1 00:00:00,360 --> 00:00:13,600 Speaker 1: Rivals is a production of I Heart Radio Everyone. This 2 00:00:13,720 --> 00:00:17,400 Speaker 1: is Rivals, the show about music beefs and feuds and 3 00:00:17,560 --> 00:00:21,400 Speaker 1: long simmering resentments. I'm Steve and I'm Jordan's and this 4 00:00:21,480 --> 00:00:25,479 Speaker 1: episode is about one of the longest simmering resentments in 5 00:00:25,600 --> 00:00:28,160 Speaker 1: rock history. We're both excited to talk about this, I think, 6 00:00:28,160 --> 00:00:31,640 Speaker 1: because we care about this band a lot, but it's 7 00:00:31,640 --> 00:00:33,880 Speaker 1: also pretty melancholy. For me. This is like one of 8 00:00:33,960 --> 00:00:36,680 Speaker 1: the saddest rivalries because I feel like there's so much 9 00:00:36,720 --> 00:00:40,280 Speaker 1: wasted potential in this story. No matter all the great 10 00:00:40,320 --> 00:00:42,760 Speaker 1: things that these two people were able to achieve together, 11 00:00:43,240 --> 00:00:46,360 Speaker 1: you feel like they could have just gotten their acts together. 12 00:00:46,400 --> 00:00:48,920 Speaker 1: They could have done so much more, So much great music, 13 00:00:49,040 --> 00:00:52,080 Speaker 1: so much warm friendship, just was completely wasted. You're right, 14 00:00:52,400 --> 00:00:55,840 Speaker 1: it's the original story I think of commerce getting in 15 00:00:55,880 --> 00:00:58,040 Speaker 1: the way of great music and friendship. It's a really 16 00:00:58,040 --> 00:01:01,080 Speaker 1: heartbreaking tale. It is. We were two baby boomers, we'd 17 00:01:01,120 --> 00:01:04,280 Speaker 1: be talking about the lost innocence of the sixties right now, 18 00:01:04,880 --> 00:01:08,160 Speaker 1: you know, in a very serious, young winner type voice. 19 00:01:08,240 --> 00:01:11,800 Speaker 1: But we're not. We're not. We're not baby boomers, fortunately 20 00:01:11,880 --> 00:01:14,959 Speaker 1: or unfortunately. But we do love the band, not a band, 21 00:01:15,160 --> 00:01:18,959 Speaker 1: the band and the rivalry we're talking about is Robbie 22 00:01:19,000 --> 00:01:22,399 Speaker 1: Robertson versus Levi on Helm, and I feel like this 23 00:01:22,440 --> 00:01:25,880 Speaker 1: story has fresh relevance right now because at the time 24 00:01:25,920 --> 00:01:28,800 Speaker 1: that we're recording this, there's a new documentary that is out. 25 00:01:28,840 --> 00:01:32,399 Speaker 1: It's called Once We're Brothers. It's a documentary that goes 26 00:01:32,480 --> 00:01:34,520 Speaker 1: over the band story. I mean, I feel like there's 27 00:01:34,520 --> 00:01:36,880 Speaker 1: been lots of documentaries about the band, are lots of 28 00:01:36,880 --> 00:01:39,399 Speaker 1: books about them, and I know that we both have 29 00:01:39,480 --> 00:01:41,319 Speaker 1: seen it, and we'll probably talk about it later in 30 00:01:41,319 --> 00:01:42,880 Speaker 1: this episode. But I think it's fair to say that 31 00:01:42,920 --> 00:01:46,920 Speaker 1: this documentary will not bring closure to this story. If anything, 32 00:01:46,920 --> 00:01:50,560 Speaker 1: it will only intensify this rivalry even more, just because 33 00:01:50,600 --> 00:01:54,560 Speaker 1: it's told from the perspective of Robbie Robertson. Basically, however 34 00:01:54,600 --> 00:01:55,840 Speaker 1: you want to look at it, if you want to 35 00:01:55,840 --> 00:01:59,720 Speaker 1: look at as convenient or or cheap or or what 36 00:02:00,000 --> 00:02:02,600 Speaker 1: where it is. He waited to make this movie as 37 00:02:02,600 --> 00:02:05,200 Speaker 1: well as write his book that came out in uh 38 00:02:05,280 --> 00:02:08,160 Speaker 1: I think it was called Testimony. He waited to do 39 00:02:08,200 --> 00:02:10,080 Speaker 1: all these things until most of the guys in the 40 00:02:10,120 --> 00:02:13,919 Speaker 1: band were dead and can't respond, and then the one 41 00:02:13,919 --> 00:02:17,160 Speaker 1: guy who was alive Garth Hudson isn't interviewed, and he's 42 00:02:17,200 --> 00:02:19,520 Speaker 1: not saying much. Well, he's not and he's I mean, 43 00:02:19,560 --> 00:02:21,399 Speaker 1: I don't know if he was asked to be interviewed. 44 00:02:21,560 --> 00:02:24,799 Speaker 1: The movie doesn't really I think he was asked. He 45 00:02:24,160 --> 00:02:27,919 Speaker 1: he just doesn't feel like talking. He kind of does 46 00:02:27,960 --> 00:02:32,399 Speaker 1: his own thing up in uh, upstate, upstate New York. So, 47 00:02:33,160 --> 00:02:34,679 Speaker 1: I mean that's the impression I got from the movie. 48 00:02:34,720 --> 00:02:37,760 Speaker 1: There's some really cool stuff in it. Great footage. Footage 49 00:02:37,840 --> 00:02:40,680 Speaker 1: is amazing. It's it's kind of it's the flip side 50 00:02:40,720 --> 00:02:44,000 Speaker 1: of the Levon Helm documentary From and In and for 51 00:02:44,080 --> 00:02:46,760 Speaker 1: My Health in every sense of the word. You've got 52 00:02:47,000 --> 00:02:52,040 Speaker 1: Robbie's documentary is incredibly slick, well produced. You had Ron Howard, 53 00:02:52,120 --> 00:02:57,480 Speaker 1: Martin Scorsese as executive producers, all sorts of high profile friends, 54 00:02:57,520 --> 00:03:02,240 Speaker 1: Bruce Springsteen, Eric Clapton, uh, just so many people in there. 55 00:03:02,760 --> 00:03:05,600 Speaker 1: It tells the story of the band's glory days, from 56 00:03:05,840 --> 00:03:09,200 Speaker 1: their days back and Ronny Hopkins to the last Waltz. 57 00:03:09,639 --> 00:03:13,079 Speaker 1: Then you have Levan's documentary, very personal, very intimate, very 58 00:03:13,080 --> 00:03:17,560 Speaker 1: sort of handheld, and it's his his last days, essentially 59 00:03:18,440 --> 00:03:20,920 Speaker 1: brutal footage of him in the doctor's office having his 60 00:03:21,000 --> 00:03:24,240 Speaker 1: throat checked out for cancer just really raw and rough, 61 00:03:24,280 --> 00:03:28,480 Speaker 1: and I think those two documentaries really underscore the difference 62 00:03:28,480 --> 00:03:32,799 Speaker 1: between the two men. You've got this brutal, almost personal, 63 00:03:33,120 --> 00:03:36,000 Speaker 1: unflattering in a way documentary from lev On and then 64 00:03:36,040 --> 00:03:39,360 Speaker 1: this very very, very slick, polished I don't want to 65 00:03:39,360 --> 00:03:41,240 Speaker 1: say Hollywood, but that's kind of the perfect word for 66 00:03:41,400 --> 00:03:44,920 Speaker 1: documentary from Robbie, and I as a fan, I enjoyed 67 00:03:44,960 --> 00:03:46,880 Speaker 1: them both. But you're right, it's not gonna bring any 68 00:03:46,920 --> 00:03:48,880 Speaker 1: closure to people who are a team lev On or 69 00:03:48,920 --> 00:03:51,640 Speaker 1: team Robbie. Yeah, in a way, you wish that maybe 70 00:03:51,640 --> 00:03:54,400 Speaker 1: they could edit those two movies together to get a 71 00:03:54,440 --> 00:03:59,320 Speaker 1: monster a band documentary, But I think, I think Jordan, 72 00:03:59,360 --> 00:04:03,680 Speaker 1: it comes down on us to offer the truly comprehensive 73 00:04:04,160 --> 00:04:08,680 Speaker 1: and uh nonpartisan view of this feud. So let's get 74 00:04:08,680 --> 00:04:16,440 Speaker 1: into this mess. Leave on Helm, the drummer of the band. 75 00:04:16,480 --> 00:04:19,560 Speaker 1: He's born in nineteen in a lane, Arkansas. He grows 76 00:04:19,640 --> 00:04:23,320 Speaker 1: up in a town called Turkey Scratch, which you can't 77 00:04:23,320 --> 00:04:25,000 Speaker 1: make that. You can't make that. I feel like that 78 00:04:25,000 --> 00:04:27,600 Speaker 1: should be the name of a band album, you know, 79 00:04:27,680 --> 00:04:33,479 Speaker 1: Turkey Scratch. So Levan basically grows up around some of 80 00:04:33,480 --> 00:04:36,480 Speaker 1: the most iconic American music of the twentieth century. When 81 00:04:36,480 --> 00:04:39,440 Speaker 1: he's six years old, he sees Bill Monroe in his 82 00:04:39,480 --> 00:04:43,560 Speaker 1: Bluegrass Boys, and that inspires him to become a musician. 83 00:04:44,120 --> 00:04:46,719 Speaker 1: And as he's growing up, he sees all manner of 84 00:04:47,120 --> 00:04:50,680 Speaker 1: icons of great blues and early rock and roll and 85 00:04:51,279 --> 00:04:55,360 Speaker 1: R and B, people like Elvis Presley, Bo Diddley, Conway, 86 00:04:55,400 --> 00:04:59,440 Speaker 1: Twitty Sonny Boy Williamson, Sonny Boy Williamson. But perhaps the 87 00:04:59,440 --> 00:05:01,680 Speaker 1: most import orton encounter that he has early in his 88 00:05:01,720 --> 00:05:04,479 Speaker 1: life as meeting a guy called Ronnie Hawkins who was 89 00:05:04,640 --> 00:05:08,440 Speaker 1: a regional rockabilly singer popular in the South as well 90 00:05:08,480 --> 00:05:12,919 Speaker 1: as Canada. Um And when Levan was seventeen, he was 91 00:05:13,000 --> 00:05:17,560 Speaker 1: invited to join Ronnie's band. And it's interesting at that 92 00:05:17,560 --> 00:05:19,640 Speaker 1: time because, like I said, they played a lot in 93 00:05:19,680 --> 00:05:22,120 Speaker 1: the South, and they played in Canada like these were 94 00:05:22,160 --> 00:05:25,000 Speaker 1: like the rockabilly strongholds of like the late fifties and 95 00:05:25,080 --> 00:05:31,039 Speaker 1: early sixties. So at one point they're playing up in Toronto, Canada, 96 00:05:31,360 --> 00:05:36,359 Speaker 1: and Ronnie comes across this guitar player playing in the band. 97 00:05:36,400 --> 00:05:41,120 Speaker 1: I believe the band was called the Swedes. Went through 98 00:05:41,160 --> 00:05:43,760 Speaker 1: many different incarnations, but in in in fifty nine when 99 00:05:43,839 --> 00:05:47,039 Speaker 1: hawkinstaw then they were called the Swedes and the guitar 100 00:05:47,160 --> 00:05:51,200 Speaker 1: player's name was Jamie Robertson, but of course he would 101 00:05:51,560 --> 00:05:53,840 Speaker 1: be known to the world later on as Robbie Robertson. 102 00:05:54,520 --> 00:05:56,800 Speaker 1: And in the early sixties, I mean he is one 103 00:05:56,839 --> 00:06:00,680 Speaker 1: of the great sort of white rock blues guitar players 104 00:06:00,680 --> 00:06:02,800 Speaker 1: at that time. Like and again this is like even 105 00:06:02,839 --> 00:06:08,320 Speaker 1: before like someone like Eric Clapton was doing the Sutton records. Um, 106 00:06:08,320 --> 00:06:11,320 Speaker 1: so he joins Ronnie Hawkins band and this is the 107 00:06:11,360 --> 00:06:16,159 Speaker 1: beginning of of of Robbie and Levan's partnership. By x one, 108 00:06:16,640 --> 00:06:20,760 Speaker 1: Hawkins band has recruited other Canadian musicians into his band, 109 00:06:20,800 --> 00:06:26,159 Speaker 1: including Garth Hudson, Rick Danko, and Richard Manuel. And this 110 00:06:26,240 --> 00:06:29,360 Speaker 1: is the classic lineup of the band known as the Hawks. 111 00:06:29,880 --> 00:06:31,520 Speaker 1: And of course this this is the group that will 112 00:06:31,560 --> 00:06:35,520 Speaker 1: become the band moving forward into like the mid sixties, 113 00:06:35,640 --> 00:06:37,640 Speaker 1: The Hawks, they end up being on their own. They're 114 00:06:37,680 --> 00:06:40,719 Speaker 1: playing clubs. They're this sort of bluesy rock R and 115 00:06:40,760 --> 00:06:43,000 Speaker 1: B band. They get to know a guy named John 116 00:06:43,040 --> 00:06:47,360 Speaker 1: Hammond who is a sort of a folk blue singer. 117 00:06:47,640 --> 00:06:50,280 Speaker 1: He makes a record in sixty four called So Many Roads, 118 00:06:50,640 --> 00:06:52,880 Speaker 1: which is a really good record, by the way, and 119 00:06:53,040 --> 00:06:56,200 Speaker 1: Robbie's guitar playing on that record is really great. That's 120 00:06:56,240 --> 00:06:59,440 Speaker 1: how the Hawks come to the attention of a guy 121 00:06:59,480 --> 00:07:03,159 Speaker 1: called Bob Dylan, and Bob Dylan is loves this band 122 00:07:03,160 --> 00:07:05,279 Speaker 1: and decides that he's going to hire them for his 123 00:07:05,360 --> 00:07:08,240 Speaker 1: first electric tour in the mid sixties. And of course 124 00:07:08,279 --> 00:07:12,400 Speaker 1: we all know Dylan in The Hawks six one of 125 00:07:12,400 --> 00:07:16,360 Speaker 1: the most legendary rock tours of all time. And I'm 126 00:07:16,400 --> 00:07:19,640 Speaker 1: sure you've dug deep into those recordings. I mean, they're phenomenal. 127 00:07:19,680 --> 00:07:21,160 Speaker 1: It's like some of the best live rock and roll 128 00:07:21,320 --> 00:07:24,880 Speaker 1: of all time, and it helps to create the legend 129 00:07:24,920 --> 00:07:28,880 Speaker 1: around this band. By the end of that tour, the 130 00:07:28,920 --> 00:07:32,560 Speaker 1: Hawks are up in Woodstock. They're starting to do their 131 00:07:32,560 --> 00:07:34,680 Speaker 1: own thing. They have their own record contract, they're trying 132 00:07:34,720 --> 00:07:37,160 Speaker 1: to figure out what they're gonna do. They're also collaborating 133 00:07:37,160 --> 00:07:40,480 Speaker 1: with Bob Dylan on what will eventually be known as 134 00:07:40,520 --> 00:07:44,560 Speaker 1: the Basement Tapes. Finally, they emerge as the band and 135 00:07:45,480 --> 00:07:48,400 Speaker 1: with an album called Music from Big Pink. Perhaps you've 136 00:07:48,440 --> 00:07:51,200 Speaker 1: heard it, Jordan's it's a pretty good album. A little 137 00:07:51,240 --> 00:07:55,320 Speaker 1: bit of it. It's pretty good. It's pretty good that 138 00:07:55,400 --> 00:07:57,760 Speaker 1: comes down and sixty nine they put out their self 139 00:07:57,760 --> 00:08:01,320 Speaker 1: titled record known as the Brown Record, which I think 140 00:08:01,520 --> 00:08:04,400 Speaker 1: is one of the greatest albums ever made, certainly one 141 00:08:04,400 --> 00:08:08,400 Speaker 1: of my favorite albums. And those two albums, more than anything, 142 00:08:08,600 --> 00:08:12,600 Speaker 1: create this mythology around the band as one of the 143 00:08:12,760 --> 00:08:17,960 Speaker 1: great sort of melting pots of American music that's ever existed, 144 00:08:18,160 --> 00:08:23,440 Speaker 1: pulling from blues, bluegrass, R and B, folk music, early 145 00:08:23,560 --> 00:08:25,920 Speaker 1: rock and roll, every kind of music that you would 146 00:08:25,920 --> 00:08:29,680 Speaker 1: want to hear on one record in synthesizing it in 147 00:08:29,760 --> 00:08:34,160 Speaker 1: this group where unlike most bands, you know, there's no 148 00:08:34,240 --> 00:08:38,000 Speaker 1: one vocal point. Everyone is on an equal playing field, 149 00:08:38,080 --> 00:08:41,640 Speaker 1: everyone is everyone is a star in this band, and 150 00:08:42,400 --> 00:08:47,040 Speaker 1: not only three singers, drummers, and more than just sort 151 00:08:47,040 --> 00:08:50,480 Speaker 1: of the musical melting pot. It really started the sort 152 00:08:50,480 --> 00:08:54,679 Speaker 1: of the mythology of bands going off into the country 153 00:08:54,679 --> 00:08:57,320 Speaker 1: and kind of being like a musical commune in a way. Right, 154 00:08:57,440 --> 00:09:00,559 Speaker 1: there's that whole cliche, Now I'm going going to get 155 00:09:00,600 --> 00:09:02,160 Speaker 1: it together in the country, But they were sort of 156 00:09:02,200 --> 00:09:05,120 Speaker 1: the first or really literally go do that, and um 157 00:09:05,720 --> 00:09:09,320 Speaker 1: lived together famously in the the Big Pink House in 158 00:09:09,720 --> 00:09:12,719 Speaker 1: in Socrates. There was something very metaphorical about them, I 159 00:09:12,760 --> 00:09:15,240 Speaker 1: think in the sixties where like people looked at them 160 00:09:15,320 --> 00:09:18,440 Speaker 1: not just as a great band, but as like, you know, 161 00:09:18,559 --> 00:09:21,360 Speaker 1: this is like this represents like what society should be, 162 00:09:21,400 --> 00:09:24,880 Speaker 1: the sort of equitarian, utopian we're all in it together, 163 00:09:25,000 --> 00:09:29,320 Speaker 1: all for one, one for all. Uh, you know, no leaders, 164 00:09:29,360 --> 00:09:32,640 Speaker 1: no egos, you know, living off the land. We're gonna 165 00:09:32,840 --> 00:09:36,720 Speaker 1: dress like we're you know, Blacksmiths from the eighteen nineties, 166 00:09:37,320 --> 00:09:39,120 Speaker 1: and it's gonna be great, you know, and this can 167 00:09:39,160 --> 00:09:40,880 Speaker 1: just go on forever, right, we can just live in 168 00:09:40,880 --> 00:09:44,360 Speaker 1: this utopian world. Uh. And it was the era of 169 00:09:44,400 --> 00:09:47,040 Speaker 1: Virtuoso's too. You had like clapped In and Cream and 170 00:09:47,080 --> 00:09:49,840 Speaker 1: Hendrix and they, as you're saying, no stars in this 171 00:09:49,920 --> 00:09:53,760 Speaker 1: band at all, they all, i mean just really share 172 00:09:53,800 --> 00:09:56,800 Speaker 1: the limelight together. It didn't work without the five of them. 173 00:09:56,840 --> 00:09:59,200 Speaker 1: So you have this great, this great set up with 174 00:09:59,200 --> 00:10:03,800 Speaker 1: the first two records. But of course nothing can last forever, 175 00:10:03,920 --> 00:10:07,920 Speaker 1: certainly not a utopian situation. And by the early seventies 176 00:10:08,280 --> 00:10:11,120 Speaker 1: you start to see a couple of different things take 177 00:10:11,200 --> 00:10:14,960 Speaker 1: hold in the band. Number one, Robbie Robertson starts to 178 00:10:15,040 --> 00:10:18,960 Speaker 1: become the dominant creative force in the group, whereas like 179 00:10:19,000 --> 00:10:22,160 Speaker 1: on the first couple of records, Richard Manuel was writing songs, 180 00:10:22,480 --> 00:10:28,000 Speaker 1: Rick Danko was writing songs. Robbie is now writing most, 181 00:10:28,080 --> 00:10:31,040 Speaker 1: if not all, the songs on band records, which is 182 00:10:31,120 --> 00:10:34,040 Speaker 1: not only a sign of his creative dominance, but there 183 00:10:34,120 --> 00:10:36,400 Speaker 1: is also going to become a sign of his financial 184 00:10:36,640 --> 00:10:40,840 Speaker 1: dominance because he has a line chair of the publishing um, 185 00:10:40,880 --> 00:10:43,640 Speaker 1: so you have that taking place. The other thing that's 186 00:10:43,679 --> 00:10:47,480 Speaker 1: taking place is drug abuse, and alcohol abuse is becoming 187 00:10:47,679 --> 00:10:51,240 Speaker 1: a major deal, especially with the three singers in the band, 188 00:10:51,240 --> 00:10:55,200 Speaker 1: which again are leve On, Richard Manuel, and Rick Danko. 189 00:10:56,200 --> 00:10:58,200 Speaker 1: And I think it's fair to say that for a 190 00:10:58,200 --> 00:11:00,199 Speaker 1: lot of us who love the band, that those three 191 00:11:00,240 --> 00:11:02,240 Speaker 1: guys are like the heart and soul of the band. 192 00:11:02,440 --> 00:11:05,920 Speaker 1: Like they're the three coolest guys. You know. They kind 193 00:11:05,920 --> 00:11:09,040 Speaker 1: of defined the band ethos. You know, it's like like 194 00:11:09,440 --> 00:11:11,920 Speaker 1: you want to be probably one of those three guys 195 00:11:11,960 --> 00:11:15,920 Speaker 1: more than anybody else. Right, Robbie and Garth were the brains, 196 00:11:15,920 --> 00:11:18,559 Speaker 1: and I feel like Rick, Richard and lev On were 197 00:11:18,600 --> 00:11:20,800 Speaker 1: the heart. I think that's a very fair assessment and 198 00:11:20,800 --> 00:11:24,280 Speaker 1: the soul um and and as you said, the the 199 00:11:24,280 --> 00:11:29,040 Speaker 1: the drugs sort of correlated to Robbie taking over because 200 00:11:29,040 --> 00:11:31,280 Speaker 1: he was the only one who really didn't indulge to 201 00:11:31,320 --> 00:11:34,200 Speaker 1: the same degree that those three did. And they were 202 00:11:34,240 --> 00:11:37,280 Speaker 1: the three chief songwriters along with Robbie, and so when 203 00:11:37,320 --> 00:11:40,520 Speaker 1: they just weren't really able to to contribute in the 204 00:11:40,559 --> 00:11:44,959 Speaker 1: same way that they had, he picked up the slack um. 205 00:11:45,040 --> 00:11:48,800 Speaker 1: And that's kind of the main sticking point between uh, 206 00:11:49,040 --> 00:11:52,080 Speaker 1: Team leave On and Team Robbie was did he just 207 00:11:52,080 --> 00:11:54,200 Speaker 1: sort of elbow his way in there and and throw 208 00:11:54,240 --> 00:11:57,360 Speaker 1: his weight around and demand the right the songs. No, 209 00:11:57,520 --> 00:11:59,920 Speaker 1: he was writing it because, as he said, and even 210 00:12:00,080 --> 00:12:02,720 Speaker 1: other guys would say too, that they weren't able to 211 00:12:02,760 --> 00:12:04,120 Speaker 1: write at that time. They were in the throes of 212 00:12:04,160 --> 00:12:06,360 Speaker 1: their addictions and it just wasn't happening all righty, and 213 00:12:06,440 --> 00:12:19,439 Speaker 1: we'll be right back with more rivals. So these dynamics 214 00:12:19,440 --> 00:12:23,480 Speaker 1: are in play in the band as the seventies progress, 215 00:12:23,600 --> 00:12:26,319 Speaker 1: and as the band is starting to lose some steam 216 00:12:26,320 --> 00:12:31,720 Speaker 1: creatively and commercially, Which brings us to nineteen seventy six 217 00:12:32,240 --> 00:12:35,560 Speaker 1: and probably the most famous thing that the band is 218 00:12:35,559 --> 00:12:38,760 Speaker 1: associated with. I would say, um, certainly I know for 219 00:12:38,840 --> 00:12:40,920 Speaker 1: me when I first started listening to the band, that 220 00:12:41,120 --> 00:12:44,040 Speaker 1: this was my introduction like in seventy six, they played 221 00:12:44,040 --> 00:12:47,880 Speaker 1: this big concert at winter Land in San Francisco called 222 00:12:47,880 --> 00:12:50,280 Speaker 1: The Last Waltz, And the idea was that they were 223 00:12:50,280 --> 00:12:52,559 Speaker 1: going to play this concert and it was going to 224 00:12:52,640 --> 00:12:55,360 Speaker 1: be a farewell. You know, we're gonna break up, but 225 00:12:55,400 --> 00:12:57,640 Speaker 1: we're gonna end by playing this big party, and we're 226 00:12:57,640 --> 00:13:01,400 Speaker 1: gonna invite all of our friends, including Dylan Van Morrison, 227 00:13:02,160 --> 00:13:05,840 Speaker 1: Neil Young, Joni Mitchell, Eric Clapton, Buddy Waters, just an 228 00:13:05,880 --> 00:13:08,880 Speaker 1: incredible lineup of artists. And I remember, like when I 229 00:13:08,920 --> 00:13:12,400 Speaker 1: first heard about this, you know, as a young classic 230 00:13:12,520 --> 00:13:15,280 Speaker 1: rock student, you know, when I was a teenager, I thought, well, 231 00:13:15,320 --> 00:13:18,080 Speaker 1: what an awesome idea, Like that's a really cool idea. 232 00:13:18,280 --> 00:13:20,000 Speaker 1: And then I saw the movie that came out in 233 00:13:20,040 --> 00:13:22,640 Speaker 1: seventy eight, uh, you know, and I saw it many 234 00:13:22,720 --> 00:13:27,200 Speaker 1: years after that and directed by Martin Scorsese. It's an 235 00:13:27,240 --> 00:13:29,840 Speaker 1: incredible movie, like one of the greatest rock movies ever made. 236 00:13:30,360 --> 00:13:34,400 Speaker 1: And I had no idea until years later that this 237 00:13:34,480 --> 00:13:38,760 Speaker 1: movie is in a way at the heart of the 238 00:13:38,840 --> 00:13:41,600 Speaker 1: conflict between Robbie and Levan. I mean, is that fair 239 00:13:41,640 --> 00:13:43,600 Speaker 1: to say? I mean I feel like it is really 240 00:13:43,640 --> 00:13:45,400 Speaker 1: no one else in the band wanted to stop. But 241 00:13:45,480 --> 00:13:48,600 Speaker 1: but Robbie Robertson, and there's two ways to look at it. 242 00:13:49,080 --> 00:13:50,880 Speaker 1: You have the leve On point of view of Robbie 243 00:13:50,920 --> 00:13:54,160 Speaker 1: was getting he had a enormous interest in film, and 244 00:13:54,200 --> 00:13:58,120 Speaker 1: he was getting closer to and he saw um Martin 245 00:13:58,120 --> 00:14:00,640 Speaker 1: Scorsese as an entree into that war old into the 246 00:14:01,120 --> 00:14:06,040 Speaker 1: very lucrative world of doing film scores and soundtrack supervision 247 00:14:06,040 --> 00:14:08,920 Speaker 1: and stuff like that, and just basically going Hollywood and 248 00:14:09,200 --> 00:14:12,679 Speaker 1: probably in Levans eyes, selling out. But then you have 249 00:14:12,840 --> 00:14:15,280 Speaker 1: Robbie's point of view of you know what, I'm I'm tired, 250 00:14:15,320 --> 00:14:17,840 Speaker 1: I'm doing a lot of work. I'm I'm shouldering the 251 00:14:17,880 --> 00:14:20,720 Speaker 1: psychic burden of all these guys who are really falling apart. 252 00:14:21,120 --> 00:14:25,120 Speaker 1: Richard Manuel in particular, was living in um Mr Eds 253 00:14:25,160 --> 00:14:29,200 Speaker 1: converted uh stable down on a beach in Malibu, just 254 00:14:29,320 --> 00:14:32,600 Speaker 1: drinking bottles and bottles of you know, it was when 255 00:14:32,600 --> 00:14:34,520 Speaker 1: they had the horse Mr Read on TV. That was 256 00:14:34,560 --> 00:14:37,280 Speaker 1: his stable. They Richard Manuel living there, just just putting 257 00:14:37,280 --> 00:14:39,840 Speaker 1: away like six seven eight bottles of what was it 258 00:14:39,920 --> 00:14:43,640 Speaker 1: Grand Marnier something like that a day. Just really the 259 00:14:43,720 --> 00:14:47,720 Speaker 1: vibe was extremely bad, and Robbie had to do a 260 00:14:47,760 --> 00:14:50,080 Speaker 1: lot of work to keep it running, and the actual 261 00:14:50,240 --> 00:14:54,320 Speaker 1: touring it was, in his eyes, really dangerous. He was 262 00:14:54,400 --> 00:14:57,640 Speaker 1: worried about not only the drugs, but just the actual 263 00:14:57,640 --> 00:15:01,120 Speaker 1: practical matters of getting around plane crashes and stuff like that. Well, yeah, 264 00:15:01,080 --> 00:15:03,280 Speaker 1: when when you watch the movie, there's like a lot 265 00:15:03,320 --> 00:15:06,320 Speaker 1: of interview clips of like Robbie Robertson looking very serious 266 00:15:06,440 --> 00:15:10,680 Speaker 1: and he's saying, you know, sixteen years, fifteen years years 267 00:15:10,680 --> 00:15:14,479 Speaker 1: on the road, sixteen years on the road, man, Jimmy 268 00:15:14,720 --> 00:15:19,800 Speaker 1: Janice Elvis. You know they didn't make it man, you know, 269 00:15:19,840 --> 00:15:21,960 Speaker 1: and he's like very world weary. And I remember watching 270 00:15:21,960 --> 00:15:25,320 Speaker 1: that movie as a teenager and just thinking like wow, 271 00:15:25,360 --> 00:15:27,920 Speaker 1: this is like so heavy and this is so real, 272 00:15:28,000 --> 00:15:30,800 Speaker 1: and just thinking like Robbie Robertson looks so cool because 273 00:15:30,840 --> 00:15:33,280 Speaker 1: his hair is like very well quaffed and he's wearing 274 00:15:33,280 --> 00:15:36,240 Speaker 1: this like cool leather jacket and just being like, well, man, 275 00:15:36,360 --> 00:15:39,240 Speaker 1: like Robbie Robertson, like this is his band, because you 276 00:15:39,280 --> 00:15:42,120 Speaker 1: watched that movie, and like it's just Robbie Robertson all 277 00:15:42,120 --> 00:15:45,640 Speaker 1: the time, Like the cameras always cutting Robbie on stage. 278 00:15:46,200 --> 00:15:49,360 Speaker 1: He's the main person being interviewed. I don't even know 279 00:15:49,400 --> 00:15:51,760 Speaker 1: if I knew about Richard Manuel because Richard Manuel is 280 00:15:51,880 --> 00:15:54,600 Speaker 1: barely in the movie, barely in it, and I think 281 00:15:54,640 --> 00:15:56,920 Speaker 1: and I think there was some idea of like preservation, 282 00:15:58,040 --> 00:16:00,400 Speaker 1: uh you know that because because man, you was in 283 00:16:00,480 --> 00:16:04,120 Speaker 1: rough shape at that time, and maybe there was some 284 00:16:04,200 --> 00:16:06,560 Speaker 1: idea that we need to protect him and not show 285 00:16:07,160 --> 00:16:09,440 Speaker 1: him in this movie. But it ended up creating this 286 00:16:09,480 --> 00:16:11,800 Speaker 1: impression when you watch it that like Robbie is the 287 00:16:11,800 --> 00:16:14,880 Speaker 1: main person. And I know for me, like I wasn't 288 00:16:14,920 --> 00:16:18,280 Speaker 1: aware of how certainly how Levin felt about it until 289 00:16:18,520 --> 00:16:21,840 Speaker 1: he put out his book This Wheels on Fire, which 290 00:16:21,840 --> 00:16:24,680 Speaker 1: came out. Have you have you read This Wheels on Fire? 291 00:16:24,880 --> 00:16:27,440 Speaker 1: Excellent book? Yes, And and he talks about a confrontation 292 00:16:27,480 --> 00:16:31,080 Speaker 1: between Robbie and himself when they talk about ending the band, 293 00:16:31,200 --> 00:16:33,440 Speaker 1: and Robbie says, exactly what you said. You know, we've 294 00:16:33,440 --> 00:16:36,160 Speaker 1: been doing this sixteen years and it's it's it's dangerous. 295 00:16:36,160 --> 00:16:38,840 Speaker 1: This is not a healthy way of living. And what 296 00:16:38,960 --> 00:16:41,000 Speaker 1: is what is Levan say? He said, I'm not in 297 00:16:41,000 --> 00:16:43,720 Speaker 1: it for my health. I'm a musician and I want 298 00:16:43,720 --> 00:16:45,720 Speaker 1: to live the way I do, which is you know 299 00:16:46,680 --> 00:16:48,720 Speaker 1: that ended up being the name of his documentary, like 300 00:16:48,800 --> 00:16:51,200 Speaker 1: not in it for my health or ain't it Ain't 301 00:16:51,200 --> 00:16:53,600 Speaker 1: in it for my health is the name of the documentary. 302 00:16:53,640 --> 00:16:58,840 Speaker 1: But yeah, I mean Levin basically leve On not only 303 00:17:00,160 --> 00:17:02,160 Speaker 1: you know, disputes the idea that he wanted to break 304 00:17:02,240 --> 00:17:04,520 Speaker 1: up the band or that this was a decision that 305 00:17:04,560 --> 00:17:07,920 Speaker 1: everyone agreed on. He also like talks serious shit about 306 00:17:07,960 --> 00:17:11,760 Speaker 1: the movie, like he hates the movie, which was really 307 00:17:11,760 --> 00:17:14,280 Speaker 1: shocking for me to read, like when I first read 308 00:17:14,320 --> 00:17:17,000 Speaker 1: this book. But he talks about, first of all, he 309 00:17:17,040 --> 00:17:20,760 Speaker 1: called he refers to Martin Scorsese as the dummy, calls 310 00:17:20,800 --> 00:17:24,399 Speaker 1: him a dummy, And I mean, I think he was 311 00:17:24,440 --> 00:17:27,840 Speaker 1: mad because Scorsese and Robertson were such good friends, and 312 00:17:27,880 --> 00:17:31,439 Speaker 1: I'm sure that was very threatening to him because he 313 00:17:31,520 --> 00:17:35,000 Speaker 1: knew that that was going to affect how the movie 314 00:17:35,040 --> 00:17:38,040 Speaker 1: came out, which it absolutely did. But you know, he 315 00:17:38,119 --> 00:17:41,960 Speaker 1: complains about how Scorsese, in his mind, missed a lot 316 00:17:42,000 --> 00:17:44,200 Speaker 1: of the great things about that concert, like he didn't 317 00:17:44,240 --> 00:17:46,800 Speaker 1: shoot any of the dress rehearsals or any of the 318 00:17:46,840 --> 00:17:50,920 Speaker 1: behind the scenes stuff that Helm writes about. He said 319 00:17:50,920 --> 00:17:53,240 Speaker 1: that that was some of the best parts of that night. 320 00:17:54,680 --> 00:17:58,280 Speaker 1: He says that Scorsese came very close to not shooting 321 00:17:58,480 --> 00:18:02,880 Speaker 1: the Muddy Waters performance because in favor of Neil Diamond, 322 00:18:03,119 --> 00:18:05,440 Speaker 1: right exactly. Well, and if you watch the movie, and 323 00:18:05,440 --> 00:18:07,639 Speaker 1: I didn't realize this until I read the book, but 324 00:18:07,760 --> 00:18:11,080 Speaker 1: if you watch the movie the Muddy Waters performance, it's 325 00:18:11,080 --> 00:18:14,280 Speaker 1: all one shot and it's because they only had one 326 00:18:14,400 --> 00:18:19,320 Speaker 1: camera on him, and so it's just and it ends 327 00:18:19,400 --> 00:18:22,520 Speaker 1: up being fine because it's such a riveting performance, but 328 00:18:22,600 --> 00:18:26,080 Speaker 1: like cinematically, it's a little boring because it's just one 329 00:18:26,160 --> 00:18:29,159 Speaker 1: sort of like head shot for about five or six minutes. 330 00:18:29,880 --> 00:18:32,120 Speaker 1: And uh, but yeah, they didn't have any any other 331 00:18:32,160 --> 00:18:37,200 Speaker 1: cameras going, but they did have the whole fleet going 332 00:18:37,240 --> 00:18:39,800 Speaker 1: for Neil Diamond. And by the and and you know, like, look, 333 00:18:39,840 --> 00:18:41,400 Speaker 1: I like Neil Diamond. I don't want to take shots 334 00:18:41,400 --> 00:18:43,840 Speaker 1: at Neil Diamond, but like he Lemon takes a lot 335 00:18:43,880 --> 00:18:47,280 Speaker 1: of shots at Neil Diamond because and I think justifiably, 336 00:18:47,320 --> 00:18:49,959 Speaker 1: because he's like, why is Neil Diamond here? You know, 337 00:18:50,040 --> 00:18:53,240 Speaker 1: like these are everybody that's on the lineup are friends 338 00:18:53,240 --> 00:18:55,399 Speaker 1: of there's not a huge role in their musical history. 339 00:18:55,840 --> 00:18:58,320 Speaker 1: And then there's Neil Diamond. And Robbie says, oh no, 340 00:18:58,400 --> 00:19:00,520 Speaker 1: he represents this sort of brill Bill thing era of 341 00:19:00,560 --> 00:19:03,320 Speaker 1: songwriting that was a huge influence on me. And then 342 00:19:03,320 --> 00:19:06,919 Speaker 1: it comes out that Robbie's producing a album for him 343 00:19:06,960 --> 00:19:10,000 Speaker 1: at the time, and Neil Diamond actually performs the song 344 00:19:10,080 --> 00:19:14,720 Speaker 1: that Robbie wrote for him on the soundtrack and probably 345 00:19:15,280 --> 00:19:19,320 Speaker 1: Robbie not to not to take shots, but probably earned 346 00:19:19,400 --> 00:19:22,200 Speaker 1: Robbie some extra money, so you know, I mean, it 347 00:19:22,560 --> 00:19:26,480 Speaker 1: was definitely if if you're gonna cut one of the 348 00:19:26,520 --> 00:19:30,719 Speaker 1: greatest blues musicians of all time, for Neil Diamond doing 349 00:19:30,760 --> 00:19:32,960 Speaker 1: a song that is even one of his hits, Yeah, 350 00:19:33,040 --> 00:19:35,720 Speaker 1: that's a pretty uh, that's a that's a that's a 351 00:19:35,760 --> 00:19:39,040 Speaker 1: bold way to go um and something I just want 352 00:19:39,040 --> 00:19:41,680 Speaker 1: to say to just when we're talking about Robbie's perceived 353 00:19:41,680 --> 00:19:45,280 Speaker 1: dominance in the film, it's important to note that when 354 00:19:45,600 --> 00:19:48,720 Speaker 1: Robbie first joined the Hawks in the early sixties, leave 355 00:19:48,800 --> 00:19:50,880 Speaker 1: On was sort of the old hand there. He took 356 00:19:50,920 --> 00:19:52,880 Speaker 1: him under his wing and really showed him the ropes. 357 00:19:52,920 --> 00:19:54,240 Speaker 1: I mean, Robbie was this. I mean, he was a 358 00:19:54,280 --> 00:19:57,120 Speaker 1: great guitar player, but he was a young, inexperienced kid. 359 00:19:57,600 --> 00:19:59,320 Speaker 1: And then all through the early sixties, when they broke 360 00:19:59,359 --> 00:20:02,280 Speaker 1: away from Ronnie Hopkins, the band was called lev On 361 00:20:02,480 --> 00:20:04,840 Speaker 1: and the Hawks. It was very much his band. All 362 00:20:04,840 --> 00:20:08,159 Speaker 1: those early contracts were in his name. It was it 363 00:20:08,280 --> 00:20:10,199 Speaker 1: was he was kind of running the show in a 364 00:20:10,200 --> 00:20:12,320 Speaker 1: lot of ways. And then when they were on the 365 00:20:12,320 --> 00:20:15,399 Speaker 1: Bob Dylan tour in uh in sixty five and getting 366 00:20:15,440 --> 00:20:19,520 Speaker 1: booed all over England, uh leve On quit. He went 367 00:20:19,560 --> 00:20:21,720 Speaker 1: and famously went down to New Orleans to work on 368 00:20:21,760 --> 00:20:24,080 Speaker 1: an oil rig and because he just couldn't. He didn't 369 00:20:24,160 --> 00:20:27,720 Speaker 1: understand why they were just music supposed to make people 370 00:20:27,760 --> 00:20:31,879 Speaker 1: happy and feel good now but just going slogan trapes 371 00:20:31,880 --> 00:20:34,120 Speaker 1: and all over Europe, just getting booed, and he didn't 372 00:20:34,119 --> 00:20:36,000 Speaker 1: really see much of the point of it. And that 373 00:20:36,119 --> 00:20:40,480 Speaker 1: was kind of the moment when the band wasn't his anymore. 374 00:20:41,080 --> 00:20:44,199 Speaker 1: And it kind of also speaks to their both of 375 00:20:44,200 --> 00:20:47,680 Speaker 1: their approaches to music. Leave On wants music to feel good, 376 00:20:47,760 --> 00:20:50,200 Speaker 1: make people happy. Robbie was sort of willing to do 377 00:20:50,320 --> 00:20:54,160 Speaker 1: whatever it took and become friendly with whatever it took, 378 00:20:54,320 --> 00:20:57,119 Speaker 1: be it Bob Dylan, his manager Albert Grossman, who became 379 00:20:57,200 --> 00:20:59,920 Speaker 1: the band's manager and was hugely influential in their their 380 00:21:00,160 --> 00:21:04,359 Speaker 1: career and their financial dealings, and later on Martin Scorsese, 381 00:21:04,520 --> 00:21:08,199 Speaker 1: he Robbie was very good at at convincing hit people 382 00:21:08,560 --> 00:21:11,320 Speaker 1: that he was also really really hip and ingratiating himself 383 00:21:11,359 --> 00:21:15,880 Speaker 1: with him. So for leve On later on, who remembers 384 00:21:15,920 --> 00:21:18,760 Speaker 1: this kid as being this young sixteen seventeen year old 385 00:21:18,760 --> 00:21:22,600 Speaker 1: Canadian kid who knew nothing about in a personal sense, 386 00:21:23,359 --> 00:21:25,199 Speaker 1: Southern rock and roll and all the stuff that he 387 00:21:25,240 --> 00:21:27,840 Speaker 1: loved to play, it must have been particularly galling. I 388 00:21:27,840 --> 00:21:29,760 Speaker 1: mean for all the guys in the band, but especially 389 00:21:29,760 --> 00:21:32,240 Speaker 1: someone like Levin who remembers him as this this young, 390 00:21:32,280 --> 00:21:35,960 Speaker 1: inexperienced kid, and yet with all of his misgivings about 391 00:21:35,960 --> 00:21:39,320 Speaker 1: the movie, and this blows me away about it, Levin 392 00:21:39,680 --> 00:21:41,919 Speaker 1: steals the movie as far as I'm concerned. Like the 393 00:21:41,960 --> 00:21:45,000 Speaker 1: best parts of the movie are with Levin Helm And 394 00:21:45,000 --> 00:21:47,280 Speaker 1: I'm thinking of his performance of the Night they Drove 395 00:21:47,600 --> 00:21:52,840 Speaker 1: Old Dixie Down, which is incredible, Like you know, the 396 00:21:52,960 --> 00:21:56,000 Speaker 1: up on Cripple Creek is awesome, Like the part where 397 00:21:56,040 --> 00:21:58,640 Speaker 1: it's like I should because I should could, wish I could, 398 00:22:00,000 --> 00:22:02,040 Speaker 1: and do a Levin comma pression is awful. But like 399 00:22:02,560 --> 00:22:04,720 Speaker 1: he does this like drum solo and like you know, 400 00:22:04,920 --> 00:22:07,920 Speaker 1: these drum rolls, it's awesome, And like at the beginning like, baby, 401 00:22:07,920 --> 00:22:12,000 Speaker 1: don't do it, just like he looks like he looks amazing, 402 00:22:12,320 --> 00:22:15,160 Speaker 1: he sounds amazing, even like in the interviews, which in 403 00:22:15,200 --> 00:22:17,359 Speaker 1: his book he talks about how he hated doing the 404 00:22:17,400 --> 00:22:20,439 Speaker 1: interviews for the movie. He's very charming in the movie. 405 00:22:20,520 --> 00:22:23,720 Speaker 1: You know, he's talking about like the you know, back 406 00:22:23,760 --> 00:22:27,639 Speaker 1: in Arkansas going to see you know, old blues people, 407 00:22:27,680 --> 00:22:29,359 Speaker 1: and like the lights would go down and the girls 408 00:22:29,400 --> 00:22:31,320 Speaker 1: would start shaking it and all that kind of stuff. 409 00:22:31,480 --> 00:22:34,320 Speaker 1: It's like, he's such a great storyteller and he's and 410 00:22:34,359 --> 00:22:36,560 Speaker 1: it's like, man, even if you were miserable doing this, 411 00:22:36,640 --> 00:22:39,320 Speaker 1: which he says he was, he's so charming in the movie, 412 00:22:39,359 --> 00:22:42,639 Speaker 1: and he's like such a big part of it. But again, 413 00:22:42,680 --> 00:22:44,800 Speaker 1: I think the big conflict with this movie, along with 414 00:22:44,920 --> 00:22:48,240 Speaker 1: Levin just not liking the movie itself, was this idea 415 00:22:48,320 --> 00:22:51,480 Speaker 1: that in his mind he felt that Robbie unilaterally decided 416 00:22:51,520 --> 00:22:53,960 Speaker 1: that the band was done and he didn't want it 417 00:22:54,000 --> 00:22:56,840 Speaker 1: to be done. And as a matter of fact, the 418 00:22:56,880 --> 00:23:01,400 Speaker 1: band ended up reuniting in the early eighties without Robbie 419 00:23:01,880 --> 00:23:06,000 Speaker 1: for a run that I think eventually yielded some good music, 420 00:23:06,040 --> 00:23:08,879 Speaker 1: especially as he got into the early nineties. Uh there's 421 00:23:08,920 --> 00:23:11,320 Speaker 1: like some pretty cool records I think that the band 422 00:23:11,359 --> 00:23:13,439 Speaker 1: put out at that time. They're a little underrated. But 423 00:23:13,960 --> 00:23:16,080 Speaker 1: when they first got back together in the early eighties, 424 00:23:16,119 --> 00:23:18,000 Speaker 1: it seems like it was kind of depressing. I mean 425 00:23:18,040 --> 00:23:21,200 Speaker 1: that they were playing out of the way venues, not 426 00:23:21,280 --> 00:23:25,280 Speaker 1: making a lot of money. And it all culminates with 427 00:23:25,440 --> 00:23:29,359 Speaker 1: the suicide of Richard Manuel, who ends up. I mean, 428 00:23:29,400 --> 00:23:31,359 Speaker 1: he hung himself in a hotel room while they were 429 00:23:31,400 --> 00:23:36,520 Speaker 1: on the road, which is just about the worst death 430 00:23:36,720 --> 00:23:39,960 Speaker 1: that I could imagine for a musician as great as him. 431 00:23:40,000 --> 00:23:43,240 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, absolutely heartbreaking. His wife found them and called 432 00:23:43,320 --> 00:23:47,679 Speaker 1: leave on in and that really he um in a 433 00:23:47,720 --> 00:23:52,639 Speaker 1: lot of ways blamed Robbie. He would say that it 434 00:23:52,760 --> 00:23:55,000 Speaker 1: was his fault that they were sort of doing these 435 00:23:55,040 --> 00:23:58,760 Speaker 1: out of the way places, because there's some controversy about 436 00:23:58,760 --> 00:24:01,480 Speaker 1: the last waltz in that. Robbie later said that he 437 00:24:01,480 --> 00:24:04,040 Speaker 1: didn't mean to kill the band completely. He just wanted 438 00:24:04,080 --> 00:24:06,080 Speaker 1: to get off the road. He thought that they were 439 00:24:06,119 --> 00:24:08,080 Speaker 1: all going to come he says this, and once we're brothers, 440 00:24:08,200 --> 00:24:10,159 Speaker 1: I thought we were all going to come back in 441 00:24:10,240 --> 00:24:12,639 Speaker 1: the studio and be a studio entity and continue to 442 00:24:12,680 --> 00:24:16,119 Speaker 1: make music like we had and everybody forgot to come back, 443 00:24:16,280 --> 00:24:18,639 Speaker 1: is the quote that he says in the movie. Now, 444 00:24:18,680 --> 00:24:24,720 Speaker 1: when that seems very fishy to me, because I agree, 445 00:24:24,800 --> 00:24:27,560 Speaker 1: why would you call it the Last Waltz? And why 446 00:24:27,560 --> 00:24:30,879 Speaker 1: would I don't know. There's such a feeling of finality 447 00:24:31,040 --> 00:24:33,639 Speaker 1: in that movie, not just for the band, but also 448 00:24:34,480 --> 00:24:37,200 Speaker 1: it is in a way like a wave of the 449 00:24:37,240 --> 00:24:40,520 Speaker 1: hand of the sixties too, like this generation maybe because 450 00:24:41,520 --> 00:24:44,000 Speaker 1: just the symbolism of that movie coming out when it did, 451 00:24:44,560 --> 00:24:48,000 Speaker 1: right when punk and new wave we're breaking and there 452 00:24:48,040 --> 00:24:51,080 Speaker 1: was this other generation coming and now here are all 453 00:24:51,119 --> 00:24:54,879 Speaker 1: these boomer era musicians playing a show called the Last Waltz. 454 00:24:54,920 --> 00:24:57,600 Speaker 1: Of course, none of those musicians actually retired. I mean, 455 00:24:57,640 --> 00:25:00,520 Speaker 1: they all continue to have pretty big careers after that. 456 00:25:00,600 --> 00:25:04,520 Speaker 1: But for Robbie did now say forty years later that 457 00:25:04,800 --> 00:25:08,080 Speaker 1: I wasn't actually pulling the plug on the band with 458 00:25:08,160 --> 00:25:12,680 Speaker 1: that show. I don't know. That seems pretty disingenuous to me. Oh, 459 00:25:12,720 --> 00:25:15,480 Speaker 1: I agree. So, but when the band came together in 460 00:25:15,480 --> 00:25:19,320 Speaker 1: the early eighties, um Levan considered not even inviting Robbie, 461 00:25:19,320 --> 00:25:22,000 Speaker 1: but they ended up inviting him and he refused because 462 00:25:22,000 --> 00:25:23,440 Speaker 1: he just said, you know, we just put out this 463 00:25:24,119 --> 00:25:27,560 Speaker 1: huge movie and triple discs set about how we're not 464 00:25:27,600 --> 00:25:30,080 Speaker 1: doing this anymore, and I'm like, you know, and he was, 465 00:25:30,200 --> 00:25:32,240 Speaker 1: and I'm like, and I'm like doing music for Scorsese 466 00:25:32,400 --> 00:25:34,840 Speaker 1: movies right now. I'm you know, I'm I'm scoring the 467 00:25:34,920 --> 00:25:37,840 Speaker 1: King of Comedy in after hours. I don't need to 468 00:25:37,880 --> 00:25:40,160 Speaker 1: hang out with you guys anymore. Yeah, and like some 469 00:25:40,560 --> 00:25:44,800 Speaker 1: like Orlando suburb playing like a supper club. Yeah, no, 470 00:25:44,880 --> 00:25:46,240 Speaker 1: I mean, it's it's true. I mean, that's the kind 471 00:25:46,240 --> 00:25:49,920 Speaker 1: of It's amazing to think that in five years since 472 00:25:49,920 --> 00:25:52,399 Speaker 1: the last fault, they're planning these like back water I mean, 473 00:25:52,400 --> 00:25:55,240 Speaker 1: no offense to anyone of them in the Orlando summers, 474 00:25:55,320 --> 00:25:58,000 Speaker 1: but these these little little rooms in the middle of nowhere. 475 00:25:58,200 --> 00:26:02,760 Speaker 1: And it's shocking. And and I think that between the 476 00:26:02,840 --> 00:26:06,840 Speaker 1: pressing nature the gigs, they were playing financial troubles because Robbie, 477 00:26:06,920 --> 00:26:10,639 Speaker 1: I guess, according to Levan's book, had convinced um garth 478 00:26:10,920 --> 00:26:14,600 Speaker 1: Rick and Richard to sell their shares in the band's 479 00:26:14,680 --> 00:26:17,800 Speaker 1: music to him for some short term cash, which then, 480 00:26:17,840 --> 00:26:20,120 Speaker 1: of course meant that they wouldn't get any royalties anymore, 481 00:26:20,359 --> 00:26:24,120 Speaker 1: which forced them to go out on the road and 482 00:26:24,160 --> 00:26:27,760 Speaker 1: play these kind of rough gigs. U leve On essentially 483 00:26:27,800 --> 00:26:32,440 Speaker 1: blamed Robbie for for working Uh, Richard and Rick into 484 00:26:32,480 --> 00:26:35,560 Speaker 1: the grave. Yeah, it was almost almost his exact words. 485 00:26:35,680 --> 00:26:38,119 Speaker 1: And again, like Rick Dinko ended up passing away at 486 00:26:40,080 --> 00:26:44,879 Speaker 1: UM so he very young. Yeah, and and you know, 487 00:26:44,920 --> 00:26:47,680 Speaker 1: after a lot of hard years, you know of like 488 00:26:47,760 --> 00:26:50,640 Speaker 1: drug and alcohol abuse, Uh, he ended up giving out 489 00:26:50,640 --> 00:26:53,200 Speaker 1: one again. You know, we've talked a lot about Levon's voice, 490 00:26:53,240 --> 00:26:55,080 Speaker 1: but you know, Richard and Rick two of the great 491 00:26:55,160 --> 00:26:57,800 Speaker 1: rock singers of all time. I mean, it's just amazing 492 00:26:57,840 --> 00:27:01,280 Speaker 1: that these three guys we're in the same band. I mean, 493 00:27:01,320 --> 00:27:03,480 Speaker 1: because the three of them really are like among the 494 00:27:03,520 --> 00:27:07,360 Speaker 1: greatest rock singers ever, and they each had their own qualities, 495 00:27:07,480 --> 00:27:11,399 Speaker 1: everything very distinctive. My favorite scene in the Last Waltz 496 00:27:11,440 --> 00:27:14,320 Speaker 1: is shape I'm in And I know that's like Richard's 497 00:27:14,359 --> 00:27:17,000 Speaker 1: one moment, and he does look fry all and he 498 00:27:17,080 --> 00:27:20,000 Speaker 1: does look rough, but he is the power that's still there, 499 00:27:20,119 --> 00:27:21,560 Speaker 1: even though you can see sort of fear in his 500 00:27:21,640 --> 00:27:24,159 Speaker 1: eyes and and and the pain that's there. I just 501 00:27:24,160 --> 00:27:27,280 Speaker 1: think that's an incredible perform Well, especially knowing knowing the 502 00:27:27,359 --> 00:27:29,320 Speaker 1: road that he was going down, it's all the more 503 00:27:29,359 --> 00:27:31,520 Speaker 1: amazing that he was able to give it that that 504 00:27:31,600 --> 00:27:34,040 Speaker 1: power well, and you know, and you can't say enough 505 00:27:34,080 --> 00:27:37,280 Speaker 1: about it makes no difference from the Last Waltz, which 506 00:27:37,320 --> 00:27:42,120 Speaker 1: is the definitive performance of that song. And I love 507 00:27:42,160 --> 00:27:44,600 Speaker 1: that scene in a way. A scene that's even more 508 00:27:44,640 --> 00:27:48,879 Speaker 1: heartbreaking than that is when Rick Danko plays Spill the 509 00:27:48,920 --> 00:27:53,399 Speaker 1: Wine for Scorsese, a track from his first solo record. 510 00:27:53,840 --> 00:27:56,880 Speaker 1: This is something so melancholy about that scene because you 511 00:27:56,880 --> 00:27:59,760 Speaker 1: you just get the sense of like, Okay, what am 512 00:27:59,760 --> 00:28:02,439 Speaker 1: I do now? You know, like I don't have my 513 00:28:02,480 --> 00:28:05,400 Speaker 1: band anymore, and I'm this is what I'm doing now? 514 00:28:05,520 --> 00:28:08,000 Speaker 1: This is There's this sort of a sadness to that 515 00:28:08,080 --> 00:28:11,679 Speaker 1: whenever I watched that. So that decision to end the 516 00:28:11,720 --> 00:28:14,840 Speaker 1: band with the Last Waltz concert, along with all the 517 00:28:14,840 --> 00:28:18,320 Speaker 1: other tensions that were existing creatively within the group, coming 518 00:28:18,320 --> 00:28:19,720 Speaker 1: down to the issue of like who is the author 519 00:28:19,760 --> 00:28:23,919 Speaker 1: of this music, which I think Robbie ended up taking 520 00:28:23,960 --> 00:28:26,800 Speaker 1: control of that as the songwriter of the band. But 521 00:28:26,840 --> 00:28:28,880 Speaker 1: then I think Levin in his book and I think 522 00:28:28,920 --> 00:28:33,080 Speaker 1: subsequently made a pretty strong case that it wasn't about 523 00:28:33,080 --> 00:28:35,840 Speaker 1: the songs. It was about the sound of the band 524 00:28:35,880 --> 00:28:38,160 Speaker 1: and the way that they played together and what the 525 00:28:38,160 --> 00:28:41,200 Speaker 1: band was as an idea, and that as great as 526 00:28:41,240 --> 00:28:44,440 Speaker 1: the Weight is as a song, that the reason why 527 00:28:44,480 --> 00:28:47,880 Speaker 1: that song is a classic is because the band plays 528 00:28:47,920 --> 00:28:51,719 Speaker 1: it and because Levan sings it and Rick comes in. 529 00:28:51,800 --> 00:28:54,160 Speaker 1: I think it's on the fifth verse and he has 530 00:28:54,240 --> 00:28:58,120 Speaker 1: his great verse. You know, if those guys weren't there 531 00:28:58,120 --> 00:29:00,400 Speaker 1: to interpret those songs or to bring those us a lot, 532 00:29:00,440 --> 00:29:03,640 Speaker 1: that they wouldn't have meant what they eventually did to 533 00:29:03,720 --> 00:29:05,440 Speaker 1: all of us who loved the band. I think it's 534 00:29:05,480 --> 00:29:07,320 Speaker 1: two things. I think it's it's the question of the 535 00:29:07,400 --> 00:29:09,560 Speaker 1: arrangement and what they banned as a whole brought to 536 00:29:09,600 --> 00:29:12,200 Speaker 1: those songs. And there's the like I think it was 537 00:29:12,280 --> 00:29:16,120 Speaker 1: Levon said, you know, Robbie Robertson's uh credit is on 538 00:29:16,160 --> 00:29:18,320 Speaker 1: her name is on the credit for Chess Chess Fever, 539 00:29:18,640 --> 00:29:19,959 Speaker 1: what do you think of when you think of that song? 540 00:29:20,000 --> 00:29:21,560 Speaker 1: Do you think of any of the words? No, you 541 00:29:21,560 --> 00:29:25,040 Speaker 1: think of Garth Hudson's incredible organ breaks, and he's not 542 00:29:25,200 --> 00:29:26,840 Speaker 1: credited for that at all. So I think it's a 543 00:29:26,920 --> 00:29:29,959 Speaker 1: question of arrangement. But then for lev On personally, so 544 00:29:30,080 --> 00:29:33,560 Speaker 1: much of what Robbie is writing about is his own 545 00:29:33,640 --> 00:29:36,720 Speaker 1: life and his own past, and in a very literal 546 00:29:36,760 --> 00:29:38,400 Speaker 1: sense with a song like The Night They Drove Old 547 00:29:38,400 --> 00:29:42,080 Speaker 1: Dixie Down, which what the song lyrics were taken from 548 00:29:42,080 --> 00:29:45,240 Speaker 1: a discussion that Robbie had with Levon's father, who said, 549 00:29:45,280 --> 00:29:47,760 Speaker 1: one night, you know, Robbie was he was kind of kidding, 550 00:29:47,800 --> 00:29:50,840 Speaker 1: but you know, Robbie, one day of the South will 551 00:29:50,920 --> 00:29:54,880 Speaker 1: rise again. And Robbie never forgot that, and not not 552 00:29:55,040 --> 00:29:58,000 Speaker 1: too long after he uh, he started writing The Night 553 00:29:58,040 --> 00:30:01,160 Speaker 1: They Old Dixie They Drove Old Dixie Down based on 554 00:30:01,200 --> 00:30:04,040 Speaker 1: that conversation. So I think Levon basically felt, you stole 555 00:30:04,120 --> 00:30:07,280 Speaker 1: my my life, you took my life and made a 556 00:30:07,280 --> 00:30:09,040 Speaker 1: ton of money off of it. Yeah, I mean that 557 00:30:09,160 --> 00:30:11,720 Speaker 1: must have been really going as well. Yeah, I don't 558 00:30:11,720 --> 00:30:14,880 Speaker 1: think there's any question that like Levan was Robbie's muse, 559 00:30:15,680 --> 00:30:19,000 Speaker 1: especially like early on in the band's career. And you know, 560 00:30:19,680 --> 00:30:23,120 Speaker 1: there's always this discussion about like great American bands, and 561 00:30:23,960 --> 00:30:26,080 Speaker 1: people bring up the band as a great American band, 562 00:30:26,120 --> 00:30:29,120 Speaker 1: and I always say, well, you know, their fourfeits Canadian. 563 00:30:29,320 --> 00:30:34,200 Speaker 1: You know, they're not really Americans. But Levan's personality as 564 00:30:34,240 --> 00:30:37,880 Speaker 1: the only Southerner in the band is so strong that 565 00:30:37,920 --> 00:30:42,120 Speaker 1: they seem quintessentially American, and Robbie was able to write 566 00:30:42,120 --> 00:30:47,960 Speaker 1: these songs that utilized Levon's strengths as a singer and 567 00:30:48,000 --> 00:30:50,520 Speaker 1: as a musician, and as well as the strengths of 568 00:30:50,560 --> 00:30:54,360 Speaker 1: the other guys in the band. Um. So yeah, I'm 569 00:30:54,400 --> 00:30:56,600 Speaker 1: the outside of perspective to being able to sort of 570 00:30:56,600 --> 00:30:59,440 Speaker 1: appreciate from an outsiders, you know, spectator sees more of 571 00:30:59,440 --> 00:31:03,360 Speaker 1: the game. They're able to kind of see appreciate the 572 00:31:03,480 --> 00:31:05,600 Speaker 1: history and and and and the foibles in a lot 573 00:31:05,600 --> 00:31:06,840 Speaker 1: of ways. I mean a lot of the lyrics of 574 00:31:06,920 --> 00:31:09,000 Speaker 1: some of the songs, especially ones that have to do 575 00:31:09,040 --> 00:31:11,760 Speaker 1: with the South, when you actually read the lyrics are 576 00:31:12,040 --> 00:31:16,280 Speaker 1: kind of uncomfortable reads. Um, especially a song like The 577 00:31:16,360 --> 00:31:18,680 Speaker 1: Night that Drove All Dixie Down. I mean it's it's 578 00:31:19,680 --> 00:31:21,280 Speaker 1: a lot of ways that about a part of American 579 00:31:21,360 --> 00:31:25,920 Speaker 1: history that we as Americans aren't particularly proud of, right, yeah, exactly, 580 00:31:25,920 --> 00:31:29,360 Speaker 1: and singing it from a perspective. Basically, it's a pro 581 00:31:30,040 --> 00:31:32,280 Speaker 1: I won't say it's a pro Confederacy song, but it's 582 00:31:32,280 --> 00:31:36,280 Speaker 1: a song that's empathetic with the Confederacy side, and it's 583 00:31:36,280 --> 00:31:39,000 Speaker 1: sung from the perspective of someone who is mourning the 584 00:31:39,120 --> 00:31:43,600 Speaker 1: death of the Confederacy. Which you know, we don't really 585 00:31:44,360 --> 00:31:47,120 Speaker 1: like to mourn that, you know, but at the same 586 00:31:47,160 --> 00:31:50,240 Speaker 1: time you can still appreciate that as a beautiful expression 587 00:31:50,480 --> 00:31:53,320 Speaker 1: of loss, I feel like you. Before we get into 588 00:31:53,400 --> 00:31:56,560 Speaker 1: our like pro Levon and pro Robbie segments, there's one 589 00:31:56,720 --> 00:32:00,920 Speaker 1: more wrinkle to this story that really muddles it even more, 590 00:32:01,360 --> 00:32:04,840 Speaker 1: you know, and it makes it sadder, which is Levin's death, 591 00:32:05,800 --> 00:32:09,960 Speaker 1: which was in and there was a story about how 592 00:32:10,560 --> 00:32:13,880 Speaker 1: Robbie basically showed up at the end of Levin's life, 593 00:32:13,880 --> 00:32:17,360 Speaker 1: went to the hospital u and it sat by his bedside, 594 00:32:17,800 --> 00:32:21,520 Speaker 1: and to hear Robbie tell it, he felt that there 595 00:32:21,600 --> 00:32:24,840 Speaker 1: was some moment of reconciliation at that time, some moment 596 00:32:24,840 --> 00:32:27,920 Speaker 1: of understanding between them two, because up until that point 597 00:32:29,120 --> 00:32:33,680 Speaker 1: they continued feuding for decades pretty much they don't once 598 00:32:33,760 --> 00:32:38,400 Speaker 1: since the late seventies. But Levin was unconscious at this time, 599 00:32:39,200 --> 00:32:41,360 Speaker 1: and you know, there's no way that he could have 600 00:32:41,400 --> 00:32:47,800 Speaker 1: actually known that Robbie was there. And you know, depending 601 00:32:47,800 --> 00:32:49,840 Speaker 1: on what most most to Levan say that if he'd 602 00:32:49,880 --> 00:32:52,080 Speaker 1: known Robbie was there, he probably would thrown him out. 603 00:32:52,080 --> 00:32:55,440 Speaker 1: And he had no mood to to to want to reconcile. 604 00:32:55,520 --> 00:32:58,000 Speaker 1: He until the end of his life. In interviews that 605 00:32:58,040 --> 00:33:00,760 Speaker 1: he gave and in his book, kind put the deaths 606 00:33:00,760 --> 00:33:03,280 Speaker 1: of Richard and Rick squarely at ret Robbie's feet. For 607 00:33:03,400 --> 00:33:05,920 Speaker 1: right or wrong, I was what he believed in you 608 00:33:05,960 --> 00:33:08,960 Speaker 1: watching his documentary, he basically says the same thing. So 609 00:33:09,280 --> 00:33:12,920 Speaker 1: you hear this story, and if you are sympathetic to Robbie, 610 00:33:13,080 --> 00:33:15,480 Speaker 1: you would look at it as maybe a beautiful moment 611 00:33:15,560 --> 00:33:20,480 Speaker 1: between two old friends that they could have this you know, 612 00:33:20,960 --> 00:33:25,320 Speaker 1: bedside redemption type moment. And if you love Levan or 613 00:33:25,360 --> 00:33:27,920 Speaker 1: your pro Levon and anti Robbie, it just seems like 614 00:33:27,960 --> 00:33:31,280 Speaker 1: the crassiest thing that Robbie has done yet, you know, 615 00:33:31,480 --> 00:33:35,880 Speaker 1: essentially using Levan's death as a way to redeem himself 616 00:33:35,920 --> 00:33:40,479 Speaker 1: in the public eye. Um, and we'll get into this, 617 00:33:40,560 --> 00:33:43,960 Speaker 1: I guess as we move in a little bit deeper 618 00:33:43,960 --> 00:33:46,880 Speaker 1: into the podcast. I I don't really know how I 619 00:33:46,880 --> 00:33:49,840 Speaker 1: feel about it. I feel like I feel like I 620 00:33:49,920 --> 00:33:52,120 Speaker 1: used to be pretty strongly on one side, and I've 621 00:33:52,120 --> 00:33:54,560 Speaker 1: moved more towards the middle as I've gotten a little 622 00:33:54,600 --> 00:33:57,960 Speaker 1: bit older. Yeah, I'm very conflicted. I mean, it's important 623 00:33:58,000 --> 00:34:00,800 Speaker 1: to note that for all of Levon's venom and bile 624 00:34:01,760 --> 00:34:07,000 Speaker 1: Robbie never really responded with that kind of uh. He 625 00:34:07,080 --> 00:34:10,760 Speaker 1: never responded in kind. He was always very complimentary about 626 00:34:10,920 --> 00:34:13,200 Speaker 1: his his music and their friendship and how much had 627 00:34:13,280 --> 00:34:15,480 Speaker 1: meant to him. You could argue that Robbie could afford 628 00:34:15,480 --> 00:34:18,120 Speaker 1: to be complimentary because he's making a ton of money, 629 00:34:18,120 --> 00:34:20,520 Speaker 1: not only with all the band royalties, but also all 630 00:34:20,520 --> 00:34:25,440 Speaker 1: the money he's making doing being Scorsese's musical buddy. So yeah, 631 00:34:25,760 --> 00:34:32,120 Speaker 1: it's difficult because in some ways you could paint leave on, 632 00:34:32,360 --> 00:34:35,960 Speaker 1: you know, every haven't I remember doing stuff in science 633 00:34:35,960 --> 00:34:37,719 Speaker 1: class when you have like your your partner with like 634 00:34:37,719 --> 00:34:39,799 Speaker 1: a bad lab partner, it seems like leave on and 635 00:34:39,800 --> 00:34:43,520 Speaker 1: a lot sometimes was the bad lab partner. You have 636 00:34:43,760 --> 00:34:46,680 Speaker 1: the one who has kind of pick up the slack 637 00:34:47,239 --> 00:34:49,399 Speaker 1: and and do all this extra work. And I think 638 00:34:49,400 --> 00:34:51,799 Speaker 1: that that Robbie felt put upon most of the time, 639 00:34:51,880 --> 00:34:56,879 Speaker 1: especially by the mid seventies, well to have to keep 640 00:34:56,920 --> 00:34:59,759 Speaker 1: that up well, And and what you've just articulated is 641 00:35:00,080 --> 00:35:02,920 Speaker 1: essentially the pro Robbie argument. Like, if we were going 642 00:35:02,960 --> 00:35:05,120 Speaker 1: to make a pro Robbie argument, we would say that 643 00:35:05,160 --> 00:35:07,839 Speaker 1: he was the guy, that he was the responsible one, 644 00:35:07,880 --> 00:35:10,480 Speaker 1: that he was the dad of the band, and that 645 00:35:10,560 --> 00:35:14,000 Speaker 1: he was left holding the bag time and again, especially 646 00:35:14,000 --> 00:35:17,040 Speaker 1: in the early seventies. Win Uh. You know, the three 647 00:35:17,120 --> 00:35:22,200 Speaker 1: singers were falling apart um and it created a burden 648 00:35:22,360 --> 00:35:24,759 Speaker 1: where it was either sink or swim for him, and 649 00:35:24,840 --> 00:35:29,520 Speaker 1: he chose to swim. And if the other guys eventually sank, 650 00:35:30,040 --> 00:35:33,680 Speaker 1: is that his fault? Or are these other guys responsible 651 00:35:33,680 --> 00:35:36,399 Speaker 1: for their own fates. We're gonna take a quick break 652 00:35:36,440 --> 00:35:38,160 Speaker 1: and get a word from our sponsor before we get 653 00:35:38,200 --> 00:35:52,160 Speaker 1: to more rivals. I'll say, and I alluded to this 654 00:35:52,200 --> 00:35:55,960 Speaker 1: earlier that I've always been a strongly pro leave on person, 655 00:35:56,719 --> 00:36:00,880 Speaker 1: and I had the opportunity to interview Robbie Robers recently 656 00:36:02,000 --> 00:36:05,880 Speaker 1: a year or two ago, and talking to him and 657 00:36:05,920 --> 00:36:08,720 Speaker 1: hearing him talk about leve On with what I feel 658 00:36:08,760 --> 00:36:12,160 Speaker 1: was genuine affection. I felt like it was he felt 659 00:36:12,200 --> 00:36:16,120 Speaker 1: genuine love, or at least maybe he's so good at 660 00:36:16,160 --> 00:36:18,520 Speaker 1: telling these stories that he can just affect that. But 661 00:36:18,640 --> 00:36:23,120 Speaker 1: anyway worked on me. Um I felt more amenable to 662 00:36:23,239 --> 00:36:27,880 Speaker 1: that argument that he tried his best and that essentially 663 00:36:27,880 --> 00:36:31,680 Speaker 1: he eventually had to decide to save himself because he 664 00:36:31,719 --> 00:36:35,000 Speaker 1: wasn't gonna be able to save these other guys. Um 665 00:36:35,120 --> 00:36:37,239 Speaker 1: So I think that's the pro Robbie side, and I 666 00:36:37,320 --> 00:36:41,200 Speaker 1: am sympathetic to that. But going to the pro Levon side, 667 00:36:42,480 --> 00:36:44,920 Speaker 1: which I've always been very strongly pro Levon and I 668 00:36:45,080 --> 00:36:49,520 Speaker 1: and I would say that I still am with those 669 00:36:49,600 --> 00:36:54,040 Speaker 1: qualifications that I just mentioned that in terms of the 670 00:36:54,040 --> 00:36:57,920 Speaker 1: band and what they represent and what their music was, 671 00:36:58,840 --> 00:37:01,839 Speaker 1: I think his argument that it was more about the 672 00:37:01,880 --> 00:37:04,680 Speaker 1: band and the way that they played the songs and 673 00:37:04,719 --> 00:37:06,080 Speaker 1: the way that they sang it and the way they 674 00:37:06,160 --> 00:37:09,400 Speaker 1: arranged it more than the songs themselves, I think that's 675 00:37:09,440 --> 00:37:12,880 Speaker 1: a very credible argument, and because I think that that 676 00:37:13,000 --> 00:37:15,000 Speaker 1: is the magic of that group. I think that if 677 00:37:15,080 --> 00:37:19,080 Speaker 1: Robbie Robertson had played the night They Drove All Dixie 678 00:37:19,080 --> 00:37:23,120 Speaker 1: Down as a Dylanesque solo songwriter, or if he had 679 00:37:23,120 --> 00:37:27,120 Speaker 1: played up on Cripple Creek as a solo singer songwriter, 680 00:37:27,800 --> 00:37:31,880 Speaker 1: they would have sounded hokey. They would not be rock classics. 681 00:37:32,080 --> 00:37:34,960 Speaker 1: I agreed, but I think that it's a question of 682 00:37:35,360 --> 00:37:41,920 Speaker 1: songwriting versus arrangement. And I completely agree that the band 683 00:37:42,160 --> 00:37:43,839 Speaker 1: were the band because it was the five of them, 684 00:37:44,120 --> 00:37:46,040 Speaker 1: and you look at basically all the music that they 685 00:37:46,120 --> 00:37:50,640 Speaker 1: made separately from Levan's albums, that were primarily covers. Even 686 00:37:50,640 --> 00:37:52,520 Speaker 1: the people that he worked with said they went even 687 00:37:52,520 --> 00:37:54,759 Speaker 1: the songs that he's credited on, he really didn't do much. 688 00:37:54,760 --> 00:37:58,239 Speaker 1: I think even his band leader in later years think 689 00:37:58,239 --> 00:38:00,880 Speaker 1: his name is Larry Campbell said that in interview, and 690 00:38:00,920 --> 00:38:06,120 Speaker 1: then Robbie's stuff to me just felt a little clinical, 691 00:38:06,560 --> 00:38:08,400 Speaker 1: and I don't know, it never really resonated me with 692 00:38:08,440 --> 00:38:12,920 Speaker 1: the same way. But I think technically Robbie did write 693 00:38:12,920 --> 00:38:15,319 Speaker 1: the songs, and he was entitled to the money for 694 00:38:15,360 --> 00:38:18,359 Speaker 1: writing those songs. I and I almost wonder why they 695 00:38:18,400 --> 00:38:22,280 Speaker 1: didn't just credit songs to the band, because the band 696 00:38:22,520 --> 00:38:25,080 Speaker 1: as a whole did play such a huge role in 697 00:38:25,080 --> 00:38:27,400 Speaker 1: in the overall sound, and there there was a precedent 698 00:38:27,440 --> 00:38:29,120 Speaker 1: for that. The Doors had done that for the first 699 00:38:29,160 --> 00:38:32,640 Speaker 1: couple of albums, and then later on. Even you've got 700 00:38:32,640 --> 00:38:35,600 Speaker 1: bands like you two who will say words by Bono 701 00:38:35,640 --> 00:38:37,880 Speaker 1: and music by you two, and that could have been 702 00:38:37,880 --> 00:38:39,840 Speaker 1: the best way to do it, words by Robbie robertson 703 00:38:40,120 --> 00:38:45,359 Speaker 1: music by the band. And I never really understood why, um, 704 00:38:45,400 --> 00:38:47,399 Speaker 1: and there are a lot of pro Probably people would say, well, 705 00:38:47,440 --> 00:38:49,720 Speaker 1: why didn't When Levan was looking at the Brown album 706 00:38:49,760 --> 00:38:53,400 Speaker 1: and noticed that Robbie was on all the songs and 707 00:38:53,880 --> 00:38:55,920 Speaker 1: leave On really wasn't was only on I think one 708 00:38:55,960 --> 00:39:00,319 Speaker 1: or two. UM, why they didn't retroactively fix those and 709 00:39:00,600 --> 00:39:03,080 Speaker 1: there's that's been done. Mike Love did that with Brian 710 00:39:03,120 --> 00:39:05,840 Speaker 1: Wilson in the nineties for some of the Beach Boys 711 00:39:05,880 --> 00:39:08,799 Speaker 1: hits that he felt he had contributed to UM, And Yeah, 712 00:39:08,800 --> 00:39:13,600 Speaker 1: it's interesting why they didn't remedy that at the time. 713 00:39:13,640 --> 00:39:15,520 Speaker 1: And there's some people say that suspicious of levi On 714 00:39:15,560 --> 00:39:18,640 Speaker 1: that the only later years when he was hurting financially 715 00:39:18,880 --> 00:39:22,040 Speaker 1: was complaining about that. Do I do? I think he's 716 00:39:22,080 --> 00:39:26,040 Speaker 1: a right to be pissed. Yes, but it's it's sort 717 00:39:26,080 --> 00:39:29,719 Speaker 1: of the injustice of how we credit songs and how 718 00:39:29,760 --> 00:39:33,200 Speaker 1: we pay songwriters for for royalties and publishing. I mean, 719 00:39:33,440 --> 00:39:35,520 Speaker 1: it's more of an indictment of that system. Well, I 720 00:39:35,520 --> 00:39:38,080 Speaker 1: think that there's two different issues here. There is the 721 00:39:38,080 --> 00:39:40,880 Speaker 1: issue that you're just talking about, which is the financial issue, 722 00:39:40,960 --> 00:39:45,080 Speaker 1: which is who gets paid for what. And you're right, 723 00:39:45,880 --> 00:39:49,400 Speaker 1: Robbie Robertson is the person credited with writing those songs. 724 00:39:49,600 --> 00:39:51,759 Speaker 1: He and I have no doubt that he took a 725 00:39:51,840 --> 00:39:58,080 Speaker 1: leading role in shaping those songs. UM. But I think 726 00:39:58,120 --> 00:39:59,759 Speaker 1: the other issue is more of I guess, like a 727 00:40:00,000 --> 00:40:04,000 Speaker 1: spiritual credit or like how we or how we contextualize 728 00:40:04,920 --> 00:40:06,879 Speaker 1: like who makes the music and who is the leader 729 00:40:06,880 --> 00:40:09,120 Speaker 1: of the band, Because I feel like for a long 730 00:40:09,239 --> 00:40:13,080 Speaker 1: time that when people talked about the band, they talked 731 00:40:13,080 --> 00:40:15,640 Speaker 1: about it as Robbie Robertson's band, and I think that 732 00:40:15,719 --> 00:40:18,680 Speaker 1: had a lot to do with The Last Waltz, you know, 733 00:40:19,200 --> 00:40:22,080 Speaker 1: for me coming into that movie, like I said, you know, 734 00:40:22,120 --> 00:40:24,120 Speaker 1: I didn't grow up in the sixties. I didn't have 735 00:40:24,160 --> 00:40:26,920 Speaker 1: any of that context. I only knew this movie, and 736 00:40:26,920 --> 00:40:28,920 Speaker 1: from that movie I got the impression that he was 737 00:40:28,960 --> 00:40:31,279 Speaker 1: the guy, and that it was his band, and that 738 00:40:31,560 --> 00:40:35,160 Speaker 1: these other guys were almost like his backing musicians. And 739 00:40:36,320 --> 00:40:40,440 Speaker 1: the degree to which that's deliberate. We can talk about 740 00:40:40,480 --> 00:40:42,720 Speaker 1: that there. You know, Robbie might say that he didn't 741 00:40:42,719 --> 00:40:45,840 Speaker 1: intend for that impression to come across. I'm sure Levin 742 00:40:45,920 --> 00:40:51,240 Speaker 1: would have a different opinion of that, um But because Robbie, 743 00:40:51,480 --> 00:40:54,120 Speaker 1: I'm sorry, because Levin wrote his book, I think that 744 00:40:54,239 --> 00:40:58,600 Speaker 1: was the beginning of people having this conversation about, Okay, 745 00:40:58,640 --> 00:41:01,600 Speaker 1: who actually deserves the cry for this and how evenly 746 00:41:01,640 --> 00:41:05,000 Speaker 1: should it be distributed? And the sad thing to me 747 00:41:05,160 --> 00:41:09,560 Speaker 1: about Once We're Brothers is the subtitle of it, which 748 00:41:09,600 --> 00:41:14,320 Speaker 1: is Robbie Robertson and the Band. And it almost seems 749 00:41:14,360 --> 00:41:16,400 Speaker 1: and I don't know. I mean, look, it's possible that 750 00:41:16,480 --> 00:41:19,400 Speaker 1: Robbie did not title the movie, you know, like it 751 00:41:19,440 --> 00:41:21,520 Speaker 1: could have been the director, it could have been anyone else. 752 00:41:21,560 --> 00:41:24,439 Speaker 1: But the impression that that gives to me is that 753 00:41:24,640 --> 00:41:30,080 Speaker 1: it's him reasserting his authorship and his dominance of the 754 00:41:30,120 --> 00:41:33,200 Speaker 1: band and putting himself up front. And when you watch 755 00:41:33,239 --> 00:41:38,360 Speaker 1: the movie, it is a story essentially about him coming 756 00:41:38,400 --> 00:41:41,560 Speaker 1: into the band and then at some point deciding that 757 00:41:42,040 --> 00:41:45,120 Speaker 1: these guys are too fucked up. I need to save myself. 758 00:41:45,160 --> 00:41:48,160 Speaker 1: I need to be with my wife and family and 759 00:41:48,239 --> 00:41:53,359 Speaker 1: do my own thing. Um. And that, to me, it's 760 00:41:53,440 --> 00:41:57,840 Speaker 1: just a distortion of what made that band great. Um. 761 00:41:57,880 --> 00:42:00,200 Speaker 1: You know, even if you want to say, Okay, the 762 00:42:00,280 --> 00:42:04,360 Speaker 1: songwriting credits are his, he gets the money, that's fine. 763 00:42:04,600 --> 00:42:08,200 Speaker 1: But if we're going to talk about the magic of 764 00:42:08,239 --> 00:42:11,160 Speaker 1: that band, and we're going to talk about again, I 765 00:42:11,200 --> 00:42:14,040 Speaker 1: guess do I call it spiritual credit or whatever you 766 00:42:14,080 --> 00:42:17,279 Speaker 1: want to call it. I think it should be spread out. 767 00:42:17,440 --> 00:42:20,839 Speaker 1: And I think in that respect, Levan definitely has a point. Absolutely. 768 00:42:20,840 --> 00:42:23,480 Speaker 1: I mean spiritual credit credit, no question at all. I 769 00:42:23,480 --> 00:42:25,880 Speaker 1: mean I think that I think it's very much. I 770 00:42:26,440 --> 00:42:29,560 Speaker 1: know I used the Lenna McCartney dichotomy probably way too much, 771 00:42:29,600 --> 00:42:31,680 Speaker 1: but I think leve On very much has the John 772 00:42:31,760 --> 00:42:35,400 Speaker 1: Lennon roll of of having the charisma and the aggression 773 00:42:35,600 --> 00:42:38,760 Speaker 1: and the attitude that had to be shaped by somebody 774 00:42:38,800 --> 00:42:42,160 Speaker 1: and kind of formed and packaged into something that that 775 00:42:42,239 --> 00:42:47,399 Speaker 1: otherwise wouldn't have been focused UM. And I think that 776 00:42:47,400 --> 00:42:50,759 Speaker 1: that's where Robbie came in, somebody who had very um 777 00:42:50,920 --> 00:42:55,799 Speaker 1: intellectual aspirations and commercial aspirations to UM. And I think 778 00:42:55,800 --> 00:43:00,200 Speaker 1: he took Robbie's um attitude and in some case is 779 00:43:00,239 --> 00:43:01,960 Speaker 1: his past, like we were talking about the night that 780 00:43:02,000 --> 00:43:05,120 Speaker 1: Jove all Dixie down UM and and and turn it 781 00:43:05,160 --> 00:43:08,120 Speaker 1: into something. And I think when they were apart, it 782 00:43:08,160 --> 00:43:10,880 Speaker 1: was never it never worked. You had you look at 783 00:43:10,920 --> 00:43:13,400 Speaker 1: their solo albums. You look at Levan's was the r 784 00:43:13,480 --> 00:43:17,040 Speaker 1: CEO album, and it was a lot of kind of 785 00:43:17,040 --> 00:43:20,000 Speaker 1: bar band covers and it was great, expertly performed and 786 00:43:20,440 --> 00:43:22,960 Speaker 1: really fun to listen to, but there was something a 787 00:43:23,040 --> 00:43:24,960 Speaker 1: little hollow to it. And I feel that way about 788 00:43:25,040 --> 00:43:28,200 Speaker 1: Robbie's Um, it was missing that that warmth and chrisma 789 00:43:28,239 --> 00:43:30,440 Speaker 1: that Levon brought to it. I disagree a little bit. 790 00:43:30,480 --> 00:43:34,040 Speaker 1: I actually like that first Robbie Robinson record that Daniel 791 00:43:34,080 --> 00:43:36,839 Speaker 1: Lana did, which is like and it's a pretty overblown 792 00:43:37,640 --> 00:43:41,120 Speaker 1: record and it feels very Daniel Daniel lanois heavy because 793 00:43:41,120 --> 00:43:45,400 Speaker 1: it's very atmospheric and kind of swampy and smokey. I 794 00:43:45,440 --> 00:43:48,279 Speaker 1: think that album, Mike is pretty good, and actually like 795 00:43:49,120 --> 00:43:51,440 Speaker 1: the Levon helm albums that he made towards the end 796 00:43:51,440 --> 00:43:54,520 Speaker 1: of his life. Well, I like like Dirt Farmer and 797 00:43:54,640 --> 00:43:57,399 Speaker 1: Electric Dirt. Yeah, you like to have the word dirt 798 00:43:57,440 --> 00:44:00,520 Speaker 1: and album titles for whatever reason. But you know, he 799 00:44:00,640 --> 00:44:04,360 Speaker 1: kind of hit upon this very easy going Americana sound 800 00:44:04,400 --> 00:44:07,120 Speaker 1: that I think suited them well, Um, I mean not 801 00:44:07,160 --> 00:44:10,920 Speaker 1: earth shattering records, but I think they're pretty good. Um, 802 00:44:10,960 --> 00:44:13,040 Speaker 1: but you're right. I mean, obviously they never did anything 803 00:44:13,080 --> 00:44:15,120 Speaker 1: as good as music from Big Pink or the Band, 804 00:44:15,719 --> 00:44:19,960 Speaker 1: or even like records like Stage Fright or Cahoots, you know, 805 00:44:20,040 --> 00:44:24,960 Speaker 1: which are both I think diminished in comparison to the 806 00:44:25,000 --> 00:44:28,320 Speaker 1: first two records, but I think are by any understanding, 807 00:44:28,360 --> 00:44:31,640 Speaker 1: I think they're pretty strong albums. I mean, I'm of 808 00:44:31,680 --> 00:44:34,080 Speaker 1: the opinion that the band continued to make pretty good 809 00:44:34,080 --> 00:44:38,719 Speaker 1: albums throughout their career. Um, they weren't as great as 810 00:44:38,760 --> 00:44:41,960 Speaker 1: the first two, but I think they were still pretty good. Um, 811 00:44:42,440 --> 00:44:44,480 Speaker 1: there's a lot of good stuff on those. It's so 812 00:44:44,520 --> 00:44:47,279 Speaker 1: fascinating how this has shifted over time, because you know, 813 00:44:47,320 --> 00:44:48,960 Speaker 1: like I said, I feel like, for a long time, 814 00:44:49,120 --> 00:44:53,239 Speaker 1: maybe post Last Waltz, Robbie Robertson was so much more 815 00:44:53,280 --> 00:44:56,040 Speaker 1: famous than the other guys in the band. But then 816 00:44:56,239 --> 00:45:00,279 Speaker 1: starting with the publication of Levon Helm's book, basically Robbie 817 00:45:00,360 --> 00:45:05,240 Speaker 1: Robertson has become this villain figure essentially in rock music. 818 00:45:05,440 --> 00:45:07,319 Speaker 1: Was that the first time that people were aware of 819 00:45:07,320 --> 00:45:09,359 Speaker 1: this feud? I that was for me. That was how 820 00:45:09,400 --> 00:45:11,279 Speaker 1: I learned about it was Levan's book. Were there any 821 00:45:11,280 --> 00:45:14,000 Speaker 1: indication before that? I didn't see anything when I was 822 00:45:14,080 --> 00:45:17,279 Speaker 1: kind of brushing up for this in any kind of interview, don't. Yeah, 823 00:45:17,400 --> 00:45:20,879 Speaker 1: I don't think it was like as as known. I mean, 824 00:45:20,920 --> 00:45:25,440 Speaker 1: I feel like that because that book is famously vitch. Yeah. 825 00:45:25,480 --> 00:45:28,720 Speaker 1: I mean so, I I think that was the first shot. 826 00:45:28,840 --> 00:45:33,000 Speaker 1: And you know, like I said, I interviewed Robbie about 827 00:45:33,000 --> 00:45:35,320 Speaker 1: a year or two ago, and I've always thought of 828 00:45:35,360 --> 00:45:37,240 Speaker 1: him as a villain. You know, I had the villain 829 00:45:38,200 --> 00:45:39,879 Speaker 1: idea in my head with him for a long time, 830 00:45:39,920 --> 00:45:43,720 Speaker 1: and I'll say that talking to him it did change 831 00:45:43,760 --> 00:45:48,080 Speaker 1: my mind a little bit. Also, just the just the 832 00:45:48,080 --> 00:45:50,800 Speaker 1: passage of time I think changed my mind. I mean, look, 833 00:45:51,800 --> 00:45:54,800 Speaker 1: whatever you want to say about Robbie Robertson, he played 834 00:45:55,160 --> 00:45:58,200 Speaker 1: on some of the greatest music for me that's ever 835 00:45:58,280 --> 00:46:00,840 Speaker 1: been made. So it was hard for me to be 836 00:46:00,840 --> 00:46:03,200 Speaker 1: too judgment especially when I was talking to him if 837 00:46:03,200 --> 00:46:04,920 Speaker 1: he had only just been the guy that played on 838 00:46:05,000 --> 00:46:08,920 Speaker 1: Dylan's sixties six tour, you know, because his guitar playing 839 00:46:08,920 --> 00:46:11,160 Speaker 1: on the tour is unbelievable. I mean, he is a 840 00:46:11,200 --> 00:46:14,000 Speaker 1: great guitar player. Um. You know, I would have been 841 00:46:14,040 --> 00:46:16,560 Speaker 1: in awe of him. But you know, he's done a 842 00:46:16,600 --> 00:46:20,440 Speaker 1: lot of great things, um in his career, even with 843 00:46:20,480 --> 00:46:23,840 Speaker 1: all of this negative baggage and all the negative mojo 844 00:46:24,080 --> 00:46:26,960 Speaker 1: would leave on And you know, he's also one of 845 00:46:27,000 --> 00:46:30,800 Speaker 1: the only guys left in this band. So it's like 846 00:46:31,680 --> 00:46:33,520 Speaker 1: history is written by the victors. And I think that's 847 00:46:33,520 --> 00:46:35,320 Speaker 1: a lot of what people are taking offense to with 848 00:46:35,360 --> 00:46:38,880 Speaker 1: the documentary to I mean that now the last word 849 00:46:39,000 --> 00:46:43,640 Speaker 1: belongs to him because Garth uh isn't up to to 850 00:46:43,719 --> 00:46:46,160 Speaker 1: speaking for whatever reason, well, I think, and so he 851 00:46:46,200 --> 00:46:49,200 Speaker 1: can dictate the narrative. And I think that backfired on him. 852 00:46:49,280 --> 00:46:51,680 Speaker 1: I think if he had made a movie where he 853 00:46:51,760 --> 00:46:55,319 Speaker 1: was more honest and he had taken on some of 854 00:46:55,600 --> 00:46:58,640 Speaker 1: his villain baggage head on, that that movie would have 855 00:46:58,640 --> 00:47:01,160 Speaker 1: been more effective. You know. Oh yeah, like Dad the 856 00:47:01,239 --> 00:47:03,960 Speaker 1: David Crosby documentary where he basically says, yeah, I was 857 00:47:04,000 --> 00:47:05,560 Speaker 1: ad dick to everybody who was in a band with 858 00:47:05,840 --> 00:47:08,640 Speaker 1: and now everyone hates me. I I screwed up. And 859 00:47:09,239 --> 00:47:11,200 Speaker 1: that was such. It was one of my favorite documentary 860 00:47:11,280 --> 00:47:14,200 Speaker 1: rock documentary have ever seen. It was amazing. And if 861 00:47:14,200 --> 00:47:15,880 Speaker 1: he'd gone that route, yeah, it would have been a 862 00:47:15,960 --> 00:47:18,359 Speaker 1: much more compelling documentary. But I don't think that's who 863 00:47:18,400 --> 00:47:20,560 Speaker 1: he is. Yeah, I think I think people are gonna 864 00:47:20,560 --> 00:47:22,560 Speaker 1: look at that now and there's gonna be people who 865 00:47:22,560 --> 00:47:24,439 Speaker 1: don't know much about the band and they're gonna enjoy 866 00:47:24,520 --> 00:47:27,680 Speaker 1: that at face value. But anyone who really loves the band, 867 00:47:28,920 --> 00:47:32,200 Speaker 1: that's just going to close the book again on Robbie 868 00:47:32,280 --> 00:47:36,399 Speaker 1: Robertson that, Okay, he's just a glory Hog again and 869 00:47:36,440 --> 00:47:39,120 Speaker 1: everything that we always thought about him was true, and 870 00:47:39,480 --> 00:47:44,160 Speaker 1: this documentary confirms it because it's just like hay geography basically. Um. 871 00:47:44,280 --> 00:47:48,040 Speaker 1: So coming into to our conclusion here, and this is 872 00:47:48,080 --> 00:47:49,640 Speaker 1: the part of the episode where we always try to 873 00:47:49,680 --> 00:47:55,520 Speaker 1: find a moment of of peace and reconciliation between our rivals. Um. 874 00:47:55,560 --> 00:47:56,840 Speaker 1: You know, I said at the top of the episode 875 00:47:56,840 --> 00:48:00,560 Speaker 1: that this is a very melancholy rivalry for me, because 876 00:48:00,640 --> 00:48:04,120 Speaker 1: I do feel like these guys genuinely were friends at 877 00:48:04,160 --> 00:48:07,759 Speaker 1: one point, and more than that, they really did need 878 00:48:07,800 --> 00:48:11,400 Speaker 1: each other and they brought out the best in each other. Um. 879 00:48:12,400 --> 00:48:14,200 Speaker 1: And you know, we've said it a couple of times. 880 00:48:14,200 --> 00:48:16,040 Speaker 1: I mean, they never made as great a music apart 881 00:48:16,120 --> 00:48:19,880 Speaker 1: as they did together. And I think the combination of 882 00:48:19,920 --> 00:48:23,680 Speaker 1: like what levi On represented culturally as well as just 883 00:48:23,800 --> 00:48:30,200 Speaker 1: his fantastic musicianship and vocal ability, combined with Robbie's ability 884 00:48:30,239 --> 00:48:33,800 Speaker 1: as a songwriter and as a conceptualist, it just created 885 00:48:33,800 --> 00:48:38,280 Speaker 1: this magical combination um that unfortunately just was not mental. 886 00:48:38,360 --> 00:48:41,319 Speaker 1: Last yeah, there's a friend of mine have been my 887 00:48:41,400 --> 00:48:44,120 Speaker 1: favorite journalist names Alex Heigel, and he'd written a piece 888 00:48:44,120 --> 00:48:49,120 Speaker 1: where he basically described the band as as a socialist 889 00:48:49,160 --> 00:48:52,120 Speaker 1: experiment that when that then was ruined by by capitalism, 890 00:48:52,160 --> 00:48:54,880 Speaker 1: he had somebody like Robbie Robinson who saw an opportunity 891 00:48:54,960 --> 00:48:58,400 Speaker 1: and took it where and when they're making the Brown album, 892 00:48:58,520 --> 00:49:01,080 Speaker 1: they were out in l a At at Sammy Davis 893 00:49:01,160 --> 00:49:03,480 Speaker 1: Jr's house and they drew straws for who was going 894 00:49:03,520 --> 00:49:05,480 Speaker 1: to get which room. And it was just very much 895 00:49:05,760 --> 00:49:10,720 Speaker 1: that this communal exercise of musical socialism, and I think 896 00:49:11,280 --> 00:49:14,439 Speaker 1: leave on sense of betrayal that that one could take 897 00:49:14,760 --> 00:49:20,440 Speaker 1: opportunities that would benefit just themselves. Uh, really soured him 898 00:49:20,560 --> 00:49:22,920 Speaker 1: for the rest of his life, I think. But you're 899 00:49:22,960 --> 00:49:25,080 Speaker 1: absolutely right. They were never better than they were together. 900 00:49:25,400 --> 00:49:28,919 Speaker 1: Like so many bands of musical partnerships, they they brought 901 00:49:28,960 --> 00:49:31,720 Speaker 1: out the best in each other and and and pushed 902 00:49:31,760 --> 00:49:36,040 Speaker 1: each other and challenged each other and inspired each other. Dude, 903 00:49:36,080 --> 00:49:39,840 Speaker 1: I am bummed, man. I think after after this episode, 904 00:49:39,840 --> 00:49:41,480 Speaker 1: I'm going to get a bottle of whiskey and just 905 00:49:41,520 --> 00:49:45,319 Speaker 1: listen to Whispering Pines on repeat and cry my eyes out. 906 00:49:46,160 --> 00:49:48,400 Speaker 1: It's a bummer man talking about this. I wish they 907 00:49:48,440 --> 00:49:50,600 Speaker 1: could have made it work. There should have been way 908 00:49:50,600 --> 00:49:53,600 Speaker 1: more great band records. But I guess we should just 909 00:49:53,600 --> 00:49:58,000 Speaker 1: be grateful for the music that appreciate Yeah, alright, man, Well, 910 00:49:58,000 --> 00:50:01,080 Speaker 1: I'm gonna crawl, gonna do a hole with a bottle 911 00:50:01,200 --> 00:50:04,279 Speaker 1: right now and listen to Whispering Pines. So call me 912 00:50:04,280 --> 00:50:07,319 Speaker 1: when it's time to record another episode. All right, I'm 913 00:50:07,320 --> 00:50:09,080 Speaker 1: gonna go listen to Neil Diamond, then try to cheer 914 00:50:09,160 --> 00:50:20,440 Speaker 1: up An until the next time. Rivals is a production 915 00:50:20,440 --> 00:50:22,799 Speaker 1: of I Heart Radio. The executive producers are Shawn ty 916 00:50:22,880 --> 00:50:25,640 Speaker 1: Toone and Noel Brown. The supervising producers are Taylor Chi 917 00:50:25,719 --> 00:50:28,480 Speaker 1: coogn and Tristan McNeil. I'm Jordan run Talk and I'm 918 00:50:28,480 --> 00:50:30,800 Speaker 1: Stephen Hyden. If you like what you heard, please subscribe 919 00:50:30,800 --> 00:50:32,840 Speaker 1: to leave us a review. For more podcasts for My 920 00:50:32,960 --> 00:50:36,239 Speaker 1: heart Radio, visit the I heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, 921 00:50:36,440 --> 00:50:38,160 Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.