1 00:00:02,880 --> 00:00:06,400 Speaker 1: November seventeenth, nineteen ninety, was the first Saturday of deer 2 00:00:06,480 --> 00:00:10,520 Speaker 1: season in Michigan. Eager hunters took to the woods, including 3 00:00:10,520 --> 00:00:14,800 Speaker 1: at the Fulton Game Area near Calabazoo. Around four point 4 00:00:14,800 --> 00:00:18,600 Speaker 1: thirty that afternoon. Not long before sunset, two gunshots rang out, 5 00:00:18,800 --> 00:00:23,040 Speaker 1: and not long after that two hunters, Augustus and Jim Bennett, 6 00:00:23,120 --> 00:00:27,040 Speaker 1: were found dead. A couple of days later, Jeff Titus, 7 00:00:27,120 --> 00:00:29,480 Speaker 1: whose farm was directly adjacent to the State Game Area, 8 00:00:29,720 --> 00:00:32,480 Speaker 1: found a shotgun near his property and turned it over 9 00:00:32,520 --> 00:00:36,360 Speaker 1: to the sheriff. Jeff was investigated, but he said he'd 10 00:00:36,360 --> 00:00:39,240 Speaker 1: been out hunting himself that day, nearly thirty miles away, 11 00:00:39,760 --> 00:00:43,559 Speaker 1: and witnesses attested being with him. Jeff was cleared, but 12 00:00:43,880 --> 00:00:45,960 Speaker 1: no other leads than the case panned out either, and 13 00:00:46,000 --> 00:00:49,760 Speaker 1: the case went cold. Ten years later, the case was 14 00:00:49,800 --> 00:00:53,120 Speaker 1: revived and reinvestigated by the recently formned cold case unit. 15 00:00:53,840 --> 00:00:56,880 Speaker 1: They immediately fixated on Jeff as a suspect, based mainly 16 00:00:56,920 --> 00:00:59,360 Speaker 1: on his finding the shotgun and the fact that since 17 00:00:59,360 --> 00:01:01,600 Speaker 1: the murders had hand happened, he'd often brought the case 18 00:01:01,680 --> 00:01:03,120 Speaker 1: up and talked about it with his co workers the 19 00:01:03,240 --> 00:01:07,479 Speaker 1: VA where he worked as security officer. The witnesses who 20 00:01:07,560 --> 00:01:11,080 Speaker 1: had supported his alibi were now either unable to testify 21 00:01:11,360 --> 00:01:15,880 Speaker 1: or appeared unreliable a trial. Instead, the jury heard the 22 00:01:15,920 --> 00:01:19,920 Speaker 1: prosecution's argument that many people had found Jeff's obsession with 23 00:01:19,959 --> 00:01:22,920 Speaker 1: the killings disturbing and alleged the people who came near 24 00:01:22,920 --> 00:01:26,200 Speaker 1: his property were met with threats, and in the end 25 00:01:26,440 --> 00:01:44,240 Speaker 1: their verdict was unanimous. But this is wrongful conviction. Welcome 26 00:01:44,240 --> 00:01:47,080 Speaker 1: back to wrongful Conviction. I'm Susan Simpson, host of the 27 00:01:47,120 --> 00:01:50,600 Speaker 1: Proof and Undisclosed podcast, filling in for Jason Flohm. We're 28 00:01:50,640 --> 00:01:52,520 Speaker 1: here today with a case that's close to my heart. 29 00:01:52,680 --> 00:01:55,600 Speaker 1: I began investigating it in twenty twenty along with Decenda 30 00:01:55,680 --> 00:01:58,440 Speaker 1: Davis and Kevin Fitzpatrick of Red Marble Media when they 31 00:01:58,480 --> 00:02:00,320 Speaker 1: were covering it for their TV show Killer and Question. 32 00:02:00,800 --> 00:02:03,240 Speaker 1: I also covered the case in my podcast un Disclosed. 33 00:02:03,720 --> 00:02:06,120 Speaker 1: There have been a few updates since then, so I'm 34 00:02:06,160 --> 00:02:08,400 Speaker 1: really excited to share the story with you and for 35 00:02:08,440 --> 00:02:11,320 Speaker 1: you to meet our guest, Jeff Titus. Welcome, Jeff, Hi, 36 00:02:11,760 --> 00:02:14,079 Speaker 1: and we also have with us Jeff's attorney and co 37 00:02:14,120 --> 00:02:17,480 Speaker 1: director of the Michigan Innocence Clinic, Dave Moran. Listeners might 38 00:02:17,480 --> 00:02:20,840 Speaker 1: remember Dave from the Terry Caesar episode that Jason covered recently. 39 00:02:21,080 --> 00:02:22,320 Speaker 1: Thanks for being here again, Dave. 40 00:02:22,680 --> 00:02:24,600 Speaker 2: Thanks nice to be here, Jeff. 41 00:02:24,720 --> 00:02:27,720 Speaker 1: Before we talk about what happened in November of nineteen ninety, 42 00:02:27,919 --> 00:02:29,600 Speaker 1: why don't you tell listeners about yourself. 43 00:02:30,280 --> 00:02:32,760 Speaker 3: Well, I come from a family of nine kids. I'm 44 00:02:32,760 --> 00:02:35,160 Speaker 3: the second oldest. There was four boys, a girl and 45 00:02:35,200 --> 00:02:39,280 Speaker 3: four boys. I started working at a dairy fireman at twelve. 46 00:02:39,919 --> 00:02:42,720 Speaker 3: While I went to Penfield High School, I played football. 47 00:02:43,639 --> 00:02:46,399 Speaker 3: I worked on the farm after school, none as summers, 48 00:02:46,760 --> 00:02:49,320 Speaker 3: and then I went to the Marine Corps. 49 00:02:49,400 --> 00:02:51,440 Speaker 1: And as a result of that, you had the honor 50 00:02:51,440 --> 00:02:52,560 Speaker 1: of serving under the president. 51 00:02:52,720 --> 00:02:56,720 Speaker 3: Yes, I was a military policeman in the Marine Corps. 52 00:02:57,200 --> 00:02:59,880 Speaker 3: I was a white House security guard for a President Nickson. 53 00:03:00,240 --> 00:03:04,440 Speaker 3: Then I come home. I went to college and met 54 00:03:04,440 --> 00:03:07,680 Speaker 3: my wife when my future wife and got married in 55 00:03:07,720 --> 00:03:09,120 Speaker 3: August of seventy nine. 56 00:03:09,200 --> 00:03:11,280 Speaker 1: And then you had your two daughters and ended up 57 00:03:11,320 --> 00:03:15,000 Speaker 1: buying a beautiful old farmhouse on eighty acres in Fulton, Michigan. 58 00:03:15,280 --> 00:03:18,679 Speaker 3: The house built in eighteen seventy three, and we went 59 00:03:18,720 --> 00:03:21,040 Speaker 3: through and totally restored it, and we went through and 60 00:03:21,280 --> 00:03:24,600 Speaker 3: brass ceilings and ten ceilings. The original window still had 61 00:03:24,639 --> 00:03:28,240 Speaker 3: wooden plugs in them. I mean it was old and. 62 00:03:28,160 --> 00:03:30,960 Speaker 1: It was directly adjacent to the Fulton Game Area state 63 00:03:31,040 --> 00:03:33,560 Speaker 1: land where people can go and hunt. So, Jeff, let's 64 00:03:33,560 --> 00:03:37,200 Speaker 1: go back to November seventeenth, nineteen ninety, the opening Saturday 65 00:03:37,240 --> 00:03:39,800 Speaker 1: of deer season. You were thirty eight at the time, 66 00:03:39,960 --> 00:03:42,480 Speaker 1: and I know you're an avid hunter. So where were 67 00:03:42,520 --> 00:03:43,360 Speaker 1: you hunting that weekend? 68 00:03:43,840 --> 00:03:46,960 Speaker 3: I owned the first two days at my house. The 69 00:03:47,040 --> 00:03:50,480 Speaker 3: third day I left and went hunting at the northern 70 00:03:50,520 --> 00:03:53,680 Speaker 3: part of Calhoun County, north of Battle Creek, twenty seven 71 00:03:53,720 --> 00:03:54,720 Speaker 3: miles away. 72 00:03:54,880 --> 00:03:57,400 Speaker 1: And your friends Dan Dreschool was with you as well. 73 00:03:57,680 --> 00:04:00,280 Speaker 1: The two of you hunted on two adjacent farms owned 74 00:04:00,320 --> 00:04:03,400 Speaker 1: by family friends of yours, the Crandalls and the Shepherds. 75 00:04:03,680 --> 00:04:06,360 Speaker 3: Yes, they're next to each other. Crandalls have like fifteen 76 00:04:06,440 --> 00:04:10,400 Speaker 3: hundred acres. Shepherds have five to seven hundred acres. I 77 00:04:10,440 --> 00:04:11,560 Speaker 3: think something like that. 78 00:04:11,960 --> 00:04:14,800 Speaker 1: So on that Saturday, the day of the murders, you 79 00:04:14,800 --> 00:04:17,440 Speaker 1: were nearly thirty miles north of your place, around forty 80 00:04:17,440 --> 00:04:20,560 Speaker 1: five minute drive by car. That was a pretty typical 81 00:04:20,560 --> 00:04:21,960 Speaker 1: weekend for you in deer season, right. 82 00:04:22,200 --> 00:04:25,080 Speaker 3: Well, stand and me would hunt crandalls. He would go 83 00:04:25,160 --> 00:04:27,800 Speaker 3: to his spot. I would go to Minke and usually 84 00:04:27,839 --> 00:04:32,479 Speaker 3: we're separated aways and Stan would get deer some year, 85 00:04:32,600 --> 00:04:36,000 Speaker 3: some years he wouldn't. I always seemed to get him. 86 00:04:36,880 --> 00:04:40,719 Speaker 3: I mean, I can shoot. And that night at four thirty, 87 00:04:40,880 --> 00:04:43,080 Speaker 3: I thought I was shooting in the buck, but I 88 00:04:43,160 --> 00:04:46,360 Speaker 3: hit a dough and went up to the farm, got 89 00:04:46,440 --> 00:04:49,440 Speaker 3: my truck, come back, loaded it up with sand, and 90 00:04:49,480 --> 00:04:51,520 Speaker 3: then we left and waved to the farmer and went 91 00:04:51,560 --> 00:04:53,440 Speaker 3: to burger King to eat, and then went home. 92 00:04:53,800 --> 00:04:56,000 Speaker 1: And what did you and stand fine when you got 93 00:04:56,000 --> 00:04:56,640 Speaker 1: back to your farm. 94 00:04:56,680 --> 00:04:59,120 Speaker 3: That night we got back home, I talked to my 95 00:04:59,200 --> 00:05:01,680 Speaker 3: wife and said we were going out back to take 96 00:05:01,720 --> 00:05:05,320 Speaker 3: care of a deer. And where my woods was there 97 00:05:05,440 --> 00:05:07,720 Speaker 3: was all kinds of lights. So I drove over there 98 00:05:08,400 --> 00:05:11,320 Speaker 3: and I introduced myself and said I was a police officer, 99 00:05:11,880 --> 00:05:16,119 Speaker 3: which I was for the Veterans Administration, and I said, 100 00:05:16,720 --> 00:05:20,360 Speaker 3: you know what happened? And they didn't really say much. 101 00:05:21,120 --> 00:05:24,000 Speaker 3: Later I learned that two people had been shot. 102 00:05:24,680 --> 00:05:26,120 Speaker 2: In the Fulton Game area. 103 00:05:26,600 --> 00:05:31,320 Speaker 4: Several hunters heard some shots fired, very loud, shots fired 104 00:05:31,360 --> 00:05:36,080 Speaker 4: in short succession, and when other hunters went to investigate, 105 00:05:36,160 --> 00:05:39,280 Speaker 4: they discovered two bodies in the woods and both had 106 00:05:39,279 --> 00:05:43,520 Speaker 4: been shot in the back, fatally by shotgun. The wounds 107 00:05:43,520 --> 00:05:47,000 Speaker 4: were different because there were different types of shotgun ammunition 108 00:05:47,120 --> 00:05:49,960 Speaker 4: used on the two men. So it was within the 109 00:05:50,000 --> 00:05:52,560 Speaker 4: game area, but it was less than one hundred yards 110 00:05:52,600 --> 00:05:56,760 Speaker 4: from the property line of the back of Jeff Titus's farm. 111 00:05:57,520 --> 00:05:59,720 Speaker 3: I offered for them to go on my farm to 112 00:05:59,800 --> 00:06:03,200 Speaker 3: dry back to the scene, and that's what the ambulance 113 00:06:03,240 --> 00:06:05,800 Speaker 3: did later that night when they went back to get 114 00:06:05,800 --> 00:06:09,280 Speaker 3: to bodies. Then I went down to my neighbors and 115 00:06:09,400 --> 00:06:13,200 Speaker 3: told her what had happened, and that was between eight 116 00:06:13,240 --> 00:06:14,240 Speaker 3: and nine. 117 00:06:14,279 --> 00:06:16,920 Speaker 1: And both their neighbor, Bonnie Huffman and her mother later 118 00:06:16,960 --> 00:06:19,640 Speaker 1: told police that you'd stop by around eight pm that 119 00:06:19,720 --> 00:06:23,120 Speaker 1: night and visited with them for about twenty minutes. The 120 00:06:23,160 --> 00:06:25,760 Speaker 1: police later confirmed that the two victims in the case 121 00:06:25,800 --> 00:06:28,960 Speaker 1: wereked Doug Gustus from Kalamazoo and Jim Bennett, who lived 122 00:06:28,960 --> 00:06:31,680 Speaker 1: near Fulton and Leonidas. They had both gone to the 123 00:06:31,720 --> 00:06:34,200 Speaker 1: Fulton game area that day separately to go deer hunting, 124 00:06:34,520 --> 00:06:36,960 Speaker 1: and they did not know each other. Their bodies had 125 00:06:37,000 --> 00:06:39,760 Speaker 1: been found about one hundred feet behind your property line, Jeff. 126 00:06:40,080 --> 00:06:42,120 Speaker 1: Both been shot in the back, one of them with 127 00:06:42,160 --> 00:06:46,480 Speaker 1: buckshot and the other with a slug. Not long before sunset, 128 00:06:46,760 --> 00:06:49,960 Speaker 1: Doug Estes's eighteen year old stepson, who'd been hunting with him, 129 00:06:50,400 --> 00:06:53,240 Speaker 1: had heard two shots ring out. He thought maybe a 130 00:06:53,279 --> 00:06:56,360 Speaker 1: stepdad Doug had shot a deer, so after a bit 131 00:06:56,720 --> 00:06:59,320 Speaker 1: he went up looking for him to hopefully help him 132 00:06:59,320 --> 00:07:02,520 Speaker 1: carry a deer back. Instead, he found the two bodies 133 00:07:02,600 --> 00:07:05,200 Speaker 1: lying on the forest floor. The next day, the police 134 00:07:05,200 --> 00:07:07,320 Speaker 1: did a grid search that went out about seventy feet 135 00:07:07,320 --> 00:07:09,640 Speaker 1: in every direction from where the bodies were found. Jeff, 136 00:07:09,840 --> 00:07:10,760 Speaker 1: what were they looking for? 137 00:07:11,680 --> 00:07:14,800 Speaker 3: They were searching for a missing gun, and they said 138 00:07:14,840 --> 00:07:17,800 Speaker 3: that they were never more than two feet apart walking 139 00:07:17,880 --> 00:07:22,920 Speaker 3: that whole wood area. Now, the day after that, I 140 00:07:23,080 --> 00:07:26,280 Speaker 3: walked back. I was checking my traps. I walked over 141 00:07:26,320 --> 00:07:29,880 Speaker 3: to that area and found the shotgun. I went up, 142 00:07:30,280 --> 00:07:33,480 Speaker 3: never touched it, went up, called the Sheriff's department. I said, 143 00:07:33,520 --> 00:07:37,120 Speaker 3: I just found the shotgun back on State Land and 144 00:07:37,320 --> 00:07:40,080 Speaker 3: I don't know if it's related to what happened or whatever. 145 00:07:40,720 --> 00:07:43,440 Speaker 3: Then I say, I called the press and let them know, 146 00:07:44,080 --> 00:07:47,200 Speaker 3: and then the police come out. I showed them where 147 00:07:47,200 --> 00:07:50,760 Speaker 3: it was at, and you know, it made me a 148 00:07:50,800 --> 00:07:55,880 Speaker 3: suspect because I found it, and that's when things started. 149 00:07:56,120 --> 00:07:58,560 Speaker 1: That shotgun turned out to have belonged to Augustus and 150 00:07:58,640 --> 00:08:01,440 Speaker 1: had been moved away from the box bodies fairly close 151 00:08:01,480 --> 00:08:03,680 Speaker 1: to your property line, actually not on your property, but 152 00:08:03,880 --> 00:08:06,880 Speaker 1: much closer than the bodies were. And at first the 153 00:08:06,960 --> 00:08:08,600 Speaker 1: police said, well, we would have found it if it 154 00:08:08,640 --> 00:08:12,560 Speaker 1: was there, but as later it was determined their actual 155 00:08:12,600 --> 00:08:15,360 Speaker 1: notes suggest they didn't search the area where you did 156 00:08:15,400 --> 00:08:19,200 Speaker 1: find the shotgun, but for obvious reasons. You were a 157 00:08:19,200 --> 00:08:21,240 Speaker 1: suspect at least one of the suspects in the case, 158 00:08:21,720 --> 00:08:25,200 Speaker 1: and there were two detectives who were working on it, 159 00:08:25,280 --> 00:08:28,480 Speaker 1: Bruce Rosima and Roy Ballot. What did they do to 160 00:08:28,480 --> 00:08:28,960 Speaker 1: look into you? 161 00:08:29,280 --> 00:08:33,720 Speaker 3: They went to Shepherd's Dairy Farming Crandles and talk to them. 162 00:08:33,960 --> 00:08:37,160 Speaker 3: They did this statement they took from Shepherd's. Shepherds signed 163 00:08:37,200 --> 00:08:40,000 Speaker 3: it and both detectives signed it saying that I was 164 00:08:40,040 --> 00:08:41,480 Speaker 3: there and never left that night. 165 00:08:41,960 --> 00:08:44,040 Speaker 1: So at this point the police knew that they had 166 00:08:44,040 --> 00:08:45,600 Speaker 1: the owners of the farm where you were at the 167 00:08:45,640 --> 00:08:48,400 Speaker 1: Shepherds saying that you'd been there hunting at their farm 168 00:08:48,800 --> 00:08:51,560 Speaker 1: until a little after sunset when you and Stan packed 169 00:08:51,640 --> 00:08:54,400 Speaker 1: up and left. They also know that the two victims 170 00:08:54,400 --> 00:08:56,880 Speaker 1: in the case were killed a little before sunset, around 171 00:08:56,960 --> 00:08:59,840 Speaker 1: four thirty pm. So at the time that they were killed, 172 00:09:00,080 --> 00:09:02,280 Speaker 1: you had these alibi witnesses saying that you were there 173 00:09:02,280 --> 00:09:04,719 Speaker 1: at this farm north of Battle Creek, a forty five 174 00:09:04,720 --> 00:09:06,000 Speaker 1: minute plus drive away. 175 00:09:06,360 --> 00:09:10,199 Speaker 3: And my vehicle was sparked right behind their house, and 176 00:09:10,360 --> 00:09:13,360 Speaker 3: you cannot leave that house without making noise because they 177 00:09:13,400 --> 00:09:16,120 Speaker 3: had a crush stone driveway, they would have heard me leave. 178 00:09:16,559 --> 00:09:19,240 Speaker 1: Yeah, So on the strength of this alibi, the original 179 00:09:19,240 --> 00:09:23,559 Speaker 1: detectives where Seema and Dallatt had excluded you as a suspect. Now, 180 00:09:23,640 --> 00:09:26,560 Speaker 1: there were other suspects in the investigation, including a man 181 00:09:26,559 --> 00:09:28,319 Speaker 1: who'd run his car into a ditch off the side 182 00:09:28,360 --> 00:09:30,640 Speaker 1: of the road near the Fulton Game area and the 183 00:09:30,679 --> 00:09:34,079 Speaker 1: aftermath of the murder, but that lead, along with others, 184 00:09:34,320 --> 00:09:38,480 Speaker 1: fizzled out and the case pretty soon went cold. Now, 185 00:09:38,920 --> 00:09:41,400 Speaker 1: even though you've been cleared as a suspect, there were 186 00:09:41,480 --> 00:09:44,079 Speaker 1: still people in the community who either thought you might 187 00:09:44,120 --> 00:09:46,720 Speaker 1: have done it, or at least would spread rumors about 188 00:09:46,760 --> 00:09:49,400 Speaker 1: you to that effect, right, And you also had a 189 00:09:49,400 --> 00:09:52,040 Speaker 1: habit of talking about the case. You'd mentioned it in 190 00:09:52,080 --> 00:09:54,880 Speaker 1: conversation and it was something that came up a few 191 00:09:54,880 --> 00:09:56,240 Speaker 1: times at your workplace as well. 192 00:09:56,640 --> 00:09:59,959 Speaker 3: People would ask me questions about the case where I worked, 193 00:10:00,640 --> 00:10:02,720 Speaker 3: and I would say this or I would say that, 194 00:10:03,520 --> 00:10:05,600 Speaker 3: and they would hear it in a way that they 195 00:10:05,640 --> 00:10:08,520 Speaker 3: wanted to hear it, like I say, And I told them, 196 00:10:08,559 --> 00:10:11,000 Speaker 3: I said, I didn't do nothing. I was another place 197 00:10:11,080 --> 00:10:16,679 Speaker 3: hunting and I'm innocent. But these people turned around start 198 00:10:16,720 --> 00:10:33,880 Speaker 3: calling you better to look at Jeff Titus. 199 00:10:35,080 --> 00:10:38,760 Speaker 1: So eight years go by, and then in nineteen ninety eight, 200 00:10:39,080 --> 00:10:42,319 Speaker 1: the Kalamazoo County Sheriff's Department forms a new cold case unit. 201 00:10:42,800 --> 00:10:46,200 Speaker 1: They're tasked with looking into some of the area's cold cases, 202 00:10:46,400 --> 00:10:47,640 Speaker 1: of which there were quite a few. 203 00:10:47,640 --> 00:10:48,199 Speaker 2: At that time. 204 00:10:48,760 --> 00:10:51,760 Speaker 1: They had had some initial successes. I think they'd solved 205 00:10:51,800 --> 00:10:54,679 Speaker 1: around eight cases, and they were very proud of their 206 00:10:54,720 --> 00:10:57,600 Speaker 1: one hundred percent success rate, as they called it. But Dave, 207 00:10:57,800 --> 00:10:59,920 Speaker 1: as you and I have talked about, cold case unit 208 00:11:00,160 --> 00:11:03,080 Speaker 1: often feature in local convictions, and there are broader problems 209 00:11:03,120 --> 00:11:05,120 Speaker 1: with how they operate. Can you take a minute to 210 00:11:05,120 --> 00:11:05,679 Speaker 1: explain that. 211 00:11:06,240 --> 00:11:08,640 Speaker 4: I do think that the problem with some cold case units, 212 00:11:08,920 --> 00:11:12,440 Speaker 4: and particularly this one, is to justify their existence, that 213 00:11:12,559 --> 00:11:14,120 Speaker 4: they have to not only go back and look at 214 00:11:14,120 --> 00:11:16,360 Speaker 4: old cases, but they have to purport to solve them. 215 00:11:16,440 --> 00:11:18,880 Speaker 4: If they go back and say, yep, that one's a toughie, 216 00:11:18,920 --> 00:11:21,320 Speaker 4: there's really nowhere to go with it, and they do 217 00:11:21,400 --> 00:11:23,439 Speaker 4: that in case after case, Well, people are going to 218 00:11:23,480 --> 00:11:26,280 Speaker 4: wonder why are we funding this exercise and futility in 219 00:11:26,320 --> 00:11:29,520 Speaker 4: the first place. And so there's a real problem of 220 00:11:29,800 --> 00:11:33,680 Speaker 4: pressure internal or possibly external for a cold case team 221 00:11:33,720 --> 00:11:36,280 Speaker 4: to come up with a solution. And then you've got 222 00:11:36,280 --> 00:11:38,640 Speaker 4: a team like this that claims one hundred percent hit rate, 223 00:11:38,840 --> 00:11:41,440 Speaker 4: and so now they've got to solve every case that 224 00:11:41,480 --> 00:11:43,600 Speaker 4: they look at. They've got to fit round pegs and 225 00:11:43,600 --> 00:11:45,360 Speaker 4: square holes and square pegs. 226 00:11:45,040 --> 00:11:47,719 Speaker 2: And round holes in order to keep that record up. 227 00:11:47,800 --> 00:11:50,480 Speaker 1: And we'll talk later on about how that tunnel visionality 228 00:11:50,559 --> 00:11:53,520 Speaker 1: came into play in Jeff's case. But in nineteen ninety 229 00:11:53,559 --> 00:11:55,880 Speaker 1: nine or so, they decided to reopen the case of 230 00:11:55,920 --> 00:11:59,040 Speaker 1: the Fulton Game Area deer hunters, and then in two 231 00:11:59,040 --> 00:12:02,040 Speaker 1: thousand Jeff he received a subpoena. 232 00:12:02,240 --> 00:12:06,400 Speaker 3: And then I went to Kalamazoo talked to them, and 233 00:12:06,440 --> 00:12:08,200 Speaker 3: then when I got done, they said, well, we got 234 00:12:08,200 --> 00:12:10,640 Speaker 3: a search one for your house. So they followed me 235 00:12:10,720 --> 00:12:13,240 Speaker 3: back to my house when I got back there, the 236 00:12:13,280 --> 00:12:16,319 Speaker 3: bomb squad was there, the FBI was there, the sheriff's 237 00:12:16,320 --> 00:12:19,400 Speaker 3: department was there, the different police departments were all there, 238 00:12:19,760 --> 00:12:23,040 Speaker 3: and then each took a section of my barns and 239 00:12:23,120 --> 00:12:25,320 Speaker 3: houses and rooms and started searching. 240 00:12:25,679 --> 00:12:28,000 Speaker 1: And what was some of the evidence, as they put it, 241 00:12:28,080 --> 00:12:29,840 Speaker 1: that they found on your property. 242 00:12:29,640 --> 00:12:32,880 Speaker 3: Had the newspaper articles of when I found the gun, 243 00:12:33,400 --> 00:12:37,240 Speaker 3: and then my videos of being a marine corpse sniper, 244 00:12:37,760 --> 00:12:40,960 Speaker 3: my thing on a gilly suit, the movie Sniper. 245 00:12:40,840 --> 00:12:43,160 Speaker 1: Yeah, the movie based on that Tom Clancy. 246 00:12:42,760 --> 00:12:45,840 Speaker 3: Novel, right, right, But they know they had that. 247 00:12:45,800 --> 00:12:49,480 Speaker 1: As evidence that you were inclined to commit murder, right, Yeah. 248 00:12:49,520 --> 00:12:51,880 Speaker 1: The cold case team, well, they did a very thorough 249 00:12:52,080 --> 00:12:55,079 Speaker 1: in some way as investigation. They talked to a lot 250 00:12:55,120 --> 00:12:57,520 Speaker 1: of people, and I know from following their footsteps and 251 00:12:57,600 --> 00:13:00,320 Speaker 1: trying to retrace all their interviews just how much ground 252 00:13:00,360 --> 00:13:02,840 Speaker 1: they covered. And what they managed to find was a 253 00:13:02,840 --> 00:13:05,240 Speaker 1: lot of people who told them didn't like me, A 254 00:13:05,240 --> 00:13:07,680 Speaker 1: lot of people who didn't like you, yeah, and who 255 00:13:07,720 --> 00:13:09,719 Speaker 1: said that you had said things that they thought could 256 00:13:09,760 --> 00:13:10,640 Speaker 1: make you look guilty. 257 00:13:11,080 --> 00:13:14,200 Speaker 3: See. I had a house that was out in the country. 258 00:13:14,520 --> 00:13:16,840 Speaker 3: I had no neighbors for a quarter mile each way, 259 00:13:17,720 --> 00:13:19,920 Speaker 3: and one of the things I said is if you 260 00:13:20,000 --> 00:13:22,680 Speaker 3: come to my house and break in, I'll be picking 261 00:13:22,760 --> 00:13:25,400 Speaker 3: up your body parts when I come home because my 262 00:13:25,480 --> 00:13:29,400 Speaker 3: house was wired, and that was demolitions expert. Well, that 263 00:13:29,440 --> 00:13:31,640 Speaker 3: didn't go over with people, but I'd never had a 264 00:13:31,679 --> 00:13:32,040 Speaker 3: break in. 265 00:13:32,360 --> 00:13:36,520 Speaker 1: But to clarify, your house was not actually wired, No, no, 266 00:13:36,600 --> 00:13:39,840 Speaker 1: it was not. When Jacinta and I were investigating your case, 267 00:13:40,160 --> 00:13:42,559 Speaker 1: we interviewed one of the detectives from the cold case team, 268 00:13:42,640 --> 00:13:45,680 Speaker 1: Detective Workima, as well as one of the prosecutors, Stu Fitten, 269 00:13:46,080 --> 00:13:48,920 Speaker 1: and I remember Detective Workima describes something about his investigative 270 00:13:48,920 --> 00:13:52,640 Speaker 1: technique that he called waking a memory. That's his process 271 00:13:52,679 --> 00:13:56,040 Speaker 1: of going to a witness, talking to them once, and 272 00:13:56,080 --> 00:13:58,199 Speaker 1: then going back to them as many as six or 273 00:13:58,200 --> 00:14:00,880 Speaker 1: seven more times. Each time I am with a little 274 00:14:00,880 --> 00:14:04,120 Speaker 1: more information and feedback mother witnesses, giving the witness a 275 00:14:04,240 --> 00:14:08,520 Speaker 1: chance to basically tell a better story. And according to Werkima, 276 00:14:08,760 --> 00:14:11,559 Speaker 1: this was an effective technique because it managed to get 277 00:14:11,600 --> 00:14:14,240 Speaker 1: witnesses to say things that they would not have originally remembered. 278 00:14:14,640 --> 00:14:17,079 Speaker 1: On the other hand, though this could certainly have the 279 00:14:17,120 --> 00:14:20,840 Speaker 1: effect of getting witnesses to change their statements to come 280 00:14:20,920 --> 00:14:23,800 Speaker 1: up with things that match the detective's version of events, 281 00:14:24,160 --> 00:14:27,560 Speaker 1: even if it contradicted what the witnesses originally remembered happening. 282 00:14:28,120 --> 00:14:30,400 Speaker 1: And that brings us to Bonnie Huffman and her mother. 283 00:14:31,040 --> 00:14:33,000 Speaker 1: Those were your neighbors that you'd gone to see that 284 00:14:33,120 --> 00:14:36,960 Speaker 1: night to tell them about the murders. During the original investigation, 285 00:14:37,480 --> 00:14:40,720 Speaker 1: Bonnie told Detective Worsima that you'd come by around eight 286 00:14:40,760 --> 00:14:41,280 Speaker 1: pm that. 287 00:14:41,320 --> 00:14:45,040 Speaker 3: Night, right Monnie Hoffman and her mother both said I 288 00:14:45,160 --> 00:14:47,960 Speaker 3: was there between eight and nine that night, because it 289 00:14:48,000 --> 00:14:50,160 Speaker 3: was after the ambulance come to my house that I 290 00:14:50,240 --> 00:14:52,720 Speaker 3: went down there and I told them what was going on. 291 00:14:53,200 --> 00:14:56,480 Speaker 1: However, when the cold case team did their investigation and 292 00:14:56,640 --> 00:14:58,800 Speaker 1: went back to talk to Bonnie Huffman again and again, 293 00:14:59,560 --> 00:15:03,320 Speaker 1: they and to awaken a memory, a new one where 294 00:15:03,400 --> 00:15:05,840 Speaker 1: she said first that she saw you at six fifteen 295 00:15:05,920 --> 00:15:07,800 Speaker 1: and then that she saw you at five point thirty 296 00:15:07,960 --> 00:15:11,040 Speaker 1: that afternoon, so very shortly after, within a half hour 297 00:15:11,080 --> 00:15:13,120 Speaker 1: to an hour of when the murders had happened. 298 00:15:13,520 --> 00:15:16,320 Speaker 3: She said, it was just getting dark when I pulled 299 00:15:16,400 --> 00:15:19,360 Speaker 3: in the yard. Now, if I would have been there 300 00:15:19,440 --> 00:15:22,320 Speaker 3: at that time, and she said, I stayed like twenty minutes. 301 00:15:22,760 --> 00:15:24,320 Speaker 3: Then it would have been totally dark. 302 00:15:24,720 --> 00:15:24,920 Speaker 4: Right. 303 00:15:25,280 --> 00:15:27,120 Speaker 1: The deer haunt ends at dusk, when it's too dark 304 00:15:27,160 --> 00:15:29,680 Speaker 1: to haunt me longer. And that's when the shepherd said 305 00:15:29,720 --> 00:15:32,000 Speaker 1: you and Stan took off from their place. But the 306 00:15:32,000 --> 00:15:33,960 Speaker 1: cold case team came up with a theory of their 307 00:15:34,000 --> 00:15:36,600 Speaker 1: own to account for that. What did they say happened? 308 00:15:36,960 --> 00:15:39,680 Speaker 3: Well, they decided that I had this feeling that there 309 00:15:39,720 --> 00:15:42,720 Speaker 3: was guy's trespassing on my property. I went down there 310 00:15:42,800 --> 00:15:45,640 Speaker 3: in front of them, shot him, stole their deer, and 311 00:15:45,760 --> 00:15:48,760 Speaker 3: drove back to Shepherd's and then left with that deer. 312 00:15:49,160 --> 00:15:52,640 Speaker 3: But now we stopped at Burger King. We had a 313 00:15:52,720 --> 00:15:56,800 Speaker 3: receipt at six forty five. We left. We called Stan's 314 00:15:56,840 --> 00:16:00,040 Speaker 3: wife and there is a receipt showing that if it 315 00:16:00,040 --> 00:16:02,600 Speaker 3: takes me forty minutes to get back there, and then 316 00:16:02,640 --> 00:16:05,640 Speaker 3: it's another time limit to get down to the Burger King. 317 00:16:06,200 --> 00:16:07,040 Speaker 3: It don't make sense. 318 00:16:07,360 --> 00:16:10,040 Speaker 1: Yeah, the cold case team believed that the original investigators 319 00:16:10,200 --> 00:16:14,080 Speaker 1: had not adequately vetted your alibi. Their crucial realization was 320 00:16:14,080 --> 00:16:15,880 Speaker 1: that although you had people who could vouch for the 321 00:16:15,920 --> 00:16:18,480 Speaker 1: fact you were hunting at the Shepherd's farm, those people 322 00:16:18,560 --> 00:16:20,280 Speaker 1: couldn't vouch for the fact that they had seen you 323 00:16:20,320 --> 00:16:22,800 Speaker 1: at the exact moment when the murders happened. Because when 324 00:16:22,800 --> 00:16:25,800 Speaker 1: you're hunting, you're going into the blind, you're out alone. 325 00:16:26,080 --> 00:16:27,840 Speaker 1: So at the time the shots were fired, the time 326 00:16:28,000 --> 00:16:31,000 Speaker 1: Estas and Bennett were killed around four thirty pm, you 327 00:16:31,080 --> 00:16:33,480 Speaker 1: weren't standing next to Stan. You weren't out in the 328 00:16:33,480 --> 00:16:35,720 Speaker 1: woods in a blind waiting for deer. So to the 329 00:16:35,720 --> 00:16:39,000 Speaker 1: Cold Case team, your alibi was not actually an alibi 330 00:16:39,520 --> 00:16:41,800 Speaker 1: in their version of events. You had time to sneak 331 00:16:41,800 --> 00:16:44,240 Speaker 1: away from the shepherd farm, drive back to your property, 332 00:16:44,640 --> 00:16:47,160 Speaker 1: find and shoot the two men at around four thirty pm, 333 00:16:47,440 --> 00:16:49,640 Speaker 1: steal the deer, one of them at Jot, drive back 334 00:16:49,680 --> 00:16:52,320 Speaker 1: to the Shepherd's farm, meet up with Stan, stop at 335 00:16:52,320 --> 00:16:55,040 Speaker 1: burger king, and then drive back to your place. Oh 336 00:16:55,120 --> 00:16:57,400 Speaker 1: in between all of that, after shooting the men and 337 00:16:57,440 --> 00:17:00,000 Speaker 1: stealing their deer, you had time to stop by your 338 00:17:00,040 --> 00:17:02,200 Speaker 1: neighbor's place for a casual twenty minute chat. 339 00:17:02,280 --> 00:17:05,200 Speaker 3: Yep, that's what they say, ludicris. 340 00:17:05,560 --> 00:17:08,920 Speaker 1: So having done that drive, I would have to agree, 341 00:17:09,080 --> 00:17:11,280 Speaker 1: But the Cold Case team didn't see it that way. 342 00:17:11,680 --> 00:17:14,520 Speaker 1: So on December twelfth, two thousand and one, you were 343 00:17:14,560 --> 00:17:17,200 Speaker 1: arrested and take him to jail where you remain until 344 00:17:17,200 --> 00:17:20,480 Speaker 1: the trial started the following June. You had an attorney, 345 00:17:20,640 --> 00:17:22,920 Speaker 1: Bill Fetti. What did he do to help a pair 346 00:17:23,000 --> 00:17:23,560 Speaker 1: for your case? 347 00:17:24,320 --> 00:17:29,840 Speaker 3: He hired a detective whose name was Swabash, and he 348 00:17:29,960 --> 00:17:33,680 Speaker 3: was supposed to get would the original detectives and have 349 00:17:33,880 --> 00:17:38,720 Speaker 3: them testify. Well, then you never did that. Then they 350 00:17:38,760 --> 00:17:42,200 Speaker 3: had asked about other things, and he would make phone 351 00:17:42,240 --> 00:17:46,600 Speaker 3: calls questioning different things, and that's all I knew. 352 00:17:46,960 --> 00:17:49,520 Speaker 1: So the trial began on June twenty sixth, two thousand 353 00:17:49,560 --> 00:17:52,920 Speaker 1: and two. The prosecutor at trial was Scott Brower. Dave, 354 00:17:53,160 --> 00:17:55,120 Speaker 1: can you tell us about the trial? How did things 355 00:17:55,160 --> 00:17:55,760 Speaker 1: go for Jeff? 356 00:17:55,960 --> 00:17:59,359 Speaker 4: First of all, he had a lawyer who, charitably I 357 00:17:59,400 --> 00:18:01,600 Speaker 4: can say is was not very good. By the time 358 00:18:01,640 --> 00:18:03,359 Speaker 4: that we got involved in the case years later, that 359 00:18:03,440 --> 00:18:07,800 Speaker 4: lawyer had been disbarred and wasn't particularly cooperative with us. 360 00:18:08,440 --> 00:18:11,359 Speaker 4: But the biggest problem in the trial was that the 361 00:18:11,440 --> 00:18:16,040 Speaker 4: lawyer had never contacted detectives Weirsima and Ballot who had 362 00:18:16,119 --> 00:18:19,120 Speaker 4: cleared Jeff way back in nineteen ninety nineteen ninety one, 363 00:18:19,880 --> 00:18:22,639 Speaker 4: and so because he hadn't talked to them, he didn't 364 00:18:22,640 --> 00:18:25,120 Speaker 4: have their evidence. He didn't do the obvious thing, which 365 00:18:25,160 --> 00:18:28,800 Speaker 4: is detective you thoroughly investigated this case with your partner, 366 00:18:28,960 --> 00:18:32,720 Speaker 4: what conclusions did you reach about Jeff Titus? And because 367 00:18:32,760 --> 00:18:35,520 Speaker 4: he didn't contact him, he also wasn't able to use 368 00:18:35,960 --> 00:18:39,359 Speaker 4: a workaround for the Shepherds, both of whom were supposedly 369 00:18:39,440 --> 00:18:41,800 Speaker 4: unavailable to testify because of their mental state. 370 00:18:42,200 --> 00:18:44,919 Speaker 3: They said that the Shepherds had dementia, but it was 371 00:18:45,000 --> 00:18:48,200 Speaker 3: only him, not her. She was sharp as a whip 372 00:18:48,480 --> 00:18:51,720 Speaker 3: and she could have testified, but she was never called. 373 00:18:52,040 --> 00:18:55,840 Speaker 4: But both Shepherds had written out and signed a statement 374 00:18:56,359 --> 00:18:59,760 Speaker 4: just a few weeks after the killings confirming that Jeff 375 00:18:59,840 --> 00:19:03,040 Speaker 4: was there, and that statement should have been able to 376 00:19:03,040 --> 00:19:05,879 Speaker 4: come in through the testimony of the detectives who took it. 377 00:19:05,920 --> 00:19:11,560 Speaker 4: But again, because Jeff's very poor defense attorney didn't even 378 00:19:11,680 --> 00:19:14,040 Speaker 4: interview the detectives who had cleared his client in the 379 00:19:14,040 --> 00:19:16,200 Speaker 4: first place, the jury never heard about any of that. 380 00:19:16,320 --> 00:19:18,560 Speaker 4: But not only had they not been interviewed by Jeff's 381 00:19:18,560 --> 00:19:20,720 Speaker 4: defense layer, they hadn't even been interviewed by the. 382 00:19:20,600 --> 00:19:21,560 Speaker 2: Cold case team. 383 00:19:21,880 --> 00:19:24,040 Speaker 4: So the two guys who had done the initial investigation 384 00:19:24,200 --> 00:19:27,640 Speaker 4: clearing Jeff were just left out in the wilderness while 385 00:19:27,720 --> 00:19:30,600 Speaker 4: this train went through the station and in our opinion, 386 00:19:30,600 --> 00:19:31,359 Speaker 4: went off the rails. 387 00:19:32,800 --> 00:19:35,440 Speaker 1: So the only alibi witness the jury heard from and 388 00:19:35,480 --> 00:19:40,119 Speaker 1: Jeff's defense was Stan, and Stan, unfortunately was not the 389 00:19:40,160 --> 00:19:42,320 Speaker 1: best of witnesses. 390 00:19:42,560 --> 00:19:43,200 Speaker 3: Made it worse. 391 00:19:43,560 --> 00:19:46,480 Speaker 4: Stan was a very problematic witness. And from the transcript 392 00:19:46,520 --> 00:19:48,960 Speaker 4: it sounds like, you know, he doesn't want to cooperate, 393 00:19:49,000 --> 00:19:53,200 Speaker 4: he wants to nitpick questions. And I met Stan on 394 00:19:53,240 --> 00:19:55,679 Speaker 4: a couple of occasions, and that's just the way he was, 395 00:19:55,720 --> 00:19:57,639 Speaker 4: That's the way he talked. But I think to the 396 00:19:57,720 --> 00:20:00,760 Speaker 4: jurors who were there, it comes across like you hiding something. 397 00:20:01,200 --> 00:20:04,880 Speaker 4: And so it was just a memorably bad alibi witness. 398 00:20:05,160 --> 00:20:07,600 Speaker 1: And then of course Jeff's alibi was under mind by 399 00:20:07,640 --> 00:20:11,400 Speaker 1: Bonnie Huffman's testimony or as Detective Workma would say, her 400 00:20:11,520 --> 00:20:14,000 Speaker 1: awakened memory that Jeff had been by to see her 401 00:20:14,040 --> 00:20:15,600 Speaker 1: at around five thirty that day. 402 00:20:15,920 --> 00:20:16,120 Speaker 3: Right. 403 00:20:16,200 --> 00:20:19,760 Speaker 4: And again that's an area where the defense lawyer's failure 404 00:20:19,800 --> 00:20:24,040 Speaker 4: to even interview detectives Weirsima and Ballot was fatal, because 405 00:20:24,480 --> 00:20:26,960 Speaker 4: had he interviewed them, he would have learned that they 406 00:20:27,000 --> 00:20:30,440 Speaker 4: spoke with Bonnie Huffman and her mother just days after 407 00:20:30,480 --> 00:20:33,560 Speaker 4: the killings. And that they told the detectives that the 408 00:20:33,600 --> 00:20:38,160 Speaker 4: conversation with Jeff happened around eight pm, so hours hours 409 00:20:38,200 --> 00:20:42,240 Speaker 4: after the killing. But because he didn't even interview those detectives, 410 00:20:42,480 --> 00:20:46,920 Speaker 4: Bonnie's changed testimony that the conversation happened hours earlier, as 411 00:20:46,960 --> 00:20:50,320 Speaker 4: early as five point fifteen was unrebutted other than the 412 00:20:50,320 --> 00:20:53,240 Speaker 4: fact that her mother testified to the original timeline. But 413 00:20:53,560 --> 00:20:56,560 Speaker 4: even with that piece of information, the defense lawyer's performance 414 00:20:56,640 --> 00:21:00,000 Speaker 4: was simply lousy. He didn't make a big deal about 415 00:21:00,080 --> 00:21:02,440 Speaker 4: out how they had given a prior statement at eight 416 00:21:02,440 --> 00:21:05,520 Speaker 4: pm that the mom was still saying it was eight pm. 417 00:21:05,760 --> 00:21:09,080 Speaker 2: He just let it go. Just a atrocious job. 418 00:21:09,280 --> 00:21:11,879 Speaker 1: There was also the prosecution's theory that Jeff had wiped 419 00:21:11,880 --> 00:21:14,120 Speaker 1: the shot unclean when he found it in the woods. 420 00:21:14,760 --> 00:21:16,720 Speaker 1: Their story, of course, is that Jeff did not just 421 00:21:16,800 --> 00:21:18,800 Speaker 1: find it in the woods. Rather, he had taken it 422 00:21:18,840 --> 00:21:20,719 Speaker 1: from the crime scene after comuting the murders, and then 423 00:21:20,760 --> 00:21:23,000 Speaker 1: wiped all the finger prints off and then pretended to 424 00:21:23,040 --> 00:21:25,840 Speaker 1: find it. They also had a seemingly endless stream of 425 00:21:25,880 --> 00:21:28,639 Speaker 1: Jeff's coworkers who came in to say they'd overheard Jeff 426 00:21:28,760 --> 00:21:30,480 Speaker 1: or talk to Jeff about the murders, and he'd said 427 00:21:30,480 --> 00:21:33,840 Speaker 1: things that were allegedly incriminating or weird, just things that 428 00:21:33,880 --> 00:21:35,880 Speaker 1: Jeff would often say struck them the wrong way. 429 00:21:36,200 --> 00:21:37,960 Speaker 2: No, I think Jeff will admit he's a talker. 430 00:21:38,240 --> 00:21:40,399 Speaker 4: And two of the things Jeff was very interested in 431 00:21:40,800 --> 00:21:44,320 Speaker 4: is hunting, so he often talked about hunting and killing animals, 432 00:21:44,359 --> 00:21:47,640 Speaker 4: and he often talked about the murders that had happened 433 00:21:47,680 --> 00:21:50,600 Speaker 4: near his property line and how they remained unsolved. And 434 00:21:50,920 --> 00:21:53,480 Speaker 4: over the years, in the minds of the cold case team, 435 00:21:53,560 --> 00:21:56,840 Speaker 4: that became evidence that he'd committed the crime because you 436 00:21:56,840 --> 00:21:58,480 Speaker 4: know who else but the killer would like to talk 437 00:21:58,520 --> 00:22:01,639 Speaker 4: about it. And then there were witnesses who claimed to 438 00:22:01,680 --> 00:22:05,359 Speaker 4: have had confrontations with Jeff after they had trespassed onto 439 00:22:05,400 --> 00:22:07,840 Speaker 4: his property from the game area, and that was that 440 00:22:07,920 --> 00:22:10,880 Speaker 4: was pretty much the prosecution's entire case was he had 441 00:22:10,920 --> 00:22:15,480 Speaker 4: confronted trespassers before he talked about the killings. And Bonnie 442 00:22:15,520 --> 00:22:18,520 Speaker 4: Hoffman now claiming that he was actually in the vicinity 443 00:22:18,560 --> 00:22:19,840 Speaker 4: around five point fifteen. 444 00:22:20,160 --> 00:22:23,159 Speaker 1: So Bill Fetti, jess attorney, was really just phoning it 445 00:22:23,200 --> 00:22:26,840 Speaker 1: in apparently. But he did raise one significant issue at trial, 446 00:22:27,440 --> 00:22:30,040 Speaker 1: something that had it been fully explored by the original 447 00:22:30,080 --> 00:22:32,959 Speaker 1: investigators might have actually brought this case to a close 448 00:22:33,040 --> 00:22:36,359 Speaker 1: back in nineteen ninety because there was an alternate suspect 449 00:22:36,400 --> 00:22:36,879 Speaker 1: in the case. 450 00:22:37,280 --> 00:22:40,879 Speaker 4: Yeah, and that's the guy who was seen with his 451 00:22:41,000 --> 00:22:43,679 Speaker 4: car stuck in a ditch near the game area not 452 00:22:43,840 --> 00:22:46,320 Speaker 4: long after the shots were heard. It turned out to 453 00:22:46,359 --> 00:22:49,040 Speaker 4: be the fatal shots that killed Mistersses and mister Bennett. 454 00:22:49,560 --> 00:22:49,760 Speaker 3: Right. 455 00:22:49,880 --> 00:22:52,199 Speaker 1: So, this man was seen with his car stuck in 456 00:22:52,240 --> 00:22:54,879 Speaker 1: a ditch by a number of people, including a neighbor 457 00:22:54,880 --> 00:22:57,600 Speaker 1: of Jeff's named Helen Knopf's and her son. When they 458 00:22:57,600 --> 00:22:59,800 Speaker 1: saw the car stuck there, they'd stopped and offered a call, 459 00:23:00,520 --> 00:23:02,600 Speaker 1: but he turned them down, saying he didn't need any 460 00:23:02,600 --> 00:23:05,280 Speaker 1: help and that he'd get his car out somehow. They 461 00:23:05,320 --> 00:23:07,760 Speaker 1: would describe this man to the police as being nervous 462 00:23:07,760 --> 00:23:10,399 Speaker 1: and sweaty. The car, they said, was a blue or 463 00:23:10,440 --> 00:23:13,440 Speaker 1: black hatchback similar to a Chevy Manza, and the guy 464 00:23:13,480 --> 00:23:16,119 Speaker 1: said the car belong to his wife. A composite sketch 465 00:23:16,200 --> 00:23:18,400 Speaker 1: of this ditch guy, as we took to calling him, 466 00:23:18,840 --> 00:23:21,920 Speaker 1: was drawn based on their descriptions. It shows a white man, 467 00:23:22,119 --> 00:23:25,359 Speaker 1: maybe in his thirties, wearing aviator glasses and an orange 468 00:23:25,359 --> 00:23:28,439 Speaker 1: stocking cap as if he'd been not hunting. Police posted 469 00:23:28,440 --> 00:23:30,600 Speaker 1: the picture and even got some calls about it, but 470 00:23:30,840 --> 00:23:33,800 Speaker 1: they weren't able to locate ditch guy, and eventually the 471 00:23:33,880 --> 00:23:34,640 Speaker 1: lead was dropped. 472 00:23:34,840 --> 00:23:38,040 Speaker 4: But that was an obvious alternative suspect, somebody who just 473 00:23:38,040 --> 00:23:40,280 Speaker 4: committed the murders and was driving away at a high 474 00:23:40,320 --> 00:23:42,920 Speaker 4: rated speed and failed to make a curve and went 475 00:23:42,960 --> 00:23:46,720 Speaker 4: into the ditch. At trial, Jeff's lawyer had a theory 476 00:23:46,800 --> 00:23:49,200 Speaker 4: as to who the guy and the ditch might have been, 477 00:23:49,440 --> 00:23:51,960 Speaker 4: but really didn't have any evidence to back it up, so. 478 00:23:51,880 --> 00:23:54,960 Speaker 1: There wasn't much there to sway the jury. Nope, they 479 00:23:54,960 --> 00:23:56,679 Speaker 1: did deliberate though, for several days. 480 00:23:57,480 --> 00:24:01,480 Speaker 3: Finally they come back and said that I was found guilty, 481 00:24:01,560 --> 00:24:07,919 Speaker 3: and I was in a state of shock. I couldn't 482 00:24:07,960 --> 00:24:12,320 Speaker 3: believe it. I looked at my family and they couldn't 483 00:24:12,320 --> 00:24:17,440 Speaker 3: believe it. And then I was gone and taken back 484 00:24:17,480 --> 00:24:20,719 Speaker 3: to the jail. And then three days later I was 485 00:24:20,720 --> 00:24:35,040 Speaker 3: in prison. I was sentenced to life in prison with 486 00:24:35,200 --> 00:24:41,640 Speaker 3: no parole, and I was devastated. I have always been 487 00:24:41,640 --> 00:24:45,919 Speaker 3: an honest and law abiding type person. I mean, like 488 00:24:45,960 --> 00:24:47,920 Speaker 3: I said, I was a police officer. I garried to 489 00:24:48,000 --> 00:24:51,119 Speaker 3: president and everything, and then turnaround and be said that 490 00:24:51,240 --> 00:24:56,120 Speaker 3: I was guilty of something I didn't do. It's horrible. 491 00:24:57,240 --> 00:25:01,760 Speaker 3: I felt like I was violated. And then, like I say, 492 00:25:02,320 --> 00:25:06,280 Speaker 3: I went to prison and that was really a culture shock. 493 00:25:07,560 --> 00:25:09,159 Speaker 1: What did you do while you were in prison? To 494 00:25:09,160 --> 00:25:10,639 Speaker 1: survive and to pass the time? 495 00:25:11,640 --> 00:25:16,280 Speaker 3: I worked as a tutor. First, I had my college degree, 496 00:25:16,359 --> 00:25:19,000 Speaker 3: so I was teaching people how to do stuff, and 497 00:25:19,080 --> 00:25:23,679 Speaker 3: I taught basic aged. Then I took a horticulture course, 498 00:25:24,240 --> 00:25:26,840 Speaker 3: did it in a month and became a tutor. When 499 00:25:26,880 --> 00:25:30,200 Speaker 3: I left there, I was starting to make greeting cards. 500 00:25:31,080 --> 00:25:34,280 Speaker 3: I had wildlife cards, which was my fortepe because I 501 00:25:34,320 --> 00:25:38,159 Speaker 3: loved the outdoors. I made religious ones, I had thinking 502 00:25:38,240 --> 00:25:42,359 Speaker 3: of use, I had birthday sympathy, but I made all kinds. 503 00:25:42,640 --> 00:25:45,440 Speaker 3: I would be doing that every day to pass the time. 504 00:25:46,359 --> 00:25:48,159 Speaker 3: I sold them for a buck and a half to 505 00:25:48,160 --> 00:25:50,919 Speaker 3: two dollars the inmates, because we don't make much money 506 00:25:51,440 --> 00:25:53,840 Speaker 3: seventy four cents a day, a dollar fourteen a day, 507 00:25:53,880 --> 00:25:57,440 Speaker 3: something like that. To be a tutor or a custodio 508 00:25:57,680 --> 00:25:58,480 Speaker 3: or work in a child. 509 00:25:59,240 --> 00:26:01,399 Speaker 1: And during that time, you were also working on your 510 00:26:01,400 --> 00:26:04,240 Speaker 1: post conviction appeals with an attorney named Peter Van Hoague. 511 00:26:04,720 --> 00:26:07,439 Speaker 1: You filed a habeas petition, which unfortunately was denied by 512 00:26:07,480 --> 00:26:10,199 Speaker 1: a federal district court and then again in the Sixth Circuit, 513 00:26:10,560 --> 00:26:14,240 Speaker 1: and then the Michigan Innocence Clinic got involved as well. Dave, 514 00:26:14,520 --> 00:26:15,879 Speaker 1: how'd you hear about Jeff's case? 515 00:26:16,200 --> 00:26:19,080 Speaker 4: When I first heard of the case was in I 516 00:26:19,080 --> 00:26:23,080 Speaker 4: believe late twenty eleven, possibly very early twenty twelve, when 517 00:26:23,200 --> 00:26:27,159 Speaker 4: detectives Weirsima and Ballot contacted me and told me that 518 00:26:27,200 --> 00:26:30,440 Speaker 4: there was a double murder in Kalamazoo County and that 519 00:26:30,520 --> 00:26:33,280 Speaker 4: the wrong man was in prison and they knew the 520 00:26:33,280 --> 00:26:35,520 Speaker 4: wrong man was in prisoned because they had cleared him. 521 00:26:35,640 --> 00:26:38,439 Speaker 1: And when Jeff was convicted, they were blown away and 522 00:26:38,480 --> 00:26:41,240 Speaker 1: they became Jeff's advocates because they knew the wrong man 523 00:26:41,320 --> 00:26:42,080 Speaker 1: had been convicted. 524 00:26:42,600 --> 00:26:45,960 Speaker 4: So, of course we started digging into it, and within 525 00:26:46,040 --> 00:26:48,520 Speaker 4: a fairly short time we decided to take the case. 526 00:26:48,680 --> 00:26:50,640 Speaker 4: And by the time we took it, we had a 527 00:26:50,760 --> 00:26:55,200 Speaker 4: third decorated veteran officer on board on our side, Rich Madison, 528 00:26:55,359 --> 00:26:57,639 Speaker 4: who was a member of the cold case team, and 529 00:26:57,680 --> 00:27:01,639 Speaker 4: it turns out he was a dissenter and he believed 530 00:27:02,000 --> 00:27:05,600 Speaker 4: the case against Jeff made no sense, and because he 531 00:27:05,680 --> 00:27:09,400 Speaker 4: didn't go along, he was actually removed from the Cold 532 00:27:09,400 --> 00:27:11,560 Speaker 4: Case team, at least for this case. They didn't want 533 00:27:11,560 --> 00:27:14,800 Speaker 4: anybody who was going to challenge their preconceived notions, and 534 00:27:14,880 --> 00:27:17,800 Speaker 4: so Rich had some information that was also very helpful 535 00:27:17,840 --> 00:27:21,359 Speaker 4: for us. So we filed a motion for relief from 536 00:27:21,440 --> 00:27:23,800 Speaker 4: judgment better known as a sixty five hundred motion here 537 00:27:23,800 --> 00:27:26,080 Speaker 4: at Michigan, and that's where we alleged a host of 538 00:27:26,080 --> 00:27:29,800 Speaker 4: ineffective assistants claims for failing to interview the original detectives 539 00:27:30,040 --> 00:27:32,600 Speaker 4: and also a Brady claim, which is a claim based 540 00:27:32,600 --> 00:27:35,880 Speaker 4: on failure to turn over evidence, because nobody turned over 541 00:27:35,920 --> 00:27:39,600 Speaker 4: to the defense the evidence about Rich Madison, the descending 542 00:27:39,640 --> 00:27:41,720 Speaker 4: member of the Cold Case team, and how he had 543 00:27:41,760 --> 00:27:44,640 Speaker 4: done some analysis showing that the Cold Case team sery 544 00:27:44,680 --> 00:27:47,679 Speaker 4: didn't make any sense, but that wasn't turned over, and 545 00:27:47,760 --> 00:27:50,399 Speaker 4: so the centerpiece of our theory in that post conviction 546 00:27:50,560 --> 00:27:54,439 Speaker 4: motion was that trial council was ineffective for failing to 547 00:27:54,520 --> 00:27:58,280 Speaker 4: interview Weirsima in ballot and then call them as witnesses 548 00:27:58,840 --> 00:28:01,040 Speaker 4: to make up for the fact that the Shepherds allegedly 549 00:28:01,080 --> 00:28:04,840 Speaker 4: couldn't be called, and to explain how Bonnie Huffmann's story 550 00:28:05,320 --> 00:28:08,000 Speaker 4: at trial about the timing of her encounter with Jeff 551 00:28:08,080 --> 00:28:10,640 Speaker 4: was completely inconsistent with what she and her mother had 552 00:28:10,640 --> 00:28:11,800 Speaker 4: told the police before. 553 00:28:12,440 --> 00:28:15,000 Speaker 1: And then there was the matter of Jeff finding the gun, 554 00:28:15,160 --> 00:28:17,480 Speaker 1: which the prosecution had also brought up a trial. 555 00:28:17,840 --> 00:28:21,480 Speaker 4: The prosecution made a big deal about Jeff finding the gun, 556 00:28:21,720 --> 00:28:23,520 Speaker 4: and they said that there's no way that that gun 557 00:28:23,640 --> 00:28:26,320 Speaker 4: was there before Jeff found it, because the police had 558 00:28:26,359 --> 00:28:29,959 Speaker 4: done this grid search. Well, Detective Weirsomuch showed us exactly 559 00:28:30,000 --> 00:28:32,439 Speaker 4: where the gun was found, exactly where the bodies were found, 560 00:28:32,640 --> 00:28:35,439 Speaker 4: and it was well more than one hundred feet away, 561 00:28:35,760 --> 00:28:37,600 Speaker 4: and so the grid search wouldn't have found it. 562 00:28:37,920 --> 00:28:40,360 Speaker 1: So just imagine if the jury had been able to 563 00:28:40,400 --> 00:28:43,240 Speaker 1: hear three different detectives up there, two of them saying 564 00:28:43,280 --> 00:28:45,640 Speaker 1: that they'd investigated Jeff and cleared him back in nineteen 565 00:28:45,720 --> 00:28:48,560 Speaker 1: ninety and a third from the cold case unit saying 566 00:28:48,560 --> 00:28:50,080 Speaker 1: that his team had gotten it wrong. 567 00:28:50,680 --> 00:28:52,920 Speaker 2: The impact of that, I think would have been incalculable. 568 00:28:53,040 --> 00:28:54,680 Speaker 4: And so we had the evident here hearing in front 569 00:28:54,720 --> 00:28:56,480 Speaker 4: of the judge, and we presented all three of those 570 00:28:56,520 --> 00:29:00,120 Speaker 4: decorated police veterans, and yet the judge said no, And 571 00:29:00,160 --> 00:29:02,680 Speaker 4: his reasoning was that none of it would make a 572 00:29:02,680 --> 00:29:05,240 Speaker 4: difference because of all of those people at the VA 573 00:29:05,360 --> 00:29:07,640 Speaker 4: Hospital who heard Jeff talk about the crime. I mean 574 00:29:07,680 --> 00:29:09,920 Speaker 4: as if, as if the fact that Jeff talked about 575 00:29:09,920 --> 00:29:12,280 Speaker 4: the crime without actually admitting he did it to all 576 00:29:12,320 --> 00:29:15,000 Speaker 4: of these people at the VA hospital somehow overcame all 577 00:29:15,040 --> 00:29:15,840 Speaker 4: of that. 578 00:29:15,520 --> 00:29:16,880 Speaker 2: But that was the judge's ruling. 579 00:29:17,320 --> 00:29:19,840 Speaker 1: But then in twenty twenty, when I was investigating this 580 00:29:19,920 --> 00:29:22,440 Speaker 1: case with Sinda and Kevin, we learned of someone who'd 581 00:29:22,480 --> 00:29:24,880 Speaker 1: actually been a suspect back in nineteen ninety three, a 582 00:29:24,920 --> 00:29:28,720 Speaker 1: guy named Thomas Dillon from Ohio. Dave, do you remember 583 00:29:28,760 --> 00:29:29,880 Speaker 1: when I called you about him? 584 00:29:30,280 --> 00:29:30,520 Speaker 4: Yeah? 585 00:29:30,560 --> 00:29:32,920 Speaker 2: I do. It came completely out of the blue. 586 00:29:32,960 --> 00:29:34,560 Speaker 4: You called me and asked if I'd heard of a 587 00:29:34,560 --> 00:29:38,400 Speaker 4: guy named Thomas Dillon, and I said, no, should I have? 588 00:29:38,760 --> 00:29:42,560 Speaker 4: And you proceeded to tell me about his work in Ohio, 589 00:29:42,720 --> 00:29:45,200 Speaker 4: and I couldn't believe it. I did a search of 590 00:29:45,280 --> 00:29:48,760 Speaker 4: the transcript of Jeff's trial and confirmed that the name 591 00:29:48,880 --> 00:29:51,480 Speaker 4: Thomas Dillon had never come up once during his trial. 592 00:29:51,760 --> 00:29:54,840 Speaker 1: That's right. Thomas Dillon, as we learned, was a serial 593 00:29:54,960 --> 00:29:59,560 Speaker 1: killer with a very specific target. He hunted hunters. In fact, 594 00:29:59,720 --> 00:30:02,080 Speaker 1: he'd killed one hunter the week before the Fulton State 595 00:30:02,120 --> 00:30:05,000 Speaker 1: Game Area shootings, and he'd killed another the week after. 596 00:30:05,480 --> 00:30:08,040 Speaker 1: He was ultimately convicted in nineteen eighty three of killing 597 00:30:08,080 --> 00:30:11,240 Speaker 1: five hunters in Ohio, but he was also a suspect 598 00:30:11,280 --> 00:30:14,280 Speaker 1: in a number of other killings and other states, including 599 00:30:14,320 --> 00:30:17,160 Speaker 1: in the murder of Augustus and Jim Bennett. I think 600 00:30:17,200 --> 00:30:19,000 Speaker 1: the moment that stands out to me the most from 601 00:30:19,000 --> 00:30:20,960 Speaker 1: this case is the moment that I first saw a 602 00:30:21,000 --> 00:30:24,440 Speaker 1: picture of Thomas Dillon. He is an absolute dead ringer 603 00:30:24,440 --> 00:30:26,560 Speaker 1: for the composite sketch that was prepared by the two 604 00:30:26,600 --> 00:30:28,280 Speaker 1: eye witnesses who saw ditch guy. 605 00:30:28,840 --> 00:30:29,680 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's stunning. 606 00:30:30,160 --> 00:30:32,600 Speaker 4: When we saw the side by side comparison of a 607 00:30:32,640 --> 00:30:36,000 Speaker 4: photo of Dylan after he was arrested with drawings of 608 00:30:36,080 --> 00:30:38,080 Speaker 4: the man in the ditch, it was a dead ringer. 609 00:30:38,640 --> 00:30:41,760 Speaker 1: And here's where things get really weird. In nineteen eighty three, 610 00:30:42,200 --> 00:30:45,400 Speaker 1: not long after Dylan was arrested, Detective Warsma had actually 611 00:30:45,440 --> 00:30:47,920 Speaker 1: brought Helen Nos and her son down to Ohio to 612 00:30:48,000 --> 00:30:51,360 Speaker 1: view a lineup which included Dylan. They were shown the 613 00:30:51,400 --> 00:30:54,120 Speaker 1: line up separately and told that if they recognized the 614 00:30:54,120 --> 00:30:56,040 Speaker 1: man from the ditch to write the number of that 615 00:30:56,080 --> 00:30:58,200 Speaker 1: man down on a piece of paper and hand it over, 616 00:30:58,720 --> 00:31:01,160 Speaker 1: which they both did, and which Sinda and I learned 617 00:31:01,200 --> 00:31:03,680 Speaker 1: from those Ohio files is that Helen and her son 618 00:31:03,920 --> 00:31:06,760 Speaker 1: had both id Thomas Dillon as the ditch guy. But 619 00:31:07,120 --> 00:31:10,040 Speaker 1: because this fact was never revealed to the Michigan authorities, 620 00:31:10,280 --> 00:31:12,240 Speaker 1: where Seema thought there was nothing more to pursue there. 621 00:31:12,680 --> 00:31:15,480 Speaker 1: In fact, he'd told the Ohio authorities, Hey, we just 622 00:31:15,480 --> 00:31:17,840 Speaker 1: want to know if this guy was involved. We won't prosecute, 623 00:31:17,920 --> 00:31:20,240 Speaker 1: we just want to know who did this, and Ohio 624 00:31:20,280 --> 00:31:23,800 Speaker 1: refused to cooperate with them. And there's more. As we 625 00:31:23,840 --> 00:31:26,760 Speaker 1: went on, we discovered that Dylan's wife owned a car 626 00:31:26,880 --> 00:31:30,160 Speaker 1: that was a small gray Hatchback. In fact, it was 627 00:31:30,240 --> 00:31:33,320 Speaker 1: almost exactly the car that the witnesses had described and 628 00:31:33,520 --> 00:31:35,680 Speaker 1: which the ditch guy had said was his wife's car. 629 00:31:36,280 --> 00:31:38,400 Speaker 1: Dylan had also used that car to commit some of 630 00:31:38,440 --> 00:31:41,880 Speaker 1: his murders. We also learned that the day before the murders, 631 00:31:42,080 --> 00:31:45,760 Speaker 1: Dylan had borrowed two shotguns from two different coworkers. When 632 00:31:45,800 --> 00:31:49,000 Speaker 1: he'd returned them the following week, he told both coworkers 633 00:31:49,040 --> 00:31:50,920 Speaker 1: that he'd shot a deer with their gun. 634 00:31:51,240 --> 00:31:54,440 Speaker 4: And the two guys in the game area were killed 635 00:31:54,440 --> 00:31:57,360 Speaker 4: with apparently two different types of shotgun ammunition. 636 00:31:57,680 --> 00:32:00,520 Speaker 1: I also found some notes showing that after dylan arrest, 637 00:32:00,840 --> 00:32:03,520 Speaker 1: he'd been bragging to his cellmate Mike Chappelle about his 638 00:32:03,560 --> 00:32:06,240 Speaker 1: life of crime and the people he'd killed, and he 639 00:32:06,320 --> 00:32:08,760 Speaker 1: even told him about what he called his double header, 640 00:32:09,000 --> 00:32:11,720 Speaker 1: where he'd killed two hunters and one event. But when 641 00:32:11,760 --> 00:32:14,200 Speaker 1: Chappelle told the authorities what Dylan had said to him, 642 00:32:14,520 --> 00:32:17,120 Speaker 1: they did nothing. One of the reasons for that seems 643 00:32:17,160 --> 00:32:19,680 Speaker 1: to have been that the FBI had developed a profile 644 00:32:19,880 --> 00:32:22,600 Speaker 1: that said Dylan would never kill two people at once 645 00:32:22,840 --> 00:32:25,520 Speaker 1: because he was too much of a coward. So, despite 646 00:32:25,520 --> 00:32:28,320 Speaker 1: what Schappelle told them about the confession, the authorities in 647 00:32:28,360 --> 00:32:31,719 Speaker 1: Ohio ruled Dylan out in this case. In addition to that, 648 00:32:32,160 --> 00:32:34,600 Speaker 1: Dylan had an alibi, or so they thought. 649 00:32:35,160 --> 00:32:38,280 Speaker 4: So I went to the Kalamazoo County Sheriff's Department and 650 00:32:38,480 --> 00:32:41,479 Speaker 4: searched the entire file for the sson be At killings, 651 00:32:41,480 --> 00:32:44,160 Speaker 4: and I spent hours and hours going through it. Very 652 00:32:44,160 --> 00:32:45,719 Speaker 4: near the end of my search, I found a thin, 653 00:32:45,760 --> 00:32:48,600 Speaker 4: little manila envelope in the back of one of these 654 00:32:48,960 --> 00:32:49,840 Speaker 4: giant red ropes. 655 00:32:49,960 --> 00:32:51,360 Speaker 2: Somebody written serial killer on. 656 00:32:51,320 --> 00:32:54,280 Speaker 4: It, and it had about thirty pages of materials, mostly 657 00:32:54,360 --> 00:32:58,600 Speaker 4: the materials that we've already discussed, the identification procedures in Ohio, 658 00:32:58,840 --> 00:33:02,640 Speaker 4: which Nobsiner saying picked him out, the borrowed shotguns, the 659 00:33:02,680 --> 00:33:04,600 Speaker 4: description of the wife's car to. 660 00:33:04,560 --> 00:33:05,360 Speaker 2: Sketch, all of that. 661 00:33:05,760 --> 00:33:09,560 Speaker 4: But it also had math calculations, and it turns out 662 00:33:09,560 --> 00:33:13,960 Speaker 4: that that morning of November seventeenth, nineteen ninety, Dylan had 663 00:33:14,000 --> 00:33:18,280 Speaker 4: gone hunting in Revenna, Ohio, on a piece of private property, 664 00:33:18,640 --> 00:33:21,360 Speaker 4: and he got a deer that morning, and then he 665 00:33:21,520 --> 00:33:25,240 Speaker 4: checked out of the game reserve very shortly after noon 666 00:33:25,880 --> 00:33:29,080 Speaker 4: with his deer. And there were calculations that had been 667 00:33:29,120 --> 00:33:31,440 Speaker 4: done by the police that purported to show that Dylan 668 00:33:31,480 --> 00:33:34,240 Speaker 4: couldn't have made it from Revenna to the Fulton Game 669 00:33:34,280 --> 00:33:37,200 Speaker 4: area in time to kill ss and Bennett late in 670 00:33:37,200 --> 00:33:41,440 Speaker 4: the afternoon. But those calculations were wrong in several respects. 671 00:33:41,480 --> 00:33:43,440 Speaker 4: First of all, what they actually calculated was how long 672 00:33:43,480 --> 00:33:45,640 Speaker 4: it would have taken to drive to Kalama Zoo. They 673 00:33:45,680 --> 00:33:48,880 Speaker 4: also assumed that he didn't leave the Revenna Game area 674 00:33:49,000 --> 00:33:53,080 Speaker 4: until well after he'd actually checked out, And they also 675 00:33:53,120 --> 00:33:55,640 Speaker 4: assumed that he drives scrupulously within the speed limit the 676 00:33:55,720 --> 00:33:58,280 Speaker 4: entire time, which nobody in the Midwest does. And so 677 00:33:58,400 --> 00:34:01,360 Speaker 4: if you took away those silk assumptions and just entered 678 00:34:01,360 --> 00:34:03,719 Speaker 4: in how long does it take to get from the 679 00:34:03,800 --> 00:34:07,920 Speaker 4: Ravenna Grounds to the Fulton Game area using Google Maps, 680 00:34:08,040 --> 00:34:09,960 Speaker 4: he could have made it easily with almost an hour 681 00:34:10,040 --> 00:34:12,560 Speaker 4: to spare, without driving so fast that he would have 682 00:34:12,560 --> 00:34:14,120 Speaker 4: attracted the attention of the police. 683 00:34:14,680 --> 00:34:17,840 Speaker 1: So first the cold case detectives concocted a near impossible 684 00:34:17,920 --> 00:34:20,960 Speaker 1: round trip journey to prove Jeff guilty, and then they 685 00:34:20,960 --> 00:34:23,760 Speaker 1: came up with an equally ridiculous math equation to clear 686 00:34:23,840 --> 00:34:27,439 Speaker 1: Thomas Dillon of the murders. So right around the time 687 00:34:27,560 --> 00:34:30,840 Speaker 1: we started our investigation, there was also a new development 688 00:34:30,920 --> 00:34:35,080 Speaker 1: in Michigan. The Attorney General created a statewide conviction integrity unit, 689 00:34:35,360 --> 00:34:38,040 Speaker 1: headed up by a former criminal defense attorney, Robin Frankel. 690 00:34:38,760 --> 00:34:42,239 Speaker 4: So I immediately contacted Robin to tell her about two 691 00:34:42,280 --> 00:34:44,680 Speaker 4: of our cases in particular, and Jess was one of 692 00:34:44,719 --> 00:34:48,600 Speaker 4: those cases. And then eventually Robin got some investigators, and 693 00:34:48,600 --> 00:34:51,400 Speaker 4: the investigators started going out and interviewing witnesses, and then 694 00:34:51,400 --> 00:34:55,160 Speaker 4: they interviewed Jeff himself so the whole process took years 695 00:34:55,480 --> 00:34:59,200 Speaker 4: of investigation and patients. But this whole time we had 696 00:34:59,200 --> 00:35:02,960 Speaker 4: a habeas but pending, and so we agreed with the 697 00:35:03,000 --> 00:35:06,439 Speaker 4: conviction integer unit to put the habeas on hold while 698 00:35:06,440 --> 00:35:10,560 Speaker 4: the conviction Integrity Unit did its thing. So after years 699 00:35:10,600 --> 00:35:15,319 Speaker 4: of investigating and then waiting, they finally got to the 700 00:35:15,400 --> 00:35:19,280 Speaker 4: point where they agreed that the conviction had to be vacated, 701 00:35:19,719 --> 00:35:24,360 Speaker 4: and so we drafted a stipulated order for the federal 702 00:35:24,440 --> 00:35:27,959 Speaker 4: judge to sign granting the habeas corpus petition, so Jeff 703 00:35:28,000 --> 00:35:30,400 Speaker 4: would be released and the conviction would be vacated and 704 00:35:30,440 --> 00:35:31,960 Speaker 4: the sentence would also be vacated. 705 00:35:32,160 --> 00:35:34,960 Speaker 1: And then finally in February of twenty twenty. 706 00:35:34,719 --> 00:35:40,440 Speaker 3: Three, February sixteenth, the fifteenth was my seventy first birthday. 707 00:35:40,800 --> 00:35:46,120 Speaker 3: The next day the students I called them and they said, Jeff, 708 00:35:46,640 --> 00:35:49,680 Speaker 3: we're all together, all three students, as they said they 709 00:35:49,680 --> 00:35:51,960 Speaker 3: would be. And I said, are you telling me you 710 00:35:52,040 --> 00:35:57,360 Speaker 3: got good hoops? And they said yes, And then I 711 00:35:57,480 --> 00:36:00,640 Speaker 3: started bawling, like I'm doing now, and. 712 00:36:00,600 --> 00:36:03,120 Speaker 1: I know your release got delayed a few more days. Unfortunately, 713 00:36:03,480 --> 00:36:05,759 Speaker 1: there was an ice storm among other things. But on 714 00:36:05,760 --> 00:36:09,600 Speaker 1: that Friday morning, the twenty fourth of February. What finally happened. 715 00:36:10,320 --> 00:36:13,680 Speaker 3: Well, at ten thirty they said, Jeff, we're here to 716 00:36:13,719 --> 00:36:17,719 Speaker 3: take you up front. I said, it's happening, and so 717 00:36:17,920 --> 00:36:20,640 Speaker 3: they took me up front. Twelve o'clock I walked out. 718 00:36:21,000 --> 00:36:23,879 Speaker 3: I hugged you, Cinda, I hugged Dave and the other 719 00:36:23,920 --> 00:36:27,480 Speaker 3: two students that were there, Naomi and Olivia. I was 720 00:36:27,520 --> 00:36:30,880 Speaker 3: still in a shock that had happened. I mean, even 721 00:36:30,960 --> 00:36:33,000 Speaker 3: listen to me, I sounded like I was crying. 722 00:36:33,600 --> 00:36:36,160 Speaker 1: I should remember that day. And I know that Roy Ballot, 723 00:36:36,280 --> 00:36:38,360 Speaker 1: one of the original detectives in the case who passed 724 00:36:38,360 --> 00:36:40,040 Speaker 1: away a year ago, would have been there too if 725 00:36:40,080 --> 00:36:42,440 Speaker 1: he could have been. But his two sons and his 726 00:36:42,520 --> 00:36:44,719 Speaker 1: honor made it a point to drive through the ice 727 00:36:44,760 --> 00:36:46,399 Speaker 1: storm to be there when you came out. 728 00:36:47,040 --> 00:36:50,320 Speaker 3: Both of them were there, and they had their dad's 729 00:36:50,360 --> 00:36:53,120 Speaker 3: badges and their police ID, and they said, here, hold 730 00:36:53,120 --> 00:36:57,080 Speaker 3: our dad's ID, and they held their badges and we 731 00:36:57,239 --> 00:36:58,200 Speaker 3: had pictures taken. 732 00:36:58,880 --> 00:37:00,919 Speaker 1: So, Jeff, I know it's only been a few weeks now, 733 00:37:01,200 --> 00:37:03,239 Speaker 1: and I'm sure it's been a whirlwind. What have you 734 00:37:03,239 --> 00:37:05,200 Speaker 1: been up to since you've been out. 735 00:37:04,920 --> 00:37:08,960 Speaker 3: The past month? I have been organizing my cards to 736 00:37:09,040 --> 00:37:11,120 Speaker 3: sell them. I have been trying to get some kind 737 00:37:11,120 --> 00:37:13,680 Speaker 3: of IDs so I can open the bank account, and 738 00:37:14,360 --> 00:37:16,960 Speaker 3: just trying to get caught up on the things that 739 00:37:17,040 --> 00:37:19,960 Speaker 3: I need to do to move my life along. 740 00:37:20,680 --> 00:37:22,760 Speaker 1: And I know you're loving getting to be outdoors again. 741 00:37:22,840 --> 00:37:26,000 Speaker 3: Oh yeah, I've seen as many as fifteen deer in 742 00:37:26,040 --> 00:37:29,760 Speaker 3: the yard. I've had eight gobblers with great, big long beards. 743 00:37:30,120 --> 00:37:33,560 Speaker 3: I've kicked up bunny rabbits. I have all kinds of squirrels. 744 00:37:33,640 --> 00:37:36,319 Speaker 3: I feed the birds. I mean the one day I 745 00:37:36,320 --> 00:37:38,560 Speaker 3: had fourteen cardinals out there, all males. 746 00:37:39,040 --> 00:37:41,840 Speaker 1: So, Dave and Jeff, what's next? Are there any current 747 00:37:41,840 --> 00:37:44,040 Speaker 1: projects that you guys are working on, or any Michigan 748 00:37:44,080 --> 00:37:45,400 Speaker 1: issues that you're hoping to address? 749 00:37:45,440 --> 00:37:45,640 Speaker 3: Now? 750 00:37:46,120 --> 00:37:50,920 Speaker 4: Sure, well, Jeff's case isn't quite over. The prosecution hasn't 751 00:37:51,000 --> 00:37:55,160 Speaker 4: actually dismissed the case against Jeff, so that needs to happen, 752 00:37:55,200 --> 00:37:58,000 Speaker 4: and then there may be some issues, the systemic issues 753 00:37:58,000 --> 00:38:00,279 Speaker 4: that we may have Jeff come in and talk about. 754 00:38:00,520 --> 00:38:03,400 Speaker 4: We do press in the Michigan Innocence Clinic for systemic reform, 755 00:38:03,480 --> 00:38:08,440 Speaker 4: for example, improved eyewitness identification procedures, improve forensic science issues, 756 00:38:08,480 --> 00:38:12,920 Speaker 4: and sometimes we have axoneries come in and testify to 757 00:38:13,320 --> 00:38:17,160 Speaker 4: legislative committees or state Supreme Court, which makes rules about 758 00:38:17,200 --> 00:38:19,000 Speaker 4: ways in which the system went wrong and how it 759 00:38:19,080 --> 00:38:19,680 Speaker 4: hurt them. 760 00:38:19,880 --> 00:38:21,919 Speaker 1: Well, thank you so much for your work on Jeff's case. 761 00:38:22,280 --> 00:38:24,120 Speaker 1: We'll have a link to the Michigan Innocence Clinic and 762 00:38:24,160 --> 00:38:26,160 Speaker 1: our bio in case any of our listeners want to 763 00:38:26,160 --> 00:38:27,960 Speaker 1: help support the great work that you and your students 764 00:38:27,960 --> 00:38:30,200 Speaker 1: are doing. And now we come to the part of 765 00:38:30,239 --> 00:38:33,520 Speaker 1: our show called closing arguments. First of all, thank you 766 00:38:33,520 --> 00:38:36,080 Speaker 1: both for being here. Jeff, it has been an honor 767 00:38:36,120 --> 00:38:38,319 Speaker 1: to help tell your story, and I'd like to hear 768 00:38:38,320 --> 00:38:40,719 Speaker 1: from each of you just your final thoughts ending at 769 00:38:40,760 --> 00:38:43,040 Speaker 1: all that you'd want to say to our listeners. Dave, 770 00:38:43,200 --> 00:38:44,160 Speaker 1: why don't you go first? 771 00:38:45,120 --> 00:38:45,440 Speaker 2: Sure? 772 00:38:45,480 --> 00:38:48,719 Speaker 4: Well, this is one of the craziest cases that we've 773 00:38:48,719 --> 00:38:51,319 Speaker 4: ever handled in the Michigan Innocence Clinic. There just aren't 774 00:38:51,360 --> 00:38:54,160 Speaker 4: too many cases like this where you have such a 775 00:38:54,320 --> 00:38:59,239 Speaker 4: ludicrous theory as to how and why the alleged perpetrator 776 00:38:59,280 --> 00:39:01,960 Speaker 4: committed the and so the lesson to be drawn it 777 00:39:02,000 --> 00:39:04,920 Speaker 4: from this case is that is that you can get 778 00:39:05,160 --> 00:39:08,160 Speaker 4: a jury under the right circumstances to convict somebody based 779 00:39:08,200 --> 00:39:12,920 Speaker 4: on the most ridiculous absurd evidence or lack of evidence 780 00:39:13,120 --> 00:39:16,640 Speaker 4: and crazy theory, and it takes years and years and 781 00:39:16,680 --> 00:39:18,640 Speaker 4: years to undo that injustice. 782 00:39:20,760 --> 00:39:24,680 Speaker 3: Thank you, and I say, it's an honor to be 783 00:39:24,760 --> 00:39:29,799 Speaker 3: here on this show and to tell me, excuse me, 784 00:39:29,920 --> 00:39:33,080 Speaker 3: I'm starting to cry again, to tell my story and 785 00:39:33,680 --> 00:39:38,360 Speaker 3: what happened to me was truly a miscarriage by my 786 00:39:38,600 --> 00:39:43,440 Speaker 3: defense attorneys, by the cops and so on and so forth, 787 00:39:43,760 --> 00:39:48,600 Speaker 3: because the stuff was there and it was ignored. I said, 788 00:39:48,640 --> 00:39:52,040 Speaker 3: I'll take truth serum, I'll take hypnosis. I'll take an 789 00:39:52,040 --> 00:39:55,839 Speaker 3: extensive polygraph that showed it. I'm telling the truth. I mean, 790 00:39:56,040 --> 00:39:59,440 Speaker 3: I spent twenty years fighting to get out and it 791 00:39:59,440 --> 00:40:02,800 Speaker 3: shouldn't take that one for a guy that was innocent. 792 00:40:03,640 --> 00:40:06,719 Speaker 3: People have asked me, well, do you have anger? I 793 00:40:06,760 --> 00:40:11,200 Speaker 3: said no, I might be mad, but I can't let 794 00:40:11,280 --> 00:40:15,080 Speaker 3: that anger eat me and keep eating me, because then 795 00:40:15,160 --> 00:40:18,480 Speaker 3: I'm not gonna heal. And so I go on with 796 00:40:18,520 --> 00:40:22,440 Speaker 3: my life. I do what I do. I do the interviews. 797 00:40:22,600 --> 00:40:24,760 Speaker 3: I took people out and showed them in the woods 798 00:40:24,800 --> 00:40:27,600 Speaker 3: what I liked doing. I show up my cards and 799 00:40:27,640 --> 00:40:31,040 Speaker 3: scratch art, and I just be myself. 800 00:40:35,719 --> 00:40:38,399 Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to Wrongful Conviction. I'm your guest 801 00:40:38,440 --> 00:40:42,160 Speaker 1: host Susan Simpson. Thanks to executive producers Jason Flahm and 802 00:40:42,200 --> 00:40:44,680 Speaker 1: Kevin Wardis for inviting me to be here, and thanks 803 00:40:44,760 --> 00:40:48,160 Speaker 1: also to our production team Connor Hall, Annie Chelsea Leyla 804 00:40:48,280 --> 00:40:51,520 Speaker 1: Robinson and Jeff Cliburn. The music in this production comes 805 00:40:51,560 --> 00:40:55,040 Speaker 1: from Free Time OSCAR nominated composer Jay Ralph. Be sure 806 00:40:55,040 --> 00:40:58,080 Speaker 1: to follow us on Instagram at Wrongful Conviction, on Facebook 807 00:40:58,120 --> 00:41:01,640 Speaker 1: at Wrongful Conviction Podcast, and on Twitter at wrong Conviction, 808 00:41:02,200 --> 00:41:04,880 Speaker 1: as well as Lava for Good. On all three platforms, 809 00:41:05,160 --> 00:41:06,799 Speaker 1: you can find me on Twitter at the View from 810 00:41:07,040 --> 00:41:10,439 Speaker 1: LL two and Instagram at soosim and you can listen 811 00:41:10,440 --> 00:41:13,239 Speaker 1: to my podcast Proof and Undisclosed wherever you listen to 812 00:41:13,239 --> 00:41:16,560 Speaker 1: your podcasts. Wrongful Conviction is a production of Lava for 813 00:41:16,640 --> 00:41:20,440 Speaker 1: Good podcast, an association with Signal Company Number one