WEBVTT - It Could Happen Here Weekly 14 0:00:00.080 --> 0:00:02.520 Hey, everybody, Robert Evans here and I wanted to let 0:00:02.520 --> 0:00:06.199 you know this is a compilation episode. So every episode 0:00:06.320 --> 0:00:09.400 of the week that just happened is here in one 0:00:09.520 --> 0:00:13.239 convenient and with somewhat less ads package for you to 0:00:13.320 --> 0:00:15.800 listen to in a long stretch if you want. If 0:00:15.800 --> 0:00:17.720 you've been listening to the episodes every day this week, 0:00:17.800 --> 0:00:19.959 there's gonna be nothing new here for you, but you 0:00:19.960 --> 0:00:27.440 can make your own decisions. Welcome to it could happen here, 0:00:27.480 --> 0:00:30.000 a podcast about things falling apart, how they came to 0:00:30.040 --> 0:00:33.160 be that way. I'm your host, Christopher Wong, and today 0:00:33.200 --> 0:00:36.919 we're doing part three of our series of Neoliberalism. We're 0:00:36.920 --> 0:00:39.279 gonna start today with one of the most famous episodes 0:00:39.320 --> 0:00:44.200 in history of neoliberalism. September eleventh three Coup against Salat 0:00:44.240 --> 0:00:48.080 or Ende was a democratic socialist of a type that 0:00:48.080 --> 0:00:51.440 has broadly ceased to exist today. A committed Marxist to 0:00:51.479 --> 0:00:54.240 believe that class of society could be created by means 0:00:54.240 --> 0:00:58.240 of electoral democracy, he embarked on a campaign drastically more 0:00:58.320 --> 0:01:01.600 radical than any modern social politician has done, more than 0:01:01.720 --> 0:01:05.319 dream of mass nationalizations, in an attempt to develop a 0:01:05.319 --> 0:01:08.280 technical system that would allow the government to democratically plan 0:01:08.360 --> 0:01:12.400 as much of the economy as humanly possible. In part 0:01:12.600 --> 0:01:15.600 his hand was forced by Chile's workers who had embarked 0:01:15.600 --> 0:01:19.040 on their own unsanctioned campaign of takeovers of minds and factories, 0:01:19.440 --> 0:01:21.759 which I Andy disapproved of and now sought to bring 0:01:21.800 --> 0:01:25.240 under the national planning scheme. To do this, he brought 0:01:25.240 --> 0:01:29.800 in British cybernetics theorists Stanford Beer, who embarked on an 0:01:29.800 --> 0:01:33.400 operation called Project Cybersend to collect and coordinate information between 0:01:33.480 --> 0:01:37.039 various factories and allow democratic planning at the ground level 0:01:37.040 --> 0:01:40.520 in a way that would allow stantaneous reaction to crises 0:01:40.560 --> 0:01:43.440 and immediate changes in production levels and conditions inside the 0:01:43.440 --> 0:01:47.000 factories themselves to deal with them. All End, for all 0:01:47.040 --> 0:01:50.560 of s. Bark's credentials, was fiercely critical of the bureaucratization 0:01:50.640 --> 0:01:53.160 of the U. S s R, and, in particular in 0:01:53.200 --> 0:01:56.440 the economic sphere, the way it's planning systems were essentially 0:01:56.480 --> 0:01:59.320 unable to react to local changes quickly in a context 0:01:59.680 --> 0:02:03.520 where plans were only created every five years. Cybersen would 0:02:03.520 --> 0:02:06.400 solve these problems by workers participation at the factory level 0:02:06.440 --> 0:02:10.720 and constant updated data flows to the planning office. As 0:02:10.720 --> 0:02:14.640 the project went on, Beer became progressively more radical. Strike 0:02:14.720 --> 0:02:17.000 by right wing truck workers backed by capitalists in the 0:02:17.040 --> 0:02:20.480 CIA in nineteen two threatened to grind the nation to 0:02:20.520 --> 0:02:25.560 a halt. In response, workers formed enormous cordonas industrialities or 0:02:25.560 --> 0:02:29.239 industrial belts to help self organized production and bypass the 0:02:29.280 --> 0:02:32.720 striking right wing workers. In coordination with the Andia's government 0:02:32.760 --> 0:02:35.160 and a new cybers in control room, they were able 0:02:35.200 --> 0:02:38.000 to outmaneuver the strike and maintain production and distribution and 0:02:38.120 --> 0:02:41.320 nearly full capacity by tracking where goods were going and 0:02:41.320 --> 0:02:44.760 where they needed to go along what roots. Beer rapidly 0:02:44.800 --> 0:02:48.359 became convinced that quote the basic answer of cybermntics the 0:02:48.440 --> 0:02:51.360 question of how the system should be organized is that 0:02:51.440 --> 0:02:56.080 it ought to organize itself, in essence that Cyberson should 0:02:56.080 --> 0:02:58.400 be used to eliminate the bureaucracy in the state entirely 0:02:58.440 --> 0:03:02.560 and allow workers to directly or nights production themselves. Now, 0:03:03.520 --> 0:03:06.520 Cyberson in theory is what the near a libals claim, 0:03:06.560 --> 0:03:09.520 at least in public, to want, is an anti bureaucratic 0:03:09.560 --> 0:03:11.840 system that uses the centralized control over the means of 0:03:11.840 --> 0:03:15.040 production to combat totalitarianism and ensure that the state respects 0:03:15.040 --> 0:03:18.919 individual rights and liberties. In fact, as a Vengi Motoro's 0:03:19.040 --> 0:03:21.760 put it, Pierre and Hyak knew each other, as Beer 0:03:21.880 --> 0:03:25.000 noted in his diary. Hyak even complimented him on his 0:03:25.080 --> 0:03:27.880 vision for the cybernetic factory after Beer presented at a 0:03:27.960 --> 0:03:31.799 conference in the nineteen in Illinois. So, naturally, when the 0:03:31.840 --> 0:03:34.400 system was actually implemented, at least in part in Chile, 0:03:34.920 --> 0:03:37.280 the new liberal position was that every single person involved 0:03:37.280 --> 0:03:40.720 in the entire economic bearment needed to be killed. Chile 0:03:40.880 --> 0:03:43.640 was put under economic blockade by the US and multinational 0:03:43.680 --> 0:03:47.920 corporations with full neilerable support, an ironic position given Milton Friedman, 0:03:48.080 --> 0:03:51.480 Hyak and Rope case pure and absolute opposition to economic 0:03:51.480 --> 0:03:55.440 blockades of South Africa. Rhodesia to its eternal shame. The 0:03:55.440 --> 0:03:57.800 a f l c i O s American Institute for 0:03:57.840 --> 0:04:00.480 Free Labor Development provided training and fun to the right 0:04:00.520 --> 0:04:03.840 wing unions that opposed the leftist government and others across 0:04:03.880 --> 0:04:07.800 Latin America. In Chile, working directly with the CIA, the 0:04:07.840 --> 0:04:09.920 a f l c i OS organizations to train the 0:04:09.960 --> 0:04:12.560 right wing truckers. Here's nineteen seventy two strike we've already 0:04:12.560 --> 0:04:15.080 discussed and he's nineteen seventy three strike would pave the 0:04:15.080 --> 0:04:19.679 way for Pinochet's coup. In many cases, organized labor, especially 0:04:19.680 --> 0:04:22.760 in the US, but also in places like Italy, spent 0:04:22.800 --> 0:04:25.640 the seventies battling their own left flank in defensive capital. 0:04:26.960 --> 0:04:29.280 The reward for their services was capital turning around and 0:04:29.320 --> 0:04:32.560 dutting them like a fish. In the eighties two fought 0:04:32.560 --> 0:04:34.880 a series of battles with his left flank. Disarming the 0:04:34.880 --> 0:04:37.280 mass workers assemblies that had formed in nineteen seventy two 0:04:37.279 --> 0:04:40.120 could have saved him from the coup. The results was 0:04:40.160 --> 0:04:43.400 the other nine eleven, on which day in nineteen seventy three, 0:04:43.440 --> 0:04:46.320 the military overthrew Allende and a coup, and Allen shot 0:04:46.360 --> 0:04:49.520 himself in the presidential palace. The man who would emerge 0:04:49.520 --> 0:04:51.520 on the top of the power struggle in the military 0:04:51.560 --> 0:04:55.440 at the end of the coup was one Augusto Pinochet. Now. 0:04:55.600 --> 0:04:58.200 Pinochet from the beginning had the support of Chile's own 0:04:58.279 --> 0:05:01.559 domestic neo liberals, which they were a fairly large number. 0:05:02.160 --> 0:05:04.360 Upon taking power, he carried out what would become the 0:05:04.360 --> 0:05:09.560 standard neoliberal program, returning nationalized industries to the capitalists, eliminating 0:05:09.560 --> 0:05:13.720 price controls, and increasing interest rates, but full scale neoliberalism 0:05:13.800 --> 0:05:18.440 didn't come immediately. Inflation, which Pinochet had nominally in large 0:05:18.480 --> 0:05:22.760 part taken power to control, continued unabated, and in nineteen 0:05:22.800 --> 0:05:25.560 seventy four Milton Friedman arrived in Chile to argue for 0:05:25.640 --> 0:05:29.760 neoliberal shock therapy. But it wasn't until Pinochet's desperation from 0:05:29.800 --> 0:05:31.320 money drove him to the i m F that he 0:05:31.320 --> 0:05:35.160 would fully embrace neoliberalism. Most of the world had refused 0:05:35.200 --> 0:05:37.640 to do business with new dictatorial regime, with the exception 0:05:37.640 --> 0:05:40.680 of the U S and oddly enough MAOS China, which 0:05:40.760 --> 0:05:44.320 poured money into the regime and Pinochet's personal pockets. But 0:05:44.400 --> 0:05:47.520 that money was insufficient, and the i m F was 0:05:47.560 --> 0:05:49.800 the only remaining body who would actually lend money to 0:05:49.839 --> 0:05:54.000 Pinochet without any requirements on improving Chile's at this point 0:05:54.000 --> 0:05:57.599 of bismo human rights record, much of the full neoliberal 0:05:57.640 --> 0:06:00.000 turn that hit Chile in nineteen seventy five came from 0:06:00.120 --> 0:06:03.960 demands from the I m F itself, who demanded terconian 0:06:04.000 --> 0:06:07.680 measures to control inflation. Here, Pinochet was aided by the 0:06:07.680 --> 0:06:11.279 support of the neoliberals, whose legitimacy and academic standing allowed 0:06:11.320 --> 0:06:13.800 them to negotiate and secure favor from the I m F, 0:06:13.839 --> 0:06:17.039 which they had already begun to infiltrate. At this point, 0:06:17.080 --> 0:06:20.720 the infamous Chicago Boys, economist trains at the University of 0:06:20.760 --> 0:06:23.720 Chicago by Milton Friedman, were put in charge of the economy. 0:06:24.200 --> 0:06:27.760 University of Chicago trained economist Sergio di Castro, known as 0:06:27.760 --> 0:06:29.800 the Pinochet of the Economy, was put in charge of 0:06:29.800 --> 0:06:33.799 the Ministry of Economics. The Castro privatized an enormous portion 0:06:33.839 --> 0:06:37.760 of the remaining profitable state industries, eliminated tariffs and implemented 0:06:37.800 --> 0:06:41.400 free trade policies, deregulated the finance sector, and eliminated any 0:06:41.440 --> 0:06:44.640 remaining price controls. Chicago Boys would go on to do 0:06:44.720 --> 0:06:47.320 things like privatizing the entire dele and pension system, with 0:06:47.360 --> 0:06:50.200 the exception of the military, which is a good education 0:06:50.279 --> 0:06:53.040 of any as to what the regime thought the actual 0:06:53.040 --> 0:06:58.360 effects of privatization would be. In nineteen Pinochet declared something 0:06:58.400 --> 0:07:04.680 called the Seven Modernizations, with quote reforms in labor, education, health, 0:07:05.040 --> 0:07:09.440 regional decentralization, agriculture, and justice policy. The goal of these 0:07:09.480 --> 0:07:13.160 reforms was to introduce the market into literally every aspect 0:07:13.160 --> 0:07:17.320 of society. Now, in Episode one, I very briefly mentioned 0:07:17.320 --> 0:07:19.880 the Virginia School as one of the major schools of 0:07:19.920 --> 0:07:24.280 deal liberalism. The Virginia School the people behind public choice theory. 0:07:24.560 --> 0:07:27.720 Their thing is essentially taking the absolutely absurd set of 0:07:27.720 --> 0:07:32.080 beliefs Chicago School holds about people humans are all knowing, rational, 0:07:32.160 --> 0:07:34.800 calculating gods, optimizing their behavior to get the most of 0:07:34.880 --> 0:07:38.920 every single interaction to maximize the utility, and then applying 0:07:38.920 --> 0:07:41.400 it to political science and then literally every other field. 0:07:41.840 --> 0:07:44.280 If you've ever heard someone say, there's no rational reason 0:07:44.320 --> 0:07:47.480 to vote, because if you're a rational, self interested person, 0:07:47.560 --> 0:07:49.840 the cost of voting outweighs that benefit because your vote 0:07:49.840 --> 0:07:52.960 only matters if it's deciding one. Therefore, it's against your 0:07:53.000 --> 0:07:55.559 interest to vote. That's the Virginia School and their public 0:07:55.600 --> 0:08:00.720 choice theory bullshit at work. Pinochet's seven Modernization was an 0:08:00.720 --> 0:08:03.840 application of Virginia School doctrine to the entire Chilean state 0:08:03.880 --> 0:08:06.560 and as much as the society is humanly possible, with 0:08:06.600 --> 0:08:09.480 the goal of transforming it into a market. I'm going 0:08:09.520 --> 0:08:12.000 to read a section from the Road to Mount Pelion 0:08:12.400 --> 0:08:18.360 describing Virginia School titan James M. Buchanan's work quote ineffectual 0:08:18.400 --> 0:08:21.280 consequences in the political market place were blamed solely on 0:08:21.320 --> 0:08:25.240 the fallacies of political decision making. Quote. We can summarize 0:08:25.240 --> 0:08:28.440 public choice as a theory of government failure end quote. 0:08:28.920 --> 0:08:32.920 Buchanan delivered a highly abstract paper titled Limited or Untitled 0:08:32.960 --> 0:08:36.360 Democracy to the Montpellion Society in Vinea del Mar in Chile, 0:08:37.800 --> 0:08:40.520 which some constructed as a critique of the host country's 0:08:40.559 --> 0:08:45.839 mobilization for action history. Buchanan stated that if limited democracy 0:08:45.960 --> 0:08:49.160 was a polity predisposed to disable a political market that 0:08:49.160 --> 0:08:52.800 would otherwise promote the most efficient allocation of resources, the 0:08:52.840 --> 0:08:55.320 only meaningful task of the government would be to deprive 0:08:55.520 --> 0:08:58.679 the polity of its ability to do so. Public choice 0:08:58.720 --> 0:09:01.880 theory thus sought to limit democracy and deep politicize the 0:09:01.880 --> 0:09:04.720 state in order to enable uncontraded market forces to guide 0:09:04.760 --> 0:09:09.400 human interaction. Since the Pinochet regime was committed to using 0:09:09.400 --> 0:09:13.439 its governmental powers in precisely this manner, Buchanan's paper provided 0:09:13.480 --> 0:09:15.960 theoretical support for the regime, even if it did not 0:09:16.040 --> 0:09:20.680 openly endorsed the authoritarian rule. Buchanan, of course, would spend 0:09:20.679 --> 0:09:23.880 a bunch of time doing lectures in Chile throughout Pinochet's icatorship, 0:09:24.040 --> 0:09:27.000 but he was not that regime's most vociferous neoliberal supporter. 0:09:27.520 --> 0:09:30.680 That award goes to Frederick Hyak Chris Hiek when asked 0:09:30.679 --> 0:09:32.800 about Chile, which had been to nineteen seventy eight and 0:09:32.840 --> 0:09:36.480 that blessed with his approval. A dicatorship can restrict itself 0:09:36.480 --> 0:09:39.480 in A edicatorship which deliberately is restricting itself can be 0:09:39.600 --> 0:09:42.439 more liberal in its politics than a democratic assembly which 0:09:42.440 --> 0:09:46.560 has due limits. Chile's nineteen eighty constitution was drafted in 0:09:46.679 --> 0:09:49.840 part by one of Yek's friends. She has wrote Rode 0:09:49.840 --> 0:09:53.480 Abount Pelion Again. The constitution was not only named after 0:09:53.559 --> 0:09:57.600 hys book The Constitution of Liberty, but also incorporated significant 0:09:57.600 --> 0:10:01.240 elements of hias thinking. Above all, the constitution placed a 0:10:01.240 --> 0:10:05.600 strong emphasis on a neoliberal understanding of freedom. Guzman's version 0:10:05.600 --> 0:10:09.320 of freedom is intrinsically connected to private property, free enterprise, 0:10:09.400 --> 0:10:13.720 and individual rights. Individual freedom, in his interpretation, can only 0:10:13.800 --> 0:10:17.920 evolve in a radical market order. The Constitution was dedicated 0:10:17.960 --> 0:10:21.560 to guarantee such an order without constraining any economic activities. 0:10:21.960 --> 0:10:25.160 In order to protect free market conditions and individual freedoms 0:10:25.160 --> 0:10:30.400 against totalitarian attacks or democratic interventions, the constitution stipulated a 0:10:30.480 --> 0:10:33.840 necessity of a strong central state authority to guarantee the 0:10:33.920 --> 0:10:37.199 established rule of law, and thus above all else is 0:10:37.280 --> 0:10:42.320 hampered in the application of discretionary government power. Exempted were 0:10:42.320 --> 0:10:46.240 measures to uphold the status quo, inasmuch as Guzman aggressively 0:10:46.240 --> 0:10:49.760 supported continuing the state of emergency, which legalized the use 0:10:49.800 --> 0:10:53.000 of whatever discretionary powers were deemed necessary to quial opposition. 0:10:54.360 --> 0:10:57.400 That Folks is a high achi in constitution used the 0:10:57.440 --> 0:11:00.080 state to murder any one once democracy or God to 0:11:00.120 --> 0:11:02.360 help them wants to control the production they're forced to 0:11:02.400 --> 0:11:07.000 serve every day. Chile is near liberalisms voltron by binding 0:11:07.040 --> 0:11:10.800 the power of all four major schools of neoliberalism Chicago 0:11:10.840 --> 0:11:15.480 School and Monetary and Economic policy, Australian School Constitutional order order, 0:11:15.520 --> 0:11:18.680 liberal reliance on the international bureaucracy and legal institutions like 0:11:18.720 --> 0:11:21.760 the i m F in order to promote a market economy, 0:11:21.800 --> 0:11:24.960 and Virginia School public choice theory running the state. You 0:11:25.000 --> 0:11:30.160 get a neoliberal, right wing military dictatorship. Now most conventional 0:11:30.160 --> 0:11:33.400 accounts of neoliberalism will move from Chile to Reagan and 0:11:33.440 --> 0:11:37.640 Thatcher and next episode will cover the neoliberal kind of 0:11:37.720 --> 0:11:42.040 revolution in the angle sphere, But focusing on purely national 0:11:42.080 --> 0:11:45.560 events gives a skewed perception of how neoliberalism actually spreads, 0:11:47.200 --> 0:11:49.240 and in order to correct that, we're going to look 0:11:49.240 --> 0:11:52.120 at Venezuela. I'm going to be drawing heavily here from 0:11:52.120 --> 0:11:55.200 the work of the legendary Venezuelan anthropologist Fernando core and 0:11:55.200 --> 0:11:57.520 Neil in his book The Magical State, which I highly 0:11:57.520 --> 0:11:59.280 recommend as one of the best things that are written 0:11:59.280 --> 0:12:03.280 about oil and the Venezuelan state. So readers be warned. 0:12:03.400 --> 0:12:06.040 Chapter one is an absolute slog that, on the one hand, 0:12:06.080 --> 0:12:08.080 is one of the most interesting explanations of what oiler 0:12:08.080 --> 0:12:11.760 rents are have ever encountered, but also features Corneal inventing 0:12:11.800 --> 0:12:15.120 a new trielectic and then stubbornly refusing to explain what 0:12:15.240 --> 0:12:18.120 it is or literally anything about how it works. So 0:12:18.440 --> 0:12:22.880 read The Magical State skip chapter one now the guiding 0:12:22.920 --> 0:12:27.080 principles of the new mass capitalists, democratic parties and posted statorship. 0:12:27.160 --> 0:12:30.920 Venezuela since the nineties sixties had been developing sovereignty by 0:12:30.960 --> 0:12:34.520 economic independence. The keystone of this project was an attempt 0:12:34.559 --> 0:12:36.319 to use the power of the state in new oil 0:12:36.440 --> 0:12:40.760 rents to develop an automotive industry. The project has sort 0:12:40.800 --> 0:12:43.840 of stalled out from its origins in the sixties until 0:12:43.840 --> 0:12:46.280 the rise of the G seventy seven Opeque Alliance in 0:12:46.400 --> 0:12:49.920 nineteen nineteen seventy four that we discussed last episode. In 0:12:50.000 --> 0:12:53.080 nineteen seventy five, Venezuela's Assembly passed a law that granted 0:12:53.080 --> 0:12:56.520 the president's special powers to speed up the developments of 0:12:56.520 --> 0:13:01.120 the Auto Industry Corp. The Auto Industry in Venezuela Corinial 0:13:01.200 --> 0:13:04.000 described it thus quote. The central goal was to have 0:13:04.720 --> 0:13:07.840 of the vehicle's value, including the drive train, produced locally. 0:13:07.920 --> 0:13:11.880 By nineteen five, major components would be produced by enterprises 0:13:11.920 --> 0:13:14.120 having at least fifty one percent of their capital from 0:13:14.160 --> 0:13:17.920 local private sources. Existing foreign companies would have to become 0:13:17.960 --> 0:13:20.920 mixed or national firms in accord within day Impact regulations 0:13:20.920 --> 0:13:24.320 if they wanted to benefit from the common market. Now, 0:13:24.920 --> 0:13:28.680 this plan is what's called industrial import substitution. Developing countries 0:13:28.679 --> 0:13:31.760 would attempt to develop industries, in this case, auto manufacturers 0:13:31.920 --> 0:13:34.640 inside of a country to produce cars for internal consumption 0:13:34.640 --> 0:13:37.920 instead of importing them from other countries. The other key 0:13:37.960 --> 0:13:43.439 of this plan is Danda Impact, an association of Bolivia, Columbia, Ecuador, Peru, 0:13:43.600 --> 0:13:47.319 and Chile that was collaborating to develop a regional industrial 0:13:47.320 --> 0:13:50.559 economy that we use local resources to build a local 0:13:50.600 --> 0:13:53.920 industrial economy producing industrial goods made entirely inside of the 0:13:53.960 --> 0:13:58.440 countries themselves from their resources. Now, Venezuela joins the pack 0:13:58.520 --> 0:14:01.079 in nineteen seventy three, and Peano Shane notably leaves in 0:14:02.960 --> 0:14:05.520 the key sticking points in this joint and day impact 0:14:05.600 --> 0:14:09.240 venezuela attempts to build an auto industry was that Venezuela 0:14:09.280 --> 0:14:12.520 needed technology held by multinational corporations in order to actually 0:14:12.520 --> 0:14:15.960 produce the vehicles. Multinational car companies were willing to go 0:14:16.000 --> 0:14:18.120 ahead with the project to build cars in Venezuela in 0:14:18.160 --> 0:14:20.040 the short term because they were hurting from the oil 0:14:20.040 --> 0:14:22.480 shock and thus were willing to help national plans develop 0:14:22.560 --> 0:14:24.640 cars as long as they could use the parts to 0:14:24.640 --> 0:14:27.000 build their own cars with parts sourced from around the world. 0:14:28.080 --> 0:14:30.840 And this is where the neoliberal defensive intellectual property rights 0:14:30.880 --> 0:14:33.760 becomes extremely important, because the companies who held the patents 0:14:33.760 --> 0:14:36.800 for the drive trains essentially had a technological strangleholder for 0:14:36.880 --> 0:14:42.760 car development. Now, Venezuela conducted an extensive bidding process for 0:14:42.800 --> 0:14:46.360 companies to make cars in Venezuela, but the car companies 0:14:46.440 --> 0:14:50.760 essentially sabotaged by submitting designs that failed specs. The result 0:14:50.920 --> 0:14:54.720 was a kind of political war inside Venezuela and particularly 0:14:54.800 --> 0:14:57.440 inside the Venezuela and ruling class, between national developments and 0:14:57.520 --> 0:15:03.440 international profits. The Venezuelan developmentalists needed a breakthrough. What they needed, 0:15:03.480 --> 0:15:08.360 in essence, was new international economic order and its corporate regulations, 0:15:08.440 --> 0:15:13.560 debt relief, and technology transfers. Without them, even a third 0:15:13.560 --> 0:15:17.560 World country like Venezuela, flush with oil money, was incapable 0:15:17.640 --> 0:15:22.160 of developing an industrial economy. The new international Economic Order 0:15:22.200 --> 0:15:24.960 never came. All the G seven had to do in 0:15:25.160 --> 0:15:27.160 order to stop it was stalled the G seventy seven 0:15:27.200 --> 0:15:30.600 out until commodity power faded. The G seventy seven had 0:15:30.640 --> 0:15:32.960 to fundamentally change the structure of the economy in order 0:15:33.000 --> 0:15:35.720 to allow them to industrialize before the sort of damocles 0:15:35.800 --> 0:15:38.800 hanging over all their heads the mounting Third World debt 0:15:39.280 --> 0:15:43.080 fell and decapitated them. The G seven strategy to outlast 0:15:43.000 --> 0:15:45.080 the G seventy seven was to pull the various factions 0:15:45.080 --> 0:15:48.560 in the seventy seven apart, in particular pulling the moderate 0:15:48.600 --> 0:15:51.640 governments away from the radical wing of OPEC and the 0:15:51.720 --> 0:15:55.560 African Socialists. They attacked OPEC by using Saudi Arabia to 0:15:55.640 --> 0:15:57.960 undermine its unity, and attempted to peel the so called 0:15:58.040 --> 0:16:02.320 less developed countries away from their alliance with OPEC with 0:16:02.400 --> 0:16:04.640 a promise of aid to patch up the damage dealt 0:16:04.640 --> 0:16:08.760 by increased oil prices. Neither worked incredibly well, but when 0:16:08.760 --> 0:16:11.200 combined with the US essentially shutting the u N down 0:16:11.280 --> 0:16:13.520 by refusing to let any business get done, refusing to 0:16:13.600 --> 0:16:18.560 vote for or even vetoing routine matters, the stalling worked. 0:16:19.400 --> 0:16:23.840 No new international economic order was forthcoming. Instead, the world 0:16:23.880 --> 0:16:28.680 would get neoliberalism. Neoliberalism arrived on the world stage in 0:16:28.680 --> 0:16:31.680 the form of the Vulcar Shock. In nineteen seventy nine, 0:16:31.760 --> 0:16:34.240 Jimmy Carter appointed Paul Vulcar as the Chairman of the 0:16:34.280 --> 0:16:36.560 Federal Reserve for the broad mandate to do whatever he 0:16:36.640 --> 0:16:41.200 wanted to reduce inflation. Vulcar had become a disciple of monitorism, 0:16:41.240 --> 0:16:43.600 a Freedman Night Chicago School belief about the role of 0:16:43.640 --> 0:16:46.239 the money supply in the economy considered to be absolutely 0:16:46.280 --> 0:16:49.920 crank even by modern neoliberals. His solution, which became known 0:16:49.920 --> 0:16:53.840 as the Vulcar Shock, was to increase interest rate. This 0:16:54.000 --> 0:16:56.640 essentially blew a crater in the American economy and immediately 0:16:56.680 --> 0:16:59.040 sent it into recession. And we'll get to vulcar at 0:16:59.040 --> 0:17:01.760 Reagan's efforts to roy American labor in the next episode. 0:17:02.120 --> 0:17:04.800 But the damage to the Third World was even worse. 0:17:06.080 --> 0:17:10.040 G seventy seven governments had for decades taking on adjustable 0:17:10.119 --> 0:17:13.400 rate loans pecked to something called the lybor rate. When 0:17:13.400 --> 0:17:16.160 they took the loans out, interest rates were virtually negative, 0:17:16.400 --> 0:17:19.879 but when the Vulgar Shock hit, the skyrocketed. Now, as 0:17:19.920 --> 0:17:22.280 we talked about last episode, a major part of the 0:17:22.280 --> 0:17:24.800 crisis of the seventies was enormous piles of oil money, 0:17:24.880 --> 0:17:27.920 mostly from the Gulf States, floating around that nobody could 0:17:28.040 --> 0:17:31.080 actually get returns on because of declining manufacturing profit rates. 0:17:31.760 --> 0:17:34.520 This money wound up flowing back into the American finance system. 0:17:34.560 --> 0:17:38.320 When capital controls were lifted nineteen sevent the banks through 0:17:38.359 --> 0:17:40.480 the money at loans in the Third World. Now, some 0:17:40.560 --> 0:17:42.760 of that money had been put into industrial development that 0:17:42.800 --> 0:17:45.000 had yet to pay off. Some of the money had 0:17:45.000 --> 0:17:48.280 simply been put directly into dictator's bank accounts, but the 0:17:48.320 --> 0:17:50.680 bank's essentially didn't care if the loans they were making 0:17:50.680 --> 0:17:53.280 had little to no chance of being repaid without some 0:17:53.359 --> 0:17:57.320 kind of structure reformed. Because in control of the I 0:17:57.520 --> 0:17:59.920 m F fell to an arch neo liberal named Jacques 0:18:00.560 --> 0:18:03.159 de la Rosier. I really don't know if that's how 0:18:03.200 --> 0:18:06.680 to pronounce his name, but he is evil. So neo 0:18:06.720 --> 0:18:09.280 liberals further took control of the World Bank in knee 0:18:09.960 --> 0:18:11.600 from the I m F and the World Bank, a 0:18:11.640 --> 0:18:14.280 sepsia of ne liberals enshrined the key principle of the 0:18:14.320 --> 0:18:17.840 new neoliberal order Debtors must always pay back their debts. 0:18:18.280 --> 0:18:21.240 Creditors would no longer assume risk for their loans. Instead, 0:18:21.400 --> 0:18:24.440 loans would be repaid at gunpoint. This was no mere 0:18:24.520 --> 0:18:28.199 rhetorical slogan, As the G seventy seven imploded as a 0:18:28.200 --> 0:18:30.440 political body under the weight of hundreds of billions of 0:18:30.480 --> 0:18:34.880 dollars of debt now with interest. Thomas Sankara, the socialist 0:18:34.920 --> 0:18:38.359 president of Burkina FOSSO, attempted to rally its remains to 0:18:38.480 --> 0:18:42.199 collectively negotiate debt relief. Sakara was promptly shot by a 0:18:42.240 --> 0:18:45.760 former ally who accused him of threatening Borkino Fossil's relationship 0:18:45.800 --> 0:18:49.439 with France. With all resistance slaughtered, entire nations were reduced 0:18:49.440 --> 0:18:52.960 to debt servicing machines, as tax dollars were directed from health, education, 0:18:53.359 --> 0:18:56.760 and social security programs into the coffers of international banks, 0:18:57.240 --> 0:19:00.199 which used the newly neo liberal controlled International Knowledge Very 0:19:00.240 --> 0:19:04.080 Fund as their enforcer. The anthropologist David Graeber described the 0:19:04.119 --> 0:19:06.960 consequence of one such IMF hosterity program in debt the 0:19:06.960 --> 0:19:10.879 first five thousand years. Quote. For almost two years I 0:19:10.880 --> 0:19:14.320 had lived in the highlands of Madagascar. Shortly before I arrived, 0:19:14.400 --> 0:19:16.639 there had been an outbreak of malaria. It was a 0:19:16.640 --> 0:19:19.520 particularly virulent outbreak because malaria had been wiped out in 0:19:19.600 --> 0:19:23.080 Highlight Madagascar many years before, so that after a couple 0:19:23.119 --> 0:19:26.560 of generations, most people had lost their immunity. The problem 0:19:26.640 --> 0:19:29.560 was it took money to maintain those mosquito radication programs, 0:19:29.560 --> 0:19:31.400 since there had to be periodic tests to make sure 0:19:31.440 --> 0:19:34.800 mosquitoes weren't starting to breed again, and spraying campaigns if 0:19:34.800 --> 0:19:37.520 it was discovered that they were not a lot of money. 0:19:38.160 --> 0:19:41.600 But owing to IMF impost austerity programs, the government had 0:19:41.600 --> 0:19:45.439 to cut the monitoring program. Ten thousand people died. I 0:19:45.520 --> 0:19:49.120 met young mothers grieving for lost children. One might think 0:19:49.119 --> 0:19:50.439 it would be hard to make a case that the 0:19:50.480 --> 0:19:53.000 loss of ten thousand human lives is really justified in 0:19:53.119 --> 0:19:55.080 order to ensure that City Bank wouldn't have to cut 0:19:55.080 --> 0:19:58.000 his losses on one irresponsible loan that wasn't particularly important 0:19:58.000 --> 0:20:01.480 to its balance sheet anyways. Following the old old or 0:20:01.560 --> 0:20:05.199 liberal dream of a legal framework to ensure neoliberal market economies, 0:20:06.080 --> 0:20:08.399 the new generation of neoliberals used the I m F, 0:20:08.480 --> 0:20:11.320 World Bank and other bureaucratic institutions to act as dead 0:20:11.440 --> 0:20:15.359 enforcers and the the imposed neoliberal policies from above, without anything 0:20:15.359 --> 0:20:19.000 so petty as democracy interfering with it. In fact, one 0:20:19.040 --> 0:20:21.760 of the first new liberal structural adjustments, one of a 0:20:21.800 --> 0:20:24.240 bewildering new array of terms for I m F and 0:20:24.280 --> 0:20:28.439 force austerity programs, was implemented by the Jamaican socialist Michael 0:20:28.440 --> 0:20:32.320 Manly in nineteen seventy seven, which in a single year 0:20:32.400 --> 0:20:34.560 wiped out every gain in education in public health that 0:20:34.640 --> 0:20:37.960 Madly had spent his first term building up. Similar faith 0:20:38.040 --> 0:20:41.600 would be fall health, education, and justice programs across the world. 0:20:42.200 --> 0:20:47.000 The death toll remains unknown. Venezuela would fall victim to 0:20:47.080 --> 0:20:51.840 a similar fate without the new International Economic Order. Venezuela's 0:20:51.880 --> 0:20:56.400 industrial policy imploded. As post VOLCRA shock, government debt skyrocketed. 0:20:57.359 --> 0:20:59.640 In the nineteen eighties, the government began to impose im 0:20:59.760 --> 0:21:03.680 st ctraal adjustments. Carlos Andres Perez, the man who led 0:21:03.680 --> 0:21:06.520 the industrial pushing in the nineteen seventies, was elected a 0:21:06.520 --> 0:21:08.920 second time in nineteen eighty nine, running a campaign that 0:21:08.920 --> 0:21:14.680 I've seen euphemistically described as quote against liberalization policy. It 0:21:14.720 --> 0:21:18.479 was somewhat more extreme than that, featuring lines such as 0:21:18.520 --> 0:21:20.800 calling the I M F quote a bomb that only 0:21:20.880 --> 0:21:24.440 kills people. But Perez was negotiating with the I m 0:21:24.520 --> 0:21:26.720 F behind the scenes and imposed even harsher I m 0:21:26.840 --> 0:21:29.679 F Asteria measures upon winning the election, leading to a 0:21:29.720 --> 0:21:32.240 mass uprising in nineteen eighty nine that was suppressed in 0:21:32.280 --> 0:21:34.880 a bath of blood, with hundreds killed by the army. 0:21:35.720 --> 0:21:38.520 But even more structural adjustments were imposed after Perez was 0:21:38.520 --> 0:21:43.720 deposed for corruption Nino, implemented ironically by the founder of 0:21:43.760 --> 0:21:47.800 the movement towards Socialism, Teodoro Petkoff, the head of Venezuela's 0:21:47.800 --> 0:21:51.960 planning agency in nineteen ninety six. All of Venezuela's economic 0:21:52.000 --> 0:21:55.040 crisis from the nineteen eighties until now stem from the 0:21:55.040 --> 0:21:59.760 failures of nineteen seventies industrialization without any kind of industrial economy. 0:22:00.119 --> 0:22:03.320 Even the socialist that took power in the national level 0:22:03.760 --> 0:22:07.080 were reduced to shuffling oil rents around, and with the 0:22:07.119 --> 0:22:10.120 market economy still in place, the economy is simply imploded 0:22:10.119 --> 0:22:13.800 again when wild prices fell. This is how neoliberalism comes 0:22:13.800 --> 0:22:17.520 to most countries, not as policies implemented by anything even 0:22:17.560 --> 0:22:21.159 remotely resembling the will of the people, but enforced by 0:22:21.160 --> 0:22:24.040 the international economic system itself and the bureaucrats the I 0:22:24.240 --> 0:22:26.959 m F, the World Bank, and the World Trade Organization. 0:22:27.880 --> 0:22:31.359 It is imposed by enormous states at gunpoints, constituted by 0:22:31.359 --> 0:22:33.560 the mass looting of the population in order to pay 0:22:33.760 --> 0:22:37.680 corporate debt. Masters new liberals have effectively achieved their goal 0:22:37.760 --> 0:22:41.359 and transcendent democratic politics entirely from their purchase in the 0:22:41.359 --> 0:22:44.760 international bureaucracy. They can dictate policy to even hostile leaders. 0:22:45.880 --> 0:22:48.600 But tomorrow we'll see what happens when they take power domestically. 0:22:48.600 --> 0:22:50.920 As we would conclude our Neoliberalism series with a man 0:22:51.080 --> 0:23:08.679 rotting in Hell with Paul Walker Ronald Reagan, Yeah, welcome 0:23:08.720 --> 0:23:12.040 to it could happen here a show about things falling 0:23:12.080 --> 0:23:16.679 apart and is for one final time this week about 0:23:17.640 --> 0:23:22.159 why and how things have fallen apart in this specific way. Um, 0:23:22.160 --> 0:23:25.920 I'm I'm I'm your host, Christopher, and today with me 0:23:26.000 --> 0:23:30.880 I have Garrison. Well, Garrison, Hello, how you doing. I'm 0:23:30.920 --> 0:23:34.080 doing fine. We're gonna talk about something that is not fine. 0:23:34.160 --> 0:23:36.399 It's not fine at all, is in fact extremely grim 0:23:36.440 --> 0:23:39.320 and bad, which is part four of our series of 0:23:39.359 --> 0:23:43.439 deal Liberalism, i e. All of the bad things happened 0:23:43.440 --> 0:23:46.879 at once, so in in in in all last episode 0:23:46.880 --> 0:23:49.520 we talked about how throughout throughout most of the Third 0:23:49.520 --> 0:23:52.240 World or you know, what was at the time known 0:23:52.240 --> 0:23:56.880 as the Third World, new liberalism is not really imposed 0:23:56.880 --> 0:23:59.360 by people voting for it. It's mostly imposed by either 0:23:59.440 --> 0:24:03.159 external fours is, via coup or by just the I 0:24:03.280 --> 0:24:07.240 M f going okay, just we're running the country now. Um, 0:24:07.359 --> 0:24:09.959 but this this, yeah, We're we're gonna shift our focus 0:24:10.000 --> 0:24:14.080 a bit this episode with the people who were I 0:24:14.080 --> 0:24:18.639 don't know, unfortunate enough, misguided enough decided that they hated 0:24:18.680 --> 0:24:23.280 each other enough to actually choose neoliberalism for themselves. Now, 0:24:23.640 --> 0:24:25.840 one of the sort of stories we've been tracing here 0:24:25.840 --> 0:24:29.200 on sort of a very broad arc is the reaction 0:24:29.240 --> 0:24:31.440 by Neil Bulls to kind of kind of compromise. It 0:24:31.440 --> 0:24:33.560 has been worked out between labor and capital, particularly the 0:24:33.720 --> 0:24:36.639 US after sort of the open class warfare in the 0:24:36.680 --> 0:24:40.440 directeen thirties. And you know, there's essentially there's there's a 0:24:40.520 --> 0:24:44.560 kind of deal that's set up informally, which is so 0:24:45.600 --> 0:24:49.080 the we're working class will stop literally constantly going on 0:24:49.119 --> 0:24:51.800 strike and showing up the strikes with like enormous numbers 0:24:51.800 --> 0:24:54.560 of guns and shooting at people, and they will you know, 0:24:54.600 --> 0:24:56.960 stop trying to overshow the government in exchange, the state 0:24:57.000 --> 0:24:59.399 gives you welfare programs. The state will give you a house. 0:24:59.560 --> 0:25:01.160 And this is the is particularly after what we'd two 0:25:01.440 --> 0:25:03.679 the Americans say it just you know, does this massive 0:25:03.760 --> 0:25:06.120 homeownersial campaign. And you know, if if you're if you're 0:25:06.119 --> 0:25:09.000 if you're you know, a union worker, particularly if you're 0:25:09.040 --> 0:25:11.920 a white man, like this, this you know, working working, 0:25:11.920 --> 0:25:13.399 working one of these union jobs will put you into 0:25:13.440 --> 0:25:15.040 the middle class. You can take vacations, you can have 0:25:15.040 --> 0:25:18.159 a house, um, you can get pensions. Your unions are 0:25:18.240 --> 0:25:19.840 legal now, which is the thing that like you know, 0:25:19.880 --> 0:25:24.840 hadn't happened before. And this is essentially you know, this 0:25:24.880 --> 0:25:28.440 is essentially a kind of insurgency tool um. The goal 0:25:28.480 --> 0:25:31.960 of this is to stop people from you know, doing 0:25:31.960 --> 0:25:33.960 the kinds of revolts. So we're happening in at the dirties, 0:25:34.680 --> 0:25:37.760 but by the nineteen seventies it's becoming very clear that 0:25:37.800 --> 0:25:40.399 this sort of the like can't it can't really be 0:25:40.480 --> 0:25:43.679 maintained because it's too expensive for sort of the capital 0:25:43.720 --> 0:25:47.080 states to maintain and trying to maintain both well. And 0:25:47.480 --> 0:25:49.880 you know, the secondary thing here is is, you know, okay, 0:25:49.920 --> 0:25:52.400 so this deal specifically goes out to white men right 0:25:53.280 --> 0:25:56.120 now throughout the sixties and seventies, you get a bunch 0:25:56.119 --> 0:25:59.080 of other people who are not white men attempting to 0:25:59.200 --> 0:26:01.040 enter the workplace in time when you get the same bargain, 0:26:01.160 --> 0:26:04.040 and you know, they're in a lot of ways significantly 0:26:04.080 --> 0:26:08.520 on militants, and this causes en normal sponsetermentional strife. You 0:26:08.600 --> 0:26:11.840 get you know, the US is murdering the black panthers. 0:26:11.920 --> 0:26:16.520 You get similar stuff in the UK. And the neoliberals 0:26:16.600 --> 0:26:22.040 basically are the people who just fully called this to 0:26:22.119 --> 0:26:24.240 tant off and are you know, essentially going to return 0:26:24.280 --> 0:26:27.359 to full scale class war. And so now now we 0:26:27.400 --> 0:26:29.480 are we are finally getting to Reagan and Thatcher and 0:26:29.640 --> 0:26:31.719 one day we will do a full episode about how 0:26:31.800 --> 0:26:35.280 Ronald Reagan, in a weird, shadowy cabal of Italian intelligence 0:26:35.280 --> 0:26:37.960 services rigged the nineteen eighty election by planting fake stories 0:26:38.000 --> 0:26:42.280 about Jimmy Carter's brother and the press, which is if 0:26:42.280 --> 0:26:45.800 you hear the story, Garrison, No, but it sounds like 0:26:45.920 --> 0:26:50.360 regular media manipulation that happens all the time. Now, Yeah, yeah, 0:26:50.440 --> 0:26:52.560 it's it's yeah, there, there's, there's there's there's there's a 0:26:52.600 --> 0:26:56.679 whole three line there because you know a lot of 0:26:56.680 --> 0:26:59.520 those like same kind of intelligence tactics are gonna be 0:26:59.600 --> 0:27:01.320 used South I Rock war, and there's there's this whole 0:27:01.359 --> 0:27:03.120 sort of thing. Then you know that there's also the 0:27:03.119 --> 0:27:07.000 specific Italian angle of uh yeah, the Italian States being 0:27:07.080 --> 0:27:10.960 run by this rogue Masonic lodge led by a fascist 0:27:11.400 --> 0:27:13.920 and it's it's a time this is all going on there. 0:27:13.920 --> 0:27:15.879 But that's you know, I'm just I'm just thinking like 0:27:16.080 --> 0:27:20.080 Hunter Biden laptop and all of that. Yeah, yeah stuff. 0:27:20.119 --> 0:27:23.200 It's like, oh so that's just the same playbook. Yeah, 0:27:23.240 --> 0:27:25.119 it's it's the same thing, except like they were like 0:27:25.200 --> 0:27:28.040 actual intelligence people running it instead of just sort of 0:27:28.080 --> 0:27:33.440 like whatever. Tucker Carlson Tucker Carlos said, Glenn Greenwall trying 0:27:33.440 --> 0:27:37.400 to get people care about this thing that just nobody 0:27:37.440 --> 0:27:40.439 gives a single ship about. Yeah, you know, it was, 0:27:40.480 --> 0:27:42.760 it was, but the Ages version of it was significantly 0:27:42.760 --> 0:27:45.600 more effective. And you know the product of this is 0:27:45.640 --> 0:27:50.879 that Reagan sort of Reagan finds like the secret sauce 0:27:51.040 --> 0:27:52.879 for right wing politics, which is kind of you know, 0:27:53.960 --> 0:27:57.240 in in in some ways, and Nixon had been trying 0:27:57.240 --> 0:28:01.760 to develop it hadn't quite gotten right, which is no, yeah, yeah, yeah, 0:28:01.760 --> 0:28:03.160 he he figures out that you know, if you want 0:28:03.160 --> 0:28:04.880 to do ne liberalism, if you want to destroy the unions, 0:28:04.920 --> 0:28:06.359 you want to stroy the welfare state, the way you 0:28:06.400 --> 0:28:09.320 do it is basically a combination of racist tax and 0:28:09.359 --> 0:28:14.160 welfare recipients and you mobilize new religious right. And this 0:28:14.200 --> 0:28:16.360 is extremely effective and it's but I think it's also 0:28:16.440 --> 0:28:19.639 interesting in worth noting that, you know, if if you 0:28:19.680 --> 0:28:21.760 got all the back to episode one, like this is 0:28:21.800 --> 0:28:24.880 this is rope keys like white nationalism, like sure German 0:28:24.920 --> 0:28:27.400 white nationalism. Thing is this is explicitly a ropeky sort 0:28:27.400 --> 0:28:30.040 of strategy for implenting the liberalism. Was the problem is 0:28:30.119 --> 0:28:32.399 he was German and Catholic, which meant that like it 0:28:32.440 --> 0:28:35.679 could never work in the US, but you know, you 0:28:35.760 --> 0:28:38.200 get Reagan, suddenly you get the American version of it, 0:28:38.280 --> 0:28:42.640 that is, you know, white but American, and then also 0:28:43.000 --> 0:28:44.640 works off the sort of of off of the sort 0:28:44.640 --> 0:28:50.600 of mass Protestantism in the US, and this becomes a 0:28:50.600 --> 0:28:55.680 force study is responsible for like almost every bad thing 0:28:55.720 --> 0:28:59.720 that exists today in some form or another, a lot 0:28:59.720 --> 0:29:01.640 of them. Yeah, I mean not not often, but you know, 0:29:01.760 --> 0:29:07.479 I the thing, things go extremely badly. And so Reagan 0:29:07.520 --> 0:29:09.960 wins this election and then almost exactly the same time, 0:29:10.520 --> 0:29:14.080 Margaret Thatcher wins the wins her election in in the UK, 0:29:14.320 --> 0:29:18.600 and that the combination of those two things, and also, 0:29:18.720 --> 0:29:21.120 as we talked about last episode, the Vulcar Shock, where 0:29:21.720 --> 0:29:26.800 Vulcar raises the interest rates raised, defendation become so Vulcar 0:29:26.880 --> 0:29:30.320 is installed weirdly, not by Ronald Reagan but by Jimmy Carter, 0:29:31.000 --> 0:29:33.120 but is given this sort of mandate to just do whatever, 0:29:33.440 --> 0:29:35.479 literally do whatever you have to to to get inflation 0:29:35.520 --> 0:29:37.120 under control. The thing that he decides to do is 0:29:37.160 --> 0:29:40.600 just literally nuke the entire world economy. You know, when 0:29:40.640 --> 0:29:42.560 we talked about the effects of this had on sort 0:29:42.560 --> 0:29:45.520 of the world in the last episode. But in the 0:29:45.600 --> 0:29:48.560 US this sets off a recession at last, basically from 0:29:48.600 --> 0:29:52.280 like nineteen seventy nine to Night two. At the height 0:29:52.320 --> 0:29:55.000 of it, it's like it's I think we finally got 0:29:55.040 --> 0:29:59.480 more people unemployed during the pandemic, but I'm like sure 0:29:59.520 --> 0:30:02.560 that between World War two, in the pandemic, that was 0:30:02.600 --> 0:30:04.360 the single largest number of people who have been unemployed 0:30:04.360 --> 0:30:07.480 in the US, which just yeah, it was just apocle, 0:30:07.600 --> 0:30:10.280 just apocle devastation. And you know, there's there's there's a 0:30:10.280 --> 0:30:12.280 whole thing here where the head of the a f 0:30:12.360 --> 0:30:14.680 l c. I oh is literally begging Vulcar like, please 0:30:14.720 --> 0:30:17.040 don't do this, like we can get inflation under control after, 0:30:17.280 --> 0:30:19.600 you know, after the economy recovers, and vocals just like no. 0:30:20.840 --> 0:30:23.280 The consequence of this is that you have you have 0:30:23.280 --> 0:30:25.560 an economy in which is no MOUs number people unemployed, 0:30:26.360 --> 0:30:31.280 and the unions are weak, and both Reagan and Thatcher 0:30:32.720 --> 0:30:35.600 sort of see this. Now the unions in the UK 0:30:35.720 --> 0:30:37.840 are in a snifful better position of the American unions. 0:30:39.520 --> 0:30:42.720 Reagan is able to sort of smash the American unions 0:30:42.800 --> 0:30:45.120 very quickly. There's there's the you know, the famous air 0:30:45.120 --> 0:30:47.640 traffic control strike where a bunch of American air traffic 0:30:47.720 --> 0:30:51.920 controllers go on strike technically illegally, and Reagan just has 0:30:52.080 --> 0:30:54.600 literally every single one of them fired and replaces them 0:30:54.640 --> 0:30:58.800 with just like like like people from flight school, like 0:30:58.880 --> 0:31:01.400 people who just just like literally anyone he can just 0:31:01.440 --> 0:31:03.440 like pull off the street who sort of kind of 0:31:03.480 --> 0:31:05.600 knows how to how to land an aircraft, like they 0:31:05.600 --> 0:31:07.840 put on people from the military. It's it's just like 0:31:07.880 --> 0:31:11.880 this absolutely wild sort of feet of strike breaking. And 0:31:11.920 --> 0:31:14.720 then you know, and when when when that falls and 0:31:14.960 --> 0:31:19.160 that that strike fails, you know, the air traffic controllers, well, okay, 0:31:19.200 --> 0:31:21.320 funnily so, the air traff controllers had actually backed Reagan. 0:31:21.360 --> 0:31:23.400 They were like the only union that backed Reagan in 0:31:23.440 --> 0:31:26.360 the election, and they immediately just get you know, they 0:31:26.400 --> 0:31:32.560 get gutted for it, which, like I have mixed feelings 0:31:32.600 --> 0:31:35.120 about because like, on the one hand, like, yeah, that's that's, 0:31:35.160 --> 0:31:36.760 that's what you get. But on the other hand, this 0:31:36.800 --> 0:31:40.240 is basically what the stories this, this is the consequences 0:31:40.240 --> 0:31:42.680 that this is basically what the stories like trade unions 0:31:42.680 --> 0:31:45.240 in the US because at this at this point, everyone 0:31:45.280 --> 0:31:47.400 realizes that the unions a week and they just start. 0:31:47.520 --> 0:31:49.240 You know, there's you get to the point where employers 0:31:49.240 --> 0:31:52.200 are deliberately provoking strikes so that they can just fire 0:31:52.200 --> 0:31:56.600 all the unionized employees. And it's extremely effective. In in Britain, 0:31:57.000 --> 0:32:01.000 the fight is a lot more intense um in in 0:32:01.160 --> 0:32:05.080 in Ninity four, Thatcher cuts cold, Like basically Thatchery wants 0:32:05.080 --> 0:32:08.120 to provoke a fight with with the coal unions, and 0:32:08.920 --> 0:32:10.800 so she basically wants to shut down a whole bunch 0:32:10.800 --> 0:32:14.920 of coal production and fire like twenty miners, and the 0:32:14.960 --> 0:32:16.680 miners go on strike, and they go on strike for 0:32:16.720 --> 0:32:20.040 over a year. But Thatcher had basically stockpiled enough cold 0:32:20.040 --> 0:32:21.760 to stay off the worst effects of the strike. And 0:32:21.800 --> 0:32:25.040 then she makes these incredibly elaborate network of deals with 0:32:25.760 --> 0:32:29.360 like She's like this this whole scab driver like union, 0:32:29.640 --> 0:32:32.840 like basical basically this whole network of scab drivers, like 0:32:32.880 --> 0:32:34.400 make sure you can move the coal around while the 0:32:34.400 --> 0:32:38.640 strike's going on. There there's all of this stuff, and 0:32:39.680 --> 0:32:41.800 you know, and and she eventually is able to trust 0:32:41.800 --> 0:32:44.520 the coal strike and this also just just completely annihilates 0:32:45.360 --> 0:32:47.760 like the British trade union movement, I mean union participation, 0:32:48.320 --> 0:32:52.000 I think dreaming Thatcher's term alone falls by and it's 0:32:52.040 --> 0:32:54.920 gotten way worse since then. So so with with those 0:32:54.920 --> 0:32:59.040 two incidents, the air traffic control and the coal did 0:32:59.160 --> 0:33:02.480 did those just and of make people be disillusioned? Or 0:33:02.600 --> 0:33:05.520 did that just like pave the way for similar tactics 0:33:05.560 --> 0:33:08.680 to be acceptable for every other union that tried to 0:33:08.720 --> 0:33:11.440 do the same thing both And then the everthing was 0:33:11.560 --> 0:33:15.000 fear because you know, so with the air traffic controllers, right, 0:33:15.000 --> 0:33:17.719 the air traffic controllers are you know, these are the 0:33:17.800 --> 0:33:21.360 most highly skilled like people people in there there. These 0:33:21.400 --> 0:33:23.160 are a bunch of people who are incredibly highly skilled, 0:33:23.160 --> 0:33:25.200 and they're in there, in there in a logistic industry, right, 0:33:25.240 --> 0:33:26.680 so you know, in theory, these are the people who 0:33:26.720 --> 0:33:29.840 have like the maximum amount of impact if they would 0:33:29.840 --> 0:33:33.080 go on strike. And when Reagan shows that you can 0:33:33.120 --> 0:33:35.680 literally just fire twenty four thousand people of like the 0:33:35.960 --> 0:33:38.240 most highly skilled sort of workers in the in the US, 0:33:38.320 --> 0:33:40.040 you can fire them and just break the strike and 0:33:40.080 --> 0:33:42.840 nothing will happen, and you know the result is total 0:33:42.840 --> 0:33:45.200 defeat and none of these people ever work. Again. That 0:33:45.280 --> 0:33:49.320 basically spreads this massive wave of fear through the union 0:33:49.320 --> 0:33:51.520 movements because you know, if they can fire those guys, 0:33:51.560 --> 0:33:54.320 that can fire anyone and then you know, the the 0:33:54.400 --> 0:33:57.360 employers should start doing it. And the other thing that's 0:33:57.360 --> 0:34:02.479 been happening here is that for really since the end 0:34:02.520 --> 0:34:06.880 of the forties, the unions have kind of So we'll 0:34:07.000 --> 0:34:09.840 we'll talk about this more in in in an interview 0:34:09.880 --> 0:34:12.279 that's gonna come out probably next week about the sort 0:34:12.280 --> 0:34:16.839 of the history American union movements, but American unions basically 0:34:17.080 --> 0:34:20.160 so American, like the union movement was built by radical 0:34:20.239 --> 0:34:25.520 organizers and in the forties and sort of moving on 0:34:25.600 --> 0:34:28.319 from there, all these people get expelled from the labor 0:34:28.320 --> 0:34:34.839 movement and labor fights this basically incredibly intense battle against 0:34:34.840 --> 0:34:37.840 its own left flank, and you have you know, like, 0:34:37.880 --> 0:34:40.800 for example, in in there's this thing called the Dodge 0:34:40.800 --> 0:34:42.960 Revolutionary Union Movement, right, which is a bunch of mostly 0:34:43.000 --> 0:34:46.640 black workers in Detroit, who are you know, there there 0:34:46.760 --> 0:34:49.040 there there there forming unions. They're going on strike, but 0:34:49.040 --> 0:34:52.040 they're also fighting against the the u a W because 0:34:52.040 --> 0:34:54.160 the U a W is cooperating too closer but the 0:34:54.200 --> 0:34:56.759 bosses etcetera, etcetera, etcetera. And there's there's there's these you know, 0:34:56.800 --> 0:35:00.560 there's there's there's basically this battle between like not even 0:35:00.600 --> 0:35:03.360 just basically between the unions ranked and file and the 0:35:03.440 --> 0:35:06.880 radicals and the sort of business union management, and in 0:35:07.000 --> 0:35:10.960 fighting that battle, the unions had basically like massively weakened 0:35:11.000 --> 0:35:13.640 themselves and then you know, and bye bye bye. By 0:35:13.640 --> 0:35:17.080 the time you hit the eighties, especially in the US, 0:35:17.120 --> 0:35:18.640 the unions are just sort of a shell out their 0:35:18.680 --> 0:35:21.560 form ourselves, and and Reagan just sort of like smashes 0:35:21.600 --> 0:35:25.319 them aside. And Thatcher the British unions are much stronger, 0:35:25.400 --> 0:35:28.520 but you know, I mean that Thatcher is preparing to 0:35:28.640 --> 0:35:31.239 like like there she she has plans to like the 0:35:31.360 --> 0:35:33.360 army is going to come in and suppress the strike. 0:35:33.440 --> 0:35:36.120 There's these and especially there's there's just, i mean just 0:35:36.200 --> 0:35:40.560 an absolutely incredible amount of police violence. Um that's you know, 0:35:40.600 --> 0:35:42.440 I mean, this is this is something that had happened 0:35:42.480 --> 0:35:45.600 before dream strikes, but the the the the level of 0:35:45.640 --> 0:35:51.160 intensity of it is just like massively increased. And there's 0:35:51.160 --> 0:35:54.839 also another thing that's happening basically at the same time 0:35:54.880 --> 0:35:56.840 with this, which is squeezing the unions from the other side, 0:35:57.600 --> 0:36:02.719 which is there's this, I guess you could call it 0:36:02.760 --> 0:36:06.640 like an internal class war inside the ruling class between 0:36:06.680 --> 0:36:09.400 well specifically inside inside of the sort of corporate management 0:36:09.440 --> 0:36:13.880 between the sort of traditional like manager CEO class and 0:36:14.239 --> 0:36:16.520 the sort of like I guess you could call them, 0:36:16.760 --> 0:36:19.480 I don't know, the sort of Wall Street finance bank 0:36:19.560 --> 0:36:23.279 types and so so yeah. So one of the other 0:36:23.320 --> 0:36:26.360 things that that happens at the end of you know, 0:36:26.560 --> 0:36:29.040 basically after the war is the sort of class compromise 0:36:29.160 --> 0:36:30.920 was talking about like this, this happens inside of the 0:36:30.960 --> 0:36:33.839 company too, and people start to see the corporation as 0:36:33.840 --> 0:36:36.680 like a social institution and it has you know, it's like, well, okay, 0:36:36.680 --> 0:36:41.280 so there's this alliance between middle management and the workers, 0:36:41.280 --> 0:36:42.600 and you know, it's like, okay, so we we both 0:36:42.600 --> 0:36:45.680 worked with each other, and you know, the compromises that 0:36:45.719 --> 0:36:47.839 you guys got to have unions, but the unions won't 0:36:47.880 --> 0:36:49.879 sort of disrupt production. Will all work together and we'll 0:36:49.880 --> 0:36:52.920 just make like I don't know, we'll we'll make really 0:36:53.080 --> 0:36:56.520 really good ballpoint pens together. And so yeah, you have 0:36:56.560 --> 0:36:59.720 this alliance between sort of middle managements and these unions 0:36:59.719 --> 0:37:01.759 and and this this is embedded into the structure of 0:37:01.800 --> 0:37:03.439 the corporation because you know, you not you not only 0:37:03.480 --> 0:37:07.440 have the unions, but you have corporations paying pensions. One 0:37:07.480 --> 0:37:11.840 of the things that that Reagan does is that Reagan starts, 0:37:12.640 --> 0:37:16.000 you know, Reagan does this massive series of financial deregulations. 0:37:16.120 --> 0:37:18.799 And the other part of this agreement basically had been 0:37:18.880 --> 0:37:21.920 that like the high level of finance class has sort 0:37:21.960 --> 0:37:24.040 of stayed out of the way of management, and so 0:37:24.120 --> 0:37:26.880 management kind of like you know, the you get this 0:37:26.960 --> 0:37:29.520 like this independent sort of CEO class that that's that's 0:37:29.520 --> 0:37:32.080 a distinct thing that you know that there people who 0:37:32.120 --> 0:37:34.080 come up through the company who managers and worked away 0:37:34.080 --> 0:37:35.560 at the top. And this is a distinct thing from 0:37:35.560 --> 0:37:38.160 sort of the finance people who are like they're not 0:37:38.200 --> 0:37:40.040 supposed to be allowed, like you know, the touch production. 0:37:40.960 --> 0:37:45.320 But in the nineteen eighties, the finance people start to 0:37:45.360 --> 0:37:48.560 look at this and go, wait, hold on, why are 0:37:48.640 --> 0:37:52.200 we not running things? And the finance people have because 0:37:52.200 --> 0:37:53.480 they have there are two things on their side. One 0:37:53.520 --> 0:37:55.640 they have a sort of neoliberal ideology, and the second 0:37:55.640 --> 0:38:01.520 thing they have is so Michael Milken he figures out 0:38:01.680 --> 0:38:03.800 how to do this thing called a leverage buyout option. 0:38:04.600 --> 0:38:07.000 It's it's it's a it's a kind of complicated financial instrument. 0:38:07.360 --> 0:38:10.040 The short and simple explanation of what it is is 0:38:10.040 --> 0:38:14.560 he figures out a way too basically go into a 0:38:14.600 --> 0:38:17.439 bunch of debt and he he gets he gets people 0:38:17.440 --> 0:38:19.759 to givehim a bunch of money, like in the form 0:38:19.760 --> 0:38:22.520 of these bonds, and then he uses it just buy 0:38:22.520 --> 0:38:25.319 out entire companies. He buys one percent of the company. 0:38:25.360 --> 0:38:27.240 And if you own fitment of the company, now you control, 0:38:27.320 --> 0:38:31.000 you have controlling interest. And so he goes in and 0:38:31.080 --> 0:38:33.040 she just he just raises the stock prices of all 0:38:33.080 --> 0:38:35.480 these companies. And now you know, but I mean, now 0:38:35.760 --> 0:38:38.400 he's gone into an enormous amount of debts right in 0:38:38.520 --> 0:38:40.799 order to buy in order to buy this company, and 0:38:40.840 --> 0:38:42.600 so you know, in order to pay off that debt, 0:38:42.600 --> 0:38:44.920 he just starts strip money in the company. And so 0:38:44.960 --> 0:38:47.359 he starts, you know, anything that can be sold for 0:38:47.480 --> 0:38:49.160 money that he can put in his pocket to pay 0:38:49.160 --> 0:38:51.719 off his debt starts getting sold. And you know, every 0:38:51.760 --> 0:38:53.680 every anything the corporate that the company is doing, it 0:38:53.719 --> 0:38:56.560 doesn't immediately make money or doesn't immediately raise the stock 0:38:56.560 --> 0:39:00.719 price gets cut. And so you know, there there, there, 0:39:00.719 --> 0:39:04.040 there are. There are two major things that a company 0:39:04.080 --> 0:39:06.480 has that don't immediately make money and don't raise the 0:39:06.520 --> 0:39:09.520 stock price, and that is pensions and research and development. 0:39:10.600 --> 0:39:14.120 And this this has you know, this, this, this, this, 0:39:14.120 --> 0:39:16.239 this becomes known as the sort of this is the 0:39:16.280 --> 0:39:20.080 hustle takeover waves. It gets rebranded as mergers and acquisitions 0:39:20.080 --> 0:39:22.200 in the nineties, but it's it's this huge sort of 0:39:22.920 --> 0:39:26.760 wave that's these corporate scripts corporate America, and it turns 0:39:26.800 --> 0:39:30.120 the corporation from this kind of social body where it's like, well, 0:39:30.160 --> 0:39:34.360 everyone's cooperating and companies sort of have this responsibility to 0:39:34.440 --> 0:39:37.480 like provide for their workers and provide sort of for 0:39:37.520 --> 0:39:40.560 like the social good into literally the only like the 0:39:40.880 --> 0:39:43.960 single entire purpose of any company is to raise the 0:39:44.000 --> 0:39:50.399 stock price. And this, yeah, this is really bad. Yeah, 0:39:50.440 --> 0:39:52.600 and and and you know, the part about it that's 0:39:52.640 --> 0:39:56.240 awful is that, you know, okay, so all all literally 0:39:56.320 --> 0:39:59.680 all a corporate rad has to do in order to 0:40:01.080 --> 0:40:02.920 buy out one of these companies is be able to 0:40:03.120 --> 0:40:04.960 is be able to offer a price for the stock 0:40:05.000 --> 0:40:07.960 that's higher from the stock price of the company now. 0:40:08.000 --> 0:40:10.400 And this means even so they're they're they're there's a 0:40:10.480 --> 0:40:14.800 very famous series of battles they buy out. An enormous 0:40:14.840 --> 0:40:17.080 number of companies get bought out into strip minds like this, 0:40:17.840 --> 0:40:19.480 and you know, and the over and again, these are 0:40:19.520 --> 0:40:21.920 these are very very profitable companies. Right. These are companies 0:40:21.960 --> 0:40:24.040 with large research development budget. These are companies that are 0:40:24.080 --> 0:40:27.759 making enormous amounts of money and they're just completely destroyed 0:40:28.239 --> 0:40:30.640 in order to sort of just like satiate these just 0:40:30.880 --> 0:40:34.920 like absolute ghoul corporate like vulture rader people. This is 0:40:34.960 --> 0:40:37.120 you know, if you remember, might be too young for this, 0:40:37.160 --> 0:40:41.120 but Romney's campaign for so yeah, one of one of 0:40:41.120 --> 0:40:44.600 the reasons why Mitt Romney loses is that like he's 0:40:44.640 --> 0:40:47.000 one of these guys like he's he's like he's the 0:40:47.040 --> 0:40:49.719 big bang capital guy and everyone's kind of looked at 0:40:49.800 --> 0:40:52.720 him and goes like, you're the reason we'd like guide 0:40:52.760 --> 0:40:55.719 to this mess in the first place. But the problem, 0:40:55.760 --> 0:40:57.480 the problem is that these people who have enough money 0:40:57.520 --> 0:40:58.759 and they have enough power if they were able to 0:40:58.760 --> 0:41:02.080 do this and in order to stop them, So either 0:41:02.200 --> 0:41:04.680 there there there's a massive there's a massive fight. A 0:41:04.719 --> 0:41:07.680 bunch of people try to take over good Year, who 0:41:07.800 --> 0:41:09.520 you know, they make the tires, they have the blimps, 0:41:10.320 --> 0:41:14.799 and Goodyear CEO is like fanatically opposed to all of 0:41:14.840 --> 0:41:18.120 this because you know, he's he's from the old ceo 0:41:18.239 --> 0:41:20.640 crop who's like, well, okay, we're here to like make 0:41:20.719 --> 0:41:24.040 things instead of you know, increased stock prices. But the 0:41:24.040 --> 0:41:25.719 problem is the only way he can save off the 0:41:25.760 --> 0:41:28.480 raiders is by increasing a stock price. And the only 0:41:28.480 --> 0:41:30.600 way to increase stock prices is by doing the things 0:41:30.600 --> 0:41:32.760 the corporate raiders already doing. So he starts slashing contains, 0:41:32.760 --> 0:41:34.880 he starts slashing with your development budgets. Yeah, and this 0:41:34.920 --> 0:41:37.560 and this, this sort of cycles because now you have 0:41:37.760 --> 0:41:40.360 you know, there's there, there's it's it's it's you're not 0:41:40.400 --> 0:41:43.120 only having pressure from you know, like the government that's 0:41:43.120 --> 0:41:46.840 that's anti union. The corporations themselves are being forced to 0:41:46.880 --> 0:41:49.520 become more anti union because they're you know, they now 0:41:49.560 --> 0:41:51.960 have this pressure on them from the top down, from 0:41:52.000 --> 0:41:54.480 from these sort of these sort of finance schools, and 0:41:54.920 --> 0:41:57.840 the finance schools in a lot of ways just the 0:41:57.920 --> 0:42:00.799 perfect nilable subjects, right because they they only see the 0:42:00.800 --> 0:42:02.600 world in money. They see everything as a market that 0:42:02.680 --> 0:42:05.360 they literally think that like they they are like these 0:42:05.440 --> 0:42:08.080 like shamans if if if there's a really good ethnography 0:42:08.080 --> 0:42:12.440 that I've plugged before on here called liquidated and an 0:42:12.480 --> 0:42:16.000 ethnography and void yet liquidated an ethnography of Wall Street, 0:42:16.400 --> 0:42:18.839 where an anthropologist goes onto Wall Street and works there 0:42:18.880 --> 0:42:21.160 for a while and then you cannot a bunch of interviews, 0:42:21.160 --> 0:42:23.319 doesn't it doesn't adempological stuff. And the way they talk 0:42:23.360 --> 0:42:25.719 about the market, they literally talk about as if they're 0:42:25.800 --> 0:42:28.640 channeling it, right, like it's like something and they're like, 0:42:29.239 --> 0:42:32.520 these are yeah, these are these are that's what's one 0:42:32.560 --> 0:42:36.520 of the new gods of of our world? That yeah, 0:42:36.560 --> 0:42:39.719 that's I mean, that's that's not a uncommon term of 0:42:39.760 --> 0:42:42.520 phrase to describe stuff like this. Yeah, and and what 0:42:42.520 --> 0:42:44.160 what what What I think is interesting about it, though, 0:42:44.239 --> 0:42:47.279 is that you know that conception of the market of 0:42:47.320 --> 0:42:50.960 like every person is just like a peer like completely 0:42:51.000 --> 0:42:55.520 socially unbounds like thing of capital that you, oh, well, okay, 0:42:55.560 --> 0:42:56.960 if you lose your job here, you can just move 0:42:57.040 --> 0:43:00.279 another firm. Right, So this makes sense side of the 0:43:00.280 --> 0:43:02.560 context of Wall Street, because these people like like these 0:43:02.560 --> 0:43:04.520 Wall Street firms they have they have like like thirty 0:43:04.960 --> 0:43:07.239 turned over a year, and so all these people are 0:43:07.280 --> 0:43:09.319 constantly being fired and shuffle onto the next job, and 0:43:09.360 --> 0:43:12.520 fired and shuffle on to the next job, and so 0:43:12.600 --> 0:43:15.120 you know, they so they they do they do this 0:43:15.239 --> 0:43:17.600 very common sort of fallacy thing where they assume that 0:43:17.600 --> 0:43:19.160 because this is the way that it works for them, 0:43:19.200 --> 0:43:20.759 but this is the way it's gonna work for everyone else. 0:43:21.680 --> 0:43:23.160 And then they genuine and a lot of these people 0:43:23.200 --> 0:43:25.279 genuinely believe this. They're like, well, okay, so the things 0:43:25.280 --> 0:43:26.840 we're gonna with, things that we're about to do, like 0:43:26.880 --> 0:43:28.839 you know, when we destroy these workers entire lives, when 0:43:28.840 --> 0:43:30.759 we you know, when we close their factories, when we 0:43:30.800 --> 0:43:34.719 take their pensions, when we literally destroyed like every community 0:43:34.719 --> 0:43:37.000 and every like thing that's every just in your lives, 0:43:37.000 --> 0:43:38.440 they're like, oh, they'll just pick themselves up and go 0:43:38.440 --> 0:43:40.520 to another place and they'll be fine, because you know, 0:43:40.600 --> 0:43:44.520 if you're if you're you know, a Wall Street finance school, like, yeah, 0:43:44.760 --> 0:43:46.880 that's that's what happens when you get fired every three months. 0:43:48.160 --> 0:43:52.400 And so these people, these people basically take control of 0:43:53.880 --> 0:43:55.879 the entire corporate sector. They do they do this very 0:43:55.960 --> 0:43:58.200 quickly by you know, they start this and in the 0:43:58.200 --> 0:44:02.200 sort of early eighties and uh, Milliken, the guy who 0:44:02.280 --> 0:44:07.120 comes up with the junk bonds leveraged buyout scheme, like 0:44:07.200 --> 0:44:09.560 he he goes to jail for I think securities fraud. 0:44:09.560 --> 0:44:11.640 They get him for fraud, but it doesn't it a 0:44:11.680 --> 0:44:16.000 lot of those guys got yeah, all of these people, 0:44:16.200 --> 0:44:19.160 Like again, all of these people are just doing crime, 0:44:19.719 --> 0:44:24.160 Like now, yeah, that's how finance standards, this is how 0:44:25.080 --> 0:44:27.040 this is how the Action Park guy got kicked out. 0:44:27.040 --> 0:44:31.560 You got kicked out doing all the same stuff. And again, 0:44:31.680 --> 0:44:33.439 I want to put this out, like the stuff they're 0:44:33.480 --> 0:44:36.920 doing is so illegal that like even the Reagan administration 0:44:37.080 --> 0:44:40.279 was like, no, we have to prosecute you. Like it's like, 0:44:40.880 --> 0:44:44.440 this is the this is the Ronald Reagan Justice Departments, 0:44:44.760 --> 0:44:49.799 and they're like it was it was so much crib. Yeah, 0:44:49.840 --> 0:44:52.480 it's it's really bad. And and you know the result 0:44:52.520 --> 0:44:57.799 of this is just basically the total visceration of of 0:44:57.920 --> 0:45:02.319 the working class, just like at and movements and you know, 0:45:02.360 --> 0:45:04.560 all the left wing parties are sort of shaped by this. 0:45:04.680 --> 0:45:07.280 And you know, and you know, we we've been focusing 0:45:07.320 --> 0:45:11.040 on the US and UH and the UK here, but 0:45:11.120 --> 0:45:12.799 this is not the only place this happens. And you know, 0:45:13.000 --> 0:45:16.040 so one of the you know, like this, this happens, this, 0:45:16.040 --> 0:45:19.200 this also starts happening like in socialist states. Um and 0:45:19.320 --> 0:45:21.360 we talked about this in more detail in our interview 0:45:21.440 --> 0:45:25.600 with Arnessa Kusutra about Bosnia, but one of the big 0:45:25.640 --> 0:45:29.359 things that Miloshevik is doing in Yugoslavia. And when when 0:45:29.360 --> 0:45:31.320 he takes power and he starts like actually being a 0:45:31.719 --> 0:45:34.120 real political force in nink in eighties, is he starts 0:45:34.160 --> 0:45:37.279 doing basically all of the same stuff that that that 0:45:37.320 --> 0:45:39.920 reagaan at thatacher doing. He starts, he starts implemented shock adoction, 0:45:39.960 --> 0:45:45.200 he starts privatization, he starts um like marketization, he starts 0:45:45.200 --> 0:45:48.480 cutting studying, cutting price controls, he starts, he starts doing 0:45:49.200 --> 0:45:51.600 I don't know if decollectivization is quite the right word, 0:45:51.680 --> 0:45:58.720 because Yugoslavia's economic system is complicated and weirder than uh 0:45:58.800 --> 0:46:03.520 the USSRS. But you know, he does this, and this 0:46:03.600 --> 0:46:05.880 is one of the things that starts Yugoslavia's death spiral, 0:46:05.960 --> 0:46:09.160 because you know, you have this enormous economic devastation from 0:46:09.520 --> 0:46:11.920 the increase in oil prices for the oil shock, and 0:46:11.960 --> 0:46:15.440 then that gets paired with, you know, the the economic 0:46:15.480 --> 0:46:18.960 devastation from everyone losing their benefits, people losing de pensions, 0:46:19.800 --> 0:46:22.759 these state own industries going under, getting privatized, um the 0:46:22.840 --> 0:46:30.200 sort of like collective ownership structures imploding. And the product 0:46:30.239 --> 0:46:33.080 of this is that you know, melos Vic looks at 0:46:33.120 --> 0:46:34.680 this and it's like, Okay, how can I stay in power? 0:46:35.000 --> 0:46:37.279 And his answer is just genocide on that. It's just 0:46:37.280 --> 0:46:41.160 genocide on nationalism. And this sort of collapse or sort 0:46:41.200 --> 0:46:44.200 of state in social life is you know, and and 0:46:44.239 --> 0:46:47.319 the leaders at the top realizing that they can weaponize 0:46:47.520 --> 0:46:49.920 sort of nationalism is one of the things at least 0:46:49.960 --> 0:46:53.319 directly to the Boston and genocide. Now, towards the end 0:46:53.360 --> 0:46:56.640 of the eighties, the whole Soviet block starts coming apart um. Yeah, 0:46:56.680 --> 0:47:00.400 you know, the Berlin Wall falls and eventually, you know, 0:47:00.440 --> 0:47:03.640 the Soviet Union dissolves, and the people who are trying 0:47:03.640 --> 0:47:06.920 to end the Soviet Union, the things that they want 0:47:07.000 --> 0:47:10.960 basically are like freedom of speech, uh, the ability to 0:47:11.040 --> 0:47:16.120 like leave the country, and basically like Scandinavian style social democracy. 0:47:16.560 --> 0:47:20.879 And it was like reasonable from the Soviet Union. Yeah yeah, 0:47:20.880 --> 0:47:23.080 and you know, I mean these these people like you know, 0:47:23.160 --> 0:47:27.000 this is these you know, like they they they wanted 0:47:27.040 --> 0:47:30.760 to live in Scandinavia and instead they got hey, welcome 0:47:30.840 --> 0:47:37.919 to the US, but like even worse. Yeah, and so yeah, yeah, yeah, 0:47:38.040 --> 0:47:40.279 it's it's really bad. And you know what they get 0:47:40.360 --> 0:47:43.799 said is just these this enormous way of privatizations, Uh, 0:47:43.840 --> 0:47:48.279 the worldfare state just vanishes and you know this this 0:47:48.440 --> 0:47:51.880 causes basically like total societal collapse. Um. Like one of 0:47:51.880 --> 0:47:53.920 my one of my professors, and this this happens basically 0:47:53.920 --> 0:47:56.680 across the whole Soviet block. One of professors in college, 0:47:56.719 --> 0:48:00.840 and I think she was fumble Gary. Um. She she 0:48:00.880 --> 0:48:03.120 told me about how dream the nineties like when she 0:48:03.160 --> 0:48:05.280 when she was growing up, like she and her family 0:48:05.320 --> 0:48:07.239 would just the only thing they had to eat was 0:48:07.320 --> 0:48:09.640 raw millet because there's no food. There's there's literally no 0:48:09.680 --> 0:48:12.680 food anywhere. The entire economy is collapsed. Nobody has any money, 0:48:12.800 --> 0:48:14.400 and so you know, I was like, well, okay, everyone 0:48:14.480 --> 0:48:17.040 just eating raw grain because you know that that's what 0:48:17.280 --> 0:48:19.759 that's that's the only thing you can you can you 0:48:19.800 --> 0:48:23.399 have to survive. And you know, it's this it's it's 0:48:23.440 --> 0:48:26.640 literally so bad that in Russia it causes the single 0:48:26.719 --> 0:48:29.719 largest life expectancy drop in post World War Europe. It's 0:48:29.719 --> 0:48:31.719 like like it's the life expected to decrease is about 0:48:31.719 --> 0:48:35.680 like four years because so many people die from this. Um. 0:48:35.719 --> 0:48:36.960 You know, and on one of the one of the 0:48:36.960 --> 0:48:41.719 ways this happens is that there's so the way they're 0:48:41.760 --> 0:48:43.600 they're going to deal with like the state owned industry 0:48:43.640 --> 0:48:46.719 thing is they they okay? And I've never been able 0:48:46.719 --> 0:48:48.759 to figure this figure out if it was like they 0:48:48.880 --> 0:48:52.480 they actually took Murray Rothbar's plan for this, or if 0:48:52.480 --> 0:48:56.440 they just independently developed were a Rothbar's plan for for 0:48:56.440 --> 0:48:58.239 for dissolving state own the industries, which is give like 0:48:58.320 --> 0:49:00.360 everyone who worked in it a share of the company. 0:49:01.960 --> 0:49:03.960 And so they do this right, and everyone has these shares, 0:49:04.000 --> 0:49:06.319 but these shares are just like paper, and you can't 0:49:06.360 --> 0:49:08.640 eat this paper. So a bunch of sort of like 0:49:09.160 --> 0:49:11.759 organized crime guys and the people who have been you know, 0:49:11.840 --> 0:49:13.520 like like the sort of the people who've been richer 0:49:13.760 --> 0:49:16.440 or like had been sort of connected party people who 0:49:16.440 --> 0:49:18.279 were just like I'm just gonna cash out start, you know, 0:49:18.360 --> 0:49:21.120 just just going through cities and they're they'll you know, 0:49:21.120 --> 0:49:22.719 they'll be like, okay, we'll give you a pair of gene, 0:49:22.800 --> 0:49:24.080 like we'll give you some food if you give us 0:49:24.120 --> 0:49:25.759 their share, and you know, everyone people just give up 0:49:25.760 --> 0:49:28.920 their shares. And the result of this is that like 0:49:29.600 --> 0:49:32.400 just every industry at Russia immediately falls under the control 0:49:32.400 --> 0:49:36.000 of just just like absolutely psychotic oligarchs. And you know, 0:49:36.080 --> 0:49:38.400 the the West definitely sharing this on that this this 0:49:38.440 --> 0:49:43.000 whole process is engineered by just a bunch of just 0:49:43.080 --> 0:49:48.520 like pure neoliberal ghoul like Harvards, like weird Harvard grads 0:49:48.520 --> 0:49:50.200 who gets sent into Russia and who are like, oh, 0:49:50.200 --> 0:49:52.040 we're gonna we're gonna run the Russian economy and we're 0:49:52.040 --> 0:49:56.920 gonna like fix everything, and they just just absolutely destroy it. 0:49:57.040 --> 0:49:59.799 And you know, the West has the thing whether they're 0:49:59.800 --> 0:50:02.200 they're you know, they're they're they're cheering on this whole process. 0:50:02.200 --> 0:50:04.480 They have this thing about how like everyone has to 0:50:04.480 --> 0:50:06.799 do belt tightening and it's you're gonna suffer for a 0:50:06.800 --> 0:50:09.760 bit and it'll all be worth it. And meanwhile Boris 0:50:09.840 --> 0:50:13.160 Jelson is just completely drunk off his asked like shelling 0:50:13.200 --> 0:50:17.040 the parliament with tanks, while like the U. S. Press 0:50:17.080 --> 0:50:20.840 is cheering, and you know there's the sort of like 0:50:20.960 --> 0:50:23.840 you know, the tragedy this is like it's not really 0:50:23.840 --> 0:50:27.279 like Russia got like more free, you know, like they 0:50:27.360 --> 0:50:30.600 still they still torture and disappeared anarchists and secret prisons, 0:50:30.640 --> 0:50:34.480 like you know, there's there They still just like randomly 0:50:34.520 --> 0:50:40.200 assassinate political dissidence with through increasingly bizarre like poison bullshit. 0:50:40.600 --> 0:50:45.799 Yeah they sure do. Yeah, but you know, the big 0:50:45.840 --> 0:50:47.880 difference is that a bunch of Harvard grads made an 0:50:48.000 --> 0:50:50.640 indescribable amount of money. You now, no one has any pensions, 0:50:51.239 --> 0:50:52.960 um and there's there's this is great like this is 0:50:53.000 --> 0:50:55.680 a great Russian joke from this period that goes he's 0:50:55.680 --> 0:50:58.120 talking about the communists. Everything they ever told us about 0:50:58.120 --> 0:51:00.359 communism was alive, but everything they ever told is about 0:51:00.360 --> 0:51:05.239 capitalism was absolutely true. Yeah, that's that seems to be 0:51:05.440 --> 0:51:09.640 roughly accurate. Yeah, it's basically true. And you know, and 0:51:09.640 --> 0:51:12.320 and the product is sort of neoliberalism coming to Russia 0:51:12.440 --> 0:51:14.720 is that by by by the end of the nineties, 0:51:14.800 --> 0:51:18.640 Russia is just literally controlled by the mob and these 0:51:18.960 --> 0:51:22.640 monsters oligarchs. And Putin's campaign is like, I am better 0:51:22.719 --> 0:51:24.920 than the mob, and I will bring them. I will 0:51:24.920 --> 0:51:26.799 bring the mob and the oligarchs under control. And this 0:51:26.840 --> 0:51:28.520 is you know that, this is how Putin takes power 0:51:28.560 --> 0:51:30.360 because and he has failed to hold up to that 0:51:30.400 --> 0:51:35.719 probless to be fair, to be fair, the you are 0:51:35.800 --> 0:51:40.200 significantly less likely to just like randomly be kidnapped in ransoms. 0:51:40.239 --> 0:51:43.640 Not me, No I have, I have wrote for a website. 0:51:43.680 --> 0:51:46.319 He does not, like I cannot That's true. That's true. Yeah, 0:51:46.719 --> 0:51:50.880 if yeah, if you kiss off Putin, you might be 0:51:50.880 --> 0:51:52.920 held for ransom. But it's like, you know, the number 0:51:52.960 --> 0:51:55.920 of random people who don't do anything political, who are 0:51:55.960 --> 0:51:58.920 just like randomly held for ransom did kind of go 0:51:59.000 --> 0:52:01.600 down a bit, and like, Okay, that's I mean, all right, 0:52:01.600 --> 0:52:05.400 all right, you gotta hand it to Putin, Okay, I 0:52:05.520 --> 0:52:08.480 give him. Yeah, well, okay. The thing on hand to 0:52:08.520 --> 0:52:11.080 Putin is that he restored the state's monopoly on violence. 0:52:11.239 --> 0:52:17.839 Now that's not a good thing now, but he did it. Yeah, 0:52:17.920 --> 0:52:19.359 he well he did it. And you know this this 0:52:19.880 --> 0:52:22.000 was the basis of sort of because his power and 0:52:22.000 --> 0:52:24.879 political support was that and sort of nationalism. And this 0:52:24.960 --> 0:52:27.319 is like you know, and and there's always just the 0:52:27.360 --> 0:52:29.960 sort of liberal line on on on Putin. He's like, 0:52:30.040 --> 0:52:32.279 oh he's an SKGB guy, and like oh, it's still 0:52:32.280 --> 0:52:36.120 communism again, and it's like no, like no, no, and 0:52:36.280 --> 0:52:38.960 that this this brings me back to the single thing 0:52:39.120 --> 0:52:42.000 that I need everyone to understand about need liberalism, which 0:52:42.040 --> 0:52:44.160 is that near liberalism does not decrease the size of 0:52:44.200 --> 0:52:47.000 the state. Like there there were more there were more 0:52:47.080 --> 0:52:49.919 bureaucrats now in the Russian state than there were under 0:52:49.960 --> 0:52:53.360 the Soviet Union. No, and it definitely in order for 0:52:53.360 --> 0:52:57.880 it to operate, it definitely extends drastically like the hands 0:52:57.920 --> 0:53:01.840 of the states in terms of like like like military, police, 0:53:01.880 --> 0:53:04.439 law enforcement, like all those things. In order to keep 0:53:04.560 --> 0:53:08.120 this weird market driven thing alive, you need to have 0:53:08.200 --> 0:53:11.319 a lot of like enforcement on people who don't have 0:53:11.760 --> 0:53:14.239 but both both people who like actually make money and 0:53:14.440 --> 0:53:16.680 but most of the people who don't make very much money. 0:53:17.320 --> 0:53:20.279 So it increases not only like the bureaucratic state, but 0:53:20.320 --> 0:53:23.239 also like the enforcement armor of the state. Yeah, and 0:53:23.280 --> 0:53:25.520 I think there's there's there's there's there's two interesting ways 0:53:25.520 --> 0:53:30.120 this happens. One is that, well, okay, there's three ways happens. 0:53:30.160 --> 0:53:32.239 One is that anytime someone says they're gonna they're gonna 0:53:32.280 --> 0:53:35.000 do deregulation, like deregulation does not mean that they're going 0:53:35.040 --> 0:53:37.040 to decrease the number of regulations there are. What it 0:53:37.080 --> 0:53:41.480 means is that the regulations are bad for this company, 0:53:41.680 --> 0:53:43.359 and so they're they're going they're going to they're going 0:53:43.400 --> 0:53:45.319 to add more regulations in a way that is good 0:53:45.360 --> 0:53:48.360 for this company. And the thing is this actually this 0:53:48.480 --> 0:53:50.760 you know, this net increases the size of the state 0:53:50.840 --> 0:53:52.560 right there, They're not like they're not like they're not 0:53:52.760 --> 0:53:55.799 decreasing the number of laws or whatever. They're you know, 0:53:55.840 --> 0:53:59.839 they're they're they're they're they're writing like incredibly like absolutely 0:53:59.840 --> 0:54:04.120 in comprehensible banking legislation that like, let's banks charge like 0:54:04.200 --> 0:54:07.719 interest rates that previously only organized crime could do. And 0:54:07.760 --> 0:54:10.080 then there's there's another aspect of this, which is that, 0:54:10.200 --> 0:54:13.880 you know, so the welfare that remains right, you know, 0:54:13.880 --> 0:54:16.799 it becomes means tested, and you know that means that 0:54:16.800 --> 0:54:19.520 there's so you have the bureaucracy right that like gives 0:54:19.560 --> 0:54:22.399 you things, and then you have another bureaucracy on top 0:54:22.440 --> 0:54:24.520 of that that decides whether or not you should be 0:54:24.560 --> 0:54:26.080 allowed to do the thing it puts you. You know, 0:54:26.080 --> 0:54:29.719 there's this this is just just this like process of 0:54:29.760 --> 0:54:33.040 abject humiliation that you have to go through to receive anything, yeah, 0:54:33.120 --> 0:54:34.840 from the state. And it's like and that sucks. And 0:54:34.880 --> 0:54:38.600 then because that is so awful, there's another layer of bureaucracy, 0:54:38.640 --> 0:54:41.200 which is like social workers and stuff, whose job it 0:54:41.280 --> 0:54:43.400 is in large part is to help you bypass the 0:54:43.800 --> 0:54:47.120 second layer of bureaucracy. So that creates another layer. Yeah, 0:54:47.160 --> 0:54:50.600 there's there's there's there's so much. Yeah it is, and 0:54:50.640 --> 0:54:52.000 but but this is you know this, this this is 0:54:52.040 --> 0:54:54.280 one of the things that the liberals do, which is okay, 0:54:54.280 --> 0:54:56.000 So you know, you you have you have you have 0:54:56.080 --> 0:54:58.520 your two doctrines. Right, you have the thing they actually believe, 0:54:58.600 --> 0:55:02.160 which is enormous bureaucrat military state, and then you have 0:55:02.200 --> 0:55:03.960 the thing they claim to believe, which is, oh, the 0:55:04.000 --> 0:55:07.960 state needs to be smaller, state needs to be decentralized, 0:55:07.960 --> 0:55:11.400 the state, shouldn't you fear in the market. And so whenever, whenever, 0:55:11.520 --> 0:55:13.799 like the things that they do get too bad, they 0:55:13.800 --> 0:55:16.200 have this other thing that can turn to you to go, oh, yeah, 0:55:16.239 --> 0:55:18.440 the reason there's too much bureaucracy is because the state's 0:55:18.440 --> 0:55:20.359 getting involved too much. Elect us and we will get 0:55:20.400 --> 0:55:22.200 rid of the bureaucracy. And then you elect them and 0:55:22.200 --> 0:55:23.879 they make the state bigger, and you know, you get 0:55:23.880 --> 0:55:27.279 this started perpetual cycle. I think the reason people get 0:55:27.280 --> 0:55:31.839 confused by this is that when when people when most 0:55:31.840 --> 0:55:34.560 people think of the state, right, they think of the 0:55:34.600 --> 0:55:36.680 state is something that provide services. You know that the 0:55:36.760 --> 0:55:41.280 quintessential thing of state does is build roads roads. Yeah, 0:55:41.360 --> 0:55:42.880 and you know, and you know, when we can talk 0:55:42.920 --> 0:55:46.880 about how like the US building roads probably doomed the 0:55:47.040 --> 0:55:50.319 entire earth climate change. Oh yeah, no, like the way 0:55:50.320 --> 0:55:52.719 that we've done roads around cars and the type of 0:55:52.719 --> 0:55:55.919 things we make roads. Yeah, it's horrible, but yeah it's awful. Yeah, 0:55:56.000 --> 0:55:58.240 but but there there's there's there's another thing about roads 0:55:58.239 --> 0:56:02.319 which is interesting, which is that roads are you know, 0:56:02.360 --> 0:56:05.040 so the original reason why states built roads was they 0:56:05.040 --> 0:56:07.960 can move armies around. And and this comes back to 0:56:08.040 --> 0:56:11.640 the core of what a state is. Right, there is 0:56:11.680 --> 0:56:14.640 nothing in the actual core definition of a state, which 0:56:14.680 --> 0:56:18.000 is basically it's a hierarch couple of localized monopoly on violence. Right, 0:56:18.360 --> 0:56:22.279 there's nothing in that that has that like says at 0:56:22.320 --> 0:56:24.279 all the state has to do anything for you, right 0:56:24.760 --> 0:56:27.400 like if if you know, if if two guys with 0:56:27.440 --> 0:56:30.759 guns show up and sees a place, right, they can 0:56:30.760 --> 0:56:33.240 create a state. They don't have to give you anything. 0:56:33.640 --> 0:56:37.200 The state is the fundamental core of the state is 0:56:37.239 --> 0:56:39.400 just a bunch of armed people who can order people around. 0:56:40.120 --> 0:56:42.719 And you know, but people people sort of can people 0:56:42.719 --> 0:56:46.919 sort of confuse the two and the neoliberalisms entire thing 0:56:47.120 --> 0:56:49.480 is increasing the increasing the military. You know that the 0:56:49.480 --> 0:56:51.160 part of the state that takes things from you at 0:56:51.160 --> 0:56:54.480 gunpoint and decreasing the part of the states that like 0:56:54.640 --> 0:56:58.560 gives you things. And you know, one of one of 0:56:58.640 --> 0:57:00.960 the there's one of one of the other things that 0:57:00.960 --> 0:57:06.160 that happens in this period is that labor increasingly stops 0:57:06.200 --> 0:57:10.880 being about making or doing anything and just becomes pure 0:57:10.880 --> 0:57:18.160 guard labor. So, you know, the the the last big 0:57:18.280 --> 0:57:21.560 neoliberal project that doesn't really get talked about as a 0:57:21.600 --> 0:57:25.120 deliberal project ever, is that mass incarceration is a deliberal project. 0:57:25.400 --> 0:57:29.360 It started under under Nixon and under Carter. But you know, 0:57:29.400 --> 0:57:31.760 so when when Reagan takes office that the American prison 0:57:31.800 --> 0:57:36.000 population is about three thousand. When he leaves office, he 0:57:36.040 --> 0:57:39.800 has basically doubled it to uh six, seven thousand. We 0:57:39.840 --> 0:57:42.240 have now more than doubled it again. And you know 0:57:42.320 --> 0:57:44.600 it it basically it you know when whenever you get 0:57:44.640 --> 0:57:47.080 a large nealiberal administration that they you know, they double it, right, 0:57:47.800 --> 0:57:53.160 it basically doubles again drained bedween the Clinton administration. You know, 0:57:53.240 --> 0:57:56.320 it keeps accelerating and you know this is this is 0:57:56.360 --> 0:58:00.520 this is the other thing that that neoliberalism brings in, 0:58:00.560 --> 0:58:03.640 which is that Okay, so neil libils and produces this 0:58:03.720 --> 0:58:06.440 enormous population of people who don't have any jobs, have 0:58:06.480 --> 0:58:08.960 no opportunities whatsoever, are just screwed. So what do you 0:58:08.960 --> 0:58:12.880 do with them? And the answer is slavery. And basically 0:58:12.920 --> 0:58:16.480 everywhere that you stay using neoliberalism, you see massive increases 0:58:16.480 --> 0:58:19.600 into prison population. Espect like the US is by far 0:58:19.680 --> 0:58:21.800 the worst example of this, but this happens. You know 0:58:21.840 --> 0:58:26.760 that the seven is basically across the world and what 0:58:26.760 --> 0:58:29.720 what what you see is in place of you know, 0:58:29.760 --> 0:58:31.720 it's this is this one of the things that drives 0:58:31.760 --> 0:58:33.919 politics in sort of in rural reasons in the US, 0:58:34.520 --> 0:58:36.160 which is that you have these places that used to 0:58:36.200 --> 0:58:38.520 sort of have industry is used to particularly like coal mining, 0:58:38.760 --> 0:58:42.640 things like that, and it gets replaced by prisons because prisons, 0:58:42.840 --> 0:58:44.760 you know, having a prison in your sort of rural 0:58:44.840 --> 0:58:48.040 town is is the only way to sort of ensure 0:58:48.120 --> 0:58:50.000 that you have a large economic base. And so you know, 0:58:50.040 --> 0:58:53.960 like local local city councils are you know, incredibly pro 0:58:54.040 --> 0:58:55.480 prison because it's like, oh, well, the president will bring 0:58:55.560 --> 0:58:59.920 your jobs and you know, this means that okay, so 0:59:00.000 --> 0:59:01.720 so so the people a lot of people who are 0:59:01.720 --> 0:59:05.919 prison guards are just you know, fascists, but there's also 0:59:05.960 --> 0:59:10.439 people who are prison guards who normally would just be workers. Yeah, no, absolutely, yeah, 0:59:10.440 --> 0:59:11.720 who have just been sort of but you know, there's 0:59:11.760 --> 0:59:14.680 nothing left right and they they're fighting, uh Mike Davis 0:59:14.680 --> 0:59:18.240 talks about this, that they're fighting. This just incredibly desperate, 0:59:18.920 --> 0:59:21.680 ferocious struggle to like stay in the places they love 0:59:21.760 --> 0:59:23.480 and stay with their families, and stay with their friends, 0:59:23.480 --> 0:59:26.160 stay with their communities. And the only way they can 0:59:26.200 --> 0:59:28.880 do this is, you know, by becoming part of this 0:59:29.080 --> 0:59:33.120 like just the neo liberal health state. And you know 0:59:33.320 --> 0:59:37.160 they don't like it either, but that's you know, that's 0:59:37.160 --> 0:59:39.640 what the liberalism is, right, is you no longer have 0:59:39.680 --> 0:59:42.400 a job. The only job available to you is picking 0:59:42.440 --> 0:59:44.840 up a gun and pointing it at someone who is 0:59:44.920 --> 0:59:49.600 exactly the same as you, except you know, they've been 0:59:49.960 --> 0:59:52.040 thrown into the slavery part of the system instead of 0:59:52.080 --> 0:59:53.760 the people holding the guns at the slavery part of 0:59:53.800 --> 0:59:56.880 the system. And one of the things that that happens 0:59:56.880 --> 1:00:01.800 a lot of people just really conflu late about what 1:00:01.920 --> 1:00:06.640 neoliberalism is they can use it libertarianism and they're not 1:00:06.680 --> 1:00:09.520 the same thing. And and this this is a condus 1:00:09.560 --> 1:00:12.800 is a very confusing problem because well, a the term 1:00:12.840 --> 1:00:14.919 nea liberals don't get used in the US all that much. 1:00:15.600 --> 1:00:18.200 When people use it, they usually use it to mean 1:00:18.440 --> 1:00:22.320 something bad. And that's just about it. Yeah, yeah, and 1:00:22.320 --> 1:00:25.280 and you know and and also another part of the 1:00:25.280 --> 1:00:27.680 problem is that even if you go into like the 1:00:27.720 --> 1:00:30.040 Montpellion Society, right, which you know this is this is 1:00:30.080 --> 1:00:32.160 this is the arch new liberal institution, and it's just 1:00:32.440 --> 1:00:36.160 like basically like a think tank generator, there are there 1:00:36.160 --> 1:00:38.280 are libertarians in there. There there are there are narco 1:00:38.360 --> 1:00:42.760 capitalists in the Montpellion Society, and the one Pellion Society 1:00:42.800 --> 1:00:45.080 is fighting this sort of constant internal battle between the 1:00:45.080 --> 1:00:47.640 people who actually believe the things that they say publicly, 1:00:47.680 --> 1:00:49.360 like you actually believe you should have a small state 1:00:49.400 --> 1:00:52.400 blah blah blah blah, and the people who understand that 1:00:52.560 --> 1:00:55.920 all the small states stuff is just like stuff you 1:00:55.960 --> 1:00:58.280 tell the masses in order to get them to like 1:00:58.440 --> 1:01:01.600 slash welfare things while you just hire more cops. And 1:01:01.920 --> 1:01:06.120 probably the single biggest distinction between the libertarians and and 1:01:06.240 --> 1:01:09.240 the New Liberals is about border control. Now, if if 1:01:09.440 --> 1:01:11.800 you listen to New Liberals on Twitter, or you listen 1:01:11.840 --> 1:01:14.920 to Neil, or you listen to libertarians, right, capitalism is 1:01:14.920 --> 1:01:16.600 supposed to have open borders, is supposed to be free 1:01:16.640 --> 1:01:20.840 moving to people, etcetera, etcetera, etcetera. Um, if you look 1:01:20.880 --> 1:01:24.240 at literally everything every neo liberal government has ever done, 1:01:24.280 --> 1:01:27.200 it's exactly the opposite. It's they don't like that. Yeah, yeah, 1:01:27.240 --> 1:01:29.200 they hit it. And and and you know this whole thing 1:01:29.280 --> 1:01:33.080 about like oh you need workers to uh yeah, if 1:01:33.160 --> 1:01:34.520 if you, if you, if you let workers from other 1:01:34.520 --> 1:01:37.680 countries go into into the US, like oh they'll they'll, 1:01:37.720 --> 1:01:42.280 they'll decrease wages, blah blah blah blah. So the period 1:01:42.320 --> 1:01:44.720 in which the US like had strong unions and strong 1:01:44.760 --> 1:01:46.400 wages and stuff, with the period where there was like 1:01:46.440 --> 1:01:48.720 basically no militarization on the Mexican border. I mean there 1:01:48.760 --> 1:01:50.840 were some and you know there there's there's there's a 1:01:50.880 --> 1:01:55.040 build up sort of dream the Vietnam War and they're 1:01:55.040 --> 1:01:58.520 they're they're sort of been one back like around election 1:01:58.600 --> 1:02:02.120 revolution era. But you know it's it's nothing. It's literally 1:02:02.120 --> 1:02:05.560 nothing like it is today. Today. The US border is 1:02:05.600 --> 1:02:09.720 this just absolute hellscape. Um. I mean just like there's 1:02:09.760 --> 1:02:11.760 there's there's this enormous perimeter of the U. S border 1:02:11.800 --> 1:02:14.320 where just the Constitution doesn't apply, where like the Bill 1:02:14.320 --> 1:02:16.680 of Rights just doesn't exist. If if if you're, if you're, 1:02:16.680 --> 1:02:18.040 if you're close enough to the border, it's just it's 1:02:18.040 --> 1:02:21.200 all suspended. Uh, it's not entirely supended, but like basically 1:02:21.240 --> 1:02:23.200 the border patrol can just do whatever the funk they 1:02:23.240 --> 1:02:25.720 want to you, and you know, like this, this, this 1:02:25.760 --> 1:02:27.200 is this is how the border patrol was able to 1:02:27.240 --> 1:02:29.520 be deployed in Portland, right because Portland's technically on the border, 1:02:29.520 --> 1:02:34.040 and the border patrol has increased power is there and 1:02:34.120 --> 1:02:38.400 the actual goal is so people people are always going 1:02:38.440 --> 1:02:41.560 to move, right, And what the new labels figured out 1:02:41.640 --> 1:02:45.560 was that you know, these these these enormous market labor populations, 1:02:47.040 --> 1:02:48.840 the best way you can exploit them as if they're 1:02:48.880 --> 1:02:53.280 just absolutely terrorized by just this, you know, an incredible 1:02:53.400 --> 1:02:59.120 sort of ferociously hostile, murderous just border regime run by fascists. 1:03:00.280 --> 1:03:03.760 And it works, like they kill, they kill enormous numbers 1:03:03.760 --> 1:03:06.040 of people, They do horrible things, They put people with 1:03:06.080 --> 1:03:11.480 concentration camps, they sterilize people they like, they sexually assault children, 1:03:11.720 --> 1:03:17.479 they disappear people they like, still people's babies. And this 1:03:17.560 --> 1:03:20.160 is you know, this is what neoliberalism is, right, This, 1:03:20.280 --> 1:03:22.000 this is what it actually is in practice. This is 1:03:22.120 --> 1:03:25.600 you know, like, this is the this is the this 1:03:25.680 --> 1:03:30.680 is the policy that has imposed money liberal states. And 1:03:30.720 --> 1:03:32.400 I think I want to end on that, and I 1:03:32.440 --> 1:03:36.600 want to end on a note about what the quintessential 1:03:37.400 --> 1:03:40.880 sort of figure of neoliberalism is, because I think, you know, 1:03:41.040 --> 1:03:45.920 in the neoliberals mind, right, the quintessential neoliberal figure is 1:03:46.000 --> 1:03:50.000 like the small entrepreneur who's like guy who's you know, 1:03:50.240 --> 1:03:53.680 turned their own creativity and like harnessed it into like 1:03:53.840 --> 1:03:56.520 the ability to create value, and you know, they're creating 1:03:56.560 --> 1:03:59.280 things for the world and they're reaching themselves. And I 1:03:59.280 --> 1:04:01.520 think a lot of just think of it as like 1:04:02.400 --> 1:04:05.600 the quintessional The liberal is you know, a Chicago, Chicago 1:04:05.680 --> 1:04:10.320 School of Economics person. Yeah, and I want to suggest 1:04:10.440 --> 1:04:14.000 that they quit. The single quintessential like neo liberal figure 1:04:15.080 --> 1:04:18.560 is a riot cop, and specifically specifically that the you know, 1:04:19.760 --> 1:04:22.479 if if you know, if every everyone by now knows 1:04:22.520 --> 1:04:27.000 what a riot cop looks like, right, I want everyone 1:04:27.040 --> 1:04:30.280 to go back and even even from from like two 1:04:30.360 --> 1:04:33.680 thousand one, look at what a riot police officer looks 1:04:33.680 --> 1:04:36.240 like in two thousand one versus what they look like now, 1:04:37.080 --> 1:04:39.360 and then go back to even like the nineteen sixties 1:04:39.960 --> 1:04:42.960 and look look at look at what those guys look like. Yeah, 1:04:42.960 --> 1:04:44.800 I know, looking at the footage from the sixties and 1:04:44.920 --> 1:04:47.880 riot cops is like really depressed it because they're like, 1:04:48.160 --> 1:04:52.120 I could take these guys. They're they're just wearing T shirts. 1:04:52.800 --> 1:04:55.520 They're just guys. It's it's way more of a fair fight. 1:04:55.720 --> 1:04:57.600 They have T shirts and sticks. We could have T 1:04:57.720 --> 1:05:00.960 shirts and sticks. That is a that's like the arriety 1:05:00.960 --> 1:05:03.360 of the sixties. It sounds like now they also in 1:05:03.400 --> 1:05:05.640 some cases will be much more willing just to murder 1:05:05.720 --> 1:05:09.440 tons of people. Now there is that exception, but in 1:05:09.640 --> 1:05:12.920 like a big street brawl, it is it is generally 1:05:13.160 --> 1:05:14.920 a bit of a fair fight. I mean, I will 1:05:14.960 --> 1:05:18.800 say also, sixties police love love dogs. They love like 1:05:18.800 --> 1:05:22.840 sicking dogs on people, which is really bad. Yeah, I'm 1:05:23.080 --> 1:05:24.440 I'm looking at it, looking at it at the two 1:05:24.480 --> 1:05:28.000 thousand one riot cops, and yeah, they are not nearly 1:05:28.080 --> 1:05:32.720 as robo copy. That's what they are now. Drin the 1:05:32.720 --> 1:05:36.760 Twin Chilean uprising in I was talking to someone in 1:05:36.840 --> 1:05:40.080 Chile and they were talking about how like they were 1:05:40.080 --> 1:05:42.160 describing it as like the cops were just like like 1:05:42.200 --> 1:05:43.960 something had a change, beating Ninja turtles like it was 1:05:44.000 --> 1:05:48.840 like fighting the Shredder. There's yea. Even even even the 1:05:48.960 --> 1:05:52.200 L A. P. D. Riot cops for the nineteen ninety 1:05:52.200 --> 1:05:55.960 two riots, they're also still just wearing like shirts like 1:05:56.000 --> 1:05:59.800 they just have they just have colored shirts and one stick. Yeah. 1:06:00.120 --> 1:06:04.040 Now now they're wearing there whatever dumb armor they have. Yeah. 1:06:04.160 --> 1:06:05.720 But you know, and this is this is you know 1:06:05.720 --> 1:06:07.160 and this, this is this is if if you want 1:06:07.160 --> 1:06:10.240 to trace the path in neo liberalism, it's this. It's 1:06:10.480 --> 1:06:15.000 a lot of the army surplus stuff that like the 1:06:15.040 --> 1:06:17.400 police have gotten a lot of. It's really scary. A 1:06:17.400 --> 1:06:19.680 lot of it also sucks, like a lot of those 1:06:19.680 --> 1:06:21.800 a t v S every like everyone who's ever had 1:06:21.840 --> 1:06:24.760 the drive them hates them. But you know, like like 1:06:24.800 --> 1:06:28.120 my my like absolutely tiny dinky town has a bear 1:06:28.200 --> 1:06:33.040 cat and that shouldn't that shouldn't be. And I know 1:06:33.080 --> 1:06:36.360 where it is too, Like I know where the bear 1:06:36.400 --> 1:06:38.200 cat is. It's like, there shouldn't be a bear cat. 1:06:39.720 --> 1:06:42.840 My town is a tax cutout, like it's it's literally 1:06:42.840 --> 1:06:44.640 a tax carve out like that that's the reason, that's 1:06:44.680 --> 1:06:46.439 really reason it exists. And it has a bear cat, 1:06:47.200 --> 1:06:49.800 and like, you know, this is this is sort of 1:06:49.840 --> 1:06:52.640 the this is the consequence of of of what neo liberalism, 1:06:52.680 --> 1:06:56.120 isn't it. Vicky usta Well talked about this on on 1:06:56.120 --> 1:06:58.480 on the Occupy episode. It's it's the comps become more 1:06:58.520 --> 1:07:00.800 like become more like the army. The army becomes more 1:07:00.800 --> 1:07:05.680 like the cops. And you know, the result is this 1:07:06.360 --> 1:07:08.680 sort of pen out to con surveillance states, where like 1:07:08.760 --> 1:07:11.880 if you and seven people stand on a sidewalk, sixteen 1:07:11.920 --> 1:07:17.040 cops will show up. Yeah, they've they've really excelled in 1:07:17.520 --> 1:07:22.720 making the capitalist realism Dumer philosophy be almost like the 1:07:22.720 --> 1:07:25.640 base philosophy for anyone who takes two seconds to think 1:07:25.680 --> 1:07:28.480 about the world that they live in. And you know, 1:07:28.520 --> 1:07:31.000 and this has been really effective in a lot of ways. 1:07:32.160 --> 1:07:36.280 But you know, David Graeber point pointed this out, which 1:07:36.320 --> 1:07:40.439 is that the problem with doing this is that, you know, Okay, 1:07:40.480 --> 1:07:42.760 so like the the the enormous amount of guard labor, right, 1:07:42.760 --> 1:07:45.640 the enormous amount of sort of prison guards. Like that's 1:07:45.640 --> 1:07:48.760 all unproductive labor, right. You know, you you you make 1:07:48.800 --> 1:07:50.600 you make some of that money back off that the 1:07:50.640 --> 1:07:52.800 companies make some of the money back off the slave labor. Right, 1:07:53.600 --> 1:07:56.680 But like, but that in general. There the guards aren't 1:07:57.080 --> 1:08:00.960 adding anything. They're not they're not they're not produced any 1:08:01.240 --> 1:08:05.120 goods um and not really much service either. No. And 1:08:05.240 --> 1:08:07.280 and this is you know this, this this is a problem, 1:08:07.360 --> 1:08:10.400 right because because neoliberalism is profit driven, and so you know, 1:08:10.440 --> 1:08:12.520 what what you have is is that the system has 1:08:12.520 --> 1:08:16.800 a choice between either it functioning or it making it 1:08:16.880 --> 1:08:20.760 appear as if it's the only system. And that's the 1:08:20.760 --> 1:08:23.240 thing is that it's it's it's kind of profit driven. 1:08:23.600 --> 1:08:26.160 But honestly, the more that I the more that you've 1:08:26.160 --> 1:08:29.560 been talking like, no, it's just about eliminating any alternative. 1:08:29.720 --> 1:08:32.160 So it's not not even profit driven. It's that it's 1:08:32.320 --> 1:08:36.400 forcing itself to be the only acceptable option. Yeah, that's 1:08:36.439 --> 1:08:40.439 how it gets so much of its power. Yeah. But 1:08:40.439 --> 1:08:45.280 but you know the problem with this is that all 1:08:45.320 --> 1:08:48.519 of that sort of ideological coercion only last as long 1:08:48.560 --> 1:08:52.880 as the police can hold the streets, which is which 1:08:52.880 --> 1:08:56.400 is they're good at it. They're they're sometimes they're decent, 1:08:56.840 --> 1:08:58.479 you know. And one one of the story I want 1:08:58.479 --> 1:09:03.160 to end on is so there's you know, there there 1:09:03.200 --> 1:09:07.679 has been in some with more varying degrees of success, 1:09:07.720 --> 1:09:12.040 there has actually been resistance in neoliberalism, and there are 1:09:12.080 --> 1:09:14.040 places where people have won the people. There are places 1:09:14.040 --> 1:09:15.840 where people have run the I m f out those people. 1:09:15.920 --> 1:09:18.800 There's places where people have you know, defeated coups, where 1:09:18.800 --> 1:09:21.840 they've like you know, where where they've where they've they've 1:09:21.880 --> 1:09:24.519 they've successfully sort of taken over the state. There's places 1:09:24.520 --> 1:09:27.120 where you know, I mean there's there's there's places like 1:09:28.240 --> 1:09:30.040 you know, we're gonna talk about couple of things in Mexico, 1:09:30.120 --> 1:09:32.280 but yeah, I mean there's there's the Appetistas who have 1:09:32.720 --> 1:09:35.080 you know, are constantly besieged, but have carved out a 1:09:35.240 --> 1:09:38.599 territory in which they have you know, like totally defeated 1:09:38.640 --> 1:09:42.680 the Mexican almost really defeated the Mexican state. And I 1:09:42.760 --> 1:09:46.920 think one of the sort of forgotten incidents in in 1:09:47.200 --> 1:09:51.160 the two thousands is this uprising in Wahaka where they, yeah, 1:09:51.160 --> 1:09:52.880 there's a there's an enormous sort of a bunch of 1:09:52.920 --> 1:09:57.000 teachers are going on strike. And you know, Wahawka's teaching 1:09:57.120 --> 1:10:00.519 unions are enormously powerful, incredibly radical, and so you know 1:10:00.600 --> 1:10:02.040 that they one of the things they do is that 1:10:02.200 --> 1:10:04.439 they go into the city and they have these like 1:10:04.560 --> 1:10:06.479 these giants started protest tents that they showed up and 1:10:06.479 --> 1:10:09.560 they have these like giant camps and she just in 1:10:09.640 --> 1:10:13.040 six the police attack them, and so they start attacking 1:10:13.120 --> 1:10:16.000 and and the teachers fight back, and so you have 1:10:16.080 --> 1:10:20.320 this you know this, this this massive battle erupts um 1:10:20.560 --> 1:10:22.320 it's just in the city and you know this is 1:10:22.360 --> 1:10:23.840 this is all the police attack it like three in 1:10:23.960 --> 1:10:27.240 the morning, right, but then they there's not enough of them, 1:10:27.240 --> 1:10:30.479 the clear teachers out and the teachers hold and they 1:10:30.560 --> 1:10:33.479 hold and they hold, and the city of Wahaka wakes 1:10:33.560 --> 1:10:36.840 up to this just enormous battle in the streets between 1:10:36.840 --> 1:10:40.280 a bunch of just like teachers and the cops. And 1:10:40.439 --> 1:10:44.880 when Wahawka wakes up, they are just like what the 1:10:45.120 --> 1:10:48.439 fuck is this? And you know, they joined the teachers 1:10:48.439 --> 1:10:52.000 and they go fight the cops and they they they're 1:10:52.560 --> 1:10:55.400 largely successful in like like they beat them. They drive, 1:10:55.479 --> 1:10:59.280 they drive the police from the city, and you know, 1:10:59.400 --> 1:11:01.800 and and for for for for for several months, the 1:11:01.840 --> 1:11:04.080 city is basically under the control of these like direct 1:11:04.120 --> 1:11:07.479 democratic councils and like they're there are these there are 1:11:07.479 --> 1:11:09.280 these things they call the mega marshes, which just a 1:11:09.400 --> 1:11:11.960 million people will do a march to the streets and 1:11:12.000 --> 1:11:14.040 the police there's the police just can't stop them because 1:11:14.120 --> 1:11:17.040 you know, there's a million people. And yeah, that's that's 1:11:17.080 --> 1:11:19.200 the only way that I've seen it be successful, whether 1:11:19.240 --> 1:11:22.439 it be you know, just to sure sheer massive people 1:11:22.560 --> 1:11:25.720 driving cops out of a police station, or you know, 1:11:25.880 --> 1:11:29.400 an entire city rallying behind people like in in in 1:11:29.520 --> 1:11:31.800 Portland when the fence came, it's like you need to 1:11:31.840 --> 1:11:35.840 have like everybody to show up, because they could fight 1:11:36.040 --> 1:11:41.559 two hundred like twin canarchists very pretty easily. You usually, um, 1:11:41.920 --> 1:11:44.080 but when you have like all of the moms and 1:11:44.200 --> 1:11:46.320 dads and regular people come up, that is much more 1:11:46.320 --> 1:11:50.120 of a complicated of fight on like on on their end, 1:11:50.479 --> 1:11:53.679 because yeah, we'll still have the teenage front liners throwing 1:11:54.320 --> 1:11:57.800 at the cops, but when you have like regular people 1:11:57.840 --> 1:12:00.680 behind them, that creates the whole median sative to be 1:12:00.880 --> 1:12:05.519 something totally different. And it got the Feds to back 1:12:05.600 --> 1:12:09.759 down in Portland when Trump really wanted to not happen. 1:12:10.479 --> 1:12:12.040 And I think also the thing the thing that that 1:12:12.120 --> 1:12:14.360 was increding incredible aba hawkause it wasn't just people sort 1:12:14.360 --> 1:12:17.360 of like standing behind them, like like tens of thousands 1:12:17.400 --> 1:12:20.760 of people just joined the fight in in a way 1:12:20.840 --> 1:12:22.760 that you know it like if you know, if if 1:12:22.800 --> 1:12:25.240 there's like fifty thou people in a city throwing bricks 1:12:25.280 --> 1:12:27.360 at you, like you you either have to start shooting 1:12:27.360 --> 1:12:29.760 into the crowd or try to hold them. Can't You can't. 1:12:29.760 --> 1:12:32.080 And even when he start shooting into the crowd, Yeah, 1:12:32.080 --> 1:12:34.680 they tried it. And the disaster it made it made 1:12:34.760 --> 1:12:37.439 even people the crowds were larger, and like, you know, 1:12:37.520 --> 1:12:40.560 one of the things that happens is, uh, the the 1:12:40.640 --> 1:12:42.960 revolutionaries try to like you know, they go to the 1:12:43.040 --> 1:12:44.800 radio station or like okay, well you broadcast this. The 1:12:44.840 --> 1:12:47.120 radio station says no, and so they start seizing radio 1:12:47.160 --> 1:12:50.639 stations all over all over the city. Yeah, and they yeah, 1:12:50.680 --> 1:12:51.800 and then you know, and then they had they had 1:12:51.840 --> 1:12:53.240 these they had these like bonfire at the edge of 1:12:53.240 --> 1:12:54.640 the city where if one's at a meets and like 1:12:54.720 --> 1:12:57.479 they're there's they're they're sending their they're they're sending radio 1:12:57.720 --> 1:13:00.559 like messages like over the radio stations they've taken over 1:13:00.680 --> 1:13:05.960 from like barricade to barricade, and you know, eventually the 1:13:06.040 --> 1:13:08.920 police and like the like the Mexican Army shows up 1:13:09.400 --> 1:13:11.280 and at that point they're able to sort of retake 1:13:11.320 --> 1:13:14.599 the city. And there's a couple of other things happening 1:13:14.600 --> 1:13:16.160 in Mexico at this point that are sort of this 1:13:16.240 --> 1:13:19.840 is giants are left wing tied, and the way that 1:13:19.960 --> 1:13:24.280 it gets stopped is that the Mexican army basically fully 1:13:24.360 --> 1:13:28.559 kicks off the drug war and they kill I mean, 1:13:30.280 --> 1:13:33.599 I've seen numbers up to like eight hundred thousand people 1:13:33.680 --> 1:13:37.680 in ten years. They just they basic they basically genocides 1:13:37.840 --> 1:13:43.760 the indigenous population of of of Mexico. And you know, 1:13:44.080 --> 1:13:46.160 I think I think that's that's that's sort of a 1:13:46.240 --> 1:13:51.000 place to leave it because more big hopeful note to 1:13:51.160 --> 1:13:52.840 end to the show on. Yeah, but I mean I 1:13:52.920 --> 1:13:54.479 think I think it is it is worth it is 1:13:54.600 --> 1:13:57.160 you know, it's it's it's it's worth thinking about. Is one, 1:13:57.280 --> 1:14:01.040 it is possible to beat the police to the ruling 1:14:01.080 --> 1:14:04.960 class will literally bathe the entire country in blood, like 1:14:05.120 --> 1:14:09.400 they will destroy their own company. Is different. The way 1:14:09.479 --> 1:14:12.120 I mean this gets discussed and season will happen here, 1:14:12.200 --> 1:14:14.559 but like the way the American military works, I think 1:14:14.600 --> 1:14:17.439 it will be less likely to do that. Yeah. Well, 1:14:17.439 --> 1:14:18.880 I mean, and I want I want to put this 1:14:18.920 --> 1:14:22.160 oide like, so the thing that the Army doesn't directly 1:14:22.520 --> 1:14:24.080 murder people. What they do is but what they do 1:14:24.240 --> 1:14:28.880 is basically like they they set off a bunch of 1:14:28.960 --> 1:14:32.400 fighting between the cartels and then and the cartels fucking 1:14:32.520 --> 1:14:35.479 murder enormous members people. But you know, we will happily 1:14:35.560 --> 1:14:38.240 murder each other. But yeah, yeah, well and also you know, 1:14:38.320 --> 1:14:39.920 I mean it's it's also this is this is you know, 1:14:39.960 --> 1:14:41.559 it's the thing with the Mexican state. It's it's very 1:14:41.680 --> 1:14:44.240 very difficult to tell where the cartels stop and where 1:14:44.280 --> 1:14:46.320 the Mexican Army begins because a lot of them are 1:14:46.400 --> 1:14:49.240 the same thing. And like you know that there's Yeah, 1:14:49.840 --> 1:14:54.120 that's not to end on and just but just to 1:14:54.520 --> 1:14:56.200 make the ending a bit better, I do want to 1:14:56.240 --> 1:15:00.439 say I'm no longer going to call anyone U a liberal. 1:15:00.840 --> 1:15:03.519 I made this joke in the group chat yesterday and 1:15:03.560 --> 1:15:05.320 nobody responded to it, so it was set. So I'll 1:15:05.320 --> 1:15:08.240 say it now. I'm only going they called them Thomas 1:15:08.320 --> 1:15:12.280 Anderson liberals. That that that that's that's that is what 1:15:12.360 --> 1:15:16.400 I'm calling them now. Um, And I'll make everyone wait 1:15:16.520 --> 1:15:19.160 two seconds to understand what's going on and then sigh 1:15:19.240 --> 1:15:21.400 and then motion to get me out of the room. 1:15:21.720 --> 1:15:28.280 So thank you Chris for talking about them, and thank 1:15:28.320 --> 1:15:30.920 thank thank thank you all for joining us. This this 1:15:31.040 --> 1:15:34.120 has been ni could happen here? Um. You can find 1:15:34.200 --> 1:15:37.680 us on Instagram and Twitter. If you so desire, if 1:15:37.720 --> 1:15:39.559 you want to get if you want, if you want 1:15:39.640 --> 1:15:42.160 people to know that, you follow us and create a 1:15:42.200 --> 1:15:44.760 whole network of surveillance based so everyone knows what you're 1:15:44.800 --> 1:15:46.760 watching and what you're listening to, to create a better 1:15:46.840 --> 1:15:48.599 picture who you are online so you can get get 1:15:48.640 --> 1:15:53.280 better advertisements. Yeah, follow us online, joined the Panopticon. Throw 1:15:53.360 --> 1:15:55.840 bricks at it. It is pretty funny how they tricked 1:15:55.840 --> 1:15:59.320 everyone into carrying around gps is wherever they go. It's 1:15:59.640 --> 1:16:03.400 pretty funny. Yeah, it's it's amazing. It's like, oh everyone everyone, 1:16:03.439 --> 1:16:05.080 everyone in my town is like, oh, we can't get 1:16:05.120 --> 1:16:07.880 the vaccine. They have micro chips in it's like you 1:16:07.960 --> 1:16:12.840 have a phone. It's hilarious. They tricked us into carry 1:16:12.880 --> 1:16:16.640 around speakers, cabras and gps is everywhere we go. It 1:16:16.880 --> 1:16:21.320 is really funny. It's amazing. All right, Well, bye funny Fye, 1:16:34.960 --> 1:16:37.479 welcome to it could happen here? Um. The show that 1:16:37.800 --> 1:16:41.519 is normally introduced by me shouting a tonally, but today 1:16:41.720 --> 1:16:45.320 I did like a professional. Um, because today myself and 1:16:45.439 --> 1:16:48.599 my colleagues Garrison and Christopher are talking to someone I'm 1:16:48.720 --> 1:16:52.320 very excited to chat with Mr Corey. Doctor Oh Corey, 1:16:52.720 --> 1:16:55.600 welcome the show. Thank you very much. It is my 1:16:55.680 --> 1:16:57.960 pleasure to be on it. It's great to meet you 1:16:58.040 --> 1:17:01.000 all in to be talking to you today. Corey. You 1:17:01.160 --> 1:17:04.080 do a lot of writing about kind of technology and 1:17:04.320 --> 1:17:08.599 surveillance and cultural issues around those. You're also an author. 1:17:08.640 --> 1:17:11.000 You've written some great fiction. I think today will probably 1:17:11.479 --> 1:17:14.719 talk most around books like Attack Service and walk Away, 1:17:14.760 --> 1:17:17.439 but you've written a lot of wonderful stuff. Um. And 1:17:17.520 --> 1:17:19.479 you've also worked with the e f F for years 1:17:19.520 --> 1:17:22.160 and years. UM. So you you you're coming at what 1:17:22.240 --> 1:17:24.280 I love about. I mean, we're gonna be talking today 1:17:24.320 --> 1:17:27.040 broadly about surveillance and kind of the future of of 1:17:27.520 --> 1:17:29.960 the Internet. Will probably talk about some metaverse e stuff. 1:17:30.400 --> 1:17:33.360 What I love about the way in which you think 1:17:33.439 --> 1:17:35.120 and write about the future is that you're kind of 1:17:35.200 --> 1:17:37.599 coming about it from a number of angles, both as 1:17:37.680 --> 1:17:42.320 like a tech industry journalist, as a fiction writer imagining 1:17:42.360 --> 1:17:44.880 the future, and as somebody who's kind of weighted in 1:17:45.000 --> 1:17:49.040 as an activist to this and um, I'm kind of wondering, 1:17:50.000 --> 1:17:53.799 where do you see like the greatest potential for actual 1:17:54.000 --> 1:17:56.760 like change. Um? Is it? Is it in kind of 1:17:57.080 --> 1:17:59.400 is it in lobbying and engaging as an activist, or 1:17:59.479 --> 1:18:01.680 is it in sort of imagining as a as a 1:18:01.800 --> 1:18:05.120 as a fiction writer? What might be? So I I 1:18:05.240 --> 1:18:08.879 see them as adjuncts uh, you know, diversity of tactics 1:18:08.960 --> 1:18:13.439 and all that stuff. Um. The thing is that tech 1:18:13.560 --> 1:18:19.920 policy arguments are often very abstract, uh, And they are 1:18:20.080 --> 1:18:25.160 only visceral for the people who would provide the kind 1:18:25.200 --> 1:18:28.519 of political will to do something about them. Usually that 1:18:28.680 --> 1:18:31.840 that comes when it's too late, right, people, people care 1:18:31.880 --> 1:18:34.479 about tech monopolies once the web is turned into five 1:18:34.560 --> 1:18:36.840 giant websites filled with scripted shots of text from the 1:18:36.880 --> 1:18:40.759 other four. But not when Yahoo is on a buying 1:18:40.840 --> 1:18:43.240 spree of tech companies and we're saying, oh, that's how 1:18:43.320 --> 1:18:45.439 tech companies grow, and all tech companies will grow in 1:18:45.439 --> 1:18:48.360 the future by buying all their nascent competitors and rolling 1:18:48.400 --> 1:18:50.800 them up into a big vertically integrated monopoly, which is 1:18:50.880 --> 1:18:52.439 kind of how we got Facebook and Google and the 1:18:52.520 --> 1:18:55.519 rest of it. And um, you need to be able 1:18:55.560 --> 1:18:58.679 to make policy arguments to policy people but you also 1:18:58.760 --> 1:19:01.759 need to be able to put uh, some some sinew 1:19:01.840 --> 1:19:04.880 and muscle on the bone of that highly abstract kind 1:19:04.960 --> 1:19:08.000 of argument. And and that's where fiction comes in. It's 1:19:08.040 --> 1:19:12.600 kind of a like a fly through of like an 1:19:12.640 --> 1:19:16.080 emotional architects rendering of what things might look like if 1:19:16.160 --> 1:19:19.040 we get it wrong or if we change it. It 1:19:19.240 --> 1:19:21.720 preserves the sense of possibility. You know. I think one 1:19:21.760 --> 1:19:25.000 of the great enemies of change is the inevitable is 1:19:25.040 --> 1:19:27.360 um of capitalist realism and the idea that there is 1:19:27.400 --> 1:19:29.560 no alternative. So if you can make people believe in 1:19:29.600 --> 1:19:32.400 an alternative, then they might work for one. And certainly 1:19:32.439 --> 1:19:34.880 the opposite is true. If people don't believe there is 1:19:35.160 --> 1:19:38.120 any alternative possible, they won't work for one. Why why 1:19:38.200 --> 1:19:42.519 would you? Uh? And so all of that together, I 1:19:42.640 --> 1:19:46.000 think is part of how you mobilize people to care 1:19:46.040 --> 1:19:50.800 about stuff. Yeah, I mean that makes that makes total sense, 1:19:50.880 --> 1:19:54.720 and it is It's difficult, I think because I first 1:19:54.760 --> 1:19:58.679 came into technology as a journalist, and it's very difficult 1:19:58.720 --> 1:20:02.120 to get people to care about out stuff. And I 1:20:02.200 --> 1:20:05.479 think in particular privacy, which there was it has been 1:20:05.520 --> 1:20:07.840 one of the most interesting cases of like the kind 1:20:07.880 --> 1:20:11.479 of thought leaders in in an industry freaking out over 1:20:11.640 --> 1:20:13.920 something and people not really having an issue with it 1:20:14.040 --> 1:20:16.120 because we kind of all agreed to hand over all 1:20:16.160 --> 1:20:19.040 of our data to a number of big side not all, 1:20:19.200 --> 1:20:20.840 but I don't know. I'm interested in your thoughts and 1:20:20.920 --> 1:20:24.200 that I understand the idea that like fiction is um 1:20:24.600 --> 1:20:26.160 is a much better way to try to get people 1:20:26.200 --> 1:20:28.880 to care about these things because it makes them feel 1:20:28.960 --> 1:20:31.400 as opposed to kind of reporting on I think people 1:20:31.439 --> 1:20:33.600 can get kind of lost in the weeds of acquisitions 1:20:33.760 --> 1:20:37.280 and like uh pivots and you know, tech companies acquiring 1:20:37.320 --> 1:20:40.120 each other and whatnot. Well, look, I think that the 1:20:41.439 --> 1:20:44.280 part of the problem with privacy, the reason that we 1:20:45.240 --> 1:20:47.479 we're late to wake up and do something about it, 1:20:47.960 --> 1:20:50.519 is because it was obfuscated. You know, if you've ever 1:20:50.640 --> 1:20:53.720 seen the maps of like how an ad tech stock works, 1:20:53.760 --> 1:20:57.320 the flow diagrams, uh, you know, there are some things 1:20:57.400 --> 1:21:01.320 that are complicated because um, there are some things that 1:21:01.320 --> 1:21:03.519 are hard to understand because they're complicated. And then there 1:21:03.560 --> 1:21:06.400 are some things that are made complicated so they will 1:21:06.479 --> 1:21:09.120 be hard to understand. And I think in the case 1:21:09.240 --> 1:21:14.880 of the surveillance industry, the latter is true and it 1:21:15.040 --> 1:21:17.320 wasn't just that they were trying to play us for suckers, 1:21:17.400 --> 1:21:20.559 they were also playing their customers for suckers. Right. One 1:21:20.600 --> 1:21:22.479 of the reasons that the ad tex st Act is 1:21:22.560 --> 1:21:26.200 such a snarled hair ball is so that the people 1:21:26.240 --> 1:21:28.760 who buy ads and the publishers who run ads can't 1:21:28.760 --> 1:21:31.400 tell how badly they're being ripped off by their intermediaries. 1:21:31.720 --> 1:21:33.600 But this also has the side effect of making it 1:21:33.760 --> 1:21:36.680 very hard for us to know as the as the 1:21:36.800 --> 1:21:40.919 kind of inputs to that system, how our own dignity 1:21:41.040 --> 1:21:44.559 and private lives and safety and integrity are being put 1:21:44.640 --> 1:21:49.000 to risk by these systems as well. Um. And you know, 1:21:50.240 --> 1:21:52.120 it may be that people, if they had been well 1:21:52.200 --> 1:21:54.960 informed about what was going on, they might have been 1:21:55.000 --> 1:21:57.679 indifferent as well. But I think that when most people 1:21:57.760 --> 1:22:00.439 were very poorly informed, right when all theirs was this 1:22:00.600 --> 1:22:04.920 kind of that privacy discourse was just like stuff as 1:22:05.000 --> 1:22:09.120 being your personal information is being siphoned up, but no 1:22:09.439 --> 1:22:12.320 kind of specifics on how that was being used and 1:22:12.520 --> 1:22:14.519 how that was being done and how it might bring 1:22:14.640 --> 1:22:18.280 you to harm. Um, it's not clear that that you 1:22:18.360 --> 1:22:20.880 can say that that the reason they were indifferent is 1:22:21.000 --> 1:22:24.240 because they were fully informed. It didn't care if you 1:22:24.360 --> 1:22:26.479 know that they weren't fully informed. If you know that 1:22:26.560 --> 1:22:29.720 they were barely informed. M hm, I mean yeah, I 1:22:29.800 --> 1:22:32.840 think you're absolutely right. Because when the Cambridge Analytic Is 1:22:32.880 --> 1:22:34.719 scandal broke, which was I think one of the first 1:22:34.800 --> 1:22:38.040 times that there was a really huge international story that 1:22:38.120 --> 1:22:40.880 made it clear some of the consequences of all this, Like, 1:22:41.040 --> 1:22:43.320 it did provoke a lot of a lot of anger. 1:22:44.000 --> 1:22:46.960 Um I I do you worry at all that, Like 1:22:48.400 --> 1:22:51.599 there's a degree to which because it because people got 1:22:51.760 --> 1:22:53.559 tricked or whatever you want to frame it, and it's 1:22:53.600 --> 1:22:59.719 gone the the kind of um, financialization of people's private data, 1:23:00.080 --> 1:23:02.720 people's like personal information. Because that has gone so far, 1:23:03.240 --> 1:23:05.360 there's a risk that people are just kind of inured 1:23:05.439 --> 1:23:09.120 to it. Um yeah, well, well, I mean that kind 1:23:09.120 --> 1:23:11.160 of gets to my theory change here, which is that 1:23:11.720 --> 1:23:15.080 there is always going to be uh a point of 1:23:16.320 --> 1:23:20.200 maximum and difference peak indifference. You know, Um, if you 1:23:20.280 --> 1:23:25.560 think about something like being a smoker, the likelihood that 1:23:26.280 --> 1:23:30.719 you care about cancer goes up the longer you smoke 1:23:30.920 --> 1:23:34.720 and the more health effects you feel. And certainly there 1:23:34.720 --> 1:23:37.559 will come a point in your life when you will 1:23:37.680 --> 1:23:40.439 only ever grow more worried about the effects of smoking 1:23:40.720 --> 1:23:43.519 on your life. But there's also a point of no return. 1:23:44.200 --> 1:23:47.160 Right If the point at which you you're you're concern 1:23:47.720 --> 1:23:50.320 reaches the point where you're actually going to do something 1:23:50.400 --> 1:23:53.599 about smoking is the day you get diagnosed with stage 1:23:53.600 --> 1:23:59.720 four lung cancer, then that um denialism can slide into nihilism. 1:24:00.200 --> 1:24:02.800 You can say, why bother, right, it's too late. It's 1:24:02.840 --> 1:24:06.080 like if if we spend years arguing about the crashing 1:24:06.160 --> 1:24:10.519 population of rhinos and then finally there's only one left, 1:24:10.640 --> 1:24:13.360 and you say you're right, there was a problem, you 1:24:13.479 --> 1:24:15.599 might as well say, like, why don't we eat him 1:24:15.640 --> 1:24:17.240 and find out what he tastes like? It's not like 1:24:17.360 --> 1:24:19.720 the rhinos are ever going to come back, right, And 1:24:19.880 --> 1:24:23.960 so for me, so much of the work is about 1:24:24.120 --> 1:24:27.439 shifting the point of peak indifference to the left of 1:24:27.520 --> 1:24:30.880 the point of no return on the timeline, so that 1:24:31.320 --> 1:24:35.080 people actually start to care earlier, because it's it's it's 1:24:35.240 --> 1:24:38.400 if you haven't a genuine problem, right, like the overcollection 1:24:38.439 --> 1:24:40.840 of our private data, the mishandling of it, the abuse 1:24:40.920 --> 1:24:45.679 of it, that genuine problem will eventually produce tangible effects 1:24:45.720 --> 1:24:49.080 that are undeniable, right that the the our ability to 1:24:49.160 --> 1:24:52.000 ignore it just goes monotonically down. It's the thing about 1:24:52.040 --> 1:24:56.200 the climate emergency. You know, even if Shell had not 1:24:56.400 --> 1:24:59.560 our Exxon had not hidden the data had had on 1:24:59.640 --> 1:25:02.400 the role that it's products were playing in climate change 1:25:02.439 --> 1:25:04.920 in the seventies, it would have been hard to muster 1:25:05.000 --> 1:25:07.479 a sense of urgency in the seventies, right, because the 1:25:07.760 --> 1:25:10.360 story is that in fifty years something bad's going to happen. 1:25:10.439 --> 1:25:13.000 But here we are, fifty years on something bad is 1:25:13.080 --> 1:25:15.840 really happening, and a lot of people are caring about it. 1:25:16.439 --> 1:25:18.560 They still don't seem to care about it enough, or 1:25:18.680 --> 1:25:21.280 maybe they've slid into nihilism. There's certainly, I think on 1:25:21.360 --> 1:25:24.439 the part of the elites, a kind of nihilistic sense 1:25:25.000 --> 1:25:27.800 that maybe they can all retreat to like mountaintops and 1:25:27.920 --> 1:25:32.160 build fortresses and breathe their children by harrier jet, you know, 1:25:32.439 --> 1:25:36.800 and and and you know that nihilism, I think is 1:25:37.080 --> 1:25:40.240 is what you get when the point of no return 1:25:40.520 --> 1:25:45.800 has passed before peak denial. Uh and the privacy um 1:25:46.840 --> 1:25:49.760 catastrophe that is looming in our future that we haven't 1:25:49.840 --> 1:25:51.960 quite reached yet. I mean, we've just had the first 1:25:52.520 --> 1:25:56.479 kind of trickles of the dam breaking that's in our future. 1:25:57.320 --> 1:26:00.320 It hasn't been enough yet to shift people away from it. 1:26:00.760 --> 1:26:02.720 But but we might be getting there, right, We might 1:26:02.880 --> 1:26:06.080 We might eventually be able to do something about it. 1:26:06.520 --> 1:26:08.519 And one of the things that will hasten that moment 1:26:09.760 --> 1:26:14.600 is um restoring competition to those industries. That one of 1:26:14.640 --> 1:26:18.040 the reasons that uh, the industry that spies on us 1:26:18.760 --> 1:26:23.519 is able to foster denial and indifference is because it 1:26:23.760 --> 1:26:26.960 is a monopolized industry. To companies control eighty percent of 1:26:27.040 --> 1:26:32.640 the ad market, Google and Facebook, and as as monopolist, 1:26:32.640 --> 1:26:35.320 they're able to extract huge monopoly rents. They're among the 1:26:35.360 --> 1:26:38.040 most profitable companies in the history of the world. And 1:26:38.400 --> 1:26:40.960 some of those monopoly rents, rather than being returned to shareholders, 1:26:41.000 --> 1:26:44.160 can be mobilized to distort policy, to to make us 1:26:44.360 --> 1:26:46.720 think that there's nothing wrong with the way that they 1:26:46.800 --> 1:26:51.080 collect data and use it to forestall regulation, to pay 1:26:51.200 --> 1:26:54.439 Nick Clegg four million a year to go around Europe 1:26:54.479 --> 1:26:56.800 and the world and say, as the former Deputy Prime 1:26:56.840 --> 1:26:59.040 Minister of the United Kingdom, I'm here to tell you 1:26:59.120 --> 1:27:01.840 that Facebook is a friend of the democratic regimes of 1:27:01.880 --> 1:27:06.679 the world. And and you know, if if the anti 1:27:06.760 --> 1:27:09.599 monopoly movement, which is a thing I've become very involved 1:27:09.680 --> 1:27:13.160 with is able to go from strength to strength. It's 1:27:13.200 --> 1:27:16.000 surging now. Then one of the things that we might 1:27:16.080 --> 1:27:21.000 do is is destroy the ammunition that's being used by 1:27:21.120 --> 1:27:24.960 these large monopolistic firms to distort our policy and harm 1:27:25.080 --> 1:27:28.240 us in these ways with impunity, and and then maybe 1:27:28.360 --> 1:27:33.160 we can actually take the the nascent and natural alarm 1:27:33.280 --> 1:27:37.639 that people do feel about the invasions of their privacy 1:27:38.280 --> 1:27:42.680 and and actually turn that into privacy policy that is 1:27:42.800 --> 1:27:45.719 meaningful in respect of these big companies that actually reigns 1:27:45.760 --> 1:27:49.479 them in. Yeah, And I think I like that you 1:27:49.680 --> 1:27:52.840 frame it as a privacy catastrophe because I think, I mean, 1:27:53.080 --> 1:27:55.200 what I just exhibited earlier in this episode, is this 1:27:55.720 --> 1:27:58.640 this tendency that I certainly see in myself and I 1:27:58.680 --> 1:28:00.479 see in other people to get kind of eaten down 1:28:00.760 --> 1:28:04.000 by the continued um excesses of this industry and the 1:28:04.040 --> 1:28:06.600 continued kind of failure of anything to be done to 1:28:06.720 --> 1:28:08.439 curb it. And I think you're right, it has to 1:28:08.520 --> 1:28:12.479 be viewed as um as a calamity. And I and 1:28:12.600 --> 1:28:14.720 nothing I think makes that clearer than some of the 1:28:15.600 --> 1:28:18.080 watching some of the stuff Facebook in particular has put 1:28:18.080 --> 1:28:20.080 out about their plans for the metaverse and kind of 1:28:20.200 --> 1:28:22.760 thinking back from all of these sensors they want to 1:28:22.840 --> 1:28:24.280 store in your house, all of the ways in which 1:28:24.280 --> 1:28:27.280 they want to map everything around you. Um, they never 1:28:27.680 --> 1:28:29.880 you know, they they kind of advertise as like you'll 1:28:29.880 --> 1:28:31.920 be able to play basketball with somebody who's in a 1:28:32.000 --> 1:28:34.479 different state, But really what it is is you're giving 1:28:34.520 --> 1:28:38.200 Facebook access to every measurement of your body and you know, 1:28:38.360 --> 1:28:40.280 the pulse of the beat of your heart and all 1:28:40.360 --> 1:28:43.200 this this stuff that like maybe we don't quite know 1:28:44.000 --> 1:28:47.519 what it would be useful for from financialization standpoint, but 1:28:47.560 --> 1:28:50.439 they it's unsettling to think that they'll have to find 1:28:50.479 --> 1:28:52.439 a way because they'll have it. You know, I don't know. 1:28:52.840 --> 1:28:54.519 I don't know what is to be done about that, 1:28:54.680 --> 1:28:57.320 other than, as you say, kind of breaking up these monopolies. 1:28:57.720 --> 1:29:00.240 Well and and I mean breaking up is like one 1:29:00.280 --> 1:29:02.280 of the things we can do to monopolies. And and 1:29:02.360 --> 1:29:05.080 it takes a long time, you know, Um A T 1:29:05.240 --> 1:29:09.320 and T. The first enforcement action against it happened sixty 1:29:09.400 --> 1:29:12.200 nine years before it was broken up in nineteen two. 1:29:12.560 --> 1:29:14.360 I don't think we can wait that long. But there's 1:29:14.360 --> 1:29:16.679 a lot of intermediate steps, right like we can force 1:29:16.800 --> 1:29:20.519 them to do interoperability. We can block them from from 1:29:21.360 --> 1:29:25.200 predatory acquisitions. We can force them to divest of companies 1:29:25.240 --> 1:29:28.320 and engage in structural separation. We can do all kinds 1:29:28.360 --> 1:29:30.240 of things. It actually looks like the United Kingdom is 1:29:30.240 --> 1:29:33.120 going to stop them from buying Giffee, which might seem 1:29:33.280 --> 1:29:36.680 trivial after all, it's just like animated jifts, but um, 1:29:37.320 --> 1:29:40.920 what it actually is a surveillance beacons in every social 1:29:41.000 --> 1:29:45.639 media application, right because if you're hosting a Jeff from 1:29:45.680 --> 1:29:50.560 Giffee in your message to someone else, Facebook has telemetry 1:29:50.600 --> 1:29:55.400 about that message. Um. And so the the the not 1:29:55.560 --> 1:29:58.320 the i c O, the Competition Competition and Markets Authority 1:29:58.320 --> 1:30:00.439 in the UK was like, yeah, this is just going 1:30:00.479 --> 1:30:02.879 to strengthen your market power. That's why you're buying this company. 1:30:03.439 --> 1:30:05.599 You have too much market power already. We're not gonna 1:30:05.680 --> 1:30:09.040 let you do it. Um. It was almost the case 1:30:09.120 --> 1:30:11.840 that the Fitbit merger was blocked Google's Fitbit merger. I 1:30:11.960 --> 1:30:14.200 think it's still not too late to roll it back. 1:30:14.280 --> 1:30:17.160 And Lena Cohn, who's the new fire breathing dragon in 1:30:17.280 --> 1:30:20.960 charge of the FTC, who is an astonishing person who 1:30:21.080 --> 1:30:25.000 was a law student three years ago. Uh, she has said, 1:30:25.320 --> 1:30:27.920 oh yeah, this this like one point three trillion dollars 1:30:27.960 --> 1:30:30.200 worth of mergers and acquisitions that you're doing right now 1:30:30.400 --> 1:30:32.639 to get in under the wire before we start enforcing. 1:30:33.040 --> 1:30:36.040 Guess what, We're gonna unwind those fucking mergers if it 1:30:36.120 --> 1:30:38.680 looks like they were anti competitive. And not only are 1:30:38.720 --> 1:30:40.200 you going to lose all the money you spent on 1:30:40.240 --> 1:30:42.240 the M and A due diligence and the paperwork and 1:30:42.280 --> 1:30:44.720 the corporate stuff, but all that integration you're going to 1:30:44.800 --> 1:30:46.760 do between now and then, you're gonna have to de 1:30:47.000 --> 1:30:49.920 integrate those companies when we tell you that you don't 1:30:49.960 --> 1:30:53.719 have uh, you don't have merger approval and you're on notice. 1:30:53.800 --> 1:30:56.800 You can't come and complain later, right Like, you can 1:30:56.880 --> 1:30:58.800 either get in line and wait for us to tell 1:30:58.920 --> 1:31:01.720 you whether an out your merger is legal, or you 1:31:01.800 --> 1:31:03.720 can roll the dice. But I tell you what, if 1:31:03.760 --> 1:31:06.880 you come up sneake, guys, you are fucked. And that 1:31:07.120 --> 1:31:10.879 is amazing, right, That is a powerful change in American 1:31:10.920 --> 1:31:15.040 industrial policy that really makes a difference. Yeah, I mean, 1:31:15.080 --> 1:31:18.240 and that is a beautiful thing to think of being 1:31:18.320 --> 1:31:21.479 in place and actually hitting as hard as it could. Obviously, 1:31:21.600 --> 1:31:24.519 the concern is that like who will be you know, 1:31:24.600 --> 1:31:27.400 picking the head of the FTC in three years in change? 1:31:27.439 --> 1:31:30.240 And like how how how much influence is Peter tal 1:31:30.280 --> 1:31:32.960 going to have their in the Like um, yeah, well, 1:31:33.040 --> 1:31:35.840 and Peter Til of course loves monopolies. He says competition 1:31:35.960 --> 1:31:39.679 is for losers. So you're right, I mean, obviously elections 1:31:39.720 --> 1:31:43.160 have consequences, but you know, one of the ways that 1:31:43.240 --> 1:31:46.280 you win elections is by making material differences in people's lives, 1:31:46.800 --> 1:31:51.000 and so you know, if people are policy, then uh. 1:31:52.080 --> 1:31:54.400 One of the most important policies Biden has set so 1:31:54.560 --> 1:31:58.160 far is hiring Lena Khan and her colleagues cantor at 1:31:58.160 --> 1:32:01.240 the d o J and Tim Wu and the White House. Yeah, 1:32:01.280 --> 1:32:03.880 I mean I would I would love nothing more than 1:32:03.920 --> 1:32:07.519 to see particularly like Facebook reigned in at this point 1:32:07.560 --> 1:32:10.040 because I'm one of the casualties of the of the 1:32:10.400 --> 1:32:13.960 of the the ad market like crash of started in 1:32:14.040 --> 1:32:18.080 like two sixteen seventeen. It feels like the odds of 1:32:18.120 --> 1:32:21.080 them being able to like, I don't know, we we've 1:32:21.120 --> 1:32:26.400 got three years where we know, you know, theoretically these 1:32:26.479 --> 1:32:29.640 policies will be in place, and and I don't know, 1:32:29.720 --> 1:32:31.840 I'm hopeful, Like when I when I because the Republicans 1:32:31.880 --> 1:32:34.479 are talking a lot about regulating social media too, about 1:32:34.560 --> 1:32:37.080 even breaking up these companies, but they often tend to 1:32:37.120 --> 1:32:38.960 be talking about it in a very different way and 1:32:39.040 --> 1:32:42.080 with a very different kind of end goal in mind. Um, 1:32:42.840 --> 1:32:45.839 And I guess you know, obviously they know that, right Facebook, 1:32:45.920 --> 1:32:48.600 they are well aware that like this might be a 1:32:48.640 --> 1:32:50.760 weight out the clock situation for them, and they have 1:32:50.920 --> 1:32:53.560 some arrows in that quiver. I mean that may be so, 1:32:53.720 --> 1:32:56.960 but also remember that Facebook's users are outside of the US, 1:32:57.600 --> 1:33:00.439 and that even a change in a minister aation here 1:33:00.479 --> 1:33:04.720 won't won't um put Marguerite vest Dagger, who's the Competition 1:33:04.800 --> 1:33:07.360 commissioner in the EU, back in the bottle. And she's 1:33:07.360 --> 1:33:10.640 another fire breather, right, She's another amazing person, And so 1:33:10.840 --> 1:33:13.639 you know, I wouldn't be too quick to write that off. 1:33:13.680 --> 1:33:17.240 I mean, Facebook needs its foreign markets. Yes, It's U 1:33:17.400 --> 1:33:19.320 S customers are worth more to anyone else because we 1:33:19.400 --> 1:33:22.599 have the most primitive privacy frameworks, so it can extract 1:33:22.640 --> 1:33:24.160 a lot more data for like we're the we're the 1:33:24.280 --> 1:33:27.840 richest people with the worst privacy. So that's that's um, 1:33:28.360 --> 1:33:30.679 you know, it's a real home court advantage for Facebook. 1:33:30.720 --> 1:33:32.799 But it needs that other eight percent of its users. 1:33:32.840 --> 1:33:35.120 It wouldn't be what it is without them, and that 1:33:35.240 --> 1:33:37.840 makes it subject to their jurisdiction. And you know, one 1:33:37.840 --> 1:33:41.639 of the things about ad driven firms like Facebook, UM 1:33:41.960 --> 1:33:46.120 is that they really need sales offices in country. Uh 1:33:46.320 --> 1:33:49.120 So you know, even before we we had the proliferation 1:33:49.200 --> 1:33:51.280 national firewalls, which don't get me wrong, I don't think 1:33:51.320 --> 1:33:56.560 it's a good thing. UM. These large global firms that 1:33:56.800 --> 1:34:00.840 operated UM sales offices in country, in every territory they 1:34:00.920 --> 1:34:03.920 worked in, were vulnerable to regulation because if you have 1:34:04.200 --> 1:34:07.320 staff in a country, then you have someone that can 1:34:07.360 --> 1:34:11.760 be arrested, right, And so it's not like they can 1:34:12.680 --> 1:34:15.200 just be like I don't know, like the Tour Project, 1:34:15.600 --> 1:34:19.200 which just you know, it has people um who who 1:34:19.320 --> 1:34:22.040 sit and hack on tour who are close to lawyers 1:34:22.080 --> 1:34:25.400 who can defend people who sit on hack and on tour. Uh. 1:34:25.640 --> 1:34:28.040 You know, if the Tour Project had to have staff 1:34:28.120 --> 1:34:32.879 full time in Turkey and China and Russia and Syria 1:34:33.040 --> 1:34:36.439 in order to operate, it would be a very different project. 1:34:36.800 --> 1:34:40.040 But you know, Facebook and Twitter and Google, they all 1:34:40.160 --> 1:34:43.080 have staff in those countries, and it makes them vulnerable 1:34:43.120 --> 1:34:47.080 to regulation and So you know, China is really interesting 1:34:47.120 --> 1:34:51.280 because because m jin Ping, for his own reasons, which 1:34:51.320 --> 1:34:55.160 are not my reasons and distinct from the Democrats and 1:34:55.200 --> 1:34:58.200 the Republicans reasons, is doing stuff to rein in big 1:34:58.280 --> 1:35:01.120 tech in China. And it's a actually quite interesting because 1:35:01.160 --> 1:35:03.000 you know the argument that Nick Klegg makes when he 1:35:03.040 --> 1:35:05.640 says why we shouldn't break up Facebook, as he says, uh, 1:35:06.120 --> 1:35:09.840 you know, China is coming for your UM, for your 1:35:09.960 --> 1:35:14.280 I P and for your industrial competitiveness with its big 1:35:14.360 --> 1:35:17.559 tech giants that it treats as national champions that projects 1:35:17.560 --> 1:35:21.040 soft power around the world. Meanwhile, China is like these 1:35:21.120 --> 1:35:24.000 tech giants, we hate these tech giants. They present a 1:35:24.080 --> 1:35:27.040 countervailing force to the hedgeminy of the the Communist Party 1:35:27.080 --> 1:35:29.439 and the and the executive branch that she should bring 1:35:29.479 --> 1:35:31.800 sets at the top of We're gonna neuter them and 1:35:31.840 --> 1:35:35.080 we're gonna we're gonna disappear their founders like Jack Montt 1:35:35.280 --> 1:35:39.280 fucking googlogs right Like, they're like, we don't want national 1:35:39.439 --> 1:35:42.760 champions because the nation that you know, we Bow and 1:35:42.920 --> 1:35:45.880 Ali Baba is the champion four is we Bow and 1:35:45.920 --> 1:35:49.000 Ali Baba and ten Cent. They're not They're not champions 1:35:49.080 --> 1:35:52.280 for China by any stretch of the imagination. They don't 1:35:52.280 --> 1:35:54.960 give a shit about China, and so you know, they're 1:35:55.280 --> 1:35:58.320 all of these companies are going to face regulatory pressure, 1:35:58.720 --> 1:36:02.560 anti monopoly, regular tory pressure all over the world, and 1:36:02.680 --> 1:36:06.840 you're you're so much more um optimistic. I guess about 1:36:07.160 --> 1:36:09.800 about the potential for that to bite than a lot 1:36:09.840 --> 1:36:11.760 of people I talked to, and I think more knowledgeable 1:36:11.800 --> 1:36:13.760 as well. And I kind of wonder because there's this 1:36:13.920 --> 1:36:17.960 very strong, obviously influenced by decades of cyberpunk attitude that like, 1:36:18.080 --> 1:36:21.760 we're in this age of mega corporations whose power is 1:36:22.040 --> 1:36:25.280 you know, there's nothing that can stop Amazon from doing 1:36:25.320 --> 1:36:27.160 what Amazon wants to do, right, Facebook is going to 1:36:27.280 --> 1:36:29.680 keep doing whatever they want to do forever. You you 1:36:29.800 --> 1:36:32.680 clearly don't believe that, and I you know you, you 1:36:32.800 --> 1:36:36.439 clearly know your stuff. I'm wondering why you think that 1:36:37.640 --> 1:36:40.920 that image is still persist, so persistent that like attitude 1:36:41.000 --> 1:36:44.680 in our heads of these these these are kind of 1:36:44.800 --> 1:36:48.160 monolithic forces in our society that um just have to 1:36:48.240 --> 1:36:51.280 be endured. So I think it's a belief in the 1:36:51.400 --> 1:36:55.240 great forces of history, right, UM, and the great man theory. 1:36:55.880 --> 1:37:00.439 You know that the the these um uh you know 1:37:00.560 --> 1:37:05.519 that these rich people are driving history. Yeah, these these 1:37:05.680 --> 1:37:08.400 these powerful figures are driving history. They're in charge there 1:37:08.439 --> 1:37:10.160 in the driver's seat. I mean, that's kind of what's 1:37:10.200 --> 1:37:12.800 behind Trump arrangement syndrome, right, the idea that Trump is 1:37:12.840 --> 1:37:17.920 a uniquely powerful and talented demagogue as opposed to just 1:37:18.200 --> 1:37:21.280 like a demagogue shaped puzzle piece that fit in the 1:37:21.360 --> 1:37:24.360 demagogue shaped hole that was left by the collapse of 1:37:24.400 --> 1:37:27.599 credibility of capitalism. Uh. And you know, a man who 1:37:27.720 --> 1:37:30.080 is clearly too stupid to be a cause of anything, 1:37:30.120 --> 1:37:34.000 that will only ever be the effect of something. And uh, 1:37:35.000 --> 1:37:38.679 you know the for me, the theory of of history 1:37:38.840 --> 1:37:43.480 and how it goes was really transformed by an exercise 1:37:43.600 --> 1:37:46.280 that my friend Ada Palmer does. So. Aida is a 1:37:46.439 --> 1:37:49.639 science fiction novelist. She's she's just published the fourth book 1:37:49.680 --> 1:37:52.360 of her Terra Ignota series, her debut series. It's in 1:37:52.400 --> 1:37:55.640 an incredible series of books. But she's a real like 1:37:55.720 --> 1:37:58.520 kind of multi talented, multi threat. So she's a librettist 1:37:58.600 --> 1:38:02.040 and singer who's pretty album length operas based on the 1:38:02.200 --> 1:38:07.080 Norse mythos. She's also a tenured history of UM, a 1:38:07.160 --> 1:38:10.479 tenured professor of Renaissance history in Florence at the University 1:38:10.479 --> 1:38:16.320 of Chicago, where she studies heterodox information, pornography, homosexuality, witchcraft, 1:38:16.400 --> 1:38:19.439 and so on. During the inquisitions and every year with 1:38:19.600 --> 1:38:24.160 her undergrads, she reenacts through a four week long live 1:38:24.200 --> 1:38:26.960 action role playing game, the Election of the Medici's Pope, 1:38:27.640 --> 1:38:29.960 and each of her students takes on the role of 1:38:30.040 --> 1:38:34.080 a cardinal from a great family and the in the 1:38:34.200 --> 1:38:38.920 actual election of the I forget what year was, uh fifteen, 1:38:39.120 --> 1:38:43.800 fourteen ninety or something, I forget, but they each take 1:38:43.880 --> 1:38:47.640 on this role and they have a character sheet and 1:38:47.760 --> 1:38:50.680 has motivations like a dinner party, murder mystery. But for 1:38:50.880 --> 1:38:55.720 four weeks they make alliances, break alliances, stab each other 1:38:55.800 --> 1:38:59.519 in the back uh stage surprise reversals, and at the 1:38:59.600 --> 1:39:03.960 end of the weeks there's a u faux Gothic cathedral 1:39:04.120 --> 1:39:08.160 on campus and they dress up in costume. Aida has 1:39:08.240 --> 1:39:11.719 a a Google alert for theater companies that are getting 1:39:11.800 --> 1:39:14.320 rid of their costumes, so she clothes them in the 1:39:14.520 --> 1:39:19.680 garb of the Medici's cardinals, and they gather and they 1:39:19.800 --> 1:39:22.160 go into a room and then a puff of smoke 1:39:22.240 --> 1:39:25.960 emerges and you get the new Pope and every year 1:39:26.760 --> 1:39:30.040 four of the final candidates, uh, there are four final 1:39:30.080 --> 1:39:32.559 candidates rather, and two of them are always the same 1:39:33.320 --> 1:39:35.560 because the great forces of history bear down on that 1:39:35.720 --> 1:39:38.040 moment to say those people will absolutely be in the 1:39:38.120 --> 1:39:42.519 running for the for the papacy, and two of them 1:39:42.600 --> 1:39:47.439 have never once been the same, because human action still 1:39:47.640 --> 1:39:52.080 has space to alter the outcomes that are prefigured by 1:39:52.120 --> 1:39:56.400 the great forces of history. And so for me, the 1:39:56.560 --> 1:39:59.439 idea of being an optimist or a pessimist has always 1:39:59.479 --> 1:40:03.080 felt very fatalistic. It's this either way, this idea that 1:40:03.120 --> 1:40:05.080 the great forces of history have determined the outcome and 1:40:05.160 --> 1:40:07.800 human action has no bearing on it. And I think 1:40:07.880 --> 1:40:12.000 that rather than optimism or pessimism, we can be hopeful. 1:40:12.080 --> 1:40:14.680 And that's the word you use before. Hope is the 1:40:14.800 --> 1:40:17.040 idea not that you can see a path from here 1:40:17.120 --> 1:40:19.519 to the place you want to get to, but rather 1:40:19.640 --> 1:40:21.439 that you haven't run out of things that you can 1:40:21.520 --> 1:40:24.560 do to advance your your goal, right, Because if you 1:40:24.680 --> 1:40:27.599 can take a step to advance your goal, you can 1:40:27.640 --> 1:40:31.719 ascend the gradient towards the peak that you're trying to reach, 1:40:32.280 --> 1:40:35.280 then you will attain a new vantage point, and from 1:40:35.360 --> 1:40:37.759 that vantage point you may have revealed to you courses 1:40:37.800 --> 1:40:41.240 of action that you didn't suspect before you took that step. 1:40:41.520 --> 1:40:43.759 So so long as the step is available, there's always 1:40:43.800 --> 1:40:46.360 another step lurking in the wings that you can't see 1:40:46.439 --> 1:40:49.160 from where you are. And the reason I'm hopeful about 1:40:49.200 --> 1:40:52.240 this is I can think of like fifty things that 1:40:52.360 --> 1:40:56.240 could improve the monopoly picture that we're living in now, 1:40:56.680 --> 1:40:59.400 and it's up from thirty things last year. And so 1:40:59.760 --> 1:41:01.519 even though I don't know how we get from here 1:41:01.600 --> 1:41:03.800 to a better future, and even though I absolutely see 1:41:03.800 --> 1:41:08.759 the blockers you're talking about Trump landslide, uh losing Congress 1:41:08.840 --> 1:41:12.560 because they let Joe Mansion and Christmas Cinema newter the 1:41:12.760 --> 1:41:15.880 build back better, Bill, Um, you know all of those 1:41:15.960 --> 1:41:19.400 things that can happen. I have hope, you know, which 1:41:19.479 --> 1:41:21.920 is not the same as optimism or a belief that 1:41:22.120 --> 1:41:25.320 things will be great, or even even like a sense 1:41:25.760 --> 1:41:27.880 a lack of a sense of foreboding. I have that 1:41:28.040 --> 1:41:31.559 in spades. But I have hoped that when the next 1:41:31.600 --> 1:41:34.240 phase of the fight begins, that we will have many 1:41:34.760 --> 1:41:38.760 um vulnerable spots we can strike at, and that we 1:41:38.920 --> 1:41:42.439 can capitalize on whichever victories we attain to find more 1:41:42.520 --> 1:41:46.280 vulnerabilities and move on. I think that's so important and 1:41:46.439 --> 1:41:48.360 I think it goes in line with to bring up 1:41:48.360 --> 1:41:50.240 climate change again. The idea that like one of the 1:41:50.280 --> 1:41:52.920 most toxic things you can think are e climate change 1:41:52.960 --> 1:41:55.639 is that there's nothing to do. We're already past every 1:41:55.680 --> 1:41:58.639 point of no return and there's no there's no positive 1:41:58.680 --> 1:42:00.519 action because it just leads you to doing the same 1:42:00.600 --> 1:42:03.439 thing as the people who deny it. UM and it's 1:42:03.520 --> 1:42:06.920 it's yeah, I think it's it's very important to um 1:42:07.800 --> 1:42:10.080 recognized that like, not only are there things you can do, 1:42:10.240 --> 1:42:12.439 but when you do those things, you start taking those steps, 1:42:12.520 --> 1:42:17.000 other steps reveal themselves. Yeah, and you know what, if 1:42:17.040 --> 1:42:21.679 you're feeling nihilistic about about climate I'm nearly through Saul 1:42:21.720 --> 1:42:25.519 Griffith's book Electrify Uh. Saul's an old friend of mine. 1:42:25.560 --> 1:42:29.240 He's MacArthur Winner's electrical engineer, and he's just done the 1:42:29.400 --> 1:42:31.400 He's it's a popular engineering book. It's one of my 1:42:31.439 --> 1:42:34.760 favorite genres. They're like popular science books, except instead of 1:42:34.840 --> 1:42:36.679 telling you about how science works, they tell you about 1:42:36.680 --> 1:42:40.200 how engineering works. And he's basically like, here is why 1:42:40.320 --> 1:42:43.360 all the estimates of how much renewables we need are 1:42:43.680 --> 1:42:49.799 hugely overestimated, and it's basically that like keeping uh fossil 1:42:49.880 --> 1:42:53.680 fuel power online requires a lot of fossil fuel, right, 1:42:53.760 --> 1:42:57.160 so something like of that estimate is just it's the 1:42:57.479 --> 1:43:00.439 energy that we need to make the energy, and it's 1:43:00.479 --> 1:43:03.640 not present in electrical models. Here's how we can manufacture it. 1:43:03.720 --> 1:43:06.200 Here's how we can distribute it. Here is basically how 1:43:07.040 --> 1:43:11.840 if we can figure out the financing, Americans can uh 1:43:12.240 --> 1:43:15.040 spend less money every year than they do now to 1:43:15.200 --> 1:43:18.080 get more stuff that they love every year. That we 1:43:18.160 --> 1:43:22.479 can do this without hair shirts. It's a spectacular book. Um, 1:43:22.640 --> 1:43:25.519 And you know, I don't agree with everything Saul says 1:43:25.600 --> 1:43:29.639 every all the time, but he is very careful about 1:43:30.000 --> 1:43:33.960 his technical facts. There aren't technical errors in this. There 1:43:34.040 --> 1:43:36.479 might be assumptions that we disagree with, but as a 1:43:36.560 --> 1:43:39.880 technical matter, he's basically written a piece of design fiction 1:43:40.320 --> 1:43:44.040 in which, over the next fifteen years, using clever finance 1:43:44.320 --> 1:43:48.800 and and solid engineering, we really actually do avert the 1:43:48.880 --> 1:43:53.240 climate emergency. And yeah, as always, kind of the main 1:43:53.840 --> 1:43:56.560 barriers to doing the best version of the thing is 1:43:56.880 --> 1:43:59.800 the political realities on the ground. You know, you have to, 1:44:00.600 --> 1:44:02.479 but I think that's the that's the value of at 1:44:02.520 --> 1:44:05.519 least trying to make it clear that there are options. 1:44:06.600 --> 1:44:09.400 I wanted to shift for a moment um. I was 1:44:09.479 --> 1:44:12.639 thinking recently about I think probably the earliest back book 1:44:12.680 --> 1:44:16.439 of yours that I've read, Pirate Cinema, which is heavily involved. 1:44:16.439 --> 1:44:19.360 I think I'm gonna you know, if you're one of 1:44:19.439 --> 1:44:22.040 the folks like me who was on the Internet back 1:44:22.080 --> 1:44:25.080 when you know, file sharing sites, when that was a 1:44:25.160 --> 1:44:27.640 huge topic of discussion, when the r i A Was 1:44:27.720 --> 1:44:31.560 going after people, when like copyright was kind of a 1:44:32.080 --> 1:44:37.040 a much more prevalent part of kind of the online discourse. Um. 1:44:37.320 --> 1:44:39.400 It deals a lot in that and these kind of 1:44:39.640 --> 1:44:42.440 I think there's elements of it that kind of prefigured 1:44:42.520 --> 1:44:46.920 what Disney has done buying up every imaginable fictional property 1:44:46.960 --> 1:44:49.320 in the world. And that's kind of the the elements 1:44:49.360 --> 1:44:52.400 of dystopia that book deals with is is, you know, 1:44:52.479 --> 1:44:56.120 the attempts of these this these giant multinational entertainment corporations 1:44:56.200 --> 1:44:59.559 to shut down the free tape trading of ideas, remixing 1:44:59.600 --> 1:45:02.559 and all that stuff. And then kind of thinking about 1:45:02.600 --> 1:45:05.400 the difference between the focus of that and the focus 1:45:05.479 --> 1:45:08.080 of books like Attack Surface, where you're really delving more 1:45:08.160 --> 1:45:11.559 into you know, I the fictional versions of real life 1:45:11.600 --> 1:45:15.040 companies like Tiger Swan that do it, uh what the 1:45:15.280 --> 1:45:18.800 surveillance on protesters and all around the world, and that 1:45:18.880 --> 1:45:22.880 are kind of using tactics that were pioneered by other contractors, 1:45:22.920 --> 1:45:26.920 and like Iraq and Afghanistan years earlier. I guess kind 1:45:26.960 --> 1:45:28.640 of the things that I find interesting about that as 1:45:28.760 --> 1:45:31.360 as I can remember when I was first on the Internet, 1:45:31.560 --> 1:45:35.240 the big social kind of crusades online with the people 1:45:35.920 --> 1:45:38.120 that that I paid attention to at least was all 1:45:38.160 --> 1:45:40.880 around copyright. It was about not just you know, the 1:45:40.960 --> 1:45:44.519 attempts to stop people from remixing and sharing copyrighted work, 1:45:44.560 --> 1:45:49.200 but about um attempts to like buy up copyrights and 1:45:49.439 --> 1:45:55.040 like into these these ever kind of larger uh agglomerations, 1:45:55.160 --> 1:45:57.960 and and that's kind of hit. It seems to have 1:45:58.120 --> 1:46:00.719 hit like a terminal point with the you know, movies 1:46:00.840 --> 1:46:03.760 like ready Player one and kind of a lot of 1:46:03.800 --> 1:46:05.800 the stuff we're seeing in Marble where everything is showing 1:46:05.880 --> 1:46:10.599 up everywhere, Space Jam two. UM. I guess the part 1:46:10.640 --> 1:46:12.960 of it that feels less dystopian the days attempts to 1:46:13.000 --> 1:46:15.920 crack down on file sharing, which I don't think went 1:46:16.240 --> 1:46:18.759 kind of in the worst case scenario. I'm interested actually 1:46:18.800 --> 1:46:21.280 in your thoughts on that, UM, because I can remember, 1:46:21.360 --> 1:46:23.879 you know, when the r I A would be threatening 1:46:23.920 --> 1:46:26.840 people with years in jail and whatnot over sharing stuff 1:46:26.880 --> 1:46:29.479 on kaza we seem to be I don't know. Is 1:46:29.520 --> 1:46:31.360 it just that it gets less like I'm interested in 1:46:31.400 --> 1:46:32.680 your in your thoughts on that. Is it just that 1:46:32.760 --> 1:46:36.000 it's less publicized when they crack down on people, or 1:46:36.040 --> 1:46:38.080 has kind of the nature of their response to that 1:46:38.240 --> 1:46:41.120 really changed. Well, I think that what's happened with the 1:46:41.840 --> 1:46:44.640 kind of steady state of the copyright wars has been 1:46:44.680 --> 1:46:48.840 the introduction of um brittleness and fragility into our speech 1:46:48.880 --> 1:46:53.599 platforms like Twitter, uh and and Facebook and YouTube, where 1:46:53.600 --> 1:46:56.960 it's very easy to get material removed by by making 1:46:57.040 --> 1:47:00.280 copyright claims UM. And you know, we see out with 1:47:00.400 --> 1:47:03.760 the sleazier side of the reputation management industry where they 1:47:03.880 --> 1:47:08.840 use bogus copyright claims to take down criticisms. You know, 1:47:08.960 --> 1:47:12.000 there was a group of leftists who are really celebrating 1:47:12.160 --> 1:47:15.040 the idea that if you if Nazis were marching in 1:47:15.080 --> 1:47:18.000 your town, you could stop them from uploading their videos 1:47:18.080 --> 1:47:20.760 by playing copyrighted music in the background, and I was like, 1:47:21.320 --> 1:47:23.920 you have no idea, what a terrible fucking idea that is. 1:47:24.320 --> 1:47:26.960 And you know, within a couple of years, cops and 1:47:27.040 --> 1:47:29.439 Beverly Hills were doing it. Whenever people tried to film 1:47:29.479 --> 1:47:31.519 the police there, they would just turn on some Taylor 1:47:31.600 --> 1:47:34.560 Swift to try and stop uploading. UM. You know, the 1:47:34.920 --> 1:47:39.519 thing about the copyright wars is that the real action 1:47:39.760 --> 1:47:45.160 turned out to be in UM wage theft through monopolization. So, 1:47:45.439 --> 1:47:50.960 you know, the neutering and destruction of label independent music 1:47:51.040 --> 1:47:55.280 distribution platforms like Khazah or Groster or Napster, and the 1:47:55.360 --> 1:47:59.840 Supreme Court decision, the Groster decision that supported that meant 1:48:00.000 --> 1:48:02.600 that the only UM way that you could launch a 1:48:02.680 --> 1:48:05.719 service like that was in cooperation with the big labels, 1:48:06.320 --> 1:48:10.679 and the you know, most successful one is Spotify. Spotify 1:48:10.840 --> 1:48:14.439 is actually partially owned by the labels, and the labels 1:48:14.520 --> 1:48:18.760 use that ownership stake to negotiate a kind of formalized 1:48:18.800 --> 1:48:23.759 wage theft where they allowed for a lower perse stream 1:48:23.880 --> 1:48:27.000 rate because when they get royalties for a stream, part 1:48:27.080 --> 1:48:30.920 of that money goes to their musicians. And that meant 1:48:30.920 --> 1:48:34.639 that the firm Spotify, retain more profits which it returned 1:48:34.680 --> 1:48:37.599 to it in the form of higher dividends, and dividends 1:48:37.640 --> 1:48:40.679 go just straight to their shareholders. They don't that there's 1:48:40.720 --> 1:48:43.599 no claim that musicians can make on this. And because 1:48:43.680 --> 1:48:47.520 they set the benchmark rate, it meant that everyone, irrespective 1:48:47.560 --> 1:48:48.920 of whether you were assigned to one of the big 1:48:49.000 --> 1:48:54.040 three labels, ended up getting the same per stream rate 1:48:54.280 --> 1:48:57.919 as as Universal's artists. So they were able to structure 1:48:58.000 --> 1:49:01.120 the whole market. In the meantime, in the industrial side, 1:49:01.640 --> 1:49:04.479 UH copyright laws, notably Section twelve of one of the 1:49:04.520 --> 1:49:09.120 Digital Millennium Copyright Act, which is a law past that 1:49:09.240 --> 1:49:13.000 makes it a felony to remove DRM to bypass a 1:49:13.080 --> 1:49:16.640 technical protection measure UM that has become the go to 1:49:16.960 --> 1:49:22.920 system for blocking, repair, interoperability UH and to prevent third 1:49:22.960 --> 1:49:27.679 parties from um UH from from creating services or add 1:49:27.760 --> 1:49:32.920 ons that accomplish positive ends like improved accessibility, improved security, 1:49:33.560 --> 1:49:37.080 um AD blocking and privacy and so on. They just say, well, 1:49:37.160 --> 1:49:39.840 you know, we we put a one molecule thick layer 1:49:39.880 --> 1:49:42.560 of DRM around say YouTube, and when you make a 1:49:42.640 --> 1:49:47.160 YouTube downloader for archival purposes or whatever, UM, you you 1:49:47.320 --> 1:49:51.679 just create a um A UH you bypass our technical 1:49:51.720 --> 1:49:54.760 protection measure and so you're committing a felony, and you 1:49:54.800 --> 1:49:56.840 can go to prison for five years and and pay 1:49:56.840 --> 1:50:00.080 a five dollar fine. And so you have this like 1:50:00.160 --> 1:50:05.800 relentless monotonic expansion of DRM into like automotive tractors. Medtronic 1:50:05.960 --> 1:50:09.560 uses it to block people from fixing ventilators. UM. So 1:50:09.960 --> 1:50:14.840 you know, this, this UM assault on the ability to 1:50:15.040 --> 1:50:19.639 reconfigure a technology that is ever more prevalent in our 1:50:19.760 --> 1:50:22.760 lives and that increasingly holds our lives in its in 1:50:22.880 --> 1:50:25.920 its hands right its choices determine whether we live or 1:50:26.000 --> 1:50:29.439 die has been really consequential. And I know we don't 1:50:29.479 --> 1:50:31.680 really think of it as a copyright problem. We think 1:50:31.680 --> 1:50:33.280 of it as right to repair. We think of a 1:50:33.360 --> 1:50:37.559 security auditing our accessibility. But the rule that is being 1:50:37.680 --> 1:50:41.280 used to block into operability is a copyright law. It's 1:50:41.360 --> 1:50:44.040 what printer companies used to stop you from buying third 1:50:44.080 --> 1:50:47.160 party inc um. It's what Apple uses to stop you 1:50:47.280 --> 1:50:49.560 from installing a third party app store. And you know, 1:50:49.680 --> 1:50:51.800 the absence of a third party app store is why 1:50:52.080 --> 1:50:56.799 when Apple removed all the working VPNs in China, Chinese 1:50:56.880 --> 1:50:59.320 users couldn't just switch to another app store that had 1:50:59.360 --> 1:51:02.320 working vp ends in it. And so you know that 1:51:02.600 --> 1:51:06.000 this um endgame of the copyright wars is I think 1:51:06.000 --> 1:51:11.720 a lot more dystopian than uh merely suing college kids. Uh, 1:51:12.120 --> 1:51:15.439 it's it's actually really screwed us in ways that are 1:51:15.680 --> 1:51:20.040 that are hard to fathom. Yeah, it's a fascinating example 1:51:20.120 --> 1:51:23.000 of kind of dystopic creep because, at least kind of 1:51:23.080 --> 1:51:26.200 from my more more ignorant position, when I was nineteen, 1:51:26.280 --> 1:51:28.120 I was like worried that all of these these people 1:51:28.200 --> 1:51:30.960 remixing music and movies that I liked, like we're going 1:51:31.000 --> 1:51:33.280 to get cracked down on or have their stuff pulled 1:51:34.040 --> 1:51:37.479 um And the the kind of thing that I didn't 1:51:37.520 --> 1:51:39.920 I don't think a lot of people saw coming until 1:51:39.960 --> 1:51:41.960 it hit. I certainly didn't, was what you were just 1:51:42.040 --> 1:51:44.360 talking about the fact that kind of the logic of 1:51:44.479 --> 1:51:47.920 how these these entertainment companies were looking at like an 1:51:47.960 --> 1:51:50.360 album or you know, a movie and and cutting up 1:51:50.400 --> 1:51:53.160 pieces of that they've they've applied to like a tractor, 1:51:53.520 --> 1:51:55.599 you know, and now you can't like repair your John 1:51:55.640 --> 1:51:58.040 Deer or modify your John Deer so it works better. 1:51:58.600 --> 1:52:01.439 And then you know, you get situations like we just 1:52:01.560 --> 1:52:04.160 kind of averted with the John Deere strike where there 1:52:04.280 --> 1:52:06.360 was a very real possibility that we wouldn't be able 1:52:06.360 --> 1:52:08.040 to get a large chunk of a harvest because there 1:52:08.040 --> 1:52:09.680 wouldn't be parts and you can't put your own in. 1:52:09.800 --> 1:52:12.479 And that's to think that that the thought process that 1:52:12.600 --> 1:52:16.120 led us there started with like trying to protect Metallica. 1:52:16.800 --> 1:52:19.400 In some ways, it's kind of funny. And this is 1:52:19.439 --> 1:52:22.960 why the anti monopoly critique is great because it shows 1:52:23.000 --> 1:52:26.000 you that there's cause for solidarity between John Deere tractor 1:52:26.040 --> 1:52:30.240 owners and John Deere tractor UH makers the workers who 1:52:30.280 --> 1:52:33.760 work there, because the same force that has allowed John 1:52:33.840 --> 1:52:38.040 Deere to cram down its workforce for forty years is 1:52:38.160 --> 1:52:41.559 the is the force that allows it to um uh 1:52:41.920 --> 1:52:45.960 take away the agency and economic liberties of farmers who 1:52:46.080 --> 1:52:49.280 own John Deer tractors. And it's it's the it's the 1:52:49.320 --> 1:52:52.280 political power that comes with monopoly. And so you know, 1:52:52.360 --> 1:52:55.679 if John Deer were a smaller, weaker firm, it would 1:52:55.720 --> 1:52:59.479 be less able to resist both the claims of its 1:52:59.520 --> 1:53:03.800 work force and the claims of its um uh customers. 1:53:04.720 --> 1:53:07.600 Mhm yeah, I mean that makes that makes sense, and 1:53:07.720 --> 1:53:10.400 it is like I like that idea of of because 1:53:10.520 --> 1:53:13.680 it's not just kind of solidarity between John Deere purchasers, 1:53:14.040 --> 1:53:16.799 UM and and the people who work in the factories. 1:53:16.880 --> 1:53:20.479 It's also there's kind of solidarity between a wide like 1:53:21.120 --> 1:53:26.519 anyone concerned with UM copyright. It's a much broader base 1:53:26.600 --> 1:53:28.960 of solidarity than just people who are worried about you know, 1:53:29.080 --> 1:53:32.200 what's happening uh to fiction or like what Disney is 1:53:32.240 --> 1:53:35.080 doing to like copyrights around Mickey Mouse or whatever. Like 1:53:35.200 --> 1:53:38.680 it's it. You can you can draw in concerns from 1:53:38.800 --> 1:53:40.559 right to repair to a bunch of other things, which 1:53:40.600 --> 1:53:45.280 potentially means there's there's a greater body of people available 1:53:45.320 --> 1:53:47.439 for action if you can make them see kind of 1:53:48.240 --> 1:53:50.920 um converging interests there, which is I think is an 1:53:50.960 --> 1:53:53.759 interesting idea. Well, I think you're getting something really important 1:53:53.840 --> 1:53:56.519 and this is UM. This comes from James Boyle who's 1:53:56.520 --> 1:53:59.360 a copyright scholar at Duke University and was really involved 1:53:59.439 --> 1:54:02.559 and found in creative commons and in those early copyright 1:54:02.640 --> 1:54:06.240 fights and and Jamie makes an analogy to the coining 1:54:06.280 --> 1:54:09.160 of the term ecology. He says that before the term 1:54:09.200 --> 1:54:12.040 ecology came along, you know, someone us cared about owls 1:54:12.080 --> 1:54:14.280 and someone us cared about the ozone layer, but it 1:54:14.320 --> 1:54:16.960 wasn't really clear that we were on the same side. 1:54:17.240 --> 1:54:19.360 You know, it's not clear. If you're Martian looking through 1:54:19.400 --> 1:54:21.840 a telescope, you might be hard pressed to explain why. 1:54:22.320 --> 1:54:26.160 You know, the destiny of charismatic charismatic nocturnal birds and 1:54:26.240 --> 1:54:29.519 the gaseous composition of the upper atmosphere were the same issue, 1:54:30.080 --> 1:54:32.920 right in the term ecology. Let all these people who 1:54:32.960 --> 1:54:36.600 cared about different things find a single point to rally around. 1:54:36.680 --> 1:54:39.880 It turned a thousand issues into one movement. And I 1:54:40.000 --> 1:54:42.600 think that in the in the course of resisting corporate power, 1:54:42.680 --> 1:54:45.720 which is to say, resisting monopoly, we have the potential 1:54:45.840 --> 1:54:49.480 to weld together people from very diverse fields. You know, 1:54:49.640 --> 1:54:52.360 farmers and people who make tractors. Sure, but you know 1:54:52.800 --> 1:54:56.360 if you grew up watching professional wrestling and now you're 1:54:56.440 --> 1:54:59.520 a ghas that the wrestlers that you loved are begging 1:54:59.600 --> 1:55:02.280 on go fund me for pennies to die with dignity, 1:55:02.960 --> 1:55:05.200 you know, once someone explains to the reason that that's 1:55:05.200 --> 1:55:08.600 happening is that thirty wrestling leagues became one wrestling league 1:55:08.840 --> 1:55:12.440 that was able to practice worker's classification, turn those performers 1:55:12.520 --> 1:55:15.240 into contractors, take away their health insurance, and leave them 1:55:15.320 --> 1:55:17.720 to die. Then Suddenly you're on the same side of 1:55:17.760 --> 1:55:19.640 the people who were worried about big Tech and big 1:55:19.720 --> 1:55:22.280 tractor and the people worried about the fact that there's 1:55:22.320 --> 1:55:26.800 only one manufacturer of cheerleading uniform uniforms and two manufacturers 1:55:26.840 --> 1:55:30.120 of athletic shoes, and two manufacturers of spirits and two 1:55:30.160 --> 1:55:34.120 manufacturers of beer. One manufacturer of eyewear that also owns 1:55:34.280 --> 1:55:37.720 all the eye wear stores and the eyewear ensure. You 1:55:37.800 --> 1:55:40.160 know that Duff Beer thing from the early Simpsons where 1:55:40.200 --> 1:55:48.920 there's like Duff Beer raspberry thing, Dulci, Gabana, Oliver, People's Boushan, Loam, Versaci. 1:55:49.080 --> 1:55:52.120 Every eyewear brand you've ever heard of is one company 1:55:52.440 --> 1:55:57.000 coach all of them. And they also own Sunglass Hut 1:55:57.200 --> 1:56:02.280 and uh Target Optical and Years Optical, and lens Crafters 1:56:02.480 --> 1:56:05.680 and Specsavers and every other eyewear story you've ever heard of. 1:56:06.080 --> 1:56:08.880 And they bought all the labs that make the lenses, 1:56:08.960 --> 1:56:10.680 so more than half the lenses in the world come 1:56:10.760 --> 1:56:14.920 from them. A division called and they bought Imed, which 1:56:15.040 --> 1:56:17.360 is the company that bought all the insurance companies that 1:56:17.520 --> 1:56:20.320 ensure I wear, and so they're also the company that's 1:56:20.440 --> 1:56:24.680 ensuring your glasses, your your eyes. One company and I 1:56:24.800 --> 1:56:27.000 Wear costs a thousand percent more than it did a 1:56:27.080 --> 1:56:30.800 decade ago. They stole our fucking eyes. Right, So people 1:56:30.880 --> 1:56:33.680 who care about that have common cause with people who 1:56:33.720 --> 1:56:36.440 care about wrestlers and people who care about beer and 1:56:36.640 --> 1:56:39.959 big tech and the fact that there's four shipping companies 1:56:40.320 --> 1:56:42.520 and they have no competitive pressure and so they just 1:56:42.600 --> 1:56:44.760 keep building bigger ships that gets stuck in the fucking 1:56:44.840 --> 1:56:49.560 Suez canal Right, we're all on the same side. Yeah, 1:56:49.760 --> 1:56:53.400 And I I like the idea that I like. I 1:56:53.720 --> 1:56:57.560 like hoping that that kind of inherent solidarity, if you 1:56:57.600 --> 1:57:01.080 can point it out to people, is potentially an antidote to, 1:57:01.320 --> 1:57:03.040 or at least a partial antidote to the level of 1:57:03.160 --> 1:57:06.600 the layer of politicization that's fallen down over everything um 1:57:06.760 --> 1:57:09.919 that stops people from actually considering matters but instead considering 1:57:10.000 --> 1:57:11.760 Like I don't know, is this owning the libs? Right? 1:57:12.200 --> 1:57:14.240 Like if you if they if if you can get 1:57:14.320 --> 1:57:16.680 them to see that, like, yeah, their favorite wrestler is 1:57:17.240 --> 1:57:20.360 like dying because he couldn't afford insulin, and that that 1:57:20.560 --> 1:57:23.000 that's tied to the issue of like the reason his 1:57:23.120 --> 1:57:25.760 dad can't get tractor parts this year or whatever, um 1:57:25.920 --> 1:57:28.280 and that that's tied to other issues that are maybe 1:57:28.440 --> 1:57:32.400 championed by people he would reflexively dismiss. But like, yeah, 1:57:32.400 --> 1:57:35.480 I I I find that really inspiring. It's still a 1:57:35.520 --> 1:57:40.600 significant there's a significant challenge for people who are trying 1:57:40.640 --> 1:57:43.120 to make those connections, for folks who are who are 1:57:43.200 --> 1:57:46.960 trying to like inform them of that state. I mean, yeah, 1:57:47.000 --> 1:57:49.840 that's true. And you know, like Steve Bannon will tell 1:57:49.880 --> 1:57:52.720 you that the reason to do cultural world culture culture 1:57:52.800 --> 1:57:56.600 war bullshit is because politics are down downstream from culture, 1:57:56.640 --> 1:57:58.720 and there's probably an element of truth to that. But 1:57:58.800 --> 1:58:00.760 I also think the reason that he full fine culture 1:58:00.800 --> 1:58:05.000 war bullshits so attractive is because they got nothing else. Yeah, 1:58:05.760 --> 1:58:07.800 I think we we talked about that a lot within 1:58:07.840 --> 1:58:11.360 the context of conservative for politics. I grew up very conservative, 1:58:11.400 --> 1:58:14.000 and I do remember how the tenor of things I 1:58:14.160 --> 1:58:17.560 was hearing through the Bush ears changed from advocation of 1:58:17.680 --> 1:58:21.240 policies to just all culture war, all the time, all 1:58:21.600 --> 1:58:23.760 all striking the dims all the time. And it was 1:58:23.840 --> 1:58:27.640 the kind of um it and that's not the only 1:58:27.720 --> 1:58:29.440 place that's happen you see it on the left to 1:58:29.680 --> 1:58:33.000 absolutely like it's it's endemic. Now it's it's a poison 1:58:33.120 --> 1:58:36.480 in kind of the discourse. But I think that there's 1:58:36.680 --> 1:58:38.760 a lot that needs to be I think there's a 1:58:38.800 --> 1:58:41.240 lot to be discovered still for like how to break 1:58:41.480 --> 1:58:44.800 people out of that. I'm kind of bullish when we 1:58:44.840 --> 1:58:46.640 talk about these issues, like you were bringing up with 1:58:46.720 --> 1:58:49.240 sort of the monopolization of these industries you wouldn't expect 1:58:49.240 --> 1:58:53.320 to be monopolized. I'm hopeful about the future that stuff 1:58:53.360 --> 1:58:55.440 like three D printing presents for that. We have an 1:58:55.520 --> 1:58:58.920 organization in Portland that does kind of three D printing 1:58:58.960 --> 1:59:01.720 glasses frame since stuff and is helping people with that 1:59:01.880 --> 1:59:04.800 sort of stuff. And I'm in conversations with like the 1:59:06.000 --> 1:59:10.840 Four Thieves Vinegar Collective. I think it's called UM. Yeah, 1:59:10.880 --> 1:59:12.760 some of the folks doing like trying to do working 1:59:12.800 --> 1:59:16.800 on pharmaceutical hacking making at the moment like lower cost 1:59:17.240 --> 1:59:21.040 uh kind of home scratch brewed versions of like different 1:59:21.040 --> 1:59:24.320 aids medications, and the Holy Grail is doing that with 1:59:24.520 --> 1:59:29.120 um insulin effectively UM and I think it is. And 1:59:29.240 --> 1:59:31.640 I do think one of the things that's exciting about 1:59:31.720 --> 1:59:33.760 that is because the way in which the way in 1:59:33.800 --> 1:59:36.320 which collaboration on three D printing works in the way 1:59:36.360 --> 1:59:39.040 in which actually spreading, like the ability to do stuff works. 1:59:39.400 --> 1:59:43.880 I think it synergizes nicely with the ability of people 1:59:43.920 --> 1:59:46.200 to kind of reach other folks through writing or other 1:59:46.280 --> 1:59:48.280 forms of content, because they can both spread through the 1:59:48.320 --> 1:59:50.400 same You can have a video or a story, and 1:59:50.520 --> 1:59:53.200 you can have like kind of embedded guides on how 1:59:53.240 --> 1:59:56.360 to do that. Um I I I don't know that 1:59:56.400 --> 1:59:59.080 I've I've runned into a lot of your writings on 1:59:59.360 --> 2:00:01.080 kind of the potent chell of three D printing in 2:00:01.120 --> 2:00:04.080 this space, But I'm interested, like to what do you do? 2:00:04.680 --> 2:00:06.760 Are you looking at that as kind of an area 2:00:06.840 --> 2:00:09.320 of hope or do you see that still is kind 2:00:09.360 --> 2:00:12.280 of to two niche and labor focus to really actually 2:00:12.400 --> 2:00:13.800 take off in the way that it would need to 2:00:14.240 --> 2:00:16.800 to crack some of these nuts. This is where I 2:00:16.880 --> 2:00:19.720 do my my Woody Allen, you know nothing of my 2:00:19.880 --> 2:00:23.320 work stick because I had this novel Maker Makers in 2:00:23.360 --> 2:00:29.480 two thousand and eight. It's it's why uh Bree Pettis 2:00:29.520 --> 2:00:32.800 went out and founded Maker bought uh and it's you know, 2:00:33.040 --> 2:00:37.280 credited with like kickstarting the homebrew three D printed revolution 2:00:37.320 --> 2:00:40.120 blah blah blah blah blah and um and it was 2:00:40.200 --> 2:00:43.200 a very bullish novel about three D printing. I UM, 2:00:43.680 --> 2:00:46.080 you know, the reality hasn't lived up to the hype yet. 2:00:46.360 --> 2:00:48.040 It may just be that we're in the long trough 2:00:48.160 --> 2:00:51.880 of despair, as the Gardner hype cycle model has it. Uh. 2:00:52.160 --> 2:00:55.120 But you know, I think the problem with UM three 2:00:55.200 --> 2:00:59.240 D printing was that the patents have been concentrated into 2:00:59.240 --> 2:01:02.120 the hands of two arch firms that had bought all 2:01:02.120 --> 2:01:06.480 their competitors, including Maker Bought and UM. When those patents 2:01:06.560 --> 2:01:09.640 finally expired. The big one was the laser centering of 2:01:09.880 --> 2:01:13.200 of powder. Patent expired, there just wasn't a big bang. 2:01:13.400 --> 2:01:15.760 And I think it's because the supply chain for it 2:01:16.440 --> 2:01:20.280 still had a lot of proprietary elements, and so producing 2:01:20.400 --> 2:01:24.600 the powder and producing the components that allowed for that 2:01:25.120 --> 2:01:29.360 powder printing remained a very high bar, and so we 2:01:29.520 --> 2:01:32.000 just didn't see the kind of new industry emerged that 2:01:32.120 --> 2:01:34.200 we would have hoped for. And you know, it's like 2:01:34.320 --> 2:01:37.200 seven years since those patents expired. Five years since those 2:01:37.240 --> 2:01:39.880 patent expired. Now we're seeing a few more of those 2:01:39.920 --> 2:01:42.680 powder printers. You get a lot more like UVY cured 2:01:42.720 --> 2:01:46.640 epoxy printers because those came off patent earlier, and they 2:01:46.680 --> 2:01:50.400 have a less complicated supply chain. Um, but still, I 2:01:50.440 --> 2:01:53.839 mean mostly when we talked about printers, we're talking about filament, 2:01:54.360 --> 2:01:58.040 and just filaments just not a great technology. It's been 2:01:58.160 --> 2:02:01.360 pushed in ways that you wouldn't even leave and people 2:02:01.400 --> 2:02:04.920 have figured out how to do absolutely incredible things with it. 2:02:05.480 --> 2:02:09.320 But it's not It's not something that you would make 2:02:09.360 --> 2:02:12.880 aerospace components for, you know, it's it's it's something that 2:02:12.960 --> 2:02:16.880 you make um novelty dungeons and dragons, dice out of 2:02:17.880 --> 2:02:20.320 which is an important industry to disrupt. Don't get me wrong, 2:02:20.480 --> 2:02:23.360 but I'm with you, with you. I can remember paying 2:02:23.440 --> 2:02:25.160 thirty bucks for a set of dice as a kid 2:02:25.240 --> 2:02:29.120 and thinking, somebody's gotta fix this scam. I can put 2:02:29.160 --> 2:02:31.640 you something for Christmas, Robert, thank you, Garrison. And you 2:02:31.680 --> 2:02:34.000 know now I I own a I bought a comic 2:02:34.080 --> 2:02:35.800 on a couple of years ago. I bought a tiny 2:02:35.880 --> 2:02:39.240 little D twenty made out of meteoric or I have 2:02:39.280 --> 2:02:42.440 a sky metal D twenty. Oh now that's yeah, that's 2:02:42.640 --> 2:02:46.240 that's classy. Um. I'm curious. We've got a little bit 2:02:46.280 --> 2:02:48.080 of time left and I wanted to ask in your 2:02:48.160 --> 2:02:51.839 your novel attack surface. I know it was released right October, 2:02:51.960 --> 2:02:55.960 if I'm not mistaken. UM. And obviously a lot of 2:02:56.040 --> 2:03:00.160 that deals with again these kind of like corporations that 2:03:00.200 --> 2:03:02.160 have been contractors for the D O D doing like 2:03:02.400 --> 2:03:06.280 fucked up surveillance shit in Iraq and Afghanistan bringing that 2:03:06.400 --> 2:03:09.400 technology to crack down on like US, uh, sort of 2:03:09.480 --> 2:03:12.880 dissident left wing political movements. It comes out the year 2:03:12.960 --> 2:03:17.240 that we have a nationwide kind of uprising, UM that 2:03:17.520 --> 2:03:19.920 a lot of fucked up surveillance ship that had been 2:03:20.040 --> 2:03:22.720 kind of demoed state side around it like standing Rock 2:03:22.800 --> 2:03:25.600 and whatnot, gets gets really put into its own How 2:03:25.760 --> 2:03:30.120 much of that was written before ship went down? And 2:03:30.240 --> 2:03:32.880 I and I'm assuming, like I don't know exactly how 2:03:32.920 --> 2:03:35.240 your process works, but I'm wondering, like, I assume you 2:03:35.320 --> 2:03:38.200 started the project before everything went the way it did 2:03:38.320 --> 2:03:41.160 last summer. How much did kind of what happened last 2:03:41.200 --> 2:03:45.680 summer affect the way you imagined that technology in those 2:03:45.720 --> 2:03:49.080 tactics functioning in that book. Yeah, the the timeline goes 2:03:49.120 --> 2:03:55.040 the other direction. I wrote that book before the summer uprising, UM, 2:03:55.240 --> 2:03:58.120 long long, long long before that, And I wrote it 2:03:58.160 --> 2:04:01.480 about things like UM, the surveillance technology we saw in 2:04:01.520 --> 2:04:05.960 Belarus and chev and also at Occupy and Standing Rock 2:04:07.280 --> 2:04:12.800 and at other Black Lives Matter demonstrations and uprisings in Americans. Yeah, 2:04:13.320 --> 2:04:18.640 and if you you know also the monotonic expansion of 2:04:18.800 --> 2:04:22.000 surveillance leagues right where you know, first we learned about 2:04:22.120 --> 2:04:25.200 MC catchers, and then we learned about dirt boxes, which 2:04:25.200 --> 2:04:28.040 are MC catchers on airplanes, and you know, like we 2:04:28.200 --> 2:04:31.080 just all of that stuff leaked like crazy because you know, 2:04:31.520 --> 2:04:36.800 these surveillance giants are are not good at what they do, right, 2:04:37.000 --> 2:04:40.240 which isn't a reason we should be hopeful. A company 2:04:40.320 --> 2:04:43.680 that's bad at what it does is in some ways 2:04:43.720 --> 2:04:46.760 even worse because one of the ways that they're incompetence 2:04:46.800 --> 2:04:49.760 expresses itself is that they often gather a bunch of 2:04:49.880 --> 2:04:54.400 data on innocent people and then leak it, right, not maliciously, 2:04:54.600 --> 2:04:58.840 just through incompetence. Um. And so you know, the the 2:05:00.040 --> 2:05:02.560 this expansion of surveillance has like been on my mind 2:05:02.760 --> 2:05:04.880 for a long time, and I've been writing about it, 2:05:05.240 --> 2:05:07.480 well at least since Little Brother, Right, So two thousand 2:05:07.520 --> 2:05:10.080 and six, I wrote that novel, and I've had my 2:05:10.200 --> 2:05:12.640 finger in that. Yeah, So I've had my finger in 2:05:12.680 --> 2:05:15.720 that for all that time and and working with the 2:05:15.880 --> 2:05:19.520 f F, it's impossible to miss sure. Was there a 2:05:19.560 --> 2:05:22.280 degree to which, um, I don't know, I guess we're 2:05:22.320 --> 2:05:24.400 you surprised by anything that happened last time? Or did 2:05:24.440 --> 2:05:27.880 it just kind of comprehensively feel like these are everything 2:05:27.960 --> 2:05:30.320 slotting into place that I knew was heading in this direction? 2:05:30.320 --> 2:05:32.760 Because yeah, I mean, you're right, I did like there 2:05:32.880 --> 2:05:37.600 was like everything was kind of presaged um years before. 2:05:37.760 --> 2:05:41.040 I'm yeah, I I'm wondering if if there was anything 2:05:41.120 --> 2:05:43.840 that kind of surprised you, um, or was it was 2:05:43.920 --> 2:05:47.280 it all just sort of what you've been braced for. Yeah, 2:05:47.320 --> 2:05:50.600 I don't feel like there were any kind of surveillance surprises. 2:05:51.000 --> 2:05:55.840 I mean the reverse the use of reverse warrants. I 2:05:55.920 --> 2:05:59.040 think we all kind of assumed was going on. There 2:05:59.080 --> 2:06:02.160 had been hints of it in Google's warrant canarias beforehand. 2:06:02.680 --> 2:06:06.000 But you know those geofense warrants, which again, if you're 2:06:06.040 --> 2:06:08.400 like sitting there going oh, geofense warrants are awesome because 2:06:08.440 --> 2:06:11.880 they're catching the one six rioters, Like, dude, you are 2:06:11.920 --> 2:06:15.920 going to be so disappointed, Holy sh it, that's not 2:06:16.000 --> 2:06:19.680 where they're going to keep using this yeah. UM, so, 2:06:19.880 --> 2:06:22.320 you know, learning more about those reverse warrants I think 2:06:22.480 --> 2:06:26.120 was was interesting. UM, but I don't feel like, I 2:06:26.280 --> 2:06:28.000 don't well off the top of my head, I can't 2:06:28.040 --> 2:06:31.080 say that there was any new technical stuff that emerged, 2:06:31.120 --> 2:06:34.480 you know. I I um kickstarted the audiobook for Attack 2:06:34.600 --> 2:06:38.480 Surface uh, and I offered as like the top tier 2:06:38.560 --> 2:06:41.400 you could commission short stories in the Little Brother universe, 2:06:42.000 --> 2:06:43.920 and there were three of those and I just finished 2:06:43.960 --> 2:06:46.919 the first of them, and it's about um future pipeline 2:06:46.960 --> 2:06:50.960 protests and uh. You know, I spent a lot of 2:06:51.040 --> 2:06:54.320 time in my research looking at the surveillance that was 2:06:54.400 --> 2:06:56.760 done on the pipeline protests, and a lot of it 2:06:56.840 --> 2:07:01.360 was provocateurs and undercovers who were just terrible at jobs, right, 2:07:01.440 --> 2:07:05.600 like the intercepts, long publication of of uh, you know, 2:07:05.720 --> 2:07:08.800 long documents about how those operators worked. They just like 2:07:08.920 --> 2:07:12.200 showed up in military haircuts and combat boots. And then 2:07:12.240 --> 2:07:14.880 we're like, Hey, I'm from Portland and I'm here because 2:07:14.920 --> 2:07:17.560 we're gonna funk up some bad guys. Let's go do it. 2:07:17.720 --> 2:07:20.960 Let's go do violence and save Indian country. And like 2:07:21.080 --> 2:07:23.919 everyone's like you, like, does anyone want to buy drugs? 2:07:24.360 --> 2:07:29.400 And and the actual protesters were like you're a provocateur, 2:07:30.040 --> 2:07:32.760 like go away, you know, like they could tell. I mean, 2:07:32.880 --> 2:07:34.680 I guess you know, there are a lot more effective 2:07:34.680 --> 2:07:37.280 in the UK in infiltrating the climate movement. You know, 2:07:37.360 --> 2:07:41.680 they impregnated several protesters, so you know, and had long 2:07:41.840 --> 2:07:44.400 term relationships with them and raised kids with them. So 2:07:45.040 --> 2:07:48.240 there is no but here stories yeah here, it was 2:07:48.360 --> 2:07:52.720 not that we did just didn't see that incredible efficacy. Yeah, 2:07:52.800 --> 2:07:55.520 And I do think that that's I think kind of 2:07:55.600 --> 2:07:57.400 the message I took out of it because I I 2:07:57.600 --> 2:08:00.280 was I started reporting on like dirt boxes back during 2:08:00.360 --> 2:08:02.920 Standing Rock, just having them, like it explained to me 2:08:03.000 --> 2:08:04.920 by people who were on the ground when I showed 2:08:05.000 --> 2:08:07.920 up that like, yeah, there's this your like phones don't 2:08:07.960 --> 2:08:09.640 work the same out here, and like we're trying to 2:08:09.680 --> 2:08:11.760 figure out what's going on, but like everything is is 2:08:11.920 --> 2:08:13.640 and it's not just that we're out in the sticks 2:08:13.760 --> 2:08:16.560 or anything. And I think the only surprise, the big 2:08:16.600 --> 2:08:19.240 surprise for me last year was how I think how 2:08:19.440 --> 2:08:23.760 little the technology accomplished for them and how much it 2:08:23.880 --> 2:08:25.840 just it just wound up back down to violence. It 2:08:25.920 --> 2:08:28.080 was like that was kind of the for all of 2:08:28.200 --> 2:08:30.440 the toys they had. The toys that actually made the 2:08:30.480 --> 2:08:33.440 most difference was gassing and beating people and violence and 2:08:33.600 --> 2:08:37.240 like old fashioned informants that was that was the stuff, 2:08:37.520 --> 2:08:40.480 and just having a dude there. Yeah, they were really 2:08:40.560 --> 2:08:43.040 relied on. And the fact that you that that you, Corey, 2:08:43.320 --> 2:08:46.040 weren't super surprised, but anything last year, I think kind 2:08:46.080 --> 2:08:48.760 of just more shows kind of the strength of your 2:08:48.840 --> 2:08:51.440 work in terms of how you're very good at seeing 2:08:51.560 --> 2:08:54.800 the trends that are already happening but taking them to 2:08:54.880 --> 2:08:58.440 their next logical place. Um. And it's a really great 2:08:59.000 --> 2:09:01.680 way to kind of get a sense of what is something, 2:09:02.560 --> 2:09:05.160 what what will something maybe look like in the next 2:09:05.640 --> 2:09:07.680 decade or so, because it's it's all based on already 2:09:07.680 --> 2:09:10.880 existing stuff, just in different kind of original ways. So 2:09:10.920 --> 2:09:13.120 that's why I think it's it's so useful to look 2:09:13.160 --> 2:09:16.760 at your books as as an activist, specifically around like 2:09:17.240 --> 2:09:20.760 surveillance and stuff, because it's it's just really it's it's 2:09:20.800 --> 2:09:23.440 really good for kind of keeping keeping an eye on 2:09:24.160 --> 2:09:26.960 keep my head, yeah, and and keeping an eye on 2:09:27.040 --> 2:09:29.320 what's keeping an eye on you, um, and all that 2:09:29.400 --> 2:09:32.160 kind of stuff. This was a really lovely conversation was 2:09:32.200 --> 2:09:35.040 a lovely last thing to do in my home office 2:09:35.120 --> 2:09:38.640 in because I leave tomorrow and won't be back until 2:09:38.680 --> 2:09:41.200 the next year, and then I'm actually gonna be offline 2:09:41.240 --> 2:09:43.880 for a month after a joint replacement. So it was 2:09:44.200 --> 2:09:45.800 it was really lovely to meet you all on to 2:09:45.920 --> 2:09:48.200 chat with you. Thanks so much for chatting with us today. 2:09:48.200 --> 2:10:04.760 Glory my pleasure. You know what, I think it's time 2:10:04.840 --> 2:10:08.800 to do a podcast. All right, I did it, Sophie. 2:10:11.800 --> 2:10:14.640 This is it could happen here a podcast that's begun. 2:10:14.960 --> 2:10:18.160 We talk about how things are falling apart, and occasionally, 2:10:18.560 --> 2:10:21.560 when we're feeling good, how to maybe how to maybe 2:10:21.800 --> 2:10:24.440 put them back together a little bit. But today we're 2:10:24.480 --> 2:10:30.040 more talking about the growing consensus that things in the 2:10:30.240 --> 2:10:35.080 US culture wars are heating up to an unacceptable level 2:10:35.200 --> 2:10:37.480 and and maybe people are going to start doing some 2:10:38.520 --> 2:10:41.960 non culture type wars here in the near future, like 2:10:42.040 --> 2:10:44.400 a civil type war here in the near future. Those 2:10:44.440 --> 2:10:46.520 of you who know me, which why would you be 2:10:46.560 --> 2:10:48.560 listening to this podcast if you If you don't know, 2:10:49.280 --> 2:10:53.040 like the earlier seasons of this exact show, uh know 2:10:53.200 --> 2:10:55.320 that I talk a lot about the potential of a 2:10:55.400 --> 2:10:58.280 mass civil conflict in the United States. I've been kind 2:10:58.280 --> 2:11:00.240 of trying to warn about it for a while, and 2:11:00.280 --> 2:11:02.440 today we're gonna do an episode about some of the 2:11:03.480 --> 2:11:07.839 more mainstream sources that have started to kind of accept 2:11:07.880 --> 2:11:12.080 this as a possibility, um and get concerned about it. Garrison, 2:11:12.160 --> 2:11:15.960 You've presented us with three articles, one from NBC News, 2:11:16.240 --> 2:11:20.520 one from The Independent, and one from the Brookings Institute, 2:11:21.280 --> 2:11:25.760 all kind of fiddling around this idea that certain unnamed 2:11:25.880 --> 2:11:29.880 journalists have spent years discussing. So, yeah, we're gonna we're 2:11:29.880 --> 2:11:34.800 gonna get into it. Garrison. Yeah, so it is the past. 2:11:34.880 --> 2:11:37.520 The past few months we have well, I've I've been 2:11:37.640 --> 2:11:41.680 watching to see how how this idea has been slowly 2:11:41.760 --> 2:11:44.360 kind of getting in popularity. Of course, there was like 2:11:44.400 --> 2:11:46.720 a spike in this around like January six, but then 2:11:46.760 --> 2:11:49.160 stuff kind of settled down, and now we're kind of 2:11:49.480 --> 2:11:52.280 seeing it come back up against We had these these 2:11:52.320 --> 2:11:55.320 three pieces all published within like a month of each other, um, 2:11:56.240 --> 2:11:58.520 all kind of on this topic and specifically, like the 2:11:58.600 --> 2:12:02.680 pieces themselves are definitely going coming at this from a 2:12:02.760 --> 2:12:06.320 more like liberal perspective, But the thing that made them 2:12:06.360 --> 2:12:08.640 interesting is that they did have a decent number of 2:12:08.760 --> 2:12:12.200 like of of polls and uh and and surveys in 2:12:12.280 --> 2:12:15.080 them based on like what who who, what types of 2:12:15.160 --> 2:12:18.120 people think are like are thinking about this and think 2:12:18.160 --> 2:12:21.640 it's more more of a possibility. One survey published on 2:12:22.040 --> 2:12:27.720 November one, they've said eighteen percent of Americans believe that 2:12:28.240 --> 2:12:31.800 quote unquote patriots might have to resort to violence to 2:12:31.960 --> 2:12:35.480 quote save the country. Um so. And then that included 2:12:35.520 --> 2:12:39.400 a thirty percent of Republicans, um so, but eighteen percent 2:12:39.480 --> 2:12:43.000 of all of of of of Americans in general Republicans. Yeah, 2:12:43.080 --> 2:12:46.839 So using that very specifically turn of phrase is definitely 2:12:47.560 --> 2:12:50.320 uh notable. And then another pole from arlier in the 2:12:50.400 --> 2:12:54.160 year found that forty six percent of people thought the 2:12:54.240 --> 2:12:59.120 country was somewhat or very likely to have another type 2:12:59.200 --> 2:13:02.440 of civil war. And that's the plurality of the people 2:13:02.520 --> 2:13:05.960 pulled in that because only like said unlikely, So the 2:13:06.040 --> 2:13:08.800 majority of people are not the majority of people pulled, 2:13:08.920 --> 2:13:13.080 but like the most common leaned on, yes it is, 2:13:13.400 --> 2:13:15.920 I think maybe we're going to have us a war, yeah, 2:13:16.000 --> 2:13:19.080 which is not great. The one that uh NBC published 2:13:19.400 --> 2:13:21.720 included in their article had but like thirty three percent 2:13:21.800 --> 2:13:24.360 of people saying no, it's it's probably not gonna happen 2:13:25.520 --> 2:13:28.080 kind of on the maybe and and and and forty seven, 2:13:28.200 --> 2:13:31.440 leaning on yeah, this maybe this is this is probably 2:13:31.480 --> 2:13:35.160 gonna happen at some point soon. Yep. I mean a 2:13:35.240 --> 2:13:37.280 lot of a lot, a lot of what these articles 2:13:37.320 --> 2:13:39.560 are talking about is just like kind of the increased 2:13:40.760 --> 2:13:44.960 increased threats against like elected officials and then increased almost 2:13:45.040 --> 2:13:49.480 like militancy or performative militancy of elected officials types of 2:13:49.600 --> 2:13:52.840 like like you know, like a performatively bringing your gun 2:13:52.960 --> 2:13:55.240 into Congress and that type of thing. And it lays 2:13:55.280 --> 2:13:56.960 out like a list of a list of like of 2:13:57.200 --> 2:14:01.480 of of threats or stuff enacted against governors, congressmen, all 2:14:01.560 --> 2:14:04.440 that kind of stuff in in the past, in the 2:14:04.520 --> 2:14:08.200 past like a year year mainly. Yeah. One of the 2:14:08.280 --> 2:14:11.720 things I really disagree about the Brookings because Brookings is 2:14:11.760 --> 2:14:14.240 the one who kind of is analyzing that that big 2:14:14.360 --> 2:14:16.760 poll and talking about it. Has a list of reasons 2:14:16.840 --> 2:14:19.440 why we might have a civil war and a list 2:14:19.480 --> 2:14:22.080 of reasons why it's unlikely. And one of the reasons 2:14:22.120 --> 2:14:24.880 why it's unlikely is quote, most of the organizations talking 2:14:24.880 --> 2:14:28.760 about civil war or private not public entities, um. And 2:14:28.880 --> 2:14:31.440 note that when Southern states seceded in eighteen sixty they 2:14:31.520 --> 2:14:35.840 had police forces, military organizations, and state sponsored militias. The 2:14:36.040 --> 2:14:42.560 rights of that now, Yeah, Like there's a ton of 2:14:43.000 --> 2:14:47.800 signal posting from guys like Jim Jordan's uh Hawthorne, um, 2:14:48.160 --> 2:14:54.240 Gates Bobert um, a ton of signal posting of GOSAR, 2:14:54.880 --> 2:14:59.600 from elected Republican leaders, from governors, from state level elected officials, um. 2:14:59.680 --> 2:15:02.680 And like regular street cops. Yeah, and like regular street 2:15:02.720 --> 2:15:06.240 cops that are like civil war adjacent, um, if not 2:15:06.520 --> 2:15:09.800 directly advocating for internet scene violence. So I think that 2:15:09.920 --> 2:15:13.760 that I don't think Brookings, I don't think they're analysis 2:15:13.800 --> 2:15:18.200 is spot on with this. And I think there's just 2:15:18.240 --> 2:15:21.920 one other thing that's interesting about that, which is I 2:15:22.000 --> 2:15:25.880 think it was one of those are these our sps 2:15:26.000 --> 2:15:28.640 arguing that it was like, well, the Pentagon's not particularly 2:15:28.720 --> 2:15:31.280 civil like, well, the Pentagon doesn't want civil war, They're 2:15:31.280 --> 2:15:32.720 not gonna step into it. But but I think it 2:15:32.840 --> 2:15:35.120 is also important to note that, like, like if you 2:15:35.120 --> 2:15:38.320 remember what happened last summer, there's a lot of FEDS 2:15:38.600 --> 2:15:41.760 who are just like, you know, like when like yeah, 2:15:41.880 --> 2:15:44.400 so so you know, the the army kind of doesn't 2:15:44.440 --> 2:15:47.440 want Trump to like send the army against protesters. But 2:15:47.560 --> 2:15:52.600 like you know, like bor Tak for example, like was 2:15:53.120 --> 2:15:57.560 just like absolutely hyped up to just like absolutely just 2:15:58.720 --> 2:16:01.400 go disappear a bunch of peopowl and they were very 2:16:01.440 --> 2:16:03.520 excited about that part. Yeah, Yeah, they love they love 2:16:03.600 --> 2:16:07.000 this stuff, and it's like, yeah, the notion that it's 2:16:07.080 --> 2:16:10.800 less likely because it doesn't have like formal police backing 2:16:10.920 --> 2:16:13.280 is really silly because if you spend any time monitoring 2:16:13.400 --> 2:16:15.800 these type of militia groups, you know that a good 2:16:15.840 --> 2:16:17.720 portion of them are also members of some type of 2:16:17.760 --> 2:16:22.640 law enforcement or have like family connections to There have 2:16:22.800 --> 2:16:25.920 been a bunch of cases of weapons being stolen stolen 2:16:26.000 --> 2:16:29.920 from forts um, particularly in like the West coast right now, Like, yeah, 2:16:29.960 --> 2:16:32.800 there's a ton of connections to the and a ton 2:16:32.840 --> 2:16:34.840 of like members in common. It's like at the Capital 2:16:34.920 --> 2:16:38.959 riot there were like thirty something active duty police officers involved. UM. 2:16:40.040 --> 2:16:42.840 To say that there's not direct connections with law enforcement 2:16:43.040 --> 2:16:47.680 is nonsense. And it's true that like our military leadership 2:16:48.600 --> 2:16:51.800 remains pretty much a political and very like committed to 2:16:51.920 --> 2:16:54.320 being a political in the sense that like in the 2:16:54.640 --> 2:16:58.280 within the like US partisan context, right, like they don't 2:16:58.360 --> 2:17:01.519 come in to prop up the Democrats of the Republicans, 2:17:01.560 --> 2:17:05.480 And I don't think that's immediately likely. But police forces 2:17:05.520 --> 2:17:08.520 in the United States are extremely politicized and have more 2:17:08.600 --> 2:17:13.720 than enough power to carry out a counterinsurgency campaign nationwide. 2:17:13.760 --> 2:17:15.760 And as long as the US military didn't step in, 2:17:15.959 --> 2:17:18.840 and why would they, like the cops are willing and 2:17:18.959 --> 2:17:23.280 able to do the civil warring for the government. Why 2:17:23.320 --> 2:17:26.280 do you think they have all those tanks? You? So? Yeah, 2:17:26.360 --> 2:17:28.240 like there is there is a lot of backing um, 2:17:28.800 --> 2:17:31.720 at least performatively among certain types of like writing politicians 2:17:31.760 --> 2:17:33.680 and of course police. But I think a lot of 2:17:33.720 --> 2:17:35.640 what the politicians are trying to do is more like 2:17:36.680 --> 2:17:41.440 encourage regular folks or people in like civilian militias to 2:17:41.600 --> 2:17:46.080 just start doing violence against other elected leaders. That seems 2:17:46.080 --> 2:17:49.000 to be like like like Bobart and that, and those 2:17:49.040 --> 2:17:52.280 types aren't. They're not like telling police to go do this. 2:17:52.720 --> 2:17:56.000 They're speaking to like regular people. UM. And I think 2:17:56.360 --> 2:17:59.400 one one one decent point the actually the nbcp's actually 2:17:59.440 --> 2:18:00.760 puts out, it's it's all of this kind of like 2:18:00.879 --> 2:18:05.360 divisive um and and more violent of rhetoric and behavior 2:18:05.480 --> 2:18:08.800 displayed by and towards some of our like officials. Does 2:18:08.840 --> 2:18:12.280 not necessarily mean another like civil war in terms of 2:18:12.360 --> 2:18:16.000 like a military conduct contest between states. Um, it just 2:18:16.120 --> 2:18:18.080 does not mean that it's inevitable or even probable or 2:18:18.120 --> 2:18:21.200 even like probable. A more likely scenario is a turbulent 2:18:21.320 --> 2:18:26.360 era of civil disturbances, armed confrontations, standoffs, threats, assassination attempts, 2:18:26.520 --> 2:18:30.000 and other acts of political violence. In other words, one 2:18:30.080 --> 2:18:32.720 that's a lot like the last two years of American history, 2:18:32.920 --> 2:18:35.480 which I feel like, yeah, in terms of in terms 2:18:35.520 --> 2:18:37.640 of the likelihood of there being like a more formally 2:18:37.720 --> 2:18:42.959 declared kind of conflict versus just versus just like increasingly 2:18:43.879 --> 2:18:50.800 increasingly normalizing extreme violence against uh you know, quote unquote 2:18:50.840 --> 2:18:54.440 fellow countrymen. I think is is ah, yeah, like that 2:18:54.560 --> 2:18:56.480 there's we are going to be more likely to be 2:18:56.560 --> 2:18:59.280 just moving in that direction slowly, and at the point 2:18:59.360 --> 2:19:02.920 when there is frequent enough exchange of the fire, that's 2:19:02.959 --> 2:19:05.000 when we say, yeah, we're basically in a civil war. 2:19:05.040 --> 2:19:07.800 We're just not calling it that, um, which is you know, 2:19:07.959 --> 2:19:10.440 that's the points that you, Robert have made a lot 2:19:10.560 --> 2:19:14.959 in the in the past. Yeah, I mean, and there's 2:19:15.040 --> 2:19:18.280 I I'm I think a lot of this is just 2:19:18.440 --> 2:19:21.320 a failure of kind of imagination and ability to accept 2:19:21.720 --> 2:19:24.440 from a group like Brookings, who I know has paid 2:19:24.560 --> 2:19:27.560 some attention to the Syrian Civil War, that like civil 2:19:27.640 --> 2:19:31.160 conflicts in the United States or in the in the 2:19:31.520 --> 2:19:35.520 twenty one century often don't like there's no clear regional split. 2:19:35.600 --> 2:19:37.080 Like you look at a lot of what was happening 2:19:37.120 --> 2:19:40.200 in Syria. You had cities divided up by neighborhoods between 2:19:40.280 --> 2:19:44.160 like who who was in charge? Um, you know that 2:19:44.440 --> 2:19:47.160 that's very much what we see here. And you do 2:19:47.240 --> 2:19:50.360 see like clear regional split between urban and rural divides. 2:19:50.480 --> 2:19:53.320 And it's not like they say, within specific states, but 2:19:53.480 --> 2:19:56.920 like I would say, it's very specific and limited states 2:19:56.959 --> 2:20:00.640 that don't have huge urban rural divides. Um, Like, that's 2:20:00.760 --> 2:20:03.800 that is the norm everywhere in this country that I've been. 2:20:04.600 --> 2:20:07.680 Maybe it's different in fucking Vermont or New Hampshire, but 2:20:07.720 --> 2:20:12.080 I don't trust those places. Um yeah, And I guess 2:20:13.320 --> 2:20:18.680 I think they're overly optimistic based on kind of a 2:20:18.720 --> 2:20:22.480 fundamental misunderstanding of how these sorts of conflicts occur. Um 2:20:23.400 --> 2:20:26.200 that said, I don't know, Like it's it's one of 2:20:26.280 --> 2:20:29.280 those things I think the number one the number one 2:20:29.360 --> 2:20:31.480 thing you should be looking at in terms of whether 2:20:31.600 --> 2:20:35.520 or not a civil war is likely is the number 2:20:35.600 --> 2:20:38.600 of people who respond in polls with things like, yes, 2:20:38.680 --> 2:20:41.200 I think we need to use violence to restore the 2:20:41.320 --> 2:20:45.920 nation or whatever. UM that it's not just enough, like 2:20:46.080 --> 2:20:48.600 I I it's not just enough to think that a 2:20:48.720 --> 2:20:50.880 civil war is likely, because a lot of that's just 2:20:51.000 --> 2:20:53.480 based on people who don't want one, but are paying 2:20:53.520 --> 2:20:56.200 attention to the same media as everybody else and are 2:20:56.240 --> 2:20:58.240 watching the same stuff we're watching, and they're like, well, 2:20:58.280 --> 2:21:01.800 this seems sketchy. I think think the main indicator is 2:21:02.600 --> 2:21:06.080 the number of people who respond, yeah, I think it 2:21:06.120 --> 2:21:08.600 would be awesome to use violence as a like in 2:21:08.760 --> 2:21:12.640 order to make America more like what I wanted to be. UM. 2:21:14.040 --> 2:21:16.800 And again that doesn't mean we'll we'll creep over the point. 2:21:16.879 --> 2:21:19.960 There's a number of interesting things that have happened UM 2:21:20.480 --> 2:21:23.560 on kind of the we're headed towards the civil war side. 2:21:23.720 --> 2:21:26.120 The number one thing that I've seen recently is the 2:21:26.240 --> 2:21:30.600 use of paramilitary organizations UM to kind of choke uh 2:21:30.959 --> 2:21:35.480 local civil institutions UM like school boards. I I see 2:21:35.520 --> 2:21:38.520 that as very concerning and as kind of prelude to 2:21:38.680 --> 2:21:42.880 the sort of armed mobilizations that you would see unlocalized 2:21:42.920 --> 2:21:46.000 areas in any kind of civil conflict. It's it's the 2:21:46.600 --> 2:21:49.160 precursors to death squads. So that's the that's the thing 2:21:49.240 --> 2:21:53.240 that I see on the ground that worries me most. Um. 2:21:53.560 --> 2:21:57.240 In terms of the thing that I'm I'm less certain 2:21:57.280 --> 2:21:59.440 about honestly, Like one of the things they note in 2:21:59.560 --> 2:22:01.880 here in Brookings article that like the sheer number of 2:22:01.959 --> 2:22:04.040 guns in the United States is a reason why we 2:22:04.120 --> 2:22:06.760 might have a civil war, And I agree with that entirely. 2:22:06.840 --> 2:22:10.240 When you have four million weapons in private hands, it 2:22:10.360 --> 2:22:12.600 increases the odds that they'll be used in some sort 2:22:12.600 --> 2:22:18.080 of scale. UM. We've also seen historic numbers of non 2:22:18.160 --> 2:22:21.720 white people of of of like folks who are from 2:22:21.760 --> 2:22:26.440 marginalized communities, UM, not just buying up weapons that unprecedented rates, 2:22:26.480 --> 2:22:30.080 but organizing with them. And I'm not really sure how 2:22:30.200 --> 2:22:32.920 to think of that. There's certainly a way it could 2:22:32.920 --> 2:22:36.200 certainly be a very negative development, but it could also be. 2:22:36.920 --> 2:22:38.920 I think a big part of what I've seen from 2:22:38.959 --> 2:22:43.480 the right lately is the sense of impunity, UM. And 2:22:43.640 --> 2:22:48.280 I think the feeling of being matched uh in arms 2:22:48.879 --> 2:22:52.280 is an end to impunity potentially. UM. Then the big 2:22:52.360 --> 2:22:54.360 question is, like, well, what about the police, and like, well, 2:22:54.400 --> 2:22:56.320 if the police side with the riot against you know, 2:22:56.840 --> 2:22:58.880 there's there's still a number of questions there and we 2:22:58.920 --> 2:23:02.640 don't have any clean answers. But um, I don't know that. 2:23:02.760 --> 2:23:06.000 I I think that on the whole, I'm more worried 2:23:06.280 --> 2:23:08.560 than I was two years ago when I wrote it 2:23:08.640 --> 2:23:12.240 could happen here. Um, but it's not clean. And I 2:23:12.320 --> 2:23:15.760 think in some to some extent, I'm I'm a little 2:23:15.840 --> 2:23:18.560 more worried about something like the years of lead in 2:23:18.720 --> 2:23:22.560 Italy than I am about Syria right now, if that 2:23:22.720 --> 2:23:25.920 makes sense, I will say one thing about the years 2:23:25.959 --> 2:23:28.080 of lead, which because a lot of people talk about 2:23:28.080 --> 2:23:29.480 the years of less, so that the years a letter 2:23:29.800 --> 2:23:33.240 this kind of like a roughly ten year period in 2:23:33.320 --> 2:23:40.160 Italy of I don't know, mass terrorismating political violence with 2:23:40.720 --> 2:23:43.120 effigant body counts in a way that stood out from 2:23:43.160 --> 2:23:45.160 the years around it. Yeah, And I mean, you know, 2:23:45.800 --> 2:23:47.480 the years of lead haus And there's a litt also, 2:23:47.520 --> 2:23:49.480 there's there's a bunch of intelligence and she's involved. There's 2:23:49.480 --> 2:23:52.560 a lot of foreign kind of false false bombings, like 2:23:52.680 --> 2:23:54.600 hundred hundreds of people are being killed in bombings, and 2:23:54.760 --> 2:24:00.800 I think there there's one absolutely crucial difference between now 2:24:01.080 --> 2:24:02.960 in the years of let I mean, well, okay, so 2:24:03.280 --> 2:24:06.440 partially it's that unlike Italy, we don't have seventeen thousand 2:24:06.480 --> 2:24:08.760 intelligence agency is operating in the US and like trying 2:24:08.800 --> 2:24:11.200 to kidnap and kill the foreign prime minister. But the 2:24:11.440 --> 2:24:16.040 the other thing that's very important is that unlike unlike 2:24:16.040 --> 2:24:19.600 the Italian left, and you know, really unlike the whole 2:24:19.600 --> 2:24:22.480 global left of the seventies and eighties, there is no 2:24:23.040 --> 2:24:27.920 American like left wing like left wing I guess you 2:24:27.959 --> 2:24:29.920 could call like, there's there's no left wing terrorist tradition, 2:24:30.040 --> 2:24:32.320 right like the like the left doesn't do suicide bombings, 2:24:32.360 --> 2:24:35.800 the left doesn't kidnap people like like the modern American 2:24:35.879 --> 2:24:38.320 left doesn't do that, and that a big part of 2:24:38.600 --> 2:24:40.320 what was happening from the years of lad was that, 2:24:41.000 --> 2:24:42.960 you know, sometimes the left was doing this. A lot 2:24:43.040 --> 2:24:45.000 of times it was the state pretending to be the 2:24:45.080 --> 2:24:49.600 left carrying out bombings. And that isn't really something that 2:24:49.800 --> 2:24:53.320 is happening right now because there's just like the like, 2:24:53.440 --> 2:24:58.760 the the left is not in a place where everyone 2:24:58.920 --> 2:25:01.160 is going, we need to do armed durban guerrilla movements 2:25:02.080 --> 2:25:04.039 and yeah, so and then that that makes it harder 2:25:04.080 --> 2:25:07.480 to sort of pin things like pin actual urban guerrilla 2:25:07.520 --> 2:25:09.640 movement stuff on the left because there's just none of that. 2:25:10.120 --> 2:25:13.480 But I don't think and I agree years of Left 2:25:13.560 --> 2:25:17.320 is kind of like a broad Strokes comparison, because what 2:25:17.440 --> 2:25:20.360 I see is more likely is what we're what we're 2:25:20.360 --> 2:25:23.040 already witnessing on the ground with these right wing militant 2:25:23.080 --> 2:25:25.840 groups increases, and they moved to the point of kidnapping 2:25:26.080 --> 2:25:29.320 and executing and potentially in concert with law enforcement, like 2:25:30.000 --> 2:25:33.600 doing stuff like in states that have issued harsh laws, 2:25:33.800 --> 2:25:36.240 you know, banning certain books you have in a town, 2:25:36.520 --> 2:25:39.600 local law enforcement and militias like go after and grab 2:25:39.720 --> 2:25:43.760 individual leftists and either kill or imprison them, and conflicts 2:25:43.840 --> 2:25:46.880 over that, and you have the left increasingly organized an 2:25:47.080 --> 2:25:50.880 arm um as a defense against that, and then a 2:25:50.959 --> 2:25:53.920 number of armed conflicts, you know, as a result of that, 2:25:53.959 --> 2:25:57.240 which maybe then proceed to bombings and stuff that that's terrorism, 2:25:57.360 --> 2:26:01.200 or proceed to just more kind of skirmishes that the 2:26:01.400 --> 2:26:05.640 FEDS have a minimal response to, and local or state 2:26:05.720 --> 2:26:09.240 law enforcement kind of tacitly allows um like that. That's 2:26:09.640 --> 2:26:12.840 that's kind of obviously that's not a direct comparison to 2:26:12.920 --> 2:26:15.279 what happened in Italy, but of course we're a different country. 2:26:15.320 --> 2:26:18.080 But that's kind of that's kind of the kind of 2:26:18.120 --> 2:26:21.440 brush fire conflict I could see cropping up in the 2:26:21.600 --> 2:26:25.520 very near future in this country. You know what else 2:26:27.760 --> 2:26:33.440 will start a series of armed gun fights between left 2:26:33.480 --> 2:26:42.240 and right in American towns. The products and services they're 2:26:42.320 --> 2:26:44.879 they're working on it every day, the products and services 2:26:44.920 --> 2:26:48.600 that support this podcast urged violence on the streets of 2:26:48.680 --> 2:26:53.880 the United States. That's behind the bastards. Guarantee, Sophie, We're 2:26:53.920 --> 2:26:57.040 not doing behind the bastards? What what show are we? 2:26:57.320 --> 2:27:03.960 Who are we? Any? Here's ads? All right? Oh my gosh, 2:27:05.120 --> 2:27:07.920 Uh we're back. Yeah, what a great ad. I really 2:27:08.000 --> 2:27:15.280 nailed that transition. Um, just absolutely. So. The next thing 2:27:15.360 --> 2:27:18.480 that I want to talk about, um, something that I 2:27:18.640 --> 2:27:23.080 think has some some backing behind it and something that 2:27:23.160 --> 2:27:25.880 I think is kind of more silly, is that one 2:27:25.920 --> 2:27:29.240 of one of the reasons that this uh NBC piece 2:27:29.360 --> 2:27:36.200 by what's his name, uh, Brian Brian Michael Jenkins is 2:27:36.520 --> 2:27:40.240 uh he says, one of one of the reasons that 2:27:40.360 --> 2:27:43.960 we're kind of getting more okay with you know, uh, 2:27:44.480 --> 2:27:49.960 killing or hurting our neighbors essentially is um quote, Americans 2:27:50.040 --> 2:27:53.360 do fewer things together. Church attendance is declining. Membership and 2:27:53.440 --> 2:27:56.720 civic organizations and lodges have been decreasing for decades. PTA 2:27:56.800 --> 2:27:58.760 membership has dropped by nearly half from what it was 2:27:58.840 --> 2:28:03.720 in sixties, Bowling leagues have almost disappeared, and a shared 2:28:03.800 --> 2:28:08.760 national experience of military service disintegrated with the abolition of 2:28:08.840 --> 2:28:14.240 conscription in nineteen seventy three. Meanwhile, self proclaimed citizen militia's 2:28:14.440 --> 2:28:17.440 driven mainly by far right conspiracy theories, have surged since 2:28:17.480 --> 2:28:19.760 two US and eight, especially in the past five years. 2:28:20.560 --> 2:28:27.320 So he is wrong, but he's yes, militias have leagues, 2:28:27.840 --> 2:28:32.680 militias have risen. But is that due to bowling leagues. Yeah, 2:28:32.760 --> 2:28:35.440 I don't think it's due to a drop in bowling leagues. 2:28:35.640 --> 2:28:37.480 I think it's due to the fact that all these 2:28:37.520 --> 2:28:41.400 guys are terminally online now and we're watching Fox News 2:28:41.480 --> 2:28:44.320 for twenty years before that. That is the thing is that, like, 2:28:44.760 --> 2:28:48.320 I don't think this guy, Brian Michael Dickens understands how 2:28:48.440 --> 2:28:52.560 the Internet intersects with extremism because he's he's doing this 2:28:52.680 --> 2:28:55.800 from a very like like he's he's acting like we're 2:28:55.840 --> 2:28:58.840 still in the seventies and he like, like, that's not 2:28:59.040 --> 2:29:01.560 how the war old works, and I like, people spend 2:29:01.600 --> 2:29:05.000 their time. No, people aren't doing bowling leagues, but yeah, woman, 2:29:05.240 --> 2:29:07.920 young men are spending and and you know, middle edgement 2:29:07.959 --> 2:29:10.960 are spending time online, whether that be discord in a 2:29:11.280 --> 2:29:14.039 terrorist group chat, or that be a Facebook group that's 2:29:14.080 --> 2:29:17.720 for a militia, and that's where that socialization is happening. 2:29:18.000 --> 2:29:21.400 And because the Internet rewards extremism and the hottest take, 2:29:21.760 --> 2:29:24.720 it's moving in that direction even with people who would 2:29:24.800 --> 2:29:29.240 ordinarily just have historically the past joined bowling leagues. I guess, 2:29:29.440 --> 2:29:33.360 but it very it's it's correlation doesn't equal causation. Ship 2:29:33.560 --> 2:29:36.200 it's wow, less people are in bowling leagues and going 2:29:36.280 --> 2:29:40.880 to church and militias have grown wildly, wildly, Um, this 2:29:41.600 --> 2:29:43.480 one must cause the other. And it's like, well, no, 2:29:44.000 --> 2:29:46.600 they're both both of those things. May have some causes 2:29:46.640 --> 2:29:50.160 in common, there may be similar factors that are driving 2:29:50.280 --> 2:29:53.880 both of those things, but they are not caused like 2:29:54.080 --> 2:29:57.800 they don't necessary. One doesn't necessarily cause the other. Um. 2:29:58.240 --> 2:30:00.720 And if you like, again, the smart person version of 2:30:00.760 --> 2:30:03.000 this would be to say, hey, people are doing less 2:30:03.040 --> 2:30:05.640 things together out in the world. People are reporting because 2:30:05.680 --> 2:30:07.720 you can find statistic backup for this. People seem to 2:30:07.760 --> 2:30:10.840 be lonelier than ever. UM, people are more depressed than ever. 2:30:10.959 --> 2:30:14.680 Suicide rates have risen, and while this is happening, militias 2:30:14.720 --> 2:30:18.520 and extremist groups have grown. Perhaps there's something about these organizations, 2:30:18.879 --> 2:30:22.680 UM that makes them particularly attractive when folks are vulnerable 2:30:22.840 --> 2:30:25.200 due to these things. And like, let's look at you know, 2:30:25.840 --> 2:30:28.440 the failure of our political system to confront these issues 2:30:28.520 --> 2:30:31.640 further feeds into the desire amongst some chunk of the 2:30:31.680 --> 2:30:35.520 populace for some sort of nihilistic cleansing violence. And again, 2:30:36.600 --> 2:30:39.160 pieces of all the pieces of this article could be 2:30:39.360 --> 2:30:43.480 could be reassembled into something with um some insight, but 2:30:43.680 --> 2:30:46.760 I I don't think Brian Michael Jenkins has much. I 2:30:46.800 --> 2:30:49.119 think it's also an interesting thing to note here about 2:30:49.640 --> 2:30:52.200 because so the lessing he talks about this, oh, is 2:30:52.360 --> 2:30:54.640 the thing that formed the commons or national identity was 2:30:55.160 --> 2:30:59.840 shared universal Military service. And it's like, okay, the the 2:31:00.120 --> 2:31:03.400 reason shared universal military service went away was that everyone 2:31:03.520 --> 2:31:06.440 kept murdering literally just blowing their officers up in Vietnam 2:31:07.640 --> 2:31:09.280 like that. And you know, if if you want to 2:31:09.320 --> 2:31:12.800 talk about like incredibly high levels of political polarization and 2:31:12.959 --> 2:31:16.800 like mass violence between Americans. I mean, the army basically 2:31:16.920 --> 2:31:20.880 fighting a civil war against itself in Vietnam is you know, 2:31:21.000 --> 2:31:23.720 in an enormously important part of this. And then simultaneously 2:31:24.200 --> 2:31:27.040 the sort of right wing vets returning home and you know, 2:31:27.879 --> 2:31:30.040 going Louis Beam and stuff like that that you know, 2:31:31.760 --> 2:31:35.920 he's relying on this kind of mythos of this. So 2:31:36.320 --> 2:31:38.240 there was a time when you know, it's it's basic, 2:31:38.280 --> 2:31:40.360 it's basically made it make America great again. But sort 2:31:40.400 --> 2:31:43.960 of like, yeah, that this type of rhetoric is actually 2:31:44.080 --> 2:31:47.400 very similar to like the return return to tradition stuff, 2:31:47.400 --> 2:31:50.080 being like the solution to our extremism that need to 2:31:50.120 --> 2:31:52.120 be going to church church again, being a part of 2:31:52.200 --> 2:31:56.880 civil organizations, joining bowling leagues and conscript conscripted military service. 2:31:57.240 --> 2:32:01.160 That's like that is that that is just the same 2:32:01.520 --> 2:32:03.760 that that is very similar to like the make America 2:32:03.760 --> 2:32:06.760 grade again, returned to tradition sect because those are those 2:32:06.800 --> 2:32:09.600 are also their goals, except that they're just willing to 2:32:09.680 --> 2:32:12.480 use violence to achieve those goals, whereas this guy just 2:32:12.640 --> 2:32:15.360 wants people to start doing that again. I guess, um, 2:32:15.600 --> 2:32:17.760 I don't know, Yeah, like in terms of like military 2:32:17.840 --> 2:32:21.880 service not leading to extremism, I mean, like Oklahoma City bombing. 2:32:22.320 --> 2:32:24.480 I don't, I don't, I don't really there is other 2:32:24.520 --> 2:32:26.600 stuff going on there. But like in terms of terms 2:32:26.640 --> 2:32:28.720 of that being like an example, it is, it is 2:32:28.800 --> 2:32:32.480 very silly because a lot of a lot of a 2:32:32.520 --> 2:32:34.840 lot of the guys even inside you know, are are 2:32:34.920 --> 2:32:37.080 current like three per centers and stuff. A lot of 2:32:37.160 --> 2:32:43.640 them have former military service, so that I mean, but like, yeah, 2:32:44.520 --> 2:32:48.040 citizen militias in terms of gaining popularity, but specifically due 2:32:48.120 --> 2:32:51.199 to um kind of overall distrust of the federal government 2:32:51.360 --> 2:32:55.520 and the type of socialization that being online too much 2:32:57.160 --> 2:33:00.840 results in, has yes, grown, grown, grown the militia movement 2:33:00.920 --> 2:33:06.080 a lot um and and I just don't see how 2:33:06.840 --> 2:33:09.200 Bowling is going to solve that issue in terms of 2:33:10.520 --> 2:33:13.040 in terms of how do we mean to trust the 2:33:13.080 --> 2:33:15.879 federal government? Solve that issue? Garrison. But but you've never 2:33:16.040 --> 2:33:18.959 watched The Big Lebowski, so you wouldn't you wouldn't understand. 2:33:19.560 --> 2:33:22.320 I have not watched The Big Lebowski. So I'm kind 2:33:22.320 --> 2:33:24.000 of I'm kind of I'm kind of done with the 2:33:25.440 --> 2:33:28.320 kind of done with the NBC piece there. I know, 2:33:28.440 --> 2:33:33.760 there was there was something Brian Michael Jenkins. The other 2:33:33.879 --> 2:33:36.920 thing on on the Brookings thing that I have a 2:33:37.160 --> 2:33:41.000 decent issue with is that they're one of the reasons 2:33:41.080 --> 2:33:42.880 they give for and and this is actually something that 2:33:42.959 --> 2:33:45.040 Brian Michael Jenkins also brings up with the NBC piece, 2:33:45.120 --> 2:33:47.120 is that one of the reasons why they believe the 2:33:47.160 --> 2:33:49.720 civil war is not as inevitable is because there is 2:33:49.800 --> 2:33:54.120 no clear regional split like a North South divide, and 2:33:54.400 --> 2:33:56.680 they for some reason think this means that there is 2:33:56.760 --> 2:34:01.160 less likely to be civil conflict. Um. They they recognized 2:34:01.200 --> 2:34:04.440 there is an urban rule divide in most states, but 2:34:04.600 --> 2:34:08.400 because there is no large, kind of obvious North South divide, 2:34:08.480 --> 2:34:10.120 they think this is going to make a civil war 2:34:10.280 --> 2:34:12.879 less likely. Well, the map would really be a pain 2:34:12.959 --> 2:34:15.400 in the ass, so it probably won't happen, right, Like 2:34:15.520 --> 2:34:17.880 that's that's the thing they're thinking, is like, Oh, if 2:34:17.920 --> 2:34:20.080 I was gonna if I've have to map this out, 2:34:20.120 --> 2:34:22.600 it's gonna be too complicated. When I read that, I 2:34:22.720 --> 2:34:25.680 had flashbacks to my first trip to a war zone 2:34:25.680 --> 2:34:28.760 in Ukraine, where we were like taking Google maps up 2:34:28.800 --> 2:34:30.720 to a certain point and then we had to use 2:34:30.920 --> 2:34:33.240 like hand drawn notes because he was like, well, the 2:34:33.600 --> 2:34:36.560 different like the different chunks of this air next like 2:34:36.680 --> 2:34:39.560 twenty acres that are owned by the separatists as opposed 2:34:39.600 --> 2:34:42.040 to the government are like you can't use Google, It'll 2:34:42.080 --> 2:34:45.879 send you into enemy territories because it's not a clean 2:34:45.959 --> 2:34:49.200 break because you had literally suburbs of cities fighting each 2:34:49.240 --> 2:34:52.640 other and you still do. Yeah, this is a this 2:34:52.800 --> 2:34:54.360 is you know, I think personally, this this is this 2:34:54.480 --> 2:34:57.200 is a sort of peak American brain thing because you know, 2:34:57.520 --> 2:34:59.920 there's there's been like five ever civil wars that are 2:35:00.000 --> 2:35:02.360 broken like this, and the problem is that there's American 2:35:02.400 --> 2:35:05.160 Civil War and then we also fought in both Vietnam 2:35:05.200 --> 2:35:09.440 and North Korea. But like, yeah, yeah, we were really 2:35:09.600 --> 2:35:12.240 civil war. Yeah yeah, yeah, that's that's there was fighting 2:35:12.320 --> 2:35:14.440 between two halfs of the country that it was a 2:35:14.560 --> 2:35:17.080 proxy for two others several other kind of ye and 2:35:17.160 --> 2:35:19.840 that's yeah. And that's and that's the thing that like, 2:35:20.640 --> 2:35:24.720 it's the combination of the American Civil War was very 2:35:24.920 --> 2:35:29.240 unique civil war, and then the other major things that 2:35:29.360 --> 2:35:31.760 we think of as like quote unquote civil wars were 2:35:31.879 --> 2:35:33.840 you know, we're basically cold war stuff. And I mean, 2:35:33.959 --> 2:35:35.880 you know, like that there there are a couple other 2:35:36.160 --> 2:35:39.280 like yeah, I mean there have been other examples of 2:35:39.320 --> 2:35:41.400 like secessionist stuff like that. Like I mean, in in 2:35:41.800 --> 2:35:44.400 any civil war, like there's a lot of other countries 2:35:44.480 --> 2:35:46.400 that get involved. In the US Civil War, there was 2:35:46.440 --> 2:35:49.240 a significant amount of that sort of thing. And even 2:35:49.360 --> 2:35:52.160 even even even in the US Civil War, like there 2:35:52.200 --> 2:35:55.040 are just like towns in the middle of like Confederate 2:35:55.160 --> 2:35:57.080 Territory they're like, no, funk this, we're not going over. 2:35:57.680 --> 2:36:00.040 But everyone but people have this just like incredibly i 2:36:00.160 --> 2:36:02.720 optic view of what a civil war is. And it's 2:36:02.760 --> 2:36:05.160 like every other civil war that's been fought in the 2:36:05.280 --> 2:36:10.039 last like fifty years has been just seven thousand factions 2:36:10.680 --> 2:36:14.800 like neighborhood fighting each other. I don't know, it's just 2:36:14.840 --> 2:36:18.320 incredibly frustrating watch these people not understand this. It's very 2:36:18.400 --> 2:36:22.840 America brained, and it's very sad because I'm going to 2:36:22.920 --> 2:36:25.080 read a quote that's gonna make us want to purge 2:36:25.120 --> 2:36:29.200 our ears. There are urban rule differences within specific states, 2:36:29.320 --> 2:36:33.279 with progressives dominating the cities while conservatives reside in rural communities, 2:36:33.520 --> 2:36:36.240 but that is a far different geographic divide than when 2:36:36.280 --> 2:36:39.040 one region could wage war on another. The lack of 2:36:39.080 --> 2:36:43.240 a distinctive or uniform geographic division limits the ability to 2:36:43.400 --> 2:36:47.000 confront other areas organized supply chains and mobilize the population. 2:36:47.280 --> 2:36:49.680 There can be local skirmiches between different forces, but not 2:36:49.800 --> 2:36:53.640 a situation where one state or region attacks another, which 2:36:53.959 --> 2:36:58.120 is complete nonsense And that's not how like it's like 2:36:58.200 --> 2:37:02.039 they don't understand that really fighting exists, and they don't 2:37:02.120 --> 2:37:06.039 understand how the whole, the whole, the whole part about 2:37:06.600 --> 2:37:09.280 organizing supply chains and mobilized population, like that is just 2:37:09.400 --> 2:37:13.080 another way to fight a war is by exploiting that 2:37:13.400 --> 2:37:17.240 specific thing like the fact that cities are so isolated 2:37:17.720 --> 2:37:20.640 um and lack and and and lack of home much 2:37:20.720 --> 2:37:23.360 resources and the fact that rural areas are isolated in 2:37:23.360 --> 2:37:25.360 a different way and lack of separate resources. That is 2:37:25.440 --> 2:37:28.080 not something that makes a civil war less likely. That 2:37:28.200 --> 2:37:32.440 just makes it more complicated and makes it fighting over 2:37:32.560 --> 2:37:36.080 Amazon fulfillment centers and the like. Yeah, like it's it's 2:37:36.280 --> 2:37:41.080 the it is It is ridiculous, um saying that, Yeah, 2:37:41.400 --> 2:37:45.000 saying that the that that it's it's far different from 2:37:45.000 --> 2:37:47.760 a geographic divide that one reacher could wage one another 2:37:47.879 --> 2:37:50.240 is like that, No that you're you're just saying something 2:37:50.320 --> 2:37:53.520 that is just completely wrong and like you have not 2:37:53.720 --> 2:37:58.560 studied any type of like urban conflict whatsoever. Yeah, And 2:37:58.720 --> 2:38:00.560 and I think it's important thing to say, which is 2:38:00.600 --> 2:38:06.520 that regions mostly it's not that region's wage warning. Yeah, 2:38:06.520 --> 2:38:11.080 it's not. People don't do the fighting. Yeah, Like regions 2:38:11.120 --> 2:38:14.200 aren't the things that are fighting. It's the people in areas, 2:38:14.240 --> 2:38:16.520 and people can move around and people can block off 2:38:16.520 --> 2:38:19.400 access to areas, and like it's it's this, it's a 2:38:19.480 --> 2:38:21.760 weird it's a it's super a weird way to think 2:38:21.800 --> 2:38:24.600 about things. And it's the fact that if if this 2:38:24.760 --> 2:38:28.880 is something that like the Brooking Institution um is, if 2:38:28.920 --> 2:38:31.440 this is what they think on this topic, that's pretty 2:38:31.480 --> 2:38:34.000 sad indicator for what a lot of people how they 2:38:34.720 --> 2:38:36.280 how like a lot of mainstream levels are going to 2:38:36.400 --> 2:38:38.920 view the possibility of any type of civil conflict. And 2:38:39.200 --> 2:38:42.840 I don't know, maybe they feel very secure in their cities, um, 2:38:43.680 --> 2:38:45.959 which which is a weird thing. I've I've not felt 2:38:46.000 --> 2:38:48.400 that in years. Yeah. And I think the other thing 2:38:48.440 --> 2:38:50.720 that's very weird about this is that because so a 2:38:50.800 --> 2:38:53.400 lot of people writing about this are x are um 2:38:53.600 --> 2:38:56.560 like are like kind of terrorism people, right, and the 2:38:56.640 --> 2:38:58.880 kind of terrorism kind of resurgence people. It's weird because 2:38:58.920 --> 2:39:01.520 they used to understand it, like you know, like a 2:39:01.600 --> 2:39:03.760 lot of like you know, because like in in you know, 2:39:03.879 --> 2:39:07.000 in the twentieth century and even sort of early century, 2:39:07.400 --> 2:39:10.480 like the the sort of the sort of standard like 2:39:10.600 --> 2:39:14.320 grilla insurgency doctrine was, you know, it's some some some 2:39:14.600 --> 2:39:19.760 some variation on the like maoists fish in the sea, 2:39:20.240 --> 2:39:23.280 like surround the cities where we're like ural areas, etcetera, 2:39:23.320 --> 2:39:26.199 etcet etcetera, and like and you you even see versions 2:39:26.240 --> 2:39:28.920 of this, you know, in things that are quite civil 2:39:28.959 --> 2:39:31.240 wars but are kind of like what happened like the 2:39:32.440 --> 2:39:34.200 water and gas wars and Oblivi and there the three 2:39:34.240 --> 2:39:37.240 thousand's where like you know, what what what, Yeah, you 2:39:37.720 --> 2:39:39.480 have kind of an urban reyal divide with they have 2:39:39.520 --> 2:39:41.600 allies in the cities, but the sort of you know, 2:39:41.959 --> 2:39:45.080 like the you have a bunch of rural indigenous groups 2:39:45.120 --> 2:39:47.920 that literally just you know, they blockade every road in 2:39:48.000 --> 2:39:50.120 the country and then start off the cities out right. 2:39:50.160 --> 2:39:51.200 I mean, this is this is this is this is 2:39:51.240 --> 2:39:54.760 just a thing that happened in like five six It's 2:39:54.800 --> 2:39:57.800 just like yeah, that is like, yeah, that is that 2:39:58.040 --> 2:40:00.720 that is going to happen sooner than later, whether that 2:40:00.840 --> 2:40:03.720 be caused by accident, by some type of climate natural disaster, 2:40:04.120 --> 2:40:07.160 or on purpose by a militia like that, it's just 2:40:07.320 --> 2:40:08.960 a matter of time until we have to deal with 2:40:09.080 --> 2:40:13.720 this massive problem. Yeah. Um. And it's like I've been 2:40:13.760 --> 2:40:17.119 reading recently about um Uruguay and what happened with them, 2:40:17.160 --> 2:40:20.200 and like the seventies when their dictatorship took over and 2:40:20.840 --> 2:40:23.320 they had a left wing group that was like very 2:40:23.400 --> 2:40:25.600 much engaged in kind of a lot of acts of 2:40:25.680 --> 2:40:29.359 poetic terrorism, like you know, robbing banks to steal paperwork 2:40:29.440 --> 2:40:31.440 that they would then hand over to like somebody to 2:40:31.959 --> 2:40:36.120 reveal malfeasance within a company, or like stealing trucks of 2:40:36.240 --> 2:40:39.320 food going to like some big wealthy Christmas party and 2:40:39.440 --> 2:40:42.600 redistributing it in poor neighborhoods. Pretty rad stuff. And one 2:40:42.680 --> 2:40:46.800 of the ways in which the new incoming dictatorial regime 2:40:46.879 --> 2:40:50.119 cracked down to them as they deputized like ten thousand 2:40:50.640 --> 2:40:53.080 jud's and gave them guns and sent them in with 2:40:53.200 --> 2:40:55.440 the army. Um. And I was like, yeah, I could 2:40:55.480 --> 2:40:58.800 absolutely see ship could that happen? Yeah, Like if there 2:40:58.879 --> 2:41:02.360 was some sort of uprising in a in a liberal city. 2:41:02.480 --> 2:41:07.400 There's areas around them filled with chuds there and there 2:41:07.520 --> 2:41:10.920 is precedent. There is precedent for police doing that. Um, 2:41:11.280 --> 2:41:14.320 they have done it within your r I shot Garrison 2:41:15.000 --> 2:41:19.000 like on small scales. So I think we'll have one 2:41:19.040 --> 2:41:22.400 more break and come back and talk about a talk 2:41:22.440 --> 2:41:25.600 about a hedge fund. Oh funk I love hedge funds. 2:41:25.680 --> 2:41:27.600 Let me get Let me get my hedge funds. Shared 2:41:27.640 --> 2:41:30.440 out the shirt that I wear when talking about hedge funds. 2:41:31.840 --> 2:41:34.560 All right, I have my hedge found shirt on UM. 2:41:35.560 --> 2:41:38.080 As you can all see, it's a picture of Ringo 2:41:38.280 --> 2:41:42.160 star filating himself. I don't know why that's my hedge 2:41:42.200 --> 2:41:45.440 fund shirt. I don't I don't know either, but I 2:41:45.520 --> 2:41:49.120 love the beach boys. Um anyway, so thank you perfect 2:41:49.320 --> 2:41:53.400 nailed it. Uh we should we talk about this hedge 2:41:53.400 --> 2:41:55.280 fund guy? Yes? I do want to talk with the 2:41:55.280 --> 2:41:59.440 hedge fund guy because this is when something with this 2:41:59.600 --> 2:42:03.400 much money he is talking about this one just for fun, right, 2:42:03.560 --> 2:42:06.200 he's doing this just for ships for funds. Yeah, he's 2:42:06.240 --> 2:42:08.480 doing it for ships and giggles. And he wrote a 2:42:08.560 --> 2:42:11.800 book kind of on this topic and he proposed one 2:42:12.280 --> 2:42:16.160 one solution he came up with one thing that will 2:42:16.200 --> 2:42:19.600 prevent us from entering a civil war. Um, which shows 2:42:19.680 --> 2:42:23.520 how smart these hedge fund people are. Um. But first, uh, 2:42:23.840 --> 2:42:26.560 I Chris would love to I would love for you 2:42:26.720 --> 2:42:30.280 to explain who who this Who this dude is? Okay, 2:42:30.360 --> 2:42:35.040 So Rage Dahlio is a hedge fund manager and he 2:42:35.440 --> 2:42:40.760 is So he runs Bridge Bridgewater Associates one allegedly the 2:42:40.840 --> 2:42:45.360 world's largest hedge fund firm. Yeah, and it depends how 2:42:45.400 --> 2:42:47.120 you to find anything, but yeah, alleged it's a very 2:42:47.200 --> 2:42:50.800 large fund. And this guy, this guy is weird by 2:42:50.920 --> 2:42:53.920 like venture capital standards. So the Bridge Waters whole thing 2:42:54.040 --> 2:42:56.680 is that everyone in the company is constantly surveiled at 2:42:56.680 --> 2:42:58.520 all times, and anyone else in the company could look 2:42:58.520 --> 2:43:00.520 at when anyone else is doing. It's supposed to be 2:43:00.600 --> 2:43:02.800 like it's like total transparency, and what it actually means again, 2:43:02.879 --> 2:43:04.760 is it like you can you can look at, like 2:43:05.320 --> 2:43:08.840 fucking what any of your colleagues, like also working at 2:43:08.879 --> 2:43:11.160 this place, is doing, just sucking at their day job. 2:43:11.240 --> 2:43:12.560 You can see all their records, you can see everything 2:43:12.600 --> 2:43:15.520 they're looking at. And the other thing that he's known 2:43:15.640 --> 2:43:18.000 for is that he doesn't trust anyone else to like 2:43:18.120 --> 2:43:19.920 run the hedge fund after he retires. Your dies. So 2:43:20.000 --> 2:43:22.400 he's trying to build like like a cybernetic version of 2:43:22.480 --> 2:43:25.200 his brain to keep running the hedge funds. The like 2:43:25.440 --> 2:43:28.720 other hedge fund weirdos think this guy is fucking wild 2:43:29.200 --> 2:43:32.160 And yeah, he's he's a time and he runs one 2:43:32.200 --> 2:43:35.760 of the world's funds. It's great, it's we it's it's 2:43:36.160 --> 2:43:38.200 amazing and good we give these people this much money 2:43:38.240 --> 2:43:40.880 to control. So I will say, when it comes to 2:43:41.000 --> 2:43:44.360 his actual analysis of like whether or not it's likely, 2:43:44.520 --> 2:43:50.080 I don't particularly disagree with anything. Yes, I it's it's 2:43:50.120 --> 2:43:55.600 broadly reasonable. Yeah, his looking Yeah for what, he's just 2:43:55.720 --> 2:43:57.280 doing this because because he thinks it's fun. He has 2:43:57.360 --> 2:44:00.600 enough money he's gonna survive whatever. Um. But yeah, he's 2:44:01.120 --> 2:44:03.640 also I mean, part of why this is fairly credible 2:44:03.760 --> 2:44:05.600 is he's I mean, if you're if you're good at this, 2:44:05.879 --> 2:44:08.280 it means that you have one actual talent, which is 2:44:08.520 --> 2:44:11.760 is judging risk. Um. And I think he's probably pretty 2:44:11.760 --> 2:44:14.360 good at judging risk. Yeah, So he he he said 2:44:14.400 --> 2:44:16.320 that he believes there's like a high likely could that 2:44:16.560 --> 2:44:19.000 a civil war or something resembling it will break out 2:44:19.040 --> 2:44:23.200 within the decade. Um is the number he gives. He's 2:44:23.240 --> 2:44:26.560 the number he gives and then he, um, yeah, wait, 2:44:26.640 --> 2:44:30.120 let's see. Yeah he said there's also he have a 2:44:30.160 --> 2:44:32.360 quality says it's a we're we're in a we're in 2:44:32.520 --> 2:44:36.960 a high risk position right now. Um, and yeah. He 2:44:37.080 --> 2:44:39.480 he talks about the different kind of reasons why he 2:44:39.600 --> 2:44:41.480 believes so in this book, most of which are like 2:44:42.200 --> 2:44:45.920 pretty reasonable, um in terms of like uh in in 2:44:46.040 --> 2:44:49.440 terms of like looking at a population and how much 2:44:49.879 --> 2:44:53.920 how like you know, the various like polarization between politics 2:44:54.080 --> 2:44:58.520 and culture and all this kind of stuff. Um. But 2:44:58.879 --> 2:45:03.360 the solution that he gives to this is that, um, 2:45:03.959 --> 2:45:07.560 we should make a formal judgment for quote unquote close 2:45:07.640 --> 2:45:11.480 elections and have the losers respect the outcomes, and then 2:45:11.560 --> 2:45:14.560 once that happens, the order is going to be like 2:45:15.120 --> 2:45:17.920 restored and respected, and then we will avert a civil war. 2:45:18.080 --> 2:45:21.320 So he he thinks that a civil will will probably 2:45:21.400 --> 2:45:25.240 be like enacted by some type of election dispute, which 2:45:25.360 --> 2:45:28.360 that is actually very reasonable in terms of what happened 2:45:28.640 --> 2:45:30.640 in our last election. If there's like a big if 2:45:30.640 --> 2:45:33.600 there's big elections, that can absolutely spark some type of conflict. 2:45:33.840 --> 2:45:36.680 But the idea that we can avert a civil war 2:45:37.160 --> 2:45:41.600 by just having an organization to judge close elections is like, 2:45:42.080 --> 2:45:46.080 but that's not gonna solve Like, that's not gonna if 2:45:46.120 --> 2:45:48.000 you do that, that's not going to solve the close 2:45:48.040 --> 2:45:51.000 election problem. That doesn't even if you do it, that 2:45:51.080 --> 2:45:55.240 won't be a solution. You know, I will say, like, yeah, 2:45:57.240 --> 2:46:01.720 credit where minor credit is due. Raydalio is in fact 2:46:01.920 --> 2:46:06.640 right that the difference between two thousands, which is when 2:46:06.680 --> 2:46:11.600 the last time someone actually literally stolen election happened where yeah, 2:46:11.800 --> 2:46:15.600 but Bush Bush openly reads the election. It's incredibly obvious, 2:46:16.360 --> 2:46:18.480 like there there's like six ways he does this. Everyone 2:46:18.560 --> 2:46:20.440 knows what's happening. And the reaction is everyone just kind 2:46:20.440 --> 2:46:22.600 of shrugs because they're like, oh, this dream courts legitimate 2:46:23.040 --> 2:46:28.800 compared to both, which, yeah, that that's you know, that's 2:46:28.879 --> 2:46:32.240 that's that's there. There there's been an actual break there. 2:46:32.360 --> 2:46:35.600 It's just that I don't know, maybe I think it's 2:46:35.640 --> 2:46:37.720 it's almost just like a lip brained thing where it's 2:46:37.760 --> 2:46:40.240 like you think that if you have an institution that 2:46:40.360 --> 2:46:43.840 sets down rules this, this will make everything okay because 2:46:43.879 --> 2:46:45.920 everyone will obey it. And that's just not where we 2:46:45.959 --> 2:46:48.760 are anymore. Yeah, I mean there was just a poll 2:46:48.840 --> 2:46:51.240 that came out recently that should like Americans trust in 2:46:51.280 --> 2:46:54.320 the military has fallen to its lowest level ever registered, 2:46:54.400 --> 2:46:56.760 and like that was kind of the one thing left 2:46:56.879 --> 2:47:00.520 that most people felt positively about. Not to say that 2:47:00.560 --> 2:47:03.720 that's even a good thing, but just like the there 2:47:03.840 --> 2:47:07.480 is such a complete fucking lack of faith in institutions 2:47:07.680 --> 2:47:10.720 across the spectrum in the United States. But it's like, 2:47:10.840 --> 2:47:15.600 how unless you're hiring I don't know, um fucking no. 2:47:15.720 --> 2:47:18.080 I would say Tom Hanks, but Tom Hanks has even 2:47:18.120 --> 2:47:22.760 gotten politicized, even viruses. So yeah, there's no one they 2:47:22.800 --> 2:47:25.200 could pick to get do this job that people would 2:47:25.240 --> 2:47:28.320 feel good about if they Yeah, I mean, I'm sure 2:47:28.360 --> 2:47:30.440 if they brought Mr Rogers back from the dead, half 2:47:30.480 --> 2:47:32.640 the country would call him a cuck. So I don't 2:47:32.680 --> 2:47:35.480 I don't know what what, I don't know who Daio 2:47:35.600 --> 2:47:39.840 thinks is going to like get everybody on board. So 2:47:40.560 --> 2:47:46.440 maybe maybe, uh maybe, um, Danny DeVito, Danny DeVito might 2:47:46.440 --> 2:47:49.680 be able to do it. Well. I think if if 2:47:49.760 --> 2:47:51.840 we put all of our hope in Danny DeVito, that 2:47:52.000 --> 2:47:55.160 is a better solution than what any of these articles 2:47:55.760 --> 2:47:59.720 the Supreme Court. It beats it beats every other quote 2:48:00.040 --> 2:48:05.360 solution these articles. I mean Odin Kirk brought Twitter together 2:48:05.480 --> 2:48:08.280 that one week. Maybe yeah, yeah, you know with with 2:48:08.560 --> 2:48:10.920 the practice to your court. If you just picked twelve 2:48:11.080 --> 2:48:17.039 random people off the street, and we're like, that's that's 2:48:17.040 --> 2:48:18.560 the thing, it's like, I am, I am all for 2:48:19.000 --> 2:48:22.560 It's the term isn't the term isn't a democracy? Um, 2:48:22.720 --> 2:48:27.080 it's it's I forget the term yes of of almost 2:48:27.160 --> 2:48:29.320 I forget exactly. But it's when a government is not 2:48:29.440 --> 2:48:32.720 composed of elected leaders, composed of a random selected a 2:48:32.840 --> 2:48:35.920 random selection of people, and they made decisions and then 2:48:35.959 --> 2:48:38.160 their decisions over then we then we get a new selection. 2:48:38.360 --> 2:48:41.920 I'm all for that model of government over almost any other. 2:48:42.240 --> 2:48:45.240 It sounds way better than what we have. Yeah. Yeah, 2:48:45.600 --> 2:48:48.120 So that that is. That is the three pieces I 2:48:48.160 --> 2:48:50.920 want to talk about. The independent piece on the Hedge 2:48:50.959 --> 2:48:53.640 Fund of Brooking Institution, on the Civil War, and then uh, 2:48:54.160 --> 2:48:58.440 Brian went no, not not Brian, yes of Brian Michael 2:48:58.520 --> 2:49:02.960 jenkins Um, senior advisor to the President of rand Brime 2:49:03.040 --> 2:49:07.520 I j who who who wrote? Who? Who wrote the 2:49:08.120 --> 2:49:10.640 thing for NBC. So yeah, that is just the terms 2:49:10.680 --> 2:49:13.720 of in terms of you know, people in institutions talking 2:49:13.720 --> 2:49:18.120 about the topic more generally and sometimes decent ways, oftentimes 2:49:18.200 --> 2:49:21.160 not decent ways. That is, that is the stuff from 2:49:21.280 --> 2:49:24.879 like the just the past between the past week, two months, 2:49:25.360 --> 2:49:30.600 of people with big salaries talking about the Civil War, yeah, 2:49:30.800 --> 2:49:32.680 or in terms of the in terms of the hedge 2:49:32.680 --> 2:49:35.800 fun guy, not a salary, just billions of dollars, Yeah, 2:49:35.879 --> 2:49:39.800 just billions of dollars and thinking it's neat. Um, I 2:49:39.879 --> 2:49:42.760 don't know, you know, every time one of these comes out, 2:49:42.879 --> 2:49:46.080 I get tagged by a bunch of people, um, saying 2:49:46.160 --> 2:49:48.879 like Robbert is the thing you were talking about? Other 2:49:48.959 --> 2:49:53.320 people are talking about it, and um, I don't know, 2:49:53.480 --> 2:49:56.039 I don't like that this is the thing other people 2:49:56.080 --> 2:49:58.279 are talking about that I've been talking about as opposed 2:49:58.320 --> 2:50:03.200 to mass Zeppelin, transit or something more fun. Yeah, these 2:50:03.240 --> 2:50:06.600 people could dedicate the resource into something more manageable for them. 2:50:06.959 --> 2:50:10.600 And because they don't have a good grasp, especially the 2:50:10.640 --> 2:50:12.880 Brian Michaeljakins guy has and has no grasp on how 2:50:13.040 --> 2:50:16.440 extremism works. Um, And it would be better if they 2:50:16.520 --> 2:50:18.920 dedicate the resources to something else. But this is the 2:50:19.000 --> 2:50:21.640 world we live in. It would be better if perhaps 2:50:22.000 --> 2:50:26.080 Brian Michael Jenkins dedicated his his efforts and his platform 2:50:26.120 --> 2:50:28.680 at NBC to looking into Mr Dario and whatever the 2:50:28.720 --> 2:50:31.760 funk he's been up to. Um that might that might 2:50:31.959 --> 2:50:35.720 do more? Man, he just did plan them on. He 2:50:35.720 --> 2:50:38.720 would absolutely Brian Michael Jakins would get PanAm on so 2:50:38.840 --> 2:50:45.600 fucking quick. The panamanias motherfucker in journalism, just just like 2:50:46.360 --> 2:50:49.680 not even not even downtime before that car gets bombed 2:50:51.160 --> 2:50:57.240 as he's talking on air. The Okay, Brian Michael Jenkins 2:50:57.440 --> 2:51:01.120 is seventy nine years old, so oh it won't it 2:51:01.120 --> 2:51:06.040 wouldn't be hard. I just that that that's like a 2:51:06.160 --> 2:51:09.320 ten minute job. I'm just I'm just thinking like Brian 2:51:09.360 --> 2:51:12.000 Michael Jenkins, he's a quote unquote an American expert on 2:51:12.080 --> 2:51:15.280 terrorism and transportation security with four neckends of analysis. This 2:51:15.440 --> 2:51:18.200 is why he doesn't understand modern extremism. It's because, yeah, 2:51:18.200 --> 2:51:20.800 he's still thinking in the seventies mode. That's why sure, 2:51:21.000 --> 2:51:25.240 I'm sure of his thoughts on terrorism are just him 2:51:25.320 --> 2:51:29.000 rehashing opinions about like Hezbollah in the eighties. Yeah, all 2:51:29.040 --> 2:51:31.920 of all of his stuff is superdated. So that's that. 2:51:32.120 --> 2:51:34.320 That's why I I said that previously, is that he 2:51:34.600 --> 2:51:36.360 still views terrorism as like as it was in the 2:51:36.400 --> 2:51:39.040 seventies and yeah, this is this is why. Um so 2:51:39.840 --> 2:51:43.640 that's great, that's that's him. Um anyway, that wraps up 2:51:43.680 --> 2:51:48.440 our show. Um, yeah, watch out for the one. The 2:51:48.480 --> 2:51:51.119 one Brian Michael Jenkins prediction I do think will happen 2:51:51.480 --> 2:51:53.280 is that there's a decent chance we might be back 2:51:53.360 --> 2:51:56.000 in an assassination territory because it is but it has 2:51:56.000 --> 2:51:58.760 been a long time since that has happened. It's it's 2:51:58.840 --> 2:52:01.720 it has been a hot minute and definitely decrease in 2:52:01.879 --> 2:52:06.240 bowling leagues. It keeps happening in the UK. Yeah, I 2:52:06.320 --> 2:52:09.560 love was meaning specifically in in America and well, yeah, 2:52:09.560 --> 2:52:13.080 that's what I'm saying. We're We're not that far away 2:52:13.120 --> 2:52:15.400 from them in terms of like things happening, so that 2:52:15.959 --> 2:52:18.360 I'm kind of surprised it hasn't had. I think it's 2:52:18.360 --> 2:52:23.040 probably just because maybe American legislators are all much more 2:52:23.160 --> 2:52:27.680 concerned about assassination because guns, so people like our elected 2:52:27.760 --> 2:52:30.360 leaders take more precautions than British ones. Did I don't know. 2:52:30.520 --> 2:52:34.880 Maybe I don't know either. Well, speaking of assassinations, you 2:52:34.959 --> 2:52:37.320 can follow us on Twitter and Instagram. That happened here 2:52:37.360 --> 2:52:40.680 probably Coles on media. If we Go Missing it was 2:52:40.720 --> 2:52:43.600 great Dalo. If We Go Missing it was Ray Daldio. 2:52:44.480 --> 2:53:03.520 But could ye everybody welcome to could happen here? Talk podcast? YEP, 2:53:03.640 --> 2:53:05.959 I could say it a podcast. That's what we're doing, 2:53:06.240 --> 2:53:08.880 and it's about it's about how things are kind of 2:53:09.320 --> 2:53:11.480 kind of kind of falling apart sometimes, or at least 2:53:11.480 --> 2:53:13.640 it feels like it, and I don't know, maybe we 2:53:13.720 --> 2:53:16.480 can do some things to help make it better, like 2:53:16.720 --> 2:53:20.760 what happened recently in terms of forests. So, hey, a 2:53:20.840 --> 2:53:26.800 good news episode. Whoa rare rare rare episode drop for us? Uh, 2:53:27.080 --> 2:53:29.600 we got some good news. So I'm gonna be talking 2:53:29.840 --> 2:53:32.840 with Sam, who was on a previous episode discussing a 2:53:32.920 --> 2:53:37.720 forest defense, about an update on on all of the 2:53:37.800 --> 2:53:40.720 things that we were talking about a few weeks ago. Um, 2:53:41.240 --> 2:53:42.959 So yeah, I think we can. We can pretty much 2:53:43.080 --> 2:53:44.840 get into it and then then we'll talk about some 2:53:44.879 --> 2:53:49.360 other stuff around kind of forests in general. So Hello, Sam, 2:53:49.480 --> 2:53:51.920 Thank thank you for joining me again to talk about trees, 2:53:52.200 --> 2:53:56.240 one of one of our favorite topics. Hello, my pleasure always. 2:53:57.240 --> 2:54:01.160 So I think it was like a day or two 2:54:01.280 --> 2:54:03.960 after we dropped the episode or something, or I think 2:54:04.000 --> 2:54:05.560 I think it was. Actually it was maybe maybe even 2:54:05.640 --> 2:54:08.680 like right like right before Um, we got some extra 2:54:08.879 --> 2:54:13.080 extra news about all about the post about the postfire 2:54:13.160 --> 2:54:18.760 logging um near the bright Bush Watershed. Um, yeah what 2:54:18.920 --> 2:54:23.040 happened there? Yeah, yeah, it was pretty wild. Actually it 2:54:23.200 --> 2:54:26.959 was really serendipitous timing too. UM. We as I think 2:54:27.000 --> 2:54:30.080 we mentioned in the last podcast, we were awaiting the 2:54:30.360 --> 2:54:34.440 first hearing for the court case. Essentially, you know, we 2:54:34.640 --> 2:54:36.840 believed that the plan to log in that area for 2:54:37.160 --> 2:54:41.520 myriad reasons was not only unethical but also illegal. Um. 2:54:41.600 --> 2:54:43.520 And so it was going to court, and we were 2:54:43.920 --> 2:54:48.320 awaiting a hearing that happened on December three, Friday. And 2:54:49.120 --> 2:54:51.400 typically the judge does not rule from the bench in 2:54:51.480 --> 2:54:53.480 these sorts of hearings, and so we did not expect 2:54:53.520 --> 2:54:56.560 the decision on that day. UM. But sure enough, the 2:54:56.680 --> 2:54:59.680 judge felt h strongly enough about this case and sure 2:54:59.760 --> 2:55:02.560 enough about her decision that she did roll from the 2:55:02.600 --> 2:55:06.280 bench and rolled in our favor. And so yeah, victories. UM. 2:55:06.440 --> 2:55:10.640 Now we have um a preliminary injunction in place, meaning 2:55:10.720 --> 2:55:13.640 that no logging can happen there um at least until 2:55:13.760 --> 2:55:16.760 this uh timber sale has its real day in court. 2:55:17.200 --> 2:55:20.640 Or until the four Service just drops this Shenanigan entirely, 2:55:20.720 --> 2:55:24.400 which hopefully they will do, but we'll see. Yeah, so 2:55:25.560 --> 2:55:28.840 they they blocked, they blocked the posts far logging and 2:55:29.120 --> 2:55:33.360 the the the basically started start starting to clear cut 2:55:33.400 --> 2:55:36.080 these areas without without actual like public and put without 2:55:36.080 --> 2:55:39.000 actually going through the process as flawed as the process. 2:55:39.040 --> 2:55:41.560 Maybe they were just skipping it entirely. So that that 2:55:41.840 --> 2:55:45.520 was that was that was blocked by this by by 2:55:45.560 --> 2:55:48.320 this legal case. Um, what was I guess? Yeah, well 2:55:48.360 --> 2:55:50.440 what was what was the uh? What what was what? 2:55:50.760 --> 2:55:52.880 What was the reaction like in in in the room 2:55:52.959 --> 2:55:59.840 and in the various signal chats when this happened. Yeah, 2:56:00.040 --> 2:56:03.920 in the ether spheres, um, the reaction was super awesome. 2:56:04.080 --> 2:56:07.560 I mean, so many people love this place and that 2:56:07.760 --> 2:56:09.879 was kind of the whole point of what we were 2:56:09.920 --> 2:56:12.560 trying to do when we did the direct action out 2:56:12.600 --> 2:56:15.320 there a number of weeks ago. It was just demonstrate 2:56:15.440 --> 2:56:17.920 how many people love this place and how the Forest 2:56:17.959 --> 2:56:20.400 Service wasn't going to get away with what they're planning 2:56:20.440 --> 2:56:23.560 to do. Um, because people, as we promised, would be 2:56:23.680 --> 2:56:25.960 back if they tried to log it and move forward 2:56:25.959 --> 2:56:28.080 without logging, which as you pointed out, and as we 2:56:28.160 --> 2:56:31.040 said last time, was super sketchy, not only because it 2:56:31.200 --> 2:56:33.840 was a terrible plan that they're planning to do um 2:56:33.920 --> 2:56:35.600 in this beloved for us, but also because it was 2:56:35.680 --> 2:56:38.959 behind locked gates that in the public wasn't allowed into 2:56:39.160 --> 2:56:42.040 and so um, it was just this you know, travesty 2:56:42.160 --> 2:56:44.800 that was about to happen. And when we found out um, 2:56:44.879 --> 2:56:48.480 and when we heard the judges incredibly strong ruling, UM, 2:56:49.520 --> 2:56:53.200 we you know, were absolutely overjoyed. Um. The news spread, 2:56:53.360 --> 2:56:56.520 you know, like wildfire, excuse the pun it how to 2:56:56.600 --> 2:57:00.120 do it? Um, and just you know, all this the 2:57:00.240 --> 2:57:02.960 threads were popping, People were putting it on Twitter, people 2:57:03.040 --> 2:57:06.040 were reposting the sexy photos of the blockade with the 2:57:06.120 --> 2:57:08.440 giant slash pile and the fire truck and the band 2:57:08.520 --> 2:57:10.960 on top of the fire truck. And I just wish 2:57:11.040 --> 2:57:13.119 that we all could have hung out again and had 2:57:13.120 --> 2:57:15.840 another dance party because it was the best that doesn't 2:57:15.840 --> 2:57:21.680 incredibly incredibly rad UM was was like your this is 2:57:21.760 --> 2:57:23.280 this is this is something I don't I don't don't 2:57:23.320 --> 2:57:25.480 actually know, but I was like it was like the 2:57:25.560 --> 2:57:28.440 documentation that was taking place by by going to these 2:57:28.480 --> 2:57:30.840 places and showing hey, this is where they're cutting. Was 2:57:30.959 --> 2:57:33.800 that brought up in the court case in terms of like, hey, 2:57:34.000 --> 2:57:37.480 this is we actually went and saw what's actually happening. 2:57:37.560 --> 2:57:39.720 So it was was that type of evidence used and 2:57:39.800 --> 2:57:43.920 did it in your mind like um um uh kind 2:57:43.920 --> 2:57:46.840 of be a small part of like the result of 2:57:47.160 --> 2:57:50.680 the ruling. Yeah, it definitely was. And that is such 2:57:50.680 --> 2:57:52.800 an important point and I really hope that everyone who's 2:57:52.840 --> 2:57:55.400 listening can just like put that in their minds for later. 2:57:55.560 --> 2:57:58.480 How important it is for people to be UM field 2:57:58.560 --> 2:58:01.600 surveying or sometimes we call it ground truth thing um 2:58:01.920 --> 2:58:06.800 these places and actually collecting documentation photographic evidence. UM. A 2:58:06.840 --> 2:58:08.840 lot of folks do kind of like what we call 2:58:08.920 --> 2:58:13.000 community surveying and collect um some site specific um kind 2:58:13.040 --> 2:58:16.320 of like uh, community science sort of stuff. But all 2:58:16.360 --> 2:58:18.600 of that was used in court and it was super awesome. UM. 2:58:18.640 --> 2:58:20.760 I actually was one of the standing declarence, so I 2:58:20.840 --> 2:58:23.360 got to submit a lot of evidence from my many 2:58:23.480 --> 2:58:27.120 years of traveling that place. UM, and that all of 2:58:27.160 --> 2:58:30.240 that was referenced in court. So so so important. UM. 2:58:30.480 --> 2:58:34.200 Even you know, when the forest services essentially trying to 2:58:34.520 --> 2:58:36.880 kick everyone out and keep everyone out of these places, 2:58:37.040 --> 2:58:40.800 it's really important to go um and see them anyways. Obviously, 2:58:41.000 --> 2:58:43.600 you know, everyone needs to consider how they do that 2:58:43.800 --> 2:58:47.560 and their own security and safety. Um. And it's becoming difficult. Um. 2:58:47.760 --> 2:58:51.280 But certainly putting eyes on threatened places is one of 2:58:51.320 --> 2:58:54.160 the best tools we have to save them. Yeah. I 2:58:54.240 --> 2:58:58.280 just think that's really important to really focus on that 2:58:58.400 --> 2:59:01.440 as like a thing because like, yeah, stuff that people 2:59:01.560 --> 2:59:07.000 did actually had an impact on this not happening right now. Um. 2:59:07.480 --> 2:59:10.520 And yeah, but by going out there and documenting and 2:59:10.680 --> 2:59:13.520 then talking about it, um, it has like an actual 2:59:13.760 --> 2:59:19.240 like causal relation, which is very hard to It's it's 2:59:19.280 --> 2:59:22.840 it's hard to get direct causal stuff to happen in 2:59:23.000 --> 2:59:26.600 like the general umbrella of activism. Um. And it's I 2:59:26.640 --> 2:59:31.160 think it's it's just really exciting that that that this happened. Yeah, 2:59:31.400 --> 2:59:34.800 that's so true. It does feel in the general umbrellaive 2:59:34.800 --> 2:59:36.800 activism really hard to point to things that we do 2:59:36.920 --> 2:59:39.720 that are actually making an effect, and this is totally 2:59:39.800 --> 2:59:42.800 one of them. I mean, when if and when this 2:59:42.959 --> 2:59:46.880 case does have its day in court, um, you know, 2:59:46.959 --> 2:59:50.680 outside of the preliminary injunction itself. UM, I am sure 2:59:50.840 --> 2:59:53.160 that so much of that evidence from all the folks 2:59:53.160 --> 2:59:55.800 who've been traveling there um and documenting it will be used. 2:59:55.840 --> 2:59:59.120 We documented, you know, so many green living trees and 2:59:59.200 --> 3:00:02.640 places before service that were dead, um, you know, so 3:00:02.800 --> 3:00:06.120 many like unused roads in places the Forest Service said 3:00:06.160 --> 3:00:08.360 they needed to log alongside these roads because they're so 3:00:08.520 --> 3:00:11.480 trafficed and they're posing a safety hazard. And so it's 3:00:11.480 --> 3:00:15.120 basically like, you know, the best way to expose their 3:00:15.600 --> 3:00:20.040 gas lighting and lies is to just go document what's there. Yeah, 3:00:20.040 --> 3:00:22.040 because a big part of their ability to do this 3:00:22.440 --> 3:00:26.040 is utilizing deception in terms of like and and and 3:00:26.520 --> 3:00:30.160 utilizing like non information, Like they're just not talking about 3:00:30.240 --> 3:00:32.960 the stuff that's actually happening, or they're doing like white 3:00:33.040 --> 3:00:35.480 lies to make it sound better. So they're just they're 3:00:35.480 --> 3:00:38.040 they're lying about the type of like um uh, the 3:00:38.120 --> 3:00:41.160 type of sales that they're doing with these with these treets, 3:00:41.160 --> 3:00:43.840 and like how they're classifying the trees that they're logging 3:00:43.879 --> 3:00:46.440 to like get it past all of the loopholes. But 3:00:46.560 --> 3:00:49.840 they're not actually like that, that's not actually reality. They're 3:00:49.879 --> 3:00:53.080 just changing the terms to make it fit what they want. 3:00:53.440 --> 3:00:55.280 So like, as as soon as you start looking into 3:00:55.280 --> 3:00:57.760 this stuff, it gets all it gets very sketchy, because 3:00:58.120 --> 3:01:01.119 it is they're just about a lot of this stuff. 3:01:01.200 --> 3:01:04.040 Like if you're like listening and be like, oh, you know, 3:01:04.360 --> 3:01:06.520 be these people just love trees, Like, yes, we do 3:01:06.680 --> 3:01:08.800 love trees, but like the actual thing that's going on 3:01:09.080 --> 3:01:11.440 is like they're lying about the types of damage that's 3:01:11.480 --> 3:01:13.840 being done. They're lying about what areas this is happening 3:01:13.879 --> 3:01:16.760 in all to just rack up more timber sales like 3:01:16.800 --> 3:01:19.800 that that that is that that that is what's actually happening. Um. 3:01:20.080 --> 3:01:23.360 And that's so so important to say, like loudly and clearly, 3:01:23.440 --> 3:01:28.160 because the Forest Service and other management agencies are experts 3:01:28.280 --> 3:01:32.320 in making the public feel dumb and wrong and misinformed. 3:01:32.400 --> 3:01:34.760 And right now, even we sound a little wing nutty 3:01:34.840 --> 3:01:39.879 being like yeah, you know, but like let us be clear, 3:01:40.120 --> 3:01:44.360 a federal judge agrees with us. Yeah you know, like 3:01:44.560 --> 3:01:47.000 we're not the ones who are wrong here, and I 3:01:47.080 --> 3:01:49.400 think you're totally right. You know, they're using a mixture 3:01:49.560 --> 3:01:54.080 of blatant lies, um, but also euphemisms like we no 3:01:54.200 --> 3:01:56.640 one's they don't they don't use the word clear cut anymore. 3:01:56.879 --> 3:01:59.879 They're using all of these euphemisms, you know, regeneration, hard, 3:02:02.320 --> 3:02:03.880 a lot of and a lot of this stuff that 3:02:03.879 --> 3:02:06.600 they're deciding to do is like not open to the public. 3:02:06.640 --> 3:02:08.680 You need to do like fullial requests to to to 3:02:08.879 --> 3:02:11.760 actually learn what they're doing because they don't talk about 3:02:11.800 --> 3:02:14.560 it like that. It is all. It is all extremely sketchy. 3:02:14.640 --> 3:02:17.120 And yeah, like the fact that like a federal a 3:02:17.200 --> 3:02:21.040 federal judge agreed with like green activists is not a 3:02:21.160 --> 3:02:24.800 sentence you here often so like it's like, yeah, this 3:02:24.959 --> 3:02:27.120 is actually a thing, and it's it's important to remember, 3:02:27.200 --> 3:02:30.360 like you are not immune to propaganda, like all a 3:02:30.440 --> 3:02:34.240 lot of this stuff is uh is has people who 3:02:34.640 --> 3:02:36.680 want a lot of money are vested in making people 3:02:36.760 --> 3:02:39.800 believe things about about about about like force management all 3:02:39.840 --> 3:02:42.560 this kind of stuff. Um, yeah, I know it may 3:02:42.640 --> 3:02:44.720 it may sound crazy when we're talking about you know, 3:02:45.040 --> 3:02:48.320 the secret Illuminati of the Force Service. But like no, 3:02:48.520 --> 3:02:50.640 like it acts like it's it is a it is 3:02:50.680 --> 3:02:54.279 a governmental organization. All governmental organizations are kind of sketchy, 3:02:54.680 --> 3:02:57.240 especially when their sole purpose is to one of their 3:02:57.240 --> 3:02:59.480 purposes is to make money or assistant like sales of 3:02:59.600 --> 3:03:02.160 something like yeah, it's it's gonna have some sketchy stuff. 3:03:02.680 --> 3:03:05.960 Um absolutely, And also you know in the realm of 3:03:06.160 --> 3:03:09.160 just like the propaganda machine, Um, we you know just 3:03:09.280 --> 3:03:13.320 the other day, UM, a hilarious response piece UM came 3:03:13.360 --> 3:03:16.600 out from the timber industry, an organization called Federal Forest 3:03:16.680 --> 3:03:20.760 Resource Coalition, which is just a coalition of loggers. UM 3:03:20.879 --> 3:03:24.680 put out this hilarious little mini video responding directly to 3:03:24.840 --> 3:03:27.040 the line that we've been using in forest events, which 3:03:27.080 --> 3:03:29.560 is worth more standing. Our forests are worth more standing. 3:03:29.920 --> 3:03:32.640 And they put out a hilarious response that is essentially 3:03:32.720 --> 3:03:37.000 you know, pushing this timber slu this logging propaganda, saying well, actually, 3:03:37.400 --> 3:03:40.400 our forests aren't worth anything standing after they've been burned, 3:03:40.440 --> 3:03:44.160 and they're contributing to the climate crisis, and they're destructive, 3:03:44.240 --> 3:03:46.800 you know, and all these things, and so totally I mean, 3:03:47.120 --> 3:03:49.720 even people who see it with their eyes can be 3:03:49.840 --> 3:03:54.320 convinced by these voices that they're wrong because they're so good, 3:03:54.879 --> 3:03:57.400 so good at making us feel just like we're the 3:03:57.480 --> 3:04:00.720 wrong ones, but we're not. We got this, yeah, in 3:04:00.879 --> 3:04:03.320 terms of like this the secretive kind of decision making 3:04:03.440 --> 3:04:05.720 and stuff behind the scenes, In terms of like the 3:04:06.000 --> 3:04:09.240 types of like terms they are using too to you know, 3:04:09.400 --> 3:04:13.400 do like restoration, thinning, um and all this stuff around 3:04:13.800 --> 3:04:16.080 around trying to like basically just just take as many 3:04:16.120 --> 3:04:19.080 trees from the Bright British Watershed as they can, and 3:04:19.480 --> 3:04:25.080 the judge said that she was quote disappointed in the agency, 3:04:25.800 --> 3:04:30.560 uh for for all of their silly behind the scenes 3:04:31.000 --> 3:04:33.959 trench coat meat in the dark alley way to pass 3:04:34.000 --> 3:04:37.680 off information type of thing, um, which is yeah, like 3:04:37.879 --> 3:04:40.000 so what what what is what is some of the 3:04:40.040 --> 3:04:44.080 other kind of um stuff that the four Service and 3:04:44.240 --> 3:04:47.360 the related organizations were trying to We're trying to hide 3:04:47.400 --> 3:04:49.080 like what like what what? What? What? What? What was 3:04:49.160 --> 3:04:52.080 the stuff that like came out um via this legal 3:04:52.160 --> 3:04:53.960 process that was like, yeah, what was it? What was it? 3:04:54.040 --> 3:04:55.920 What was a few of the actual things that they 3:04:55.959 --> 3:04:59.040 were that they were trying to do that eventually like 3:04:59.680 --> 3:05:03.200 came to light mm hmm. The major thing is that 3:05:03.480 --> 3:05:07.120 they were trying to get away with changing the logging 3:05:07.200 --> 3:05:13.080 contracts without doing any additional environmental analysis or public engagement process. 3:05:13.480 --> 3:05:17.400 And so there were before fires, there were there was 3:05:17.440 --> 3:05:20.000 a plan to do what they what we had fought 3:05:20.080 --> 3:05:23.040 them so hard to get them to agree to do, 3:05:23.440 --> 3:05:26.520 which was not log a bunch of these this older 3:05:26.640 --> 3:05:29.840 stands protect tree. They had a diameter limit on trees 3:05:29.920 --> 3:05:31.480 that they were going to log. So we basically like 3:05:31.600 --> 3:05:34.560 slapped their hands off of all of these trees and 3:05:34.720 --> 3:05:37.360 finally were like, okay, we won't sue you if you 3:05:37.440 --> 3:05:40.040 move forward with the plan as stated, and it had 3:05:40.280 --> 3:05:44.039 very strong sideboards, and you know, even local folks were like, okay, 3:05:44.280 --> 3:05:46.600 go do this. And then the fires came through and 3:05:46.680 --> 3:05:48.600 so what they were trying to do was just change 3:05:48.640 --> 3:05:51.000 the plans. They turned it all into clear cuts in 3:05:51.160 --> 3:05:53.600 the forest that we slapped their hands off of. And 3:05:53.680 --> 3:05:55.680 they were trying to argue that they didn't need to 3:05:55.720 --> 3:05:58.680 do any an additional analysis and they didn't need to 3:05:58.760 --> 3:06:01.560 engage the public, and even in court, you know, that's 3:06:01.600 --> 3:06:03.880 what they were arguing. Um. They were they were doing 3:06:04.040 --> 3:06:08.160 some stupid magic math and you know, somersaults, um to 3:06:08.320 --> 3:06:11.760 try and explain how they had already done an analysis 3:06:12.440 --> 3:06:15.240 that accounted somehow for the fires that no one could 3:06:15.280 --> 3:06:19.800 have ever predicted. A. Yeah. So the judge was like 3:06:20.600 --> 3:06:23.400 just you know, she was just roundly like, y'all couldn't 3:06:23.400 --> 3:06:25.760 have predicted I like to give her, you know, Southern accident. 3:06:25.959 --> 3:06:30.080 Y'all couldn't have predicted, Judge Akinstone the South. No, Uh, 3:06:30.320 --> 3:06:33.440 you couldn't have predicted. Uh, you know that the fires 3:06:33.480 --> 3:06:35.680 were going to burn through and so there's no way 3:06:35.760 --> 3:06:38.039 you could have done analysis for fire that you didn't 3:06:38.040 --> 3:06:40.119 know what was going to happen here us silly little beasts. 3:06:40.320 --> 3:06:42.560 But she did talk to them, you know, as if 3:06:42.640 --> 3:06:45.800 they were just naughty little children, which I loved to hear. 3:06:45.920 --> 3:06:48.560 You know, the disappointed in the Forest Service was a 3:06:48.680 --> 3:06:50.640 major move. And I think the other one that came 3:06:50.720 --> 3:06:53.400 up is just you know, the Forest Service was arguing 3:06:53.520 --> 3:06:56.800 that they needed quote need to do this logging um 3:06:57.200 --> 3:07:01.800 for restoration, for economic recovery, um, and to prevent future 3:07:01.879 --> 3:07:05.480 wildfires from severely burning in the area. All of that too. 3:07:05.879 --> 3:07:08.400 BS Like, one thing that the judge said that was 3:07:08.480 --> 3:07:12.840 super strong, UM was that she sees and obviously on 3:07:12.959 --> 3:07:17.000 paraphrasing here um, but she she sees that the community 3:07:17.400 --> 3:07:20.160 loves this place. It's obvious that this is like a 3:07:20.280 --> 3:07:23.920 beloved place, and she, you know, essentially understands that the 3:07:23.959 --> 3:07:26.080 forest is worth more standing. She said that she wanted 3:07:26.200 --> 3:07:28.880 she thinks that the forest needs an opportunity to recover 3:07:29.080 --> 3:07:32.199 from the fires, and so basically just called the BS 3:07:32.280 --> 3:07:35.600 on the Forest Service for their hilarious you know, justifications 3:07:35.640 --> 3:07:38.879 for logging all the we're gonna save the forest by logging. 3:07:38.959 --> 3:07:41.640 It is just not it's not right, it's not accurate. 3:07:41.680 --> 3:07:46.920 In the judge agrees. Yeah, I'm very very excited about 3:07:46.959 --> 3:07:49.240 about this ruling and what it means for the future 3:07:49.360 --> 3:07:51.920 and at least at least at least postponing this until 3:07:52.240 --> 3:07:54.720 um if if if the if if the lawsuits going 3:07:55.040 --> 3:07:56.480 to go through, or if or if they're just going 3:07:56.520 --> 3:07:59.440 to drop this, which they also very well, maybe they 3:07:59.520 --> 3:08:01.920 might decide to focus on another part that is that 3:08:01.959 --> 3:08:04.400 they just don't tell anybody about and start doing it 3:08:04.480 --> 3:08:06.600 there and then you know, we'll we'll start we'll start 3:08:06.640 --> 3:08:09.640 this again. But for this particular area, UM. That is 3:08:09.800 --> 3:08:12.320 that is very exciting, and yeah, it is. It is 3:08:12.440 --> 3:08:15.440 rare for a federal judge to agree with people on 3:08:15.560 --> 3:08:18.600 this topic. UM. And now I want want to talk 3:08:18.600 --> 3:08:21.640 about a few other kind of stuff around like forests, 3:08:22.400 --> 3:08:24.480 um and how and how these kind of types of 3:08:24.560 --> 3:08:27.640 things work. I I didn't get an interesting comment which 3:08:27.680 --> 3:08:30.680 I totally agree with in terms of like how propaganda 3:08:30.720 --> 3:08:34.280 works in this department, um, and how like how like 3:08:34.440 --> 3:08:37.520 logging towns operate, or how like towns became logging towns, 3:08:37.720 --> 3:08:40.880 how like they're basically able to convince local populations that 3:08:41.320 --> 3:08:44.120 logging is is like good because like yeah, like they're 3:08:44.120 --> 3:08:46.000 they're gonna they're gonna move into this town. They're gonna 3:08:46.040 --> 3:08:48.920 restore the town because they're gonna bring in new money 3:08:49.040 --> 3:08:51.880 through like logging industry. Um, and yeah, this is a 3:08:52.040 --> 3:08:54.800 very like, very like a typical move, whether it be 3:08:54.920 --> 3:08:57.760 for like you know, coal mining, whether it be for pipelines. 3:08:57.879 --> 3:09:00.440 In terms of like big companies going into all towns 3:09:00.440 --> 3:09:02.480 and be like, hey, we can promise you economic growth 3:09:02.879 --> 3:09:06.039 if you can like assist in this you know, extract 3:09:06.120 --> 3:09:08.480 of process, and they'll be able to convince them with 3:09:08.600 --> 3:09:11.400 you know, misleading statistics and you know all that kind 3:09:11.440 --> 3:09:14.240 of stuff. In terms of logging industry is getting getting 3:09:14.480 --> 3:09:19.440 really good at radicalizing rule populations to have them believe 3:09:20.040 --> 3:09:23.560 that it's one not it's it's not like economically destructive 3:09:23.920 --> 3:09:26.320 to take down trees. They might even say it's like good, 3:09:26.879 --> 3:09:30.120 um and all all that kind of stuff has have 3:09:30.720 --> 3:09:33.600 Has there been like any outreach in terms of kind 3:09:33.600 --> 3:09:38.080 of addressing addressing people in small towns who like maybe 3:09:38.240 --> 3:09:41.000 used to like you know, rely on unlogging or something 3:09:41.280 --> 3:09:42.840 and how does how does that works? I know, like 3:09:42.879 --> 3:09:45.400 they'll be like, oh, but you people come from the 3:09:45.440 --> 3:09:47.080 city and now you're coming out here into like the 3:09:47.120 --> 3:09:49.360 woods where I live, and I think it's good that 3:09:49.440 --> 3:09:52.040 they're chopping down these trees. Right there's there's there's there's 3:09:52.080 --> 3:09:54.920 like that kind of that that kind of disconnection because again, 3:09:55.160 --> 3:09:57.280 no one, no one's immune to propaganda. You can you 3:09:57.360 --> 3:10:00.880 just you just just have to find the specific one. Um. See. 3:10:00.879 --> 3:10:03.039 I'm just curious about, like in terms of in terms 3:10:03.080 --> 3:10:05.160 of like forest defense, how often this comes up and 3:10:05.280 --> 3:10:08.360 how and how you kind of yeah, I don't know 3:10:08.720 --> 3:10:10.800 what's what steps to make to to be like to 3:10:10.920 --> 3:10:15.320 tell people, hey, maybe you're believe these things because timber 3:10:15.400 --> 3:10:18.600 industries told you them, Like how how how do you 3:10:18.640 --> 3:10:22.360 start that conversation with people? Yeah, this is like actually 3:10:22.840 --> 3:10:27.560 the heart of the forest defense work ahead, what you're 3:10:27.600 --> 3:10:30.360 talking about right now, the heart of our work ahead. Um. 3:10:30.520 --> 3:10:34.280 And I would also say, you know, there's a there's certainly, 3:10:34.840 --> 3:10:39.640 um a dichotomy that the media especially likes to present 3:10:39.760 --> 3:10:45.120 between the rural logging communities and you know, Portland or 3:10:45.160 --> 3:10:49.000 city based environmentalists and the hippie environmentalists to come in 3:10:49.200 --> 3:10:52.000 and yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, And everyone's familiar with 3:10:52.080 --> 3:10:54.520 that and there's of course some truth um to that, 3:10:54.680 --> 3:10:57.480 but I want to say, like super clearly, there are 3:10:57.720 --> 3:11:02.560 so many rural who do not support the logging industry, 3:11:02.600 --> 3:11:04.800 and so that's like a false dichotomy that gets presented 3:11:04.840 --> 3:11:06.680 to us right off the bat, and a lot of 3:11:06.760 --> 3:11:10.080 those you know, for in the in um the work 3:11:10.200 --> 3:11:14.080 that I've been doing on forest forest defense, essentially, we're 3:11:14.120 --> 3:11:17.480 always connecting with folks on the ground in literally the 3:11:17.520 --> 3:11:21.200 backyards of these logging proposals, and many of them are 3:11:21.320 --> 3:11:24.640 super uninterested in having their backyards clear cut. And so 3:11:24.840 --> 3:11:28.200 we you know, the we we pushed directly against that 3:11:28.320 --> 3:11:31.600 mythology that you know it's just environmentalists coming in from Portland, 3:11:31.680 --> 3:11:34.280 because we work directly with people, including for Brighton Bush, 3:11:34.360 --> 3:11:36.400 but with every single thing that we work on directly 3:11:36.440 --> 3:11:38.200 with people who are literally on the front lines of 3:11:38.280 --> 3:11:42.760 that logging. That said, there is absolutely um a huge 3:11:43.000 --> 3:11:46.720 pull um. You know Oregon specifically as you know, famous 3:11:46.760 --> 3:11:48.680 for logging. Like we talked about last time, there's a 3:11:48.959 --> 3:11:51.800 logger on top of the capitol. Um you know, are 3:11:51.920 --> 3:11:57.000 the mayor of Portland's logging money it's in Oregon's Oregonians 3:11:57.040 --> 3:12:03.879 black and for rural Oregonians. UM. There are economic realities 3:12:04.000 --> 3:12:09.119 where in some cases some counties benefit from UM logging 3:12:09.240 --> 3:12:12.000 in their total from the logging industry, their school you know, 3:12:12.160 --> 3:12:15.160 schools are tied to logging money UM. And there's you know, 3:12:15.840 --> 3:12:18.640 in a lot of ways, a narrative that is not 3:12:18.800 --> 3:12:22.160 really accurate anymore, but has like an element of nostalgia 3:12:22.200 --> 3:12:25.160 to it, like you know, logging towns and UM. This 3:12:25.360 --> 3:12:28.039 old story about how things used to work with small, 3:12:28.480 --> 3:12:32.560 small family logging. That's not how it is anymore, but 3:12:32.720 --> 3:12:36.440 that narrative that like nostalgic narrative, carries on into a 3:12:36.520 --> 3:12:38.600 lot of communities. And so what the way that I 3:12:38.720 --> 3:12:41.120 like to cut through that UM for people is by 3:12:41.200 --> 3:12:45.120 making it really clear that there's a difference between small 3:12:45.480 --> 3:12:49.080 you know, family loggers of lore UM and and you 3:12:49.160 --> 3:12:51.360 know of you know, people's what people are attached to 3:12:51.720 --> 3:12:54.000 and the kinds of what we're seeing today is we're 3:12:54.040 --> 3:12:58.600 looking at Wall Street logging. We're looking at Wall Street invested, 3:12:58.959 --> 3:13:04.720 UM invested huge you know corporate industries who owned who 3:13:04.879 --> 3:13:08.560 can who still own like you know, huge percentages of 3:13:08.600 --> 3:13:11.800 our drinking water sheds of our UM communities. Some some 3:13:11.920 --> 3:13:14.480 of the communities on the Coast are owned primarily by 3:13:14.560 --> 3:13:20.360 private industrial Wall Street funded UM logging corporations. And that's 3:13:20.480 --> 3:13:22.720 you know, those aren't mom and pop. They're not living 3:13:22.760 --> 3:13:25.280 in the community. They're living often not even on the 3:13:25.320 --> 3:13:30.279 Pacific Northwest. These are rich ass assholes who are destroying 3:13:30.800 --> 3:13:35.720 our bioregion. And you know, I think that making it 3:13:35.879 --> 3:13:39.600 clear that those aren't those folks are not like us. 3:13:39.760 --> 3:13:43.320 You know, those are not like rural Oregonians, your those 3:13:43.360 --> 3:13:45.720 are not your friends. Those are not you know, your 3:13:45.760 --> 3:13:48.920 pals or your neighbors. And just cutting through that narrative 3:13:49.000 --> 3:13:52.160 that like, oh, you know logging communities, Um, you know 3:13:52.240 --> 3:13:55.960 loggers are your friendly neighbor. Actually, no, loggers are Wall Street, um, 3:13:56.680 --> 3:14:00.320 you know investment corporations, rich money people who are doing 3:14:00.360 --> 3:14:04.119 this destruction. And just kind of like breaking that I guess, 3:14:04.200 --> 3:14:08.400 like that um, that attachment that people have to this idea, 3:14:08.480 --> 3:14:14.440 that's just not a reality anymore. The reality is that 3:14:15.480 --> 3:14:19.600 people who are for logging in rural communities are they 3:14:19.680 --> 3:14:21.760 have a lot more common with those of us who 3:14:21.800 --> 3:14:25.280 are fighting logging than the actual people doing the logging, 3:14:25.360 --> 3:14:27.760 if that makes sense. Like there's a lack of understanding 3:14:28.360 --> 3:14:31.080 of what the logging industry actually is it's like back 3:14:31.120 --> 3:14:33.640 to that nostalgia. Like people who are against logging in 3:14:33.760 --> 3:14:38.760 rural communities, um, you know, often genuinely do not realize 3:14:38.840 --> 3:14:41.800 that this is Wall Street and like who's doing this logging. 3:14:41.879 --> 3:14:44.080 They're still thinking it's their you know, neighbor or their 3:14:44.200 --> 3:14:46.720 friend and it's you know, these stories. But you know 3:14:46.879 --> 3:14:50.440 the reality is that, you know, this is corporate timber 3:14:50.520 --> 3:14:53.800 owners who are maximizing their financial gain by buying out 3:14:53.879 --> 3:14:57.280 small landowners all over the place, um ensuring that they 3:14:57.320 --> 3:15:00.760 aren't taxed by lobbying heavily in the government's so they 3:15:00.840 --> 3:15:03.080 don't you know, have any sort of taxation that then 3:15:03.160 --> 3:15:05.200 goes back to benefit our communities. Don't even get me 3:15:05.200 --> 3:15:07.720 started about how many taxes the timber industry skips out 3:15:07.760 --> 3:15:10.640 on that could actually benefit our communities and our schools 3:15:10.640 --> 3:15:13.840 and our libraries and our fire departments, but aren't. UM 3:15:14.120 --> 3:15:17.800 And then they're adopting exploitative labor practices. Basically, you know, 3:15:17.920 --> 3:15:21.280 the contracted workers who are in the logging industry right now, 3:15:21.320 --> 3:15:24.599 who are doing the logging and hauling UM and reforestation 3:15:24.760 --> 3:15:29.039 so called reforestation planting of mono crop plantations, they are 3:15:29.120 --> 3:15:33.320 experiencing flat wages and declining work quality conditions. Um. Meanwhile, 3:15:33.360 --> 3:15:36.800 while the corporate timber forms are expanding their profits um 3:15:37.200 --> 3:15:40.000 and you know, getting more wealthy investors. So that is 3:15:40.040 --> 3:15:43.840 the reality of the timber industry. These are not you know, 3:15:44.000 --> 3:15:47.879 your friendly neighborhood loggers anymore. So a few other points 3:15:47.879 --> 3:15:49.880 I wanted to bring up, kind of on force itself. 3:15:50.120 --> 3:15:54.920 Someone someone said something about how we talked about like 3:15:55.120 --> 3:15:58.400 old growth, and and I guess they think that we 3:15:58.520 --> 3:16:02.440 said that all forests in this area is old growth. 3:16:02.520 --> 3:16:04.680 And that's not something we actually said old growth. This 3:16:04.840 --> 3:16:08.280 is a specific term that means a specific thing. And yeah, 3:16:08.400 --> 3:16:10.640 regardless of it being old growth or not, they still 3:16:10.640 --> 3:16:13.800 shouldn't be cut down. I don't know. So I'm not 3:16:13.879 --> 3:16:15.840 sure why this point was really raised, because we didn't 3:16:16.120 --> 3:16:19.480 I did. I don't think we did, uh say that 3:16:19.560 --> 3:16:23.080 every that every tree there is old growth. Um. A 3:16:23.160 --> 3:16:25.720 lot of them were planted in the past few hundred years, UM. 3:16:26.000 --> 3:16:29.879 But that that doesn't mean like they're like much less important. 3:16:30.000 --> 3:16:32.400 It's like, just because they're not old growth doesn't mean 3:16:32.440 --> 3:16:35.960 we shouldn't be preserving this particular watershed in this particular 3:16:36.040 --> 3:16:38.520 environment and not be clear cutting all of it. Yeah, 3:16:38.600 --> 3:16:41.360 old growth is like, like the term old growth is 3:16:41.440 --> 3:16:44.160 just like become fetishized to me, and this like this 3:16:44.320 --> 3:16:46.280 thing that you know. This Also, let's be clear, that's 3:16:46.280 --> 3:16:48.720 not an agreement on what old growth actually means across 3:16:48.760 --> 3:16:52.240 the board, even between agencies, Like there's an arbitrary date 3:16:52.280 --> 3:16:55.680 cut off that the federal government uses to define old growth. Um. 3:16:55.720 --> 3:16:57.640 But obviously, if you walk into a forest stand, this 3:16:58.120 --> 3:17:01.720 a healthy you know, a healthy old growth stand is 3:17:02.320 --> 3:17:05.040 complex in terms of age diversity. There's going to be 3:17:05.120 --> 3:17:07.039 old growth individual trees, there's going to be a lot 3:17:07.080 --> 3:17:10.680 of younger trees, is going to be horizontal and vertical diversification. Like, 3:17:10.840 --> 3:17:13.960 old growth is complicated, it's messy. But the whole point 3:17:14.080 --> 3:17:16.640 is like you're right, like it doesn't actually matter if 3:17:16.720 --> 3:17:20.000 it's like quote in the CAD the small narrow category 3:17:20.120 --> 3:17:22.160 of what the Forest Service would define as old growth. 3:17:22.200 --> 3:17:24.480 If it's a forest that's been around for you know, 3:17:24.680 --> 3:17:27.240 a hundred years or even you know, I would argue, 3:17:27.280 --> 3:17:29.440 if it's a forest that's over like seventy or eighty 3:17:29.520 --> 3:17:32.600 years old, what are we doing cutting that down up? 3:17:34.080 --> 3:17:36.960 Especially now you know that's storing so much carbon safely 3:17:37.040 --> 3:17:38.920 in the ground, and also by that age, it's had 3:17:38.920 --> 3:17:43.160 the opportunity, you know, to to become more diverse than 3:17:43.240 --> 3:17:46.680 these like monocrop plantations that we're seeing younger forests. So 3:17:47.000 --> 3:17:50.119 I would argue any forest that's not a monocrop plantation, 3:17:50.240 --> 3:17:53.200 a young monocrop plantation, should absolutely not be clear cut. 3:17:53.280 --> 3:17:56.000 It's just an inappropriate activity to do in native forest. 3:17:56.080 --> 3:18:00.280 And speaking of a clear cut, there's another Another comment 3:18:00.480 --> 3:18:05.600 was about how clear cutting can sometimes be good because 3:18:05.720 --> 3:18:10.080 it creates new environments for other animals and living things 3:18:10.200 --> 3:18:13.520 to exist in. And I find this to be a 3:18:13.600 --> 3:18:17.120 really weird comment to make. Um, I don't. I don't 3:18:17.160 --> 3:18:22.400 quite understand this, this kind of idea, because yes, of course, 3:18:22.520 --> 3:18:25.040 if you cut down a forest, you are creating a 3:18:25.160 --> 3:18:29.160 new environment, but that's not where that environment should be, 3:18:29.440 --> 3:18:31.120 nor is it where it is. It's like if you 3:18:31.400 --> 3:18:34.280 if you erect a whole bunch of concrete skyscrapers where 3:18:34.280 --> 3:18:36.280 a force used to be. Yeah, you're also making a 3:18:36.320 --> 3:18:39.400 new environment. But I would say we probably shouldn't do that, 3:18:39.520 --> 3:18:41.160 though I don't. That's not that's not a good thing. 3:18:41.560 --> 3:18:43.120 The same thing with like the people obsessed with like 3:18:43.160 --> 3:18:46.080 putting solar panels in the desert, like the desert is 3:18:46.120 --> 3:18:49.160 an actual environment like it has there is reasons for 3:18:49.240 --> 3:18:52.720 why deserts need to exist and that have this whole 3:18:53.120 --> 3:18:56.520 like a whole like a whole whole environment and a 3:18:56.600 --> 3:19:00.400 whole um I forget the word, but like and as 3:19:00.440 --> 3:19:04.480 an entire system of living things that exist there. That 3:19:04.640 --> 3:19:08.960 should Um, we we don't need to terraform everything. I 3:19:09.000 --> 3:19:11.720 don't think that's like, I don't we shouldn't. I think 3:19:11.800 --> 3:19:15.280 preserving the environment in general, presuming the environments that are 3:19:15.520 --> 3:19:19.120 existing and who are creating like ecosystems, is a good thing. 3:19:19.480 --> 3:19:22.960 I think generally the less terraforming probably probably the better, 3:19:23.400 --> 3:19:25.920 at least right now, when we're being with a massive 3:19:26.120 --> 3:19:30.720 like looming climate crisis that's caused by US terraforming the earth. Um, 3:19:31.040 --> 3:19:34.000 maybe we should not do that as much. Yeah, we 3:19:34.000 --> 3:19:36.520 could call by the general role like no more terraforming, 3:19:36.600 --> 3:19:38.800 you'll just leave it. Let's just let's just leave us, 3:19:38.879 --> 3:19:42.440 let's leave us for a bit just as but for 3:19:42.600 --> 3:19:45.680 real though, whoever wrote that comment, I mean, that is 3:19:46.240 --> 3:19:49.480 a timber industry talking point that it's literally that is 3:19:49.560 --> 3:19:51.960 literally and whether they meant it or not, you know, 3:19:52.040 --> 3:19:54.039 this is how the timber industry gets us. They're real 3:19:54.120 --> 3:19:56.720 good at this. This is there, you know, nice sounding 3:19:56.800 --> 3:20:00.280 talking points that we rebut all the time, um, you know, 3:20:00.400 --> 3:20:03.720 not just in media but also in court. Um. And 3:20:03.879 --> 3:20:08.560 the talking point is clear cuts mimic natural disasters like 3:20:08.760 --> 3:20:12.960 severe fires by replacing you. And it's that they totally 3:20:13.080 --> 3:20:15.960 don't because it does not look at a clear cut. 3:20:16.080 --> 3:20:18.920 Go look at a fire. It's a completely different experience 3:20:18.920 --> 3:20:20.680 than I could go down that rabbit hole all day 3:20:20.760 --> 3:20:24.640 on fire ecology another time maybe, but suffice it's to say, 3:20:25.120 --> 3:20:29.440 you know, what they're arguing is that they're creating young 3:20:29.680 --> 3:20:33.280 forest or quote early several habitat by clear cutting an 3:20:33.320 --> 3:20:37.080 old forest. But what they're actually doing is deforestation. They're 3:20:37.120 --> 3:20:40.640 replacing an old forest with something that's not a forest, 3:20:40.959 --> 3:20:44.280 A young mono crop plantation is a crop. It is 3:20:44.360 --> 3:20:48.360 not a forest, and so they are deforesting, and um, 3:20:48.720 --> 3:20:53.880 it is ecosystem. It is ecoside, and it is it 3:20:54.440 --> 3:20:57.400 is egoside. And I think, yeah, the insistence that like 3:20:57.440 --> 3:20:59.720 it's it's good because it will allow some species to 3:21:00.600 --> 3:21:02.760 exist in this new environment, like yeah, but there's other 3:21:02.840 --> 3:21:04.680 environments where they can't exist, and we don't we don't 3:21:04.720 --> 3:21:07.119 need to be destroying the ones that are already kind 3:21:07.160 --> 3:21:09.760 of important and doing good stuff to make room for 3:21:09.879 --> 3:21:12.840 other ones that aren't already there. They argue that the 3:21:12.920 --> 3:21:15.240 deer and the butterflies love the clear cuts, and so 3:21:15.480 --> 3:21:18.240 just call that out as bullshit. Next time you'll hear that. It's, 3:21:18.320 --> 3:21:20.959 you know, spread the word that is some timber industry bs. 3:21:21.000 --> 3:21:22.760 They're tricksy, but don't let them get you. And the 3:21:23.520 --> 3:21:27.080 last thing I wanted to mention is why blocking off 3:21:27.120 --> 3:21:30.039 access to these areas is bad? Um, because I got 3:21:30.600 --> 3:21:35.760 someone someone said something like, um, you know, because fires 3:21:35.760 --> 3:21:39.600 are human caused, closing off public lands is it can 3:21:39.680 --> 3:21:42.600 be good because then fires someone gets hurt in those areas, 3:21:42.800 --> 3:21:47.000 And this really just misunderstands why fires get started. And 3:21:47.120 --> 3:21:49.840 also it's just a bad thing to do anyway, because 3:21:49.879 --> 3:21:51.960 like fire, if you look at like the map of 3:21:52.000 --> 3:21:55.400 where wildfires start, um, almost all of them are on 3:21:55.680 --> 3:21:59.720 the path of highways. Um. Specifically in California that when 3:21:59.800 --> 3:22:01.800 when the fires were really there was there was this 3:22:01.840 --> 3:22:04.920 firefighter who who made a great video about like why 3:22:05.120 --> 3:22:07.520 the fire line was all next to the highway, And 3:22:07.720 --> 3:22:10.840 there was like conspiracy theories of like including the antifa's 3:22:10.920 --> 3:22:13.840 driving down highways and setting the forest on fire, which 3:22:13.920 --> 3:22:16.520 was which was an actual popular talking point because we 3:22:16.560 --> 3:22:18.760 live in the hell world. Um, but like you know, 3:22:18.840 --> 3:22:20.760 he's explained like the reason why, Like they are like 3:22:21.000 --> 3:22:23.720 human caused, but they're not, like a lot of them 3:22:23.720 --> 3:22:26.320 aren't intentionally caused. It's because that's where power lines run, 3:22:26.640 --> 3:22:28.840 and this is where a lot of sparks can ignite 3:22:28.840 --> 3:22:32.119 stuff on the edges of of of highways that will 3:22:32.160 --> 3:22:34.320 then take out part of the forest. Now, every once 3:22:34.320 --> 3:22:36.560 in a while there's a gender reveal party that goes 3:22:36.600 --> 3:22:39.240 horribly wrong and does and and does ignite it. That 3:22:39.520 --> 3:22:41.440 is true, and I think the solution to that is 3:22:41.680 --> 3:22:45.360 not closing down the forest. It's not having gender reveal 3:22:45.440 --> 3:22:51.280 parties that we stopped selling uh on Amazon. I'm all 3:22:51.320 --> 3:22:53.800 thor Tanna right as an idea, But how about let's 3:22:53.800 --> 3:22:57.200 stop selling blue and pink Tanna right packets to people 3:22:57.200 --> 3:23:00.880 who don't know how to use explosives genuinely don't know 3:23:00.959 --> 3:23:02.680 about because yeah, like they're not they're not actually using 3:23:02.720 --> 3:23:04.440 tanna right for what it's meant for, and they're not 3:23:04.560 --> 3:23:07.720 using it to do like like training, Um, they're using 3:23:07.800 --> 3:23:09.840 it to say that they're having a baby, and this 3:23:09.920 --> 3:23:12.840 has caused a lot of wildfire death. So how how 3:23:12.879 --> 3:23:17.800 about we just stopped selling uh the gender reveal party bombs. 3:23:18.560 --> 3:23:20.760 I think that'd be a better solution than closing down 3:23:21.200 --> 3:23:25.760 massive swaths of public land. And how about our power 3:23:25.840 --> 3:23:29.960 line companies get their ship together and stop. Do actually 3:23:30.080 --> 3:23:33.280 have a plan for planned power shut offs? And actually, 3:23:33.440 --> 3:23:36.640 you know, we know now actually Pacific Corps is in 3:23:37.360 --> 3:23:40.680 court right now because they started the Santiam fires. Their 3:23:40.720 --> 3:23:43.440 power lines started the Santa Inspires and the Archie Creek 3:23:43.480 --> 3:23:46.640 fires and probably more. And so yeah, how about the 3:23:46.680 --> 3:23:48.879 power line companies get their ships together? But I feel 3:23:48.920 --> 3:23:51.320 like the other huge thing here is that, you know, 3:23:51.440 --> 3:23:53.840 the suggestion that we should close off these forests to 3:23:53.879 --> 3:23:58.720 the public, to me is just like more uh you know, 3:23:59.240 --> 3:24:02.520 it's you know, blatantly it's racist, um, and it's you know, 3:24:02.680 --> 3:24:06.920 I think it's wrong because these lands, these belong to 3:24:07.120 --> 3:24:10.000 Indigenous people. We should be giving these lands back to 3:24:10.160 --> 3:24:12.640 indigenous people. And think, you know, when we're talking about 3:24:12.720 --> 3:24:16.160 like rural communities too, in adjust transition, like rural community 3:24:16.240 --> 3:24:19.040 members should actually have more say in what happens in 3:24:19.080 --> 3:24:21.600 their backyard. Forests should be able to be more engaged 3:24:22.000 --> 3:24:24.800 UM in you know, the forests that literally provide them 3:24:24.840 --> 3:24:27.720 with their drinking water, UM, and you know all of 3:24:27.760 --> 3:24:31.080 the things that they need, um to survive. So we 3:24:31.120 --> 3:24:33.080 should not be you know, locking off these lands and 3:24:33.160 --> 3:24:36.119 keeping humans out. Humans have a place in these lands. 3:24:36.240 --> 3:24:38.360 I've always had a place in a role in these lands, 3:24:38.680 --> 3:24:40.640 and um, if we take leadership from the right folks, 3:24:40.680 --> 3:24:42.760 then we could totally live in a much more reasonable 3:24:42.760 --> 3:24:45.640 way than the gender revealed party path. Yeah, and like 3:24:46.160 --> 3:24:48.360 I don't know if you know this, but like being 3:24:48.400 --> 3:24:51.800 in the forest is great. It's like it is great 3:24:51.920 --> 3:24:55.800 to be surrounded by giant trees. It makes you feel awesome. 3:24:56.800 --> 3:24:59.080 The last thing I want to talk about is um 3:25:00.000 --> 3:25:03.240 you you mentioned before, like getting people who live in 3:25:03.320 --> 3:25:06.040 these rural areas who used to rely on logging, getting 3:25:06.040 --> 3:25:08.160 them are involved and doing a just transition, because this 3:25:08.240 --> 3:25:09.920 is a topic that comes out that comes up on 3:25:10.000 --> 3:25:12.480 climate change like everywhere in terms of like you know, 3:25:12.640 --> 3:25:15.480 like countries that are still developing not being able to 3:25:15.560 --> 3:25:17.680 have access to the same amount of fossil fuels that 3:25:17.800 --> 3:25:21.080 countries like the States you know had when they when 3:25:21.360 --> 3:25:23.960 when they were developing, and like how is that fair? Right? 3:25:24.240 --> 3:25:25.840 This this is like, this is a very common thing 3:25:25.920 --> 3:25:28.560 of in terms of countries that are better off. UM, 3:25:29.000 --> 3:25:31.680 need will you know, have kind of kind of like 3:25:31.720 --> 3:25:35.000 a duty to assist assist countries that are trying to 3:25:35.080 --> 3:25:37.840 develop and trying to get better standards of living. Um, 3:25:38.879 --> 3:25:41.040 because we profited off the fossil fuels and now they 3:25:41.080 --> 3:25:43.400 won't have the same opportunity if we're trying to you know, 3:25:43.760 --> 3:25:47.119 get to a carbon neutral world. UM. So in terms 3:25:47.160 --> 3:25:49.240 of like a just just transition, this is something like 3:25:49.320 --> 3:25:51.480 you know, a COP twenty six there was supposed to 3:25:51.520 --> 3:25:55.520 be funding for adaptation efforts in in the developing countries. 3:25:55.600 --> 3:25:57.680 Now that failed because of course it did. It's COP 3:25:57.760 --> 3:25:59.520 twenty six. But in terms of like, in terms of 3:25:59.600 --> 3:26:02.440 like this idea of a just transition, how do you 3:26:02.480 --> 3:26:05.800 see this like locally in the rural environment within the 3:26:05.879 --> 3:26:08.400 States and for for like these types of areas, because like, yeah, 3:26:08.400 --> 3:26:11.720 because it's similar to like coal mining the towns, similar 3:26:11.840 --> 3:26:15.720 to you know, logging towns. How how does how do 3:26:15.760 --> 3:26:18.400 you see this working? Yeah? This is something I think 3:26:18.440 --> 3:26:21.400 about so much. UM. And we actually put out a 3:26:21.480 --> 3:26:23.440 platform called a Green New Deal for our Forests in 3:26:23.480 --> 3:26:25.720 the Pacific Northwest that talks like all about what a 3:26:25.800 --> 3:26:28.320 just transition could look like for communities. But I mean, 3:26:28.440 --> 3:26:30.680 this is a dream, and I think it's like a 3:26:30.760 --> 3:26:34.240 really inspiring uh inspiring path forward because what it means 3:26:34.360 --> 3:26:36.480 is that, you know, we're not saying to end logging, 3:26:36.520 --> 3:26:39.360 and we're not saying that rural communities basically need to 3:26:39.440 --> 3:26:41.760 like stop existing and getting funding from logging. What we're 3:26:41.760 --> 3:26:45.519 saying is that rural community members, what we that nostalgic 3:26:45.640 --> 3:26:47.959 dream that are that people are playing to, we actually 3:26:48.040 --> 3:26:50.480 want to have something in that regard. We would like 3:26:50.680 --> 3:26:54.360 people to you know, engage with and interact with their 3:26:54.440 --> 3:26:56.840 local forests. Now that shouldn't look like clear cutting them, 3:26:57.200 --> 3:27:01.320 because um, that's irresponsible and that doesn't unefit local communities 3:27:01.560 --> 3:27:03.960 or you know, the benefit of future. But that could 3:27:04.040 --> 3:27:08.480 look like restoring these young mono crop plantations into complex, 3:27:08.520 --> 3:27:11.400 healthy forests. It could be looked like bringing fire back 3:27:11.480 --> 3:27:14.720 onto the landscape with prescribed fire and cultural burning, taking 3:27:14.800 --> 3:27:17.520 lessons from indigenous folks who are doing network um. It 3:27:17.600 --> 3:27:21.640 could look like education and recreation and so many things 3:27:21.720 --> 3:27:25.039 of like you know, hands on engagement with backyard forests 3:27:25.080 --> 3:27:28.000 that surround us um and you know that that could 3:27:28.040 --> 3:27:32.840 look like basically firing the freddies and uh taking this 3:27:33.040 --> 3:27:36.480 land and giving it to local communities with um, you 3:27:36.560 --> 3:27:40.280 know the with with conservation goals but also goals to 3:27:40.760 --> 3:27:44.320 economically support by all of those ways you know, jobs 3:27:44.440 --> 3:27:49.160 but also jobs and recreation, UM economically support local communities. 3:27:49.200 --> 3:27:52.080 So basically giving the land back to the local communities 3:27:52.120 --> 3:27:55.040 who rely on them and giving them power and control 3:27:55.480 --> 3:27:57.680 UM to care for them in ways that makes sense 3:27:57.920 --> 3:28:00.200 because right now, while streets caring for our four us 3:28:00.400 --> 3:28:03.480 and really it should be us. And I think one 3:28:03.520 --> 3:28:05.840 other thing on this topic, for like how how well 3:28:06.080 --> 3:28:09.680 propagando works when I was UM at the stop line 3:28:09.760 --> 3:28:13.480 three purchase camps last summer in terms of like how 3:28:13.560 --> 3:28:16.960 do corporations get towns to start supporting these ideas and 3:28:17.000 --> 3:28:20.600 how do they like foster this hatred of environmentalism um, 3:28:21.040 --> 3:28:23.560 despite you know, these areas often being the worst impact 3:28:23.680 --> 3:28:26.720 one of the worst impacted ones by these like effort efforts. 3:28:26.840 --> 3:28:29.800 Right uh, you know you're they're chopping down forests near 3:28:29.959 --> 3:28:32.760 where this town is. Pipeline is going next to the town. 3:28:33.080 --> 3:28:35.480 If it leaks, it's going to cause all this problem 3:28:35.560 --> 3:28:38.240 to like their water spline stuff. But like how they do. 3:28:38.280 --> 3:28:41.240 It's like the day of the direct action to block 3:28:41.280 --> 3:28:45.440 off the pipeline, Enbridge was sponsoring like a town fair 3:28:45.680 --> 3:28:48.800 in like the little downtown area, and it's like this 3:28:49.000 --> 3:28:52.120 super surreal moment of being like, oh, this is like 3:28:52.600 --> 3:28:56.400 I've read this happened in like comics before, Like this 3:28:56.560 --> 3:28:58.400 this is like this is like one of Lex Luthor's 3:28:58.480 --> 3:29:01.400 favorite things to do. Hell like like go into this 3:29:01.520 --> 3:29:04.440 like small town. Who's gonna start like this evil you know, 3:29:04.800 --> 3:29:08.240 evil like uh like lab At and he'll like fund 3:29:08.360 --> 3:29:11.280 like this small town event thing and like I've like 3:29:11.560 --> 3:29:14.920 seen this before in so many superhero comics, Like I've 3:29:14.959 --> 3:29:17.160 seen this trope and that I'm just like living it. 3:29:17.280 --> 3:29:19.920 You're just like watching it happen. You're like driving past 3:29:20.000 --> 3:29:23.400 the town to go block up pipeline and then you 3:29:23.480 --> 3:29:25.760 see like Enbridge with like a little stage and like 3:29:25.840 --> 3:29:28.120 a little like fair and like everyone in the towns 3:29:28.160 --> 3:29:30.040 like dancing and they're giving out like free drinks and 3:29:30.160 --> 3:29:34.840 like oh no, like this is yeah, Like you're you're 3:29:34.879 --> 3:29:36.920 like living the things like you know, a lot of it. 3:29:36.959 --> 3:29:40.359 It's about like this idea of like rein like reinvigorating 3:29:40.440 --> 3:29:43.080 like like you know, like the like the spirit of 3:29:43.120 --> 3:29:45.880 the town and injecting injecting new life into it. So 3:29:45.959 --> 3:29:47.320 like you know, this this is like a new one 3:29:47.400 --> 3:29:49.440 for like they're they're putting a pipeline down, but like, 3:29:49.520 --> 3:29:50.760 you know, it's the same thing for like you know, 3:29:50.879 --> 3:29:54.640 old like old cold towns, old logging towns, and these 3:29:54.640 --> 3:29:57.400 corporations will come in, you know, make the town more 3:29:57.480 --> 3:29:59.640 active again, start putting on events, make it feel like 3:29:59.680 --> 3:30:02.160 more of a place. And then that that gets so 3:30:02.480 --> 3:30:06.280 the company gets associated with positive changes. Right, so then 3:30:06.280 --> 3:30:08.080 people who live in towns like, oh yeah, and we're 3:30:08.080 --> 3:30:10.400 just doing all these good things for my town. That 3:30:10.520 --> 3:30:12.920 must mean they actually, you know, are gonna care about 3:30:13.000 --> 3:30:15.320 us here and then help and help us out. Meanwhile, 3:30:15.400 --> 3:30:17.760 these people from all around the country are driving through 3:30:17.840 --> 3:30:20.280 and trying to block the pipeline, and the police are 3:30:20.320 --> 3:30:23.760 driving everywhere. Now it's all this chaos, right, these stupid environmentalists, 3:30:23.840 --> 3:30:25.840 they don't understand how this is gonna you know, it's 3:30:25.920 --> 3:30:28.400 it's we're creating so many jobs here, which actually didn't. 3:30:28.520 --> 3:30:30.680 Enbridge outsourced most of the jobs out of state, but 3:30:31.040 --> 3:30:33.040 they lied about the type of job creation. You know, 3:30:33.120 --> 3:30:35.440 all all all all this type of stuff, and this 3:30:35.640 --> 3:30:39.440 is a very very common thing totally, and like timber 3:30:39.560 --> 3:30:43.400 unity is like delivering would to people when the when 3:30:43.480 --> 3:30:45.640 when the snow storm happened and everyone was cold and 3:30:45.680 --> 3:30:47.640 didn't have power, and they were you know, going door 3:30:47.720 --> 3:30:51.280 to door with mutual aid support. Um. But that is 3:30:51.360 --> 3:30:54.760 why you know, a remember how everyone should remember how 3:30:54.959 --> 3:30:57.920 how tricks e and how dishonest these folks are. But 3:30:58.000 --> 3:31:00.960 also be why um, those of us who want to 3:31:01.040 --> 3:31:03.480 see a different way need to be doing mutual aid too, 3:31:03.920 --> 3:31:06.119 Like we actually need to be out there in our 3:31:06.160 --> 3:31:08.840 communities and making friends and building trust and not just 3:31:08.920 --> 3:31:11.600 showing up to function up when it's time to function up. 3:31:11.840 --> 3:31:13.440 And I think that kind of like circles back to 3:31:13.520 --> 3:31:15.720 the point we talked about earlier, which is like building 3:31:15.760 --> 3:31:18.360 relationships with people on the front lines. Um, looks like 3:31:18.480 --> 3:31:20.640 so much more than just like the defense of a 3:31:20.720 --> 3:31:22.840 bad thing in their backyards. It looks like, you know, 3:31:23.000 --> 3:31:26.320 mutual aid because the industry is doing it, um and 3:31:26.560 --> 3:31:30.640 they're they're good at it, and we need to be better. Um. 3:31:30.760 --> 3:31:32.480 I think that wraps it up for us today. I 3:31:32.520 --> 3:31:34.200 just what one thing I want to mention is like, 3:31:34.560 --> 3:31:37.160 what what is going to happen going forward? Now? After this, 3:31:37.480 --> 3:31:40.800 after this legal victory, what's kind of just just just 3:31:40.959 --> 3:31:42.720 just just just so people know, like what is like 3:31:42.760 --> 3:31:44.240 the next steps that are going to be taken on 3:31:44.280 --> 3:31:46.480 the legal process that will kind of determine what what 3:31:46.640 --> 3:31:49.840 happens UM with like you know, direct actions and going 3:31:49.879 --> 3:31:53.720 to see the forest in like in the future. Yeah, UM, Well, 3:31:53.760 --> 3:31:57.280 basically we're waiting UM for a date for this court 3:31:57.360 --> 3:32:00.200 case UM, and so that will hopefully be scheduled if 3:32:00.200 --> 3:32:01.800 it if it ends up having to go through, which 3:32:01.800 --> 3:32:03.920 it might not. UM. Obviously it is going to be 3:32:03.959 --> 3:32:07.440 an effort made on behalf of lawyers UM to try 3:32:07.560 --> 3:32:09.840 and get the Force service to just stop, to just 3:32:10.040 --> 3:32:13.360 drop this to Nanigan UM and walk away UM while 3:32:13.440 --> 3:32:16.040 they're you know where they're at. Because we we do 3:32:16.160 --> 3:32:18.200 think we have a really strong case UM that will 3:32:18.240 --> 3:32:20.400 win in court if it goes to court. So that's 3:32:20.480 --> 3:32:23.040 kind of like the legal avenue UM. Same story as 3:32:23.080 --> 3:32:25.200 what I said with the last time we talked. You know, 3:32:25.360 --> 3:32:29.400 if if logging is going to move forward in that area, 3:32:29.480 --> 3:32:32.680 whether that be because UM it happens in the future 3:32:32.800 --> 3:32:36.280 or because somehow this legal case is lost, direct action 3:32:36.360 --> 3:32:38.880 will happen. People will be out there in the way 3:32:38.959 --> 3:32:41.120 of logging. There's no way people are going to let 3:32:41.200 --> 3:32:43.400 that go down in the Brighton Bush community. UM. So 3:32:43.600 --> 3:32:45.879 right now we're kind of in a waiting game. We're 3:32:45.920 --> 3:32:48.520 watching and waiting. UM, but you know, I hope the 3:32:48.560 --> 3:32:50.879 four Service knows now that they can't just get get 3:32:50.879 --> 3:32:53.680 away with stuff like this. People are watching, UM, people 3:32:53.720 --> 3:32:56.320 are going to file public records request. We're documenting this 3:32:56.800 --> 3:32:59.200 and UM hopefully you know, we won't be seeing more 3:32:59.200 --> 3:33:01.160 of this, but because we live in the real world, 3:33:01.200 --> 3:33:03.360 the real sad world, we will be seeing more of this, 3:33:03.640 --> 3:33:06.080 and so, UM, you know, we'll be out there again 3:33:06.200 --> 3:33:08.360 when the next forest is on the chopping block, which 3:33:08.440 --> 3:33:12.480 is probably going to be you know, today, tomorrow. Yeah, 3:33:12.560 --> 3:33:15.280 it's kind of always the thing. UM. Well, thank thank 3:33:15.320 --> 3:33:16.800 you so much for coming on to talk about this 3:33:17.000 --> 3:33:21.959 and the uh rare rare good news episode of Hey 3:33:22.120 --> 3:33:27.680 something good happened. Thank you. Thanks. In any of these sources, 3:33:27.760 --> 3:33:30.560 people can kind of follow along on the fight that 3:33:30.680 --> 3:33:34.720 the people can find online. Yeah, make sure to follow 3:33:34.800 --> 3:33:37.840 Cascadia Forest Offenders and Portland Rising Tide um who will 3:33:37.840 --> 3:33:41.080 be definitely tracking and posting. You can also follow Cascadia Wildlands, 3:33:41.120 --> 3:33:44.400 who um was the lead nonprofit on the lawsuit and 3:33:44.680 --> 3:33:48.000 they've been posting about it too. Great. All right, thanks 3:33:48.040 --> 3:34:04.400 everybody for listening. Uh go see a tree, touch tree. Yeah. Hey, 3:34:04.520 --> 3:34:07.600 we'll be back Monday with more episodes every week from 3:34:07.640 --> 3:34:10.400 now until the heat death of the Universe. It Could 3:34:10.440 --> 3:34:12.760 Happen Here is a production of cool Zone Media. For 3:34:12.879 --> 3:34:15.640 more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website cool 3:34:15.680 --> 3:34:17.640 zone media dot com, or check us out on the 3:34:17.680 --> 3:34:20.360 I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen 3:34:20.400 --> 3:34:23.360 to podcasts. You can find sources for It Could Happen Here, 3:34:23.440 --> 3:34:26.840 updated monthly at cool zone Media dot com slash sources. 3:34:27.120 --> 3:34:27.879 Thanks for listening.