Speaker 1: The male loneliness epidemic.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's me.
Speaker 1: I'm so lonely. I just.
Speaker 2: Nobody to talk too. Unfortunately. I want to be wanted,
Speaker 2: I want to be loved, I want to be appreciated.
Speaker 2: I want to have nobody to talk to.
Speaker 3: Yay, I don't know nobody to come for me. Gay.
Speaker 2: Why are men so lonely?
Speaker 1: You don't need to have one hundred people at your
Speaker 1: birthday party. You need three people that you can go
Speaker 1: to when you're in your hardest moments.
Speaker 2: Fifteen percent of US men reported having no close friends.
Speaker 1: One of my friends said that one of her biggest
Speaker 1: eggs is seeing a man cry.
Speaker 2: Being vulnerable has been a long term difficulty.
Speaker 1: These days, women seem to want a man who is
Speaker 1: emotionally available, but not emotional.
Speaker 2: Sometimes I just don't feel seen.
Speaker 1: Sometimes you do have to go outside of what you've
Speaker 1: been used to. If you are trying something new with yourself.
Speaker 2: As a man, If you're listening to this right now
Speaker 2: and you're feeling lonely, I want you to know.
Speaker 1: Hey, everyone, welcome back to this week's episode of On
Speaker 1: Purpose with Jay Chetti and Radiy Dvlkia. We have created
Speaker 1: these moments of conversation so that we can share a
Speaker 1: lot of the things that we discuss in our car
Speaker 1: journeys when we're traveling places when we have space and
Speaker 1: time to actually think about what's happening in the world,
Speaker 1: the conversations we're having with friends, and sharing all the
Speaker 1: things that people are finding a little bit difficult, and
Speaker 1: just you know, having open ended, curious conversations based on it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, we wanted to find a space where we could
Speaker 2: share conversations we're having and whether you're watching this on
Speaker 2: your own, or whether you're watching this with your partner,
Speaker 2: or whether you're watching this with a friend, we just
Speaker 2: wanted to engage in conversations that we think people are having.
Speaker 2: They may not know who to go to and where
Speaker 2: to turn to, and so we hope that this provides
Speaker 2: a space and an open forum to have those in.
Speaker 2: Today's topic is why are men so lonely? And this
Speaker 2: is based on something that researchers are calling a friendship
Speaker 2: recession among men. So, just to set it up, fifteen
Speaker 2: percent of US men reported having no close friends fifteen
Speaker 2: percent in twenty twenty one, which is up from three
Speaker 2: percent in nineteen ninety. Only thirteen percent of men have
Speaker 2: ten plus close friends, which is down from thirty three
Speaker 2: percent in nineteen ninety and one in four US men
Speaker 2: under thirty five report feeling lonely. One in four men
Speaker 2: under thirty five report feeling lonely, with US men ranking
Speaker 2: lonelier than peers in the most developed countries, and loneliness
Speaker 2: was declared a national epidemic by US Surgeon General Vivicmorti
Speaker 2: in twenty twenty three.
Speaker 1: That is honestly really sad though. But who also knew
Speaker 1: that Akon was so right with the songs he was
Speaker 1: singing in the day. What here's a song lonely?
Speaker 2: I don't think people going to even remember that you're.
Speaker 1: No.
Speaker 2: But you know justin bieber As a song called lonely
Speaker 2: does he Yeah, that's one of my favorite No so good.
Speaker 1: But all that to say that men aren't really speaking
Speaker 1: about it, but we're just not listening, That's what That's
Speaker 1: what That's really what it is. People are somehow talking
Speaker 1: about it, but we're not listening. It's so interesting because
Speaker 1: with men, I noticed that men often travel in groups.
Speaker 1: Like recently, I've been laughing with my cousins because we
Speaker 1: go to the gym and there's these packs of men
Speaker 1: that come in. You know, girls will be alone, they'll
Speaker 1: be doing their own thing, but there are two, three,
Speaker 1: sometimes a pack of six men who are hyping each
Speaker 1: other up in the gym working out. Like I noticed
Speaker 1: that a lot, and but I noticed it so much
Speaker 1: more in sports. And so when I was thinking about it,
Speaker 1: I realized that so many men connect through activities. Women
Speaker 1: connect through We'll go get our nails done together. That's
Speaker 1: a space talk. You can't do much else but talk.
Speaker 1: You go get a coffee. What do you do You
Speaker 1: talk and have a coffee. And I think a lot
Speaker 1: of the way that women spend time together creates space
Speaker 1: for emotional conversations, creates space and time to have that,
Speaker 1: whereas a lot of the time when men meet, they
Speaker 1: go to the pub to watch a game, they'll they'll
Speaker 1: play in activity. It doesn't leave room or space to
Speaker 1: have a conversation except for before like oh did you
Speaker 1: watch that game? And then after it's like, oh, yeah,
Speaker 1: I'm gonna go watch the other game. And so I think,
Speaker 1: is that what men's sound like? Yeah, that's what they
Speaker 1: sound I'm just gonna have a point. But I think
Speaker 1: that the way that they spend time together kind of
Speaker 1: reflects what you're talking about.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's that. Yeah, I never thought about it like that.
Speaker 1: You can get your nails done more together.
Speaker 2: Okay, you're right that I have to make a concerted
Speaker 2: effort to find time to talk to my friends before
Speaker 2: or after we play pickleball or paddle or whatever it may be.
Speaker 2: So you're spot on the way I like to spend
Speaker 2: time with my friends is we play sports together where
Speaker 2: outdoors to other we're watching a game together. So I
Speaker 2: have to make an added effort as a man who
Speaker 2: does not feel lonely, I have to make an added
Speaker 2: effort to spend time with my friends. Now I get
Speaker 2: this question a lot because we also both moved and
Speaker 2: so I live in LA. Now we live in LA
Speaker 2: and we were born and raised in London. So all
Speaker 2: my best friends are my friends that know me the
Speaker 2: best know me. Three sixty all live in London, and
Speaker 2: one of them just moved to Dubai. And so when
Speaker 2: I tell people that I speak to my best mate
Speaker 2: who was my best man at my wedding, three times
Speaker 2: a week, most people are absolutely shocked. Yeah, they're like,
Speaker 2: how Now I have to give credit because he also
Speaker 2: picks up. He also makes time. He also makes a
Speaker 2: massive effort. But the reality is that at one point
Speaker 2: I realized that if we were not talking to to
Speaker 2: three times a week, I would feel lonely. Because he
Speaker 2: is my closest friend, he does know me the best,
Speaker 2: he has known me for the last twenty years. Yeah,
Speaker 2: and so for me, that setup has what's allowed me
Speaker 2: to not feel lonely because my life is busy. Also,
Speaker 2: I think when you get married, naturally on the weeknights,
Speaker 2: I want to spend time with you. Yeah, but we're
Speaker 2: investing in our relationship, and my friends are in relationships
Speaker 2: are also investing in their relationship. So if I'm now
Speaker 2: only seeing mates once a week, maybe once every two weeks,
Speaker 2: maybe once every month, how are we going to keep
Speaker 2: that relationship up? How am I not going to feel
Speaker 2: lonely because I don't have the time to be vulnerable.
Speaker 2: If I'm only seeing you once a month, I may
Speaker 2: not be confident or comfortable enough to open my heart
Speaker 2: be vulnerable. And I think for men in general, being
Speaker 2: vulnerable has been a long term difficulty.
Speaker 1: I think about a lot of the men that I've
Speaker 1: seen and who've had that kind of surface level connection,
Speaker 1: not surface level, but not a place of conversation with
Speaker 1: their friends where they can really speak about their heart.
Speaker 1: I'm actually feeling really like down today, like you would
Speaker 1: not not normally hear a man say that to their friend.
Speaker 1: How can someone who's used to doing these activities with
Speaker 1: their friends, who's used to connecting to them based on
Speaker 1: having a drink or going out and playing sport, how
Speaker 1: do you make that transition? Because I saw this trend
Speaker 1: on TikTok and it was these guys calling, well, you know,
Speaker 1: the good night trend, but then it also turned into
Speaker 1: the one way you call in sake, I'm just calling
Speaker 1: to say good night to you. And then also there
Speaker 1: was a trend saying, oh do you think I should
Speaker 1: get therapy? A guy calling and asking their friends you
Speaker 1: think I should get therapy? And it was really interesting
Speaker 1: because you could tell the guys who don't have that
Speaker 1: connection with their friends and be like, oh, why are
Speaker 1: you being such a loser? Why do you go get
Speaker 1: wow like or say do or saying you know, making
Speaker 1: fun of it versus even believing that it could be true.
Speaker 1: And so how would a guy who's so used to
Speaker 1: having twenty years of this friendship where it's based on
Speaker 1: jokes and laughter and not really talking about what's going on.
Speaker 1: Make that switch, because that can be quite uncomfortable for
Speaker 1: a lot of people, I imagine.
Speaker 2: I mean that you've raised such a good point and
Speaker 2: I never saw that trend. But that's actually really sad
Speaker 2: for me that even in this day and age, when
Speaker 2: a man has plucked up the courage to say something
Speaker 2: like that, that it's met with that kind of reaction.
Speaker 2: Because you'd hope that there are athletes today who've talked
Speaker 2: about their mental health.
Speaker 1: Understand that's okay to that be okay.
Speaker 2: It's time to talk, it's time to change.
Speaker 3: You know, you got so much responsibility as athlete to
Speaker 3: your team. You know, youve got to play at a
Speaker 3: certain level, your teammates counting on. You, got the pressure
Speaker 3: for the media. But it's going through something when everybody
Speaker 3: you know, things that you can't see, you can't touch.
Speaker 2: It is time for sport to accept its responsibility with
Speaker 2: this issue. There are athletes and sports and actors and
Speaker 2: musicians male who've spoken about the challenges with their mental
Speaker 2: health on all their platforms. I feel like we're living
Speaker 2: at a time with some of the toughest, strongest men
Speaker 2: on the planet talk about these things, and so I
Speaker 2: think we've got to shift the narrative that when you
Speaker 2: say something vulnerable that you're weak, or that in some
Speaker 2: way you're a loser, or in some way that you're
Speaker 2: not strong. But I think as we have these athletes
Speaker 2: and superstars talking about their pain, I think there's also
Speaker 2: been a trend online which is of the alpha male,
Speaker 2: which is this idea of if you're a high value man,
Speaker 2: you don't talk about your feelings. You just have discipline
Speaker 2: and you break through it. And I always find this
Speaker 2: really really interesting because I consider myself to be quite alpha,
Speaker 2: and I consider myself to be quite emotionally engaged, and
Speaker 2: so I've always tried to do both, and I don't
Speaker 2: see them as a paradox. I see both as strength.
Speaker 2: So I'm disciplined, I enjoy working out, I enjoy competition,
Speaker 2: I love all those things. Yeah you're nodding because you're like, yeah,
Speaker 2: I'm extremely competitive. And at the same time, I think
Speaker 2: talking about my feelings is really important, emotional vulnerability is
Speaker 2: really important, and and being able to make space for
Speaker 2: my friends and share is really important. So I think
Speaker 2: a part of it is, first of all, accepting within
Speaker 2: yourself that it's okay, right. I think even before you
Speaker 2: start looking for people to share it with, do you
Speaker 2: still think it's a weakness. Because if you think it's
Speaker 2: a weakness, then when you share it and someone rejects it,
Speaker 2: you're just going to go and climb into your shell
Speaker 2: even more. But if you think it's a strength and
Speaker 2: you believe it's value and you believe it's something you need,
Speaker 2: I actually this is the hardest advice to give, but
Speaker 2: it's true. You can have your friends that you play
Speaker 2: football with and have bands with and have jokes with,
Speaker 2: and if they're not the ones that you can share
Speaker 2: this with, you may have to find a separate group
Speaker 2: of friends where you can talk about these things. And
Speaker 2: that doesn't mean you abandon your old friends. It doesn't
Speaker 2: mean your old friends are bad. It doesn't mean you
Speaker 2: have to leave them. It just means that you may
Speaker 2: have to start creating a community of new men that
Speaker 2: you can have this community with. Yeah, because if you're
Speaker 2: being met with your loser dude, you don't need therapy.
Speaker 2: You just need, you know, to get a pint down
Speaker 2: the pope. Like, if you're being met with that, then
Speaker 2: that's not an easy wall to break down.
Speaker 1: Oh it's not.
Speaker 2: And first you should try with your friends. You should
Speaker 2: try with the friends you have, but if you don't,
Speaker 2: you are going to have to start constructing a new group.
Speaker 1: I've been seeing these really cool I don't know why
Speaker 1: I'm getting these ads, but these really cool ads that
Speaker 1: not ads. But you know, when there are retreats and
Speaker 1: stuff happening, and there are so many men's retreats that happen.
Speaker 1: Oh ah, yes, and I think, and you know, I
Speaker 1: remember recommending this to a friend whose partner was struggling,
Speaker 1: and I was saying, why don't you go on? Why
Speaker 1: don't you meet completely new people who are going somewhere
Speaker 1: for the same reason. If someone's going to a men's retreat,
Speaker 1: that means that they are lacking male friends, they are
Speaker 1: wanting to speak to people who are wanting to open
Speaker 1: their heart, connect heal things from their past, whatever it is.
Speaker 1: But sometimes you do have to go outside of what
Speaker 1: you've been used to if you are trying something new
Speaker 1: with yourself. And I think the other part that I
Speaker 1: was gonna mention that I remembered seeing online was you know,
Speaker 1: they are all these really funny I find them really funny.
Speaker 1: But at the same time, I can see how for
Speaker 1: a man who's trying to be more emotional it can
Speaker 1: make you shut down. It's you know, when you have
Speaker 1: to now treat your man like a princess and essentially
Speaker 1: saying that men are being too emotional these days. And
Speaker 1: I think these days women seem to want a man
Speaker 1: who is emotionally available but not emotional. So they want
Speaker 1: someone who's emotionally available, like oh, I need him to
Speaker 1: understand me, and I want him to get where I'm
Speaker 1: coming from, and I want him to be attuned to me.
Speaker 1: But then I don't want him to cry, like I
Speaker 1: don't want I don't want him to do or when
Speaker 1: we're talking about X, one of my friends said that
Speaker 1: one of her biggest X is seeing a man cry
Speaker 1: or like be emotional. Wow, And I was like, oh wow,
Speaker 1: Like okay, it's so interesting. But I do think whether
Speaker 1: a woman says it or not, there's quite a few
Speaker 1: people who feel that way, where a man crying is
Speaker 1: still seen as being a weeks But I still want
Speaker 1: you to be emotionally available to me. And so I
Speaker 1: think for men seeing stuff like that online, we think
Speaker 1: it's people think it's just funny but I think that
Speaker 1: can be really difficult because it stops you then from
Speaker 1: also being okay with the idea that I should be
Speaker 1: able to cry, be unhappy, show that I'm feeling upset, depressed,
Speaker 1: whatever it is. And so I think a lot of
Speaker 1: what we see online can really play a role in
Speaker 1: how we feel.
Speaker 2: And that's what makes it hard for men because they
Speaker 2: then think, now, whether that's Sometimes it's so interesting as
Speaker 2: well because social media perception is also not reality totally,
Speaker 2: but then we start believing that is, and then men go, God,
Speaker 2: I can't share that emotion around her because she's going
Speaker 2: to think I'm weak. But then I'm carrying this load
Speaker 2: and I don't know what to do with.
Speaker 1: It, which then changes me as a partner, as a
Speaker 1: person to connect to other people.
Speaker 2: And you would hope you taught me this and I
Speaker 2: loved it when you said it to me years ago.
Speaker 2: Which was this idea that and that's why your podcast
Speaker 2: is called a really Good Cry. Was this idea that
Speaker 2: crying and laughing are actually just the same, that there
Speaker 2: are expressions of an emotion, and when you think something
Speaker 2: is when you think something's really funny, you don't have
Speaker 2: to think about laughing like you don't go, oh, that's
Speaker 2: really funny. I'm now going to laugh. You just laugh
Speaker 2: because it's funny. You don't have to think about crying
Speaker 2: crying something that happens, when something affects you in your
Speaker 2: gut or your heart or your emotion, you just cry.
Speaker 2: You don't go on, now I'm going to cry.
Speaker 1: You also don't stop laughter. But people stop tears.
Speaker 2: Correct, Yeah, people say stop crying, stop crying. You never
Speaker 2: say someone stop laughing, stop laughing. Is it would be
Speaker 2: a weird thing to say. Yeah, And we say, oh no, no,
Speaker 2: don't cry about that. Don't cry about that. It's okay.
Speaker 2: And it's like you wouldn't say don't laugh about that,
Speaker 2: you know, unless you said offensive. This was earlier this year,
Speaker 2: but Kendrick Lamar did a cover for Harpers Bizarre, and
Speaker 2: in that piece he talked about.
Speaker 1: They not like us, they not like us. I'm a
Speaker 1: wrong person.
Speaker 2: That is the right person. Good, all right? So he said,
Speaker 2: j always going to be really impressed by that. He said,
Speaker 2: my tears is all on the internet. So Lamar says,
Speaker 2: in reference to a viral moment where he cried on camera,
Speaker 2: and he goes, and now I look back, and I
Speaker 2: love that moment. I love that that happened because it
Speaker 2: showed me in real time expressing myself and seeing all
Speaker 2: the work that I put forth actually come to life
Speaker 2: in that moment.
Speaker 3: Wow.
Speaker 2: Right, And that's Kendrick Lamar, like, who's you know? One
Speaker 2: like I don't know how many Grammys this year and
Speaker 2: performed at the super Bowl And he's saying that, and
Speaker 2: he goes on to say, my pops, he was tough.
Speaker 2: He never showed a weakness, and I learned to experience that.
Speaker 2: But for what I do, there is certainly no growth
Speaker 2: without vulnerability. If I understood the power of vulnerability earlier,
Speaker 2: I could have had more depth and more reach to
Speaker 2: the guys that was around me.
Speaker 1: I don't know whether I'm more shocked at that or
Speaker 1: the fact that you were at Drake concert last week
Speaker 1: and I owe quote Kendrick.
Speaker 2: Lamar, why are you trying to start beef?
Speaker 1: I'm not I'm just saying, why are you starting beef?
Speaker 1: And honestly, Kendrick, those are some bars.
Speaker 2: Right, It's just it's I'm sharing that because I hope
Speaker 2: it's empowering for men, because you see, you know, a
Speaker 2: conversation Kendrick is like, yeah, rapper, He's having this rap
Speaker 2: battle he's got at the super Bowl, you know, all
Speaker 2: this stuff, and it's like, but this is what he's
Speaker 2: saying about himself and his life. And he's talking about
Speaker 2: how his dad was tough, his dad never showed any
Speaker 2: weakness and he learned that. But he's actually saying, I
Speaker 2: wish I learned the power of vulnerability earlier. And so
Speaker 2: I'm like, that's coming from you know.
Speaker 1: It's really difficult for people who you know, just thinking
Speaker 1: about him as a rapper, but it's I guess if
Speaker 1: someone who's a rapper and in that scene and in
Speaker 1: that environment can do something like that, it gives hope
Speaker 1: to people who may be in an environment like we
Speaker 1: were talking about before that find it difficult to break
Speaker 1: out of that same cycle of spending time with people.
Speaker 1: But I do think that the community is the key
Speaker 1: fact to feeling like you can open up, and I
Speaker 1: think building community is one of the hardest things that
Speaker 1: people find. And that's why I think loneliness, especially in men,
Speaker 1: if they're not if they're not in a partnership, that
Speaker 1: also forces them to come together with couples and meet
Speaker 1: other men it's like where do people meet other people?
Speaker 2: Yeah, and that's what I think. But I think the
Speaker 2: other challenges for men is that I think women like
Speaker 2: to gather in groups, but sometimes men have better conversations
Speaker 2: one to one. I was at dinner last night with
Speaker 2: a guy that someone that I became friends with early on.
Speaker 2: We're part of a meditation group that I was teaching.
Speaker 2: I bumped into randomly at a grocery store once. We
Speaker 2: spent three hours that evening together.
Speaker 3: Oh wow.
Speaker 2: Yeah, we both have crazy travel schedules. We don't see
Speaker 2: each other often, but we happen to be in London.
Speaker 2: He's leaving today and we made time to go to
Speaker 2: dinner together and I'm not we had We both had
Speaker 2: the best time. It's so nice and we've probably spent
Speaker 2: three hours talking. It was full on, open conversation, like
Speaker 2: we dove in deep in thirty minutes and we both
Speaker 2: walked away going we need to do that more. And
Speaker 2: I feel like that, like when I'm with a man
Speaker 2: one on one and we're at the same frequency, I
Speaker 2: can lock in. Actually, when I'm in group environments, I
Speaker 2: really struggle because you're trying to create a cohesive environment,
Speaker 2: but there may be two guys over there who just
Speaker 2: want to talk about the football. Yeah, there may be
Speaker 2: another two guys over there who just want to talk
Speaker 2: about whatever they you know, whatever's happening at work or
Speaker 2: whatever it is. And then there's a couple of you
Speaker 2: that actually want to go deeper, but you can't because
Speaker 2: you can't direct what eight people are doing.
Speaker 1: It throws off the frequency.
Speaker 2: Yeah, whereas I feel like women will all talk about
Speaker 2: one subject together, whereas I think a lot of men
Speaker 2: I know personally that I feel building one to one
Speaker 2: friendships is the space where I get to do that.
Speaker 2: And it was interesting because this was talking about emotional
Speaker 2: conditioning and how girls and boys start out on the
Speaker 2: same trajectory of prioritizing friendships, but boys feel pressure to
Speaker 2: give up their same sex friendships because it feels girly.
Speaker 2: Oh So that idea of like hanging out together and
Speaker 2: us talking about our feelings boys are conditioned to feel
Speaker 2: that that's a girly thing to do what you.
Speaker 1: Felt with that guy is called the bromance.
Speaker 2: One thing I learned as well was I needed I
Speaker 2: needed friends in my industry because they also have a
Speaker 2: shorthand for how I feel and That's how he felt too.
Speaker 2: It's like having friends that are in a similar industry.
Speaker 1: You already have something in common, you already have an understanding.
Speaker 1: But you know, I think women feel that way too.
Speaker 1: I've been speaking about a friend that I've made recently
Speaker 1: who feels I feel like I've known for so long.
Speaker 1: But when you feel that connection to a friend, when
Speaker 1: you feel understood by them, when you feel like you
Speaker 1: can share a lot of yourself that you can't normally
Speaker 1: with other people, it really is. I think friendships are
Speaker 1: so close to the feelings of romantic relationships. And I
Speaker 1: don't mean that in a weird way, but it really is.
Speaker 1: It sparks the same excitement and because you feel understood.
Speaker 1: And I remember you saying this, I think on my
Speaker 1: podcast where you said not everyone is supposed to understand you,
Speaker 1: and love is understanding and love is also so special
Speaker 1: that you don't feel it with so many people. So, yes,
Speaker 1: you feel in a romantic partnership, but how beautiful if
Speaker 1: you can actually feel it with friendships too. And I
Speaker 1: think women are feeling lonely as well. I think finding community, Yeah,
Speaker 1: I think finding community for women is so difficult because
Speaker 1: in women you also have this aspect of unfortunately, where
Speaker 1: gossip is a big part of connection, and I think
Speaker 1: that makes a lot of women feel insecure in friendships
Speaker 1: because gossip ends up being a big part of it.
Speaker 2: Now you feel like if you say something to someone,
Speaker 2: they're going to tell someone else in the group, and
Speaker 2: that trust being broken makes it uncomfortable to actually vulnerable.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think so. I think that's a big part
Speaker 1: of female friendship unfortunately, especially what I grew up with.
Speaker 1: And I think this one to one connection what you said,
Speaker 1: is very important because even for women, finding that one
Speaker 1: to one connection where you feel you can confide in
Speaker 1: this person. I think for women a big thing is
Speaker 1: trust that can I trust what I'm telling this girl,
Speaker 1: She's not judging me, She's not going to share it
Speaker 1: with anybody else. I think that something that's quite rare.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, it's interesting hearing about it from that perspective.
Speaker 2: I've found the one to one thing to be the
Speaker 2: solver for this. I've recommended it so many of my
Speaker 2: male friends, and I've said, guys, we always hang out
Speaker 2: in big groups.
Speaker 1: I used to be a pack person. Yeah, No, I
Speaker 1: mean I've always loved hanging out in big groups. And
Speaker 1: I've recently started spending individual time with someone that I
Speaker 1: really want to spend individual time with, and it makes
Speaker 1: such a difference.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I think it's I think it's also like,
Speaker 2: you have to find people who want to do this,
Speaker 2: So not every person I go out to dinner with,
Speaker 2: like yesterday is somewhere where I walk away going, oh,
Speaker 2: we could do this anytime, because maybe the conversation stays
Speaker 2: surface level, so there is a bit of frequency matching.
Speaker 1: You have to assess the situation.
Speaker 2: Yeah, Like, I don't think, and I also don't think
Speaker 2: every friend of yours to be a real friend has
Speaker 2: to have a deep conversation with. There are friends that
Speaker 2: I'm happy to call up and be like, did you
Speaker 2: see what Manchester United just did? Like I want to
Speaker 2: have that relationship with them, and I would love if
Speaker 2: that can also go to how are you feeling today?
Speaker 2: But not every relationship has to do that, And so
Speaker 2: sometimes I also feel we put too much pressure on
Speaker 2: everyone in our life to be everything.
Speaker 1: What do you think of some good questions? And then
Speaker 1: people could ask themselves, like men, what are some good
Speaker 1: questions that men could ask themselves to understand am I
Speaker 1: feeling like? Am I feeling like I don't have a
Speaker 1: good connection with people, but then also questions that they
Speaker 1: can maybe open up this idea of vulnerability with their
Speaker 1: friends with that doesn't feel too scary or too intense.
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Speaker 2: store near you. I think men that are lonely is
Speaker 2: do you have So if a man wants to know
Speaker 2: whether he's lonely or not, do you have three friends
Speaker 2: that you could call at three am and share something
Speaker 2: that you're struggling with?
Speaker 1: Even one friend?
Speaker 2: Even one friend? Yeah, that that's something I would look at.
Speaker 2: And then I would also ask, for a man, do
Speaker 2: you have one friend that you could call to share
Speaker 2: your biggest win with? Because sometimes that can be harder. Yes,
Speaker 2: because sharing your pain is hard, But sharing your success
Speaker 2: is harder because it can come across as bravado, arrogance, yes, etcetera.
Speaker 2: And so you may feel you have to play your
Speaker 2: success down. And so I think that's what I would
Speaker 2: look at. So that helps you figure out whether you're
Speaker 2: lonely or not. And then it's like, do you feel
Speaker 2: you have someone in your life who doesn't judge you
Speaker 2: and gives you the space to be all of yourself?
Speaker 2: And that's what you said. Women need that too. We
Speaker 2: all want a space in our life where we feel
Speaker 2: seen and not judged. Yes, actually you say this, This
Speaker 2: is really interesting. This guy came up to me. He
Speaker 2: worked at the restaurant that I went to last night,
Speaker 2: and he came up to me afterwards when I was leaving,
Speaker 2: and he said, hey, I listen to the podcast. Really
Speaker 2: love what you're doing. Me and my wife love what
Speaker 2: you and your wife are doing. And he said, but
Speaker 2: sometimes I just don't feel seen.
Speaker 3: Oh.
Speaker 2: Interesting, And he said, sometimes I feel only successful people
Speaker 2: feel seen, and I'm still trying to become successful and
Speaker 2: I'm not there yet. And I said to him, I said, actually,
Speaker 2: success for people also don't feel seen because they feel
Speaker 2: seen through a particular lens, Whereas the most seen I
Speaker 2: feel is when I'm with my wife or with a
Speaker 2: deep old friend that I know, and they see all
Speaker 2: of me. And I was like, you're going to feel
Speaker 2: more seen if you spend time with people deeply and
Speaker 2: individually than you are. If you have a global brand.
Speaker 1: If you have lots of eyes on you, you have.
Speaker 2: Lots of eyes.
Speaker 1: You're seen.
Speaker 2: It doesn't mean you feel seen. It's like you have views,
Speaker 2: but you don't feel seen. And because people are ultimately
Speaker 2: catching you for thirty seconds and making a judgment on you. Yes,
Speaker 2: and so anyway, I know I got off on a tangent,
Speaker 2: but no.
Speaker 1: But that's really that's such a good point. I think.
Speaker 1: You know, even when you're younger, you think you need
Speaker 1: more friends and you have to have multiple people that
Speaker 1: you can do different things with. But as you get older,
Speaker 1: you realize that it's not necessarily about having how many
Speaker 1: people you can invite to your birthday. I was planning
Speaker 1: my birthday recently, and I think I have like eight
Speaker 1: friends who I can call here maybe and I don't
Speaker 1: even know what all of them are going to end
Speaker 1: up coming. And at that time, it maybe realize how
Speaker 1: how thankful I am for just those eight friends. It
Speaker 1: wasn't oh, I've got twenty family members coming and like
Speaker 1: eight friends coming. It was, oh, wow, I've got eight
Speaker 1: friends that are here that I want to spend time with.
Speaker 1: And then I was trying to collect other people and
Speaker 1: add people to it. That I was like, do I
Speaker 1: really need these people here? Or am I trying to
Speaker 1: collect numbers to feel like I've got more friends unnecessarily?
Speaker 1: And so I think the views versus being seen is
Speaker 1: a really important part of when you're thinking about friendships,
Speaker 1: because you don't need to have one hundred people at
Speaker 1: your birthday party. You need three people that you can
Speaker 1: go to when you're in your hardest moments, when you
Speaker 1: feel like you've done something that you need to talk
Speaker 1: about that you're judging yourself about, that you feel that
Speaker 1: person's not going to judge you for, And that's so
Speaker 1: much more important than having the thirty friends at your
Speaker 1: birthday party.
Speaker 2: I'm so glad you made my tangent relevant. Yeah, it's
Speaker 2: really good. That's really good. But no, that's exactly it.
Speaker 2: Like I think, I think a lot of men feel
Speaker 2: lonely because we're always in crowds. That's the idea that
Speaker 2: you're always in groups, And so that the same idea
Speaker 2: that you're saying is that we've always been taught that
Speaker 2: more friends means more happiness. Yes, and less friends can
Speaker 2: actually equal more happiness if there's more intimacy more depth
Speaker 2: to that relationship. Loneliness is linked to depression, anxiety, dementia, diabetes, stroke,
Speaker 2: and heart disease, and loneliness can be as harmful as
Speaker 2: smoking fifteen cigarettes per day.
Speaker 1: Yeah, when I worked at the hospital, I would do
Speaker 1: these clinics for elderly and it would be to do
Speaker 1: with them not eating. And it was so interesting the
Speaker 1: underweight people that used to come in in the elderly
Speaker 1: clinics would be like eighty percent men and only twenty
Speaker 1: percent women. Because they talk about how especially for men,
Speaker 1: they're eating habits, the way that they connect to people.
Speaker 1: If they're not having that interaction, and if their partners
Speaker 1: passed away or whatever, they lose the world to do
Speaker 1: much else in their life. And so it was really
Speaker 1: interesting seeing how eighty percent of those people that were
Speaker 1: coming in and our older state were people who were lonely,
Speaker 1: spent most of the time in their home. And even
Speaker 1: when it came to dementia, it says being in a
Speaker 1: community or feeling a sense of purpose in your life,
Speaker 1: whether it is within a community or whether it is
Speaker 1: with your partner, completely changes the trajectory of your The
Speaker 1: progression of dementia and your longevity and the feeling of
Speaker 1: being wanted and needed in this world is so important
Speaker 1: to help keep your mental state alive, And so for
Speaker 1: men especially, I think there's a I've seen so many
Speaker 1: older women who are able to get back up faster
Speaker 1: once their partners died, but I think naturally for a man,
Speaker 1: from what I've seen, it ends up being a lot
Speaker 1: more difficult. So I think that's another reason why having
Speaker 1: friends is so important. Don't think about it for now,
Speaker 1: you have to think about it for your future of
Speaker 1: when you are in a situation where maybe you have
Speaker 1: to be alone or away from your partner. Do I
Speaker 1: have people that I'm going to be able to turn
Speaker 1: to in those moments, because that's what community is supposed
Speaker 1: to be there for.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And and the research shows that men are happier
Speaker 2: when they're married, but women are unhappier when they're married. Really,
Speaker 2: or at least I think your study says that men
Speaker 2: live longer when they're married and women don't live as
Speaker 2: long when they're married, because I've seen them and carry
Speaker 2: on more stress. Yeah, and men are actually helped by
Speaker 2: the marriage.
Speaker 1: You notice that when people lose their partners at a
Speaker 1: young age or in an old age. Men struggle so
Speaker 1: much more than women do. Women are just used to
Speaker 1: going through the pain. They also are use to most
Speaker 1: of the systems and the things that they have to
Speaker 1: do in the house, like they're able to adapt faster,
Speaker 1: whereas they think for men that's really difficult.
Speaker 2: Yeah, this one was really interesting and it's kind of
Speaker 2: based on what you're saying.
Speaker 3: There's this.
Speaker 2: Jeffrey Hall, a professor of communication studies at the University
Speaker 2: of Kansas who studies friendships. He previously found it can
Speaker 2: take two hundred hours to make a close friend two
Speaker 2: hundred and he talks about how men rely on their
Speaker 2: wives to develop the social calendar, so they think they'll
Speaker 2: do it and I don't have to do it, and
Speaker 2: he says that there's a challenge in their skill set.
Speaker 2: So it's the idea that women plan the social calendar
Speaker 2: and men just tag along to whatever the women plan,
Speaker 2: and so they don't ever think about, well, I need
Speaker 2: to find the mayor, I need to do this, I
Speaker 2: need to do that. My wife's kind of planned the weekend,
Speaker 2: or just do whatever she says, and so he doesn't
Speaker 2: really spend that much time.
Speaker 1: So good at planning your social calendar. Yeah, but you've
Speaker 1: really had to work at it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I've just think you've really.
Speaker 1: Had to make a point of saying, two days a week,
Speaker 1: I'm going to meet friends. I'm going to catch up
Speaker 1: with this you've got. I feel like you've got a
Speaker 1: good system in place of these are the friends I
Speaker 1: need to catch up with once a month, I'm going
Speaker 1: to do this with this person. Once a week, I'm
Speaker 1: going to meet this person. And it's good You've you've
Speaker 1: really learned how to create that cycle and system to
Speaker 1: make sure that you do connects.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's why I like it important to think about
Speaker 2: their life, like, think about everything mathematically, and everything becomes simpler.
Speaker 2: Right if you make it about you know, how you're feeling,
Speaker 2: how you're feeling on that day, it will just it will,
Speaker 2: you know. There's so many times like yesterday, before the dinner,
Speaker 2: I was so close to canceling because I was a
Speaker 2: bit tired. Yeah, so glad I didn't. And that's where
Speaker 2: systems help. And so it's like who do you want
Speaker 2: to see once a week, who do you want to
Speaker 2: see once a month, who do you want to see
Speaker 2: once a quarter, and who do you want to see
Speaker 2: once a year. If you have a list of the
Speaker 2: people in those buckets, Yeah, it becomes really really simple.
Speaker 2: So I'm with you every day whenever we're in the
Speaker 2: same country, we're together every day, which is awesome. And
Speaker 2: then but then there's friends. I'm like, okay, I'm going
Speaker 2: to see you once or twice a week. I'm going
Speaker 2: to see you, and that allows me to simplify my
Speaker 2: life and now it's not random. And then I don't
Speaker 2: go three months and go, why haven't I seen that person? Ye,
Speaker 2: them like I love seeing them, and it's like, well, no,
Speaker 2: just have it in the system. And now I don't
Speaker 2: have to feel that way. And so I'm just allowing
Speaker 2: myself to be more effective with friendships. And people think
Speaker 2: that that might be business like or transactional. Actually that's
Speaker 2: what love and respect actually is, where it's like, I
Speaker 2: respect you enough, you're in the calendar, I want to
Speaker 2: see you every month, and it allows us to deepen
Speaker 2: our friendship and then at the end of the year,
Speaker 2: we get to think about all the amazing memories we make.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: I think what we all have to realize is that
Speaker 2: friendship is a learned skill and it's not something you're
Speaker 2: born with. And so we almost assume that people should
Speaker 2: know how to be a good friend. We assume people
Speaker 2: should know how to be a good partner, We assume
Speaker 2: someone should know how to be a good parent, And
Speaker 2: the reality is all of those skills are learned. And
Speaker 2: so for me as a man, if you're listening to
Speaker 2: this right now and you're feeling lonely, I want you
Speaker 2: to know that there are other men out there that
Speaker 2: feel lonely, which means that you actually have the opportunity
Speaker 2: to become community for each other. And that truly starts
Speaker 2: with you having the courage to share something vulnerably openly,
Speaker 2: honestly and seeing who matches that frequency. And it's as
Speaker 2: simple as that is. Not everyone's going to match your frequency.
Speaker 2: Someone might joke with you, someone might laugh at you,
Speaker 2: someone might just play it off. That's okay, because chances
Speaker 2: are'm five to ten years time, they may come back
Speaker 2: to you and say, I'm sorry I did that. I'm
Speaker 2: going through something right now, but for now they aren't
Speaker 2: that person. That doesn't mean they're bad, it doesn't mean
Speaker 2: you reject them. Just go find the people that you
Speaker 2: want to connect with. How have you seen men in
Speaker 2: your life apart from me struggle or do well in friendships?
Speaker 2: What has worked for them and what has not work
Speaker 2: for them?
Speaker 1: I think sometimes well, especially in our community, men have
Speaker 1: a lot of family members that they can like socialize with.
Speaker 1: But I have noticed as time goes on, you know,
Speaker 1: I think about my dad and I remember he used
Speaker 1: to have like a huge social life when he was younger,
Speaker 1: and then as he's gotten old and older, that Paul
Speaker 1: has definitely gotten smaller and smaller. But he I randomly
Speaker 1: walk into his office or I'll randomly walk into the
Speaker 1: room and he's having a conversation with his best friend,
Speaker 1: my uncle, who he's known since he was at university,
Speaker 1: and they're talking about things, whether it's through their physical
Speaker 1: health or they're you know, here and there. But they'll
Speaker 1: still have these once a month catch up conversations. He
Speaker 1: doesn't really see them. They don't go out necessarily, they
Speaker 1: don't go out and have a meal together. But he
Speaker 1: has these two or three people who I know he
Speaker 1: is speaking to. There's like Andreas, there's my uncle, there's
Speaker 1: one other person. I know that he has these people
Speaker 1: that will checking in on him and that he's checking
Speaker 1: in on And so I think friendships also change as
Speaker 1: time goes on. They don't have to look the same way.
Speaker 1: You don't have to be going out. I don't mind
Speaker 1: keep saying the pub. Why don't keep thinking about that's
Speaker 1: a thing. You don't have to keep going out to
Speaker 1: the pub to meet your friends. But you know that
Speaker 1: those people are still available to you. And so I
Speaker 1: think what you were saying is can you make that call?
Speaker 1: I know my dad seems like I always wonder, oh,
Speaker 1: it's my dad got friends and he's going out and about,
Speaker 1: But actually he's got those people he can call. And
Speaker 1: I think that's something that's built over time university and
Speaker 1: he's in his seventi he's like seventy now, and he's
Speaker 1: kept that connection from that point. He knows every time
Speaker 1: I struggle with anything or he thinks he needs something,
Speaker 1: he calls them and he knows that they've got the
Speaker 1: advice or they've got the ability to help him. And
Speaker 1: I think that has been again, it's a learned skill.
Speaker 1: It's been built, learnt and built over since he was
Speaker 1: twenty years old till seventy. And that takes work. That
Speaker 1: takes the phone calls every week, the checking in every month,
Speaker 1: showing up when something's happened in their life, and so
Speaker 1: I think it takes a lot more effort than just
Speaker 1: this book a tennis court.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Thanks for listening. Everyone, drop in the comments,
Speaker 2: how you've been creating great friendships, what you're struggling with.
Speaker 2: You'll even connect with people in the comment section, which
Speaker 2: we'd love to see, and make sure you tag me
Speaker 2: on Instagram and TikTok me and Radi on what's resonated
Speaker 2: with you, what you're trying, and the great friendships that
Speaker 2: come from this. So thank you for listening. Hey everyone,
Speaker 2: if you love that conversation, go and check out my
Speaker 2: episode with the world's leading therapist Lurie Gottlieb, where she
Speaker 2: answers the biggest questions that people ask in therapy when
Speaker 2: it comes to love, relationships, heartbreak, and dating. If you're
Speaker 2: trying to figure out that space right now, you won't
Speaker 2: want to miss this conversation.
Speaker 1: If it's a romantic relationship, hold hands. It's really hard
Speaker 1: to argue.
Speaker 2: It actually calms your nervous systems. Just hold hands as
Speaker 2: you're having the conversation.
Speaker 1: It's so lovely.