1 00:00:00,080 --> 00:00:02,520 Speaker 1: Hey, everybody, Robert Evans here and I wanted to let 2 00:00:02,520 --> 00:00:06,199 Speaker 1: you know this is a compilation episode. So every episode 3 00:00:06,320 --> 00:00:09,400 Speaker 1: of the week that just happened is here in one 4 00:00:09,520 --> 00:00:13,239 Speaker 1: convenient and with somewhat less ads package for you to 5 00:00:13,320 --> 00:00:15,800 Speaker 1: listen to in a long stretch if you want. If 6 00:00:15,800 --> 00:00:17,720 Speaker 1: you've been listening to the episodes every day this week, 7 00:00:17,800 --> 00:00:19,959 Speaker 1: there's gonna be nothing new here for you, but you 8 00:00:19,960 --> 00:00:27,440 Speaker 1: can make your own decisions. Welcome to it could happen here, 9 00:00:27,480 --> 00:00:30,000 Speaker 1: a podcast about things falling apart, how they came to 10 00:00:30,040 --> 00:00:33,160 Speaker 1: be that way. I'm your host, Christopher Wong, and today 11 00:00:33,200 --> 00:00:36,919 Speaker 1: we're doing part three of our series of Neoliberalism. We're 12 00:00:36,920 --> 00:00:39,279 Speaker 1: gonna start today with one of the most famous episodes 13 00:00:39,320 --> 00:00:44,200 Speaker 1: in history of neoliberalism. September eleventh three Coup against Salat 14 00:00:44,240 --> 00:00:48,080 Speaker 1: or Ende was a democratic socialist of a type that 15 00:00:48,080 --> 00:00:51,440 Speaker 1: has broadly ceased to exist today. A committed Marxist to 16 00:00:51,479 --> 00:00:54,240 Speaker 1: believe that class of society could be created by means 17 00:00:54,240 --> 00:00:58,240 Speaker 1: of electoral democracy, he embarked on a campaign drastically more 18 00:00:58,320 --> 00:01:01,600 Speaker 1: radical than any modern social politician has done, more than 19 00:01:01,720 --> 00:01:05,319 Speaker 1: dream of mass nationalizations, in an attempt to develop a 20 00:01:05,319 --> 00:01:08,280 Speaker 1: technical system that would allow the government to democratically plan 21 00:01:08,360 --> 00:01:12,400 Speaker 1: as much of the economy as humanly possible. In part 22 00:01:12,600 --> 00:01:15,600 Speaker 1: his hand was forced by Chile's workers who had embarked 23 00:01:15,600 --> 00:01:19,040 Speaker 1: on their own unsanctioned campaign of takeovers of minds and factories, 24 00:01:19,440 --> 00:01:21,759 Speaker 1: which I Andy disapproved of and now sought to bring 25 00:01:21,800 --> 00:01:25,240 Speaker 1: under the national planning scheme. To do this, he brought 26 00:01:25,240 --> 00:01:29,800 Speaker 1: in British cybernetics theorists Stanford Beer, who embarked on an 27 00:01:29,800 --> 00:01:33,400 Speaker 1: operation called Project Cybersend to collect and coordinate information between 28 00:01:33,480 --> 00:01:37,039 Speaker 1: various factories and allow democratic planning at the ground level 29 00:01:37,040 --> 00:01:40,520 Speaker 1: in a way that would allow stantaneous reaction to crises 30 00:01:40,560 --> 00:01:43,440 Speaker 1: and immediate changes in production levels and conditions inside the 31 00:01:43,440 --> 00:01:47,000 Speaker 1: factories themselves to deal with them. All End, for all 32 00:01:47,040 --> 00:01:50,560 Speaker 1: of s. Bark's credentials, was fiercely critical of the bureaucratization 33 00:01:50,640 --> 00:01:53,160 Speaker 1: of the U. S s R, and, in particular in 34 00:01:53,200 --> 00:01:56,440 Speaker 1: the economic sphere, the way it's planning systems were essentially 35 00:01:56,480 --> 00:01:59,320 Speaker 1: unable to react to local changes quickly in a context 36 00:01:59,680 --> 00:02:03,520 Speaker 1: where plans were only created every five years. Cybersen would 37 00:02:03,520 --> 00:02:06,400 Speaker 1: solve these problems by workers participation at the factory level 38 00:02:06,440 --> 00:02:10,720 Speaker 1: and constant updated data flows to the planning office. As 39 00:02:10,720 --> 00:02:14,640 Speaker 1: the project went on, Beer became progressively more radical. Strike 40 00:02:14,720 --> 00:02:17,000 Speaker 1: by right wing truck workers backed by capitalists in the 41 00:02:17,040 --> 00:02:20,480 Speaker 1: CIA in nineteen two threatened to grind the nation to 42 00:02:20,520 --> 00:02:25,560 Speaker 1: a halt. In response, workers formed enormous cordonas industrialities or 43 00:02:25,560 --> 00:02:29,239 Speaker 1: industrial belts to help self organized production and bypass the 44 00:02:29,280 --> 00:02:32,720 Speaker 1: striking right wing workers. In coordination with the Andia's government 45 00:02:32,760 --> 00:02:35,160 Speaker 1: and a new cybers in control room, they were able 46 00:02:35,200 --> 00:02:38,000 Speaker 1: to outmaneuver the strike and maintain production and distribution and 47 00:02:38,120 --> 00:02:41,320 Speaker 1: nearly full capacity by tracking where goods were going and 48 00:02:41,320 --> 00:02:44,760 Speaker 1: where they needed to go along what roots. Beer rapidly 49 00:02:44,800 --> 00:02:48,359 Speaker 1: became convinced that quote the basic answer of cybermntics the 50 00:02:48,440 --> 00:02:51,360 Speaker 1: question of how the system should be organized is that 51 00:02:51,440 --> 00:02:56,080 Speaker 1: it ought to organize itself, in essence that Cyberson should 52 00:02:56,080 --> 00:02:58,400 Speaker 1: be used to eliminate the bureaucracy in the state entirely 53 00:02:58,440 --> 00:03:02,560 Speaker 1: and allow workers to directly or nights production themselves. Now, 54 00:03:03,520 --> 00:03:06,520 Speaker 1: Cyberson in theory is what the near a libals claim, 55 00:03:06,560 --> 00:03:09,520 Speaker 1: at least in public, to want, is an anti bureaucratic 56 00:03:09,560 --> 00:03:11,840 Speaker 1: system that uses the centralized control over the means of 57 00:03:11,840 --> 00:03:15,040 Speaker 1: production to combat totalitarianism and ensure that the state respects 58 00:03:15,040 --> 00:03:18,919 Speaker 1: individual rights and liberties. In fact, as a Vengi Motoro's 59 00:03:19,040 --> 00:03:21,760 Speaker 1: put it, Pierre and Hyak knew each other, as Beer 60 00:03:21,880 --> 00:03:25,000 Speaker 1: noted in his diary. Hyak even complimented him on his 61 00:03:25,080 --> 00:03:27,880 Speaker 1: vision for the cybernetic factory after Beer presented at a 62 00:03:27,960 --> 00:03:31,799 Speaker 1: conference in the nineteen in Illinois. So, naturally, when the 63 00:03:31,840 --> 00:03:34,400 Speaker 1: system was actually implemented, at least in part in Chile, 64 00:03:34,920 --> 00:03:37,280 Speaker 1: the new liberal position was that every single person involved 65 00:03:37,280 --> 00:03:40,720 Speaker 1: in the entire economic bearment needed to be killed. Chile 66 00:03:40,880 --> 00:03:43,640 Speaker 1: was put under economic blockade by the US and multinational 67 00:03:43,680 --> 00:03:47,920 Speaker 1: corporations with full neilerable support, an ironic position given Milton Friedman, 68 00:03:48,080 --> 00:03:51,480 Speaker 1: Hyak and Rope case pure and absolute opposition to economic 69 00:03:51,480 --> 00:03:55,440 Speaker 1: blockades of South Africa. Rhodesia to its eternal shame. The 70 00:03:55,440 --> 00:03:57,800 Speaker 1: a f l c i O s American Institute for 71 00:03:57,840 --> 00:04:00,480 Speaker 1: Free Labor Development provided training and fun to the right 72 00:04:00,520 --> 00:04:03,840 Speaker 1: wing unions that opposed the leftist government and others across 73 00:04:03,880 --> 00:04:07,800 Speaker 1: Latin America. In Chile, working directly with the CIA, the 74 00:04:07,840 --> 00:04:09,920 Speaker 1: a f l c i OS organizations to train the 75 00:04:09,960 --> 00:04:12,560 Speaker 1: right wing truckers. Here's nineteen seventy two strike we've already 76 00:04:12,560 --> 00:04:15,080 Speaker 1: discussed and he's nineteen seventy three strike would pave the 77 00:04:15,080 --> 00:04:19,679 Speaker 1: way for Pinochet's coup. In many cases, organized labor, especially 78 00:04:19,680 --> 00:04:22,760 Speaker 1: in the US, but also in places like Italy, spent 79 00:04:22,800 --> 00:04:25,640 Speaker 1: the seventies battling their own left flank in defensive capital. 80 00:04:26,960 --> 00:04:29,280 Speaker 1: The reward for their services was capital turning around and 81 00:04:29,320 --> 00:04:32,560 Speaker 1: dutting them like a fish. In the eighties two fought 82 00:04:32,560 --> 00:04:34,880 Speaker 1: a series of battles with his left flank. Disarming the 83 00:04:34,880 --> 00:04:37,280 Speaker 1: mass workers assemblies that had formed in nineteen seventy two 84 00:04:37,279 --> 00:04:40,120 Speaker 1: could have saved him from the coup. The results was 85 00:04:40,160 --> 00:04:43,400 Speaker 1: the other nine eleven, on which day in nineteen seventy three, 86 00:04:43,440 --> 00:04:46,320 Speaker 1: the military overthrew Allende and a coup, and Allen shot 87 00:04:46,360 --> 00:04:49,520 Speaker 1: himself in the presidential palace. The man who would emerge 88 00:04:49,520 --> 00:04:51,520 Speaker 1: on the top of the power struggle in the military 89 00:04:51,560 --> 00:04:55,440 Speaker 1: at the end of the coup was one Augusto Pinochet. Now. 90 00:04:55,600 --> 00:04:58,200 Speaker 1: Pinochet from the beginning had the support of Chile's own 91 00:04:58,279 --> 00:05:01,559 Speaker 1: domestic neo liberals, which they were a fairly large number. 92 00:05:02,160 --> 00:05:04,360 Speaker 1: Upon taking power, he carried out what would become the 93 00:05:04,360 --> 00:05:09,560 Speaker 1: standard neoliberal program, returning nationalized industries to the capitalists, eliminating 94 00:05:09,560 --> 00:05:13,720 Speaker 1: price controls, and increasing interest rates, but full scale neoliberalism 95 00:05:13,800 --> 00:05:18,440 Speaker 1: didn't come immediately. Inflation, which Pinochet had nominally in large 96 00:05:18,480 --> 00:05:22,760 Speaker 1: part taken power to control, continued unabated, and in nineteen 97 00:05:22,800 --> 00:05:25,560 Speaker 1: seventy four Milton Friedman arrived in Chile to argue for 98 00:05:25,640 --> 00:05:29,760 Speaker 1: neoliberal shock therapy. But it wasn't until Pinochet's desperation from 99 00:05:29,800 --> 00:05:31,320 Speaker 1: money drove him to the i m F that he 100 00:05:31,320 --> 00:05:35,160 Speaker 1: would fully embrace neoliberalism. Most of the world had refused 101 00:05:35,200 --> 00:05:37,640 Speaker 1: to do business with new dictatorial regime, with the exception 102 00:05:37,640 --> 00:05:40,680 Speaker 1: of the U S and oddly enough MAOS China, which 103 00:05:40,760 --> 00:05:44,320 Speaker 1: poured money into the regime and Pinochet's personal pockets. But 104 00:05:44,400 --> 00:05:47,520 Speaker 1: that money was insufficient, and the i m F was 105 00:05:47,560 --> 00:05:49,800 Speaker 1: the only remaining body who would actually lend money to 106 00:05:49,839 --> 00:05:54,000 Speaker 1: Pinochet without any requirements on improving Chile's at this point 107 00:05:54,000 --> 00:05:57,599 Speaker 1: of bismo human rights record, much of the full neoliberal 108 00:05:57,640 --> 00:06:00,000 Speaker 1: turn that hit Chile in nineteen seventy five came from 109 00:06:00,120 --> 00:06:03,960 Speaker 1: demands from the I m F itself, who demanded terconian 110 00:06:04,000 --> 00:06:07,680 Speaker 1: measures to control inflation. Here, Pinochet was aided by the 111 00:06:07,680 --> 00:06:11,279 Speaker 1: support of the neoliberals, whose legitimacy and academic standing allowed 112 00:06:11,320 --> 00:06:13,800 Speaker 1: them to negotiate and secure favor from the I m F, 113 00:06:13,839 --> 00:06:17,039 Speaker 1: which they had already begun to infiltrate. At this point, 114 00:06:17,080 --> 00:06:20,720 Speaker 1: the infamous Chicago Boys, economist trains at the University of 115 00:06:20,760 --> 00:06:23,720 Speaker 1: Chicago by Milton Friedman, were put in charge of the economy. 116 00:06:24,200 --> 00:06:27,760 Speaker 1: University of Chicago trained economist Sergio di Castro, known as 117 00:06:27,760 --> 00:06:29,800 Speaker 1: the Pinochet of the Economy, was put in charge of 118 00:06:29,800 --> 00:06:33,799 Speaker 1: the Ministry of Economics. The Castro privatized an enormous portion 119 00:06:33,839 --> 00:06:37,760 Speaker 1: of the remaining profitable state industries, eliminated tariffs and implemented 120 00:06:37,800 --> 00:06:41,400 Speaker 1: free trade policies, deregulated the finance sector, and eliminated any 121 00:06:41,440 --> 00:06:44,640 Speaker 1: remaining price controls. Chicago Boys would go on to do 122 00:06:44,720 --> 00:06:47,320 Speaker 1: things like privatizing the entire dele and pension system, with 123 00:06:47,360 --> 00:06:50,200 Speaker 1: the exception of the military, which is a good education 124 00:06:50,279 --> 00:06:53,040 Speaker 1: of any as to what the regime thought the actual 125 00:06:53,040 --> 00:06:58,360 Speaker 1: effects of privatization would be. In nineteen Pinochet declared something 126 00:06:58,400 --> 00:07:04,680 Speaker 1: called the Seven Modernizations, with quote reforms in labor, education, health, 127 00:07:05,040 --> 00:07:09,440 Speaker 1: regional decentralization, agriculture, and justice policy. The goal of these 128 00:07:09,480 --> 00:07:13,160 Speaker 1: reforms was to introduce the market into literally every aspect 129 00:07:13,160 --> 00:07:17,320 Speaker 1: of society. Now, in Episode one, I very briefly mentioned 130 00:07:17,320 --> 00:07:19,880 Speaker 1: the Virginia School as one of the major schools of 131 00:07:19,920 --> 00:07:24,280 Speaker 1: deal liberalism. The Virginia School the people behind public choice theory. 132 00:07:24,560 --> 00:07:27,720 Speaker 1: Their thing is essentially taking the absolutely absurd set of 133 00:07:27,720 --> 00:07:32,080 Speaker 1: beliefs Chicago School holds about people humans are all knowing, rational, 134 00:07:32,160 --> 00:07:34,800 Speaker 1: calculating gods, optimizing their behavior to get the most of 135 00:07:34,880 --> 00:07:38,920 Speaker 1: every single interaction to maximize the utility, and then applying 136 00:07:38,920 --> 00:07:41,400 Speaker 1: it to political science and then literally every other field. 137 00:07:41,840 --> 00:07:44,280 Speaker 1: If you've ever heard someone say, there's no rational reason 138 00:07:44,320 --> 00:07:47,480 Speaker 1: to vote, because if you're a rational, self interested person, 139 00:07:47,560 --> 00:07:49,840 Speaker 1: the cost of voting outweighs that benefit because your vote 140 00:07:49,840 --> 00:07:52,960 Speaker 1: only matters if it's deciding one. Therefore, it's against your 141 00:07:53,000 --> 00:07:55,559 Speaker 1: interest to vote. That's the Virginia School and their public 142 00:07:55,600 --> 00:08:00,720 Speaker 1: choice theory bullshit at work. Pinochet's seven Modernization was an 143 00:08:00,720 --> 00:08:03,840 Speaker 1: application of Virginia School doctrine to the entire Chilean state 144 00:08:03,880 --> 00:08:06,560 Speaker 1: and as much as the society is humanly possible, with 145 00:08:06,600 --> 00:08:09,480 Speaker 1: the goal of transforming it into a market. I'm going 146 00:08:09,520 --> 00:08:12,000 Speaker 1: to read a section from the Road to Mount Pelion 147 00:08:12,400 --> 00:08:18,360 Speaker 1: describing Virginia School titan James M. Buchanan's work quote ineffectual 148 00:08:18,400 --> 00:08:21,280 Speaker 1: consequences in the political market place were blamed solely on 149 00:08:21,320 --> 00:08:25,240 Speaker 1: the fallacies of political decision making. Quote. We can summarize 150 00:08:25,240 --> 00:08:28,440 Speaker 1: public choice as a theory of government failure end quote. 151 00:08:28,920 --> 00:08:32,920 Speaker 1: Buchanan delivered a highly abstract paper titled Limited or Untitled 152 00:08:32,960 --> 00:08:36,360 Speaker 1: Democracy to the Montpellion Society in Vinea del Mar in Chile, 153 00:08:37,800 --> 00:08:40,520 Speaker 1: which some constructed as a critique of the host country's 154 00:08:40,559 --> 00:08:45,839 Speaker 1: mobilization for action history. Buchanan stated that if limited democracy 155 00:08:45,960 --> 00:08:49,160 Speaker 1: was a polity predisposed to disable a political market that 156 00:08:49,160 --> 00:08:52,800 Speaker 1: would otherwise promote the most efficient allocation of resources, the 157 00:08:52,840 --> 00:08:55,320 Speaker 1: only meaningful task of the government would be to deprive 158 00:08:55,520 --> 00:08:58,679 Speaker 1: the polity of its ability to do so. Public choice 159 00:08:58,720 --> 00:09:01,880 Speaker 1: theory thus sought to limit democracy and deep politicize the 160 00:09:01,880 --> 00:09:04,720 Speaker 1: state in order to enable uncontraded market forces to guide 161 00:09:04,760 --> 00:09:09,400 Speaker 1: human interaction. Since the Pinochet regime was committed to using 162 00:09:09,400 --> 00:09:13,439 Speaker 1: its governmental powers in precisely this manner, Buchanan's paper provided 163 00:09:13,480 --> 00:09:15,960 Speaker 1: theoretical support for the regime, even if it did not 164 00:09:16,040 --> 00:09:20,680 Speaker 1: openly endorsed the authoritarian rule. Buchanan, of course, would spend 165 00:09:20,679 --> 00:09:23,880 Speaker 1: a bunch of time doing lectures in Chile throughout Pinochet's icatorship, 166 00:09:24,040 --> 00:09:27,000 Speaker 1: but he was not that regime's most vociferous neoliberal supporter. 167 00:09:27,520 --> 00:09:30,680 Speaker 1: That award goes to Frederick Hyak Chris Hiek when asked 168 00:09:30,679 --> 00:09:32,800 Speaker 1: about Chile, which had been to nineteen seventy eight and 169 00:09:32,840 --> 00:09:36,480 Speaker 1: that blessed with his approval. A dicatorship can restrict itself 170 00:09:36,480 --> 00:09:39,480 Speaker 1: in A edicatorship which deliberately is restricting itself can be 171 00:09:39,600 --> 00:09:42,439 Speaker 1: more liberal in its politics than a democratic assembly which 172 00:09:42,440 --> 00:09:46,560 Speaker 1: has due limits. Chile's nineteen eighty constitution was drafted in 173 00:09:46,679 --> 00:09:49,840 Speaker 1: part by one of Yek's friends. She has wrote Rode 174 00:09:49,840 --> 00:09:53,480 Speaker 1: Abount Pelion Again. The constitution was not only named after 175 00:09:53,559 --> 00:09:57,600 Speaker 1: hys book The Constitution of Liberty, but also incorporated significant 176 00:09:57,600 --> 00:10:01,240 Speaker 1: elements of hias thinking. Above all, the constitution placed a 177 00:10:01,240 --> 00:10:05,600 Speaker 1: strong emphasis on a neoliberal understanding of freedom. Guzman's version 178 00:10:05,600 --> 00:10:09,320 Speaker 1: of freedom is intrinsically connected to private property, free enterprise, 179 00:10:09,400 --> 00:10:13,720 Speaker 1: and individual rights. Individual freedom, in his interpretation, can only 180 00:10:13,800 --> 00:10:17,920 Speaker 1: evolve in a radical market order. The Constitution was dedicated 181 00:10:17,960 --> 00:10:21,560 Speaker 1: to guarantee such an order without constraining any economic activities. 182 00:10:21,960 --> 00:10:25,160 Speaker 1: In order to protect free market conditions and individual freedoms 183 00:10:25,160 --> 00:10:30,400 Speaker 1: against totalitarian attacks or democratic interventions, the constitution stipulated a 184 00:10:30,480 --> 00:10:33,840 Speaker 1: necessity of a strong central state authority to guarantee the 185 00:10:33,920 --> 00:10:37,199 Speaker 1: established rule of law, and thus above all else is 186 00:10:37,280 --> 00:10:42,320 Speaker 1: hampered in the application of discretionary government power. Exempted were 187 00:10:42,320 --> 00:10:46,240 Speaker 1: measures to uphold the status quo, inasmuch as Guzman aggressively 188 00:10:46,240 --> 00:10:49,760 Speaker 1: supported continuing the state of emergency, which legalized the use 189 00:10:49,800 --> 00:10:53,000 Speaker 1: of whatever discretionary powers were deemed necessary to quial opposition. 190 00:10:54,360 --> 00:10:57,400 Speaker 1: That Folks is a high achi in constitution used the 191 00:10:57,440 --> 00:11:00,080 Speaker 1: state to murder any one once democracy or God to 192 00:11:00,120 --> 00:11:02,360 Speaker 1: help them wants to control the production they're forced to 193 00:11:02,400 --> 00:11:07,000 Speaker 1: serve every day. Chile is near liberalisms voltron by binding 194 00:11:07,040 --> 00:11:10,800 Speaker 1: the power of all four major schools of neoliberalism Chicago 195 00:11:10,840 --> 00:11:15,480 Speaker 1: School and Monetary and Economic policy, Australian School Constitutional order order, 196 00:11:15,520 --> 00:11:18,680 Speaker 1: liberal reliance on the international bureaucracy and legal institutions like 197 00:11:18,720 --> 00:11:21,760 Speaker 1: the i m F in order to promote a market economy, 198 00:11:21,800 --> 00:11:24,960 Speaker 1: and Virginia School public choice theory running the state. You 199 00:11:25,000 --> 00:11:30,160 Speaker 1: get a neoliberal, right wing military dictatorship. Now most conventional 200 00:11:30,160 --> 00:11:33,400 Speaker 1: accounts of neoliberalism will move from Chile to Reagan and 201 00:11:33,440 --> 00:11:37,640 Speaker 1: Thatcher and next episode will cover the neoliberal kind of 202 00:11:37,720 --> 00:11:42,040 Speaker 1: revolution in the angle sphere, But focusing on purely national 203 00:11:42,080 --> 00:11:45,560 Speaker 1: events gives a skewed perception of how neoliberalism actually spreads, 204 00:11:47,200 --> 00:11:49,240 Speaker 1: and in order to correct that, we're going to look 205 00:11:49,240 --> 00:11:52,120 Speaker 1: at Venezuela. I'm going to be drawing heavily here from 206 00:11:52,120 --> 00:11:55,200 Speaker 1: the work of the legendary Venezuelan anthropologist Fernando core and 207 00:11:55,200 --> 00:11:57,520 Speaker 1: Neil in his book The Magical State, which I highly 208 00:11:57,520 --> 00:11:59,280 Speaker 1: recommend as one of the best things that are written 209 00:11:59,280 --> 00:12:03,280 Speaker 1: about oil and the Venezuelan state. So readers be warned. 210 00:12:03,400 --> 00:12:06,040 Speaker 1: Chapter one is an absolute slog that, on the one hand, 211 00:12:06,080 --> 00:12:08,080 Speaker 1: is one of the most interesting explanations of what oiler 212 00:12:08,080 --> 00:12:11,760 Speaker 1: rents are have ever encountered, but also features Corneal inventing 213 00:12:11,800 --> 00:12:15,120 Speaker 1: a new trielectic and then stubbornly refusing to explain what 214 00:12:15,240 --> 00:12:18,120 Speaker 1: it is or literally anything about how it works. So 215 00:12:18,440 --> 00:12:22,880 Speaker 1: read The Magical State skip chapter one now the guiding 216 00:12:22,920 --> 00:12:27,080 Speaker 1: principles of the new mass capitalists, democratic parties and posted statorship. 217 00:12:27,160 --> 00:12:30,920 Speaker 1: Venezuela since the nineties sixties had been developing sovereignty by 218 00:12:30,960 --> 00:12:34,520 Speaker 1: economic independence. The keystone of this project was an attempt 219 00:12:34,559 --> 00:12:36,319 Speaker 1: to use the power of the state in new oil 220 00:12:36,440 --> 00:12:40,760 Speaker 1: rents to develop an automotive industry. The project has sort 221 00:12:40,800 --> 00:12:43,840 Speaker 1: of stalled out from its origins in the sixties until 222 00:12:43,840 --> 00:12:46,280 Speaker 1: the rise of the G seventy seven Opeque Alliance in 223 00:12:46,400 --> 00:12:49,920 Speaker 1: nineteen nineteen seventy four that we discussed last episode. In 224 00:12:50,000 --> 00:12:53,080 Speaker 1: nineteen seventy five, Venezuela's Assembly passed a law that granted 225 00:12:53,080 --> 00:12:56,520 Speaker 1: the president's special powers to speed up the developments of 226 00:12:56,520 --> 00:13:01,120 Speaker 1: the Auto Industry Corp. The Auto Industry in Venezuela Corinial 227 00:13:01,200 --> 00:13:04,000 Speaker 1: described it thus quote. The central goal was to have 228 00:13:04,720 --> 00:13:07,840 Speaker 1: of the vehicle's value, including the drive train, produced locally. 229 00:13:07,920 --> 00:13:11,880 Speaker 1: By nineteen five, major components would be produced by enterprises 230 00:13:11,920 --> 00:13:14,120 Speaker 1: having at least fifty one percent of their capital from 231 00:13:14,160 --> 00:13:17,920 Speaker 1: local private sources. Existing foreign companies would have to become 232 00:13:17,960 --> 00:13:20,920 Speaker 1: mixed or national firms in accord within day Impact regulations 233 00:13:20,920 --> 00:13:24,320 Speaker 1: if they wanted to benefit from the common market. Now, 234 00:13:24,920 --> 00:13:28,680 Speaker 1: this plan is what's called industrial import substitution. Developing countries 235 00:13:28,679 --> 00:13:31,760 Speaker 1: would attempt to develop industries, in this case, auto manufacturers 236 00:13:31,920 --> 00:13:34,640 Speaker 1: inside of a country to produce cars for internal consumption 237 00:13:34,640 --> 00:13:37,920 Speaker 1: instead of importing them from other countries. The other key 238 00:13:37,960 --> 00:13:43,439 Speaker 1: of this plan is Danda Impact, an association of Bolivia, Columbia, Ecuador, Peru, 239 00:13:43,600 --> 00:13:47,319 Speaker 1: and Chile that was collaborating to develop a regional industrial 240 00:13:47,320 --> 00:13:50,559 Speaker 1: economy that we use local resources to build a local 241 00:13:50,600 --> 00:13:53,920 Speaker 1: industrial economy producing industrial goods made entirely inside of the 242 00:13:53,960 --> 00:13:58,440 Speaker 1: countries themselves from their resources. Now, Venezuela joins the pack 243 00:13:58,520 --> 00:14:01,079 Speaker 1: in nineteen seventy three, and Peano Shane notably leaves in 244 00:14:02,960 --> 00:14:05,520 Speaker 1: the key sticking points in this joint and day impact 245 00:14:05,600 --> 00:14:09,240 Speaker 1: venezuela attempts to build an auto industry was that Venezuela 246 00:14:09,280 --> 00:14:12,520 Speaker 1: needed technology held by multinational corporations in order to actually 247 00:14:12,520 --> 00:14:15,960 Speaker 1: produce the vehicles. Multinational car companies were willing to go 248 00:14:16,000 --> 00:14:18,120 Speaker 1: ahead with the project to build cars in Venezuela in 249 00:14:18,160 --> 00:14:20,040 Speaker 1: the short term because they were hurting from the oil 250 00:14:20,040 --> 00:14:22,480 Speaker 1: shock and thus were willing to help national plans develop 251 00:14:22,560 --> 00:14:24,640 Speaker 1: cars as long as they could use the parts to 252 00:14:24,640 --> 00:14:27,000 Speaker 1: build their own cars with parts sourced from around the world. 253 00:14:28,080 --> 00:14:30,840 Speaker 1: And this is where the neoliberal defensive intellectual property rights 254 00:14:30,880 --> 00:14:33,760 Speaker 1: becomes extremely important, because the companies who held the patents 255 00:14:33,760 --> 00:14:36,800 Speaker 1: for the drive trains essentially had a technological strangleholder for 256 00:14:36,880 --> 00:14:42,760 Speaker 1: car development. Now, Venezuela conducted an extensive bidding process for 257 00:14:42,800 --> 00:14:46,360 Speaker 1: companies to make cars in Venezuela, but the car companies 258 00:14:46,440 --> 00:14:50,760 Speaker 1: essentially sabotaged by submitting designs that failed specs. The result 259 00:14:50,920 --> 00:14:54,720 Speaker 1: was a kind of political war inside Venezuela and particularly 260 00:14:54,800 --> 00:14:57,440 Speaker 1: inside the Venezuela and ruling class, between national developments and 261 00:14:57,520 --> 00:15:03,440 Speaker 1: international profits. The Venezuelan developmentalists needed a breakthrough. What they needed, 262 00:15:03,480 --> 00:15:08,360 Speaker 1: in essence, was new international economic order and its corporate regulations, 263 00:15:08,440 --> 00:15:13,560 Speaker 1: debt relief, and technology transfers. Without them, even a third 264 00:15:13,560 --> 00:15:17,560 Speaker 1: World country like Venezuela, flush with oil money, was incapable 265 00:15:17,640 --> 00:15:22,160 Speaker 1: of developing an industrial economy. The new international Economic Order 266 00:15:22,200 --> 00:15:24,960 Speaker 1: never came. All the G seven had to do in 267 00:15:25,160 --> 00:15:27,160 Speaker 1: order to stop it was stalled the G seventy seven 268 00:15:27,200 --> 00:15:30,600 Speaker 1: out until commodity power faded. The G seventy seven had 269 00:15:30,640 --> 00:15:32,960 Speaker 1: to fundamentally change the structure of the economy in order 270 00:15:33,000 --> 00:15:35,720 Speaker 1: to allow them to industrialize before the sort of damocles 271 00:15:35,800 --> 00:15:38,800 Speaker 1: hanging over all their heads the mounting Third World debt 272 00:15:39,280 --> 00:15:43,080 Speaker 1: fell and decapitated them. The G seven strategy to outlast 273 00:15:43,000 --> 00:15:45,080 Speaker 1: the G seventy seven was to pull the various factions 274 00:15:45,080 --> 00:15:48,560 Speaker 1: in the seventy seven apart, in particular pulling the moderate 275 00:15:48,600 --> 00:15:51,640 Speaker 1: governments away from the radical wing of OPEC and the 276 00:15:51,720 --> 00:15:55,560 Speaker 1: African Socialists. They attacked OPEC by using Saudi Arabia to 277 00:15:55,640 --> 00:15:57,960 Speaker 1: undermine its unity, and attempted to peel the so called 278 00:15:58,040 --> 00:16:02,320 Speaker 1: less developed countries away from their alliance with OPEC with 279 00:16:02,400 --> 00:16:04,640 Speaker 1: a promise of aid to patch up the damage dealt 280 00:16:04,640 --> 00:16:08,760 Speaker 1: by increased oil prices. Neither worked incredibly well, but when 281 00:16:08,760 --> 00:16:11,200 Speaker 1: combined with the US essentially shutting the u N down 282 00:16:11,280 --> 00:16:13,520 Speaker 1: by refusing to let any business get done, refusing to 283 00:16:13,600 --> 00:16:18,560 Speaker 1: vote for or even vetoing routine matters, the stalling worked. 284 00:16:19,400 --> 00:16:23,840 Speaker 1: No new international economic order was forthcoming. Instead, the world 285 00:16:23,880 --> 00:16:28,680 Speaker 1: would get neoliberalism. Neoliberalism arrived on the world stage in 286 00:16:28,680 --> 00:16:31,680 Speaker 1: the form of the Vulcar Shock. In nineteen seventy nine, 287 00:16:31,760 --> 00:16:34,240 Speaker 1: Jimmy Carter appointed Paul Vulcar as the Chairman of the 288 00:16:34,280 --> 00:16:36,560 Speaker 1: Federal Reserve for the broad mandate to do whatever he 289 00:16:36,640 --> 00:16:41,200 Speaker 1: wanted to reduce inflation. Vulcar had become a disciple of monitorism, 290 00:16:41,240 --> 00:16:43,600 Speaker 1: a Freedman Night Chicago School belief about the role of 291 00:16:43,640 --> 00:16:46,239 Speaker 1: the money supply in the economy considered to be absolutely 292 00:16:46,280 --> 00:16:49,920 Speaker 1: crank even by modern neoliberals. His solution, which became known 293 00:16:49,920 --> 00:16:53,840 Speaker 1: as the Vulcar Shock, was to increase interest rate. This 294 00:16:54,000 --> 00:16:56,640 Speaker 1: essentially blew a crater in the American economy and immediately 295 00:16:56,680 --> 00:16:59,040 Speaker 1: sent it into recession. And we'll get to vulcar at 296 00:16:59,040 --> 00:17:01,760 Speaker 1: Reagan's efforts to roy American labor in the next episode. 297 00:17:02,120 --> 00:17:04,800 Speaker 1: But the damage to the Third World was even worse. 298 00:17:06,080 --> 00:17:10,040 Speaker 1: G seventy seven governments had for decades taking on adjustable 299 00:17:10,119 --> 00:17:13,400 Speaker 1: rate loans pecked to something called the lybor rate. When 300 00:17:13,400 --> 00:17:16,160 Speaker 1: they took the loans out, interest rates were virtually negative, 301 00:17:16,400 --> 00:17:19,879 Speaker 1: but when the Vulgar Shock hit, the skyrocketed. Now, as 302 00:17:19,920 --> 00:17:22,280 Speaker 1: we talked about last episode, a major part of the 303 00:17:22,280 --> 00:17:24,800 Speaker 1: crisis of the seventies was enormous piles of oil money, 304 00:17:24,880 --> 00:17:27,920 Speaker 1: mostly from the Gulf States, floating around that nobody could 305 00:17:28,040 --> 00:17:31,080 Speaker 1: actually get returns on because of declining manufacturing profit rates. 306 00:17:31,760 --> 00:17:34,520 Speaker 1: This money wound up flowing back into the American finance system. 307 00:17:34,560 --> 00:17:38,320 Speaker 1: When capital controls were lifted nineteen sevent the banks through 308 00:17:38,359 --> 00:17:40,480 Speaker 1: the money at loans in the Third World. Now, some 309 00:17:40,560 --> 00:17:42,760 Speaker 1: of that money had been put into industrial development that 310 00:17:42,800 --> 00:17:45,000 Speaker 1: had yet to pay off. Some of the money had 311 00:17:45,000 --> 00:17:48,280 Speaker 1: simply been put directly into dictator's bank accounts, but the 312 00:17:48,320 --> 00:17:50,680 Speaker 1: bank's essentially didn't care if the loans they were making 313 00:17:50,680 --> 00:17:53,280 Speaker 1: had little to no chance of being repaid without some 314 00:17:53,359 --> 00:17:57,320 Speaker 1: kind of structure reformed. Because in control of the I 315 00:17:57,520 --> 00:17:59,920 Speaker 1: m F fell to an arch neo liberal named Jacques 316 00:18:00,560 --> 00:18:03,159 Speaker 1: de la Rosier. I really don't know if that's how 317 00:18:03,200 --> 00:18:06,680 Speaker 1: to pronounce his name, but he is evil. So neo 318 00:18:06,720 --> 00:18:09,280 Speaker 1: liberals further took control of the World Bank in knee 319 00:18:09,960 --> 00:18:11,600 Speaker 1: from the I m F and the World Bank, a 320 00:18:11,640 --> 00:18:14,280 Speaker 1: sepsia of ne liberals enshrined the key principle of the 321 00:18:14,320 --> 00:18:17,840 Speaker 1: new neoliberal order Debtors must always pay back their debts. 322 00:18:18,280 --> 00:18:21,240 Speaker 1: Creditors would no longer assume risk for their loans. Instead, 323 00:18:21,400 --> 00:18:24,440 Speaker 1: loans would be repaid at gunpoint. This was no mere 324 00:18:24,520 --> 00:18:28,199 Speaker 1: rhetorical slogan, As the G seventy seven imploded as a 325 00:18:28,200 --> 00:18:30,440 Speaker 1: political body under the weight of hundreds of billions of 326 00:18:30,480 --> 00:18:34,880 Speaker 1: dollars of debt now with interest. Thomas Sankara, the socialist 327 00:18:34,920 --> 00:18:38,359 Speaker 1: president of Burkina FOSSO, attempted to rally its remains to 328 00:18:38,480 --> 00:18:42,199 Speaker 1: collectively negotiate debt relief. Sakara was promptly shot by a 329 00:18:42,240 --> 00:18:45,760 Speaker 1: former ally who accused him of threatening Borkino Fossil's relationship 330 00:18:45,800 --> 00:18:49,439 Speaker 1: with France. With all resistance slaughtered, entire nations were reduced 331 00:18:49,440 --> 00:18:52,960 Speaker 1: to debt servicing machines, as tax dollars were directed from health, education, 332 00:18:53,359 --> 00:18:56,760 Speaker 1: and social security programs into the coffers of international banks, 333 00:18:57,240 --> 00:19:00,199 Speaker 1: which used the newly neo liberal controlled International Knowledge Very 334 00:19:00,240 --> 00:19:04,080 Speaker 1: Fund as their enforcer. The anthropologist David Graeber described the 335 00:19:04,119 --> 00:19:06,960 Speaker 1: consequence of one such IMF hosterity program in debt the 336 00:19:06,960 --> 00:19:10,879 Speaker 1: first five thousand years. Quote. For almost two years I 337 00:19:10,880 --> 00:19:14,320 Speaker 1: had lived in the highlands of Madagascar. Shortly before I arrived, 338 00:19:14,400 --> 00:19:16,639 Speaker 1: there had been an outbreak of malaria. It was a 339 00:19:16,640 --> 00:19:19,520 Speaker 1: particularly virulent outbreak because malaria had been wiped out in 340 00:19:19,600 --> 00:19:23,080 Speaker 1: Highlight Madagascar many years before, so that after a couple 341 00:19:23,119 --> 00:19:26,560 Speaker 1: of generations, most people had lost their immunity. The problem 342 00:19:26,640 --> 00:19:29,560 Speaker 1: was it took money to maintain those mosquito radication programs, 343 00:19:29,560 --> 00:19:31,400 Speaker 1: since there had to be periodic tests to make sure 344 00:19:31,440 --> 00:19:34,800 Speaker 1: mosquitoes weren't starting to breed again, and spraying campaigns if 345 00:19:34,800 --> 00:19:37,520 Speaker 1: it was discovered that they were not a lot of money. 346 00:19:38,160 --> 00:19:41,600 Speaker 1: But owing to IMF impost austerity programs, the government had 347 00:19:41,600 --> 00:19:45,439 Speaker 1: to cut the monitoring program. Ten thousand people died. I 348 00:19:45,520 --> 00:19:49,120 Speaker 1: met young mothers grieving for lost children. One might think 349 00:19:49,119 --> 00:19:50,439 Speaker 1: it would be hard to make a case that the 350 00:19:50,480 --> 00:19:53,000 Speaker 1: loss of ten thousand human lives is really justified in 351 00:19:53,119 --> 00:19:55,080 Speaker 1: order to ensure that City Bank wouldn't have to cut 352 00:19:55,080 --> 00:19:58,000 Speaker 1: his losses on one irresponsible loan that wasn't particularly important 353 00:19:58,000 --> 00:20:01,480 Speaker 1: to its balance sheet anyways. Following the old old or 354 00:20:01,560 --> 00:20:05,199 Speaker 1: liberal dream of a legal framework to ensure neoliberal market economies, 355 00:20:06,080 --> 00:20:08,399 Speaker 1: the new generation of neoliberals used the I m F, 356 00:20:08,480 --> 00:20:11,320 Speaker 1: World Bank and other bureaucratic institutions to act as dead 357 00:20:11,440 --> 00:20:15,359 Speaker 1: enforcers and the the imposed neoliberal policies from above, without anything 358 00:20:15,359 --> 00:20:19,000 Speaker 1: so petty as democracy interfering with it. In fact, one 359 00:20:19,040 --> 00:20:21,760 Speaker 1: of the first new liberal structural adjustments, one of a 360 00:20:21,800 --> 00:20:24,240 Speaker 1: bewildering new array of terms for I m F and 361 00:20:24,280 --> 00:20:28,439 Speaker 1: force austerity programs, was implemented by the Jamaican socialist Michael 362 00:20:28,440 --> 00:20:32,320 Speaker 1: Manly in nineteen seventy seven, which in a single year 363 00:20:32,400 --> 00:20:34,560 Speaker 1: wiped out every gain in education in public health that 364 00:20:34,640 --> 00:20:37,960 Speaker 1: Madly had spent his first term building up. Similar faith 365 00:20:38,040 --> 00:20:41,600 Speaker 1: would be fall health, education, and justice programs across the world. 366 00:20:42,200 --> 00:20:47,000 Speaker 1: The death toll remains unknown. Venezuela would fall victim to 367 00:20:47,080 --> 00:20:51,840 Speaker 1: a similar fate without the new International Economic Order. Venezuela's 368 00:20:51,880 --> 00:20:56,400 Speaker 1: industrial policy imploded. As post VOLCRA shock, government debt skyrocketed. 369 00:20:57,359 --> 00:20:59,640 Speaker 1: In the nineteen eighties, the government began to impose im 370 00:20:59,760 --> 00:21:03,680 Speaker 1: st ctraal adjustments. Carlos Andres Perez, the man who led 371 00:21:03,680 --> 00:21:06,520 Speaker 1: the industrial pushing in the nineteen seventies, was elected a 372 00:21:06,520 --> 00:21:08,920 Speaker 1: second time in nineteen eighty nine, running a campaign that 373 00:21:08,920 --> 00:21:14,680 Speaker 1: I've seen euphemistically described as quote against liberalization policy. It 374 00:21:14,720 --> 00:21:18,479 Speaker 1: was somewhat more extreme than that, featuring lines such as 375 00:21:18,520 --> 00:21:20,800 Speaker 1: calling the I M F quote a bomb that only 376 00:21:20,880 --> 00:21:24,440 Speaker 1: kills people. But Perez was negotiating with the I m 377 00:21:24,520 --> 00:21:26,720 Speaker 1: F behind the scenes and imposed even harsher I m 378 00:21:26,840 --> 00:21:29,679 Speaker 1: F Asteria measures upon winning the election, leading to a 379 00:21:29,720 --> 00:21:32,240 Speaker 1: mass uprising in nineteen eighty nine that was suppressed in 380 00:21:32,280 --> 00:21:34,880 Speaker 1: a bath of blood, with hundreds killed by the army. 381 00:21:35,720 --> 00:21:38,520 Speaker 1: But even more structural adjustments were imposed after Perez was 382 00:21:38,520 --> 00:21:43,720 Speaker 1: deposed for corruption Nino, implemented ironically by the founder of 383 00:21:43,760 --> 00:21:47,800 Speaker 1: the movement towards Socialism, Teodoro Petkoff, the head of Venezuela's 384 00:21:47,800 --> 00:21:51,960 Speaker 1: planning agency in nineteen ninety six. All of Venezuela's economic 385 00:21:52,000 --> 00:21:55,040 Speaker 1: crisis from the nineteen eighties until now stem from the 386 00:21:55,040 --> 00:21:59,760 Speaker 1: failures of nineteen seventies industrialization without any kind of industrial economy. 387 00:22:00,119 --> 00:22:03,320 Speaker 1: Even the socialist that took power in the national level 388 00:22:03,760 --> 00:22:07,080 Speaker 1: were reduced to shuffling oil rents around, and with the 389 00:22:07,119 --> 00:22:10,120 Speaker 1: market economy still in place, the economy is simply imploded 390 00:22:10,119 --> 00:22:13,800 Speaker 1: again when wild prices fell. This is how neoliberalism comes 391 00:22:13,800 --> 00:22:17,520 Speaker 1: to most countries, not as policies implemented by anything even 392 00:22:17,560 --> 00:22:21,159 Speaker 1: remotely resembling the will of the people, but enforced by 393 00:22:21,160 --> 00:22:24,040 Speaker 1: the international economic system itself and the bureaucrats the I 394 00:22:24,240 --> 00:22:26,959 Speaker 1: m F, the World Bank, and the World Trade Organization. 395 00:22:27,880 --> 00:22:31,359 Speaker 1: It is imposed by enormous states at gunpoints, constituted by 396 00:22:31,359 --> 00:22:33,560 Speaker 1: the mass looting of the population in order to pay 397 00:22:33,760 --> 00:22:37,680 Speaker 1: corporate debt. Masters new liberals have effectively achieved their goal 398 00:22:37,760 --> 00:22:41,359 Speaker 1: and transcendent democratic politics entirely from their purchase in the 399 00:22:41,359 --> 00:22:44,760 Speaker 1: international bureaucracy. They can dictate policy to even hostile leaders. 400 00:22:45,880 --> 00:22:48,600 Speaker 1: But tomorrow we'll see what happens when they take power domestically. 401 00:22:48,600 --> 00:22:50,920 Speaker 1: As we would conclude our Neoliberalism series with a man 402 00:22:51,080 --> 00:23:08,679 Speaker 1: rotting in Hell with Paul Walker Ronald Reagan, Yeah, welcome 403 00:23:08,720 --> 00:23:12,040 Speaker 1: to it could happen here a show about things falling 404 00:23:12,080 --> 00:23:16,679 Speaker 1: apart and is for one final time this week about 405 00:23:17,640 --> 00:23:22,159 Speaker 1: why and how things have fallen apart in this specific way. Um, 406 00:23:22,160 --> 00:23:25,920 Speaker 1: I'm I'm I'm your host, Christopher, and today with me 407 00:23:26,000 --> 00:23:30,880 Speaker 1: I have Garrison. Well, Garrison, Hello, how you doing. I'm 408 00:23:30,920 --> 00:23:34,080 Speaker 1: doing fine. We're gonna talk about something that is not fine. 409 00:23:34,160 --> 00:23:36,399 Speaker 1: It's not fine at all, is in fact extremely grim 410 00:23:36,440 --> 00:23:39,320 Speaker 1: and bad, which is part four of our series of 411 00:23:39,359 --> 00:23:43,439 Speaker 1: deal Liberalism, i e. All of the bad things happened 412 00:23:43,440 --> 00:23:46,879 Speaker 1: at once, so in in in in all last episode 413 00:23:46,880 --> 00:23:49,520 Speaker 1: we talked about how throughout throughout most of the Third 414 00:23:49,520 --> 00:23:52,240 Speaker 1: World or you know, what was at the time known 415 00:23:52,240 --> 00:23:56,880 Speaker 1: as the Third World, new liberalism is not really imposed 416 00:23:56,880 --> 00:23:59,360 Speaker 1: by people voting for it. It's mostly imposed by either 417 00:23:59,440 --> 00:24:03,159 Speaker 1: external fours is, via coup or by just the I 418 00:24:03,280 --> 00:24:07,240 Speaker 1: M f going okay, just we're running the country now. Um, 419 00:24:07,359 --> 00:24:09,959 Speaker 1: but this this, yeah, We're we're gonna shift our focus 420 00:24:10,000 --> 00:24:14,080 Speaker 1: a bit this episode with the people who were I 421 00:24:14,080 --> 00:24:18,639 Speaker 1: don't know, unfortunate enough, misguided enough decided that they hated 422 00:24:18,680 --> 00:24:23,280 Speaker 1: each other enough to actually choose neoliberalism for themselves. Now, 423 00:24:23,640 --> 00:24:25,840 Speaker 1: one of the sort of stories we've been tracing here 424 00:24:25,840 --> 00:24:29,200 Speaker 1: on sort of a very broad arc is the reaction 425 00:24:29,240 --> 00:24:31,440 Speaker 1: by Neil Bulls to kind of kind of compromise. It 426 00:24:31,440 --> 00:24:33,560 Speaker 1: has been worked out between labor and capital, particularly the 427 00:24:33,720 --> 00:24:36,639 Speaker 1: US after sort of the open class warfare in the 428 00:24:36,680 --> 00:24:40,440 Speaker 1: directeen thirties. And you know, there's essentially there's there's a 429 00:24:40,520 --> 00:24:44,560 Speaker 1: kind of deal that's set up informally, which is so 430 00:24:45,600 --> 00:24:49,080 Speaker 1: the we're working class will stop literally constantly going on 431 00:24:49,119 --> 00:24:51,800 Speaker 1: strike and showing up the strikes with like enormous numbers 432 00:24:51,800 --> 00:24:54,560 Speaker 1: of guns and shooting at people, and they will you know, 433 00:24:54,600 --> 00:24:56,960 Speaker 1: stop trying to overshow the government in exchange, the state 434 00:24:57,000 --> 00:24:59,399 Speaker 1: gives you welfare programs. The state will give you a house. 435 00:24:59,560 --> 00:25:01,160 Speaker 1: And this is the is particularly after what we'd two 436 00:25:01,440 --> 00:25:03,679 Speaker 1: the Americans say it just you know, does this massive 437 00:25:03,760 --> 00:25:06,120 Speaker 1: homeownersial campaign. And you know, if if you're if you're 438 00:25:06,119 --> 00:25:09,000 Speaker 1: if you're you know, a union worker, particularly if you're 439 00:25:09,040 --> 00:25:11,920 Speaker 1: a white man, like this, this you know, working working, 440 00:25:11,920 --> 00:25:13,399 Speaker 1: working one of these union jobs will put you into 441 00:25:13,440 --> 00:25:15,040 Speaker 1: the middle class. You can take vacations, you can have 442 00:25:15,040 --> 00:25:18,159 Speaker 1: a house, um, you can get pensions. Your unions are 443 00:25:18,240 --> 00:25:19,840 Speaker 1: legal now, which is the thing that like you know, 444 00:25:19,880 --> 00:25:24,840 Speaker 1: hadn't happened before. And this is essentially you know, this 445 00:25:24,880 --> 00:25:28,440 Speaker 1: is essentially a kind of insurgency tool um. The goal 446 00:25:28,480 --> 00:25:31,960 Speaker 1: of this is to stop people from you know, doing 447 00:25:31,960 --> 00:25:33,960 Speaker 1: the kinds of revolts. So we're happening in at the dirties, 448 00:25:34,680 --> 00:25:37,760 Speaker 1: but by the nineteen seventies it's becoming very clear that 449 00:25:37,800 --> 00:25:40,399 Speaker 1: this sort of the like can't it can't really be 450 00:25:40,480 --> 00:25:43,679 Speaker 1: maintained because it's too expensive for sort of the capital 451 00:25:43,720 --> 00:25:47,080 Speaker 1: states to maintain and trying to maintain both well. And 452 00:25:47,480 --> 00:25:49,880 Speaker 1: you know, the secondary thing here is is, you know, okay, 453 00:25:49,920 --> 00:25:52,400 Speaker 1: so this deal specifically goes out to white men right 454 00:25:53,280 --> 00:25:56,120 Speaker 1: now throughout the sixties and seventies, you get a bunch 455 00:25:56,119 --> 00:25:59,080 Speaker 1: of other people who are not white men attempting to 456 00:25:59,200 --> 00:26:01,040 Speaker 1: enter the workplace in time when you get the same bargain, 457 00:26:01,160 --> 00:26:04,040 Speaker 1: and you know, they're in a lot of ways significantly 458 00:26:04,080 --> 00:26:08,520 Speaker 1: on militants, and this causes en normal sponsetermentional strife. You 459 00:26:08,600 --> 00:26:11,840 Speaker 1: get you know, the US is murdering the black panthers. 460 00:26:11,920 --> 00:26:16,520 Speaker 1: You get similar stuff in the UK. And the neoliberals 461 00:26:16,600 --> 00:26:22,040 Speaker 1: basically are the people who just fully called this to 462 00:26:22,119 --> 00:26:24,240 Speaker 1: tant off and are you know, essentially going to return 463 00:26:24,280 --> 00:26:27,359 Speaker 1: to full scale class war. And so now now we 464 00:26:27,400 --> 00:26:29,480 Speaker 1: are we are finally getting to Reagan and Thatcher and 465 00:26:29,640 --> 00:26:31,719 Speaker 1: one day we will do a full episode about how 466 00:26:31,800 --> 00:26:35,280 Speaker 1: Ronald Reagan, in a weird, shadowy cabal of Italian intelligence 467 00:26:35,280 --> 00:26:37,960 Speaker 1: services rigged the nineteen eighty election by planting fake stories 468 00:26:38,000 --> 00:26:42,280 Speaker 1: about Jimmy Carter's brother and the press, which is if 469 00:26:42,280 --> 00:26:45,800 Speaker 1: you hear the story, Garrison, No, but it sounds like 470 00:26:45,920 --> 00:26:50,360 Speaker 1: regular media manipulation that happens all the time. Now, Yeah, yeah, 471 00:26:50,440 --> 00:26:52,560 Speaker 1: it's it's yeah, there, there's, there's there's there's there's a 472 00:26:52,600 --> 00:26:56,679 Speaker 1: whole three line there because you know a lot of 473 00:26:56,680 --> 00:26:59,520 Speaker 1: those like same kind of intelligence tactics are gonna be 474 00:26:59,600 --> 00:27:01,320 Speaker 1: used South I Rock war, and there's there's this whole 475 00:27:01,359 --> 00:27:03,120 Speaker 1: sort of thing. Then you know that there's also the 476 00:27:03,119 --> 00:27:07,000 Speaker 1: specific Italian angle of uh yeah, the Italian States being 477 00:27:07,080 --> 00:27:10,960 Speaker 1: run by this rogue Masonic lodge led by a fascist 478 00:27:11,400 --> 00:27:13,920 Speaker 1: and it's it's a time this is all going on there. 479 00:27:13,920 --> 00:27:15,879 Speaker 1: But that's you know, I'm just I'm just thinking like 480 00:27:16,080 --> 00:27:20,080 Speaker 1: Hunter Biden laptop and all of that. Yeah, yeah stuff. 481 00:27:20,119 --> 00:27:23,200 Speaker 1: It's like, oh so that's just the same playbook. Yeah, 482 00:27:23,240 --> 00:27:25,119 Speaker 1: it's it's the same thing, except like they were like 483 00:27:25,200 --> 00:27:28,040 Speaker 1: actual intelligence people running it instead of just sort of 484 00:27:28,080 --> 00:27:33,440 Speaker 1: like whatever. Tucker Carlson Tucker Carlos said, Glenn Greenwall trying 485 00:27:33,440 --> 00:27:37,400 Speaker 1: to get people care about this thing that just nobody 486 00:27:37,440 --> 00:27:40,439 Speaker 1: gives a single ship about. Yeah, you know, it was, 487 00:27:40,480 --> 00:27:42,760 Speaker 1: it was, but the Ages version of it was significantly 488 00:27:42,760 --> 00:27:45,600 Speaker 1: more effective. And you know the product of this is 489 00:27:45,640 --> 00:27:50,879 Speaker 1: that Reagan sort of Reagan finds like the secret sauce 490 00:27:51,040 --> 00:27:52,879 Speaker 1: for right wing politics, which is kind of you know, 491 00:27:53,960 --> 00:27:57,240 Speaker 1: in in in some ways, and Nixon had been trying 492 00:27:57,240 --> 00:28:01,760 Speaker 1: to develop it hadn't quite gotten right, which is no, yeah, yeah, yeah, 493 00:28:01,760 --> 00:28:03,160 Speaker 1: he he figures out that you know, if you want 494 00:28:03,160 --> 00:28:04,880 Speaker 1: to do ne liberalism, if you want to destroy the unions, 495 00:28:04,920 --> 00:28:06,359 Speaker 1: you want to stroy the welfare state, the way you 496 00:28:06,400 --> 00:28:09,320 Speaker 1: do it is basically a combination of racist tax and 497 00:28:09,359 --> 00:28:14,160 Speaker 1: welfare recipients and you mobilize new religious right. And this 498 00:28:14,200 --> 00:28:16,360 Speaker 1: is extremely effective and it's but I think it's also 499 00:28:16,440 --> 00:28:19,639 Speaker 1: interesting in worth noting that, you know, if if you 500 00:28:19,680 --> 00:28:21,760 Speaker 1: got all the back to episode one, like this is 501 00:28:21,800 --> 00:28:24,880 Speaker 1: this is rope keys like white nationalism, like sure German 502 00:28:24,920 --> 00:28:27,400 Speaker 1: white nationalism. Thing is this is explicitly a ropeky sort 503 00:28:27,400 --> 00:28:30,040 Speaker 1: of strategy for implenting the liberalism. Was the problem is 504 00:28:30,119 --> 00:28:32,399 Speaker 1: he was German and Catholic, which meant that like it 505 00:28:32,440 --> 00:28:35,679 Speaker 1: could never work in the US, but you know, you 506 00:28:35,760 --> 00:28:38,200 Speaker 1: get Reagan, suddenly you get the American version of it, 507 00:28:38,280 --> 00:28:42,640 Speaker 1: that is, you know, white but American, and then also 508 00:28:43,000 --> 00:28:44,640 Speaker 1: works off the sort of of off of the sort 509 00:28:44,640 --> 00:28:50,600 Speaker 1: of mass Protestantism in the US, and this becomes a 510 00:28:50,600 --> 00:28:55,680 Speaker 1: force study is responsible for like almost every bad thing 511 00:28:55,720 --> 00:28:59,720 Speaker 1: that exists today in some form or another, a lot 512 00:28:59,720 --> 00:29:01,640 Speaker 1: of them. Yeah, I mean not not often, but you know, 513 00:29:01,760 --> 00:29:07,479 Speaker 1: I the thing, things go extremely badly. And so Reagan 514 00:29:07,520 --> 00:29:09,960 Speaker 1: wins this election and then almost exactly the same time, 515 00:29:10,520 --> 00:29:14,080 Speaker 1: Margaret Thatcher wins the wins her election in in the UK, 516 00:29:14,320 --> 00:29:18,600 Speaker 1: and that the combination of those two things, and also, 517 00:29:18,720 --> 00:29:21,120 Speaker 1: as we talked about last episode, the Vulcar Shock, where 518 00:29:21,720 --> 00:29:26,800 Speaker 1: Vulcar raises the interest rates raised, defendation become so Vulcar 519 00:29:26,880 --> 00:29:30,320 Speaker 1: is installed weirdly, not by Ronald Reagan but by Jimmy Carter, 520 00:29:31,000 --> 00:29:33,120 Speaker 1: but is given this sort of mandate to just do whatever, 521 00:29:33,440 --> 00:29:35,479 Speaker 1: literally do whatever you have to to to get inflation 522 00:29:35,520 --> 00:29:37,120 Speaker 1: under control. The thing that he decides to do is 523 00:29:37,160 --> 00:29:40,600 Speaker 1: just literally nuke the entire world economy. You know, when 524 00:29:40,640 --> 00:29:42,560 Speaker 1: we talked about the effects of this had on sort 525 00:29:42,560 --> 00:29:45,520 Speaker 1: of the world in the last episode. But in the 526 00:29:45,600 --> 00:29:48,560 Speaker 1: US this sets off a recession at last, basically from 527 00:29:48,600 --> 00:29:52,280 Speaker 1: like nineteen seventy nine to Night two. At the height 528 00:29:52,320 --> 00:29:55,000 Speaker 1: of it, it's like it's I think we finally got 529 00:29:55,040 --> 00:29:59,480 Speaker 1: more people unemployed during the pandemic, but I'm like sure 530 00:29:59,520 --> 00:30:02,560 Speaker 1: that between World War two, in the pandemic, that was 531 00:30:02,600 --> 00:30:04,360 Speaker 1: the single largest number of people who have been unemployed 532 00:30:04,360 --> 00:30:07,480 Speaker 1: in the US, which just yeah, it was just apocle, 533 00:30:07,600 --> 00:30:10,280 Speaker 1: just apocle devastation. And you know, there's there's there's a 534 00:30:10,280 --> 00:30:12,280 Speaker 1: whole thing here where the head of the a f 535 00:30:12,360 --> 00:30:14,680 Speaker 1: l c. I oh is literally begging Vulcar like, please 536 00:30:14,720 --> 00:30:17,040 Speaker 1: don't do this, like we can get inflation under control after, 537 00:30:17,280 --> 00:30:19,600 Speaker 1: you know, after the economy recovers, and vocals just like no. 538 00:30:20,840 --> 00:30:23,280 Speaker 1: The consequence of this is that you have you have 539 00:30:23,280 --> 00:30:25,560 Speaker 1: an economy in which is no MOUs number people unemployed, 540 00:30:26,360 --> 00:30:31,280 Speaker 1: and the unions are weak, and both Reagan and Thatcher 541 00:30:32,720 --> 00:30:35,600 Speaker 1: sort of see this. Now the unions in the UK 542 00:30:35,720 --> 00:30:37,840 Speaker 1: are in a snifful better position of the American unions. 543 00:30:39,520 --> 00:30:42,720 Speaker 1: Reagan is able to sort of smash the American unions 544 00:30:42,800 --> 00:30:45,120 Speaker 1: very quickly. There's there's the you know, the famous air 545 00:30:45,120 --> 00:30:47,640 Speaker 1: traffic control strike where a bunch of American air traffic 546 00:30:47,720 --> 00:30:51,920 Speaker 1: controllers go on strike technically illegally, and Reagan just has 547 00:30:52,080 --> 00:30:54,600 Speaker 1: literally every single one of them fired and replaces them 548 00:30:54,640 --> 00:30:58,800 Speaker 1: with just like like like people from flight school, like 549 00:30:58,880 --> 00:31:01,400 Speaker 1: people who just just like literally anyone he can just 550 00:31:01,440 --> 00:31:03,440 Speaker 1: like pull off the street who sort of kind of 551 00:31:03,480 --> 00:31:05,600 Speaker 1: knows how to how to land an aircraft, like they 552 00:31:05,600 --> 00:31:07,840 Speaker 1: put on people from the military. It's it's just like 553 00:31:07,880 --> 00:31:11,880 Speaker 1: this absolutely wild sort of feet of strike breaking. And 554 00:31:11,920 --> 00:31:14,720 Speaker 1: then you know, and when when when that falls and 555 00:31:14,960 --> 00:31:19,160 Speaker 1: that that strike fails, you know, the air traffic controllers, well, okay, 556 00:31:19,200 --> 00:31:21,320 Speaker 1: funnily so, the air traff controllers had actually backed Reagan. 557 00:31:21,360 --> 00:31:23,400 Speaker 1: They were like the only union that backed Reagan in 558 00:31:23,440 --> 00:31:26,360 Speaker 1: the election, and they immediately just get you know, they 559 00:31:26,400 --> 00:31:32,560 Speaker 1: get gutted for it, which, like I have mixed feelings 560 00:31:32,600 --> 00:31:35,120 Speaker 1: about because like, on the one hand, like, yeah, that's that's, 561 00:31:35,160 --> 00:31:36,760 Speaker 1: that's what you get. But on the other hand, this 562 00:31:36,800 --> 00:31:40,240 Speaker 1: is basically what the stories this, this is the consequences 563 00:31:40,240 --> 00:31:42,680 Speaker 1: that this is basically what the stories like trade unions 564 00:31:42,680 --> 00:31:45,240 Speaker 1: in the US because at this at this point, everyone 565 00:31:45,280 --> 00:31:47,400 Speaker 1: realizes that the unions a week and they just start. 566 00:31:47,520 --> 00:31:49,240 Speaker 1: You know, there's you get to the point where employers 567 00:31:49,240 --> 00:31:52,200 Speaker 1: are deliberately provoking strikes so that they can just fire 568 00:31:52,200 --> 00:31:56,600 Speaker 1: all the unionized employees. And it's extremely effective. In in Britain, 569 00:31:57,000 --> 00:32:01,000 Speaker 1: the fight is a lot more intense um in in 570 00:32:01,160 --> 00:32:05,080 Speaker 1: in Ninity four, Thatcher cuts cold, Like basically Thatchery wants 571 00:32:05,080 --> 00:32:08,120 Speaker 1: to provoke a fight with with the coal unions, and 572 00:32:08,920 --> 00:32:10,800 Speaker 1: so she basically wants to shut down a whole bunch 573 00:32:10,800 --> 00:32:14,920 Speaker 1: of coal production and fire like twenty miners, and the 574 00:32:14,960 --> 00:32:16,680 Speaker 1: miners go on strike, and they go on strike for 575 00:32:16,720 --> 00:32:20,040 Speaker 1: over a year. But Thatcher had basically stockpiled enough cold 576 00:32:20,040 --> 00:32:21,760 Speaker 1: to stay off the worst effects of the strike. And 577 00:32:21,800 --> 00:32:25,040 Speaker 1: then she makes these incredibly elaborate network of deals with 578 00:32:25,760 --> 00:32:29,360 Speaker 1: like She's like this this whole scab driver like union, 579 00:32:29,640 --> 00:32:32,840 Speaker 1: like basical basically this whole network of scab drivers, like 580 00:32:32,880 --> 00:32:34,400 Speaker 1: make sure you can move the coal around while the 581 00:32:34,400 --> 00:32:38,640 Speaker 1: strike's going on. There there's all of this stuff, and 582 00:32:39,680 --> 00:32:41,800 Speaker 1: you know, and and she eventually is able to trust 583 00:32:41,800 --> 00:32:44,520 Speaker 1: the coal strike and this also just just completely annihilates 584 00:32:45,360 --> 00:32:47,760 Speaker 1: like the British trade union movement, I mean union participation, 585 00:32:48,320 --> 00:32:52,000 Speaker 1: I think dreaming Thatcher's term alone falls by and it's 586 00:32:52,040 --> 00:32:54,920 Speaker 1: gotten way worse since then. So so with with those 587 00:32:54,920 --> 00:32:59,040 Speaker 1: two incidents, the air traffic control and the coal did 588 00:32:59,160 --> 00:33:02,480 Speaker 1: did those just and of make people be disillusioned? Or 589 00:33:02,600 --> 00:33:05,520 Speaker 1: did that just like pave the way for similar tactics 590 00:33:05,560 --> 00:33:08,680 Speaker 1: to be acceptable for every other union that tried to 591 00:33:08,720 --> 00:33:11,440 Speaker 1: do the same thing both And then the everthing was 592 00:33:11,560 --> 00:33:15,000 Speaker 1: fear because you know, so with the air traffic controllers, right, 593 00:33:15,000 --> 00:33:17,719 Speaker 1: the air traffic controllers are you know, these are the 594 00:33:17,800 --> 00:33:21,360 Speaker 1: most highly skilled like people people in there there. These 595 00:33:21,400 --> 00:33:23,160 Speaker 1: are a bunch of people who are incredibly highly skilled, 596 00:33:23,160 --> 00:33:25,200 Speaker 1: and they're in there, in there in a logistic industry, right, 597 00:33:25,240 --> 00:33:26,680 Speaker 1: so you know, in theory, these are the people who 598 00:33:26,720 --> 00:33:29,840 Speaker 1: have like the maximum amount of impact if they would 599 00:33:29,840 --> 00:33:33,080 Speaker 1: go on strike. And when Reagan shows that you can 600 00:33:33,120 --> 00:33:35,680 Speaker 1: literally just fire twenty four thousand people of like the 601 00:33:35,960 --> 00:33:38,240 Speaker 1: most highly skilled sort of workers in the in the US, 602 00:33:38,320 --> 00:33:40,040 Speaker 1: you can fire them and just break the strike and 603 00:33:40,080 --> 00:33:42,840 Speaker 1: nothing will happen, and you know the result is total 604 00:33:42,840 --> 00:33:45,200 Speaker 1: defeat and none of these people ever work. Again. That 605 00:33:45,280 --> 00:33:49,320 Speaker 1: basically spreads this massive wave of fear through the union 606 00:33:49,320 --> 00:33:51,520 Speaker 1: movements because you know, if they can fire those guys, 607 00:33:51,560 --> 00:33:54,320 Speaker 1: that can fire anyone and then you know, the the 608 00:33:54,400 --> 00:33:57,360 Speaker 1: employers should start doing it. And the other thing that's 609 00:33:57,360 --> 00:34:02,479 Speaker 1: been happening here is that for really since the end 610 00:34:02,520 --> 00:34:06,880 Speaker 1: of the forties, the unions have kind of So we'll 611 00:34:07,000 --> 00:34:09,840 Speaker 1: we'll talk about this more in in in an interview 612 00:34:09,880 --> 00:34:12,279 Speaker 1: that's gonna come out probably next week about the sort 613 00:34:12,280 --> 00:34:16,839 Speaker 1: of the history American union movements, but American unions basically 614 00:34:17,080 --> 00:34:20,160 Speaker 1: so American, like the union movement was built by radical 615 00:34:20,239 --> 00:34:25,520 Speaker 1: organizers and in the forties and sort of moving on 616 00:34:25,600 --> 00:34:28,319 Speaker 1: from there, all these people get expelled from the labor 617 00:34:28,320 --> 00:34:34,839 Speaker 1: movement and labor fights this basically incredibly intense battle against 618 00:34:34,840 --> 00:34:37,840 Speaker 1: its own left flank, and you have you know, like, 619 00:34:37,880 --> 00:34:40,800 Speaker 1: for example, in in there's this thing called the Dodge 620 00:34:40,800 --> 00:34:42,960 Speaker 1: Revolutionary Union Movement, right, which is a bunch of mostly 621 00:34:43,000 --> 00:34:46,640 Speaker 1: black workers in Detroit, who are you know, there there 622 00:34:46,760 --> 00:34:49,040 Speaker 1: there there there forming unions. They're going on strike, but 623 00:34:49,040 --> 00:34:52,040 Speaker 1: they're also fighting against the the u a W because 624 00:34:52,040 --> 00:34:54,160 Speaker 1: the U a W is cooperating too closer but the 625 00:34:54,200 --> 00:34:56,759 Speaker 1: bosses etcetera, etcetera, etcetera. And there's there's there's these you know, 626 00:34:56,800 --> 00:35:00,560 Speaker 1: there's there's there's basically this battle between like not even 627 00:35:00,600 --> 00:35:03,360 Speaker 1: just basically between the unions ranked and file and the 628 00:35:03,440 --> 00:35:06,880 Speaker 1: radicals and the sort of business union management, and in 629 00:35:07,000 --> 00:35:10,960 Speaker 1: fighting that battle, the unions had basically like massively weakened 630 00:35:11,000 --> 00:35:13,640 Speaker 1: themselves and then you know, and bye bye bye. By 631 00:35:13,640 --> 00:35:17,080 Speaker 1: the time you hit the eighties, especially in the US, 632 00:35:17,120 --> 00:35:18,640 Speaker 1: the unions are just sort of a shell out their 633 00:35:18,680 --> 00:35:21,560 Speaker 1: form ourselves, and and Reagan just sort of like smashes 634 00:35:21,600 --> 00:35:25,319 Speaker 1: them aside. And Thatcher the British unions are much stronger, 635 00:35:25,400 --> 00:35:28,520 Speaker 1: but you know, I mean that Thatcher is preparing to 636 00:35:28,640 --> 00:35:31,239 Speaker 1: like like there she she has plans to like the 637 00:35:31,360 --> 00:35:33,360 Speaker 1: army is going to come in and suppress the strike. 638 00:35:33,440 --> 00:35:36,120 Speaker 1: There's these and especially there's there's just, i mean just 639 00:35:36,200 --> 00:35:40,560 Speaker 1: an absolutely incredible amount of police violence. Um that's you know, 640 00:35:40,600 --> 00:35:42,440 Speaker 1: I mean, this is this is something that had happened 641 00:35:42,480 --> 00:35:45,600 Speaker 1: before dream strikes, but the the the the level of 642 00:35:45,640 --> 00:35:51,160 Speaker 1: intensity of it is just like massively increased. And there's 643 00:35:51,160 --> 00:35:54,839 Speaker 1: also another thing that's happening basically at the same time 644 00:35:54,880 --> 00:35:56,840 Speaker 1: with this, which is squeezing the unions from the other side, 645 00:35:57,600 --> 00:36:02,719 Speaker 1: which is there's this, I guess you could call it 646 00:36:02,760 --> 00:36:06,640 Speaker 1: like an internal class war inside the ruling class between 647 00:36:06,680 --> 00:36:09,400 Speaker 1: well specifically inside inside of the sort of corporate management 648 00:36:09,440 --> 00:36:13,880 Speaker 1: between the sort of traditional like manager CEO class and 649 00:36:14,239 --> 00:36:16,520 Speaker 1: the sort of like I guess you could call them, 650 00:36:16,760 --> 00:36:19,480 Speaker 1: I don't know, the sort of Wall Street finance bank 651 00:36:19,560 --> 00:36:23,279 Speaker 1: types and so so yeah. So one of the other 652 00:36:23,320 --> 00:36:26,360 Speaker 1: things that that happens at the end of you know, 653 00:36:26,560 --> 00:36:29,040 Speaker 1: basically after the war is the sort of class compromise 654 00:36:29,160 --> 00:36:30,920 Speaker 1: was talking about like this, this happens inside of the 655 00:36:30,960 --> 00:36:33,839 Speaker 1: company too, and people start to see the corporation as 656 00:36:33,840 --> 00:36:36,680 Speaker 1: like a social institution and it has you know, it's like, well, okay, 657 00:36:36,680 --> 00:36:41,280 Speaker 1: so there's this alliance between middle management and the workers, 658 00:36:41,280 --> 00:36:42,600 Speaker 1: and you know, it's like, okay, so we we both 659 00:36:42,600 --> 00:36:45,680 Speaker 1: worked with each other, and you know, the compromises that 660 00:36:45,719 --> 00:36:47,839 Speaker 1: you guys got to have unions, but the unions won't 661 00:36:47,880 --> 00:36:49,879 Speaker 1: sort of disrupt production. Will all work together and we'll 662 00:36:49,880 --> 00:36:52,920 Speaker 1: just make like I don't know, we'll we'll make really 663 00:36:53,080 --> 00:36:56,520 Speaker 1: really good ballpoint pens together. And so yeah, you have 664 00:36:56,560 --> 00:36:59,720 Speaker 1: this alliance between sort of middle managements and these unions 665 00:36:59,719 --> 00:37:01,759 Speaker 1: and and this this is embedded into the structure of 666 00:37:01,800 --> 00:37:03,439 Speaker 1: the corporation because you know, you not you not only 667 00:37:03,480 --> 00:37:07,440 Speaker 1: have the unions, but you have corporations paying pensions. One 668 00:37:07,480 --> 00:37:11,840 Speaker 1: of the things that that Reagan does is that Reagan starts, 669 00:37:12,640 --> 00:37:16,000 Speaker 1: you know, Reagan does this massive series of financial deregulations. 670 00:37:16,120 --> 00:37:18,799 Speaker 1: And the other part of this agreement basically had been 671 00:37:18,880 --> 00:37:21,920 Speaker 1: that like the high level of finance class has sort 672 00:37:21,960 --> 00:37:24,040 Speaker 1: of stayed out of the way of management, and so 673 00:37:24,120 --> 00:37:26,880 Speaker 1: management kind of like you know, the you get this 674 00:37:26,960 --> 00:37:29,520 Speaker 1: like this independent sort of CEO class that that's that's 675 00:37:29,520 --> 00:37:32,080 Speaker 1: a distinct thing that you know that there people who 676 00:37:32,120 --> 00:37:34,080 Speaker 1: come up through the company who managers and worked away 677 00:37:34,080 --> 00:37:35,560 Speaker 1: at the top. And this is a distinct thing from 678 00:37:35,560 --> 00:37:38,160 Speaker 1: sort of the finance people who are like they're not 679 00:37:38,200 --> 00:37:40,040 Speaker 1: supposed to be allowed, like you know, the touch production. 680 00:37:40,960 --> 00:37:45,320 Speaker 1: But in the nineteen eighties, the finance people start to 681 00:37:45,360 --> 00:37:48,560 Speaker 1: look at this and go, wait, hold on, why are 682 00:37:48,640 --> 00:37:52,200 Speaker 1: we not running things? And the finance people have because 683 00:37:52,200 --> 00:37:53,480 Speaker 1: they have there are two things on their side. One 684 00:37:53,520 --> 00:37:55,640 Speaker 1: they have a sort of neoliberal ideology, and the second 685 00:37:55,640 --> 00:38:01,520 Speaker 1: thing they have is so Michael Milken he figures out 686 00:38:01,680 --> 00:38:03,800 Speaker 1: how to do this thing called a leverage buyout option. 687 00:38:04,600 --> 00:38:07,000 Speaker 1: It's it's it's a it's a kind of complicated financial instrument. 688 00:38:07,360 --> 00:38:10,040 Speaker 1: The short and simple explanation of what it is is 689 00:38:10,040 --> 00:38:14,560 Speaker 1: he figures out a way too basically go into a 690 00:38:14,600 --> 00:38:17,439 Speaker 1: bunch of debt and he he gets he gets people 691 00:38:17,440 --> 00:38:19,759 Speaker 1: to givehim a bunch of money, like in the form 692 00:38:19,760 --> 00:38:22,520 Speaker 1: of these bonds, and then he uses it just buy 693 00:38:22,520 --> 00:38:25,319 Speaker 1: out entire companies. He buys one percent of the company. 694 00:38:25,360 --> 00:38:27,240 Speaker 1: And if you own fitment of the company, now you control, 695 00:38:27,320 --> 00:38:31,000 Speaker 1: you have controlling interest. And so he goes in and 696 00:38:31,080 --> 00:38:33,040 Speaker 1: she just he just raises the stock prices of all 697 00:38:33,080 --> 00:38:35,480 Speaker 1: these companies. And now you know, but I mean, now 698 00:38:35,760 --> 00:38:38,400 Speaker 1: he's gone into an enormous amount of debts right in 699 00:38:38,520 --> 00:38:40,799 Speaker 1: order to buy in order to buy this company, and 700 00:38:40,840 --> 00:38:42,600 Speaker 1: so you know, in order to pay off that debt, 701 00:38:42,600 --> 00:38:44,920 Speaker 1: he just starts strip money in the company. And so 702 00:38:44,960 --> 00:38:47,359 Speaker 1: he starts, you know, anything that can be sold for 703 00:38:47,480 --> 00:38:49,160 Speaker 1: money that he can put in his pocket to pay 704 00:38:49,160 --> 00:38:51,719 Speaker 1: off his debt starts getting sold. And you know, every 705 00:38:51,760 --> 00:38:53,680 Speaker 1: every anything the corporate that the company is doing, it 706 00:38:53,719 --> 00:38:56,560 Speaker 1: doesn't immediately make money or doesn't immediately raise the stock 707 00:38:56,560 --> 00:39:00,719 Speaker 1: price gets cut. And so you know, there there, there, 708 00:39:00,719 --> 00:39:04,040 Speaker 1: there are. There are two major things that a company 709 00:39:04,080 --> 00:39:06,480 Speaker 1: has that don't immediately make money and don't raise the 710 00:39:06,520 --> 00:39:09,520 Speaker 1: stock price, and that is pensions and research and development. 711 00:39:10,600 --> 00:39:14,120 Speaker 1: And this this has you know, this, this, this, this, 712 00:39:14,120 --> 00:39:16,239 Speaker 1: this becomes known as the sort of this is the 713 00:39:16,280 --> 00:39:20,080 Speaker 1: hustle takeover waves. It gets rebranded as mergers and acquisitions 714 00:39:20,080 --> 00:39:22,200 Speaker 1: in the nineties, but it's it's this huge sort of 715 00:39:22,920 --> 00:39:26,760 Speaker 1: wave that's these corporate scripts corporate America, and it turns 716 00:39:26,800 --> 00:39:30,120 Speaker 1: the corporation from this kind of social body where it's like, well, 717 00:39:30,160 --> 00:39:34,360 Speaker 1: everyone's cooperating and companies sort of have this responsibility to 718 00:39:34,440 --> 00:39:37,480 Speaker 1: like provide for their workers and provide sort of for 719 00:39:37,520 --> 00:39:40,560 Speaker 1: like the social good into literally the only like the 720 00:39:40,880 --> 00:39:43,960 Speaker 1: single entire purpose of any company is to raise the 721 00:39:44,000 --> 00:39:50,399 Speaker 1: stock price. And this, yeah, this is really bad. Yeah, 722 00:39:50,440 --> 00:39:52,600 Speaker 1: and and and you know, the part about it that's 723 00:39:52,640 --> 00:39:56,240 Speaker 1: awful is that, you know, okay, so all all literally 724 00:39:56,320 --> 00:39:59,680 Speaker 1: all a corporate rad has to do in order to 725 00:40:01,080 --> 00:40:02,920 Speaker 1: buy out one of these companies is be able to 726 00:40:03,120 --> 00:40:04,960 Speaker 1: is be able to offer a price for the stock 727 00:40:05,000 --> 00:40:07,960 Speaker 1: that's higher from the stock price of the company now. 728 00:40:08,000 --> 00:40:10,400 Speaker 1: And this means even so they're they're they're there's a 729 00:40:10,480 --> 00:40:14,800 Speaker 1: very famous series of battles they buy out. An enormous 730 00:40:14,840 --> 00:40:17,080 Speaker 1: number of companies get bought out into strip minds like this, 731 00:40:17,840 --> 00:40:19,480 Speaker 1: and you know, and the over and again, these are 732 00:40:19,520 --> 00:40:21,920 Speaker 1: these are very very profitable companies. Right. These are companies 733 00:40:21,960 --> 00:40:24,040 Speaker 1: with large research development budget. These are companies that are 734 00:40:24,080 --> 00:40:27,759 Speaker 1: making enormous amounts of money and they're just completely destroyed 735 00:40:28,239 --> 00:40:30,640 Speaker 1: in order to sort of just like satiate these just 736 00:40:30,880 --> 00:40:34,920 Speaker 1: like absolute ghoul corporate like vulture rader people. This is 737 00:40:34,960 --> 00:40:37,120 Speaker 1: you know, if you remember, might be too young for this, 738 00:40:37,160 --> 00:40:41,120 Speaker 1: but Romney's campaign for so yeah, one of one of 739 00:40:41,120 --> 00:40:44,600 Speaker 1: the reasons why Mitt Romney loses is that like he's 740 00:40:44,640 --> 00:40:47,000 Speaker 1: one of these guys like he's he's like he's the 741 00:40:47,040 --> 00:40:49,719 Speaker 1: big bang capital guy and everyone's kind of looked at 742 00:40:49,800 --> 00:40:52,720 Speaker 1: him and goes like, you're the reason we'd like guide 743 00:40:52,760 --> 00:40:55,719 Speaker 1: to this mess in the first place. But the problem, 744 00:40:55,760 --> 00:40:57,480 Speaker 1: the problem is that these people who have enough money 745 00:40:57,520 --> 00:40:58,759 Speaker 1: and they have enough power if they were able to 746 00:40:58,760 --> 00:41:02,080 Speaker 1: do this and in order to stop them, So either 747 00:41:02,200 --> 00:41:04,680 Speaker 1: there there there's a massive there's a massive fight. A 748 00:41:04,719 --> 00:41:07,680 Speaker 1: bunch of people try to take over good Year, who 749 00:41:07,800 --> 00:41:09,520 Speaker 1: you know, they make the tires, they have the blimps, 750 00:41:10,320 --> 00:41:14,799 Speaker 1: and Goodyear CEO is like fanatically opposed to all of 751 00:41:14,840 --> 00:41:18,120 Speaker 1: this because you know, he's he's from the old ceo 752 00:41:18,239 --> 00:41:20,640 Speaker 1: crop who's like, well, okay, we're here to like make 753 00:41:20,719 --> 00:41:24,040 Speaker 1: things instead of you know, increased stock prices. But the 754 00:41:24,040 --> 00:41:25,719 Speaker 1: problem is the only way he can save off the 755 00:41:25,760 --> 00:41:28,480 Speaker 1: raiders is by increasing a stock price. And the only 756 00:41:28,480 --> 00:41:30,600 Speaker 1: way to increase stock prices is by doing the things 757 00:41:30,600 --> 00:41:32,760 Speaker 1: the corporate raiders already doing. So he starts slashing contains, 758 00:41:32,760 --> 00:41:34,880 Speaker 1: he starts slashing with your development budgets. Yeah, and this 759 00:41:34,920 --> 00:41:37,560 Speaker 1: and this, this sort of cycles because now you have 760 00:41:37,760 --> 00:41:40,360 Speaker 1: you know, there's there, there's it's it's it's you're not 761 00:41:40,400 --> 00:41:43,120 Speaker 1: only having pressure from you know, like the government that's 762 00:41:43,120 --> 00:41:46,840 Speaker 1: that's anti union. The corporations themselves are being forced to 763 00:41:46,880 --> 00:41:49,520 Speaker 1: become more anti union because they're you know, they now 764 00:41:49,560 --> 00:41:51,960 Speaker 1: have this pressure on them from the top down, from 765 00:41:52,000 --> 00:41:54,480 Speaker 1: from these sort of these sort of finance schools, and 766 00:41:54,920 --> 00:41:57,840 Speaker 1: the finance schools in a lot of ways just the 767 00:41:57,920 --> 00:42:00,799 Speaker 1: perfect nilable subjects, right because they they only see the 768 00:42:00,800 --> 00:42:02,600 Speaker 1: world in money. They see everything as a market that 769 00:42:02,680 --> 00:42:05,360 Speaker 1: they literally think that like they they are like these 770 00:42:05,440 --> 00:42:08,080 Speaker 1: like shamans if if if there's a really good ethnography 771 00:42:08,080 --> 00:42:12,440 Speaker 1: that I've plugged before on here called liquidated and an 772 00:42:12,480 --> 00:42:16,000 Speaker 1: ethnography and void yet liquidated an ethnography of Wall Street, 773 00:42:16,400 --> 00:42:18,839 Speaker 1: where an anthropologist goes onto Wall Street and works there 774 00:42:18,880 --> 00:42:21,160 Speaker 1: for a while and then you cannot a bunch of interviews, 775 00:42:21,160 --> 00:42:23,319 Speaker 1: doesn't it doesn't adempological stuff. And the way they talk 776 00:42:23,360 --> 00:42:25,719 Speaker 1: about the market, they literally talk about as if they're 777 00:42:25,800 --> 00:42:28,640 Speaker 1: channeling it, right, like it's like something and they're like, 778 00:42:29,239 --> 00:42:32,520 Speaker 1: these are yeah, these are these are that's what's one 779 00:42:32,560 --> 00:42:36,520 Speaker 1: of the new gods of of our world? That yeah, 780 00:42:36,560 --> 00:42:39,719 Speaker 1: that's I mean, that's that's not a uncommon term of 781 00:42:39,760 --> 00:42:42,520 Speaker 1: phrase to describe stuff like this. Yeah, and and what 782 00:42:42,520 --> 00:42:44,160 Speaker 1: what what What I think is interesting about it, though, 783 00:42:44,239 --> 00:42:47,279 Speaker 1: is that you know that conception of the market of 784 00:42:47,320 --> 00:42:50,960 Speaker 1: like every person is just like a peer like completely 785 00:42:51,000 --> 00:42:55,520 Speaker 1: socially unbounds like thing of capital that you, oh, well, okay, 786 00:42:55,560 --> 00:42:56,960 Speaker 1: if you lose your job here, you can just move 787 00:42:57,040 --> 00:43:00,279 Speaker 1: another firm. Right, So this makes sense side of the 788 00:43:00,280 --> 00:43:02,560 Speaker 1: context of Wall Street, because these people like like these 789 00:43:02,560 --> 00:43:04,520 Speaker 1: Wall Street firms they have they have like like thirty 790 00:43:04,960 --> 00:43:07,239 Speaker 1: turned over a year, and so all these people are 791 00:43:07,280 --> 00:43:09,319 Speaker 1: constantly being fired and shuffle onto the next job, and 792 00:43:09,360 --> 00:43:12,520 Speaker 1: fired and shuffle on to the next job, and so 793 00:43:12,600 --> 00:43:15,120 Speaker 1: you know, they so they they do they do this 794 00:43:15,239 --> 00:43:17,600 Speaker 1: very common sort of fallacy thing where they assume that 795 00:43:17,600 --> 00:43:19,160 Speaker 1: because this is the way that it works for them, 796 00:43:19,200 --> 00:43:20,759 Speaker 1: but this is the way it's gonna work for everyone else. 797 00:43:21,680 --> 00:43:23,160 Speaker 1: And then they genuine and a lot of these people 798 00:43:23,200 --> 00:43:25,279 Speaker 1: genuinely believe this. They're like, well, okay, so the things 799 00:43:25,280 --> 00:43:26,840 Speaker 1: we're gonna with, things that we're about to do, like 800 00:43:26,880 --> 00:43:28,839 Speaker 1: you know, when we destroy these workers entire lives, when 801 00:43:28,840 --> 00:43:30,759 Speaker 1: we you know, when we close their factories, when we 802 00:43:30,800 --> 00:43:34,719 Speaker 1: take their pensions, when we literally destroyed like every community 803 00:43:34,719 --> 00:43:37,000 Speaker 1: and every like thing that's every just in your lives, 804 00:43:37,000 --> 00:43:38,440 Speaker 1: they're like, oh, they'll just pick themselves up and go 805 00:43:38,440 --> 00:43:40,520 Speaker 1: to another place and they'll be fine, because you know, 806 00:43:40,600 --> 00:43:44,520 Speaker 1: if you're if you're you know, a Wall Street finance school, like, yeah, 807 00:43:44,760 --> 00:43:46,880 Speaker 1: that's that's what happens when you get fired every three months. 808 00:43:48,160 --> 00:43:52,400 Speaker 1: And so these people, these people basically take control of 809 00:43:53,880 --> 00:43:55,879 Speaker 1: the entire corporate sector. They do they do this very 810 00:43:55,960 --> 00:43:58,200 Speaker 1: quickly by you know, they start this and in the 811 00:43:58,200 --> 00:44:02,200 Speaker 1: sort of early eighties and uh, Milliken, the guy who 812 00:44:02,280 --> 00:44:07,120 Speaker 1: comes up with the junk bonds leveraged buyout scheme, like 813 00:44:07,200 --> 00:44:09,560 Speaker 1: he he goes to jail for I think securities fraud. 814 00:44:09,560 --> 00:44:11,640 Speaker 1: They get him for fraud, but it doesn't it a 815 00:44:11,680 --> 00:44:16,000 Speaker 1: lot of those guys got yeah, all of these people, 816 00:44:16,200 --> 00:44:19,160 Speaker 1: Like again, all of these people are just doing crime, 817 00:44:19,719 --> 00:44:24,160 Speaker 1: Like now, yeah, that's how finance standards, this is how 818 00:44:25,080 --> 00:44:27,040 Speaker 1: this is how the Action Park guy got kicked out. 819 00:44:27,040 --> 00:44:31,560 Speaker 1: You got kicked out doing all the same stuff. And again, 820 00:44:31,680 --> 00:44:33,439 Speaker 1: I want to put this out, like the stuff they're 821 00:44:33,480 --> 00:44:36,920 Speaker 1: doing is so illegal that like even the Reagan administration 822 00:44:37,080 --> 00:44:40,279 Speaker 1: was like, no, we have to prosecute you. Like it's like, 823 00:44:40,880 --> 00:44:44,440 Speaker 1: this is the this is the Ronald Reagan Justice Departments, 824 00:44:44,760 --> 00:44:49,799 Speaker 1: and they're like it was it was so much crib. Yeah, 825 00:44:49,840 --> 00:44:52,480 Speaker 1: it's it's really bad. And and you know the result 826 00:44:52,520 --> 00:44:57,799 Speaker 1: of this is just basically the total visceration of of 827 00:44:57,920 --> 00:45:02,319 Speaker 1: the working class, just like at and movements and you know, 828 00:45:02,360 --> 00:45:04,560 Speaker 1: all the left wing parties are sort of shaped by this. 829 00:45:04,680 --> 00:45:07,280 Speaker 1: And you know, and you know, we we've been focusing 830 00:45:07,320 --> 00:45:11,040 Speaker 1: on the US and UH and the UK here, but 831 00:45:11,120 --> 00:45:12,799 Speaker 1: this is not the only place this happens. And you know, 832 00:45:13,000 --> 00:45:16,040 Speaker 1: so one of the you know, like this, this happens, this, 833 00:45:16,040 --> 00:45:19,200 Speaker 1: this also starts happening like in socialist states. Um and 834 00:45:19,320 --> 00:45:21,360 Speaker 1: we talked about this in more detail in our interview 835 00:45:21,440 --> 00:45:25,600 Speaker 1: with Arnessa Kusutra about Bosnia, but one of the big 836 00:45:25,640 --> 00:45:29,359 Speaker 1: things that Miloshevik is doing in Yugoslavia. And when when 837 00:45:29,360 --> 00:45:31,320 Speaker 1: he takes power and he starts like actually being a 838 00:45:31,719 --> 00:45:34,120 Speaker 1: real political force in nink in eighties, is he starts 839 00:45:34,160 --> 00:45:37,279 Speaker 1: doing basically all of the same stuff that that that 840 00:45:37,320 --> 00:45:39,920 Speaker 1: reagaan at thatacher doing. He starts, he starts implemented shock adoction, 841 00:45:39,960 --> 00:45:45,200 Speaker 1: he starts privatization, he starts um like marketization, he starts 842 00:45:45,200 --> 00:45:48,480 Speaker 1: cutting studying, cutting price controls, he starts, he starts doing 843 00:45:49,200 --> 00:45:51,600 Speaker 1: I don't know if decollectivization is quite the right word, 844 00:45:51,680 --> 00:45:58,720 Speaker 1: because Yugoslavia's economic system is complicated and weirder than uh 845 00:45:58,800 --> 00:46:03,520 Speaker 1: the USSRS. But you know, he does this, and this 846 00:46:03,600 --> 00:46:05,880 Speaker 1: is one of the things that starts Yugoslavia's death spiral, 847 00:46:05,960 --> 00:46:09,160 Speaker 1: because you know, you have this enormous economic devastation from 848 00:46:09,520 --> 00:46:11,920 Speaker 1: the increase in oil prices for the oil shock, and 849 00:46:11,960 --> 00:46:15,440 Speaker 1: then that gets paired with, you know, the the economic 850 00:46:15,480 --> 00:46:18,960 Speaker 1: devastation from everyone losing their benefits, people losing de pensions, 851 00:46:19,800 --> 00:46:22,759 Speaker 1: these state own industries going under, getting privatized, um the 852 00:46:22,840 --> 00:46:30,200 Speaker 1: sort of like collective ownership structures imploding. And the product 853 00:46:30,239 --> 00:46:33,080 Speaker 1: of this is that you know, melos Vic looks at 854 00:46:33,120 --> 00:46:34,680 Speaker 1: this and it's like, Okay, how can I stay in power? 855 00:46:35,000 --> 00:46:37,279 Speaker 1: And his answer is just genocide on that. It's just 856 00:46:37,280 --> 00:46:41,160 Speaker 1: genocide on nationalism. And this sort of collapse or sort 857 00:46:41,200 --> 00:46:44,200 Speaker 1: of state in social life is you know, and and 858 00:46:44,239 --> 00:46:47,319 Speaker 1: the leaders at the top realizing that they can weaponize 859 00:46:47,520 --> 00:46:49,920 Speaker 1: sort of nationalism is one of the things at least 860 00:46:49,960 --> 00:46:53,319 Speaker 1: directly to the Boston and genocide. Now, towards the end 861 00:46:53,360 --> 00:46:56,640 Speaker 1: of the eighties, the whole Soviet block starts coming apart um. Yeah, 862 00:46:56,680 --> 00:47:00,400 Speaker 1: you know, the Berlin Wall falls and eventually, you know, 863 00:47:00,440 --> 00:47:03,640 Speaker 1: the Soviet Union dissolves, and the people who are trying 864 00:47:03,640 --> 00:47:06,920 Speaker 1: to end the Soviet Union, the things that they want 865 00:47:07,000 --> 00:47:10,960 Speaker 1: basically are like freedom of speech, uh, the ability to 866 00:47:11,040 --> 00:47:16,120 Speaker 1: like leave the country, and basically like Scandinavian style social democracy. 867 00:47:16,560 --> 00:47:20,879 Speaker 1: And it was like reasonable from the Soviet Union. Yeah yeah, 868 00:47:20,880 --> 00:47:23,080 Speaker 1: and you know, I mean these these people like you know, 869 00:47:23,160 --> 00:47:27,000 Speaker 1: this is these you know, like they they they wanted 870 00:47:27,040 --> 00:47:30,760 Speaker 1: to live in Scandinavia and instead they got hey, welcome 871 00:47:30,840 --> 00:47:37,919 Speaker 1: to the US, but like even worse. Yeah, and so yeah, yeah, yeah, 872 00:47:38,040 --> 00:47:40,279 Speaker 1: it's it's really bad. And you know what they get 873 00:47:40,360 --> 00:47:43,799 Speaker 1: said is just these this enormous way of privatizations, Uh, 874 00:47:43,840 --> 00:47:48,279 Speaker 1: the worldfare state just vanishes and you know this this 875 00:47:48,440 --> 00:47:51,880 Speaker 1: causes basically like total societal collapse. Um. Like one of 876 00:47:51,880 --> 00:47:53,920 Speaker 1: my one of my professors, and this this happens basically 877 00:47:53,920 --> 00:47:56,680 Speaker 1: across the whole Soviet block. One of professors in college, 878 00:47:56,719 --> 00:48:00,840 Speaker 1: and I think she was fumble Gary. Um. She she 879 00:48:00,880 --> 00:48:03,120 Speaker 1: told me about how dream the nineties like when she 880 00:48:03,160 --> 00:48:05,280 Speaker 1: when she was growing up, like she and her family 881 00:48:05,320 --> 00:48:07,239 Speaker 1: would just the only thing they had to eat was 882 00:48:07,320 --> 00:48:09,640 Speaker 1: raw millet because there's no food. There's there's literally no 883 00:48:09,680 --> 00:48:12,680 Speaker 1: food anywhere. The entire economy is collapsed. Nobody has any money, 884 00:48:12,800 --> 00:48:14,400 Speaker 1: and so you know, I was like, well, okay, everyone 885 00:48:14,480 --> 00:48:17,040 Speaker 1: just eating raw grain because you know that that's what 886 00:48:17,280 --> 00:48:19,759 Speaker 1: that's that's the only thing you can you can you 887 00:48:19,800 --> 00:48:23,399 Speaker 1: have to survive. And you know, it's this it's it's 888 00:48:23,440 --> 00:48:26,640 Speaker 1: literally so bad that in Russia it causes the single 889 00:48:26,719 --> 00:48:29,719 Speaker 1: largest life expectancy drop in post World War Europe. It's 890 00:48:29,719 --> 00:48:31,719 Speaker 1: like like it's the life expected to decrease is about 891 00:48:31,719 --> 00:48:35,680 Speaker 1: like four years because so many people die from this. Um. 892 00:48:35,719 --> 00:48:36,960 Speaker 1: You know, and on one of the one of the 893 00:48:36,960 --> 00:48:41,719 Speaker 1: ways this happens is that there's so the way they're 894 00:48:41,760 --> 00:48:43,600 Speaker 1: they're going to deal with like the state owned industry 895 00:48:43,640 --> 00:48:46,719 Speaker 1: thing is they they okay? And I've never been able 896 00:48:46,719 --> 00:48:48,759 Speaker 1: to figure this figure out if it was like they 897 00:48:48,880 --> 00:48:52,480 Speaker 1: they actually took Murray Rothbar's plan for this, or if 898 00:48:52,480 --> 00:48:56,440 Speaker 1: they just independently developed were a Rothbar's plan for for 899 00:48:56,440 --> 00:48:58,239 Speaker 1: for dissolving state own the industries, which is give like 900 00:48:58,320 --> 00:49:00,360 Speaker 1: everyone who worked in it a share of the company. 901 00:49:01,960 --> 00:49:03,960 Speaker 1: And so they do this right, and everyone has these shares, 902 00:49:04,000 --> 00:49:06,319 Speaker 1: but these shares are just like paper, and you can't 903 00:49:06,360 --> 00:49:08,640 Speaker 1: eat this paper. So a bunch of sort of like 904 00:49:09,160 --> 00:49:11,759 Speaker 1: organized crime guys and the people who have been you know, 905 00:49:11,840 --> 00:49:13,520 Speaker 1: like like the sort of the people who've been richer 906 00:49:13,760 --> 00:49:16,440 Speaker 1: or like had been sort of connected party people who 907 00:49:16,440 --> 00:49:18,279 Speaker 1: were just like I'm just gonna cash out start, you know, 908 00:49:18,360 --> 00:49:21,120 Speaker 1: just just going through cities and they're they'll you know, 909 00:49:21,120 --> 00:49:22,719 Speaker 1: they'll be like, okay, we'll give you a pair of gene, 910 00:49:22,800 --> 00:49:24,080 Speaker 1: like we'll give you some food if you give us 911 00:49:24,120 --> 00:49:25,759 Speaker 1: their share, and you know, everyone people just give up 912 00:49:25,760 --> 00:49:28,920 Speaker 1: their shares. And the result of this is that like 913 00:49:29,600 --> 00:49:32,400 Speaker 1: just every industry at Russia immediately falls under the control 914 00:49:32,400 --> 00:49:36,000 Speaker 1: of just just like absolutely psychotic oligarchs. And you know, 915 00:49:36,080 --> 00:49:38,400 Speaker 1: the the West definitely sharing this on that this this 916 00:49:38,440 --> 00:49:43,000 Speaker 1: whole process is engineered by just a bunch of just 917 00:49:43,080 --> 00:49:48,520 Speaker 1: like pure neoliberal ghoul like Harvards, like weird Harvard grads 918 00:49:48,520 --> 00:49:50,200 Speaker 1: who gets sent into Russia and who are like, oh, 919 00:49:50,200 --> 00:49:52,040 Speaker 1: we're gonna we're gonna run the Russian economy and we're 920 00:49:52,040 --> 00:49:56,920 Speaker 1: gonna like fix everything, and they just just absolutely destroy it. 921 00:49:57,040 --> 00:49:59,799 Speaker 1: And you know, the West has the thing whether they're 922 00:49:59,800 --> 00:50:02,200 Speaker 1: they're you know, they're they're they're cheering on this whole process. 923 00:50:02,200 --> 00:50:04,480 Speaker 1: They have this thing about how like everyone has to 924 00:50:04,480 --> 00:50:06,799 Speaker 1: do belt tightening and it's you're gonna suffer for a 925 00:50:06,800 --> 00:50:09,760 Speaker 1: bit and it'll all be worth it. And meanwhile Boris 926 00:50:09,840 --> 00:50:13,160 Speaker 1: Jelson is just completely drunk off his asked like shelling 927 00:50:13,200 --> 00:50:17,040 Speaker 1: the parliament with tanks, while like the U. S. Press 928 00:50:17,080 --> 00:50:20,840 Speaker 1: is cheering, and you know there's the sort of like 929 00:50:20,960 --> 00:50:23,840 Speaker 1: you know, the tragedy this is like it's not really 930 00:50:23,840 --> 00:50:27,279 Speaker 1: like Russia got like more free, you know, like they 931 00:50:27,360 --> 00:50:30,600 Speaker 1: still they still torture and disappeared anarchists and secret prisons, 932 00:50:30,640 --> 00:50:34,480 Speaker 1: like you know, there's there They still just like randomly 933 00:50:34,520 --> 00:50:40,200 Speaker 1: assassinate political dissidence with through increasingly bizarre like poison bullshit. 934 00:50:40,600 --> 00:50:45,799 Speaker 1: Yeah they sure do. Yeah, but you know, the big 935 00:50:45,840 --> 00:50:47,880 Speaker 1: difference is that a bunch of Harvard grads made an 936 00:50:48,000 --> 00:50:50,640 Speaker 1: indescribable amount of money. You now, no one has any pensions, 937 00:50:51,239 --> 00:50:52,960 Speaker 1: um and there's there's this is great like this is 938 00:50:53,000 --> 00:50:55,680 Speaker 1: a great Russian joke from this period that goes he's 939 00:50:55,680 --> 00:50:58,120 Speaker 1: talking about the communists. Everything they ever told us about 940 00:50:58,120 --> 00:51:00,359 Speaker 1: communism was alive, but everything they ever told is about 941 00:51:00,360 --> 00:51:05,239 Speaker 1: capitalism was absolutely true. Yeah, that's that seems to be 942 00:51:05,440 --> 00:51:09,640 Speaker 1: roughly accurate. Yeah, it's basically true. And you know, and 943 00:51:09,640 --> 00:51:12,320 Speaker 1: and the product is sort of neoliberalism coming to Russia 944 00:51:12,440 --> 00:51:14,720 Speaker 1: is that by by by the end of the nineties, 945 00:51:14,800 --> 00:51:18,640 Speaker 1: Russia is just literally controlled by the mob and these 946 00:51:18,960 --> 00:51:22,640 Speaker 1: monsters oligarchs. And Putin's campaign is like, I am better 947 00:51:22,719 --> 00:51:24,920 Speaker 1: than the mob, and I will bring them. I will 948 00:51:24,920 --> 00:51:26,799 Speaker 1: bring the mob and the oligarchs under control. And this 949 00:51:26,840 --> 00:51:28,520 Speaker 1: is you know that, this is how Putin takes power 950 00:51:28,560 --> 00:51:30,360 Speaker 1: because and he has failed to hold up to that 951 00:51:30,400 --> 00:51:35,719 Speaker 1: probless to be fair, to be fair, the you are 952 00:51:35,800 --> 00:51:40,200 Speaker 1: significantly less likely to just like randomly be kidnapped in ransoms. 953 00:51:40,239 --> 00:51:43,640 Speaker 1: Not me, No I have, I have wrote for a website. 954 00:51:43,680 --> 00:51:46,319 Speaker 1: He does not, like I cannot That's true. That's true. Yeah, 955 00:51:46,719 --> 00:51:50,880 Speaker 1: if yeah, if you kiss off Putin, you might be 956 00:51:50,880 --> 00:51:52,920 Speaker 1: held for ransom. But it's like, you know, the number 957 00:51:52,960 --> 00:51:55,920 Speaker 1: of random people who don't do anything political, who are 958 00:51:55,960 --> 00:51:58,920 Speaker 1: just like randomly held for ransom did kind of go 959 00:51:59,000 --> 00:52:01,600 Speaker 1: down a bit, and like, Okay, that's I mean, all right, 960 00:52:01,600 --> 00:52:05,400 Speaker 1: all right, you gotta hand it to Putin, Okay, I 961 00:52:05,520 --> 00:52:08,480 Speaker 1: give him. Yeah, well, okay. The thing on hand to 962 00:52:08,520 --> 00:52:11,080 Speaker 1: Putin is that he restored the state's monopoly on violence. 963 00:52:11,239 --> 00:52:17,839 Speaker 1: Now that's not a good thing now, but he did it. Yeah, 964 00:52:17,920 --> 00:52:19,359 Speaker 1: he well he did it. And you know this this 965 00:52:19,880 --> 00:52:22,000 Speaker 1: was the basis of sort of because his power and 966 00:52:22,000 --> 00:52:24,879 Speaker 1: political support was that and sort of nationalism. And this 967 00:52:24,960 --> 00:52:27,319 Speaker 1: is like you know, and and there's always just the 968 00:52:27,360 --> 00:52:29,960 Speaker 1: sort of liberal line on on on Putin. He's like, 969 00:52:30,040 --> 00:52:32,279 Speaker 1: oh he's an SKGB guy, and like oh, it's still 970 00:52:32,280 --> 00:52:36,120 Speaker 1: communism again, and it's like no, like no, no, and 971 00:52:36,280 --> 00:52:38,960 Speaker 1: that this this brings me back to the single thing 972 00:52:39,120 --> 00:52:42,000 Speaker 1: that I need everyone to understand about need liberalism, which 973 00:52:42,040 --> 00:52:44,160 Speaker 1: is that near liberalism does not decrease the size of 974 00:52:44,200 --> 00:52:47,000 Speaker 1: the state. Like there there were more there were more 975 00:52:47,080 --> 00:52:49,919 Speaker 1: bureaucrats now in the Russian state than there were under 976 00:52:49,960 --> 00:52:53,360 Speaker 1: the Soviet Union. No, and it definitely in order for 977 00:52:53,360 --> 00:52:57,880 Speaker 1: it to operate, it definitely extends drastically like the hands 978 00:52:57,920 --> 00:53:01,840 Speaker 1: of the states in terms of like like like military, police, 979 00:53:01,880 --> 00:53:04,439 Speaker 1: law enforcement, like all those things. In order to keep 980 00:53:04,560 --> 00:53:08,120 Speaker 1: this weird market driven thing alive, you need to have 981 00:53:08,200 --> 00:53:11,319 Speaker 1: a lot of like enforcement on people who don't have 982 00:53:11,760 --> 00:53:14,239 Speaker 1: but both both people who like actually make money and 983 00:53:14,440 --> 00:53:16,680 Speaker 1: but most of the people who don't make very much money. 984 00:53:17,320 --> 00:53:20,279 Speaker 1: So it increases not only like the bureaucratic state, but 985 00:53:20,320 --> 00:53:23,239 Speaker 1: also like the enforcement armor of the state. Yeah, and 986 00:53:23,280 --> 00:53:25,520 Speaker 1: I think there's there's there's there's there's two interesting ways 987 00:53:25,520 --> 00:53:30,120 Speaker 1: this happens. One is that, well, okay, there's three ways happens. 988 00:53:30,160 --> 00:53:32,239 Speaker 1: One is that anytime someone says they're gonna they're gonna 989 00:53:32,280 --> 00:53:35,000 Speaker 1: do deregulation, like deregulation does not mean that they're going 990 00:53:35,040 --> 00:53:37,040 Speaker 1: to decrease the number of regulations there are. What it 991 00:53:37,080 --> 00:53:41,480 Speaker 1: means is that the regulations are bad for this company, 992 00:53:41,680 --> 00:53:43,359 Speaker 1: and so they're they're going they're going to they're going 993 00:53:43,400 --> 00:53:45,319 Speaker 1: to add more regulations in a way that is good 994 00:53:45,360 --> 00:53:48,360 Speaker 1: for this company. And the thing is this actually this 995 00:53:48,480 --> 00:53:50,760 Speaker 1: you know, this net increases the size of the state 996 00:53:50,840 --> 00:53:52,560 Speaker 1: right there, They're not like they're not like they're not 997 00:53:52,760 --> 00:53:55,799 Speaker 1: decreasing the number of laws or whatever. They're you know, 998 00:53:55,840 --> 00:53:59,839 Speaker 1: they're they're they're they're they're writing like incredibly like absolutely 999 00:53:59,840 --> 00:54:04,120 Speaker 1: in comprehensible banking legislation that like, let's banks charge like 1000 00:54:04,200 --> 00:54:07,719 Speaker 1: interest rates that previously only organized crime could do. And 1001 00:54:07,760 --> 00:54:10,080 Speaker 1: then there's there's another aspect of this, which is that, 1002 00:54:10,200 --> 00:54:13,880 Speaker 1: you know, so the welfare that remains right, you know, 1003 00:54:13,880 --> 00:54:16,799 Speaker 1: it becomes means tested, and you know that means that 1004 00:54:16,800 --> 00:54:19,520 Speaker 1: there's so you have the bureaucracy right that like gives 1005 00:54:19,560 --> 00:54:22,399 Speaker 1: you things, and then you have another bureaucracy on top 1006 00:54:22,440 --> 00:54:24,520 Speaker 1: of that that decides whether or not you should be 1007 00:54:24,560 --> 00:54:26,080 Speaker 1: allowed to do the thing it puts you. You know, 1008 00:54:26,080 --> 00:54:29,719 Speaker 1: there's this this is just just this like process of 1009 00:54:29,760 --> 00:54:33,040 Speaker 1: abject humiliation that you have to go through to receive anything, yeah, 1010 00:54:33,120 --> 00:54:34,840 Speaker 1: from the state. And it's like and that sucks. And 1011 00:54:34,880 --> 00:54:38,600 Speaker 1: then because that is so awful, there's another layer of bureaucracy, 1012 00:54:38,640 --> 00:54:41,200 Speaker 1: which is like social workers and stuff, whose job it 1013 00:54:41,280 --> 00:54:43,400 Speaker 1: is in large part is to help you bypass the 1014 00:54:43,800 --> 00:54:47,120 Speaker 1: second layer of bureaucracy. So that creates another layer. Yeah, 1015 00:54:47,160 --> 00:54:50,600 Speaker 1: there's there's there's there's so much. Yeah it is, and 1016 00:54:50,640 --> 00:54:52,000 Speaker 1: but but this is you know this, this this is 1017 00:54:52,040 --> 00:54:54,280 Speaker 1: one of the things that the liberals do, which is okay, 1018 00:54:54,280 --> 00:54:56,000 Speaker 1: So you know, you you have you have you have 1019 00:54:56,080 --> 00:54:58,520 Speaker 1: your two doctrines. Right, you have the thing they actually believe, 1020 00:54:58,600 --> 00:55:02,160 Speaker 1: which is enormous bureaucrat military state, and then you have 1021 00:55:02,200 --> 00:55:03,960 Speaker 1: the thing they claim to believe, which is, oh, the 1022 00:55:04,000 --> 00:55:07,960 Speaker 1: state needs to be smaller, state needs to be decentralized, 1023 00:55:07,960 --> 00:55:11,400 Speaker 1: the state, shouldn't you fear in the market. And so whenever, whenever, 1024 00:55:11,520 --> 00:55:13,799 Speaker 1: like the things that they do get too bad, they 1025 00:55:13,800 --> 00:55:16,200 Speaker 1: have this other thing that can turn to you to go, oh, yeah, 1026 00:55:16,239 --> 00:55:18,440 Speaker 1: the reason there's too much bureaucracy is because the state's 1027 00:55:18,440 --> 00:55:20,359 Speaker 1: getting involved too much. Elect us and we will get 1028 00:55:20,400 --> 00:55:22,200 Speaker 1: rid of the bureaucracy. And then you elect them and 1029 00:55:22,200 --> 00:55:23,879 Speaker 1: they make the state bigger, and you know, you get 1030 00:55:23,880 --> 00:55:27,279 Speaker 1: this started perpetual cycle. I think the reason people get 1031 00:55:27,280 --> 00:55:31,839 Speaker 1: confused by this is that when when people when most 1032 00:55:31,840 --> 00:55:34,560 Speaker 1: people think of the state, right, they think of the 1033 00:55:34,600 --> 00:55:36,680 Speaker 1: state is something that provide services. You know that the 1034 00:55:36,760 --> 00:55:41,280 Speaker 1: quintessential thing of state does is build roads roads. Yeah, 1035 00:55:41,360 --> 00:55:42,880 Speaker 1: and you know, and you know, when we can talk 1036 00:55:42,920 --> 00:55:46,880 Speaker 1: about how like the US building roads probably doomed the 1037 00:55:47,040 --> 00:55:50,319 Speaker 1: entire earth climate change. Oh yeah, no, like the way 1038 00:55:50,320 --> 00:55:52,719 Speaker 1: that we've done roads around cars and the type of 1039 00:55:52,719 --> 00:55:55,919 Speaker 1: things we make roads. Yeah, it's horrible, but yeah it's awful. Yeah, 1040 00:55:56,000 --> 00:55:58,240 Speaker 1: but but there there's there's there's another thing about roads 1041 00:55:58,239 --> 00:56:02,319 Speaker 1: which is interesting, which is that roads are you know, 1042 00:56:02,360 --> 00:56:05,040 Speaker 1: so the original reason why states built roads was they 1043 00:56:05,040 --> 00:56:07,960 Speaker 1: can move armies around. And and this comes back to 1044 00:56:08,040 --> 00:56:11,640 Speaker 1: the core of what a state is. Right, there is 1045 00:56:11,680 --> 00:56:14,640 Speaker 1: nothing in the actual core definition of a state, which 1046 00:56:14,680 --> 00:56:18,000 Speaker 1: is basically it's a hierarch couple of localized monopoly on violence. Right, 1047 00:56:18,360 --> 00:56:22,279 Speaker 1: there's nothing in that that has that like says at 1048 00:56:22,320 --> 00:56:24,279 Speaker 1: all the state has to do anything for you, right 1049 00:56:24,760 --> 00:56:27,400 Speaker 1: like if if you know, if if two guys with 1050 00:56:27,440 --> 00:56:30,759 Speaker 1: guns show up and sees a place, right, they can 1051 00:56:30,760 --> 00:56:33,240 Speaker 1: create a state. They don't have to give you anything. 1052 00:56:33,640 --> 00:56:37,200 Speaker 1: The state is the fundamental core of the state is 1053 00:56:37,239 --> 00:56:39,400 Speaker 1: just a bunch of armed people who can order people around. 1054 00:56:40,120 --> 00:56:42,719 Speaker 1: And you know, but people people sort of can people 1055 00:56:42,719 --> 00:56:46,919 Speaker 1: sort of confuse the two and the neoliberalisms entire thing 1056 00:56:47,120 --> 00:56:49,480 Speaker 1: is increasing the increasing the military. You know that the 1057 00:56:49,480 --> 00:56:51,160 Speaker 1: part of the state that takes things from you at 1058 00:56:51,160 --> 00:56:54,480 Speaker 1: gunpoint and decreasing the part of the states that like 1059 00:56:54,640 --> 00:56:58,560 Speaker 1: gives you things. And you know, one of one of 1060 00:56:58,640 --> 00:57:00,960 Speaker 1: the there's one of one of the other things that 1061 00:57:00,960 --> 00:57:06,160 Speaker 1: that happens in this period is that labor increasingly stops 1062 00:57:06,200 --> 00:57:10,880 Speaker 1: being about making or doing anything and just becomes pure 1063 00:57:10,880 --> 00:57:18,160 Speaker 1: guard labor. So, you know, the the the last big 1064 00:57:18,280 --> 00:57:21,560 Speaker 1: neoliberal project that doesn't really get talked about as a 1065 00:57:21,600 --> 00:57:25,120 Speaker 1: deliberal project ever, is that mass incarceration is a deliberal project. 1066 00:57:25,400 --> 00:57:29,360 Speaker 1: It started under under Nixon and under Carter. But you know, 1067 00:57:29,400 --> 00:57:31,760 Speaker 1: so when when Reagan takes office that the American prison 1068 00:57:31,800 --> 00:57:36,000 Speaker 1: population is about three thousand. When he leaves office, he 1069 00:57:36,040 --> 00:57:39,800 Speaker 1: has basically doubled it to uh six, seven thousand. We 1070 00:57:39,840 --> 00:57:42,240 Speaker 1: have now more than doubled it again. And you know 1071 00:57:42,320 --> 00:57:44,600 Speaker 1: it it basically it you know when whenever you get 1072 00:57:44,640 --> 00:57:47,080 Speaker 1: a large nealiberal administration that they you know, they double it, right, 1073 00:57:47,800 --> 00:57:53,160 Speaker 1: it basically doubles again drained bedween the Clinton administration. You know, 1074 00:57:53,240 --> 00:57:56,320 Speaker 1: it keeps accelerating and you know this is this is 1075 00:57:56,360 --> 00:58:00,520 Speaker 1: this is the other thing that that neoliberalism brings in, 1076 00:58:00,560 --> 00:58:03,640 Speaker 1: which is that Okay, so neil libils and produces this 1077 00:58:03,720 --> 00:58:06,440 Speaker 1: enormous population of people who don't have any jobs, have 1078 00:58:06,480 --> 00:58:08,960 Speaker 1: no opportunities whatsoever, are just screwed. So what do you 1079 00:58:08,960 --> 00:58:12,880 Speaker 1: do with them? And the answer is slavery. And basically 1080 00:58:12,920 --> 00:58:16,480 Speaker 1: everywhere that you stay using neoliberalism, you see massive increases 1081 00:58:16,480 --> 00:58:19,600 Speaker 1: into prison population. Espect like the US is by far 1082 00:58:19,680 --> 00:58:21,800 Speaker 1: the worst example of this, but this happens. You know 1083 00:58:21,840 --> 00:58:26,760 Speaker 1: that the seven is basically across the world and what 1084 00:58:26,760 --> 00:58:29,720 Speaker 1: what what you see is in place of you know, 1085 00:58:29,760 --> 00:58:31,720 Speaker 1: it's this is this one of the things that drives 1086 00:58:31,760 --> 00:58:33,919 Speaker 1: politics in sort of in rural reasons in the US, 1087 00:58:34,520 --> 00:58:36,160 Speaker 1: which is that you have these places that used to 1088 00:58:36,200 --> 00:58:38,520 Speaker 1: sort of have industry is used to particularly like coal mining, 1089 00:58:38,760 --> 00:58:42,640 Speaker 1: things like that, and it gets replaced by prisons because prisons, 1090 00:58:42,840 --> 00:58:44,760 Speaker 1: you know, having a prison in your sort of rural 1091 00:58:44,840 --> 00:58:48,040 Speaker 1: town is is the only way to sort of ensure 1092 00:58:48,120 --> 00:58:50,000 Speaker 1: that you have a large economic base. And so you know, 1093 00:58:50,040 --> 00:58:53,960 Speaker 1: like local local city councils are you know, incredibly pro 1094 00:58:54,040 --> 00:58:55,480 Speaker 1: prison because it's like, oh, well, the president will bring 1095 00:58:55,560 --> 00:58:59,920 Speaker 1: your jobs and you know, this means that okay, so 1096 00:59:00,000 --> 00:59:01,720 Speaker 1: so so the people a lot of people who are 1097 00:59:01,720 --> 00:59:05,919 Speaker 1: prison guards are just you know, fascists, but there's also 1098 00:59:05,960 --> 00:59:10,439 Speaker 1: people who are prison guards who normally would just be workers. Yeah, no, absolutely, yeah, 1099 00:59:10,440 --> 00:59:11,720 Speaker 1: who have just been sort of but you know, there's 1100 00:59:11,760 --> 00:59:14,680 Speaker 1: nothing left right and they they're fighting, uh Mike Davis 1101 00:59:14,680 --> 00:59:18,240 Speaker 1: talks about this, that they're fighting. This just incredibly desperate, 1102 00:59:18,920 --> 00:59:21,680 Speaker 1: ferocious struggle to like stay in the places they love 1103 00:59:21,760 --> 00:59:23,480 Speaker 1: and stay with their families, and stay with their friends, 1104 00:59:23,480 --> 00:59:26,160 Speaker 1: stay with their communities. And the only way they can 1105 00:59:26,200 --> 00:59:28,880 Speaker 1: do this is, you know, by becoming part of this 1106 00:59:29,080 --> 00:59:33,120 Speaker 1: like just the neo liberal health state. And you know 1107 00:59:33,320 --> 00:59:37,160 Speaker 1: they don't like it either, but that's you know, that's 1108 00:59:37,160 --> 00:59:39,640 Speaker 1: what the liberalism is, right, is you no longer have 1109 00:59:39,680 --> 00:59:42,400 Speaker 1: a job. The only job available to you is picking 1110 00:59:42,440 --> 00:59:44,840 Speaker 1: up a gun and pointing it at someone who is 1111 00:59:44,920 --> 00:59:49,600 Speaker 1: exactly the same as you, except you know, they've been 1112 00:59:49,960 --> 00:59:52,040 Speaker 1: thrown into the slavery part of the system instead of 1113 00:59:52,080 --> 00:59:53,760 Speaker 1: the people holding the guns at the slavery part of 1114 00:59:53,800 --> 00:59:56,880 Speaker 1: the system. And one of the things that that happens 1115 00:59:56,880 --> 01:00:01,800 Speaker 1: a lot of people just really conflu late about what 1116 01:00:01,920 --> 01:00:06,640 Speaker 1: neoliberalism is they can use it libertarianism and they're not 1117 01:00:06,680 --> 01:00:09,520 Speaker 1: the same thing. And and this this is a condus 1118 01:00:09,560 --> 01:00:12,800 Speaker 1: is a very confusing problem because well, a the term 1119 01:00:12,840 --> 01:00:14,919 Speaker 1: nea liberals don't get used in the US all that much. 1120 01:00:15,600 --> 01:00:18,200 Speaker 1: When people use it, they usually use it to mean 1121 01:00:18,440 --> 01:00:22,320 Speaker 1: something bad. And that's just about it. Yeah, yeah, and 1122 01:00:22,320 --> 01:00:25,280 Speaker 1: and you know and and also another part of the 1123 01:00:25,280 --> 01:00:27,680 Speaker 1: problem is that even if you go into like the 1124 01:00:27,720 --> 01:00:30,040 Speaker 1: Montpellion Society, right, which you know this is this is 1125 01:00:30,080 --> 01:00:32,160 Speaker 1: this is the arch new liberal institution, and it's just 1126 01:00:32,440 --> 01:00:36,160 Speaker 1: like basically like a think tank generator, there are there 1127 01:00:36,160 --> 01:00:38,280 Speaker 1: are libertarians in there. There there are there are narco 1128 01:00:38,360 --> 01:00:42,760 Speaker 1: capitalists in the Montpellion Society, and the one Pellion Society 1129 01:00:42,800 --> 01:00:45,080 Speaker 1: is fighting this sort of constant internal battle between the 1130 01:00:45,080 --> 01:00:47,640 Speaker 1: people who actually believe the things that they say publicly, 1131 01:00:47,680 --> 01:00:49,360 Speaker 1: like you actually believe you should have a small state 1132 01:00:49,400 --> 01:00:52,400 Speaker 1: blah blah blah blah, and the people who understand that 1133 01:00:52,560 --> 01:00:55,920 Speaker 1: all the small states stuff is just like stuff you 1134 01:00:55,960 --> 01:00:58,280 Speaker 1: tell the masses in order to get them to like 1135 01:00:58,440 --> 01:01:01,600 Speaker 1: slash welfare things while you just hire more cops. And 1136 01:01:01,920 --> 01:01:06,120 Speaker 1: probably the single biggest distinction between the libertarians and and 1137 01:01:06,240 --> 01:01:09,240 Speaker 1: the New Liberals is about border control. Now, if if 1138 01:01:09,440 --> 01:01:11,800 Speaker 1: you listen to New Liberals on Twitter, or you listen 1139 01:01:11,840 --> 01:01:14,920 Speaker 1: to Neil, or you listen to libertarians, right, capitalism is 1140 01:01:14,920 --> 01:01:16,600 Speaker 1: supposed to have open borders, is supposed to be free 1141 01:01:16,640 --> 01:01:20,840 Speaker 1: moving to people, etcetera, etcetera, etcetera. Um, if you look 1142 01:01:20,880 --> 01:01:24,240 Speaker 1: at literally everything every neo liberal government has ever done, 1143 01:01:24,280 --> 01:01:27,200 Speaker 1: it's exactly the opposite. It's they don't like that. Yeah, yeah, 1144 01:01:27,240 --> 01:01:29,200 Speaker 1: they hit it. And and and you know this whole thing 1145 01:01:29,280 --> 01:01:33,080 Speaker 1: about like oh you need workers to uh yeah, if 1146 01:01:33,160 --> 01:01:34,520 Speaker 1: if you, if you, if you let workers from other 1147 01:01:34,520 --> 01:01:37,680 Speaker 1: countries go into into the US, like oh they'll they'll, 1148 01:01:37,720 --> 01:01:42,280 Speaker 1: they'll decrease wages, blah blah blah blah. So the period 1149 01:01:42,320 --> 01:01:44,720 Speaker 1: in which the US like had strong unions and strong 1150 01:01:44,760 --> 01:01:46,400 Speaker 1: wages and stuff, with the period where there was like 1151 01:01:46,440 --> 01:01:48,720 Speaker 1: basically no militarization on the Mexican border. I mean there 1152 01:01:48,760 --> 01:01:50,840 Speaker 1: were some and you know there there's there's there's a 1153 01:01:50,880 --> 01:01:55,040 Speaker 1: build up sort of dream the Vietnam War and they're 1154 01:01:55,040 --> 01:01:58,520 Speaker 1: they're they're sort of been one back like around election 1155 01:01:58,600 --> 01:02:02,120 Speaker 1: revolution era. But you know it's it's nothing. It's literally 1156 01:02:02,120 --> 01:02:05,560 Speaker 1: nothing like it is today. Today. The US border is 1157 01:02:05,600 --> 01:02:09,720 Speaker 1: this just absolute hellscape. Um. I mean just like there's 1158 01:02:09,760 --> 01:02:11,760 Speaker 1: there's there's this enormous perimeter of the U. S border 1159 01:02:11,800 --> 01:02:14,320 Speaker 1: where just the Constitution doesn't apply, where like the Bill 1160 01:02:14,320 --> 01:02:16,680 Speaker 1: of Rights just doesn't exist. If if if you're, if you're, 1161 01:02:16,680 --> 01:02:18,040 Speaker 1: if you're close enough to the border, it's just it's 1162 01:02:18,040 --> 01:02:21,200 Speaker 1: all suspended. Uh, it's not entirely supended, but like basically 1163 01:02:21,240 --> 01:02:23,200 Speaker 1: the border patrol can just do whatever the funk they 1164 01:02:23,240 --> 01:02:25,720 Speaker 1: want to you, and you know, like this, this, this 1165 01:02:25,760 --> 01:02:27,200 Speaker 1: is this is how the border patrol was able to 1166 01:02:27,240 --> 01:02:29,520 Speaker 1: be deployed in Portland, right because Portland's technically on the border, 1167 01:02:29,520 --> 01:02:34,040 Speaker 1: and the border patrol has increased power is there and 1168 01:02:34,120 --> 01:02:38,400 Speaker 1: the actual goal is so people people are always going 1169 01:02:38,440 --> 01:02:41,560 Speaker 1: to move, right, And what the new labels figured out 1170 01:02:41,640 --> 01:02:45,560 Speaker 1: was that you know, these these these enormous market labor populations, 1171 01:02:47,040 --> 01:02:48,840 Speaker 1: the best way you can exploit them as if they're 1172 01:02:48,880 --> 01:02:53,280 Speaker 1: just absolutely terrorized by just this, you know, an incredible 1173 01:02:53,400 --> 01:02:59,120 Speaker 1: sort of ferociously hostile, murderous just border regime run by fascists. 1174 01:03:00,280 --> 01:03:03,760 Speaker 1: And it works, like they kill, they kill enormous numbers 1175 01:03:03,760 --> 01:03:06,040 Speaker 1: of people, They do horrible things, They put people with 1176 01:03:06,080 --> 01:03:11,480 Speaker 1: concentration camps, they sterilize people they like, they sexually assault children, 1177 01:03:11,720 --> 01:03:17,479 Speaker 1: they disappear people they like, still people's babies. And this 1178 01:03:17,560 --> 01:03:20,160 Speaker 1: is you know, this is what neoliberalism is, right, This, 1179 01:03:20,280 --> 01:03:22,000 Speaker 1: this is what it actually is in practice. This is 1180 01:03:22,120 --> 01:03:25,600 Speaker 1: you know, like, this is the this is the this 1181 01:03:25,680 --> 01:03:30,680 Speaker 1: is the policy that has imposed money liberal states. And 1182 01:03:30,720 --> 01:03:32,400 Speaker 1: I think I want to end on that, and I 1183 01:03:32,440 --> 01:03:36,600 Speaker 1: want to end on a note about what the quintessential 1184 01:03:37,400 --> 01:03:40,880 Speaker 1: sort of figure of neoliberalism is, because I think, you know, 1185 01:03:41,040 --> 01:03:45,920 Speaker 1: in the neoliberals mind, right, the quintessential neoliberal figure is 1186 01:03:46,000 --> 01:03:50,000 Speaker 1: like the small entrepreneur who's like guy who's you know, 1187 01:03:50,240 --> 01:03:53,680 Speaker 1: turned their own creativity and like harnessed it into like 1188 01:03:53,840 --> 01:03:56,520 Speaker 1: the ability to create value, and you know, they're creating 1189 01:03:56,560 --> 01:03:59,280 Speaker 1: things for the world and they're reaching themselves. And I 1190 01:03:59,280 --> 01:04:01,520 Speaker 1: think a lot of just think of it as like 1191 01:04:02,400 --> 01:04:05,600 Speaker 1: the quintessional The liberal is you know, a Chicago, Chicago 1192 01:04:05,680 --> 01:04:10,320 Speaker 1: School of Economics person. Yeah, and I want to suggest 1193 01:04:10,440 --> 01:04:14,000 Speaker 1: that they quit. The single quintessential like neo liberal figure 1194 01:04:15,080 --> 01:04:18,560 Speaker 1: is a riot cop, and specifically specifically that the you know, 1195 01:04:19,760 --> 01:04:22,479 Speaker 1: if if you know, if every everyone by now knows 1196 01:04:22,520 --> 01:04:27,000 Speaker 1: what a riot cop looks like, right, I want everyone 1197 01:04:27,040 --> 01:04:30,280 Speaker 1: to go back and even even from from like two 1198 01:04:30,360 --> 01:04:33,680 Speaker 1: thousand one, look at what a riot police officer looks 1199 01:04:33,680 --> 01:04:36,240 Speaker 1: like in two thousand one versus what they look like now, 1200 01:04:37,080 --> 01:04:39,360 Speaker 1: and then go back to even like the nineteen sixties 1201 01:04:39,960 --> 01:04:42,960 Speaker 1: and look look at look at what those guys look like. Yeah, 1202 01:04:42,960 --> 01:04:44,800 Speaker 1: I know, looking at the footage from the sixties and 1203 01:04:44,920 --> 01:04:47,880 Speaker 1: riot cops is like really depressed it because they're like, 1204 01:04:48,160 --> 01:04:52,120 Speaker 1: I could take these guys. They're they're just wearing T shirts. 1205 01:04:52,800 --> 01:04:55,520 Speaker 1: They're just guys. It's it's way more of a fair fight. 1206 01:04:55,720 --> 01:04:57,600 Speaker 1: They have T shirts and sticks. We could have T 1207 01:04:57,720 --> 01:05:00,960 Speaker 1: shirts and sticks. That is a that's like the arriety 1208 01:05:00,960 --> 01:05:03,360 Speaker 1: of the sixties. It sounds like now they also in 1209 01:05:03,400 --> 01:05:05,640 Speaker 1: some cases will be much more willing just to murder 1210 01:05:05,720 --> 01:05:09,440 Speaker 1: tons of people. Now there is that exception, but in 1211 01:05:09,640 --> 01:05:12,920 Speaker 1: like a big street brawl, it is it is generally 1212 01:05:13,160 --> 01:05:14,920 Speaker 1: a bit of a fair fight. I mean, I will 1213 01:05:14,960 --> 01:05:18,800 Speaker 1: say also, sixties police love love dogs. They love like 1214 01:05:18,800 --> 01:05:22,840 Speaker 1: sicking dogs on people, which is really bad. Yeah, I'm 1215 01:05:23,080 --> 01:05:24,440 Speaker 1: I'm looking at it, looking at it at the two 1216 01:05:24,480 --> 01:05:28,000 Speaker 1: thousand one riot cops, and yeah, they are not nearly 1217 01:05:28,080 --> 01:05:32,720 Speaker 1: as robo copy. That's what they are now. Drin the 1218 01:05:32,720 --> 01:05:36,760 Speaker 1: Twin Chilean uprising in I was talking to someone in 1219 01:05:36,840 --> 01:05:40,080 Speaker 1: Chile and they were talking about how like they were 1220 01:05:40,080 --> 01:05:42,160 Speaker 1: describing it as like the cops were just like like 1221 01:05:42,200 --> 01:05:43,960 Speaker 1: something had a change, beating Ninja turtles like it was 1222 01:05:44,000 --> 01:05:48,840 Speaker 1: like fighting the Shredder. There's yea. Even even even the 1223 01:05:48,960 --> 01:05:52,200 Speaker 1: L A. P. D. Riot cops for the nineteen ninety 1224 01:05:52,200 --> 01:05:55,960 Speaker 1: two riots, they're also still just wearing like shirts like 1225 01:05:56,000 --> 01:05:59,800 Speaker 1: they just have they just have colored shirts and one stick. Yeah. 1226 01:06:00,120 --> 01:06:04,040 Speaker 1: Now now they're wearing there whatever dumb armor they have. Yeah. 1227 01:06:04,160 --> 01:06:05,720 Speaker 1: But you know, and this is this is you know 1228 01:06:05,720 --> 01:06:07,160 Speaker 1: and this, this is this is if if you want 1229 01:06:07,160 --> 01:06:10,240 Speaker 1: to trace the path in neo liberalism, it's this. It's 1230 01:06:10,480 --> 01:06:15,000 Speaker 1: a lot of the army surplus stuff that like the 1231 01:06:15,040 --> 01:06:17,400 Speaker 1: police have gotten a lot of. It's really scary. A 1232 01:06:17,400 --> 01:06:19,680 Speaker 1: lot of it also sucks, like a lot of those 1233 01:06:19,680 --> 01:06:21,800 Speaker 1: a t v S every like everyone who's ever had 1234 01:06:21,840 --> 01:06:24,760 Speaker 1: the drive them hates them. But you know, like like 1235 01:06:24,800 --> 01:06:28,120 Speaker 1: my my like absolutely tiny dinky town has a bear 1236 01:06:28,200 --> 01:06:33,040 Speaker 1: cat and that shouldn't that shouldn't be. And I know 1237 01:06:33,080 --> 01:06:36,360 Speaker 1: where it is too, Like I know where the bear 1238 01:06:36,400 --> 01:06:38,200 Speaker 1: cat is. It's like, there shouldn't be a bear cat. 1239 01:06:39,720 --> 01:06:42,840 Speaker 1: My town is a tax cutout, like it's it's literally 1240 01:06:42,840 --> 01:06:44,640 Speaker 1: a tax carve out like that that's the reason, that's 1241 01:06:44,680 --> 01:06:46,439 Speaker 1: really reason it exists. And it has a bear cat, 1242 01:06:47,200 --> 01:06:49,800 Speaker 1: and like, you know, this is this is sort of 1243 01:06:49,840 --> 01:06:52,640 Speaker 1: the this is the consequence of of of what neo liberalism, 1244 01:06:52,680 --> 01:06:56,120 Speaker 1: isn't it. Vicky usta Well talked about this on on 1245 01:06:56,120 --> 01:06:58,480 Speaker 1: on the Occupy episode. It's it's the comps become more 1246 01:06:58,520 --> 01:07:00,800 Speaker 1: like become more like the army. The army becomes more 1247 01:07:00,800 --> 01:07:05,680 Speaker 1: like the cops. And you know, the result is this 1248 01:07:06,360 --> 01:07:08,680 Speaker 1: sort of pen out to con surveillance states, where like 1249 01:07:08,760 --> 01:07:11,880 Speaker 1: if you and seven people stand on a sidewalk, sixteen 1250 01:07:11,920 --> 01:07:17,040 Speaker 1: cops will show up. Yeah, they've they've really excelled in 1251 01:07:17,520 --> 01:07:22,720 Speaker 1: making the capitalist realism Dumer philosophy be almost like the 1252 01:07:22,720 --> 01:07:25,640 Speaker 1: base philosophy for anyone who takes two seconds to think 1253 01:07:25,680 --> 01:07:28,480 Speaker 1: about the world that they live in. And you know, 1254 01:07:28,520 --> 01:07:31,000 Speaker 1: and this has been really effective in a lot of ways. 1255 01:07:32,160 --> 01:07:36,280 Speaker 1: But you know, David Graeber point pointed this out, which 1256 01:07:36,320 --> 01:07:40,439 Speaker 1: is that the problem with doing this is that, you know, Okay, 1257 01:07:40,480 --> 01:07:42,760 Speaker 1: so like the the the enormous amount of guard labor, right, 1258 01:07:42,760 --> 01:07:45,640 Speaker 1: the enormous amount of sort of prison guards. Like that's 1259 01:07:45,640 --> 01:07:48,760 Speaker 1: all unproductive labor, right. You know, you you you make 1260 01:07:48,800 --> 01:07:50,600 Speaker 1: you make some of that money back off that the 1261 01:07:50,640 --> 01:07:52,800 Speaker 1: companies make some of the money back off the slave labor. Right, 1262 01:07:53,600 --> 01:07:56,680 Speaker 1: But like, but that in general. There the guards aren't 1263 01:07:57,080 --> 01:08:00,960 Speaker 1: adding anything. They're not they're not they're not produced any 1264 01:08:01,240 --> 01:08:05,120 Speaker 1: goods um and not really much service either. No. And 1265 01:08:05,240 --> 01:08:07,280 Speaker 1: and this is you know this, this this is a problem, 1266 01:08:07,360 --> 01:08:10,400 Speaker 1: right because because neoliberalism is profit driven, and so you know, 1267 01:08:10,440 --> 01:08:12,520 Speaker 1: what what you have is is that the system has 1268 01:08:12,520 --> 01:08:16,800 Speaker 1: a choice between either it functioning or it making it 1269 01:08:16,880 --> 01:08:20,760 Speaker 1: appear as if it's the only system. And that's the 1270 01:08:20,760 --> 01:08:23,240 Speaker 1: thing is that it's it's it's kind of profit driven. 1271 01:08:23,600 --> 01:08:26,160 Speaker 1: But honestly, the more that I the more that you've 1272 01:08:26,160 --> 01:08:29,560 Speaker 1: been talking like, no, it's just about eliminating any alternative. 1273 01:08:29,720 --> 01:08:32,160 Speaker 1: So it's not not even profit driven. It's that it's 1274 01:08:32,320 --> 01:08:36,400 Speaker 1: forcing itself to be the only acceptable option. Yeah, that's 1275 01:08:36,439 --> 01:08:40,439 Speaker 1: how it gets so much of its power. Yeah. But 1276 01:08:40,439 --> 01:08:45,280 Speaker 1: but you know the problem with this is that all 1277 01:08:45,320 --> 01:08:48,519 Speaker 1: of that sort of ideological coercion only last as long 1278 01:08:48,560 --> 01:08:52,880 Speaker 1: as the police can hold the streets, which is which 1279 01:08:52,880 --> 01:08:56,400 Speaker 1: is they're good at it. They're they're sometimes they're decent, 1280 01:08:56,840 --> 01:08:58,479 Speaker 1: you know. And one one of the story I want 1281 01:08:58,479 --> 01:09:03,160 Speaker 1: to end on is so there's you know, there there 1282 01:09:03,200 --> 01:09:07,679 Speaker 1: has been in some with more varying degrees of success, 1283 01:09:07,720 --> 01:09:12,040 Speaker 1: there has actually been resistance in neoliberalism, and there are 1284 01:09:12,080 --> 01:09:14,040 Speaker 1: places where people have won the people. There are places 1285 01:09:14,040 --> 01:09:15,840 Speaker 1: where people have run the I m f out those people. 1286 01:09:15,920 --> 01:09:18,800 Speaker 1: There's places where people have you know, defeated coups, where 1287 01:09:18,800 --> 01:09:21,840 Speaker 1: they've like you know, where where they've where they've they've 1288 01:09:21,880 --> 01:09:24,519 Speaker 1: they've successfully sort of taken over the state. There's places 1289 01:09:24,520 --> 01:09:27,120 Speaker 1: where you know, I mean there's there's there's places like 1290 01:09:28,240 --> 01:09:30,040 Speaker 1: you know, we're gonna talk about couple of things in Mexico, 1291 01:09:30,120 --> 01:09:32,280 Speaker 1: but yeah, I mean there's there's the Appetistas who have 1292 01:09:32,720 --> 01:09:35,080 Speaker 1: you know, are constantly besieged, but have carved out a 1293 01:09:35,240 --> 01:09:38,599 Speaker 1: territory in which they have you know, like totally defeated 1294 01:09:38,640 --> 01:09:42,680 Speaker 1: the Mexican almost really defeated the Mexican state. And I 1295 01:09:42,760 --> 01:09:46,920 Speaker 1: think one of the sort of forgotten incidents in in 1296 01:09:47,200 --> 01:09:51,160 Speaker 1: the two thousands is this uprising in Wahaka where they, yeah, 1297 01:09:51,160 --> 01:09:52,880 Speaker 1: there's a there's an enormous sort of a bunch of 1298 01:09:52,920 --> 01:09:57,000 Speaker 1: teachers are going on strike. And you know, Wahawka's teaching 1299 01:09:57,120 --> 01:10:00,519 Speaker 1: unions are enormously powerful, incredibly radical, and so you know 1300 01:10:00,600 --> 01:10:02,040 Speaker 1: that they one of the things they do is that 1301 01:10:02,200 --> 01:10:04,439 Speaker 1: they go into the city and they have these like 1302 01:10:04,560 --> 01:10:06,479 Speaker 1: these giants started protest tents that they showed up and 1303 01:10:06,479 --> 01:10:09,560 Speaker 1: they have these like giant camps and she just in 1304 01:10:09,640 --> 01:10:13,040 Speaker 1: six the police attack them, and so they start attacking 1305 01:10:13,120 --> 01:10:16,000 Speaker 1: and and the teachers fight back, and so you have 1306 01:10:16,080 --> 01:10:20,320 Speaker 1: this you know this, this this massive battle erupts um 1307 01:10:20,560 --> 01:10:22,320 Speaker 1: it's just in the city and you know this is 1308 01:10:22,360 --> 01:10:23,840 Speaker 1: this is all the police attack it like three in 1309 01:10:23,960 --> 01:10:27,240 Speaker 1: the morning, right, but then they there's not enough of them, 1310 01:10:27,240 --> 01:10:30,479 Speaker 1: the clear teachers out and the teachers hold and they 1311 01:10:30,560 --> 01:10:33,479 Speaker 1: hold and they hold, and the city of Wahaka wakes 1312 01:10:33,560 --> 01:10:36,840 Speaker 1: up to this just enormous battle in the streets between 1313 01:10:36,840 --> 01:10:40,280 Speaker 1: a bunch of just like teachers and the cops. And 1314 01:10:40,439 --> 01:10:44,880 Speaker 1: when Wahawka wakes up, they are just like what the 1315 01:10:45,120 --> 01:10:48,439 Speaker 1: fuck is this? And you know, they joined the teachers 1316 01:10:48,439 --> 01:10:52,000 Speaker 1: and they go fight the cops and they they they're 1317 01:10:52,560 --> 01:10:55,400 Speaker 1: largely successful in like like they beat them. They drive, 1318 01:10:55,479 --> 01:10:59,280 Speaker 1: they drive the police from the city, and you know, 1319 01:10:59,400 --> 01:11:01,800 Speaker 1: and and for for for for for several months, the 1320 01:11:01,840 --> 01:11:04,080 Speaker 1: city is basically under the control of these like direct 1321 01:11:04,120 --> 01:11:07,479 Speaker 1: democratic councils and like they're there are these there are 1322 01:11:07,479 --> 01:11:09,280 Speaker 1: these things they call the mega marshes, which just a 1323 01:11:09,400 --> 01:11:11,960 Speaker 1: million people will do a march to the streets and 1324 01:11:12,000 --> 01:11:14,040 Speaker 1: the police there's the police just can't stop them because 1325 01:11:14,120 --> 01:11:17,040 Speaker 1: you know, there's a million people. And yeah, that's that's 1326 01:11:17,080 --> 01:11:19,200 Speaker 1: the only way that I've seen it be successful, whether 1327 01:11:19,240 --> 01:11:22,439 Speaker 1: it be you know, just to sure sheer massive people 1328 01:11:22,560 --> 01:11:25,720 Speaker 1: driving cops out of a police station, or you know, 1329 01:11:25,880 --> 01:11:29,400 Speaker 1: an entire city rallying behind people like in in in 1330 01:11:29,520 --> 01:11:31,800 Speaker 1: Portland when the fence came, it's like you need to 1331 01:11:31,840 --> 01:11:35,840 Speaker 1: have like everybody to show up, because they could fight 1332 01:11:36,040 --> 01:11:41,559 Speaker 1: two hundred like twin canarchists very pretty easily. You usually, um, 1333 01:11:41,920 --> 01:11:44,080 Speaker 1: but when you have like all of the moms and 1334 01:11:44,200 --> 01:11:46,320 Speaker 1: dads and regular people come up, that is much more 1335 01:11:46,320 --> 01:11:50,120 Speaker 1: of a complicated of fight on like on on their end, 1336 01:11:50,479 --> 01:11:53,679 Speaker 1: because yeah, we'll still have the teenage front liners throwing 1337 01:11:54,320 --> 01:11:57,800 Speaker 1: at the cops, but when you have like regular people 1338 01:11:57,840 --> 01:12:00,680 Speaker 1: behind them, that creates the whole median sative to be 1339 01:12:00,880 --> 01:12:05,519 Speaker 1: something totally different. And it got the Feds to back 1340 01:12:05,600 --> 01:12:09,759 Speaker 1: down in Portland when Trump really wanted to not happen. 1341 01:12:10,479 --> 01:12:12,040 Speaker 1: And I think also the thing the thing that that 1342 01:12:12,120 --> 01:12:14,360 Speaker 1: was increding incredible aba hawkause it wasn't just people sort 1343 01:12:14,360 --> 01:12:17,360 Speaker 1: of like standing behind them, like like tens of thousands 1344 01:12:17,400 --> 01:12:20,760 Speaker 1: of people just joined the fight in in a way 1345 01:12:20,840 --> 01:12:22,760 Speaker 1: that you know it like if you know, if if 1346 01:12:22,800 --> 01:12:25,240 Speaker 1: there's like fifty thou people in a city throwing bricks 1347 01:12:25,280 --> 01:12:27,360 Speaker 1: at you, like you you either have to start shooting 1348 01:12:27,360 --> 01:12:29,760 Speaker 1: into the crowd or try to hold them. Can't You can't. 1349 01:12:29,760 --> 01:12:32,080 Speaker 1: And even when he start shooting into the crowd, Yeah, 1350 01:12:32,080 --> 01:12:34,680 Speaker 1: they tried it. And the disaster it made it made 1351 01:12:34,760 --> 01:12:37,439 Speaker 1: even people the crowds were larger, and like, you know, 1352 01:12:37,520 --> 01:12:40,560 Speaker 1: one of the things that happens is, uh, the the 1353 01:12:40,640 --> 01:12:42,960 Speaker 1: revolutionaries try to like you know, they go to the 1354 01:12:43,040 --> 01:12:44,800 Speaker 1: radio station or like okay, well you broadcast this. The 1355 01:12:44,840 --> 01:12:47,120 Speaker 1: radio station says no, and so they start seizing radio 1356 01:12:47,160 --> 01:12:50,639 Speaker 1: stations all over all over the city. Yeah, and they yeah, 1357 01:12:50,680 --> 01:12:51,800 Speaker 1: and then you know, and then they had they had 1358 01:12:51,840 --> 01:12:53,240 Speaker 1: these they had these like bonfire at the edge of 1359 01:12:53,240 --> 01:12:54,640 Speaker 1: the city where if one's at a meets and like 1360 01:12:54,720 --> 01:12:57,479 Speaker 1: they're there's they're they're sending their they're they're sending radio 1361 01:12:57,720 --> 01:13:00,559 Speaker 1: like messages like over the radio stations they've taken over 1362 01:13:00,680 --> 01:13:05,960 Speaker 1: from like barricade to barricade, and you know, eventually the 1363 01:13:06,040 --> 01:13:08,920 Speaker 1: police and like the like the Mexican Army shows up 1364 01:13:09,400 --> 01:13:11,280 Speaker 1: and at that point they're able to sort of retake 1365 01:13:11,320 --> 01:13:14,599 Speaker 1: the city. And there's a couple of other things happening 1366 01:13:14,600 --> 01:13:16,160 Speaker 1: in Mexico at this point that are sort of this 1367 01:13:16,240 --> 01:13:19,840 Speaker 1: is giants are left wing tied, and the way that 1368 01:13:19,960 --> 01:13:24,280 Speaker 1: it gets stopped is that the Mexican army basically fully 1369 01:13:24,360 --> 01:13:28,559 Speaker 1: kicks off the drug war and they kill I mean, 1370 01:13:30,280 --> 01:13:33,599 Speaker 1: I've seen numbers up to like eight hundred thousand people 1371 01:13:33,680 --> 01:13:37,680 Speaker 1: in ten years. They just they basic they basically genocides 1372 01:13:37,840 --> 01:13:43,760 Speaker 1: the indigenous population of of of Mexico. And you know, 1373 01:13:44,080 --> 01:13:46,160 Speaker 1: I think I think that's that's that's sort of a 1374 01:13:46,240 --> 01:13:51,000 Speaker 1: place to leave it because more big hopeful note to 1375 01:13:51,160 --> 01:13:52,840 Speaker 1: end to the show on. Yeah, but I mean I 1376 01:13:52,920 --> 01:13:54,479 Speaker 1: think I think it is it is worth it is 1377 01:13:54,600 --> 01:13:57,160 Speaker 1: you know, it's it's it's it's worth thinking about. Is one, 1378 01:13:57,280 --> 01:14:01,040 Speaker 1: it is possible to beat the police to the ruling 1379 01:14:01,080 --> 01:14:04,960 Speaker 1: class will literally bathe the entire country in blood, like 1380 01:14:05,120 --> 01:14:09,400 Speaker 1: they will destroy their own company. Is different. The way 1381 01:14:09,479 --> 01:14:12,120 Speaker 1: I mean this gets discussed and season will happen here, 1382 01:14:12,200 --> 01:14:14,559 Speaker 1: but like the way the American military works, I think 1383 01:14:14,600 --> 01:14:17,439 Speaker 1: it will be less likely to do that. Yeah. Well, 1384 01:14:17,439 --> 01:14:18,880 Speaker 1: I mean, and I want I want to put this 1385 01:14:18,920 --> 01:14:22,160 Speaker 1: oide like, so the thing that the Army doesn't directly 1386 01:14:22,520 --> 01:14:24,080 Speaker 1: murder people. What they do is but what they do 1387 01:14:24,240 --> 01:14:28,880 Speaker 1: is basically like they they set off a bunch of 1388 01:14:28,960 --> 01:14:32,400 Speaker 1: fighting between the cartels and then and the cartels fucking 1389 01:14:32,520 --> 01:14:35,479 Speaker 1: murder enormous members people. But you know, we will happily 1390 01:14:35,560 --> 01:14:38,240 Speaker 1: murder each other. But yeah, yeah, well and also you know, 1391 01:14:38,320 --> 01:14:39,920 Speaker 1: I mean it's it's also this is this is you know, 1392 01:14:39,960 --> 01:14:41,559 Speaker 1: it's the thing with the Mexican state. It's it's very 1393 01:14:41,680 --> 01:14:44,240 Speaker 1: very difficult to tell where the cartels stop and where 1394 01:14:44,280 --> 01:14:46,320 Speaker 1: the Mexican Army begins because a lot of them are 1395 01:14:46,400 --> 01:14:49,240 Speaker 1: the same thing. And like you know that there's Yeah, 1396 01:14:49,840 --> 01:14:54,120 Speaker 1: that's not to end on and just but just to 1397 01:14:54,520 --> 01:14:56,200 Speaker 1: make the ending a bit better, I do want to 1398 01:14:56,240 --> 01:15:00,439 Speaker 1: say I'm no longer going to call anyone U a liberal. 1399 01:15:00,840 --> 01:15:03,519 Speaker 1: I made this joke in the group chat yesterday and 1400 01:15:03,560 --> 01:15:05,320 Speaker 1: nobody responded to it, so it was set. So I'll 1401 01:15:05,320 --> 01:15:08,240 Speaker 1: say it now. I'm only going they called them Thomas 1402 01:15:08,320 --> 01:15:12,280 Speaker 1: Anderson liberals. That that that that's that's that is what 1403 01:15:12,360 --> 01:15:16,400 Speaker 1: I'm calling them now. Um, And I'll make everyone wait 1404 01:15:16,520 --> 01:15:19,160 Speaker 1: two seconds to understand what's going on and then sigh 1405 01:15:19,240 --> 01:15:21,400 Speaker 1: and then motion to get me out of the room. 1406 01:15:21,720 --> 01:15:28,280 Speaker 1: So thank you Chris for talking about them, and thank 1407 01:15:28,320 --> 01:15:30,920 Speaker 1: thank thank thank you all for joining us. This this 1408 01:15:31,040 --> 01:15:34,120 Speaker 1: has been ni could happen here? Um. You can find 1409 01:15:34,200 --> 01:15:37,680 Speaker 1: us on Instagram and Twitter. If you so desire, if 1410 01:15:37,720 --> 01:15:39,559 Speaker 1: you want to get if you want, if you want 1411 01:15:39,640 --> 01:15:42,160 Speaker 1: people to know that, you follow us and create a 1412 01:15:42,200 --> 01:15:44,760 Speaker 1: whole network of surveillance based so everyone knows what you're 1413 01:15:44,800 --> 01:15:46,760 Speaker 1: watching and what you're listening to, to create a better 1414 01:15:46,840 --> 01:15:48,599 Speaker 1: picture who you are online so you can get get 1415 01:15:48,640 --> 01:15:53,280 Speaker 1: better advertisements. Yeah, follow us online, joined the Panopticon. Throw 1416 01:15:53,360 --> 01:15:55,840 Speaker 1: bricks at it. It is pretty funny how they tricked 1417 01:15:55,840 --> 01:15:59,320 Speaker 1: everyone into carrying around gps is wherever they go. It's 1418 01:15:59,640 --> 01:16:03,400 Speaker 1: pretty funny. Yeah, it's it's amazing. It's like, oh everyone everyone, 1419 01:16:03,439 --> 01:16:05,080 Speaker 1: everyone in my town is like, oh, we can't get 1420 01:16:05,120 --> 01:16:07,880 Speaker 1: the vaccine. They have micro chips in it's like you 1421 01:16:07,960 --> 01:16:12,840 Speaker 1: have a phone. It's hilarious. They tricked us into carry 1422 01:16:12,880 --> 01:16:16,640 Speaker 1: around speakers, cabras and gps is everywhere we go. It 1423 01:16:16,880 --> 01:16:21,320 Speaker 1: is really funny. It's amazing. All right, Well, bye funny Fye, 1424 01:16:34,960 --> 01:16:37,479 Speaker 1: welcome to it could happen here? Um. The show that 1425 01:16:37,800 --> 01:16:41,519 Speaker 1: is normally introduced by me shouting a tonally, but today 1426 01:16:41,720 --> 01:16:45,320 Speaker 1: I did like a professional. Um, because today myself and 1427 01:16:45,439 --> 01:16:48,599 Speaker 1: my colleagues Garrison and Christopher are talking to someone I'm 1428 01:16:48,720 --> 01:16:52,320 Speaker 1: very excited to chat with Mr Corey. Doctor Oh Corey, 1429 01:16:52,720 --> 01:16:55,600 Speaker 1: welcome the show. Thank you very much. It is my 1430 01:16:55,680 --> 01:16:57,960 Speaker 1: pleasure to be on it. It's great to meet you 1431 01:16:58,040 --> 01:17:01,000 Speaker 1: all in to be talking to you today. Corey. You 1432 01:17:01,160 --> 01:17:04,080 Speaker 1: do a lot of writing about kind of technology and 1433 01:17:04,320 --> 01:17:08,599 Speaker 1: surveillance and cultural issues around those. You're also an author. 1434 01:17:08,640 --> 01:17:11,000 Speaker 1: You've written some great fiction. I think today will probably 1435 01:17:11,479 --> 01:17:14,719 Speaker 1: talk most around books like Attack Service and walk Away, 1436 01:17:14,760 --> 01:17:17,439 Speaker 1: but you've written a lot of wonderful stuff. Um. And 1437 01:17:17,520 --> 01:17:19,479 Speaker 1: you've also worked with the e f F for years 1438 01:17:19,520 --> 01:17:22,160 Speaker 1: and years. UM. So you you you're coming at what 1439 01:17:22,240 --> 01:17:24,280 Speaker 1: I love about. I mean, we're gonna be talking today 1440 01:17:24,320 --> 01:17:27,040 Speaker 1: broadly about surveillance and kind of the future of of 1441 01:17:27,520 --> 01:17:29,960 Speaker 1: the Internet. Will probably talk about some metaverse e stuff. 1442 01:17:30,400 --> 01:17:33,360 Speaker 1: What I love about the way in which you think 1443 01:17:33,439 --> 01:17:35,120 Speaker 1: and write about the future is that you're kind of 1444 01:17:35,200 --> 01:17:37,599 Speaker 1: coming about it from a number of angles, both as 1445 01:17:37,680 --> 01:17:42,320 Speaker 1: like a tech industry journalist, as a fiction writer imagining 1446 01:17:42,360 --> 01:17:44,880 Speaker 1: the future, and as somebody who's kind of weighted in 1447 01:17:45,000 --> 01:17:49,040 Speaker 1: as an activist to this and um, I'm kind of wondering, 1448 01:17:50,000 --> 01:17:53,799 Speaker 1: where do you see like the greatest potential for actual 1449 01:17:54,000 --> 01:17:56,760 Speaker 1: like change. Um? Is it? Is it in kind of 1450 01:17:57,080 --> 01:17:59,400 Speaker 1: is it in lobbying and engaging as an activist, or 1451 01:17:59,479 --> 01:18:01,680 Speaker 1: is it in sort of imagining as a as a 1452 01:18:01,800 --> 01:18:05,120 Speaker 1: as a fiction writer? What might be? So I I 1453 01:18:05,240 --> 01:18:08,879 Speaker 1: see them as adjuncts uh, you know, diversity of tactics 1454 01:18:08,960 --> 01:18:13,439 Speaker 1: and all that stuff. Um. The thing is that tech 1455 01:18:13,560 --> 01:18:19,920 Speaker 1: policy arguments are often very abstract, uh, And they are 1456 01:18:20,080 --> 01:18:25,160 Speaker 1: only visceral for the people who would provide the kind 1457 01:18:25,200 --> 01:18:28,519 Speaker 1: of political will to do something about them. Usually that 1458 01:18:28,680 --> 01:18:31,840 Speaker 1: that comes when it's too late, right, people, people care 1459 01:18:31,880 --> 01:18:34,479 Speaker 1: about tech monopolies once the web is turned into five 1460 01:18:34,560 --> 01:18:36,840 Speaker 1: giant websites filled with scripted shots of text from the 1461 01:18:36,880 --> 01:18:40,759 Speaker 1: other four. But not when Yahoo is on a buying 1462 01:18:40,840 --> 01:18:43,240 Speaker 1: spree of tech companies and we're saying, oh, that's how 1463 01:18:43,320 --> 01:18:45,439 Speaker 1: tech companies grow, and all tech companies will grow in 1464 01:18:45,439 --> 01:18:48,360 Speaker 1: the future by buying all their nascent competitors and rolling 1465 01:18:48,400 --> 01:18:50,800 Speaker 1: them up into a big vertically integrated monopoly, which is 1466 01:18:50,880 --> 01:18:52,439 Speaker 1: kind of how we got Facebook and Google and the 1467 01:18:52,520 --> 01:18:55,519 Speaker 1: rest of it. And um, you need to be able 1468 01:18:55,560 --> 01:18:58,679 Speaker 1: to make policy arguments to policy people but you also 1469 01:18:58,760 --> 01:19:01,759 Speaker 1: need to be able to put uh, some some sinew 1470 01:19:01,840 --> 01:19:04,880 Speaker 1: and muscle on the bone of that highly abstract kind 1471 01:19:04,960 --> 01:19:08,000 Speaker 1: of argument. And and that's where fiction comes in. It's 1472 01:19:08,040 --> 01:19:12,600 Speaker 1: kind of a like a fly through of like an 1473 01:19:12,640 --> 01:19:16,080 Speaker 1: emotional architects rendering of what things might look like if 1474 01:19:16,160 --> 01:19:19,040 Speaker 1: we get it wrong or if we change it. It 1475 01:19:19,240 --> 01:19:21,720 Speaker 1: preserves the sense of possibility. You know. I think one 1476 01:19:21,760 --> 01:19:25,000 Speaker 1: of the great enemies of change is the inevitable is 1477 01:19:25,040 --> 01:19:27,360 Speaker 1: um of capitalist realism and the idea that there is 1478 01:19:27,400 --> 01:19:29,560 Speaker 1: no alternative. So if you can make people believe in 1479 01:19:29,600 --> 01:19:32,400 Speaker 1: an alternative, then they might work for one. And certainly 1480 01:19:32,439 --> 01:19:34,880 Speaker 1: the opposite is true. If people don't believe there is 1481 01:19:35,160 --> 01:19:38,120 Speaker 1: any alternative possible, they won't work for one. Why why 1482 01:19:38,200 --> 01:19:42,519 Speaker 1: would you? Uh? And so all of that together, I 1483 01:19:42,640 --> 01:19:46,000 Speaker 1: think is part of how you mobilize people to care 1484 01:19:46,040 --> 01:19:50,800 Speaker 1: about stuff. Yeah, I mean that makes that makes total sense, 1485 01:19:50,880 --> 01:19:54,720 Speaker 1: and it is It's difficult, I think because I first 1486 01:19:54,760 --> 01:19:58,679 Speaker 1: came into technology as a journalist, and it's very difficult 1487 01:19:58,720 --> 01:20:02,120 Speaker 1: to get people to care about out stuff. And I 1488 01:20:02,200 --> 01:20:05,479 Speaker 1: think in particular privacy, which there was it has been 1489 01:20:05,520 --> 01:20:07,840 Speaker 1: one of the most interesting cases of like the kind 1490 01:20:07,880 --> 01:20:11,479 Speaker 1: of thought leaders in in an industry freaking out over 1491 01:20:11,640 --> 01:20:13,920 Speaker 1: something and people not really having an issue with it 1492 01:20:14,040 --> 01:20:16,120 Speaker 1: because we kind of all agreed to hand over all 1493 01:20:16,160 --> 01:20:19,040 Speaker 1: of our data to a number of big side not all, 1494 01:20:19,200 --> 01:20:20,840 Speaker 1: but I don't know. I'm interested in your thoughts and 1495 01:20:20,920 --> 01:20:24,200 Speaker 1: that I understand the idea that like fiction is um 1496 01:20:24,600 --> 01:20:26,160 Speaker 1: is a much better way to try to get people 1497 01:20:26,200 --> 01:20:28,880 Speaker 1: to care about these things because it makes them feel 1498 01:20:28,960 --> 01:20:31,400 Speaker 1: as opposed to kind of reporting on I think people 1499 01:20:31,439 --> 01:20:33,600 Speaker 1: can get kind of lost in the weeds of acquisitions 1500 01:20:33,760 --> 01:20:37,280 Speaker 1: and like uh pivots and you know, tech companies acquiring 1501 01:20:37,320 --> 01:20:40,120 Speaker 1: each other and whatnot. Well, look, I think that the 1502 01:20:41,439 --> 01:20:44,280 Speaker 1: part of the problem with privacy, the reason that we 1503 01:20:45,240 --> 01:20:47,479 Speaker 1: we're late to wake up and do something about it, 1504 01:20:47,960 --> 01:20:50,519 Speaker 1: is because it was obfuscated. You know, if you've ever 1505 01:20:50,640 --> 01:20:53,720 Speaker 1: seen the maps of like how an ad tech stock works, 1506 01:20:53,760 --> 01:20:57,320 Speaker 1: the flow diagrams, uh, you know, there are some things 1507 01:20:57,400 --> 01:21:01,320 Speaker 1: that are complicated because um, there are some things that 1508 01:21:01,320 --> 01:21:03,519 Speaker 1: are hard to understand because they're complicated. And then there 1509 01:21:03,560 --> 01:21:06,400 Speaker 1: are some things that are made complicated so they will 1510 01:21:06,479 --> 01:21:09,120 Speaker 1: be hard to understand. And I think in the case 1511 01:21:09,240 --> 01:21:14,880 Speaker 1: of the surveillance industry, the latter is true and it 1512 01:21:15,040 --> 01:21:17,320 Speaker 1: wasn't just that they were trying to play us for suckers, 1513 01:21:17,400 --> 01:21:20,559 Speaker 1: they were also playing their customers for suckers. Right. One 1514 01:21:20,600 --> 01:21:22,479 Speaker 1: of the reasons that the ad tex st Act is 1515 01:21:22,560 --> 01:21:26,200 Speaker 1: such a snarled hair ball is so that the people 1516 01:21:26,240 --> 01:21:28,760 Speaker 1: who buy ads and the publishers who run ads can't 1517 01:21:28,760 --> 01:21:31,400 Speaker 1: tell how badly they're being ripped off by their intermediaries. 1518 01:21:31,720 --> 01:21:33,600 Speaker 1: But this also has the side effect of making it 1519 01:21:33,760 --> 01:21:36,680 Speaker 1: very hard for us to know as the as the 1520 01:21:36,800 --> 01:21:40,919 Speaker 1: kind of inputs to that system, how our own dignity 1521 01:21:41,040 --> 01:21:44,559 Speaker 1: and private lives and safety and integrity are being put 1522 01:21:44,640 --> 01:21:49,000 Speaker 1: to risk by these systems as well. Um. And you know, 1523 01:21:50,240 --> 01:21:52,120 Speaker 1: it may be that people, if they had been well 1524 01:21:52,200 --> 01:21:54,960 Speaker 1: informed about what was going on, they might have been 1525 01:21:55,000 --> 01:21:57,679 Speaker 1: indifferent as well. But I think that when most people 1526 01:21:57,760 --> 01:22:00,439 Speaker 1: were very poorly informed, right when all theirs was this 1527 01:22:00,600 --> 01:22:04,920 Speaker 1: kind of that privacy discourse was just like stuff as 1528 01:22:05,000 --> 01:22:09,120 Speaker 1: being your personal information is being siphoned up, but no 1529 01:22:09,439 --> 01:22:12,320 Speaker 1: kind of specifics on how that was being used and 1530 01:22:12,520 --> 01:22:14,519 Speaker 1: how that was being done and how it might bring 1531 01:22:14,640 --> 01:22:18,280 Speaker 1: you to harm. Um, it's not clear that that you 1532 01:22:18,360 --> 01:22:20,880 Speaker 1: can say that that the reason they were indifferent is 1533 01:22:21,000 --> 01:22:24,240 Speaker 1: because they were fully informed. It didn't care if you 1534 01:22:24,360 --> 01:22:26,479 Speaker 1: know that they weren't fully informed. If you know that 1535 01:22:26,560 --> 01:22:29,720 Speaker 1: they were barely informed. M hm, I mean yeah, I 1536 01:22:29,800 --> 01:22:32,840 Speaker 1: think you're absolutely right. Because when the Cambridge Analytic Is 1537 01:22:32,880 --> 01:22:34,719 Speaker 1: scandal broke, which was I think one of the first 1538 01:22:34,800 --> 01:22:38,040 Speaker 1: times that there was a really huge international story that 1539 01:22:38,120 --> 01:22:40,880 Speaker 1: made it clear some of the consequences of all this, Like, 1540 01:22:41,040 --> 01:22:43,320 Speaker 1: it did provoke a lot of a lot of anger. 1541 01:22:44,000 --> 01:22:46,960 Speaker 1: Um I I do you worry at all that, Like 1542 01:22:48,400 --> 01:22:51,599 Speaker 1: there's a degree to which because it because people got 1543 01:22:51,760 --> 01:22:53,559 Speaker 1: tricked or whatever you want to frame it, and it's 1544 01:22:53,600 --> 01:22:59,719 Speaker 1: gone the the kind of um, financialization of people's private data, 1545 01:23:00,080 --> 01:23:02,720 Speaker 1: people's like personal information. Because that has gone so far, 1546 01:23:03,240 --> 01:23:05,360 Speaker 1: there's a risk that people are just kind of inured 1547 01:23:05,439 --> 01:23:09,120 Speaker 1: to it. Um yeah, well, well, I mean that kind 1548 01:23:09,120 --> 01:23:11,160 Speaker 1: of gets to my theory change here, which is that 1549 01:23:11,720 --> 01:23:15,080 Speaker 1: there is always going to be uh a point of 1550 01:23:16,320 --> 01:23:20,200 Speaker 1: maximum and difference peak indifference. You know, Um, if you 1551 01:23:20,280 --> 01:23:25,560 Speaker 1: think about something like being a smoker, the likelihood that 1552 01:23:26,280 --> 01:23:30,719 Speaker 1: you care about cancer goes up the longer you smoke 1553 01:23:30,920 --> 01:23:34,720 Speaker 1: and the more health effects you feel. And certainly there 1554 01:23:34,720 --> 01:23:37,559 Speaker 1: will come a point in your life when you will 1555 01:23:37,680 --> 01:23:40,439 Speaker 1: only ever grow more worried about the effects of smoking 1556 01:23:40,720 --> 01:23:43,519 Speaker 1: on your life. But there's also a point of no return. 1557 01:23:44,200 --> 01:23:47,160 Speaker 1: Right If the point at which you you're you're concern 1558 01:23:47,720 --> 01:23:50,320 Speaker 1: reaches the point where you're actually going to do something 1559 01:23:50,400 --> 01:23:53,599 Speaker 1: about smoking is the day you get diagnosed with stage 1560 01:23:53,600 --> 01:23:59,720 Speaker 1: four lung cancer, then that um denialism can slide into nihilism. 1561 01:24:00,200 --> 01:24:02,800 Speaker 1: You can say, why bother, right, it's too late. It's 1562 01:24:02,840 --> 01:24:06,080 Speaker 1: like if if we spend years arguing about the crashing 1563 01:24:06,160 --> 01:24:10,519 Speaker 1: population of rhinos and then finally there's only one left, 1564 01:24:10,640 --> 01:24:13,360 Speaker 1: and you say you're right, there was a problem, you 1565 01:24:13,479 --> 01:24:15,599 Speaker 1: might as well say, like, why don't we eat him 1566 01:24:15,640 --> 01:24:17,240 Speaker 1: and find out what he tastes like? It's not like 1567 01:24:17,360 --> 01:24:19,720 Speaker 1: the rhinos are ever going to come back, right, And 1568 01:24:19,880 --> 01:24:23,960 Speaker 1: so for me, so much of the work is about 1569 01:24:24,120 --> 01:24:27,439 Speaker 1: shifting the point of peak indifference to the left of 1570 01:24:27,520 --> 01:24:30,880 Speaker 1: the point of no return on the timeline, so that 1571 01:24:31,320 --> 01:24:35,080 Speaker 1: people actually start to care earlier, because it's it's it's 1572 01:24:35,240 --> 01:24:38,400 Speaker 1: if you haven't a genuine problem, right, like the overcollection 1573 01:24:38,439 --> 01:24:40,840 Speaker 1: of our private data, the mishandling of it, the abuse 1574 01:24:40,920 --> 01:24:45,679 Speaker 1: of it, that genuine problem will eventually produce tangible effects 1575 01:24:45,720 --> 01:24:49,080 Speaker 1: that are undeniable, right that the the our ability to 1576 01:24:49,160 --> 01:24:52,000 Speaker 1: ignore it just goes monotonically down. It's the thing about 1577 01:24:52,040 --> 01:24:56,200 Speaker 1: the climate emergency. You know, even if Shell had not 1578 01:24:56,400 --> 01:24:59,560 Speaker 1: our Exxon had not hidden the data had had on 1579 01:24:59,640 --> 01:25:02,400 Speaker 1: the role that it's products were playing in climate change 1580 01:25:02,439 --> 01:25:04,920 Speaker 1: in the seventies, it would have been hard to muster 1581 01:25:05,000 --> 01:25:07,479 Speaker 1: a sense of urgency in the seventies, right, because the 1582 01:25:07,760 --> 01:25:10,360 Speaker 1: story is that in fifty years something bad's going to happen. 1583 01:25:10,439 --> 01:25:13,000 Speaker 1: But here we are, fifty years on something bad is 1584 01:25:13,080 --> 01:25:15,840 Speaker 1: really happening, and a lot of people are caring about it. 1585 01:25:16,439 --> 01:25:18,560 Speaker 1: They still don't seem to care about it enough, or 1586 01:25:18,680 --> 01:25:21,280 Speaker 1: maybe they've slid into nihilism. There's certainly, I think on 1587 01:25:21,360 --> 01:25:24,439 Speaker 1: the part of the elites, a kind of nihilistic sense 1588 01:25:25,000 --> 01:25:27,800 Speaker 1: that maybe they can all retreat to like mountaintops and 1589 01:25:27,920 --> 01:25:32,160 Speaker 1: build fortresses and breathe their children by harrier jet, you know, 1590 01:25:32,439 --> 01:25:36,800 Speaker 1: and and and you know that nihilism, I think is 1591 01:25:37,080 --> 01:25:40,240 Speaker 1: is what you get when the point of no return 1592 01:25:40,520 --> 01:25:45,800 Speaker 1: has passed before peak denial. Uh and the privacy um 1593 01:25:46,840 --> 01:25:49,760 Speaker 1: catastrophe that is looming in our future that we haven't 1594 01:25:49,840 --> 01:25:51,960 Speaker 1: quite reached yet. I mean, we've just had the first 1595 01:25:52,520 --> 01:25:56,479 Speaker 1: kind of trickles of the dam breaking that's in our future. 1596 01:25:57,320 --> 01:26:00,320 Speaker 1: It hasn't been enough yet to shift people away from it. 1597 01:26:00,760 --> 01:26:02,720 Speaker 1: But but we might be getting there, right, We might 1598 01:26:02,880 --> 01:26:06,080 Speaker 1: We might eventually be able to do something about it. 1599 01:26:06,520 --> 01:26:08,519 Speaker 1: And one of the things that will hasten that moment 1600 01:26:09,760 --> 01:26:14,600 Speaker 1: is um restoring competition to those industries. That one of 1601 01:26:14,640 --> 01:26:18,040 Speaker 1: the reasons that uh, the industry that spies on us 1602 01:26:18,760 --> 01:26:23,519 Speaker 1: is able to foster denial and indifference is because it 1603 01:26:23,760 --> 01:26:26,960 Speaker 1: is a monopolized industry. To companies control eighty percent of 1604 01:26:27,040 --> 01:26:32,640 Speaker 1: the ad market, Google and Facebook, and as as monopolist, 1605 01:26:32,640 --> 01:26:35,320 Speaker 1: they're able to extract huge monopoly rents. They're among the 1606 01:26:35,360 --> 01:26:38,040 Speaker 1: most profitable companies in the history of the world. And 1607 01:26:38,400 --> 01:26:40,960 Speaker 1: some of those monopoly rents, rather than being returned to shareholders, 1608 01:26:41,000 --> 01:26:44,160 Speaker 1: can be mobilized to distort policy, to to make us 1609 01:26:44,360 --> 01:26:46,720 Speaker 1: think that there's nothing wrong with the way that they 1610 01:26:46,800 --> 01:26:51,080 Speaker 1: collect data and use it to forestall regulation, to pay 1611 01:26:51,200 --> 01:26:54,439 Speaker 1: Nick Clegg four million a year to go around Europe 1612 01:26:54,479 --> 01:26:56,800 Speaker 1: and the world and say, as the former Deputy Prime 1613 01:26:56,840 --> 01:26:59,040 Speaker 1: Minister of the United Kingdom, I'm here to tell you 1614 01:26:59,120 --> 01:27:01,840 Speaker 1: that Facebook is a friend of the democratic regimes of 1615 01:27:01,880 --> 01:27:06,679 Speaker 1: the world. And and you know, if if the anti 1616 01:27:06,760 --> 01:27:09,599 Speaker 1: monopoly movement, which is a thing I've become very involved 1617 01:27:09,680 --> 01:27:13,160 Speaker 1: with is able to go from strength to strength. It's 1618 01:27:13,200 --> 01:27:16,000 Speaker 1: surging now. Then one of the things that we might 1619 01:27:16,080 --> 01:27:21,000 Speaker 1: do is is destroy the ammunition that's being used by 1620 01:27:21,120 --> 01:27:24,960 Speaker 1: these large monopolistic firms to distort our policy and harm 1621 01:27:25,080 --> 01:27:28,240 Speaker 1: us in these ways with impunity, and and then maybe 1622 01:27:28,360 --> 01:27:33,160 Speaker 1: we can actually take the the nascent and natural alarm 1623 01:27:33,280 --> 01:27:37,639 Speaker 1: that people do feel about the invasions of their privacy 1624 01:27:38,280 --> 01:27:42,680 Speaker 1: and and actually turn that into privacy policy that is 1625 01:27:42,800 --> 01:27:45,719 Speaker 1: meaningful in respect of these big companies that actually reigns 1626 01:27:45,760 --> 01:27:49,479 Speaker 1: them in. Yeah, And I think I like that you 1627 01:27:49,680 --> 01:27:52,840 Speaker 1: frame it as a privacy catastrophe because I think, I mean, 1628 01:27:53,080 --> 01:27:55,200 Speaker 1: what I just exhibited earlier in this episode, is this 1629 01:27:55,720 --> 01:27:58,640 Speaker 1: this tendency that I certainly see in myself and I 1630 01:27:58,680 --> 01:28:00,479 Speaker 1: see in other people to get kind of eaten down 1631 01:28:00,760 --> 01:28:04,000 Speaker 1: by the continued um excesses of this industry and the 1632 01:28:04,040 --> 01:28:06,600 Speaker 1: continued kind of failure of anything to be done to 1633 01:28:06,720 --> 01:28:08,439 Speaker 1: curb it. And I think you're right, it has to 1634 01:28:08,520 --> 01:28:12,479 Speaker 1: be viewed as um as a calamity. And I and 1635 01:28:12,600 --> 01:28:14,720 Speaker 1: nothing I think makes that clearer than some of the 1636 01:28:15,600 --> 01:28:18,080 Speaker 1: watching some of the stuff Facebook in particular has put 1637 01:28:18,080 --> 01:28:20,080 Speaker 1: out about their plans for the metaverse and kind of 1638 01:28:20,200 --> 01:28:22,760 Speaker 1: thinking back from all of these sensors they want to 1639 01:28:22,840 --> 01:28:24,280 Speaker 1: store in your house, all of the ways in which 1640 01:28:24,280 --> 01:28:27,280 Speaker 1: they want to map everything around you. Um, they never 1641 01:28:27,680 --> 01:28:29,880 Speaker 1: you know, they they kind of advertise as like you'll 1642 01:28:29,880 --> 01:28:31,920 Speaker 1: be able to play basketball with somebody who's in a 1643 01:28:32,000 --> 01:28:34,479 Speaker 1: different state, But really what it is is you're giving 1644 01:28:34,520 --> 01:28:38,200 Speaker 1: Facebook access to every measurement of your body and you know, 1645 01:28:38,360 --> 01:28:40,280 Speaker 1: the pulse of the beat of your heart and all 1646 01:28:40,360 --> 01:28:43,200 Speaker 1: this this stuff that like maybe we don't quite know 1647 01:28:44,000 --> 01:28:47,519 Speaker 1: what it would be useful for from financialization standpoint, but 1648 01:28:47,560 --> 01:28:50,439 Speaker 1: they it's unsettling to think that they'll have to find 1649 01:28:50,479 --> 01:28:52,439 Speaker 1: a way because they'll have it. You know, I don't know. 1650 01:28:52,840 --> 01:28:54,519 Speaker 1: I don't know what is to be done about that, 1651 01:28:54,680 --> 01:28:57,320 Speaker 1: other than, as you say, kind of breaking up these monopolies. 1652 01:28:57,720 --> 01:29:00,240 Speaker 1: Well and and I mean breaking up is like one 1653 01:29:00,280 --> 01:29:02,280 Speaker 1: of the things we can do to monopolies. And and 1654 01:29:02,360 --> 01:29:05,080 Speaker 1: it takes a long time, you know, Um A T 1655 01:29:05,240 --> 01:29:09,320 Speaker 1: and T. The first enforcement action against it happened sixty 1656 01:29:09,400 --> 01:29:12,200 Speaker 1: nine years before it was broken up in nineteen two. 1657 01:29:12,560 --> 01:29:14,360 Speaker 1: I don't think we can wait that long. But there's 1658 01:29:14,360 --> 01:29:16,679 Speaker 1: a lot of intermediate steps, right like we can force 1659 01:29:16,800 --> 01:29:20,519 Speaker 1: them to do interoperability. We can block them from from 1660 01:29:21,360 --> 01:29:25,200 Speaker 1: predatory acquisitions. We can force them to divest of companies 1661 01:29:25,240 --> 01:29:28,320 Speaker 1: and engage in structural separation. We can do all kinds 1662 01:29:28,360 --> 01:29:30,240 Speaker 1: of things. It actually looks like the United Kingdom is 1663 01:29:30,240 --> 01:29:33,120 Speaker 1: going to stop them from buying Giffee, which might seem 1664 01:29:33,280 --> 01:29:36,680 Speaker 1: trivial after all, it's just like animated jifts, but um, 1665 01:29:37,320 --> 01:29:40,920 Speaker 1: what it actually is a surveillance beacons in every social 1666 01:29:41,000 --> 01:29:45,639 Speaker 1: media application, right because if you're hosting a Jeff from 1667 01:29:45,680 --> 01:29:50,560 Speaker 1: Giffee in your message to someone else, Facebook has telemetry 1668 01:29:50,600 --> 01:29:55,400 Speaker 1: about that message. Um. And so the the the not 1669 01:29:55,560 --> 01:29:58,320 Speaker 1: the i c O, the Competition Competition and Markets Authority 1670 01:29:58,320 --> 01:30:00,439 Speaker 1: in the UK was like, yeah, this is just going 1671 01:30:00,479 --> 01:30:02,879 Speaker 1: to strengthen your market power. That's why you're buying this company. 1672 01:30:03,439 --> 01:30:05,599 Speaker 1: You have too much market power already. We're not gonna 1673 01:30:05,680 --> 01:30:09,040 Speaker 1: let you do it. Um. It was almost the case 1674 01:30:09,120 --> 01:30:11,840 Speaker 1: that the Fitbit merger was blocked Google's Fitbit merger. I 1675 01:30:11,960 --> 01:30:14,200 Speaker 1: think it's still not too late to roll it back. 1676 01:30:14,280 --> 01:30:17,160 Speaker 1: And Lena Cohn, who's the new fire breathing dragon in 1677 01:30:17,280 --> 01:30:20,960 Speaker 1: charge of the FTC, who is an astonishing person who 1678 01:30:21,080 --> 01:30:25,000 Speaker 1: was a law student three years ago. Uh, she has said, 1679 01:30:25,320 --> 01:30:27,920 Speaker 1: oh yeah, this this like one point three trillion dollars 1680 01:30:27,960 --> 01:30:30,200 Speaker 1: worth of mergers and acquisitions that you're doing right now 1681 01:30:30,400 --> 01:30:32,639 Speaker 1: to get in under the wire before we start enforcing. 1682 01:30:33,040 --> 01:30:36,040 Speaker 1: Guess what, We're gonna unwind those fucking mergers if it 1683 01:30:36,120 --> 01:30:38,680 Speaker 1: looks like they were anti competitive. And not only are 1684 01:30:38,720 --> 01:30:40,200 Speaker 1: you going to lose all the money you spent on 1685 01:30:40,240 --> 01:30:42,240 Speaker 1: the M and A due diligence and the paperwork and 1686 01:30:42,280 --> 01:30:44,720 Speaker 1: the corporate stuff, but all that integration you're going to 1687 01:30:44,800 --> 01:30:46,760 Speaker 1: do between now and then, you're gonna have to de 1688 01:30:47,000 --> 01:30:49,920 Speaker 1: integrate those companies when we tell you that you don't 1689 01:30:49,960 --> 01:30:53,719 Speaker 1: have uh, you don't have merger approval and you're on notice. 1690 01:30:53,800 --> 01:30:56,800 Speaker 1: You can't come and complain later, right Like, you can 1691 01:30:56,880 --> 01:30:58,800 Speaker 1: either get in line and wait for us to tell 1692 01:30:58,920 --> 01:31:01,720 Speaker 1: you whether an out your merger is legal, or you 1693 01:31:01,800 --> 01:31:03,720 Speaker 1: can roll the dice. But I tell you what, if 1694 01:31:03,760 --> 01:31:06,880 Speaker 1: you come up sneake, guys, you are fucked. And that 1695 01:31:07,120 --> 01:31:10,879 Speaker 1: is amazing, right, That is a powerful change in American 1696 01:31:10,920 --> 01:31:15,040 Speaker 1: industrial policy that really makes a difference. Yeah, I mean, 1697 01:31:15,080 --> 01:31:18,240 Speaker 1: and that is a beautiful thing to think of being 1698 01:31:18,320 --> 01:31:21,479 Speaker 1: in place and actually hitting as hard as it could. Obviously, 1699 01:31:21,600 --> 01:31:24,519 Speaker 1: the concern is that like who will be you know, 1700 01:31:24,600 --> 01:31:27,400 Speaker 1: picking the head of the FTC in three years in change? 1701 01:31:27,439 --> 01:31:30,240 Speaker 1: And like how how how much influence is Peter tal 1702 01:31:30,280 --> 01:31:32,960 Speaker 1: going to have their in the Like um, yeah, well, 1703 01:31:33,040 --> 01:31:35,840 Speaker 1: and Peter Til of course loves monopolies. He says competition 1704 01:31:35,960 --> 01:31:39,679 Speaker 1: is for losers. So you're right, I mean, obviously elections 1705 01:31:39,720 --> 01:31:43,160 Speaker 1: have consequences, but you know, one of the ways that 1706 01:31:43,240 --> 01:31:46,280 Speaker 1: you win elections is by making material differences in people's lives, 1707 01:31:46,800 --> 01:31:51,000 Speaker 1: and so you know, if people are policy, then uh. 1708 01:31:52,080 --> 01:31:54,400 Speaker 1: One of the most important policies Biden has set so 1709 01:31:54,560 --> 01:31:58,160 Speaker 1: far is hiring Lena Khan and her colleagues cantor at 1710 01:31:58,160 --> 01:32:01,240 Speaker 1: the d o J and Tim Wu and the White House. Yeah, 1711 01:32:01,280 --> 01:32:03,880 Speaker 1: I mean I would I would love nothing more than 1712 01:32:03,920 --> 01:32:07,519 Speaker 1: to see particularly like Facebook reigned in at this point 1713 01:32:07,560 --> 01:32:10,040 Speaker 1: because I'm one of the casualties of the of the 1714 01:32:10,400 --> 01:32:13,960 Speaker 1: of the the ad market like crash of started in 1715 01:32:14,040 --> 01:32:18,080 Speaker 1: like two sixteen seventeen. It feels like the odds of 1716 01:32:18,120 --> 01:32:21,080 Speaker 1: them being able to like, I don't know, we we've 1717 01:32:21,120 --> 01:32:26,400 Speaker 1: got three years where we know, you know, theoretically these 1718 01:32:26,479 --> 01:32:29,640 Speaker 1: policies will be in place, and and I don't know, 1719 01:32:29,720 --> 01:32:31,840 Speaker 1: I'm hopeful, Like when I when I because the Republicans 1720 01:32:31,880 --> 01:32:34,479 Speaker 1: are talking a lot about regulating social media too, about 1721 01:32:34,560 --> 01:32:37,080 Speaker 1: even breaking up these companies, but they often tend to 1722 01:32:37,120 --> 01:32:38,960 Speaker 1: be talking about it in a very different way and 1723 01:32:39,040 --> 01:32:42,080 Speaker 1: with a very different kind of end goal in mind. Um, 1724 01:32:42,840 --> 01:32:45,839 Speaker 1: And I guess you know, obviously they know that, right Facebook, 1725 01:32:45,920 --> 01:32:48,600 Speaker 1: they are well aware that like this might be a 1726 01:32:48,640 --> 01:32:50,760 Speaker 1: weight out the clock situation for them, and they have 1727 01:32:50,920 --> 01:32:53,560 Speaker 1: some arrows in that quiver. I mean that may be so, 1728 01:32:53,720 --> 01:32:56,960 Speaker 1: but also remember that Facebook's users are outside of the US, 1729 01:32:57,600 --> 01:33:00,439 Speaker 1: and that even a change in a minister aation here 1730 01:33:00,479 --> 01:33:04,720 Speaker 1: won't won't um put Marguerite vest Dagger, who's the Competition 1731 01:33:04,800 --> 01:33:07,360 Speaker 1: commissioner in the EU, back in the bottle. And she's 1732 01:33:07,360 --> 01:33:10,640 Speaker 1: another fire breather, right, She's another amazing person, And so 1733 01:33:10,840 --> 01:33:13,639 Speaker 1: you know, I wouldn't be too quick to write that off. 1734 01:33:13,680 --> 01:33:17,240 Speaker 1: I mean, Facebook needs its foreign markets. Yes, It's U 1735 01:33:17,400 --> 01:33:19,320 Speaker 1: S customers are worth more to anyone else because we 1736 01:33:19,400 --> 01:33:22,599 Speaker 1: have the most primitive privacy frameworks, so it can extract 1737 01:33:22,640 --> 01:33:24,160 Speaker 1: a lot more data for like we're the we're the 1738 01:33:24,280 --> 01:33:27,840 Speaker 1: richest people with the worst privacy. So that's that's um, 1739 01:33:28,360 --> 01:33:30,679 Speaker 1: you know, it's a real home court advantage for Facebook. 1740 01:33:30,720 --> 01:33:32,799 Speaker 1: But it needs that other eight percent of its users. 1741 01:33:32,840 --> 01:33:35,120 Speaker 1: It wouldn't be what it is without them, and that 1742 01:33:35,240 --> 01:33:37,840 Speaker 1: makes it subject to their jurisdiction. And you know, one 1743 01:33:37,840 --> 01:33:41,639 Speaker 1: of the things about ad driven firms like Facebook, UM 1744 01:33:41,960 --> 01:33:46,120 Speaker 1: is that they really need sales offices in country. Uh 1745 01:33:46,320 --> 01:33:49,120 Speaker 1: So you know, even before we we had the proliferation 1746 01:33:49,200 --> 01:33:51,280 Speaker 1: national firewalls, which don't get me wrong, I don't think 1747 01:33:51,320 --> 01:33:56,560 Speaker 1: it's a good thing. UM. These large global firms that 1748 01:33:56,800 --> 01:34:00,840 Speaker 1: operated UM sales offices in country, in every territory they 1749 01:34:00,920 --> 01:34:03,920 Speaker 1: worked in, were vulnerable to regulation because if you have 1750 01:34:04,200 --> 01:34:07,320 Speaker 1: staff in a country, then you have someone that can 1751 01:34:07,360 --> 01:34:11,760 Speaker 1: be arrested, right, And so it's not like they can 1752 01:34:12,680 --> 01:34:15,200 Speaker 1: just be like I don't know, like the Tour Project, 1753 01:34:15,600 --> 01:34:19,200 Speaker 1: which just you know, it has people um who who 1754 01:34:19,320 --> 01:34:22,040 Speaker 1: sit and hack on tour who are close to lawyers 1755 01:34:22,080 --> 01:34:25,400 Speaker 1: who can defend people who sit on hack and on tour. Uh. 1756 01:34:25,640 --> 01:34:28,040 Speaker 1: You know, if the Tour Project had to have staff 1757 01:34:28,120 --> 01:34:32,879 Speaker 1: full time in Turkey and China and Russia and Syria 1758 01:34:33,040 --> 01:34:36,439 Speaker 1: in order to operate, it would be a very different project. 1759 01:34:36,800 --> 01:34:40,040 Speaker 1: But you know, Facebook and Twitter and Google, they all 1760 01:34:40,160 --> 01:34:43,080 Speaker 1: have staff in those countries, and it makes them vulnerable 1761 01:34:43,120 --> 01:34:47,080 Speaker 1: to regulation and So you know, China is really interesting 1762 01:34:47,120 --> 01:34:51,280 Speaker 1: because because m jin Ping, for his own reasons, which 1763 01:34:51,320 --> 01:34:55,160 Speaker 1: are not my reasons and distinct from the Democrats and 1764 01:34:55,200 --> 01:34:58,200 Speaker 1: the Republicans reasons, is doing stuff to rein in big 1765 01:34:58,280 --> 01:35:01,120 Speaker 1: tech in China. And it's a actually quite interesting because 1766 01:35:01,160 --> 01:35:03,000 Speaker 1: you know the argument that Nick Klegg makes when he 1767 01:35:03,040 --> 01:35:05,640 Speaker 1: says why we shouldn't break up Facebook, as he says, uh, 1768 01:35:06,120 --> 01:35:09,840 Speaker 1: you know, China is coming for your UM, for your 1769 01:35:09,960 --> 01:35:14,280 Speaker 1: I P and for your industrial competitiveness with its big 1770 01:35:14,360 --> 01:35:17,559 Speaker 1: tech giants that it treats as national champions that projects 1771 01:35:17,560 --> 01:35:21,040 Speaker 1: soft power around the world. Meanwhile, China is like these 1772 01:35:21,120 --> 01:35:24,000 Speaker 1: tech giants, we hate these tech giants. They present a 1773 01:35:24,080 --> 01:35:27,040 Speaker 1: countervailing force to the hedgeminy of the the Communist Party 1774 01:35:27,080 --> 01:35:29,439 Speaker 1: and the and the executive branch that she should bring 1775 01:35:29,479 --> 01:35:31,800 Speaker 1: sets at the top of We're gonna neuter them and 1776 01:35:31,840 --> 01:35:35,080 Speaker 1: we're gonna we're gonna disappear their founders like Jack Montt 1777 01:35:35,280 --> 01:35:39,280 Speaker 1: fucking googlogs right Like, they're like, we don't want national 1778 01:35:39,439 --> 01:35:42,760 Speaker 1: champions because the nation that you know, we Bow and 1779 01:35:42,920 --> 01:35:45,880 Speaker 1: Ali Baba is the champion four is we Bow and 1780 01:35:45,920 --> 01:35:49,000 Speaker 1: Ali Baba and ten Cent. They're not They're not champions 1781 01:35:49,080 --> 01:35:52,280 Speaker 1: for China by any stretch of the imagination. They don't 1782 01:35:52,280 --> 01:35:54,960 Speaker 1: give a shit about China, and so you know, they're 1783 01:35:55,280 --> 01:35:58,320 Speaker 1: all of these companies are going to face regulatory pressure, 1784 01:35:58,720 --> 01:36:02,560 Speaker 1: anti monopoly, regular tory pressure all over the world, and 1785 01:36:02,680 --> 01:36:06,840 Speaker 1: you're you're so much more um optimistic. I guess about 1786 01:36:07,160 --> 01:36:09,800 Speaker 1: about the potential for that to bite than a lot 1787 01:36:09,840 --> 01:36:11,760 Speaker 1: of people I talked to, and I think more knowledgeable 1788 01:36:11,800 --> 01:36:13,760 Speaker 1: as well. And I kind of wonder because there's this 1789 01:36:13,920 --> 01:36:17,960 Speaker 1: very strong, obviously influenced by decades of cyberpunk attitude that like, 1790 01:36:18,080 --> 01:36:21,760 Speaker 1: we're in this age of mega corporations whose power is 1791 01:36:22,040 --> 01:36:25,280 Speaker 1: you know, there's nothing that can stop Amazon from doing 1792 01:36:25,320 --> 01:36:27,160 Speaker 1: what Amazon wants to do, right, Facebook is going to 1793 01:36:27,280 --> 01:36:29,680 Speaker 1: keep doing whatever they want to do forever. You you 1794 01:36:29,800 --> 01:36:32,680 Speaker 1: clearly don't believe that, and I you know you, you 1795 01:36:32,800 --> 01:36:36,439 Speaker 1: clearly know your stuff. I'm wondering why you think that 1796 01:36:37,640 --> 01:36:40,920 Speaker 1: that image is still persist, so persistent that like attitude 1797 01:36:41,000 --> 01:36:44,680 Speaker 1: in our heads of these these these are kind of 1798 01:36:44,800 --> 01:36:48,160 Speaker 1: monolithic forces in our society that um just have to 1799 01:36:48,240 --> 01:36:51,280 Speaker 1: be endured. So I think it's a belief in the 1800 01:36:51,400 --> 01:36:55,240 Speaker 1: great forces of history, right, UM, and the great man theory. 1801 01:36:55,880 --> 01:37:00,439 Speaker 1: You know that the the these um uh you know 1802 01:37:00,560 --> 01:37:05,519 Speaker 1: that these rich people are driving history. Yeah, these these 1803 01:37:05,680 --> 01:37:08,400 Speaker 1: these powerful figures are driving history. They're in charge there 1804 01:37:08,439 --> 01:37:10,160 Speaker 1: in the driver's seat. I mean, that's kind of what's 1805 01:37:10,200 --> 01:37:12,800 Speaker 1: behind Trump arrangement syndrome, right, the idea that Trump is 1806 01:37:12,840 --> 01:37:17,920 Speaker 1: a uniquely powerful and talented demagogue as opposed to just 1807 01:37:18,200 --> 01:37:21,280 Speaker 1: like a demagogue shaped puzzle piece that fit in the 1808 01:37:21,360 --> 01:37:24,360 Speaker 1: demagogue shaped hole that was left by the collapse of 1809 01:37:24,400 --> 01:37:27,599 Speaker 1: credibility of capitalism. Uh. And you know, a man who 1810 01:37:27,720 --> 01:37:30,080 Speaker 1: is clearly too stupid to be a cause of anything, 1811 01:37:30,120 --> 01:37:34,000 Speaker 1: that will only ever be the effect of something. And uh, 1812 01:37:35,000 --> 01:37:38,679 Speaker 1: you know the for me, the theory of of history 1813 01:37:38,840 --> 01:37:43,480 Speaker 1: and how it goes was really transformed by an exercise 1814 01:37:43,600 --> 01:37:46,280 Speaker 1: that my friend Ada Palmer does. So. Aida is a 1815 01:37:46,439 --> 01:37:49,639 Speaker 1: science fiction novelist. She's she's just published the fourth book 1816 01:37:49,680 --> 01:37:52,360 Speaker 1: of her Terra Ignota series, her debut series. It's in 1817 01:37:52,400 --> 01:37:55,640 Speaker 1: an incredible series of books. But she's a real like 1818 01:37:55,720 --> 01:37:58,520 Speaker 1: kind of multi talented, multi threat. So she's a librettist 1819 01:37:58,600 --> 01:38:02,040 Speaker 1: and singer who's pretty album length operas based on the 1820 01:38:02,200 --> 01:38:07,080 Speaker 1: Norse mythos. She's also a tenured history of UM, a 1821 01:38:07,160 --> 01:38:10,479 Speaker 1: tenured professor of Renaissance history in Florence at the University 1822 01:38:10,479 --> 01:38:16,320 Speaker 1: of Chicago, where she studies heterodox information, pornography, homosexuality, witchcraft, 1823 01:38:16,400 --> 01:38:19,439 Speaker 1: and so on. During the inquisitions and every year with 1824 01:38:19,600 --> 01:38:24,160 Speaker 1: her undergrads, she reenacts through a four week long live 1825 01:38:24,200 --> 01:38:26,960 Speaker 1: action role playing game, the Election of the Medici's Pope, 1826 01:38:27,640 --> 01:38:29,960 Speaker 1: and each of her students takes on the role of 1827 01:38:30,040 --> 01:38:34,080 Speaker 1: a cardinal from a great family and the in the 1828 01:38:34,200 --> 01:38:38,920 Speaker 1: actual election of the I forget what year was, uh fifteen, 1829 01:38:39,120 --> 01:38:43,800 Speaker 1: fourteen ninety or something, I forget, but they each take 1830 01:38:43,880 --> 01:38:47,640 Speaker 1: on this role and they have a character sheet and 1831 01:38:47,760 --> 01:38:50,680 Speaker 1: has motivations like a dinner party, murder mystery. But for 1832 01:38:50,880 --> 01:38:55,720 Speaker 1: four weeks they make alliances, break alliances, stab each other 1833 01:38:55,800 --> 01:38:59,519 Speaker 1: in the back uh stage surprise reversals, and at the 1834 01:38:59,600 --> 01:39:03,960 Speaker 1: end of the weeks there's a u faux Gothic cathedral 1835 01:39:04,120 --> 01:39:08,160 Speaker 1: on campus and they dress up in costume. Aida has 1836 01:39:08,240 --> 01:39:11,719 Speaker 1: a a Google alert for theater companies that are getting 1837 01:39:11,800 --> 01:39:14,320 Speaker 1: rid of their costumes, so she clothes them in the 1838 01:39:14,520 --> 01:39:19,680 Speaker 1: garb of the Medici's cardinals, and they gather and they 1839 01:39:19,800 --> 01:39:22,160 Speaker 1: go into a room and then a puff of smoke 1840 01:39:22,240 --> 01:39:25,960 Speaker 1: emerges and you get the new Pope and every year 1841 01:39:26,760 --> 01:39:30,040 Speaker 1: four of the final candidates, uh, there are four final 1842 01:39:30,080 --> 01:39:32,559 Speaker 1: candidates rather, and two of them are always the same 1843 01:39:33,320 --> 01:39:35,560 Speaker 1: because the great forces of history bear down on that 1844 01:39:35,720 --> 01:39:38,040 Speaker 1: moment to say those people will absolutely be in the 1845 01:39:38,120 --> 01:39:42,519 Speaker 1: running for the for the papacy, and two of them 1846 01:39:42,600 --> 01:39:47,439 Speaker 1: have never once been the same, because human action still 1847 01:39:47,640 --> 01:39:52,080 Speaker 1: has space to alter the outcomes that are prefigured by 1848 01:39:52,120 --> 01:39:56,400 Speaker 1: the great forces of history. And so for me, the 1849 01:39:56,560 --> 01:39:59,439 Speaker 1: idea of being an optimist or a pessimist has always 1850 01:39:59,479 --> 01:40:03,080 Speaker 1: felt very fatalistic. It's this either way, this idea that 1851 01:40:03,120 --> 01:40:05,080 Speaker 1: the great forces of history have determined the outcome and 1852 01:40:05,160 --> 01:40:07,800 Speaker 1: human action has no bearing on it. And I think 1853 01:40:07,880 --> 01:40:12,000 Speaker 1: that rather than optimism or pessimism, we can be hopeful. 1854 01:40:12,080 --> 01:40:14,680 Speaker 1: And that's the word you use before. Hope is the 1855 01:40:14,800 --> 01:40:17,040 Speaker 1: idea not that you can see a path from here 1856 01:40:17,120 --> 01:40:19,519 Speaker 1: to the place you want to get to, but rather 1857 01:40:19,640 --> 01:40:21,439 Speaker 1: that you haven't run out of things that you can 1858 01:40:21,520 --> 01:40:24,560 Speaker 1: do to advance your your goal, right, Because if you 1859 01:40:24,680 --> 01:40:27,599 Speaker 1: can take a step to advance your goal, you can 1860 01:40:27,640 --> 01:40:31,719 Speaker 1: ascend the gradient towards the peak that you're trying to reach, 1861 01:40:32,280 --> 01:40:35,280 Speaker 1: then you will attain a new vantage point, and from 1862 01:40:35,360 --> 01:40:37,759 Speaker 1: that vantage point you may have revealed to you courses 1863 01:40:37,800 --> 01:40:41,240 Speaker 1: of action that you didn't suspect before you took that step. 1864 01:40:41,520 --> 01:40:43,759 Speaker 1: So so long as the step is available, there's always 1865 01:40:43,800 --> 01:40:46,360 Speaker 1: another step lurking in the wings that you can't see 1866 01:40:46,439 --> 01:40:49,160 Speaker 1: from where you are. And the reason I'm hopeful about 1867 01:40:49,200 --> 01:40:52,240 Speaker 1: this is I can think of like fifty things that 1868 01:40:52,360 --> 01:40:56,240 Speaker 1: could improve the monopoly picture that we're living in now, 1869 01:40:56,680 --> 01:40:59,400 Speaker 1: and it's up from thirty things last year. And so 1870 01:40:59,760 --> 01:41:01,519 Speaker 1: even though I don't know how we get from here 1871 01:41:01,600 --> 01:41:03,800 Speaker 1: to a better future, and even though I absolutely see 1872 01:41:03,800 --> 01:41:08,759 Speaker 1: the blockers you're talking about Trump landslide, uh losing Congress 1873 01:41:08,840 --> 01:41:12,560 Speaker 1: because they let Joe Mansion and Christmas Cinema newter the 1874 01:41:12,760 --> 01:41:15,880 Speaker 1: build back better, Bill, Um, you know all of those 1875 01:41:15,960 --> 01:41:19,400 Speaker 1: things that can happen. I have hope, you know, which 1876 01:41:19,479 --> 01:41:21,920 Speaker 1: is not the same as optimism or a belief that 1877 01:41:22,120 --> 01:41:25,320 Speaker 1: things will be great, or even even like a sense 1878 01:41:25,760 --> 01:41:27,880 Speaker 1: a lack of a sense of foreboding. I have that 1879 01:41:28,040 --> 01:41:31,559 Speaker 1: in spades. But I have hoped that when the next 1880 01:41:31,600 --> 01:41:34,240 Speaker 1: phase of the fight begins, that we will have many 1881 01:41:34,760 --> 01:41:38,760 Speaker 1: um vulnerable spots we can strike at, and that we 1882 01:41:38,920 --> 01:41:42,439 Speaker 1: can capitalize on whichever victories we attain to find more 1883 01:41:42,520 --> 01:41:46,280 Speaker 1: vulnerabilities and move on. I think that's so important and 1884 01:41:46,439 --> 01:41:48,360 Speaker 1: I think it goes in line with to bring up 1885 01:41:48,360 --> 01:41:50,240 Speaker 1: climate change again. The idea that like one of the 1886 01:41:50,280 --> 01:41:52,920 Speaker 1: most toxic things you can think are e climate change 1887 01:41:52,960 --> 01:41:55,639 Speaker 1: is that there's nothing to do. We're already past every 1888 01:41:55,680 --> 01:41:58,639 Speaker 1: point of no return and there's no there's no positive 1889 01:41:58,680 --> 01:42:00,519 Speaker 1: action because it just leads you to doing the same 1890 01:42:00,600 --> 01:42:03,439 Speaker 1: thing as the people who deny it. UM and it's 1891 01:42:03,520 --> 01:42:06,920 Speaker 1: it's yeah, I think it's it's very important to um 1892 01:42:07,800 --> 01:42:10,080 Speaker 1: recognized that like, not only are there things you can do, 1893 01:42:10,240 --> 01:42:12,439 Speaker 1: but when you do those things, you start taking those steps, 1894 01:42:12,520 --> 01:42:17,000 Speaker 1: other steps reveal themselves. Yeah, and you know what, if 1895 01:42:17,040 --> 01:42:21,679 Speaker 1: you're feeling nihilistic about about climate I'm nearly through Saul 1896 01:42:21,720 --> 01:42:25,519 Speaker 1: Griffith's book Electrify Uh. Saul's an old friend of mine. 1897 01:42:25,560 --> 01:42:29,240 Speaker 1: He's MacArthur Winner's electrical engineer, and he's just done the 1898 01:42:29,400 --> 01:42:31,400 Speaker 1: He's it's a popular engineering book. It's one of my 1899 01:42:31,439 --> 01:42:34,760 Speaker 1: favorite genres. They're like popular science books, except instead of 1900 01:42:34,840 --> 01:42:36,679 Speaker 1: telling you about how science works, they tell you about 1901 01:42:36,680 --> 01:42:40,200 Speaker 1: how engineering works. And he's basically like, here is why 1902 01:42:40,320 --> 01:42:43,360 Speaker 1: all the estimates of how much renewables we need are 1903 01:42:43,680 --> 01:42:49,799 Speaker 1: hugely overestimated, and it's basically that like keeping uh fossil 1904 01:42:49,880 --> 01:42:53,680 Speaker 1: fuel power online requires a lot of fossil fuel, right, 1905 01:42:53,760 --> 01:42:57,160 Speaker 1: so something like of that estimate is just it's the 1906 01:42:57,479 --> 01:43:00,439 Speaker 1: energy that we need to make the energy, and it's 1907 01:43:00,479 --> 01:43:03,640 Speaker 1: not present in electrical models. Here's how we can manufacture it. 1908 01:43:03,720 --> 01:43:06,200 Speaker 1: Here's how we can distribute it. Here is basically how 1909 01:43:07,040 --> 01:43:11,840 Speaker 1: if we can figure out the financing, Americans can uh 1910 01:43:12,240 --> 01:43:15,040 Speaker 1: spend less money every year than they do now to 1911 01:43:15,200 --> 01:43:18,080 Speaker 1: get more stuff that they love every year. That we 1912 01:43:18,160 --> 01:43:22,479 Speaker 1: can do this without hair shirts. It's a spectacular book. Um, 1913 01:43:22,640 --> 01:43:25,519 Speaker 1: And you know, I don't agree with everything Saul says 1914 01:43:25,600 --> 01:43:29,639 Speaker 1: every all the time, but he is very careful about 1915 01:43:30,000 --> 01:43:33,960 Speaker 1: his technical facts. There aren't technical errors in this. There 1916 01:43:34,040 --> 01:43:36,479 Speaker 1: might be assumptions that we disagree with, but as a 1917 01:43:36,560 --> 01:43:39,880 Speaker 1: technical matter, he's basically written a piece of design fiction 1918 01:43:40,320 --> 01:43:44,040 Speaker 1: in which, over the next fifteen years, using clever finance 1919 01:43:44,320 --> 01:43:48,800 Speaker 1: and and solid engineering, we really actually do avert the 1920 01:43:48,880 --> 01:43:53,240 Speaker 1: climate emergency. And yeah, as always, kind of the main 1921 01:43:53,840 --> 01:43:56,560 Speaker 1: barriers to doing the best version of the thing is 1922 01:43:56,880 --> 01:43:59,800 Speaker 1: the political realities on the ground. You know, you have to, 1923 01:44:00,600 --> 01:44:02,479 Speaker 1: but I think that's the that's the value of at 1924 01:44:02,520 --> 01:44:05,519 Speaker 1: least trying to make it clear that there are options. 1925 01:44:06,600 --> 01:44:09,400 Speaker 1: I wanted to shift for a moment um. I was 1926 01:44:09,479 --> 01:44:12,639 Speaker 1: thinking recently about I think probably the earliest back book 1927 01:44:12,680 --> 01:44:16,439 Speaker 1: of yours that I've read, Pirate Cinema, which is heavily involved. 1928 01:44:16,439 --> 01:44:19,360 Speaker 1: I think I'm gonna you know, if you're one of 1929 01:44:19,439 --> 01:44:22,040 Speaker 1: the folks like me who was on the Internet back 1930 01:44:22,080 --> 01:44:25,080 Speaker 1: when you know, file sharing sites, when that was a 1931 01:44:25,160 --> 01:44:27,640 Speaker 1: huge topic of discussion, when the r i A Was 1932 01:44:27,720 --> 01:44:31,560 Speaker 1: going after people, when like copyright was kind of a 1933 01:44:32,080 --> 01:44:37,040 Speaker 1: a much more prevalent part of kind of the online discourse. Um. 1934 01:44:37,320 --> 01:44:39,400 Speaker 1: It deals a lot in that and these kind of 1935 01:44:39,640 --> 01:44:42,440 Speaker 1: I think there's elements of it that kind of prefigured 1936 01:44:42,520 --> 01:44:46,920 Speaker 1: what Disney has done buying up every imaginable fictional property 1937 01:44:46,960 --> 01:44:49,320 Speaker 1: in the world. And that's kind of the the elements 1938 01:44:49,360 --> 01:44:52,400 Speaker 1: of dystopia that book deals with is is, you know, 1939 01:44:52,479 --> 01:44:56,120 Speaker 1: the attempts of these this these giant multinational entertainment corporations 1940 01:44:56,200 --> 01:44:59,559 Speaker 1: to shut down the free tape trading of ideas, remixing 1941 01:44:59,600 --> 01:45:02,559 Speaker 1: and all that stuff. And then kind of thinking about 1942 01:45:02,600 --> 01:45:05,400 Speaker 1: the difference between the focus of that and the focus 1943 01:45:05,479 --> 01:45:08,080 Speaker 1: of books like Attack Surface, where you're really delving more 1944 01:45:08,160 --> 01:45:11,559 Speaker 1: into you know, I the fictional versions of real life 1945 01:45:11,600 --> 01:45:15,040 Speaker 1: companies like Tiger Swan that do it, uh what the 1946 01:45:15,280 --> 01:45:18,800 Speaker 1: surveillance on protesters and all around the world, and that 1947 01:45:18,880 --> 01:45:22,880 Speaker 1: are kind of using tactics that were pioneered by other contractors, 1948 01:45:22,920 --> 01:45:26,920 Speaker 1: and like Iraq and Afghanistan years earlier. I guess kind 1949 01:45:26,960 --> 01:45:28,640 Speaker 1: of the things that I find interesting about that as 1950 01:45:28,760 --> 01:45:31,360 Speaker 1: as I can remember when I was first on the Internet, 1951 01:45:31,560 --> 01:45:35,240 Speaker 1: the big social kind of crusades online with the people 1952 01:45:35,920 --> 01:45:38,120 Speaker 1: that that I paid attention to at least was all 1953 01:45:38,160 --> 01:45:40,880 Speaker 1: around copyright. It was about not just you know, the 1954 01:45:40,960 --> 01:45:44,519 Speaker 1: attempts to stop people from remixing and sharing copyrighted work, 1955 01:45:44,560 --> 01:45:49,200 Speaker 1: but about um attempts to like buy up copyrights and 1956 01:45:49,439 --> 01:45:55,040 Speaker 1: like into these these ever kind of larger uh agglomerations, 1957 01:45:55,160 --> 01:45:57,960 Speaker 1: and and that's kind of hit. It seems to have 1958 01:45:58,120 --> 01:46:00,719 Speaker 1: hit like a terminal point with the you know, movies 1959 01:46:00,840 --> 01:46:03,760 Speaker 1: like ready Player one and kind of a lot of 1960 01:46:03,800 --> 01:46:05,800 Speaker 1: the stuff we're seeing in Marble where everything is showing 1961 01:46:05,880 --> 01:46:10,599 Speaker 1: up everywhere, Space Jam two. UM. I guess the part 1962 01:46:10,640 --> 01:46:12,960 Speaker 1: of it that feels less dystopian the days attempts to 1963 01:46:13,000 --> 01:46:15,920 Speaker 1: crack down on file sharing, which I don't think went 1964 01:46:16,240 --> 01:46:18,759 Speaker 1: kind of in the worst case scenario. I'm interested actually 1965 01:46:18,800 --> 01:46:21,280 Speaker 1: in your thoughts on that, UM, because I can remember, 1966 01:46:21,360 --> 01:46:23,879 Speaker 1: you know, when the r I A would be threatening 1967 01:46:23,920 --> 01:46:26,840 Speaker 1: people with years in jail and whatnot over sharing stuff 1968 01:46:26,880 --> 01:46:29,479 Speaker 1: on kaza we seem to be I don't know. Is 1969 01:46:29,520 --> 01:46:31,360 Speaker 1: it just that it gets less like I'm interested in 1970 01:46:31,400 --> 01:46:32,680 Speaker 1: your in your thoughts on that. Is it just that 1971 01:46:32,760 --> 01:46:36,000 Speaker 1: it's less publicized when they crack down on people, or 1972 01:46:36,040 --> 01:46:38,080 Speaker 1: has kind of the nature of their response to that 1973 01:46:38,240 --> 01:46:41,120 Speaker 1: really changed. Well, I think that what's happened with the 1974 01:46:41,840 --> 01:46:44,640 Speaker 1: kind of steady state of the copyright wars has been 1975 01:46:44,680 --> 01:46:48,840 Speaker 1: the introduction of um brittleness and fragility into our speech 1976 01:46:48,880 --> 01:46:53,599 Speaker 1: platforms like Twitter, uh and and Facebook and YouTube, where 1977 01:46:53,600 --> 01:46:56,960 Speaker 1: it's very easy to get material removed by by making 1978 01:46:57,040 --> 01:47:00,280 Speaker 1: copyright claims UM. And you know, we see out with 1979 01:47:00,400 --> 01:47:03,760 Speaker 1: the sleazier side of the reputation management industry where they 1980 01:47:03,880 --> 01:47:08,840 Speaker 1: use bogus copyright claims to take down criticisms. You know, 1981 01:47:08,960 --> 01:47:12,000 Speaker 1: there was a group of leftists who are really celebrating 1982 01:47:12,160 --> 01:47:15,040 Speaker 1: the idea that if you if Nazis were marching in 1983 01:47:15,080 --> 01:47:18,000 Speaker 1: your town, you could stop them from uploading their videos 1984 01:47:18,080 --> 01:47:20,760 Speaker 1: by playing copyrighted music in the background, and I was like, 1985 01:47:21,320 --> 01:47:23,920 Speaker 1: you have no idea, what a terrible fucking idea that is. 1986 01:47:24,320 --> 01:47:26,960 Speaker 1: And you know, within a couple of years, cops and 1987 01:47:27,040 --> 01:47:29,439 Speaker 1: Beverly Hills were doing it. Whenever people tried to film 1988 01:47:29,479 --> 01:47:31,519 Speaker 1: the police there, they would just turn on some Taylor 1989 01:47:31,600 --> 01:47:34,560 Speaker 1: Swift to try and stop uploading. UM. You know, the 1990 01:47:34,920 --> 01:47:39,519 Speaker 1: thing about the copyright wars is that the real action 1991 01:47:39,760 --> 01:47:45,160 Speaker 1: turned out to be in UM wage theft through monopolization. So, 1992 01:47:45,439 --> 01:47:50,960 Speaker 1: you know, the neutering and destruction of label independent music 1993 01:47:51,040 --> 01:47:55,280 Speaker 1: distribution platforms like Khazah or Groster or Napster, and the 1994 01:47:55,360 --> 01:47:59,840 Speaker 1: Supreme Court decision, the Groster decision that supported that meant 1995 01:48:00,000 --> 01:48:02,600 Speaker 1: that the only UM way that you could launch a 1996 01:48:02,680 --> 01:48:05,719 Speaker 1: service like that was in cooperation with the big labels, 1997 01:48:06,320 --> 01:48:10,679 Speaker 1: and the you know, most successful one is Spotify. Spotify 1998 01:48:10,840 --> 01:48:14,439 Speaker 1: is actually partially owned by the labels, and the labels 1999 01:48:14,520 --> 01:48:18,760 Speaker 1: use that ownership stake to negotiate a kind of formalized 2000 01:48:18,800 --> 01:48:23,759 Speaker 1: wage theft where they allowed for a lower perse stream 2001 01:48:23,880 --> 01:48:27,000 Speaker 1: rate because when they get royalties for a stream, part 2002 01:48:27,080 --> 01:48:30,920 Speaker 1: of that money goes to their musicians. And that meant 2003 01:48:30,920 --> 01:48:34,639 Speaker 1: that the firm Spotify, retain more profits which it returned 2004 01:48:34,680 --> 01:48:37,599 Speaker 1: to it in the form of higher dividends, and dividends 2005 01:48:37,640 --> 01:48:40,679 Speaker 1: go just straight to their shareholders. They don't that there's 2006 01:48:40,720 --> 01:48:43,599 Speaker 1: no claim that musicians can make on this. And because 2007 01:48:43,680 --> 01:48:47,520 Speaker 1: they set the benchmark rate, it meant that everyone, irrespective 2008 01:48:47,560 --> 01:48:48,920 Speaker 1: of whether you were assigned to one of the big 2009 01:48:49,000 --> 01:48:54,040 Speaker 1: three labels, ended up getting the same per stream rate 2010 01:48:54,280 --> 01:48:57,919 Speaker 1: as as Universal's artists. So they were able to structure 2011 01:48:58,000 --> 01:49:01,120 Speaker 1: the whole market. In the meantime, in the industrial side, 2012 01:49:01,640 --> 01:49:04,479 Speaker 1: UH copyright laws, notably Section twelve of one of the 2013 01:49:04,520 --> 01:49:09,120 Speaker 1: Digital Millennium Copyright Act, which is a law past that 2014 01:49:09,240 --> 01:49:13,000 Speaker 1: makes it a felony to remove DRM to bypass a 2015 01:49:13,080 --> 01:49:16,640 Speaker 1: technical protection measure UM that has become the go to 2016 01:49:16,960 --> 01:49:22,920 Speaker 1: system for blocking, repair, interoperability UH and to prevent third 2017 01:49:22,960 --> 01:49:27,679 Speaker 1: parties from um UH from from creating services or add 2018 01:49:27,760 --> 01:49:32,920 Speaker 1: ons that accomplish positive ends like improved accessibility, improved security, 2019 01:49:33,560 --> 01:49:37,080 Speaker 1: um AD blocking and privacy and so on. They just say, well, 2020 01:49:37,160 --> 01:49:39,840 Speaker 1: you know, we we put a one molecule thick layer 2021 01:49:39,880 --> 01:49:42,560 Speaker 1: of DRM around say YouTube, and when you make a 2022 01:49:42,640 --> 01:49:47,160 Speaker 1: YouTube downloader for archival purposes or whatever, UM, you you 2023 01:49:47,320 --> 01:49:51,679 Speaker 1: just create a um A UH you bypass our technical 2024 01:49:51,720 --> 01:49:54,760 Speaker 1: protection measure and so you're committing a felony, and you 2025 01:49:54,800 --> 01:49:56,840 Speaker 1: can go to prison for five years and and pay 2026 01:49:56,840 --> 01:50:00,080 Speaker 1: a five dollar fine. And so you have this like 2027 01:50:00,160 --> 01:50:05,800 Speaker 1: relentless monotonic expansion of DRM into like automotive tractors. Medtronic 2028 01:50:05,960 --> 01:50:09,560 Speaker 1: uses it to block people from fixing ventilators. UM. So 2029 01:50:09,960 --> 01:50:14,840 Speaker 1: you know, this, this UM assault on the ability to 2030 01:50:15,040 --> 01:50:19,639 Speaker 1: reconfigure a technology that is ever more prevalent in our 2031 01:50:19,760 --> 01:50:22,760 Speaker 1: lives and that increasingly holds our lives in its in 2032 01:50:22,880 --> 01:50:25,920 Speaker 1: its hands right its choices determine whether we live or 2033 01:50:26,000 --> 01:50:29,439 Speaker 1: die has been really consequential. And I know we don't 2034 01:50:29,479 --> 01:50:31,680 Speaker 1: really think of it as a copyright problem. We think 2035 01:50:31,680 --> 01:50:33,280 Speaker 1: of it as right to repair. We think of a 2036 01:50:33,360 --> 01:50:37,559 Speaker 1: security auditing our accessibility. But the rule that is being 2037 01:50:37,680 --> 01:50:41,280 Speaker 1: used to block into operability is a copyright law. It's 2038 01:50:41,360 --> 01:50:44,040 Speaker 1: what printer companies used to stop you from buying third 2039 01:50:44,080 --> 01:50:47,160 Speaker 1: party inc um. It's what Apple uses to stop you 2040 01:50:47,280 --> 01:50:49,560 Speaker 1: from installing a third party app store. And you know, 2041 01:50:49,680 --> 01:50:51,800 Speaker 1: the absence of a third party app store is why 2042 01:50:52,080 --> 01:50:56,799 Speaker 1: when Apple removed all the working VPNs in China, Chinese 2043 01:50:56,880 --> 01:50:59,320 Speaker 1: users couldn't just switch to another app store that had 2044 01:50:59,360 --> 01:51:02,320 Speaker 1: working vp ends in it. And so you know that 2045 01:51:02,600 --> 01:51:06,000 Speaker 1: this um endgame of the copyright wars is I think 2046 01:51:06,000 --> 01:51:11,720 Speaker 1: a lot more dystopian than uh merely suing college kids. Uh, 2047 01:51:12,120 --> 01:51:15,439 Speaker 1: it's it's actually really screwed us in ways that are 2048 01:51:15,680 --> 01:51:20,040 Speaker 1: that are hard to fathom. Yeah, it's a fascinating example 2049 01:51:20,120 --> 01:51:23,000 Speaker 1: of kind of dystopic creep because, at least kind of 2050 01:51:23,080 --> 01:51:26,200 Speaker 1: from my more more ignorant position, when I was nineteen, 2051 01:51:26,280 --> 01:51:28,120 Speaker 1: I was like worried that all of these these people 2052 01:51:28,200 --> 01:51:30,960 Speaker 1: remixing music and movies that I liked, like we're going 2053 01:51:31,000 --> 01:51:33,280 Speaker 1: to get cracked down on or have their stuff pulled 2054 01:51:34,040 --> 01:51:37,479 Speaker 1: um And the the kind of thing that I didn't 2055 01:51:37,520 --> 01:51:39,920 Speaker 1: I don't think a lot of people saw coming until 2056 01:51:39,960 --> 01:51:41,960 Speaker 1: it hit. I certainly didn't, was what you were just 2057 01:51:42,040 --> 01:51:44,360 Speaker 1: talking about the fact that kind of the logic of 2058 01:51:44,479 --> 01:51:47,920 Speaker 1: how these these entertainment companies were looking at like an 2059 01:51:47,960 --> 01:51:50,360 Speaker 1: album or you know, a movie and and cutting up 2060 01:51:50,400 --> 01:51:53,160 Speaker 1: pieces of that they've they've applied to like a tractor, 2061 01:51:53,520 --> 01:51:55,599 Speaker 1: you know, and now you can't like repair your John 2062 01:51:55,640 --> 01:51:58,040 Speaker 1: Deer or modify your John Deer so it works better. 2063 01:51:58,600 --> 01:52:01,439 Speaker 1: And then you know, you get situations like we just 2064 01:52:01,560 --> 01:52:04,160 Speaker 1: kind of averted with the John Deere strike where there 2065 01:52:04,280 --> 01:52:06,360 Speaker 1: was a very real possibility that we wouldn't be able 2066 01:52:06,360 --> 01:52:08,040 Speaker 1: to get a large chunk of a harvest because there 2067 01:52:08,040 --> 01:52:09,680 Speaker 1: wouldn't be parts and you can't put your own in. 2068 01:52:09,800 --> 01:52:12,479 Speaker 1: And that's to think that that the thought process that 2069 01:52:12,600 --> 01:52:16,120 Speaker 1: led us there started with like trying to protect Metallica. 2070 01:52:16,800 --> 01:52:19,400 Speaker 1: In some ways, it's kind of funny. And this is 2071 01:52:19,439 --> 01:52:22,960 Speaker 1: why the anti monopoly critique is great because it shows 2072 01:52:23,000 --> 01:52:26,000 Speaker 1: you that there's cause for solidarity between John Deere tractor 2073 01:52:26,040 --> 01:52:30,240 Speaker 1: owners and John Deere tractor UH makers the workers who 2074 01:52:30,280 --> 01:52:33,760 Speaker 1: work there, because the same force that has allowed John 2075 01:52:33,840 --> 01:52:38,040 Speaker 1: Deere to cram down its workforce for forty years is 2076 01:52:38,160 --> 01:52:41,559 Speaker 1: the is the force that allows it to um uh 2077 01:52:41,920 --> 01:52:45,960 Speaker 1: take away the agency and economic liberties of farmers who 2078 01:52:46,080 --> 01:52:49,280 Speaker 1: own John Deer tractors. And it's it's the it's the 2079 01:52:49,320 --> 01:52:52,280 Speaker 1: political power that comes with monopoly. And so you know, 2080 01:52:52,360 --> 01:52:55,679 Speaker 1: if John Deer were a smaller, weaker firm, it would 2081 01:52:55,720 --> 01:52:59,479 Speaker 1: be less able to resist both the claims of its 2082 01:52:59,520 --> 01:53:03,800 Speaker 1: work force and the claims of its um uh customers. 2083 01:53:04,720 --> 01:53:07,600 Speaker 1: Mhm yeah, I mean that makes that makes sense, and 2084 01:53:07,720 --> 01:53:10,400 Speaker 1: it is like I like that idea of of because 2085 01:53:10,520 --> 01:53:13,680 Speaker 1: it's not just kind of solidarity between John Deere purchasers, 2086 01:53:14,040 --> 01:53:16,799 Speaker 1: UM and and the people who work in the factories. 2087 01:53:16,880 --> 01:53:20,479 Speaker 1: It's also there's kind of solidarity between a wide like 2088 01:53:21,120 --> 01:53:26,519 Speaker 1: anyone concerned with UM copyright. It's a much broader base 2089 01:53:26,600 --> 01:53:28,960 Speaker 1: of solidarity than just people who are worried about you know, 2090 01:53:29,080 --> 01:53:32,200 Speaker 1: what's happening uh to fiction or like what Disney is 2091 01:53:32,240 --> 01:53:35,080 Speaker 1: doing to like copyrights around Mickey Mouse or whatever. Like 2092 01:53:35,200 --> 01:53:38,680 Speaker 1: it's it. You can you can draw in concerns from 2093 01:53:38,800 --> 01:53:40,559 Speaker 1: right to repair to a bunch of other things, which 2094 01:53:40,600 --> 01:53:45,280 Speaker 1: potentially means there's there's a greater body of people available 2095 01:53:45,320 --> 01:53:47,439 Speaker 1: for action if you can make them see kind of 2096 01:53:48,240 --> 01:53:50,920 Speaker 1: um converging interests there, which is I think is an 2097 01:53:50,960 --> 01:53:53,759 Speaker 1: interesting idea. Well, I think you're getting something really important 2098 01:53:53,840 --> 01:53:56,519 Speaker 1: and this is UM. This comes from James Boyle who's 2099 01:53:56,520 --> 01:53:59,360 Speaker 1: a copyright scholar at Duke University and was really involved 2100 01:53:59,439 --> 01:54:02,559 Speaker 1: and found in creative commons and in those early copyright 2101 01:54:02,640 --> 01:54:06,240 Speaker 1: fights and and Jamie makes an analogy to the coining 2102 01:54:06,280 --> 01:54:09,160 Speaker 1: of the term ecology. He says that before the term 2103 01:54:09,200 --> 01:54:12,040 Speaker 1: ecology came along, you know, someone us cared about owls 2104 01:54:12,080 --> 01:54:14,280 Speaker 1: and someone us cared about the ozone layer, but it 2105 01:54:14,320 --> 01:54:16,960 Speaker 1: wasn't really clear that we were on the same side. 2106 01:54:17,240 --> 01:54:19,360 Speaker 1: You know, it's not clear. If you're Martian looking through 2107 01:54:19,400 --> 01:54:21,840 Speaker 1: a telescope, you might be hard pressed to explain why. 2108 01:54:22,320 --> 01:54:26,160 Speaker 1: You know, the destiny of charismatic charismatic nocturnal birds and 2109 01:54:26,240 --> 01:54:29,519 Speaker 1: the gaseous composition of the upper atmosphere were the same issue, 2110 01:54:30,080 --> 01:54:32,920 Speaker 1: right in the term ecology. Let all these people who 2111 01:54:32,960 --> 01:54:36,600 Speaker 1: cared about different things find a single point to rally around. 2112 01:54:36,680 --> 01:54:39,880 Speaker 1: It turned a thousand issues into one movement. And I 2113 01:54:40,000 --> 01:54:42,600 Speaker 1: think that in the in the course of resisting corporate power, 2114 01:54:42,680 --> 01:54:45,720 Speaker 1: which is to say, resisting monopoly, we have the potential 2115 01:54:45,840 --> 01:54:49,480 Speaker 1: to weld together people from very diverse fields. You know, 2116 01:54:49,640 --> 01:54:52,360 Speaker 1: farmers and people who make tractors. Sure, but you know 2117 01:54:52,800 --> 01:54:56,360 Speaker 1: if you grew up watching professional wrestling and now you're 2118 01:54:56,440 --> 01:54:59,520 Speaker 1: a ghas that the wrestlers that you loved are begging 2119 01:54:59,600 --> 01:55:02,280 Speaker 1: on go fund me for pennies to die with dignity, 2120 01:55:02,960 --> 01:55:05,200 Speaker 1: you know, once someone explains to the reason that that's 2121 01:55:05,200 --> 01:55:08,600 Speaker 1: happening is that thirty wrestling leagues became one wrestling league 2122 01:55:08,840 --> 01:55:12,440 Speaker 1: that was able to practice worker's classification, turn those performers 2123 01:55:12,520 --> 01:55:15,240 Speaker 1: into contractors, take away their health insurance, and leave them 2124 01:55:15,320 --> 01:55:17,720 Speaker 1: to die. Then Suddenly you're on the same side of 2125 01:55:17,760 --> 01:55:19,640 Speaker 1: the people who were worried about big Tech and big 2126 01:55:19,720 --> 01:55:22,280 Speaker 1: tractor and the people worried about the fact that there's 2127 01:55:22,320 --> 01:55:26,800 Speaker 1: only one manufacturer of cheerleading uniform uniforms and two manufacturers 2128 01:55:26,840 --> 01:55:30,120 Speaker 1: of athletic shoes, and two manufacturers of spirits and two 2129 01:55:30,160 --> 01:55:34,120 Speaker 1: manufacturers of beer. One manufacturer of eyewear that also owns 2130 01:55:34,280 --> 01:55:37,720 Speaker 1: all the eye wear stores and the eyewear ensure. You 2131 01:55:37,800 --> 01:55:40,160 Speaker 1: know that Duff Beer thing from the early Simpsons where 2132 01:55:40,200 --> 01:55:48,920 Speaker 1: there's like Duff Beer raspberry thing, Dulci, Gabana, Oliver, People's Boushan, Loam, Versaci. 2133 01:55:49,080 --> 01:55:52,120 Speaker 1: Every eyewear brand you've ever heard of is one company 2134 01:55:52,440 --> 01:55:57,000 Speaker 1: coach all of them. And they also own Sunglass Hut 2135 01:55:57,200 --> 01:56:02,280 Speaker 1: and uh Target Optical and Years Optical, and lens Crafters 2136 01:56:02,480 --> 01:56:05,680 Speaker 1: and Specsavers and every other eyewear story you've ever heard of. 2137 01:56:06,080 --> 01:56:08,880 Speaker 1: And they bought all the labs that make the lenses, 2138 01:56:08,960 --> 01:56:10,680 Speaker 1: so more than half the lenses in the world come 2139 01:56:10,760 --> 01:56:14,920 Speaker 1: from them. A division called and they bought Imed, which 2140 01:56:15,040 --> 01:56:17,360 Speaker 1: is the company that bought all the insurance companies that 2141 01:56:17,520 --> 01:56:20,320 Speaker 1: ensure I wear, and so they're also the company that's 2142 01:56:20,440 --> 01:56:24,680 Speaker 1: ensuring your glasses, your your eyes. One company and I 2143 01:56:24,800 --> 01:56:27,000 Speaker 1: Wear costs a thousand percent more than it did a 2144 01:56:27,080 --> 01:56:30,800 Speaker 1: decade ago. They stole our fucking eyes. Right, So people 2145 01:56:30,880 --> 01:56:33,680 Speaker 1: who care about that have common cause with people who 2146 01:56:33,720 --> 01:56:36,440 Speaker 1: care about wrestlers and people who care about beer and 2147 01:56:36,640 --> 01:56:39,959 Speaker 1: big tech and the fact that there's four shipping companies 2148 01:56:40,320 --> 01:56:42,520 Speaker 1: and they have no competitive pressure and so they just 2149 01:56:42,600 --> 01:56:44,760 Speaker 1: keep building bigger ships that gets stuck in the fucking 2150 01:56:44,840 --> 01:56:49,560 Speaker 1: Suez canal Right, we're all on the same side. Yeah, 2151 01:56:49,760 --> 01:56:53,400 Speaker 1: And I I like the idea that I like. I 2152 01:56:53,720 --> 01:56:57,560 Speaker 1: like hoping that that kind of inherent solidarity, if you 2153 01:56:57,600 --> 01:57:01,080 Speaker 1: can point it out to people, is potentially an antidote to, 2154 01:57:01,320 --> 01:57:03,040 Speaker 1: or at least a partial antidote to the level of 2155 01:57:03,160 --> 01:57:06,600 Speaker 1: the layer of politicization that's fallen down over everything um 2156 01:57:06,760 --> 01:57:09,919 Speaker 1: that stops people from actually considering matters but instead considering 2157 01:57:10,000 --> 01:57:11,760 Speaker 1: Like I don't know, is this owning the libs? Right? 2158 01:57:12,200 --> 01:57:14,240 Speaker 1: Like if you if they if if you can get 2159 01:57:14,320 --> 01:57:16,680 Speaker 1: them to see that, like, yeah, their favorite wrestler is 2160 01:57:17,240 --> 01:57:20,360 Speaker 1: like dying because he couldn't afford insulin, and that that 2161 01:57:20,560 --> 01:57:23,000 Speaker 1: that's tied to the issue of like the reason his 2162 01:57:23,120 --> 01:57:25,760 Speaker 1: dad can't get tractor parts this year or whatever, um 2163 01:57:25,920 --> 01:57:28,280 Speaker 1: and that that's tied to other issues that are maybe 2164 01:57:28,440 --> 01:57:32,400 Speaker 1: championed by people he would reflexively dismiss. But like, yeah, 2165 01:57:32,400 --> 01:57:35,480 Speaker 1: I I I find that really inspiring. It's still a 2166 01:57:35,520 --> 01:57:40,600 Speaker 1: significant there's a significant challenge for people who are trying 2167 01:57:40,640 --> 01:57:43,120 Speaker 1: to make those connections, for folks who are who are 2168 01:57:43,200 --> 01:57:46,960 Speaker 1: trying to like inform them of that state. I mean, yeah, 2169 01:57:47,000 --> 01:57:49,840 Speaker 1: that's true. And you know, like Steve Bannon will tell 2170 01:57:49,880 --> 01:57:52,720 Speaker 1: you that the reason to do cultural world culture culture 2171 01:57:52,800 --> 01:57:56,600 Speaker 1: war bullshit is because politics are down downstream from culture, 2172 01:57:56,640 --> 01:57:58,720 Speaker 1: and there's probably an element of truth to that. But 2173 01:57:58,800 --> 01:58:00,760 Speaker 1: I also think the reason that he full fine culture 2174 01:58:00,800 --> 01:58:05,000 Speaker 1: war bullshits so attractive is because they got nothing else. Yeah, 2175 01:58:05,760 --> 01:58:07,800 Speaker 1: I think we we talked about that a lot within 2176 01:58:07,840 --> 01:58:11,360 Speaker 1: the context of conservative for politics. I grew up very conservative, 2177 01:58:11,400 --> 01:58:14,000 Speaker 1: and I do remember how the tenor of things I 2178 01:58:14,160 --> 01:58:17,560 Speaker 1: was hearing through the Bush ears changed from advocation of 2179 01:58:17,680 --> 01:58:21,240 Speaker 1: policies to just all culture war, all the time, all 2180 01:58:21,600 --> 01:58:23,760 Speaker 1: all striking the dims all the time. And it was 2181 01:58:23,840 --> 01:58:27,640 Speaker 1: the kind of um it and that's not the only 2182 01:58:27,720 --> 01:58:29,440 Speaker 1: place that's happen you see it on the left to 2183 01:58:29,680 --> 01:58:33,000 Speaker 1: absolutely like it's it's endemic. Now it's it's a poison 2184 01:58:33,120 --> 01:58:36,480 Speaker 1: in kind of the discourse. But I think that there's 2185 01:58:36,680 --> 01:58:38,760 Speaker 1: a lot that needs to be I think there's a 2186 01:58:38,800 --> 01:58:41,240 Speaker 1: lot to be discovered still for like how to break 2187 01:58:41,480 --> 01:58:44,800 Speaker 1: people out of that. I'm kind of bullish when we 2188 01:58:44,840 --> 01:58:46,640 Speaker 1: talk about these issues, like you were bringing up with 2189 01:58:46,720 --> 01:58:49,240 Speaker 1: sort of the monopolization of these industries you wouldn't expect 2190 01:58:49,240 --> 01:58:53,320 Speaker 1: to be monopolized. I'm hopeful about the future that stuff 2191 01:58:53,360 --> 01:58:55,440 Speaker 1: like three D printing presents for that. We have an 2192 01:58:55,520 --> 01:58:58,920 Speaker 1: organization in Portland that does kind of three D printing 2193 01:58:58,960 --> 01:59:01,720 Speaker 1: glasses frame since stuff and is helping people with that 2194 01:59:01,880 --> 01:59:04,800 Speaker 1: sort of stuff. And I'm in conversations with like the 2195 01:59:06,000 --> 01:59:10,840 Speaker 1: Four Thieves Vinegar Collective. I think it's called UM. Yeah, 2196 01:59:10,880 --> 01:59:12,760 Speaker 1: some of the folks doing like trying to do working 2197 01:59:12,800 --> 01:59:16,800 Speaker 1: on pharmaceutical hacking making at the moment like lower cost 2198 01:59:17,240 --> 01:59:21,040 Speaker 1: uh kind of home scratch brewed versions of like different 2199 01:59:21,040 --> 01:59:24,320 Speaker 1: aids medications, and the Holy Grail is doing that with 2200 01:59:24,520 --> 01:59:29,120 Speaker 1: um insulin effectively UM and I think it is. And 2201 01:59:29,240 --> 01:59:31,640 Speaker 1: I do think one of the things that's exciting about 2202 01:59:31,720 --> 01:59:33,760 Speaker 1: that is because the way in which the way in 2203 01:59:33,800 --> 01:59:36,320 Speaker 1: which collaboration on three D printing works in the way 2204 01:59:36,360 --> 01:59:39,040 Speaker 1: in which actually spreading, like the ability to do stuff works. 2205 01:59:39,400 --> 01:59:43,880 Speaker 1: I think it synergizes nicely with the ability of people 2206 01:59:43,920 --> 01:59:46,200 Speaker 1: to kind of reach other folks through writing or other 2207 01:59:46,280 --> 01:59:48,280 Speaker 1: forms of content, because they can both spread through the 2208 01:59:48,320 --> 01:59:50,400 Speaker 1: same You can have a video or a story, and 2209 01:59:50,520 --> 01:59:53,200 Speaker 1: you can have like kind of embedded guides on how 2210 01:59:53,240 --> 01:59:56,360 Speaker 1: to do that. Um I I I don't know that 2211 01:59:56,400 --> 01:59:59,080 Speaker 1: I've I've runned into a lot of your writings on 2212 01:59:59,360 --> 02:00:01,080 Speaker 1: kind of the potent chell of three D printing in 2213 02:00:01,120 --> 02:00:04,080 Speaker 1: this space, But I'm interested, like to what do you do? 2214 02:00:04,680 --> 02:00:06,760 Speaker 1: Are you looking at that as kind of an area 2215 02:00:06,840 --> 02:00:09,320 Speaker 1: of hope or do you see that still is kind 2216 02:00:09,360 --> 02:00:12,280 Speaker 1: of to two niche and labor focus to really actually 2217 02:00:12,400 --> 02:00:13,800 Speaker 1: take off in the way that it would need to 2218 02:00:14,240 --> 02:00:16,800 Speaker 1: to crack some of these nuts. This is where I 2219 02:00:16,880 --> 02:00:19,720 Speaker 1: do my my Woody Allen, you know nothing of my 2220 02:00:19,880 --> 02:00:23,320 Speaker 1: work stick because I had this novel Maker Makers in 2221 02:00:23,360 --> 02:00:29,480 Speaker 1: two thousand and eight. It's it's why uh Bree Pettis 2222 02:00:29,520 --> 02:00:32,800 Speaker 1: went out and founded Maker bought uh and it's you know, 2223 02:00:33,040 --> 02:00:37,280 Speaker 1: credited with like kickstarting the homebrew three D printed revolution 2224 02:00:37,320 --> 02:00:40,120 Speaker 1: blah blah blah blah blah and um and it was 2225 02:00:40,200 --> 02:00:43,200 Speaker 1: a very bullish novel about three D printing. I UM, 2226 02:00:43,680 --> 02:00:46,080 Speaker 1: you know, the reality hasn't lived up to the hype yet. 2227 02:00:46,360 --> 02:00:48,040 Speaker 1: It may just be that we're in the long trough 2228 02:00:48,160 --> 02:00:51,880 Speaker 1: of despair, as the Gardner hype cycle model has it. Uh. 2229 02:00:52,160 --> 02:00:55,120 Speaker 1: But you know, I think the problem with UM three 2230 02:00:55,200 --> 02:00:59,240 Speaker 1: D printing was that the patents have been concentrated into 2231 02:00:59,240 --> 02:01:02,120 Speaker 1: the hands of two arch firms that had bought all 2232 02:01:02,120 --> 02:01:06,480 Speaker 1: their competitors, including Maker Bought and UM. When those patents 2233 02:01:06,560 --> 02:01:09,640 Speaker 1: finally expired. The big one was the laser centering of 2234 02:01:09,880 --> 02:01:13,200 Speaker 1: of powder. Patent expired, there just wasn't a big bang. 2235 02:01:13,400 --> 02:01:15,760 Speaker 1: And I think it's because the supply chain for it 2236 02:01:16,440 --> 02:01:20,280 Speaker 1: still had a lot of proprietary elements, and so producing 2237 02:01:20,400 --> 02:01:24,600 Speaker 1: the powder and producing the components that allowed for that 2238 02:01:25,120 --> 02:01:29,360 Speaker 1: powder printing remained a very high bar, and so we 2239 02:01:29,520 --> 02:01:32,000 Speaker 1: just didn't see the kind of new industry emerged that 2240 02:01:32,120 --> 02:01:34,200 Speaker 1: we would have hoped for. And you know, it's like 2241 02:01:34,320 --> 02:01:37,200 Speaker 1: seven years since those patents expired. Five years since those 2242 02:01:37,240 --> 02:01:39,880 Speaker 1: patent expired. Now we're seeing a few more of those 2243 02:01:39,920 --> 02:01:42,680 Speaker 1: powder printers. You get a lot more like UVY cured 2244 02:01:42,720 --> 02:01:46,640 Speaker 1: epoxy printers because those came off patent earlier, and they 2245 02:01:46,680 --> 02:01:50,400 Speaker 1: have a less complicated supply chain. Um, but still, I 2246 02:01:50,440 --> 02:01:53,839 Speaker 1: mean mostly when we talked about printers, we're talking about filament, 2247 02:01:54,360 --> 02:01:58,040 Speaker 1: and just filaments just not a great technology. It's been 2248 02:01:58,160 --> 02:02:01,360 Speaker 1: pushed in ways that you wouldn't even leave and people 2249 02:02:01,400 --> 02:02:04,920 Speaker 1: have figured out how to do absolutely incredible things with it. 2250 02:02:05,480 --> 02:02:09,320 Speaker 1: But it's not It's not something that you would make 2251 02:02:09,360 --> 02:02:12,880 Speaker 1: aerospace components for, you know, it's it's it's something that 2252 02:02:12,960 --> 02:02:16,880 Speaker 1: you make um novelty dungeons and dragons, dice out of 2253 02:02:17,880 --> 02:02:20,320 Speaker 1: which is an important industry to disrupt. Don't get me wrong, 2254 02:02:20,480 --> 02:02:23,360 Speaker 1: but I'm with you, with you. I can remember paying 2255 02:02:23,440 --> 02:02:25,160 Speaker 1: thirty bucks for a set of dice as a kid 2256 02:02:25,240 --> 02:02:29,120 Speaker 1: and thinking, somebody's gotta fix this scam. I can put 2257 02:02:29,160 --> 02:02:31,640 Speaker 1: you something for Christmas, Robert, thank you, Garrison. And you 2258 02:02:31,680 --> 02:02:34,000 Speaker 1: know now I I own a I bought a comic 2259 02:02:34,080 --> 02:02:35,800 Speaker 1: on a couple of years ago. I bought a tiny 2260 02:02:35,880 --> 02:02:39,240 Speaker 1: little D twenty made out of meteoric or I have 2261 02:02:39,280 --> 02:02:42,440 Speaker 1: a sky metal D twenty. Oh now that's yeah, that's 2262 02:02:42,640 --> 02:02:46,240 Speaker 1: that's classy. Um. I'm curious. We've got a little bit 2263 02:02:46,280 --> 02:02:48,080 Speaker 1: of time left and I wanted to ask in your 2264 02:02:48,160 --> 02:02:51,839 Speaker 1: your novel attack surface. I know it was released right October, 2265 02:02:51,960 --> 02:02:55,960 Speaker 1: if I'm not mistaken. UM. And obviously a lot of 2266 02:02:56,040 --> 02:03:00,160 Speaker 1: that deals with again these kind of like corporations that 2267 02:03:00,200 --> 02:03:02,160 Speaker 1: have been contractors for the D O D doing like 2268 02:03:02,400 --> 02:03:06,280 Speaker 1: fucked up surveillance shit in Iraq and Afghanistan bringing that 2269 02:03:06,400 --> 02:03:09,400 Speaker 1: technology to crack down on like US, uh, sort of 2270 02:03:09,480 --> 02:03:12,880 Speaker 1: dissident left wing political movements. It comes out the year 2271 02:03:12,960 --> 02:03:17,240 Speaker 1: that we have a nationwide kind of uprising, UM that 2272 02:03:17,520 --> 02:03:19,920 Speaker 1: a lot of fucked up surveillance ship that had been 2273 02:03:20,040 --> 02:03:22,720 Speaker 1: kind of demoed state side around it like standing Rock 2274 02:03:22,800 --> 02:03:25,600 Speaker 1: and whatnot, gets gets really put into its own How 2275 02:03:25,760 --> 02:03:30,120 Speaker 1: much of that was written before ship went down? And 2276 02:03:30,240 --> 02:03:32,880 Speaker 1: I and I'm assuming, like I don't know exactly how 2277 02:03:32,920 --> 02:03:35,240 Speaker 1: your process works, but I'm wondering, like, I assume you 2278 02:03:35,320 --> 02:03:38,200 Speaker 1: started the project before everything went the way it did 2279 02:03:38,320 --> 02:03:41,160 Speaker 1: last summer. How much did kind of what happened last 2280 02:03:41,200 --> 02:03:45,680 Speaker 1: summer affect the way you imagined that technology in those 2281 02:03:45,720 --> 02:03:49,080 Speaker 1: tactics functioning in that book. Yeah, the the timeline goes 2282 02:03:49,120 --> 02:03:55,040 Speaker 1: the other direction. I wrote that book before the summer uprising, UM, 2283 02:03:55,240 --> 02:03:58,120 Speaker 1: long long, long long before that, And I wrote it 2284 02:03:58,160 --> 02:04:01,480 Speaker 1: about things like UM, the surveillance technology we saw in 2285 02:04:01,520 --> 02:04:05,960 Speaker 1: Belarus and chev and also at Occupy and Standing Rock 2286 02:04:07,280 --> 02:04:12,800 Speaker 1: and at other Black Lives Matter demonstrations and uprisings in Americans. Yeah, 2287 02:04:13,320 --> 02:04:18,640 Speaker 1: and if you you know also the monotonic expansion of 2288 02:04:18,800 --> 02:04:22,000 Speaker 1: surveillance leagues right where you know, first we learned about 2289 02:04:22,120 --> 02:04:25,200 Speaker 1: MC catchers, and then we learned about dirt boxes, which 2290 02:04:25,200 --> 02:04:28,040 Speaker 1: are MC catchers on airplanes, and you know, like we 2291 02:04:28,200 --> 02:04:31,080 Speaker 1: just all of that stuff leaked like crazy because you know, 2292 02:04:31,520 --> 02:04:36,800 Speaker 1: these surveillance giants are are not good at what they do, right, 2293 02:04:37,000 --> 02:04:40,240 Speaker 1: which isn't a reason we should be hopeful. A company 2294 02:04:40,320 --> 02:04:43,680 Speaker 1: that's bad at what it does is in some ways 2295 02:04:43,720 --> 02:04:46,760 Speaker 1: even worse because one of the ways that they're incompetence 2296 02:04:46,800 --> 02:04:49,760 Speaker 1: expresses itself is that they often gather a bunch of 2297 02:04:49,880 --> 02:04:54,400 Speaker 1: data on innocent people and then leak it, right, not maliciously, 2298 02:04:54,600 --> 02:04:58,840 Speaker 1: just through incompetence. Um. And so you know, the the 2299 02:05:00,040 --> 02:05:02,560 Speaker 1: this expansion of surveillance has like been on my mind 2300 02:05:02,760 --> 02:05:04,880 Speaker 1: for a long time, and I've been writing about it, 2301 02:05:05,240 --> 02:05:07,480 Speaker 1: well at least since Little Brother, Right, So two thousand 2302 02:05:07,520 --> 02:05:10,080 Speaker 1: and six, I wrote that novel, and I've had my 2303 02:05:10,200 --> 02:05:12,640 Speaker 1: finger in that. Yeah, So I've had my finger in 2304 02:05:12,680 --> 02:05:15,720 Speaker 1: that for all that time and and working with the 2305 02:05:15,880 --> 02:05:19,520 Speaker 1: f F, it's impossible to miss sure. Was there a 2306 02:05:19,560 --> 02:05:22,280 Speaker 1: degree to which, um, I don't know, I guess we're 2307 02:05:22,320 --> 02:05:24,400 Speaker 1: you surprised by anything that happened last time? Or did 2308 02:05:24,440 --> 02:05:27,880 Speaker 1: it just kind of comprehensively feel like these are everything 2309 02:05:27,960 --> 02:05:30,320 Speaker 1: slotting into place that I knew was heading in this direction? 2310 02:05:30,320 --> 02:05:32,760 Speaker 1: Because yeah, I mean, you're right, I did like there 2311 02:05:32,880 --> 02:05:37,600 Speaker 1: was like everything was kind of presaged um years before. 2312 02:05:37,760 --> 02:05:41,040 Speaker 1: I'm yeah, I I'm wondering if if there was anything 2313 02:05:41,120 --> 02:05:43,840 Speaker 1: that kind of surprised you, um, or was it was 2314 02:05:43,920 --> 02:05:47,280 Speaker 1: it all just sort of what you've been braced for. Yeah, 2315 02:05:47,320 --> 02:05:50,600 Speaker 1: I don't feel like there were any kind of surveillance surprises. 2316 02:05:51,000 --> 02:05:55,840 Speaker 1: I mean the reverse the use of reverse warrants. I 2317 02:05:55,920 --> 02:05:59,040 Speaker 1: think we all kind of assumed was going on. There 2318 02:05:59,080 --> 02:06:02,160 Speaker 1: had been hints of it in Google's warrant canarias beforehand. 2319 02:06:02,680 --> 02:06:06,000 Speaker 1: But you know those geofense warrants, which again, if you're 2320 02:06:06,040 --> 02:06:08,400 Speaker 1: like sitting there going oh, geofense warrants are awesome because 2321 02:06:08,440 --> 02:06:11,880 Speaker 1: they're catching the one six rioters, Like, dude, you are 2322 02:06:11,920 --> 02:06:15,920 Speaker 1: going to be so disappointed, Holy sh it, that's not 2323 02:06:16,000 --> 02:06:19,680 Speaker 1: where they're going to keep using this yeah. UM, so, 2324 02:06:19,880 --> 02:06:22,320 Speaker 1: you know, learning more about those reverse warrants I think 2325 02:06:22,480 --> 02:06:26,120 Speaker 1: was was interesting. UM, but I don't feel like, I 2326 02:06:26,280 --> 02:06:28,000 Speaker 1: don't well off the top of my head, I can't 2327 02:06:28,040 --> 02:06:31,080 Speaker 1: say that there was any new technical stuff that emerged, 2328 02:06:31,120 --> 02:06:34,480 Speaker 1: you know. I I um kickstarted the audiobook for Attack 2329 02:06:34,600 --> 02:06:38,480 Speaker 1: Surface uh, and I offered as like the top tier 2330 02:06:38,560 --> 02:06:41,400 Speaker 1: you could commission short stories in the Little Brother universe, 2331 02:06:42,000 --> 02:06:43,920 Speaker 1: and there were three of those and I just finished 2332 02:06:43,960 --> 02:06:46,919 Speaker 1: the first of them, and it's about um future pipeline 2333 02:06:46,960 --> 02:06:50,960 Speaker 1: protests and uh. You know, I spent a lot of 2334 02:06:51,040 --> 02:06:54,320 Speaker 1: time in my research looking at the surveillance that was 2335 02:06:54,400 --> 02:06:56,760 Speaker 1: done on the pipeline protests, and a lot of it 2336 02:06:56,840 --> 02:07:01,360 Speaker 1: was provocateurs and undercovers who were just terrible at jobs, right, 2337 02:07:01,440 --> 02:07:05,600 Speaker 1: like the intercepts, long publication of of uh, you know, 2338 02:07:05,720 --> 02:07:08,800 Speaker 1: long documents about how those operators worked. They just like 2339 02:07:08,920 --> 02:07:12,200 Speaker 1: showed up in military haircuts and combat boots. And then 2340 02:07:12,240 --> 02:07:14,880 Speaker 1: we're like, Hey, I'm from Portland and I'm here because 2341 02:07:14,920 --> 02:07:17,560 Speaker 1: we're gonna funk up some bad guys. Let's go do it. 2342 02:07:17,720 --> 02:07:20,960 Speaker 1: Let's go do violence and save Indian country. And like 2343 02:07:21,080 --> 02:07:23,919 Speaker 1: everyone's like you, like, does anyone want to buy drugs? 2344 02:07:24,360 --> 02:07:29,400 Speaker 1: And and the actual protesters were like you're a provocateur, 2345 02:07:30,040 --> 02:07:32,760 Speaker 1: like go away, you know, like they could tell. I mean, 2346 02:07:32,880 --> 02:07:34,680 Speaker 1: I guess you know, there are a lot more effective 2347 02:07:34,680 --> 02:07:37,280 Speaker 1: in the UK in infiltrating the climate movement. You know, 2348 02:07:37,360 --> 02:07:41,680 Speaker 1: they impregnated several protesters, so you know, and had long 2349 02:07:41,840 --> 02:07:44,400 Speaker 1: term relationships with them and raised kids with them. So 2350 02:07:45,040 --> 02:07:48,240 Speaker 1: there is no but here stories yeah here, it was 2351 02:07:48,360 --> 02:07:52,720 Speaker 1: not that we did just didn't see that incredible efficacy. Yeah, 2352 02:07:52,800 --> 02:07:55,520 Speaker 1: And I do think that that's I think kind of 2353 02:07:55,600 --> 02:07:57,400 Speaker 1: the message I took out of it because I I 2354 02:07:57,600 --> 02:08:00,280 Speaker 1: was I started reporting on like dirt boxes back during 2355 02:08:00,360 --> 02:08:02,920 Speaker 1: Standing Rock, just having them, like it explained to me 2356 02:08:03,000 --> 02:08:04,920 Speaker 1: by people who were on the ground when I showed 2357 02:08:05,000 --> 02:08:07,920 Speaker 1: up that like, yeah, there's this your like phones don't 2358 02:08:07,960 --> 02:08:09,640 Speaker 1: work the same out here, and like we're trying to 2359 02:08:09,680 --> 02:08:11,760 Speaker 1: figure out what's going on, but like everything is is 2360 02:08:11,920 --> 02:08:13,640 Speaker 1: and it's not just that we're out in the sticks 2361 02:08:13,760 --> 02:08:16,560 Speaker 1: or anything. And I think the only surprise, the big 2362 02:08:16,600 --> 02:08:19,240 Speaker 1: surprise for me last year was how I think how 2363 02:08:19,440 --> 02:08:23,760 Speaker 1: little the technology accomplished for them and how much it 2364 02:08:23,880 --> 02:08:25,840 Speaker 1: just it just wound up back down to violence. It 2365 02:08:25,920 --> 02:08:28,080 Speaker 1: was like that was kind of the for all of 2366 02:08:28,200 --> 02:08:30,440 Speaker 1: the toys they had. The toys that actually made the 2367 02:08:30,480 --> 02:08:33,440 Speaker 1: most difference was gassing and beating people and violence and 2368 02:08:33,600 --> 02:08:37,240 Speaker 1: like old fashioned informants that was that was the stuff, 2369 02:08:37,520 --> 02:08:40,480 Speaker 1: and just having a dude there. Yeah, they were really 2370 02:08:40,560 --> 02:08:43,040 Speaker 1: relied on. And the fact that you that that you, Corey, 2371 02:08:43,320 --> 02:08:46,040 Speaker 1: weren't super surprised, but anything last year, I think kind 2372 02:08:46,080 --> 02:08:48,760 Speaker 1: of just more shows kind of the strength of your 2373 02:08:48,840 --> 02:08:51,440 Speaker 1: work in terms of how you're very good at seeing 2374 02:08:51,560 --> 02:08:54,800 Speaker 1: the trends that are already happening but taking them to 2375 02:08:54,880 --> 02:08:58,440 Speaker 1: their next logical place. Um. And it's a really great 2376 02:08:59,000 --> 02:09:01,680 Speaker 1: way to kind of get a sense of what is something, 2377 02:09:02,560 --> 02:09:05,160 Speaker 1: what what will something maybe look like in the next 2378 02:09:05,640 --> 02:09:07,680 Speaker 1: decade or so, because it's it's all based on already 2379 02:09:07,680 --> 02:09:10,880 Speaker 1: existing stuff, just in different kind of original ways. So 2380 02:09:10,920 --> 02:09:13,120 Speaker 1: that's why I think it's it's so useful to look 2381 02:09:13,160 --> 02:09:16,760 Speaker 1: at your books as as an activist, specifically around like 2382 02:09:17,240 --> 02:09:20,760 Speaker 1: surveillance and stuff, because it's it's just really it's it's 2383 02:09:20,800 --> 02:09:23,440 Speaker 1: really good for kind of keeping keeping an eye on 2384 02:09:24,160 --> 02:09:26,960 Speaker 1: keep my head, yeah, and and keeping an eye on 2385 02:09:27,040 --> 02:09:29,320 Speaker 1: what's keeping an eye on you, um, and all that 2386 02:09:29,400 --> 02:09:32,160 Speaker 1: kind of stuff. This was a really lovely conversation was 2387 02:09:32,200 --> 02:09:35,040 Speaker 1: a lovely last thing to do in my home office 2388 02:09:35,120 --> 02:09:38,640 Speaker 1: in because I leave tomorrow and won't be back until 2389 02:09:38,680 --> 02:09:41,200 Speaker 1: the next year, and then I'm actually gonna be offline 2390 02:09:41,240 --> 02:09:43,880 Speaker 1: for a month after a joint replacement. So it was 2391 02:09:44,200 --> 02:09:45,800 Speaker 1: it was really lovely to meet you all on to 2392 02:09:45,920 --> 02:09:48,200 Speaker 1: chat with you. Thanks so much for chatting with us today. 2393 02:09:48,200 --> 02:10:04,760 Speaker 1: Glory my pleasure. You know what, I think it's time 2394 02:10:04,840 --> 02:10:08,800 Speaker 1: to do a podcast. All right, I did it, Sophie. 2395 02:10:11,800 --> 02:10:14,640 Speaker 1: This is it could happen here a podcast that's begun. 2396 02:10:14,960 --> 02:10:18,160 Speaker 1: We talk about how things are falling apart, and occasionally, 2397 02:10:18,560 --> 02:10:21,560 Speaker 1: when we're feeling good, how to maybe how to maybe 2398 02:10:21,800 --> 02:10:24,440 Speaker 1: put them back together a little bit. But today we're 2399 02:10:24,480 --> 02:10:30,040 Speaker 1: more talking about the growing consensus that things in the 2400 02:10:30,240 --> 02:10:35,080 Speaker 1: US culture wars are heating up to an unacceptable level 2401 02:10:35,200 --> 02:10:37,480 Speaker 1: and and maybe people are going to start doing some 2402 02:10:38,520 --> 02:10:41,960 Speaker 1: non culture type wars here in the near future, like 2403 02:10:42,040 --> 02:10:44,400 Speaker 1: a civil type war here in the near future. Those 2404 02:10:44,440 --> 02:10:46,520 Speaker 1: of you who know me, which why would you be 2405 02:10:46,560 --> 02:10:48,560 Speaker 1: listening to this podcast if you If you don't know, 2406 02:10:49,280 --> 02:10:53,040 Speaker 1: like the earlier seasons of this exact show, uh know 2407 02:10:53,200 --> 02:10:55,320 Speaker 1: that I talk a lot about the potential of a 2408 02:10:55,400 --> 02:10:58,280 Speaker 1: mass civil conflict in the United States. I've been kind 2409 02:10:58,280 --> 02:11:00,240 Speaker 1: of trying to warn about it for a while, and 2410 02:11:00,280 --> 02:11:02,440 Speaker 1: today we're gonna do an episode about some of the 2411 02:11:03,480 --> 02:11:07,839 Speaker 1: more mainstream sources that have started to kind of accept 2412 02:11:07,880 --> 02:11:12,080 Speaker 1: this as a possibility, um and get concerned about it. Garrison, 2413 02:11:12,160 --> 02:11:15,960 Speaker 1: You've presented us with three articles, one from NBC News, 2414 02:11:16,240 --> 02:11:20,520 Speaker 1: one from The Independent, and one from the Brookings Institute, 2415 02:11:21,280 --> 02:11:25,760 Speaker 1: all kind of fiddling around this idea that certain unnamed 2416 02:11:25,880 --> 02:11:29,880 Speaker 1: journalists have spent years discussing. So, yeah, we're gonna we're 2417 02:11:29,880 --> 02:11:34,800 Speaker 1: gonna get into it. Garrison. Yeah, so it is the past. 2418 02:11:34,880 --> 02:11:37,520 Speaker 1: The past few months we have well, I've I've been 2419 02:11:37,640 --> 02:11:41,680 Speaker 1: watching to see how how this idea has been slowly 2420 02:11:41,760 --> 02:11:44,360 Speaker 1: kind of getting in popularity. Of course, there was like 2421 02:11:44,400 --> 02:11:46,720 Speaker 1: a spike in this around like January six, but then 2422 02:11:46,760 --> 02:11:49,160 Speaker 1: stuff kind of settled down, and now we're kind of 2423 02:11:49,480 --> 02:11:52,280 Speaker 1: seeing it come back up against We had these these 2424 02:11:52,320 --> 02:11:55,320 Speaker 1: three pieces all published within like a month of each other, um, 2425 02:11:56,240 --> 02:11:58,520 Speaker 1: all kind of on this topic and specifically, like the 2426 02:11:58,600 --> 02:12:02,680 Speaker 1: pieces themselves are definitely going coming at this from a 2427 02:12:02,760 --> 02:12:06,320 Speaker 1: more like liberal perspective, But the thing that made them 2428 02:12:06,360 --> 02:12:08,640 Speaker 1: interesting is that they did have a decent number of 2429 02:12:08,760 --> 02:12:12,200 Speaker 1: like of of polls and uh and and surveys in 2430 02:12:12,280 --> 02:12:15,080 Speaker 1: them based on like what who who, what types of 2431 02:12:15,160 --> 02:12:18,120 Speaker 1: people think are like are thinking about this and think 2432 02:12:18,160 --> 02:12:21,640 Speaker 1: it's more more of a possibility. One survey published on 2433 02:12:22,040 --> 02:12:27,720 Speaker 1: November one, they've said eighteen percent of Americans believe that 2434 02:12:28,240 --> 02:12:31,800 Speaker 1: quote unquote patriots might have to resort to violence to 2435 02:12:31,960 --> 02:12:35,480 Speaker 1: quote save the country. Um so. And then that included 2436 02:12:35,520 --> 02:12:39,400 Speaker 1: a thirty percent of Republicans, um so, but eighteen percent 2437 02:12:39,480 --> 02:12:43,000 Speaker 1: of all of of of of Americans in general Republicans. Yeah, 2438 02:12:43,080 --> 02:12:46,839 Speaker 1: So using that very specifically turn of phrase is definitely 2439 02:12:47,560 --> 02:12:50,320 Speaker 1: uh notable. And then another pole from arlier in the 2440 02:12:50,400 --> 02:12:54,160 Speaker 1: year found that forty six percent of people thought the 2441 02:12:54,240 --> 02:12:59,120 Speaker 1: country was somewhat or very likely to have another type 2442 02:12:59,200 --> 02:13:02,440 Speaker 1: of civil war. And that's the plurality of the people 2443 02:13:02,520 --> 02:13:05,960 Speaker 1: pulled in that because only like said unlikely, So the 2444 02:13:06,040 --> 02:13:08,800 Speaker 1: majority of people are not the majority of people pulled, 2445 02:13:08,920 --> 02:13:13,080 Speaker 1: but like the most common leaned on, yes it is, 2446 02:13:13,400 --> 02:13:15,920 Speaker 1: I think maybe we're going to have us a war, yeah, 2447 02:13:16,000 --> 02:13:19,080 Speaker 1: which is not great. The one that uh NBC published 2448 02:13:19,400 --> 02:13:21,720 Speaker 1: included in their article had but like thirty three percent 2449 02:13:21,800 --> 02:13:24,360 Speaker 1: of people saying no, it's it's probably not gonna happen 2450 02:13:25,520 --> 02:13:28,080 Speaker 1: kind of on the maybe and and and and forty seven, 2451 02:13:28,200 --> 02:13:31,440 Speaker 1: leaning on yeah, this maybe this is this is probably 2452 02:13:31,480 --> 02:13:35,160 Speaker 1: gonna happen at some point soon. Yep. I mean a 2453 02:13:35,240 --> 02:13:37,280 Speaker 1: lot of a lot, a lot of what these articles 2454 02:13:37,320 --> 02:13:39,560 Speaker 1: are talking about is just like kind of the increased 2455 02:13:40,760 --> 02:13:44,960 Speaker 1: increased threats against like elected officials and then increased almost 2456 02:13:45,040 --> 02:13:49,480 Speaker 1: like militancy or performative militancy of elected officials types of 2457 02:13:49,600 --> 02:13:52,840 Speaker 1: like like you know, like a performatively bringing your gun 2458 02:13:52,960 --> 02:13:55,240 Speaker 1: into Congress and that type of thing. And it lays 2459 02:13:55,280 --> 02:13:56,960 Speaker 1: out like a list of a list of like of 2460 02:13:57,200 --> 02:14:01,480 Speaker 1: of of threats or stuff enacted against governors, congressmen, all 2461 02:14:01,560 --> 02:14:04,440 Speaker 1: that kind of stuff in in the past, in the 2462 02:14:04,520 --> 02:14:08,200 Speaker 1: past like a year year mainly. Yeah. One of the 2463 02:14:08,280 --> 02:14:11,720 Speaker 1: things I really disagree about the Brookings because Brookings is 2464 02:14:11,760 --> 02:14:14,240 Speaker 1: the one who kind of is analyzing that that big 2465 02:14:14,360 --> 02:14:16,760 Speaker 1: poll and talking about it. Has a list of reasons 2466 02:14:16,840 --> 02:14:19,440 Speaker 1: why we might have a civil war and a list 2467 02:14:19,480 --> 02:14:22,080 Speaker 1: of reasons why it's unlikely. And one of the reasons 2468 02:14:22,120 --> 02:14:24,880 Speaker 1: why it's unlikely is quote, most of the organizations talking 2469 02:14:24,880 --> 02:14:28,760 Speaker 1: about civil war or private not public entities, um. And 2470 02:14:28,880 --> 02:14:31,440 Speaker 1: note that when Southern states seceded in eighteen sixty they 2471 02:14:31,520 --> 02:14:35,840 Speaker 1: had police forces, military organizations, and state sponsored militias. The 2472 02:14:36,040 --> 02:14:42,560 Speaker 1: rights of that now, Yeah, Like there's a ton of 2473 02:14:43,000 --> 02:14:47,800 Speaker 1: signal posting from guys like Jim Jordan's uh Hawthorne, um, 2474 02:14:48,160 --> 02:14:54,240 Speaker 1: Gates Bobert um, a ton of signal posting of GOSAR, 2475 02:14:54,880 --> 02:14:59,600 Speaker 1: from elected Republican leaders, from governors, from state level elected officials, um. 2476 02:14:59,680 --> 02:15:02,680 Speaker 1: And like regular street cops. Yeah, and like regular street 2477 02:15:02,720 --> 02:15:06,240 Speaker 1: cops that are like civil war adjacent, um, if not 2478 02:15:06,520 --> 02:15:09,800 Speaker 1: directly advocating for internet scene violence. So I think that 2479 02:15:09,920 --> 02:15:13,760 Speaker 1: that I don't think Brookings, I don't think they're analysis 2480 02:15:13,800 --> 02:15:18,200 Speaker 1: is spot on with this. And I think there's just 2481 02:15:18,240 --> 02:15:21,920 Speaker 1: one other thing that's interesting about that, which is I 2482 02:15:22,000 --> 02:15:25,880 Speaker 1: think it was one of those are these our sps 2483 02:15:26,000 --> 02:15:28,640 Speaker 1: arguing that it was like, well, the Pentagon's not particularly 2484 02:15:28,720 --> 02:15:31,280 Speaker 1: civil like, well, the Pentagon doesn't want civil war, They're 2485 02:15:31,280 --> 02:15:32,720 Speaker 1: not gonna step into it. But but I think it 2486 02:15:32,840 --> 02:15:35,120 Speaker 1: is also important to note that, like, like if you 2487 02:15:35,120 --> 02:15:38,320 Speaker 1: remember what happened last summer, there's a lot of FEDS 2488 02:15:38,600 --> 02:15:41,760 Speaker 1: who are just like, you know, like when like yeah, 2489 02:15:41,880 --> 02:15:44,400 Speaker 1: so so you know, the the army kind of doesn't 2490 02:15:44,440 --> 02:15:47,440 Speaker 1: want Trump to like send the army against protesters. But 2491 02:15:47,560 --> 02:15:52,600 Speaker 1: like you know, like bor Tak for example, like was 2492 02:15:53,120 --> 02:15:57,560 Speaker 1: just like absolutely hyped up to just like absolutely just 2493 02:15:58,720 --> 02:16:01,400 Speaker 1: go disappear a bunch of peopowl and they were very 2494 02:16:01,440 --> 02:16:03,520 Speaker 1: excited about that part. Yeah, Yeah, they love they love 2495 02:16:03,600 --> 02:16:07,000 Speaker 1: this stuff, and it's like, yeah, the notion that it's 2496 02:16:07,080 --> 02:16:10,800 Speaker 1: less likely because it doesn't have like formal police backing 2497 02:16:10,920 --> 02:16:13,280 Speaker 1: is really silly because if you spend any time monitoring 2498 02:16:13,400 --> 02:16:15,800 Speaker 1: these type of militia groups, you know that a good 2499 02:16:15,840 --> 02:16:17,720 Speaker 1: portion of them are also members of some type of 2500 02:16:17,760 --> 02:16:22,640 Speaker 1: law enforcement or have like family connections to There have 2501 02:16:22,800 --> 02:16:25,920 Speaker 1: been a bunch of cases of weapons being stolen stolen 2502 02:16:26,000 --> 02:16:29,920 Speaker 1: from forts um, particularly in like the West coast right now, Like, yeah, 2503 02:16:29,960 --> 02:16:32,800 Speaker 1: there's a ton of connections to the and a ton 2504 02:16:32,840 --> 02:16:34,840 Speaker 1: of like members in common. It's like at the Capital 2505 02:16:34,920 --> 02:16:38,959 Speaker 1: riot there were like thirty something active duty police officers involved. UM. 2506 02:16:40,040 --> 02:16:42,840 Speaker 1: To say that there's not direct connections with law enforcement 2507 02:16:43,040 --> 02:16:47,680 Speaker 1: is nonsense. And it's true that like our military leadership 2508 02:16:48,600 --> 02:16:51,800 Speaker 1: remains pretty much a political and very like committed to 2509 02:16:51,920 --> 02:16:54,320 Speaker 1: being a political in the sense that like in the 2510 02:16:54,640 --> 02:16:58,280 Speaker 1: within the like US partisan context, right, like they don't 2511 02:16:58,360 --> 02:17:01,519 Speaker 1: come in to prop up the Democrats of the Republicans, 2512 02:17:01,560 --> 02:17:05,480 Speaker 1: And I don't think that's immediately likely. But police forces 2513 02:17:05,520 --> 02:17:08,520 Speaker 1: in the United States are extremely politicized and have more 2514 02:17:08,600 --> 02:17:13,720 Speaker 1: than enough power to carry out a counterinsurgency campaign nationwide. 2515 02:17:13,760 --> 02:17:15,760 Speaker 1: And as long as the US military didn't step in, 2516 02:17:15,959 --> 02:17:18,840 Speaker 1: and why would they, like the cops are willing and 2517 02:17:18,959 --> 02:17:23,280 Speaker 1: able to do the civil warring for the government. Why 2518 02:17:23,320 --> 02:17:26,280 Speaker 1: do you think they have all those tanks? You? So? Yeah, 2519 02:17:26,360 --> 02:17:28,240 Speaker 1: like there is there is a lot of backing um, 2520 02:17:28,800 --> 02:17:31,720 Speaker 1: at least performatively among certain types of like writing politicians 2521 02:17:31,760 --> 02:17:33,680 Speaker 1: and of course police. But I think a lot of 2522 02:17:33,720 --> 02:17:35,640 Speaker 1: what the politicians are trying to do is more like 2523 02:17:36,680 --> 02:17:41,440 Speaker 1: encourage regular folks or people in like civilian militias to 2524 02:17:41,600 --> 02:17:46,080 Speaker 1: just start doing violence against other elected leaders. That seems 2525 02:17:46,080 --> 02:17:49,000 Speaker 1: to be like like like Bobart and that, and those 2526 02:17:49,040 --> 02:17:52,280 Speaker 1: types aren't. They're not like telling police to go do this. 2527 02:17:52,720 --> 02:17:56,000 Speaker 1: They're speaking to like regular people. UM. And I think 2528 02:17:56,360 --> 02:17:59,400 Speaker 1: one one one decent point the actually the nbcp's actually 2529 02:17:59,440 --> 02:18:00,760 Speaker 1: puts out, it's it's all of this kind of like 2530 02:18:00,879 --> 02:18:05,360 Speaker 1: divisive um and and more violent of rhetoric and behavior 2531 02:18:05,480 --> 02:18:08,800 Speaker 1: displayed by and towards some of our like officials. Does 2532 02:18:08,840 --> 02:18:12,280 Speaker 1: not necessarily mean another like civil war in terms of 2533 02:18:12,360 --> 02:18:16,000 Speaker 1: like a military conduct contest between states. Um, it just 2534 02:18:16,120 --> 02:18:18,080 Speaker 1: does not mean that it's inevitable or even probable or 2535 02:18:18,120 --> 02:18:21,200 Speaker 1: even like probable. A more likely scenario is a turbulent 2536 02:18:21,320 --> 02:18:26,360 Speaker 1: era of civil disturbances, armed confrontations, standoffs, threats, assassination attempts, 2537 02:18:26,520 --> 02:18:30,000 Speaker 1: and other acts of political violence. In other words, one 2538 02:18:30,080 --> 02:18:32,720 Speaker 1: that's a lot like the last two years of American history, 2539 02:18:32,920 --> 02:18:35,480 Speaker 1: which I feel like, yeah, in terms of in terms 2540 02:18:35,520 --> 02:18:37,640 Speaker 1: of the likelihood of there being like a more formally 2541 02:18:37,720 --> 02:18:42,959 Speaker 1: declared kind of conflict versus just versus just like increasingly 2542 02:18:43,879 --> 02:18:50,800 Speaker 1: increasingly normalizing extreme violence against uh you know, quote unquote 2543 02:18:50,840 --> 02:18:54,440 Speaker 1: fellow countrymen. I think is is ah, yeah, like that 2544 02:18:54,560 --> 02:18:56,480 Speaker 1: there's we are going to be more likely to be 2545 02:18:56,560 --> 02:18:59,280 Speaker 1: just moving in that direction slowly, and at the point 2546 02:18:59,360 --> 02:19:02,920 Speaker 1: when there is frequent enough exchange of the fire, that's 2547 02:19:02,959 --> 02:19:05,000 Speaker 1: when we say, yeah, we're basically in a civil war. 2548 02:19:05,040 --> 02:19:07,800 Speaker 1: We're just not calling it that, um, which is you know, 2549 02:19:07,959 --> 02:19:10,440 Speaker 1: that's the points that you, Robert have made a lot 2550 02:19:10,560 --> 02:19:14,959 Speaker 1: in the in the past. Yeah, I mean, and there's 2551 02:19:15,040 --> 02:19:18,280 Speaker 1: I I'm I think a lot of this is just 2552 02:19:18,440 --> 02:19:21,320 Speaker 1: a failure of kind of imagination and ability to accept 2553 02:19:21,720 --> 02:19:24,440 Speaker 1: from a group like Brookings, who I know has paid 2554 02:19:24,560 --> 02:19:27,560 Speaker 1: some attention to the Syrian Civil War, that like civil 2555 02:19:27,640 --> 02:19:31,160 Speaker 1: conflicts in the United States or in the in the 2556 02:19:31,520 --> 02:19:35,520 Speaker 1: twenty one century often don't like there's no clear regional split. 2557 02:19:35,600 --> 02:19:37,080 Speaker 1: Like you look at a lot of what was happening 2558 02:19:37,120 --> 02:19:40,200 Speaker 1: in Syria. You had cities divided up by neighborhoods between 2559 02:19:40,280 --> 02:19:44,160 Speaker 1: like who who was in charge? Um, you know that 2560 02:19:44,440 --> 02:19:47,160 Speaker 1: that's very much what we see here. And you do 2561 02:19:47,240 --> 02:19:50,360 Speaker 1: see like clear regional split between urban and rural divides. 2562 02:19:50,480 --> 02:19:53,320 Speaker 1: And it's not like they say, within specific states, but 2563 02:19:53,480 --> 02:19:56,920 Speaker 1: like I would say, it's very specific and limited states 2564 02:19:56,959 --> 02:20:00,640 Speaker 1: that don't have huge urban rural divides. Um, Like, that's 2565 02:20:00,760 --> 02:20:03,800 Speaker 1: that is the norm everywhere in this country that I've been. 2566 02:20:04,600 --> 02:20:07,680 Speaker 1: Maybe it's different in fucking Vermont or New Hampshire, but 2567 02:20:07,720 --> 02:20:12,080 Speaker 1: I don't trust those places. Um yeah, And I guess 2568 02:20:13,320 --> 02:20:18,680 Speaker 1: I think they're overly optimistic based on kind of a 2569 02:20:18,720 --> 02:20:22,480 Speaker 1: fundamental misunderstanding of how these sorts of conflicts occur. Um 2570 02:20:23,400 --> 02:20:26,200 Speaker 1: that said, I don't know, Like it's it's one of 2571 02:20:26,280 --> 02:20:29,280 Speaker 1: those things I think the number one the number one 2572 02:20:29,360 --> 02:20:31,480 Speaker 1: thing you should be looking at in terms of whether 2573 02:20:31,600 --> 02:20:35,520 Speaker 1: or not a civil war is likely is the number 2574 02:20:35,600 --> 02:20:38,600 Speaker 1: of people who respond in polls with things like, yes, 2575 02:20:38,680 --> 02:20:41,200 Speaker 1: I think we need to use violence to restore the 2576 02:20:41,320 --> 02:20:45,920 Speaker 1: nation or whatever. UM that it's not just enough, like 2577 02:20:46,080 --> 02:20:48,600 Speaker 1: I I it's not just enough to think that a 2578 02:20:48,720 --> 02:20:50,880 Speaker 1: civil war is likely, because a lot of that's just 2579 02:20:51,000 --> 02:20:53,480 Speaker 1: based on people who don't want one, but are paying 2580 02:20:53,520 --> 02:20:56,200 Speaker 1: attention to the same media as everybody else and are 2581 02:20:56,240 --> 02:20:58,240 Speaker 1: watching the same stuff we're watching, and they're like, well, 2582 02:20:58,280 --> 02:21:01,800 Speaker 1: this seems sketchy. I think think the main indicator is 2583 02:21:02,600 --> 02:21:06,080 Speaker 1: the number of people who respond, yeah, I think it 2584 02:21:06,120 --> 02:21:08,600 Speaker 1: would be awesome to use violence as a like in 2585 02:21:08,760 --> 02:21:12,640 Speaker 1: order to make America more like what I wanted to be. UM. 2586 02:21:14,040 --> 02:21:16,800 Speaker 1: And again that doesn't mean we'll we'll creep over the point. 2587 02:21:16,879 --> 02:21:19,960 Speaker 1: There's a number of interesting things that have happened UM 2588 02:21:20,480 --> 02:21:23,560 Speaker 1: on kind of the we're headed towards the civil war side. 2589 02:21:23,720 --> 02:21:26,120 Speaker 1: The number one thing that I've seen recently is the 2590 02:21:26,240 --> 02:21:30,600 Speaker 1: use of paramilitary organizations UM to kind of choke uh 2591 02:21:30,959 --> 02:21:35,480 Speaker 1: local civil institutions UM like school boards. I I see 2592 02:21:35,520 --> 02:21:38,520 Speaker 1: that as very concerning and as kind of prelude to 2593 02:21:38,680 --> 02:21:42,880 Speaker 1: the sort of armed mobilizations that you would see unlocalized 2594 02:21:42,920 --> 02:21:46,000 Speaker 1: areas in any kind of civil conflict. It's it's the 2595 02:21:46,600 --> 02:21:49,160 Speaker 1: precursors to death squads. So that's the that's the thing 2596 02:21:49,240 --> 02:21:53,240 Speaker 1: that I see on the ground that worries me most. Um. 2597 02:21:53,560 --> 02:21:57,240 Speaker 1: In terms of the thing that I'm I'm less certain 2598 02:21:57,280 --> 02:21:59,440 Speaker 1: about honestly, Like one of the things they note in 2599 02:21:59,560 --> 02:22:01,880 Speaker 1: here in Brookings article that like the sheer number of 2600 02:22:01,959 --> 02:22:04,040 Speaker 1: guns in the United States is a reason why we 2601 02:22:04,120 --> 02:22:06,760 Speaker 1: might have a civil war, And I agree with that entirely. 2602 02:22:06,840 --> 02:22:10,240 Speaker 1: When you have four million weapons in private hands, it 2603 02:22:10,360 --> 02:22:12,600 Speaker 1: increases the odds that they'll be used in some sort 2604 02:22:12,600 --> 02:22:18,080 Speaker 1: of scale. UM. We've also seen historic numbers of non 2605 02:22:18,160 --> 02:22:21,720 Speaker 1: white people of of of like folks who are from 2606 02:22:21,760 --> 02:22:26,440 Speaker 1: marginalized communities, UM, not just buying up weapons that unprecedented rates, 2607 02:22:26,480 --> 02:22:30,080 Speaker 1: but organizing with them. And I'm not really sure how 2608 02:22:30,200 --> 02:22:32,920 Speaker 1: to think of that. There's certainly a way it could 2609 02:22:32,920 --> 02:22:36,200 Speaker 1: certainly be a very negative development, but it could also be. 2610 02:22:36,920 --> 02:22:38,920 Speaker 1: I think a big part of what I've seen from 2611 02:22:38,959 --> 02:22:43,480 Speaker 1: the right lately is the sense of impunity, UM. And 2612 02:22:43,640 --> 02:22:48,280 Speaker 1: I think the feeling of being matched uh in arms 2613 02:22:48,879 --> 02:22:52,280 Speaker 1: is an end to impunity potentially. UM. Then the big 2614 02:22:52,360 --> 02:22:54,360 Speaker 1: question is, like, well, what about the police, and like, well, 2615 02:22:54,400 --> 02:22:56,320 Speaker 1: if the police side with the riot against you know, 2616 02:22:56,840 --> 02:22:58,880 Speaker 1: there's there's still a number of questions there and we 2617 02:22:58,920 --> 02:23:02,640 Speaker 1: don't have any clean answers. But um, I don't know that. 2618 02:23:02,760 --> 02:23:06,000 Speaker 1: I I think that on the whole, I'm more worried 2619 02:23:06,280 --> 02:23:08,560 Speaker 1: than I was two years ago when I wrote it 2620 02:23:08,640 --> 02:23:12,240 Speaker 1: could happen here. Um, but it's not clean. And I 2621 02:23:12,320 --> 02:23:15,760 Speaker 1: think in some to some extent, I'm I'm a little 2622 02:23:15,840 --> 02:23:18,560 Speaker 1: more worried about something like the years of lead in 2623 02:23:18,720 --> 02:23:22,560 Speaker 1: Italy than I am about Syria right now, if that 2624 02:23:22,720 --> 02:23:25,920 Speaker 1: makes sense, I will say one thing about the years 2625 02:23:25,959 --> 02:23:28,080 Speaker 1: of lead, which because a lot of people talk about 2626 02:23:28,080 --> 02:23:29,480 Speaker 1: the years of less, so that the years a letter 2627 02:23:29,800 --> 02:23:33,240 Speaker 1: this kind of like a roughly ten year period in 2628 02:23:33,320 --> 02:23:40,160 Speaker 1: Italy of I don't know, mass terrorismating political violence with 2629 02:23:40,720 --> 02:23:43,120 Speaker 1: effigant body counts in a way that stood out from 2630 02:23:43,160 --> 02:23:45,160 Speaker 1: the years around it. Yeah, And I mean, you know, 2631 02:23:45,800 --> 02:23:47,480 Speaker 1: the years of lead haus And there's a litt also, 2632 02:23:47,520 --> 02:23:49,480 Speaker 1: there's there's a bunch of intelligence and she's involved. There's 2633 02:23:49,480 --> 02:23:52,560 Speaker 1: a lot of foreign kind of false false bombings, like 2634 02:23:52,680 --> 02:23:54,600 Speaker 1: hundred hundreds of people are being killed in bombings, and 2635 02:23:54,760 --> 02:24:00,800 Speaker 1: I think there there's one absolutely crucial difference between now 2636 02:24:01,080 --> 02:24:02,960 Speaker 1: in the years of let I mean, well, okay, so 2637 02:24:03,280 --> 02:24:06,440 Speaker 1: partially it's that unlike Italy, we don't have seventeen thousand 2638 02:24:06,480 --> 02:24:08,760 Speaker 1: intelligence agency is operating in the US and like trying 2639 02:24:08,800 --> 02:24:11,200 Speaker 1: to kidnap and kill the foreign prime minister. But the 2640 02:24:11,440 --> 02:24:16,040 Speaker 1: the other thing that's very important is that unlike unlike 2641 02:24:16,040 --> 02:24:19,600 Speaker 1: the Italian left, and you know, really unlike the whole 2642 02:24:19,600 --> 02:24:22,480 Speaker 1: global left of the seventies and eighties, there is no 2643 02:24:23,040 --> 02:24:27,920 Speaker 1: American like left wing like left wing I guess you 2644 02:24:27,959 --> 02:24:29,920 Speaker 1: could call like, there's there's no left wing terrorist tradition, 2645 02:24:30,040 --> 02:24:32,320 Speaker 1: right like the like the left doesn't do suicide bombings, 2646 02:24:32,360 --> 02:24:35,800 Speaker 1: the left doesn't kidnap people like like the modern American 2647 02:24:35,879 --> 02:24:38,320 Speaker 1: left doesn't do that, and that a big part of 2648 02:24:38,600 --> 02:24:40,320 Speaker 1: what was happening from the years of lad was that, 2649 02:24:41,000 --> 02:24:42,960 Speaker 1: you know, sometimes the left was doing this. A lot 2650 02:24:43,040 --> 02:24:45,000 Speaker 1: of times it was the state pretending to be the 2651 02:24:45,080 --> 02:24:49,600 Speaker 1: left carrying out bombings. And that isn't really something that 2652 02:24:49,800 --> 02:24:53,320 Speaker 1: is happening right now because there's just like the like, 2653 02:24:53,440 --> 02:24:58,760 Speaker 1: the the left is not in a place where everyone 2654 02:24:58,920 --> 02:25:01,160 Speaker 1: is going, we need to do armed durban guerrilla movements 2655 02:25:02,080 --> 02:25:04,039 Speaker 1: and yeah, so and then that that makes it harder 2656 02:25:04,080 --> 02:25:07,480 Speaker 1: to sort of pin things like pin actual urban guerrilla 2657 02:25:07,520 --> 02:25:09,640 Speaker 1: movement stuff on the left because there's just none of that. 2658 02:25:10,120 --> 02:25:13,480 Speaker 1: But I don't think and I agree years of Left 2659 02:25:13,560 --> 02:25:17,320 Speaker 1: is kind of like a broad Strokes comparison, because what 2660 02:25:17,440 --> 02:25:20,360 Speaker 1: I see is more likely is what we're what we're 2661 02:25:20,360 --> 02:25:23,040 Speaker 1: already witnessing on the ground with these right wing militant 2662 02:25:23,080 --> 02:25:25,840 Speaker 1: groups increases, and they moved to the point of kidnapping 2663 02:25:26,080 --> 02:25:29,320 Speaker 1: and executing and potentially in concert with law enforcement, like 2664 02:25:30,000 --> 02:25:33,600 Speaker 1: doing stuff like in states that have issued harsh laws, 2665 02:25:33,800 --> 02:25:36,240 Speaker 1: you know, banning certain books you have in a town, 2666 02:25:36,520 --> 02:25:39,600 Speaker 1: local law enforcement and militias like go after and grab 2667 02:25:39,720 --> 02:25:43,760 Speaker 1: individual leftists and either kill or imprison them, and conflicts 2668 02:25:43,840 --> 02:25:46,880 Speaker 1: over that, and you have the left increasingly organized an 2669 02:25:47,080 --> 02:25:50,880 Speaker 1: arm um as a defense against that, and then a 2670 02:25:50,959 --> 02:25:53,920 Speaker 1: number of armed conflicts, you know, as a result of that, 2671 02:25:53,959 --> 02:25:57,240 Speaker 1: which maybe then proceed to bombings and stuff that that's terrorism, 2672 02:25:57,360 --> 02:26:01,200 Speaker 1: or proceed to just more kind of skirmishes that the 2673 02:26:01,400 --> 02:26:05,640 Speaker 1: FEDS have a minimal response to, and local or state 2674 02:26:05,720 --> 02:26:09,240 Speaker 1: law enforcement kind of tacitly allows um like that. That's 2675 02:26:09,640 --> 02:26:12,840 Speaker 1: that's kind of obviously that's not a direct comparison to 2676 02:26:12,920 --> 02:26:15,279 Speaker 1: what happened in Italy, but of course we're a different country. 2677 02:26:15,320 --> 02:26:18,080 Speaker 1: But that's kind of that's kind of the kind of 2678 02:26:18,120 --> 02:26:21,440 Speaker 1: brush fire conflict I could see cropping up in the 2679 02:26:21,600 --> 02:26:25,520 Speaker 1: very near future in this country. You know what else 2680 02:26:27,760 --> 02:26:33,440 Speaker 1: will start a series of armed gun fights between left 2681 02:26:33,480 --> 02:26:42,240 Speaker 1: and right in American towns. The products and services they're 2682 02:26:42,320 --> 02:26:44,879 Speaker 1: they're working on it every day, the products and services 2683 02:26:44,920 --> 02:26:48,600 Speaker 1: that support this podcast urged violence on the streets of 2684 02:26:48,680 --> 02:26:53,880 Speaker 1: the United States. That's behind the bastards. Guarantee, Sophie, We're 2685 02:26:53,920 --> 02:26:57,040 Speaker 1: not doing behind the bastards? What what show are we? 2686 02:26:57,320 --> 02:27:03,960 Speaker 1: Who are we? Any? Here's ads? All right? Oh my gosh, 2687 02:27:05,120 --> 02:27:07,920 Speaker 1: Uh we're back. Yeah, what a great ad. I really 2688 02:27:08,000 --> 02:27:15,280 Speaker 1: nailed that transition. Um, just absolutely. So. The next thing 2689 02:27:15,360 --> 02:27:18,480 Speaker 1: that I want to talk about, um, something that I 2690 02:27:18,640 --> 02:27:23,080 Speaker 1: think has some some backing behind it and something that 2691 02:27:23,160 --> 02:27:25,880 Speaker 1: I think is kind of more silly, is that one 2692 02:27:25,920 --> 02:27:29,240 Speaker 1: of one of the reasons that this uh NBC piece 2693 02:27:29,360 --> 02:27:36,200 Speaker 1: by what's his name, uh, Brian Brian Michael Jenkins is 2694 02:27:36,520 --> 02:27:40,240 Speaker 1: uh he says, one of one of the reasons that 2695 02:27:40,360 --> 02:27:43,960 Speaker 1: we're kind of getting more okay with you know, uh, 2696 02:27:44,480 --> 02:27:49,960 Speaker 1: killing or hurting our neighbors essentially is um quote, Americans 2697 02:27:50,040 --> 02:27:53,360 Speaker 1: do fewer things together. Church attendance is declining. Membership and 2698 02:27:53,440 --> 02:27:56,720 Speaker 1: civic organizations and lodges have been decreasing for decades. PTA 2699 02:27:56,800 --> 02:27:58,760 Speaker 1: membership has dropped by nearly half from what it was 2700 02:27:58,840 --> 02:28:03,720 Speaker 1: in sixties, Bowling leagues have almost disappeared, and a shared 2701 02:28:03,800 --> 02:28:08,760 Speaker 1: national experience of military service disintegrated with the abolition of 2702 02:28:08,840 --> 02:28:14,240 Speaker 1: conscription in nineteen seventy three. Meanwhile, self proclaimed citizen militia's 2703 02:28:14,440 --> 02:28:17,440 Speaker 1: driven mainly by far right conspiracy theories, have surged since 2704 02:28:17,480 --> 02:28:19,760 Speaker 1: two US and eight, especially in the past five years. 2705 02:28:20,560 --> 02:28:27,320 Speaker 1: So he is wrong, but he's yes, militias have leagues, 2706 02:28:27,840 --> 02:28:32,680 Speaker 1: militias have risen. But is that due to bowling leagues. Yeah, 2707 02:28:32,760 --> 02:28:35,440 Speaker 1: I don't think it's due to a drop in bowling leagues. 2708 02:28:35,640 --> 02:28:37,480 Speaker 1: I think it's due to the fact that all these 2709 02:28:37,520 --> 02:28:41,400 Speaker 1: guys are terminally online now and we're watching Fox News 2710 02:28:41,480 --> 02:28:44,320 Speaker 1: for twenty years before that. That is the thing is that, like, 2711 02:28:44,760 --> 02:28:48,320 Speaker 1: I don't think this guy, Brian Michael Dickens understands how 2712 02:28:48,440 --> 02:28:52,560 Speaker 1: the Internet intersects with extremism because he's he's doing this 2713 02:28:52,680 --> 02:28:55,800 Speaker 1: from a very like like he's he's acting like we're 2714 02:28:55,840 --> 02:28:58,840 Speaker 1: still in the seventies and he like, like, that's not 2715 02:28:59,040 --> 02:29:01,560 Speaker 1: how the war old works, and I like, people spend 2716 02:29:01,600 --> 02:29:05,000 Speaker 1: their time. No, people aren't doing bowling leagues, but yeah, woman, 2717 02:29:05,240 --> 02:29:07,920 Speaker 1: young men are spending and and you know, middle edgement 2718 02:29:07,959 --> 02:29:10,960 Speaker 1: are spending time online, whether that be discord in a 2719 02:29:11,280 --> 02:29:14,039 Speaker 1: terrorist group chat, or that be a Facebook group that's 2720 02:29:14,080 --> 02:29:17,720 Speaker 1: for a militia, and that's where that socialization is happening. 2721 02:29:18,000 --> 02:29:21,400 Speaker 1: And because the Internet rewards extremism and the hottest take, 2722 02:29:21,760 --> 02:29:24,720 Speaker 1: it's moving in that direction even with people who would 2723 02:29:24,800 --> 02:29:29,240 Speaker 1: ordinarily just have historically the past joined bowling leagues. I guess, 2724 02:29:29,440 --> 02:29:33,360 Speaker 1: but it very it's it's correlation doesn't equal causation. Ship 2725 02:29:33,560 --> 02:29:36,200 Speaker 1: it's wow, less people are in bowling leagues and going 2726 02:29:36,280 --> 02:29:40,880 Speaker 1: to church and militias have grown wildly, wildly, Um, this 2727 02:29:41,600 --> 02:29:43,480 Speaker 1: one must cause the other. And it's like, well, no, 2728 02:29:44,000 --> 02:29:46,600 Speaker 1: they're both both of those things. May have some causes 2729 02:29:46,640 --> 02:29:50,160 Speaker 1: in common, there may be similar factors that are driving 2730 02:29:50,280 --> 02:29:53,880 Speaker 1: both of those things, but they are not caused like 2731 02:29:54,080 --> 02:29:57,800 Speaker 1: they don't necessary. One doesn't necessarily cause the other. Um. 2732 02:29:58,240 --> 02:30:00,720 Speaker 1: And if you like, again, the smart person version of 2733 02:30:00,760 --> 02:30:03,000 Speaker 1: this would be to say, hey, people are doing less 2734 02:30:03,040 --> 02:30:05,640 Speaker 1: things together out in the world. People are reporting because 2735 02:30:05,680 --> 02:30:07,720 Speaker 1: you can find statistic backup for this. People seem to 2736 02:30:07,760 --> 02:30:10,840 Speaker 1: be lonelier than ever. UM, people are more depressed than ever. 2737 02:30:10,959 --> 02:30:14,680 Speaker 1: Suicide rates have risen, and while this is happening, militias 2738 02:30:14,720 --> 02:30:18,520 Speaker 1: and extremist groups have grown. Perhaps there's something about these organizations, 2739 02:30:18,879 --> 02:30:22,680 Speaker 1: UM that makes them particularly attractive when folks are vulnerable 2740 02:30:22,840 --> 02:30:25,200 Speaker 1: due to these things. And like, let's look at you know, 2741 02:30:25,840 --> 02:30:28,440 Speaker 1: the failure of our political system to confront these issues 2742 02:30:28,520 --> 02:30:31,640 Speaker 1: further feeds into the desire amongst some chunk of the 2743 02:30:31,680 --> 02:30:35,520 Speaker 1: populace for some sort of nihilistic cleansing violence. And again, 2744 02:30:36,600 --> 02:30:39,160 Speaker 1: pieces of all the pieces of this article could be 2745 02:30:39,360 --> 02:30:43,480 Speaker 1: could be reassembled into something with um some insight, but 2746 02:30:43,680 --> 02:30:46,760 Speaker 1: I I don't think Brian Michael Jenkins has much. I 2747 02:30:46,800 --> 02:30:49,119 Speaker 1: think it's also an interesting thing to note here about 2748 02:30:49,640 --> 02:30:52,200 Speaker 1: because so the lessing he talks about this, oh, is 2749 02:30:52,360 --> 02:30:54,640 Speaker 1: the thing that formed the commons or national identity was 2750 02:30:55,160 --> 02:30:59,840 Speaker 1: shared universal Military service. And it's like, okay, the the 2751 02:31:00,120 --> 02:31:03,400 Speaker 1: reason shared universal military service went away was that everyone 2752 02:31:03,520 --> 02:31:06,440 Speaker 1: kept murdering literally just blowing their officers up in Vietnam 2753 02:31:07,640 --> 02:31:09,280 Speaker 1: like that. And you know, if if you want to 2754 02:31:09,320 --> 02:31:12,800 Speaker 1: talk about like incredibly high levels of political polarization and 2755 02:31:12,959 --> 02:31:16,800 Speaker 1: like mass violence between Americans. I mean, the army basically 2756 02:31:16,920 --> 02:31:20,880 Speaker 1: fighting a civil war against itself in Vietnam is you know, 2757 02:31:21,000 --> 02:31:23,720 Speaker 1: in an enormously important part of this. And then simultaneously 2758 02:31:24,200 --> 02:31:27,040 Speaker 1: the sort of right wing vets returning home and you know, 2759 02:31:27,879 --> 02:31:30,040 Speaker 1: going Louis Beam and stuff like that that you know, 2760 02:31:31,760 --> 02:31:35,920 Speaker 1: he's relying on this kind of mythos of this. So 2761 02:31:36,320 --> 02:31:38,240 Speaker 1: there was a time when you know, it's it's basic, 2762 02:31:38,280 --> 02:31:40,360 Speaker 1: it's basically made it make America great again. But sort 2763 02:31:40,400 --> 02:31:43,960 Speaker 1: of like, yeah, that this type of rhetoric is actually 2764 02:31:44,080 --> 02:31:47,400 Speaker 1: very similar to like the return return to tradition stuff, 2765 02:31:47,400 --> 02:31:50,080 Speaker 1: being like the solution to our extremism that need to 2766 02:31:50,120 --> 02:31:52,120 Speaker 1: be going to church church again, being a part of 2767 02:31:52,200 --> 02:31:56,880 Speaker 1: civil organizations, joining bowling leagues and conscript conscripted military service. 2768 02:31:57,240 --> 02:32:01,160 Speaker 1: That's like that is that that is just the same 2769 02:32:01,520 --> 02:32:03,760 Speaker 1: that that is very similar to like the make America 2770 02:32:03,760 --> 02:32:06,760 Speaker 1: grade again, returned to tradition sect because those are those 2771 02:32:06,800 --> 02:32:09,600 Speaker 1: are also their goals, except that they're just willing to 2772 02:32:09,680 --> 02:32:12,480 Speaker 1: use violence to achieve those goals, whereas this guy just 2773 02:32:12,640 --> 02:32:15,360 Speaker 1: wants people to start doing that again. I guess, um, 2774 02:32:15,600 --> 02:32:17,760 Speaker 1: I don't know, Yeah, like in terms of like military 2775 02:32:17,840 --> 02:32:21,880 Speaker 1: service not leading to extremism, I mean, like Oklahoma City bombing. 2776 02:32:22,320 --> 02:32:24,480 Speaker 1: I don't, I don't, I don't really there is other 2777 02:32:24,520 --> 02:32:26,600 Speaker 1: stuff going on there. But like in terms of terms 2778 02:32:26,640 --> 02:32:28,720 Speaker 1: of that being like an example, it is, it is 2779 02:32:28,800 --> 02:32:32,480 Speaker 1: very silly because a lot of a lot of a 2780 02:32:32,520 --> 02:32:34,840 Speaker 1: lot of the guys even inside you know, are are 2781 02:32:34,920 --> 02:32:37,080 Speaker 1: current like three per centers and stuff. A lot of 2782 02:32:37,160 --> 02:32:43,640 Speaker 1: them have former military service, so that I mean, but like, yeah, 2783 02:32:44,520 --> 02:32:48,040 Speaker 1: citizen militias in terms of gaining popularity, but specifically due 2784 02:32:48,120 --> 02:32:51,199 Speaker 1: to um kind of overall distrust of the federal government 2785 02:32:51,360 --> 02:32:55,520 Speaker 1: and the type of socialization that being online too much 2786 02:32:57,160 --> 02:33:00,840 Speaker 1: results in, has yes, grown, grown, grown the militia movement 2787 02:33:00,920 --> 02:33:06,080 Speaker 1: a lot um and and I just don't see how 2788 02:33:06,840 --> 02:33:09,200 Speaker 1: Bowling is going to solve that issue in terms of 2789 02:33:10,520 --> 02:33:13,040 Speaker 1: in terms of how do we mean to trust the 2790 02:33:13,080 --> 02:33:15,879 Speaker 1: federal government? Solve that issue? Garrison. But but you've never 2791 02:33:16,040 --> 02:33:18,959 Speaker 1: watched The Big Lebowski, so you wouldn't you wouldn't understand. 2792 02:33:19,560 --> 02:33:22,320 Speaker 1: I have not watched The Big Lebowski. So I'm kind 2793 02:33:22,320 --> 02:33:24,000 Speaker 1: of I'm kind of I'm kind of done with the 2794 02:33:25,440 --> 02:33:28,320 Speaker 1: kind of done with the NBC piece there. I know, 2795 02:33:28,440 --> 02:33:33,760 Speaker 1: there was there was something Brian Michael Jenkins. The other 2796 02:33:33,879 --> 02:33:36,920 Speaker 1: thing on on the Brookings thing that I have a 2797 02:33:37,160 --> 02:33:41,000 Speaker 1: decent issue with is that they're one of the reasons 2798 02:33:41,080 --> 02:33:42,880 Speaker 1: they give for and and this is actually something that 2799 02:33:42,959 --> 02:33:45,040 Speaker 1: Brian Michael Jenkins also brings up with the NBC piece, 2800 02:33:45,120 --> 02:33:47,120 Speaker 1: is that one of the reasons why they believe the 2801 02:33:47,160 --> 02:33:49,720 Speaker 1: civil war is not as inevitable is because there is 2802 02:33:49,800 --> 02:33:54,120 Speaker 1: no clear regional split like a North South divide, and 2803 02:33:54,400 --> 02:33:56,680 Speaker 1: they for some reason think this means that there is 2804 02:33:56,760 --> 02:34:01,160 Speaker 1: less likely to be civil conflict. Um. They they recognized 2805 02:34:01,200 --> 02:34:04,440 Speaker 1: there is an urban rule divide in most states, but 2806 02:34:04,600 --> 02:34:08,400 Speaker 1: because there is no large, kind of obvious North South divide, 2807 02:34:08,480 --> 02:34:10,120 Speaker 1: they think this is going to make a civil war 2808 02:34:10,280 --> 02:34:12,879 Speaker 1: less likely. Well, the map would really be a pain 2809 02:34:12,959 --> 02:34:15,400 Speaker 1: in the ass, so it probably won't happen, right, Like 2810 02:34:15,520 --> 02:34:17,880 Speaker 1: that's that's the thing they're thinking, is like, Oh, if 2811 02:34:17,920 --> 02:34:20,080 Speaker 1: I was gonna if I've have to map this out, 2812 02:34:20,120 --> 02:34:22,600 Speaker 1: it's gonna be too complicated. When I read that, I 2813 02:34:22,720 --> 02:34:25,680 Speaker 1: had flashbacks to my first trip to a war zone 2814 02:34:25,680 --> 02:34:28,760 Speaker 1: in Ukraine, where we were like taking Google maps up 2815 02:34:28,800 --> 02:34:30,720 Speaker 1: to a certain point and then we had to use 2816 02:34:30,920 --> 02:34:33,240 Speaker 1: like hand drawn notes because he was like, well, the 2817 02:34:33,600 --> 02:34:36,560 Speaker 1: different like the different chunks of this air next like 2818 02:34:36,680 --> 02:34:39,560 Speaker 1: twenty acres that are owned by the separatists as opposed 2819 02:34:39,600 --> 02:34:42,040 Speaker 1: to the government are like you can't use Google, It'll 2820 02:34:42,080 --> 02:34:45,879 Speaker 1: send you into enemy territories because it's not a clean 2821 02:34:45,959 --> 02:34:49,200 Speaker 1: break because you had literally suburbs of cities fighting each 2822 02:34:49,240 --> 02:34:52,640 Speaker 1: other and you still do. Yeah, this is a this 2823 02:34:52,800 --> 02:34:54,360 Speaker 1: is you know, I think personally, this this is this 2824 02:34:54,480 --> 02:34:57,200 Speaker 1: is a sort of peak American brain thing because you know, 2825 02:34:57,520 --> 02:34:59,920 Speaker 1: there's there's been like five ever civil wars that are 2826 02:35:00,000 --> 02:35:02,360 Speaker 1: broken like this, and the problem is that there's American 2827 02:35:02,400 --> 02:35:05,160 Speaker 1: Civil War and then we also fought in both Vietnam 2828 02:35:05,200 --> 02:35:09,440 Speaker 1: and North Korea. But like, yeah, yeah, we were really 2829 02:35:09,600 --> 02:35:12,240 Speaker 1: civil war. Yeah yeah, yeah, that's that's there was fighting 2830 02:35:12,320 --> 02:35:14,440 Speaker 1: between two halfs of the country that it was a 2831 02:35:14,560 --> 02:35:17,080 Speaker 1: proxy for two others several other kind of ye and 2832 02:35:17,160 --> 02:35:19,840 Speaker 1: that's yeah. And that's and that's the thing that like, 2833 02:35:20,640 --> 02:35:24,720 Speaker 1: it's the combination of the American Civil War was very 2834 02:35:24,920 --> 02:35:29,240 Speaker 1: unique civil war, and then the other major things that 2835 02:35:29,360 --> 02:35:31,760 Speaker 1: we think of as like quote unquote civil wars were 2836 02:35:31,879 --> 02:35:33,840 Speaker 1: you know, we're basically cold war stuff. And I mean, 2837 02:35:33,959 --> 02:35:35,880 Speaker 1: you know, like that there there are a couple other 2838 02:35:36,160 --> 02:35:39,280 Speaker 1: like yeah, I mean there have been other examples of 2839 02:35:39,320 --> 02:35:41,400 Speaker 1: like secessionist stuff like that. Like I mean, in in 2840 02:35:41,800 --> 02:35:44,400 Speaker 1: any civil war, like there's a lot of other countries 2841 02:35:44,480 --> 02:35:46,400 Speaker 1: that get involved. In the US Civil War, there was 2842 02:35:46,440 --> 02:35:49,240 Speaker 1: a significant amount of that sort of thing. And even 2843 02:35:49,360 --> 02:35:52,160 Speaker 1: even even even in the US Civil War, like there 2844 02:35:52,200 --> 02:35:55,040 Speaker 1: are just like towns in the middle of like Confederate 2845 02:35:55,160 --> 02:35:57,080 Speaker 1: Territory they're like, no, funk this, we're not going over. 2846 02:35:57,680 --> 02:36:00,040 Speaker 1: But everyone but people have this just like incredibly i 2847 02:36:00,160 --> 02:36:02,720 Speaker 1: optic view of what a civil war is. And it's 2848 02:36:02,760 --> 02:36:05,160 Speaker 1: like every other civil war that's been fought in the 2849 02:36:05,280 --> 02:36:10,039 Speaker 1: last like fifty years has been just seven thousand factions 2850 02:36:10,680 --> 02:36:14,800 Speaker 1: like neighborhood fighting each other. I don't know, it's just 2851 02:36:14,840 --> 02:36:18,320 Speaker 1: incredibly frustrating watch these people not understand this. It's very 2852 02:36:18,400 --> 02:36:22,840 Speaker 1: America brained, and it's very sad because I'm going to 2853 02:36:22,920 --> 02:36:25,080 Speaker 1: read a quote that's gonna make us want to purge 2854 02:36:25,120 --> 02:36:29,200 Speaker 1: our ears. There are urban rule differences within specific states, 2855 02:36:29,320 --> 02:36:33,279 Speaker 1: with progressives dominating the cities while conservatives reside in rural communities, 2856 02:36:33,520 --> 02:36:36,240 Speaker 1: but that is a far different geographic divide than when 2857 02:36:36,280 --> 02:36:39,040 Speaker 1: one region could wage war on another. The lack of 2858 02:36:39,080 --> 02:36:43,240 Speaker 1: a distinctive or uniform geographic division limits the ability to 2859 02:36:43,400 --> 02:36:47,000 Speaker 1: confront other areas organized supply chains and mobilize the population. 2860 02:36:47,280 --> 02:36:49,680 Speaker 1: There can be local skirmiches between different forces, but not 2861 02:36:49,800 --> 02:36:53,640 Speaker 1: a situation where one state or region attacks another, which 2862 02:36:53,959 --> 02:36:58,120 Speaker 1: is complete nonsense And that's not how like it's like 2863 02:36:58,200 --> 02:37:02,039 Speaker 1: they don't understand that really fighting exists, and they don't 2864 02:37:02,120 --> 02:37:06,039 Speaker 1: understand how the whole, the whole, the whole part about 2865 02:37:06,600 --> 02:37:09,280 Speaker 1: organizing supply chains and mobilized population, like that is just 2866 02:37:09,400 --> 02:37:13,080 Speaker 1: another way to fight a war is by exploiting that 2867 02:37:13,400 --> 02:37:17,240 Speaker 1: specific thing like the fact that cities are so isolated 2868 02:37:17,720 --> 02:37:20,640 Speaker 1: um and lack and and and lack of home much 2869 02:37:20,720 --> 02:37:23,360 Speaker 1: resources and the fact that rural areas are isolated in 2870 02:37:23,360 --> 02:37:25,360 Speaker 1: a different way and lack of separate resources. That is 2871 02:37:25,440 --> 02:37:28,080 Speaker 1: not something that makes a civil war less likely. That 2872 02:37:28,200 --> 02:37:32,440 Speaker 1: just makes it more complicated and makes it fighting over 2873 02:37:32,560 --> 02:37:36,080 Speaker 1: Amazon fulfillment centers and the like. Yeah, like it's it's 2874 02:37:36,280 --> 02:37:41,080 Speaker 1: the it is It is ridiculous, um saying that, Yeah, 2875 02:37:41,400 --> 02:37:45,000 Speaker 1: saying that the that that it's it's far different from 2876 02:37:45,000 --> 02:37:47,760 Speaker 1: a geographic divide that one reacher could wage one another 2877 02:37:47,879 --> 02:37:50,240 Speaker 1: is like that, No that you're you're just saying something 2878 02:37:50,320 --> 02:37:53,520 Speaker 1: that is just completely wrong and like you have not 2879 02:37:53,720 --> 02:37:58,560 Speaker 1: studied any type of like urban conflict whatsoever. Yeah, And 2880 02:37:58,720 --> 02:38:00,560 Speaker 1: and I think it's important thing to say, which is 2881 02:38:00,600 --> 02:38:06,520 Speaker 1: that regions mostly it's not that region's wage warning. Yeah, 2882 02:38:06,520 --> 02:38:11,080 Speaker 1: it's not. People don't do the fighting. Yeah, Like regions 2883 02:38:11,120 --> 02:38:14,200 Speaker 1: aren't the things that are fighting. It's the people in areas, 2884 02:38:14,240 --> 02:38:16,520 Speaker 1: and people can move around and people can block off 2885 02:38:16,520 --> 02:38:19,400 Speaker 1: access to areas, and like it's it's this, it's a 2886 02:38:19,480 --> 02:38:21,760 Speaker 1: weird it's a it's super a weird way to think 2887 02:38:21,800 --> 02:38:24,600 Speaker 1: about things. And it's the fact that if if this 2888 02:38:24,760 --> 02:38:28,880 Speaker 1: is something that like the Brooking Institution um is, if 2889 02:38:28,920 --> 02:38:31,440 Speaker 1: this is what they think on this topic, that's pretty 2890 02:38:31,480 --> 02:38:34,000 Speaker 1: sad indicator for what a lot of people how they 2891 02:38:34,720 --> 02:38:36,280 Speaker 1: how like a lot of mainstream levels are going to 2892 02:38:36,400 --> 02:38:38,920 Speaker 1: view the possibility of any type of civil conflict. And 2893 02:38:39,200 --> 02:38:42,840 Speaker 1: I don't know, maybe they feel very secure in their cities, um, 2894 02:38:43,680 --> 02:38:45,959 Speaker 1: which which is a weird thing. I've I've not felt 2895 02:38:46,000 --> 02:38:48,400 Speaker 1: that in years. Yeah. And I think the other thing 2896 02:38:48,440 --> 02:38:50,720 Speaker 1: that's very weird about this is that because so a 2897 02:38:50,800 --> 02:38:53,400 Speaker 1: lot of people writing about this are x are um 2898 02:38:53,600 --> 02:38:56,560 Speaker 1: like are like kind of terrorism people, right, and the 2899 02:38:56,640 --> 02:38:58,880 Speaker 1: kind of terrorism kind of resurgence people. It's weird because 2900 02:38:58,920 --> 02:39:01,520 Speaker 1: they used to understand it, like you know, like a 2901 02:39:01,600 --> 02:39:03,760 Speaker 1: lot of like you know, because like in in you know, 2902 02:39:03,879 --> 02:39:07,000 Speaker 1: in the twentieth century and even sort of early century, 2903 02:39:07,400 --> 02:39:10,480 Speaker 1: like the the sort of the sort of standard like 2904 02:39:10,600 --> 02:39:14,320 Speaker 1: grilla insurgency doctrine was, you know, it's some some some 2905 02:39:14,600 --> 02:39:19,760 Speaker 1: some variation on the like maoists fish in the sea, 2906 02:39:20,240 --> 02:39:23,280 Speaker 1: like surround the cities where we're like ural areas, etcetera, 2907 02:39:23,320 --> 02:39:26,199 Speaker 1: etcet etcetera, and like and you you even see versions 2908 02:39:26,240 --> 02:39:28,920 Speaker 1: of this, you know, in things that are quite civil 2909 02:39:28,959 --> 02:39:31,240 Speaker 1: wars but are kind of like what happened like the 2910 02:39:32,440 --> 02:39:34,200 Speaker 1: water and gas wars and Oblivi and there the three 2911 02:39:34,240 --> 02:39:37,240 Speaker 1: thousand's where like you know, what what what, Yeah, you 2912 02:39:37,720 --> 02:39:39,480 Speaker 1: have kind of an urban reyal divide with they have 2913 02:39:39,520 --> 02:39:41,600 Speaker 1: allies in the cities, but the sort of you know, 2914 02:39:41,959 --> 02:39:45,080 Speaker 1: like the you have a bunch of rural indigenous groups 2915 02:39:45,120 --> 02:39:47,920 Speaker 1: that literally just you know, they blockade every road in 2916 02:39:48,000 --> 02:39:50,120 Speaker 1: the country and then start off the cities out right. 2917 02:39:50,160 --> 02:39:51,200 Speaker 1: I mean, this is this is this is this is 2918 02:39:51,240 --> 02:39:54,760 Speaker 1: just a thing that happened in like five six It's 2919 02:39:54,800 --> 02:39:57,800 Speaker 1: just like yeah, that is like, yeah, that is that 2920 02:39:58,040 --> 02:40:00,720 Speaker 1: that is going to happen sooner than later, whether that 2921 02:40:00,840 --> 02:40:03,720 Speaker 1: be caused by accident, by some type of climate natural disaster, 2922 02:40:04,120 --> 02:40:07,160 Speaker 1: or on purpose by a militia like that, it's just 2923 02:40:07,320 --> 02:40:08,960 Speaker 1: a matter of time until we have to deal with 2924 02:40:09,080 --> 02:40:13,720 Speaker 1: this massive problem. Yeah. Um. And it's like I've been 2925 02:40:13,760 --> 02:40:17,119 Speaker 1: reading recently about um Uruguay and what happened with them, 2926 02:40:17,160 --> 02:40:20,200 Speaker 1: and like the seventies when their dictatorship took over and 2927 02:40:20,840 --> 02:40:23,320 Speaker 1: they had a left wing group that was like very 2928 02:40:23,400 --> 02:40:25,600 Speaker 1: much engaged in kind of a lot of acts of 2929 02:40:25,680 --> 02:40:29,359 Speaker 1: poetic terrorism, like you know, robbing banks to steal paperwork 2930 02:40:29,440 --> 02:40:31,440 Speaker 1: that they would then hand over to like somebody to 2931 02:40:31,959 --> 02:40:36,120 Speaker 1: reveal malfeasance within a company, or like stealing trucks of 2932 02:40:36,240 --> 02:40:39,320 Speaker 1: food going to like some big wealthy Christmas party and 2933 02:40:39,440 --> 02:40:42,600 Speaker 1: redistributing it in poor neighborhoods. Pretty rad stuff. And one 2934 02:40:42,680 --> 02:40:46,800 Speaker 1: of the ways in which the new incoming dictatorial regime 2935 02:40:46,879 --> 02:40:50,119 Speaker 1: cracked down to them as they deputized like ten thousand 2936 02:40:50,640 --> 02:40:53,080 Speaker 1: jud's and gave them guns and sent them in with 2937 02:40:53,200 --> 02:40:55,440 Speaker 1: the army. Um. And I was like, yeah, I could 2938 02:40:55,480 --> 02:40:58,800 Speaker 1: absolutely see ship could that happen? Yeah, Like if there 2939 02:40:58,879 --> 02:41:02,360 Speaker 1: was some sort of uprising in a in a liberal city. 2940 02:41:02,480 --> 02:41:07,400 Speaker 1: There's areas around them filled with chuds there and there 2941 02:41:07,520 --> 02:41:10,920 Speaker 1: is precedent. There is precedent for police doing that. Um, 2942 02:41:11,280 --> 02:41:14,320 Speaker 1: they have done it within your r I shot Garrison 2943 02:41:15,000 --> 02:41:19,000 Speaker 1: like on small scales. So I think we'll have one 2944 02:41:19,040 --> 02:41:22,400 Speaker 1: more break and come back and talk about a talk 2945 02:41:22,440 --> 02:41:25,600 Speaker 1: about a hedge fund. Oh funk I love hedge funds. 2946 02:41:25,680 --> 02:41:27,600 Speaker 1: Let me get Let me get my hedge funds. Shared 2947 02:41:27,640 --> 02:41:30,440 Speaker 1: out the shirt that I wear when talking about hedge funds. 2948 02:41:31,840 --> 02:41:34,560 Speaker 1: All right, I have my hedge found shirt on UM. 2949 02:41:35,560 --> 02:41:38,080 Speaker 1: As you can all see, it's a picture of Ringo 2950 02:41:38,280 --> 02:41:42,160 Speaker 1: star filating himself. I don't know why that's my hedge 2951 02:41:42,200 --> 02:41:45,440 Speaker 1: fund shirt. I don't I don't know either, but I 2952 02:41:45,520 --> 02:41:49,120 Speaker 1: love the beach boys. Um anyway, so thank you perfect 2953 02:41:49,320 --> 02:41:53,400 Speaker 1: nailed it. Uh we should we talk about this hedge 2954 02:41:53,400 --> 02:41:55,280 Speaker 1: fund guy? Yes? I do want to talk with the 2955 02:41:55,280 --> 02:41:59,440 Speaker 1: hedge fund guy because this is when something with this 2956 02:41:59,600 --> 02:42:03,400 Speaker 1: much money he is talking about this one just for fun, right, 2957 02:42:03,560 --> 02:42:06,200 Speaker 1: he's doing this just for ships for funds. Yeah, he's 2958 02:42:06,240 --> 02:42:08,480 Speaker 1: doing it for ships and giggles. And he wrote a 2959 02:42:08,560 --> 02:42:11,800 Speaker 1: book kind of on this topic and he proposed one 2960 02:42:12,280 --> 02:42:16,160 Speaker 1: one solution he came up with one thing that will 2961 02:42:16,200 --> 02:42:19,600 Speaker 1: prevent us from entering a civil war. Um, which shows 2962 02:42:19,680 --> 02:42:23,520 Speaker 1: how smart these hedge fund people are. Um. But first, uh, 2963 02:42:23,840 --> 02:42:26,560 Speaker 1: I Chris would love to I would love for you 2964 02:42:26,720 --> 02:42:30,280 Speaker 1: to explain who who this Who this dude is? Okay, 2965 02:42:30,360 --> 02:42:35,040 Speaker 1: So Rage Dahlio is a hedge fund manager and he 2966 02:42:35,440 --> 02:42:40,760 Speaker 1: is So he runs Bridge Bridgewater Associates one allegedly the 2967 02:42:40,840 --> 02:42:45,360 Speaker 1: world's largest hedge fund firm. Yeah, and it depends how 2968 02:42:45,400 --> 02:42:47,120 Speaker 1: you to find anything, but yeah, alleged it's a very 2969 02:42:47,200 --> 02:42:50,800 Speaker 1: large fund. And this guy, this guy is weird by 2970 02:42:50,920 --> 02:42:53,920 Speaker 1: like venture capital standards. So the Bridge Waters whole thing 2971 02:42:54,040 --> 02:42:56,680 Speaker 1: is that everyone in the company is constantly surveiled at 2972 02:42:56,680 --> 02:42:58,520 Speaker 1: all times, and anyone else in the company could look 2973 02:42:58,520 --> 02:43:00,520 Speaker 1: at when anyone else is doing. It's supposed to be 2974 02:43:00,600 --> 02:43:02,800 Speaker 1: like it's like total transparency, and what it actually means again, 2975 02:43:02,879 --> 02:43:04,760 Speaker 1: is it like you can you can look at, like 2976 02:43:05,320 --> 02:43:08,840 Speaker 1: fucking what any of your colleagues, like also working at 2977 02:43:08,879 --> 02:43:11,160 Speaker 1: this place, is doing, just sucking at their day job. 2978 02:43:11,240 --> 02:43:12,560 Speaker 1: You can see all their records, you can see everything 2979 02:43:12,600 --> 02:43:15,520 Speaker 1: they're looking at. And the other thing that he's known 2980 02:43:15,640 --> 02:43:18,000 Speaker 1: for is that he doesn't trust anyone else to like 2981 02:43:18,120 --> 02:43:19,920 Speaker 1: run the hedge fund after he retires. Your dies. So 2982 02:43:20,000 --> 02:43:22,400 Speaker 1: he's trying to build like like a cybernetic version of 2983 02:43:22,480 --> 02:43:25,200 Speaker 1: his brain to keep running the hedge funds. The like 2984 02:43:25,440 --> 02:43:28,720 Speaker 1: other hedge fund weirdos think this guy is fucking wild 2985 02:43:29,200 --> 02:43:32,160 Speaker 1: And yeah, he's he's a time and he runs one 2986 02:43:32,200 --> 02:43:35,760 Speaker 1: of the world's funds. It's great, it's we it's it's 2987 02:43:36,160 --> 02:43:38,200 Speaker 1: amazing and good we give these people this much money 2988 02:43:38,240 --> 02:43:40,880 Speaker 1: to control. So I will say, when it comes to 2989 02:43:41,000 --> 02:43:44,360 Speaker 1: his actual analysis of like whether or not it's likely, 2990 02:43:44,520 --> 02:43:50,080 Speaker 1: I don't particularly disagree with anything. Yes, I it's it's 2991 02:43:50,120 --> 02:43:55,600 Speaker 1: broadly reasonable. Yeah, his looking Yeah for what, he's just 2992 02:43:55,720 --> 02:43:57,280 Speaker 1: doing this because because he thinks it's fun. He has 2993 02:43:57,360 --> 02:44:00,600 Speaker 1: enough money he's gonna survive whatever. Um. But yeah, he's 2994 02:44:01,120 --> 02:44:03,640 Speaker 1: also I mean, part of why this is fairly credible 2995 02:44:03,760 --> 02:44:05,600 Speaker 1: is he's I mean, if you're if you're good at this, 2996 02:44:05,879 --> 02:44:08,280 Speaker 1: it means that you have one actual talent, which is 2997 02:44:08,520 --> 02:44:11,760 Speaker 1: is judging risk. Um. And I think he's probably pretty 2998 02:44:11,760 --> 02:44:14,360 Speaker 1: good at judging risk. Yeah, So he he he said 2999 02:44:14,400 --> 02:44:16,320 Speaker 1: that he believes there's like a high likely could that 3000 02:44:16,560 --> 02:44:19,000 Speaker 1: a civil war or something resembling it will break out 3001 02:44:19,040 --> 02:44:23,200 Speaker 1: within the decade. Um is the number he gives. He's 3002 02:44:23,240 --> 02:44:26,560 Speaker 1: the number he gives and then he, um, yeah, wait, 3003 02:44:26,640 --> 02:44:30,120 Speaker 1: let's see. Yeah he said there's also he have a 3004 02:44:30,160 --> 02:44:32,360 Speaker 1: quality says it's a we're we're in a we're in 3005 02:44:32,520 --> 02:44:36,960 Speaker 1: a high risk position right now. Um, and yeah. He 3006 02:44:37,080 --> 02:44:39,480 Speaker 1: he talks about the different kind of reasons why he 3007 02:44:39,600 --> 02:44:41,480 Speaker 1: believes so in this book, most of which are like 3008 02:44:42,200 --> 02:44:45,920 Speaker 1: pretty reasonable, um in terms of like uh in in 3009 02:44:46,040 --> 02:44:49,440 Speaker 1: terms of like looking at a population and how much 3010 02:44:49,879 --> 02:44:53,920 Speaker 1: how like you know, the various like polarization between politics 3011 02:44:54,080 --> 02:44:58,520 Speaker 1: and culture and all this kind of stuff. Um. But 3012 02:44:58,879 --> 02:45:03,360 Speaker 1: the solution that he gives to this is that, um, 3013 02:45:03,959 --> 02:45:07,560 Speaker 1: we should make a formal judgment for quote unquote close 3014 02:45:07,640 --> 02:45:11,480 Speaker 1: elections and have the losers respect the outcomes, and then 3015 02:45:11,560 --> 02:45:14,560 Speaker 1: once that happens, the order is going to be like 3016 02:45:15,120 --> 02:45:17,920 Speaker 1: restored and respected, and then we will avert a civil war. 3017 02:45:18,080 --> 02:45:21,320 Speaker 1: So he he thinks that a civil will will probably 3018 02:45:21,400 --> 02:45:25,240 Speaker 1: be like enacted by some type of election dispute, which 3019 02:45:25,360 --> 02:45:28,360 Speaker 1: that is actually very reasonable in terms of what happened 3020 02:45:28,640 --> 02:45:30,640 Speaker 1: in our last election. If there's like a big if 3021 02:45:30,640 --> 02:45:33,600 Speaker 1: there's big elections, that can absolutely spark some type of conflict. 3022 02:45:33,840 --> 02:45:36,680 Speaker 1: But the idea that we can avert a civil war 3023 02:45:37,160 --> 02:45:41,600 Speaker 1: by just having an organization to judge close elections is like, 3024 02:45:42,080 --> 02:45:46,080 Speaker 1: but that's not gonna solve Like, that's not gonna if 3025 02:45:46,120 --> 02:45:48,000 Speaker 1: you do that, that's not going to solve the close 3026 02:45:48,040 --> 02:45:51,000 Speaker 1: election problem. That doesn't even if you do it, that 3027 02:45:51,080 --> 02:45:55,240 Speaker 1: won't be a solution. You know, I will say, like, yeah, 3028 02:45:57,240 --> 02:46:01,720 Speaker 1: credit where minor credit is due. Raydalio is in fact 3029 02:46:01,920 --> 02:46:06,640 Speaker 1: right that the difference between two thousands, which is when 3030 02:46:06,680 --> 02:46:11,600 Speaker 1: the last time someone actually literally stolen election happened where yeah, 3031 02:46:11,800 --> 02:46:15,600 Speaker 1: but Bush Bush openly reads the election. It's incredibly obvious, 3032 02:46:16,360 --> 02:46:18,480 Speaker 1: like there there's like six ways he does this. Everyone 3033 02:46:18,560 --> 02:46:20,440 Speaker 1: knows what's happening. And the reaction is everyone just kind 3034 02:46:20,440 --> 02:46:22,600 Speaker 1: of shrugs because they're like, oh, this dream courts legitimate 3035 02:46:23,040 --> 02:46:28,800 Speaker 1: compared to both, which, yeah, that that's you know, that's 3036 02:46:28,879 --> 02:46:32,240 Speaker 1: that's that's there. There there's been an actual break there. 3037 02:46:32,360 --> 02:46:35,600 Speaker 1: It's just that I don't know, maybe I think it's 3038 02:46:35,640 --> 02:46:37,720 Speaker 1: it's almost just like a lip brained thing where it's 3039 02:46:37,760 --> 02:46:40,240 Speaker 1: like you think that if you have an institution that 3040 02:46:40,360 --> 02:46:43,840 Speaker 1: sets down rules this, this will make everything okay because 3041 02:46:43,879 --> 02:46:45,920 Speaker 1: everyone will obey it. And that's just not where we 3042 02:46:45,959 --> 02:46:48,760 Speaker 1: are anymore. Yeah, I mean there was just a poll 3043 02:46:48,840 --> 02:46:51,240 Speaker 1: that came out recently that should like Americans trust in 3044 02:46:51,280 --> 02:46:54,320 Speaker 1: the military has fallen to its lowest level ever registered, 3045 02:46:54,400 --> 02:46:56,760 Speaker 1: and like that was kind of the one thing left 3046 02:46:56,879 --> 02:47:00,520 Speaker 1: that most people felt positively about. Not to say that 3047 02:47:00,560 --> 02:47:03,720 Speaker 1: that's even a good thing, but just like the there 3048 02:47:03,840 --> 02:47:07,480 Speaker 1: is such a complete fucking lack of faith in institutions 3049 02:47:07,680 --> 02:47:10,720 Speaker 1: across the spectrum in the United States. But it's like, 3050 02:47:10,840 --> 02:47:15,600 Speaker 1: how unless you're hiring I don't know, um fucking no. 3051 02:47:15,720 --> 02:47:18,080 Speaker 1: I would say Tom Hanks, but Tom Hanks has even 3052 02:47:18,120 --> 02:47:22,760 Speaker 1: gotten politicized, even viruses. So yeah, there's no one they 3053 02:47:22,800 --> 02:47:25,200 Speaker 1: could pick to get do this job that people would 3054 02:47:25,240 --> 02:47:28,320 Speaker 1: feel good about if they Yeah, I mean, I'm sure 3055 02:47:28,360 --> 02:47:30,440 Speaker 1: if they brought Mr Rogers back from the dead, half 3056 02:47:30,480 --> 02:47:32,640 Speaker 1: the country would call him a cuck. So I don't 3057 02:47:32,680 --> 02:47:35,480 Speaker 1: I don't know what what, I don't know who Daio 3058 02:47:35,600 --> 02:47:39,840 Speaker 1: thinks is going to like get everybody on board. So 3059 02:47:40,560 --> 02:47:46,440 Speaker 1: maybe maybe, uh maybe, um, Danny DeVito, Danny DeVito might 3060 02:47:46,440 --> 02:47:49,680 Speaker 1: be able to do it. Well. I think if if 3061 02:47:49,760 --> 02:47:51,840 Speaker 1: we put all of our hope in Danny DeVito, that 3062 02:47:52,000 --> 02:47:55,160 Speaker 1: is a better solution than what any of these articles 3063 02:47:55,760 --> 02:47:59,720 Speaker 1: the Supreme Court. It beats it beats every other quote 3064 02:48:00,040 --> 02:48:05,360 Speaker 1: solution these articles. I mean Odin Kirk brought Twitter together 3065 02:48:05,480 --> 02:48:08,280 Speaker 1: that one week. Maybe yeah, yeah, you know with with 3066 02:48:08,560 --> 02:48:10,920 Speaker 1: the practice to your court. If you just picked twelve 3067 02:48:11,080 --> 02:48:17,039 Speaker 1: random people off the street, and we're like, that's that's 3068 02:48:17,040 --> 02:48:18,560 Speaker 1: the thing, it's like, I am, I am all for 3069 02:48:19,000 --> 02:48:22,560 Speaker 1: It's the term isn't the term isn't a democracy? Um, 3070 02:48:22,720 --> 02:48:27,080 Speaker 1: it's it's I forget the term yes of of almost 3071 02:48:27,160 --> 02:48:29,320 Speaker 1: I forget exactly. But it's when a government is not 3072 02:48:29,440 --> 02:48:32,720 Speaker 1: composed of elected leaders, composed of a random selected a 3073 02:48:32,840 --> 02:48:35,920 Speaker 1: random selection of people, and they made decisions and then 3074 02:48:35,959 --> 02:48:38,160 Speaker 1: their decisions over then we then we get a new selection. 3075 02:48:38,360 --> 02:48:41,920 Speaker 1: I'm all for that model of government over almost any other. 3076 02:48:42,240 --> 02:48:45,240 Speaker 1: It sounds way better than what we have. Yeah. Yeah, 3077 02:48:45,600 --> 02:48:48,120 Speaker 1: So that that is. That is the three pieces I 3078 02:48:48,160 --> 02:48:50,920 Speaker 1: want to talk about. The independent piece on the Hedge 3079 02:48:50,959 --> 02:48:53,640 Speaker 1: Fund of Brooking Institution, on the Civil War, and then uh, 3080 02:48:54,160 --> 02:48:58,440 Speaker 1: Brian went no, not not Brian, yes of Brian Michael 3081 02:48:58,520 --> 02:49:02,960 Speaker 1: jenkins Um, senior advisor to the President of rand Brime 3082 02:49:03,040 --> 02:49:07,520 Speaker 1: I j who who who wrote? Who? Who wrote the 3083 02:49:08,120 --> 02:49:10,640 Speaker 1: thing for NBC. So yeah, that is just the terms 3084 02:49:10,680 --> 02:49:13,720 Speaker 1: of in terms of you know, people in institutions talking 3085 02:49:13,720 --> 02:49:18,120 Speaker 1: about the topic more generally and sometimes decent ways, oftentimes 3086 02:49:18,200 --> 02:49:21,160 Speaker 1: not decent ways. That is, that is the stuff from 3087 02:49:21,280 --> 02:49:24,879 Speaker 1: like the just the past between the past week, two months, 3088 02:49:25,360 --> 02:49:30,600 Speaker 1: of people with big salaries talking about the Civil War, yeah, 3089 02:49:30,800 --> 02:49:32,680 Speaker 1: or in terms of the in terms of the hedge 3090 02:49:32,680 --> 02:49:35,800 Speaker 1: fun guy, not a salary, just billions of dollars, Yeah, 3091 02:49:35,879 --> 02:49:39,800 Speaker 1: just billions of dollars and thinking it's neat. Um, I 3092 02:49:39,879 --> 02:49:42,760 Speaker 1: don't know, you know, every time one of these comes out, 3093 02:49:42,879 --> 02:49:46,080 Speaker 1: I get tagged by a bunch of people, um, saying 3094 02:49:46,160 --> 02:49:48,879 Speaker 1: like Robbert is the thing you were talking about? Other 3095 02:49:48,959 --> 02:49:53,320 Speaker 1: people are talking about it, and um, I don't know, 3096 02:49:53,480 --> 02:49:56,039 Speaker 1: I don't like that this is the thing other people 3097 02:49:56,080 --> 02:49:58,279 Speaker 1: are talking about that I've been talking about as opposed 3098 02:49:58,320 --> 02:50:03,200 Speaker 1: to mass Zeppelin, transit or something more fun. Yeah, these 3099 02:50:03,240 --> 02:50:06,600 Speaker 1: people could dedicate the resource into something more manageable for them. 3100 02:50:06,959 --> 02:50:10,600 Speaker 1: And because they don't have a good grasp, especially the 3101 02:50:10,640 --> 02:50:12,880 Speaker 1: Brian Michaeljakins guy has and has no grasp on how 3102 02:50:13,040 --> 02:50:16,440 Speaker 1: extremism works. Um, And it would be better if they 3103 02:50:16,520 --> 02:50:18,920 Speaker 1: dedicate the resources to something else. But this is the 3104 02:50:19,000 --> 02:50:21,640 Speaker 1: world we live in. It would be better if perhaps 3105 02:50:22,000 --> 02:50:26,080 Speaker 1: Brian Michael Jenkins dedicated his his efforts and his platform 3106 02:50:26,120 --> 02:50:28,680 Speaker 1: at NBC to looking into Mr Dario and whatever the 3107 02:50:28,720 --> 02:50:31,760 Speaker 1: funk he's been up to. Um that might that might 3108 02:50:31,959 --> 02:50:35,720 Speaker 1: do more? Man, he just did plan them on. He 3109 02:50:35,720 --> 02:50:38,720 Speaker 1: would absolutely Brian Michael Jakins would get PanAm on so 3110 02:50:38,840 --> 02:50:45,600 Speaker 1: fucking quick. The panamanias motherfucker in journalism, just just like 3111 02:50:46,360 --> 02:50:49,680 Speaker 1: not even not even downtime before that car gets bombed 3112 02:50:51,160 --> 02:50:57,240 Speaker 1: as he's talking on air. The Okay, Brian Michael Jenkins 3113 02:50:57,440 --> 02:51:01,120 Speaker 1: is seventy nine years old, so oh it won't it 3114 02:51:01,120 --> 02:51:06,040 Speaker 1: wouldn't be hard. I just that that that's like a 3115 02:51:06,160 --> 02:51:09,320 Speaker 1: ten minute job. I'm just I'm just thinking like Brian 3116 02:51:09,360 --> 02:51:12,000 Speaker 1: Michael Jenkins, he's a quote unquote an American expert on 3117 02:51:12,080 --> 02:51:15,280 Speaker 1: terrorism and transportation security with four neckends of analysis. This 3118 02:51:15,440 --> 02:51:18,200 Speaker 1: is why he doesn't understand modern extremism. It's because, yeah, 3119 02:51:18,200 --> 02:51:20,800 Speaker 1: he's still thinking in the seventies mode. That's why sure, 3120 02:51:21,000 --> 02:51:25,240 Speaker 1: I'm sure of his thoughts on terrorism are just him 3121 02:51:25,320 --> 02:51:29,000 Speaker 1: rehashing opinions about like Hezbollah in the eighties. Yeah, all 3122 02:51:29,040 --> 02:51:31,920 Speaker 1: of all of his stuff is superdated. So that's that. 3123 02:51:32,120 --> 02:51:34,320 Speaker 1: That's why I I said that previously, is that he 3124 02:51:34,600 --> 02:51:36,360 Speaker 1: still views terrorism as like as it was in the 3125 02:51:36,400 --> 02:51:39,040 Speaker 1: seventies and yeah, this is this is why. Um so 3126 02:51:39,840 --> 02:51:43,640 Speaker 1: that's great, that's that's him. Um anyway, that wraps up 3127 02:51:43,680 --> 02:51:48,440 Speaker 1: our show. Um, yeah, watch out for the one. The 3128 02:51:48,480 --> 02:51:51,119 Speaker 1: one Brian Michael Jenkins prediction I do think will happen 3129 02:51:51,480 --> 02:51:53,280 Speaker 1: is that there's a decent chance we might be back 3130 02:51:53,360 --> 02:51:56,000 Speaker 1: in an assassination territory because it is but it has 3131 02:51:56,000 --> 02:51:58,760 Speaker 1: been a long time since that has happened. It's it's 3132 02:51:58,840 --> 02:52:01,720 Speaker 1: it has been a hot minute and definitely decrease in 3133 02:52:01,879 --> 02:52:06,240 Speaker 1: bowling leagues. It keeps happening in the UK. Yeah, I 3134 02:52:06,320 --> 02:52:09,560 Speaker 1: love was meaning specifically in in America and well, yeah, 3135 02:52:09,560 --> 02:52:13,080 Speaker 1: that's what I'm saying. We're We're not that far away 3136 02:52:13,120 --> 02:52:15,400 Speaker 1: from them in terms of like things happening, so that 3137 02:52:15,959 --> 02:52:18,360 Speaker 1: I'm kind of surprised it hasn't had. I think it's 3138 02:52:18,360 --> 02:52:23,040 Speaker 1: probably just because maybe American legislators are all much more 3139 02:52:23,160 --> 02:52:27,680 Speaker 1: concerned about assassination because guns, so people like our elected 3140 02:52:27,760 --> 02:52:30,360 Speaker 1: leaders take more precautions than British ones. Did I don't know. 3141 02:52:30,520 --> 02:52:34,880 Speaker 1: Maybe I don't know either. Well, speaking of assassinations, you 3142 02:52:34,959 --> 02:52:37,320 Speaker 1: can follow us on Twitter and Instagram. That happened here 3143 02:52:37,360 --> 02:52:40,680 Speaker 1: probably Coles on media. If we Go Missing it was 3144 02:52:40,720 --> 02:52:43,600 Speaker 1: great Dalo. If We Go Missing it was Ray Daldio. 3145 02:52:44,480 --> 02:53:03,520 Speaker 1: But could ye everybody welcome to could happen here? Talk podcast? YEP, 3146 02:53:03,640 --> 02:53:05,959 Speaker 1: I could say it a podcast. That's what we're doing, 3147 02:53:06,240 --> 02:53:08,880 Speaker 1: and it's about it's about how things are kind of 3148 02:53:09,320 --> 02:53:11,480 Speaker 1: kind of kind of falling apart sometimes, or at least 3149 02:53:11,480 --> 02:53:13,640 Speaker 1: it feels like it, and I don't know, maybe we 3150 02:53:13,720 --> 02:53:16,480 Speaker 1: can do some things to help make it better, like 3151 02:53:16,720 --> 02:53:20,760 Speaker 1: what happened recently in terms of forests. So, hey, a 3152 02:53:20,840 --> 02:53:26,800 Speaker 1: good news episode. Whoa rare rare rare episode drop for us? Uh, 3153 02:53:27,080 --> 02:53:29,600 Speaker 1: we got some good news. So I'm gonna be talking 3154 02:53:29,840 --> 02:53:32,840 Speaker 1: with Sam, who was on a previous episode discussing a 3155 02:53:32,920 --> 02:53:37,720 Speaker 1: forest defense, about an update on on all of the 3156 02:53:37,800 --> 02:53:40,720 Speaker 1: things that we were talking about a few weeks ago. Um, 3157 02:53:41,240 --> 02:53:42,959 Speaker 1: So yeah, I think we can. We can pretty much 3158 02:53:43,080 --> 02:53:44,840 Speaker 1: get into it and then then we'll talk about some 3159 02:53:44,879 --> 02:53:49,360 Speaker 1: other stuff around kind of forests in general. So Hello, Sam, 3160 02:53:49,480 --> 02:53:51,920 Speaker 1: Thank thank you for joining me again to talk about trees, 3161 02:53:52,200 --> 02:53:56,240 Speaker 1: one of one of our favorite topics. Hello, my pleasure always. 3162 02:53:57,240 --> 02:54:01,160 Speaker 1: So I think it was like a day or two 3163 02:54:01,280 --> 02:54:03,960 Speaker 1: after we dropped the episode or something, or I think 3164 02:54:04,000 --> 02:54:05,560 Speaker 1: I think it was. Actually it was maybe maybe even 3165 02:54:05,640 --> 02:54:08,680 Speaker 1: like right like right before Um, we got some extra 3166 02:54:08,879 --> 02:54:13,080 Speaker 1: extra news about all about the post about the postfire 3167 02:54:13,160 --> 02:54:18,760 Speaker 1: logging um near the bright Bush Watershed. Um, yeah what 3168 02:54:18,920 --> 02:54:23,040 Speaker 1: happened there? Yeah, yeah, it was pretty wild. Actually it 3169 02:54:23,200 --> 02:54:26,959 Speaker 1: was really serendipitous timing too. UM. We as I think 3170 02:54:27,000 --> 02:54:30,080 Speaker 1: we mentioned in the last podcast, we were awaiting the 3171 02:54:30,360 --> 02:54:34,440 Speaker 1: first hearing for the court case. Essentially, you know, we 3172 02:54:34,640 --> 02:54:36,840 Speaker 1: believed that the plan to log in that area for 3173 02:54:37,160 --> 02:54:41,520 Speaker 1: myriad reasons was not only unethical but also illegal. Um. 3174 02:54:41,600 --> 02:54:43,520 Speaker 1: And so it was going to court, and we were 3175 02:54:43,920 --> 02:54:48,320 Speaker 1: awaiting a hearing that happened on December three, Friday. And 3176 02:54:49,120 --> 02:54:51,400 Speaker 1: typically the judge does not rule from the bench in 3177 02:54:51,480 --> 02:54:53,480 Speaker 1: these sorts of hearings, and so we did not expect 3178 02:54:53,520 --> 02:54:56,560 Speaker 1: the decision on that day. UM. But sure enough, the 3179 02:54:56,680 --> 02:54:59,680 Speaker 1: judge felt h strongly enough about this case and sure 3180 02:54:59,760 --> 02:55:02,560 Speaker 1: enough about her decision that she did roll from the 3181 02:55:02,600 --> 02:55:06,280 Speaker 1: bench and rolled in our favor. And so yeah, victories. UM. 3182 02:55:06,440 --> 02:55:10,640 Speaker 1: Now we have um a preliminary injunction in place, meaning 3183 02:55:10,720 --> 02:55:13,640 Speaker 1: that no logging can happen there um at least until 3184 02:55:13,760 --> 02:55:16,760 Speaker 1: this uh timber sale has its real day in court. 3185 02:55:17,200 --> 02:55:20,640 Speaker 1: Or until the four Service just drops this Shenanigan entirely, 3186 02:55:20,720 --> 02:55:24,400 Speaker 1: which hopefully they will do, but we'll see. Yeah, so 3187 02:55:25,560 --> 02:55:28,840 Speaker 1: they they blocked, they blocked the posts far logging and 3188 02:55:29,120 --> 02:55:33,360 Speaker 1: the the the basically started start starting to clear cut 3189 02:55:33,400 --> 02:55:36,080 Speaker 1: these areas without without actual like public and put without 3190 02:55:36,080 --> 02:55:39,000 Speaker 1: actually going through the process as flawed as the process. 3191 02:55:39,040 --> 02:55:41,560 Speaker 1: Maybe they were just skipping it entirely. So that that 3192 02:55:41,840 --> 02:55:45,520 Speaker 1: was that was that was blocked by this by by 3193 02:55:45,560 --> 02:55:48,320 Speaker 1: this legal case. Um, what was I guess? Yeah, well 3194 02:55:48,360 --> 02:55:50,440 Speaker 1: what was what was the uh? What what was what? 3195 02:55:50,760 --> 02:55:52,880 Speaker 1: What was the reaction like in in in the room 3196 02:55:52,959 --> 02:55:59,840 Speaker 1: and in the various signal chats when this happened. Yeah, 3197 02:56:00,040 --> 02:56:03,920 Speaker 1: in the ether spheres, um, the reaction was super awesome. 3198 02:56:04,080 --> 02:56:07,560 Speaker 1: I mean, so many people love this place and that 3199 02:56:07,760 --> 02:56:09,879 Speaker 1: was kind of the whole point of what we were 3200 02:56:09,920 --> 02:56:12,560 Speaker 1: trying to do when we did the direct action out 3201 02:56:12,600 --> 02:56:15,320 Speaker 1: there a number of weeks ago. It was just demonstrate 3202 02:56:15,440 --> 02:56:17,920 Speaker 1: how many people love this place and how the Forest 3203 02:56:17,959 --> 02:56:20,400 Speaker 1: Service wasn't going to get away with what they're planning 3204 02:56:20,440 --> 02:56:23,560 Speaker 1: to do. Um, because people, as we promised, would be 3205 02:56:23,680 --> 02:56:25,960 Speaker 1: back if they tried to log it and move forward 3206 02:56:25,959 --> 02:56:28,080 Speaker 1: without logging, which as you pointed out, and as we 3207 02:56:28,160 --> 02:56:31,040 Speaker 1: said last time, was super sketchy, not only because it 3208 02:56:31,200 --> 02:56:33,840 Speaker 1: was a terrible plan that they're planning to do um 3209 02:56:33,920 --> 02:56:35,600 Speaker 1: in this beloved for us, but also because it was 3210 02:56:35,680 --> 02:56:38,959 Speaker 1: behind locked gates that in the public wasn't allowed into 3211 02:56:39,160 --> 02:56:42,040 Speaker 1: and so um, it was just this you know, travesty 3212 02:56:42,160 --> 02:56:44,800 Speaker 1: that was about to happen. And when we found out um, 3213 02:56:44,879 --> 02:56:48,480 Speaker 1: and when we heard the judges incredibly strong ruling, UM, 3214 02:56:49,520 --> 02:56:53,200 Speaker 1: we you know, were absolutely overjoyed. Um. The news spread, 3215 02:56:53,360 --> 02:56:56,520 Speaker 1: you know, like wildfire, excuse the pun it how to 3216 02:56:56,600 --> 02:57:00,120 Speaker 1: do it? Um, and just you know, all this the 3217 02:57:00,240 --> 02:57:02,960 Speaker 1: threads were popping, People were putting it on Twitter, people 3218 02:57:03,040 --> 02:57:06,040 Speaker 1: were reposting the sexy photos of the blockade with the 3219 02:57:06,120 --> 02:57:08,440 Speaker 1: giant slash pile and the fire truck and the band 3220 02:57:08,520 --> 02:57:10,960 Speaker 1: on top of the fire truck. And I just wish 3221 02:57:11,040 --> 02:57:13,119 Speaker 1: that we all could have hung out again and had 3222 02:57:13,120 --> 02:57:15,840 Speaker 1: another dance party because it was the best that doesn't 3223 02:57:15,840 --> 02:57:21,680 Speaker 1: incredibly incredibly rad UM was was like your this is 3224 02:57:21,760 --> 02:57:23,280 Speaker 1: this is this is something I don't I don't don't 3225 02:57:23,320 --> 02:57:25,480 Speaker 1: actually know, but I was like it was like the 3226 02:57:25,560 --> 02:57:28,440 Speaker 1: documentation that was taking place by by going to these 3227 02:57:28,480 --> 02:57:30,840 Speaker 1: places and showing hey, this is where they're cutting. Was 3228 02:57:30,959 --> 02:57:33,800 Speaker 1: that brought up in the court case in terms of like, hey, 3229 02:57:34,000 --> 02:57:37,480 Speaker 1: this is we actually went and saw what's actually happening. 3230 02:57:37,560 --> 02:57:39,720 Speaker 1: So it was was that type of evidence used and 3231 02:57:39,800 --> 02:57:43,920 Speaker 1: did it in your mind like um um uh kind 3232 02:57:43,920 --> 02:57:46,840 Speaker 1: of be a small part of like the result of 3233 02:57:47,160 --> 02:57:50,680 Speaker 1: the ruling. Yeah, it definitely was. And that is such 3234 02:57:50,680 --> 02:57:52,800 Speaker 1: an important point and I really hope that everyone who's 3235 02:57:52,840 --> 02:57:55,400 Speaker 1: listening can just like put that in their minds for later. 3236 02:57:55,560 --> 02:57:58,480 Speaker 1: How important it is for people to be UM field 3237 02:57:58,560 --> 02:58:01,600 Speaker 1: surveying or sometimes we call it ground truth thing um 3238 02:58:01,920 --> 02:58:06,800 Speaker 1: these places and actually collecting documentation photographic evidence. UM. A 3239 02:58:06,840 --> 02:58:08,840 Speaker 1: lot of folks do kind of like what we call 3240 02:58:08,920 --> 02:58:13,000 Speaker 1: community surveying and collect um some site specific um kind 3241 02:58:13,040 --> 02:58:16,320 Speaker 1: of like uh, community science sort of stuff. But all 3242 02:58:16,360 --> 02:58:18,600 Speaker 1: of that was used in court and it was super awesome. UM. 3243 02:58:18,640 --> 02:58:20,760 Speaker 1: I actually was one of the standing declarence, so I 3244 02:58:20,840 --> 02:58:23,360 Speaker 1: got to submit a lot of evidence from my many 3245 02:58:23,480 --> 02:58:27,120 Speaker 1: years of traveling that place. UM, and that all of 3246 02:58:27,160 --> 02:58:30,240 Speaker 1: that was referenced in court. So so so important. UM. 3247 02:58:30,480 --> 02:58:34,200 Speaker 1: Even you know, when the forest services essentially trying to 3248 02:58:34,520 --> 02:58:36,880 Speaker 1: kick everyone out and keep everyone out of these places, 3249 02:58:37,040 --> 02:58:40,800 Speaker 1: it's really important to go um and see them anyways. Obviously, 3250 02:58:41,000 --> 02:58:43,600 Speaker 1: you know, everyone needs to consider how they do that 3251 02:58:43,800 --> 02:58:47,560 Speaker 1: and their own security and safety. Um. And it's becoming difficult. Um. 3252 02:58:47,760 --> 02:58:51,280 Speaker 1: But certainly putting eyes on threatened places is one of 3253 02:58:51,320 --> 02:58:54,160 Speaker 1: the best tools we have to save them. Yeah. I 3254 02:58:54,240 --> 02:58:58,280 Speaker 1: just think that's really important to really focus on that 3255 02:58:58,400 --> 02:59:01,440 Speaker 1: as like a thing because like, yeah, stuff that people 3256 02:59:01,560 --> 02:59:07,000 Speaker 1: did actually had an impact on this not happening right now. Um. 3257 02:59:07,480 --> 02:59:10,520 Speaker 1: And yeah, but by going out there and documenting and 3258 02:59:10,680 --> 02:59:13,520 Speaker 1: then talking about it, um, it has like an actual 3259 02:59:13,760 --> 02:59:19,240 Speaker 1: like causal relation, which is very hard to It's it's 3260 02:59:19,280 --> 02:59:22,840 Speaker 1: it's hard to get direct causal stuff to happen in 3261 02:59:23,000 --> 02:59:26,600 Speaker 1: like the general umbrella of activism. Um. And it's I 3262 02:59:26,640 --> 02:59:31,160 Speaker 1: think it's it's just really exciting that that that this happened. Yeah, 3263 02:59:31,400 --> 02:59:34,800 Speaker 1: that's so true. It does feel in the general umbrellaive 3264 02:59:34,800 --> 02:59:36,800 Speaker 1: activism really hard to point to things that we do 3265 02:59:36,920 --> 02:59:39,720 Speaker 1: that are actually making an effect, and this is totally 3266 02:59:39,800 --> 02:59:42,800 Speaker 1: one of them. I mean, when if and when this 3267 02:59:42,959 --> 02:59:46,880 Speaker 1: case does have its day in court, um, you know, 3268 02:59:46,959 --> 02:59:50,680 Speaker 1: outside of the preliminary injunction itself. UM, I am sure 3269 02:59:50,840 --> 02:59:53,160 Speaker 1: that so much of that evidence from all the folks 3270 02:59:53,160 --> 02:59:55,800 Speaker 1: who've been traveling there um and documenting it will be used. 3271 02:59:55,840 --> 02:59:59,120 Speaker 1: We documented, you know, so many green living trees and 3272 02:59:59,200 --> 03:00:02,640 Speaker 1: places before service that were dead, um, you know, so 3273 03:00:02,800 --> 03:00:06,120 Speaker 1: many like unused roads in places the Forest Service said 3274 03:00:06,160 --> 03:00:08,360 Speaker 1: they needed to log alongside these roads because they're so 3275 03:00:08,520 --> 03:00:11,480 Speaker 1: trafficed and they're posing a safety hazard. And so it's 3276 03:00:11,480 --> 03:00:15,120 Speaker 1: basically like, you know, the best way to expose their 3277 03:00:15,600 --> 03:00:20,040 Speaker 1: gas lighting and lies is to just go document what's there. Yeah, 3278 03:00:20,040 --> 03:00:22,040 Speaker 1: because a big part of their ability to do this 3279 03:00:22,440 --> 03:00:26,040 Speaker 1: is utilizing deception in terms of like and and and 3280 03:00:26,520 --> 03:00:30,160 Speaker 1: utilizing like non information, Like they're just not talking about 3281 03:00:30,240 --> 03:00:32,960 Speaker 1: the stuff that's actually happening, or they're doing like white 3282 03:00:33,040 --> 03:00:35,480 Speaker 1: lies to make it sound better. So they're just they're 3283 03:00:35,480 --> 03:00:38,040 Speaker 1: they're lying about the type of like um uh, the 3284 03:00:38,120 --> 03:00:41,160 Speaker 1: type of sales that they're doing with these with these treets, 3285 03:00:41,160 --> 03:00:43,840 Speaker 1: and like how they're classifying the trees that they're logging 3286 03:00:43,879 --> 03:00:46,440 Speaker 1: to like get it past all of the loopholes. But 3287 03:00:46,560 --> 03:00:49,840 Speaker 1: they're not actually like that, that's not actually reality. They're 3288 03:00:49,879 --> 03:00:53,080 Speaker 1: just changing the terms to make it fit what they want. 3289 03:00:53,440 --> 03:00:55,280 Speaker 1: So like, as as soon as you start looking into 3290 03:00:55,280 --> 03:00:57,760 Speaker 1: this stuff, it gets all it gets very sketchy, because 3291 03:00:58,120 --> 03:01:01,119 Speaker 1: it is they're just about a lot of this stuff. 3292 03:01:01,200 --> 03:01:04,040 Speaker 1: Like if you're like listening and be like, oh, you know, 3293 03:01:04,360 --> 03:01:06,520 Speaker 1: be these people just love trees, Like, yes, we do 3294 03:01:06,680 --> 03:01:08,800 Speaker 1: love trees, but like the actual thing that's going on 3295 03:01:09,080 --> 03:01:11,440 Speaker 1: is like they're lying about the types of damage that's 3296 03:01:11,480 --> 03:01:13,840 Speaker 1: being done. They're lying about what areas this is happening 3297 03:01:13,879 --> 03:01:16,760 Speaker 1: in all to just rack up more timber sales like 3298 03:01:16,800 --> 03:01:19,800 Speaker 1: that that that is that that that is what's actually happening. Um. 3299 03:01:20,080 --> 03:01:23,360 Speaker 1: And that's so so important to say, like loudly and clearly, 3300 03:01:23,440 --> 03:01:28,160 Speaker 1: because the Forest Service and other management agencies are experts 3301 03:01:28,280 --> 03:01:32,320 Speaker 1: in making the public feel dumb and wrong and misinformed. 3302 03:01:32,400 --> 03:01:34,760 Speaker 1: And right now, even we sound a little wing nutty 3303 03:01:34,840 --> 03:01:39,879 Speaker 1: being like yeah, you know, but like let us be clear, 3304 03:01:40,120 --> 03:01:44,360 Speaker 1: a federal judge agrees with us. Yeah you know, like 3305 03:01:44,560 --> 03:01:47,000 Speaker 1: we're not the ones who are wrong here, and I 3306 03:01:47,080 --> 03:01:49,400 Speaker 1: think you're totally right. You know, they're using a mixture 3307 03:01:49,560 --> 03:01:54,080 Speaker 1: of blatant lies, um, but also euphemisms like we no 3308 03:01:54,200 --> 03:01:56,640 Speaker 1: one's they don't they don't use the word clear cut anymore. 3309 03:01:56,879 --> 03:01:59,879 Speaker 1: They're using all of these euphemisms, you know, regeneration, hard, 3310 03:02:02,320 --> 03:02:03,880 Speaker 1: a lot of and a lot of this stuff that 3311 03:02:03,879 --> 03:02:06,600 Speaker 1: they're deciding to do is like not open to the public. 3312 03:02:06,640 --> 03:02:08,680 Speaker 1: You need to do like fullial requests to to to 3313 03:02:08,879 --> 03:02:11,760 Speaker 1: actually learn what they're doing because they don't talk about 3314 03:02:11,800 --> 03:02:14,560 Speaker 1: it like that. It is all. It is all extremely sketchy. 3315 03:02:14,640 --> 03:02:17,120 Speaker 1: And yeah, like the fact that like a federal a 3316 03:02:17,200 --> 03:02:21,040 Speaker 1: federal judge agreed with like green activists is not a 3317 03:02:21,160 --> 03:02:24,800 Speaker 1: sentence you here often so like it's like, yeah, this 3318 03:02:24,959 --> 03:02:27,120 Speaker 1: is actually a thing, and it's it's important to remember, 3319 03:02:27,200 --> 03:02:30,360 Speaker 1: like you are not immune to propaganda, like all a 3320 03:02:30,440 --> 03:02:34,240 Speaker 1: lot of this stuff is uh is has people who 3321 03:02:34,640 --> 03:02:36,680 Speaker 1: want a lot of money are vested in making people 3322 03:02:36,760 --> 03:02:39,800 Speaker 1: believe things about about about about like force management all 3323 03:02:39,840 --> 03:02:42,560 Speaker 1: this kind of stuff. Um, yeah, I know it may 3324 03:02:42,640 --> 03:02:44,720 Speaker 1: it may sound crazy when we're talking about you know, 3325 03:02:45,040 --> 03:02:48,320 Speaker 1: the secret Illuminati of the Force Service. But like no, 3326 03:02:48,520 --> 03:02:50,640 Speaker 1: like it acts like it's it is a it is 3327 03:02:50,680 --> 03:02:54,279 Speaker 1: a governmental organization. All governmental organizations are kind of sketchy, 3328 03:02:54,680 --> 03:02:57,240 Speaker 1: especially when their sole purpose is to one of their 3329 03:02:57,240 --> 03:02:59,480 Speaker 1: purposes is to make money or assistant like sales of 3330 03:02:59,600 --> 03:03:02,160 Speaker 1: something like yeah, it's it's gonna have some sketchy stuff. 3331 03:03:02,680 --> 03:03:05,960 Speaker 1: Um absolutely, And also you know in the realm of 3332 03:03:06,160 --> 03:03:09,160 Speaker 1: just like the propaganda machine, Um, we you know just 3333 03:03:09,280 --> 03:03:13,320 Speaker 1: the other day, UM, a hilarious response piece UM came 3334 03:03:13,360 --> 03:03:16,600 Speaker 1: out from the timber industry, an organization called Federal Forest 3335 03:03:16,680 --> 03:03:20,760 Speaker 1: Resource Coalition, which is just a coalition of loggers. UM 3336 03:03:20,879 --> 03:03:24,680 Speaker 1: put out this hilarious little mini video responding directly to 3337 03:03:24,840 --> 03:03:27,040 Speaker 1: the line that we've been using in forest events, which 3338 03:03:27,080 --> 03:03:29,560 Speaker 1: is worth more standing. Our forests are worth more standing. 3339 03:03:29,920 --> 03:03:32,640 Speaker 1: And they put out a hilarious response that is essentially 3340 03:03:32,720 --> 03:03:37,000 Speaker 1: you know, pushing this timber slu this logging propaganda, saying well, actually, 3341 03:03:37,400 --> 03:03:40,400 Speaker 1: our forests aren't worth anything standing after they've been burned, 3342 03:03:40,440 --> 03:03:44,160 Speaker 1: and they're contributing to the climate crisis, and they're destructive, 3343 03:03:44,240 --> 03:03:46,800 Speaker 1: you know, and all these things, and so totally I mean, 3344 03:03:47,120 --> 03:03:49,720 Speaker 1: even people who see it with their eyes can be 3345 03:03:49,840 --> 03:03:54,320 Speaker 1: convinced by these voices that they're wrong because they're so good, 3346 03:03:54,879 --> 03:03:57,400 Speaker 1: so good at making us feel just like we're the 3347 03:03:57,480 --> 03:04:00,720 Speaker 1: wrong ones, but we're not. We got this, yeah, in 3348 03:04:00,879 --> 03:04:03,320 Speaker 1: terms of like this the secretive kind of decision making 3349 03:04:03,440 --> 03:04:05,720 Speaker 1: and stuff behind the scenes, In terms of like the 3350 03:04:06,000 --> 03:04:09,240 Speaker 1: types of like terms they are using too to you know, 3351 03:04:09,400 --> 03:04:13,400 Speaker 1: do like restoration, thinning, um and all this stuff around 3352 03:04:13,800 --> 03:04:16,080 Speaker 1: around trying to like basically just just take as many 3353 03:04:16,120 --> 03:04:19,080 Speaker 1: trees from the Bright British Watershed as they can, and 3354 03:04:19,480 --> 03:04:25,080 Speaker 1: the judge said that she was quote disappointed in the agency, 3355 03:04:25,800 --> 03:04:30,560 Speaker 1: uh for for all of their silly behind the scenes 3356 03:04:31,000 --> 03:04:33,959 Speaker 1: trench coat meat in the dark alley way to pass 3357 03:04:34,000 --> 03:04:37,680 Speaker 1: off information type of thing, um, which is yeah, like 3358 03:04:37,879 --> 03:04:40,000 Speaker 1: so what what what is what is some of the 3359 03:04:40,040 --> 03:04:44,080 Speaker 1: other kind of um stuff that the four Service and 3360 03:04:44,240 --> 03:04:47,360 Speaker 1: the related organizations were trying to We're trying to hide 3361 03:04:47,400 --> 03:04:49,080 Speaker 1: like what like what what? What? What? What? What was 3362 03:04:49,160 --> 03:04:52,080 Speaker 1: the stuff that like came out um via this legal 3363 03:04:52,160 --> 03:04:53,960 Speaker 1: process that was like, yeah, what was it? What was it? 3364 03:04:54,040 --> 03:04:55,920 Speaker 1: What was a few of the actual things that they 3365 03:04:55,959 --> 03:04:59,040 Speaker 1: were that they were trying to do that eventually like 3366 03:04:59,680 --> 03:05:03,200 Speaker 1: came to light mm hmm. The major thing is that 3367 03:05:03,480 --> 03:05:07,120 Speaker 1: they were trying to get away with changing the logging 3368 03:05:07,200 --> 03:05:13,080 Speaker 1: contracts without doing any additional environmental analysis or public engagement process. 3369 03:05:13,480 --> 03:05:17,400 Speaker 1: And so there were before fires, there were there was 3370 03:05:17,440 --> 03:05:20,000 Speaker 1: a plan to do what they what we had fought 3371 03:05:20,080 --> 03:05:23,040 Speaker 1: them so hard to get them to agree to do, 3372 03:05:23,440 --> 03:05:26,520 Speaker 1: which was not log a bunch of these this older 3373 03:05:26,640 --> 03:05:29,840 Speaker 1: stands protect tree. They had a diameter limit on trees 3374 03:05:29,920 --> 03:05:31,480 Speaker 1: that they were going to log. So we basically like 3375 03:05:31,600 --> 03:05:34,560 Speaker 1: slapped their hands off of all of these trees and 3376 03:05:34,720 --> 03:05:37,360 Speaker 1: finally were like, okay, we won't sue you if you 3377 03:05:37,440 --> 03:05:40,040 Speaker 1: move forward with the plan as stated, and it had 3378 03:05:40,280 --> 03:05:44,039 Speaker 1: very strong sideboards, and you know, even local folks were like, okay, 3379 03:05:44,280 --> 03:05:46,600 Speaker 1: go do this. And then the fires came through and 3380 03:05:46,680 --> 03:05:48,600 Speaker 1: so what they were trying to do was just change 3381 03:05:48,640 --> 03:05:51,000 Speaker 1: the plans. They turned it all into clear cuts in 3382 03:05:51,160 --> 03:05:53,600 Speaker 1: the forest that we slapped their hands off of. And 3383 03:05:53,680 --> 03:05:55,680 Speaker 1: they were trying to argue that they didn't need to 3384 03:05:55,720 --> 03:05:58,680 Speaker 1: do any an additional analysis and they didn't need to 3385 03:05:58,760 --> 03:06:01,560 Speaker 1: engage the public, and even in court, you know, that's 3386 03:06:01,600 --> 03:06:03,880 Speaker 1: what they were arguing. Um. They were they were doing 3387 03:06:04,040 --> 03:06:08,160 Speaker 1: some stupid magic math and you know, somersaults, um to 3388 03:06:08,320 --> 03:06:11,760 Speaker 1: try and explain how they had already done an analysis 3389 03:06:12,440 --> 03:06:15,240 Speaker 1: that accounted somehow for the fires that no one could 3390 03:06:15,280 --> 03:06:19,800 Speaker 1: have ever predicted. A. Yeah. So the judge was like 3391 03:06:20,600 --> 03:06:23,400 Speaker 1: just you know, she was just roundly like, y'all couldn't 3392 03:06:23,400 --> 03:06:25,760 Speaker 1: have predicted I like to give her, you know, Southern accident. 3393 03:06:25,959 --> 03:06:30,080 Speaker 1: Y'all couldn't have predicted, Judge Akinstone the South. No, Uh, 3394 03:06:30,320 --> 03:06:33,440 Speaker 1: you couldn't have predicted. Uh, you know that the fires 3395 03:06:33,480 --> 03:06:35,680 Speaker 1: were going to burn through and so there's no way 3396 03:06:35,760 --> 03:06:38,039 Speaker 1: you could have done analysis for fire that you didn't 3397 03:06:38,040 --> 03:06:40,119 Speaker 1: know what was going to happen here us silly little beasts. 3398 03:06:40,320 --> 03:06:42,560 Speaker 1: But she did talk to them, you know, as if 3399 03:06:42,640 --> 03:06:45,800 Speaker 1: they were just naughty little children, which I loved to hear. 3400 03:06:45,920 --> 03:06:48,560 Speaker 1: You know, the disappointed in the Forest Service was a 3401 03:06:48,680 --> 03:06:50,640 Speaker 1: major move. And I think the other one that came 3402 03:06:50,720 --> 03:06:53,400 Speaker 1: up is just you know, the Forest Service was arguing 3403 03:06:53,520 --> 03:06:56,800 Speaker 1: that they needed quote need to do this logging um 3404 03:06:57,200 --> 03:07:01,800 Speaker 1: for restoration, for economic recovery, um, and to prevent future 3405 03:07:01,879 --> 03:07:05,480 Speaker 1: wildfires from severely burning in the area. All of that too. 3406 03:07:05,879 --> 03:07:08,400 Speaker 1: BS Like, one thing that the judge said that was 3407 03:07:08,480 --> 03:07:12,840 Speaker 1: super strong, UM was that she sees and obviously on 3408 03:07:12,959 --> 03:07:17,000 Speaker 1: paraphrasing here um, but she she sees that the community 3409 03:07:17,400 --> 03:07:20,160 Speaker 1: loves this place. It's obvious that this is like a 3410 03:07:20,280 --> 03:07:23,920 Speaker 1: beloved place, and she, you know, essentially understands that the 3411 03:07:23,959 --> 03:07:26,080 Speaker 1: forest is worth more standing. She said that she wanted 3412 03:07:26,200 --> 03:07:28,880 Speaker 1: she thinks that the forest needs an opportunity to recover 3413 03:07:29,080 --> 03:07:32,199 Speaker 1: from the fires, and so basically just called the BS 3414 03:07:32,280 --> 03:07:35,600 Speaker 1: on the Forest Service for their hilarious you know, justifications 3415 03:07:35,640 --> 03:07:38,879 Speaker 1: for logging all the we're gonna save the forest by logging. 3416 03:07:38,959 --> 03:07:41,640 Speaker 1: It is just not it's not right, it's not accurate. 3417 03:07:41,680 --> 03:07:46,920 Speaker 1: In the judge agrees. Yeah, I'm very very excited about 3418 03:07:46,959 --> 03:07:49,240 Speaker 1: about this ruling and what it means for the future 3419 03:07:49,360 --> 03:07:51,920 Speaker 1: and at least at least at least postponing this until 3420 03:07:52,240 --> 03:07:54,720 Speaker 1: um if if if the if if the lawsuits going 3421 03:07:55,040 --> 03:07:56,480 Speaker 1: to go through, or if or if they're just going 3422 03:07:56,520 --> 03:07:59,440 Speaker 1: to drop this, which they also very well, maybe they 3423 03:07:59,520 --> 03:08:01,920 Speaker 1: might decide to focus on another part that is that 3424 03:08:01,959 --> 03:08:04,400 Speaker 1: they just don't tell anybody about and start doing it 3425 03:08:04,480 --> 03:08:06,600 Speaker 1: there and then you know, we'll we'll start we'll start 3426 03:08:06,640 --> 03:08:09,640 Speaker 1: this again. But for this particular area, UM. That is 3427 03:08:09,800 --> 03:08:12,320 Speaker 1: that is very exciting, and yeah, it is. It is 3428 03:08:12,440 --> 03:08:15,440 Speaker 1: rare for a federal judge to agree with people on 3429 03:08:15,560 --> 03:08:18,600 Speaker 1: this topic. UM. And now I want want to talk 3430 03:08:18,600 --> 03:08:21,640 Speaker 1: about a few other kind of stuff around like forests, 3431 03:08:22,400 --> 03:08:24,480 Speaker 1: um and how and how these kind of types of 3432 03:08:24,560 --> 03:08:27,640 Speaker 1: things work. I I didn't get an interesting comment which 3433 03:08:27,680 --> 03:08:30,680 Speaker 1: I totally agree with in terms of like how propaganda 3434 03:08:30,720 --> 03:08:34,280 Speaker 1: works in this department, um, and how like how like 3435 03:08:34,440 --> 03:08:37,520 Speaker 1: logging towns operate, or how like towns became logging towns, 3436 03:08:37,720 --> 03:08:40,880 Speaker 1: how like they're basically able to convince local populations that 3437 03:08:41,320 --> 03:08:44,120 Speaker 1: logging is is like good because like yeah, like they're 3438 03:08:44,120 --> 03:08:46,000 Speaker 1: they're gonna they're gonna move into this town. They're gonna 3439 03:08:46,040 --> 03:08:48,920 Speaker 1: restore the town because they're gonna bring in new money 3440 03:08:49,040 --> 03:08:51,880 Speaker 1: through like logging industry. Um, and yeah, this is a 3441 03:08:52,040 --> 03:08:54,800 Speaker 1: very like, very like a typical move, whether it be 3442 03:08:54,920 --> 03:08:57,760 Speaker 1: for like you know, coal mining, whether it be for pipelines. 3443 03:08:57,879 --> 03:09:00,440 Speaker 1: In terms of like big companies going into all towns 3444 03:09:00,440 --> 03:09:02,480 Speaker 1: and be like, hey, we can promise you economic growth 3445 03:09:02,879 --> 03:09:06,039 Speaker 1: if you can like assist in this you know, extract 3446 03:09:06,120 --> 03:09:08,480 Speaker 1: of process, and they'll be able to convince them with 3447 03:09:08,600 --> 03:09:11,400 Speaker 1: you know, misleading statistics and you know all that kind 3448 03:09:11,440 --> 03:09:14,240 Speaker 1: of stuff. In terms of logging industry is getting getting 3449 03:09:14,480 --> 03:09:19,440 Speaker 1: really good at radicalizing rule populations to have them believe 3450 03:09:20,040 --> 03:09:23,560 Speaker 1: that it's one not it's it's not like economically destructive 3451 03:09:23,920 --> 03:09:26,320 Speaker 1: to take down trees. They might even say it's like good, 3452 03:09:26,879 --> 03:09:30,120 Speaker 1: um and all all that kind of stuff has have 3453 03:09:30,720 --> 03:09:33,600 Speaker 1: Has there been like any outreach in terms of kind 3454 03:09:33,600 --> 03:09:38,080 Speaker 1: of addressing addressing people in small towns who like maybe 3455 03:09:38,240 --> 03:09:41,000 Speaker 1: used to like you know, rely on unlogging or something 3456 03:09:41,280 --> 03:09:42,840 Speaker 1: and how does how does that works? I know, like 3457 03:09:42,879 --> 03:09:45,400 Speaker 1: they'll be like, oh, but you people come from the 3458 03:09:45,440 --> 03:09:47,080 Speaker 1: city and now you're coming out here into like the 3459 03:09:47,120 --> 03:09:49,360 Speaker 1: woods where I live, and I think it's good that 3460 03:09:49,440 --> 03:09:52,040 Speaker 1: they're chopping down these trees. Right there's there's there's there's 3461 03:09:52,080 --> 03:09:54,920 Speaker 1: like that kind of that that kind of disconnection because again, 3462 03:09:55,160 --> 03:09:57,280 Speaker 1: no one, no one's immune to propaganda. You can you 3463 03:09:57,360 --> 03:10:00,880 Speaker 1: just you just just have to find the specific one. Um. See. 3464 03:10:00,879 --> 03:10:03,039 Speaker 1: I'm just curious about, like in terms of in terms 3465 03:10:03,080 --> 03:10:05,160 Speaker 1: of like forest defense, how often this comes up and 3466 03:10:05,280 --> 03:10:08,360 Speaker 1: how and how you kind of yeah, I don't know 3467 03:10:08,720 --> 03:10:10,800 Speaker 1: what's what steps to make to to be like to 3468 03:10:10,920 --> 03:10:15,320 Speaker 1: tell people, hey, maybe you're believe these things because timber 3469 03:10:15,400 --> 03:10:18,600 Speaker 1: industries told you them, Like how how how do you 3470 03:10:18,640 --> 03:10:22,360 Speaker 1: start that conversation with people? Yeah, this is like actually 3471 03:10:22,840 --> 03:10:27,560 Speaker 1: the heart of the forest defense work ahead, what you're 3472 03:10:27,600 --> 03:10:30,360 Speaker 1: talking about right now, the heart of our work ahead. Um. 3473 03:10:30,520 --> 03:10:34,280 Speaker 1: And I would also say, you know, there's a there's certainly, 3474 03:10:34,840 --> 03:10:39,640 Speaker 1: um a dichotomy that the media especially likes to present 3475 03:10:39,760 --> 03:10:45,120 Speaker 1: between the rural logging communities and you know, Portland or 3476 03:10:45,160 --> 03:10:49,000 Speaker 1: city based environmentalists and the hippie environmentalists to come in 3477 03:10:49,200 --> 03:10:52,000 Speaker 1: and yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, And everyone's familiar with 3478 03:10:52,080 --> 03:10:54,520 Speaker 1: that and there's of course some truth um to that, 3479 03:10:54,680 --> 03:10:57,480 Speaker 1: but I want to say, like super clearly, there are 3480 03:10:57,720 --> 03:11:02,560 Speaker 1: so many rural who do not support the logging industry, 3481 03:11:02,600 --> 03:11:04,800 Speaker 1: and so that's like a false dichotomy that gets presented 3482 03:11:04,840 --> 03:11:06,680 Speaker 1: to us right off the bat, and a lot of 3483 03:11:06,760 --> 03:11:10,080 Speaker 1: those you know, for in the in um the work 3484 03:11:10,200 --> 03:11:14,080 Speaker 1: that I've been doing on forest forest defense, essentially, we're 3485 03:11:14,120 --> 03:11:17,480 Speaker 1: always connecting with folks on the ground in literally the 3486 03:11:17,520 --> 03:11:21,200 Speaker 1: backyards of these logging proposals, and many of them are 3487 03:11:21,320 --> 03:11:24,640 Speaker 1: super uninterested in having their backyards clear cut. And so 3488 03:11:24,840 --> 03:11:28,200 Speaker 1: we you know, the we we pushed directly against that 3489 03:11:28,320 --> 03:11:31,600 Speaker 1: mythology that you know it's just environmentalists coming in from Portland, 3490 03:11:31,680 --> 03:11:34,280 Speaker 1: because we work directly with people, including for Brighton Bush, 3491 03:11:34,360 --> 03:11:36,400 Speaker 1: but with every single thing that we work on directly 3492 03:11:36,440 --> 03:11:38,200 Speaker 1: with people who are literally on the front lines of 3493 03:11:38,280 --> 03:11:42,760 Speaker 1: that logging. That said, there is absolutely um a huge 3494 03:11:43,000 --> 03:11:46,720 Speaker 1: pull um. You know Oregon specifically as you know, famous 3495 03:11:46,760 --> 03:11:48,680 Speaker 1: for logging. Like we talked about last time, there's a 3496 03:11:48,959 --> 03:11:51,800 Speaker 1: logger on top of the capitol. Um you know, are 3497 03:11:51,920 --> 03:11:57,000 Speaker 1: the mayor of Portland's logging money it's in Oregon's Oregonians 3498 03:11:57,040 --> 03:12:03,879 Speaker 1: black and for rural Oregonians. UM. There are economic realities 3499 03:12:04,000 --> 03:12:09,119 Speaker 1: where in some cases some counties benefit from UM logging 3500 03:12:09,240 --> 03:12:12,000 Speaker 1: in their total from the logging industry, their school you know, 3501 03:12:12,160 --> 03:12:15,160 Speaker 1: schools are tied to logging money UM. And there's you know, 3502 03:12:15,840 --> 03:12:18,640 Speaker 1: in a lot of ways, a narrative that is not 3503 03:12:18,800 --> 03:12:22,160 Speaker 1: really accurate anymore, but has like an element of nostalgia 3504 03:12:22,200 --> 03:12:25,160 Speaker 1: to it, like you know, logging towns and UM. This 3505 03:12:25,360 --> 03:12:28,039 Speaker 1: old story about how things used to work with small, 3506 03:12:28,480 --> 03:12:32,560 Speaker 1: small family logging. That's not how it is anymore, but 3507 03:12:32,720 --> 03:12:36,440 Speaker 1: that narrative that like nostalgic narrative, carries on into a 3508 03:12:36,520 --> 03:12:38,600 Speaker 1: lot of communities. And so what the way that I 3509 03:12:38,720 --> 03:12:41,120 Speaker 1: like to cut through that UM for people is by 3510 03:12:41,200 --> 03:12:45,120 Speaker 1: making it really clear that there's a difference between small 3511 03:12:45,480 --> 03:12:49,080 Speaker 1: you know, family loggers of lore UM and and you 3512 03:12:49,160 --> 03:12:51,360 Speaker 1: know of you know, people's what people are attached to 3513 03:12:51,720 --> 03:12:54,000 Speaker 1: and the kinds of what we're seeing today is we're 3514 03:12:54,040 --> 03:12:58,600 Speaker 1: looking at Wall Street logging. We're looking at Wall Street invested, 3515 03:12:58,959 --> 03:13:04,720 Speaker 1: UM invested huge you know corporate industries who owned who 3516 03:13:04,879 --> 03:13:08,560 Speaker 1: can who still own like you know, huge percentages of 3517 03:13:08,600 --> 03:13:11,800 Speaker 1: our drinking water sheds of our UM communities. Some some 3518 03:13:11,920 --> 03:13:14,480 Speaker 1: of the communities on the Coast are owned primarily by 3519 03:13:14,560 --> 03:13:20,360 Speaker 1: private industrial Wall Street funded UM logging corporations. And that's 3520 03:13:20,480 --> 03:13:22,720 Speaker 1: you know, those aren't mom and pop. They're not living 3521 03:13:22,760 --> 03:13:25,280 Speaker 1: in the community. They're living often not even on the 3522 03:13:25,320 --> 03:13:30,279 Speaker 1: Pacific Northwest. These are rich ass assholes who are destroying 3523 03:13:30,800 --> 03:13:35,720 Speaker 1: our bioregion. And you know, I think that making it 3524 03:13:35,879 --> 03:13:39,600 Speaker 1: clear that those aren't those folks are not like us. 3525 03:13:39,760 --> 03:13:43,320 Speaker 1: You know, those are not like rural Oregonians, your those 3526 03:13:43,360 --> 03:13:45,720 Speaker 1: are not your friends. Those are not you know, your 3527 03:13:45,760 --> 03:13:48,920 Speaker 1: pals or your neighbors. And just cutting through that narrative 3528 03:13:49,000 --> 03:13:52,160 Speaker 1: that like, oh, you know logging communities, Um, you know 3529 03:13:52,240 --> 03:13:55,960 Speaker 1: loggers are your friendly neighbor. Actually, no, loggers are Wall Street, um, 3530 03:13:56,680 --> 03:14:00,320 Speaker 1: you know investment corporations, rich money people who are doing 3531 03:14:00,360 --> 03:14:04,119 Speaker 1: this destruction. And just kind of like breaking that I guess, 3532 03:14:04,200 --> 03:14:08,400 Speaker 1: like that um, that attachment that people have to this idea, 3533 03:14:08,480 --> 03:14:14,440 Speaker 1: that's just not a reality anymore. The reality is that 3534 03:14:15,480 --> 03:14:19,600 Speaker 1: people who are for logging in rural communities are they 3535 03:14:19,680 --> 03:14:21,760 Speaker 1: have a lot more common with those of us who 3536 03:14:21,800 --> 03:14:25,280 Speaker 1: are fighting logging than the actual people doing the logging, 3537 03:14:25,360 --> 03:14:27,760 Speaker 1: if that makes sense. Like there's a lack of understanding 3538 03:14:28,360 --> 03:14:31,080 Speaker 1: of what the logging industry actually is it's like back 3539 03:14:31,120 --> 03:14:33,640 Speaker 1: to that nostalgia. Like people who are against logging in 3540 03:14:33,760 --> 03:14:38,760 Speaker 1: rural communities, um, you know, often genuinely do not realize 3541 03:14:38,840 --> 03:14:41,800 Speaker 1: that this is Wall Street and like who's doing this logging. 3542 03:14:41,879 --> 03:14:44,080 Speaker 1: They're still thinking it's their you know, neighbor or their 3543 03:14:44,200 --> 03:14:46,720 Speaker 1: friend and it's you know, these stories. But you know 3544 03:14:46,879 --> 03:14:50,440 Speaker 1: the reality is that, you know, this is corporate timber 3545 03:14:50,520 --> 03:14:53,800 Speaker 1: owners who are maximizing their financial gain by buying out 3546 03:14:53,879 --> 03:14:57,280 Speaker 1: small landowners all over the place, um ensuring that they 3547 03:14:57,320 --> 03:15:00,760 Speaker 1: aren't taxed by lobbying heavily in the government's so they 3548 03:15:00,840 --> 03:15:03,080 Speaker 1: don't you know, have any sort of taxation that then 3549 03:15:03,160 --> 03:15:05,200 Speaker 1: goes back to benefit our communities. Don't even get me 3550 03:15:05,200 --> 03:15:07,720 Speaker 1: started about how many taxes the timber industry skips out 3551 03:15:07,760 --> 03:15:10,640 Speaker 1: on that could actually benefit our communities and our schools 3552 03:15:10,640 --> 03:15:13,840 Speaker 1: and our libraries and our fire departments, but aren't. UM 3553 03:15:14,120 --> 03:15:17,800 Speaker 1: And then they're adopting exploitative labor practices. Basically, you know, 3554 03:15:17,920 --> 03:15:21,280 Speaker 1: the contracted workers who are in the logging industry right now, 3555 03:15:21,320 --> 03:15:24,599 Speaker 1: who are doing the logging and hauling UM and reforestation 3556 03:15:24,760 --> 03:15:29,039 Speaker 1: so called reforestation planting of mono crop plantations, they are 3557 03:15:29,120 --> 03:15:33,320 Speaker 1: experiencing flat wages and declining work quality conditions. Um. Meanwhile, 3558 03:15:33,360 --> 03:15:36,800 Speaker 1: while the corporate timber forms are expanding their profits um 3559 03:15:37,200 --> 03:15:40,000 Speaker 1: and you know, getting more wealthy investors. So that is 3560 03:15:40,040 --> 03:15:43,840 Speaker 1: the reality of the timber industry. These are not you know, 3561 03:15:44,000 --> 03:15:47,879 Speaker 1: your friendly neighborhood loggers anymore. So a few other points 3562 03:15:47,879 --> 03:15:49,880 Speaker 1: I wanted to bring up, kind of on force itself. 3563 03:15:50,120 --> 03:15:54,920 Speaker 1: Someone someone said something about how we talked about like 3564 03:15:55,120 --> 03:15:58,400 Speaker 1: old growth, and and I guess they think that we 3565 03:15:58,520 --> 03:16:02,440 Speaker 1: said that all forests in this area is old growth. 3566 03:16:02,520 --> 03:16:04,680 Speaker 1: And that's not something we actually said old growth. This 3567 03:16:04,840 --> 03:16:08,280 Speaker 1: is a specific term that means a specific thing. And yeah, 3568 03:16:08,400 --> 03:16:10,640 Speaker 1: regardless of it being old growth or not, they still 3569 03:16:10,640 --> 03:16:13,800 Speaker 1: shouldn't be cut down. I don't know. So I'm not 3570 03:16:13,879 --> 03:16:15,840 Speaker 1: sure why this point was really raised, because we didn't 3571 03:16:16,120 --> 03:16:19,480 Speaker 1: I did. I don't think we did, uh say that 3572 03:16:19,560 --> 03:16:23,080 Speaker 1: every that every tree there is old growth. Um. A 3573 03:16:23,160 --> 03:16:25,720 Speaker 1: lot of them were planted in the past few hundred years, UM. 3574 03:16:26,000 --> 03:16:29,879 Speaker 1: But that that doesn't mean like they're like much less important. 3575 03:16:30,000 --> 03:16:32,400 Speaker 1: It's like, just because they're not old growth doesn't mean 3576 03:16:32,440 --> 03:16:35,960 Speaker 1: we shouldn't be preserving this particular watershed in this particular 3577 03:16:36,040 --> 03:16:38,520 Speaker 1: environment and not be clear cutting all of it. Yeah, 3578 03:16:38,600 --> 03:16:41,360 Speaker 1: old growth is like, like the term old growth is 3579 03:16:41,440 --> 03:16:44,160 Speaker 1: just like become fetishized to me, and this like this 3580 03:16:44,320 --> 03:16:46,280 Speaker 1: thing that you know. This Also, let's be clear, that's 3581 03:16:46,280 --> 03:16:48,720 Speaker 1: not an agreement on what old growth actually means across 3582 03:16:48,760 --> 03:16:52,240 Speaker 1: the board, even between agencies, Like there's an arbitrary date 3583 03:16:52,280 --> 03:16:55,680 Speaker 1: cut off that the federal government uses to define old growth. Um. 3584 03:16:55,720 --> 03:16:57,640 Speaker 1: But obviously, if you walk into a forest stand, this 3585 03:16:58,120 --> 03:17:01,720 Speaker 1: a healthy you know, a healthy old growth stand is 3586 03:17:02,320 --> 03:17:05,040 Speaker 1: complex in terms of age diversity. There's going to be 3587 03:17:05,120 --> 03:17:07,039 Speaker 1: old growth individual trees, there's going to be a lot 3588 03:17:07,080 --> 03:17:10,680 Speaker 1: of younger trees, is going to be horizontal and vertical diversification. Like, 3589 03:17:10,840 --> 03:17:13,960 Speaker 1: old growth is complicated, it's messy. But the whole point 3590 03:17:14,080 --> 03:17:16,640 Speaker 1: is like you're right, like it doesn't actually matter if 3591 03:17:16,720 --> 03:17:20,000 Speaker 1: it's like quote in the CAD the small narrow category 3592 03:17:20,120 --> 03:17:22,160 Speaker 1: of what the Forest Service would define as old growth. 3593 03:17:22,200 --> 03:17:24,480 Speaker 1: If it's a forest that's been around for you know, 3594 03:17:24,680 --> 03:17:27,240 Speaker 1: a hundred years or even you know, I would argue, 3595 03:17:27,280 --> 03:17:29,440 Speaker 1: if it's a forest that's over like seventy or eighty 3596 03:17:29,520 --> 03:17:32,600 Speaker 1: years old, what are we doing cutting that down up? 3597 03:17:34,080 --> 03:17:36,960 Speaker 1: Especially now you know that's storing so much carbon safely 3598 03:17:37,040 --> 03:17:38,920 Speaker 1: in the ground, and also by that age, it's had 3599 03:17:38,920 --> 03:17:43,160 Speaker 1: the opportunity, you know, to to become more diverse than 3600 03:17:43,240 --> 03:17:46,680 Speaker 1: these like monocrop plantations that we're seeing younger forests. So 3601 03:17:47,000 --> 03:17:50,119 Speaker 1: I would argue any forest that's not a monocrop plantation, 3602 03:17:50,240 --> 03:17:53,200 Speaker 1: a young monocrop plantation, should absolutely not be clear cut. 3603 03:17:53,280 --> 03:17:56,000 Speaker 1: It's just an inappropriate activity to do in native forest. 3604 03:17:56,080 --> 03:18:00,280 Speaker 1: And speaking of a clear cut, there's another Another comment 3605 03:18:00,480 --> 03:18:05,600 Speaker 1: was about how clear cutting can sometimes be good because 3606 03:18:05,720 --> 03:18:10,080 Speaker 1: it creates new environments for other animals and living things 3607 03:18:10,200 --> 03:18:13,520 Speaker 1: to exist in. And I find this to be a 3608 03:18:13,600 --> 03:18:17,120 Speaker 1: really weird comment to make. Um, I don't. I don't 3609 03:18:17,160 --> 03:18:22,400 Speaker 1: quite understand this, this kind of idea, because yes, of course, 3610 03:18:22,520 --> 03:18:25,040 Speaker 1: if you cut down a forest, you are creating a 3611 03:18:25,160 --> 03:18:29,160 Speaker 1: new environment, but that's not where that environment should be, 3612 03:18:29,440 --> 03:18:31,120 Speaker 1: nor is it where it is. It's like if you 3613 03:18:31,400 --> 03:18:34,280 Speaker 1: if you erect a whole bunch of concrete skyscrapers where 3614 03:18:34,280 --> 03:18:36,280 Speaker 1: a force used to be. Yeah, you're also making a 3615 03:18:36,320 --> 03:18:39,400 Speaker 1: new environment. But I would say we probably shouldn't do that, 3616 03:18:39,520 --> 03:18:41,160 Speaker 1: though I don't. That's not that's not a good thing. 3617 03:18:41,560 --> 03:18:43,120 Speaker 1: The same thing with like the people obsessed with like 3618 03:18:43,160 --> 03:18:46,080 Speaker 1: putting solar panels in the desert, like the desert is 3619 03:18:46,120 --> 03:18:49,160 Speaker 1: an actual environment like it has there is reasons for 3620 03:18:49,240 --> 03:18:52,720 Speaker 1: why deserts need to exist and that have this whole 3621 03:18:53,120 --> 03:18:56,520 Speaker 1: like a whole like a whole whole environment and a 3622 03:18:56,600 --> 03:19:00,400 Speaker 1: whole um I forget the word, but like and as 3623 03:19:00,440 --> 03:19:04,480 Speaker 1: an entire system of living things that exist there. That 3624 03:19:04,640 --> 03:19:08,960 Speaker 1: should Um, we we don't need to terraform everything. I 3625 03:19:09,000 --> 03:19:11,720 Speaker 1: don't think that's like, I don't we shouldn't. I think 3626 03:19:11,800 --> 03:19:15,280 Speaker 1: preserving the environment in general, presuming the environments that are 3627 03:19:15,520 --> 03:19:19,120 Speaker 1: existing and who are creating like ecosystems, is a good thing. 3628 03:19:19,480 --> 03:19:22,960 Speaker 1: I think generally the less terraforming probably probably the better, 3629 03:19:23,400 --> 03:19:25,920 Speaker 1: at least right now, when we're being with a massive 3630 03:19:26,120 --> 03:19:30,720 Speaker 1: like looming climate crisis that's caused by US terraforming the earth. Um, 3631 03:19:31,040 --> 03:19:34,000 Speaker 1: maybe we should not do that as much. Yeah, we 3632 03:19:34,000 --> 03:19:36,520 Speaker 1: could call by the general role like no more terraforming, 3633 03:19:36,600 --> 03:19:38,800 Speaker 1: you'll just leave it. Let's just let's just leave us, 3634 03:19:38,879 --> 03:19:42,440 Speaker 1: let's leave us for a bit just as but for 3635 03:19:42,600 --> 03:19:45,680 Speaker 1: real though, whoever wrote that comment, I mean, that is 3636 03:19:46,240 --> 03:19:49,480 Speaker 1: a timber industry talking point that it's literally that is 3637 03:19:49,560 --> 03:19:51,960 Speaker 1: literally and whether they meant it or not, you know, 3638 03:19:52,040 --> 03:19:54,039 Speaker 1: this is how the timber industry gets us. They're real 3639 03:19:54,120 --> 03:19:56,720 Speaker 1: good at this. This is there, you know, nice sounding 3640 03:19:56,800 --> 03:20:00,280 Speaker 1: talking points that we rebut all the time, um, you know, 3641 03:20:00,400 --> 03:20:03,720 Speaker 1: not just in media but also in court. Um. And 3642 03:20:03,879 --> 03:20:08,560 Speaker 1: the talking point is clear cuts mimic natural disasters like 3643 03:20:08,760 --> 03:20:12,960 Speaker 1: severe fires by replacing you. And it's that they totally 3644 03:20:13,080 --> 03:20:15,960 Speaker 1: don't because it does not look at a clear cut. 3645 03:20:16,080 --> 03:20:18,920 Speaker 1: Go look at a fire. It's a completely different experience 3646 03:20:18,920 --> 03:20:20,680 Speaker 1: than I could go down that rabbit hole all day 3647 03:20:20,760 --> 03:20:24,640 Speaker 1: on fire ecology another time maybe, but suffice it's to say, 3648 03:20:25,120 --> 03:20:29,440 Speaker 1: you know, what they're arguing is that they're creating young 3649 03:20:29,680 --> 03:20:33,280 Speaker 1: forest or quote early several habitat by clear cutting an 3650 03:20:33,320 --> 03:20:37,080 Speaker 1: old forest. But what they're actually doing is deforestation. They're 3651 03:20:37,120 --> 03:20:40,640 Speaker 1: replacing an old forest with something that's not a forest, 3652 03:20:40,959 --> 03:20:44,280 Speaker 1: A young mono crop plantation is a crop. It is 3653 03:20:44,360 --> 03:20:48,360 Speaker 1: not a forest, and so they are deforesting, and um, 3654 03:20:48,720 --> 03:20:53,880 Speaker 1: it is ecosystem. It is ecoside, and it is it 3655 03:20:54,440 --> 03:20:57,400 Speaker 1: is egoside. And I think, yeah, the insistence that like 3656 03:20:57,440 --> 03:20:59,720 Speaker 1: it's it's good because it will allow some species to 3657 03:21:00,600 --> 03:21:02,760 Speaker 1: exist in this new environment, like yeah, but there's other 3658 03:21:02,840 --> 03:21:04,680 Speaker 1: environments where they can't exist, and we don't we don't 3659 03:21:04,720 --> 03:21:07,119 Speaker 1: need to be destroying the ones that are already kind 3660 03:21:07,160 --> 03:21:09,760 Speaker 1: of important and doing good stuff to make room for 3661 03:21:09,879 --> 03:21:12,840 Speaker 1: other ones that aren't already there. They argue that the 3662 03:21:12,920 --> 03:21:15,240 Speaker 1: deer and the butterflies love the clear cuts, and so 3663 03:21:15,480 --> 03:21:18,240 Speaker 1: just call that out as bullshit. Next time you'll hear that. It's, 3664 03:21:18,320 --> 03:21:20,959 Speaker 1: you know, spread the word that is some timber industry bs. 3665 03:21:21,000 --> 03:21:22,760 Speaker 1: They're tricksy, but don't let them get you. And the 3666 03:21:23,520 --> 03:21:27,080 Speaker 1: last thing I wanted to mention is why blocking off 3667 03:21:27,120 --> 03:21:30,039 Speaker 1: access to these areas is bad? Um, because I got 3668 03:21:30,600 --> 03:21:35,760 Speaker 1: someone someone said something like, um, you know, because fires 3669 03:21:35,760 --> 03:21:39,600 Speaker 1: are human caused, closing off public lands is it can 3670 03:21:39,680 --> 03:21:42,600 Speaker 1: be good because then fires someone gets hurt in those areas, 3671 03:21:42,800 --> 03:21:47,000 Speaker 1: And this really just misunderstands why fires get started. And 3672 03:21:47,120 --> 03:21:49,840 Speaker 1: also it's just a bad thing to do anyway, because 3673 03:21:49,879 --> 03:21:51,960 Speaker 1: like fire, if you look at like the map of 3674 03:21:52,000 --> 03:21:55,400 Speaker 1: where wildfires start, um, almost all of them are on 3675 03:21:55,680 --> 03:21:59,720 Speaker 1: the path of highways. Um. Specifically in California that when 3676 03:21:59,800 --> 03:22:01,800 Speaker 1: when the fires were really there was there was this 3677 03:22:01,840 --> 03:22:04,920 Speaker 1: firefighter who who made a great video about like why 3678 03:22:05,120 --> 03:22:07,520 Speaker 1: the fire line was all next to the highway, And 3679 03:22:07,720 --> 03:22:10,840 Speaker 1: there was like conspiracy theories of like including the antifa's 3680 03:22:10,920 --> 03:22:13,840 Speaker 1: driving down highways and setting the forest on fire, which 3681 03:22:13,920 --> 03:22:16,520 Speaker 1: was which was an actual popular talking point because we 3682 03:22:16,560 --> 03:22:18,760 Speaker 1: live in the hell world. Um, but like you know, 3683 03:22:18,840 --> 03:22:20,760 Speaker 1: he's explained like the reason why, Like they are like 3684 03:22:21,000 --> 03:22:23,720 Speaker 1: human caused, but they're not, like a lot of them 3685 03:22:23,720 --> 03:22:26,320 Speaker 1: aren't intentionally caused. It's because that's where power lines run, 3686 03:22:26,640 --> 03:22:28,840 Speaker 1: and this is where a lot of sparks can ignite 3687 03:22:28,840 --> 03:22:32,119 Speaker 1: stuff on the edges of of of highways that will 3688 03:22:32,160 --> 03:22:34,320 Speaker 1: then take out part of the forest. Now, every once 3689 03:22:34,320 --> 03:22:36,560 Speaker 1: in a while there's a gender reveal party that goes 3690 03:22:36,600 --> 03:22:39,240 Speaker 1: horribly wrong and does and and does ignite it. That 3691 03:22:39,520 --> 03:22:41,440 Speaker 1: is true, and I think the solution to that is 3692 03:22:41,680 --> 03:22:45,360 Speaker 1: not closing down the forest. It's not having gender reveal 3693 03:22:45,440 --> 03:22:51,280 Speaker 1: parties that we stopped selling uh on Amazon. I'm all 3694 03:22:51,320 --> 03:22:53,800 Speaker 1: thor Tanna right as an idea, But how about let's 3695 03:22:53,800 --> 03:22:57,200 Speaker 1: stop selling blue and pink Tanna right packets to people 3696 03:22:57,200 --> 03:23:00,880 Speaker 1: who don't know how to use explosives genuinely don't know 3697 03:23:00,959 --> 03:23:02,680 Speaker 1: about because yeah, like they're not they're not actually using 3698 03:23:02,720 --> 03:23:04,440 Speaker 1: tanna right for what it's meant for, and they're not 3699 03:23:04,560 --> 03:23:07,720 Speaker 1: using it to do like like training, Um, they're using 3700 03:23:07,800 --> 03:23:09,840 Speaker 1: it to say that they're having a baby, and this 3701 03:23:09,920 --> 03:23:12,840 Speaker 1: has caused a lot of wildfire death. So how how 3702 03:23:12,879 --> 03:23:17,800 Speaker 1: about we just stopped selling uh the gender reveal party bombs. 3703 03:23:18,560 --> 03:23:20,760 Speaker 1: I think that'd be a better solution than closing down 3704 03:23:21,200 --> 03:23:25,760 Speaker 1: massive swaths of public land. And how about our power 3705 03:23:25,840 --> 03:23:29,960 Speaker 1: line companies get their ship together and stop. Do actually 3706 03:23:30,080 --> 03:23:33,280 Speaker 1: have a plan for planned power shut offs? And actually, 3707 03:23:33,440 --> 03:23:36,640 Speaker 1: you know, we know now actually Pacific Corps is in 3708 03:23:37,360 --> 03:23:40,680 Speaker 1: court right now because they started the Santiam fires. Their 3709 03:23:40,720 --> 03:23:43,440 Speaker 1: power lines started the Santa Inspires and the Archie Creek 3710 03:23:43,480 --> 03:23:46,640 Speaker 1: fires and probably more. And so yeah, how about the 3711 03:23:46,680 --> 03:23:48,879 Speaker 1: power line companies get their ships together? But I feel 3712 03:23:48,920 --> 03:23:51,320 Speaker 1: like the other huge thing here is that, you know, 3713 03:23:51,440 --> 03:23:53,840 Speaker 1: the suggestion that we should close off these forests to 3714 03:23:53,879 --> 03:23:58,720 Speaker 1: the public, to me is just like more uh you know, 3715 03:23:59,240 --> 03:24:02,520 Speaker 1: it's you know, blatantly it's racist, um, and it's you know, 3716 03:24:02,680 --> 03:24:06,920 Speaker 1: I think it's wrong because these lands, these belong to 3717 03:24:07,120 --> 03:24:10,000 Speaker 1: Indigenous people. We should be giving these lands back to 3718 03:24:10,160 --> 03:24:12,640 Speaker 1: indigenous people. And think, you know, when we're talking about 3719 03:24:12,720 --> 03:24:16,160 Speaker 1: like rural communities too, in adjust transition, like rural community 3720 03:24:16,240 --> 03:24:19,040 Speaker 1: members should actually have more say in what happens in 3721 03:24:19,080 --> 03:24:21,600 Speaker 1: their backyard. Forests should be able to be more engaged 3722 03:24:22,000 --> 03:24:24,800 Speaker 1: UM in you know, the forests that literally provide them 3723 03:24:24,840 --> 03:24:27,720 Speaker 1: with their drinking water, UM, and you know all of 3724 03:24:27,760 --> 03:24:31,080 Speaker 1: the things that they need, um to survive. So we 3725 03:24:31,120 --> 03:24:33,080 Speaker 1: should not be you know, locking off these lands and 3726 03:24:33,160 --> 03:24:36,119 Speaker 1: keeping humans out. Humans have a place in these lands. 3727 03:24:36,240 --> 03:24:38,360 Speaker 1: I've always had a place in a role in these lands, 3728 03:24:38,680 --> 03:24:40,640 Speaker 1: and um, if we take leadership from the right folks, 3729 03:24:40,680 --> 03:24:42,760 Speaker 1: then we could totally live in a much more reasonable 3730 03:24:42,760 --> 03:24:45,640 Speaker 1: way than the gender revealed party path. Yeah, and like 3731 03:24:46,160 --> 03:24:48,360 Speaker 1: I don't know if you know this, but like being 3732 03:24:48,400 --> 03:24:51,800 Speaker 1: in the forest is great. It's like it is great 3733 03:24:51,920 --> 03:24:55,800 Speaker 1: to be surrounded by giant trees. It makes you feel awesome. 3734 03:24:56,800 --> 03:24:59,080 Speaker 1: The last thing I want to talk about is um 3735 03:25:00,000 --> 03:25:03,240 Speaker 1: you you mentioned before, like getting people who live in 3736 03:25:03,320 --> 03:25:06,040 Speaker 1: these rural areas who used to rely on logging, getting 3737 03:25:06,040 --> 03:25:08,160 Speaker 1: them are involved and doing a just transition, because this 3738 03:25:08,240 --> 03:25:09,920 Speaker 1: is a topic that comes out that comes up on 3739 03:25:10,000 --> 03:25:12,480 Speaker 1: climate change like everywhere in terms of like you know, 3740 03:25:12,640 --> 03:25:15,480 Speaker 1: like countries that are still developing not being able to 3741 03:25:15,560 --> 03:25:17,680 Speaker 1: have access to the same amount of fossil fuels that 3742 03:25:17,800 --> 03:25:21,080 Speaker 1: countries like the States you know had when they when 3743 03:25:21,360 --> 03:25:23,960 Speaker 1: when they were developing, and like how is that fair? Right? 3744 03:25:24,240 --> 03:25:25,840 Speaker 1: This this is like, this is a very common thing 3745 03:25:25,920 --> 03:25:28,560 Speaker 1: of in terms of countries that are better off. UM, 3746 03:25:29,000 --> 03:25:31,680 Speaker 1: need will you know, have kind of kind of like 3747 03:25:31,720 --> 03:25:35,000 Speaker 1: a duty to assist assist countries that are trying to 3748 03:25:35,080 --> 03:25:37,840 Speaker 1: develop and trying to get better standards of living. Um, 3749 03:25:38,879 --> 03:25:41,040 Speaker 1: because we profited off the fossil fuels and now they 3750 03:25:41,080 --> 03:25:43,400 Speaker 1: won't have the same opportunity if we're trying to you know, 3751 03:25:43,760 --> 03:25:47,119 Speaker 1: get to a carbon neutral world. UM. So in terms 3752 03:25:47,160 --> 03:25:49,240 Speaker 1: of like a just just transition, this is something like 3753 03:25:49,320 --> 03:25:51,480 Speaker 1: you know, a COP twenty six there was supposed to 3754 03:25:51,520 --> 03:25:55,520 Speaker 1: be funding for adaptation efforts in in the developing countries. 3755 03:25:55,600 --> 03:25:57,680 Speaker 1: Now that failed because of course it did. It's COP 3756 03:25:57,760 --> 03:25:59,520 Speaker 1: twenty six. But in terms of like, in terms of 3757 03:25:59,600 --> 03:26:02,440 Speaker 1: like this idea of a just transition, how do you 3758 03:26:02,480 --> 03:26:05,800 Speaker 1: see this like locally in the rural environment within the 3759 03:26:05,879 --> 03:26:08,400 Speaker 1: States and for for like these types of areas, because like, yeah, 3760 03:26:08,400 --> 03:26:11,720 Speaker 1: because it's similar to like coal mining the towns, similar 3761 03:26:11,840 --> 03:26:15,720 Speaker 1: to you know, logging towns. How how does how do 3762 03:26:15,760 --> 03:26:18,400 Speaker 1: you see this working? Yeah? This is something I think 3763 03:26:18,440 --> 03:26:21,400 Speaker 1: about so much. UM. And we actually put out a 3764 03:26:21,480 --> 03:26:23,440 Speaker 1: platform called a Green New Deal for our Forests in 3765 03:26:23,480 --> 03:26:25,720 Speaker 1: the Pacific Northwest that talks like all about what a 3766 03:26:25,800 --> 03:26:28,320 Speaker 1: just transition could look like for communities. But I mean, 3767 03:26:28,440 --> 03:26:30,680 Speaker 1: this is a dream, and I think it's like a 3768 03:26:30,760 --> 03:26:34,240 Speaker 1: really inspiring uh inspiring path forward because what it means 3769 03:26:34,360 --> 03:26:36,480 Speaker 1: is that, you know, we're not saying to end logging, 3770 03:26:36,520 --> 03:26:39,360 Speaker 1: and we're not saying that rural communities basically need to 3771 03:26:39,440 --> 03:26:41,760 Speaker 1: like stop existing and getting funding from logging. What we're 3772 03:26:41,760 --> 03:26:45,519 Speaker 1: saying is that rural community members, what we that nostalgic 3773 03:26:45,640 --> 03:26:47,959 Speaker 1: dream that are that people are playing to, we actually 3774 03:26:48,040 --> 03:26:50,480 Speaker 1: want to have something in that regard. We would like 3775 03:26:50,680 --> 03:26:54,360 Speaker 1: people to you know, engage with and interact with their 3776 03:26:54,440 --> 03:26:56,840 Speaker 1: local forests. Now that shouldn't look like clear cutting them, 3777 03:26:57,200 --> 03:27:01,320 Speaker 1: because um, that's irresponsible and that doesn't unefit local communities 3778 03:27:01,560 --> 03:27:03,960 Speaker 1: or you know, the benefit of future. But that could 3779 03:27:04,040 --> 03:27:08,480 Speaker 1: look like restoring these young mono crop plantations into complex, 3780 03:27:08,520 --> 03:27:11,400 Speaker 1: healthy forests. It could be looked like bringing fire back 3781 03:27:11,480 --> 03:27:14,720 Speaker 1: onto the landscape with prescribed fire and cultural burning, taking 3782 03:27:14,800 --> 03:27:17,520 Speaker 1: lessons from indigenous folks who are doing network um. It 3783 03:27:17,600 --> 03:27:21,640 Speaker 1: could look like education and recreation and so many things 3784 03:27:21,720 --> 03:27:25,039 Speaker 1: of like you know, hands on engagement with backyard forests 3785 03:27:25,080 --> 03:27:28,000 Speaker 1: that surround us um and you know that that could 3786 03:27:28,040 --> 03:27:32,840 Speaker 1: look like basically firing the freddies and uh taking this 3787 03:27:33,040 --> 03:27:36,480 Speaker 1: land and giving it to local communities with um, you 3788 03:27:36,560 --> 03:27:40,280 Speaker 1: know the with with conservation goals but also goals to 3789 03:27:40,760 --> 03:27:44,320 Speaker 1: economically support by all of those ways you know, jobs 3790 03:27:44,440 --> 03:27:49,160 Speaker 1: but also jobs and recreation, UM economically support local communities. 3791 03:27:49,200 --> 03:27:52,080 Speaker 1: So basically giving the land back to the local communities 3792 03:27:52,120 --> 03:27:55,040 Speaker 1: who rely on them and giving them power and control 3793 03:27:55,480 --> 03:27:57,680 Speaker 1: UM to care for them in ways that makes sense 3794 03:27:57,920 --> 03:28:00,200 Speaker 1: because right now, while streets caring for our four us 3795 03:28:00,400 --> 03:28:03,480 Speaker 1: and really it should be us. And I think one 3796 03:28:03,520 --> 03:28:05,840 Speaker 1: other thing on this topic, for like how how well 3797 03:28:06,080 --> 03:28:09,680 Speaker 1: propagando works when I was UM at the stop line 3798 03:28:09,760 --> 03:28:13,480 Speaker 1: three purchase camps last summer in terms of like how 3799 03:28:13,560 --> 03:28:16,960 Speaker 1: do corporations get towns to start supporting these ideas and 3800 03:28:17,000 --> 03:28:20,600 Speaker 1: how do they like foster this hatred of environmentalism um, 3801 03:28:21,040 --> 03:28:23,560 Speaker 1: despite you know, these areas often being the worst impact 3802 03:28:23,680 --> 03:28:26,720 Speaker 1: one of the worst impacted ones by these like effort efforts. 3803 03:28:26,840 --> 03:28:29,800 Speaker 1: Right uh, you know you're they're chopping down forests near 3804 03:28:29,959 --> 03:28:32,760 Speaker 1: where this town is. Pipeline is going next to the town. 3805 03:28:33,080 --> 03:28:35,480 Speaker 1: If it leaks, it's going to cause all this problem 3806 03:28:35,560 --> 03:28:38,240 Speaker 1: to like their water spline stuff. But like how they do. 3807 03:28:38,280 --> 03:28:41,240 Speaker 1: It's like the day of the direct action to block 3808 03:28:41,280 --> 03:28:45,440 Speaker 1: off the pipeline, Enbridge was sponsoring like a town fair 3809 03:28:45,680 --> 03:28:48,800 Speaker 1: in like the little downtown area, and it's like this 3810 03:28:49,000 --> 03:28:52,120 Speaker 1: super surreal moment of being like, oh, this is like 3811 03:28:52,600 --> 03:28:56,400 Speaker 1: I've read this happened in like comics before, Like this 3812 03:28:56,560 --> 03:28:58,400 Speaker 1: this is like this is like one of Lex Luthor's 3813 03:28:58,480 --> 03:29:01,400 Speaker 1: favorite things to do. Hell like like go into this 3814 03:29:01,520 --> 03:29:04,440 Speaker 1: like small town. Who's gonna start like this evil you know, 3815 03:29:04,800 --> 03:29:08,240 Speaker 1: evil like uh like lab At and he'll like fund 3816 03:29:08,360 --> 03:29:11,280 Speaker 1: like this small town event thing and like I've like 3817 03:29:11,560 --> 03:29:14,920 Speaker 1: seen this before in so many superhero comics, Like I've 3818 03:29:14,959 --> 03:29:17,160 Speaker 1: seen this trope and that I'm just like living it. 3819 03:29:17,280 --> 03:29:19,920 Speaker 1: You're just like watching it happen. You're like driving past 3820 03:29:20,000 --> 03:29:23,400 Speaker 1: the town to go block up pipeline and then you 3821 03:29:23,480 --> 03:29:25,760 Speaker 1: see like Enbridge with like a little stage and like 3822 03:29:25,840 --> 03:29:28,120 Speaker 1: a little like fair and like everyone in the towns 3823 03:29:28,160 --> 03:29:30,040 Speaker 1: like dancing and they're giving out like free drinks and 3824 03:29:30,160 --> 03:29:34,840 Speaker 1: like oh no, like this is yeah, Like you're you're 3825 03:29:34,879 --> 03:29:36,920 Speaker 1: like living the things like you know, a lot of it. 3826 03:29:36,959 --> 03:29:40,359 Speaker 1: It's about like this idea of like rein like reinvigorating 3827 03:29:40,440 --> 03:29:43,080 Speaker 1: like like you know, like the like the spirit of 3828 03:29:43,120 --> 03:29:45,880 Speaker 1: the town and injecting injecting new life into it. So 3829 03:29:45,959 --> 03:29:47,320 Speaker 1: like you know, this this is like a new one 3830 03:29:47,400 --> 03:29:49,440 Speaker 1: for like they're they're putting a pipeline down, but like, 3831 03:29:49,520 --> 03:29:50,760 Speaker 1: you know, it's the same thing for like you know, 3832 03:29:50,879 --> 03:29:54,640 Speaker 1: old like old cold towns, old logging towns, and these 3833 03:29:54,640 --> 03:29:57,400 Speaker 1: corporations will come in, you know, make the town more 3834 03:29:57,480 --> 03:29:59,640 Speaker 1: active again, start putting on events, make it feel like 3835 03:29:59,680 --> 03:30:02,160 Speaker 1: more of a place. And then that that gets so 3836 03:30:02,480 --> 03:30:06,280 Speaker 1: the company gets associated with positive changes. Right, so then 3837 03:30:06,280 --> 03:30:08,080 Speaker 1: people who live in towns like, oh yeah, and we're 3838 03:30:08,080 --> 03:30:10,400 Speaker 1: just doing all these good things for my town. That 3839 03:30:10,520 --> 03:30:12,920 Speaker 1: must mean they actually, you know, are gonna care about 3840 03:30:13,000 --> 03:30:15,320 Speaker 1: us here and then help and help us out. Meanwhile, 3841 03:30:15,400 --> 03:30:17,760 Speaker 1: these people from all around the country are driving through 3842 03:30:17,840 --> 03:30:20,280 Speaker 1: and trying to block the pipeline, and the police are 3843 03:30:20,320 --> 03:30:23,760 Speaker 1: driving everywhere. Now it's all this chaos, right, these stupid environmentalists, 3844 03:30:23,840 --> 03:30:25,840 Speaker 1: they don't understand how this is gonna you know, it's 3845 03:30:25,920 --> 03:30:28,400 Speaker 1: it's we're creating so many jobs here, which actually didn't. 3846 03:30:28,520 --> 03:30:30,680 Speaker 1: Enbridge outsourced most of the jobs out of state, but 3847 03:30:31,040 --> 03:30:33,040 Speaker 1: they lied about the type of job creation. You know, 3848 03:30:33,120 --> 03:30:35,440 Speaker 1: all all all all this type of stuff, and this 3849 03:30:35,640 --> 03:30:39,440 Speaker 1: is a very very common thing totally, and like timber 3850 03:30:39,560 --> 03:30:43,400 Speaker 1: unity is like delivering would to people when the when 3851 03:30:43,480 --> 03:30:45,640 Speaker 1: when the snow storm happened and everyone was cold and 3852 03:30:45,680 --> 03:30:47,640 Speaker 1: didn't have power, and they were you know, going door 3853 03:30:47,720 --> 03:30:51,280 Speaker 1: to door with mutual aid support. Um. But that is 3854 03:30:51,360 --> 03:30:54,760 Speaker 1: why you know, a remember how everyone should remember how 3855 03:30:54,959 --> 03:30:57,920 Speaker 1: how tricks e and how dishonest these folks are. But 3856 03:30:58,000 --> 03:31:00,960 Speaker 1: also be why um, those of us who want to 3857 03:31:01,040 --> 03:31:03,480 Speaker 1: see a different way need to be doing mutual aid too, 3858 03:31:03,920 --> 03:31:06,119 Speaker 1: Like we actually need to be out there in our 3859 03:31:06,160 --> 03:31:08,840 Speaker 1: communities and making friends and building trust and not just 3860 03:31:08,920 --> 03:31:11,600 Speaker 1: showing up to function up when it's time to function up. 3861 03:31:11,840 --> 03:31:13,440 Speaker 1: And I think that kind of like circles back to 3862 03:31:13,520 --> 03:31:15,720 Speaker 1: the point we talked about earlier, which is like building 3863 03:31:15,760 --> 03:31:18,360 Speaker 1: relationships with people on the front lines. Um, looks like 3864 03:31:18,480 --> 03:31:20,640 Speaker 1: so much more than just like the defense of a 3865 03:31:20,720 --> 03:31:22,840 Speaker 1: bad thing in their backyards. It looks like, you know, 3866 03:31:23,000 --> 03:31:26,320 Speaker 1: mutual aid because the industry is doing it, um and 3867 03:31:26,560 --> 03:31:30,640 Speaker 1: they're they're good at it, and we need to be better. Um. 3868 03:31:30,760 --> 03:31:32,480 Speaker 1: I think that wraps it up for us today. I 3869 03:31:32,520 --> 03:31:34,200 Speaker 1: just what one thing I want to mention is like, 3870 03:31:34,560 --> 03:31:37,160 Speaker 1: what what is going to happen going forward? Now? After this, 3871 03:31:37,480 --> 03:31:40,800 Speaker 1: after this legal victory, what's kind of just just just 3872 03:31:40,959 --> 03:31:42,720 Speaker 1: just just just so people know, like what is like 3873 03:31:42,760 --> 03:31:44,240 Speaker 1: the next steps that are going to be taken on 3874 03:31:44,280 --> 03:31:46,480 Speaker 1: the legal process that will kind of determine what what 3875 03:31:46,640 --> 03:31:49,840 Speaker 1: happens UM with like you know, direct actions and going 3876 03:31:49,879 --> 03:31:53,720 Speaker 1: to see the forest in like in the future. Yeah, UM, Well, 3877 03:31:53,760 --> 03:31:57,280 Speaker 1: basically we're waiting UM for a date for this court 3878 03:31:57,360 --> 03:32:00,200 Speaker 1: case UM, and so that will hopefully be scheduled if 3879 03:32:00,200 --> 03:32:01,800 Speaker 1: it if it ends up having to go through, which 3880 03:32:01,800 --> 03:32:03,920 Speaker 1: it might not. UM. Obviously it is going to be 3881 03:32:03,959 --> 03:32:07,440 Speaker 1: an effort made on behalf of lawyers UM to try 3882 03:32:07,560 --> 03:32:09,840 Speaker 1: and get the Force service to just stop, to just 3883 03:32:10,040 --> 03:32:13,360 Speaker 1: drop this to Nanigan UM and walk away UM while 3884 03:32:13,440 --> 03:32:16,040 Speaker 1: they're you know where they're at. Because we we do 3885 03:32:16,160 --> 03:32:18,200 Speaker 1: think we have a really strong case UM that will 3886 03:32:18,240 --> 03:32:20,400 Speaker 1: win in court if it goes to court. So that's 3887 03:32:20,480 --> 03:32:23,040 Speaker 1: kind of like the legal avenue UM. Same story as 3888 03:32:23,080 --> 03:32:25,200 Speaker 1: what I said with the last time we talked. You know, 3889 03:32:25,360 --> 03:32:29,400 Speaker 1: if if logging is going to move forward in that area, 3890 03:32:29,480 --> 03:32:32,680 Speaker 1: whether that be because UM it happens in the future 3891 03:32:32,800 --> 03:32:36,280 Speaker 1: or because somehow this legal case is lost, direct action 3892 03:32:36,360 --> 03:32:38,880 Speaker 1: will happen. People will be out there in the way 3893 03:32:38,959 --> 03:32:41,120 Speaker 1: of logging. There's no way people are going to let 3894 03:32:41,200 --> 03:32:43,400 Speaker 1: that go down in the Brighton Bush community. UM. So 3895 03:32:43,600 --> 03:32:45,879 Speaker 1: right now we're kind of in a waiting game. We're 3896 03:32:45,920 --> 03:32:48,520 Speaker 1: watching and waiting. UM, but you know, I hope the 3897 03:32:48,560 --> 03:32:50,879 Speaker 1: four Service knows now that they can't just get get 3898 03:32:50,879 --> 03:32:53,680 Speaker 1: away with stuff like this. People are watching, UM, people 3899 03:32:53,720 --> 03:32:56,320 Speaker 1: are going to file public records request. We're documenting this 3900 03:32:56,800 --> 03:32:59,200 Speaker 1: and UM hopefully you know, we won't be seeing more 3901 03:32:59,200 --> 03:33:01,160 Speaker 1: of this, but because we live in the real world, 3902 03:33:01,200 --> 03:33:03,360 Speaker 1: the real sad world, we will be seeing more of this, 3903 03:33:03,640 --> 03:33:06,080 Speaker 1: and so, UM, you know, we'll be out there again 3904 03:33:06,200 --> 03:33:08,360 Speaker 1: when the next forest is on the chopping block, which 3905 03:33:08,440 --> 03:33:12,480 Speaker 1: is probably going to be you know, today, tomorrow. Yeah, 3906 03:33:12,560 --> 03:33:15,280 Speaker 1: it's kind of always the thing. UM. Well, thank thank 3907 03:33:15,320 --> 03:33:16,800 Speaker 1: you so much for coming on to talk about this 3908 03:33:17,000 --> 03:33:21,959 Speaker 1: and the uh rare rare good news episode of Hey 3909 03:33:22,120 --> 03:33:27,680 Speaker 1: something good happened. Thank you. Thanks. In any of these sources, 3910 03:33:27,760 --> 03:33:30,560 Speaker 1: people can kind of follow along on the fight that 3911 03:33:30,680 --> 03:33:34,720 Speaker 1: the people can find online. Yeah, make sure to follow 3912 03:33:34,800 --> 03:33:37,840 Speaker 1: Cascadia Forest Offenders and Portland Rising Tide um who will 3913 03:33:37,840 --> 03:33:41,080 Speaker 1: be definitely tracking and posting. You can also follow Cascadia Wildlands, 3914 03:33:41,120 --> 03:33:44,400 Speaker 1: who um was the lead nonprofit on the lawsuit and 3915 03:33:44,680 --> 03:33:48,000 Speaker 1: they've been posting about it too. Great. All right, thanks 3916 03:33:48,040 --> 03:34:04,400 Speaker 1: everybody for listening. Uh go see a tree, touch tree. Yeah. Hey, 3917 03:34:04,520 --> 03:34:07,600 Speaker 1: we'll be back Monday with more episodes every week from 3918 03:34:07,640 --> 03:34:10,400 Speaker 1: now until the heat death of the Universe. It Could 3919 03:34:10,440 --> 03:34:12,760 Speaker 1: Happen Here is a production of cool Zone Media. For 3920 03:34:12,879 --> 03:34:15,640 Speaker 1: more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website cool 3921 03:34:15,680 --> 03:34:17,640 Speaker 1: zone media dot com, or check us out on the 3922 03:34:17,680 --> 03:34:20,360 Speaker 1: I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen 3923 03:34:20,400 --> 03:34:23,360 Speaker 1: to podcasts. You can find sources for It Could Happen Here, 3924 03:34:23,440 --> 03:34:26,840 Speaker 1: updated monthly at cool zone Media dot com slash sources. 3925 03:34:27,120 --> 03:34:27,879 Speaker 1: Thanks for listening.