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Speaker 1: Welcome to you stuff you should know from house stuff

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Speaker 1: Works dot com. Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm

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Speaker 1: Josh Clark. There's Charles Woody, Took Bryant. Get your imprinting

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Speaker 1: all over me? Stop? Is that? What is that what

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Speaker 1: I'm doing? Yeah, you're rubbing your feathers all over me

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Speaker 1: a feather duster that I'm tickling you with, bokeing me

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Speaker 1: with your beak. I'm not your parents, you know that's right?

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Speaker 1: Thank God. What a weird intro that was. Yeah, that

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Speaker 1: was a scene. That's called animal imprinting. I'm sure we've

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Speaker 1: talked about this before, but is it a scene or

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Speaker 1: end scene? Really? Joe ran dazzo to weigh in on

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Speaker 1: this one, but now we don't it's and scene. Um

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Speaker 1: sure comment. I'm positive we have talked about this, and

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Speaker 1: I know we have, but I don't remember the outcome. Well,

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Speaker 1: it was me saying it's a scene for sure, and

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Speaker 1: you're going, sure, that's why we're talking about it again. Okay,

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Speaker 1: it's antsen. So animal imprinting, it's a thing. It is.

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Speaker 1: It's uh in the strictest definition, it is only for birds. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and specific type of birds called precocial birds. Yeah, they're

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Speaker 1: very precocial exactly. That means that they hatch out the

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Speaker 1: egg and look around and start waddling, and they're like, oh, look,

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Speaker 1: this is water. I think I have this weird and

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Speaker 1: they urge to get in there and swim, and oh,

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Speaker 1: here's a little bit of duck food. I think I'll

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Speaker 1: eat some of that because I have a drive to

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Speaker 1: do that. But what is that wonderful smell? Oh? I

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Speaker 1: think this might be the duck that gave birth to

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Speaker 1: me or laid me as an egg, and now I'm

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Speaker 1: going to imprint myself on you. It's either that or

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Speaker 1: it's a grown human man. Yeah, it can't be anything,

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Speaker 1: especially with ducks, but especially specifically. Precocial birds have a

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Speaker 1: process where they form an attachment to a parent, and

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Speaker 1: it's been shown over time that that parent doesn't necessarily

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Speaker 1: have to be a biological parent. It can not even

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Speaker 1: be in the same species. It doesn't even have to

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Speaker 1: be a living thing. No, it can be a toy train, yes,

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Speaker 1: it can be, or a pair of gum boot yeah. Um.

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Speaker 1: And humans have known for a very long time about

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Speaker 1: this process. It just wasn't until like the nineteen hundreds

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Speaker 1: that we started to get a um a real grip

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Speaker 1: on it. But like apparently in UH, there's a Roman

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Speaker 1: treatise around I guess, like the thirties, in the real thirties,

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Speaker 1: I mean like thirty c E. Not no, like thirty

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Speaker 1: not the swing in thirties, UM, and it's it basically

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Speaker 1: says like, if you want to train some wild ducks,

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Speaker 1: go get yourself some duck eggs, put them under a

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Speaker 1: hen that you have domesticated, and that handle raised those

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Speaker 1: ducks is their own and they'll be unwild in UH.

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Speaker 1: In rural China, back in the day, rice farmers would

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Speaker 1: imprint new ducks with a stick so they could then

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Speaker 1: use that stick to guide them out to their rice

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Speaker 1: population where they would eat snails right the rice population.

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Speaker 1: So they literally following this stick around like it's their parents.

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Speaker 1: So they would lead them to UH to help to

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Speaker 1: work for them basically, And the whole thing is is

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Speaker 1: the stick was what they were introduced to at a

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Speaker 1: very specific time in their life, usually within a couple

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Speaker 1: of hours, and they said, stick, you're my mom. I'm

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Speaker 1: gonna follow you everywhere. When you're not around, we're gonna

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Speaker 1: freak out. It's so weird. Yeah, it's and and ducks

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Speaker 1: are a really great um. They're like a classic example

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Speaker 1: of imprinting because they're very emotional creatures um, And they

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Speaker 1: form very strong attachments, and they're very social creatures. So

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Speaker 1: either they're all those things because they form very strong

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Speaker 1: imprinted bonds, or they form very strong imprinted bonds because

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Speaker 1: of all those things. Yeah, well, I think it's a

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Speaker 1: natural selection at work. So that's the that's the at

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Speaker 1: the heart of this whole thing is you know, is

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Speaker 1: it nature versus nurture? And imprinting is a really great

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Speaker 1: natural experiment to investigate the whole thing. And what it

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Speaker 1: seems like we found is that it's both that apparently,

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Speaker 1: especially specifically precocial ducks are hardwired to go seek out

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Speaker 1: and form an attachment, but depending on what they encounter

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Speaker 1: at the time e g. Their environment, also known as nurture. UM,

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Speaker 1: they can form that attachment with a stick or a

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Speaker 1: toy train or a Nazi. It's very cute actually when

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Speaker 1: you think about it, you know, they're just like, love

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Speaker 1: me whatever, hand puppet. What was that Dr. Seuss book?

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Speaker 1: I think it was Love Me hand Puppet? I think

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Speaker 1: it was Are you My Mother? Like Horton makes an

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Speaker 1: appearance in it. It's like some animals walking around like

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Speaker 1: are you my mother? Yeah, it is pretty said, but

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Speaker 1: it's it's basically a doctor who's book about imprinting. Oh cool,

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Speaker 1: well you mentioned Nazis, so to me, that's my que

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Speaker 1: Two segue into the life of Conrad with A. K. Lawrence,

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Speaker 1: who was Austrian born at the turn of the century

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Speaker 1: in h three and um. He was big into animals

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Speaker 1: and he studied regular medicine and then decided this is great.

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Speaker 1: Humans are fun, but I'm really into studying animals and

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Speaker 1: their behaviors. That was his bag, so he became a zoologist.

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Speaker 1: He did. He got a PhD in nineteen thirty three

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Speaker 1: and started work alongside Oscar Heinroff, who was a fellow

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Speaker 1: scientist with what it was the Austrian or German. I'm

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Speaker 1: not sure, he's probably one of the two. Well, so

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Speaker 1: Lawrence is working, he's already established himself as a scientist

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Speaker 1: when the Nazis come marching into town and one of

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Speaker 1: the things, yeah, one of the things he had to

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Speaker 1: answer four years later when he won the nobe L

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Speaker 1: Prize for his imprinting work was his um zeal And

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Speaker 1: enthusiasm basically with which he welcomed the conquering Nazis yea,

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Speaker 1: and took his ideas about domestication and applied them to

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Speaker 1: the lens of Nazi theory. Yeah. Race, like Conrad Lawrence

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Speaker 1: was a racist in the purest and violist form of

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Speaker 1: the word. Yes, it's there's no escaping that. No. And

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Speaker 1: he uh, he flat out denied even being a party

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Speaker 1: member until it was proven, and then he was like, oh,

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Speaker 1: I was forgot about that membership, and he very much

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Speaker 1: tried to to wiggle his way out of that years later,

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Speaker 1: um by saying, you know, I think what how it

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Speaker 1: ends up is he's not the only academic that was

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Speaker 1: on the wrong side of history, and he came out

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Speaker 1: years later, so like, oh yeah, but I sort of

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Speaker 1: got swept up. I didn't really mean it in this way.

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Speaker 1: And science has kind of divided. Some people forgave him

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Speaker 1: and others did not. Yeah, and it's um, I think

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Speaker 1: science as a whole has forgiven him largely, like science

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Speaker 1: of the capitals. But there are plenty of scientists out

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Speaker 1: there who are like the guy was a Nazi and

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Speaker 1: he used his theories to help the Nazi regime, Like

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Speaker 1: He was a Nazi psychologist in Austria who um was

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Speaker 1: paid to examine um German Polish uh people, Yes, and

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Speaker 1: and basically determined that like the the um mating of

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Speaker 1: a German person and a Polish person produces undesirable offspring.

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Speaker 1: Well you throw that out into the Nazi void and

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Speaker 1: see what they do with that info. Yeah, they're not

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Speaker 1: gonna be mating with Polish people. So this guy is

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Speaker 1: is he was a an evolutionary theorist of a very

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Speaker 1: brilliant magnitude great zoologist, but also Nazi and a lot

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Speaker 1: of people calling a question like the work that he

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Speaker 1: produced um, but again, as a whole, science seems to

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Speaker 1: have forgiven him for the most part. Yeah, that's a

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Speaker 1: that's a great sort of a c o A. It's

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Speaker 1: more like the more you know type of thing you

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Speaker 1: got to make the star exactly. So uh that aside,

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Speaker 1: Let's get back to his work with Oscar Heinroth Um

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Speaker 1: they were contemporaries and heind Roth he was actually the

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Speaker 1: first dude, even though he didn't call it imprinting at

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Speaker 1: the time. He's the German word, Uh progun is that

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Speaker 1: how you say it? Yeah, like an a of the

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Speaker 1: newmout sort of you that's good, that's sounded Swedish chef. Though, yeah,

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Speaker 1: I'll probably get taken a task. But from my memory

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Speaker 1: of German and college, that's right on the money. So uh,

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Speaker 1: Like I said, he didn't call it imprinting at the time,

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Speaker 1: but he did study the gray lag geese and found

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Speaker 1: out that right out of the egg that they um

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Speaker 1: can attach to humans. And it was a big you know,

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Speaker 1: although they did in Rome and ancient China, Germans probably

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Speaker 1: thought they made it that up discovered it first. UM.

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Speaker 1: And another thing that Lawrence is criticized for, aside from

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Speaker 1: the Nazi affiliation, was that he was um. He very

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Speaker 1: readily made an anthrop what's called an anthropic shift, where

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Speaker 1: he took his findings about animals and was very eager

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Speaker 1: to extrapolate them onto humans as well, which some people

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Speaker 1: are like, whoa budd you haven't you haven't shown that

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Speaker 1: connection yet? You can't. That hadn't always work, No, but

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Speaker 1: there there has we'll see, like come to there's a

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Speaker 1: there's an understanding that yeah, there's something similar in humans

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Speaker 1: and other mammals too, as we'll talk about. Uh. So,

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Speaker 1: there was one experiment early on where he took some

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Speaker 1: goose eggs and separated them out into the control and

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Speaker 1: the experimental experimental group, and of course the experimental he

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Speaker 1: raised separate from the mother completely. All this sounds gonna

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Speaker 1: mean too, by the way. Yeah, so all imprinting experience

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Speaker 1: experiments are about as immoral as they get. Yeah, it's

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Speaker 1: like ripping the baby right out of the egg or

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Speaker 1: womb away from its mother, right and in saying like

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Speaker 1: to see what happens right like here, this gum boot

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Speaker 1: is your mother. Try growing up normal and socialized with

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Speaker 1: a gum boot for a mom. No, agreed, You know,

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Speaker 1: almost across the board, these animals, these are immoral, unethical experiments, agreed.

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Speaker 1: So the experimental geese only met with him, uh, not

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Speaker 1: the goose mom at all. And then eventually, to test

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Speaker 1: this out, what he did was he put them, uh,

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Speaker 1: he put the groups together, marked them, put him under

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Speaker 1: a box, and then basically sort of like the old

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Speaker 1: experience like Brady Bunch thing, to see who calls the dog,

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Speaker 1: which when the dog will come to He had someone

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Speaker 1: lift the box. He's on one side of the room,

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Speaker 1: the gooses on the other, and the ones who he

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Speaker 1: had raised came straight to him. Yeah, which all bet

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Speaker 1: when they lifted that box. It was adorable. A bunch

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Speaker 1: of confused duckling sticking around like what was that? Right?

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Speaker 1: You're my mommy Nazi man, right, the bearded nazis my mom. Uh.

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Speaker 1: So he finally named it filial filial imprinting. I think

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Speaker 1: filial filial imprinting. Yeah, And it's basically exactly what it

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Speaker 1: sounds like. It's that if you if you imprint, if

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Speaker 1: you introduced something or yourself to precocial bird at a

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Speaker 1: certain stage of development, it will say you're my parents. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: And he initially called that the critical period, right, is

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Speaker 1: the amount of time you had to do that? Yeah?

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Speaker 1: So he um his studies weren't quite as um like

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Speaker 1: well designed his later studies, but he basically said, like

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Speaker 1: he assumed, probably first ten minutes maybe an hour after

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Speaker 1: hatching is this critical period. And then he also took

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Speaker 1: it a step farther by saying it's irreversible. So once

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Speaker 1: once this duckling thinks the gum boot as its mom,

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Speaker 1: it's always going to be stuck with that duck until

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Speaker 1: you eat it. So Lawrence like really put a lot

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Speaker 1: out there, and he really moved evolutionary biology ahead to

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Speaker 1: a degree. Ethology is the field that he helped found. Um.

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Speaker 1: But we'll talk about some follow up studies that supported

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Speaker 1: and overturned some of his findings. Right after this, so

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Speaker 1: chuck Um, Lawrence comes up with filial imprinting right then

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Speaker 1: later studies in like the fifties and sixties, especially by

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Speaker 1: a guy named Eckhard Hess and Ao Ramsey who a

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Speaker 1: lab in Maryland specifically dedicated to studying animal imprinting, and

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Speaker 1: they had really great control conditions and they they really

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Speaker 1: refined Lawrence's findings. Yeah, and they studied Mallard ducklings again

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Speaker 1: with the ducks and um, they found that the most

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Speaker 1: sensitive period was thirteen to sixteen hours after hatching, which

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Speaker 1: was higher more hours than I think Lorenz had found. Correct. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: he he headed down to it like three or four hours,

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Speaker 1: right tops. Yeah, and this was I guess the ducklings

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Speaker 1: likes to have a little time to swim around and

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Speaker 1: get some food, maybe take a rest, and then they'll

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Speaker 1: start getting down to imprinting. Yeah, and he Um, I

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Speaker 1: thought this was super interesting. They also found that the

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Speaker 1: ducklings that had to go like jump through more hurdles

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Speaker 1: and go through more to find the parent formed a

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Speaker 1: stronger attachment. Just kind of makes sense, like you worked

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Speaker 1: harder for it. All right. I guess it's like that

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Speaker 1: Morrissey song. The more you ignore me, the closer I get. Man,

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Speaker 1: he's the best, the best, ye also the worst as

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Speaker 1: far as like canceling shows and like, I mean, dude,

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Speaker 1: cannot like I don't ever completed a full tour. There's

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Speaker 1: no way. It's like every Morrisey tour. Eventually, if you're

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Speaker 1: on the end of that tour, you might as well

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Speaker 1: not even have tickets because you're not gonna be seeing Morrisey. Alright,

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Speaker 1: that's my little soapbox about morris Finish your tour. That's right,

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Speaker 1: you mean I had that happened to us. You had

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Speaker 1: Morrisey tickets and see, ah was it recently? It was

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Speaker 1: in the last like two years. He should call every

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Speaker 1: tour like the Morrissey potential to potential tour or first

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Speaker 1: half tour. Uh So back to the ducklings. They also

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Speaker 1: found that, um, they would imprint onto little paper machee

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Speaker 1: that they made, which is very sweet colored balls, uh

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Speaker 1: colored more than the white ones, which is interesting. I

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Speaker 1: guess I don't know. They must react to color more.

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Speaker 1: Even though the vision wasn't really a part. I thought

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Speaker 1: it was just sound. It depends smell and touch. So

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Speaker 1: there's a um. There's a PBS Nature special called um

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Speaker 1: My Life as a Turkey, and it's about a researcher

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Speaker 1: who is studying animal imprinting and specifically with turkeys. Turkeys

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Speaker 1: have astounding vision, yeah, just amazing vision. Like they can spot, like, um,

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Speaker 1: a screw head from a football field away. That's small.

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Speaker 1: How do you know did they say screw head? Right? Well, yeah,

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Speaker 1: they're known for going and rooting out screw heads at

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Speaker 1: far long distances. They just stop point like a pig

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Speaker 1: within the truffles, right exactly, That's what turkeys are used for. Um.

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Speaker 1: But so turkey has very great vision, so I could

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Speaker 1: see color being an environmental cue. Smell, movement, touch. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's a big one al right. So another thing they

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Speaker 1: tried that did not work, which I thought was interesting

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Speaker 1: is going back even before they hatched and using auditory

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Speaker 1: cues in the egg and they found that didn't make

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Speaker 1: any difference. But it's a good thing to test. The

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Speaker 1: guy on the Nature thing though, found the opposite. Really yeah,

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Speaker 1: he um, he would talk turkey to the eggs. Oh

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Speaker 1: I thought he talked turkey once they were born. No,

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Speaker 1: he's while they were eggs. He talked turkey to get

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Speaker 1: them used to it, right, Yeah, and then that's pretty

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Speaker 1: good turkey. And then um, after that, uh, when they

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Speaker 1: were when they were hatched, they he talked turkey again

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Speaker 1: to them and apparently they came right over. But smells

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Speaker 1: also a big one too. The inside of the egg

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Speaker 1: probably smells a lot like the mom. Yeah, you know

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Speaker 1: that makes sense. So all these environmental cues add up

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Speaker 1: to what the what this little hatchling is basically mindlessly

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Speaker 1: following because again, all of this imprinting stuff has found

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Speaker 1: that animals at least are hardwired to go seek out

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Speaker 1: and form these these attachments. Yes, and they also found

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Speaker 1: that there that critical period was even longer when they

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Speaker 1: kept them isolated from birth. So they kept them completely

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Speaker 1: socially isolated, they would have up to twenty hours to imprint.

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Speaker 1: And this caused researcher name, oh boy, uh well, dav Slukan,

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Speaker 1: great name. He said, it's actually not a critical period.

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Speaker 1: Let's call it a sensitive period, right semantics if you

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Speaker 1: ask me. Yeah, but it makes a pretty good point.

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Speaker 1: It's basically saying like, this thing is not Yes, it

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Speaker 1: appears to be hardwired, but it's also malleable in the

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Speaker 1: face of nurture, in the face of the environment. It

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Speaker 1: can be postponed, it can be m altered. Uh, it's

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Speaker 1: not sure versus nurture. It's nature and nurture in conjunction

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Speaker 1: with one another. And so all of this filial imprinting

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Speaker 1: that Lawrence first identified and really started systematically studying, and

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Speaker 1: that was later carried on in birds um also led

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Speaker 1: to the discovery that birds also um imprint sexually as

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Speaker 1: well as fill, and depending on what they attached to

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Speaker 1: filially they will um. Their sexual attachments or sexual preferences

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Speaker 1: will also be altered later on in life. So, in

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Speaker 1: other words, a bird that is raised by a human

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Speaker 1: will eventually try and mate with humans, even in the

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Speaker 1: presence of other birds of that species. Crazy. Yes, And

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Speaker 1: the reason why they think is because um, the bird

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Speaker 1: is basically identifying with what it's taking as its own species. Right,

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Speaker 1: So it will say a, well, my parent is a human,

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Speaker 1: ergo I must be a human, and therefore I want

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Speaker 1: to get with a human. It's a very confused bird, right,

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Speaker 1: But there's something that they've also found that refines this

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Speaker 1: whole thing even further, and that is that sexual imprinting

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Speaker 1: is basically blocked. They're sexually blind, is what they call it,

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Speaker 1: to the person that raised them. So while they might

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Speaker 1: be attracted to humans, they're not going to be attracted

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Speaker 1: their human parent. And there's actually something which, um, we

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Speaker 1: should do an incest episode. I should, Um, that sounds

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Speaker 1: like it's you just pulled that out of thin air,

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Speaker 1: but it's remarkably similar. Yeah, there's something that's been noted

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Speaker 1: in humans called the Westmark effect, which we'll have to

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Speaker 1: do an incest episode. But super interesting, especially coming from like, um,

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Speaker 1: it's like a clinical standpoint of viewpoint. Yeah sure, and

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Speaker 1: not just like let's do a show on incests gross

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Speaker 1: the end, you know, look at it sociologically. That sounds

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Speaker 1: like a stuff. Uh. Back to the birds. Another interesting

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Speaker 1: finding here when they were when they studied the sexual imprinting.

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Speaker 1: Initially it was with jackdaws, which are sort of like crows,

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Speaker 1: and they found that there were different types of imprinting

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Speaker 1: occurring as they mature. So, in other words, one of

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Speaker 1: those jackdaws eight with humans flew with crows, but made

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Speaker 1: it with Jackdaws. Right, So that suggests that they were partying. Dude,

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Speaker 1: there are these um so well rounded jackdaws. But it

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Speaker 1: suggests that there are the the different sensitive periods rather

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Speaker 1: than just one right, fourteen to sixteen hours after hatch

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Speaker 1: hats right? Right? Um and it you maybe you have

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Speaker 1: a filial imprinting like pretty early on. That's the first one,

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Speaker 1: and then sexual imprinting comes after that. Who knows? Who knows? Um, Well,

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Speaker 1: we'll talk more about Remember I said Lawrence was accused

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Speaker 1: of making the anthropics shift a little too soon. Sure, well,

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Speaker 1: he was vindicated to a large extent. Because a lot

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Speaker 1: of this does apply to mammals as well. We'll talk

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Speaker 1: about that right after this. Before we talk about mammals.

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Speaker 1: Those this quote that I'm meant to read before the

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Speaker 1: last break, he talked about the guy who talked turkey,

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Speaker 1: Joe Hutto, and he has quote he said, um, when

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Speaker 1: the when the first pulse emerged, he made his turkey sound,

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Speaker 1: and as Joe recounts, the pulse turned his head, its

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Speaker 1: eyes met Joe's and quote, something very unambiguous happened in

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Speaker 1: that moment. Quote true love and the cute. It is cute,

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Speaker 1: but a little creepy. You know, he's like, you know,

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Speaker 1: we met, our eyes met, and it was and it

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Speaker 1: was unambiguous. Yeah, so anyway, sorry about it. I just

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Speaker 1: had to throw that in there. Nice Joe hutto turkey lover. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: go watch my life as a turkey pbs. Uh, let's

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Speaker 1: say turkey lover and jest he was a scientist. Oh yeah,

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Speaker 1: he's not a creep. No, creeps don't use boards like

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Speaker 1: unambiguous to describe connection. They say get in my van. Right. Alright,

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Speaker 1: So mammals UM, this is not exactly, strictly speaking imprinting,

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Speaker 1: but they've sort of expanded over the years of definition

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Speaker 1: to include, you know, like what happens if you rip

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Speaker 1: a monkey away from its mom, which has been done

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Speaker 1: yes by a guy named Harry Harlow in the fifties

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Speaker 1: and sixties, the more despicable scientists involved in animal testing.

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Speaker 1: As a matter of fact, Harlowe's tests with UM filial

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Speaker 1: imprinting among mammals and monkeys in particular UM led to

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Speaker 1: the animal rights movement. It definitely gave its steam and

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Speaker 1: a lot of public support after UM articles and news

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Speaker 1: stories were released about Harlow and when he was vilified,

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Speaker 1: he did not buckle under public opinion. He is very

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Speaker 1: famously quoted as who could ever love a monkey? Um?

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Speaker 1: Everybody but you. That's what he said in response to

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Speaker 1: being criticized, who could ever love a monkey? Like, what's

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Speaker 1: your problem? Idiots? It's a monkey? Yeah, that's yeah. I

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Speaker 1: don't get that. They shouldn't be in charge of running

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Speaker 1: tests about filial imprinting with monkeys. They can just sit

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Speaker 1: there on the sidelines and hate animals. Yeah, watch TV

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Speaker 1: or something. Yeah, I agreed. Um, watch what was the

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Speaker 1: broader movie about monkey desk Project X? Yeah that one,

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Speaker 1: just watch that on a loop. But the working title

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Speaker 1: was monkey see Monkey do Oh. You're probably right? Um,

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Speaker 1: all right, So back to mammals, right. Um. They did

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Speaker 1: some studies in the ninete nineties a researcher named Keith

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Speaker 1: Kendrick where they and this one doesn't seem like too

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Speaker 1: much of a stretch, they switched sheep and goats at birth,

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Speaker 1: and um, they were allowed contact social contact with their

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Speaker 1: own species, but they were raised by their adoptive parents,

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Speaker 1: like the baby sheep was raised by the goat, but

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Speaker 1: they were still allowed to commingle with other sheep. And

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Speaker 1: it still worked. It turned out that they preferred to

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Speaker 1: mate with the species of the adopted parent adopted mother.

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Speaker 1: But they also found very um remarkably or notably, that

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Speaker 1: it's reversible as well. Yes, they wanted to see how

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Speaker 1: it would hold upright, So once a year they would

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Speaker 1: bring them all back together, be like, mingo, have some

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Speaker 1: there's some cheese plate over there. They play a little music.

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Speaker 1: This is after right after they had removed them from

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Speaker 1: the opposite species, put them back with their own species,

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Speaker 1: and once a year they said, hey, remember those goats

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Speaker 1: that you like so much? Oh, it was like that

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Speaker 1: up okay. So, and what they found was that among

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Speaker 1: females we could say females because we're talking about a

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Speaker 1: different species um the females showed a preference. They reverted

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Speaker 1: to their intra species preference. So like they showed like

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Speaker 1: a sexual preference for their own species after about one

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Speaker 1: to three years after being returned. Yes, right, yes, but males,

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Speaker 1: even after three years of being um ming commingled again,

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Speaker 1: they still showed a preference for the species that they

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Speaker 1: did imprinted on. Yeah, they like the goats are still like,

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Speaker 1: oh man, I remember those sheep. And the sheep said

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Speaker 1: the same thing about the goats exactly where we can

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Speaker 1: go party sheep. Oh. I thought that was really interesting though,

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Speaker 1: how I mean, there's no explanation, I guess, but how

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Speaker 1: the females and the males reacted. You know, years later

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Speaker 1: males are stubborn. Yeah, I think maybe that's all. It

403
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Speaker 1: is not not quite as agile. There's another way to

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Speaker 1: put it. So that's cheapen goats. The experiments called the

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Speaker 1: old switchero um. Harry Harlowe did some experiments and he

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Speaker 1: actually um as mean as his experiments were, he actually

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Speaker 1: managed to basically disprove an ongoing debate that had been

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Speaker 1: ongoing up until that point, um whether or not you

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Speaker 1: form an attachment or animals form an attachment based on

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Speaker 1: classical conditioning or based on some sort of evolutionary mechanism.

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Speaker 1: And so the classical conditioning people said, no, no, all,

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Speaker 1: it's it's all about food. So the animal goes up

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Speaker 1: and imprints on whatever is giving it food. And what

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Speaker 1: it's doing is it's making an imprint an attachment with

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Speaker 1: the person that gives it food. So you're you're looking

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Speaker 1: for the food and you insert the person who gives

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Speaker 1: you the food, and then you can remove the food

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Speaker 1: and you still have the attachment to the person that

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Speaker 1: gave you the food. Classical conditioning just standard Freud stuff, Right,

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Speaker 1: I punched that button. Food cocaine comes out exactly lots

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Speaker 1: more skinnery, but yeah, conditioning. Um. So with Harlow's experiments,

422
00:27:37,760 --> 00:27:42,280
Speaker 1: he took monkeys, stripped them from their mothers in some cases,

423
00:27:42,359 --> 00:27:45,000
Speaker 1: let them get nice and attached to their mothers, and

424
00:27:45,040 --> 00:27:48,199
Speaker 1: then stripped them from their mothers. Had all sorts of

425
00:27:48,240 --> 00:27:52,480
Speaker 1: different designs, but basically the upshot was he introduced them

426
00:27:52,520 --> 00:27:56,560
Speaker 1: to two different mothers. They're both in animate objects. One

427
00:27:56,600 --> 00:28:01,680
Speaker 1: was a monkey mother made of like wire with like spikes.

428
00:28:02,040 --> 00:28:04,040
Speaker 1: They well, they referred to it as the iron Maiden.

429
00:28:04,640 --> 00:28:07,840
Speaker 1: But this one I had food. The other one was

430
00:28:07,960 --> 00:28:12,240
Speaker 1: a inanimate monkey mother who was made of terry cloth.

431
00:28:12,280 --> 00:28:14,120
Speaker 1: It was soft, a little bit like a teddy bear

432
00:28:14,359 --> 00:28:17,480
Speaker 1: monkey teddy bear, so to a monkey. All of these

433
00:28:17,480 --> 00:28:21,120
Speaker 1: monkeys showed a preference for the terry cloth monkey mother.

434
00:28:21,320 --> 00:28:23,960
Speaker 1: Of course, they would go to this wire monkey mother

435
00:28:24,119 --> 00:28:26,440
Speaker 1: when they were hungry and would eat and then would

436
00:28:26,480 --> 00:28:29,320
Speaker 1: immediately go back to the monkey mother. When Harry Harlow

437
00:28:29,400 --> 00:28:31,880
Speaker 1: came in, I was like, whoa who would scare them all.

438
00:28:32,119 --> 00:28:34,600
Speaker 1: They would all go over to the terry cloth mother.

439
00:28:34,840 --> 00:28:39,200
Speaker 1: So he basically showed that it's not food. By extension,

440
00:28:39,240 --> 00:28:44,480
Speaker 1: it's not classical conditioning. It's it's comfort. It's contact. It

441
00:28:44,560 --> 00:28:48,280
Speaker 1: may be physical protection, but apparently it is um. It's

442
00:28:48,360 --> 00:28:52,240
Speaker 1: it's contact. And to make an anthropic shift, you can

443
00:28:52,240 --> 00:28:55,440
Speaker 1: extrapolate that on humans too, because there's a drug called

444
00:28:55,480 --> 00:29:01,240
Speaker 1: oxytocin that is released UM, especially on skin to skin contact,

445
00:29:01,440 --> 00:29:05,200
Speaker 1: which is why touching and raising UM an infant and

446
00:29:05,280 --> 00:29:10,440
Speaker 1: holding an infant is extraordinarily important, not just for its development,

447
00:29:10,480 --> 00:29:14,760
Speaker 1: but also for establishing bonds and contact with with that kid. Yeah,

448
00:29:14,800 --> 00:29:18,160
Speaker 1: and especially uh for adoptive parents. They say a lot

449
00:29:18,200 --> 00:29:21,760
Speaker 1: of skin on skin contact as soon as possible is

450
00:29:21,840 --> 00:29:24,560
Speaker 1: key to establishing that bond. But that's really neat because

451
00:29:24,560 --> 00:29:30,240
Speaker 1: it means, like the the imprinting is all about. It

452
00:29:30,680 --> 00:29:34,200
Speaker 1: basically proves family is what you make of it, or

453
00:29:34,280 --> 00:29:38,880
Speaker 1: family is whatever you find is your family. It does

454
00:29:38,960 --> 00:29:43,640
Speaker 1: it's not this pre defined structure, it's from a from infancy.

455
00:29:43,720 --> 00:29:47,000
Speaker 1: It's whatever you make of Yeah, that's true. Uh, And

456
00:29:47,040 --> 00:29:50,600
Speaker 1: then you know Harlowe was like him less and less

457
00:29:50,720 --> 00:29:53,040
Speaker 1: the more you talk about him, But on the other

458
00:29:53,080 --> 00:29:55,000
Speaker 1: side of the spectrum, what we've learned through all this

459
00:29:55,080 --> 00:30:00,360
Speaker 1: research is if you work in wildlife conservation, UM, they're

460
00:30:00,400 --> 00:30:02,880
Speaker 1: not just willy nilly and how they handle animals anymore.

461
00:30:03,280 --> 00:30:06,880
Speaker 1: They go through great pains and efforts to uh. Like

462
00:30:07,040 --> 00:30:09,160
Speaker 1: we mentioned the hand puppet. You know, they have Operation

463
00:30:09,240 --> 00:30:13,000
Speaker 1: Condor where they will raise these baby condors who are abandoned,

464
00:30:13,040 --> 00:30:15,840
Speaker 1: and they would dress their their hand puppet up to

465
00:30:15,880 --> 00:30:18,560
Speaker 1: look like a mama condor to feed it and basically

466
00:30:18,560 --> 00:30:21,320
Speaker 1: to do everything they can do to make sure that

467
00:30:21,360 --> 00:30:24,000
Speaker 1: they can live a regular life in the wild. And

468
00:30:24,040 --> 00:30:26,920
Speaker 1: they're not looking for that iron spiked iron maiden in

469
00:30:26,960 --> 00:30:31,240
Speaker 1: the jungle. Uh. And even down to like migratory patterns,

470
00:30:31,240 --> 00:30:34,280
Speaker 1: they'll use like the ultra light planes to later teach

471
00:30:34,360 --> 00:30:36,680
Speaker 1: these birds and they will dress up the plane to

472
00:30:36,760 --> 00:30:40,600
Speaker 1: look like a condor or whatever, a duck and you

473
00:30:40,640 --> 00:30:44,200
Speaker 1: know fly uh, you know, the the migratory pattern that

474
00:30:44,240 --> 00:30:47,160
Speaker 1: they should that they should use the route and there's

475
00:30:47,280 --> 00:30:51,040
Speaker 1: one of the researchers is inside the glider and that's

476
00:30:51,320 --> 00:30:56,840
Speaker 1: a condor on the p a going phone. And the

477
00:30:56,880 --> 00:31:00,840
Speaker 1: cutest thing ever, UM they found out that in uh,

478
00:31:00,960 --> 00:31:04,560
Speaker 1: I think it was in Japan that pandas um didn't

479
00:31:04,560 --> 00:31:07,160
Speaker 1: do so well when they were handled by humans too young,

480
00:31:07,680 --> 00:31:12,240
Speaker 1: so now they were panda suits not adorable, Like you

481
00:31:12,280 --> 00:31:14,760
Speaker 1: go to work, you punch in, you put on your

482
00:31:14,800 --> 00:31:17,720
Speaker 1: panda suit and you cuddle with baby pandas well. That

483
00:31:17,880 --> 00:31:22,360
Speaker 1: and it's not just human contact that can screw up,

484
00:31:22,400 --> 00:31:25,800
Speaker 1: like say a panda um. What they found is one

485
00:31:25,800 --> 00:31:29,959
Speaker 1: of the things that Harlow found was that UM imprinting

486
00:31:30,520 --> 00:31:32,920
Speaker 1: has a lot to do with socialization, so that even

487
00:31:32,960 --> 00:31:35,920
Speaker 1: if you just stick a baby with the wire spiky

488
00:31:36,040 --> 00:31:39,600
Speaker 1: iron maiden monkey mother, but you give that monkey twenty

489
00:31:39,600 --> 00:31:42,280
Speaker 1: minutes a day to socialize with other monkeys, it should

490
00:31:42,280 --> 00:31:45,320
Speaker 1: turn out okay. But even if it has the terry

491
00:31:45,320 --> 00:31:48,040
Speaker 1: cloth mother and it's kept in isolation from other monkeys,

492
00:31:48,520 --> 00:31:53,360
Speaker 1: they in turn tend to make um inadequate mothers is

493
00:31:53,400 --> 00:31:56,040
Speaker 1: what they call them, where they just like neglect their

494
00:31:56,120 --> 00:31:58,920
Speaker 1: children or smack them around, or just do all sorts

495
00:31:58,920 --> 00:32:07,480
Speaker 1: of stuff because as their mother was inanimate object, unethical stuff. Yeah,

496
00:32:07,520 --> 00:32:09,080
Speaker 1: I feel like we owe the band Iron made in

497
00:32:09,120 --> 00:32:13,080
Speaker 1: a big apology. Yeah, they're like the bad name. Yeah,

498
00:32:13,120 --> 00:32:15,120
Speaker 1: Like this is just supposed to be a torture device,

499
00:32:16,440 --> 00:32:21,880
Speaker 1: not for animals for you, I do. There's a cute

500
00:32:21,920 --> 00:32:27,240
Speaker 1: salon slide show called twenty Heartwarming Stories of Inner Species Adoptions.

501
00:32:27,680 --> 00:32:30,600
Speaker 1: That's literally the best thing on the Internet in this

502
00:32:30,760 --> 00:32:33,000
Speaker 1: suite is when you find like a horse cuddling with

503
00:32:33,040 --> 00:32:36,720
Speaker 1: a puppy or raising it as its own. There's apparently

504
00:32:36,720 --> 00:32:41,040
Speaker 1: a lioness who's well known in a preserve somewhere for

505
00:32:41,160 --> 00:32:48,000
Speaker 1: um stealing antelope calves and not eating them, but raising

506
00:32:48,040 --> 00:32:51,680
Speaker 1: them as her own because she wants a kid. It's

507
00:32:51,800 --> 00:32:57,520
Speaker 1: it's unbelievable. Animals teaching us the way right. You know,

508
00:32:57,720 --> 00:33:00,640
Speaker 1: who could ever love a monkey? Like? Who cares what

509
00:33:00,680 --> 00:33:03,680
Speaker 1: you look like? Who cares what what? Who cares if

510
00:33:03,680 --> 00:33:06,960
Speaker 1: I'm meant to eat you? You know I'm gonna raise

511
00:33:07,000 --> 00:33:08,719
Speaker 1: you as my own? Yeah? Well they I think they

512
00:33:08,760 --> 00:33:12,360
Speaker 1: often display like true nurturing love more than a lot

513
00:33:12,360 --> 00:33:17,520
Speaker 1: of humans do. Uh. If you guys want to know

514
00:33:17,560 --> 00:33:19,520
Speaker 1: more about this kind of thing, you can type animal

515
00:33:19,560 --> 00:33:21,600
Speaker 1: imprinting in the search bar how stuff first dot com

516
00:33:21,800 --> 00:33:26,040
Speaker 1: and also go check out our classic episode animal domestication.

517
00:33:26,480 --> 00:33:29,560
Speaker 1: Good one, pretty good um, and you can find that

518
00:33:29,600 --> 00:33:31,560
Speaker 1: on stuff you Should Do dot com. And I said

519
00:33:31,600 --> 00:33:33,840
Speaker 1: search bar in there somewhere, so it's time for listener mail.

520
00:33:36,080 --> 00:33:41,680
Speaker 1: I'm gonna call this gang article recommendation. Hi guys, my

521
00:33:41,760 --> 00:33:44,160
Speaker 1: name is Ciarra. I just finished listening to How Street

522
00:33:44,160 --> 00:33:46,120
Speaker 1: Gangs Work. I thought it would offer a piece of

523
00:33:46,160 --> 00:33:48,600
Speaker 1: literature as a suggestion to people interested in reading more

524
00:33:49,000 --> 00:33:51,720
Speaker 1: about the subject. It's called Gang Leader for a Day

525
00:33:52,000 --> 00:33:56,200
Speaker 1: by stood here Vin Kates. It's a sociological approach to

526
00:33:56,200 --> 00:33:59,440
Speaker 1: street gangs in Chicago. Started out as a Harvard dissertation

527
00:33:59,520 --> 00:34:01,800
Speaker 1: with then to Cash, asking what's it like to be

528
00:34:01,840 --> 00:34:05,040
Speaker 1: poor and black, and turned into seven years of befriending

529
00:34:05,400 --> 00:34:08,200
Speaker 1: a crack dealing gang leader in the projects. It's a

530
00:34:08,320 --> 00:34:10,520
Speaker 1: really great read, very interesting to see a first person

531
00:34:10,560 --> 00:34:13,040
Speaker 1: account of gang life from someone who was not raised

532
00:34:13,040 --> 00:34:16,000
Speaker 1: in the community which gangs prevailed, especially when you learn

533
00:34:16,400 --> 00:34:20,200
Speaker 1: that gangs started to protect black people at its base level.

534
00:34:20,239 --> 00:34:22,799
Speaker 1: So even when you see the gang violence brought forth

535
00:34:22,800 --> 00:34:24,719
Speaker 1: in the book pages, you also get to see the

536
00:34:24,760 --> 00:34:28,120
Speaker 1: gang members doing everything they can to protect their community members.

537
00:34:28,680 --> 00:34:30,920
Speaker 1: Uh the name. There's a New York Times article if

538
00:34:30,920 --> 00:34:33,600
Speaker 1: you're interested about the book, called if you want to

539
00:34:33,640 --> 00:34:36,399
Speaker 1: Observe Them, Join Them. I think it was like two

540
00:34:36,400 --> 00:34:39,919
Speaker 1: thousand eight is but I read it's awesome, So thanks

541
00:34:39,920 --> 00:34:41,480
Speaker 1: for all the work you guys put into the episodes.

542
00:34:41,840 --> 00:34:45,040
Speaker 1: I love constantly learning something new, except for when it's

543
00:34:45,040 --> 00:34:50,279
Speaker 1: about space. I don't want to learn anything about space. Okay,

544
00:34:50,320 --> 00:34:53,840
Speaker 1: it'll make me lose my mind. We thank you, Sira,

545
00:34:54,200 --> 00:34:58,080
Speaker 1: Thank you. CIA's appreciate it. Go listen to our episode

546
00:34:58,080 --> 00:35:01,040
Speaker 1: on the Sun or the make most people lose their

547
00:35:01,080 --> 00:35:04,480
Speaker 1: minds elevator to the Moon or Mars or the Moon.

548
00:35:05,920 --> 00:35:08,520
Speaker 1: Got a lot of them about the space. She's like, yep,

549
00:35:08,640 --> 00:35:11,759
Speaker 1: I've avoided them all. Um. We want to know what

550
00:35:11,840 --> 00:35:15,920
Speaker 1: will make you lose your mind topic wise or actually

551
00:35:15,960 --> 00:35:18,400
Speaker 1: in general. Yeah, or if you've ever imprinted on the

552
00:35:18,719 --> 00:35:23,640
Speaker 1: something non human? There you go. You can send us

553
00:35:23,640 --> 00:35:26,920
Speaker 1: all that info via Twitter at s Y s K podcast.

554
00:35:26,960 --> 00:35:29,360
Speaker 1: You can join us on Facebook dot com slash stuff

555
00:35:29,360 --> 00:35:31,320
Speaker 1: you Should Know. You can send us an email to

556
00:35:31,480 --> 00:35:34,040
Speaker 1: Stuff Podcast at how stuff Works dot com and has

557
00:35:34,080 --> 00:35:36,560
Speaker 1: always joined us at our home on the web, Stuff

558
00:35:36,600 --> 00:35:43,759
Speaker 1: you Should Know dot com For more on this and

559
00:35:43,800 --> 00:35:46,319
Speaker 1: thousands of other topics. Is it how stuff Works dot

560
00:35:46,400 --> 00:35:53,800
Speaker 1: com