a

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Speaker 3: much prefer for You'd rather be doing that than either

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Speaker 3: Biden being challenged by someone and running around Iowa, New

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Speaker 3: Hampshire for the next few months or this free for

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Speaker 3: all battle. I mean, does anyone want to revisit the

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Speaker 3: twenty twenty Democratic primary?

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Speaker 1: Republicans?

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Speaker 3: Right?

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Speaker 1: Exactly?

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Speaker 3: None of us do, right, And so that's one. Two

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Speaker 3: we don't really know, and I think this is why

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Speaker 3: we all need to bring some significant humility to using

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Speaker 3: past precedent and how we talk about these things is

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Speaker 3: we just don't know how much things have changed over

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Speaker 3: the last election or two because of sort of the

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Speaker 3: rise of magic extremism, sort of a hyper speeding up

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Speaker 3: of polarization since twenty sixteen, and the pandemic. And so

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Speaker 3: reason number two that you would feel good or slightly

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Speaker 3: better about Biden is the economy as it looks today,

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Speaker 3: for as unhappy as people are about it, and there

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Speaker 3: are some sciences that people are starting to feel a

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Speaker 3: little bit better, is consistent with the sort of economy

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Speaker 3: that incumbents get reelected. It Now, obviously the polling shows

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Speaker 3: that Biden has to do a lot to convince people

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Speaker 3: about what he's done to take advantage of that. But

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Speaker 3: that is there. And you'd much rather be running for

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Speaker 3: reelection in an economy with historically low unemployment, wages that

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Speaker 3: are creeping up, in costs that are creeping down, and

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Speaker 3: an economy that's growing than the opposite, right, And that

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Speaker 3: seemed like the opposite seemed like a real possibility six

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Speaker 3: or nine months ago. And the map is slightly more

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Speaker 3: favorable to Biden. Right. The states that Biden needs to win,

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Speaker 3: the six battleground states, with the exception of twenty sixteen,

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Speaker 3: voted for Democrats most of the time, are particularly Arizona

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Speaker 3: and Georgia, are trending demographically in a more blue direction,

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Speaker 3: and they performed well in twenty twenty two. And that's

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Speaker 3: a very positive sign because that means that there was

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Speaker 3: not a lot of times you see states like oh,

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Speaker 3: you know, Obama one Indiana and North Carolina in two

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Speaker 3: thousand and eight, and those states immediately snapped back Republican

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Speaker 3: right afterwards, and that did not happen in Georgia, Arizona.

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Speaker 3: They re elected Democrats in the midterms and what should

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Speaker 3: have been a very tough election of Democrats fighting just

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Speaker 3: simply has more paths to two seven. So he has

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Speaker 3: structural advantages that you don't see in the polls. But

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Speaker 3: the thing here is that this is we all just

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Speaker 3: have to recognize, and I think a lot of people

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Speaker 3: are coming to terms with it now because these polls

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Speaker 3: are out, is that Donald Trump can absolutely win this selection.

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Speaker 3: He absolutely can. He can do it with ninety one

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Speaker 3: and felony indictments. He can do it with several felony

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Speaker 3: convictions if he's not serving from prison. That is the reality.

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Speaker 3: And I think a lot of people really hoped that

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Speaker 3: one he could not win after everything he did, and

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Speaker 3: then that we would not live in a country where

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Speaker 3: a man with ninety one felony indictments related to trying

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Speaker 3: to violently overturn an election and steel classified documents could

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Speaker 3: be a flip from the presidency. And that's sort of

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Speaker 3: where we are. That's probably where we always were, just

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Speaker 3: now we've now we're now we're aware of it.

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Speaker 1: I want to take you back for a minute and

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Speaker 1: just talk about how unprecedented it would be to remove

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Speaker 1: an incumbent president from office and have a primary contest

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Speaker 1: right now. I mean there is no roadmap for this.

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Speaker 1: Talk about that for a minute, yeah.

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Speaker 3: I mean you mean removed as if for Biden, for

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Speaker 3: someone to try to take on Biden and beat him.

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Speaker 1: Right it says, well, you know, he's overperformed in the

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Speaker 1: midterms in twenty twenty, we've seen these special elections. He's overperformed.

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Speaker 1: But because he's three years older than Trump, let's do

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Speaker 1: a full primary contest.

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Speaker 3: Jonathan Chait in New York Magazine wrote this piece over

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Speaker 3: the weekend that was sort of like, why hasn't a

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Speaker 3: mainstream Democrat challenged by not RFK Junior or Mary Williamson,

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Speaker 3: but someone like Keavin Newsom, JB. Prisker, Kreshian Witmer, Elizabeth Warren,

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Speaker 3: Bernie if someone who has a credible case to actually

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Speaker 3: win a Democratic primary. And the reason these people have

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Speaker 3: not done it because they all want to be president,

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Speaker 3: some of them have run for president before, some of

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Speaker 3: them will certainly run for president in the future, is

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Speaker 3: that they would almost certainly lose, almost certainly lose Joe Biden.

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Speaker 3: For all of everyone's panic and worry and talks about

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Speaker 3: how he's how you know, the need for a Promray

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Speaker 3: and all of that is Joe Biden is, and this

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Speaker 3: is I think this would blow people away because we

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Speaker 3: talk about Trump as if he is the cult leader

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Speaker 3: who can lead Republicans off a cliff. Right now, in

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Speaker 3: the polls, Donald Trump's approb rating among Republicans is seventy

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Speaker 3: seven percent. Joe Biden's approble rating among Republicans, and the

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Speaker 3: New York Times well was also seventy seven percent.

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Speaker 1: That is unbelievable.

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Speaker 3: Yes, so, and you're seeing on the Republican side how

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Speaker 3: hard it is to run a primary campaign against someone

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Speaker 3: who nearly eight and ten party members like you wouldn't

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Speaker 3: win that race. I don't think any of these people

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Speaker 3: could beat Joe Biden. That's why they're not running. And

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Speaker 3: they're not running because no one wants to lose. If

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Speaker 3: you lose, your career is probably over. But also, people

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Speaker 3: have a belief, based on history, that a primary challenge

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Speaker 3: makes it more likely that the combent will lose in

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Speaker 3: the general election. We believe that because and I will

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Speaker 3: stipulate that every presidential election analogy suffers from a small

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Speaker 3: sample sized problem. But the three incumbents have lost reelection

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Speaker 3: in modern American history. Two of those three, Jimmy Carter

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Speaker 3: and George Wish did so after a very divisive ideological

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Speaker 3: primary challenge. The only one who did was Donald Trump,

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Speaker 3: who brought his own set of promos to the table.

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Speaker 3: But so this belief is if you challenge, you probably

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Speaker 3: can't beat Biden. And if you try, then you will

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Speaker 3: probably make it more likely that Trump wins. And no

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Speaker 3: one who cares about the country, cares, or even cares

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Speaker 3: about their own political career would do such a thing.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. I think that's a really important data point that

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Speaker 1: those people who are having anxiety attacks need to remember,

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Speaker 1: is that this is not doable. The thing that I

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Speaker 1: keep thinking about is this idea that like, we've spent

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Speaker 1: so much time obsessing about polls. I mean, you'll remember,

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Speaker 1: right before the mid terms, we were told that Republicans

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Speaker 1: were going this is going to be the biggest Republican

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Speaker 1: blowout ever. I just don't really trust polls. Of is

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Speaker 1: this my moral failing discuss.

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Speaker 3: No, it's I don't think it's a moral failing on.

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Speaker 3: I think if someone wants to say I don't care

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Speaker 3: about polls, this far out for because polls have been

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Speaker 3: wrong a lot of times recently, and they change a lot.

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Speaker 3: And I just gave you know earlier in this three

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Speaker 3: examples of incumbent presidents who won reelection with relatives who

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Speaker 3: were at this exact same place in the polls, and

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Speaker 3: that's probably a healthy way of going about life. My

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Speaker 3: argument is we should look at polls seriously, not The

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Speaker 3: point here is not that Joe Biden is up by

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Speaker 3: one or he's down by one. What the polls tell

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Speaker 3: us are this is going to be a close race.

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Speaker 3: The Trump's legal problems are not going to be a

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Speaker 3: deal breaker for a large part of his electorate. Biden

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Speaker 3: has some real work to do to rebuild his coalition

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Speaker 3: to be able to win. He's underperforming with people that

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Speaker 3: he got in twenty twenty. He's got to fix that.

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Speaker 3: And he absolutely can win. And there's no evidence in

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Speaker 3: the pulse that either that Biden can't win or that

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Speaker 3: some other person would be necessarily be better than because

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Speaker 3: Biden's electibility argument is quite strong because he beat Donald

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Speaker 3: Trump last time, and then, as you pointed out, in

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Speaker 3: every political test since then, Democrats have done well with

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Speaker 3: him at the top of the ticket. So that makes

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Speaker 3: it even another reason why it'd be hard for someone

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Speaker 3: else to come in and try to make the opposite case.

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Speaker 3: The thing I will say about twenty twenty two because

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Speaker 3: a lot of people have responded these poles saying, well,

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Speaker 3: the polls predicted a red wave that didn't come, and

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Speaker 3: so the polls must be missing something post Dobs that

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Speaker 3: Dobbs awakened, which Dobbs definitely did awaken political movement in

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Speaker 3: this country. But if you really go back and look

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Speaker 3: at the poles in twenty twenty two, they actually were

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Speaker 3: historically accurate. The problem was the analysis of the red wave.

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Speaker 3: The problem is analytical, not mathematical. Everyone looked at the economy,

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Speaker 3: the map, history, Joe Biden's approval ratings, and then believed

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Speaker 3: that the red wave would happened anyway, even though the

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Speaker 3: polls were quite close. If you want to ignore the poles,

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Speaker 3: ignore them. If you want to look at them and

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Speaker 3: pay attention to them, you should not find ways to

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Speaker 3: dismiss them to fit our more desired narrative. Because I

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Speaker 3: think the polls do paint an accurate picture of where

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Speaker 3: this race is today, and they offer us a road

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Speaker 3: wrap on how to get it where we want it

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Speaker 3: to be. Fourteen months from now.

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Speaker 1: Let's talk about a Republican who is helping the Democrats

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Speaker 1: right now. His name is Kevin McCarthy.

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Speaker 3: Yes, yes, yes, yes, and.

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Speaker 1: He is ready to impeach Joe Biden for dot dot

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Speaker 1: dot dot.

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Speaker 3: Oh, he's going to find out eventually, he's.

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Speaker 1: Going to find out. But let's talk about this. The

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Speaker 1: thing I am struck by is Nancy Belosi was anxious

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Speaker 1: about impeaching Trump because she remembered nineteen ninety eight eight. Obviously,

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Speaker 1: Kevin McCarthy does.

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Speaker 3: Not or remember twenty eighteen or twenty nineteen.

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Speaker 1: Tell me your hot take on what is happening here.

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Speaker 3: Kevin McCarthy is throwing everything against the wall that he

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Speaker 3: possibly can to save his job. Kevin McCarthy is putting

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Speaker 3: I mean not to mention in sort of the integrity

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Speaker 3: of our fundament of our governing system at stake, but

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Speaker 3: he's putting his majority and the Republican Party's chances in

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Speaker 3: the twenty twenty four presidential election at risk, or to

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Speaker 3: keep his own job. Because you know, as the reason Ny,

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Speaker 3: Nancy post was exactly right to be nervous about embarking

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Speaker 3: on peachment. It was the morally correct thing to do,

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Speaker 3: and I think Democrats would have suffered if they had

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Speaker 3: walked away from that moral obligation. But politically, Donald Trump's

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Speaker 3: numbers went up during impeachment, and I my suspicion is

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Speaker 3: that Republicans continue to go down this path, that Joe

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Speaker 3: Biden's numbers will go up in part because he's underperforming

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Speaker 3: with people who like him and voted for him before.

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Speaker 3: And so what more, what is you know? I it'd

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Speaker 3: be hard to imagine a better way that to bring

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Speaker 3: Democrats home to Biden than a Marjorie Taylor Green ordered

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Speaker 3: in Peachman inquiry over nothing.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it does seem incredible. I would also want to

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Speaker 1: point out Republicans have this House of Representatives by four seats.

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Speaker 1: It seems like there's a Santos Plea deal in the works,

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Speaker 1: so that would mean a special in a Biden knee district.

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Speaker 1: McCarthy is also talking about something that makes a party

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Speaker 1: wildly popular, a government shutdown discuss.

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Speaker 3: Well, I mean the original Kevin McCarthy. I mean, I

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Speaker 3: really think he is one of the dumbest human beings

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Speaker 3: to ever serve in a position of high political leadership

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Speaker 3: of the United States. And that's saying a lot because just

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Speaker 3: all the ways in which he screwed this up. Are

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Speaker 3: serve unbelievable. His original the only original reason he opened

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Speaker 3: the impeachment can of worms was to keep the government open,

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Speaker 3: because he was going to go to the far right

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Speaker 3: and say, look, I know you're you don't want to

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Speaker 3: vote to keep the government open, but if you have

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Speaker 3: to do that, because otherwise we have to shut down

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Speaker 3: this in peachment in query, you care so much about it,

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Speaker 3: Except Kevin McCarthy either didn't realize didn't think the MAGA

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Speaker 3: Republicans read the fine print. Because the impeachment query does

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Speaker 3: not have to shut down. If they shut down the government,

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Speaker 3: one person in the House Representives gets to decide what

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Speaker 3: stays open to what doesn't, and that person is Kevin McCarthy,

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Speaker 3: and so they can pressure him to do that. Just

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Speaker 3: think about how this plays out. Right, They embark on

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Speaker 3: this impeachmenticquarerer, they hold high profile hearings, they go looking,

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Speaker 3: they find nothing, and so they don't even hold the vote,

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Speaker 3: which seems like a pretty good talking point for Biden

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Speaker 3: when he's pushing back on Republican accusations of corruption and

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Speaker 3: a hunter bullshit or whatever else. Or they hold a vote,

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Speaker 3: vote fails, seems even worse for Republicans. Hold the vote

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Speaker 3: passes on a party line vote over nothing, and that

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Speaker 3: also helps Biden, as it probably helped Trump in twenty twenty.

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Speaker 3: And there are nineteen, maybe eighteen, if George Santos Hesseliva's seat,

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Speaker 3: nineteen Republicans in Biden's seats, and those nineteen Republicans have

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Speaker 3: to decide between voting to impeach Joe Biden. And they're

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Speaker 3: going to need to get people who vote Biden at

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Speaker 3: the top of the ticket to vote for them to

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Speaker 3: keep them in the House or vote against impeachment, or

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Speaker 3: walk away from impeachment and repose it and infuriate the

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Speaker 3: Republican basis turnout. They also there is no way in

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Speaker 3: which this turns out well for Kevin mcarthy. He is

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Speaker 3: just in galaxy, braided himself into a corner.

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Speaker 1: Yeah all right, well, I like it, love to see it.

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Speaker 1: Thank you so much, Dan for joining us.

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Speaker 3: Of course, happy to do it as always.

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Speaker 1: Patrick's Vitech is a political correspondent at the Texas Tribune.

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Speaker 1: Welcome to Fast Politics, Patrick cevi Tech, Thank you so

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Speaker 1: much for having me, so delighted to have you. You

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Speaker 1: are covering what is perhaps not the trial of the century,

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Speaker 1: but in my mind it is so explain to our

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Speaker 1: listeners a little bit about what this trial is, how

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Speaker 1: it came into being, and whatever backstory you want to

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Speaker 1: give us.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 4: So this is the Texas Senate impeachment trial of Ken Paxton,

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Speaker 4: who is currently the suspended Attorney General of Texas. The

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Speaker 4: state House voted to impeach him in and the way

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Speaker 4: it works in Texas is once the House votes to

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Speaker 4: impeach you, you're immediately suspended from office. And so this

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Speaker 4: Senate trial will determine whether he is permanently removed from office.

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Speaker 4: The governor has appointed in term attorney General in the meantime,

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Speaker 4: but this Senate trial is all about the whether Ken

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Speaker 4: Paxton will be permanently removed from office. He faced twenty

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Speaker 4: articles of impeachment in the House. Much of the case

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Speaker 4: against him goes back to twenty twenty, when several of

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Speaker 4: his top deputies at the time reported him to the

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Speaker 4: FBI and reported concerns they had about his relationship with

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Speaker 4: a man named Nate Paul, who is at the time

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Speaker 4: was an Austin real estate investor and in twenty eighteen

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Speaker 4: had been a kind of mid level campaign donor to

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Speaker 4: Ken Paxton, and the allegations basically boiled down to Paxton

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Speaker 4: and Paul got too close, and there's alleged bribery in

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Speaker 4: that relationship. There is an alleged extramarital affair between Paxton

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Speaker 4: and a woman that is also tied up in that

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Speaker 4: relationship with Nate Paul, and so much of the case

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Speaker 4: we're hearing against Paxton does center on that relationship that

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Speaker 4: was reported to the FBI in twenty twenty by those

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Speaker 4: former copy deputies in his office.

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Speaker 1: Okay, I want to stop you and go back for

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Speaker 1: a minute. Is Texas estate where Republicans, where one party

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Speaker 1: impeaches the age of that same party, or now give

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Speaker 1: us this sort of backstory here.

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Speaker 4: This is unprecedented in that it's an impeachment of the

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Speaker 4: attorney general. We've never had an impeachment of the attorney

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Speaker 4: general before. This is just the third time that we're

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Speaker 4: having an impeachment trial in Texas's one hundred and fifty

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Speaker 4: year plus history.

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Speaker 3: So it is a very historic moment.

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Speaker 4: You know, it is the first trial I think we've

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Speaker 4: had in more than a quarter of a century. There's

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Speaker 4: very high stakes here, and I think that we have rarely,

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Speaker 4: if not seldom, in modern political history in Texas have

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Speaker 4: we seen the ruling party try to hold one of

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Speaker 4: their own accountable like this. It is just that politically

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Speaker 4: is just un her model political history in Texas.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. Now let's talk about Ken Paxton's wife, Angela Paxton.

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Speaker 1: She is a Texas State Senator but cannot vote in

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Speaker 1: these proceedings. Just explain to me a little bit. This

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Speaker 1: seems like this marriage might be in trouble.

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Speaker 4: Well, the way that the two of them tell it,

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Speaker 4: or the way that the people close to them tell it.

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Speaker 4: You know, Ken Paxton confessed to this affair to his

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Speaker 4: top aides back in late twenty twenty. Angela Paxton, his wife,

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Speaker 4: was at his side at the time that he did that.

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Speaker 4: And I believe that they have since then tried to

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Speaker 4: present a united front. And I know that you know,

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Speaker 4: to a lot of people that feels unnatural and awkward,

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Speaker 4: but it does seem like something that they have worked

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Speaker 4: out in their marriage. Of course, this trial is putting

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Speaker 4: all these really painful details back on full display, and

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Speaker 4: so I don't want to claim to have any insight

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Speaker 4: into the state of their marriage as of this moment,

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00:22:04,600 --> 00:22:07,600
Speaker 4: right because this is a very painful experience for both them,

439
00:22:07,600 --> 00:22:09,120
Speaker 4: and I assume especially for her.

440
00:22:09,320 --> 00:22:11,879
Speaker 1: But sort of more importantly, they've stayed married.

441
00:22:12,520 --> 00:22:15,320
Speaker 4: They have stayed married, and they did both appear at

442
00:22:15,320 --> 00:22:18,400
Speaker 4: a political event in their home county on the Saturday

443
00:22:18,400 --> 00:22:21,400
Speaker 4: before this trial started, and you know, in my view,

444
00:22:21,440 --> 00:22:25,679
Speaker 4: made a very deliberate show of affection and made a

445
00:22:25,720 --> 00:22:28,920
Speaker 4: point of appearing jointly at that event and embracing one

446
00:22:28,960 --> 00:22:31,640
Speaker 4: another and showing that they were a united front going

447
00:22:31,680 --> 00:22:32,000
Speaker 4: into this.

448
00:22:32,240 --> 00:22:35,879
Speaker 1: And again, she cannot vote in these proceedings because I

449
00:22:35,920 --> 00:22:39,960
Speaker 1: guess of her marital status or her involvement in this story.

450
00:22:40,000 --> 00:22:42,480
Speaker 1: But she is a member of the body that will

451
00:22:42,520 --> 00:22:43,399
Speaker 1: vote to remove him.

452
00:22:43,560 --> 00:22:44,160
Speaker 3: That is correct.

453
00:22:44,240 --> 00:22:46,639
Speaker 4: Yeah, she has been a state senator since, oh, I

454
00:22:46,680 --> 00:22:50,360
Speaker 4: believe twenty seventeen, twenty eighteen, in this Senate, and there

455
00:22:50,520 --> 00:22:53,639
Speaker 4: was when the Senate passed the trial rules back in June.

456
00:22:53,680 --> 00:22:57,160
Speaker 4: They passed a recusal rule that didn't mention her by name,

457
00:22:57,240 --> 00:23:00,000
Speaker 4: but basically said, anybody who's a spouse of a party

458
00:23:00,840 --> 00:23:04,600
Speaker 4: the impeachment who serves in this chamber cannot vote in it,

459
00:23:04,640 --> 00:23:07,119
Speaker 4: but they can't attend. And under my reading of the

460
00:23:07,440 --> 00:23:09,560
Speaker 4: law and constitution, they have to attend. There is a

461
00:23:09,840 --> 00:23:11,439
Speaker 4: I believe it's either in the state law or in

462
00:23:11,440 --> 00:23:15,119
Speaker 4: the state constitution that during an impeachment proceeding in the Senate,

463
00:23:15,359 --> 00:23:19,920
Speaker 4: every senator has to be present. And so the Rules

464
00:23:19,960 --> 00:23:21,840
Speaker 4: Committee in the Senate, the committee that was coming up

465
00:23:21,840 --> 00:23:24,399
Speaker 4: with these rules, was kind of in this unenviewable position

466
00:23:24,400 --> 00:23:27,479
Speaker 4: because there was such a glaring conflict of interest in

467
00:23:27,520 --> 00:23:30,000
Speaker 4: their ranks. But at the same time, you know, I

468
00:23:30,000 --> 00:23:33,840
Speaker 4: think the law requires that each thirty one senator has

469
00:23:33,840 --> 00:23:34,280
Speaker 4: to be there.

470
00:23:34,480 --> 00:23:36,920
Speaker 1: I want to pull back from and talk about Ken

471
00:23:37,000 --> 00:23:41,680
Speaker 1: Paxton's role in Trump world. He was sort of the

472
00:23:41,720 --> 00:23:45,560
Speaker 1: most trumpy aga. Can you talk about some of the

473
00:23:45,600 --> 00:23:50,479
Speaker 1: ways in which he expressed his undying field date to Trump.

474
00:23:50,720 --> 00:23:53,160
Speaker 4: Yeah, he actually was, you know, to take it even

475
00:23:53,200 --> 00:23:56,520
Speaker 4: farther back, he was actually in the twenty sixteen presidential

476
00:23:56,520 --> 00:23:59,560
Speaker 4: election cycle. You know, he was, I believe, a line

477
00:23:59,560 --> 00:24:03,080
Speaker 4: with Ted Cruise until you know, the summer of twenty sixteen,

478
00:24:03,440 --> 00:24:04,880
Speaker 4: you know, and he was actually, you know, I think

479
00:24:04,880 --> 00:24:07,680
Speaker 4: among statewide office holders one of the people who held

480
00:24:07,720 --> 00:24:10,320
Speaker 4: out longer back then. I mean, you know, Texas was

481
00:24:10,359 --> 00:24:13,879
Speaker 4: still Ted Cruz country back then. Ted Cruz was probably

482
00:24:13,920 --> 00:24:16,280
Speaker 4: a bigger star in Texas back then than he is

483
00:24:16,280 --> 00:24:20,720
Speaker 4: today in terms of the Republican primary electorate. Paxton, though

484
00:24:20,800 --> 00:24:23,360
Speaker 4: ultimately gone on board with Trump when he became president,

485
00:24:23,800 --> 00:24:27,679
Speaker 4: worked to defend or be supportive of different Trump policies

486
00:24:27,720 --> 00:24:29,879
Speaker 4: when they went to court. And of course, you know,

487
00:24:29,920 --> 00:24:32,040
Speaker 4: it all leads up to in twenty twenty his most

488
00:24:32,080 --> 00:24:35,280
Speaker 4: you know, probably his most famous, you know lawsuit on

489
00:24:35,320 --> 00:24:38,440
Speaker 4: the national level, which was that lawsuit he filed trying

490
00:24:38,440 --> 00:24:42,000
Speaker 4: to get the US Supreme Court to reverse the Trump's

491
00:24:42,040 --> 00:24:45,720
Speaker 4: reelection loss in for battlegrout States. And so that lawsuit

492
00:24:45,760 --> 00:24:49,800
Speaker 4: in twenty twenty, I think really cemented his status as

493
00:24:49,840 --> 00:24:52,679
Speaker 4: you know, one of the most pro Trump Attorneys general

494
00:24:53,200 --> 00:24:56,080
Speaker 4: out there. And you know, it continued. The embrace of

495
00:24:56,119 --> 00:25:00,160
Speaker 4: Trump continued into his re election race in twenty twenty two,

496
00:25:00,920 --> 00:25:04,240
Speaker 4: when he was facing a number of prominent challengers, including

497
00:25:04,280 --> 00:25:05,720
Speaker 4: the Land Commissioner at the time.

498
00:25:05,600 --> 00:25:06,000
Speaker 3: George P.

499
00:25:06,200 --> 00:25:06,480
Speaker 2: Bush.

500
00:25:06,720 --> 00:25:07,040
Speaker 3: George P.

501
00:25:07,200 --> 00:25:10,440
Speaker 4: Bush was the first major challenger to declare against Paxton

502
00:25:10,520 --> 00:25:13,280
Speaker 4: back in twenty twenty one, and for a while there,

503
00:25:13,320 --> 00:25:15,720
Speaker 4: Trump kind of teased the idea that he could actually

504
00:25:16,040 --> 00:25:16,720
Speaker 4: endorse George P.

505
00:25:16,880 --> 00:25:17,160
Speaker 2: Bush.

506
00:25:17,160 --> 00:25:18,840
Speaker 4: I mean, he made a statement saying that he was

507
00:25:18,960 --> 00:25:21,960
Speaker 4: you know, watching the race and likes Ken Paxton. But

508
00:25:21,960 --> 00:25:25,600
Speaker 4: I'll have a decision soon. But ultimately, you know, Trump

509
00:25:25,760 --> 00:25:29,320
Speaker 4: endorsed Ken Paxton for reelection in that twenty twenty two primary,

510
00:25:29,680 --> 00:25:32,760
Speaker 4: and even though it went to a runoff against Bush,

511
00:25:32,920 --> 00:25:35,200
Speaker 4: Paxton defeated him saldly. And you know, I do think

512
00:25:35,240 --> 00:25:38,560
Speaker 4: Trump's endorsement early on in that race was pretty critical

513
00:25:38,720 --> 00:25:41,080
Speaker 4: to that primary not being that competitive at the end

514
00:25:41,080 --> 00:25:41,959
Speaker 4: of the day for Paxton.

515
00:25:42,240 --> 00:25:45,960
Speaker 1: But Ken Baxton did try. He was one of the

516
00:25:46,359 --> 00:25:51,280
Speaker 1: attorneys generals who tried to overturn the twenty twenty election.

517
00:25:51,720 --> 00:25:53,119
Speaker 4: Yeah, and like I said, I mean that is I

518
00:25:53,160 --> 00:25:55,879
Speaker 4: think a lot of people got introduced to him nationally

519
00:25:56,240 --> 00:25:59,600
Speaker 4: with that lawsuit he filed in December twenty twenty. I

520
00:25:59,600 --> 00:26:03,640
Speaker 4: believe obviously was you know, unsuccessful personally, it endeared him

521
00:26:03,640 --> 00:26:06,200
Speaker 4: to Trump even more. There was a lot of speculation

522
00:26:06,280 --> 00:26:08,520
Speaker 4: at the time that he was so endeared to Trump

523
00:26:08,560 --> 00:26:11,560
Speaker 4: as a result of that that maybe Trump was going

524
00:26:11,600 --> 00:26:13,520
Speaker 4: to parton him on his way out of office or

525
00:26:13,560 --> 00:26:16,760
Speaker 4: something like that. Because just various legal problems Ken Paxson

526
00:26:16,800 --> 00:26:19,440
Speaker 4: has had over his career, So that really I think

527
00:26:19,520 --> 00:26:21,640
Speaker 4: endeared him to Trump. And I do think it was,

528
00:26:21,760 --> 00:26:25,439
Speaker 4: you know, a political ploy to you know, really cement

529
00:26:25,560 --> 00:26:29,760
Speaker 4: himself in some ways as you know, a new rising

530
00:26:29,840 --> 00:26:32,639
Speaker 4: figure and kind of the pro Trump, you know, mega movement.

531
00:26:32,960 --> 00:26:37,159
Speaker 1: I know I shouldn't be so obsessed with Ken Paxton's lawyer,

532
00:26:38,040 --> 00:26:42,760
Speaker 1: but I'm a little bit obsessed with Tony Busby. First

533
00:26:42,760 --> 00:26:46,880
Speaker 1: of all, I know that Tanning is a choice, and

534
00:26:47,000 --> 00:26:51,560
Speaker 1: he has made this choice to tan very intensely. But

535
00:26:52,040 --> 00:26:57,840
Speaker 1: he also says kind of incredible, incredible stuff that like

536
00:26:57,920 --> 00:27:00,280
Speaker 1: feels like it's right at a saturn end lot. I've

537
00:27:00,520 --> 00:27:04,280
Speaker 1: imagined if we impeached everyone in Austin who'd had an affair,

538
00:27:04,880 --> 00:27:08,199
Speaker 1: we'd be impeaching people for the next hundred years. We

539
00:27:08,280 --> 00:27:11,840
Speaker 1: also heard him say imagine what did he say? Something

540
00:27:12,000 --> 00:27:16,040
Speaker 1: like if taking a campaign contribution were illegal, you'd all

541
00:27:16,080 --> 00:27:18,120
Speaker 1: be in jail. Talk to me, I mean he feels

542
00:27:18,720 --> 00:27:19,600
Speaker 1: like a performer.

543
00:27:20,080 --> 00:27:21,040
Speaker 3: Yeah, absolutely so.

544
00:27:21,119 --> 00:27:25,760
Speaker 4: Tony Busby is a very prominent criminal defense attorney also

545
00:27:25,800 --> 00:27:29,800
Speaker 4: practices on varias, but an attorney out of Houston, long time,

546
00:27:30,160 --> 00:27:33,679
Speaker 4: known as a big personality. He ran and he's no

547
00:27:33,760 --> 00:27:36,480
Speaker 4: stranger to politics. I should say, he ran for Houston

548
00:27:36,560 --> 00:27:41,040
Speaker 4: mayor in twenty nineteen. He ultimately lost, but he self

549
00:27:41,080 --> 00:27:44,960
Speaker 4: funded his campaign and brought the incumbent mayor at the time,

550
00:27:45,119 --> 00:27:47,760
Speaker 4: Sylvester Turner, to a runoff. And so it was a

551
00:27:47,800 --> 00:27:52,400
Speaker 4: contentious and you know, relatively competitive race. And even before that,

552
00:27:52,640 --> 00:27:57,160
Speaker 4: people in politics probably knew him as Rick Perry's defense attorney.

553
00:27:57,320 --> 00:28:01,640
Speaker 4: When Rick Perry was indicted in in fourteen twenty fifteen

554
00:28:01,680 --> 00:28:05,120
Speaker 4: for abusive office, you know, for some some funding he vetoed.

555
00:28:05,320 --> 00:28:09,600
Speaker 4: Buzzby successfully defended Perry in that case, and Perry got

556
00:28:09,640 --> 00:28:12,920
Speaker 4: the indictment dismissed. So this Buzzby is someone who has

557
00:28:13,160 --> 00:28:16,040
Speaker 4: been known for years both in the political and legal

558
00:28:16,080 --> 00:28:18,320
Speaker 4: worlds in Texas, especially.

559
00:28:18,040 --> 00:28:18,960
Speaker 3: In the Houston area.

560
00:28:19,000 --> 00:28:21,080
Speaker 4: And as you point out, I mean he's known for

561
00:28:21,480 --> 00:28:25,760
Speaker 4: his showmanship, being bombastic, potentially getting a rise out of people.

562
00:28:25,800 --> 00:28:28,399
Speaker 4: And I think you're you know this, this trial I

563
00:28:28,440 --> 00:28:31,399
Speaker 4: think actually gives him kind of the you know, the

564
00:28:31,600 --> 00:28:34,960
Speaker 4: biggest sandbox for it. You know, Yet, because you don't

565
00:28:35,000 --> 00:28:40,680
Speaker 4: necessarily have the traditional guardrails around lawyers, you know, rhetorical

566
00:28:40,720 --> 00:28:43,280
Speaker 4: flourishes that you may have in a an actual formal

567
00:28:43,520 --> 00:28:47,000
Speaker 4: courtroom setting, I mean, Buzzby I think has definitely been

568
00:28:47,040 --> 00:28:50,480
Speaker 4: able to take advantage of some of the looser parameters

569
00:28:50,600 --> 00:28:53,400
Speaker 4: of this trial to really let his you know, to

570
00:28:53,520 --> 00:28:56,000
Speaker 4: really just be himself, I think, and be a big

571
00:28:56,040 --> 00:28:58,040
Speaker 4: personality and be propocative.

572
00:28:58,400 --> 00:29:01,360
Speaker 1: Yeah. I mean, it really does seem like he's kind

573
00:29:01,400 --> 00:29:03,560
Speaker 1: of the star of this trial.

574
00:29:03,400 --> 00:29:05,720
Speaker 4: For the average person tuning in, I do you think

575
00:29:05,720 --> 00:29:08,680
Speaker 4: he may stand out as the star? So yeah, for

576
00:29:08,960 --> 00:29:11,760
Speaker 4: those of us who've been watching politics for a while

577
00:29:11,840 --> 00:29:15,280
Speaker 4: in Texas, you know, we know he's This is to

578
00:29:15,320 --> 00:29:17,400
Speaker 4: be expected with him. And I should note as far

579
00:29:17,400 --> 00:29:20,240
Speaker 4: as his political life is concerned, he's also actively running

580
00:29:20,520 --> 00:29:23,120
Speaker 4: for a seat on the Houston City Council in the

581
00:29:23,160 --> 00:29:27,640
Speaker 4: November twenty pre election while he is dealing with this

582
00:29:27,720 --> 00:29:29,680
Speaker 4: case in the Senate, so he's got a lot on

583
00:29:29,680 --> 00:29:30,040
Speaker 4: his plate.

584
00:29:30,560 --> 00:29:33,440
Speaker 1: First, I want you to talk us through what, because

585
00:29:33,600 --> 00:29:37,040
Speaker 1: not all of us are completely versed in the laws

586
00:29:37,280 --> 00:29:42,040
Speaker 1: of the Texas state government, what happens now in this trial.

587
00:29:42,560 --> 00:29:45,360
Speaker 4: So this trial is going to probably wrap up the

588
00:29:45,480 --> 00:29:47,920
Speaker 4: end of this week Thursday or Friday, because there are

589
00:29:47,960 --> 00:29:50,200
Speaker 4: time limits on each side. So there's a finite amount

590
00:29:50,240 --> 00:29:52,520
Speaker 4: of time each side gets to make their case, and

591
00:29:52,600 --> 00:29:55,120
Speaker 4: you know, at that point the case will go to

592
00:29:55,160 --> 00:29:58,080
Speaker 4: the jury, which are the thirty senators who get a vote,

593
00:29:58,120 --> 00:30:00,520
Speaker 4: excluding Angela Packson because she doesn't get vote, and she

594
00:30:00,520 --> 00:30:03,719
Speaker 4: also doesn't get to participate in jury deliberations. So at

595
00:30:03,720 --> 00:30:06,640
Speaker 4: that point, those thirty senators, they're going to start deliberating

596
00:30:06,640 --> 00:30:08,960
Speaker 4: this behind closed doors. You know, that was one of

597
00:30:09,000 --> 00:30:12,240
Speaker 4: the stipulations in the trial rules that all jury deliberations

598
00:30:12,600 --> 00:30:15,200
Speaker 4: will be private, So they're not going to be debating

599
00:30:15,200 --> 00:30:17,000
Speaker 4: this out in the open for us to see their

600
00:30:17,000 --> 00:30:19,520
Speaker 4: thought process. So they're going to go behind closed doors.

601
00:30:19,520 --> 00:30:22,240
Speaker 4: The Lieutenant governor has said that he's going to keep

602
00:30:22,280 --> 00:30:24,720
Speaker 4: the senators in Austin until they come up with a verdict.

603
00:30:24,720 --> 00:30:26,800
Speaker 4: They're not going to, you know, break for the weekend

604
00:30:26,800 --> 00:30:28,960
Speaker 4: that I assume, you know that they'll break up the

605
00:30:29,040 --> 00:30:30,480
Speaker 4: end of the day, go home and go to sleep,

606
00:30:30,800 --> 00:30:32,960
Speaker 4: but this is, you know, it's going to be through

607
00:30:33,000 --> 00:30:35,240
Speaker 4: the weekend until they come up with a verdict, and

608
00:30:35,320 --> 00:30:37,600
Speaker 4: at that point they'll come back to the court room

609
00:30:37,640 --> 00:30:39,560
Speaker 4: and it'll you know, I do think it'll resemble what

610
00:30:39,640 --> 00:30:42,400
Speaker 4: you typically see in a high profile, you know, criminal trial,

611
00:30:42,440 --> 00:30:45,480
Speaker 4: where you know, there'll be a somber reading off of

612
00:30:45,560 --> 00:30:49,120
Speaker 4: the individual charges in this case, the individual articles of impeachment.

613
00:30:49,200 --> 00:30:52,400
Speaker 4: There'll be an announcement of the vote to convict Paxton

614
00:30:52,600 --> 00:30:56,880
Speaker 4: on any article of impeachment requires two thirds of the

615
00:30:56,960 --> 00:31:01,160
Speaker 4: total body, so that Angela Paxton does count towards the

616
00:31:01,200 --> 00:31:04,040
Speaker 4: denominator of that, so that is two thirds of thirty one.

617
00:31:04,400 --> 00:31:07,760
Speaker 4: So that means they need twenty one votes to convict

618
00:31:07,840 --> 00:31:11,080
Speaker 4: him on an article. There are twelve Democrats in the

619
00:31:11,160 --> 00:31:14,160
Speaker 4: State Senate, and then there are, as we just talked about,

620
00:31:14,240 --> 00:31:17,760
Speaker 4: there are eighteen who can vote, So that means if

621
00:31:17,760 --> 00:31:20,640
Speaker 4: all twelve Democrats vote, you know, want to convict him,

622
00:31:21,000 --> 00:31:23,880
Speaker 4: half the remaining Republicans have to side with the Democrats

623
00:31:23,920 --> 00:31:26,080
Speaker 4: to get to I believe twenty one.

624
00:31:26,400 --> 00:31:28,040
Speaker 1: Does that seem like it's possible.

625
00:31:28,400 --> 00:31:30,880
Speaker 4: I do think it's possible. So we had a series

626
00:31:30,920 --> 00:31:34,360
Speaker 4: of pre trial motions to dismiss before this trial all

627
00:31:34,400 --> 00:31:38,120
Speaker 4: got started, and those only required a majority vote, and

628
00:31:38,320 --> 00:31:41,400
Speaker 4: Paxton lost his efforts, you know, on all of those,

629
00:31:41,880 --> 00:31:44,400
Speaker 4: and we only saw depending on how you look at it,

630
00:31:44,480 --> 00:31:48,360
Speaker 4: a four or ceiling, but six Republican senators who consistently

631
00:31:48,440 --> 00:31:51,280
Speaker 4: voted for the pre trial motions to dismiss, and so

632
00:31:51,400 --> 00:31:51,720
Speaker 4: to me.

633
00:31:51,760 --> 00:31:54,280
Speaker 3: That suggested a lot of softness. You know.

634
00:31:54,320 --> 00:31:58,440
Speaker 4: That's again six out of eighteen who were firmly on

635
00:31:58,600 --> 00:32:01,320
Speaker 4: Paxton's side in the pre trial motions to dismiss so

636
00:32:01,400 --> 00:32:04,280
Speaker 4: at a minimum, that to me suggests, you know, obviously

637
00:32:04,320 --> 00:32:06,600
Speaker 4: a lot of people wanted to you know, a majority

638
00:32:06,640 --> 00:32:10,000
Speaker 4: of the Republican Caucus wanted to proceed to trial and

639
00:32:10,360 --> 00:32:12,719
Speaker 4: at least see the evidence and hear the testimony. So

640
00:32:12,720 --> 00:32:14,240
Speaker 4: that that suggested to me, there's a lot there was

641
00:32:14,280 --> 00:32:17,960
Speaker 4: a good amount of softness within the Republican Caucus that

642
00:32:18,000 --> 00:32:19,880
Speaker 4: there are a number of votes that are up for

643
00:32:19,920 --> 00:32:22,680
Speaker 4: grabs here. So I do think it's possible. It should

644
00:32:22,680 --> 00:32:25,440
Speaker 4: be noted that to be permanently removed from office, he

645
00:32:25,520 --> 00:32:27,560
Speaker 4: just has to be convicted on one of those articles

646
00:32:27,600 --> 00:32:30,080
Speaker 4: they're going to vote on, you know, article by article,

647
00:32:30,280 --> 00:32:32,640
Speaker 4: but is if he gets a two thirds vote, If

648
00:32:32,640 --> 00:32:34,520
Speaker 4: one of those articles gets a two thirds vote, he

649
00:32:34,600 --> 00:32:37,680
Speaker 4: is convicted and he's permanently removed from office. And then

650
00:32:37,720 --> 00:32:40,560
Speaker 4: there would be an additional vote on whether to disqualify

651
00:32:40,680 --> 00:32:43,760
Speaker 4: him from state office ever again, so he could not

652
00:32:43,920 --> 00:32:46,040
Speaker 4: run for his old job in the next selection.

653
00:32:46,400 --> 00:32:48,840
Speaker 1: Let me just ask you, now, what do you think

654
00:32:48,880 --> 00:32:52,960
Speaker 1: the larger implications are for this in Texas? Like could

655
00:32:53,040 --> 00:32:57,360
Speaker 1: this help a Senate candidate or does this help Republicans

656
00:32:57,360 --> 00:32:59,800
Speaker 1: I mean where I feel like Texas is one of

657
00:32:59,800 --> 00:33:01,800
Speaker 1: those places where if you don't live there, you don't

658
00:33:01,800 --> 00:33:03,120
Speaker 1: know what the fuck is going on.

659
00:33:04,800 --> 00:33:06,200
Speaker 4: But like I said at the beginning, I think this

660
00:33:06,320 --> 00:33:09,280
Speaker 4: continues to be striking for just how big of an

661
00:33:09,360 --> 00:33:13,360
Speaker 4: act of self policing this is by Texas Republicans. I

662
00:33:13,400 --> 00:33:17,320
Speaker 4: think that if he is convicted, primarily removed from office,

663
00:33:17,320 --> 00:33:20,440
Speaker 4: and even disqualified from running for state office again, that

664
00:33:20,520 --> 00:33:23,719
Speaker 4: will send the message that in this one party dominated

665
00:33:23,760 --> 00:33:26,920
Speaker 4: state that has at times grown too big a dominant,

666
00:33:27,040 --> 00:33:29,520
Speaker 4: you know, for its own good, that there is still

667
00:33:29,640 --> 00:33:32,080
Speaker 4: some real accountability to be had when one of their

668
00:33:32,160 --> 00:33:37,040
Speaker 4: leading figures has long running and well documented legal problems.

669
00:33:37,040 --> 00:33:38,880
Speaker 4: And so I think it will be somewhat of a

670
00:33:38,920 --> 00:33:41,800
Speaker 4: proud moment for the Texas Republican Party in that regard.

671
00:33:42,160 --> 00:33:44,880
Speaker 4: But as far as politics is concerned, it's hard for

672
00:33:44,920 --> 00:33:48,320
Speaker 4: me to see Paxton going away. Politically, of course, if

673
00:33:48,320 --> 00:33:52,280
Speaker 4: he is acquitted, he is more politically empowered than ever.

674
00:33:52,560 --> 00:33:55,520
Speaker 4: People are talking about him, you know, running for governor.

675
00:33:55,920 --> 00:33:58,960
Speaker 4: You know, he will be a huge star on the

676
00:33:59,280 --> 00:34:02,680
Speaker 4: pro Trump right. But even if he's convicted and permanently

677
00:34:02,720 --> 00:34:05,520
Speaker 4: removed from office, he could still have a political future.

678
00:34:05,560 --> 00:34:08,520
Speaker 4: And I believe that boat on disqualification only applies to

679
00:34:08,600 --> 00:34:11,120
Speaker 4: state office, so he could run for federal office. And

680
00:34:11,160 --> 00:34:13,759
Speaker 4: his supporters have already made you know, noise about him

681
00:34:13,800 --> 00:34:16,879
Speaker 4: potentially challenging US Senator John Hornan in twenty twenty six.

682
00:34:17,080 --> 00:34:18,720
Speaker 4: I guess to put it, you know, if the bottom

683
00:34:18,760 --> 00:34:22,000
Speaker 4: line is big picture, it would be an incredible act

684
00:34:22,040 --> 00:34:23,200
Speaker 4: of holding one of their own.

685
00:34:23,520 --> 00:34:26,200
Speaker 3: Texas Republicans holding one of their own accountable.

686
00:34:25,680 --> 00:34:26,160
Speaker 2: When it comes.

687
00:34:26,160 --> 00:34:28,400
Speaker 4: But when it comes to politics, I don't see this

688
00:34:28,880 --> 00:34:31,239
Speaker 4: meaning either way that he goes away anytime soon.

689
00:34:31,440 --> 00:34:35,600
Speaker 1: Okay, good, I mean not good. And the national implications

690
00:34:35,680 --> 00:34:37,040
Speaker 1: it's just too soon to say.

691
00:34:37,360 --> 00:34:37,640
Speaker 2: Yeah.

692
00:34:37,680 --> 00:34:40,520
Speaker 4: I mean, I think you know the national implications are.

693
00:34:40,560 --> 00:34:42,000
Speaker 4: I think you look for you look at it through

694
00:34:42,080 --> 00:34:44,239
Speaker 4: the lens of Trump. I mean, you know, Packson has

695
00:34:44,239 --> 00:34:47,400
Speaker 4: been such a stodge ally of Trump and so right.

696
00:34:47,360 --> 00:34:49,920
Speaker 1: So it'll help him in a Republican partner, right.

697
00:34:50,000 --> 00:34:53,239
Speaker 4: I would imagine that next year, regardless of whether he's

698
00:34:53,280 --> 00:34:55,520
Speaker 4: convicted or not, Paxton is going to be a loyal

699
00:34:55,560 --> 00:34:58,120
Speaker 4: surrogate for Trump no matter what. So someone you would

700
00:34:58,160 --> 00:34:59,520
Speaker 4: you would see in the camp danger.

701
00:34:59,280 --> 00:35:00,920
Speaker 1: Of incredible stuff.

702
00:35:01,120 --> 00:35:03,520
Speaker 3: Thank you, Patrick, Thank you so much for having me.

703
00:35:05,280 --> 00:35:09,640
Speaker 1: Michael Waldman is President and CEO of the Brennan Center

704
00:35:09,640 --> 00:35:13,680
Speaker 1: for Justice at the NYU School of lawd Welcome to

705
00:35:13,760 --> 00:35:14,759
Speaker 1: Vast Politics.

706
00:35:14,800 --> 00:35:16,319
Speaker 2: Michael, great to be with you.

707
00:35:16,760 --> 00:35:20,600
Speaker 1: Let's start by talking about exactly where we are right

708
00:35:20,640 --> 00:35:23,759
Speaker 1: now with the Supreme Court, because I feel like we

709
00:35:23,880 --> 00:35:28,000
Speaker 1: sort of are seeing scandal after scandal and unfold in

710
00:35:28,120 --> 00:35:31,279
Speaker 1: a kind of incredible way, and I was hoping you

711
00:35:31,320 --> 00:35:34,359
Speaker 1: could explain to us a little bit about how we

712
00:35:34,480 --> 00:35:36,920
Speaker 1: got to where we are with the Supreme Court.

713
00:35:37,280 --> 00:35:37,560
Speaker 3: Yeah.

714
00:35:37,640 --> 00:35:39,440
Speaker 2: You know, it's a big moment in the history of

715
00:35:39,480 --> 00:35:41,720
Speaker 2: the Court, and for those of us who care about

716
00:35:42,000 --> 00:35:44,360
Speaker 2: the Constitution and things like that, it's a big moment.

717
00:35:44,400 --> 00:35:48,120
Speaker 2: On all of that, We're now two years into this

718
00:35:48,400 --> 00:35:53,480
Speaker 2: super majority of six very conservative justices dominating the Court,

719
00:35:53,880 --> 00:35:57,640
Speaker 2: the court that has nine members, and this is unusual.

720
00:35:58,040 --> 00:36:02,200
Speaker 2: This was the product of yt Hence politicking and organizing

721
00:36:02,719 --> 00:36:06,400
Speaker 2: by the Federalist Society and other very well funded groups

722
00:36:06,120 --> 00:36:10,720
Speaker 2: to produce this supermajority, and they're now moving the Court

723
00:36:11,160 --> 00:36:14,600
Speaker 2: and the way it interprets the Constitution and therefore the

724
00:36:14,600 --> 00:36:18,440
Speaker 2: country in a very abrupt direction to the right, and

725
00:36:18,480 --> 00:36:21,600
Speaker 2: it's coming at a time when people are increasingly angry

726
00:36:21,640 --> 00:36:25,279
Speaker 2: about the decisions they're making, but also seeing them more

727
00:36:25,320 --> 00:36:28,719
Speaker 2: and more as a political body. And public trust in

728
00:36:28,760 --> 00:36:30,840
Speaker 2: the Court, by all the polls has collapsed to the

729
00:36:30,880 --> 00:36:34,560
Speaker 2: lowest level ever recorded. It's a real crisis of legitimacy

730
00:36:34,719 --> 00:36:36,680
Speaker 2: brought on the Court by its own actions.

731
00:36:37,040 --> 00:36:41,120
Speaker 1: Can you sort of take us back historically, because this

732
00:36:41,160 --> 00:36:44,719
Speaker 1: is not the first time that we see in a

733
00:36:44,920 --> 00:36:48,680
Speaker 1: very politicized court out of step with the rest of

734
00:36:48,680 --> 00:36:50,640
Speaker 1: the country. Can you talk about.

735
00:36:50,360 --> 00:36:52,200
Speaker 3: That You're absolutely right.

736
00:36:52,239 --> 00:36:55,400
Speaker 2: I mean, the Supreme Court has the power it has

737
00:36:55,719 --> 00:36:57,520
Speaker 2: because we give it that power. As a lot of

738
00:36:57,520 --> 00:36:59,480
Speaker 2: people say, it doesn't have an army, It can't really

739
00:36:59,600 --> 00:37:02,120
Speaker 2: enforce its own decisions. It only is able to act

740
00:37:02,200 --> 00:37:04,719
Speaker 2: as it does because we give it that trust. And

741
00:37:05,200 --> 00:37:08,640
Speaker 2: the part of the Constitution dealing with the federal courts

742
00:37:08,680 --> 00:37:11,040
Speaker 2: and the Supreme Court is only one tenth the length

743
00:37:11,640 --> 00:37:14,640
Speaker 2: of the part dealing with Congress and the President, the

744
00:37:14,680 --> 00:37:17,640
Speaker 2: elected branches. The idea that it's become this sort of

745
00:37:17,719 --> 00:37:21,319
Speaker 2: super legislature over these other branches has taken a long

746
00:37:21,360 --> 00:37:23,560
Speaker 2: time to happen. Now, the truth of the matter is,

747
00:37:24,080 --> 00:37:26,000
Speaker 2: when you look at the history of the country. Most

748
00:37:26,040 --> 00:37:30,800
Speaker 2: of the time, the Supreme Court basically reflects the consensus

749
00:37:30,840 --> 00:37:32,279
Speaker 2: in the country at the time, or at least the

750
00:37:32,520 --> 00:37:36,520
Speaker 2: elite consensus, the elite political consensus. It sort of hugs

751
00:37:36,520 --> 00:37:39,319
Speaker 2: the middle, and that's partly how it has kept its

752
00:37:39,440 --> 00:37:43,080
Speaker 2: credibility with people. But there were a few times, not many,

753
00:37:43,120 --> 00:37:46,440
Speaker 2: but a few times when it was extreme or unduly

754
00:37:46,520 --> 00:37:50,520
Speaker 2: activist or partisan, and then there was a really fierce pushback,

755
00:37:50,560 --> 00:37:54,560
Speaker 2: a really fierce, often very political response. It happened after

756
00:37:54,600 --> 00:37:58,839
Speaker 2: the dread Scott decision in eighteen fifty seven, which said

757
00:37:58,880 --> 00:38:02,560
Speaker 2: that Congress could not bar slavery from the territories and

758
00:38:02,680 --> 00:38:05,440
Speaker 2: even worse, that black people could not be citizens. The

759
00:38:05,520 --> 00:38:09,239
Speaker 2: response was so outraged that it elected Abraham Lincoln to

760
00:38:09,280 --> 00:38:12,160
Speaker 2: the presidency then ultimately helped bring on the Civil War.

761
00:38:12,640 --> 00:38:16,280
Speaker 2: He saw something similar when the Court at the beginning

762
00:38:16,320 --> 00:38:19,080
Speaker 2: of the twentieth century. The justices of that time, the

763
00:38:19,360 --> 00:38:22,120
Speaker 2: elitos of that court, they thought their job at a

764
00:38:22,120 --> 00:38:26,680
Speaker 2: time of industrialization and rising inequality, they thought their job

765
00:38:26,800 --> 00:38:29,080
Speaker 2: was to stop government and being able to do anything

766
00:38:29,200 --> 00:38:31,960
Speaker 2: to protect them. It was a huge fight, not just

767
00:38:32,320 --> 00:38:35,080
Speaker 2: we all kind of know about FDR in the end

768
00:38:35,080 --> 00:38:38,120
Speaker 2: when they were about to strike down social security in

769
00:38:38,160 --> 00:38:40,680
Speaker 2: other parts of the New Deal. But for years before then,

770
00:38:40,719 --> 00:38:45,279
Speaker 2: it was a big controversy when Teddy Roosevelt ran as

771
00:38:45,320 --> 00:38:48,400
Speaker 2: a third party candidate in the nineteen twelve election, and

772
00:38:48,440 --> 00:38:51,680
Speaker 2: it's this kind of storied election where he was challenging

773
00:38:51,680 --> 00:38:54,360
Speaker 2: his handpicked successor at Taft and Woodrow Wilson was the

774
00:38:54,400 --> 00:38:57,520
Speaker 2: Democrat and there was a socialist Teddy Roosevelt's big issue

775
00:38:57,560 --> 00:39:00,320
Speaker 2: was an attack on the Supreme Court and em and

776
00:39:00,440 --> 00:39:03,719
Speaker 2: right wing and reactionary rulings. And then the third time

777
00:39:03,760 --> 00:39:06,480
Speaker 2: where there was a backlash where the court was out

778
00:39:06,480 --> 00:39:09,320
Speaker 2: of step with the country eventually was the Warrant Court.

779
00:39:09,320 --> 00:39:12,080
Speaker 2: And that's you know, I like the decisions of the

780
00:39:12,080 --> 00:39:14,920
Speaker 2: Warrant Court. It began with Brown versus Board of Education,

781
00:39:15,440 --> 00:39:18,640
Speaker 2: but it did go very far, very fast at a

782
00:39:18,680 --> 00:39:21,239
Speaker 2: time of great social upheaval in the country, and it

783
00:39:21,280 --> 00:39:25,279
Speaker 2: did produce it's eventually a backlash, and that backlash is

784
00:39:25,280 --> 00:39:27,720
Speaker 2: what we're living into this day. I think we're seeing

785
00:39:27,719 --> 00:39:30,960
Speaker 2: something similar now where what this court is doing is

786
00:39:30,960 --> 00:39:34,279
Speaker 2: going to produce a massive political backlash that can help

787
00:39:34,400 --> 00:39:36,160
Speaker 2: reshape the country and the elections.

788
00:39:36,680 --> 00:39:45,160
Speaker 1: So let's talk about what it means to have sort

789
00:39:45,200 --> 00:39:47,720
Speaker 1: of the state we're in right now, where the court

790
00:39:47,920 --> 00:39:53,040
Speaker 1: has a lot of controversy and also a sort of

791
00:39:53,680 --> 00:39:57,719
Speaker 1: secret organization that's not that secret anymore, but that has

792
00:39:57,840 --> 00:40:01,960
Speaker 1: really unlimited financing. Will you talk to me about the

793
00:40:01,960 --> 00:40:05,279
Speaker 1: Federal Society and a little bit about how that sort

794
00:40:05,280 --> 00:40:08,000
Speaker 1: of came out of nowhere and there's not much of

795
00:40:08,000 --> 00:40:09,000
Speaker 1: a precedent for it.

796
00:40:09,239 --> 00:40:12,160
Speaker 2: I can't really think of any present for something like

797
00:40:12,200 --> 00:40:15,600
Speaker 2: this in our country's history. You have basically a faction

798
00:40:16,040 --> 00:40:19,520
Speaker 2: of a faction has captured this branch of government, and

799
00:40:19,600 --> 00:40:22,400
Speaker 2: it's the branch of government with the least accountability because

800
00:40:22,400 --> 00:40:26,240
Speaker 2: they have lifetime terms, they're not elected. There's not necessarily

801
00:40:26,280 --> 00:40:28,000
Speaker 2: all that much you can do about it, although there

802
00:40:28,000 --> 00:40:30,400
Speaker 2: are things you can do about it. The Federalist Society

803
00:40:30,480 --> 00:40:33,759
Speaker 2: started as a student club back in the eighties when

804
00:40:33,800 --> 00:40:36,399
Speaker 2: there were conservative law students who thought that they were

805
00:40:36,480 --> 00:40:39,160
Speaker 2: kind of marooned in the liberal and progressive world of

806
00:40:39,280 --> 00:40:43,520
Speaker 2: law schools. But it's grown to become this very well oiled,

807
00:40:43,680 --> 00:40:49,120
Speaker 2: very effective political machine, grooming judges, pushing them toward the bench,

808
00:40:49,640 --> 00:40:53,080
Speaker 2: urging them to act in a very specific and I

809
00:40:53,080 --> 00:40:55,799
Speaker 2: would argue reactionary way, and you know, I said, it's

810
00:40:55,840 --> 00:40:58,040
Speaker 2: a well oiled machine. And yeah, I always used to

811
00:40:58,080 --> 00:41:00,000
Speaker 2: look at it and say, oh, you know, it's really

812
00:41:00,360 --> 00:41:02,600
Speaker 2: interesting how effective they are. But they don't seem to

813
00:41:02,640 --> 00:41:06,399
Speaker 2: have that much money. Well that was wrong. It turns

814
00:41:06,520 --> 00:41:10,000
Speaker 2: it turns out that a couple of years ago somebody

815
00:41:10,080 --> 00:41:13,320
Speaker 2: gave Leonard Leo, who's the force behind the Federalist Society,

816
00:41:13,560 --> 00:41:18,160
Speaker 2: one point six billion with a B dollars secretly of course,

817
00:41:18,400 --> 00:41:21,520
Speaker 2: to use for this project. And if not only funds

818
00:41:21,560 --> 00:41:24,879
Speaker 2: the Federalist Society, it funds other groups, you know, many

819
00:41:24,880 --> 00:41:28,040
Speaker 2: of which share in office address, running tens of millions

820
00:41:28,120 --> 00:41:31,160
Speaker 2: of dollars of ads to get these justices and judges

821
00:41:31,239 --> 00:41:34,880
Speaker 2: who at the system on the bench, running ads praising

822
00:41:34,960 --> 00:41:38,840
Speaker 2: Congress for refusing to consider the nomination of Merrick Garland,

823
00:41:39,280 --> 00:41:43,000
Speaker 2: creating organizations to file the suits to produce these right

824
00:41:43,040 --> 00:41:43,760
Speaker 2: wing rulings.

825
00:41:44,160 --> 00:41:46,840
Speaker 1: So I just want to stop you for a second,

826
00:41:47,080 --> 00:41:50,160
Speaker 1: file the suits to produce the right wing rulings. Why

827
00:41:50,160 --> 00:41:54,480
Speaker 1: don't you take a case on last year's docket. I'm

828
00:41:54,520 --> 00:41:58,120
Speaker 1: thinking of three zero three creative, because that's a case

829
00:41:58,440 --> 00:42:03,919
Speaker 1: where the plaint if she had never made a wedding website, right,

830
00:42:04,000 --> 00:42:07,799
Speaker 1: that case, three or three Creative, she wanted to discriminate

831
00:42:07,840 --> 00:42:11,040
Speaker 1: against gay people if she ever made a wedding website,

832
00:42:11,120 --> 00:42:14,799
Speaker 1: which she never had. That's a kind of plaintiff, right,

833
00:42:14,840 --> 00:42:16,800
Speaker 1: that's the kind of plaintiff we're talking about here.

834
00:42:17,040 --> 00:42:19,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I don't know about you know, lanlliar Leo's

835
00:42:19,560 --> 00:42:21,080
Speaker 2: involvement in that one in particular.

836
00:42:21,160 --> 00:42:27,520
Speaker 1: Say, right, but these are plaintiffs crafted for a kind

837
00:42:27,560 --> 00:42:28,240
Speaker 1: of outcome.

838
00:42:28,719 --> 00:42:32,520
Speaker 2: You're seeing a bunch of cases where justices are supposed

839
00:42:32,520 --> 00:42:35,120
Speaker 2: to be a court, right, they're supposed to be hearing

840
00:42:35,239 --> 00:42:37,600
Speaker 2: what they call a case in controversy, meaning that like

841
00:42:37,640 --> 00:42:40,720
Speaker 2: it's an actual dispute between people with an actual problem.

842
00:42:40,800 --> 00:42:45,319
Speaker 2: Increasingly and disturbingly, you're seeing these effectively made up institutions,

843
00:42:45,320 --> 00:42:47,960
Speaker 2: are made up back patterns brought before the court. So

844
00:42:48,040 --> 00:42:51,640
Speaker 2: three or three Creative, as he said, they said, Oh, this,

845
00:42:51,920 --> 00:42:55,400
Speaker 2: this person wants to not have to do websites for

846
00:42:55,480 --> 00:42:59,319
Speaker 2: her wedding website business for same sex couples, and this

847
00:42:59,400 --> 00:43:03,520
Speaker 2: is terrible. She's being threatened. Well, she didn't even claim

848
00:43:03,960 --> 00:43:06,600
Speaker 2: that she had ever been prosecuted or stopped from doing it,

849
00:43:06,760 --> 00:43:09,240
Speaker 2: but her papers did say that there was somebody who'd

850
00:43:09,280 --> 00:43:12,480
Speaker 2: asked her to do it after the case was basically

851
00:43:12,520 --> 00:43:14,239
Speaker 2: being heard. I think it was the day before it

852
00:43:14,280 --> 00:43:16,400
Speaker 2: turned out that the person whose name was in the

853
00:43:16,440 --> 00:43:21,239
Speaker 2: papers said what me, I'm married. Actually I'm straight. So

854
00:43:22,000 --> 00:43:24,359
Speaker 2: you know, it seemed like it was kind of made up.

855
00:43:24,880 --> 00:43:27,200
Speaker 2: And this isn't the first time an even cases like

856
00:43:27,239 --> 00:43:30,520
Speaker 2: the affirmative action case where you have one guy named

857
00:43:30,680 --> 00:43:35,120
Speaker 2: Ed Blum who created a group of allegedly representing Asian students,

858
00:43:35,440 --> 00:43:38,600
Speaker 2: having struck out previously in other cases with a woman

859
00:43:38,680 --> 00:43:41,560
Speaker 2: and before that with a white man. Now it's Asian students.

860
00:43:41,600 --> 00:43:45,759
Speaker 2: And it's again this kind of synthetic and manufactured legal crusade,

861
00:43:46,280 --> 00:43:50,239
Speaker 2: very well funded, leading to these abrupt outcomes. And again

862
00:43:50,280 --> 00:43:52,239
Speaker 2: when you kind of look at the first two years

863
00:43:52,280 --> 00:43:55,520
Speaker 2: of this supermajority, look at the big cases they ruled

864
00:43:55,560 --> 00:44:01,000
Speaker 2: out abortion, guns, affirmative action, and in the regulatory cases

865
00:44:01,080 --> 00:44:04,200
Speaker 2: the interests of the fossil fuel industry. That doesn't sound

866
00:44:04,239 --> 00:44:08,960
Speaker 2: like a court, that sounds like an RNC caucus. So

867
00:44:09,200 --> 00:44:11,120
Speaker 2: you know, it's just a very different thing than what

868
00:44:11,160 --> 00:44:12,080
Speaker 2: we've seen before.

869
00:44:12,320 --> 00:44:15,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, no, it's really true. I think that's a really

870
00:44:15,000 --> 00:44:17,399
Speaker 1: good point and I also think one of the things

871
00:44:17,440 --> 00:44:20,799
Speaker 1: we're talking about, one I've talked to before was this

872
00:44:21,280 --> 00:44:24,400
Speaker 1: idea that I mean, if you look at the last

873
00:44:24,440 --> 00:44:27,879
Speaker 1: three cases from the last season, it was Dobbs, it

874
00:44:27,960 --> 00:44:33,279
Speaker 1: was the EPA versus West Virginia, which again is the

875
00:44:33,800 --> 00:44:37,879
Speaker 1: EPA right limiting the scope of the EPA, and then

876
00:44:37,920 --> 00:44:40,879
Speaker 1: the Bruin case, which is states rights when it comes

877
00:44:40,960 --> 00:44:45,520
Speaker 1: to things that Republicans like, like guns. So these are

878
00:44:45,920 --> 00:44:50,040
Speaker 1: really radical remaking of the country.

879
00:44:49,719 --> 00:44:52,880
Speaker 2: Right in three days, in three days in June. Decades

880
00:44:52,920 --> 00:44:57,359
Speaker 2: of conservative social policy enacted by these public officials. That's

881
00:44:57,360 --> 00:45:00,920
Speaker 2: what they are. They're not wizards. They they wear robes.

882
00:45:01,000 --> 00:45:03,359
Speaker 2: They're not clergy, you know, even though they pretend to

883
00:45:03,360 --> 00:45:06,920
Speaker 2: be just reading the ruins of the past. They're public officials.

884
00:45:07,080 --> 00:45:09,680
Speaker 2: And it's hard to find any branch of the federal

885
00:45:09,760 --> 00:45:14,240
Speaker 2: government that has jammed as much ideologically charged policy into

886
00:45:14,320 --> 00:45:17,680
Speaker 2: being in such a short time in memory. And the

887
00:45:17,719 --> 00:45:20,880
Speaker 2: other thing that really bothers me, that concerns me is

888
00:45:20,920 --> 00:45:24,360
Speaker 2: not only the outcomes of these cases, but the way

889
00:45:24,400 --> 00:45:27,080
Speaker 2: they say they're doing it, because that really rings loudly

890
00:45:27,320 --> 00:45:30,600
Speaker 2: in other courts. They say they are following originalism. That's

891
00:45:30,640 --> 00:45:32,000
Speaker 2: this idea. You know that.

892
00:45:32,280 --> 00:45:35,040
Speaker 1: Yes, I was about to ask you about originalism.

893
00:45:35,160 --> 00:45:37,759
Speaker 2: Yeah, no, I mean they say they're following originalism. That's

894
00:45:37,800 --> 00:45:41,160
Speaker 2: this idea that the only legitimate way to read the

895
00:45:41,200 --> 00:45:43,439
Speaker 2: Constitution is to ask what it meant to the people

896
00:45:43,480 --> 00:45:48,120
Speaker 2: who ratified it at the time. And that means, in

897
00:45:48,200 --> 00:45:52,040
Speaker 2: practical terms, people in seventeen eighty seven who are seventeen

898
00:45:52,120 --> 00:45:55,759
Speaker 2: ninety one most of the time. So literally, even if

899
00:45:55,800 --> 00:45:57,120
Speaker 2: you get the history.

900
00:45:57,080 --> 00:46:00,799
Speaker 1: People who own slaves and whose wives were not allowed to.

901
00:46:00,840 --> 00:46:05,160
Speaker 2: Vote, and who used leeches for medical cares, and it

902
00:46:05,280 --> 00:46:08,640
Speaker 2: literally means that the property owning white men of the

903
00:46:08,680 --> 00:46:12,680
Speaker 2: seventeen hundred, their social views, must govern us now. And

904
00:46:12,719 --> 00:46:15,440
Speaker 2: that is a crazy way to run a modern country.

905
00:46:15,480 --> 00:46:17,839
Speaker 2: And by the way, it's not how any Supreme Court

906
00:46:17,920 --> 00:46:20,880
Speaker 2: has ever done this before. It's not how other countries

907
00:46:20,960 --> 00:46:22,960
Speaker 2: do it. I mean, think about it. In Great Britain,

908
00:46:23,040 --> 00:46:26,600
Speaker 2: someone doesn't propose some gun regulations, say or something like that.

909
00:46:26,880 --> 00:46:29,480
Speaker 2: They would say, oh, that's really interesting. This might be

910
00:46:29,520 --> 00:46:32,040
Speaker 2: a good idea, but the big question is what did

911
00:46:32,160 --> 00:46:34,719
Speaker 2: King George the Third think about it? Because that's really

912
00:46:34,800 --> 00:46:37,960
Speaker 2: what matters today. It's nutty and you might say, oh,

913
00:46:38,040 --> 00:46:40,239
Speaker 2: you know, it's kind of isn't this how it's always been?

914
00:46:40,400 --> 00:46:40,480
Speaker 3: No.

915
00:46:40,719 --> 00:46:43,880
Speaker 2: Really, until twenty twenty two, they've only been four really

916
00:46:44,000 --> 00:46:47,640
Speaker 2: major cases in the country's history that just were relying

917
00:46:47,680 --> 00:46:50,600
Speaker 2: on this originalism. The first one was dred Scott. It

918
00:46:50,719 --> 00:46:53,640
Speaker 2: discredited it so much that they didn't really try it

919
00:46:53,680 --> 00:46:56,200
Speaker 2: again for you know, over a century. A case in

920
00:46:56,239 --> 00:46:59,680
Speaker 2: two thousand and eight called Heller, which was the first

921
00:46:59,680 --> 00:47:01,240
Speaker 2: time the Supreme Court ever.

922
00:47:01,120 --> 00:47:03,359
Speaker 1: Said yeah, the gun rights, Yeah, that the.

923
00:47:03,280 --> 00:47:06,200
Speaker 2: Second Amendment reflects an individual right to gun ownership for

924
00:47:06,280 --> 00:47:09,360
Speaker 2: self protection. That was the first time. And Dobbs, and

925
00:47:09,400 --> 00:47:12,000
Speaker 2: then this Brewing case on the Second Amendment, which was

926
00:47:12,080 --> 00:47:15,879
Speaker 2: by far the most extreme such case that we've ever had.

927
00:47:16,000 --> 00:47:19,600
Speaker 2: I wrote a book about the Heller case. Heller said

928
00:47:19,840 --> 00:47:21,640
Speaker 2: there was an individual right. I think they got the

929
00:47:21,719 --> 00:47:25,319
Speaker 2: history wrong, but anyway, Heller said explicitly, look, but you

930
00:47:25,320 --> 00:47:27,880
Speaker 2: can still have strong gun rules, and actually listed a

931
00:47:27,920 --> 00:47:31,440
Speaker 2: bunch of them. Heller was written by Antonin Scalia, and

932
00:47:31,880 --> 00:47:35,280
Speaker 2: Scullia was asked, what's the difference between you and Clarence Thomas,

933
00:47:35,640 --> 00:47:39,600
Speaker 2: and he said, well, I am an originalist, but I

934
00:47:39,680 --> 00:47:44,960
Speaker 2: am not a nut. Thomas wrote the Bruined Decision. It

935
00:47:45,080 --> 00:47:48,719
Speaker 2: says that you, in effect that you cannot take into

936
00:47:48,760 --> 00:47:53,560
Speaker 2: consideration current public safety concerns when looking at whether a

937
00:47:54,200 --> 00:47:59,440
Speaker 2: gun law is constitutional, only quote history and tradition literally, Like,

938
00:47:59,520 --> 00:48:02,600
Speaker 2: did they have a rule like this in the seventeen hundreds,

939
00:48:02,920 --> 00:48:05,720
Speaker 2: which is causing dozens of gun laws to be challenged

940
00:48:05,760 --> 00:48:07,840
Speaker 2: or knocked down all over the country. And the Supreme

941
00:48:07,840 --> 00:48:09,960
Speaker 2: Court actually took a case that they're going to hear

942
00:48:10,000 --> 00:48:12,600
Speaker 2: in November. Well, they might try to pull back on

943
00:48:12,640 --> 00:48:15,800
Speaker 2: this just because the implications are so extreme.

944
00:48:15,920 --> 00:48:18,439
Speaker 1: Right, Oh, interesting, why do you think that?

945
00:48:18,920 --> 00:48:21,720
Speaker 2: Well, so, the way this has played out, Supreme Court

946
00:48:21,760 --> 00:48:24,120
Speaker 2: is one court, but there's dozens and dozens of other

947
00:48:24,360 --> 00:48:26,560
Speaker 2: federal courts and they listened to what the Supreme Court says,

948
00:48:26,560 --> 00:48:29,720
Speaker 2: and they most cases don't get up to the top court.

949
00:48:29,920 --> 00:48:33,600
Speaker 2: And the way judges have been interpreting how to look

950
00:48:33,640 --> 00:48:37,279
Speaker 2: at gun laws after this really extreme decision. Give you

951
00:48:37,480 --> 00:48:40,320
Speaker 2: an example in New York State when New York, which

952
00:48:40,480 --> 00:48:43,400
Speaker 2: had its gun laws struck down, had to pass a

953
00:48:43,440 --> 00:48:46,600
Speaker 2: new law, and a federal judge in Upstate New York said, well,

954
00:48:47,080 --> 00:48:49,880
Speaker 2: history and tradition for it to be history and tradition.

955
00:48:50,200 --> 00:48:54,000
Speaker 2: Two examples from the colonial era that's a mere trend.

956
00:48:55,080 --> 00:48:57,600
Speaker 2: For it to be a traditional, you need three and

957
00:48:57,680 --> 00:49:00,880
Speaker 2: I can find I can find no tradition of laws

958
00:49:00,960 --> 00:49:05,399
Speaker 2: banning guns at sleep away summer camps. So therefore that's unconstitutional.

959
00:49:05,520 --> 00:49:08,319
Speaker 2: Let alone, you know, subways, because they hadn't invented that

960
00:49:08,360 --> 00:49:10,360
Speaker 2: for one hundred years. It sounds like a parody, but

961
00:49:10,400 --> 00:49:11,440
Speaker 2: that's literally.

962
00:49:11,320 --> 00:49:14,040
Speaker 1: We've opened the door to peak crazy here.

963
00:49:14,200 --> 00:49:16,640
Speaker 2: Peak crazy. And then the one that really bothered people

964
00:49:16,640 --> 00:49:20,040
Speaker 2: the most, I think was in Texas, no surprise maybe,

965
00:49:20,400 --> 00:49:24,040
Speaker 2: where the Court of Appeals said, the very conservative Fifth

966
00:49:24,040 --> 00:49:27,840
Speaker 2: Circuit Court of Appeals said, well, the law saying that

967
00:49:27,920 --> 00:49:30,719
Speaker 2: you can take a gun away from somebody who has

968
00:49:31,000 --> 00:49:35,880
Speaker 2: an adjudicated record of domestic violence, that's unconstitutional, right.

969
00:49:35,800 --> 00:49:39,800
Speaker 1: Because you didn't have domestic violence in the seventeen hundreds,

970
00:49:39,840 --> 00:49:40,560
Speaker 1: so it was just.

971
00:49:40,920 --> 00:49:44,360
Speaker 2: Marriage or was a good thing. You didn't haverhibitions on

972
00:49:44,440 --> 00:49:47,839
Speaker 2: domestic violence, and therefore there's no history in tradition. And

973
00:49:47,840 --> 00:49:51,480
Speaker 2: people are you know, understandably horrified by that. And the

974
00:49:51,520 --> 00:49:54,600
Speaker 2: Supreme Court took that case. It's called RAHEMI who knows,

975
00:49:54,680 --> 00:49:57,279
Speaker 2: but they could have just let it stand. I have

976
00:49:57,320 --> 00:49:59,560
Speaker 2: a feeling that took the case to kind of say

977
00:50:00,000 --> 00:50:02,440
Speaker 2: this is too far, it's still gonna be pretty extreme

978
00:50:02,520 --> 00:50:03,720
Speaker 2: the overall outcome.

979
00:50:04,280 --> 00:50:08,160
Speaker 1: So my man, and he's actually not my man, Sam Alito,

980
00:50:08,719 --> 00:50:09,399
Speaker 1: you know him.

981
00:50:09,640 --> 00:50:11,600
Speaker 2: He's a big listener to the podcast. I'm sure.

982
00:50:11,640 --> 00:50:15,279
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, he's a big fan. Unless it's a clip

983
00:50:15,480 --> 00:50:18,080
Speaker 1: on Fox News. I don't think Justice Alito is going

984
00:50:18,160 --> 00:50:21,520
Speaker 1: to see it. But just as Alito in the news

985
00:50:21,640 --> 00:50:24,400
Speaker 1: because he says Congress has no authority to regulate the

986
00:50:24,400 --> 00:50:29,040
Speaker 1: Supreme Court, Congers actually really could theoretically if they wanted

987
00:50:29,080 --> 00:50:30,800
Speaker 1: to regulate the Supreme Court.

988
00:50:31,000 --> 00:50:34,279
Speaker 2: Oh, unambiguously. I mean for someone who claims to be

989
00:50:34,320 --> 00:50:37,440
Speaker 2: a textualist, he needs, you know, better reading texts. I

990
00:50:37,480 --> 00:50:42,040
Speaker 2: mean yeah. And Elena Kagan and part of this highly

991
00:50:42,080 --> 00:50:45,080
Speaker 2: controversial moment is they're now all going out and giving

992
00:50:45,160 --> 00:50:48,560
Speaker 2: speeches criticizing each other. She went out and said that's absurd.

993
00:50:49,280 --> 00:50:51,879
Speaker 2: Of course, Congress has the ability to regulate. Congress has

994
00:50:51,920 --> 00:50:54,759
Speaker 2: regulated the Court, as it has the right to do

995
00:50:54,880 --> 00:50:57,719
Speaker 2: on many different things, whether ethics rules, the size of

996
00:50:57,760 --> 00:51:01,520
Speaker 2: the court, it's jurisdiction. All this is given that power

997
00:51:01,560 --> 00:51:04,919
Speaker 2: to the Congress by the Constitution, and more broadly, those

998
00:51:04,960 --> 00:51:07,920
Speaker 2: of us who care about the Court and the country

999
00:51:08,080 --> 00:51:11,160
Speaker 2: and the Constitution. We should be urging Congress to act.

1000
00:51:11,200 --> 00:51:14,160
Speaker 2: I mean, the easiest, the lowest hanging fruit, is kind

1001
00:51:14,160 --> 00:51:17,239
Speaker 2: of what Alito was responding to. The Supreme Court, as

1002
00:51:17,280 --> 00:51:19,280
Speaker 2: you know, is the only court in the country without

1003
00:51:19,280 --> 00:51:22,960
Speaker 2: it binding ethics code, the only one. And nobody is

1004
00:51:23,040 --> 00:51:25,200
Speaker 2: so wise that they should be the judge in their

1005
00:51:25,200 --> 00:51:27,400
Speaker 2: own case. It's kind of a very basic principle. But

1006
00:51:27,480 --> 00:51:30,759
Speaker 2: that's the situation here, and we keep seeing these scandals

1007
00:51:30,800 --> 00:51:34,240
Speaker 2: over and over again, with the billionaires whisking these justices

1008
00:51:34,239 --> 00:51:38,520
Speaker 2: off to their luxury layers and then them not revealing

1009
00:51:38,560 --> 00:51:41,960
Speaker 2: it or not recusing from the cases. Congress emphatically can

1010
00:51:42,000 --> 00:51:44,400
Speaker 2: pass an ethics code for these judges, as they have

1011
00:51:44,520 --> 00:51:48,400
Speaker 2: for other judges, and there's bipart in the legislation to

1012
00:51:48,440 --> 00:51:51,239
Speaker 2: do it, and you know, I have a feeling that

1013
00:51:51,280 --> 00:51:54,400
Speaker 2: there's division within the Supreme Court on this. Kavanaugh recently said, oh,

1014
00:51:54,400 --> 00:51:56,680
Speaker 2: we're going to do something, but we'll see. I also

1015
00:51:56,719 --> 00:51:59,640
Speaker 2: think there's even more basic structural changes that can be made.

1016
00:52:00,080 --> 00:52:02,799
Speaker 2: I'm strongly in the group I lead, the Brendan Center

1017
00:52:02,840 --> 00:52:05,600
Speaker 2: for Justice. We're strongly for an eighteen year term limit

1018
00:52:05,840 --> 00:52:09,640
Speaker 2: for justices. Nobody should have too much public power for

1019
00:52:09,680 --> 00:52:12,080
Speaker 2: too long. George Washington, you know, when he limited his

1020
00:52:12,120 --> 00:52:15,960
Speaker 2: own term to two terms, he kind of reflected that insight.

1021
00:52:16,320 --> 00:52:18,719
Speaker 2: And the thing about term limits. It's interesting is I

1022
00:52:18,719 --> 00:52:21,560
Speaker 2: think a lot of people don't realize this. It's really popular.

1023
00:52:21,800 --> 00:52:26,719
Speaker 2: It's really popular among conservatives and liberals and Democrats and Republicans.

1024
00:52:26,920 --> 00:52:29,640
Speaker 2: I was a member of the Commission on the Supreme

1025
00:52:29,680 --> 00:52:33,560
Speaker 2: Court that Present Biden appointed in twenty twenty one. And

1026
00:52:33,800 --> 00:52:36,280
Speaker 2: you know, these commissions, they don't do that much often,

1027
00:52:36,320 --> 00:52:39,680
Speaker 2: and we were actually instructed at the beginning not to

1028
00:52:39,719 --> 00:52:43,600
Speaker 2: reach conclusions, and we didn't. You know, we've a garment

1029
00:52:43,640 --> 00:52:47,040
Speaker 2: agency that works as intended. But it was really pretty interesting.

1030
00:52:47,440 --> 00:52:50,880
Speaker 2: We heard from dozens of public witnesses from left and right,

1031
00:52:50,960 --> 00:52:53,280
Speaker 2: and they had all different views on all different stuff.

1032
00:52:53,600 --> 00:52:56,359
Speaker 2: Some were for court expansion, others were against it. Some

1033
00:52:56,400 --> 00:52:59,160
Speaker 2: were foreign Ethics code, others were against it. Over and

1034
00:52:59,200 --> 00:53:02,360
Speaker 2: over they said, oh, but I'm for term limits. Of course.

1035
00:53:02,640 --> 00:53:04,880
Speaker 2: I think there's a national consensus on this that we

1036
00:53:04,880 --> 00:53:07,680
Speaker 2: don't even realize is there. Now. That doesn't mean it

1037
00:53:07,680 --> 00:53:11,560
Speaker 2: happens without controversy. People will get polarized. It certainly could

1038
00:53:11,560 --> 00:53:13,879
Speaker 2: be done by a constitutional amendment. I think it could

1039
00:53:13,920 --> 00:53:16,400
Speaker 2: be done by a statute as well, So you know,

1040
00:53:16,480 --> 00:53:18,319
Speaker 2: I think it's an idea whose time has come, and

1041
00:53:18,360 --> 00:53:19,960
Speaker 2: that's the kind of thing that can help brank some

1042
00:53:20,040 --> 00:53:21,880
Speaker 2: accountability structurally to the court.

1043
00:53:22,280 --> 00:53:25,839
Speaker 1: Yeah. Absolutely, thank you so much for joining us. We've

1044
00:53:25,840 --> 00:53:28,120
Speaker 1: gone over because it was so fascinating.

1045
00:53:28,239 --> 00:53:35,719
Speaker 2: But thank you, my pleasure, no moment.

1046
00:53:34,920 --> 00:53:39,880
Speaker 5: Jessie Cannon, Molly jung Fast. Let me tell you, Republicans

1047
00:53:39,920 --> 00:53:43,440
Speaker 5: are in disarray. Things are just going so good for

1048
00:53:43,719 --> 00:53:45,480
Speaker 5: Speaker of the House, Kevin McCarthy.

1049
00:53:45,800 --> 00:53:50,800
Speaker 1: Kevin McCarthy has a Donald Trump problem. Unfortunately, he only

1050
00:53:50,840 --> 00:53:54,040
Speaker 1: has one solution, which is a Donald Trump solution. He

1051
00:53:54,239 --> 00:53:59,160
Speaker 1: has a situation where Donald Trump really wants him to

1052
00:53:59,200 --> 00:54:02,880
Speaker 1: impeach Joe despite the fact that there's nothing really to

1053
00:54:02,880 --> 00:54:07,760
Speaker 1: impeach Joe Biden on, and despite the fact that impeaching

1054
00:54:07,840 --> 00:54:12,440
Speaker 1: Joe Biden will fundamentally hurt moderates in the party and

1055
00:54:12,560 --> 00:54:14,640
Speaker 1: perhaps lose Republicans of the House.

1056
00:54:14,960 --> 00:54:16,920
Speaker 5: And he had all this time to write a statement

1057
00:54:17,080 --> 00:54:19,640
Speaker 5: and still like everything that came out when he made

1058
00:54:19,680 --> 00:54:22,360
Speaker 5: it was like total bullshit, Like they can't even be

1059
00:54:22,440 --> 00:54:24,200
Speaker 5: bothered to put the effort in here.

1060
00:54:24,400 --> 00:54:27,719
Speaker 1: Kevin McCarthy made six claims in support of his call

1061
00:54:27,800 --> 00:54:31,640
Speaker 1: for an impeachment inquiry, most pre date twenty twenty one.

1062
00:54:31,680 --> 00:54:35,600
Speaker 1: Several don't involve Joe Biden at all, and one was

1063
00:54:36,000 --> 00:54:42,280
Speaker 1: flatly untrue for being a complete sociopath and sycophant. Kevin

1064
00:54:42,400 --> 00:54:48,359
Speaker 1: McCarthy's quest to impeach hist in quest to impeach one

1065
00:54:48,480 --> 00:54:52,200
Speaker 1: Joe Biden is our moment of fuck array. That's it

1066
00:54:52,320 --> 00:54:55,880
Speaker 1: for this episode of Fast Politics. Tune in every Monday,

1067
00:54:55,920 --> 00:54:58,960
Speaker 1: Wednesday and Friday to hear the best minds in politics

1068
00:54:59,040 --> 00:55:02,000
Speaker 1: make sense of all all this chaos. If you enjoyed

1069
00:55:02,000 --> 00:55:04,480
Speaker 1: what you've heard, please send it to a friend and

1070
00:55:04,600 --> 00:55:07,960
Speaker 1: keep the conversation going. And again, thanks for listening.