1 00:00:00,240 --> 00:00:15,440 Speaker 1: Ridiculous History is a production of I Heart Radio. Ye, 2 00:00:27,120 --> 00:00:30,520 Speaker 1: welcome to the show Ridiculous Historians. As always, thank you 3 00:00:30,680 --> 00:00:35,960 Speaker 1: so much for tuning in. Uh, the quarantine continues, but 4 00:00:36,159 --> 00:00:40,360 Speaker 1: so does this little show we call Ridiculous History. Hi. 5 00:00:40,440 --> 00:00:43,560 Speaker 1: I'm Ben. Hi, I'm no Ben. How's your core? Oh man, 6 00:00:43,840 --> 00:00:47,400 Speaker 1: my my my core at the core? Yes, my core 7 00:00:47,440 --> 00:00:51,520 Speaker 1: at the core is pretty great right now, I'm having 8 00:00:51,560 --> 00:00:53,800 Speaker 1: I'm having a cool time. I'm actually maybe taking it 9 00:00:53,880 --> 00:00:56,920 Speaker 1: off the grid road trip next week. Um, so I'll 10 00:00:57,000 --> 00:00:59,240 Speaker 1: update on that. How about you that core approved? Are 11 00:00:59,280 --> 00:01:01,040 Speaker 1: you doing it within your pod? Is that? Is that 12 00:01:01,120 --> 00:01:03,800 Speaker 1: just like you're kind of moving your core pod mobile 13 00:01:03,920 --> 00:01:06,280 Speaker 1: and then you're still gonna social distance from within your 14 00:01:06,760 --> 00:01:09,720 Speaker 1: your your mobile pod. Sorry, I'm using all these terms. 15 00:01:10,480 --> 00:01:12,840 Speaker 1: I don't know if I'll make it out of the car. Actually, 16 00:01:13,360 --> 00:01:16,120 Speaker 1: I just love road trips. You guys, know you and 17 00:01:16,280 --> 00:01:21,240 Speaker 1: super producer Casey pegram Uh know that I have that 18 00:01:21,520 --> 00:01:25,240 Speaker 1: US map with concentric circles around how long it takes 19 00:01:25,240 --> 00:01:28,160 Speaker 1: to drive somewhere and back. So this is weird, But 20 00:01:28,360 --> 00:01:30,880 Speaker 1: I might just drive to the ocean and then turn around. 21 00:01:31,080 --> 00:01:32,880 Speaker 1: Just admire the view from in the car as soon 22 00:01:32,920 --> 00:01:35,320 Speaker 1: as you hit the ocean. Don't keep going no, no, 23 00:01:35,360 --> 00:01:39,560 Speaker 1: don't look Okay, yeah that was so what about you? 24 00:01:39,680 --> 00:01:42,039 Speaker 1: What about you? Uh? It's good. I just as I 25 00:01:42,080 --> 00:01:44,679 Speaker 1: may have mentioned on the show before, I just moved 26 00:01:44,800 --> 00:01:48,200 Speaker 1: and I just got my first couch in the mail, which, 27 00:01:48,280 --> 00:01:50,000 Speaker 1: like it comes in two boxes. So when I get 28 00:01:50,000 --> 00:01:52,000 Speaker 1: done with this, I get to put together a couch, 29 00:01:52,440 --> 00:01:56,040 Speaker 1: and super producer Paul Decan Mission Control on our previous 30 00:01:56,320 --> 00:01:58,000 Speaker 1: recording session for Stuff that Don't Want you to Know, 31 00:01:58,160 --> 00:02:00,400 Speaker 1: told me I likely will only have to screw on 32 00:02:00,440 --> 00:02:05,280 Speaker 1: the legs. So I'm looking forward to a simple, uh 33 00:02:05,320 --> 00:02:08,560 Speaker 1: furniture assembly followed by lounging on my new couch, which 34 00:02:08,560 --> 00:02:11,280 Speaker 1: will make my home complete. The Life of Riley a 35 00:02:11,280 --> 00:02:14,360 Speaker 1: phrase I don't know the etymology of, but you should 36 00:02:14,360 --> 00:02:17,359 Speaker 1: do an episode about it. Etymology for the people. What's 37 00:02:17,360 --> 00:02:20,360 Speaker 1: the different we have? Idiomatic for the people, we should 38 00:02:20,400 --> 00:02:23,360 Speaker 1: do an offshoot called etymology for the people who are 39 00:02:23,360 --> 00:02:26,480 Speaker 1: not here to talk about etymology or idioms. We're here 40 00:02:26,480 --> 00:02:29,680 Speaker 1: to talk about badass women. That's right. That's right, Noel. 41 00:02:30,000 --> 00:02:33,760 Speaker 1: We are going to explore the life of one of 42 00:02:33,919 --> 00:02:36,720 Speaker 1: the coolest, most badass people that you and I have 43 00:02:36,800 --> 00:02:41,560 Speaker 1: learned about recently. Her name is Kate Warren. She is 44 00:02:41,600 --> 00:02:45,800 Speaker 1: a female Pinkerton detective. When our story takes place today. However, 45 00:02:46,440 --> 00:02:50,760 Speaker 1: Noel Casey, ridiculous historians. We are not delving into this 46 00:02:50,880 --> 00:02:55,919 Speaker 1: story alone. We have some help. We have someone classing 47 00:02:56,000 --> 00:02:59,320 Speaker 1: up our show today. We have with us one of 48 00:02:59,440 --> 00:03:04,680 Speaker 1: our friends and pure podcasters, Joe Piazza, best selling author, 49 00:03:04,960 --> 00:03:09,120 Speaker 1: award winning journalists, the host of Committed, as well as 50 00:03:09,200 --> 00:03:12,920 Speaker 1: the host of Fierce, a podcast that is all about 51 00:03:13,280 --> 00:03:17,480 Speaker 1: amazing badass women throughout history. Joe, thank you so much 52 00:03:17,520 --> 00:03:19,640 Speaker 1: for coming on the show today. Thank you for having me. 53 00:03:19,680 --> 00:03:20,799 Speaker 1: But I've got to say, I guess I have to 54 00:03:20,880 --> 00:03:22,760 Speaker 1: leave now because I thought I was coming for an 55 00:03:22,800 --> 00:03:26,240 Speaker 1: episode on idioms and etymology, So oh next time. No, No, Well, 56 00:03:26,280 --> 00:03:28,600 Speaker 1: these are ongoing series. You are always this is We 57 00:03:28,639 --> 00:03:30,600 Speaker 1: have an open door policy, kind of like comedy Bang 58 00:03:30,600 --> 00:03:33,000 Speaker 1: bang um, so you are always welcome to join us 59 00:03:33,040 --> 00:03:35,040 Speaker 1: talk about idioms and etymology. And that's not to say 60 00:03:35,080 --> 00:03:38,040 Speaker 1: that those things won't come up in today's conversation. But yeah, 61 00:03:38,160 --> 00:03:41,120 Speaker 1: I said badass women, not badass woman. We'll get to 62 00:03:41,160 --> 00:03:43,680 Speaker 1: the woman of today's episode, but tell us a little 63 00:03:43,720 --> 00:03:46,440 Speaker 1: bit about Fierce. There's the eight part series that you're 64 00:03:46,440 --> 00:03:49,760 Speaker 1: doing in connection with the Tribeca Film Festival, and I've 65 00:03:49,760 --> 00:03:52,280 Speaker 1: been hearing about it for a while now and it's 66 00:03:52,320 --> 00:03:54,400 Speaker 1: so excited to see it coming out in the world. Yeah, 67 00:03:54,440 --> 00:03:57,680 Speaker 1: it's great. We finally just released the eighth episode, and 68 00:03:57,880 --> 00:04:00,000 Speaker 1: like you said, it is in conjunction with the tribe 69 00:04:00,000 --> 00:04:03,320 Speaker 1: Eca Film Festival. It's actually the Tribeca Film Festival's first 70 00:04:03,560 --> 00:04:07,320 Speaker 1: big produced narrative podcast. And we spent more than a 71 00:04:07,400 --> 00:04:11,400 Speaker 1: year doing eight episodes about badass women that history has forgotten, 72 00:04:11,720 --> 00:04:13,640 Speaker 1: women that have not made it in your history books, 73 00:04:13,640 --> 00:04:16,320 Speaker 1: probably because a lot of men wrote a lot of history. 74 00:04:16,880 --> 00:04:19,560 Speaker 1: And they're all just they're they're really incredible, each one. 75 00:04:19,640 --> 00:04:23,760 Speaker 1: Working with Tribeca, you know, they made it a mini documentary, 76 00:04:23,800 --> 00:04:27,640 Speaker 1: so each one feels so rich and such such incredible 77 00:04:27,640 --> 00:04:30,120 Speaker 1: storytelling has gone into it that we just we love 78 00:04:30,200 --> 00:04:34,039 Speaker 1: all of these episodes so much and we want to 79 00:04:34,320 --> 00:04:37,600 Speaker 1: we want we want to take a page from your book, Joe, 80 00:04:37,680 --> 00:04:40,600 Speaker 1: and we've asked you on the show today with us 81 00:04:40,839 --> 00:04:45,440 Speaker 1: to help us explore the life of Kate Warren. Now, 82 00:04:45,800 --> 00:04:48,760 Speaker 1: you know our earlier conversations off air as we were 83 00:04:48,800 --> 00:04:51,800 Speaker 1: gearing up towards today's episode, we're kicking around a couple 84 00:04:51,880 --> 00:04:55,000 Speaker 1: of ideas of a person that we wanted to learn 85 00:04:55,040 --> 00:04:58,680 Speaker 1: more about, and you already knew. I think we were talking. 86 00:04:59,440 --> 00:05:02,360 Speaker 1: One of the first things you said is we were saying, so, 87 00:05:02,520 --> 00:05:05,840 Speaker 1: have you have you heard of Kate Warden? You were like, yes, yes, 88 00:05:05,880 --> 00:05:08,800 Speaker 1: I have, Yes. And there's also and we had such 89 00:05:08,839 --> 00:05:11,480 Speaker 1: good phone conversations when we're gearing up for this episode, 90 00:05:11,480 --> 00:05:14,440 Speaker 1: because there's just no there's no shortage of great women 91 00:05:14,680 --> 00:05:18,360 Speaker 1: that history has forgotten. But I'm I've been so obsessed 92 00:05:18,440 --> 00:05:21,720 Speaker 1: with Kate Warren. I think that her story ken and 93 00:05:21,800 --> 00:05:25,039 Speaker 1: should be a television series, a movie. I mean, it 94 00:05:25,160 --> 00:05:28,880 Speaker 1: is just it is ready made for the screen. And 95 00:05:28,920 --> 00:05:32,200 Speaker 1: so maybe you know, from our lips to Hollywood's ears, 96 00:05:32,520 --> 00:05:35,720 Speaker 1: someone will finally give her her cinematic do I really 97 00:05:35,760 --> 00:05:37,640 Speaker 1: hope so? And you're right. It does have all of 98 00:05:37,680 --> 00:05:41,480 Speaker 1: the kind of twists and turns of a really great film. 99 00:05:41,520 --> 00:05:44,400 Speaker 1: But it starts in uh, well it well, actually it starts, 100 00:05:44,480 --> 00:05:46,800 Speaker 1: you know, when Kate Warren was born, But really the 101 00:05:46,800 --> 00:05:50,400 Speaker 1: story begins in eighteen fifty six when um she walks 102 00:05:50,480 --> 00:05:54,480 Speaker 1: into the detective office of Alan Pinkerton. At the time, 103 00:05:54,480 --> 00:05:56,359 Speaker 1: it was just kind of like a one off, Like 104 00:05:56,440 --> 00:05:59,479 Speaker 1: we know, the Pinkerton Detective Agency became a thing worthy 105 00:05:59,560 --> 00:06:02,440 Speaker 1: episode odes and episodes unto itself and with some really 106 00:06:02,480 --> 00:06:05,120 Speaker 1: problematic history that we'll get into a little later as 107 00:06:05,120 --> 00:06:08,479 Speaker 1: it kind of evolved. But he immediately assumes kind of 108 00:06:08,480 --> 00:06:11,520 Speaker 1: a grizzled old dude, he was a Scottish immigrant who 109 00:06:11,760 --> 00:06:16,200 Speaker 1: founded this detective agency after being a policeman um in Chicago. 110 00:06:16,680 --> 00:06:21,080 Speaker 1: And he sees this plucky, young, attractive female walking into 111 00:06:21,120 --> 00:06:23,919 Speaker 1: his office and immediately assume she's there to apply for 112 00:06:24,000 --> 00:06:26,920 Speaker 1: secretarial work. And he's like, sorry, honey, we got no 113 00:06:27,000 --> 00:06:30,200 Speaker 1: openings in that department. She's like, excuse me, I'm actually 114 00:06:30,240 --> 00:06:34,039 Speaker 1: here to become a detective. It's so funny too. In 115 00:06:34,200 --> 00:06:36,599 Speaker 1: every account that we have, and we don't have that 116 00:06:36,640 --> 00:06:39,719 Speaker 1: many accounts about Kate Warren, but in every account we 117 00:06:39,760 --> 00:06:42,120 Speaker 1: do have, most of them written by Pinkerton or by 118 00:06:42,120 --> 00:06:45,360 Speaker 1: Pinkerton's other other p i s, they always make sure 119 00:06:45,400 --> 00:06:48,280 Speaker 1: to note how pretty she is. So I just want 120 00:06:48,279 --> 00:06:49,800 Speaker 1: to take note of that when we when we go 121 00:06:49,880 --> 00:06:53,359 Speaker 1: through her descriptions, it's it's always she was attractive, she 122 00:06:53,520 --> 00:06:56,800 Speaker 1: was a comely young woman, and I'm I'm curious what 123 00:06:56,800 --> 00:06:58,440 Speaker 1: would have happened if like kind of a you know, 124 00:06:58,720 --> 00:07:02,040 Speaker 1: homely born looking earl walks into that office and it's like, 125 00:07:02,120 --> 00:07:04,160 Speaker 1: I want to be one of your detectives. They've been like, 126 00:07:04,520 --> 00:07:07,479 Speaker 1: h not pretty enough. That's so funny that you say that, Ben, 127 00:07:07,560 --> 00:07:09,240 Speaker 1: I want to throw this. Do you remember we did 128 00:07:09,240 --> 00:07:13,680 Speaker 1: an episode on another badass woman, uh, Marm Mandelbaum, who 129 00:07:13,760 --> 00:07:16,480 Speaker 1: was like this crime boss in New York City and 130 00:07:16,520 --> 00:07:19,800 Speaker 1: she was an immigrants herself, and on the flip side 131 00:07:19,840 --> 00:07:22,640 Speaker 1: of that, all the accounts about her remarked on how 132 00:07:22,720 --> 00:07:28,320 Speaker 1: ugly she was. Yeah, that's that's that's an interesting case 133 00:07:28,360 --> 00:07:31,720 Speaker 1: because in Marm's case too, Uh, this is a little 134 00:07:31,720 --> 00:07:35,760 Speaker 1: bit of me just freestyle interpreting what those guys were writing. 135 00:07:35,880 --> 00:07:38,680 Speaker 1: In Marm's case, I read a lot of what they 136 00:07:38,680 --> 00:07:43,480 Speaker 1: were writing as uh, maybe fear disguised as mockery because 137 00:07:43,480 --> 00:07:45,800 Speaker 1: I'm pretty sure she could. I'm pretty sure she could 138 00:07:45,840 --> 00:07:48,360 Speaker 1: take all of them in a fight. But there's the 139 00:07:48,400 --> 00:07:52,080 Speaker 1: thing here, there's this constant thread, which unfortunately continues in 140 00:07:52,160 --> 00:07:58,160 Speaker 1: society today of underestimating women and having this weird dichotomy 141 00:07:58,360 --> 00:08:01,360 Speaker 1: that um, a lot of frankly, a lot of dudes 142 00:08:01,400 --> 00:08:06,000 Speaker 1: practice where they thought, Okay, this individual can not be 143 00:08:06,360 --> 00:08:10,800 Speaker 1: both attractive and intelligent, they can only choose one. And uh, 144 00:08:10,960 --> 00:08:13,920 Speaker 1: you know, and why aren't you married Kate Warren? Well, 145 00:08:13,960 --> 00:08:16,880 Speaker 1: I'm a widow, she said, which will explore I think 146 00:08:16,920 --> 00:08:19,520 Speaker 1: a little bit further. Um, I want to go back 147 00:08:19,560 --> 00:08:23,600 Speaker 1: to one point you made, Joe, which is uh fascinating 148 00:08:23,640 --> 00:08:28,080 Speaker 1: to me. There is enduring mystery of Kate Warren. So, Hollywood, 149 00:08:28,120 --> 00:08:30,480 Speaker 1: if you're listening, this might give you some latitude in 150 00:08:30,520 --> 00:08:34,520 Speaker 1: your adaptation. Use it wisely. Uh, like we know, you know, know, 151 00:08:34,720 --> 00:08:37,160 Speaker 1: you said. The story, I guess officially starts when she 152 00:08:37,240 --> 00:08:40,000 Speaker 1: was born, but we only really know the year that 153 00:08:40,120 --> 00:08:43,400 Speaker 1: she was born in eighteen thirty three, and even now 154 00:08:43,960 --> 00:08:47,400 Speaker 1: before she started working with Pinkerton, we don't know. We 155 00:08:47,480 --> 00:08:49,280 Speaker 1: still don't know very much about her. We know she 156 00:08:49,400 --> 00:08:52,240 Speaker 1: was very young when she came to this office. She 157 00:08:52,320 --> 00:08:55,920 Speaker 1: was only I believe twenty three years old, and she 158 00:08:55,960 --> 00:09:00,239 Speaker 1: had to kind of prove herself in a number of ways. 159 00:09:00,280 --> 00:09:03,280 Speaker 1: She had to she had to um go above and 160 00:09:03,320 --> 00:09:06,280 Speaker 1: beyond what a starting p I would normally do just 161 00:09:06,400 --> 00:09:09,199 Speaker 1: to get the respect that was probably accorded to dude 162 00:09:09,240 --> 00:09:11,920 Speaker 1: p I s From like day one, but first and 163 00:09:11,920 --> 00:09:14,160 Speaker 1: foremost her selling point was I can do things that 164 00:09:14,240 --> 00:09:16,600 Speaker 1: du p I s can't do. I can get places 165 00:09:16,760 --> 00:09:19,920 Speaker 1: that they can't get, and make deals and negotiate and 166 00:09:19,960 --> 00:09:23,440 Speaker 1: find out secrets that men just couldn't find out. And 167 00:09:23,480 --> 00:09:25,560 Speaker 1: that's totally fair. I mean she and that's what she 168 00:09:25,640 --> 00:09:28,040 Speaker 1: said to Pinkerton when she walked into his office. She's like, 169 00:09:28,480 --> 00:09:31,760 Speaker 1: your male p I s can't just walk up to 170 00:09:31,840 --> 00:09:35,600 Speaker 1: a woman and convince a woman to divulge her quote 171 00:09:35,640 --> 00:09:39,280 Speaker 1: unquote womanly secrets. It actually brings back I talked to 172 00:09:39,320 --> 00:09:41,319 Speaker 1: a lot of women police officers. I've been working on 173 00:09:41,360 --> 00:09:45,400 Speaker 1: another project about lady cops, and lady cops will tell you, 174 00:09:45,440 --> 00:09:47,440 Speaker 1: and even in this day and age, that they can 175 00:09:47,480 --> 00:09:51,160 Speaker 1: walk into a situation and immediately diffuse it just by 176 00:09:51,200 --> 00:09:53,480 Speaker 1: the fact that they have feminine energy as opposed to 177 00:09:53,520 --> 00:09:55,880 Speaker 1: male energy, which is, you know, just butting heads and 178 00:09:55,920 --> 00:09:59,000 Speaker 1: testosterone in a room. A woman can happens to be 179 00:09:59,000 --> 00:10:01,679 Speaker 1: able to calm someone own and can bring out things 180 00:10:01,679 --> 00:10:05,880 Speaker 1: in people that men can't. And so Kate, Kate, she 181 00:10:06,000 --> 00:10:08,080 Speaker 1: was so smart. She was not just smart as a 182 00:10:08,120 --> 00:10:11,280 Speaker 1: p I, but she had such people skills because she 183 00:10:11,360 --> 00:10:13,760 Speaker 1: knew what she had to tell Pinkerton to get that job, 184 00:10:14,040 --> 00:10:15,640 Speaker 1: and she knew she had to tell him, I have 185 00:10:15,679 --> 00:10:18,560 Speaker 1: a unique skill that you do not have, and you 186 00:10:18,559 --> 00:10:20,560 Speaker 1: can only have it if you hire me and bring 187 00:10:20,600 --> 00:10:23,640 Speaker 1: me on as an equal to some of these men. Absolutely, yes, 188 00:10:23,920 --> 00:10:27,199 Speaker 1: like a hundred hundred percents. Here, I would say that 189 00:10:27,280 --> 00:10:31,640 Speaker 1: her interpersonal brilliance, even as we'll see it, extends to 190 00:10:31,720 --> 00:10:35,480 Speaker 1: a bit of social engineering. Uh. We'll give you the 191 00:10:36,360 --> 00:10:39,800 Speaker 1: broad set of circumstances here in the narrative, then we'll 192 00:10:39,840 --> 00:10:43,720 Speaker 1: dive in. Because Kay Warren is not just famous for 193 00:10:43,920 --> 00:10:48,480 Speaker 1: being uh, the first female private detective in America. She's famous, 194 00:10:49,040 --> 00:10:53,640 Speaker 1: perhaps best known today for one case in particular, uh, 195 00:10:54,000 --> 00:10:58,320 Speaker 1: involving none other than Abraham Lincoln. Yes, that Abraham Lincoln, 196 00:10:58,360 --> 00:11:00,240 Speaker 1: the President. On the off chance you were thinking getting 197 00:11:00,240 --> 00:11:02,640 Speaker 1: about some other guy named Abraham Lincoln, I'm sure he's 198 00:11:02,640 --> 00:11:05,280 Speaker 1: out there, But the one we're talking about was president 199 00:11:05,320 --> 00:11:10,679 Speaker 1: of the United States. She helped prevent an assassination against him. 200 00:11:11,080 --> 00:11:15,719 Speaker 1: This this takes place with a lot of twist and turns, um, 201 00:11:15,760 --> 00:11:20,000 Speaker 1: But I think maybe we work towards there by. I 202 00:11:20,040 --> 00:11:22,560 Speaker 1: don't know, why should we start with what little we 203 00:11:22,640 --> 00:11:25,040 Speaker 1: do know about her early life. Yeah, I think that's 204 00:11:25,040 --> 00:11:27,200 Speaker 1: exactly the right way to handle this. We don't want 205 00:11:27,200 --> 00:11:30,240 Speaker 1: to spoil any of our big Hollywood moments here since 206 00:11:30,240 --> 00:11:31,920 Speaker 1: we were trying to set this up Hollywood, we want 207 00:11:31,920 --> 00:11:33,840 Speaker 1: you to be listening so that you you buy this 208 00:11:33,920 --> 00:11:35,280 Speaker 1: property or whatever do you have to buy. It is 209 00:11:35,320 --> 00:11:37,520 Speaker 1: public domain. They could probably do with it whatever they want, 210 00:11:37,640 --> 00:11:39,880 Speaker 1: but it's true they do have some leeway because we 211 00:11:39,920 --> 00:11:42,520 Speaker 1: don't know a whole heck of a lot about her 212 00:11:42,559 --> 00:11:45,559 Speaker 1: early life. What we do know is that she was 213 00:11:45,640 --> 00:11:49,280 Speaker 1: born in Aaron, New York in eighteen thirty or eighteen 214 00:11:49,320 --> 00:11:52,240 Speaker 1: thirty three, depends on where who you asked. It's a 215 00:11:52,320 --> 00:11:55,079 Speaker 1: pretty widespread there, uh. And she came from like a 216 00:11:55,280 --> 00:11:57,000 Speaker 1: I don't know, let's call it a lower in the 217 00:11:57,080 --> 00:12:00,080 Speaker 1: middle class family. Again where we're working in kind of 218 00:12:00,280 --> 00:12:05,160 Speaker 1: ranges here. Um, she was not educated to the fullest 219 00:12:05,200 --> 00:12:09,600 Speaker 1: extent um. She wanted to become an actress. She actually 220 00:12:09,640 --> 00:12:12,160 Speaker 1: kind of makes sense considering that later she became kind 221 00:12:12,160 --> 00:12:15,080 Speaker 1: of known for these disguises and from being able to 222 00:12:15,120 --> 00:12:17,520 Speaker 1: kind of ingratiate yourself, and as we know from cop 223 00:12:17,600 --> 00:12:21,000 Speaker 1: movies of working undercover, there's a lot of acting chops 224 00:12:21,040 --> 00:12:23,240 Speaker 1: that go into that to kind of, you know, maintain 225 00:12:23,280 --> 00:12:25,840 Speaker 1: that character so that that all checks out. Um. But 226 00:12:25,960 --> 00:12:29,400 Speaker 1: they didn't really support it. Uh, so she gave up 227 00:12:29,400 --> 00:12:33,959 Speaker 1: on pursuing acting. Um. And she always described herself as 228 00:12:34,000 --> 00:12:36,680 Speaker 1: a widow. And Joe, you had a really interesting point 229 00:12:36,720 --> 00:12:40,439 Speaker 1: about this. Uh, there's some reports that her husband died 230 00:12:40,840 --> 00:12:43,320 Speaker 1: in a car accident, but I kind of like your 231 00:12:43,360 --> 00:12:46,280 Speaker 1: theory better. Yeah, well, we don't know anything about her husband. 232 00:12:46,400 --> 00:12:49,280 Speaker 1: She just she pronounced herself a widow, describes herself as 233 00:12:49,320 --> 00:12:52,319 Speaker 1: a widow. There's no records of it. And I think 234 00:12:52,440 --> 00:12:55,600 Speaker 1: that at the time as a or twenty six year 235 00:12:55,600 --> 00:12:58,320 Speaker 1: old woman, and you know, it could be any of those. Uh. 236 00:12:58,360 --> 00:13:00,880 Speaker 1: It was a lot more respectable to be a widow 237 00:13:00,960 --> 00:13:03,040 Speaker 1: to have had a husband than just to be a 238 00:13:03,080 --> 00:13:05,520 Speaker 1: woman who didn't want to be in a marriage. She 239 00:13:05,559 --> 00:13:07,360 Speaker 1: didn't want to be married, who wanted to be free 240 00:13:07,400 --> 00:13:09,120 Speaker 1: to live her life the way she wanted to live it. 241 00:13:09,600 --> 00:13:12,000 Speaker 1: So by saying that you had a husband who was 242 00:13:12,240 --> 00:13:14,040 Speaker 1: out of the picture, I think it gave her a 243 00:13:14,080 --> 00:13:18,560 Speaker 1: lot more freedom of movement around the world. I think 244 00:13:18,600 --> 00:13:22,439 Speaker 1: that's such a brilliant point. I mean, both the point 245 00:13:22,480 --> 00:13:26,960 Speaker 1: about acting and then also the point about you know, Joe, 246 00:13:27,400 --> 00:13:30,360 Speaker 1: when when we think about it, it's kind of like 247 00:13:30,480 --> 00:13:33,880 Speaker 1: she's always undercover at that point, you know, she's got 248 00:13:33,920 --> 00:13:38,520 Speaker 1: this cover story, this deceased husband. As as you said, 249 00:13:38,600 --> 00:13:43,520 Speaker 1: no it does seem that her her story begins right 250 00:13:43,640 --> 00:13:46,360 Speaker 1: or enters. It's it's big ticket act when she goes 251 00:13:46,520 --> 00:13:52,160 Speaker 1: into the Pinkerton National Detective Agency there in Chicago and says, 252 00:13:52,679 --> 00:13:54,840 Speaker 1: I want to be a detective, like you said, Joe. 253 00:13:54,920 --> 00:13:56,880 Speaker 1: She she lays it out. She says, I can do 254 00:13:57,000 --> 00:14:01,480 Speaker 1: things your other detectives can't. Um, you'd be lucky to 255 00:14:01,520 --> 00:14:06,720 Speaker 1: have me, basically, and luckily Alan Pinkerton was smart enough 256 00:14:07,160 --> 00:14:11,480 Speaker 1: to agree. But maybe we can talk a little bit again. 257 00:14:11,640 --> 00:14:14,960 Speaker 1: You know, you could do an entire series on Pinkerton, Um, 258 00:14:14,960 --> 00:14:17,520 Speaker 1: but maybe we could talk a little bit about what 259 00:14:17,679 --> 00:14:20,760 Speaker 1: Pinkerton is. I think a lot of UM fans of 260 00:14:20,760 --> 00:14:25,040 Speaker 1: film and fiction have run into mensions of Pinkerton, and 261 00:14:25,240 --> 00:14:28,720 Speaker 1: sometimes they're surprised to learn it was a real thing. 262 00:14:28,840 --> 00:14:31,760 Speaker 1: As you said, Noel, in the eighteen fifties, Allan Pinkerton, 263 00:14:32,360 --> 00:14:38,480 Speaker 1: Scottish immigrant, opened this detective agency, and the reputation of 264 00:14:38,480 --> 00:14:43,880 Speaker 1: this spread pretty quickly because everybody began to understand that Pinkerton, 265 00:14:44,000 --> 00:14:47,240 Speaker 1: for one reason or another, could get some things done 266 00:14:47,840 --> 00:14:52,280 Speaker 1: that law enforcement could not write. Yeah, and whether you know, 267 00:14:53,200 --> 00:14:54,960 Speaker 1: and and honestly, it's it's kind of a by any 268 00:14:55,000 --> 00:14:59,960 Speaker 1: means necessary situation, especially when we start to see there 269 00:15:00,320 --> 00:15:05,840 Speaker 1: later evolution into like strike breaking and much more politically 270 00:15:05,920 --> 00:15:10,000 Speaker 1: motivated uh nastiness. Um, and that's not what today's episode 271 00:15:10,000 --> 00:15:12,480 Speaker 1: is about. This is about. And that also, to be fair, 272 00:15:12,680 --> 00:15:16,080 Speaker 1: was the post Alan Pinkerton period where his son's kind 273 00:15:16,080 --> 00:15:19,520 Speaker 1: of dismantled a lot of the early more reputable services 274 00:15:19,520 --> 00:15:21,720 Speaker 1: that they provided and became much more this kind of 275 00:15:21,760 --> 00:15:25,040 Speaker 1: like goon squad for like big business. But that's an 276 00:15:25,040 --> 00:15:27,640 Speaker 1: episode into itself. Uh. First of all, it's gotta point 277 00:15:27,640 --> 00:15:31,440 Speaker 1: out Pinkerton by far the superior Wheezer album. Um, fight me, 278 00:15:31,640 --> 00:15:35,200 Speaker 1: It's fine, It's way better than the Blue album. I 279 00:15:35,200 --> 00:15:37,040 Speaker 1: Will I Will Die on this Hill. What do you 280 00:15:37,040 --> 00:15:40,040 Speaker 1: think of research, Casey Pegram Pinkerton or Blue album? No, 281 00:15:40,240 --> 00:15:42,520 Speaker 1: definitely Pinkerton, although I'm not like a huge Weezer fan, 282 00:15:42,600 --> 00:15:44,880 Speaker 1: but um, of those two, I would go Pinkerton. Yeah, 283 00:15:45,000 --> 00:15:48,680 Speaker 1: got it, Casey on the case, I can't believe you're 284 00:15:48,720 --> 00:15:50,800 Speaker 1: not gonna ask Joe or me. You gotta ask everybody. 285 00:15:50,920 --> 00:15:53,400 Speaker 1: Casey is our cultural and lays on. Okay, I gotta 286 00:15:53,440 --> 00:15:55,040 Speaker 1: he's gotta have some things that are just for him. 287 00:15:55,040 --> 00:15:56,960 Speaker 1: I feel like I already chimed in. No, I'm I'm 288 00:15:57,000 --> 00:16:02,680 Speaker 1: fully team Pinkerton out. Think we're all teamed Pinkerton because 289 00:16:02,720 --> 00:16:07,000 Speaker 1: we're decent human beings, you know what I mean. Okay, 290 00:16:08,320 --> 00:16:10,680 Speaker 1: Rivers is listening. He's gonna be so mad. He loves 291 00:16:10,720 --> 00:16:15,600 Speaker 1: the Blue album. Rivers only listens to his demos anything else. 292 00:16:16,440 --> 00:16:19,320 Speaker 1: That's an odd guy. For a while, Rivers was following 293 00:16:19,320 --> 00:16:22,920 Speaker 1: me on Twitter, which was probably an accident. But but 294 00:16:22,960 --> 00:16:25,280 Speaker 1: maybe we maybe we can get this Pinkerton love to 295 00:16:25,360 --> 00:16:27,640 Speaker 1: him somehow can we get we need to get make 296 00:16:27,680 --> 00:16:31,160 Speaker 1: them make another Pinkerton. Rivers like, he's like, he's so 297 00:16:31,200 --> 00:16:34,200 Speaker 1: tired of hearing that. Look, guys, I'm an artist. I 298 00:16:34,280 --> 00:16:36,840 Speaker 1: follow my my bliss. That's what I'm gonna I'm gonna 299 00:16:36,840 --> 00:16:38,520 Speaker 1: do what I'm gonna do. Okay, whether it's pork and 300 00:16:38,600 --> 00:16:41,320 Speaker 1: Beans or Island in the Sun, not even the suns 301 00:16:41,360 --> 00:16:44,400 Speaker 1: of Fine Song, We're not here to talk about Rivers Cuomo, though, 302 00:16:44,560 --> 00:16:52,080 Speaker 1: we're here to talk about the original Pinkerton. I first 303 00:16:52,120 --> 00:16:55,520 Speaker 1: heard of Pinkerton as a detective agency in the show Deadwood, 304 00:16:55,720 --> 00:16:57,360 Speaker 1: and by that time they're already kind of the bad 305 00:16:57,400 --> 00:17:00,680 Speaker 1: guys because they're working for her. US two is like 306 00:17:00,720 --> 00:17:05,479 Speaker 1: this terrible oil magnate, kind of conglomo, you know, villain, 307 00:17:06,160 --> 00:17:08,760 Speaker 1: and they're you know, trying to rob people of their 308 00:17:08,800 --> 00:17:11,520 Speaker 1: claims to oil and gold rather not goil and all 309 00:17:11,600 --> 00:17:14,280 Speaker 1: that stuff. But before that they really were just good 310 00:17:14,280 --> 00:17:18,000 Speaker 1: old fashioned detectives. They would solve cases, things like crimes 311 00:17:18,080 --> 00:17:21,199 Speaker 1: that the people had stolen money. They would figure out who, 312 00:17:21,280 --> 00:17:23,240 Speaker 1: you know, where they had put it, and they would 313 00:17:23,520 --> 00:17:26,919 Speaker 1: use subterfuge and like you know, often deception, but they 314 00:17:26,920 --> 00:17:29,480 Speaker 1: would get the job done in ways that regular law enforcement, 315 00:17:29,480 --> 00:17:31,840 Speaker 1: to your point, Bend just couldn't quite do. Um and 316 00:17:31,960 --> 00:17:34,400 Speaker 1: it just really spread like wildfire. There were so good 317 00:17:34,400 --> 00:17:38,760 Speaker 1: at gathering intelligence they actually became sort of the template 318 00:17:38,880 --> 00:17:41,760 Speaker 1: for like the Secret Service and a lot of really 319 00:17:41,840 --> 00:17:46,800 Speaker 1: high level law enforcement like the FBI. So I'm gonna 320 00:17:46,880 --> 00:17:49,520 Speaker 1: try not to continually be pointing out what I think 321 00:17:49,560 --> 00:17:52,320 Speaker 1: you're very clearly awesome moments that should go in the 322 00:17:52,320 --> 00:17:55,880 Speaker 1: film or the series, you know, if we adapted for streaming, 323 00:17:56,240 --> 00:17:59,600 Speaker 1: uh to this point, to this point that you made, Joe, 324 00:18:00,119 --> 00:18:02,280 Speaker 1: is this amazing moment. This is one of the things 325 00:18:02,280 --> 00:18:05,040 Speaker 1: that we do know for sure about Kate Warren. When 326 00:18:05,080 --> 00:18:08,400 Speaker 1: she goes into the Pinkerton office. Uh, the guy does 327 00:18:08,480 --> 00:18:11,560 Speaker 1: assume that she's there for secretarial work, and she so 328 00:18:11,640 --> 00:18:15,000 Speaker 1: quickly corrects him and says, you have placed an ad 329 00:18:15,240 --> 00:18:19,160 Speaker 1: looking for new hires. I came to be hired as 330 00:18:19,200 --> 00:18:22,439 Speaker 1: a private detective. Uh. And then you know, as you 331 00:18:22,480 --> 00:18:25,160 Speaker 1: mentioned before, Joe, she's saying, I can do so many 332 00:18:25,200 --> 00:18:28,439 Speaker 1: things that you can't do. I think she also pointed 333 00:18:28,440 --> 00:18:32,120 Speaker 1: out that she can take advantage of the fact that 334 00:18:32,160 --> 00:18:35,440 Speaker 1: a lot of men tend to try to brag around her, 335 00:18:35,600 --> 00:18:39,040 Speaker 1: so she can kind of tease out secrets that they 336 00:18:39,160 --> 00:18:41,199 Speaker 1: otherwise shut down about. I love it. I mean she 337 00:18:41,240 --> 00:18:44,560 Speaker 1: walked in and she used the fact that Pinkerton underestimated 338 00:18:44,560 --> 00:18:46,640 Speaker 1: her from the second she walked in the door, right, 339 00:18:46,680 --> 00:18:48,760 Speaker 1: She's like, you just thought I was a secretary. You 340 00:18:48,840 --> 00:18:51,560 Speaker 1: underestimated me the second you looked at my pretty face 341 00:18:52,200 --> 00:18:56,080 Speaker 1: and used that and said, everyone's gonna underestimate me. Every 342 00:18:56,080 --> 00:18:57,920 Speaker 1: man that I talked to is going to underestimate me, 343 00:18:57,960 --> 00:19:00,000 Speaker 1: and so of course they're going to divulge their secrets. 344 00:19:00,280 --> 00:19:02,119 Speaker 1: Of course, I'm going to be able to infiltrate their 345 00:19:02,160 --> 00:19:06,679 Speaker 1: networks because people ignore women, people underestimate women, and that's 346 00:19:06,760 --> 00:19:09,840 Speaker 1: when a detective can can get the good stuff. It's 347 00:19:09,880 --> 00:19:13,120 Speaker 1: a really good pitch, I'll tell you. And he went 348 00:19:13,160 --> 00:19:15,240 Speaker 1: for it. He bought it. He's like, okay, yep, so 349 00:19:15,800 --> 00:19:19,879 Speaker 1: well reluctantly, because although he was a smart guy, he 350 00:19:20,040 --> 00:19:22,720 Speaker 1: was still, you know, he was still very much an 351 00:19:22,760 --> 00:19:26,879 Speaker 1: adherent to the misogyny of the time, right because he said, okay, 352 00:19:27,000 --> 00:19:30,240 Speaker 1: all right, okay, Warren, if that is your real name, 353 00:19:30,280 --> 00:19:32,800 Speaker 1: you got me on that one. Well played, but I'm 354 00:19:32,840 --> 00:19:36,760 Speaker 1: not wholly convinced. He specifically said it is not the 355 00:19:36,800 --> 00:19:41,560 Speaker 1: custom to employ women detectives. I'm that's not his real voice. 356 00:19:41,640 --> 00:19:44,480 Speaker 1: I just can't do a respectable Scottish accent, so just 357 00:19:44,640 --> 00:19:47,720 Speaker 1: picture the Scottish accent. But that's what he said. And 358 00:19:48,480 --> 00:19:52,520 Speaker 1: it actually took her several meetings with this guy before 359 00:19:52,720 --> 00:19:56,960 Speaker 1: he finally acceded and hired her. He would go on 360 00:19:57,080 --> 00:20:00,000 Speaker 1: to say that he was one of the best employee 361 00:20:00,040 --> 00:20:02,840 Speaker 1: he's he ever worked with. Yeah, I don't know. The 362 00:20:02,960 --> 00:20:05,040 Speaker 1: lower version of it is more fun to me that 363 00:20:05,119 --> 00:20:07,159 Speaker 1: he hired her on site. But yeah, I guess it 364 00:20:07,200 --> 00:20:09,720 Speaker 1: does make sense that she had to kind of convince 365 00:20:09,800 --> 00:20:11,959 Speaker 1: him a little further. But it's true. I mean, he 366 00:20:12,040 --> 00:20:15,239 Speaker 1: bragged about her, uh to the day he died, and 367 00:20:15,240 --> 00:20:17,399 Speaker 1: then in his book and he even I think wrote 368 00:20:17,400 --> 00:20:20,520 Speaker 1: her in to the thank you's in his book about 369 00:20:20,560 --> 00:20:23,679 Speaker 1: his kind of story career. But um, yeah, let's talk 370 00:20:23,720 --> 00:20:25,760 Speaker 1: about kind of her early days and how she sort 371 00:20:25,760 --> 00:20:30,639 Speaker 1: of started getting uh some attraction as, let's be honest, 372 00:20:30,800 --> 00:20:36,320 Speaker 1: the country's first female private investigator. What's so interesting to 373 00:20:36,359 --> 00:20:39,520 Speaker 1: me is just how taken with her Pinkerton seems and 374 00:20:39,600 --> 00:20:41,760 Speaker 1: the way it took him a while for him to 375 00:20:41,800 --> 00:20:44,160 Speaker 1: come over to team Kate. Oh. And I also want 376 00:20:44,200 --> 00:20:46,959 Speaker 1: to say, in terms of her being an actress and 377 00:20:47,040 --> 00:20:50,480 Speaker 1: having all these covers, isn't Kate Warren just like the 378 00:20:50,520 --> 00:20:53,800 Speaker 1: perfect stage name? Like I feel like it might not 379 00:20:53,920 --> 00:20:58,800 Speaker 1: be her real name. It's a little bit too perfect. Yeah, 380 00:20:58,800 --> 00:21:00,800 Speaker 1: and it's also pretty adapt boll. I heard she would 381 00:21:00,800 --> 00:21:05,760 Speaker 1: go by like Kitty Warren or Cat Warner. I'm picturing 382 00:21:05,760 --> 00:21:08,080 Speaker 1: it in her fake southern accent she later puts on 383 00:21:08,119 --> 00:21:09,920 Speaker 1: in some of her other in some of her capers, 384 00:21:09,960 --> 00:21:13,720 Speaker 1: and it's like, hello, I'm Catherine Warren right, like she can. 385 00:21:13,960 --> 00:21:17,080 Speaker 1: That name can be adapted to anything. But Pinkerton really 386 00:21:17,240 --> 00:21:20,199 Speaker 1: did gush over her. I mean one of one of 387 00:21:20,200 --> 00:21:21,960 Speaker 1: the things he said about her was quote she was 388 00:21:22,000 --> 00:21:30,440 Speaker 1: a brilliant conversationalist and when so disposed, could be quite vivacious. Okay, 389 00:21:29,720 --> 00:21:32,119 Speaker 1: what does he mean in this context? Is that just 390 00:21:32,160 --> 00:21:35,760 Speaker 1: mean like, I'm sorry, my mind is going to like 391 00:21:35,840 --> 00:21:38,240 Speaker 1: you know again, Like in his original description of her, 392 00:21:38,480 --> 00:21:42,199 Speaker 1: he referred to her as slender with fiery eyes and 393 00:21:42,600 --> 00:21:46,399 Speaker 1: a delicacy of movement. Vivacious, doesn't that just mean like 394 00:21:46,480 --> 00:21:49,960 Speaker 1: full of spirit? Kind of? It's just like he's always 395 00:21:49,960 --> 00:21:51,960 Speaker 1: so surprised, right, it's like, oh my god, look the 396 00:21:51,960 --> 00:21:56,760 Speaker 1: woman can walk and talk and she's brilliant. It's true. Yeah, 397 00:21:56,960 --> 00:22:03,440 Speaker 1: vivacious really just means very energetic, lively or animated. Um. 398 00:22:03,560 --> 00:22:06,080 Speaker 1: But in this case, and I think in the time 399 00:22:06,520 --> 00:22:09,879 Speaker 1: that this guy's writing, vivacious as a word is is 400 00:22:10,480 --> 00:22:15,879 Speaker 1: pretty much used to describe women that people think are attractive. 401 00:22:16,160 --> 00:22:18,959 Speaker 1: And it goes back to your point, Joe, about how 402 00:22:19,320 --> 00:22:22,320 Speaker 1: so many of the people writing who were men are 403 00:22:22,480 --> 00:22:28,120 Speaker 1: are like, Okay, she did these amazing things and also vivacious. 404 00:22:28,160 --> 00:22:31,679 Speaker 1: Am I right, and now they look kind of I 405 00:22:31,680 --> 00:22:34,879 Speaker 1: think the focus on that is kind of my opic. Uh, 406 00:22:35,240 --> 00:22:37,840 Speaker 1: and it makes it makes them uh, I don't know. 407 00:22:37,920 --> 00:22:41,600 Speaker 1: It makes it clear to me who the most intelligent 408 00:22:41,920 --> 00:22:45,720 Speaker 1: Pinkerton agent was, and it was it was probably Kate Warren, 409 00:22:46,200 --> 00:22:49,000 Speaker 1: probably Kate Warren. Um, do you guys want to I 410 00:22:49,080 --> 00:22:50,760 Speaker 1: kind of want to jump to some of our cases 411 00:22:50,800 --> 00:22:53,920 Speaker 1: because some of her early cases were really good, and 412 00:22:54,280 --> 00:22:57,280 Speaker 1: in these early cases, she proved that her skill set 413 00:22:57,600 --> 00:23:00,359 Speaker 1: was completely unique to the Pinkerton Agency at time, or 414 00:23:00,400 --> 00:23:02,680 Speaker 1: skill set as a woman, and also her skill set 415 00:23:02,760 --> 00:23:05,720 Speaker 1: as just a smart freaking human being, Like you know, 416 00:23:05,840 --> 00:23:08,240 Speaker 1: she's like, yeah, someone she she was also just clearly 417 00:23:08,280 --> 00:23:12,560 Speaker 1: incredibly intelligent and incredibly emotionally intelligent because she was able 418 00:23:12,600 --> 00:23:14,520 Speaker 1: to get these people to open up to her. So 419 00:23:15,000 --> 00:23:17,320 Speaker 1: the case that I really like is the one where 420 00:23:17,600 --> 00:23:21,120 Speaker 1: she made friends with the wife of a suspected murderer 421 00:23:21,160 --> 00:23:25,280 Speaker 1: to try to get the evidence against him. Yeah, that's so, 422 00:23:25,560 --> 00:23:29,919 Speaker 1: that's so weird and such a brilliant way to approach this, 423 00:23:30,040 --> 00:23:32,960 Speaker 1: because you know, you would think that standard operating procedure 424 00:23:33,359 --> 00:23:37,560 Speaker 1: for the Pinkerton folks would be just to go directly 425 00:23:37,680 --> 00:23:42,400 Speaker 1: to like the social network of the suspected murderer, right, 426 00:23:42,480 --> 00:23:46,000 Speaker 1: and then come down hard as nails. But sometimes the 427 00:23:46,119 --> 00:23:50,600 Speaker 1: carrot works better than the stick, exactly. And this strategy 428 00:23:50,640 --> 00:23:54,359 Speaker 1: of becoming someone's friends the honey over the vinegar, they 429 00:23:54,400 --> 00:23:57,160 Speaker 1: carry it over the stick. Uh. This is something that 430 00:23:57,240 --> 00:24:01,040 Speaker 1: she employs more than once. Let's maybe we could talk 431 00:24:01,080 --> 00:24:05,720 Speaker 1: a little bit about the case of the Adams Express 432 00:24:05,840 --> 00:24:09,320 Speaker 1: Company theft. That's right, this guy named Nathan Moroney was 433 00:24:09,359 --> 00:24:15,359 Speaker 1: the manager of the company's office in Montgomery, Alabama. And um, 434 00:24:15,520 --> 00:24:20,800 Speaker 1: he was very highly suspected of having made off with 435 00:24:20,920 --> 00:24:25,200 Speaker 1: some some serious cash from that office. And so they 436 00:24:25,280 --> 00:24:28,199 Speaker 1: hired Warren to kind of get to the bottom of us. 437 00:24:28,240 --> 00:24:31,320 Speaker 1: As she put on, you know, a little bit of 438 00:24:31,320 --> 00:24:34,639 Speaker 1: a disguise, uh, and then changed her name to Mrs 439 00:24:34,680 --> 00:24:39,199 Speaker 1: Potter and became friends with the guys, with the guy's wife. 440 00:24:39,440 --> 00:24:41,120 Speaker 1: Of course, she made friends with the guy's wife because 441 00:24:41,160 --> 00:24:43,520 Speaker 1: of course the guy's wife knows where the money is. Um. 442 00:24:43,600 --> 00:24:46,280 Speaker 1: And I and I love the student in Mrs Potter, right, 443 00:24:46,320 --> 00:24:49,280 Speaker 1: It's so innocuous, you know, It's like, oh, well, Mrs 444 00:24:49,280 --> 00:24:52,360 Speaker 1: Potter would never you know, I would never betray me. 445 00:24:52,760 --> 00:24:56,359 Speaker 1: It's Mrs Potter, I know her look at Mrs Potter 446 00:24:56,400 --> 00:25:00,359 Speaker 1: would never betray anyone except she does. And because Mrs 447 00:25:00,400 --> 00:25:04,120 Speaker 1: Moroney totally knew not only that her husband had taken 448 00:25:04,160 --> 00:25:06,399 Speaker 1: the cash. Of course he took the cash, but she 449 00:25:06,520 --> 00:25:09,320 Speaker 1: also knew where he had hidden it, and she led 450 00:25:09,320 --> 00:25:13,399 Speaker 1: the detectives all the way to Jenkintown, Pennsylvania. Nathan Maroney 451 00:25:13,520 --> 00:25:16,480 Speaker 1: was convicted and nearly all of the money was recovered. 452 00:25:16,760 --> 00:25:20,280 Speaker 1: That's right. And at this point even Pinkerton himself had to, 453 00:25:20,520 --> 00:25:25,000 Speaker 1: you know, give his detective her do you know real 454 00:25:25,080 --> 00:25:27,960 Speaker 1: recognized his real here and he he wrote later, the 455 00:25:28,040 --> 00:25:30,760 Speaker 1: victory was complete, but her faculties have been strained to 456 00:25:30,800 --> 00:25:34,240 Speaker 1: the utmost and accomplishing it, and she felt completely exhausted. 457 00:25:34,480 --> 00:25:37,919 Speaker 1: She had the proud satisfaction of knowing that to a 458 00:25:38,000 --> 00:25:41,239 Speaker 1: woman belonged to the honors of the day. So if 459 00:25:41,280 --> 00:25:44,320 Speaker 1: we unpack this, it feels like he's being a little 460 00:25:44,359 --> 00:25:48,440 Speaker 1: bit more reluctant than he should be in admitting that 461 00:25:48,640 --> 00:25:53,040 Speaker 1: his detective Kate Warren, had done things that other detectives, 462 00:25:53,080 --> 00:25:56,040 Speaker 1: even in Pinkerton, could not. This is just like one 463 00:25:56,119 --> 00:25:59,280 Speaker 1: of her many adventures. And look, maybe I've watched too 464 00:25:59,400 --> 00:26:03,000 Speaker 1: much surprise Annos, But there's a part of me that 465 00:26:03,080 --> 00:26:07,080 Speaker 1: finds these tactics like really cold blood where you're like, 466 00:26:07,320 --> 00:26:11,600 Speaker 1: you know, like when Adrianna she becomes friends with that uh, 467 00:26:11,640 --> 00:26:14,800 Speaker 1: that FBI agent who poses is like, you know, like 468 00:26:14,840 --> 00:26:18,120 Speaker 1: a big haired New Jersey kind of socialite, and that 469 00:26:18,160 --> 00:26:20,159 Speaker 1: moment when the rug gets pulled out from under or 470 00:26:20,320 --> 00:26:22,880 Speaker 1: she's like, you've been lying to me this whole time. 471 00:26:22,960 --> 00:26:25,080 Speaker 1: I really feel sorry for like the wife of this 472 00:26:25,200 --> 00:26:27,960 Speaker 1: dude that took all the money, because sure maybe she knew, 473 00:26:28,040 --> 00:26:29,800 Speaker 1: but I mean think about the time, and it's not 474 00:26:29,880 --> 00:26:32,399 Speaker 1: like she needed a friend. Probably like I was probably 475 00:26:32,440 --> 00:26:36,000 Speaker 1: a jerk. I don't know, I'm I'm editorializing here, but 476 00:26:36,240 --> 00:26:37,800 Speaker 1: I know it's it's a means to an end, and 477 00:26:37,800 --> 00:26:40,680 Speaker 1: I get that, and I respect the cunning and the tactics, 478 00:26:40,680 --> 00:26:43,480 Speaker 1: but there is part of me that's like, oh, you 479 00:26:43,680 --> 00:26:48,119 Speaker 1: made friends with the lonely wife of a bank teller 480 00:26:48,119 --> 00:26:50,240 Speaker 1: who stole some money, and now that you're all going 481 00:26:50,280 --> 00:26:52,920 Speaker 1: to prison, just stabbed in the gut. With that mention 482 00:26:52,960 --> 00:26:55,840 Speaker 1: of Adrianna, every still gets me, still gets me, still 483 00:26:55,880 --> 00:27:03,520 Speaker 1: feels a little soon brutal. Yeah, I have to say 484 00:27:03,600 --> 00:27:07,080 Speaker 1: my that one of these cases stands out and look, 485 00:27:07,119 --> 00:27:09,760 Speaker 1: I'm excited about getting to the time that she saves 486 00:27:09,800 --> 00:27:14,600 Speaker 1: Abraham Lincoln's life. Everybody loves a good Abraham Lincoln story, 487 00:27:14,640 --> 00:27:18,320 Speaker 1: as do I, But this one is so there's so 488 00:27:18,359 --> 00:27:21,800 Speaker 1: many aspects of this one. So on another case, Warren 489 00:27:21,880 --> 00:27:26,040 Speaker 1: actually thwarted a plot to poison a wealthy captain. This 490 00:27:26,040 --> 00:27:28,919 Speaker 1: this part is so brilliant. She poses as a fortune teller, 491 00:27:29,280 --> 00:27:31,359 Speaker 1: because who do people like to talk to? Who do 492 00:27:31,400 --> 00:27:35,199 Speaker 1: people like to divulge their secrets to a fortune teller? 493 00:27:35,840 --> 00:27:38,280 Speaker 1: So Pinkerton rents out this place where she can apply 494 00:27:38,359 --> 00:27:42,480 Speaker 1: her fortune telling trade, and she all she studied. She 495 00:27:42,520 --> 00:27:46,240 Speaker 1: studied up. Kate was a good student, and she studied 496 00:27:46,240 --> 00:27:48,000 Speaker 1: what she had to do to pretend to be a 497 00:27:48,000 --> 00:27:54,720 Speaker 1: good fortune teller. And she hosted Captain Sumner's sister, Annie Thayer. 498 00:27:55,800 --> 00:27:58,840 Speaker 1: Now Warren already knew a little bit about Annie Thayer 499 00:27:58,840 --> 00:28:01,000 Speaker 1: because she had already done her search. But the fact 500 00:28:01,080 --> 00:28:03,600 Speaker 1: that she knew about Annie Thayer meant that she seemed 501 00:28:03,680 --> 00:28:08,080 Speaker 1: like the best fortune teller of all time. And so 502 00:28:08,320 --> 00:28:12,680 Speaker 1: Thayre start really starts trusting her, and you know, develops 503 00:28:12,720 --> 00:28:17,399 Speaker 1: this connection with her, and then she eventually discloses that 504 00:28:17,640 --> 00:28:20,840 Speaker 1: she has been told by a lover named Mr Patmore 505 00:28:21,400 --> 00:28:28,040 Speaker 1: to assist Mr Donald Navy um a lover named Mr 506 00:28:28,080 --> 00:28:32,400 Speaker 1: Patmore to assist in the murder of Mr Patmore's wife 507 00:28:32,880 --> 00:28:39,240 Speaker 1: and her own brother, Dunn Captain Sumner. This this reads 508 00:28:39,280 --> 00:28:43,760 Speaker 1: like a clue the game play scenario. We've got Mrs 509 00:28:43,840 --> 00:28:48,959 Speaker 1: pat Moore with the poison in the drawing room and 510 00:28:49,120 --> 00:28:53,200 Speaker 1: Captain Sumner with the whatever candlestick. I don't know, but yeah, 511 00:28:53,240 --> 00:28:56,360 Speaker 1: this is wild. I love this in the intrigue so much. 512 00:28:56,400 --> 00:28:59,960 Speaker 1: It's like a good drawing room murder mystery. Don't forge 513 00:29:00,000 --> 00:29:06,200 Speaker 1: at Lucille. Where's tell? Oh, gosh, she could have done 514 00:29:06,240 --> 00:29:09,960 Speaker 1: better than that. That's I mean, that's a little but 515 00:29:10,680 --> 00:29:12,520 Speaker 1: I mean I think we can. I think I can 516 00:29:12,560 --> 00:29:14,360 Speaker 1: speak for all of us. You know, sometimes you have 517 00:29:14,440 --> 00:29:16,760 Speaker 1: to be you have to fake being a fortune teller 518 00:29:16,840 --> 00:29:19,320 Speaker 1: to get stuff done. It happens. Do you think she 519 00:29:19,400 --> 00:29:22,240 Speaker 1: did the voice? Oh, she definitely did the voice. Of 520 00:29:22,320 --> 00:29:23,920 Speaker 1: course she did the voice. You all know what the 521 00:29:24,000 --> 00:29:25,520 Speaker 1: voice is. We don't have to do we don't have 522 00:29:25,680 --> 00:29:29,360 Speaker 1: to hopefully crystal Ball and a classic you know, fortune 523 00:29:29,400 --> 00:29:31,840 Speaker 1: teller Turbine. These are all problematic tropes, by the way. 524 00:29:31,840 --> 00:29:33,320 Speaker 1: I'm just putting that out there, but that is the 525 00:29:33,440 --> 00:29:38,760 Speaker 1: quintessential kind of fortune teller um cliche that I guarantee 526 00:29:38,880 --> 00:29:42,000 Speaker 1: is what she pulled off. But it clearly worked because 527 00:29:42,080 --> 00:29:45,160 Speaker 1: she got her man or a woman again in this situation. 528 00:29:45,440 --> 00:29:47,200 Speaker 1: She did show although I have to say, and you 529 00:29:47,240 --> 00:29:49,120 Speaker 1: guys can edit this if you want, but since since 530 00:29:49,160 --> 00:29:51,760 Speaker 1: we brought up Weezer, every time I think about fortune teller, 531 00:29:51,840 --> 00:29:53,560 Speaker 1: I think of the fortune teller in the movie Mall 532 00:29:53,640 --> 00:29:57,440 Speaker 1: Rats with three nipples in the dirt, Mallya. You know 533 00:29:57,520 --> 00:30:00,120 Speaker 1: what I think of I think of the movie be 534 00:30:00,280 --> 00:30:04,440 Speaker 1: Big and the Arcade Machine with the Great Zultar or 535 00:30:04,480 --> 00:30:08,720 Speaker 1: whatever exactly. Again, all problematic tropes. But this was another age, 536 00:30:08,800 --> 00:30:12,560 Speaker 1: another time, and like and like you said, Kate cracked 537 00:30:12,640 --> 00:30:16,240 Speaker 1: this case wide open. Pat Moore was convicted of his 538 00:30:16,280 --> 00:30:20,080 Speaker 1: wife's murder, spent ten years in prison, and everything was 539 00:30:20,160 --> 00:30:23,000 Speaker 1: cleared up before poor Captain Sumner could be murdered. Good 540 00:30:23,000 --> 00:30:24,880 Speaker 1: old Captain Sumner. I hope he went on to live 541 00:30:24,960 --> 00:30:27,960 Speaker 1: a long and fruitful life on the high seas. I 542 00:30:28,120 --> 00:30:33,000 Speaker 1: hope he at least at least wrote to wrote to 543 00:30:33,040 --> 00:30:36,320 Speaker 1: Warren uh And and thanked her. Or maybe you know 544 00:30:36,440 --> 00:30:39,160 Speaker 1: what we don't know how Daniel day lewis or how 545 00:30:39,240 --> 00:30:43,120 Speaker 1: method she was with this. Maybe he is convinced that Lucille, 546 00:30:43,560 --> 00:30:47,360 Speaker 1: through her powers of divinations, saved his life. And if 547 00:30:47,480 --> 00:30:51,200 Speaker 1: that's the case, put it in the movie. I mean, 548 00:30:51,280 --> 00:30:54,200 Speaker 1: I'm just picturing this like we needed an amazing actor 549 00:30:54,320 --> 00:30:58,440 Speaker 1: for this, who can play all these different characters? Juries 550 00:30:58,440 --> 00:31:02,160 Speaker 1: out for me, I think it's anybody's game. But but 551 00:31:02,360 --> 00:31:08,040 Speaker 1: it's happened again, longtime listeners, we have run into another 552 00:31:08,240 --> 00:31:11,320 Speaker 1: two part series. We haven't even gotten to Lincoln yet. 553 00:31:11,800 --> 00:31:15,920 Speaker 1: Uh And and I agree Joe, honestly, just just from 554 00:31:15,920 --> 00:31:19,680 Speaker 1: an aesthetic storytelling perspective, I think the Fortune Teller is 555 00:31:19,720 --> 00:31:23,360 Speaker 1: a little bit of a stronger story, but the Abraham 556 00:31:23,440 --> 00:31:27,120 Speaker 1: Lincoln one is also historically important, so much so that 557 00:31:27,400 --> 00:31:30,600 Speaker 1: we are going to dedicate part two of our series 558 00:31:30,800 --> 00:31:35,440 Speaker 1: on the United States first female detective entirely to this 559 00:31:35,800 --> 00:31:41,480 Speaker 1: assassination attempt and her heroic actions on that day. Spoiler guys, 560 00:31:41,600 --> 00:31:44,640 Speaker 1: don't don't search for this before the episode two comes out. 561 00:31:44,720 --> 00:31:48,840 Speaker 1: You're gonna enjoy it. It's got a lot of weird twist. Um, Joe, 562 00:31:49,280 --> 00:31:53,040 Speaker 1: thank you so much for coming on the show today. Uh. 563 00:31:53,120 --> 00:31:55,840 Speaker 1: I you know, through the magic of podcast editing. Will 564 00:31:55,880 --> 00:32:00,040 Speaker 1: be back in what Noel Casey two days? Uh in 565 00:32:00,160 --> 00:32:02,520 Speaker 1: real time? Oh well no, and and podcast timely back 566 00:32:02,560 --> 00:32:05,160 Speaker 1: in two days in our time. We'll be back in 567 00:32:05,280 --> 00:32:10,320 Speaker 1: like one minute. You know, you're shattering the illusion here. Hey, look, 568 00:32:10,520 --> 00:32:12,360 Speaker 1: you know have to pretend that we're all gonna go away. 569 00:32:12,400 --> 00:32:14,480 Speaker 1: We're gonna come back two days later and then resumed, 570 00:32:14,600 --> 00:32:18,120 Speaker 1: we're gonna go about our lives and me. Okay, all right, 571 00:32:18,400 --> 00:32:20,440 Speaker 1: I wouldn't that be nice? I got a couch to 572 00:32:20,480 --> 00:32:24,520 Speaker 1: build you guys, and we have a story to tell. 573 00:32:24,880 --> 00:32:28,040 Speaker 1: While you're waiting for part two of Kate Warren, the 574 00:32:28,200 --> 00:32:33,760 Speaker 1: US first female detective, why not check out Fierce? Joe. 575 00:32:33,920 --> 00:32:38,280 Speaker 1: Where's the best place for people to learn more about Fierce? Well, 576 00:32:38,360 --> 00:32:40,840 Speaker 1: you can find episodes of Fierce on the I Heart 577 00:32:40,920 --> 00:32:45,000 Speaker 1: Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. 578 00:32:45,480 --> 00:32:49,160 Speaker 1: I also post all of the episodes on my own Instagram, 579 00:32:49,360 --> 00:32:52,240 Speaker 1: which is at Joe Pianza Author. And you have a 580 00:32:52,320 --> 00:32:55,520 Speaker 1: pretty cracker jack website too with links tell your books, 581 00:32:55,600 --> 00:32:59,200 Speaker 1: of which there are many, um and your other podcast 582 00:32:59,280 --> 00:33:01,480 Speaker 1: projects and all the stuff that you've got going on. 583 00:33:01,520 --> 00:33:03,120 Speaker 1: I think you might even have one of those blogs 584 00:33:03,200 --> 00:33:05,800 Speaker 1: people used to write blog blog, blog blah blah. Blog 585 00:33:05,800 --> 00:33:07,320 Speaker 1: doesn't plug sound like a fake word. If you say 586 00:33:07,360 --> 00:33:09,440 Speaker 1: blog enough, it's a fun word to say. Oh oh, 587 00:33:09,720 --> 00:33:12,280 Speaker 1: this is so useless and unrelated to what we're talking about. 588 00:33:12,720 --> 00:33:17,120 Speaker 1: The phenomenon you're describing is semantic satiation, when you say 589 00:33:17,120 --> 00:33:19,360 Speaker 1: a word over and over and over uh, and you 590 00:33:19,480 --> 00:33:22,480 Speaker 1: trick your brain into completely losing whatever that that word 591 00:33:22,560 --> 00:33:26,000 Speaker 1: is supposed to represent, meaning guise. So there, there it is. 592 00:33:26,280 --> 00:33:30,600 Speaker 1: I came here for etymology and idioms and luck. I 593 00:33:30,680 --> 00:33:34,040 Speaker 1: feel good now that happens. Ask any shall receive h 594 00:33:34,160 --> 00:33:37,080 Speaker 1: So once again, huge thanks to Joe Piazza for joining 595 00:33:37,160 --> 00:33:39,960 Speaker 1: us today. Big thanks super producer Casey Pegram Alex Williams, 596 00:33:40,000 --> 00:33:43,600 Speaker 1: who composed our theme. Christopher Haciota is always here in spirit. 597 00:33:43,840 --> 00:33:46,120 Speaker 1: Oh sorry, I was drinking my ice coffee. I drink 598 00:33:46,200 --> 00:33:49,160 Speaker 1: so much of this nowadays. Big thanks to Eve's Jeff Coat. 599 00:33:49,280 --> 00:33:53,920 Speaker 1: Of course, thanks to our research associate, uh the Magnetic 600 00:33:54,120 --> 00:33:57,840 Speaker 1: North of Ridiculous History, Gabe Bluesia. Did you already say Gabe? 601 00:33:58,360 --> 00:34:00,680 Speaker 1: I did not say Gabe. Oh okay, Well we'll keep 602 00:34:00,720 --> 00:34:03,600 Speaker 1: this part in the great We'll see you next time. 603 00:34:03,680 --> 00:34:13,480 Speaker 1: Fix for more podcasts from my heart Radio, visit the 604 00:34:13,520 --> 00:34:16,439 Speaker 1: i heart Radio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you listen 605 00:34:16,480 --> 00:34:17,520 Speaker 1: to your favorite shows.