WEBVTT - What's the Secret to a Better Prison System? 0:00:00.080 --> 0:00:02.720 Guess what mango? What's that will? So I fell down 0:00:02.720 --> 0:00:05.279 this rabbit hole. Last week I was looking up buildings 0:00:05.280 --> 0:00:07.840 that were good for the environment, and I stumbled into 0:00:07.840 --> 0:00:11.399 America's LEADS certified prisons. So there are a few across 0:00:11.440 --> 0:00:13.600 the country. There's the one that Bernie Madoff is in 0:00:13.760 --> 0:00:17.079 in Buttoner, North Carolina. There's one in California that's supposed 0:00:17.120 --> 0:00:19.440 to be the greenest. But the one I really dived 0:00:19.480 --> 0:00:23.000 into was this article about Coyote Ridge Corrections Facility. It's 0:00:23.000 --> 0:00:26.400 in Washington State, and it's this medium security prison that 0:00:26.480 --> 0:00:29.000 was built in two thousand and ten. And on paper, 0:00:29.040 --> 0:00:32.080 it's pretty impressive. I mean, they've managed to reduce water 0:00:32.120 --> 0:00:34.720 consumption by five and a half million gallons a year. 0:00:35.159 --> 0:00:37.720 It's about four hundred thousand dollars cheaper and energy costs 0:00:37.720 --> 0:00:40.840 than a comparable prison. They used narrow windows to trap 0:00:40.880 --> 0:00:43.200 the heat in winter, but also to keep the place 0:00:43.240 --> 0:00:46.120 cool in summer, and all of that sounds pretty good. Well, 0:00:46.159 --> 0:00:49.000 you know, it's the first full prison campus that's completely 0:00:49.080 --> 0:00:52.600 LEAD certified, so you think it might be beautiful as well, 0:00:52.920 --> 0:00:55.040 But when you peek inside, it just looks like a 0:00:55.120 --> 0:00:58.880 horrible cement prison out that that's so disheartening, and you know, 0:00:58.920 --> 0:01:00.600 it kind of made me wonder, like, what do some 0:01:00.680 --> 0:01:03.400 of the more interesting prisons around the world look like today, 0:01:03.440 --> 0:01:05.360 and what are some of the changes that are being 0:01:05.360 --> 0:01:07.839 made that seem to be working. So that's what today's 0:01:07.840 --> 0:01:29.440 show is all about. Hey, their podcast listeners, welcome to 0:01:29.480 --> 0:01:32.000 Part Time Genius. I'm Will Pearson and as always I'm 0:01:32.040 --> 0:01:34.520 joined by my good friend man guest and the man 0:01:34.600 --> 0:01:37.919 behind that soundproof glass is aspiring novelist and country music 0:01:38.000 --> 0:01:41.360 legend Christin McNeil. Now, as we mentioned at the top 0:01:41.360 --> 0:01:43.319 of the show, today's episode is looking into how to 0:01:43.400 --> 0:01:46.120 build a better prison, and we're gonna save things like 0:01:46.160 --> 0:01:49.600 how prisons work and great escape stories for future episodes, 0:01:49.680 --> 0:01:51.960 but you know, today's show is really about how to 0:01:51.960 --> 0:01:54.760 build a system that works better for us all. I mean, 0:01:54.760 --> 0:01:57.960 however you feel about the humane aspects of locking people up, 0:01:58.320 --> 0:02:02.200 the economic aspects of prison affect everybody. So we'll take 0:02:02.200 --> 0:02:04.120 a look at how some prisons from around the globe 0:02:04.160 --> 0:02:07.080 have reformed their approaches. Sure, so that's why you see 0:02:07.080 --> 0:02:10.760 those YouTube videos of Filipino prisoners doing thriller together, or 0:02:10.919 --> 0:02:14.080 even why Brazil allows prisoners to do book reports to 0:02:14.080 --> 0:02:16.359 get time off their sentence for every book they read. 0:02:16.680 --> 0:02:18.480 And and you know, that's clearly an attempt to deal 0:02:18.520 --> 0:02:20.720 with overcrowding. And it actually kind of reminded me of 0:02:20.760 --> 0:02:23.200 that whole pizza Hut bookt programs you participate in that 0:02:23.320 --> 0:02:25.480 as a kid. You know, you get a pizza for 0:02:25.560 --> 0:02:27.880 every I think it was five books that you proved 0:02:27.960 --> 0:02:30.000 that you read. I don't know how you proved it exactly, 0:02:30.040 --> 0:02:31.840 but you know, except in this case, you get four 0:02:31.880 --> 0:02:34.040 days off for every book you write a report for. 0:02:34.200 --> 0:02:37.120 And also it has to be grammatically perfect or it 0:02:37.200 --> 0:02:39.800 doesn't count. But if you read twelve books, you can 0:02:39.800 --> 0:02:42.720 get a maximum of forty eight days off your sentence. 0:02:43.040 --> 0:02:45.760 And of course not every prisoner is eligible. But you know, 0:02:45.880 --> 0:02:47.799 just like that one, we're going to shine a light 0:02:47.840 --> 0:02:50.040 on a few of the innovative programs that are getting 0:02:50.080 --> 0:02:53.880 positive results both here and abroad. Right, And obviously we 0:02:53.919 --> 0:02:56.040 aren't going to come up with clear cut solutions for 0:02:56.080 --> 0:02:59.360 such complex issues, at least not in forty minutes of chatter. 0:02:59.520 --> 0:03:01.640 But what we can do is get a better sense 0:03:01.639 --> 0:03:03.920 of the problem and some ways people are looking to 0:03:03.960 --> 0:03:06.320 address them. All Right, so let's start with what people 0:03:06.360 --> 0:03:09.119 probably already know about the US prison system, and that's 0:03:09.200 --> 0:03:11.959 namely that it's massive. And by massive, I mean that 0:03:12.000 --> 0:03:15.200 our country has the largest prison population in the world. 0:03:15.639 --> 0:03:17.880 So that's actually not all. We also have the world's 0:03:17.919 --> 0:03:21.760 highest prison rate. Out of every one hundred thousand Americans, 0:03:22.080 --> 0:03:25.720 roughly seven hundred and twenty four are behind bars, and 0:03:25.760 --> 0:03:28.240 for anyone keeping track, that's about a hundred and fifty 0:03:28.240 --> 0:03:31.840 people more than Russia's second place. Right. Yeah, So I've 0:03:31.880 --> 0:03:35.680 read this report from a group called the Prison Policy Initiative, 0:03:35.760 --> 0:03:38.320 and it actually concluded that there are more than two 0:03:38.320 --> 0:03:42.360 point three million people currently incarcerated in the US. And 0:03:42.520 --> 0:03:44.440 if that doesn't sound like a lot to you, keep 0:03:44.440 --> 0:03:47.120 in mind that the whole population of New Mexico is 0:03:47.200 --> 0:03:49.600 just over two million. That actually does sound like a 0:03:49.640 --> 0:03:51.280 lot to me. I'm not sure who that wouldn't sound 0:03:51.360 --> 0:03:53.560 like a lot too, But actually, does this mean that 0:03:53.600 --> 0:03:55.440 we have more people in jail or in prison that 0:03:55.480 --> 0:03:58.600 we have living in an entire state? Yeah, or two 0:03:58.640 --> 0:04:01.240 states if you take Delaware, US Rhode Island. I mean, 0:04:01.440 --> 0:04:04.240 two point three million is a lot of people. It's 0:04:04.280 --> 0:04:07.160 it's almost one percent of the national population. Wow. You know, 0:04:07.200 --> 0:04:09.320 and of course when you factor in the family members 0:04:09.320 --> 0:04:11.440 of the prisoners who make up that one percent, that 0:04:11.560 --> 0:04:15.680 number actually affected by incarceration swells even larger. So I 0:04:15.720 --> 0:04:18.200 read this Pew study that found that nearly three million 0:04:18.279 --> 0:04:21.160 children in the US have a parent in prison. Back 0:04:21.160 --> 0:04:23.280 in the nineteen seventies, that was true for about one 0:04:23.279 --> 0:04:25.960 out of a hundred and twenty five kids, but today 0:04:26.080 --> 0:04:29.080 it's one in twenty eight. And according to that same 0:04:29.120 --> 0:04:32.640 Pew study, two thirds of these kids parents were incarcerated 0:04:32.680 --> 0:04:35.760 for non violent offenses. So that that reminds me. Do 0:04:35.760 --> 0:04:38.120 you remember that a secret museum in New York City? 0:04:38.240 --> 0:04:40.240 I remember we covered it in previous episode, right, Yeah, 0:04:40.640 --> 0:04:43.000 we've definitely talked about it. But for those who don't 0:04:43.000 --> 0:04:45.200 know about it, it's this tiny museum that's housed an 0:04:45.279 --> 0:04:48.160 elevator shaft, and every shelf of it's treated like its 0:04:48.160 --> 0:04:50.800 own wing. But but the curators there had all these 0:04:50.839 --> 0:04:53.520 giant backgrounds of things when I visited of places like 0:04:53.520 --> 0:04:56.919 Hawaii or Greece or whatever, and and I asked what 0:04:57.000 --> 0:04:59.520 they were, and the guys told me that their backgrounds 0:04:59.640 --> 0:05:03.120 used to take vacation photos at prisons. Basically, prisoners can 0:05:03.160 --> 0:05:05.800 save up and use their pay or good behavior to 0:05:05.839 --> 0:05:08.479 take photos with their families in these backgrounds, so that 0:05:08.520 --> 0:05:10.479 the families have photos with their kids that look like 0:05:10.480 --> 0:05:13.040 they've been able to go on vacations together. And I mean, 0:05:13.040 --> 0:05:15.640 when I saw this, I just found it so heartbreaking. 0:05:15.800 --> 0:05:18.760 But what's worse is the recidivism rates of prisons. So 0:05:19.000 --> 0:05:22.240 according to the Bureau of Justice, about three quarters or 0:05:22.400 --> 0:05:26.320 seventy six point six percent of release prisoners were rearrested 0:05:26.360 --> 0:05:29.680 within five years, which is a terrible track record for 0:05:29.839 --> 0:05:32.520 US rehabilitation. Yeah, and and that's actually one of the 0:05:32.560 --> 0:05:35.000 main problems I came across in my research as well, 0:05:35.080 --> 0:05:38.159 is that our current system, you know, this current prison system, 0:05:38.279 --> 0:05:41.760 it's largely designed to punish and and not to rehabilitate, 0:05:42.080 --> 0:05:46.360 which I'm sure wasn't the initial intention. Like in Delaware history, 0:05:46.360 --> 0:05:49.000 I remember learning about William Penn and how he and 0:05:49.040 --> 0:05:52.080 other Quakers tried to change the prison system from this 0:05:52.200 --> 0:05:55.920 sort of overcrowded and inhumane conditions they saw in London. 0:05:56.240 --> 0:05:59.120 And one of the ways was with penitentiaries, Like the 0:05:59.160 --> 0:06:01.240 idea was that you can go there to be penitent 0:06:01.440 --> 0:06:04.680 and so they were totally quiet spaces and prisoners were 0:06:04.680 --> 0:06:07.720 given their own cells and the food was simple but good, 0:06:08.080 --> 0:06:09.760 and the whole idea was you get to think about 0:06:09.800 --> 0:06:11.599 your crimes and how you want to make amends to 0:06:11.680 --> 0:06:15.000 society once you're out, which sounds good in theory, but 0:06:15.120 --> 0:06:18.640 in practice it was actually a terrible idea. Like this 0:06:18.800 --> 0:06:22.839 humane idea was actually just putting people into solitary confinement, 0:06:23.160 --> 0:06:25.800 which actually drove people crazy. That makes sense. I really 0:06:25.800 --> 0:06:27.479 didn't think of it that way. But you know, the 0:06:27.560 --> 0:06:30.479 history of prisons is filled with stories of good intentions 0:06:30.520 --> 0:06:32.760 gone bad. And one of the things you realize in 0:06:32.800 --> 0:06:34.719 looking at the history is that there was a major 0:06:34.839 --> 0:06:37.640 shift in the nation's approach to prisons and the seventies 0:06:37.640 --> 0:06:40.080 and eighties, and this around the time we became less 0:06:40.120 --> 0:06:43.000 concerned with helping prisoners get their lives back on track 0:06:43.520 --> 0:06:46.039 and much more interested in making sure they suffered for 0:06:46.080 --> 0:06:49.320 their crimes. And that's when the war on drugs really started, 0:06:49.360 --> 0:06:51.960 and also the big push to get tough on crime. 0:06:52.080 --> 0:06:56.400 You know, these mandatory minimum sentences even for non violent crimes, right, 0:06:56.480 --> 0:06:58.960 And during that time, the budgets for programs that focused 0:06:58.960 --> 0:07:02.719 on reintegrating prisoners, like they were totally slashed, and that 0:07:02.760 --> 0:07:05.680 was partially to build new prisons. That we're being immediately filled. 0:07:06.160 --> 0:07:09.479 And now the results of those policy changes speak for themselves, right, 0:07:09.560 --> 0:07:13.600 Like the prison population has more than quadrupled since the eighties, 0:07:13.800 --> 0:07:15.520 which is how we get to that over two million 0:07:15.600 --> 0:07:18.320 number we were talking about, And all of that creates 0:07:18.320 --> 0:07:20.600 a tax burden for citizens instead of working to have 0:07:20.640 --> 0:07:23.880 all these X cons contributing to society. Well, you know, 0:07:23.960 --> 0:07:25.960 I think it's safe to say that the criminal justice 0:07:25.960 --> 0:07:29.680 system doesn't work well when the only goal is to punish. 0:07:29.760 --> 0:07:32.040 Actual reminds me there's this Ricky Gervais joke where he 0:07:32.040 --> 0:07:34.640 talks about how Mandela went to prison for twenty seven 0:07:34.720 --> 0:07:37.680 years and then never committed another crime, and that tells us, 0:07:37.720 --> 0:07:40.520 you know, the system works, And I mean, he's mocking 0:07:40.520 --> 0:07:42.560 the idea that you can just send someone away and 0:07:42.600 --> 0:07:46.280 they emerge rehabilitated. But as more criminals wind up doing 0:07:46.360 --> 0:07:49.200 hard time for low level offenses and there's a lack 0:07:49.200 --> 0:07:52.680 of reform programs, it really just leads to this revolving 0:07:52.720 --> 0:07:56.280 door system where prisoners are rearrested soon after they're released. 0:07:57.360 --> 0:07:59.920 You know. But the real question is what are the alternative? 0:08:00.040 --> 0:08:02.360 So are there any prisons out there that are finding 0:08:02.400 --> 0:08:05.680 better results from a more reform based approach. So I 0:08:05.720 --> 0:08:07.600 actually looked into this and and it turns out some 0:08:07.680 --> 0:08:10.560 of the prisons with the lowest relapse rates also seemed 0:08:10.600 --> 0:08:13.440 to be the most humane, and Norway in particular does 0:08:13.480 --> 0:08:15.800 a great job with this. So one of the most 0:08:15.880 --> 0:08:19.440 famous is this prison on Bastoy Island, where prisoners are 0:08:19.480 --> 0:08:23.280 allowed to ride horses, go fishing, play tennis. They can 0:08:23.320 --> 0:08:26.840 even go skiing. And they don't live in cramped cells 0:08:26.880 --> 0:08:30.280 either like Instead, the roughly hundred fifteen prisoners are so 0:08:30.400 --> 0:08:33.160 on this island, they shared these little quaint cottages and 0:08:33.160 --> 0:08:34.960 and they also have the freedom to wear their own 0:08:34.960 --> 0:08:37.960 clothes instead of prison uniforms. They can visit the prison 0:08:38.040 --> 0:08:40.800 library or church or even the shop whenever they want. 0:08:40.880 --> 0:08:43.120 Are you I mean this kind of sounds like a resort, man, 0:08:43.600 --> 0:08:45.959 I'm not sure this is a prison. So I fact 0:08:46.040 --> 0:08:49.280 checked this and it is a prison. But that's actually 0:08:49.280 --> 0:08:52.800 the main complaint against Bastoy Like critics say the software 0:08:52.800 --> 0:08:55.040 approach makes it feel more like a summer camp than 0:08:55.080 --> 0:08:58.760 a correctional facility. But in its defense, best Toy isn't 0:08:58.800 --> 0:09:02.000 all fun and games, like the inmates actually work every 0:09:02.000 --> 0:09:04.640 single day. They tend to the Islands horses and sheep. 0:09:04.760 --> 0:09:07.600 They help out on the farm. They chopped down trees 0:09:07.640 --> 0:09:09.640 to use as firewood. I don't know. That still sounds 0:09:09.679 --> 0:09:12.120 like camp to me. They also take part in the 0:09:12.160 --> 0:09:15.480 specialized training programs that that teach them new skills to 0:09:15.600 --> 0:09:18.200 use once they're released. Then some of them also helped 0:09:18.320 --> 0:09:22.480 run the island's ferry service ferry service sheep farm. Once 0:09:22.480 --> 0:09:24.200 again I have to ask, are you sure this is 0:09:24.240 --> 0:09:28.280 a prison? So it's actually the world's first ecological prison, 0:09:28.360 --> 0:09:31.160 and and it uses solar panels for energy, grows most 0:09:31.200 --> 0:09:34.080 of its own food, and recycles as much as possible. 0:09:34.360 --> 0:09:36.560 And the whole idea is for inmates to claim a 0:09:36.559 --> 0:09:39.960 lot of personal responsibility for their actions, including how they 0:09:40.000 --> 0:09:43.199 affect others as well as the environment. So one example 0:09:43.200 --> 0:09:45.120 of this is that most of the prison staff actually 0:09:45.200 --> 0:09:48.079 leaves the island at night by that ferry service. And 0:09:48.400 --> 0:09:51.080 so the prisoners are expected to take care of themselves 0:09:51.080 --> 0:09:53.680 and be on their best behavior even when they aren't 0:09:53.679 --> 0:09:56.600 being supervised. So let me just find this quote for you. 0:09:57.720 --> 0:10:00.520 Gerhard Plogue, who's the senior advice as are in the 0:10:00.600 --> 0:10:05.200 Norwegian Ministry of Justice, he explained the prisons approach this way. Quote, 0:10:05.720 --> 0:10:09.240 life inside prison needs to resemble life outside as much 0:10:09.280 --> 0:10:13.160 as security considerations and resources allow. The more gradual the 0:10:13.160 --> 0:10:16.800 transformation from imprisonment to freedom, the better the chances to 0:10:16.840 --> 0:10:19.600 prevent reoffending. I mean, I have to admit that that 0:10:19.800 --> 0:10:22.160 is pretty neat, but I'm curious, like is it working 0:10:22.440 --> 0:10:25.240 or what kind of results would best would be seeing. Yeah, 0:10:25.280 --> 0:10:28.640 so the prison has this incredibly low number of repeat offenders, 0:10:28.880 --> 0:10:31.640 which is actually the norm for Norway. It's it's national 0:10:31.720 --> 0:10:36.480 recidivism rate harrors between sixt Wow. And I wonder how 0:10:36.520 --> 0:10:38.360 much of that is just people reoffending so they can 0:10:38.400 --> 0:10:40.240 get back to living the good life on the prison 0:10:40.280 --> 0:10:43.240 island resort you described. Yeah, so so Norway it has 0:10:43.240 --> 0:10:45.480 thought about that too, and it's not at all like that. 0:10:45.720 --> 0:10:48.560 Prisoners first have to demonstrate a willingness to change while 0:10:48.640 --> 0:10:51.440 serving time into more traditional jail, and then they can 0:10:51.480 --> 0:10:54.400 apply to like some of these more lenient prison systems 0:10:54.400 --> 0:10:56.720 like Best Toy, But you don't have to worry about 0:10:56.720 --> 0:11:00.319 people abusing the system. If you reoffend or try to ape, 0:11:00.400 --> 0:11:02.680 you don't get to come back. Yeah, you know, I 0:11:02.720 --> 0:11:05.000 wondered about people trying to escape as well. I mean 0:11:05.000 --> 0:11:07.520 that there aren't any gates or walls or anything from 0:11:07.559 --> 0:11:09.960 what you described, and it feels like that would make 0:11:10.080 --> 0:11:12.679 escape pretty tempting. I don't know, I mean, except for 0:11:12.720 --> 0:11:14.679 the fact that life is already so easy there, I 0:11:14.679 --> 0:11:17.120 don't know why you'd bother to try to escape. Well, 0:11:17.320 --> 0:11:20.280 one prisoner did escape Bestoy in two thousand fifteen. He 0:11:20.400 --> 0:11:23.520 was paddling away from the island on a surfboard. I 0:11:23.600 --> 0:11:25.480 love that they had a surfboard there to begin with, 0:11:26.200 --> 0:11:29.599 but they call him pretty quickly. Okay, okay, Well, I 0:11:29.640 --> 0:11:32.240 actually I found a different reab centric prison in Norway 0:11:32.240 --> 0:11:34.960 and it's called Halden. And while this one doesn't offer 0:11:35.000 --> 0:11:38.000 ski trips or ferry boat rides it, it does have 0:11:38.080 --> 0:11:40.600 some features that make it feel more like, I don't know, 0:11:40.640 --> 0:11:43.439 like a modern apartment building. So there are two d 0:11:43.559 --> 0:11:46.200 and fifty two prisoners there, and each one has given 0:11:46.200 --> 0:11:49.959 a private cell with a flat screen TV, a mini fridge, 0:11:50.080 --> 0:11:53.000 and an onsuite bathroom. And you know, not only do 0:11:53.080 --> 0:11:56.000 prisoners have access to shared spaces like kitchens and living 0:11:56.080 --> 0:11:59.079 rooms and even a gym that has this rock climbing wall. 0:11:59.320 --> 0:12:02.440 There's also a recording studio for inmates to explore their 0:12:02.480 --> 0:12:05.440 creative sides. That's pretty awesome. So this sounds way more 0:12:05.559 --> 0:12:08.760 urban than the rustic cottages at Bastoy. And we know 0:12:08.840 --> 0:12:11.360 the interiors are nice, but are the prisoners are allowed 0:12:11.360 --> 0:12:13.880 to leave the facilities? Are they allowed to go outside? Yeah, definitely. 0:12:13.880 --> 0:12:16.240 I mean there's there's a jogging trail outside and lots 0:12:16.240 --> 0:12:19.640 of benches and stone chessboards scattered through the grounds. And 0:12:20.120 --> 0:12:22.720 unlike those Quaker prisons you were talking about, the design 0:12:22.840 --> 0:12:25.840 is is actually meant to encourage interactions between inmates and 0:12:25.920 --> 0:12:29.560 staff members. So guards and prisoners often eat together or 0:12:29.600 --> 0:12:32.600 play sports together outside. And you know, the whole prison 0:12:32.679 --> 0:12:35.839 is surrounded by this twenty ft high security wall, and 0:12:35.880 --> 0:12:38.440 the designers left plenty of trees inside the perimeter to 0:12:38.480 --> 0:12:41.080 help to obscure it, and it kind of reduces that 0:12:41.120 --> 0:12:44.040 institutional feel of the space. And in the words of 0:12:44.040 --> 0:12:47.240 one of the architects, the landscaping quote lets the inmates 0:12:47.320 --> 0:12:50.160 see all the seasons. So, I mean, I know everyone 0:12:50.200 --> 0:12:53.720 appreciates these changing colors and seeing flowers bloom, but I 0:12:53.760 --> 0:12:55.840 can also appreciate the point of view that these kinds 0:12:55.880 --> 0:12:59.640 of induligences might be going overboard. I mean, these prisoners 0:12:59.800 --> 0:13:02.240 did break the law, so how much will we be 0:13:02.280 --> 0:13:04.920 going out of our way to make them comfortable? I mean, 0:13:04.960 --> 0:13:07.320 you described a summer camp earlier, and this is the 0:13:07.320 --> 0:13:09.000 one you're taking issue with that that, you know, it 0:13:09.120 --> 0:13:11.280 sort of goes back to that question of what's the 0:13:11.280 --> 0:13:14.160 main goal of imprisonment, you know, because I might argue 0:13:14.160 --> 0:13:16.319 that it's the court's job to punish a criminal by 0:13:16.360 --> 0:13:19.600 sending them to prison, and so being separated from family 0:13:19.720 --> 0:13:23.400 and friends and having your liberty curtailed, that is the punishment. 0:13:23.679 --> 0:13:26.000 And so from that angle, the punishment has already been 0:13:26.040 --> 0:13:28.720 carried out. But from that point on, the prisoners should 0:13:28.720 --> 0:13:32.040 be focused on remorse and rehab. Yeah, I mean that's 0:13:32.040 --> 0:13:34.360 a strong argument, and and really I think the only 0:13:34.400 --> 0:13:36.960 reason this more lenient approach gives some of us pause 0:13:37.360 --> 0:13:39.880 is that it's such a foreign concept to us. Like 0:13:40.480 --> 0:13:43.400 we're so used to thinking of prisoners as these faceless 0:13:43.480 --> 0:13:46.560 wrongdoers and in need of punishment that that we almost 0:13:46.600 --> 0:13:49.120 want the time they serve to be miserable. It's what 0:13:49.160 --> 0:13:51.720 we think they deserve as criminals, right, and that's also 0:13:51.840 --> 0:13:54.640 human nature, but it is what I find refreshing about 0:13:54.679 --> 0:13:57.720 these prisons in Norway. And as strange as that might sound, 0:13:57.800 --> 0:14:00.480 is that they're way more hopeful about prison and reform 0:14:00.559 --> 0:14:02.679 than we are here in the States. And I think 0:14:02.720 --> 0:14:05.240 that's because they haven't forgotten that these are human beings 0:14:05.240 --> 0:14:07.400 we're talking about. I mean, these are citizens who can 0:14:07.440 --> 0:14:10.680 still contribute to society if if given a real chance 0:14:10.720 --> 0:14:13.080 to do so. So I read this article about hold 0:14:13.120 --> 0:14:16.240 in prison written by a research professor in criminology name 0:14:16.360 --> 0:14:19.720 is Her name is Ivan Jukes, and she really nails 0:14:19.760 --> 0:14:23.040 the importance of the rehab based approach to prison. So 0:14:23.120 --> 0:14:26.320 she writes, this is not about making prisons softer or 0:14:26.400 --> 0:14:30.320 less of a deterrent to criminals. Normalizing prisons is essential 0:14:30.720 --> 0:14:32.920 if they are to be more than human warehouses that 0:14:33.000 --> 0:14:36.359 return offenders to society with their lives even more fractured 0:14:36.600 --> 0:14:39.080 and their life chances even more reduced than when they 0:14:39.120 --> 0:14:42.920 were admitted. The short term and long term cost of imprisonment, 0:14:43.280 --> 0:14:47.880 human and economic are staggering and unsustainable. Well, I can 0:14:47.880 --> 0:14:50.200 definitely get behind that. In fact, why don't we dig 0:14:50.240 --> 0:14:53.240 into some of the specifics of those costs, Like, I know, 0:14:53.280 --> 0:14:55.080 we spend a crazy amount of money each year on 0:14:55.080 --> 0:14:57.960 prison construction and upkeep, not to mention what it takes 0:14:57.960 --> 0:15:00.920 to actually house and feed millions of in it's I'm 0:15:00.920 --> 0:15:02.760 just gonna go ahead and rip off the band aid here. 0:15:03.160 --> 0:15:07.680 Incarceration costs US taxpayers over seventy billion dollars each year, 0:15:08.000 --> 0:15:10.320 and that breaks down to more than thirty thousand dollars 0:15:10.320 --> 0:15:14.120 spent per prisoner. That is huge. Yeah, that's that's rough. Yeah, 0:15:14.120 --> 0:15:16.280 And of course that's just the monetary cost of prison. 0:15:16.360 --> 0:15:18.640 I mean, we already touched on the emotional pain that 0:15:18.760 --> 0:15:20.840 jail time can cause, and I don't want to dwell 0:15:20.880 --> 0:15:23.080 too much on those issues, important as they are, but 0:15:23.240 --> 0:15:25.640 in this discussion of costs, I do think we should 0:15:25.680 --> 0:15:28.640 talk a little bit about the jails and prisons themselves, definitely. 0:15:28.680 --> 0:15:30.880 So I was looking at some of these figures as well, 0:15:31.000 --> 0:15:34.040 and there are over a hundred federal prisons and close 0:15:34.160 --> 0:15:36.400 to I think two thousand state ones in the US, 0:15:36.480 --> 0:15:39.600 and many of these are massive, I mean, these sprawling 0:15:39.680 --> 0:15:43.000 complexes that must cost a ton to build and then 0:15:43.000 --> 0:15:45.360 to maintain of course. Yeah, And and depending on the 0:15:45.440 --> 0:15:47.600 number of people it's meant to house, a single prison 0:15:47.640 --> 0:15:50.720 can easily cost well over a hundred million dollars. And 0:15:50.880 --> 0:15:53.560 like you said, we have so many correctional facilities, like 0:15:53.640 --> 0:15:55.920 in fact, there are more than five thousand jails and 0:15:56.400 --> 0:16:00.160 um county facilities like in the country right now, and 0:16:00.200 --> 0:16:02.360 if you add those up, that's more than the total 0:16:02.480 --> 0:16:05.000 number of colleges in the whole US well. And not 0:16:05.040 --> 0:16:07.520 only that, but they're overcrowded. I mean, I remember this 0:16:07.560 --> 0:16:09.200 story from just a couple of years ago about a 0:16:09.200 --> 0:16:12.920 prison in California that gave early releases to ten thousand inmates, 0:16:13.160 --> 0:16:16.520 and this was just ease. Overcrowding, Yeah, I mean, overcrowding 0:16:16.560 --> 0:16:19.320 is obviously the serious problem, and it's it's not just 0:16:19.360 --> 0:16:21.600 the logistical nightmare of trying to house people in a 0:16:21.600 --> 0:16:23.880 place where there's no room for them. I mean there's 0:16:23.880 --> 0:16:27.160 also the emotional and psychological toll of living in those conditions. 0:16:27.800 --> 0:16:30.520 It's no secret that our environment can have this direct 0:16:30.600 --> 0:16:33.800 impact on our behavior. I remember reading the study from 0:16:33.840 --> 0:16:36.520 forever ago about like the proportion of fist fights that 0:16:36.560 --> 0:16:38.920 break out when people bump into each other, and that 0:16:38.960 --> 0:16:41.720 people from crowded cities were more accustomed to getting bumped 0:16:41.760 --> 0:16:44.760 into But still, like, what kind of behavior can you 0:16:44.760 --> 0:16:48.040 expect from people crammed into like a bleak, depressing building 0:16:48.080 --> 0:16:51.880 and made to live together under surveillance. I mean, think 0:16:51.880 --> 0:16:54.480 about that story you told at the top, Like, narrow 0:16:54.480 --> 0:16:57.120 windows are great for not letting heat escape in the winter, 0:16:57.240 --> 0:16:59.400 but what does a sliver of a view do for 0:16:59.440 --> 0:17:02.120 your mental Yeah, that's true, and you know, it's easy 0:17:02.120 --> 0:17:04.520 to imagine how the added tention of living on top 0:17:04.560 --> 0:17:07.000 of one another, plus the disgusting food. I mean that 0:17:07.280 --> 0:17:10.040 all might lead to outburst. And you know, of course, 0:17:10.080 --> 0:17:13.480 bad behavior leads to more time being added to prison sentences, 0:17:13.920 --> 0:17:16.440 which keeps people locked up for longer and makes things 0:17:16.480 --> 0:17:20.320 harder for their families, and obviously it costs taxpayers more money. 0:17:20.640 --> 0:17:24.919 It's this layered, complicated problem and it's so wide reaching. Yeah, so, 0:17:25.000 --> 0:17:26.560 not only do we need to build a better prison 0:17:26.560 --> 0:17:29.879 in terms of policy, we also need to physically construct 0:17:29.960 --> 0:17:32.960 better prisons. Right. Well, we definitely shouldn't add to the 0:17:32.960 --> 0:17:35.480 total number of prisons, since that's already way too high 0:17:35.520 --> 0:17:38.120 as it is, but one option would be to replace 0:17:38.160 --> 0:17:40.520 the current ones with newer models that break from the 0:17:40.520 --> 0:17:44.440 traditional concrete box with washtower approaches. I mean, I don't 0:17:44.440 --> 0:17:47.320 know who decided prison buildings need to reflect the duriness 0:17:47.359 --> 0:17:50.080 of actually being in prison, but I'm not sure, it's 0:17:50.119 --> 0:17:52.920 doing anyone any favors. Well, there's a couple of places 0:17:52.920 --> 0:17:55.800 out there, like these high schools and college campuses that 0:17:55.840 --> 0:17:58.400 I've noticed over the years that look a lot like prisons. 0:17:58.400 --> 0:18:00.280 And I don't know if you've ever noticed this before, 0:18:00.280 --> 0:18:03.359 but there's this uncanny resemblance between them. Sometimes. Have you 0:18:03.440 --> 0:18:05.320 noticed this? Yeah, I mean you think about the older 0:18:05.359 --> 0:18:08.040 schools that had those like boxy, boring designs and like 0:18:08.200 --> 0:18:12.239 concrete and like drewery long hallways. I can see that, right. 0:18:12.280 --> 0:18:14.520 So I actually decided to look into this, and it 0:18:14.560 --> 0:18:18.439 seems that there's actually a connection between the two. Really. Yes, 0:18:18.520 --> 0:18:21.600 So the architect responsible for the San Quentin State Prison 0:18:21.760 --> 0:18:25.040 also designed a couple of California high schools, and that 0:18:25.119 --> 0:18:27.760 kind of overlap isn't uncommon, I mean, especially for high 0:18:27.800 --> 0:18:30.679 schools and colleges that were built in the sixties and seventies. 0:18:30.920 --> 0:18:32.560 So I want to dig into this a little deeper. 0:18:32.640 --> 0:18:34.720 So tell me why that is. Well, there was this 0:18:34.840 --> 0:18:38.479 architectural style called brutalism, and this was really popular at 0:18:38.520 --> 0:18:42.000 the time, and all kinds of public buildings and institutional 0:18:42.040 --> 0:18:45.800 structures were built using brutalist designs. They were full of 0:18:45.840 --> 0:18:49.280 these sharp angles and heavy solid shapes that were cast 0:18:49.320 --> 0:18:53.160 in this reinforced concrete, and universities were looking to show 0:18:53.200 --> 0:18:56.240 how modern they were, so they started using these blocky, 0:18:56.560 --> 0:19:00.919 bunker like buildings as auditoriums or libraries or even dorms. 0:19:00.960 --> 0:19:03.600 So then what happened Like everyone suddenly decided that these 0:19:03.640 --> 0:19:06.720 places look like prisons. Yeah, so pretty much. I mean, 0:19:06.760 --> 0:19:09.639 public opinion turned on them pretty quickly, and so tons 0:19:09.640 --> 0:19:13.000 of students and faculty and other members of school communities 0:19:13.000 --> 0:19:15.600 began to speak out about how ugly these new buildings were. 0:19:15.640 --> 0:19:18.120 And it even sparked a bunch of urban legends about 0:19:18.160 --> 0:19:22.439 colleges being built purposely to disorient and intimidate students, you know, 0:19:22.680 --> 0:19:26.280 in order to prevent riots and political demonstrations. But you know, 0:19:26.320 --> 0:19:29.480 at any rate, the brutal is fad died down pretty quickly, 0:19:29.640 --> 0:19:33.080 at least for the school designs. But prison buildings, well, 0:19:33.160 --> 0:19:36.280 we kept building these in the same style for decades after. 0:19:36.800 --> 0:19:40.160 There's something about how impersonal but also functional it look 0:19:40.240 --> 0:19:43.680 that made it perfect for jail houses. Well, brutalism is 0:19:43.680 --> 0:19:46.000 definitely the right name for it. But you know, it's 0:19:46.040 --> 0:19:49.679