1 00:00:01,280 --> 00:00:04,279 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff You Missed in History Class, a production 2 00:00:04,360 --> 00:00:13,640 Speaker 1: of I Heart Radio. Hello and welcome to the podcast. 3 00:00:13,720 --> 00:00:16,959 Speaker 1: I'm Tray, cy Vie Wilson and I'm Holly Fry. We 4 00:00:17,040 --> 00:00:20,079 Speaker 1: have an interview to share with you today. Long time 5 00:00:20,120 --> 00:00:23,560 Speaker 1: listeners of the show may remember Dr Catherine sharp Landeck 6 00:00:23,600 --> 00:00:26,600 Speaker 1: who sat down with me in teen to talk about 7 00:00:26,600 --> 00:00:29,600 Speaker 1: the Women Air Force Service pilots of World War Two, 8 00:00:29,960 --> 00:00:32,480 Speaker 1: and this time Kate and Tracy talk a little about 9 00:00:32,560 --> 00:00:35,800 Speaker 1: Kate's new book, but mostly about Jacqueline Cochrane, who was 10 00:00:35,920 --> 00:00:39,239 Speaker 1: known by Jackie, who was an incredible pilot, one of 11 00:00:39,240 --> 00:00:42,199 Speaker 1: the driving forces behind the Women Air Force Service pilots, 12 00:00:42,240 --> 00:00:49,879 Speaker 1: and a lot more so here's the interview. We have 13 00:00:50,000 --> 00:00:54,040 Speaker 1: mentioned Jacqueline Cochrane, often known as Jackie, on the show 14 00:00:54,080 --> 00:00:58,040 Speaker 1: a few times before. Among other things, she was an aviator, 15 00:00:58,240 --> 00:01:01,360 Speaker 1: and previous hosts talked about some of her record breaking 16 00:01:01,520 --> 00:01:06,959 Speaker 1: flights in episode called four Flights of Female Aviators. She 17 00:01:07,040 --> 00:01:10,640 Speaker 1: made really so many historic flights just as examples. She 18 00:01:10,760 --> 00:01:13,360 Speaker 1: was the first woman to break the sound barrier, and 19 00:01:13,400 --> 00:01:17,680 Speaker 1: she sat so many records in distance and speed and altitude. 20 00:01:17,840 --> 00:01:20,880 Speaker 1: For a while she held more of those types of 21 00:01:20,920 --> 00:01:24,800 Speaker 1: records than any other pilot of any gender. She was 22 00:01:24,880 --> 00:01:27,440 Speaker 1: also a big part of the Women Air Force Service Pilots, 23 00:01:27,440 --> 00:01:30,399 Speaker 1: which we talked about previously in a two part episode 24 00:01:30,480 --> 00:01:33,360 Speaker 1: of the show. That two part episode was an interview 25 00:01:33,800 --> 00:01:36,200 Speaker 1: with Dr Catherine sharp Landeck, who at the time was 26 00:01:36,280 --> 00:01:38,759 Speaker 1: working on a book on the WASP. And that book 27 00:01:38,800 --> 00:01:43,040 Speaker 1: is finally here. It's called The Women with Silver Wings, 28 00:01:43,120 --> 00:01:45,679 Speaker 1: The Inspiring True Story of the Women Air Force Service 29 00:01:45,760 --> 00:01:48,880 Speaker 1: Pilots of World War Two. And as I was reading 30 00:01:48,880 --> 00:01:52,520 Speaker 1: this book, I got really captivated by some details about 31 00:01:52,560 --> 00:01:55,120 Speaker 1: Jackie Cochrane that we had not gotten into before on 32 00:01:55,160 --> 00:01:57,800 Speaker 1: the show. Really, so I asked Kate she would be 33 00:01:57,840 --> 00:02:00,200 Speaker 1: willing to come onto the show again to talk about 34 00:02:00,280 --> 00:02:02,560 Speaker 1: Jackie Cochrane, And here she is today. Hi, Kate, I'm 35 00:02:02,600 --> 00:02:05,360 Speaker 1: so glad you're here. Hi. Tracy is so glad to 36 00:02:05,440 --> 00:02:07,200 Speaker 1: have a chance to talk about Jackie and talk with 37 00:02:07,240 --> 00:02:10,520 Speaker 1: you again. Yeah. So before we get onto Jackie, your 38 00:02:10,560 --> 00:02:15,720 Speaker 1: book is finally here. Who. I'm so excited because the 39 00:02:15,760 --> 00:02:17,680 Speaker 1: last time that we had talked about it was four 40 00:02:17,760 --> 00:02:19,560 Speaker 1: years ago, so I know this has been a many, 41 00:02:19,600 --> 00:02:22,040 Speaker 1: many years labor for you. Can you can you tell 42 00:02:22,080 --> 00:02:23,640 Speaker 1: us a little bit about your book before we talk 43 00:02:23,680 --> 00:02:26,680 Speaker 1: about Jackie. Sure, yeah, the thanks for asking. So the 44 00:02:26,720 --> 00:02:30,080 Speaker 1: book is the story of the women of the WASP. 45 00:02:30,160 --> 00:02:32,320 Speaker 1: The women are for Service pilots, but it really does 46 00:02:32,600 --> 00:02:36,240 Speaker 1: go through from the nineteen thirties, that golden age of 47 00:02:36,280 --> 00:02:40,320 Speaker 1: aviation and those early women in aviation, then through the 48 00:02:40,360 --> 00:02:42,840 Speaker 1: war years and all the different types of jobs that 49 00:02:42,880 --> 00:02:46,960 Speaker 1: they did, whether it's faring aircraft or towing targets behind 50 00:02:47,000 --> 00:02:49,200 Speaker 1: planes and that sort of thing. And one of the 51 00:02:49,240 --> 00:02:51,320 Speaker 1: reasons that took so long to write this book really 52 00:02:51,639 --> 00:02:53,560 Speaker 1: is because I go into those post war years, what 53 00:02:53,680 --> 00:02:57,560 Speaker 1: happens to them after the war and that nineteen fifties 54 00:02:57,560 --> 00:03:00,760 Speaker 1: and sixties, and then through their fight in the nineteen 55 00:03:00,840 --> 00:03:04,800 Speaker 1: seventies to be recognized as veterans of World War Two, 56 00:03:05,240 --> 00:03:08,639 Speaker 1: all the way through to the fight to get them 57 00:03:08,639 --> 00:03:11,160 Speaker 1: back into Arlington National Cemetery. So it really is a 58 00:03:11,840 --> 00:03:15,080 Speaker 1: kind of a lifetime story of this whole group of women, 59 00:03:15,120 --> 00:03:17,280 Speaker 1: and really I think helps tell the story of women 60 00:03:17,280 --> 00:03:20,960 Speaker 1: in twenty century America. That's awesome. Um, I've read this book. 61 00:03:21,120 --> 00:03:25,080 Speaker 1: It's it's great. Thank you. I'm so glad you liked it. 62 00:03:25,600 --> 00:03:28,160 Speaker 1: I really did. And and Jackie Cochrane is a big 63 00:03:28,160 --> 00:03:31,080 Speaker 1: part of that whole story. Absolutely. So. She was born 64 00:03:31,440 --> 00:03:34,600 Speaker 1: May eleven, nineteen or six, and when she was born, 65 00:03:34,600 --> 00:03:37,400 Speaker 1: her name was Bessie Lee Pittman. Can you tell me 66 00:03:37,480 --> 00:03:40,120 Speaker 1: a little bit about what her childhood and her upbringing 67 00:03:40,120 --> 00:03:44,360 Speaker 1: were like? Yeah, absolutely, So. Jackie was born in the 68 00:03:44,400 --> 00:03:49,080 Speaker 1: Panhandle of Florida. She was the fifth child of Mill 69 00:03:49,200 --> 00:03:53,920 Speaker 1: right right. He worked in the logging of the Panhandle 70 00:03:53,960 --> 00:03:56,920 Speaker 1: of Florida. And you know, she grew up in saw 71 00:03:57,000 --> 00:04:00,560 Speaker 1: mill towns. They moved from town to town, following the 72 00:04:00,640 --> 00:04:04,160 Speaker 1: trees and following the jobs that they that they had, 73 00:04:04,760 --> 00:04:10,680 Speaker 1: very poor, really really poor dirt floor, no toilets, all 74 00:04:10,720 --> 00:04:14,360 Speaker 1: of that that you imagine for real poverty, working class 75 00:04:14,360 --> 00:04:17,400 Speaker 1: poverty of this era. So she got married at a 76 00:04:17,520 --> 00:04:19,320 Speaker 1: at a pretty young age. She married a man named 77 00:04:19,400 --> 00:04:22,080 Speaker 1: Robert Cochrane. When she was fourteen, she had discovered that 78 00:04:22,120 --> 00:04:25,000 Speaker 1: she was pregnant. And this part of the story, it's 79 00:04:25,000 --> 00:04:29,040 Speaker 1: really tragic. Her son, Robert Jr. Died in an accidental 80 00:04:29,080 --> 00:04:31,479 Speaker 1: fire when he was still a child. She and her 81 00:04:31,560 --> 00:04:35,240 Speaker 1: husband later divorced, and it seems like not long after 82 00:04:35,279 --> 00:04:40,920 Speaker 1: that divorce, she just sort of reinvented herself as Jacqueline Cochrane. 83 00:04:41,800 --> 00:04:45,880 Speaker 1: Can you tell me about how that happened? Yeah, exactly. 84 00:04:45,920 --> 00:04:49,920 Speaker 1: So Jackie was, as she had gone through her late teens, 85 00:04:49,960 --> 00:04:53,400 Speaker 1: became a good hairdresser, very good hairdressers, one of the best, 86 00:04:53,680 --> 00:04:56,279 Speaker 1: with the new permanent wave machine and things like that. 87 00:04:56,880 --> 00:04:59,920 Speaker 1: And after her son died and she divorced her has 88 00:05:00,040 --> 00:05:02,880 Speaker 1: friend who you know, they hadn't been living with one 89 00:05:02,880 --> 00:05:05,120 Speaker 1: another for a while. There's all sorts of turmoil. Did 90 00:05:05,160 --> 00:05:07,600 Speaker 1: he asked for the divorce for her adultery? Did she 91 00:05:07,680 --> 00:05:10,400 Speaker 1: ask for the divorce for his? But she goes on 92 00:05:10,600 --> 00:05:13,520 Speaker 1: and they get divorced, and she gets on a train 93 00:05:13,640 --> 00:05:15,400 Speaker 1: for New York City and she is just going to 94 00:05:15,600 --> 00:05:21,240 Speaker 1: start over, completely new life, completely new world. And she does. 95 00:05:21,360 --> 00:05:24,839 Speaker 1: She completely reinvents herself. She tells people she's an orphan. 96 00:05:25,760 --> 00:05:29,280 Speaker 1: She drops the name Bessie, claims she got Jacqueline out 97 00:05:29,320 --> 00:05:32,200 Speaker 1: of a phone book. I don't know why she kept 98 00:05:32,240 --> 00:05:35,400 Speaker 1: her ex husband's last name of Cochrane, other than the 99 00:05:35,440 --> 00:05:39,160 Speaker 1: fact that perhaps she wanted to separate herself from the Pittman's, 100 00:05:39,200 --> 00:05:42,640 Speaker 1: which was her family, as much as possible. And she, 101 00:05:42,880 --> 00:05:45,400 Speaker 1: you know, yeah, she claims she was an orphan and 102 00:05:45,760 --> 00:05:48,440 Speaker 1: all alone and had been abused and and all sorts 103 00:05:48,440 --> 00:05:52,480 Speaker 1: of things. Uh, And it tells this story and just 104 00:05:52,640 --> 00:05:55,840 Speaker 1: makes a lot of stuff up. But she wants to 105 00:05:56,240 --> 00:05:59,719 Speaker 1: create an entirely new image. She takes on a new 106 00:05:59,800 --> 00:06:03,760 Speaker 1: way of speaking and you know it, puts on a 107 00:06:03,760 --> 00:06:06,599 Speaker 1: fake accent, tries to get rid of that southern twang 108 00:06:06,680 --> 00:06:09,840 Speaker 1: from from the Florida and Alabama, and just is an 109 00:06:10,000 --> 00:06:14,080 Speaker 1: entirely different woman. And she had been before. This is 110 00:06:14,120 --> 00:06:17,000 Speaker 1: so amazing to me. And it skips ahead a little bit. 111 00:06:17,080 --> 00:06:21,240 Speaker 1: She also she wound up starting her own cosmetics company 112 00:06:21,440 --> 00:06:26,840 Speaker 1: and ran it really successfully. Yeah, so Jackie was an 113 00:06:26,960 --> 00:06:29,960 Speaker 1: entrepreneur right even before she goes to New York. She 114 00:06:30,600 --> 00:06:35,160 Speaker 1: you know, he talks her way into getting to run 115 00:06:35,400 --> 00:06:40,599 Speaker 1: the permanent wave machine in a particular hairdresser salon, and 116 00:06:40,839 --> 00:06:43,440 Speaker 1: you know, by blackmailing the woman who ran it, because 117 00:06:43,480 --> 00:06:47,040 Speaker 1: the inspectors came and Jackie was only fifteen and nobody 118 00:06:47,120 --> 00:06:49,400 Speaker 1: under sixteen was supposed to work. And she said, I'm 119 00:06:49,400 --> 00:06:51,479 Speaker 1: going to tell him how young I am if you 120 00:06:51,480 --> 00:06:55,559 Speaker 1: don't let me learn you know, these new equipment. And yeah, 121 00:06:55,600 --> 00:06:59,760 Speaker 1: I mean she was really very determined to take her place. 122 00:07:00,080 --> 00:07:04,400 Speaker 1: She ends up buying pieces of different salons and hiring 123 00:07:04,520 --> 00:07:08,320 Speaker 1: and training hairdressers to work in them so she could 124 00:07:08,320 --> 00:07:11,560 Speaker 1: get a piece of their work. You know. She was 125 00:07:11,880 --> 00:07:17,000 Speaker 1: very entrepreneurial, very smart, uh and very almost vicious in 126 00:07:17,080 --> 00:07:21,080 Speaker 1: her determination to to move forward. So yeah, in the 127 00:07:21,160 --> 00:07:24,400 Speaker 1: nineteen thirties, in the middle of the depression, she opens 128 00:07:24,440 --> 00:07:29,200 Speaker 1: a major cosmetics company, Jacqueline Cochrane Cosmetics, and is a 129 00:07:29,280 --> 00:07:33,800 Speaker 1: huge success. You can still find advertisements for her products anywhere. 130 00:07:34,200 --> 00:07:35,720 Speaker 1: And in the midst of all that, she was also 131 00:07:35,800 --> 00:07:39,160 Speaker 1: learning to fly airplanes. I think she took flying lessons 132 00:07:39,160 --> 00:07:42,400 Speaker 1: in two and then it was just astoundingly fast that 133 00:07:42,480 --> 00:07:46,840 Speaker 1: she mastered the ability to fly and became amazing at it. Yeah. 134 00:07:46,960 --> 00:07:49,800 Speaker 1: So one of the things that Jackie did, she was 135 00:07:50,000 --> 00:07:53,280 Speaker 1: definitely a businesswoman and had all these ideas. And before 136 00:07:53,320 --> 00:07:56,200 Speaker 1: she was able to open her cosmetics company, she had 137 00:07:56,240 --> 00:08:00,480 Speaker 1: been at a party. She'd been invited either as a 138 00:08:00,520 --> 00:08:04,840 Speaker 1: single woman or or whatever, and she had met Floyd Odlam, 139 00:08:04,840 --> 00:08:07,080 Speaker 1: who was the richest man in America at the time, 140 00:08:07,880 --> 00:08:11,080 Speaker 1: and had a conversation with him. He was an incredible businessman, 141 00:08:11,600 --> 00:08:14,360 Speaker 1: and had a conversation with him about how she'd like 142 00:08:14,480 --> 00:08:19,840 Speaker 1: to maybe open cosmetics company or work for a cosmetics company, 143 00:08:19,920 --> 00:08:23,040 Speaker 1: and he said, well, why don't you beat your competition 144 00:08:23,280 --> 00:08:28,480 Speaker 1: and fly to these different places. And she'd always loved aviation, 145 00:08:28,560 --> 00:08:31,360 Speaker 1: she'd been caught up in the same aviation fever that 146 00:08:31,440 --> 00:08:34,559 Speaker 1: everyone else had in the twenties and thirties, and saw 147 00:08:34,640 --> 00:08:38,199 Speaker 1: this opportunity and they made a bet, Floyd and Jackie 148 00:08:38,240 --> 00:08:41,920 Speaker 1: did that she couldn't get it uh in in you know, 149 00:08:42,080 --> 00:08:45,360 Speaker 1: record time. She went to Roosevelt Field in New York 150 00:08:46,440 --> 00:08:50,320 Speaker 1: and did it. She got her license in under three weeks, 151 00:08:50,720 --> 00:08:54,600 Speaker 1: despite weather and all of those things, and then went 152 00:08:54,640 --> 00:08:58,079 Speaker 1: on to do amazing things. And Floyd paid for her 153 00:08:58,120 --> 00:09:04,079 Speaker 1: license because she beat that deadline. That and I think 154 00:09:04,240 --> 00:09:07,560 Speaker 1: one of the really important things about that moment in 155 00:09:07,640 --> 00:09:11,640 Speaker 1: time when Jackie gets her license in two is she 156 00:09:11,720 --> 00:09:15,439 Speaker 1: also gets publicity. Remember the newspapers in the nineteen thirties 157 00:09:15,440 --> 00:09:19,720 Speaker 1: were very much about aviation. They had aviation writers. Even 158 00:09:19,800 --> 00:09:22,120 Speaker 1: Ernie Pyle, the great World War Two writer, was an 159 00:09:22,120 --> 00:09:26,719 Speaker 1: aviation writer on the aviation beat on various newspapers and magazines. 160 00:09:27,280 --> 00:09:32,319 Speaker 1: And Jackie got publicity. You know this this girl who 161 00:09:32,559 --> 00:09:36,280 Speaker 1: took her vacation to learn to fly, and you know, 162 00:09:36,920 --> 00:09:40,360 Speaker 1: her picture in the paper and for this poor girl 163 00:09:40,559 --> 00:09:45,000 Speaker 1: from Florida who you know, worked in textile factories when 164 00:09:45,080 --> 00:09:48,600 Speaker 1: she was eight and nine years old, for her to 165 00:09:48,640 --> 00:09:54,079 Speaker 1: be in the New York papers as something special. She 166 00:09:54,160 --> 00:09:58,760 Speaker 1: saw aviation as her opportunity to finally achieve her goals 167 00:09:58,920 --> 00:10:03,440 Speaker 1: and to get at it for being something special, which 168 00:10:03,480 --> 00:10:06,280 Speaker 1: is what she really wanted more than anything else. It's 169 00:10:06,320 --> 00:10:09,480 Speaker 1: such an incredible story to me. Um. She and Floyd 170 00:10:09,559 --> 00:10:12,360 Speaker 1: later got married. They did, They were together for a 171 00:10:12,400 --> 00:10:15,200 Speaker 1: really long time. But like this, he's an interesting person, 172 00:10:15,240 --> 00:10:17,640 Speaker 1: but like this episode is not not really about him 173 00:10:17,640 --> 00:10:22,199 Speaker 1: so much. It's really about Jackie's story. Um. Her love 174 00:10:22,320 --> 00:10:26,160 Speaker 1: for flight and her ability to fly, and her ability 175 00:10:26,200 --> 00:10:29,840 Speaker 1: to make all these connections and convince people to do 176 00:10:30,120 --> 00:10:34,559 Speaker 1: things really were that was all a big part of 177 00:10:34,600 --> 00:10:37,640 Speaker 1: the formation of the Women Air Force Service pilots. And 178 00:10:37,960 --> 00:10:40,320 Speaker 1: we've already we did a two part episode previously. We 179 00:10:40,400 --> 00:10:43,360 Speaker 1: talked so much about that, Um, we did not talk 180 00:10:43,400 --> 00:10:47,600 Speaker 1: as much about how another woman, Nancy Love, was also 181 00:10:47,960 --> 00:10:52,080 Speaker 1: part of all that, And they were just very different 182 00:10:52,200 --> 00:10:55,679 Speaker 1: women with very different approaches. And I don't really want 183 00:10:55,720 --> 00:10:59,520 Speaker 1: to characterize it as a rivalry, but it wasn't necessarily 184 00:11:00,080 --> 00:11:03,679 Speaker 1: up an affirming relationship. All the time. Can you talk 185 00:11:03,720 --> 00:11:06,600 Speaker 1: about that a little bit. Yeah. The sad thing about 186 00:11:06,640 --> 00:11:09,680 Speaker 1: this is I think Nancy and Jackie should have been friends. 187 00:11:10,200 --> 00:11:14,320 Speaker 1: They both had similar goals during World War Two, they 188 00:11:14,320 --> 00:11:19,960 Speaker 1: had similar ambitions, but but they just they were not friends. Uh. 189 00:11:20,160 --> 00:11:25,080 Speaker 1: Nancy Love was very ambitious herself and very smart and 190 00:11:25,200 --> 00:11:28,160 Speaker 1: very competitive, just as Jackie was. But she'd had a 191 00:11:28,160 --> 00:11:32,320 Speaker 1: different upbringing. She came from a prominent Boston family. She'd 192 00:11:32,320 --> 00:11:34,719 Speaker 1: grown up in Michigan. But she had all the right 193 00:11:34,720 --> 00:11:39,040 Speaker 1: connections and she had all the right refinements. She her 194 00:11:39,160 --> 00:11:41,480 Speaker 1: father had lost all her money, so she didn't all 195 00:11:41,600 --> 00:11:43,360 Speaker 1: his money during the depression, so she didn't have a 196 00:11:43,400 --> 00:11:45,640 Speaker 1: lot of money, but she had those connections and that 197 00:11:45,720 --> 00:11:49,840 Speaker 1: kind of style and characteristic. Where Jackie was very rough 198 00:11:49,880 --> 00:11:52,160 Speaker 1: around the edges and went in and was very direct 199 00:11:52,200 --> 00:11:54,000 Speaker 1: and said I want this, you give this to me. 200 00:11:54,760 --> 00:11:58,200 Speaker 1: Nancy said, hey, let's let's make this work. And people 201 00:11:58,280 --> 00:12:03,160 Speaker 1: liked Nancy, where often, um, Jackie, you either loved or 202 00:12:03,200 --> 00:12:07,920 Speaker 1: hated her. Right, And Nancy and Jackie both thought that 203 00:12:07,960 --> 00:12:11,000 Speaker 1: women could serve their country during the war, and that 204 00:12:11,080 --> 00:12:14,679 Speaker 1: was something they both had in common. They saw this 205 00:12:15,120 --> 00:12:19,120 Speaker 1: source of help for the United States as pilots during 206 00:12:19,160 --> 00:12:23,840 Speaker 1: the war. Nancy saw this idea of let's have an 207 00:12:23,880 --> 00:12:28,600 Speaker 1: elite group of women, just really women that already had licenses, 208 00:12:28,880 --> 00:12:33,200 Speaker 1: many of whom Nancy already knew, and let's have them 209 00:12:33,559 --> 00:12:37,880 Speaker 1: fairy planes. Jackie had a much bigger idea. She wanted 210 00:12:37,960 --> 00:12:41,040 Speaker 1: thousands of women to fly and do all these very 211 00:12:41,040 --> 00:12:44,839 Speaker 1: different jobs. So they had very different visions and they 212 00:12:44,880 --> 00:12:49,000 Speaker 1: had very different supporters coming in. Where Nancy had the 213 00:12:49,040 --> 00:12:54,080 Speaker 1: support of the Fairy Command General George General Tunner, Jackie 214 00:12:54,120 --> 00:12:57,280 Speaker 1: had General Arnold and and others who were supporting her 215 00:12:57,320 --> 00:12:59,600 Speaker 1: on the other side. So it was a clash of 216 00:12:59,640 --> 00:13:02,280 Speaker 1: idea is But then you have these two women who 217 00:13:02,400 --> 00:13:04,840 Speaker 1: had known each other for years. They belonged to the 218 00:13:04,880 --> 00:13:08,040 Speaker 1: same country club in Long Island, the Long Island Aviation 219 00:13:08,080 --> 00:13:10,520 Speaker 1: country Club. Who knew that there were things like this 220 00:13:10,679 --> 00:13:13,960 Speaker 1: right where they played tennis, but instead of golf, they 221 00:13:14,000 --> 00:13:17,240 Speaker 1: all flew in their airplanes to these clubs. So these 222 00:13:17,280 --> 00:13:21,240 Speaker 1: women knew each other before the war and weren't friends. 223 00:13:21,920 --> 00:13:24,000 Speaker 1: I don't know that they were enemies or rivals, but 224 00:13:24,080 --> 00:13:27,840 Speaker 1: they weren't friends. So you get those two different ideas, 225 00:13:28,000 --> 00:13:30,000 Speaker 1: and they both wanted to be leaders, and they both 226 00:13:30,040 --> 00:13:33,800 Speaker 1: believed in their ideas and some conflict is going to arise. 227 00:13:34,240 --> 00:13:36,320 Speaker 1: We're going to talk some more about the WASP in 228 00:13:36,360 --> 00:13:38,720 Speaker 1: a minute, but we're gonna have a moment for a 229 00:13:38,760 --> 00:13:50,520 Speaker 1: sponsor break. Reupliate. You alluded to this earlier. Jackie Cochrane 230 00:13:50,679 --> 00:13:55,679 Speaker 1: really seems to have had a memorable personality and one 231 00:13:55,720 --> 00:14:00,120 Speaker 1: that was like very distinctive. And one of the things 232 00:14:00,160 --> 00:14:02,840 Speaker 1: that really has stuck out to be in conversations about 233 00:14:02,840 --> 00:14:06,280 Speaker 1: the WASP is how over time the base where the 234 00:14:06,280 --> 00:14:11,640 Speaker 1: wasper training became known as Cochrane's Convent. Can you talk 235 00:14:11,679 --> 00:14:16,040 Speaker 1: about that a little bit. Yeah, So Jackie was very 236 00:14:16,080 --> 00:14:20,280 Speaker 1: conscious of her reputation, and she was conscious of the 237 00:14:20,320 --> 00:14:24,200 Speaker 1: reputation of the women who served under her, and she 238 00:14:24,600 --> 00:14:27,880 Speaker 1: did not want any scandals. This was a huge part 239 00:14:28,080 --> 00:14:32,560 Speaker 1: of her mantra and her mission that she gave to 240 00:14:32,640 --> 00:14:34,760 Speaker 1: the women who worked with her and helped run the 241 00:14:34,800 --> 00:14:37,520 Speaker 1: program is there will be no scandals. There will be 242 00:14:37,520 --> 00:14:40,920 Speaker 1: no pregnancies, there will be no drinking, there will be 243 00:14:40,960 --> 00:14:46,160 Speaker 1: no bad reputations for these women. Remember, you know, first, 244 00:14:46,160 --> 00:14:49,000 Speaker 1: there's this is a time here that's much more conservative 245 00:14:49,000 --> 00:14:52,560 Speaker 1: than our own day. But there was a huge scandal 246 00:14:53,040 --> 00:14:55,840 Speaker 1: I guess not really scandal. There was a huge campaign 247 00:14:56,160 --> 00:15:01,080 Speaker 1: against the Women's Army Corps, these women who volunteered and 248 00:15:01,120 --> 00:15:04,600 Speaker 1: served for the army uh, and a lot of bad 249 00:15:04,680 --> 00:15:10,720 Speaker 1: publicity calling these women they were either prostitutes or lesbians 250 00:15:10,880 --> 00:15:15,520 Speaker 1: or you know, just overall unacceptable women, right, not not 251 00:15:15,720 --> 00:15:18,280 Speaker 1: what women were supposed to be at the time, and 252 00:15:18,400 --> 00:15:22,440 Speaker 1: Jackie was terrified that her women would have some sort 253 00:15:22,480 --> 00:15:25,040 Speaker 1: of conflict in that way where the public would think 254 00:15:25,200 --> 00:15:29,160 Speaker 1: less of them. This is a period of great homophobia 255 00:15:29,240 --> 00:15:33,600 Speaker 1: and attitudes about women, so Jackie was very conscious of 256 00:15:33,640 --> 00:15:38,040 Speaker 1: that as well. So she was strict with these girls. 257 00:15:38,480 --> 00:15:40,360 Speaker 1: I say girls because that's what she called them all 258 00:15:40,400 --> 00:15:42,480 Speaker 1: the time. But she was very strict with these women. 259 00:15:42,560 --> 00:15:45,760 Speaker 1: She would not allow them to drink uh, And if 260 00:15:45,800 --> 00:15:49,640 Speaker 1: they got caught with alcohol on the place they were 261 00:15:50,160 --> 00:15:52,400 Speaker 1: sent out, they were shipped out. Now there's lots of 262 00:15:52,440 --> 00:15:55,120 Speaker 1: stories of these women keeping their bottles in the tanks 263 00:15:55,200 --> 00:15:58,360 Speaker 1: of the toilets because nobody checked there when they did 264 00:15:58,360 --> 00:16:01,240 Speaker 1: the inspections and that sort of thing. But you know, 265 00:16:01,680 --> 00:16:05,240 Speaker 1: she would not allow unmarried men to be on the field. 266 00:16:05,320 --> 00:16:09,400 Speaker 1: When the program first started, this was a scandal. At 267 00:16:09,480 --> 00:16:12,680 Speaker 1: least three women got pregnant in the early days of 268 00:16:12,720 --> 00:16:16,480 Speaker 1: the program. Uh. The story is that it was one 269 00:16:16,520 --> 00:16:19,320 Speaker 1: of the commanding officers, one of the early commanding officer 270 00:16:19,920 --> 00:16:24,800 Speaker 1: and as lieutenant Yes, and Jackie threw a fit got 271 00:16:24,840 --> 00:16:27,720 Speaker 1: the men both thrown out. She often bragged that she 272 00:16:27,800 --> 00:16:32,000 Speaker 1: sent one of them to the Illusions as punishment. Whether 273 00:16:32,080 --> 00:16:33,720 Speaker 1: she really could do that or not, but that's the 274 00:16:33,720 --> 00:16:37,120 Speaker 1: story she told. But she protected the reputation of the 275 00:16:37,120 --> 00:16:40,760 Speaker 1: women because nobody ever found out that women got pregnant. 276 00:16:40,800 --> 00:16:42,880 Speaker 1: So it's not that there wasn't a scandal, it's there 277 00:16:43,160 --> 00:16:45,440 Speaker 1: wasn't a problem, as Jackie would have seen it, but 278 00:16:45,520 --> 00:16:49,240 Speaker 1: nobody saw it. So she very quickly clamped down on 279 00:16:49,280 --> 00:16:52,720 Speaker 1: this whole place. She when they moved to Sweetwater, Texas, 280 00:16:52,880 --> 00:16:56,080 Speaker 1: she gets all the men off the field. There's unmarried 281 00:16:56,080 --> 00:16:59,760 Speaker 1: men or married men are the flight instructors. Married men 282 00:16:59,800 --> 00:17:01,840 Speaker 1: are the army officers that are on the field. She's 283 00:17:01,840 --> 00:17:05,480 Speaker 1: not gonna allow any. And there were nearby bases where 284 00:17:05,520 --> 00:17:09,879 Speaker 1: men were training as well. They all heard about these women. 285 00:17:10,720 --> 00:17:13,760 Speaker 1: You know, an airfield full of women who loved airplanes 286 00:17:13,800 --> 00:17:15,720 Speaker 1: and knew how to flyer planes. So all these men 287 00:17:15,760 --> 00:17:19,760 Speaker 1: would come in and fly in and oh, my planes broken, 288 00:17:19,840 --> 00:17:23,520 Speaker 1: I better land. Uh, and you know, see all these 289 00:17:23,560 --> 00:17:27,720 Speaker 1: these women, and very quickly the base was completely off 290 00:17:27,800 --> 00:17:31,639 Speaker 1: the radar. Nobody was allowed to land there unless you know, 291 00:17:31,920 --> 00:17:34,760 Speaker 1: they were crashing and on fire kind of thing. She 292 00:17:34,880 --> 00:17:38,439 Speaker 1: was going to keep them locked down, and so it 293 00:17:38,440 --> 00:17:42,000 Speaker 1: becomes known as Cochrane's Convent because she just was absolutely 294 00:17:42,040 --> 00:17:45,240 Speaker 1: going to protect the reputation of the women, thus protecting 295 00:17:45,480 --> 00:17:49,240 Speaker 1: her own reputation. Yeah, um, so we're we're not going 296 00:17:49,280 --> 00:17:52,119 Speaker 1: to go through too much more about the WASP, just 297 00:17:52,160 --> 00:17:55,440 Speaker 1: because you were so gracious to spend two entire episodes 298 00:17:55,520 --> 00:17:57,400 Speaker 1: talking to me about the WASP a few years ago, 299 00:17:58,119 --> 00:18:00,800 Speaker 1: and those are all still in the archive. Something that 300 00:18:00,920 --> 00:18:05,520 Speaker 1: I didn't remember that Jackie Cochrane was part of was 301 00:18:05,600 --> 00:18:10,280 Speaker 1: the Mercury thirteen. So to jump ahead to the space program, 302 00:18:10,320 --> 00:18:13,639 Speaker 1: we've mentioned the Mercury thirteen briefly on the show before. 303 00:18:13,800 --> 00:18:17,520 Speaker 1: These were women who were training to be astronauts. Talk 304 00:18:17,560 --> 00:18:19,840 Speaker 1: to us a little about that. So there's a great 305 00:18:19,880 --> 00:18:23,639 Speaker 1: book about these women that it was by Margaret Widecamp, 306 00:18:23,680 --> 00:18:26,680 Speaker 1: who's a curator at the Smithsonian National Airspace Museum, called 307 00:18:26,760 --> 00:18:30,879 Speaker 1: Right Stuff, Wrong Sex, and she goes into the whole program. 308 00:18:30,920 --> 00:18:35,359 Speaker 1: So I highly recommend it. But Jackie was in those 309 00:18:35,400 --> 00:18:39,040 Speaker 1: post war years, Jackie was very much involved in everything, 310 00:18:39,720 --> 00:18:42,240 Speaker 1: very much kept her close ties with the Air Force, 311 00:18:43,000 --> 00:18:45,439 Speaker 1: advocated for the Independent Air Force, and helped with that, 312 00:18:45,960 --> 00:18:49,520 Speaker 1: friends with Chuck Yeager, all those things. And when this 313 00:18:49,640 --> 00:18:54,560 Speaker 1: idea of the men astronauts started, right, NASA begins and 314 00:18:54,600 --> 00:18:58,119 Speaker 1: you get the Mercury astronauts and they're doing all the testing. 315 00:18:58,560 --> 00:19:00,520 Speaker 1: And if you've seen the film the Rights stuff, that 316 00:19:00,720 --> 00:19:02,760 Speaker 1: one of the big scenes in it is when they're 317 00:19:02,800 --> 00:19:05,920 Speaker 1: going through this medical testing and they're at the Lovelace Clinic. 318 00:19:06,520 --> 00:19:09,480 Speaker 1: Randy Lovelace was the medical doctor who was doing all 319 00:19:09,480 --> 00:19:14,480 Speaker 1: this medical testing for to prepare for space. And what 320 00:19:14,560 --> 00:19:17,320 Speaker 1: Jackie did was she helped fund She was friends with 321 00:19:17,400 --> 00:19:22,239 Speaker 1: Lovelace and helped fund bringing in thirteen women to go 322 00:19:22,359 --> 00:19:26,200 Speaker 1: through this medical testing to see if women could physically 323 00:19:26,440 --> 00:19:30,000 Speaker 1: do the same thing, if women could potentially be astronauts 324 00:19:30,040 --> 00:19:33,119 Speaker 1: right at NASA as well, and she she helped fund it. 325 00:19:33,320 --> 00:19:35,240 Speaker 1: And you have a number of these women that went 326 00:19:35,280 --> 00:19:39,920 Speaker 1: through the training and passed the tests and did all 327 00:19:39,960 --> 00:19:42,399 Speaker 1: the same things that you see in the right stuff 328 00:19:42,440 --> 00:19:46,440 Speaker 1: that the men were doing, and all those horrible experiments 329 00:19:46,480 --> 00:19:50,199 Speaker 1: and isolation and everything, and the women went through the 330 00:19:50,240 --> 00:19:54,560 Speaker 1: same thing. But but NASA makes very clear that they 331 00:19:54,600 --> 00:19:57,800 Speaker 1: are not interested in women being astronauts. They are not 332 00:19:57,840 --> 00:20:01,560 Speaker 1: going to allow it. The man astronauts do not want 333 00:20:01,680 --> 00:20:04,919 Speaker 1: women astronauts to be a part of it either, and 334 00:20:05,000 --> 00:20:08,919 Speaker 1: so Jackie cuts the funding and says, well, if NASA 335 00:20:08,960 --> 00:20:11,080 Speaker 1: doesn't want it, and the men don't want it, and 336 00:20:11,160 --> 00:20:14,040 Speaker 1: Congress doesn't want it, I'm not going to pay for it. 337 00:20:15,040 --> 00:20:17,680 Speaker 1: There's a side rumor that Jackie wanted to be one 338 00:20:17,680 --> 00:20:20,680 Speaker 1: of the women, of course was too old by them, 339 00:20:21,160 --> 00:20:24,760 Speaker 1: but but yeah, it's it's one of those moments in 340 00:20:24,840 --> 00:20:28,480 Speaker 1: time that Jackie does things where she funds things until 341 00:20:28,520 --> 00:20:32,560 Speaker 1: there's too much pushback, especially by the men who are involved, 342 00:20:32,600 --> 00:20:36,520 Speaker 1: and then and then withdraws to support. Yeah. I didn't 343 00:20:36,520 --> 00:20:39,600 Speaker 1: really I didn't know uh as much about her funding 344 00:20:39,640 --> 00:20:42,680 Speaker 1: it at all. Um. One of the things that's interesting 345 00:20:42,680 --> 00:20:45,160 Speaker 1: to me about both the WASP and the Mercury thirteen 346 00:20:45,400 --> 00:20:49,040 Speaker 1: is that there was a similar focus on the publicity 347 00:20:49,080 --> 00:20:52,640 Speaker 1: aspect of them. So there would be sort of photo 348 00:20:52,720 --> 00:20:57,800 Speaker 1: shoots of women powdering their noses at the plane, or 349 00:20:58,240 --> 00:21:01,960 Speaker 1: sort of pose shots of of women doing in quotation 350 00:21:02,040 --> 00:21:06,680 Speaker 1: marks feminine things, um with the space program and UM, 351 00:21:06,720 --> 00:21:10,080 Speaker 1: it's just interesting to me that that that idea was 352 00:21:10,160 --> 00:21:16,680 Speaker 1: continuing from the war on through into the Space program. Yeah. Absolutely, 353 00:21:16,720 --> 00:21:19,879 Speaker 1: and I think that, you know, that's any time women 354 00:21:19,960 --> 00:21:22,919 Speaker 1: in aviation, especially we're doing these things and kind of 355 00:21:22,920 --> 00:21:26,560 Speaker 1: pushing that limit of, you know, what was socially acceptable, 356 00:21:26,760 --> 00:21:30,040 Speaker 1: because aviation has been seen as a pretty masculine space. 357 00:21:30,320 --> 00:21:33,960 Speaker 1: You know, aviation has and space has, and so the 358 00:21:34,040 --> 00:21:38,439 Speaker 1: women often were encouraged and anytime Jackie was involved, it 359 00:21:38,480 --> 00:21:43,040 Speaker 1: was mandatory that they present themselves as non threatening, that 360 00:21:43,280 --> 00:21:46,920 Speaker 1: very feminine. You know, we're doing our hair, we're doing 361 00:21:46,920 --> 00:21:49,560 Speaker 1: our nails, we're putting our lipstick on, and the reflection 362 00:21:49,640 --> 00:21:53,000 Speaker 1: of the plane, see where where women would just happened 363 00:21:53,040 --> 00:21:56,560 Speaker 1: to be women who fly airplanes really fast, so that 364 00:21:56,560 --> 00:22:00,840 Speaker 1: that keeping that femininity it was very important to Jie. Yeah, 365 00:22:00,880 --> 00:22:03,240 Speaker 1: this was also something that was outside of the world 366 00:22:03,240 --> 00:22:06,040 Speaker 1: of aviation. Two. We did an episode not that long 367 00:22:06,040 --> 00:22:09,480 Speaker 1: ago about the All American Girls Professional Baseball League, which 368 00:22:09,520 --> 00:22:14,920 Speaker 1: similarly was focused on conventionally attractive white women who had 369 00:22:14,960 --> 00:22:16,960 Speaker 1: to wear lipstick and had to dress a certain way, 370 00:22:17,000 --> 00:22:19,560 Speaker 1: and even their uniforms were made so that they looked 371 00:22:19,600 --> 00:22:23,879 Speaker 1: like the the right kind of women in quotation marks. 372 00:22:23,960 --> 00:22:27,280 Speaker 1: So in addition to all this, Uh, she had a 373 00:22:27,320 --> 00:22:30,359 Speaker 1: political career. There are a lot of people that that 374 00:22:30,640 --> 00:22:37,320 Speaker 1: credit Jacqueline Cochrane with convincing Dwight Eisenhower to run for president. Um. 375 00:22:37,359 --> 00:22:41,040 Speaker 1: And then she also attempted to have a political career 376 00:22:41,040 --> 00:22:43,520 Speaker 1: of her own. She ran for Congress in nineteen fifties. 377 00:22:43,560 --> 00:22:47,440 Speaker 1: Six and you mentioned this race, uh briefly in your 378 00:22:47,600 --> 00:22:49,600 Speaker 1: in your book, Um, can you tell us a little 379 00:22:49,600 --> 00:22:53,480 Speaker 1: about it? Yeah, So jack you again was very ambitious 380 00:22:53,520 --> 00:22:58,160 Speaker 1: and uh definitely supported Eisenhower. Her papers are actually at 381 00:22:58,160 --> 00:23:02,120 Speaker 1: the Eisenhower Library in Kansas right now. She donated them 382 00:23:02,119 --> 00:23:06,080 Speaker 1: there because she was so loyal to Eisenhower and having him. 383 00:23:06,200 --> 00:23:08,160 Speaker 1: She had him out to the ranch and he wrote 384 00:23:08,160 --> 00:23:11,399 Speaker 1: his memoirs in one of their cottages and played golf 385 00:23:11,480 --> 00:23:14,199 Speaker 1: there and all of those things. But she decided to 386 00:23:14,800 --> 00:23:18,480 Speaker 1: run for Congress herself, which was very bold for Jackie. 387 00:23:19,000 --> 00:23:23,679 Speaker 1: It pushed those limits, all right. It was a very 388 00:23:23,920 --> 00:23:30,439 Speaker 1: ugly race. She said some very unkind racist things about 389 00:23:30,480 --> 00:23:35,400 Speaker 1: her opponent, and she he said some very unkind sexist 390 00:23:35,440 --> 00:23:39,520 Speaker 1: things about her, calling her that woman. Uh, And uh, 391 00:23:39,920 --> 00:23:43,320 Speaker 1: she was not successful, and it was very disappointing to her. 392 00:23:43,400 --> 00:23:48,440 Speaker 1: She flew her own plane from place to place promoting herself. 393 00:23:48,560 --> 00:23:51,520 Speaker 1: She had written a memoir called The Stars at Noon, 394 00:23:52,680 --> 00:23:55,320 Speaker 1: which was kind of a biography, I think, in part 395 00:23:55,400 --> 00:23:58,320 Speaker 1: to help promote this plan so people would know more 396 00:23:58,359 --> 00:24:02,080 Speaker 1: about her. And that biography of course supported her whole 397 00:24:02,240 --> 00:24:05,160 Speaker 1: made up story about being the orphan child and things 398 00:24:05,200 --> 00:24:09,040 Speaker 1: like that, and it was named after her achievement of 399 00:24:09,880 --> 00:24:12,840 Speaker 1: breaking the speed of sound and that sort of thing. 400 00:24:12,880 --> 00:24:15,760 Speaker 1: But but yeah, she she was very ambitious and was 401 00:24:15,920 --> 00:24:19,960 Speaker 1: very disappointed she did not win, uh that race. Yeah, 402 00:24:20,040 --> 00:24:23,880 Speaker 1: it was a fairly close race too, I think. So 403 00:24:24,000 --> 00:24:26,000 Speaker 1: we're going to take another quick break before we talk 404 00:24:26,040 --> 00:24:28,359 Speaker 1: a little bit more about how she was kind of 405 00:24:28,359 --> 00:24:41,760 Speaker 1: a complicated person. There are some aspects of Jacqueline Cochrane's 406 00:24:41,800 --> 00:24:44,440 Speaker 1: life and work and legacy that are a little complicated. 407 00:24:44,640 --> 00:24:47,880 Speaker 1: Beyond the things about sort of fabricating a background and 408 00:24:47,920 --> 00:24:50,320 Speaker 1: reinventing herself as a different person and all of that. 409 00:24:51,040 --> 00:24:54,920 Speaker 1: She was such a huge advocate for the women Air 410 00:24:54,960 --> 00:24:59,600 Speaker 1: Force Service pilots to exist. But then after the war, 411 00:25:00,040 --> 00:25:02,480 Speaker 1: when when everybody was trying to figure out, like, what 412 00:25:02,560 --> 00:25:05,600 Speaker 1: is the role of women in the military. She advocated 413 00:25:06,119 --> 00:25:10,640 Speaker 1: against women flying for the military, so women could be 414 00:25:10,800 --> 00:25:14,000 Speaker 1: in the Air Force Reserve, but not as pilots. Can 415 00:25:14,000 --> 00:25:16,080 Speaker 1: you talk about that? Yeah, this is one of those 416 00:25:16,119 --> 00:25:19,800 Speaker 1: moments in time that Jackie is so complicated, and she 417 00:25:19,880 --> 00:25:21,560 Speaker 1: has a lot of supporters. A lot of the WASP 418 00:25:21,760 --> 00:25:24,000 Speaker 1: just were so grateful to her, and and a lot 419 00:25:24,040 --> 00:25:27,639 Speaker 1: of the modern women pilots thinks she, you know, was 420 00:25:27,680 --> 00:25:30,520 Speaker 1: a real badass, which she was. Can I say that 421 00:25:31,960 --> 00:25:35,560 Speaker 1: we disharmined that recently? Good good, good, good, right? Um? 422 00:25:35,680 --> 00:25:38,359 Speaker 1: But but you know, she she has a lot of admirers. 423 00:25:38,400 --> 00:25:41,119 Speaker 1: The Air Force Academy has her sword and a case, 424 00:25:41,359 --> 00:25:43,960 Speaker 1: you know, right in a big place of prominence and 425 00:25:44,280 --> 00:25:48,120 Speaker 1: things like that. But Jackie was also very conservative when 426 00:25:48,119 --> 00:25:50,879 Speaker 1: it came to women's roles, and she was very conservative 427 00:25:50,920 --> 00:25:56,440 Speaker 1: when it came to spending money. And she believed, and 428 00:25:56,600 --> 00:25:59,720 Speaker 1: she says this, she she fought against women getting into 429 00:25:59,720 --> 00:26:01,800 Speaker 1: the Air Force Academy because she thought it would be 430 00:26:02,200 --> 00:26:07,600 Speaker 1: waste of money. And Jackie believe that normal women and 431 00:26:07,640 --> 00:26:11,600 Speaker 1: she's this is these are her words, normal women get 432 00:26:11,640 --> 00:26:16,720 Speaker 1: married and have children, and so any money that the 433 00:26:16,800 --> 00:26:20,840 Speaker 1: Air Force spent training pilots would be a waste of 434 00:26:20,880 --> 00:26:23,119 Speaker 1: money and a waste of time because all the women 435 00:26:23,160 --> 00:26:25,639 Speaker 1: were just going to leave and have babies anyway. So 436 00:26:25,720 --> 00:26:28,399 Speaker 1: this is the same argument that's used against you know, 437 00:26:28,520 --> 00:26:33,719 Speaker 1: giving women, you know, clerkships as lawyers, or giving women 438 00:26:33,840 --> 00:26:37,480 Speaker 1: internships once they've gotten their medical degree, if they've even 439 00:26:37,520 --> 00:26:41,480 Speaker 1: been admitted to medical school. All those same arguments against 440 00:26:41,520 --> 00:26:46,119 Speaker 1: giving women those opportunities Jackie used as well, despite the 441 00:26:46,160 --> 00:26:48,920 Speaker 1: fact that she was out there breaking the speed of 442 00:26:49,160 --> 00:26:52,879 Speaker 1: sound and flying all these air races and doing all 443 00:26:52,920 --> 00:26:57,400 Speaker 1: these extraordinary things. But she talks about that was her 444 00:26:57,440 --> 00:27:00,320 Speaker 1: greatest regret, that she didn't have more children, that she 445 00:27:01,440 --> 00:27:05,280 Speaker 1: didn't have a normal life. And I think it's so hard. 446 00:27:05,760 --> 00:27:07,439 Speaker 1: You know, it was late in her life that she 447 00:27:07,560 --> 00:27:09,560 Speaker 1: was saying these things, and I think it's so hard 448 00:27:09,600 --> 00:27:13,879 Speaker 1: to put those two realities together. Who she was even 449 00:27:13,920 --> 00:27:18,040 Speaker 1: when she was young, and who she became and who 450 00:27:18,119 --> 00:27:22,919 Speaker 1: she believed that she was. But yeah, she she didn't 451 00:27:23,640 --> 00:27:27,800 Speaker 1: she wanted women to fly, and she wanted women to 452 00:27:27,880 --> 00:27:31,280 Speaker 1: be pilots. But she was very consistent even from the 453 00:27:31,359 --> 00:27:36,080 Speaker 1: nineteen thirties and saying women shouldn't be commercial pilots. Nobody 454 00:27:36,080 --> 00:27:39,240 Speaker 1: wants to be in a commercial airplane behind women. And 455 00:27:39,280 --> 00:27:42,520 Speaker 1: this is a time in the thirties when Amelia heard 456 00:27:42,680 --> 00:27:45,560 Speaker 1: and Helen Ritchie and all these people are saying, of 457 00:27:45,600 --> 00:27:49,480 Speaker 1: course women can be airline pilots. Jackie is very consistent 458 00:27:49,560 --> 00:27:53,720 Speaker 1: with that throughout the nineteen fifties, sixties, seventies, that women 459 00:27:53,800 --> 00:27:57,440 Speaker 1: should be pilots, but they should do those other flying jobs. 460 00:27:57,480 --> 00:28:01,040 Speaker 1: They should do air races, but they should be you know, 461 00:28:01,680 --> 00:28:06,640 Speaker 1: pilots of planes that that take photographs or polite instructors 462 00:28:06,680 --> 00:28:09,880 Speaker 1: and more traditional jobs, but not airline pilots and not 463 00:28:10,640 --> 00:28:13,760 Speaker 1: military pilots. Even though she had all these women as 464 00:28:13,760 --> 00:28:17,840 Speaker 1: military pilots during the war, she fought tooth and nailed 465 00:28:17,880 --> 00:28:21,000 Speaker 1: to get them into all these different airplanes to prove 466 00:28:21,080 --> 00:28:23,479 Speaker 1: that women could do all these things. But she just 467 00:28:23,680 --> 00:28:27,840 Speaker 1: after the war totally walked away from that position. It's 468 00:28:27,960 --> 00:28:31,840 Speaker 1: very strange. Yeah. Well, and I feel like we talked 469 00:28:31,920 --> 00:28:34,360 Speaker 1: before in the earlier episode about the LOP about how 470 00:28:34,400 --> 00:28:38,560 Speaker 1: that program was meant to be releasing men to do 471 00:28:39,840 --> 00:28:42,720 Speaker 1: so to fly in combat, basically to do other necessary 472 00:28:42,720 --> 00:28:46,720 Speaker 1: wartime work, and it was not about replacing men. So 473 00:28:48,120 --> 00:28:50,040 Speaker 1: all these things that they were doing to kind of 474 00:28:50,280 --> 00:28:55,360 Speaker 1: mitigate the perceived threat to men and men's positions within 475 00:28:55,400 --> 00:28:58,680 Speaker 1: the military um and it's it's one of those things 476 00:28:58,680 --> 00:29:01,840 Speaker 1: that sort of makes some sense in the context of 477 00:29:01,920 --> 00:29:04,840 Speaker 1: the war and making people comfortable with something that they 478 00:29:04,880 --> 00:29:07,920 Speaker 1: were not comfortable with during the war, But then the 479 00:29:07,920 --> 00:29:11,360 Speaker 1: fact that it continued after the war was over is 480 00:29:12,000 --> 00:29:13,840 Speaker 1: like where it to me, becomes just a lot more 481 00:29:14,120 --> 00:29:17,480 Speaker 1: contradictory in terms of UM what you sort of imagine 482 00:29:17,560 --> 00:29:20,000 Speaker 1: somebody who fought so hard for the women who were 483 00:29:20,000 --> 00:29:23,200 Speaker 1: working with her to do afterward. There's a moment in 484 00:29:23,720 --> 00:29:26,560 Speaker 1: your book where I think she goes to a reunion, 485 00:29:26,600 --> 00:29:29,720 Speaker 1: she goes to some gathering afterward, and it's like the 486 00:29:29,760 --> 00:29:32,920 Speaker 1: women there who saw her as a big supporter of them, like, 487 00:29:33,040 --> 00:29:35,560 Speaker 1: didn't even really know that she had just been arguing 488 00:29:35,720 --> 00:29:39,880 Speaker 1: against their being able to fly with the Air Force. Yeah, yeah, Yeah, 489 00:29:39,920 --> 00:29:43,520 Speaker 1: she'd been she'd given testimony, and you know, I went 490 00:29:43,560 --> 00:29:47,400 Speaker 1: in and read the testimony that she gave before the 491 00:29:47,440 --> 00:29:51,280 Speaker 1: Senate in the nineteen seventies, and the senators had brought 492 00:29:51,280 --> 00:29:53,560 Speaker 1: her in and you can almost hear them, you know, 493 00:29:53,560 --> 00:29:55,920 Speaker 1: you're just reading the transcript, but you can almost hear 494 00:29:55,960 --> 00:29:59,680 Speaker 1: how stunned they were bringing this woman in who had 495 00:30:00,160 --> 00:30:03,720 Speaker 1: fought so hard to get women into those planes during 496 00:30:03,720 --> 00:30:07,320 Speaker 1: World War Two and fought so hard to say women 497 00:30:07,360 --> 00:30:10,400 Speaker 1: can do this flying. They can fly anything you give them, 498 00:30:10,400 --> 00:30:13,200 Speaker 1: just give them a chance. And then in the seventies 499 00:30:13,200 --> 00:30:16,320 Speaker 1: she's saying, no, you absolutely shouldn't let women into the 500 00:30:16,360 --> 00:30:19,360 Speaker 1: Air Force academy. You absolutely shouldn't let women fly these 501 00:30:19,360 --> 00:30:23,720 Speaker 1: military planes. They can do it, of course, obviously, but 502 00:30:24,360 --> 00:30:27,280 Speaker 1: they shouldn't because they should all be home having babies. 503 00:30:27,480 --> 00:30:30,000 Speaker 1: Do you think any of this was in her mind 504 00:30:30,000 --> 00:30:33,720 Speaker 1: a response to the women's liberation movement and sort of 505 00:30:33,720 --> 00:30:37,160 Speaker 1: a push back against that. I think, um, you know, 506 00:30:37,240 --> 00:30:40,840 Speaker 1: I've wondered that myself, and she was definitely not a 507 00:30:40,880 --> 00:30:47,000 Speaker 1: women's liber But she's so contradictory. She does all these 508 00:30:47,040 --> 00:30:49,520 Speaker 1: things and she wants to beat them, and she doesn't 509 00:30:49,520 --> 00:30:52,760 Speaker 1: want to what she's air racing and what she's doing 510 00:30:52,760 --> 00:30:56,280 Speaker 1: all these records. She doesn't want to win the women's records. 511 00:30:56,320 --> 00:30:58,360 Speaker 1: She doesn't want to win the women's races. She didn't 512 00:30:58,360 --> 00:31:01,160 Speaker 1: do women's air races. She wanted to race against the 513 00:31:01,200 --> 00:31:03,920 Speaker 1: men and wanted to beat the men, and wanted to 514 00:31:03,960 --> 00:31:07,160 Speaker 1: break the sound speed of sound because she could, and 515 00:31:07,200 --> 00:31:10,040 Speaker 1: she did it three times on one day, and all 516 00:31:10,120 --> 00:31:13,960 Speaker 1: these things. But but yeah, and then she doesn't want 517 00:31:14,000 --> 00:31:17,800 Speaker 1: women to have these opportunities. And at least to a conflict. 518 00:31:17,840 --> 00:31:20,360 Speaker 1: There's um one of the women who had who had 519 00:31:20,400 --> 00:31:24,840 Speaker 1: been one of these fellow lady astronaut trainees that Mercury thirteen, 520 00:31:24,920 --> 00:31:27,680 Speaker 1: one of them had been a WASP and was at 521 00:31:27,680 --> 00:31:30,960 Speaker 1: a reunion with Jackie and came up to her and said, hey, 522 00:31:31,280 --> 00:31:34,320 Speaker 1: and because one of the reasons Congress said women couldn't 523 00:31:34,360 --> 00:31:38,600 Speaker 1: be in the astronaut corps was because they weren't jet pilots. Right, 524 00:31:38,640 --> 00:31:40,440 Speaker 1: if you look at all the men who were astronauts, 525 00:31:40,480 --> 00:31:42,760 Speaker 1: they were all jets, and they said, no, you can't, 526 00:31:43,240 --> 00:31:45,400 Speaker 1: you can't be in because you're not jet pilots. Well, 527 00:31:45,520 --> 00:31:50,520 Speaker 1: Jackie was flying military jets because her husband was buying 528 00:31:50,560 --> 00:31:53,800 Speaker 1: the companies that owned the jets so that she could 529 00:31:53,800 --> 00:31:56,120 Speaker 1: do the test flights in them and do all these things. 530 00:31:56,120 --> 00:32:00,080 Speaker 1: So she had all these opportunities. And Jackie's confronted is 531 00:32:00,800 --> 00:32:03,040 Speaker 1: you know, why can you do all these things and 532 00:32:03,080 --> 00:32:06,640 Speaker 1: we can't. Well, you can do whatever you want, just 533 00:32:06,960 --> 00:32:11,200 Speaker 1: you know, go away. Goodness knew her own contradictory nous 534 00:32:11,960 --> 00:32:17,800 Speaker 1: and just she's so complicated, she was so sincere about it. Yes, 535 00:32:19,080 --> 00:32:24,080 Speaker 1: you mentioned earlier during that that congressional race that some 536 00:32:24,160 --> 00:32:26,560 Speaker 1: of her comments about her opponent, he was from India, 537 00:32:26,720 --> 00:32:30,560 Speaker 1: were racist and part of her legacy with the WASP 538 00:32:30,760 --> 00:32:34,840 Speaker 1: included working to keep the WASP racially segregated. Can you 539 00:32:34,880 --> 00:32:38,280 Speaker 1: talk about that a little. Yeah, So, you know this 540 00:32:38,400 --> 00:32:41,320 Speaker 1: idea of the WASP being an all white organization. You know, 541 00:32:41,320 --> 00:32:44,440 Speaker 1: there were two Chinese Americans, one Native American, but there 542 00:32:44,440 --> 00:32:47,720 Speaker 1: were no black women pilots. And actually, since the last 543 00:32:47,760 --> 00:32:50,600 Speaker 1: time we've talked, I've found the names of at least 544 00:32:50,600 --> 00:32:53,520 Speaker 1: six black women who applied who all appear to have 545 00:32:53,560 --> 00:32:58,480 Speaker 1: been qualified to have joined the WASP. And Jackie wasn't 546 00:32:58,520 --> 00:33:02,240 Speaker 1: willing to step beyond that barrier. You know, the armed 547 00:33:02,280 --> 00:33:05,600 Speaker 1: forces were segregated at the time, and she wasn't willing 548 00:33:05,640 --> 00:33:09,520 Speaker 1: to step past that to invite black women. And you 549 00:33:09,640 --> 00:33:13,760 Speaker 1: study her oral histories, she's she did many oral histories 550 00:33:13,760 --> 00:33:17,080 Speaker 1: over the years, and she talked about it and talked 551 00:33:17,120 --> 00:33:20,520 Speaker 1: about she would have been fine letting black women in. 552 00:33:20,760 --> 00:33:24,920 Speaker 1: But you know, the armed forces were segregated, and they 553 00:33:24,960 --> 00:33:27,680 Speaker 1: trained in the South, and they had bases in the South, 554 00:33:27,880 --> 00:33:31,600 Speaker 1: and you couldn't have an integrated unit. And she talked 555 00:33:31,640 --> 00:33:35,320 Speaker 1: about that she liked black people, and she, you know, 556 00:33:35,600 --> 00:33:39,240 Speaker 1: had hired black people in her office in Washington, d C. 557 00:33:39,520 --> 00:33:43,120 Speaker 1: Because these were black women were the hardest working and 558 00:33:43,240 --> 00:33:45,560 Speaker 1: the best and and things like that. So she she 559 00:33:45,680 --> 00:33:48,680 Speaker 1: talks about this in a way that she doesn't want 560 00:33:48,680 --> 00:33:52,200 Speaker 1: to seem racist and doesn't want to be believed to 561 00:33:52,240 --> 00:33:56,400 Speaker 1: be racist. So it's a really interesting an interesting mix 562 00:33:56,680 --> 00:33:59,800 Speaker 1: of she's not going to give these opportunities, but she 563 00:34:00,200 --> 00:34:03,360 Speaker 1: hires black women to work in her office and d 564 00:34:03,440 --> 00:34:07,120 Speaker 1: C almost exclusively. You know, she'd make made a joke 565 00:34:07,200 --> 00:34:09,000 Speaker 1: in one of her Earl histories that they called her 566 00:34:09,040 --> 00:34:12,040 Speaker 1: office in the Pentagon little Harlem because it was all 567 00:34:12,080 --> 00:34:16,720 Speaker 1: these black women. Yeah, and but then she doesn't allow 568 00:34:16,800 --> 00:34:20,040 Speaker 1: black women in as pilots, and yeah, in her race 569 00:34:20,080 --> 00:34:25,000 Speaker 1: in California, she calls him all sorts of names. Racism 570 00:34:25,040 --> 00:34:29,360 Speaker 1: is racism, but it's racism of her time, if that 571 00:34:29,440 --> 00:34:33,000 Speaker 1: makes sense, just as his was sexism of his time. 572 00:34:33,040 --> 00:34:37,200 Speaker 1: And again, she's so complicated that, you know, people say, 573 00:34:37,440 --> 00:34:39,640 Speaker 1: you know, if you could go back and have dinner 574 00:34:39,760 --> 00:34:41,799 Speaker 1: with anyone in the past, who would it be. It's 575 00:34:41,840 --> 00:34:44,520 Speaker 1: like Jackie would be really on the top of my 576 00:34:44,600 --> 00:34:48,120 Speaker 1: list just so I could figure her out. Yeah, yeah, Well, 577 00:34:48,160 --> 00:34:52,520 Speaker 1: and that's she had such a big life and did 578 00:34:52,600 --> 00:34:54,560 Speaker 1: so many things, and so many of the things that 579 00:34:54,600 --> 00:34:58,080 Speaker 1: she did were genuinely amazing. Yeah. I mean, when you 580 00:34:58,160 --> 00:35:00,640 Speaker 1: look at her record as a pie lit when you 581 00:35:00,680 --> 00:35:07,920 Speaker 1: look at her going from such poverty two working her 582 00:35:07,920 --> 00:35:12,120 Speaker 1: way out of that and founding this successful cosmetics company 583 00:35:12,200 --> 00:35:17,040 Speaker 1: and doing all these things, that's really incredible. So all 584 00:35:17,080 --> 00:35:19,239 Speaker 1: that together is kind of a tangle. What do you 585 00:35:19,280 --> 00:35:23,239 Speaker 1: think is really important to know about her legacy today? 586 00:35:23,440 --> 00:35:27,800 Speaker 1: I think Jackie fought for everything she got. She fought 587 00:35:27,800 --> 00:35:31,719 Speaker 1: for every single thing, and she never gave up. And 588 00:35:31,800 --> 00:35:36,560 Speaker 1: she was so complicated and imperfect, but she had just 589 00:35:36,640 --> 00:35:39,920 Speaker 1: an insatiable drive. One of the women who worked for 590 00:35:39,960 --> 00:35:42,759 Speaker 1: her during the war, D. D. Dton, said that she 591 00:35:42,840 --> 00:35:45,759 Speaker 1: had a brain like a buzz saw. That was part 592 00:35:45,800 --> 00:35:48,399 Speaker 1: of part of who she was. That she she got 593 00:35:48,440 --> 00:35:51,279 Speaker 1: an idea and she just did it and made it 594 00:35:51,320 --> 00:35:54,239 Speaker 1: happen and didn't care who got in the way, what 595 00:35:54,360 --> 00:35:56,400 Speaker 1: knots there were in that would she was going to 596 00:35:56,480 --> 00:36:00,120 Speaker 1: cut right through them to achieve her goals. And she 597 00:36:00,239 --> 00:36:03,040 Speaker 1: was also incredibly generous, and I think that side of 598 00:36:03,040 --> 00:36:07,600 Speaker 1: her gets lost a lot. She helped uh. I think 599 00:36:07,640 --> 00:36:10,520 Speaker 1: talked briefly in the other episode that she took a 600 00:36:10,560 --> 00:36:15,200 Speaker 1: group of women to England to fly with the Air 601 00:36:15,239 --> 00:36:18,319 Speaker 1: Transport Auxiliary, and one of those American women was Ann 602 00:36:18,320 --> 00:36:22,520 Speaker 1: Wood Kelly and Anne talked in later years about that 603 00:36:22,640 --> 00:36:26,359 Speaker 1: she had had an unfortunate situation with her husband that 604 00:36:26,400 --> 00:36:29,520 Speaker 1: she had married in England and he wasn't letting her 605 00:36:29,600 --> 00:36:32,680 Speaker 1: leave with her son. And Jackie went over there and 606 00:36:32,760 --> 00:36:35,640 Speaker 1: made it happen and supported Anne when she came back 607 00:36:35,680 --> 00:36:38,600 Speaker 1: to the United States and made sure she was okay 608 00:36:38,640 --> 00:36:41,680 Speaker 1: and that her kid was okay, and just things like that, 609 00:36:41,760 --> 00:36:46,680 Speaker 1: and others talk about how Jackie donated um. There was 610 00:36:46,719 --> 00:36:48,960 Speaker 1: a group of Girl Scout troops from the town that 611 00:36:49,280 --> 00:36:52,160 Speaker 1: Jackie lived in, and they were going to go to 612 00:36:52,200 --> 00:36:55,360 Speaker 1: Europe really cheap, but they couldn't get across the country 613 00:36:55,440 --> 00:36:57,680 Speaker 1: because they had an old bus and no place to say, 614 00:36:57,719 --> 00:37:01,319 Speaker 1: and they couldn't afford it. And Jackie called ahead to 615 00:37:01,440 --> 00:37:04,560 Speaker 1: all the Air Force baces along the way and got 616 00:37:04,600 --> 00:37:08,160 Speaker 1: this group of Girl Scouts and their parents the right 617 00:37:08,280 --> 00:37:12,160 Speaker 1: to stay at these Air Force baces with you know, 618 00:37:12,280 --> 00:37:14,920 Speaker 1: v I p treatment all along the way, all the 619 00:37:14,960 --> 00:37:19,000 Speaker 1: cross country from California to the East coast. So it's 620 00:37:19,040 --> 00:37:30,480 Speaker 1: such a complicated legacy for Jackie, of generosity, of ruthlessness, ambition, insecurity, kindness. 621 00:37:31,239 --> 00:37:37,040 Speaker 1: She was one of the greatest pilots that ever lived. Period. Yeah, 622 00:37:37,120 --> 00:37:40,400 Speaker 1: I'm so glad that. I mean you you suggested that 623 00:37:40,520 --> 00:37:43,399 Speaker 1: maybe we do an episode about her back four years 624 00:37:43,400 --> 00:37:45,960 Speaker 1: ago when we talked about the WASP, and I was 625 00:37:45,960 --> 00:37:48,920 Speaker 1: a little reluctant because we we were trying not to 626 00:37:49,000 --> 00:37:52,120 Speaker 1: repeat topics that that earlier hosts had talked about. It 627 00:37:52,239 --> 00:37:55,239 Speaker 1: was like, we talked about that. But then as soon 628 00:37:55,320 --> 00:37:59,759 Speaker 1: as I read early on in your book some of 629 00:37:59,760 --> 00:38:03,799 Speaker 1: the conversation about her earlier life and how she sort 630 00:38:03,800 --> 00:38:05,200 Speaker 1: of said, I'm starting over. I'm going to be a 631 00:38:05,200 --> 00:38:08,920 Speaker 1: different person now, I was like that, Wait, I should 632 00:38:08,920 --> 00:38:16,680 Speaker 1: have listened to Kate four years ago. I'm very patient. Um. Well, 633 00:38:16,760 --> 00:38:21,400 Speaker 1: thank you again so much for sitting down with me today. Folks, 634 00:38:21,960 --> 00:38:25,279 Speaker 1: um are interested in your book again? It is The 635 00:38:25,280 --> 00:38:28,440 Speaker 1: Women with Silver Wings, The inspiring true story of the 636 00:38:28,480 --> 00:38:31,439 Speaker 1: Women Air Force Service Pilots of World War Two, by 637 00:38:31,520 --> 00:38:35,359 Speaker 1: Catherine sharp Landeck. Thank you again. Is there anything else 638 00:38:35,400 --> 00:38:38,200 Speaker 1: you want to share before we before we wrap up. 639 00:38:38,360 --> 00:38:40,520 Speaker 1: I think that's it. But thank you so much, Tracy. 640 00:38:40,560 --> 00:38:42,960 Speaker 1: It's always a pleasure talking with you. I appreciate it 641 00:38:43,000 --> 00:38:46,640 Speaker 1: so much. Thank you so so much. Thank you so 642 00:38:46,640 --> 00:38:50,200 Speaker 1: so much to Dr Catherine Sharp Landeck for joining us 643 00:38:50,600 --> 00:38:54,759 Speaker 1: on the show. I'm always so happy to talk to her. 644 00:38:55,080 --> 00:38:58,640 Speaker 1: She's incredibly knowledgeable about so many things. And before we 645 00:38:58,640 --> 00:39:02,000 Speaker 1: close out today's episode, I also have some listener mail. 646 00:39:02,560 --> 00:39:05,920 Speaker 1: Fantastic bring it on. This listener mail is from Corey, 647 00:39:06,080 --> 00:39:08,960 Speaker 1: and Corey says, Hi, Holly and Tracy, I've been meaning 648 00:39:09,000 --> 00:39:12,120 Speaker 1: to write this email to you for over six months, 649 00:39:12,120 --> 00:39:14,439 Speaker 1: but a last COVID hit in my world just got 650 00:39:14,440 --> 00:39:18,040 Speaker 1: flipped upside down. Corey goes on to talk about a 651 00:39:18,120 --> 00:39:20,920 Speaker 1: trip that she and her husband were planning to go on. 652 00:39:21,000 --> 00:39:26,120 Speaker 1: It was a cruise to Antarctica. Um after some unexpected 653 00:39:26,160 --> 00:39:30,040 Speaker 1: delays with that, they were finally able to go at 654 00:39:30,080 --> 00:39:33,759 Speaker 1: the tail end of twenty nineteen, and the email continues, 655 00:39:34,480 --> 00:39:38,120 Speaker 1: the scenery was magnificent. Whales were jumping as we cruised 656 00:39:38,120 --> 00:39:39,759 Speaker 1: out of the harbor, and I cried because I was 657 00:39:39,840 --> 00:39:41,799 Speaker 1: so happy we finally got to go on our big 658 00:39:41,880 --> 00:39:45,160 Speaker 1: dream vacation. At about four am on the twenty night. 659 00:39:45,200 --> 00:39:47,919 Speaker 1: They felt like ad mcgo made a horrible mistake. You see, 660 00:39:47,960 --> 00:39:50,479 Speaker 1: our boat was not very big. It only held about 661 00:39:50,480 --> 00:39:52,799 Speaker 1: a hundred and fifty passengers and crew. It was a 662 00:39:52,840 --> 00:39:55,799 Speaker 1: converted research vessel, and we were on the bottom of 663 00:39:55,840 --> 00:40:00,160 Speaker 1: the boat near the engines with one tiny porthole. It 664 00:40:00,239 --> 00:40:02,680 Speaker 1: was hotter than hades and the waves just started rolling 665 00:40:02,680 --> 00:40:05,719 Speaker 1: aside to side. That's when the nausea and anxiety hit. 666 00:40:05,760 --> 00:40:08,040 Speaker 1: And to top it off, I was fourteen weeks pregnant 667 00:40:08,080 --> 00:40:10,720 Speaker 1: with our first baby, which also meant that I couldn't 668 00:40:10,800 --> 00:40:13,200 Speaker 1: use the seasickness patch like the rest of the ship. 669 00:40:13,840 --> 00:40:15,840 Speaker 1: Because the waves are so big, we were forbidden to 670 00:40:15,880 --> 00:40:18,680 Speaker 1: go on deck to cool off. All this is to 671 00:40:18,719 --> 00:40:21,680 Speaker 1: say that I spent two point five days sleeping in 672 00:40:21,719 --> 00:40:25,000 Speaker 1: the lounge area, vomiting in front of strangers, and literally 673 00:40:25,080 --> 00:40:28,239 Speaker 1: crawling down the hallways to try on my gear. There 674 00:40:28,360 --> 00:40:32,400 Speaker 1: was but one beacon of light in this After fifty 675 00:40:32,440 --> 00:40:37,000 Speaker 1: five hours, by some divine intervention blessing from the podcast 676 00:40:37,040 --> 00:40:41,200 Speaker 1: Gods or Kiss Met, my phone had downloaded approximately two 677 00:40:41,280 --> 00:40:44,920 Speaker 1: hundred fifty old stuff you Missed in History Class episodes 678 00:40:45,000 --> 00:40:47,880 Speaker 1: to my podcast library. Most I had heard, but some 679 00:40:48,080 --> 00:40:50,440 Speaker 1: I had not. While my husband rang in the New 680 00:40:50,520 --> 00:40:53,399 Speaker 1: Year with fifty random strangers, I listened to episode after 681 00:40:53,480 --> 00:40:55,800 Speaker 1: episode of your show in the fetal position. So thank 682 00:40:55,840 --> 00:40:58,880 Speaker 1: you for making such an awesome show. You were a lifesaver. 683 00:40:59,600 --> 00:41:01,560 Speaker 1: I was just as bad on the way back, but 684 00:41:01,600 --> 00:41:03,400 Speaker 1: I was more prepared and I just hold up in 685 00:41:03,400 --> 00:41:05,759 Speaker 1: our tiny room that had finally cooled down and kept 686 00:41:05,800 --> 00:41:10,200 Speaker 1: listening to podcasts um by the way. Once we reached 687 00:41:10,239 --> 00:41:13,840 Speaker 1: Antarctic waters, everything was wonderful. It was truly the absolutely 688 00:41:13,840 --> 00:41:18,280 Speaker 1: best vacation we've ever taken. Hiking with penguins, kayaking with whales, 689 00:41:18,320 --> 00:41:21,320 Speaker 1: ice climbing for my first time in camping in twenty 690 00:41:21,360 --> 00:41:24,120 Speaker 1: four hours of the daylight were absolutely incredible experiences I'll 691 00:41:24,120 --> 00:41:27,279 Speaker 1: never forget, and having gotten to experience it right before 692 00:41:27,400 --> 00:41:30,520 Speaker 1: the pandemic makes me cherish it even more. I highly 693 00:41:30,560 --> 00:41:33,359 Speaker 1: recommend the trip. I'd even go back again when next 694 00:41:33,400 --> 00:41:35,960 Speaker 1: time we're flying. Thanks again, Um, and then Corey also 695 00:41:36,040 --> 00:41:38,720 Speaker 1: sent some pictures. Thank you so much for this email, Corey. 696 00:41:38,800 --> 00:41:41,640 Speaker 1: I just I wanted to read this because listeners to 697 00:41:41,640 --> 00:41:43,640 Speaker 1: the show have talked have heard me talk about going 698 00:41:43,680 --> 00:41:47,919 Speaker 1: on various cruises on several of them. I have been 699 00:41:47,960 --> 00:41:52,320 Speaker 1: stricken with sea sickness, not nearly as bad as this. Um. 700 00:41:52,360 --> 00:41:55,120 Speaker 1: I was not also pregnant at the time, which just 701 00:41:55,160 --> 00:41:58,120 Speaker 1: seems like would make it so much, so much worse. 702 00:41:58,600 --> 00:42:02,360 Speaker 1: But I have so much sympathy for Corey's sixties sickness 703 00:42:02,440 --> 00:42:04,320 Speaker 1: feels so bad and it can just put such a 704 00:42:04,400 --> 00:42:07,720 Speaker 1: such a damper on what was otherwise a very lovely trip. 705 00:42:08,239 --> 00:42:11,799 Speaker 1: So you have my thoughts with your your seasickness should 706 00:42:11,840 --> 00:42:14,520 Speaker 1: you ever go on another ocean voyage like this. And 707 00:42:14,560 --> 00:42:18,080 Speaker 1: I'm glad that the podcast was able to bring some 708 00:42:18,239 --> 00:42:22,520 Speaker 1: comfort during all of that. So anyway, thank you, thank 709 00:42:22,520 --> 00:42:25,680 Speaker 1: you again for sending this note. I know most people 710 00:42:25,719 --> 00:42:30,040 Speaker 1: are still not able to travel, so thank you also 711 00:42:30,120 --> 00:42:32,440 Speaker 1: for sending those pictures of Antarctica so we could just 712 00:42:32,520 --> 00:42:37,399 Speaker 1: have a little vicarious travel moment, a vacation in our minds. Yes, 713 00:42:37,480 --> 00:42:41,800 Speaker 1: of some pre pandemic travel. As is always the case, 714 00:42:42,000 --> 00:42:44,600 Speaker 1: we hope so much that everybody is taking as much 715 00:42:44,640 --> 00:42:47,439 Speaker 1: care of themselves as possible. We know that there is 716 00:42:47,840 --> 00:42:51,680 Speaker 1: so much stacked against a lot of people in a 717 00:42:51,680 --> 00:42:55,640 Speaker 1: lot of situations right now. UM, so I hope folks 718 00:42:55,640 --> 00:42:58,040 Speaker 1: that are doing well and if you would like to 719 00:42:58,040 --> 00:43:00,400 Speaker 1: write to us about this certainly other episode for a 720 00:43:00,520 --> 00:43:02,719 Speaker 1: history podcast at i heeart radio dot com. And then 721 00:43:02,719 --> 00:43:05,279 Speaker 1: we're all over social media at miss in History and 722 00:43:05,320 --> 00:43:07,480 Speaker 1: that is where you will find our Facebook, Twitter, Counterest 723 00:43:07,520 --> 00:43:10,279 Speaker 1: and Instagram. And you said can subscribe to our show 724 00:43:10,320 --> 00:43:13,280 Speaker 1: on Apple podcast, the I heart radio app, and anywhere 725 00:43:13,400 --> 00:43:20,720 Speaker 1: you get your podcasts. Stuff you missed in History Class 726 00:43:20,760 --> 00:43:23,839 Speaker 1: is a production of I heart Radio. For more podcasts 727 00:43:23,840 --> 00:43:27,399 Speaker 1: from I heart Radio, visit the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, 728 00:43:27,520 --> 00:43:29,520 Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.