1 00:00:00,080 --> 00:00:02,720 Speaker 1: Guess what mango? What's that will? So I fell down 2 00:00:02,720 --> 00:00:05,279 Speaker 1: this rabbit hole. Last week I was looking up buildings 3 00:00:05,280 --> 00:00:07,840 Speaker 1: that were good for the environment, and I stumbled into 4 00:00:07,840 --> 00:00:11,399 Speaker 1: America's LEADS certified prisons. So there are a few across 5 00:00:11,440 --> 00:00:13,600 Speaker 1: the country. There's the one that Bernie Madoff is in 6 00:00:13,760 --> 00:00:17,079 Speaker 1: in Buttoner, North Carolina. There's one in California that's supposed 7 00:00:17,120 --> 00:00:19,440 Speaker 1: to be the greenest. But the one I really dived 8 00:00:19,480 --> 00:00:23,000 Speaker 1: into was this article about Coyote Ridge Corrections Facility. It's 9 00:00:23,000 --> 00:00:26,400 Speaker 1: in Washington State, and it's this medium security prison that 10 00:00:26,480 --> 00:00:29,000 Speaker 1: was built in two thousand and ten. And on paper, 11 00:00:29,040 --> 00:00:32,080 Speaker 1: it's pretty impressive. I mean, they've managed to reduce water 12 00:00:32,120 --> 00:00:34,720 Speaker 1: consumption by five and a half million gallons a year. 13 00:00:35,159 --> 00:00:37,720 Speaker 1: It's about four hundred thousand dollars cheaper and energy costs 14 00:00:37,720 --> 00:00:40,840 Speaker 1: than a comparable prison. They used narrow windows to trap 15 00:00:40,880 --> 00:00:43,200 Speaker 1: the heat in winter, but also to keep the place 16 00:00:43,240 --> 00:00:46,120 Speaker 1: cool in summer, and all of that sounds pretty good. Well, 17 00:00:46,159 --> 00:00:49,000 Speaker 1: you know, it's the first full prison campus that's completely 18 00:00:49,080 --> 00:00:52,600 Speaker 1: LEAD certified, so you think it might be beautiful as well, 19 00:00:52,920 --> 00:00:55,040 Speaker 1: But when you peek inside, it just looks like a 20 00:00:55,120 --> 00:00:58,880 Speaker 1: horrible cement prison out that that's so disheartening, and you know, 21 00:00:58,920 --> 00:01:00,600 Speaker 1: it kind of made me wonder, like, what do some 22 00:01:00,680 --> 00:01:03,400 Speaker 1: of the more interesting prisons around the world look like today, 23 00:01:03,440 --> 00:01:05,360 Speaker 1: and what are some of the changes that are being 24 00:01:05,360 --> 00:01:07,839 Speaker 1: made that seem to be working. So that's what today's 25 00:01:07,840 --> 00:01:29,440 Speaker 1: show is all about. Hey, their podcast listeners, welcome to 26 00:01:29,480 --> 00:01:32,000 Speaker 1: Part Time Genius. I'm Will Pearson and as always I'm 27 00:01:32,040 --> 00:01:34,520 Speaker 1: joined by my good friend man guest and the man 28 00:01:34,600 --> 00:01:37,919 Speaker 1: behind that soundproof glass is aspiring novelist and country music 29 00:01:38,000 --> 00:01:41,360 Speaker 1: legend Christin McNeil. Now, as we mentioned at the top 30 00:01:41,360 --> 00:01:43,319 Speaker 1: of the show, today's episode is looking into how to 31 00:01:43,400 --> 00:01:46,120 Speaker 1: build a better prison, and we're gonna save things like 32 00:01:46,160 --> 00:01:49,600 Speaker 1: how prisons work and great escape stories for future episodes, 33 00:01:49,680 --> 00:01:51,960 Speaker 1: but you know, today's show is really about how to 34 00:01:51,960 --> 00:01:54,760 Speaker 1: build a system that works better for us all. I mean, 35 00:01:54,760 --> 00:01:57,960 Speaker 1: however you feel about the humane aspects of locking people up, 36 00:01:58,320 --> 00:02:02,200 Speaker 1: the economic aspects of prison affect everybody. So we'll take 37 00:02:02,200 --> 00:02:04,120 Speaker 1: a look at how some prisons from around the globe 38 00:02:04,160 --> 00:02:07,080 Speaker 1: have reformed their approaches. Sure, so that's why you see 39 00:02:07,080 --> 00:02:10,760 Speaker 1: those YouTube videos of Filipino prisoners doing thriller together, or 40 00:02:10,919 --> 00:02:14,080 Speaker 1: even why Brazil allows prisoners to do book reports to 41 00:02:14,080 --> 00:02:16,359 Speaker 1: get time off their sentence for every book they read. 42 00:02:16,680 --> 00:02:18,480 Speaker 1: And and you know, that's clearly an attempt to deal 43 00:02:18,520 --> 00:02:20,720 Speaker 1: with overcrowding. And it actually kind of reminded me of 44 00:02:20,760 --> 00:02:23,200 Speaker 1: that whole pizza Hut bookt programs you participate in that 45 00:02:23,320 --> 00:02:25,480 Speaker 1: as a kid. You know, you get a pizza for 46 00:02:25,560 --> 00:02:27,880 Speaker 1: every I think it was five books that you proved 47 00:02:27,960 --> 00:02:30,000 Speaker 1: that you read. I don't know how you proved it exactly, 48 00:02:30,040 --> 00:02:31,840 Speaker 1: but you know, except in this case, you get four 49 00:02:31,880 --> 00:02:34,040 Speaker 1: days off for every book you write a report for. 50 00:02:34,200 --> 00:02:37,120 Speaker 1: And also it has to be grammatically perfect or it 51 00:02:37,200 --> 00:02:39,800 Speaker 1: doesn't count. But if you read twelve books, you can 52 00:02:39,800 --> 00:02:42,720 Speaker 1: get a maximum of forty eight days off your sentence. 53 00:02:43,040 --> 00:02:45,760 Speaker 1: And of course not every prisoner is eligible. But you know, 54 00:02:45,880 --> 00:02:47,799 Speaker 1: just like that one, we're going to shine a light 55 00:02:47,840 --> 00:02:50,040 Speaker 1: on a few of the innovative programs that are getting 56 00:02:50,080 --> 00:02:53,880 Speaker 1: positive results both here and abroad. Right, And obviously we 57 00:02:53,919 --> 00:02:56,040 Speaker 1: aren't going to come up with clear cut solutions for 58 00:02:56,080 --> 00:02:59,360 Speaker 1: such complex issues, at least not in forty minutes of chatter. 59 00:02:59,520 --> 00:03:01,640 Speaker 1: But what we can do is get a better sense 60 00:03:01,639 --> 00:03:03,920 Speaker 1: of the problem and some ways people are looking to 61 00:03:03,960 --> 00:03:06,320 Speaker 1: address them. All Right, so let's start with what people 62 00:03:06,360 --> 00:03:09,119 Speaker 1: probably already know about the US prison system, and that's 63 00:03:09,200 --> 00:03:11,959 Speaker 1: namely that it's massive. And by massive, I mean that 64 00:03:12,000 --> 00:03:15,200 Speaker 1: our country has the largest prison population in the world. 65 00:03:15,639 --> 00:03:17,880 Speaker 1: So that's actually not all. We also have the world's 66 00:03:17,919 --> 00:03:21,760 Speaker 1: highest prison rate. Out of every one hundred thousand Americans, 67 00:03:22,080 --> 00:03:25,720 Speaker 1: roughly seven hundred and twenty four are behind bars, and 68 00:03:25,760 --> 00:03:28,240 Speaker 1: for anyone keeping track, that's about a hundred and fifty 69 00:03:28,240 --> 00:03:31,840 Speaker 1: people more than Russia's second place. Right. Yeah, So I've 70 00:03:31,880 --> 00:03:35,680 Speaker 1: read this report from a group called the Prison Policy Initiative, 71 00:03:35,760 --> 00:03:38,320 Speaker 1: and it actually concluded that there are more than two 72 00:03:38,320 --> 00:03:42,360 Speaker 1: point three million people currently incarcerated in the US. And 73 00:03:42,520 --> 00:03:44,440 Speaker 1: if that doesn't sound like a lot to you, keep 74 00:03:44,440 --> 00:03:47,120 Speaker 1: in mind that the whole population of New Mexico is 75 00:03:47,200 --> 00:03:49,600 Speaker 1: just over two million. That actually does sound like a 76 00:03:49,640 --> 00:03:51,280 Speaker 1: lot to me. I'm not sure who that wouldn't sound 77 00:03:51,360 --> 00:03:53,560 Speaker 1: like a lot too, But actually, does this mean that 78 00:03:53,600 --> 00:03:55,440 Speaker 1: we have more people in jail or in prison that 79 00:03:55,480 --> 00:03:58,600 Speaker 1: we have living in an entire state? Yeah, or two 80 00:03:58,640 --> 00:04:01,240 Speaker 1: states if you take Delaware, US Rhode Island. I mean, 81 00:04:01,440 --> 00:04:04,240 Speaker 1: two point three million is a lot of people. It's 82 00:04:04,280 --> 00:04:07,160 Speaker 1: it's almost one percent of the national population. Wow. You know, 83 00:04:07,200 --> 00:04:09,320 Speaker 1: and of course when you factor in the family members 84 00:04:09,320 --> 00:04:11,440 Speaker 1: of the prisoners who make up that one percent, that 85 00:04:11,560 --> 00:04:15,680 Speaker 1: number actually affected by incarceration swells even larger. So I 86 00:04:15,720 --> 00:04:18,200 Speaker 1: read this Pew study that found that nearly three million 87 00:04:18,279 --> 00:04:21,160 Speaker 1: children in the US have a parent in prison. Back 88 00:04:21,160 --> 00:04:23,280 Speaker 1: in the nineteen seventies, that was true for about one 89 00:04:23,279 --> 00:04:25,960 Speaker 1: out of a hundred and twenty five kids, but today 90 00:04:26,080 --> 00:04:29,080 Speaker 1: it's one in twenty eight. And according to that same 91 00:04:29,120 --> 00:04:32,640 Speaker 1: Pew study, two thirds of these kids parents were incarcerated 92 00:04:32,680 --> 00:04:35,760 Speaker 1: for non violent offenses. So that that reminds me. Do 93 00:04:35,760 --> 00:04:38,120 Speaker 1: you remember that a secret museum in New York City? 94 00:04:38,240 --> 00:04:40,240 Speaker 1: I remember we covered it in previous episode, right, Yeah, 95 00:04:40,640 --> 00:04:43,000 Speaker 1: we've definitely talked about it. But for those who don't 96 00:04:43,000 --> 00:04:45,200 Speaker 1: know about it, it's this tiny museum that's housed an 97 00:04:45,279 --> 00:04:48,160 Speaker 1: elevator shaft, and every shelf of it's treated like its 98 00:04:48,160 --> 00:04:50,800 Speaker 1: own wing. But but the curators there had all these 99 00:04:50,839 --> 00:04:53,520 Speaker 1: giant backgrounds of things when I visited of places like 100 00:04:53,520 --> 00:04:56,919 Speaker 1: Hawaii or Greece or whatever, and and I asked what 101 00:04:57,000 --> 00:04:59,520 Speaker 1: they were, and the guys told me that their backgrounds 102 00:04:59,640 --> 00:05:03,120 Speaker 1: used to take vacation photos at prisons. Basically, prisoners can 103 00:05:03,160 --> 00:05:05,800 Speaker 1: save up and use their pay or good behavior to 104 00:05:05,839 --> 00:05:08,479 Speaker 1: take photos with their families in these backgrounds, so that 105 00:05:08,520 --> 00:05:10,479 Speaker 1: the families have photos with their kids that look like 106 00:05:10,480 --> 00:05:13,040 Speaker 1: they've been able to go on vacations together. And I mean, 107 00:05:13,040 --> 00:05:15,640 Speaker 1: when I saw this, I just found it so heartbreaking. 108 00:05:15,800 --> 00:05:18,760 Speaker 1: But what's worse is the recidivism rates of prisons. So 109 00:05:19,000 --> 00:05:22,240 Speaker 1: according to the Bureau of Justice, about three quarters or 110 00:05:22,400 --> 00:05:26,320 Speaker 1: seventy six point six percent of release prisoners were rearrested 111 00:05:26,360 --> 00:05:29,680 Speaker 1: within five years, which is a terrible track record for 112 00:05:29,839 --> 00:05:32,520 Speaker 1: US rehabilitation. Yeah, and and that's actually one of the 113 00:05:32,560 --> 00:05:35,000 Speaker 1: main problems I came across in my research as well, 114 00:05:35,080 --> 00:05:38,159 Speaker 1: is that our current system, you know, this current prison system, 115 00:05:38,279 --> 00:05:41,760 Speaker 1: it's largely designed to punish and and not to rehabilitate, 116 00:05:42,080 --> 00:05:46,360 Speaker 1: which I'm sure wasn't the initial intention. Like in Delaware history, 117 00:05:46,360 --> 00:05:49,000 Speaker 1: I remember learning about William Penn and how he and 118 00:05:49,040 --> 00:05:52,080 Speaker 1: other Quakers tried to change the prison system from this 119 00:05:52,200 --> 00:05:55,920 Speaker 1: sort of overcrowded and inhumane conditions they saw in London. 120 00:05:56,240 --> 00:05:59,120 Speaker 1: And one of the ways was with penitentiaries, Like the 121 00:05:59,160 --> 00:06:01,240 Speaker 1: idea was that you can go there to be penitent 122 00:06:01,440 --> 00:06:04,680 Speaker 1: and so they were totally quiet spaces and prisoners were 123 00:06:04,680 --> 00:06:07,720 Speaker 1: given their own cells and the food was simple but good, 124 00:06:08,080 --> 00:06:09,760 Speaker 1: and the whole idea was you get to think about 125 00:06:09,800 --> 00:06:11,599 Speaker 1: your crimes and how you want to make amends to 126 00:06:11,680 --> 00:06:15,000 Speaker 1: society once you're out, which sounds good in theory, but 127 00:06:15,120 --> 00:06:18,640 Speaker 1: in practice it was actually a terrible idea. Like this 128 00:06:18,800 --> 00:06:22,839 Speaker 1: humane idea was actually just putting people into solitary confinement, 129 00:06:23,160 --> 00:06:25,800 Speaker 1: which actually drove people crazy. That makes sense. I really 130 00:06:25,800 --> 00:06:27,479 Speaker 1: didn't think of it that way. But you know, the 131 00:06:27,560 --> 00:06:30,479 Speaker 1: history of prisons is filled with stories of good intentions 132 00:06:30,520 --> 00:06:32,760 Speaker 1: gone bad. And one of the things you realize in 133 00:06:32,800 --> 00:06:34,719 Speaker 1: looking at the history is that there was a major 134 00:06:34,839 --> 00:06:37,640 Speaker 1: shift in the nation's approach to prisons and the seventies 135 00:06:37,640 --> 00:06:40,080 Speaker 1: and eighties, and this around the time we became less 136 00:06:40,120 --> 00:06:43,000 Speaker 1: concerned with helping prisoners get their lives back on track 137 00:06:43,520 --> 00:06:46,039 Speaker 1: and much more interested in making sure they suffered for 138 00:06:46,080 --> 00:06:49,320 Speaker 1: their crimes. And that's when the war on drugs really started, 139 00:06:49,360 --> 00:06:51,960 Speaker 1: and also the big push to get tough on crime. 140 00:06:52,080 --> 00:06:56,400 Speaker 1: You know, these mandatory minimum sentences even for non violent crimes, right, 141 00:06:56,480 --> 00:06:58,960 Speaker 1: And during that time, the budgets for programs that focused 142 00:06:58,960 --> 00:07:02,719 Speaker 1: on reintegrating prisoners, like they were totally slashed, and that 143 00:07:02,760 --> 00:07:05,680 Speaker 1: was partially to build new prisons. That we're being immediately filled. 144 00:07:06,160 --> 00:07:09,479 Speaker 1: And now the results of those policy changes speak for themselves, right, 145 00:07:09,560 --> 00:07:13,600 Speaker 1: Like the prison population has more than quadrupled since the eighties, 146 00:07:13,800 --> 00:07:15,520 Speaker 1: which is how we get to that over two million 147 00:07:15,600 --> 00:07:18,320 Speaker 1: number we were talking about, And all of that creates 148 00:07:18,320 --> 00:07:20,600 Speaker 1: a tax burden for citizens instead of working to have 149 00:07:20,640 --> 00:07:23,880 Speaker 1: all these X cons contributing to society. Well, you know, 150 00:07:23,960 --> 00:07:25,960 Speaker 1: I think it's safe to say that the criminal justice 151 00:07:25,960 --> 00:07:29,680 Speaker 1: system doesn't work well when the only goal is to punish. 152 00:07:29,760 --> 00:07:32,040 Speaker 1: Actual reminds me there's this Ricky Gervais joke where he 153 00:07:32,040 --> 00:07:34,640 Speaker 1: talks about how Mandela went to prison for twenty seven 154 00:07:34,720 --> 00:07:37,680 Speaker 1: years and then never committed another crime, and that tells us, 155 00:07:37,720 --> 00:07:40,520 Speaker 1: you know, the system works, And I mean, he's mocking 156 00:07:40,520 --> 00:07:42,560 Speaker 1: the idea that you can just send someone away and 157 00:07:42,600 --> 00:07:46,280 Speaker 1: they emerge rehabilitated. But as more criminals wind up doing 158 00:07:46,360 --> 00:07:49,200 Speaker 1: hard time for low level offenses and there's a lack 159 00:07:49,200 --> 00:07:52,680 Speaker 1: of reform programs, it really just leads to this revolving 160 00:07:52,720 --> 00:07:56,280 Speaker 1: door system where prisoners are rearrested soon after they're released. 161 00:07:57,360 --> 00:07:59,920 Speaker 1: You know. But the real question is what are the alternative? 162 00:08:00,040 --> 00:08:02,360 Speaker 1: So are there any prisons out there that are finding 163 00:08:02,400 --> 00:08:05,680 Speaker 1: better results from a more reform based approach. So I 164 00:08:05,720 --> 00:08:07,600 Speaker 1: actually looked into this and and it turns out some 165 00:08:07,680 --> 00:08:10,560 Speaker 1: of the prisons with the lowest relapse rates also seemed 166 00:08:10,600 --> 00:08:13,440 Speaker 1: to be the most humane, and Norway in particular does 167 00:08:13,480 --> 00:08:15,800 Speaker 1: a great job with this. So one of the most 168 00:08:15,880 --> 00:08:19,440 Speaker 1: famous is this prison on Bastoy Island, where prisoners are 169 00:08:19,480 --> 00:08:23,280 Speaker 1: allowed to ride horses, go fishing, play tennis. They can 170 00:08:23,320 --> 00:08:26,840 Speaker 1: even go skiing. And they don't live in cramped cells 171 00:08:26,880 --> 00:08:30,280 Speaker 1: either like Instead, the roughly hundred fifteen prisoners are so 172 00:08:30,400 --> 00:08:33,160 Speaker 1: on this island, they shared these little quaint cottages and 173 00:08:33,160 --> 00:08:34,960 Speaker 1: and they also have the freedom to wear their own 174 00:08:34,960 --> 00:08:37,960 Speaker 1: clothes instead of prison uniforms. They can visit the prison 175 00:08:38,040 --> 00:08:40,800 Speaker 1: library or church or even the shop whenever they want. 176 00:08:40,880 --> 00:08:43,120 Speaker 1: Are you I mean this kind of sounds like a resort, man, 177 00:08:43,600 --> 00:08:45,959 Speaker 1: I'm not sure this is a prison. So I fact 178 00:08:46,040 --> 00:08:49,280 Speaker 1: checked this and it is a prison. But that's actually 179 00:08:49,280 --> 00:08:52,800 Speaker 1: the main complaint against Bastoy Like critics say the software 180 00:08:52,800 --> 00:08:55,040 Speaker 1: approach makes it feel more like a summer camp than 181 00:08:55,080 --> 00:08:58,760 Speaker 1: a correctional facility. But in its defense, best Toy isn't 182 00:08:58,800 --> 00:09:02,000 Speaker 1: all fun and games, like the inmates actually work every 183 00:09:02,000 --> 00:09:04,640 Speaker 1: single day. They tend to the Islands horses and sheep. 184 00:09:04,760 --> 00:09:07,600 Speaker 1: They help out on the farm. They chopped down trees 185 00:09:07,640 --> 00:09:09,640 Speaker 1: to use as firewood. I don't know. That still sounds 186 00:09:09,679 --> 00:09:12,120 Speaker 1: like camp to me. They also take part in the 187 00:09:12,160 --> 00:09:15,480 Speaker 1: specialized training programs that that teach them new skills to 188 00:09:15,600 --> 00:09:18,200 Speaker 1: use once they're released. Then some of them also helped 189 00:09:18,320 --> 00:09:22,480 Speaker 1: run the island's ferry service ferry service sheep farm. Once 190 00:09:22,480 --> 00:09:24,200 Speaker 1: again I have to ask, are you sure this is 191 00:09:24,240 --> 00:09:28,280 Speaker 1: a prison? So it's actually the world's first ecological prison, 192 00:09:28,360 --> 00:09:31,160 Speaker 1: and and it uses solar panels for energy, grows most 193 00:09:31,200 --> 00:09:34,080 Speaker 1: of its own food, and recycles as much as possible. 194 00:09:34,360 --> 00:09:36,560 Speaker 1: And the whole idea is for inmates to claim a 195 00:09:36,559 --> 00:09:39,960 Speaker 1: lot of personal responsibility for their actions, including how they 196 00:09:40,000 --> 00:09:43,199 Speaker 1: affect others as well as the environment. So one example 197 00:09:43,200 --> 00:09:45,120 Speaker 1: of this is that most of the prison staff actually 198 00:09:45,200 --> 00:09:48,079 Speaker 1: leaves the island at night by that ferry service. And 199 00:09:48,400 --> 00:09:51,080 Speaker 1: so the prisoners are expected to take care of themselves 200 00:09:51,080 --> 00:09:53,680 Speaker 1: and be on their best behavior even when they aren't 201 00:09:53,679 --> 00:09:56,600 Speaker 1: being supervised. So let me just find this quote for you. 202 00:09:57,720 --> 00:10:00,520 Speaker 1: Gerhard Plogue, who's the senior advice as are in the 203 00:10:00,600 --> 00:10:05,200 Speaker 1: Norwegian Ministry of Justice, he explained the prisons approach this way. Quote, 204 00:10:05,720 --> 00:10:09,240 Speaker 1: life inside prison needs to resemble life outside as much 205 00:10:09,280 --> 00:10:13,160 Speaker 1: as security considerations and resources allow. The more gradual the 206 00:10:13,160 --> 00:10:16,800 Speaker 1: transformation from imprisonment to freedom, the better the chances to 207 00:10:16,840 --> 00:10:19,600 Speaker 1: prevent reoffending. I mean, I have to admit that that 208 00:10:19,800 --> 00:10:22,160 Speaker 1: is pretty neat, but I'm curious, like is it working 209 00:10:22,440 --> 00:10:25,240 Speaker 1: or what kind of results would best would be seeing. Yeah, 210 00:10:25,280 --> 00:10:28,640 Speaker 1: so the prison has this incredibly low number of repeat offenders, 211 00:10:28,880 --> 00:10:31,640 Speaker 1: which is actually the norm for Norway. It's it's national 212 00:10:31,720 --> 00:10:36,480 Speaker 1: recidivism rate harrors between sixt Wow. And I wonder how 213 00:10:36,520 --> 00:10:38,360 Speaker 1: much of that is just people reoffending so they can 214 00:10:38,400 --> 00:10:40,240 Speaker 1: get back to living the good life on the prison 215 00:10:40,280 --> 00:10:43,240 Speaker 1: island resort you described. Yeah, so so Norway it has 216 00:10:43,240 --> 00:10:45,480 Speaker 1: thought about that too, and it's not at all like that. 217 00:10:45,720 --> 00:10:48,560 Speaker 1: Prisoners first have to demonstrate a willingness to change while 218 00:10:48,640 --> 00:10:51,440 Speaker 1: serving time into more traditional jail, and then they can 219 00:10:51,480 --> 00:10:54,400 Speaker 1: apply to like some of these more lenient prison systems 220 00:10:54,400 --> 00:10:56,720 Speaker 1: like Best Toy, But you don't have to worry about 221 00:10:56,720 --> 00:11:00,319 Speaker 1: people abusing the system. If you reoffend or try to ape, 222 00:11:00,400 --> 00:11:02,680 Speaker 1: you don't get to come back. Yeah, you know, I 223 00:11:02,720 --> 00:11:05,000 Speaker 1: wondered about people trying to escape as well. I mean 224 00:11:05,000 --> 00:11:07,520 Speaker 1: that there aren't any gates or walls or anything from 225 00:11:07,559 --> 00:11:09,960 Speaker 1: what you described, and it feels like that would make 226 00:11:10,080 --> 00:11:12,679 Speaker 1: escape pretty tempting. I don't know, I mean, except for 227 00:11:12,720 --> 00:11:14,679 Speaker 1: the fact that life is already so easy there, I 228 00:11:14,679 --> 00:11:17,120 Speaker 1: don't know why you'd bother to try to escape. Well, 229 00:11:17,320 --> 00:11:20,280 Speaker 1: one prisoner did escape Bestoy in two thousand fifteen. He 230 00:11:20,400 --> 00:11:23,520 Speaker 1: was paddling away from the island on a surfboard. I 231 00:11:23,600 --> 00:11:25,480 Speaker 1: love that they had a surfboard there to begin with, 232 00:11:26,200 --> 00:11:29,599 Speaker 1: but they call him pretty quickly. Okay, okay, Well, I 233 00:11:29,640 --> 00:11:32,240 Speaker 1: actually I found a different reab centric prison in Norway 234 00:11:32,240 --> 00:11:34,960 Speaker 1: and it's called Halden. And while this one doesn't offer 235 00:11:35,000 --> 00:11:38,000 Speaker 1: ski trips or ferry boat rides it, it does have 236 00:11:38,080 --> 00:11:40,600 Speaker 1: some features that make it feel more like, I don't know, 237 00:11:40,640 --> 00:11:43,439 Speaker 1: like a modern apartment building. So there are two d 238 00:11:43,559 --> 00:11:46,200 Speaker 1: and fifty two prisoners there, and each one has given 239 00:11:46,200 --> 00:11:49,959 Speaker 1: a private cell with a flat screen TV, a mini fridge, 240 00:11:50,080 --> 00:11:53,000 Speaker 1: and an onsuite bathroom. And you know, not only do 241 00:11:53,080 --> 00:11:56,000 Speaker 1: prisoners have access to shared spaces like kitchens and living 242 00:11:56,080 --> 00:11:59,079 Speaker 1: rooms and even a gym that has this rock climbing wall. 243 00:11:59,320 --> 00:12:02,440 Speaker 1: There's also a recording studio for inmates to explore their 244 00:12:02,480 --> 00:12:05,440 Speaker 1: creative sides. That's pretty awesome. So this sounds way more 245 00:12:05,559 --> 00:12:08,760 Speaker 1: urban than the rustic cottages at Bastoy. And we know 246 00:12:08,840 --> 00:12:11,360 Speaker 1: the interiors are nice, but are the prisoners are allowed 247 00:12:11,360 --> 00:12:13,880 Speaker 1: to leave the facilities? Are they allowed to go outside? Yeah, definitely. 248 00:12:13,880 --> 00:12:16,240 Speaker 1: I mean there's there's a jogging trail outside and lots 249 00:12:16,240 --> 00:12:19,640 Speaker 1: of benches and stone chessboards scattered through the grounds. And 250 00:12:20,120 --> 00:12:22,720 Speaker 1: unlike those Quaker prisons you were talking about, the design 251 00:12:22,840 --> 00:12:25,840 Speaker 1: is is actually meant to encourage interactions between inmates and 252 00:12:25,920 --> 00:12:29,560 Speaker 1: staff members. So guards and prisoners often eat together or 253 00:12:29,600 --> 00:12:32,600 Speaker 1: play sports together outside. And you know, the whole prison 254 00:12:32,679 --> 00:12:35,839 Speaker 1: is surrounded by this twenty ft high security wall, and 255 00:12:35,880 --> 00:12:38,440 Speaker 1: the designers left plenty of trees inside the perimeter to 256 00:12:38,480 --> 00:12:41,080 Speaker 1: help to obscure it, and it kind of reduces that 257 00:12:41,120 --> 00:12:44,040 Speaker 1: institutional feel of the space. And in the words of 258 00:12:44,040 --> 00:12:47,240 Speaker 1: one of the architects, the landscaping quote lets the inmates 259 00:12:47,320 --> 00:12:50,160 Speaker 1: see all the seasons. So, I mean, I know everyone 260 00:12:50,200 --> 00:12:53,720 Speaker 1: appreciates these changing colors and seeing flowers bloom, but I 261 00:12:53,760 --> 00:12:55,840 Speaker 1: can also appreciate the point of view that these kinds 262 00:12:55,880 --> 00:12:59,640 Speaker 1: of induligences might be going overboard. I mean, these prisoners 263 00:12:59,800 --> 00:13:02,240 Speaker 1: did break the law, so how much will we be 264 00:13:02,280 --> 00:13:04,920 Speaker 1: going out of our way to make them comfortable? I mean, 265 00:13:04,960 --> 00:13:07,320 Speaker 1: you described a summer camp earlier, and this is the 266 00:13:07,320 --> 00:13:09,000 Speaker 1: one you're taking issue with that that, you know, it 267 00:13:09,120 --> 00:13:11,280 Speaker 1: sort of goes back to that question of what's the 268 00:13:11,280 --> 00:13:14,160 Speaker 1: main goal of imprisonment, you know, because I might argue 269 00:13:14,160 --> 00:13:16,319 Speaker 1: that it's the court's job to punish a criminal by 270 00:13:16,360 --> 00:13:19,600 Speaker 1: sending them to prison, and so being separated from family 271 00:13:19,720 --> 00:13:23,400 Speaker 1: and friends and having your liberty curtailed, that is the punishment. 272 00:13:23,679 --> 00:13:26,000 Speaker 1: And so from that angle, the punishment has already been 273 00:13:26,040 --> 00:13:28,720 Speaker 1: carried out. But from that point on, the prisoners should 274 00:13:28,720 --> 00:13:32,040 Speaker 1: be focused on remorse and rehab. Yeah, I mean that's 275 00:13:32,040 --> 00:13:34,360 Speaker 1: a strong argument, and and really I think the only 276 00:13:34,400 --> 00:13:36,960 Speaker 1: reason this more lenient approach gives some of us pause 277 00:13:37,360 --> 00:13:39,880 Speaker 1: is that it's such a foreign concept to us. Like 278 00:13:40,480 --> 00:13:43,400 Speaker 1: we're so used to thinking of prisoners as these faceless 279 00:13:43,480 --> 00:13:46,560 Speaker 1: wrongdoers and in need of punishment that that we almost 280 00:13:46,600 --> 00:13:49,120 Speaker 1: want the time they serve to be miserable. It's what 281 00:13:49,160 --> 00:13:51,720 Speaker 1: we think they deserve as criminals, right, and that's also 282 00:13:51,840 --> 00:13:54,640 Speaker 1: human nature, but it is what I find refreshing about 283 00:13:54,679 --> 00:13:57,720 Speaker 1: these prisons in Norway. And as strange as that might sound, 284 00:13:57,800 --> 00:14:00,480 Speaker 1: is that they're way more hopeful about prison and reform 285 00:14:00,559 --> 00:14:02,679 Speaker 1: than we are here in the States. And I think 286 00:14:02,720 --> 00:14:05,240 Speaker 1: that's because they haven't forgotten that these are human beings 287 00:14:05,240 --> 00:14:07,400 Speaker 1: we're talking about. I mean, these are citizens who can 288 00:14:07,440 --> 00:14:10,680 Speaker 1: still contribute to society if if given a real chance 289 00:14:10,720 --> 00:14:13,080 Speaker 1: to do so. So I read this article about hold 290 00:14:13,120 --> 00:14:16,240 Speaker 1: in prison written by a research professor in criminology name 291 00:14:16,360 --> 00:14:19,720 Speaker 1: is Her name is Ivan Jukes, and she really nails 292 00:14:19,760 --> 00:14:23,040 Speaker 1: the importance of the rehab based approach to prison. So 293 00:14:23,120 --> 00:14:26,320 Speaker 1: she writes, this is not about making prisons softer or 294 00:14:26,400 --> 00:14:30,320 Speaker 1: less of a deterrent to criminals. Normalizing prisons is essential 295 00:14:30,720 --> 00:14:32,920 Speaker 1: if they are to be more than human warehouses that 296 00:14:33,000 --> 00:14:36,359 Speaker 1: return offenders to society with their lives even more fractured 297 00:14:36,600 --> 00:14:39,080 Speaker 1: and their life chances even more reduced than when they 298 00:14:39,120 --> 00:14:42,920 Speaker 1: were admitted. The short term and long term cost of imprisonment, 299 00:14:43,280 --> 00:14:47,880 Speaker 1: human and economic are staggering and unsustainable. Well, I can 300 00:14:47,880 --> 00:14:50,200 Speaker 1: definitely get behind that. In fact, why don't we dig 301 00:14:50,240 --> 00:14:53,240 Speaker 1: into some of the specifics of those costs, Like, I know, 302 00:14:53,280 --> 00:14:55,080 Speaker 1: we spend a crazy amount of money each year on 303 00:14:55,080 --> 00:14:57,960 Speaker 1: prison construction and upkeep, not to mention what it takes 304 00:14:57,960 --> 00:15:00,920 Speaker 1: to actually house and feed millions of in it's I'm 305 00:15:00,920 --> 00:15:02,760 Speaker 1: just gonna go ahead and rip off the band aid here. 306 00:15:03,160 --> 00:15:07,680 Speaker 1: Incarceration costs US taxpayers over seventy billion dollars each year, 307 00:15:08,000 --> 00:15:10,320 Speaker 1: and that breaks down to more than thirty thousand dollars 308 00:15:10,320 --> 00:15:14,120 Speaker 1: spent per prisoner. That is huge. Yeah, that's that's rough. Yeah, 309 00:15:14,120 --> 00:15:16,280 Speaker 1: And of course that's just the monetary cost of prison. 310 00:15:16,360 --> 00:15:18,640 Speaker 1: I mean, we already touched on the emotional pain that 311 00:15:18,760 --> 00:15:20,840 Speaker 1: jail time can cause, and I don't want to dwell 312 00:15:20,880 --> 00:15:23,080 Speaker 1: too much on those issues, important as they are, but 313 00:15:23,240 --> 00:15:25,640 Speaker 1: in this discussion of costs, I do think we should 314 00:15:25,680 --> 00:15:28,640 Speaker 1: talk a little bit about the jails and prisons themselves, definitely. 315 00:15:28,680 --> 00:15:30,880 Speaker 1: So I was looking at some of these figures as well, 316 00:15:31,000 --> 00:15:34,040 Speaker 1: and there are over a hundred federal prisons and close 317 00:15:34,160 --> 00:15:36,400 Speaker 1: to I think two thousand state ones in the US, 318 00:15:36,480 --> 00:15:39,600 Speaker 1: and many of these are massive, I mean, these sprawling 319 00:15:39,680 --> 00:15:43,000 Speaker 1: complexes that must cost a ton to build and then 320 00:15:43,000 --> 00:15:45,360 Speaker 1: to maintain of course. Yeah, And and depending on the 321 00:15:45,440 --> 00:15:47,600 Speaker 1: number of people it's meant to house, a single prison 322 00:15:47,640 --> 00:15:50,720 Speaker 1: can easily cost well over a hundred million dollars. And 323 00:15:50,880 --> 00:15:53,560 Speaker 1: like you said, we have so many correctional facilities, like 324 00:15:53,640 --> 00:15:55,920 Speaker 1: in fact, there are more than five thousand jails and 325 00:15:56,400 --> 00:16:00,160 Speaker 1: um county facilities like in the country right now, and 326 00:16:00,200 --> 00:16:02,360 Speaker 1: if you add those up, that's more than the total 327 00:16:02,480 --> 00:16:05,000 Speaker 1: number of colleges in the whole US well. And not 328 00:16:05,040 --> 00:16:07,520 Speaker 1: only that, but they're overcrowded. I mean, I remember this 329 00:16:07,560 --> 00:16:09,200 Speaker 1: story from just a couple of years ago about a 330 00:16:09,200 --> 00:16:12,920 Speaker 1: prison in California that gave early releases to ten thousand inmates, 331 00:16:13,160 --> 00:16:16,520 Speaker 1: and this was just ease. Overcrowding, Yeah, I mean, overcrowding 332 00:16:16,560 --> 00:16:19,320 Speaker 1: is obviously the serious problem, and it's it's not just 333 00:16:19,360 --> 00:16:21,600 Speaker 1: the logistical nightmare of trying to house people in a 334 00:16:21,600 --> 00:16:23,880 Speaker 1: place where there's no room for them. I mean there's 335 00:16:23,880 --> 00:16:27,160 Speaker 1: also the emotional and psychological toll of living in those conditions. 336 00:16:27,800 --> 00:16:30,520 Speaker 1: It's no secret that our environment can have this direct 337 00:16:30,600 --> 00:16:33,800 Speaker 1: impact on our behavior. I remember reading the study from 338 00:16:33,840 --> 00:16:36,520 Speaker 1: forever ago about like the proportion of fist fights that 339 00:16:36,560 --> 00:16:38,920 Speaker 1: break out when people bump into each other, and that 340 00:16:38,960 --> 00:16:41,720 Speaker 1: people from crowded cities were more accustomed to getting bumped 341 00:16:41,760 --> 00:16:44,760 Speaker 1: into But still, like, what kind of behavior can you 342 00:16:44,760 --> 00:16:48,040 Speaker 1: expect from people crammed into like a bleak, depressing building 343 00:16:48,080 --> 00:16:51,880 Speaker 1: and made to live together under surveillance. I mean, think 344 00:16:51,880 --> 00:16:54,480 Speaker 1: about that story you told at the top, Like, narrow 345 00:16:54,480 --> 00:16:57,120 Speaker 1: windows are great for not letting heat escape in the winter, 346 00:16:57,240 --> 00:16:59,400 Speaker 1: but what does a sliver of a view do for 347 00:16:59,440 --> 00:17:02,120 Speaker 1: your mental Yeah, that's true, and you know, it's easy 348 00:17:02,120 --> 00:17:04,520 Speaker 1: to imagine how the added tention of living on top 349 00:17:04,560 --> 00:17:07,000 Speaker 1: of one another, plus the disgusting food. I mean that 350 00:17:07,280 --> 00:17:10,040 Speaker 1: all might lead to outburst. And you know, of course, 351 00:17:10,080 --> 00:17:13,480 Speaker 1: bad behavior leads to more time being added to prison sentences, 352 00:17:13,920 --> 00:17:16,440 Speaker 1: which keeps people locked up for longer and makes things 353 00:17:16,480 --> 00:17:20,320 Speaker 1: harder for their families, and obviously it costs taxpayers more money. 354 00:17:20,640 --> 00:17:24,919 Speaker 1: It's this layered, complicated problem and it's so wide reaching. Yeah, so, 355 00:17:25,000 --> 00:17:26,560 Speaker 1: not only do we need to build a better prison 356 00:17:26,560 --> 00:17:29,879 Speaker 1: in terms of policy, we also need to physically construct 357 00:17:29,960 --> 00:17:32,960 Speaker 1: better prisons. Right. Well, we definitely shouldn't add to the 358 00:17:32,960 --> 00:17:35,480 Speaker 1: total number of prisons, since that's already way too high 359 00:17:35,520 --> 00:17:38,120 Speaker 1: as it is, but one option would be to replace 360 00:17:38,160 --> 00:17:40,520 Speaker 1: the current ones with newer models that break from the 361 00:17:40,520 --> 00:17:44,440 Speaker 1: traditional concrete box with washtower approaches. I mean, I don't 362 00:17:44,440 --> 00:17:47,320 Speaker 1: know who decided prison buildings need to reflect the duriness 363 00:17:47,359 --> 00:17:50,080 Speaker 1: of actually being in prison, but I'm not sure, it's 364 00:17:50,119 --> 00:17:52,920 Speaker 1: doing anyone any favors. Well, there's a couple of places 365 00:17:52,920 --> 00:17:55,800 Speaker 1: out there, like these high schools and college campuses that 366 00:17:55,840 --> 00:17:58,400 Speaker 1: I've noticed over the years that look a lot like prisons. 367 00:17:58,400 --> 00:18:00,280 Speaker 1: And I don't know if you've ever noticed this before, 368 00:18:00,280 --> 00:18:03,359 Speaker 1: but there's this uncanny resemblance between them. Sometimes. Have you 369 00:18:03,440 --> 00:18:05,320 Speaker 1: noticed this? Yeah, I mean you think about the older 370 00:18:05,359 --> 00:18:08,040 Speaker 1: schools that had those like boxy, boring designs and like 371 00:18:08,200 --> 00:18:12,239 Speaker 1: concrete and like drewery long hallways. I can see that, right. 372 00:18:12,280 --> 00:18:14,520 Speaker 1: So I actually decided to look into this, and it 373 00:18:14,560 --> 00:18:18,439 Speaker 1: seems that there's actually a connection between the two. Really. Yes, 374 00:18:18,520 --> 00:18:21,600 Speaker 1: So the architect responsible for the San Quentin State Prison 375 00:18:21,760 --> 00:18:25,040 Speaker 1: also designed a couple of California high schools, and that 376 00:18:25,119 --> 00:18:27,760 Speaker 1: kind of overlap isn't uncommon, I mean, especially for high 377 00:18:27,800 --> 00:18:30,679 Speaker 1: schools and colleges that were built in the sixties and seventies. 378 00:18:30,920 --> 00:18:32,560 Speaker 1: So I want to dig into this a little deeper. 379 00:18:32,640 --> 00:18:34,720 Speaker 1: So tell me why that is. Well, there was this 380 00:18:34,840 --> 00:18:38,479 Speaker 1: architectural style called brutalism, and this was really popular at 381 00:18:38,520 --> 00:18:42,000 Speaker 1: the time, and all kinds of public buildings and institutional 382 00:18:42,040 --> 00:18:45,800 Speaker 1: structures were built using brutalist designs. They were full of 383 00:18:45,840 --> 00:18:49,280 Speaker 1: these sharp angles and heavy solid shapes that were cast 384 00:18:49,320 --> 00:18:53,160 Speaker 1: in this reinforced concrete, and universities were looking to show 385 00:18:53,200 --> 00:18:56,240 Speaker 1: how modern they were, so they started using these blocky, 386 00:18:56,560 --> 00:19:00,919 Speaker 1: bunker like buildings as auditoriums or libraries or even dorms. 387 00:19:00,960 --> 00:19:03,600 Speaker 1: So then what happened Like everyone suddenly decided that these 388 00:19:03,640 --> 00:19:06,720 Speaker 1: places look like prisons. Yeah, so pretty much. I mean, 389 00:19:06,760 --> 00:19:09,639 Speaker 1: public opinion turned on them pretty quickly, and so tons 390 00:19:09,640 --> 00:19:13,000 Speaker 1: of students and faculty and other members of school communities 391 00:19:13,000 --> 00:19:15,600 Speaker 1: began to speak out about how ugly these new buildings were. 392 00:19:15,640 --> 00:19:18,120 Speaker 1: And it even sparked a bunch of urban legends about 393 00:19:18,160 --> 00:19:22,439 Speaker 1: colleges being built purposely to disorient and intimidate students, you know, 394 00:19:22,680 --> 00:19:26,280 Speaker 1: in order to prevent riots and political demonstrations. But you know, 395 00:19:26,320 --> 00:19:29,480 Speaker 1: at any rate, the brutal is fad died down pretty quickly, 396 00:19:29,640 --> 00:19:33,080 Speaker 1: at least for the school designs. But prison buildings, well, 397 00:19:33,160 --> 00:19:36,280 Speaker 1: we kept building these in the same style for decades after. 398 00:19:36,800 --> 00:19:40,160 Speaker 1: There's something about how impersonal but also functional it look 399 00:19:40,240 --> 00:19:43,680 Speaker 1: that made it perfect for jail houses. Well, brutalism is 400 00:19:43,680 --> 00:19:46,000 Speaker 1: definitely the right name for it. But you know, it's 401 00:19:46,040 --> 00:19:49,679 Speaker 1: funny you mentioned prison design influencing college architecture, because I 402 00:19:49,680 --> 00:19:52,480 Speaker 1: actually found a case of the exact opposite. There's this 403 00:19:52,600 --> 00:19:55,280 Speaker 1: new women's prison in San Diego that's been taking design 404 00:19:55,320 --> 00:19:59,480 Speaker 1: cues from modern college campuses. It's called the Lost Colina's 405 00:19:59,560 --> 00:20:03,000 Speaker 1: Detention and in re Entry Facility, and it's a partnership 406 00:20:03,000 --> 00:20:05,920 Speaker 1: between two architecture firms, cam D and h m C. 407 00:20:06,400 --> 00:20:08,600 Speaker 1: They work together to design this new kind of prison 408 00:20:08,680 --> 00:20:10,359 Speaker 1: that that aims to put a dent in some of 409 00:20:10,400 --> 00:20:13,040 Speaker 1: the biggest problems found in correctional facilities. And you think 410 00:20:13,040 --> 00:20:16,960 Speaker 1: about like assault, vandalism, and also recidivism. I mean that 411 00:20:17,080 --> 00:20:19,880 Speaker 1: sounds awesome, but but how would the architecture actually help 412 00:20:19,920 --> 00:20:22,960 Speaker 1: with this. Well, the designers also took inspiration from health 413 00:20:22,960 --> 00:20:25,680 Speaker 1: care facilities so they could make choices that would benefit 414 00:20:25,720 --> 00:20:28,440 Speaker 1: the physical and the mental well being of the inmates. 415 00:20:28,480 --> 00:20:32,760 Speaker 1: So every decision from like the color, the materials, the 416 00:20:32,800 --> 00:20:35,919 Speaker 1: texture of the buildings and their furnishings, to even the 417 00:20:35,960 --> 00:20:40,600 Speaker 1: more intangible elements like uh light, air quality, acoustics, all 418 00:20:40,600 --> 00:20:44,000 Speaker 1: of that was under careful consideration and based on research studies, 419 00:20:44,800 --> 00:20:47,520 Speaker 1: and everything's made to help the inmates mood and sense 420 00:20:47,560 --> 00:20:51,679 Speaker 1: of community. There's stuff like Florida ceiling windows, shorter campus 421 00:20:51,680 --> 00:20:55,520 Speaker 1: styled buildings and wide open spaces that allow for easy 422 00:20:55,560 --> 00:20:59,000 Speaker 1: access to nature. I mean that definitely sounds like an upgrade. 423 00:20:59,000 --> 00:21:01,840 Speaker 1: And you know, the that we're talking so positively about 424 00:21:01,840 --> 00:21:05,159 Speaker 1: a correctional facility within the United States, that's definitely a 425 00:21:05,240 --> 00:21:07,800 Speaker 1: nice change of pace. So, well, what do you say 426 00:21:07,840 --> 00:21:10,120 Speaker 1: we see what other signs of progress we can find 427 00:21:10,119 --> 00:21:12,280 Speaker 1: in the US prisons? And for that, but why don't 428 00:21:12,280 --> 00:21:23,800 Speaker 1: we break for a quiz? First? Our guest today as 429 00:21:23,840 --> 00:21:26,920 Speaker 1: a professor of literature and creative writing at Hamilton's College, 430 00:21:27,200 --> 00:21:31,320 Speaker 1: he's also led the Attica Writer's Workshop inside Attica Correctional Facility, 431 00:21:31,600 --> 00:21:33,439 Speaker 1: and it's the director of the n e H funded 432 00:21:33,480 --> 00:21:38,160 Speaker 1: American Prison Writing Archive. Welcome to part time genius Dourin Larson, Oh, 433 00:21:38,160 --> 00:21:40,919 Speaker 1: Thanks to you. Thanks for having on so during UH 434 00:21:41,000 --> 00:21:43,800 Speaker 1: In the Atlantic piece, I read that you'd visited UH 435 00:21:43,960 --> 00:21:47,320 Speaker 1: for high security prisons in Denmark and Norway and Sweden 436 00:21:47,320 --> 00:21:49,359 Speaker 1: and Finland, and and one of the things I was 437 00:21:49,400 --> 00:21:52,320 Speaker 1: struck by was how you wrote about the profound difference 438 00:21:52,359 --> 00:21:55,400 Speaker 1: between how prisoners interact with the officers. Could you tell 439 00:21:55,480 --> 00:21:57,800 Speaker 1: us a little bit about that. The basis for that 440 00:21:58,119 --> 00:22:01,560 Speaker 1: is that the Scandinavian for and we really can think 441 00:22:01,680 --> 00:22:06,120 Speaker 1: of Scandinavian prisons really is one whole, because they look 442 00:22:06,200 --> 00:22:09,000 Speaker 1: to each other and see themselves. Really is sort of 443 00:22:09,200 --> 00:22:14,000 Speaker 1: one philosophy of of incarceration. The base philosophy that they 444 00:22:14,000 --> 00:22:17,399 Speaker 1: all work from is called normalization, and that is the 445 00:22:17,440 --> 00:22:21,080 Speaker 1: experience inside prisons should be as much like life outside 446 00:22:21,080 --> 00:22:24,199 Speaker 1: as it possibly can be, since the intent is to 447 00:22:24,240 --> 00:22:28,040 Speaker 1: prepare people to go back out and become productive, taxpaying 448 00:22:28,240 --> 00:22:32,879 Speaker 1: citizens once they leave. So it's an entirely forward looking 449 00:22:32,880 --> 00:22:36,160 Speaker 1: system rather than hours which is very much backward looking. 450 00:22:36,760 --> 00:22:39,119 Speaker 1: You know, we're going to keep punishing you and holding 451 00:22:39,119 --> 00:22:42,360 Speaker 1: you here until you know, there's some sort of arbitrary 452 00:22:42,400 --> 00:22:45,720 Speaker 1: decision about whether or not you suffered death. Uh. There, 453 00:22:45,880 --> 00:22:49,159 Speaker 1: it's all about preparation for leaving, and the officers are 454 00:22:49,240 --> 00:22:54,040 Speaker 1: very much participants in that effort. So they are there 455 00:22:54,200 --> 00:22:59,240 Speaker 1: to work with incarcerated people to prepare them to go 456 00:22:59,280 --> 00:23:01,040 Speaker 1: back out in the world old where you know, they're 457 00:23:01,080 --> 00:23:05,600 Speaker 1: returning themselves every day. Um. And that changes quite drastically 458 00:23:06,920 --> 00:23:10,640 Speaker 1: everything uh, surrounding the way they actually relate to each other. 459 00:23:11,359 --> 00:23:16,199 Speaker 1: And another part of that is that the ratio of 460 00:23:16,200 --> 00:23:22,000 Speaker 1: officers and staff to incarcerated people is much much higher 461 00:23:22,480 --> 00:23:24,520 Speaker 1: than it is in the US. We have about a 462 00:23:24,560 --> 00:23:27,359 Speaker 1: one to ten sometimes on certain shifts, one to twenty ratio. 463 00:23:28,000 --> 00:23:31,040 Speaker 1: So American officers are constantly under a sort of state 464 00:23:31,119 --> 00:23:35,080 Speaker 1: of siege because they're so badly outnumbered. Uh. There, it's 465 00:23:35,119 --> 00:23:37,639 Speaker 1: not uncommon for a prison to have a prisoner to 466 00:23:37,680 --> 00:23:41,399 Speaker 1: staff ratio of one to one. So there's not that 467 00:23:41,560 --> 00:23:44,800 Speaker 1: sense of, you know, uh, sort of being like an 468 00:23:44,800 --> 00:23:47,480 Speaker 1: occupying army, which is in some sense the way officers 469 00:23:48,080 --> 00:23:50,399 Speaker 1: um operate in the US, and some sense the way 470 00:23:50,440 --> 00:23:53,280 Speaker 1: they have to operate since we want both a mass 471 00:23:53,280 --> 00:23:55,560 Speaker 1: scale system and they have it on a cheap Yeah. 472 00:23:55,640 --> 00:23:58,240 Speaker 1: That that's incredible. That ratio is incredible. But I think 473 00:23:58,280 --> 00:24:00,520 Speaker 1: you said it wasn't just for the prisoners unfit, right, 474 00:24:00,560 --> 00:24:03,639 Speaker 1: It's also partially for the life of the prison guards. Yeah, 475 00:24:03,680 --> 00:24:06,359 Speaker 1: one of the motivations for making these kinds of changes, 476 00:24:06,400 --> 00:24:10,040 Speaker 1: but not simply have better results on the back end 477 00:24:10,160 --> 00:24:14,440 Speaker 1: of a prison term. Um. But the in those countries 478 00:24:14,520 --> 00:24:16,919 Speaker 1: they had a problem that we still have, which is 479 00:24:16,960 --> 00:24:20,720 Speaker 1: the prison officers here have a life expectancy about sixteen 480 00:24:20,800 --> 00:24:25,520 Speaker 1: years shorter than the general population. Uh. And the reason 481 00:24:25,640 --> 00:24:29,800 Speaker 1: is not from being stabbed or killed by people inside. UM, 482 00:24:29,840 --> 00:24:37,280 Speaker 1: it's hypertension, epidemic, levels of suicide, alcoholism, UM everything you 483 00:24:37,359 --> 00:24:41,760 Speaker 1: generally associate with a scene of continued trauma because they're 484 00:24:41,840 --> 00:24:45,200 Speaker 1: very stressful jobs. And you know, what we've learned from 485 00:24:45,280 --> 00:24:49,560 Speaker 1: other scenes of a sort of organized oppression is the 486 00:24:49,600 --> 00:24:53,840 Speaker 1: oppressors are as damaged or often as it damaged as 487 00:24:53,840 --> 00:24:57,199 Speaker 1: the people who are oppressed, because officers here really do 488 00:24:57,280 --> 00:24:59,439 Speaker 1: nothing but negative things all day. They help people what 489 00:24:59,480 --> 00:25:04,280 Speaker 1: not to do, they punish, they regulate, and there's nothing 490 00:25:04,320 --> 00:25:06,159 Speaker 1: that they can go home with at the end of 491 00:25:06,200 --> 00:25:09,240 Speaker 1: the day and saying I did something really positive, right, 492 00:25:09,280 --> 00:25:12,280 Speaker 1: I helped somebody out, and that has real psychological effects. 493 00:25:12,640 --> 00:25:14,680 Speaker 1: I can't I can't imagine now. You you also write 494 00:25:14,720 --> 00:25:18,240 Speaker 1: about how adjustments are made in the Scandinavian prison system 495 00:25:18,280 --> 00:25:20,440 Speaker 1: and it, you know, it sounds like the criminal justice 496 00:25:20,480 --> 00:25:24,440 Speaker 1: process really isn't part of the political process so much 497 00:25:24,480 --> 00:25:27,000 Speaker 1: as it is, you know, being being left to professionals. 498 00:25:27,000 --> 00:25:30,680 Speaker 1: Is that accurate? Yeah, in all those countries they've had 499 00:25:30,680 --> 00:25:35,880 Speaker 1: a long history of one. They've seen with the experience 500 00:25:35,880 --> 00:25:39,560 Speaker 1: of the world Second World War, what happens when popular 501 00:25:39,680 --> 00:25:44,879 Speaker 1: sentiment is what drives public policy right. Uh, that you 502 00:25:44,920 --> 00:25:48,240 Speaker 1: can you can basically whip people up into believing in 503 00:25:48,640 --> 00:25:52,320 Speaker 1: UM taking actions that are destructive for everyone. And so 504 00:25:52,440 --> 00:25:55,880 Speaker 1: with that lesson as close by as it was UM 505 00:25:56,000 --> 00:25:58,800 Speaker 1: after the war, Uh, they put an enormous amount of 506 00:25:58,840 --> 00:26:03,560 Speaker 1: faith in experts, people who are trained, uh to basically 507 00:26:03,640 --> 00:26:07,800 Speaker 1: do their jobs well on the basis of evidence and 508 00:26:08,080 --> 00:26:11,200 Speaker 1: the most recent science, and to put those actions in place. 509 00:26:12,000 --> 00:26:16,600 Speaker 1: And that depoliticization is obviously being challenged now because there 510 00:26:16,640 --> 00:26:20,320 Speaker 1: are you know, right wing nationalist parties coming in prominence 511 00:26:20,320 --> 00:26:23,840 Speaker 1: even in those countries. UM, But the basics, you know, 512 00:26:24,040 --> 00:26:26,720 Speaker 1: function inside prisons is really not changed. I was there 513 00:26:26,840 --> 00:26:30,800 Speaker 1: just this last summer touring Sweden with students. The recent 514 00:26:30,880 --> 00:26:33,880 Speaker 1: changes really just haven't penetrated there. Another thing from your 515 00:26:33,920 --> 00:26:35,760 Speaker 1: piece that I thought was fascinating was you talked a 516 00:26:35,760 --> 00:26:38,440 Speaker 1: little bit about Nile's Christie and his conclusion that these 517 00:26:38,760 --> 00:26:43,400 Speaker 1: homogeneous nations tend to institutionalize mercy. Can you speak about 518 00:26:43,440 --> 00:26:45,479 Speaker 1: that with the U S and the diverse population we 519 00:26:45,520 --> 00:26:48,880 Speaker 1: have in in our present system. Yeah, you know, the 520 00:26:48,920 --> 00:26:53,400 Speaker 1: distance between the people who are voting for any particular 521 00:26:53,400 --> 00:26:56,320 Speaker 1: policy or also sort of philosophy or operate from the 522 00:26:56,320 --> 00:26:59,640 Speaker 1: philosophy behind that that voting and the people that that 523 00:27:00,160 --> 00:27:03,000 Speaker 1: those decisions are gonna actually land upon the greater that 524 00:27:03,080 --> 00:27:06,040 Speaker 1: distance is the harsher the punishments tend to be. And 525 00:27:06,160 --> 00:27:08,240 Speaker 1: what Christie did is this actually came out of his 526 00:27:08,320 --> 00:27:12,120 Speaker 1: work in the Second World War and looking at who 527 00:27:12,200 --> 00:27:16,840 Speaker 1: survived in camps, in the death camps, and found that 528 00:27:17,280 --> 00:27:19,879 Speaker 1: it was particularly people who at some point or another 529 00:27:20,280 --> 00:27:23,359 Speaker 1: and made a human connection with the guards literally just 530 00:27:23,440 --> 00:27:25,680 Speaker 1: sort of lit a cigarette, you know, or they found 531 00:27:25,720 --> 00:27:30,160 Speaker 1: out they had a common musical interest anything that would 532 00:27:30,200 --> 00:27:34,480 Speaker 1: humanize the held from the people for the from the 533 00:27:34,520 --> 00:27:37,639 Speaker 1: human for the holders. Um. And then from that work 534 00:27:37,840 --> 00:27:42,240 Speaker 1: is very very early work, he looked globally and what 535 00:27:42,280 --> 00:27:45,399 Speaker 1: these patterns are like, and the pattern helped that the 536 00:27:45,440 --> 00:27:49,000 Speaker 1: extent to which the person making a decision could find 537 00:27:49,160 --> 00:27:52,400 Speaker 1: humanity and a sense of common humanity and the person 538 00:27:52,440 --> 00:27:55,800 Speaker 1: the decision was going to be made about resulted in 539 00:27:56,480 --> 00:28:00,280 Speaker 1: milder remedies for any particular problem. Right, the they want 540 00:28:00,320 --> 00:28:02,320 Speaker 1: to legislate just like in the family, you know, you 541 00:28:02,320 --> 00:28:05,439 Speaker 1: have different consequences for your child stealing something than you 542 00:28:05,520 --> 00:28:10,119 Speaker 1: have for your thinking about home bringings. Right, Um, you know, 543 00:28:10,160 --> 00:28:14,960 Speaker 1: one's obviously more serious, but it's not principle different. It's 544 00:28:14,960 --> 00:28:18,320 Speaker 1: a matter of you know that person, you know all 545 00:28:18,440 --> 00:28:20,919 Speaker 1: the circumstances under which they did that because they're jealous 546 00:28:20,920 --> 00:28:25,160 Speaker 1: of their sister or whatever the situation might have been, right, right, uh. 547 00:28:25,160 --> 00:28:28,320 Speaker 1: And Christie died just a year or two ago. But 548 00:28:28,480 --> 00:28:30,880 Speaker 1: his work he was actually called in very specifically by 549 00:28:30,920 --> 00:28:35,080 Speaker 1: Finland when they realize that their incarceration rates in the fifties, 550 00:28:35,400 --> 00:28:38,280 Speaker 1: we're out of line with other Scandinavian countries, and he 551 00:28:38,440 --> 00:28:41,560 Speaker 1: and others were called in. Academics were called in. They say, 552 00:28:41,600 --> 00:28:44,520 Speaker 1: what can we do to change this? That's incredible? Wow, 553 00:28:44,560 --> 00:28:47,440 Speaker 1: that's that's really interesting. Well, is is there anything the 554 00:28:47,480 --> 00:28:50,560 Speaker 1: world can learn from the US prison system? Is you know, 555 00:28:50,600 --> 00:28:53,560 Speaker 1: anything that we're we're not seeing about it. It's very 556 00:28:53,560 --> 00:28:55,880 Speaker 1: difficult to make to sort of strike any kind of 557 00:28:55,880 --> 00:28:59,000 Speaker 1: continuum really, and I'm working on an essay now about 558 00:28:59,120 --> 00:29:02,120 Speaker 1: precisely this is that we can look at the practices 559 00:29:02,160 --> 00:29:05,040 Speaker 1: in Scandinavia and we can ask ourselves, well, why can't 560 00:29:05,080 --> 00:29:07,160 Speaker 1: we do that what they're doing there. But there are 561 00:29:07,240 --> 00:29:11,760 Speaker 1: very very concrete reasons why translation is extremely difficult. One 562 00:29:11,840 --> 00:29:17,000 Speaker 1: is simple scale um that the entire prison calpulation of 563 00:29:17,040 --> 00:29:20,680 Speaker 1: Sweden would fit inside San Quentin. You know, on any 564 00:29:20,760 --> 00:29:25,960 Speaker 1: particular day, there are more men than women walking the 565 00:29:26,040 --> 00:29:31,360 Speaker 1: yards of any single prison or jail in America. That 566 00:29:31,560 --> 00:29:35,400 Speaker 1: number is great as in the entire prison population of Iceland, 567 00:29:35,760 --> 00:29:41,360 Speaker 1: which people. So these countries, in Scandinavian countries are are 568 00:29:41,440 --> 00:29:45,080 Speaker 1: quite wealthy, particularly per capita, because we have much more 569 00:29:45,080 --> 00:29:50,480 Speaker 1: even distribution of wealth and an extremely low incarceration rates, 570 00:29:50,520 --> 00:29:56,360 Speaker 1: So they can spend three times per incarcerated person over 571 00:29:56,440 --> 00:30:00,320 Speaker 1: what we spent, so ours an expense assist them. It's 572 00:30:00,360 --> 00:30:02,440 Speaker 1: expensive because of a size, not because of how much 573 00:30:02,440 --> 00:30:06,880 Speaker 1: we spend on individuals. So when you have those scale differences, 574 00:30:06,920 --> 00:30:09,400 Speaker 1: it's really hard to make those comparisons. It would be 575 00:30:09,400 --> 00:30:12,960 Speaker 1: fairer to say, um, you know what Sweden doing, and 576 00:30:13,000 --> 00:30:16,680 Speaker 1: what's Oregon doing, or what Sweden doing, and you know 577 00:30:16,720 --> 00:30:20,320 Speaker 1: what's Michigan doing. And there are progressive measures that will 578 00:30:20,360 --> 00:30:23,480 Speaker 1: be taken in individual states, but overall, of course we're 579 00:30:23,520 --> 00:30:28,480 Speaker 1: sort of just grossly over incarcerated here. I think really 580 00:30:29,160 --> 00:30:34,719 Speaker 1: what uh Europeans take from us is simply the negative lesson, right, 581 00:30:34,760 --> 00:30:36,240 Speaker 1: we don't want to do this because we know where 582 00:30:36,240 --> 00:30:39,360 Speaker 1: that goes. They've already done it in the US, right, 583 00:30:40,040 --> 00:30:42,400 Speaker 1: So I know you've been teaching and working with prisoners 584 00:30:42,400 --> 00:30:45,280 Speaker 1: since I think around two thousand six, Um, But what 585 00:30:45,400 --> 00:30:48,440 Speaker 1: give people hope in these high security settings and and 586 00:30:48,480 --> 00:30:50,600 Speaker 1: what do they get out of the writing? Out of 587 00:30:50,600 --> 00:30:53,719 Speaker 1: the writing? It's not simply the writing and isolated, you know, 588 00:30:53,880 --> 00:30:55,840 Speaker 1: sitting downs and going you know, it does all the 589 00:30:55,840 --> 00:30:58,440 Speaker 1: good that writing does for anyone, you know, a place 590 00:30:58,480 --> 00:31:04,480 Speaker 1: to reflects, as to essentially sort of sort out one's thoughts. Um. 591 00:31:04,520 --> 00:31:08,840 Speaker 1: But what I found in the setting at Attica, which 592 00:31:08,840 --> 00:31:14,080 Speaker 1: is quite a brutal prison, is that equally important was 593 00:31:14,160 --> 00:31:17,560 Speaker 1: that two or three hours in a room with other 594 00:31:17,640 --> 00:31:22,280 Speaker 1: men whose only priority was working on their writing and 595 00:31:22,320 --> 00:31:26,760 Speaker 1: discussing literature, not debts, not vendetta. Is not all the 596 00:31:26,760 --> 00:31:30,000 Speaker 1: other stuff politics that's going on inside the prison as 597 00:31:30,040 --> 00:31:33,880 Speaker 1: well as watching out, you know for a famously brutal staff, 598 00:31:34,160 --> 00:31:37,280 Speaker 1: but a moment in which they are there because of 599 00:31:37,320 --> 00:31:40,240 Speaker 1: the minds they bring in, not because of the bodies 600 00:31:40,280 --> 00:31:43,840 Speaker 1: and the objects they bring in, and that just having 601 00:31:43,840 --> 00:31:48,360 Speaker 1: that community of trust is enormously important. And then you know, 602 00:31:48,760 --> 00:31:50,560 Speaker 1: I had to sort of teach them to critique each 603 00:31:50,600 --> 00:31:54,480 Speaker 1: other because they were, so, you know, sort of universally 604 00:31:54,600 --> 00:31:58,680 Speaker 1: supportive of each other's work simply for having produced it, 605 00:31:59,400 --> 00:32:01,959 Speaker 1: which is extra ordinary in a place like that. Right, 606 00:32:02,600 --> 00:32:05,640 Speaker 1: But over time, you know, they learned that, you know, 607 00:32:06,160 --> 00:32:07,920 Speaker 1: as great as it is as someone's produced a piece 608 00:32:07,960 --> 00:32:10,760 Speaker 1: of work, you can also help them along by pointing 609 00:32:10,800 --> 00:32:14,480 Speaker 1: out what's problematic in it, all right, yea. And those 610 00:32:14,520 --> 00:32:17,600 Speaker 1: that have published, and they published extremely well, uh, The 611 00:32:17,600 --> 00:32:23,880 Speaker 1: New York Times, Atlantic, Um, Harper's Esquire, a lot of 612 00:32:23,880 --> 00:32:27,080 Speaker 1: top literary journals. Um. You know those moments when you 613 00:32:27,120 --> 00:32:31,200 Speaker 1: see your name in print. Really, and I've had men 614 00:32:31,560 --> 00:32:34,920 Speaker 1: tell me this explicitly. I'm no longer just my crime. 615 00:32:36,040 --> 00:32:39,560 Speaker 1: I'm now a writer. That's how people know me. And 616 00:32:39,640 --> 00:32:41,960 Speaker 1: maybe more people will know me as that than the 617 00:32:41,960 --> 00:32:44,520 Speaker 1: people who see me as nothing more as literally sort 618 00:32:44,560 --> 00:32:48,000 Speaker 1: of disappearing behind my crime. So it can be a 619 00:32:48,040 --> 00:32:52,240 Speaker 1: real transformation of self conception and self image, which is very, 620 00:32:52,360 --> 00:32:55,800 Speaker 1: very constructive for them. So for our listeners that are 621 00:32:56,200 --> 00:32:59,160 Speaker 1: interested in reading more and learning more, they should definitely 622 00:32:59,280 --> 00:33:02,160 Speaker 1: check out a book that Dorin edited called Fourth City, 623 00:33:02,280 --> 00:33:05,560 Speaker 1: Essays from the Prison in America. But Dorian, thank you 624 00:33:05,600 --> 00:33:08,280 Speaker 1: so much for joining us today. Of course, of course, 625 00:33:08,520 --> 00:33:24,280 Speaker 1: thank you. Okay, So Mango, you were really lifting my 626 00:33:24,320 --> 00:33:27,920 Speaker 1: spirits talking about the Los Collinas Detention and re Entry Facility, 627 00:33:28,000 --> 00:33:30,840 Speaker 1: And I like it because it seems to adopt the 628 00:33:30,920 --> 00:33:33,760 Speaker 1: same humane approach to incarceration that we saw in those 629 00:33:33,800 --> 00:33:36,920 Speaker 1: Norwegian jails, and it's really just cool to see that 630 00:33:36,960 --> 00:33:40,600 Speaker 1: way of thinking taking root in the American prison system. Yeah, definitely. 631 00:33:40,600 --> 00:33:44,480 Speaker 1: Instead of the typically like stark and alienating environments we 632 00:33:44,520 --> 00:33:47,400 Speaker 1: associate with prisons, these are more like tight knit communities, 633 00:33:47,840 --> 00:33:50,600 Speaker 1: almost like a college campus or a small village, and 634 00:33:50,720 --> 00:33:54,560 Speaker 1: that ends up feeling way healthier than just a people warehouse. Well. 635 00:33:54,560 --> 00:33:57,040 Speaker 1: Building a sense of community and purpose is actually a 636 00:33:57,040 --> 00:33:59,680 Speaker 1: common thread that I noticed in lots of prison programs 637 00:33:59,680 --> 00:34:02,720 Speaker 1: that aim for rehab and reintegration. And one of my 638 00:34:02,760 --> 00:34:06,040 Speaker 1: favorites is a program organized by a nonprofit called Hudson 639 00:34:06,120 --> 00:34:09,160 Speaker 1: Link for Higher Education in Prison. So in this program 640 00:34:09,239 --> 00:34:12,200 Speaker 1: that they allow inmates to enroll in college courses that 641 00:34:12,280 --> 00:34:15,239 Speaker 1: count toward a degree once they've been released. So for 642 00:34:15,280 --> 00:34:18,320 Speaker 1: the last nineteen years, the group has partnered with eight colleges, 643 00:34:18,360 --> 00:34:21,680 Speaker 1: one of them being Columbia University, to offer classes two 644 00:34:21,719 --> 00:34:25,879 Speaker 1: inmates at six different correctional facilities. So the program's aim 645 00:34:25,920 --> 00:34:28,879 Speaker 1: is to increase the chance of employment upon release and 646 00:34:28,920 --> 00:34:31,960 Speaker 1: reduce recidivism, and so far it seems to be working. 647 00:34:31,960 --> 00:34:34,520 Speaker 1: I mean, release prisoners who have taken classes offer through 648 00:34:34,600 --> 00:34:38,400 Speaker 1: Hudson Link have a recidivism rate of less than two percent. 649 00:34:38,680 --> 00:34:41,480 Speaker 1: That's unbelievable. So what kind of stuff are they studying. 650 00:34:41,880 --> 00:34:43,719 Speaker 1: It's a little bit of everything, really. I Mean one 651 00:34:43,719 --> 00:34:46,960 Speaker 1: of the courses from last year was a literature humanities class, 652 00:34:47,000 --> 00:34:49,640 Speaker 1: so they read and discussed ideas from ancient authors like 653 00:34:49,800 --> 00:34:53,719 Speaker 1: Homer and Virgil, which sounds heavy, but uh, how's that 654 00:34:53,760 --> 00:34:56,000 Speaker 1: help in the real world. I mean I feel like 655 00:34:56,000 --> 00:34:59,080 Speaker 1: a college parent talking right now, right exactly. Well, you know, 656 00:34:59,160 --> 00:35:01,279 Speaker 1: just like any liberal art student will tell you. You know, 657 00:35:01,320 --> 00:35:05,200 Speaker 1: studying classics helps develop critical thinking skills, and so you 658 00:35:05,200 --> 00:35:07,600 Speaker 1: don't learn just how to read well or write well 659 00:35:07,800 --> 00:35:10,440 Speaker 1: or speak well. You learn how to think well too, 660 00:35:10,480 --> 00:35:12,319 Speaker 1: and and that can be useful for people who are 661 00:35:12,360 --> 00:35:15,640 Speaker 1: interested in, you know, better life choices. But according to 662 00:35:15,680 --> 00:35:19,400 Speaker 1: the course instructor, professor Laura kol Kowski, there's also another 663 00:35:19,520 --> 00:35:22,200 Speaker 1: benefit to engaging with these books. She says it can 664 00:35:22,200 --> 00:35:24,920 Speaker 1: help students gain more confidence, so they feel more comfortable 665 00:35:24,920 --> 00:35:28,040 Speaker 1: taking part in other debates once they're released. As she 666 00:35:28,120 --> 00:35:30,880 Speaker 1: puts it, there's really a deep value for them to 667 00:35:30,960 --> 00:35:33,120 Speaker 1: feel like, yeah, I can read this stuff and talk 668 00:35:33,160 --> 00:35:35,520 Speaker 1: about it. I'm part of a civil society and can 669 00:35:35,560 --> 00:35:38,320 Speaker 1: be part of a larger conversation. Yeah. I can definitely 670 00:35:38,360 --> 00:35:40,880 Speaker 1: see that, and and I'm definitely for any program that 671 00:35:40,960 --> 00:35:44,319 Speaker 1: helps prisoners find their voice. Again, speaking of it, have 672 00:35:44,360 --> 00:35:46,399 Speaker 1: you been listening to Your Hustle? Oh? I haven't. I'm 673 00:35:46,440 --> 00:35:48,000 Speaker 1: actually so glad you brought it up, because I was 674 00:35:48,040 --> 00:35:50,160 Speaker 1: going to if you didn't. Yeah, So, for any listeners 675 00:35:50,200 --> 00:35:52,319 Speaker 1: who haven't checked it out yet, Your Hustle is this 676 00:35:52,400 --> 00:35:55,920 Speaker 1: bi weekly podcast about life inside San Quentin State Prison. 677 00:35:56,360 --> 00:35:59,200 Speaker 1: And that's interesting enough right there. But the really cool 678 00:35:59,239 --> 00:36:02,440 Speaker 1: thing is that it's created and recorded and also produced 679 00:36:02,440 --> 00:36:05,640 Speaker 1: by two current inmates and this volunteer local artist, all 680 00:36:05,680 --> 00:36:07,919 Speaker 1: in the very limited free time they have every week, 681 00:36:08,400 --> 00:36:10,920 Speaker 1: and one of the inmates or long Woods co hosts, 682 00:36:10,920 --> 00:36:13,760 Speaker 1: and this other guy, Anton Williams, handles all the show's 683 00:36:13,760 --> 00:36:16,600 Speaker 1: sound design. It's all done through a keyboard bar from 684 00:36:16,640 --> 00:36:20,200 Speaker 1: the Prisons Media Lab. It's pretty awesome, and it reminds 685 00:36:20,200 --> 00:36:22,520 Speaker 1: you that these are human beings. We're talking about. Yeah, 686 00:36:22,760 --> 00:36:25,120 Speaker 1: it is amazing, And your hustle is full of interviews 687 00:36:25,120 --> 00:36:27,959 Speaker 1: with different prisoners on all sorts of topics. So they'll 688 00:36:27,960 --> 00:36:31,239 Speaker 1: cover things like justice and regret and love and race 689 00:36:31,320 --> 00:36:35,080 Speaker 1: and isolation, but also more mundane things like you know, 690 00:36:35,160 --> 00:36:38,719 Speaker 1: food and pets and disagreements with cellmates. It's definitely worth 691 00:36:38,760 --> 00:36:40,920 Speaker 1: a lessen. Yeah, but but it's also just like this 692 00:36:41,000 --> 00:36:43,640 Speaker 1: great example of what a program that invests in prisoners 693 00:36:43,640 --> 00:36:46,880 Speaker 1: as people can lead to. Yeah, you know, And because 694 00:36:46,880 --> 00:36:49,560 Speaker 1: we're talking about the importance of giving prisoners a voice, 695 00:36:50,120 --> 00:36:51,960 Speaker 1: I want to share Wood's own take on what he 696 00:36:52,000 --> 00:36:55,160 Speaker 1: considers the aim of the podcast. So he writes, I 697 00:36:55,200 --> 00:36:57,120 Speaker 1: want the listeners to be able to relate to the 698 00:36:57,160 --> 00:36:59,160 Speaker 1: struggles that we go through on a day to day 699 00:36:59,200 --> 00:37:01,800 Speaker 1: basis and not get caught up in the US versus 700 00:37:01,880 --> 00:37:05,239 Speaker 1: them mentality. We're all the same. Some of us just 701 00:37:05,280 --> 00:37:07,600 Speaker 1: took different routes and needed a time out and a 702 00:37:07,600 --> 00:37:11,680 Speaker 1: little rehabilitation to get back to responsible behavior. So I know, 703 00:37:11,760 --> 00:37:14,680 Speaker 1: we started by acknowledging that fixing the entire prison system 704 00:37:14,719 --> 00:37:17,239 Speaker 1: is beyond the scope of our forty five minute podcast. 705 00:37:17,320 --> 00:37:19,160 Speaker 1: But wait, are you about to tell us how to 706 00:37:19,200 --> 00:37:22,640 Speaker 1: fix the entire prison system. Yeah, definitely not. And I 707 00:37:22,680 --> 00:37:24,440 Speaker 1: know I'm at risk of sounding like a p s 708 00:37:24,480 --> 00:37:27,600 Speaker 1: A here, but I would encourage anyone who's heard anything 709 00:37:27,640 --> 00:37:30,560 Speaker 1: on today's show that surprised them to do your own 710 00:37:30,600 --> 00:37:33,520 Speaker 1: research and even let your congressman or women know about 711 00:37:33,560 --> 00:37:36,240 Speaker 1: anything you find you don't like. It might sound silly 712 00:37:36,400 --> 00:37:39,799 Speaker 1: or Pollyanna, but just raising awareness about problems in the 713 00:37:39,800 --> 00:37:42,440 Speaker 1: prison system can really help make those two plus million 714 00:37:42,480 --> 00:37:46,480 Speaker 1: citizens who are part of it feel a little less invisible. Yeah, 715 00:37:46,520 --> 00:37:48,720 Speaker 1: I think you're right, Mango. I mean, it's definitely a start, 716 00:37:48,760 --> 00:37:50,799 Speaker 1: but um, you know, I don't want you to think 717 00:37:50,800 --> 00:37:52,839 Speaker 1: that your p s A announcement will win you any 718 00:37:52,880 --> 00:37:55,600 Speaker 1: sympathy in today's fact off, just to be clear about that. 719 00:38:04,920 --> 00:38:06,759 Speaker 1: So I gotta kick this off with one person who 720 00:38:06,880 --> 00:38:10,600 Speaker 1: definitely doesn't seem to have been rehabilitated. Courts reported that 721 00:38:10,760 --> 00:38:13,680 Speaker 1: in prison Bernie made Off, who scammed America out of 722 00:38:13,840 --> 00:38:17,400 Speaker 1: so much money, used as economic savvy to corner the 723 00:38:17,480 --> 00:38:20,759 Speaker 1: hot chocolate market and then sell it into prison yard 724 00:38:20,800 --> 00:38:24,200 Speaker 1: at high margin. Friendly Anyone who wanted some of that 725 00:38:24,280 --> 00:38:27,120 Speaker 1: sweet Swissmas needed to go through Uncle Bernie to get 726 00:38:27,120 --> 00:38:29,560 Speaker 1: a taste. He clearly feels a lot of regret for 727 00:38:29,600 --> 00:38:32,120 Speaker 1: what he's done. That's crazy, all right. Well, here's the 728 00:38:32,160 --> 00:38:34,759 Speaker 1: fact I found surprising about a Spanish prison called r 729 00:38:34,760 --> 00:38:38,279 Speaker 1: O S, which is notable for having cells for families. 730 00:38:38,760 --> 00:38:41,080 Speaker 1: But normally, if an inmate has a baby, the child 731 00:38:41,160 --> 00:38:44,000 Speaker 1: is sent to foster care to live with relatives. But 732 00:38:44,400 --> 00:38:46,920 Speaker 1: here the child is allowed to stay with their parents 733 00:38:47,000 --> 00:38:50,319 Speaker 1: until they're three years old. The children have toys and 734 00:38:50,360 --> 00:38:52,960 Speaker 1: other kids to play with, and the bonding is supposed 735 00:38:53,000 --> 00:38:55,440 Speaker 1: to not only help the child but give the parents 736 00:38:55,480 --> 00:38:58,920 Speaker 1: something to look forward to after their sentences served. So 737 00:38:59,000 --> 00:39:01,480 Speaker 1: this one totally baffled me. But have you heard that 738 00:39:01,760 --> 00:39:04,520 Speaker 1: prison authorities in Abu Dhabi are planning a jail where 739 00:39:04,560 --> 00:39:07,680 Speaker 1: inmates could serve their sentences without ever meeting a prison guard. 740 00:39:08,040 --> 00:39:11,719 Speaker 1: So how does that work? So instead of interacting with guards, 741 00:39:11,719 --> 00:39:18,319 Speaker 1: this humane prison has people communicating with quote social workers, trainers, psychologists, counselors, 742 00:39:18,320 --> 00:39:21,960 Speaker 1: and medical staff and they continue uh quote. Security guards 743 00:39:22,000 --> 00:39:24,920 Speaker 1: will be available behind the scenes, but asked to intervene 744 00:39:25,000 --> 00:39:28,280 Speaker 1: only when necessary. Definitely curious to see how that works. 745 00:39:28,640 --> 00:39:30,560 Speaker 1: All right. Here here's what I found curious about the 746 00:39:30,600 --> 00:39:34,000 Speaker 1: Civil War prison camp in Elmira, New York. Apparently the 747 00:39:34,000 --> 00:39:37,239 Speaker 1: prison camp had two observation towers for visitors where they 748 00:39:37,239 --> 00:39:41,520 Speaker 1: had concession stands selling peanuts, lemonade, and cakes, all while 749 00:39:41,600 --> 00:39:46,399 Speaker 1: you watched people suffering below. That's so gross. Also, it's 750 00:39:46,400 --> 00:39:48,760 Speaker 1: a little different than the Philippines prisons where they charge 751 00:39:48,840 --> 00:39:51,640 Speaker 1: visitors to watch them dance to thriller in Greece, I 752 00:39:51,640 --> 00:39:55,040 Speaker 1: mean that's to make money for the facilities. But speaking 753 00:39:55,080 --> 00:39:57,560 Speaker 1: of entertainment, did you know that the opening song of 754 00:39:57,560 --> 00:39:59,840 Speaker 1: the Coen Brothers movie, Oh Brother, Where Art Thou? Was 755 00:40:00,000 --> 00:40:03,640 Speaker 1: actually an old track from nine recorded by prisoners. The 756 00:40:03,680 --> 00:40:06,160 Speaker 1: most amazing part is that forty years later, the Coen 757 00:40:06,200 --> 00:40:08,640 Speaker 1: Brothers actually tracked down one of the prisoners, this guy 758 00:40:08,719 --> 00:40:12,320 Speaker 1: named James Carter, and paid him royalties. Oh that's perfect. 759 00:40:13,120 --> 00:40:15,440 Speaker 1: I've actually got one about a different James Carter. And 760 00:40:15,440 --> 00:40:17,040 Speaker 1: this is an incredible story I read in the New 761 00:40:17,080 --> 00:40:20,480 Speaker 1: York Times about Jimmy Carter. Apparently, this woman, Mary Prince, 762 00:40:20,520 --> 00:40:23,160 Speaker 1: who had been convicted of murder, was assigned to work 763 00:40:23,200 --> 00:40:25,759 Speaker 1: at the Governor's mansion and a work release program when 764 00:40:25,760 --> 00:40:28,239 Speaker 1: he was there, and after Carter spent time with her, 765 00:40:28,280 --> 00:40:31,040 Speaker 1: he became so convinced that she was innocent, that he 766 00:40:31,080 --> 00:40:34,080 Speaker 1: applied to be her parole officer. Also he could take 767 00:40:34,080 --> 00:40:36,240 Speaker 1: her to the White House to be his daughter's nanny. 768 00:40:36,560 --> 00:40:40,120 Speaker 1: Prince was eventually pardoned, but it's kind of an unbelievable story. 769 00:40:40,280 --> 00:40:42,480 Speaker 1: Oh I like that one. And ending this on a 770 00:40:42,520 --> 00:40:45,880 Speaker 1: hopeful note. So you in today's trophy, and that's it 771 00:40:45,960 --> 00:40:48,440 Speaker 1: for today's Part Time Genius. As always, if you've got 772 00:40:48,440 --> 00:40:50,840 Speaker 1: comments or feedback, please don't hesitate to write us at 773 00:40:50,880 --> 00:40:53,279 Speaker 1: part Time Genius at how stuff Works dot com or 774 00:40:53,360 --> 00:40:56,799 Speaker 1: hit us up on our seven fact hotline four four 775 00:40:56,960 --> 00:41:15,480 Speaker 1: pt Genius. So that's eve it is, thanks again for listening. 776 00:41:15,600 --> 00:41:17,759 Speaker 1: Part Time Genius is a production of How Stuff Works 777 00:41:17,760 --> 00:41:20,360 Speaker 1: and wouldn't be possible without several brilliant people who do 778 00:41:20,400 --> 00:41:23,400 Speaker 1: the important things we couldn't even begin to understand. CHRISTA 779 00:41:23,480 --> 00:41:26,080 Speaker 1: McNeil does the editing thing. Noel Brown made the theme 780 00:41:26,120 --> 00:41:28,960 Speaker 1: song and does the mixy mixy sound thing. Jerry Rowland 781 00:41:29,040 --> 00:41:32,320 Speaker 1: does the exact producer thing. Gay Bluesier is our lead researcher, 782 00:41:32,400 --> 00:41:35,360 Speaker 1: with support from the research army including Austin Thompson, Nolan 783 00:41:35,400 --> 00:41:37,600 Speaker 1: Brown and Lucas Adams, and even Jeff Cook gets the 784 00:41:37,600 --> 00:41:39,880 Speaker 1: show to your ears. Good job, Eves. If you like 785 00:41:39,960 --> 00:41:41,759 Speaker 1: what you heard, we hope you'll subscribe, And if you 786 00:41:41,840 --> 00:41:43,799 Speaker 1: really really like what you've heard, maybe you could leave 787 00:41:43,800 --> 00:41:46,160 Speaker 1: a good review for us. Do we do we forget Jason? 788 00:41:46,520 --> 00:41:47,160 Speaker 1: Jason who