WEBVTT - Using Digital Health Tools to Fight COVID-19 (Correct) 0:00:00.440 --> 0:00:02.960 This is Bloomberg Business Week. I'm Carol Masser and I'm 0:00:03.040 --> 0:00:05.480 Jason Kelly. We're here every day bringing you the latest 0:00:05.519 --> 0:00:09.800 news from the world's of business and finance, plus technology, politics, economics, 0:00:09.880 --> 0:00:13.480 all harnessing the power of Bloomberg Business Week reporters and editors, 0:00:13.480 --> 0:00:16.639 not to mention our hundred journalists and analysts more than 0:00:16.680 --> 0:00:19.280 a hundred and twenty countries. You can download Bloomberg Business 0:00:19.320 --> 0:00:22.200 Week on iTunes, SoundCloud, or Bloomberg dot Com. You can 0:00:22.200 --> 0:00:24.520 also listen to our radio show weekdays at two pm 0:00:24.520 --> 0:00:28.680 Eastern only on Bloomberg Radio. So as we focus increasingly 0:00:28.880 --> 0:00:31.720 on testing and tracing to get control of the coronavirus, 0:00:31.960 --> 0:00:36.360 technology will play a large role and really assessing lots 0:00:36.360 --> 0:00:39.640 of information. Here to talk about, specifically the digital tools 0:00:39.680 --> 0:00:43.479 to fight COVID nineteen is Dr Lane Labrick. He is 0:00:43.560 --> 0:00:48.519 an infectious disease UH epidemiologist UM and he's very well 0:00:48.560 --> 0:00:51.519 known when it comes to his work, specifically on applying 0:00:51.560 --> 0:00:56.320 information and communication technologies. Chair of the World Health Organization's 0:00:56.400 --> 0:00:59.800 Digital Health Guidelines Development Group. He's also an associate professor 0:00:59.840 --> 0:01:03.360 at Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health, which is 0:01:03.400 --> 0:01:06.600 of course supported by Michael R. Bloomberg, founder of Bloomberg, 0:01:06.640 --> 0:01:09.760 Gulp and Bloomberg Philanthropy. He joins us Dr Lubrieg on 0:01:09.800 --> 0:01:12.400 the phone from Baltimore. Dr Lubrig, nice to have you 0:01:12.480 --> 0:01:15.440 here with us. Um, we do hear an awful lot 0:01:15.520 --> 0:01:19.560 from governors and mayors, health officials about the importance of 0:01:19.640 --> 0:01:23.039 testing and tracing technology will play a huge role at 0:01:23.080 --> 0:01:26.319 all of this. Absolutely, thank you for having me, Carol. 0:01:26.440 --> 0:01:29.320 And you know, it's important to understand that unlike the 0:01:29.520 --> 0:01:33.920 influenza pandemic of we're living in a world that's more 0:01:33.959 --> 0:01:36.880 connected than ever before. They're more cell phones than there 0:01:36.880 --> 0:01:39.720 are people on the planet. So I think you know, 0:01:40.160 --> 0:01:42.759 each each of these cell phones has the computing power 0:01:42.840 --> 0:01:45.399 that's more than what we used to send man to 0:01:45.440 --> 0:01:48.080 the Moon and the Apollo mission. So if we if 0:01:48.120 --> 0:01:51.680 we fail to leverage the power of these devices, that 0:01:52.120 --> 0:01:55.800 that most if not all of the people who are 0:01:55.840 --> 0:01:59.560 who are living with with through this pandemic are having 0:01:59.560 --> 0:02:02.600 their kits will really be uh be missing out on 0:02:02.640 --> 0:02:07.200 a major, major opportunity. Um. The real question now is 0:02:07.200 --> 0:02:09.640 is you know, we're we're entering into a phase where 0:02:10.040 --> 0:02:13.320 it's a bit like the game of whack a mole, right, UH, 0:02:14.680 --> 0:02:17.080 if we if we're not giving a mallet to whack 0:02:17.160 --> 0:02:20.120 the mold down. When each time a case pops up, 0:02:20.480 --> 0:02:22.400 we need to be able to find out as soon 0:02:22.440 --> 0:02:25.440 as possible who they may have been in contact with, 0:02:26.040 --> 0:02:30.200 and the delays around finding out those contacts and trying 0:02:30.240 --> 0:02:33.600 to shut down the spread of the virus is going 0:02:33.639 --> 0:02:37.960 to be the difference between success and failure in reopening 0:02:38.040 --> 0:02:41.280 up the economy and getting out of this pandemic phase. 0:02:42.200 --> 0:02:45.680 And so in an ideal world, Dr Labrick, how does 0:02:45.760 --> 0:02:48.400 this work? I mean, how would it look to an 0:02:48.400 --> 0:02:52.080 everyday person like me? Carol is not an everyday person, 0:02:52.120 --> 0:02:55.880 it's an extraordinary person. But for an everyday person like myself, like, 0:02:56.360 --> 0:02:59.040 how am I interacting with this? So? I think you 0:02:59.080 --> 0:03:03.160 know both of your probably extraordinary people. But what we're 0:03:03.200 --> 0:03:07.480 talking about is having a large proportion of a population 0:03:07.720 --> 0:03:12.560 downloading UH an app or a series of apps that 0:03:12.639 --> 0:03:17.040 share a common backbone technology that that basically is on 0:03:17.080 --> 0:03:20.919 all the time, so that so that in the background 0:03:21.160 --> 0:03:25.160 it's capturing information, hopefully in a very secure and and 0:03:25.360 --> 0:03:29.480 UH and protected way, about who we're interacting with on 0:03:29.520 --> 0:03:34.360 a daily basis for extended periods of time. Then if 0:03:34.400 --> 0:03:37.440 if if down the road, someone finds out that they 0:03:37.480 --> 0:03:41.880 are COVID positive without going through the laborious process of 0:03:41.920 --> 0:03:45.360 trying to go back and sink through who were all 0:03:45.360 --> 0:03:49.160 the people that person had contact with over the past 0:03:49.240 --> 0:03:53.080 week or so, the app should be automatically able to 0:03:53.480 --> 0:03:57.960 calculate all of the other people who that person was 0:03:58.000 --> 0:04:00.880 in contact with, because those are of people have the 0:04:00.880 --> 0:04:04.680 app as well. And I think that's where the challenges, right. 0:04:04.760 --> 0:04:07.240 You can imagine if I if I'm standing in a 0:04:07.240 --> 0:04:11.280 crowd of people and I'm the only one of a 0:04:11.400 --> 0:04:14.400 hundred people who have that app on their phone, it's 0:04:14.440 --> 0:04:17.120 not going to do us any good. So so yeah, 0:04:17.160 --> 0:04:20.600 that's the real challenges is adoption. How do we get 0:04:20.800 --> 0:04:24.200 as many people as possible as part of our our 0:04:24.279 --> 0:04:28.560 civic duty to download these applications that will will then 0:04:28.600 --> 0:04:32.279 allow us to speed up that process of find finding 0:04:32.320 --> 0:04:36.400 the brush fires and and shutting them down effectively. That's 0:04:36.400 --> 0:04:39.680 that's the big challenge I have to say, doctor. Part 0:04:39.720 --> 0:04:42.680 of me is like, finally we're going to have technology 0:04:42.720 --> 0:04:47.919 cooperation in our kind of healthcare environment, right because I 0:04:47.920 --> 0:04:50.120 feel like it's been so slow to happen, and I 0:04:50.600 --> 0:04:53.680 do wonder if this is the hurdle that really creates 0:04:53.680 --> 0:04:57.680 some massive systems that makes our health care system more efficient, 0:04:57.760 --> 0:05:00.960 where the system works better and we benefit as patients. 0:05:01.000 --> 0:05:04.040 On the other hand, man, what kind of privacy are 0:05:04.040 --> 0:05:07.799 we giving up? Yeah, it's absolutely That's that's the million 0:05:07.880 --> 0:05:11.560 dollar questions, right it's it's um. It's a real difference 0:05:11.600 --> 0:05:17.800 between UH, collectivists and individualist societies where how much of 0:05:17.800 --> 0:05:21.599 our privacy are we willing to give up? And who 0:05:21.640 --> 0:05:26.080 are we willing to allow to monitor this data and 0:05:26.080 --> 0:05:28.560 and have access to this information? And this is at 0:05:28.600 --> 0:05:32.760 the heart of the big debate that's going on right now. UM. 0:05:32.920 --> 0:05:35.880 Apple and Google recently made a lot of news about 0:05:36.320 --> 0:05:39.719 launching a system that would allow this data to be 0:05:39.839 --> 0:05:44.280 captured in an anonymized and secure way, UM without giving 0:05:44.360 --> 0:05:48.920 control of that data to a centralized authority. And and 0:05:48.960 --> 0:05:51.520 that's where a lot of the challenges. The UK has 0:05:51.520 --> 0:05:53.960 said they're not going to go with that system, and 0:05:54.000 --> 0:05:57.120 other countries are are struggling through this, and Germany has 0:05:57.160 --> 0:06:00.200 just said that they will accept that decentralized this them. 0:06:00.200 --> 0:06:03.800 And what this means is the data is not made 0:06:03.839 --> 0:06:08.320 available to the public health authorities. Basically, you as the 0:06:08.360 --> 0:06:12.680 holder off the app get notified if you have been 0:06:13.160 --> 0:06:18.440 potentially exposed to some anonymous person who was shedding possibly 0:06:18.480 --> 0:06:22.960 shedding virus, and so you know, as a public health professional, 0:06:23.040 --> 0:06:25.680 would I like to have access to that information so 0:06:25.720 --> 0:06:29.919 I can help those people take care of themselves and 0:06:29.960 --> 0:06:32.960 I can help make sure they have the best information possible, 0:06:33.360 --> 0:06:36.280 and I can also track the number of potential cases 0:06:36.279 --> 0:06:39.920 in context. That would be the ideal, but I think 0:06:40.000 --> 0:06:43.760 we have to make some compromises about how much data 0:06:43.800 --> 0:06:47.080 people are willing to give away versus how many people 0:06:47.120 --> 0:06:49.680 we can get involved in these systems. Well, let's continue 0:06:49.720 --> 0:06:52.760 our conversation with Dr Alan labree Key is infectious disease 0:06:52.800 --> 0:06:57.200 epidemiologists and associate professor at Johns Hopkins University Bloomberg School 0:06:57.200 --> 0:07:00.080 of Public Health. And you just heard Charlie mentioned that 0:07:00.160 --> 0:07:03.560 that school, of course, supported by Mike Bloomberg, the owner 0:07:03.600 --> 0:07:07.240 of this radio station. So Dr Labrick, you know, one 0:07:07.240 --> 0:07:09.159 of the questions that I feel like comes up. And 0:07:09.200 --> 0:07:11.920 we talked a lot about the privacy aspect to this, 0:07:13.080 --> 0:07:15.360 but I keep thinking about this notion that we live 0:07:15.360 --> 0:07:18.760 in the global world and people travel, at least in 0:07:18.800 --> 0:07:23.560 normal times all over the globe. How does this tracing 0:07:23.760 --> 0:07:27.160 work globally. It's one thing for like my little town 0:07:27.360 --> 0:07:29.840 here in you know, the New York suburbs to maybe 0:07:29.840 --> 0:07:32.720 be able to pull this off, but doing this at 0:07:32.760 --> 0:07:38.480 scale seems really hard. Yeah, I mean it's a good question, Jason. 0:07:38.520 --> 0:07:42.520 I think the there are different tools for different parts 0:07:42.600 --> 0:07:48.640 of the pandemic problem. The the application for contact tracing 0:07:48.720 --> 0:07:51.760 that that we've been talking about is really about how 0:07:51.800 --> 0:07:55.320 do we manage the bulk of the forest fire that 0:07:55.440 --> 0:07:59.360 we're dealing with here in the US. And and if 0:07:59.400 --> 0:08:02.680 as a country tree we can come together and use 0:08:02.720 --> 0:08:06.600 a technology in a way that's smart, that protects this 0:08:06.760 --> 0:08:10.360 fundamental human right to privacy that's very important in a 0:08:10.440 --> 0:08:15.240 democracy UM, and that is that is carefully overseen and 0:08:15.840 --> 0:08:19.680 in a bipartisan way, in a nonpartisan way, that the 0:08:19.720 --> 0:08:23.360 personal information is used only to protect public health and 0:08:23.400 --> 0:08:26.800 for no other purpose. And and whenever it's possible to 0:08:27.000 --> 0:08:31.000 de aggregate or de identify data, to aggregate data or 0:08:31.000 --> 0:08:34.480 to de identify data, UM, so that you know, individual 0:08:34.520 --> 0:08:38.480 identity isn't compromised. I think we have to learn from 0:08:38.480 --> 0:08:43.079 what other countries have done successfully, uh and and try 0:08:43.120 --> 0:08:47.199 to adapt things that places like Hong Kong or Singapore 0:08:47.640 --> 0:08:51.080 or South Korea have done with with varying degrees of success, 0:08:51.120 --> 0:08:55.080 but nonetheless they've they've used the power of technology to 0:08:55.160 --> 0:08:59.480 get a handle on the the pandemic in their country. 0:08:59.520 --> 0:09:02.920 So how do we adopt those strategies to the US 0:09:03.160 --> 0:09:06.760 is really the critical question at hand. I do wonder 0:09:06.880 --> 0:09:12.520 to Dr Labrick, if post nine eleven right, I feel 0:09:12.520 --> 0:09:15.920 like there's a lot of information that we've already shared, um, 0:09:15.960 --> 0:09:18.920 just because of making sure that we're safe when we 0:09:18.960 --> 0:09:22.679 get on airlines and airplanes, um, and whether it's through 0:09:22.679 --> 0:09:25.520 global entry or through two t s A. So I 0:09:25.559 --> 0:09:29.280 do wonder if we've already jumped over one hurdle and 0:09:29.960 --> 0:09:32.520 this is just another one that you know, this is 0:09:32.559 --> 0:09:34.679 the world we're living in and we need to figure 0:09:34.679 --> 0:09:37.200 out how to be safe on so many different levels. 0:09:37.320 --> 0:09:41.120 Is that fair or not? Apples to apples, I think 0:09:41.120 --> 0:09:43.720 it's it's a choice that that we have to make 0:09:43.760 --> 0:09:48.880 individually and collectively. I think this kind of access to 0:09:49.040 --> 0:09:53.880 information or special legal powers that come into play during 0:09:53.920 --> 0:09:58.440 public health emergencies is not something that doesn't have precedent. Um. 0:09:58.480 --> 0:10:02.200 There have been many, many epidemics and and outbreaks of 0:10:02.280 --> 0:10:07.760 disease in US history, where legal authority has been granted 0:10:07.880 --> 0:10:12.760 to public health UH systems to to take action and 0:10:12.760 --> 0:10:16.680 and protect the public health during an emergency. So I 0:10:16.679 --> 0:10:19.440 think it's it's important to to convey to the public 0:10:19.559 --> 0:10:24.600 that these measures are largely temporary, for for the most 0:10:24.640 --> 0:10:27.320 part um in order for us to be able to 0:10:27.400 --> 0:10:32.319 control the epidemic and move us into a state of 0:10:32.320 --> 0:10:36.199 of normalcy, relative normalcy where we can go about our 0:10:36.280 --> 0:10:39.960 daily lives without the amount of fear and concerns that 0:10:40.040 --> 0:10:44.000 has been so dominant over the past four to five weeks. 0:10:44.320 --> 0:10:46.640 So I think I think you hit the nail on 0:10:46.679 --> 0:10:49.400 the head. We have to consider how is life going 0:10:49.440 --> 0:10:53.760 to change permanently and what are some of the emergency 0:10:53.920 --> 0:10:57.800 temporary measures that we have to take as a country 0:10:57.880 --> 0:11:01.199 in order for us to get a handle on this virus. 0:11:02.160 --> 0:11:04.760 Only about thirty seconds left here. How optimistic are you 0:11:04.920 --> 0:11:07.960 at this moment that we do the right thing. I'm 0:11:08.000 --> 0:11:12.800 I'm actually quite optimistic. I think we're impatient, but we 0:11:12.880 --> 0:11:17.200 need to be more patient and more optimistic. Science science 0:11:17.240 --> 0:11:22.120 and scientists know for the most part ways to combat 0:11:22.200 --> 0:11:24.880 this pandemic, and we need to be listening to the 0:11:24.960 --> 0:11:29.079 voice of reason and the voice of science. All Right, God, 0:11:29.120 --> 0:11:31.840 I feel better. Yeah, I feel a little better. Yeah, 0:11:32.000 --> 0:11:35.480 it's a privacy thing. You're a little nervous about a 0:11:35.480 --> 0:11:37.680 little nervous about that. I have to I have to 0:11:37.720 --> 0:11:39.520 say there is part of me that's a skeptic in like, 0:11:39.679 --> 0:11:41.440 who do I trust with all of this? But you 0:11:41.480 --> 0:11:43.520 know what, I feel like so much of our information 0:11:43.640 --> 0:11:47.720 is unfortunately out there already. Yeah, totally, absolutely, Yeah, no, 0:11:47.920 --> 0:11:51.160 that is that's true. All right. Our thanks to Dr 0:11:51.200 --> 0:11:55.400 Allen Labrick, so smart infectious disease epidemiologists and Associate professor 0:11:55.640 --> 0:11:59.040 at Johns Hopkins University Bloomberg School of Public Healthy is 0:11:59.080 --> 0:12:01.560 also the chair of the World Old Health Organizations Digital 0:12:01.559 --> 0:12:04.640 Health Guidelines Development Group. On the front lines in a 0:12:04.679 --> 0:12:09.040 different way in some sense, in terms of understanding where 0:12:09.080 --> 0:12:11.160 we go from here. Yeah, on the next stage, I 0:12:11.160 --> 0:12:12.960 think in terms of dealing with the virus. Who are 0:12:13.000 --> 0:12:16.360 listening to Bloomberg Business Week, Jason Kelly, Carroll Master, Let's 0:12:16.360 --> 0:12:19.800 talk about the cover story in Bloomberg Business Week this week. 0:12:19.960 --> 0:12:23.040 It is a tour to force in many ways, and 0:12:23.080 --> 0:12:26.520 one of these stories that you really just want to 0:12:26.520 --> 0:12:28.680 seek your teeth into. And it also tells you a 0:12:28.720 --> 0:12:31.480 lot about the state of the world, including a little 0:12:31.480 --> 0:12:34.040 bit on the virus obviously because you can't touch anything 0:12:34.040 --> 0:12:37.640 without that, but the oil market and specifically the story 0:12:37.679 --> 0:12:39.880 of excellent Brian Gruley wrote it. He joins us on 0:12:39.880 --> 0:12:43.240 the phone from Florida, as does Joe Webber, the editor 0:12:43.320 --> 0:12:46.920 of Bloomberg Business Week. So Joel, you know, it was 0:12:47.000 --> 0:12:49.400 interesting because you know, we communicate with you about what 0:12:49.400 --> 0:12:52.000 the cover is going to be, and when you told 0:12:52.080 --> 0:12:54.800 us and I was like, oh yeah, sort of like 0:12:54.840 --> 0:12:57.080 put my hands together. I can't wait to get my 0:12:57.160 --> 0:13:02.079 hands on that. Tell us why now? Well, um, it's 0:13:02.120 --> 0:13:05.079 It's actually ends up being a pretty important um week 0:13:05.120 --> 0:13:07.679 for Exxon. They had a divin an announcement that they 0:13:07.760 --> 0:13:12.240 made yesterday. They have earnings on Friday. Obviously. The backdrop 0:13:12.640 --> 0:13:16.360 is the carnage that happened in the oil markets last week, 0:13:16.400 --> 0:13:21.280 where we saw basically some unprecedented action with oil prices 0:13:21.320 --> 0:13:25.760 going negative and surplus just being you know, everything that 0:13:25.800 --> 0:13:28.840 can possibly hold oil anywhere in the world of holding 0:13:28.880 --> 0:13:31.440 oil right now, all of which leads us to a 0:13:31.480 --> 0:13:35.640 company that's like basically the west most powerful oil company, 0:13:35.679 --> 0:13:39.960 and for years this is actually basically the most valuable 0:13:40.000 --> 0:13:43.800 company in the world. But as as Brian's story, and 0:13:44.000 --> 0:13:47.160 to be clearly co wrote it with Kevin Crowley, UM, 0:13:47.440 --> 0:13:51.600 it makes clear there's basically been a decade of miscalculations 0:13:51.600 --> 0:13:55.160 that UM has really gotten us to this moment and 0:13:55.280 --> 0:14:00.520 now comes cheap oil. UM with the wave of coronavirus. UM. Brian, 0:14:00.559 --> 0:14:03.800 when you guys dug into this, what what kind of miscalculations, UM, 0:14:03.880 --> 0:14:11.680 did you guys find? You know, essentially Excellent started behaving 0:14:12.600 --> 0:14:16.679 less in a less disciplined way. Then it had into 0:14:17.000 --> 0:14:20.040 you know, the early aughts where you know, they would 0:14:20.040 --> 0:14:24.760 announce a deal for some acreage or another company, and 0:14:24.840 --> 0:14:27.600 it was clear to the street, here's how they're going 0:14:27.680 --> 0:14:31.720 to make money off this in the near term. And 0:14:31.840 --> 0:14:35.280 so in oh nine they bought a really big natural 0:14:35.360 --> 0:14:40.120 gas company to get in on shale gas. And I 0:14:40.200 --> 0:14:47.120 think gas prices started dropping even before they closed the deal. UM. 0:14:47.200 --> 0:14:50.720 And they could have gone into shale oil they totally didn't, 0:14:51.280 --> 0:14:52.800 um be could have made a lot of money then 0:14:52.840 --> 0:14:56.720 at that time, but they did gas. They got creams uh. 0:14:56.920 --> 0:15:00.560 Same thing. They went into the oil sands in the 0:15:00.640 --> 0:15:07.000 Western Canada, very expensive way to get oil out of sand. 0:15:07.120 --> 0:15:11.920 Essentially it's more like mining than drilling, and that turned 0:15:11.920 --> 0:15:16.120 out to be sixteen billion dollars spent, not for not 0:15:16.360 --> 0:15:19.320 very much. Russia ano they're going to be a great 0:15:19.360 --> 0:15:23.480 big deal with the old xcen CEO Rex Phillerson, his 0:15:23.600 --> 0:15:29.000 comrad the Vladimir Putin, envisioning three to five billion dollars 0:15:29.040 --> 0:15:32.760 in the Arctic, and then Plutin went after Crimea and 0:15:32.880 --> 0:15:36.520 Obama said, you're not doing business over there anymore XN 0:15:36.760 --> 0:15:39.480 and that kind of killed that deal. And so it 0:15:39.560 --> 0:15:45.360 was going after these great, big, risky deals. And underlying 0:15:45.440 --> 0:15:49.400 this was to some degree the assumption that we all 0:15:49.440 --> 0:15:53.520 held for many, many years, decades even that oil is 0:15:53.600 --> 0:15:56.720 a finite resource and it's gonna run out, We're gonna 0:15:56.800 --> 0:16:00.440 hit peak oil. And and as as all they were 0:16:00.480 --> 0:16:04.840 doing all that, that assumption was changing radically because of 0:16:04.880 --> 0:16:11.560 the technology the navals companies to break into very tight 0:16:11.840 --> 0:16:16.200 spaces of oil and gas and bring out these huge 0:16:17.040 --> 0:16:21.160 deposits of oil and gas that just weren't acceptable before. 0:16:21.360 --> 0:16:27.119 So we went from uh scarce assumed scarcity to certain abundance. 0:16:27.440 --> 0:16:29.880 So I have to say, Brian, I feel like you 0:16:29.880 --> 0:16:32.520 and Kevin have the makings of a book here, and 0:16:32.560 --> 0:16:35.600 there have been several books written about x because I 0:16:35.640 --> 0:16:38.920 think you cite um one where they called x M 0:16:39.000 --> 0:16:42.440 one of the most powerful businesses ever produced by American capitalism. 0:16:42.520 --> 0:16:45.720 And they have been a company, right, just great, a 0:16:45.760 --> 0:16:48.360 sign of great corporate America and just have plowed ahead 0:16:48.760 --> 0:16:52.720 decade after decade. So here we are now, and they're 0:16:52.720 --> 0:16:55.360 in a tough spot on a many different levels. Can 0:16:55.400 --> 0:17:01.280 they plow ahead? Oh? Yeah? I mean, first of all, xcens, 0:17:01.360 --> 0:17:05.040 you know, they're not going bankrupt or they're not They're 0:17:05.040 --> 0:17:08.840 not in that kind of trouble. Um. Uh, they have 0:17:09.280 --> 0:17:13.800 a reasonably strong balance sheet. Given the circumstances in the 0:17:13.840 --> 0:17:17.359 market and what's going to happen in oil in the 0:17:17.400 --> 0:17:21.000 next several months, there is there is a good chance 0:17:21.200 --> 0:17:26.000 that a lot of the independent, smaller players in the 0:17:26.119 --> 0:17:30.640 shale fields in West Texas and in North Dakota are 0:17:30.720 --> 0:17:32.439 just you know, they're not gonna be able to make it, 0:17:32.840 --> 0:17:34.760 and so they're gonna look to the big boys to 0:17:34.840 --> 0:17:37.880 buy them out. And you know, the Xcens and Chevrons 0:17:37.880 --> 0:17:40.280 of the world are not gonna pay them ninety cents 0:17:40.320 --> 0:17:42.320 on the dollar. They're gonna buy them on the cheap. 0:17:42.560 --> 0:17:45.520 So that's gonna be an opportunity for them to buy 0:17:45.600 --> 0:17:48.679 some assets that they could make you useful on the 0:17:48.800 --> 0:17:52.119 cheap um. But other than that, you know, some of 0:17:52.119 --> 0:17:56.080 the investors we spoke with, they're like, so they just 0:17:56.240 --> 0:18:00.560 keep spending, expending, spending on this betting on this thing 0:18:00.560 --> 0:18:03.119 that's going to happen five years from now, and you know, 0:18:03.160 --> 0:18:06.159 it's like free beer tomorrow. They just keep pushing your 0:18:06.160 --> 0:18:09.600 back five years and at some point, you know, well 0:18:09.640 --> 0:18:13.280 the streets already expressed its frustration with that's on um. 0:18:13.359 --> 0:18:16.919 But there's some opportunity here FLA. I think one of 0:18:16.920 --> 0:18:19.520 the main challenges Jason just in the and Gerald just 0:18:19.600 --> 0:18:22.199 in that here and now is is literally just that 0:18:22.280 --> 0:18:25.240 cost of oil. Right Like, we have a pretty pretty 0:18:25.240 --> 0:18:28.760 amazing look at what their break even cost is for 0:18:30.200 --> 0:18:32.399 and it is if I just asked you, what do 0:18:32.440 --> 0:18:37.359 you think it would be? Jason, so I I unfortunately 0:18:37.960 --> 0:18:40.359 I firstually already know it because you told me as 0:18:40.480 --> 0:18:44.720 we were teeing up the fight. It's sixty right five 0:18:44.760 --> 0:18:48.640 dollars more than BT ten dollars more than Shell and Chapron. 0:18:49.040 --> 0:18:50.960 And you just think about where the constant oil is, 0:18:51.000 --> 0:18:54.680 and it just the dynamics are just moving against them. 0:18:54.800 --> 0:18:57.639 But like to Brian's point here, like this is a 0:18:57.680 --> 0:19:00.360 company that they know what they're doing and be they've 0:19:00.359 --> 0:19:02.440 missed it a couple of times. And the other thing 0:19:02.480 --> 0:19:05.040 that we're going to see now is um Texas has 0:19:05.040 --> 0:19:07.600 proven and the Permian basin has proven to be this 0:19:08.119 --> 0:19:11.400 really powerful force that can switch it on switch it off. 0:19:11.440 --> 0:19:13.360 But it's also a place that there's a lot of debt. 0:19:13.680 --> 0:19:15.680 So somebody like an next Time could come in and 0:19:15.840 --> 0:19:18.760 actually make some pretty lucrative investments and and you know, 0:19:19.280 --> 0:19:24.440 perhaps write its ship a little bit. Um. It's a 0:19:24.560 --> 0:19:27.720 it's an absolute must read. Um. I really was blown 0:19:27.720 --> 0:19:29.840 away by the story. It's the cover story this week. 0:19:30.080 --> 0:19:34.240 And the other great thing is, as we've recently started doing, 0:19:34.240 --> 0:19:36.960 you can actually hear this story later on in our 0:19:37.040 --> 0:19:40.760 podcast feed. You'll hear a professional reading. And it's not 0:19:40.840 --> 0:19:44.520 even us, more professional than us reading the story, but 0:19:44.600 --> 0:19:49.320 it is in the Bloomberg because this week, uh podcast thanks, 0:19:49.880 --> 0:19:53.480 you know, more professional than me that, But it's not you. 0:19:53.800 --> 0:19:55.520 It's a great no, it's not. And it is a 0:19:55.520 --> 0:19:58.000 wonderful way to listen to a story because there's so 0:19:58.040 --> 0:20:02.359 many interesting perspectives facts in there and information about where 0:20:02.480 --> 0:20:04.920 XN was and where it is today, so definitely check 0:20:04.920 --> 0:20:07.440 it out. Our thanks to Joel Weber, editor of Business Week, 0:20:07.480 --> 0:20:10.920 and Brian Grooley, Projects and Investigations reporter at Bloomberg News. 0:20:10.960 --> 0:20:14.520 This is Bloomberg Business Week with Carol Masser and Jason 0:20:14.600 --> 0:20:18.439 Kelly on Bloomberg Radio. This is a conversation. I've really 0:20:18.440 --> 0:20:21.199 been looking forward to this guy. I've known for a 0:20:21.400 --> 0:20:24.800 number of years, followed him and all of his adventures 0:20:24.880 --> 0:20:27.760 very closely. Steve Paliuca is of course co chairman of 0:20:27.800 --> 0:20:31.160 Being Capital, also the co owner of the Boston Celtics. 0:20:31.200 --> 0:20:34.280 Heard of him, he joins us on the phone from Boston. Steve, 0:20:34.320 --> 0:20:38.040 how are you. I'm great, how are you? We're doing okay, 0:20:38.119 --> 0:20:40.400 you know what I mean, as best as we can do. 0:20:40.520 --> 0:20:43.000 I guess, I guess we've all had better months we 0:20:43.080 --> 0:20:47.400 have we have indeed, So tell us about Boston and 0:20:47.440 --> 0:20:51.480 what you're working on, because obviously folks like you sort 0:20:51.520 --> 0:20:54.080 of rolling up their sleeves and putting together a plan 0:20:54.480 --> 0:20:56.639 that's what's got to happen, and you're part of a 0:20:56.680 --> 0:21:01.160 group there, Uh, tell us what you're up to. Well, 0:21:01.400 --> 0:21:06.040 this is uh obviously a huge systemic complicated problem. And uh, 0:21:06.359 --> 0:21:09.760 I've been fortunate to be at Bank Capital involved in 0:21:09.800 --> 0:21:12.440 healthcare investing, biotech investing for a long period of time. 0:21:12.440 --> 0:21:16.960 And uh, I've really got a great group of scientists 0:21:17.000 --> 0:21:19.800 that have pitched in this effort, along with the mass 0:21:19.840 --> 0:21:23.760 High Tech Council and incredible group with with really smart CEOs. 0:21:23.800 --> 0:21:26.760 And so we started a while back trying to think 0:21:26.760 --> 0:21:29.240 that we're gonna need a back to work plan in 0:21:29.240 --> 0:21:32.119 the face of COVID because a vaccine will be twelve 0:21:32.200 --> 0:21:35.919 d eighty months away at best case, and that somebody's 0:21:35.920 --> 0:21:38.000 gotta start thinking about that. And we had the the 0:21:38.240 --> 0:21:42.000 expertise and group to put it together, also mckensey consulting teams, 0:21:41.960 --> 0:21:44.280 so a lot of resources. So we began looking at 0:21:44.320 --> 0:21:47.400 that in earnest about three weeks ago. The focus three 0:21:47.440 --> 0:21:50.800 weeks ago and appropriate focus of the government was really 0:21:50.880 --> 0:21:53.879 keeping the hospital systems working in a fantastic job of 0:21:53.920 --> 0:21:57.440 that here in Massachusetts, Charlie Baker and uh we send 0:21:57.480 --> 0:22:00.439 Governor fleto and in the hospital leadership of an amazing 0:22:00.520 --> 0:22:03.119 job at that. But we thought we'd we'd try to 0:22:03.160 --> 0:22:05.199 get a bunch of data and get out ahead of 0:22:05.200 --> 0:22:06.880 what will happen when we are going back to work, 0:22:06.920 --> 0:22:09.080 and how do we go back to work to accomplish 0:22:09.080 --> 0:22:12.399 two things. One would be we can't have the hospital 0:22:12.440 --> 0:22:15.840 system overwhelmed again, so steps on how we would not 0:22:15.880 --> 0:22:19.160 have to be overwhelmed if if this thing's not back. 0:22:19.720 --> 0:22:22.600 And second, um, how do we have people go back 0:22:22.600 --> 0:22:25.920 to work safely? And so we focused getting data from 0:22:25.920 --> 0:22:28.159 all over the world with the best scientists and and 0:22:28.440 --> 0:22:30.119 uh and and all the resources that we have to 0:22:30.160 --> 0:22:33.960 put that into a kind of succinct presentation. Hey, Steve, 0:22:34.000 --> 0:22:36.400 I do wonder too. Okay, you know did you look 0:22:36.400 --> 0:22:38.959 at China? Did you look at South Korea? I'm curious 0:22:38.960 --> 0:22:41.640 some of the conversations that you guys had in trying 0:22:41.680 --> 0:22:45.960 to figure out how do you do this? Uh? You 0:22:46.000 --> 0:22:47.800 know the way the way you you do this is 0:22:48.200 --> 0:22:51.160 trying to segment the problem. It's a it's a huge 0:22:51.200 --> 0:22:53.520 problem that you can't it's overwhelming if you try to 0:22:53.560 --> 0:22:56.280 attack the whole problem. So you segment into those two 0:22:56.280 --> 0:22:57.720 issues on how do you keep how do you keep 0:22:57.760 --> 0:23:00.520 the hospitals of the capacity there and how do you 0:23:01.520 --> 0:23:04.600 really reduce what's called the the are not factor That 0:23:04.600 --> 0:23:06.840 that's a complicated way of saying the rate of spread 0:23:06.840 --> 0:23:10.240 of the virus. UH. And then with with with the 0:23:10.280 --> 0:23:15.119 resources we have scientists here, great scientists in Massachusetts, UM 0:23:15.600 --> 0:23:19.640 by Dr Tom Cahill, UH, we we can look over 0:23:19.640 --> 0:23:22.080 the world for their contexts and everything that's out there 0:23:22.680 --> 0:23:26.760 and review different papers and different subjects and different things 0:23:26.840 --> 0:23:28.679 that different countries have used, what the results have been, 0:23:29.119 --> 0:23:30.720 and then as best we can try to call it that, 0:23:30.800 --> 0:23:34.400 put put that together and make the best demonstrative practices 0:23:34.480 --> 0:23:38.000 to see what can benefit us in Massachusetts. And so Steve, 0:23:38.040 --> 0:23:40.200 when you look at back to work and and sort 0:23:40.200 --> 0:23:43.520 of what that's going to look like, so many conversations happening, 0:23:43.560 --> 0:23:48.240