WEBVTT - Monologue: The Pale Horsemen Arrive

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<v Speaker 1>Media, and I looked in Behold a Pale Horse, and

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<v Speaker 1>the writer's name was the Smiling Man. This is your

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<v Speaker 1>weekly Better Offlying monologue, and I'm your host ed Zitron.

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<v Speaker 1>This week I put out one of my most consequential

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<v Speaker 1>newsletters of all time, called the AI Demand Bubble, pulling

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<v Speaker 1>together multiple distinct financial analyst notes from Wells Fargo, Barclay's,

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<v Speaker 1>and UBS that directly estimated that seventy percent or more

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<v Speaker 1>of the AI revenues of Microsoft, Google, and Amazon were

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<v Speaker 1>from either open Ai or Anthropic. To be clear, UBS

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<v Speaker 1>estimated the next year, Anthropic and open AI's compute spend

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<v Speaker 1>will be forty eight percent of all Google Cloud revenues,

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<v Speaker 1>which means that they will likely account for even more

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<v Speaker 1>than seventy percent. But I wanted to be fair. This

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<v Speaker 1>was both the colossal pain in the ars and the

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<v Speaker 1>story that I knew woud piss off a lot of

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<v Speaker 1>people because of its huge ramifications. As a result, I've

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<v Speaker 1>had a ton of pushback from people that either outright

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<v Speaker 1>deny that this is the case, or say, actually it's good.

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<v Speaker 1>The two one sustainable companies are the majority of AI

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<v Speaker 1>revenues for companies that spent over a trillion dollars. Actually,

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<v Speaker 1>that's great anyway. Twenty four hours later, Bloomberg ran a

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<v Speaker 1>story estimating, based on open AI's twenty four point one

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<v Speaker 1>billion dollar contribution to Microsoft's fiscal year twenty twenty six

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<v Speaker 1>revenues and previous statements, the open ai alone contributed to

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<v Speaker 1>seventy percent or more of Microsoft's AI revenues for the year.

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<v Speaker 1>For some context, Microsoft has spent twenty six point one

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<v Speaker 1>three billion dollars in capital expensires since the beginning of

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<v Speaker 1>twenty twenty two. And other than getting to have the

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<v Speaker 1>swagger of someone who just laid out a seven thousand

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<v Speaker 1>worth thesis founded in deep research and hard numbers, only

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<v Speaker 1>to get their work validated in less than a day,

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<v Speaker 1>this story also confirms my greatest fears about the state

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<v Speaker 1>of the AI industry and the actual demand for AI compume.

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<v Speaker 1>Microsoft has spent over two hundred billion dollar dollar and

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<v Speaker 1>that's not including the thirteen billion and it invested in

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<v Speaker 1>open ai or the losses it's incurred running their services

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<v Speaker 1>at cost at least in twenty twenty four, but potentially beyond,

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<v Speaker 1>to create a customer that is now worth seven percent

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<v Speaker 1>of its annual revenue. That cannot sustain its existence without

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<v Speaker 1>near constant flows of venture capital funding. Microsoft's year over

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<v Speaker 1>year growth for fiscal year twenty twenty six was about

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<v Speaker 1>seventeen point seven percent, But when you remove open AI's

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<v Speaker 1>twenty four point one billion dollars in revenue, which comes

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<v Speaker 1>from open AI's compute spending revenue share, Microsoft's year over

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<v Speaker 1>year growth was more like nine point two four percent,

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<v Speaker 1>the lowest it would be since fiscal year twenty twenty three,

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<v Speaker 1>when it only grew by seven percent. But there is

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<v Speaker 1>one big difference, and that well, capital expenditures in the

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<v Speaker 1>entire fiscal year twenty twenty three were thirty one point

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<v Speaker 1>eight billion dollars, and Microsoft spent thirty five point eight

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<v Speaker 1>billion dollars in the fourth quarter of the fiscal year

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<v Speaker 1>of twenty twenty six, a year when it spent one

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<v Speaker 1>hundred and fifteen billion goddamn dollars, and it was to

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<v Speaker 1>spend another one hundred and seventy five billion dollars in

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<v Speaker 1>capex in fiscal year twenty twenty seven, which begins July Firs,

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<v Speaker 1>twenty twenty six. It's annoying, but we're moving on. Oh

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<v Speaker 1>and open Ai, arguably Microsoft's largest customer and responsible for

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<v Speaker 1>nearly half of its growth in the last fiscal year,

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<v Speaker 1>is going to run out of money, and by nature

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<v Speaker 1>of it being seventy percent of Microsoft's AI revenues, it's

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<v Speaker 1>very obvious that there are no other large customers that

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<v Speaker 1>exist that could possibly take up all of this infrastructure,

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<v Speaker 1>other than, of course, weird Warrio Ama das Anthropic, who

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<v Speaker 1>is in exactly the same position as open Ai, but

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<v Speaker 1>with a slightly more annoying voice. Because we're near the exponential.

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<v Speaker 1>This also means that any future revenue guidance and analyst

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<v Speaker 1>expectations are now set under the explicit assumption that Anthropic

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<v Speaker 1>and open Ai will both have the need for and

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<v Speaker 1>be able to pay for increasingly larger levels of compute

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<v Speaker 1>at increasingly higher prices. Based on the analyst notes I

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<v Speaker 1>reported on which are in the newsletter or at least

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<v Speaker 1>quotes ubs Wills, far Going Barclay's all have the expectation

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<v Speaker 1>that much of Google, Amazon, and Microsoft's revenues are going

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<v Speaker 1>to come from open AI and Anthropic for the next

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<v Speaker 1>few years, and they don't seem to be diverging from

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<v Speaker 1>that point in any any way. Everyone just thinks that

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<v Speaker 1>this is where it's going to come from. Any failure

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<v Speaker 1>for these revenues to appear out of insolvency, lack of demand,

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<v Speaker 1>or unbuilt data center capacity meaning they can't get paid

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<v Speaker 1>will piss off a Wall Street that's been brainwashed into

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<v Speaker 1>believing that these three companies are growing because of diverse

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<v Speaker 1>demand for AI services, rather than having pissed the trillion

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<v Speaker 1>dollars up the walls mostly to just feed themselves money.

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<v Speaker 1>I am not confident that the market will actually understand

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<v Speaker 1>what Bloomberg has said. As I'm looking now, Microsoft is

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<v Speaker 1>up two percent. Jesus spark in Christ, So let me

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<v Speaker 1>spell it out for you. Seventy percent of Microsoft's AI

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<v Speaker 1>revenues are from either its revenue share of open AI's money,

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<v Speaker 1>or open ai spending money to rent out compute from Azure.

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<v Speaker 1>This means that Microsoft is now dependent on open Ai

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<v Speaker 1>for future revenue growth, as the company now represents more

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<v Speaker 1>than seven percent of its annual revenues and there does

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<v Speaker 1>not appear to be significant contribution from anything outside of

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<v Speaker 1>single digit billllions of annual revenue from Microsoft three to

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<v Speaker 1>sixty five. Copiler, a product mostly sold by tricking people

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<v Speaker 1>into signing contracts like doctor facilie. In the beginning of

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<v Speaker 1>Princess and the Frog, Microsoft believed it would create an independent,

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<v Speaker 1>ultra growth engine from its investments in open Ai. Instead,

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<v Speaker 1>it has created a parasite. At seventy percent of AI revenues.

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<v Speaker 1>Open Ai represents the failure of saching Adella's empire Microsoft

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<v Speaker 1>to spend two hundred and sixty billion dollars on infrastructure

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<v Speaker 1>for demand that does not exist outside of two different

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<v Speaker 1>companies that purn tens of billions of dollars a year.

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<v Speaker 1>And to make matters worse, open Ai and Anthropic must

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<v Speaker 1>grow their compute spend aggressively every single year to keep

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<v Speaker 1>up with the expectations of analysts, which will mean it

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<v Speaker 1>will need more and more money, which means anyone investing

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<v Speaker 1>in Microsoft is effectively gambling on how long open Ai

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<v Speaker 1>and Anthropic can continue to raise money before they simply

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<v Speaker 1>exhaust every available form of capital. This also means that

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<v Speaker 1>there's not really real demand for AI, at least not

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<v Speaker 1>remotely commensurate with the capital expenditure or all of the

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<v Speaker 1>endless blathering on about how much the world is changing

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<v Speaker 1>because of AI. Microsoft has tens of thousands of Azure

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<v Speaker 1>and software salespeople, the single most expertise in building large

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<v Speaker 1>scale infrastructure outside of AWS, and the single most ruthless

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<v Speaker 1>CFO outside of Oracle. If they were actual demand, actual margins,

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<v Speaker 1>actual customers, they would sell to literally anybody else. They

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<v Speaker 1>would sell that compute to literally anyone else other than

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<v Speaker 1>Open Ai. They would sell it to Gargamel. Microsoft would

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<v Speaker 1>happily help Gargamel kill every single smurf rather than talk

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<v Speaker 1>to Sam Thucking Altman or Darier Amiday. Ever, again, if

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<v Speaker 1>there were meaningful demand for a compute or AI software,

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<v Speaker 1>Microsoft would be representative of it as the largest vendor

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<v Speaker 1>in the world of both. Seventy percent of its AI

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<v Speaker 1>revenues and seven percent of its entire annual revenues come

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<v Speaker 1>from a company that just had to raise one hundred

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<v Speaker 1>and twenty two billion dollars in March and then delay

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<v Speaker 1>its IPO because its advisors didn't think it would get

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<v Speaker 1>a trillion dollar valuation. The demand is not there for

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<v Speaker 1>the over three hundred gigawatts of data center capacity in planning,

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<v Speaker 1>outside of course of Open AI and Anthropic, who still

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<v Speaker 1>to this day have yet to prove any possible way

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<v Speaker 1>of becoming profitable and have had to raise over a

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<v Speaker 1>combined two hundred billion dollars in the last seven months

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<v Speaker 1>just to keep the lights on. To be clear, sam

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<v Speaker 1>Altman has also signed up for over seven hundred and

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<v Speaker 1>fifty billion dollars worth of commitments, which means that Google, Amazon, Microsoft, Core, Weave, Cerebrus, Iron, Nebius, Lambda,

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<v Speaker 1>and any other associated counterparty's future revenue growth is dependent

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<v Speaker 1>on Clammy sam Morton's ability to raise more than the

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<v Speaker 1>combined sum of global venture capital in the last year

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<v Speaker 1>in the next three years. On top of that, Dariama

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<v Speaker 1>Day's Anthropic has made over three hundred billion dollars worth

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<v Speaker 1>of commitments, on top of a thirty five billion dollar

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<v Speaker 1>Apollo backed private credit deal where Google will sell its

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<v Speaker 1>TPUs to an SPV that would then install them in

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<v Speaker 1>Google data centers to for Anthropic to then rent from Google.

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<v Speaker 1>It it's so stupid. It's an insane monument to the desperate, manic,

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<v Speaker 1>capitalistic innovations the crown this wretched era of dog shit.

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<v Speaker 1>The demand isn't there, and some of you might. I know,

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<v Speaker 1>I'm going to get an email saying well, demand is

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<v Speaker 1>real Fromanthropic and open Ai. Yeah, they're selling twenty dollars

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<v Speaker 1>or forty dollars for a dollar. I imagine there's some demand.

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<v Speaker 1>Everyone's screaming at you to use AI everywhere. Wow, that's

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<v Speaker 1>demand that comes from social pressure, not actual value or

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<v Speaker 1>the utility. And really that demand isn't there. If Microsoft

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<v Speaker 1>isn't seeing it, nobody is seeing it. The only reason

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<v Speaker 1>that any neocloud is still alive is in vidious circular

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<v Speaker 1>financing rituals, a failure of ratings agencies, Open AI and

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<v Speaker 1>Anthropic and whatever weird oh bullshit it is that Mark

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<v Speaker 1>Zuckerberg is up to. There's a reason that the first

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<v Speaker 1>and only story about a customer for metas compute capacity

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<v Speaker 1>was Anthropic. There's nobody else, nobody else other than Anthropic

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<v Speaker 1>of course, open ai or the hyperscalers that are siphoning

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<v Speaker 1>off what remains of the AI labs venture capital funding

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<v Speaker 1>to sustain their own growth rates, every time, raising a

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<v Speaker 1>little bit more and a little bit higher at a

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<v Speaker 1>higher valuation, each time, demanding more and more money, hoping

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<v Speaker 1>to be able to dump it onto the public markets,

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<v Speaker 1>and the hope that they can perpetually con investors into

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<v Speaker 1>backing their deals. The reason that Microsoft and Google and

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<v Speaker 1>Amazon have been so squeerrely about their AI revenues is

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<v Speaker 1>that they know that they're pathetic compared to their capex

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<v Speaker 1>and near entirely dependent on two companies that Hyperscalers must

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<v Speaker 1>keep alive so that they can pay them. They can

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<v Speaker 1>get paid by them with the money that the hyperscaler

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<v Speaker 1>is handed to them. It's not good. And in twenty

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<v Speaker 1>twenty six alone, Google and Amazon have invested a combined

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<v Speaker 1>fifteen billion dollars in Anthropic and Amazon's invested to combined

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<v Speaker 1>fifty billion dollars in open Ai. And what's crazy about

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<v Speaker 1>that was thirty five billion dollars of that was contingent

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<v Speaker 1>on the IPO or AGI. Neither of those happened, which

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<v Speaker 1>heavily suggests that Amazon kind of knew that they needed

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<v Speaker 1>to pay open Ai so that open Ai could pay them.

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<v Speaker 1>And by the way, this is what you do when

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<v Speaker 1>you have no other options, no other viable customers, and

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<v Speaker 1>your core businesses are not growing at the rate necessary

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<v Speaker 1>to appease wall Stream. It's been sitting in plain sight

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<v Speaker 1>for years. Hyperscalers overbuilt capacity, funded their largest customers, incubating

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<v Speaker 1>them actually, and believed that both the opportunity of owning

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<v Speaker 1>their models and the underlying compute capacity would be some

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<v Speaker 1>sort of infinite money glitch, with each hyperscaler owning the

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<v Speaker 1>equivalent of both the next big cloud infrastructure and cloud

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<v Speaker 1>software plays, while also owning controlling stakes and creating dependency

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<v Speaker 1>from the two largest players in both Pretty easy, right,

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<v Speaker 1>anyone else building AI data centers believe that Microsoft, Google,

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<v Speaker 1>and Amazon would never be as foolish as to do

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<v Speaker 1>all of this without a cast iron guarantee that it

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<v Speaker 1>would turn into everything they'd promised, and that the capital

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<v Speaker 1>expenditures would be for certain worth it and have the

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<v Speaker 1>demand to back them that they would not continue spending

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<v Speaker 1>without that certainty. The reality is that Hyperscalers made a

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<v Speaker 1>huge mistake, both in what AI could do, how fast

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<v Speaker 1>Open Ai and Anthropic could grow, and in underestimating how

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<v Speaker 1>bad these businesses would get as they grew. It was

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<v Speaker 1>also obvious in retrospect from day one. Hyperscalers and most

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<v Speaker 1>companies in fact, refused to share their AI revenues, and

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<v Speaker 1>when they did so, they used deceptive run rates based

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<v Speaker 1>on non specific periods. I've said this for years. If

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<v Speaker 1>these companies had diverse and meaningful AI revenues, they would

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<v Speaker 1>be screaming about them from the rooftops. With clarity and vigor,

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<v Speaker 1>they would tell you segment by segment AI specific contribution

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<v Speaker 1>to revenue, they'd break out the costs. They would have

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<v Speaker 1>them in big font on investor presentations. Instead, Google is

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<v Speaker 1>telling us it processed three point two quadrillion tokens a month.

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<v Speaker 1>Who gives a fuck, Sunda, You're planning to spend one

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<v Speaker 1>hundred and eighty billion dollars this year, and we both

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<v Speaker 1>know that if you had the revenues that would remotely

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<v Speaker 1>justify spending that much, you'd include them. Did you make

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<v Speaker 1>a big mistake? Son? Dar? You can tell me, buddy.

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<v Speaker 1>I won't be mad at you. Investors will be, though,

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<v Speaker 1>They're gonna be furious, but look at the bright side.

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<v Speaker 1>At least you won't have to hear from that boring

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<v Speaker 1>of Demis Hassabis and hearing him prattle on and on

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<v Speaker 1>a bala. Oh what if the computer had the most

0:12:17.480 --> 0:12:20.199
<v Speaker 1>brilliant mind? What if we had agi in twenty one

0:12:20.240 --> 0:12:22.440
<v Speaker 1>minutes now he's going to go off and I assume

0:12:22.520 --> 0:12:26.600
<v Speaker 1>spend more time with his money. Anyway, one day everybody

0:12:26.640 --> 0:12:29.000
<v Speaker 1>is going to whack super surprised and say there was

0:12:29.000 --> 0:12:32.040
<v Speaker 1>no way to see this coming. Know that the signs

0:12:32.080 --> 0:12:34.720
<v Speaker 1>were there for years. They've stayed the same. The only

0:12:34.760 --> 0:12:37.280
<v Speaker 1>thing that's changed is the inflated value of open AI

0:12:37.360 --> 0:12:41.080
<v Speaker 1>and Anthropic and the ever escalating capex, fueling a semiconductor

0:12:41.120 --> 0:12:44.640
<v Speaker 1>bubble that erupted because nobody thought Hyperscalers would ever waste

0:12:44.720 --> 0:12:48.120
<v Speaker 1>one trillion dollars. At some point, the money runs out

0:12:48.120 --> 0:12:51.199
<v Speaker 1>to fund these two companies, at which point Hyperscalers will

0:12:51.200 --> 0:12:54.520
<v Speaker 1>have no way to further feed themselves in money. As

0:12:54.520 --> 0:12:58.000
<v Speaker 1>I've said before, the AI bubble is a syop, a melodrama,

0:12:58.120 --> 0:13:01.160
<v Speaker 1>a financial crisis, and a mask moment for the business

0:13:01.160 --> 0:13:04.400
<v Speaker 1>idiots that run the vast majority of the economy. It

0:13:04.520 --> 0:13:07.160
<v Speaker 1>is one of the strangest moments in history, and it

0:13:07.200 --> 0:13:11.000
<v Speaker 1>will only get stranger as things get more desperate. We

0:13:11.040 --> 0:13:13.920
<v Speaker 1>are seeing what happens when the rot economy demands that

0:13:13.960 --> 0:13:16.480
<v Speaker 1>we push the world's resources to their very limits, both

0:13:16.480 --> 0:13:19.600
<v Speaker 1>physically and fiscally, in pursuit of eternal growth, and what

0:13:19.760 --> 0:13:23.960
<v Speaker 1>happens when we discover what those limits actually are. None

0:13:23.960 --> 0:13:26.599
<v Speaker 1>of this was ever about technology, or good business or

0:13:26.640 --> 0:13:30.520
<v Speaker 1>anything other than creating the next growth engine for capital. Instead,

0:13:30.640 --> 0:13:34.599
<v Speaker 1>AI has become a parasitic presence culturally, financially, and ecologically,

0:13:34.880 --> 0:13:36.800
<v Speaker 1>and it will exhaust as much as it can in

0:13:36.840 --> 0:13:41.040
<v Speaker 1>its collapse. Nothing about this can be bailed out, because

0:13:41.040 --> 0:13:43.679
<v Speaker 1>the problem isn't that the money doesn't exist, just that

0:13:43.720 --> 0:13:47.640
<v Speaker 1>it doesn't exist naturally. A bailout cannot make growth restart

0:13:47.800 --> 0:13:51.400
<v Speaker 1>for Google, Microsoft, Meta, Amazon, or Oracle once it fully slows,

0:13:51.800 --> 0:13:53.480
<v Speaker 1>and based on the fact they've sunk more than a

0:13:53.480 --> 0:13:56.319
<v Speaker 1>trillion dollars of CAPEX into AI, I think they must

0:13:56.360 --> 0:13:59.040
<v Speaker 1>clearly see that growth is already or will die very

0:13:59.080 --> 0:14:02.559
<v Speaker 1>soon without an id quote doing AI, which mostly means

0:14:02.600 --> 0:14:05.640
<v Speaker 1>hoping anthropic and open AI pay them ever increasing amounts

0:14:05.679 --> 0:14:09.680
<v Speaker 1>of money every quarter forever. The US government cannot prop

0:14:09.720 --> 0:14:12.440
<v Speaker 1>up a stock market that accepts that AI's growth is

0:14:12.480 --> 0:14:16.000
<v Speaker 1>finite and outside of semiconductor companies and two subsidized AI

0:14:16.080 --> 0:14:18.959
<v Speaker 1>labs is tens of billions of dollars of demand in

0:14:19.000 --> 0:14:22.840
<v Speaker 1>the best case scenario. I realize how easy it is

0:14:22.880 --> 0:14:25.360
<v Speaker 1>to fall into the mindset that everything gets bailed out,

0:14:25.360 --> 0:14:28.120
<v Speaker 1>that the evil people always win, because we're so used

0:14:28.120 --> 0:14:32.120
<v Speaker 1>to seeing these evil, corrupt people escape accountability. In this case,

0:14:32.160 --> 0:14:34.800
<v Speaker 1>while I don't think anyone's going to prison. I think

0:14:34.800 --> 0:14:37.560
<v Speaker 1>these companies simply exhaust their resources at some point and

0:14:37.680 --> 0:14:41.280
<v Speaker 1>drop off. I think the era of hyperscale growth is ending,

0:14:41.320 --> 0:14:43.800
<v Speaker 1>and the only reason they're so desperately joining the no

0:14:43.920 --> 0:14:47.720
<v Speaker 1>IT loads, refused AI compute come dump is because they

0:14:47.760 --> 0:14:50.120
<v Speaker 1>know that the only way to keep growth going is

0:14:50.120 --> 0:14:52.640
<v Speaker 1>to hope they can drain the venture capital and debt

0:14:52.640 --> 0:14:55.840
<v Speaker 1>markets infinitely by proxy. I don't know if people are

0:14:55.840 --> 0:14:58.000
<v Speaker 1>gonna like that. They just said that I'll keep going

0:14:58.040 --> 0:15:02.560
<v Speaker 1>though anyway. There are no other hypergrowth markets left. That's

0:15:02.640 --> 0:15:06.080
<v Speaker 1>all this is about. So many numbers are going up

0:15:06.360 --> 0:15:08.880
<v Speaker 1>so much higher in the next few months. Then at

0:15:08.880 --> 0:15:11.240
<v Speaker 1>some point they'll stop going higher, and then they'll start

0:15:11.240 --> 0:15:12.760
<v Speaker 1>going lower, and then some of them will go to

0:15:12.840 --> 0:15:15.760
<v Speaker 1>zero or even become negative numbers because the only thing

0:15:15.800 --> 0:15:19.760
<v Speaker 1>that grows forever is cancer. This all may seem unthinkable

0:15:19.840 --> 0:15:23.040
<v Speaker 1>right now because Microsoft, Google, and Amazon numbers are going up,

0:15:23.440 --> 0:15:25.560
<v Speaker 1>but that's really only happening because of open AI and

0:15:25.600 --> 0:15:30.040
<v Speaker 1>anthropic Most didn't see this coming because it has involved

0:15:30.080 --> 0:15:33.160
<v Speaker 1>pushing back against one of the most gratuitous and excessive

0:15:33.200 --> 0:15:37.040
<v Speaker 1>marketing campaigns in history, involving actual reporters that are at

0:15:37.080 --> 0:15:41.440
<v Speaker 1>real outlets attacking and harassing people for daring to question

0:15:41.520 --> 0:15:44.680
<v Speaker 1>the powerful, and those people will be held accountable, mark

0:15:44.720 --> 0:15:47.840
<v Speaker 1>my words. But let's talk about who actually matters, and

0:15:47.840 --> 0:15:50.320
<v Speaker 1>that's you, and a lot of you have been here

0:15:50.440 --> 0:15:53.680
<v Speaker 1>with me for years, hearing me build these arguments, and

0:15:53.720 --> 0:15:55.880
<v Speaker 1>I appreciate the amount of support I hear from you

0:15:56.000 --> 0:15:59.440
<v Speaker 1>via a signal, the terminal, and on the subreddit an email.

0:15:59.480 --> 0:16:02.440
<v Speaker 1>Of course, you're all awesome, and you keep me going

0:16:02.480 --> 0:16:04.920
<v Speaker 1>when things are hard, when people are pressing back, when

0:16:04.960 --> 0:16:07.840
<v Speaker 1>people are genuinely horrible to me. I don't want to complain.

0:16:07.840 --> 0:16:09.400
<v Speaker 1>I get to do the best job in the world.

0:16:09.400 --> 0:16:11.640
<v Speaker 1>It fucking rocks to record this podcast and write the

0:16:11.640 --> 0:16:14.480
<v Speaker 1>news letter. It's the greatest job I've ever done. I

0:16:14.480 --> 0:16:17.160
<v Speaker 1>couldn't be happy at doing it. It's stressful, but I

0:16:17.240 --> 0:16:19.080
<v Speaker 1>keep going because of all of you, because I really

0:16:19.120 --> 0:16:21.680
<v Speaker 1>truly enjoy it. I'll be back next week, and to

0:16:21.800 --> 0:16:24.320
<v Speaker 1>quote Drill, I'll be calling out all the bullshit of society,

0:16:24.360 --> 0:16:26.640
<v Speaker 1>the smart way and against all odds. I'll do it

0:16:26.680 --> 0:16:28.600
<v Speaker 1>for free. Thank you for listening.