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Speaker 1: Also media. I'm going to tell you about three American

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Speaker 1: ring masters. The first is the guy you think of

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Speaker 1: when you think of ring masters. If you think of

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Speaker 1: ring masters, think of a ring master, you're probably thinking

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Speaker 1: of P. T. Barnum, or as many people call him,

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Speaker 1: who was Hugh Jackman supposed to be in the Greatest

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Speaker 1: Showman P T.

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Speaker 2: Barnum at your service fee by putting together a show

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Speaker 2: policies and I need a star every one of us.

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Speaker 3: Especial and nobody is like any one us.

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Speaker 1: Well, he's supposed to be P. T. Barnum. And sorry,

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Speaker 1: I hadn't seen this movie, but it's so fucking bad,

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Speaker 1: Like it's worse than my favorite bad biopic twenty fourteen's Jobs,

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Speaker 1: starring Ashton Kutcher as one Steve Jobs.

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Speaker 4: What are you gonna you get to fire me?

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Speaker 5: No?

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Speaker 6: I already fired.

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Speaker 1: You A perfect impression. That's Steve alright.

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Speaker 7: But P. T.

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Speaker 1: Barnum was, in fact a famous American promoter and circusman,

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Speaker 1: presented in this twenty seventeen Disney movie as an awesome

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Speaker 1: guy who empowered other people by displaying them in a

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Speaker 1: freak show for personal profit. Truly wild that they tried it.

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Speaker 1: It's a totally dishonest hero narrative and it made half

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Speaker 1: a billion dollars and P. T. Barnum would have loved that.

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Speaker 1: He was a fucking liar. So who was the real Barnum?

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Speaker 1: He was the guy who started his career as a

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Speaker 1: displayer of quote unquote human curiosities by purchasing and displaying

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Speaker 1: a disabled, enslaved woman named Joyce Heath, who he lied

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Speaker 1: to indicate was the one hundred and sixty one year

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Speaker 1: old nurse of the long dead George Washington. Slavery wasn't

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Speaker 1: even legal in New York at this time. Barnum had

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Speaker 1: to find a loophole in order to exploit Heath's labor,

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Speaker 1: and when she passed away, he charged civilian's fifty cents

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Speaker 1: to watch a live autun of her corpse. This was

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Speaker 1: a guy who targeted vulnerable families with quote unquote unusual

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Speaker 1: children like Charles Stratton, a child with Dwarfism, and Annie Jones,

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Speaker 1: the baby who had become the Bearded Lady, and there

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Speaker 1: shown in the Greatest Showmen as consenting adult parties, when

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Speaker 1: in reality they were displayed as freaks starting when they

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Speaker 1: were under five years old. Same goes for the underlying

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Speaker 1: racism and xenophobia of displaying children from El Salvador as

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Speaker 1: mysticized as tech twins. The list goes on, Barnum's act

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Speaker 1: was so ablest racist and xenophobic that people in the

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Speaker 1: eighteen hundreds knew it was that. But Barnum himself was

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Speaker 1: a character within the world of this circus. He was

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Speaker 1: always at the center of it, and with the character

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Speaker 1: of Barnum came a necessity to control the narrative of

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Speaker 1: that character. Ringmaster I probably the most successful of the

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Speaker 1: last century. This Ringmaster did not just become a multi

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Speaker 1: millionaire off a tremendously successful, deeply exploited a franchise, but

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Speaker 1: managed to make himself a character within that world more

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Speaker 1: successfully than Barnum ever. Did somebody call my mom?

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Speaker 5: I am the Boss?

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Speaker 1: Vincent J. McMahon, like Barnum before him, McMahon wrote himself

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Speaker 1: a character in his own circus, only to be publicly

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Speaker 1: disgraced in the last few years. He is, of course,

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Speaker 1: the extremely successful owner of the WWE, who turned his

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Speaker 1: father's wrestling franchise into an empire that wasn't strictly focused

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Speaker 1: on athletics, but just as much on the personas of

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Speaker 1: the wrestlers themselves. Professional wrestling is soap operas that straight

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Speaker 1: men are allowed to cry at right, and the characters

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Speaker 1: that McMahon built reflect a lot of the same prejudices

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Speaker 1: that we were seeing in Barnum's Act one hundred years earlier.

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Speaker 1: It's a short road to finding racism, sexism, and xenophobia

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Speaker 1: in the way these characters are presented. Here is Vince

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Speaker 1: McMahon in character talking to a character named Saboo.

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Speaker 3: We'll be damned. I thought I was in Texas. Hell,

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Speaker 3: I'm not in Texas. I'm an a Danastan.

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Speaker 6: Hey, boys, check it out.

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Speaker 8: Here's a member of the Taliban.

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Speaker 2: All wait a minute, I know you. You're the guy Saboo.

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Speaker 1: This is just a random example, but you name a

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Speaker 1: racial or ethnic group and the WWE has created a

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Speaker 1: character to offend them, either to appeal to American jingoism

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Speaker 1: or to make people hate the character mister McMahon, who

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Speaker 1: is supposed to be evil. This is a constant distinction

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Speaker 1: made by Vince McMahon, the actual McMahon. It's the character

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Speaker 1: who's evil. The man himself is a tough but fair

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Speaker 1: businessman who could be brutal, but ultimately is a hard

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Speaker 1: working American success story. McMahon takes advantage of this narrative

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Speaker 1: loophole all the time. It makes it easier to distance

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Speaker 1: himself from actual allegations of abuse behind the scenes. And

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Speaker 1: because McMahon had more of a chokehold on the wrestling

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Speaker 1: industry as the years went on, there's this feeling of

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Speaker 1: Stockholm syndrome that haunts his legacy talent, like, well, he

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Speaker 1: had no choice but to be evil. This is from

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Speaker 1: the recent Netflix docuseries Mister McMahons to Who, And the

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Speaker 1: timing of this docuseries is pretty interesting on Netflix's part

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Speaker 1: because they have an upcoming partnership with the WWE with

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Speaker 1: plans to broadcast their weekly raw events starting next January.

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Speaker 1: So there's this both siziness to the Netflix strategy, the

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Speaker 1: feeling of let's call out and dismantle the ring master

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Speaker 1: for decades of unsavory behavior before beginning to broadcast his products.

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Speaker 1: It's a pattern I've been noticing on that platform a

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Speaker 1: lot recently. Another example is that Netflix recently broadcast a

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Speaker 1: pretty broadly inaccurate Ryan Murphy mini series about the Menendez

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Speaker 1: Brothers that drew a lot of criticism only to broadcast

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Speaker 1: a new documentary from the perspective of the Menendez brothers

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Speaker 1: in real life just a month later. So there's no

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Speaker 1: consistent allyeship on a streamer. It's just asking the question,

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Speaker 1: what will people watch? Okay, we'll broadcast it, but let's

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Speaker 1: return to Vince for now. But McMahon's defense against any

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Speaker 1: of this, against a full blown sex trafficking scandal, against rape,

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Speaker 1: against racism, against protective and shielding abusers on his staff

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Speaker 1: is that people are only willing to believe these allegations

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Speaker 1: because he plays a bad guy on TV.

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Speaker 2: A lot of people have confused through the years. Now

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Speaker 2: who my charter was on television and who I am?

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Speaker 2: He used to bug the hell out of me. I'm

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Speaker 2: not that guy, They're realized. Doesn't matter what you want froms.

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Speaker 2: It doesn't matter how you want to be perceived. It's

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Speaker 2: the way you are being perceived. Your perception is reality.

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Speaker 1: And this worked for nearly half a century, but in

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Speaker 1: a social media driven world where conversations around abuse and

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Speaker 1: discrimination have now become more normalized, McMahon is a great

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Speaker 1: example of how the ring master doesn't quite play in

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Speaker 1: today's culture, and knowing the allegations against him and how

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Speaker 1: he talks about it in this docuseries. Once you're accused of.

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Speaker 2: Rape, you're a rapist, but it was consensual and actually

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Speaker 2: had it been a rape, the statue limitations everyone out

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Speaker 2: fucking good.

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Speaker 1: Ring Master three. George Shay wasn't planning on getting into PR.

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Speaker 1: He wanted to be a writer, but being a writer

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Speaker 1: is not particularly profitable, and George Shay wanted money. And

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Speaker 1: when you want to write and make money, the lessons

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Speaker 1: of Barnum and McMahon would come in Handy. Just start

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Speaker 1: a big show that crosses reality with real life and

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Speaker 1: don't really worry about the collateral damage. That's the ring

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Speaker 1: master way. And Shay was mentored by one of the best,

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Speaker 1: a guy named Morty Mattz, the now one hundred year

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Speaker 1: old PR mogul, who is a massive New York advertising pioneer,

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Speaker 1: including Ah. The point is emerging then Nathan's famous hot

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Speaker 1: dog eating contest. Yes, it's a hot dog episode, and

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Speaker 1: it's George Shay who is the indus suitable ring master

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Speaker 1: of the professional hot dog eating world, at least at

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Speaker 1: the time of this recording. Because Morti Mattz came up

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Speaker 1: with the Nathan's Famous hot Dog eating contest in the

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Speaker 1: early nineteen seventies, coming in hot with the lie that

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Speaker 1: this contest had been going on on the fourth of

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Speaker 1: July every year since the nineteen tens, which is not true.

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Speaker 1: The Nathan's contest was then what it is now an

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Speaker 1: advertisement for Nathan's famous hot dogs, and while the hot

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Speaker 1: dog eating contest was a fun thing known locally in

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Speaker 1: the seventies into the late eighties, it wasn't anywhere near

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Speaker 1: the phenomenon it is now. In the early nineteen nineties,

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Speaker 1: Mattz offloads the contest onto George Shay entirely, and Shay

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Speaker 1: takes it extremely seriously. And what I think the contest

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Speaker 1: does most successfully in these early years is further cement

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Speaker 1: the iconography of the hot dog, the phallic tube meet

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Speaker 1: with American patriotism. And that becomes very important here, because

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Speaker 1: once he's brought into the fold in the nineteen nineties,

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Speaker 1: George Shay casts himself as the MC in his Ringmaster

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Speaker 1: character at every event. In nineteen ninety seven, George and

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Speaker 1: his brother Richard Shay founded Major League Eating, a professional

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Speaker 1: organization that formalized eating as an American sport. And because

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Speaker 1: they controlled the Nathan's Contest essentially gave the brothers a

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Speaker 1: media monopoly for pro eaters in the US, and the

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Speaker 1: contest grows in popularity and jingoism as the years go on.

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Speaker 1: Shay finds a character for himself that's somewhere between Barnum

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Speaker 1: and McMahon, not afraid to antagonize on stage competitors or

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Speaker 1: encourage rivalries, but also being overtly worshipful of his champions

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Speaker 1: in a way that McMahon would never dream of. And

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Speaker 1: while George has distanced himself from the pro wrestling comparisons,

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Speaker 1: he has overt connections to the WWE. His wife worked

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Speaker 1: there as well as for some American soap operas. And

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Speaker 1: so while it sounds unhinged that this would be how

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Speaker 1: we're introducing hot dog eaters, I need you to listen

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Speaker 1: to how George Shay brings out his champions. Here's how

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Speaker 1: he brought out Joey Chestnut in twenty fourteen, And you've

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Speaker 1: got to hand it to him.

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Speaker 9: Only moments from her womb, and before she even placed

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Speaker 9: him to.

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Speaker 8: Her breast, his mother held him close.

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Speaker 5: And whispered in his ear.

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Speaker 6: She said, you are of my flesh, but you are

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Speaker 6: not mine own fate is your father, and you belong

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Speaker 6: to the people.

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Speaker 1: Oh no, and I've always of the far of July,

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Speaker 1: of the Nation of the Free Zak.

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Speaker 4: The seven time Nathan's.

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Speaker 10: Famous champion of the Workous ladies and gentlemen love me here,

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Speaker 10: my Jeyada.

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Speaker 1: Oh he is dude. Like it or not, It's effective

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Speaker 1: and I like it. It makes sense in context once

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Speaker 1: you understand a little bit more about the showmanship that

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Speaker 1: comes with professional wrestling, and it's very entertaining. And after

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Speaker 1: George takes over, Americans generally win the Nathan's Contest through

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Speaker 1: the early to mid nineties with what are now considered

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Speaker 1: to be amateur hot dog numbers nineteen twenty one pathetic.

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Speaker 1: But starting in nineteen ninety seven, something interesting happens. Japanese

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Speaker 1: competitor Hirofumi Nakajima wins, a twenty two year old one

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Speaker 1: hundred and thirty five pound competitor who stood in stark

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Speaker 1: contrast to the huskier American competitors. And it's here when

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Speaker 1: an international element is introduced in what's been marketed as

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Speaker 1: the Ultimate American Contest, where the George Shay character really

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Speaker 1: finds his voice.

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Speaker 5: See a lot of what I say is not literally

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Speaker 5: true in terms of words, but it's emotionally true.

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Speaker 1: His angle, like mcmahonon Barnum, a lot of xenophobia, and

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Speaker 1: this only escalates as Japanese competitors continue to flock to

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Speaker 1: the Nathan's Contest into the new millennium. In Japan, televised

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Speaker 1: professional eating was already very much a thing, and Shay,

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Speaker 1: by his own account, both encouraged Japanese competitors to come

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Speaker 1: to the US to compete and was xenophobic in the

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Speaker 1: promotions leading up to it to stoke more American audience reaction.

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Speaker 1: This is from Nicole Lucas Hayms's twenty nineteen thirty for

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Speaker 1: thirty called the Good, the Bad, the Hungry.

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Speaker 5: Everything was a self fulfilling prophecy. If we said, you know,

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Speaker 5: there was a championship belt that was lost in Japan,

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Speaker 5: there was right. If we said that we had a

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Speaker 5: rivalry with the Japanese, we did. If we said there

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Speaker 5: was a circuit of events, there was right, and everything

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Speaker 5: sort of just came true.

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Speaker 1: But there was no Japanese competitor, no competitor globally. That

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Speaker 1: made a bigger first impression on the Nathan's Contest than

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Speaker 1: to Kiaro Kobyashi in two thousand and one. He was

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Speaker 1: completely unknown to American audiences, but he was already a

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Speaker 1: hugely successful eater and personality in Japan, and when he

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Speaker 1: came to the Nathan's Contest, Kobe quite literally doubled the

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Speaker 1: hot dog eating record of two thousand contest winner Kazutoyo Ara.

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Speaker 1: He ate fifty hot dogs in twelve minutes. It had

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Speaker 1: never been done before, and while George Shay had been

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Speaker 1: able to poke at his xenophobia angle while Americans were

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Speaker 1: nipping at Japanese competitor's heels, Kobe changed the game entirely,

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Speaker 1: and he won the Nathan's Contest back to back for

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Speaker 1: six years. And so Ring Master Shay spots an opportunity,

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Speaker 1: one that feeds into the nationalism the contest is marketed on,

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Speaker 1: and he sets out to find an American competitor to

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Speaker 1: pit against kobea but none materialized right away, and in

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Speaker 1: the meantime, Kobe became popular on American TV for his

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Speaker 1: braggadocious persona and technique, really legitimizing eating as a strategic

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Speaker 1: sport and not as she had positioned it in the past.

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Speaker 1: As a sinful American gorging session, to which I say,

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Speaker 1: why not both? Right? Anyways, here's Kobayashi competing against a

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Speaker 1: bear on Spike TV in the mid two thousands.

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Speaker 4: And now introducing to my right his opponent, the Beast.

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Speaker 4: He descends from Kodiak Island, Alaska. Fully erect. This beast

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Speaker 4: stands over eight feet tall and weighs in tonight at

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Speaker 4: one thousand and eighty nine pounds.

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Speaker 11: There we go down.

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Speaker 1: Kobyashi must know that's it, this is going on, and

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Speaker 1: that is it.

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Speaker 3: We have aware.

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Speaker 12: He is aware.

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Speaker 1: The Beast has one. When I tell you he was popular,

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Speaker 1: I mean Spike TV. What a moment in time. And

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Speaker 1: keep in mind Kobe is becoming famous alongside a huge

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Speaker 1: reality television boom in the US, one that Major League

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Speaker 1: Eating was eager to ride the wave of ESPN began

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Speaker 1: broadcasting the contest in two thousand and four, at the

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Speaker 1: same time that major reality franchises like Survivor, American Idol,

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Speaker 1: The Apprentice, The Biggest Loser, The Amazing Race, and on

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Speaker 1: and on and on. We're doing blockbuster runs and averaging

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Speaker 1: millions upon millions of viewers. Throughout the two thousands, the

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Speaker 1: Chaise tried to ingratiate the mL and by extension, the

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Speaker 1: success of Kobayashi into this reality TV environment, producing specials

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Speaker 1: like the Saint Patrick's Stage Chowdown and the Turkey Bowl.

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Speaker 1: This Kobe versus Bear moment was a part of a

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Speaker 1: Fox reality show called Man Versus Beast in two thousand

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Speaker 1: and three, and by the way, legend has it that

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Speaker 1: Kobe won during the dress rehearsal. No doubt that EML

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Speaker 1: breaking into the mainstream was very well timed, because there

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Speaker 1: was this huge interest in reality TV in the two

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Speaker 1: thousands that only increased with events like the two thousand

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Speaker 1: and seven Writers' strike hitting the scripted space with setbacks.

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Speaker 1: And who happened to be watching Kobe v. Behar but

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Speaker 1: the American competitor that George Shay had been waiting for

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Speaker 1: one Joseph Chestnut. Also, his middle name is Christian, which

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Speaker 1: makes me laugh. Joseph Christian Chestnut. Here he is in

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Speaker 1: the thirty for thirty.

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Speaker 11: It was so much easier for me to motivate myself

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Speaker 11: when I thought Kobyashi was purely the enemy in my nemesis.

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Speaker 1: The ring master had found the rivalry that matched his vision,

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Speaker 1: and now it was possible to position Kobayashi as the

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Speaker 1: outsider and Joey as the scrappy American champion. And it's

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Speaker 1: Shay who oversaw and actively fostered a hot dog feud

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Speaker 1: that lives rent free in my mind until this day.

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Speaker 1: The great view of Kobayashi Versus Chestnut, a narrative engineered

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Speaker 1: by a character right on stage with them, a true

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Speaker 1: American ringmaster, the grand narrative of Kobayashi Versus Chestnut. Your

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Speaker 1: sixteenth Minute starts now Joy Service sixteen sixteen. Welcome back

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Speaker 1: to sixteenth Minute, the podcast where we take a look

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Speaker 1: at the Internet's characters of the day and see how

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Speaker 1: their moment affected them and what that says about the

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Speaker 1: Internet and us. And this week we are talking about

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Speaker 1: my fucking Wheelhouse competitive hot dog eating. Yes, this is

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Speaker 1: the second episode of sixteenth Minute about hot dogs. I

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Speaker 1: don't know what to tell you. This is my life,

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Speaker 1: this is my passion, and they're not going to let

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Speaker 1: me write a second book about it, no matter how

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Speaker 1: many times I ask. And in case you're new here,

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Speaker 1: I did actually write the first book about it. It's

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Speaker 1: called Raw Dog The Naked Truth about hot Dogs, and

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Speaker 1: you can buy it wherever books are sold. But today

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Speaker 1: we're going to be going over the famed rivalry of

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Speaker 1: two the men who tend to become the main character

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Speaker 1: on the fourth of July every calendar year, current hot

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Speaker 1: Dog Eating Champion of the World Joey Chestnut and former

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Speaker 1: hot dog Eating Champion of the World Takio Kobayashi. But

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Speaker 1: unlike other episodes of this show, I'm not looking to

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Speaker 1: talk to them, but the people who have shaped their story.

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Speaker 1: If you're a fan of the contest, even casually, you

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Speaker 1: know about this feud. It's been going on for nearly

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Speaker 1: twenty years, and Kobayashi's professional eating career in both Japan

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Speaker 1: and the States goes back even longer. But even if

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Speaker 1: you're not a hot dog fan, you might have heard

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Speaker 1: recently that these rivals went head to head live on

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Speaker 1: Netflix this past Labor Day on September second, twenty twenty

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Speaker 1: four in Las Vegas, and it was a big deal,

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Speaker 1: not only because it had been nearly fifteen years since

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Speaker 1: the two had competed and Kobayashi had all but left

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Speaker 1: the sport in the US, but because for a long

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Speaker 1: time they would have been contractually barred from doing a rematch.

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Speaker 1: This is because of how the contracts for Major League

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Speaker 1: Eating were run. Joey was largely barred from participating in

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Speaker 1: eating events that had not been approved by the organization

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Speaker 1: in advance, and as Kobayashi was no longer a member

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Speaker 1: of Major League Eating. More on that in a bit,

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Speaker 1: this meant a rematch wouldn't be possible. But this past summer,

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Speaker 1: Joey's contract with the MLEE was discontinued. We'll get into why,

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Speaker 1: but essentially because he wanted to pursue business opportunities that

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Speaker 1: conflicted with Major League Eatings. Joey took a contract with

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Speaker 1: Impossible Foods, a vegan brand and competitor of Nathan's famous,

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Speaker 1: meaning that unless he dropped the deal, MLEE would drop him.

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Speaker 1: Joey chose Impossible, and all of a sudden, the mL

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Speaker 1: was out of the picture and left a clean path

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Speaker 1: for the two rivals to finally rematch. And yes, of

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Speaker 1: course I was there. We're going to release a minisode

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Speaker 1: about what the Internet's reaction and interaction with it was

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Speaker 1: like this Thursday. But today we're gonna look at how

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Speaker 1: this story evolved over twenty years, both online and in media,

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Speaker 1: to yield a sports rivalry that McMahon or Barnum themselves

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Speaker 1: would kill for. This is something I've been thinking about

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Speaker 1: a lot recently, which you can probably tell from my

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Speaker 1: bizarre over preparation to try to better understand P. T.

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Speaker 1: Barnum and Vince McMahon before getting to George Shay and

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Speaker 1: before anyone sues me. They're all litigious. I'm not saying

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Speaker 1: they are all the same guy, but they're cut from

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Speaker 1: the same cloth, right. They're businessmen, they're hyper visible, and

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Speaker 1: they're crafters of narrative that the general public can engage

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Speaker 1: with as if it's true, or engage with as if

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Speaker 1: it's fiction and still enjoy the product. But the product

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Speaker 1: is other people. And as I thought about this, I

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Speaker 1: felt like this same explanation could apply to a lot

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Speaker 1: of contemporary social media. Well, there's plenty of discourses and

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Speaker 1: harassment campaigns led by modern ring masters your Ben Shapiro's,

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Speaker 1: your Peers, Morgan'ses, all the way down to the drama

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Speaker 1: YouTubers who pay their bills speculating about other niche celebrities

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Speaker 1: without really talking to anyone except Google AI. These days,

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Speaker 1: the ring master is you guessed, it may be the

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Speaker 1: algorithmth Internet algorithms, as we've discussed many, many times on

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Speaker 1: this show, have become increasingly forceful drivers of who becomes

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Speaker 1: a character of the day in the last ten to

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Speaker 1: fifteen years, not just on our social media platforms, but

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Speaker 1: on streaming platforms like Netflix, which broadcasted this rematch between

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Speaker 1: Joey and Kobe. So Yes, the rematch, titled Unfinished Beef

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Speaker 1: Pretty Good, did allow for both Kobayashi and Chestnut more

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Speaker 1: ostensible narrative controls than the way that they were presented

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Speaker 1: by George Shay back in the day. But I don't

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Speaker 1: think that there's a lack of a ring master here.

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Speaker 1: At the Vegas event in September, while the thrill of

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Speaker 1: the competition was the same, the vibe was different. The

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Speaker 1: space that George Shay's voice would usually fill was replaced

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Speaker 1: with corporate synergy. So what does that difference look like? Well,

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Speaker 1: to understand, we'll have to return to what the rivalry

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Speaker 1: looked like under the steady control of a ring master

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Speaker 1: to say for sure. So come with me if you

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Speaker 1: will to the fourth of July two thousand and one,

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Speaker 1: and just to reiterate, the majority of interview clips with Kobayashi,

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Speaker 1: Chestnut and Shay are coming from today's guest, Nicole Lucas

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Speaker 1: Haim's twenty nineteen documentary The Good, The Bad, the Hungry.

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Speaker 1: As we discussed, Kobe came to the States to compete

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Speaker 1: in the Nathans Contest in two thousand and one, less

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Speaker 1: than three months after the release.

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Speaker 13: Of Shrek Somebody and two months before nine to eleven,

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Speaker 13: a fragile time, and while Kobe was not the first

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Speaker 13: Japanese champion to take the contest by storm, he was

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Speaker 13: in fact the third in a short amount of time.

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Speaker 1: He was by far the best competitor they'd ever seen.

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Speaker 1: For context, the person who won the two thousand contest

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Speaker 1: was victorious by three and an eighth hot dog, and

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Speaker 1: Kobe won in two thousand and one by nineteen hot dogs.

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Speaker 1: He could not be denied, and he was initially celebrated

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Speaker 1: by the crowd.

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Speaker 14: A little kid is incredible for total beating of the Americans.

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Speaker 5: He was like a convey a belt. He was just

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Speaker 5: putting them in two at a time.

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Speaker 1: But this wouldn't last. While xenophobic and often just boldly racist,

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Speaker 1: it's not super surprising that a hyper American broadcast would

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Speaker 1: be eager to turn on a Japanese competitor. You don't

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Speaker 1: need me to tell you that relations between the US

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Speaker 1: and Japan in the last one hundred years have not

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Speaker 1: been great. If that's how we want to briefly summarize

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Speaker 1: Americans dropping two atomic bombs onto Japanese cities in nineteen

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Speaker 1: forty five and the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor in

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Speaker 1: the US back in nineteen forty one. How is Pearl

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Speaker 1: Harbor coming up in my Hot Dog episode? It's far

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Speaker 1: too complicated a dynamic to recap in detail here, but

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Speaker 1: suffice it to say American media was no stranger to

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Speaker 1: irrationally villainizing Japanese people, and doing so appealed to some

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Speaker 1: inherent and lasting prejudice within a lot of Americans. And

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Speaker 1: Kobe wasn't the only Asian competitor to be taking the

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Speaker 1: eating seed by storm. Longtime women's champion Sonya Thomas is

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Speaker 1: a South Korean born American eater who was a longtime

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Speaker 1: head to head competitor with Chestnut and Kobayashi, only to

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Speaker 1: be sidelined in twenty eleven when George Shay decided to

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Speaker 1: separate the contest by binary gender, announcing at the time.

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Speaker 8: I don't know that the thinking was parochial.

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Speaker 1: It was more imbrasive. You can read my book Broad

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Speaker 1: Dog for more on that. Gender discrimination and professional eating

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Speaker 1: is a whole other story. I have to stop myself.

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Speaker 1: In The Good, The Bad, the Hungry, filmmaker Nicole Lucas

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Speaker 1: Haymes does a terrific job of illustrating the cultural differences

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Speaker 1: between Joey and Kobe, mainly by interviewing their families. Joey

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Speaker 1: was raised in a southern California middle class household with

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Speaker 1: the American notion that food was comfort and commune, and

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Speaker 1: Kobe was raised in Japan by a father who didn't

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Speaker 1: approve of consuming food to access. As Kobe's father tells it,

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Speaker 1: he really only grew to fully understand and support his

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Speaker 1: son's career when he saw the level of care and

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Speaker 1: passion that Kobe had for it. There's also an inherent

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Speaker 1: difference in Joey and Kobe's approach to competition as a concept.

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Speaker 1: Kobe mentions towards the end of the documentary that he

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Speaker 1: was raised with the notion that a competitor is to

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Speaker 1: be respected and honored, while Joey's American mentality was more

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Speaker 1: like this.

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Speaker 11: He can't just be that much better. There's a lot

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Speaker 11: of nice road where I can't quite to sleep because

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Speaker 11: I'm thinking about, well, why why can that Japanese man

431
00:28:07,680 --> 00:28:09,080
Speaker 11: eat so much more than everybody else?

432
00:28:10,040 --> 00:28:13,240
Speaker 1: Add this to the frequent language barrier dissonance, and you

433
00:28:13,280 --> 00:28:17,560
Speaker 1: get a narrative that's very malleable for George Shay, something

434
00:28:17,560 --> 00:28:19,919
Speaker 1: that he certainly made Hay of at the peak of

435
00:28:19,960 --> 00:28:23,480
Speaker 1: the rivalry. Joey and Kobe both admit that having such

436
00:28:23,520 --> 00:28:28,080
Speaker 1: an intense competitor was deeply motivating, and Kobe's margin of

437
00:28:28,160 --> 00:28:31,280
Speaker 1: victory grew slimmer, not just in hot dog victories but

438
00:28:31,359 --> 00:28:35,920
Speaker 1: across mL events throughout the mid two thousands. Joey finished

439
00:28:35,960 --> 00:28:39,320
Speaker 1: third behind Sonya Thomas in two thousand and five nineteen

440
00:28:39,360 --> 00:28:42,760
Speaker 1: hot dogs behind Kobe, only to surge ahead to losing

441
00:28:42,800 --> 00:28:46,600
Speaker 1: by barely two hot dogs. Just the next year. He

442
00:28:46,720 --> 00:28:49,680
Speaker 1: was nipping at Kobe's heels, and George Shay was not

443
00:28:49,800 --> 00:28:52,680
Speaker 1: afraid to point it out, although at this time, to

444
00:28:52,720 --> 00:28:56,600
Speaker 1: his credit, Shay does continue to give Kobe the worshipful

445
00:28:56,720 --> 00:28:59,720
Speaker 1: intros that he's known for. Here's one of them.

446
00:29:00,120 --> 00:29:02,800
Speaker 5: The rules of the universe do not apply in the

447
00:29:02,800 --> 00:29:05,800
Speaker 5: one hundred and forty four pounds that comprise Takiaro Kobiyanshi.

448
00:29:07,960 --> 00:29:09,080
Speaker 1: He is an.

449
00:29:09,040 --> 00:29:15,360
Speaker 5: Alchemist who has transformed athletics into mathematics, mathematics into poetry,

450
00:29:16,360 --> 00:29:17,640
Speaker 5: and poetry into history.

451
00:29:19,440 --> 00:29:22,600
Speaker 1: I mean, it's just really good. But by two thousand

452
00:29:22,640 --> 00:29:26,000
Speaker 1: and seven, as Joey continued to nip at his heels,

453
00:29:26,120 --> 00:29:29,840
Speaker 1: Kobe hit an emotional wall after losing his mother to cancer.

454
00:29:30,560 --> 00:29:33,320
Speaker 1: He originally stated that he would not be competing in

455
00:29:33,360 --> 00:29:37,040
Speaker 1: the Nathan's Contest that year, but later reversed this decision,

456
00:29:37,560 --> 00:29:40,160
Speaker 1: only to be beset by a jaw injury that George

457
00:29:40,160 --> 00:29:44,920
Speaker 1: Shay referred to as jaw thritis. And while Kobe says

458
00:29:44,920 --> 00:29:48,320
Speaker 1: to this day that this injury was genuinely sustained while

459
00:29:48,320 --> 00:29:51,880
Speaker 1: training and yeah, that makes total sense when your job

460
00:29:51,960 --> 00:29:55,920
Speaker 1: is shoveling food into your mouth, the attitude of Joey

461
00:29:55,960 --> 00:30:00,320
Speaker 1: and George at the time was, yeah, you're bullshitting man.

462
00:30:00,360 --> 00:30:03,720
Speaker 1: You're just afraid that Joey's gonna beat you, which, by

463
00:30:03,760 --> 00:30:07,920
Speaker 1: the time the documentary came out read as pretty insensitive.

464
00:30:09,040 --> 00:30:13,000
Speaker 1: But in two thousand and seven, Joey Chesnutt did beat Kobayashi,

465
00:30:13,480 --> 00:30:16,760
Speaker 1: taking him down by three hot Dogs sixty six to

466
00:30:16,880 --> 00:30:20,680
Speaker 1: sixty three. Kobe made headlines that year for eating his

467
00:30:20,800 --> 00:30:23,560
Speaker 1: own vomit in the final seconds of the contest, which

468
00:30:24,320 --> 00:30:28,000
Speaker 1: is don't look that clip up. And while the racial

469
00:30:28,080 --> 00:30:33,000
Speaker 1: and xenophobic invocations toward Kobe certainly existed before two thousand

470
00:30:33,000 --> 00:30:36,479
Speaker 1: and seven, there is a clear shift that takes place

471
00:30:36,920 --> 00:30:41,040
Speaker 1: once he loses to an American. This is moments after

472
00:30:41,200 --> 00:30:44,640
Speaker 1: Joey Chestnut's first win. We have our confidence back.

473
00:30:45,240 --> 00:30:48,960
Speaker 6: The top days of the last six years are behind us.

474
00:30:49,560 --> 00:30:53,120
Speaker 1: And of course Kobayashi notices this shift too and is

475
00:30:53,200 --> 00:30:56,240
Speaker 1: deeply freaked out and hurt by it. He says in

476
00:30:56,280 --> 00:30:58,160
Speaker 1: the documentary Coodo.

477
00:31:00,280 --> 00:31:03,720
Speaker 8: I could feel the crowd becoming aggressive Tourny now god

478
00:31:04,480 --> 00:31:06,800
Speaker 8: the most fast. I started to feel threatened that they

479
00:31:06,880 --> 00:31:11,040
Speaker 8: might do something when I got off the stage, and

480
00:31:11,080 --> 00:31:13,800
Speaker 8: we'll kind of up there. I didn't understand American culture quata,

481
00:31:13,960 --> 00:31:14,720
Speaker 8: so it scared me.

482
00:31:15,280 --> 00:31:18,320
Speaker 1: And to be clear, Joey certainly is not innocent in

483
00:31:18,360 --> 00:31:21,520
Speaker 1: all of this. Once he wins, he gets cocky and

484
00:31:21,720 --> 00:31:25,360
Speaker 1: antagonistic towards Kobe. But based on the footage that is

485
00:31:25,400 --> 00:31:28,400
Speaker 1: included in Hams Is thirty for thirty, it's clear that

486
00:31:28,480 --> 00:31:31,720
Speaker 1: George Shay is coaching both competitors to give answers to

487
00:31:31,760 --> 00:31:36,360
Speaker 1: camera that will create the best promos closer to professional

488
00:31:36,400 --> 00:31:40,280
Speaker 1: wrestlers than typical athletes, and in a clip that makes

489
00:31:40,480 --> 00:31:44,960
Speaker 1: my blood boil, we hear George Shay play the character

490
00:31:45,240 --> 00:31:49,560
Speaker 1: of George Shay describing the moment Kobe lost, then breaking

491
00:31:49,680 --> 00:31:52,520
Speaker 1: character when the take is finished to reveal how he

492
00:31:52,600 --> 00:31:54,040
Speaker 1: actually feels about it.

493
00:31:54,640 --> 00:31:57,560
Speaker 5: After that event, I went back to my room and

494
00:31:57,600 --> 00:32:02,240
Speaker 5: I wept. I silently. He wept because something was lost.

495
00:32:02,680 --> 00:32:03,160
Speaker 5: I wept.

496
00:32:09,840 --> 00:32:12,320
Speaker 1: And I really don't mean this with too much disrespect,

497
00:32:12,440 --> 00:32:15,960
Speaker 1: because it's fine for some events to be fucking goofy, right.

498
00:32:16,320 --> 00:32:19,200
Speaker 1: The problem was that the poking fund from the Shay

499
00:32:19,320 --> 00:32:23,120
Speaker 1: side often seemed to be at their own champion's expense.

500
00:32:23,720 --> 00:32:27,040
Speaker 1: Because I can attest in the twenty twenty four Netflix broadcast,

501
00:32:27,080 --> 00:32:32,240
Speaker 1: reflects that both Kobe and Joey take eating very, very seriously.

502
00:32:32,520 --> 00:32:35,080
Speaker 1: It is in no way a joke to them, just

503
00:32:35,120 --> 00:32:38,080
Speaker 1: in case there was any doubt. Once he begins losing,

504
00:32:38,360 --> 00:32:42,720
Speaker 1: things get complicated in the negotiation of Kobe's contract within

505
00:32:42,760 --> 00:32:46,160
Speaker 1: the mL Kobe wants to be able to compete in

506
00:32:46,200 --> 00:32:49,440
Speaker 1: his home country and not require approval from the Shay

507
00:32:49,480 --> 00:32:53,840
Speaker 1: Brothers to do anything, but the mL says no, and

508
00:32:53,880 --> 00:32:57,120
Speaker 1: if Kobe didn't agree to the terms of his restrictive contract,

509
00:32:57,600 --> 00:33:00,120
Speaker 1: he wouldn't be welcomed back on the Nathan stage to

510
00:33:00,160 --> 00:33:03,040
Speaker 1: try and reclaim his title from Joey. So by the

511
00:33:03,120 --> 00:33:05,680
Speaker 1: late two thousands, Kobe is put between a rock and

512
00:33:05,720 --> 00:33:09,680
Speaker 1: a hard place. Either he leaves opportunities and money that

513
00:33:09,760 --> 00:33:12,840
Speaker 1: he'd worked for for years on the table, or he

514
00:33:12,880 --> 00:33:15,840
Speaker 1: plays ball and continues to compete in the hot Dog

515
00:33:15,880 --> 00:33:19,720
Speaker 1: contest for the next few years. Kobe tries to make

516
00:33:19,760 --> 00:33:23,520
Speaker 1: this work as the chestnut rivalry seems to calcify into

517
00:33:24,000 --> 00:33:29,120
Speaker 1: actual intense animosity between the two men after Kobe lost

518
00:33:29,160 --> 00:33:32,520
Speaker 1: for a second time in an improvised overtime segment following

519
00:33:32,520 --> 00:33:35,320
Speaker 1: a tie in two thousand and eight. By two thousand

520
00:33:35,320 --> 00:33:38,360
Speaker 1: and nine, you see Joey and Kobe sitting beside each

521
00:33:38,400 --> 00:33:42,440
Speaker 1: other with their arms folded, refusing to speak. And keep

522
00:33:42,440 --> 00:33:46,120
Speaker 1: in mind, this is as social media is just starting

523
00:33:46,240 --> 00:33:50,000
Speaker 1: to take shape and Internet culture is taking off, so

524
00:33:50,040 --> 00:33:53,120
Speaker 1: there's not yet a platform where you can properly live tweet,

525
00:33:53,240 --> 00:33:56,280
Speaker 1: or start a full blown vendetta against a hot dog rival.

526
00:33:56,760 --> 00:33:59,120
Speaker 1: It would have even been hard to watch the contest

527
00:33:59,200 --> 00:34:03,000
Speaker 1: at the time. ESPN didn't start broadcasting the event until

528
00:34:03,000 --> 00:34:06,080
Speaker 1: two thousand and four, and that change had a lot

529
00:34:06,120 --> 00:34:10,560
Speaker 1: to do with the hype around Kobayashi and anecdotally based

530
00:34:10,600 --> 00:34:13,640
Speaker 1: on people in the competitive eating environment I've talked with,

531
00:34:14,160 --> 00:34:17,680
Speaker 1: they genuinely fucking hated each other and while they didn't

532
00:34:17,760 --> 00:34:20,319
Speaker 1: know it. In two thousand and nine, this would be

533
00:34:20,440 --> 00:34:23,560
Speaker 1: the last time that the two appeared on the Nathan

534
00:34:23,600 --> 00:34:28,080
Speaker 1: stage together, and Joey wins again, beating Kobe by a

535
00:34:28,120 --> 00:34:31,200
Speaker 1: four hot dog margin. And as the years go on

536
00:34:31,520 --> 00:34:35,040
Speaker 1: and Joey wins more and more, Kobe is no longer

537
00:34:35,080 --> 00:34:38,160
Speaker 1: being cheered by American audiences like he was at the

538
00:34:38,239 --> 00:34:41,919
Speaker 1: beginning of the decade. He's being booed in a way

539
00:34:41,920 --> 00:34:45,399
Speaker 1: that I can't help feel. Echoes the way xenophobic WWE

540
00:34:45,480 --> 00:34:48,759
Speaker 1: villains were brought on then and now the way you

541
00:34:48,800 --> 00:34:51,480
Speaker 1: hear the iron Chic was summoned to the ring at

542
00:34:51,480 --> 00:34:53,200
Speaker 1: the peak of his heeled them.

543
00:34:53,480 --> 00:34:56,520
Speaker 10: Thank you very much, Jan Min and tell Jean Amarican

544
00:34:57,000 --> 00:35:01,560
Speaker 10: and Teli jan Maamasiti all a maricha resting city people

545
00:35:01,640 --> 00:35:05,480
Speaker 10: lot you always tells the hit or come to the Mayama.

546
00:35:06,200 --> 00:35:10,480
Speaker 1: The difference is Kobayashi is not playing a character in

547
00:35:10,520 --> 00:35:14,080
Speaker 1: the way that WWE performers are. He's not playing an

548
00:35:14,080 --> 00:35:18,200
Speaker 1: exaggerated cultural stereotype in a soap opera for boys. He's

549
00:35:18,239 --> 00:35:22,120
Speaker 1: just trying to be himself and compete. In the documentary,

550
00:35:22,400 --> 00:35:26,279
Speaker 1: Joey recalls this feeling of extreme jingoism as well.

551
00:35:26,520 --> 00:35:29,440
Speaker 11: America on the fourth of July. I think when Major

552
00:35:29,520 --> 00:35:31,320
Speaker 11: le Gating made the headline of the contest of America

553
00:35:31,400 --> 00:35:36,200
Speaker 11: versus Chapare, it hurt Kobyashi. It made him an enemy.

554
00:35:36,239 --> 00:35:38,719
Speaker 1: It might not surprise you to hear that George Shay

555
00:35:38,840 --> 00:35:41,000
Speaker 1: does not like the way that he comes off in

556
00:35:41,040 --> 00:35:43,400
Speaker 1: this thirty for thirty. Nicole and I talk about it

557
00:35:43,440 --> 00:35:46,400
Speaker 1: in our interview, But that makes sense because he can't

558
00:35:46,400 --> 00:35:48,080
Speaker 1: stop saying things like this.

559
00:35:48,960 --> 00:35:53,480
Speaker 5: I have always used pro American rhetoric, and the belt

560
00:35:53,680 --> 00:35:57,400
Speaker 5: is a national prize from the day the Belt was made.

561
00:35:57,600 --> 00:35:59,800
Speaker 5: You think I want Kobyashi to win six years in

562
00:35:59,800 --> 00:36:03,239
Speaker 5: a row necessarily like if he wins, he wins, But

563
00:36:03,280 --> 00:36:06,279
Speaker 5: that's not great for the narrative. The issue is, as

564
00:36:06,360 --> 00:36:09,920
Speaker 5: someone who's competing this from an international basis, you have

565
00:36:10,000 --> 00:36:13,480
Speaker 5: to understand that there's an American hero, and you can

566
00:36:13,520 --> 00:36:15,920
Speaker 5: be a hero in the same exact way, but you

567
00:36:15,960 --> 00:36:18,560
Speaker 5: can't be an American hero because you were an American.

568
00:36:20,480 --> 00:36:25,040
Speaker 1: So presenting this ringmaster mentality as a funny and cool

569
00:36:25,080 --> 00:36:29,240
Speaker 1: thing while clearly not considering the pain that uplifting Joey

570
00:36:29,360 --> 00:36:32,839
Speaker 1: was causing Kobe Yashi, who and I'm not entertaining other

571
00:36:32,880 --> 00:36:37,319
Speaker 1: opinions on this, did make the Nathan's contest popular on

572
00:36:37,400 --> 00:36:42,840
Speaker 1: a national scale single handedly. Without Kobe, there is no

573
00:36:43,040 --> 00:36:47,160
Speaker 1: Joey Chestnut period, and to not just feel discarded but

574
00:36:47,360 --> 00:36:51,800
Speaker 1: actively hated in the US after losing really affected Kobe.

575
00:36:52,400 --> 00:36:54,080
Speaker 1: He says in the thirty for thirty.

576
00:36:54,360 --> 00:36:58,279
Speaker 8: Little Nathan st I was walking on the streets in

577
00:36:58,360 --> 00:37:05,760
Speaker 8: New York. Makit passer by USA.

578
00:37:06,080 --> 00:37:08,520
Speaker 1: Let's see that was hurt for.

579
00:37:11,719 --> 00:37:17,160
Speaker 8: I felt unwelcomed. I was shocked.

580
00:37:20,520 --> 00:37:21,359
Speaker 1: I used to cheer for.

581
00:37:21,360 --> 00:37:23,440
Speaker 8: Me, didn't think kik and I started to feel I

582
00:37:23,520 --> 00:37:25,280
Speaker 8: wasn't welcomed in America anymore.

583
00:37:26,440 --> 00:37:30,640
Speaker 1: Twenty ten is the last Straw, now deeply disillusioned with

584
00:37:30,680 --> 00:37:35,480
Speaker 1: the mL and to some extent, America in general. Contract

585
00:37:35,560 --> 00:37:39,640
Speaker 1: negotiations with Kobayashi fall apart for the final time, and

586
00:37:39,680 --> 00:37:43,440
Speaker 1: he's barred from competing in the contest for good. But

587
00:37:44,280 --> 00:37:47,560
Speaker 1: Kobe is a showman himself and always has been, and

588
00:37:47,640 --> 00:37:51,120
Speaker 1: in protest shows up to the twenty ten contest in

589
00:37:51,160 --> 00:37:56,160
Speaker 1: an iconic black T shirt with green text reading free Kobe.

590
00:37:56,840 --> 00:38:00,000
Speaker 1: And while accounts differ here as to why this happened,

591
00:38:00,000 --> 00:38:03,560
Speaker 1: and Kobe hopped on stage during the contest to continue

592
00:38:03,600 --> 00:38:07,760
Speaker 1: this protest, and here it's the final turn of the screw.

593
00:38:08,640 --> 00:38:11,479
Speaker 1: Instead of engaging with the one time hot Dog hero,

594
00:38:12,200 --> 00:38:17,359
Speaker 1: the mL sends security to arrest Kobe and there's a

595
00:38:17,360 --> 00:38:20,719
Speaker 1: physical struggle to get him off the stage. I still

596
00:38:20,719 --> 00:38:23,600
Speaker 1: can't kind of believe this happened. It's very cruel and

597
00:38:23,680 --> 00:38:24,880
Speaker 1: uncomfortable to watch.

598
00:38:25,480 --> 00:38:30,000
Speaker 15: Six time winner Tekaru Tsunami Kobayashi was detained by police

599
00:38:30,040 --> 00:38:33,120
Speaker 15: after storming the stage at the annual contest following a

600
00:38:33,160 --> 00:38:38,239
Speaker 15: contractual dispute with organizers, and while Jaws relished his win,

601
00:38:38,360 --> 00:38:41,680
Speaker 15: Kobayashi was charged with trespassing and resisting arrest.

602
00:38:42,440 --> 00:38:46,959
Speaker 1: And of course, the contest goes on and Joey wins again.

603
00:38:47,840 --> 00:38:50,759
Speaker 1: And while there's plenty of fascinating hot dog drama, you

604
00:38:50,800 --> 00:38:52,960
Speaker 1: can read a certain someone's book to learn more about

605
00:38:53,600 --> 00:38:56,759
Speaker 1: the rivalry between Joey and Kobe falls off here for

606
00:38:56,880 --> 00:39:01,200
Speaker 1: nearly fifteen years. Chestnut loses one to Matt Stoney in

607
00:39:01,320 --> 00:39:04,520
Speaker 1: twenty fifteen, but outside of that has now won the

608
00:39:04,560 --> 00:39:08,600
Speaker 1: contest sixteen times and by the time I saw him

609
00:39:08,600 --> 00:39:12,080
Speaker 1: compete on the Nathan stage in twenty twenty three, because yes,

610
00:39:12,120 --> 00:39:14,200
Speaker 1: I go every year and I refuse to be embarrassed

611
00:39:14,200 --> 00:39:19,640
Speaker 1: by it, Joey's only competitor is Joey. To his credit,

612
00:39:19,840 --> 00:39:22,960
Speaker 1: in the last five years, Joey has appeared to reflect

613
00:39:23,320 --> 00:39:26,319
Speaker 1: on this time in this rivalry a bit and has

614
00:39:26,400 --> 00:39:30,600
Speaker 1: expressed regret at engaging with this xenophobic narrative as thoroughly

615
00:39:30,680 --> 00:39:34,680
Speaker 1: as he did. But for Kobe this was too little,

616
00:39:34,719 --> 00:39:38,280
Speaker 1: too late. The Shay Brothers invited him back, but Kobe

617
00:39:38,320 --> 00:39:43,000
Speaker 1: never accepted an invitation from the MLE again. In the meantime,

618
00:39:43,280 --> 00:39:47,120
Speaker 1: Kobe and his manager slash wife Maggie James lived between

619
00:39:47,200 --> 00:39:50,440
Speaker 1: Japan and the US, and Kobe did continue to eat

620
00:39:50,480 --> 00:39:55,000
Speaker 1: and compete professionally, just not in the mL which still

621
00:39:55,040 --> 00:39:59,080
Speaker 1: held a stranglehold on competition in the US. By the

622
00:39:59,080 --> 00:40:02,320
Speaker 1: time Haines's thirty for thirty came out, the two hadn't

623
00:40:02,320 --> 00:40:06,040
Speaker 1: competed against each other in nearly a decade, and said

624
00:40:06,080 --> 00:40:09,360
Speaker 1: they wanted to record their segments separately so they wouldn't

625
00:40:09,400 --> 00:40:13,040
Speaker 1: have to spend time together. And it's here that George

626
00:40:13,040 --> 00:40:16,799
Speaker 1: Shay's narrative power over to Kia Kobe Yashi in particular,

627
00:40:17,400 --> 00:40:20,280
Speaker 1: comes to an end. I think this moment from Kobe,

628
00:40:20,320 --> 00:40:22,880
Speaker 1: and the doc explains this most succinctly.

629
00:40:25,040 --> 00:40:29,440
Speaker 8: Amide As a Japanese, I wondered why Americans could not

630
00:40:29,560 --> 00:40:33,960
Speaker 8: express themselves more constructive. I mean, in Japanese culture, we

631
00:40:34,080 --> 00:40:39,600
Speaker 8: don't blue competitors, but it is not necessary to boo

632
00:40:39,640 --> 00:40:43,920
Speaker 8: an opponent. Felni, But now I understand nice.

633
00:40:45,360 --> 00:40:45,640
Speaker 2: Email.

634
00:40:46,840 --> 00:40:50,759
Speaker 8: I see negative campaigns happening in American politics, that's the

635
00:40:50,880 --> 00:40:55,160
Speaker 8: American way. You know, America now know that's not part

636
00:40:55,200 --> 00:40:55,680
Speaker 8: of the cult.

637
00:40:59,080 --> 00:41:02,280
Speaker 1: And even though it's seed unlikely to happen in twenty nineteen,

638
00:41:02,920 --> 00:41:06,920
Speaker 1: it stayed Nicole Lucas Haymes's dream and if rumors are

639
00:41:06,960 --> 00:41:10,560
Speaker 1: to be believed, Joey's dream to one day hold a

640
00:41:10,640 --> 00:41:13,400
Speaker 1: rematch between the two. But as long as Joey was

641
00:41:13,480 --> 00:41:16,800
Speaker 1: with the mL, that was never going to happen. Until

642
00:41:17,360 --> 00:41:20,360
Speaker 1: summer twenty twenty four, when Joey was released from his

643
00:41:20,520 --> 00:41:23,960
Speaker 1: MLEE contract and barred from the Nathan's Contest in a

644
00:41:24,040 --> 00:41:27,920
Speaker 1: way that was stunningly similar to how Kobe Yashi was

645
00:41:28,080 --> 00:41:31,880
Speaker 1: back in the day. He wanted to pursue more lucrative opportunities,

646
00:41:32,760 --> 00:41:36,239
Speaker 1: and honestly, as I'm sure Joey knows, Joey was a

647
00:41:36,280 --> 00:41:39,560
Speaker 1: bigger draw than the Nathan's Contest itself at that point,

648
00:41:40,400 --> 00:41:43,960
Speaker 1: and so a decade and a half later, Joey and

649
00:41:44,080 --> 00:41:48,520
Speaker 1: Kobe got to introduce themselves on the Netflix broadcast, tweak

650
00:41:48,560 --> 00:41:50,279
Speaker 1: the rules of the contest to a place that was

651
00:41:50,360 --> 00:41:54,280
Speaker 1: mutually agreeable, and have a final fight to the finish.

652
00:41:55,280 --> 00:41:57,920
Speaker 1: But are they really in control of their own narratives

653
00:41:58,000 --> 00:42:02,920
Speaker 1: now or are we creating this new, more opaque ringmaster.

654
00:42:04,200 --> 00:42:06,520
Speaker 1: When we come back, I talk with the director of

655
00:42:06,640 --> 00:42:10,640
Speaker 1: The Good, The Bad, The Hungry and the executive producer

656
00:42:10,760 --> 00:42:30,160
Speaker 1: of Unfinished Beef on Netflix, Nicole Lucas Hayms. Welcome back

657
00:42:30,200 --> 00:42:32,680
Speaker 1: to sixteenth Minute. My name is Jamie Loftus, and of

658
00:42:32,800 --> 00:42:34,839
Speaker 1: course I took all the notes for the episode you're

659
00:42:34,880 --> 00:42:38,120
Speaker 1: listening to in a fuzzy pink notebook that says welcome

660
00:42:38,200 --> 00:42:41,239
Speaker 1: to Fabulous Las Vegas, What do you take me for?

661
00:42:42,200 --> 00:42:45,920
Speaker 1: And this week we're revisiting the narrative saga that surrounded

662
00:42:45,960 --> 00:42:51,000
Speaker 1: to Karo Kobayashi and Joey Chestnuts very recently concluded Rivalry.

663
00:42:51,640 --> 00:42:53,440
Speaker 1: And there's no one I'd rather speak to about this

664
00:42:53,880 --> 00:42:57,560
Speaker 1: than Nicole Lucas Hayms, director of the now very sighted

665
00:42:57,760 --> 00:43:01,120
Speaker 1: twenty nineteen thirty for thirty doc us mentory The Good,

666
00:43:01,360 --> 00:43:04,080
Speaker 1: the Bad, the Hungry. It's a piece that was really

667
00:43:04,280 --> 00:43:07,160
Speaker 1: influential on me while I was working on Raw Dog

668
00:43:07,640 --> 00:43:12,080
Speaker 1: and clearly on the mL and Professional Hot Dog Eating Itself.

669
00:43:12,800 --> 00:43:15,600
Speaker 1: As we discussed in our interview, George Shay was said

670
00:43:15,600 --> 00:43:18,840
Speaker 1: to be unhappy with his portrayal in the documentary, and

671
00:43:19,040 --> 00:43:23,040
Speaker 1: after it's released, you can see a clear pullback from

672
00:43:23,120 --> 00:43:27,400
Speaker 1: the broad nationalist narratives that used to define the contest

673
00:43:28,120 --> 00:43:31,719
Speaker 1: in the twenty twenties. Shay has absolutely changed tack a

674
00:43:31,760 --> 00:43:35,680
Speaker 1: little bit. And for the record, I did reach out

675
00:43:35,760 --> 00:43:38,480
Speaker 1: to George Shay to do an interview for this episode

676
00:43:38,960 --> 00:43:41,759
Speaker 1: and I didn't hear back, which honestly does not surprise me.

677
00:43:42,040 --> 00:43:43,880
Speaker 1: If you've read my book, I'm very critical of him

678
00:43:44,520 --> 00:43:48,040
Speaker 1: and I probably wouldn't have answered my email either. So,

679
00:43:48,120 --> 00:43:51,640
Speaker 1: without further ado, here is my interview with the lovely

680
00:43:52,120 --> 00:43:53,240
Speaker 1: Nicole Lucas Hayms.

681
00:43:54,080 --> 00:43:56,759
Speaker 12: My name is Nicole Lucas Haymes and I am a

682
00:43:56,840 --> 00:43:57,880
Speaker 12: documentary filmmaker.

683
00:43:58,120 --> 00:44:01,040
Speaker 1: This is like a dream interview. Now, over the course

684
00:44:01,080 --> 00:44:05,960
Speaker 1: of half a decade, been telling stories about professional eaters

685
00:44:06,080 --> 00:44:09,680
Speaker 1: and specifically these two professional eaters. What was it like

686
00:44:10,000 --> 00:44:13,719
Speaker 1: returning to this rivalry years later?

687
00:44:14,440 --> 00:44:18,799
Speaker 12: So it's rare that has a long form journalist one

688
00:44:18,920 --> 00:44:22,719
Speaker 12: has a chance to return to his stories so many

689
00:44:22,800 --> 00:44:27,279
Speaker 12: years later. It was very interesting to me personally to

690
00:44:27,560 --> 00:44:32,040
Speaker 12: see the changes that had happened in the ensuing years.

691
00:44:32,239 --> 00:44:36,640
Speaker 12: There are personal changes from between Joey and Kobe. Joey

692
00:44:37,719 --> 00:44:42,040
Speaker 12: really wanted to be the champion and worked very very

693
00:44:42,160 --> 00:44:42,680
Speaker 12: hard for it.

694
00:44:42,920 --> 00:44:43,400
Speaker 3: So when we.

695
00:44:43,680 --> 00:44:50,200
Speaker 12: Filmed, which was twenty eighteen, it was relatively newer for him,

696
00:44:50,680 --> 00:44:56,239
Speaker 12: so his legacy wasn't as cemented as it was in

697
00:44:56,640 --> 00:45:00,719
Speaker 12: twenty twenty four, and then changed in the course of

698
00:45:01,320 --> 00:45:03,320
Speaker 12: our production when.

699
00:45:03,480 --> 00:45:08,200
Speaker 3: Joey then oh and by the way, do you still

700
00:45:08,239 --> 00:45:09,080
Speaker 3: have a crush on him?

701
00:45:09,120 --> 00:45:13,120
Speaker 1: And I have since met him and he was aware

702
00:45:13,120 --> 00:45:14,160
Speaker 1: of it as herself.

703
00:45:14,680 --> 00:45:18,360
Speaker 7: But yeah, yeah, so Joey was more of a hothead,

704
00:45:18,440 --> 00:45:20,919
Speaker 7: and I think he would read it that and made

705
00:45:21,000 --> 00:45:27,279
Speaker 7: some temperate remarks about Kobyashi and I've really found a

706
00:45:27,440 --> 00:45:27,959
Speaker 7: much more.

707
00:45:27,960 --> 00:45:32,120
Speaker 12: Mature individual six years later that in a short period

708
00:45:32,160 --> 00:45:36,000
Speaker 12: of time he grew quite a bit. I think is

709
00:45:36,239 --> 00:45:40,400
Speaker 12: striving to take a more elder statesman role, in addition

710
00:45:40,560 --> 00:45:43,000
Speaker 12: to of course wanting to beat the pants out of

711
00:45:43,080 --> 00:45:45,120
Speaker 12: Kobe and prove that he's the goat.

712
00:45:45,480 --> 00:45:47,560
Speaker 3: Kobe as she went through a really.

713
00:45:48,200 --> 00:45:53,640
Speaker 12: Interesting change that I wasn't really aware of because Kobe

714
00:45:53,719 --> 00:45:58,399
Speaker 12: doesn't speak English very well, and so when we were

715
00:45:58,480 --> 00:46:02,680
Speaker 12: talking long distance planning what became unfinished beef. This wasn't

716
00:46:02,719 --> 00:46:06,480
Speaker 12: communicated to me until I really went to interview him,

717
00:46:06,640 --> 00:46:09,600
Speaker 12: which was my second trip to Japan on this matter,

718
00:46:09,880 --> 00:46:14,560
Speaker 12: and what I learned was that he had been very depressed.

719
00:46:14,680 --> 00:46:19,439
Speaker 12: He had not competed during the pandemic, so he had

720
00:46:19,920 --> 00:46:25,080
Speaker 12: been to see a monk who he solicited help from,

721
00:46:25,840 --> 00:46:26,520
Speaker 12: who we met.

722
00:46:26,719 --> 00:46:29,520
Speaker 3: I love this guy. That material ended up not making

723
00:46:29,600 --> 00:46:30,040
Speaker 3: it into the.

724
00:46:30,080 --> 00:46:35,360
Speaker 12: Broadcast satellite and bit by bit worked very hard to

725
00:46:35,760 --> 00:46:41,160
Speaker 12: get over his depression because he was a competitor who

726
00:46:41,320 --> 00:46:46,320
Speaker 12: wasn't competing. He needed it to have his life make sense.

727
00:46:47,040 --> 00:46:49,640
Speaker 12: Joey had made some comment in the press about wanting

728
00:46:49,680 --> 00:46:52,080
Speaker 12: to take on Kobe, and I had a bit of

729
00:46:52,120 --> 00:46:58,279
Speaker 12: an aha moment, going, well, there's probably no one in

730
00:46:58,400 --> 00:47:01,160
Speaker 12: the world who could do this except maybe me and

731
00:47:01,320 --> 00:47:03,719
Speaker 12: maybe one or two other people, but yeah.

732
00:47:04,280 --> 00:47:05,640
Speaker 3: Mostly probably me.

733
00:47:06,760 --> 00:47:10,520
Speaker 12: So I reached out to Kobe via Maggie had asked

734
00:47:10,600 --> 00:47:13,839
Speaker 12: if they were interested, and Kobe said yes, as long

735
00:47:13,920 --> 00:47:18,160
Speaker 12: as they could compete by rules that Kobe felt were fair.

736
00:47:18,480 --> 00:47:23,719
Speaker 12: So when Kobe knew that this contest was afoot and

737
00:47:24,280 --> 00:47:28,160
Speaker 12: it was potentially possible, I think it helped him bit

738
00:47:28,239 --> 00:47:29,480
Speaker 12: by bit come out.

739
00:47:29,320 --> 00:47:30,239
Speaker 3: Of the depression.

740
00:47:30,640 --> 00:47:36,160
Speaker 12: He was way more I think tender back in twenty

741
00:47:36,280 --> 00:47:39,719
Speaker 12: eighteen when we were making the movie, because I don't

742
00:47:39,760 --> 00:47:42,919
Speaker 12: think he had ever had an opportunity to fully tell

743
00:47:43,000 --> 00:47:47,200
Speaker 12: his story. There was a lot of pain underneath it.

744
00:47:47,920 --> 00:47:50,959
Speaker 3: This time, while we were interviewing him, we had.

745
00:47:50,840 --> 00:47:53,080
Speaker 12: A bit of an AHA moment and said, I'm not

746
00:47:53,280 --> 00:47:56,560
Speaker 12: crying and all of this this is in Joey's head.

747
00:48:00,200 --> 00:48:03,320
Speaker 12: It was really kind of great to see that he

748
00:48:03,600 --> 00:48:06,320
Speaker 12: had recovered from a dark knight of the soul and

749
00:48:06,760 --> 00:48:07,959
Speaker 12: did so successfully.

750
00:48:08,080 --> 00:48:11,400
Speaker 3: I think to show up for this battle was fantastic.

751
00:48:12,000 --> 00:48:15,600
Speaker 1: It felt as if Joey and Kobe were more able

752
00:48:15,760 --> 00:48:21,880
Speaker 1: to curate how they presented themselves versus in the Nathan's contest,

753
00:48:22,000 --> 00:48:25,759
Speaker 1: were more common for someone to be presented to you.

754
00:48:26,239 --> 00:48:27,480
Speaker 3: I think that's true.

755
00:48:28,440 --> 00:48:32,400
Speaker 12: While I was the driving force, other people were hired

756
00:48:32,800 --> 00:48:35,600
Speaker 12: to really execute the vision of the show. So the

757
00:48:35,719 --> 00:48:40,120
Speaker 12: production company was den of thieves. And I would say

758
00:48:40,239 --> 00:48:44,000
Speaker 12: it was fascinating to me to watch the care that

759
00:48:44,960 --> 00:48:50,279
Speaker 12: they exhibited in helping Kobe and Joey have this be

760
00:48:50,440 --> 00:48:53,120
Speaker 12: their event too. And of course I was part of it,

761
00:48:53,400 --> 00:48:56,160
Speaker 12: but I'm a voice, but I'm not the driving force

762
00:48:56,520 --> 00:48:59,799
Speaker 12: in making that broadcast passing.

763
00:48:59,520 --> 00:49:00,160
Speaker 1: Of the on.

764
00:49:00,400 --> 00:49:04,359
Speaker 12: There was a lot of discussion from their relatives, from

765
00:49:04,560 --> 00:49:09,520
Speaker 12: each of their respective camps. We made the thirty for thirty,

766
00:49:10,040 --> 00:49:15,840
Speaker 12: We try to get them together for a rematch with ESPN,

767
00:49:16,640 --> 00:49:19,840
Speaker 12: and they would have nothing to do with it. Jenna

768
00:49:19,880 --> 00:49:24,840
Speaker 12: Anthony commissioned The Good, The Bad, The Hungary thirty for

769
00:49:25,000 --> 00:49:29,799
Speaker 12: thirty and she moved over to Netflix, and I knew

770
00:49:30,080 --> 00:49:35,439
Speaker 12: that Jenna would be interested really quite an instrumental role

771
00:49:36,200 --> 00:49:38,240
Speaker 12: in both of these hot Dog stories.

772
00:49:38,560 --> 00:49:42,560
Speaker 1: They grew and changes people. How did their attitude towards

773
00:49:42,600 --> 00:49:43,640
Speaker 1: one another change?

774
00:49:44,000 --> 00:49:45,400
Speaker 3: Kobe's so careful about.

775
00:49:46,320 --> 00:49:50,600
Speaker 12: Culturally in Japan, it seemed to me, from what I

776
00:49:50,680 --> 00:49:54,280
Speaker 12: can understand really as an outsider, that there's a culture

777
00:49:54,360 --> 00:49:58,800
Speaker 12: of honoring one's opponent, so it's very rare when anyone

778
00:49:58,880 --> 00:50:01,720
Speaker 12: would publicly bad mouth an opponent.

779
00:50:02,239 --> 00:50:06,000
Speaker 3: Though I understand that true.

780
00:50:07,360 --> 00:50:10,920
Speaker 12: Hard feelings from Kobe's point of view to Joey, and

781
00:50:11,160 --> 00:50:16,640
Speaker 12: in turn Joey to Kobe. I think Joey would love

782
00:50:16,760 --> 00:50:21,040
Speaker 12: nothing more than to continue to compete against Kobeyashi, and

783
00:50:21,200 --> 00:50:25,640
Speaker 12: I really do believe that he is sincere and that

784
00:50:26,360 --> 00:50:31,919
Speaker 12: that is his competitor of his lifetime. So I think

785
00:50:32,160 --> 00:50:38,440
Speaker 12: some of his attempts to be nice are motivated with

786
00:50:38,640 --> 00:50:40,879
Speaker 12: the possibility of a future relationship.

787
00:50:41,000 --> 00:50:43,239
Speaker 3: That's my opinion. Joey hasn't really said that.

788
00:50:43,360 --> 00:50:47,200
Speaker 12: That was my personal takeaway. But I don't really think

789
00:50:47,800 --> 00:50:50,880
Speaker 12: Kobe wants to do this anymore. He's going to retire.

790
00:50:51,120 --> 00:50:53,439
Speaker 12: I mean, look, never say never, but I think he's

791
00:50:53,480 --> 00:50:54,360
Speaker 12: pretty clear that.

792
00:50:54,800 --> 00:50:55,279
Speaker 14: This was it.

793
00:50:55,920 --> 00:50:58,400
Speaker 1: Why was this the narrative that was so effective in

794
00:50:58,480 --> 00:51:01,280
Speaker 1: the first place When you were approaching that and getting

795
00:51:01,360 --> 00:51:04,880
Speaker 1: to know the competitors better, what was sticking out to

796
00:51:04,960 --> 00:51:07,960
Speaker 1: you about what was appearing again? And again in these

797
00:51:08,520 --> 00:51:09,920
Speaker 1: hot dog hero narratives.

798
00:51:10,320 --> 00:51:14,000
Speaker 12: I just recently said this to Jodie Walker and her piece,

799
00:51:14,280 --> 00:51:17,560
Speaker 12: but truly mean this. I think George is a genius.

800
00:51:17,760 --> 00:51:19,200
Speaker 3: He knows how to.

801
00:51:20,840 --> 00:51:24,839
Speaker 12: Juxtapose the high and the low to make good fun.

802
00:51:25,320 --> 00:51:30,960
Speaker 12: And he gets tone and and tone is a really

803
00:51:31,080 --> 00:51:34,000
Speaker 12: hard thing to get right. I mean, when people create

804
00:51:34,200 --> 00:51:39,560
Speaker 12: arts and there's participants in the movies, it's a holding

805
00:51:39,640 --> 00:51:44,799
Speaker 12: a mirror. And I think George saw himself. My guess

806
00:51:44,880 --> 00:51:49,200
Speaker 12: would be by seeing how it changed after the film.

807
00:51:49,760 --> 00:51:54,360
Speaker 12: I think he recognized and maybe he had been unaware

808
00:51:54,440 --> 00:51:58,239
Speaker 12: of what he really had been doing. Like who I mean,

809
00:51:58,320 --> 00:52:02,240
Speaker 12: we end up sometimes making mistake in our own bubbles

810
00:52:02,280 --> 00:52:06,000
Speaker 12: and not even realizing. And so I noticed too that

811
00:52:06,880 --> 00:52:12,520
Speaker 12: the nationalism was scaled back, that this was not anymore

812
00:52:12,760 --> 00:52:16,239
Speaker 12: longer about sort of an American hero, but there is

813
00:52:16,360 --> 00:52:18,239
Speaker 12: still a lot of American trappings.

814
00:52:18,280 --> 00:52:19,480
Speaker 3: I mean, it's July fourth.

815
00:52:20,680 --> 00:52:24,000
Speaker 12: He has pulled off this extraordinary coup of equating hot

816
00:52:24,040 --> 00:52:28,000
Speaker 12: dog eating with patriots as a bund July fourth. Yeah,

817
00:52:28,600 --> 00:52:32,959
Speaker 12: in everyone's mind in the country, it's challenging to dial

818
00:52:33,120 --> 00:52:42,080
Speaker 12: back nationalism on July fourth. Kobe Ashi is also extremely charismatic.

819
00:52:42,320 --> 00:52:43,200
Speaker 1: As it wrought.

820
00:52:43,880 --> 00:52:49,719
Speaker 3: So Kobe had and has great personal style. Loved what

821
00:52:49,920 --> 00:52:52,200
Speaker 3: he did. The world was his oyster.

822
00:52:53,000 --> 00:52:57,320
Speaker 12: He captured the American imagination in an extraordinary way, and

823
00:52:57,440 --> 00:53:02,000
Speaker 12: he broke through the culture in the early ought that

824
00:53:02,160 --> 00:53:03,480
Speaker 12: was phenomenal, and there was no.

825
00:53:03,680 --> 00:53:05,560
Speaker 3: Other character who was doing it.

826
00:53:05,760 --> 00:53:10,400
Speaker 12: I agree with you that without Kobe there would not

827
00:53:10,560 --> 00:53:13,560
Speaker 12: have been a compelling main character.

828
00:53:14,000 --> 00:53:18,640
Speaker 3: I understood that I wanted to explore satiety.

829
00:53:18,560 --> 00:53:22,239
Speaker 12: But I didn't know at the beginning that it would

830
00:53:22,880 --> 00:53:28,440
Speaker 12: become a reflection about America. And that was something that

831
00:53:28,719 --> 00:53:32,200
Speaker 12: we really discovered along the way and really kind of

832
00:53:32,320 --> 00:53:33,280
Speaker 12: deep into editing.

833
00:53:34,000 --> 00:53:38,000
Speaker 1: And we're Joey and Kobe happy with the way their

834
00:53:38,080 --> 00:53:41,440
Speaker 1: stories were presented. I felt like, you're very empathetic and

835
00:53:41,560 --> 00:53:43,319
Speaker 1: respectful towards both contestants.

836
00:53:43,960 --> 00:53:45,160
Speaker 3: I think they felt that.

837
00:53:45,480 --> 00:53:49,520
Speaker 12: I think that they each hid their grapes, which probably

838
00:53:49,680 --> 00:53:53,440
Speaker 12: sure let me know that I was doing okay. Kobe

839
00:53:53,600 --> 00:53:59,320
Speaker 12: wanted more granular information about why he was met at George.

840
00:54:01,200 --> 00:54:04,200
Speaker 12: I think Joey felt a little that the film was

841
00:54:04,960 --> 00:54:09,839
Speaker 12: more about Kobe than him. Besides these complaints, I think

842
00:54:09,920 --> 00:54:13,080
Speaker 12: in general they felt that they were happy with it.

843
00:54:13,239 --> 00:54:14,280
Speaker 3: That they were captured.

844
00:54:14,719 --> 00:54:19,200
Speaker 1: I heard that Shay wasn't thrilled about his portrayal in

845
00:54:19,440 --> 00:54:24,440
Speaker 1: the thirty for thirty And looking at other people of

846
00:54:25,040 --> 00:54:30,160
Speaker 1: George Shay's ilk who are narrative creators, and you know,

847
00:54:30,400 --> 00:54:34,560
Speaker 1: seeing the camera turned towards them, I feel like it

848
00:54:34,640 --> 00:54:39,640
Speaker 1: almost always creates this tension because all of a sudden,

849
00:54:39,760 --> 00:54:42,720
Speaker 1: this narrative that you have had deeply within your control

850
00:54:42,880 --> 00:54:46,759
Speaker 1: for however many decades is being challenged in a way

851
00:54:46,800 --> 00:54:49,000
Speaker 1: that wouldn't have previously been possible.

852
00:54:49,360 --> 00:54:50,120
Speaker 3: That's interesting.

853
00:54:50,239 --> 00:54:50,400
Speaker 1: You know.

854
00:54:50,480 --> 00:54:57,200
Speaker 12: When we started the film, George began doing sort of

855
00:54:57,600 --> 00:55:04,000
Speaker 12: what he did in you know, Spinning, and was presenting

856
00:55:05,880 --> 00:55:11,080
Speaker 12: himself as an entertaining character with sort of the tropes

857
00:55:11,160 --> 00:55:13,719
Speaker 12: that have been in the press before. And I and

858
00:55:13,840 --> 00:55:15,680
Speaker 12: we had to stop, and I said, George, for us

859
00:55:15,800 --> 00:55:18,200
Speaker 12: to make this film, if we're going to make it,

860
00:55:19,360 --> 00:55:22,560
Speaker 12: I need you to be you. We need the real story.

861
00:55:25,200 --> 00:55:29,880
Speaker 12: And he agreed, You're right. He was not happy with

862
00:55:30,080 --> 00:55:35,239
Speaker 12: his portrayal. And I also didn't know where it would

863
00:55:35,360 --> 00:55:40,239
Speaker 12: lead when we began. We went through I don't know

864
00:55:40,480 --> 00:55:44,680
Speaker 12: thousands of hours of footage and really looked and we

865
00:55:44,840 --> 00:55:49,800
Speaker 12: had to assess was Cobe accurate or was he not?

866
00:55:50,239 --> 00:55:53,960
Speaker 12: You know, there was a journalistic piece to it in

867
00:55:54,080 --> 00:55:59,400
Speaker 12: addition to character centered storytelling, and so I think the

868
00:55:59,520 --> 00:56:03,880
Speaker 12: films for itself that it was never it was just

869
00:56:04,000 --> 00:56:08,320
Speaker 12: sort of what we found, you know. He said that

870
00:56:08,760 --> 00:56:11,759
Speaker 12: Joey's I think Joey broke his heart, and I think

871
00:56:11,800 --> 00:56:14,719
Speaker 12: I said, no, I think maybe.

872
00:56:14,520 --> 00:56:15,640
Speaker 3: You broke his heart.

873
00:56:16,320 --> 00:56:21,160
Speaker 12: And that was not a planned I wanted to address it.

874
00:56:21,440 --> 00:56:23,840
Speaker 12: And when he said it, that became a moment for me,

875
00:56:24,160 --> 00:56:28,800
Speaker 12: you know, so he had an opportunity to reflect in

876
00:56:28,960 --> 00:56:32,080
Speaker 12: that moment. I think he said that he wished Kobe

877
00:56:32,200 --> 00:56:36,080
Speaker 12: had come to him. That's a hard thing to ask someone, right,

878
00:56:36,560 --> 00:56:40,320
Speaker 12: who doesn't speak the language, she doesn't really understand the culture,

879
00:56:40,480 --> 00:56:41,560
Speaker 12: who at that point was.

880
00:56:41,680 --> 00:56:44,800
Speaker 1: Mad, who was still kind of functioning as your employee

881
00:56:44,840 --> 00:56:45,920
Speaker 1: at that point too.

882
00:56:46,880 --> 00:56:50,600
Speaker 12: Right at the thirty thousand foot level, right, the nature

883
00:56:50,640 --> 00:56:54,120
Speaker 12: of human relationships is often rupture and repair. We all

884
00:56:54,239 --> 00:56:58,480
Speaker 12: transgress and we all have to apologize and make up

885
00:56:58,520 --> 00:57:02,279
Speaker 12: for things we do. So so it's hard for an employee,

886
00:57:02,800 --> 00:57:06,760
Speaker 12: someone who's a contract employee where you're the primary source

887
00:57:06,840 --> 00:57:09,920
Speaker 12: of income, be able to communicate that, to know how

888
00:57:09,960 --> 00:57:14,040
Speaker 12: to communicate it effectively when you don't speak the language,

889
00:57:14,120 --> 00:57:19,600
Speaker 12: and I think that Kobe did not fully understand the

890
00:57:19,840 --> 00:57:25,400
Speaker 12: nuance of George's language, so that if you read the words,

891
00:57:25,880 --> 00:57:29,720
Speaker 12: or you have the words translated, he's an alchemist, or

892
00:57:29,840 --> 00:57:35,520
Speaker 12: he's a poet, He's this all of like those extraordinary things. Suddenly,

893
00:57:36,400 --> 00:57:40,840
Speaker 12: if you don't know the language and understand the nuance,

894
00:57:41,640 --> 00:57:45,200
Speaker 12: you have one idea of who you are, and George

895
00:57:45,280 --> 00:57:49,680
Speaker 12: really had another idea of who Kobyashi was. And I

896
00:57:49,800 --> 00:57:56,680
Speaker 12: don't think Kobe understood until the very end, ten years later,

897
00:57:57,240 --> 00:58:01,480
Speaker 12: that George did not take this year as a sport

898
00:58:01,800 --> 00:58:05,800
Speaker 12: and even his language wasn't was that superlative.

899
00:58:06,320 --> 00:58:10,280
Speaker 3: I could be wrong. I don't think he fully grasped that.

900
00:58:10,480 --> 00:58:12,760
Speaker 3: I think not to say that he was duped.

901
00:58:12,920 --> 00:58:17,320
Speaker 12: I just think that coming from a culture so different

902
00:58:17,400 --> 00:58:21,800
Speaker 12: than ours, I don't think he could get the nuance,

903
00:58:22,120 --> 00:58:24,520
Speaker 12: especially as a non English speaker.

904
00:58:24,800 --> 00:58:27,120
Speaker 1: It also makes sense why Joey was so appealing, because

905
00:58:27,280 --> 00:58:29,400
Speaker 1: Joey takes it super seriously.

906
00:58:29,000 --> 00:58:32,920
Speaker 3: Too, Like right, they both took it super seriously.

907
00:58:33,680 --> 00:58:36,600
Speaker 12: And I think Colbe understood that there was an element

908
00:58:36,680 --> 00:58:39,480
Speaker 12: of fun and that people find fun.

909
00:58:39,640 --> 00:58:41,480
Speaker 3: And I mean, he's not a dope.

910
00:58:41,560 --> 00:58:43,919
Speaker 1: He's eating against a bear like that whole.

911
00:58:44,160 --> 00:58:44,960
Speaker 3: Yeah, he's a.

912
00:58:45,240 --> 00:58:49,960
Speaker 12: Very very smart He's a smart guy, So it's not

913
00:58:50,080 --> 00:58:52,280
Speaker 12: a question of intellect. It was a question of I

914
00:58:52,360 --> 00:58:57,480
Speaker 12: think of sophistication and attunement to American culture. And I

915
00:58:57,560 --> 00:59:01,320
Speaker 12: think that's why the hurt was so bad too. When

916
00:59:01,480 --> 00:59:06,439
Speaker 12: the xenophobic remarks started to come. I think it came

917
00:59:06,480 --> 00:59:09,320
Speaker 12: out of the blue for him, like, why would anybody

918
00:59:09,800 --> 00:59:13,680
Speaker 12: say anything mean to a guy who eats hot talks.

919
00:59:13,880 --> 00:59:19,160
Speaker 1: Which is a very fair question when George Shay was

920
00:59:19,200 --> 00:59:23,120
Speaker 1: making those kinds of comments, and how permissible xenophobia was

921
00:59:23,280 --> 00:59:27,919
Speaker 1: in the US in the two thousands, Let's just say,

922
00:59:28,080 --> 00:59:30,280
Speaker 1: I guess it was like a particular kind of tone

923
00:59:30,320 --> 00:59:30,520
Speaker 1: to it.

924
00:59:30,920 --> 00:59:35,800
Speaker 12: It had a particular tone, Yes, absolutely, like Post nine

925
00:59:35,800 --> 00:59:38,840
Speaker 12: to eleven. It had a particular time. But I don't

926
00:59:38,880 --> 00:59:41,920
Speaker 12: think our xenophobic nature has changed. I mean, look at

927
00:59:42,000 --> 00:59:46,440
Speaker 12: the what's being said about the border. It's insane. Xenophobia

928
00:59:46,880 --> 00:59:52,160
Speaker 12: absolutely continuing, and it has changed, it's probably.

929
00:59:51,880 --> 00:59:56,800
Speaker 1: Worse based on the years of reporting, of interviewing, of

930
00:59:56,960 --> 00:59:58,440
Speaker 1: making media around this sport.

931
01:00:00,000 --> 01:00:01,240
Speaker 3: What is this a reflection of?

932
01:00:01,760 --> 01:00:04,479
Speaker 12: I can tell you this that I think that deep,

933
01:00:04,560 --> 01:00:07,400
Speaker 12: deep that I don't know if it's an American narrative

934
01:00:07,440 --> 01:00:09,920
Speaker 12: as much as it is a human narrative in the

935
01:00:10,080 --> 01:00:16,520
Speaker 12: sense that every single culture has very strict mores around food,

936
01:00:16,760 --> 01:00:20,600
Speaker 12: and you realize that there's a real joy in breaking

937
01:00:21,000 --> 01:00:25,000
Speaker 12: all the rules around food, and there was a real

938
01:00:25,280 --> 01:00:29,800
Speaker 12: joy about breaking rules around human capacity. We look at

939
01:00:30,000 --> 01:00:34,160
Speaker 12: great athletes and we're in awe and there's something on

940
01:00:34,320 --> 01:00:39,200
Speaker 12: inspired about how much these guys can eat, and also

941
01:00:39,720 --> 01:00:43,720
Speaker 12: the real pleasure of the rule breaking. I think there's

942
01:00:43,800 --> 01:00:48,080
Speaker 12: something so naughty about it at its core. So I

943
01:00:48,480 --> 01:00:55,080
Speaker 12: think that's part of the passion of hot dogs more so,

944
01:00:55,360 --> 01:01:00,120
Speaker 12: I think than sort of the Americana identification, and I

945
01:01:00,200 --> 01:01:03,840
Speaker 12: think that's an overlay, but I think it's audiness. Every

946
01:01:03,880 --> 01:01:08,640
Speaker 12: culture also has food competitions, yeah, form or another, So

947
01:01:09,240 --> 01:01:10,520
Speaker 12: I don't know that's what I think.

948
01:01:11,680 --> 01:01:15,760
Speaker 1: Thank you so much to Nicole Go stream thirty for thirty,

949
01:01:16,000 --> 01:01:21,080
Speaker 1: The good, the bad, the hungry right fucking now. When

950
01:01:21,120 --> 01:01:24,720
Speaker 1: it comes to the Netflix special surrounding Chestnut and Kobayashi,

951
01:01:25,360 --> 01:01:28,000
Speaker 1: I have to admit, while it was thrilling to see

952
01:01:28,040 --> 01:01:31,800
Speaker 1: the two matched up again after so long and genuinely

953
01:01:31,920 --> 01:01:36,920
Speaker 1: devastating boiler alert, to watch Kobe Louse as his decades

954
01:01:37,000 --> 01:01:41,440
Speaker 1: long supporters looked on, there was this feeling of corporatism

955
01:01:41,720 --> 01:01:45,760
Speaker 1: where sensationalism used to be. The hosts of the event,

956
01:01:46,240 --> 01:01:49,680
Speaker 1: Rob Wriggle and Nikki Bella read the teleprompter and spoke

957
01:01:49,760 --> 01:01:53,760
Speaker 1: to the viewers and their presence folk to clearly defined

958
01:01:53,840 --> 01:01:58,520
Speaker 1: Netflix audiences, Briggle to their conservative fans and possibly some

959
01:01:58,640 --> 01:02:03,560
Speaker 1: comedy nerds. Nicki Bella to the WWE contingency that they

960
01:02:03,640 --> 01:02:07,240
Speaker 1: were trying to court. It was an event unto itself

961
01:02:07,760 --> 01:02:11,760
Speaker 1: and an ad for something else, the algorithm reminding you

962
01:02:11,920 --> 01:02:16,360
Speaker 1: to come back soon, because remember, Netflix has a plan here,

963
01:02:17,280 --> 01:02:21,360
Speaker 1: just as they released the Vince McMahon Takedown docuseries just

964
01:02:21,440 --> 01:02:26,080
Speaker 1: a couple months before starting to broadcast WWE RAW. They're

965
01:02:26,200 --> 01:02:30,520
Speaker 1: connecting the dots with the creative overlap between professional eating

966
01:02:31,000 --> 01:02:35,680
Speaker 1: and professional wrestling and using the broadcast to promote their

967
01:02:35,760 --> 01:02:40,640
Speaker 1: own product. That's why we have WWE star Nicki Bella

968
01:02:40,760 --> 01:02:44,520
Speaker 1: co hosting the event. That's why there are appearances from

969
01:02:44,600 --> 01:02:48,800
Speaker 1: wrestler Ray Mysterio and he presents Joey with the championship belt.

970
01:02:49,320 --> 01:02:53,480
Speaker 1: That's why they're broadcasting Jake Paul versus Mike Tyson on

971
01:02:53,600 --> 01:02:58,840
Speaker 1: their platform. In November, even though their Vince McMahon docuseries

972
01:02:59,240 --> 01:03:03,520
Speaker 1: criticizes McMahon for platforming Mike Tyson shortly after he was

973
01:03:03,560 --> 01:03:07,640
Speaker 1: found guilty of raping a teenager in the nineties. Netflix

974
01:03:08,080 --> 01:03:11,200
Speaker 1: is no better, but in a broader sense outside of

975
01:03:11,240 --> 01:03:15,880
Speaker 1: the WWE. It's why Netflix is both sidesing the fucking

976
01:03:16,280 --> 01:03:20,600
Speaker 1: Menendez Brothers. It's a strategy one that doesn't require a

977
01:03:20,720 --> 01:03:23,920
Speaker 1: visible ring master taking sides. It's a way to take

978
01:03:24,120 --> 01:03:27,960
Speaker 1: any side that a viewer will pay to engage with.

979
01:03:28,760 --> 01:03:32,200
Speaker 1: There are no values to an algorithm, even when the

980
01:03:32,280 --> 01:03:36,480
Speaker 1: creatives and producers, and particularly Joey and Kobe are very,

981
01:03:36,680 --> 01:03:40,120
Speaker 1: very passionate and smart about what they're doing. This isn't

982
01:03:40,120 --> 01:03:43,560
Speaker 1: a criticism of the producers and the creatives on this

983
01:03:43,760 --> 01:03:48,400
Speaker 1: broadcast at all. It's the algorithm that is powering it.

984
01:03:49,240 --> 01:03:54,280
Speaker 1: So is Netflix Synergy the pt Barnum of today, Not exactly,

985
01:03:54,560 --> 01:03:57,480
Speaker 1: but I do think the algorithm that guides its programming,

986
01:03:57,960 --> 01:04:01,960
Speaker 1: a guide clearly and logically follows in this broadcast is

987
01:04:02,120 --> 01:04:05,840
Speaker 1: the new faithless ringmaster behind a lot of what we consume.

988
01:04:06,800 --> 01:04:10,080
Speaker 1: Because at the end of the day, Barnum, McMahon and

989
01:04:10,280 --> 01:04:13,960
Speaker 1: Shay deserve to be taken to task, and I'm grateful

990
01:04:14,000 --> 01:04:17,200
Speaker 1: to live in a culture where that conversation can actually

991
01:04:17,320 --> 01:04:21,920
Speaker 1: be had. But they're fallible, fallible in a way that

992
01:04:22,080 --> 01:04:25,640
Speaker 1: an opaque algorithm is not a face that needs to

993
01:04:25,880 --> 01:04:28,600
Speaker 1: present you with the person to hate and not just

994
01:04:28,720 --> 01:04:31,480
Speaker 1: wordlessly serve it in front of you. And if you're

995
01:04:31,520 --> 01:04:34,840
Speaker 1: listening to this show, you're probably eating it right up

996
01:04:34,920 --> 01:04:38,400
Speaker 1: with me. At the time of this recording, Joey Chestnut

997
01:04:38,560 --> 01:04:42,880
Speaker 1: is the world's champion eater. Takio Kobayashi broke his personal

998
01:04:42,920 --> 01:04:46,080
Speaker 1: best score on the Netflix broadcast and remains the first

999
01:04:46,160 --> 01:04:50,400
Speaker 1: eating celebrity who introduced the technique, the training, and the

1000
01:04:50,480 --> 01:04:55,040
Speaker 1: persona that has come to define American professional eating. And

1001
01:04:55,160 --> 01:05:00,800
Speaker 1: he's really and truly retired, and so the and narrative

1002
01:05:01,200 --> 01:05:09,760
Speaker 1: of Joey and Kobe Your sixteenth minute ends now. Thank

1003
01:05:09,800 --> 01:05:13,080
Speaker 1: you so much for listening. Obviously, this topic is my

1004
01:05:13,360 --> 01:05:16,479
Speaker 1: absolute addiction, and I hope that this angle brought something

1005
01:05:16,520 --> 01:05:18,880
Speaker 1: new for you to hear more about my journey to

1006
01:05:18,960 --> 01:05:22,000
Speaker 1: Vegas to see Joey and Kobe face off one more time.

1007
01:05:22,560 --> 01:05:26,280
Speaker 1: Tune in Thursday for a minisode. And finally, here's a

1008
01:05:26,360 --> 01:05:29,600
Speaker 1: curse cameo. I ordered from George Shay in twenty twenty one,

1009
01:05:30,160 --> 01:05:34,200
Speaker 1: see you on Thursday, Ladies.

1010
01:05:34,000 --> 01:05:38,560
Speaker 9: And gentlemen of America, citizens of the world, We now

1011
01:05:39,320 --> 01:05:43,640
Speaker 9: address Joey, a man of incredible strength, a warrior king

1012
01:05:44,160 --> 01:05:46,840
Speaker 9: who stands with a land meets the horizon.

1013
01:05:46,680 --> 01:05:51,840
Speaker 14: Steadfast and unshakable, upon whose shoulders God has arranged the

1014
01:05:51,960 --> 01:05:56,960
Speaker 14: flesh of an archangel, a man of immense wisdom, who,

1015
01:05:57,720 --> 01:06:01,280
Speaker 14: while he is faced by a bunk and challenges, will

1016
01:06:01,440 --> 01:06:06,840
Speaker 14: stand on the ramparts of victory, overlooking a sea of truth.

1017
01:06:07,320 --> 01:06:10,720
Speaker 9: Because he will never stop, and he will never stand down.

1018
01:06:10,880 --> 01:06:13,720
Speaker 6: And he will never submit, and he will never surrender

1019
01:06:14,080 --> 01:06:17,280
Speaker 6: until his bones are cracked and splintered and scrape like

1020
01:06:17,480 --> 01:06:21,520
Speaker 6: chalk on pavement, until the very dome of Heaven collapses

1021
01:06:21,840 --> 01:06:25,000
Speaker 6: and the black avalanche of space pours down around us.

1022
01:06:25,280 --> 01:06:29,480
Speaker 6: He will fight on why Because the rock on which

1023
01:06:29,720 --> 01:06:32,480
Speaker 6: he stands is not a rock. It is the United

1024
01:06:32,560 --> 01:06:33,920
Speaker 6: States of America.

1025
01:06:35,400 --> 01:06:37,439
Speaker 13: And now it is go time.

1026
01:06:38,080 --> 01:06:38,919
Speaker 1: It is go time.

1027
01:06:39,040 --> 01:06:41,280
Speaker 6: Time, it is go no go, Lock and load and

1028
01:06:41,280 --> 01:06:42,720
Speaker 6: love him and leave him smoking. If you got them,

1029
01:06:42,720 --> 01:06:43,920
Speaker 6: see you want to see us seeing on the either

1030
01:06:44,040 --> 01:06:48,640
Speaker 6: side time time this condition red all hands on deck,

1031
01:06:48,680 --> 01:06:50,520
Speaker 6: batten down the hatches, belly up to the bar, do

1032
01:06:50,600 --> 01:06:52,200
Speaker 6: it too It feel the burn fire and the whole.

1033
01:06:52,240 --> 01:06:53,720
Speaker 9: Hold the phone, Go big or go home.

1034
01:06:53,880 --> 01:06:55,920
Speaker 5: Game on game day, game face. Never say never, Never

1035
01:06:55,960 --> 01:06:57,480
Speaker 5: say die, Never give up, Put up a shut up,

1036
01:06:57,480 --> 01:06:59,120
Speaker 5: shape up a ship out, show me the money, make

1037
01:06:59,160 --> 01:06:59,440
Speaker 5: my day.

1038
01:06:59,480 --> 01:06:59,800
Speaker 10: Good night.

1039
01:07:00,120 --> 01:07:01,080
Speaker 5: We wake me when it's over.

1040
01:07:01,240 --> 01:07:02,080
Speaker 1: It's go time.

1041
01:07:02,760 --> 01:07:05,000
Speaker 5: Homer from Jamie.

1042
01:07:09,320 --> 01:07:11,960
Speaker 1: Sixteenth Minute is a production of fool Zone Media and

1043
01:07:12,080 --> 01:07:15,720
Speaker 1: iHeart Radio. It is written, hosted, and produced by me,

1044
01:07:15,960 --> 01:07:19,960
Speaker 1: Jamie Loftus. Our executive producers are Sophie Lichterman and Robert Evans.

1045
01:07:20,160 --> 01:07:24,320
Speaker 1: Themes and Ian Johnson is our supervising producer and our editor.

1046
01:07:24,920 --> 01:07:28,720
Speaker 1: Our theme song is by Sad thirteen. Voice acting is

1047
01:07:28,800 --> 01:07:31,760
Speaker 1: from Grant Crater and Head. Shout outs to our dog

1048
01:07:31,880 --> 01:07:34,880
Speaker 1: producer Anderson, my Kat's Flee and Casper and my pet

1049
01:07:34,960 --> 01:07:37,360
Speaker 1: Rockberg who'll outli of us all Bye