1 00:00:05,040 --> 00:00:07,480 Speaker 1: Hey, this is Annie and Samantha and welcome to Stephane. 2 00:00:07,560 --> 00:00:09,479 Speaker 1: Never told you protection of I heard Radios has Steff 3 00:00:09,480 --> 00:00:22,680 Speaker 1: works for our classic today we wanted to rerun one 4 00:00:23,000 --> 00:00:28,400 Speaker 1: about firefighting women. So my brother lives in California, one 5 00:00:28,400 --> 00:00:32,560 Speaker 1: of them. He's been unaffected as as last I heard 6 00:00:32,560 --> 00:00:34,880 Speaker 1: from him, but he says he can see the smoke 7 00:00:35,560 --> 00:00:40,080 Speaker 1: of the fires there, and I just it feels like 8 00:00:40,120 --> 00:00:44,800 Speaker 1: this happens every year now, um, and the news coverage 9 00:00:44,800 --> 00:00:47,720 Speaker 1: always access though like Lebron James or had the move 10 00:00:48,159 --> 00:00:52,360 Speaker 1: like Brich people are the only people being impacted. But 11 00:00:52,720 --> 00:00:55,920 Speaker 1: so many people are being impacted by these these fires, um. 12 00:00:55,960 --> 00:00:58,640 Speaker 1: And they are scary, and they're dangerous, and they spread 13 00:00:59,080 --> 00:01:05,399 Speaker 1: really quickly likely So the season was the deadliest and 14 00:01:05,520 --> 00:01:09,759 Speaker 1: most devastating fire season in California's history, with the loss 15 00:01:09,800 --> 00:01:13,680 Speaker 1: of over one hundred lives, according to California Department of 16 00:01:13,760 --> 00:01:16,560 Speaker 1: Forestry and Fire Protection. Climate change is one of the 17 00:01:16,560 --> 00:01:20,040 Speaker 1: main factors behind the increased incident rate and deadliness of 18 00:01:20,080 --> 00:01:23,720 Speaker 1: these fires, and due to warmer temperatures decreased snowpack in 19 00:01:23,800 --> 00:01:26,680 Speaker 1: earlier snow melts, the fire season is now seventy five 20 00:01:26,840 --> 00:01:31,120 Speaker 1: days longer. Right, now this is what's going on in 21 00:01:31,160 --> 00:01:35,360 Speaker 1: the twenty nineteenth season. So about two hundred thousand acres 22 00:01:35,880 --> 00:01:38,920 Speaker 1: have been estimated to have been burned, UM six thousand, 23 00:01:38,959 --> 00:01:44,120 Speaker 1: one nine incidents UM, three fatalities, and seven structures damaged 24 00:01:44,360 --> 00:01:47,280 Speaker 1: or destroyed. And this I got these numbers. Probably by 25 00:01:47,319 --> 00:01:50,240 Speaker 1: the time you've heard this, it's been a couple of weeks, UM, 26 00:01:50,320 --> 00:01:55,120 Speaker 1: so the situation has probably got worse. UM. Hundreds of 27 00:01:55,160 --> 00:01:58,200 Speaker 1: thousands of people have been evacuated from their homes. So 28 00:01:58,960 --> 00:02:01,160 Speaker 1: I just wanted to say thank you to all the 29 00:02:01,160 --> 00:02:03,800 Speaker 1: firefighters out there for doing the work that you do, 30 00:02:04,280 --> 00:02:07,040 Speaker 1: and that we hope that all of our listeners are 31 00:02:07,320 --> 00:02:11,240 Speaker 1: safe and um. Yeah, here's this classic episode on the 32 00:02:11,320 --> 00:02:18,519 Speaker 1: history of women in firefighting. Welcome to Stuff Mom Never 33 00:02:18,560 --> 00:02:26,880 Speaker 1: told You from how stupp Works dot com. Hello, and 34 00:02:26,960 --> 00:02:29,680 Speaker 1: welcome to the podcast. I'm Kristen and I'm Caroline, and 35 00:02:29,800 --> 00:02:34,919 Speaker 1: today we were talking about firefighting women because even though 36 00:02:34,919 --> 00:02:39,400 Speaker 1: they're around all year, it's peak fire season in January, 37 00:02:39,480 --> 00:02:42,480 Speaker 1: these cold winter months, that's right, I mean people running 38 00:02:42,480 --> 00:02:44,919 Speaker 1: their space theaters and their generators and whatnot. It gets 39 00:02:45,000 --> 00:02:47,760 Speaker 1: dangerous and you want capable people to be coming to 40 00:02:47,840 --> 00:02:50,840 Speaker 1: your aid. That's right, But if a fire breaks out, 41 00:02:51,360 --> 00:02:54,359 Speaker 1: chances are that the people coming to your aid are 42 00:02:54,440 --> 00:02:58,119 Speaker 1: probably going to be guys. Because only three point four 43 00:02:58,240 --> 00:03:03,760 Speaker 1: percent of firefighters are women, which is far lower than 44 00:03:04,360 --> 00:03:09,000 Speaker 1: workplace statistics would project for that type of sector. Right, 45 00:03:09,040 --> 00:03:11,040 Speaker 1: And I mean women actually make up a good chunk 46 00:03:11,120 --> 00:03:13,920 Speaker 1: of like emergency services. I mean I think they're about 47 00:03:13,960 --> 00:03:17,720 Speaker 1: twenty which is not great, but it's definitely higher than 48 00:03:17,880 --> 00:03:21,400 Speaker 1: three point four percent. And so before we get into 49 00:03:21,639 --> 00:03:23,760 Speaker 1: why there are so few women, let's look at some 50 00:03:23,800 --> 00:03:25,960 Speaker 1: of the women who have been firefighters and some of 51 00:03:25,960 --> 00:03:29,320 Speaker 1: those trailblazers. Well, the very first trailblazer we have to 52 00:03:29,360 --> 00:03:32,280 Speaker 1: talk about is a woman named Molly Williams who is 53 00:03:32,320 --> 00:03:36,120 Speaker 1: recognized as the first known female firefighter in the United States. 54 00:03:36,200 --> 00:03:40,000 Speaker 1: And she was a slave who belonged to a merchant 55 00:03:40,120 --> 00:03:43,560 Speaker 1: named Benjamin Amar, and they lived in New York City, 56 00:03:43,760 --> 00:03:49,200 Speaker 1: and Amar was associated with the Oceanus Engine Company number eleven, 57 00:03:49,280 --> 00:03:53,600 Speaker 1: and Molly Williams became known as volunteer number eleven because 58 00:03:53,600 --> 00:03:56,440 Speaker 1: I guess she went with a mar when he would 59 00:03:56,480 --> 00:04:00,600 Speaker 1: be working at this fire department, right, and ring a 60 00:04:00,680 --> 00:04:04,119 Speaker 1: particularly nasty eighteen eighteen blizzard when a lot of men 61 00:04:04,200 --> 00:04:08,720 Speaker 1: had the flu. Williams joined in to help and pulled 62 00:04:08,760 --> 00:04:11,920 Speaker 1: the giant heavy pump through the snow, wearing nothing but 63 00:04:12,000 --> 00:04:14,600 Speaker 1: her calico dress and a checked apron. And there are 64 00:04:14,640 --> 00:04:18,560 Speaker 1: all of these children's books now about Molly Williams, and 65 00:04:18,839 --> 00:04:22,680 Speaker 1: it's lauded that, you know, she came out in this blizzard. 66 00:04:22,760 --> 00:04:25,400 Speaker 1: She was wearing just a calico dress and a checked apron, 67 00:04:25,839 --> 00:04:28,800 Speaker 1: and when you read about it, it's it's usually this 68 00:04:29,120 --> 00:04:31,640 Speaker 1: in a very chipper tone, of this woman who was 69 00:04:31,680 --> 00:04:35,719 Speaker 1: in the blizzard fighting fires. But when I was reading 70 00:04:35,760 --> 00:04:39,360 Speaker 1: this Caroline, the first thought in my head was, did 71 00:04:39,400 --> 00:04:42,120 Speaker 1: Molly Williams really want to be putting out these fires 72 00:04:42,160 --> 00:04:45,560 Speaker 1: during a blizzard and nothing but a calico dress. I 73 00:04:45,680 --> 00:04:47,880 Speaker 1: have a feeling she probably did not, right, because it 74 00:04:47,920 --> 00:04:50,960 Speaker 1: seems sort of glossed over that Oh wait, No, this 75 00:04:51,000 --> 00:04:57,200 Speaker 1: woman was actually enslaved by this merchant who was probably 76 00:04:57,480 --> 00:05:00,679 Speaker 1: making her do this, because there was one quote from 77 00:05:00,720 --> 00:05:04,599 Speaker 1: her basically saying, listen, I kind of have to do 78 00:05:04,680 --> 00:05:08,840 Speaker 1: whatever this amar guy tells me to do, because yeah, 79 00:05:08,880 --> 00:05:13,320 Speaker 1: slavery hello. Yeah. So not to cast a dismal light 80 00:05:13,640 --> 00:05:16,440 Speaker 1: on the first female firefighter in the United States, because 81 00:05:17,080 --> 00:05:18,800 Speaker 1: it's It's cool that she's the first, but at the 82 00:05:18,839 --> 00:05:22,640 Speaker 1: same time it's sort of tainted by the reasons surrounding 83 00:05:22,680 --> 00:05:27,119 Speaker 1: why she was the more negative circumstances. Yeah, But moving 84 00:05:27,160 --> 00:05:31,040 Speaker 1: on from Williams's service, there were plenty of other women 85 00:05:31,120 --> 00:05:37,920 Speaker 1: who volunteered on their own throughout the early twentieth century. Yeah, 86 00:05:37,920 --> 00:05:40,840 Speaker 1: and even way before that. The earliest women firefighters were 87 00:05:40,839 --> 00:05:44,640 Speaker 1: actually volunteers in urban and small town settings, dating back 88 00:05:44,640 --> 00:05:48,720 Speaker 1: to the eighteen hundreds at least, and as we move forward, 89 00:05:48,800 --> 00:05:52,520 Speaker 1: women have worked as fire lookouts since the early nineteen hundreds, 90 00:05:52,960 --> 00:05:56,680 Speaker 1: chiefs of volunteer fire department since at least the nineteen thirties, 91 00:05:56,720 --> 00:06:00,520 Speaker 1: and beginning in the mid nineteen seventies, seasonal fire fighters 92 00:06:00,560 --> 00:06:04,720 Speaker 1: in the wild lands sector a k a. Forest fires. Yeah, 93 00:06:04,800 --> 00:06:07,640 Speaker 1: and over at PBS we found a pretty comprehensive timeline 94 00:06:08,000 --> 00:06:12,799 Speaker 1: of some of those earlier nineteenth century trailblazers in addition 95 00:06:12,880 --> 00:06:16,320 Speaker 1: to Molly Williams. For instance, if we leave New York 96 00:06:16,360 --> 00:06:19,920 Speaker 1: City where Molly Williams was and head over to Pittsburgh 97 00:06:20,000 --> 00:06:23,159 Speaker 1: in the eighteen twenties, you have Marina Betts, who was 98 00:06:23,520 --> 00:06:28,039 Speaker 1: a volunteer firefighter who served for about ten years and 99 00:06:28,080 --> 00:06:30,520 Speaker 1: she was said to have never missed an alarm during 100 00:06:30,560 --> 00:06:34,560 Speaker 1: all of her service, and especially liked this tactic of hers, 101 00:06:34,880 --> 00:06:39,520 Speaker 1: which was pouring buckets of water on mail bystanders at 102 00:06:39,839 --> 00:06:43,160 Speaker 1: fire scenes. Yeah, guys who weren't helping out, she would 103 00:06:43,200 --> 00:06:46,000 Speaker 1: douse them. Yeah, Yeah, that would probably get me on 104 00:06:46,040 --> 00:06:49,400 Speaker 1: the move, probably a wave away from the end um. 105 00:06:49,440 --> 00:06:53,520 Speaker 1: And then we have Adelaide von buck how she volunteered 106 00:06:53,560 --> 00:06:56,920 Speaker 1: during a fire outbreak in eight and eventually was voted 107 00:06:57,000 --> 00:06:59,720 Speaker 1: into the membership of the Atlantic City Fire Department in 108 00:06:59,839 --> 00:07:02,800 Speaker 1: night teeno four after helping out with a bucket brigade. 109 00:07:03,080 --> 00:07:06,400 Speaker 1: And she is still the only female member of that 110 00:07:06,520 --> 00:07:08,799 Speaker 1: fire department. Yeah. And I think one of the reasons 111 00:07:08,839 --> 00:07:11,239 Speaker 1: too that she was eventually voted into the fire department 112 00:07:11,320 --> 00:07:14,680 Speaker 1: is that she married a guy who worked there too. 113 00:07:15,360 --> 00:07:20,360 Speaker 1: But yeah, still nineteen o four Componalytics City, what's happening? Uh? 114 00:07:21,040 --> 00:07:25,040 Speaker 1: Moving on though. In eighteen seventy eight, across the pond, 115 00:07:25,640 --> 00:07:29,200 Speaker 1: students at the all female Girton College near Cambridge in 116 00:07:29,240 --> 00:07:33,800 Speaker 1: the UK formed a bucket Brigade that existed until nineteen 117 00:07:33,880 --> 00:07:36,840 Speaker 1: thirty two. And that might sound like, oh, some ladies 118 00:07:36,840 --> 00:07:39,240 Speaker 1: got together and formed a bucket brigade, no big deal. 119 00:07:39,440 --> 00:07:43,120 Speaker 1: But actually there was this problem on the Girton College 120 00:07:43,120 --> 00:07:47,960 Speaker 1: campus where they had no way to put out fires 121 00:07:47,960 --> 00:07:50,119 Speaker 1: at buildings because I think their pump system was broken 122 00:07:50,240 --> 00:07:53,200 Speaker 1: or something like that. So it was almost an engineering 123 00:07:53,200 --> 00:07:56,680 Speaker 1: problem that these students got together and solved to figure 124 00:07:56,680 --> 00:08:01,400 Speaker 1: out how to institute some sort of fire safety measure. 125 00:08:01,480 --> 00:08:03,640 Speaker 1: So it was it was a pretty significant thing to 126 00:08:03,680 --> 00:08:07,800 Speaker 1: these that this bucket brigade was. Man, how many fires 127 00:08:07,800 --> 00:08:10,239 Speaker 1: are these people putting out? I wonder, just stop catching 128 00:08:10,320 --> 00:08:12,920 Speaker 1: things on fire. Well, they were probably tons of fires. 129 00:08:13,000 --> 00:08:16,320 Speaker 1: And in the nineteenth century before you have central eating, 130 00:08:16,680 --> 00:08:19,800 Speaker 1: that's right, You're probably right. Smokey the bear was not 131 00:08:19,920 --> 00:08:23,720 Speaker 1: around at that time. Caroline um Well, in you have 132 00:08:23,840 --> 00:08:27,320 Speaker 1: Carrie Rockefeller chosen as a regular member of Engine Company 133 00:08:27,400 --> 00:08:30,920 Speaker 1: number one in West Haven, Connecticut, quote for her valuable 134 00:08:31,000 --> 00:08:34,520 Speaker 1: services and helping to pull the apparatus, which sounds like 135 00:08:35,760 --> 00:08:38,920 Speaker 1: but no, she was. She was rewarded for her very 136 00:08:38,960 --> 00:08:42,200 Speaker 1: good work. Yeah. And uh, in the nineteen tens, I 137 00:08:42,280 --> 00:08:44,360 Speaker 1: kind of like what was going on in Los Angeles 138 00:08:44,480 --> 00:08:47,400 Speaker 1: with the fire departments, because, as we will talk about 139 00:08:47,720 --> 00:08:50,280 Speaker 1: later in the podcast, it's and start contrast to the 140 00:08:50,320 --> 00:08:54,199 Speaker 1: situation with women in firefighting today in l A. But 141 00:08:54,320 --> 00:08:57,559 Speaker 1: at the time there was a lack of available men 142 00:08:57,679 --> 00:09:02,400 Speaker 1: during daytime working hours, and so during the early twentieth century, 143 00:09:02,440 --> 00:09:05,640 Speaker 1: the male chief of the fire department in l A 144 00:09:06,040 --> 00:09:10,880 Speaker 1: was encouraging women to volunteer, and so you have in 145 00:09:11,000 --> 00:09:14,120 Speaker 1: nineteen twelve, for instance, Captain Marie Stack, who heads up 146 00:09:14,440 --> 00:09:17,360 Speaker 1: an all female brigade in the l A Fire Department. 147 00:09:17,640 --> 00:09:21,439 Speaker 1: And there were other all female brigades that popped up 148 00:09:21,480 --> 00:09:24,160 Speaker 1: in Los Angeles as well, one of which was called 149 00:09:24,200 --> 00:09:28,400 Speaker 1: something like the Society Brigade, and it was literally like 150 00:09:28,520 --> 00:09:31,800 Speaker 1: ladies who lunch, like wealthy women who this was their 151 00:09:31,880 --> 00:09:36,720 Speaker 1: little hobby of just getting together and putting fires out. Yeah, 152 00:09:37,280 --> 00:09:39,440 Speaker 1: it's like a posh thing to do. And if they 153 00:09:39,440 --> 00:09:42,800 Speaker 1: would take off their white gloves first, oh, I imagine. 154 00:09:43,040 --> 00:09:46,560 Speaker 1: You know what, though, they probably had paid help who 155 00:09:46,600 --> 00:09:49,880 Speaker 1: actually did the dirty word, probably right, So cynical, we 156 00:09:49,920 --> 00:09:52,440 Speaker 1: are very Yeah, it's kind of cynical. I don't know. 157 00:09:52,480 --> 00:09:56,559 Speaker 1: It didn't stay around too long, but for a short 158 00:09:56,559 --> 00:09:59,599 Speaker 1: while they're in Los Angeles, women putting out fires was 159 00:09:59,640 --> 00:10:02,240 Speaker 1: all the age. Yeah, it was a common thing. Well, 160 00:10:02,280 --> 00:10:06,320 Speaker 1: then let's look at the transition from UM just volunteer service, 161 00:10:06,440 --> 00:10:09,120 Speaker 1: not to poo poo that, but into actual careers and 162 00:10:09,160 --> 00:10:12,480 Speaker 1: paid service UM. In nineteen twenty six, you have fifty 163 00:10:12,520 --> 00:10:15,400 Speaker 1: year old Emma Vernal who became the first woman officially 164 00:10:15,440 --> 00:10:20,080 Speaker 1: recognized as a firefighter in New Jersey and then higher 165 00:10:20,200 --> 00:10:23,400 Speaker 1: up the ranks in firefighting in nineteen thirty one, and 166 00:10:23,720 --> 00:10:28,520 Speaker 1: Crawford Alan Host became the first female fire chief when 167 00:10:28,559 --> 00:10:32,400 Speaker 1: she became chief of the Cedar Hill, Rhode Island Fire Department. 168 00:10:33,240 --> 00:10:35,720 Speaker 1: And when we get into World War Two, as with 169 00:10:35,840 --> 00:10:38,120 Speaker 1: a lot of other male dominated fields, you have a 170 00:10:38,160 --> 00:10:42,160 Speaker 1: lot of women entering fire departments, both volunteer and like 171 00:10:42,360 --> 00:10:46,240 Speaker 1: main fire departments in cities to take over the work 172 00:10:46,240 --> 00:10:49,679 Speaker 1: that men left behind after the war. The first women 173 00:10:49,920 --> 00:10:52,800 Speaker 1: known to have been paid for fire suppression services were 174 00:10:52,960 --> 00:10:55,599 Speaker 1: the wild land firefighting crews working for the US for 175 00:10:55,720 --> 00:10:58,240 Speaker 1: a Service and the Bureau of Land Management. But when 176 00:10:58,280 --> 00:11:01,640 Speaker 1: it comes to municipal fire services, like the people who 177 00:11:01,720 --> 00:11:04,480 Speaker 1: you'd call if a fire broke out at your house, 178 00:11:05,200 --> 00:11:10,480 Speaker 1: the progress has been even still much slower. Although you 179 00:11:10,520 --> 00:11:13,120 Speaker 1: have a lot of movement starting to happen in the 180 00:11:13,240 --> 00:11:16,320 Speaker 1: nineteen sixties and seventies. In fact, there were some all 181 00:11:16,360 --> 00:11:20,040 Speaker 1: women fire companies that sprang up in King County, California 182 00:11:20,080 --> 00:11:23,720 Speaker 1: and Woodbine, Texas in the sixties, and by the seventies 183 00:11:24,000 --> 00:11:26,679 Speaker 1: it was becoming slightly more common for women to join 184 00:11:26,720 --> 00:11:30,360 Speaker 1: the ranks of regular volunteer fire departments and working side 185 00:11:30,360 --> 00:11:33,160 Speaker 1: by side with male peers. This is when you start 186 00:11:33,200 --> 00:11:36,400 Speaker 1: to see a lot of first and also a lot 187 00:11:36,480 --> 00:11:41,559 Speaker 1: of women more forcibly pushing their way into fire departments 188 00:11:41,600 --> 00:11:44,480 Speaker 1: because they weren't always welcomed with open arms. Oh yeah, 189 00:11:44,480 --> 00:11:47,640 Speaker 1: that's an understatement. Um. In nineteen seventy four, you have 190 00:11:47,720 --> 00:11:51,400 Speaker 1: Judy Brewer, who becomes the first paid career female firefighter 191 00:11:51,400 --> 00:11:55,040 Speaker 1: in Arlington County, Virginia, and she was quoted by mpr 192 00:11:55,160 --> 00:11:57,320 Speaker 1: IS saying, when I apply to my local fire station 193 00:11:57,360 --> 00:11:59,880 Speaker 1: to volunteer in Fairfax County, I was told essentially to 194 00:12:00,120 --> 00:12:02,160 Speaker 1: go back to my kitchen. It was no place for 195 00:12:02,200 --> 00:12:05,760 Speaker 1: a woman. And this situation is hardly unique to Brewer. 196 00:12:05,880 --> 00:12:08,319 Speaker 1: I mean, this story gets told over and over again. 197 00:12:08,720 --> 00:12:11,400 Speaker 1: And then the following year, in nineteen seven, we have 198 00:12:11,600 --> 00:12:14,719 Speaker 1: then last student, Brenda Berkman, who's living in New York 199 00:12:14,760 --> 00:12:19,320 Speaker 1: City who notices that the Fire Department of New York 200 00:12:19,400 --> 00:12:22,760 Speaker 1: is accepting applicants. And at this point f d n 201 00:12:22,960 --> 00:12:27,120 Speaker 1: Y is under pressure from the court to diversify. So 202 00:12:27,480 --> 00:12:30,120 Speaker 1: what the fire Department was doing was actively trying to 203 00:12:30,200 --> 00:12:34,959 Speaker 1: recruit black men. But Berkman thought, hey, you know what, 204 00:12:35,360 --> 00:12:38,200 Speaker 1: I think that they also need to diversify in terms 205 00:12:38,360 --> 00:12:43,000 Speaker 1: of gender. So she wants to get a group of 206 00:12:43,040 --> 00:12:46,800 Speaker 1: women to apply to be firefighters. And they do. I 207 00:12:46,800 --> 00:12:49,800 Speaker 1: think it was like five women or something applied in 208 00:12:49,840 --> 00:12:54,920 Speaker 1: this massive recruitment effort in the late seventies. But guess 209 00:12:54,920 --> 00:12:59,800 Speaker 1: what they all failed. Yeah, they most of them passed 210 00:13:00,040 --> 00:13:04,280 Speaker 1: the actual examination, the test, the written test, but they 211 00:13:04,280 --> 00:13:08,079 Speaker 1: all failed the physical examination. And so in ninety Berkman 212 00:13:08,120 --> 00:13:11,080 Speaker 1: brings a gender discrimination lawsuit against the New York Fire 213 00:13:11,120 --> 00:13:13,760 Speaker 1: Department under the Civil Rights Act after all of those 214 00:13:13,800 --> 00:13:17,199 Speaker 1: women had women had failed, saying that the test had 215 00:13:17,200 --> 00:13:21,280 Speaker 1: been retooled and based off of the current male firefighters abilities, 216 00:13:21,480 --> 00:13:25,200 Speaker 1: and to set off a huge media firestorm because first 217 00:13:25,240 --> 00:13:28,320 Speaker 1: of all, people just didn't think that women should be 218 00:13:28,400 --> 00:13:31,880 Speaker 1: allowed to professionally fight fires. There didn't seem to be 219 00:13:31,880 --> 00:13:34,520 Speaker 1: a huge pushback against women who might want to volunteer, 220 00:13:34,800 --> 00:13:39,160 Speaker 1: but actually having something a place like the New York 221 00:13:39,400 --> 00:13:43,280 Speaker 1: Fire department, which is one of, if not the largest 222 00:13:43,400 --> 00:13:46,840 Speaker 1: municipal fire department in the nation, starting to accept women 223 00:13:47,320 --> 00:13:49,959 Speaker 1: just seemed wrong. I mean, when when all of those 224 00:13:50,000 --> 00:13:55,280 Speaker 1: women failed that test in ninety eight, one of the 225 00:13:55,280 --> 00:13:58,400 Speaker 1: headlines from that in the Daily News in New York, 226 00:13:58,400 --> 00:14:00,880 Speaker 1: which is a paper that's no longer an instance, was 227 00:14:01,640 --> 00:14:04,480 Speaker 1: ninety fems flop fire tests and one sizzles. I mean, 228 00:14:04,480 --> 00:14:07,440 Speaker 1: there were all these puns about, like, you know how 229 00:14:07,600 --> 00:14:11,240 Speaker 1: they're they're just waiting essentially for women to fail. And 230 00:14:11,320 --> 00:14:15,880 Speaker 1: so when Berkman decided to bring this lawsuit, people weren't happy, 231 00:14:15,960 --> 00:14:19,760 Speaker 1: and the fire union was not happy either, right, I mean, 232 00:14:20,160 --> 00:14:23,320 Speaker 1: Brenda Bergman gave an interview with Makers on PBS which 233 00:14:23,360 --> 00:14:26,040 Speaker 1: is so interesting and so heartbreaking, and some of the 234 00:14:26,080 --> 00:14:28,600 Speaker 1: images that they showed during the interview are, you know, 235 00:14:28,640 --> 00:14:31,000 Speaker 1: people holding up signs saying I want to be saved 236 00:14:31,000 --> 00:14:33,880 Speaker 1: by a fireman and a bumper sticker that says, don't 237 00:14:33,960 --> 00:14:36,840 Speaker 1: send in a girl to do a man's job over 238 00:14:36,880 --> 00:14:40,040 Speaker 1: and over. I mean, the the abuse that Berkman describes 239 00:14:40,120 --> 00:14:43,640 Speaker 1: that she and her fellow female firefighters underwent in the 240 00:14:43,640 --> 00:14:46,560 Speaker 1: New York Fire Department is insane. I just I can't 241 00:14:46,560 --> 00:14:49,200 Speaker 1: imagine going through anything like that. Well, and it wasn't 242 00:14:49,240 --> 00:14:53,960 Speaker 1: only men who were leaving the charge against this civil 243 00:14:54,040 --> 00:14:56,600 Speaker 1: rights lawsuit either. I mean there were plenty of women 244 00:14:56,840 --> 00:14:59,680 Speaker 1: who are saying, no, we want don't. Don't send a 245 00:14:59,680 --> 00:15:01,480 Speaker 1: girl to to a man's work, that kind of thing. 246 00:15:01,840 --> 00:15:05,080 Speaker 1: And one of the quotes from that interview with Makers 247 00:15:05,200 --> 00:15:07,680 Speaker 1: that Berkman gave was, when I first came on the 248 00:15:07,760 --> 00:15:10,560 Speaker 1: job twenty three years ago, fighting fires was the easiest 249 00:15:10,560 --> 00:15:12,600 Speaker 1: part of the job for me. Much harder was dealing 250 00:15:12,640 --> 00:15:15,560 Speaker 1: with the hatred and discrimination that some male firefighters had 251 00:15:15,560 --> 00:15:18,040 Speaker 1: for me. And now many of the initial problems f 252 00:15:18,120 --> 00:15:22,680 Speaker 1: D and Y women firefighters encountered have improved, um, But 253 00:15:22,760 --> 00:15:25,400 Speaker 1: it took a long time for that lawsuit to actually 254 00:15:25,440 --> 00:15:28,080 Speaker 1: make its way through the court, right, Yeah, And she 255 00:15:28,240 --> 00:15:31,680 Speaker 1: was saying that UM men around her at that time 256 00:15:31,760 --> 00:15:35,320 Speaker 1: were voicing opinions like, okay, feminism has gone too far. 257 00:15:35,720 --> 00:15:38,320 Speaker 1: Second way feminism, you know this is a joke now, 258 00:15:38,440 --> 00:15:41,560 Speaker 1: like you want to be in every single facet of society, 259 00:15:41,640 --> 00:15:43,760 Speaker 1: Like that's ridiculous. You're a woman. There are just some 260 00:15:43,800 --> 00:15:47,160 Speaker 1: things you should leave it to men. And Burkman was saying, no, 261 00:15:47,360 --> 00:15:49,520 Speaker 1: I this is what I have dreamed of doing since 262 00:15:49,520 --> 00:15:52,680 Speaker 1: I was a little girl. Her family were all firefighters. 263 00:15:52,720 --> 00:15:55,080 Speaker 1: She wanted to pursue that line of work. Also, yeah, 264 00:15:55,120 --> 00:15:58,240 Speaker 1: because it was interesting hearing her motivation for wanting to 265 00:15:58,280 --> 00:16:01,600 Speaker 1: fight fires, because it wasn't so much about breaking any 266 00:16:01,680 --> 00:16:04,600 Speaker 1: kind of glass ceiling, although clearly you know that was 267 00:16:04,680 --> 00:16:07,880 Speaker 1: that was part of the motivation for bringing that lawsuit. 268 00:16:08,000 --> 00:16:11,360 Speaker 1: But for her personally, she thought that it was the 269 00:16:11,400 --> 00:16:14,920 Speaker 1: best way to help people in the community, because when 270 00:16:14,920 --> 00:16:18,040 Speaker 1: you have a problem at home, what do you do? 271 00:16:18,120 --> 00:16:20,320 Speaker 1: You end up calling the fire department. A lot of 272 00:16:20,360 --> 00:16:22,280 Speaker 1: times those are the people who are going to respond 273 00:16:22,360 --> 00:16:27,600 Speaker 1: to your distress calls. So then in two Judge Charles 274 00:16:27,600 --> 00:16:31,880 Speaker 1: Proctor swift In rules in favor of those women, but 275 00:16:32,000 --> 00:16:36,200 Speaker 1: not after the massive press controversy and demonstrations people continue 276 00:16:36,200 --> 00:16:39,560 Speaker 1: to demonstrate outside of his court. He received death threats 277 00:16:39,640 --> 00:16:43,320 Speaker 1: and horrible hateful letters. I mean, the heat was on 278 00:16:43,440 --> 00:16:47,520 Speaker 1: him as well for making this decision. And later that year, 279 00:16:47,520 --> 00:16:52,040 Speaker 1: in November of nineteen eleven, women including Berkman, graduated from 280 00:16:52,040 --> 00:16:54,680 Speaker 1: the firefighting Academy, and Berkman went on to serve twenty 281 00:16:54,760 --> 00:16:58,000 Speaker 1: six years and achieved the rank of captain after enduring 282 00:16:58,000 --> 00:17:00,240 Speaker 1: a ton of harassment, And she talks about how after 283 00:17:00,240 --> 00:17:02,920 Speaker 1: she was promoted to lieutenant, she was like, you know, 284 00:17:02,960 --> 00:17:05,399 Speaker 1: a lot of guys think it's hard to suddenly go 285 00:17:05,480 --> 00:17:08,520 Speaker 1: from being a buddy and being in that like fraternity 286 00:17:09,119 --> 00:17:11,280 Speaker 1: to suddenly being the boss and having to tell people 287 00:17:11,280 --> 00:17:12,639 Speaker 1: what to do and to cut it out and all 288 00:17:12,680 --> 00:17:14,480 Speaker 1: that stuff. And she's like, but you know, that really 289 00:17:14,520 --> 00:17:16,640 Speaker 1: wasn't a problem for me because they had never accepted 290 00:17:16,680 --> 00:17:18,879 Speaker 1: me into their group anyway. Yeah, what were some of 291 00:17:18,880 --> 00:17:22,560 Speaker 1: the things that she mentioned as examples of the harassment 292 00:17:22,560 --> 00:17:25,480 Speaker 1: she had to endure. I remember one thing she said 293 00:17:25,560 --> 00:17:29,480 Speaker 1: was going in and having seeing a massive bra stretched 294 00:17:29,560 --> 00:17:32,600 Speaker 1: over her locker. But I mean, all the things she listed, 295 00:17:32,640 --> 00:17:35,199 Speaker 1: they ranged from like stupid stuff like having a bra 296 00:17:35,400 --> 00:17:38,320 Speaker 1: with her name on it, to the guys would empty 297 00:17:38,320 --> 00:17:40,680 Speaker 1: the oxygen out of her oxygen tanks, they wouldn't mess 298 00:17:40,680 --> 00:17:43,879 Speaker 1: with her equipment, They pete in her boots, they turned 299 00:17:43,880 --> 00:17:47,240 Speaker 1: her locker upside down, she wasn't allowed to eat with them. 300 00:17:47,280 --> 00:17:49,560 Speaker 1: I mean, it's like the worst kind of in your 301 00:17:49,560 --> 00:17:53,240 Speaker 1: face discrimination I've ever heard, which only goes to show 302 00:17:53,920 --> 00:17:58,880 Speaker 1: the determination of hers and these other groundbreaking women. There's 303 00:17:58,920 --> 00:18:02,520 Speaker 1: eleven other women who has the test to actually go 304 00:18:02,640 --> 00:18:06,920 Speaker 1: out and fight fires. And I think she was one 305 00:18:07,119 --> 00:18:13,400 Speaker 1: of the first responders to during nine eleven as well. Um. 306 00:18:13,440 --> 00:18:18,400 Speaker 1: But the thing is, the situation in the late seventies 307 00:18:18,400 --> 00:18:21,399 Speaker 1: and early eighties in the New York Fire Department is 308 00:18:21,440 --> 00:18:25,159 Speaker 1: not isolated at all. I mean, even today, if we 309 00:18:25,280 --> 00:18:29,720 Speaker 1: look at the national numbers, the firefighting gender gap is 310 00:18:29,760 --> 00:18:34,479 Speaker 1: still massive, in large part because of those issues of 311 00:18:35,080 --> 00:18:40,200 Speaker 1: gender harassment, sexual harassment, and discrimination that are still going on. Um. 312 00:18:40,240 --> 00:18:42,200 Speaker 1: As we mentioned at the top of the podcast. For instance, 313 00:18:42,200 --> 00:18:45,560 Speaker 1: according to the Bureau of Labor Statistics, women comprise only 314 00:18:45,680 --> 00:18:49,719 Speaker 1: three point four percent of all firefighters in the US, 315 00:18:49,760 --> 00:18:52,680 Speaker 1: and out of that just point five percent of first 316 00:18:52,680 --> 00:18:57,920 Speaker 1: line supervisors of firefighting and prevention workers. Yeah. And if 317 00:18:57,960 --> 00:18:59,960 Speaker 1: you want to look on the broad scale across the 318 00:19:00,040 --> 00:19:04,640 Speaker 1: country of paid fire departments have never hired a female 319 00:19:04,760 --> 00:19:11,199 Speaker 1: firefighter ever. Wow wow wow, that's a majority as a majority. 320 00:19:11,240 --> 00:19:14,720 Speaker 1: So people are still wondering today why are those numbers 321 00:19:14,760 --> 00:19:18,560 Speaker 1: so persistently low. I mean, first of all, it's not 322 00:19:18,560 --> 00:19:21,920 Speaker 1: supposed to be easy to become a firefighter. It's incredibly 323 00:19:22,400 --> 00:19:25,400 Speaker 1: demanding because you have to do things like pull heavy 324 00:19:25,480 --> 00:19:28,840 Speaker 1: lengths of hose, you have to climb stairs while wielding 325 00:19:28,920 --> 00:19:31,720 Speaker 1: huge power tools like chainsaws. You have to be able 326 00:19:31,760 --> 00:19:35,119 Speaker 1: to lift a ton of weight such as an hundred 327 00:19:35,200 --> 00:19:38,840 Speaker 1: eighty pound thirty five ft wooden ladder. Personally, Caroline, I 328 00:19:38,880 --> 00:19:42,159 Speaker 1: have zero upper body stream. I wouldn't cut it. I 329 00:19:42,160 --> 00:19:44,320 Speaker 1: would not be able to pass the physical exam. It's 330 00:19:44,359 --> 00:19:49,560 Speaker 1: not supposed to be easy, but it's also not supposed 331 00:19:49,600 --> 00:19:55,080 Speaker 1: to be discriminatory either, right, And when you look at 332 00:19:55,240 --> 00:19:58,080 Speaker 1: the Los Angeles Fire Department, for instance, they have come 333 00:19:58,200 --> 00:20:01,360 Speaker 1: under a lot of heat no pun intended for their 334 00:20:01,440 --> 00:20:04,359 Speaker 1: hiring practices, and they have barely been able to pass 335 00:20:04,760 --> 00:20:08,640 Speaker 1: any women, with a lot of those women alleging discrimination. Yeah, 336 00:20:08,680 --> 00:20:11,520 Speaker 1: there was a huge article about this in the l 337 00:20:11,560 --> 00:20:16,400 Speaker 1: A Times, kind of charting this whole hot mess essentially 338 00:20:16,480 --> 00:20:20,159 Speaker 1: of their municipal fire department. And in one comprehensive article 339 00:20:20,600 --> 00:20:25,400 Speaker 1: from the l A Times, the journalist details how there 340 00:20:25,400 --> 00:20:30,280 Speaker 1: are less than three percent of firefighters, fire paramedics, fire administrators, 341 00:20:30,320 --> 00:20:35,080 Speaker 1: and fire investigators that are women, But according to an 342 00:20:35,080 --> 00:20:38,119 Speaker 1: audit by the city's personnel department in two thousand six, 343 00:20:38,560 --> 00:20:43,399 Speaker 1: that tiny group accounted for fifties six percent of the 344 00:20:43,520 --> 00:20:48,200 Speaker 1: lawsuits against the Los Angeles Fire Department between and two 345 00:20:48,240 --> 00:20:51,240 Speaker 1: thousand five, right, and these women are claiming that there's 346 00:20:51,240 --> 00:20:53,439 Speaker 1: an unequal playing field, you know. They say they just 347 00:20:53,480 --> 00:20:56,919 Speaker 1: want to be accepted as firefighters. They don't want to 348 00:20:56,920 --> 00:20:59,520 Speaker 1: be treated differently, and they don't want to be considered 349 00:20:59,560 --> 00:21:02,960 Speaker 1: crybabs either. But a lot of people are pointing out, like, hey, 350 00:21:03,080 --> 00:21:07,760 Speaker 1: you're hiring practices are putting a dent in the taxpayers wallet. Yeah, 351 00:21:07,760 --> 00:21:10,440 Speaker 1: because the taxpayers are ultimately the ones who are paying 352 00:21:10,960 --> 00:21:14,120 Speaker 1: for all of these costly sexual discrimination suits that are 353 00:21:14,119 --> 00:21:17,000 Speaker 1: being brought because a lot of times it's the plaintiffs 354 00:21:17,000 --> 00:21:19,400 Speaker 1: who are winning, and so the fire department is having 355 00:21:19,440 --> 00:21:22,560 Speaker 1: to settle with them. But ultimately they're not the ones 356 00:21:22,600 --> 00:21:26,240 Speaker 1: who are paying for it. And when they the journalists 357 00:21:26,240 --> 00:21:30,280 Speaker 1: was interviewing people within the government and within the fire 358 00:21:30,280 --> 00:21:33,760 Speaker 1: departments trying to figure out whether or not the tests 359 00:21:34,040 --> 00:21:38,800 Speaker 1: had been devised to you know, allow women in there, 360 00:21:38,840 --> 00:21:42,480 Speaker 1: if they were even passable for women. The answers were 361 00:21:42,560 --> 00:21:45,320 Speaker 1: so ambiguous. Some would say, oh, well, yeah, I mean 362 00:21:45,320 --> 00:21:47,679 Speaker 1: we've actually had to let some women in who wouldn't 363 00:21:47,680 --> 00:21:52,040 Speaker 1: normally be allowed in just for numbers reasons. Other others 364 00:21:52,040 --> 00:21:56,920 Speaker 1: saying that no, actually it's devised so that women can't 365 00:21:56,960 --> 00:21:59,640 Speaker 1: get in. It was hard to get to figure out 366 00:21:59,640 --> 00:22:16,680 Speaker 1: what Actley was going on. Yeah, and you know, one 367 00:22:16,720 --> 00:22:19,720 Speaker 1: issue in particular when you're talking about, um, just gender 368 00:22:19,760 --> 00:22:23,440 Speaker 1: discrimination and not being probably equipped to handle women becoming 369 00:22:23,480 --> 00:22:26,840 Speaker 1: firefighters is the gear. You know, if you don't have 370 00:22:27,480 --> 00:22:30,200 Speaker 1: suits that fit right, masks that fit right, you can 371 00:22:30,240 --> 00:22:33,320 Speaker 1: really be injured. And so women firefighters in Orange County 372 00:22:33,400 --> 00:22:36,520 Speaker 1: out in California recently did win a lawsuit to provide 373 00:22:36,560 --> 00:22:39,040 Speaker 1: them with the basics, just the protective gear and the 374 00:22:39,200 --> 00:22:42,240 Speaker 1: uniforms that fit. Yeah. I mean in addition to things 375 00:22:42,280 --> 00:22:46,800 Speaker 1: like uniforms, even the facilities often aren't set up for 376 00:22:46,880 --> 00:22:50,679 Speaker 1: women to even work there. So you've also had lawsuits 377 00:22:50,680 --> 00:22:55,399 Speaker 1: that have been brought down simply to institute bathrooms for 378 00:22:55,440 --> 00:22:59,040 Speaker 1: women being built, because I mean, if you think about it, 379 00:22:59,280 --> 00:23:02,640 Speaker 1: if you're working full time with a fire department, there 380 00:23:02,680 --> 00:23:06,119 Speaker 1: are living quarters there, and there are bathrooms there, and 381 00:23:06,160 --> 00:23:08,240 Speaker 1: you are showering there, and if you are a woman, 382 00:23:08,280 --> 00:23:11,720 Speaker 1: you don't want to you know, it can't be co 383 00:23:12,080 --> 00:23:16,560 Speaker 1: ed and be copacetic all the time. Um. And there 384 00:23:16,680 --> 00:23:19,240 Speaker 1: was a recent blog post actually by a guy named 385 00:23:19,359 --> 00:23:21,960 Speaker 1: John k Murphy who was a retired fire chief, and 386 00:23:22,000 --> 00:23:25,439 Speaker 1: he was writing over at the fire engineering site, and 387 00:23:25,480 --> 00:23:28,720 Speaker 1: he essentially just gave a laundry list of all of 388 00:23:28,760 --> 00:23:32,280 Speaker 1: these discrimination suits that women had brought, alleging things like 389 00:23:32,359 --> 00:23:36,040 Speaker 1: sexual harassment, the test being set up against them, like 390 00:23:36,080 --> 00:23:41,359 Speaker 1: all of these barriers that women were facing once they 391 00:23:41,400 --> 00:23:44,000 Speaker 1: were inside of fire departments, and he was just saying 392 00:23:44,480 --> 00:23:46,560 Speaker 1: that it's time for it to stop. I mean, he 393 00:23:46,600 --> 00:23:49,520 Speaker 1: was horrified, as someone who was a fire chief who 394 00:23:49,520 --> 00:23:53,359 Speaker 1: had worked in this field for years and years, just saying, guys, listen, 395 00:23:53,400 --> 00:23:57,480 Speaker 1: what what is going on? Stop it? Right And people 396 00:23:57,560 --> 00:24:00,280 Speaker 1: from outside the industry are taking a look at this too. 397 00:24:00,320 --> 00:24:03,879 Speaker 1: There's been a lot of academic research into the issues 398 00:24:03,960 --> 00:24:07,560 Speaker 1: of of gender and race in uh in fire departments. 399 00:24:08,160 --> 00:24:11,960 Speaker 1: One study published in the International Journal and Diversity documented 400 00:24:12,560 --> 00:24:15,600 Speaker 1: the good and the bad that comes with firefighting. And 401 00:24:15,640 --> 00:24:17,840 Speaker 1: the good is that, you know, for a job that 402 00:24:17,880 --> 00:24:20,000 Speaker 1: does not require you to go to college or get 403 00:24:20,040 --> 00:24:23,240 Speaker 1: a master's degree or anything, the potential benefits are great 404 00:24:23,359 --> 00:24:25,920 Speaker 1: and the hourly wage of nineteen dollars and forty two 405 00:24:25,920 --> 00:24:31,360 Speaker 1: cents isn't too shabby. Unfortunately, as the study found, when 406 00:24:31,359 --> 00:24:35,159 Speaker 1: women are hired the majority of them say that they 407 00:24:35,160 --> 00:24:38,440 Speaker 1: were treated differently, eight percent that they were issued ill 408 00:24:38,480 --> 00:24:43,399 Speaker 1: fitting equipment, reported that their gender created barriers to career advancement. 409 00:24:43,840 --> 00:24:47,520 Speaker 1: Half felt shunned or socially isolated, and thirty seven percent 410 00:24:47,640 --> 00:24:51,399 Speaker 1: are verbally harassed. And just for comparison, and that same study, 411 00:24:51,840 --> 00:24:57,120 Speaker 1: they found that twelve percent of men reported experiencing discrimination. 412 00:24:57,960 --> 00:25:02,320 Speaker 1: So clearly there there's thing going on there. And one 413 00:25:02,359 --> 00:25:05,399 Speaker 1: other thing that these Cornell researchers did in that study 414 00:25:05,560 --> 00:25:10,600 Speaker 1: was compare the number of women in firefighting with other 415 00:25:10,800 --> 00:25:15,400 Speaker 1: high risks types of jobs like logging, being a bus mechanic, 416 00:25:15,440 --> 00:25:18,040 Speaker 1: being a roof for being a septic tank servicer. And 417 00:25:18,040 --> 00:25:22,000 Speaker 1: they found that women in those other similar sectors comprised 418 00:25:22,040 --> 00:25:27,760 Speaker 1: around seventeen percent of the employees and two and that's 419 00:25:27,760 --> 00:25:30,439 Speaker 1: in such stark contrast to the three point four percent 420 00:25:30,880 --> 00:25:35,200 Speaker 1: of female firefighters. Now there are a lot more volunteer firefighters. 421 00:25:35,200 --> 00:25:37,600 Speaker 1: It's it's estimated that they are between thirty five to 422 00:25:37,760 --> 00:25:40,920 Speaker 1: forty women in the volunteer fire service in the US. 423 00:25:41,119 --> 00:25:44,400 Speaker 1: But if you want this to be your career, even today, 424 00:25:44,880 --> 00:25:47,440 Speaker 1: it's quite a challenge. And it's even a challenge too 425 00:25:47,800 --> 00:25:50,160 Speaker 1: for women who are in there because I don't think 426 00:25:50,160 --> 00:25:55,280 Speaker 1: that a lot of women want it to be. I 427 00:25:55,280 --> 00:25:57,000 Speaker 1: don't think a lot of women want their gender to 428 00:25:57,040 --> 00:25:59,280 Speaker 1: be an even bigger issue than it already is by 429 00:25:59,359 --> 00:26:01,720 Speaker 1: virtue of them standing there and looking like a woman, 430 00:26:01,920 --> 00:26:04,520 Speaker 1: you know. And so there were some women in the 431 00:26:04,640 --> 00:26:08,399 Speaker 1: l A Fire department talking about how you know, they 432 00:26:08,440 --> 00:26:11,399 Speaker 1: don't they don't want to say anything because it's already 433 00:26:11,400 --> 00:26:13,480 Speaker 1: assumed that they're going to be a cry baby. But 434 00:26:13,520 --> 00:26:16,600 Speaker 1: this is what they really want, right Well, you know, 435 00:26:16,680 --> 00:26:19,760 Speaker 1: like Berkman said that, you know, she was like, Ei, 436 00:26:19,800 --> 00:26:21,840 Speaker 1: there were a million times I could have quit, you know, 437 00:26:22,000 --> 00:26:23,840 Speaker 1: the abuse got so bad, But she was like, I 438 00:26:23,920 --> 00:26:27,240 Speaker 1: knew that if they got rid of me, it would 439 00:26:27,240 --> 00:26:28,879 Speaker 1: be open season on the rest of the women in 440 00:26:28,920 --> 00:26:31,040 Speaker 1: the department. They would pick them off one by one 441 00:26:31,080 --> 00:26:34,640 Speaker 1: and have no mercy. Yeah, it's tough, I can I mean, 442 00:26:34,680 --> 00:26:39,240 Speaker 1: I can only imagine tough on top of what can't 443 00:26:39,240 --> 00:26:41,320 Speaker 1: be an easy job to begin with in the day 444 00:26:41,320 --> 00:26:43,280 Speaker 1: to day, right. And so all of this is in 445 00:26:43,320 --> 00:26:45,480 Speaker 1: line with a study that's that's slightly dated, but I 446 00:26:45,480 --> 00:26:47,960 Speaker 1: think it illustrates well what we're talking about. There was 447 00:26:48,880 --> 00:26:51,439 Speaker 1: sudy in Women's Health that found that male and female 448 00:26:51,480 --> 00:26:56,920 Speaker 1: fire fighters have similar jobs stressors, but female firefighters reported 449 00:26:56,960 --> 00:27:01,280 Speaker 1: significantly higher scores than men died on job skill concerns, 450 00:27:01,880 --> 00:27:05,720 Speaker 1: and job discrimination reported by female respondence was significantly higher 451 00:27:05,720 --> 00:27:07,880 Speaker 1: than for males, even though it was not ranked among 452 00:27:07,920 --> 00:27:10,879 Speaker 1: the five most stressful factors. And there were a number 453 00:27:10,880 --> 00:27:13,960 Speaker 1: of studies that we also found suggesting that women of 454 00:27:14,000 --> 00:27:18,120 Speaker 1: color are at even greater risk of gender harassment within 455 00:27:18,240 --> 00:27:22,120 Speaker 1: fire departments. So it only exacerbates these issues that are 456 00:27:22,119 --> 00:27:25,240 Speaker 1: already at work. It's not easy to be a woman 457 00:27:25,320 --> 00:27:28,199 Speaker 1: in a fire department. It's especially not easy to be 458 00:27:28,280 --> 00:27:31,600 Speaker 1: a black or Latino woman in a fire department because 459 00:27:32,440 --> 00:27:38,040 Speaker 1: they were almost targeted more for um hazing that would 460 00:27:38,080 --> 00:27:42,359 Speaker 1: go on, and just being isolated socially isolated. I mean, 461 00:27:42,359 --> 00:27:44,439 Speaker 1: I can't imagine like with like you mentioned with Berkman, 462 00:27:44,480 --> 00:27:47,359 Speaker 1: she wasn't allowed to eat with her coworkers. Now I 463 00:27:47,400 --> 00:27:49,359 Speaker 1: eat at my desk because I don't have time to 464 00:27:49,440 --> 00:27:51,760 Speaker 1: not eat at my desk every day at work. But 465 00:27:52,560 --> 00:27:56,119 Speaker 1: to to be so forcibly ostracized, it's got to be 466 00:27:56,200 --> 00:28:00,919 Speaker 1: really tough, right, So I mean props to any women 467 00:28:00,960 --> 00:28:03,040 Speaker 1: firefighters who are listening to this, and we we are 468 00:28:03,080 --> 00:28:07,600 Speaker 1: specifically talking about firefighters and not talking so much about 469 00:28:07,640 --> 00:28:11,959 Speaker 1: e M. S workers because the gender issues in this 470 00:28:12,000 --> 00:28:14,680 Speaker 1: are so stark. I was not expecting this at all. 471 00:28:15,080 --> 00:28:17,800 Speaker 1: I thought it would be, you know, kind of a 472 00:28:17,840 --> 00:28:22,479 Speaker 1: plucky tale of women putting out fires and aren't we strong? 473 00:28:22,560 --> 00:28:25,240 Speaker 1: And whoa, No, it's like it's horrific. Yeah, it's not 474 00:28:25,320 --> 00:28:28,679 Speaker 1: that at all. And so I mean, I'm glad, you know, 475 00:28:28,720 --> 00:28:30,720 Speaker 1: we we we like to try to end things on 476 00:28:30,760 --> 00:28:33,720 Speaker 1: a more hopeful note, and I don't know that we 477 00:28:33,840 --> 00:28:37,240 Speaker 1: can other than to say that it's good that we're 478 00:28:37,240 --> 00:28:40,160 Speaker 1: talking about it. And like Berkman said and her Maker's interview, 479 00:28:40,600 --> 00:28:45,880 Speaker 1: you know, you never see women in fire trucks, riding 480 00:28:45,920 --> 00:28:48,680 Speaker 1: along on the truck to the fire, to the emergency, 481 00:28:48,720 --> 00:28:51,600 Speaker 1: and how important that is as it is to see women, 482 00:28:52,160 --> 00:28:55,400 Speaker 1: you know in the computing fields and the science fields. 483 00:28:55,520 --> 00:28:57,640 Speaker 1: It's the same thing. You know, how important it is 484 00:28:57,680 --> 00:28:59,880 Speaker 1: to see a woman on a fire truck. So the 485 00:29:00,160 --> 00:29:04,240 Speaker 1: just a girl, you know, playing outside, will think maybe 486 00:29:04,280 --> 00:29:06,160 Speaker 1: I can do that when I'm a grown up. Yeah 487 00:29:06,200 --> 00:29:09,240 Speaker 1: I was. I was reading an interview actually with uh 488 00:29:09,520 --> 00:29:13,240 Speaker 1: female firefighter who was a nine eleven responder, and she 489 00:29:13,400 --> 00:29:17,680 Speaker 1: was saying that exact thing of how when she was 490 00:29:18,000 --> 00:29:20,959 Speaker 1: on the fire truck headed to the twin towers, she 491 00:29:21,000 --> 00:29:25,000 Speaker 1: remembers looking and seeing people with these astonished looks on 492 00:29:25,040 --> 00:29:28,400 Speaker 1: their faces, just at the sight of seeing a woman, 493 00:29:28,920 --> 00:29:32,600 Speaker 1: you know, responding to this fire. Because even she was 494 00:29:32,640 --> 00:29:37,200 Speaker 1: like it still happens after years of service, which is 495 00:29:37,280 --> 00:29:42,000 Speaker 1: kind of incredible. Um, but not even as incredible as 496 00:29:42,840 --> 00:29:45,400 Speaker 1: what these women are are doing all for the passion 497 00:29:45,520 --> 00:29:49,400 Speaker 1: of the specific line of work. I mean, clearly we 498 00:29:49,440 --> 00:29:53,880 Speaker 1: shouldn't take our female firefighters for granted, or our male firefighters. 499 00:29:53,880 --> 00:29:56,400 Speaker 1: This is an important job and one that I am 500 00:29:56,480 --> 00:29:59,600 Speaker 1: not physically strong enough to do now. Definitely can't pull 501 00:29:59,640 --> 00:30:03,480 Speaker 1: that home. No, no, uh So I hope that maybe 502 00:30:03,560 --> 00:30:06,920 Speaker 1: there are some firefighters listening, male, female, whoever. We want 503 00:30:06,920 --> 00:30:10,040 Speaker 1: to hear from you. Um, it was this as surprising 504 00:30:10,160 --> 00:30:14,120 Speaker 1: to you as it was for us. Let us know 505 00:30:14,720 --> 00:30:18,160 Speaker 1: all of your fiery thoughts, mom and stuff at Discovery 506 00:30:18,200 --> 00:30:20,320 Speaker 1: dot com is where you can send your letters, and 507 00:30:20,320 --> 00:30:21,960 Speaker 1: we have a couple of letters to share with you 508 00:30:22,000 --> 00:30:37,920 Speaker 1: when we get right back from a quick break. And 509 00:30:38,040 --> 00:30:42,640 Speaker 1: now back to our letters. So I've got a couple 510 00:30:42,640 --> 00:30:46,320 Speaker 1: of letters here about the holidays, the first one is 511 00:30:46,440 --> 00:30:49,960 Speaker 1: from a nuke. I hope I'm pronouncing that correctly. Um, 512 00:30:50,040 --> 00:30:54,040 Speaker 1: so she writes your podcast or Holidays Bad Relationships made 513 00:30:54,040 --> 00:30:57,000 Speaker 1: me think back to Christmas two thousand seven. I was 514 00:30:57,440 --> 00:30:59,840 Speaker 1: dating a German since the end of October of that year, 515 00:30:59,880 --> 00:31:01,800 Speaker 1: and I'm Dutch and lived in Amsterdam at the time, 516 00:31:01,840 --> 00:31:05,040 Speaker 1: so we only saw each other every other weekend. Around Christmas, 517 00:31:05,080 --> 00:31:06,719 Speaker 1: there were a few parties in this town that we 518 00:31:06,720 --> 00:31:09,120 Speaker 1: were both invited to, and he said I could stay 519 00:31:09,120 --> 00:31:11,480 Speaker 1: with him for the two weeks around Christmas and New Year's. 520 00:31:11,840 --> 00:31:13,920 Speaker 1: So the day finally arrived and he had an official 521 00:31:13,960 --> 00:31:15,960 Speaker 1: dinner from work and invited me to come along, and 522 00:31:16,000 --> 00:31:18,560 Speaker 1: I was also invited to his family for Christmas dinner. 523 00:31:19,320 --> 00:31:21,560 Speaker 1: To me, this meant that things were getting more serious, 524 00:31:21,640 --> 00:31:24,440 Speaker 1: and I was very flabbergasid when a friend made a 525 00:31:24,520 --> 00:31:28,080 Speaker 1: joke about relationships and my quote unquote boyfriend bluntly said, 526 00:31:28,400 --> 00:31:31,000 Speaker 1: we are not in a relationship. There were a lot 527 00:31:31,040 --> 00:31:33,800 Speaker 1: of people in the room that all seemed surprised. It 528 00:31:33,840 --> 00:31:35,680 Speaker 1: really hurt my feelings, and I told him that when 529 00:31:35,680 --> 00:31:37,920 Speaker 1: we were alone, he said that he had never said 530 00:31:37,920 --> 00:31:39,720 Speaker 1: we were in a relationship, and I made it clear 531 00:31:39,720 --> 00:31:41,400 Speaker 1: that I found it disrespectful and didn't want to be 532 00:31:41,480 --> 00:31:44,360 Speaker 1: treated that way. It took about five more months before 533 00:31:44,360 --> 00:31:47,240 Speaker 1: he wanted to make the relationship official. I saw something 534 00:31:47,280 --> 00:31:49,320 Speaker 1: special in him and thus gave it a chance while 535 00:31:49,320 --> 00:31:53,120 Speaker 1: pursuing my own dreams. Fortunately the story has a happy ending. 536 00:31:53,400 --> 00:31:55,360 Speaker 1: We moved in together in two thousand nine, bought a 537 00:31:55,360 --> 00:31:57,520 Speaker 1: house this year, and I are expecting our second child. 538 00:31:57,880 --> 00:32:00,440 Speaker 1: We were very happy together, but the beginning was facult 539 00:32:00,680 --> 00:32:02,720 Speaker 1: and it took me a long time to not feel 540 00:32:02,760 --> 00:32:05,800 Speaker 1: sad about that. Perhaps we hadn't had that holiday period 541 00:32:05,840 --> 00:32:10,160 Speaker 1: in the beginning, the relationship would have developed more naturally. Well, 542 00:32:10,200 --> 00:32:12,760 Speaker 1: I'm glad there was a happy ending, though. Okay. I 543 00:32:12,800 --> 00:32:15,720 Speaker 1: have a letter here from Laurie about dealing with family 544 00:32:15,880 --> 00:32:18,560 Speaker 1: stress during the holidays, and I all I can say 545 00:32:18,640 --> 00:32:24,280 Speaker 1: Laurie is oh girl, Aphelia uh. The letter states, since 546 00:32:24,320 --> 00:32:26,560 Speaker 1: I have a small family and we live in different states, 547 00:32:26,600 --> 00:32:28,920 Speaker 1: I have always done the holidays with my husband's family, 548 00:32:28,960 --> 00:32:31,800 Speaker 1: which is rather large. There are four siblings with their 549 00:32:31,880 --> 00:32:34,960 Speaker 1: husbands and wives and their children and grandchildren. When my 550 00:32:35,000 --> 00:32:36,800 Speaker 1: mother in law was no longer able to host the 551 00:32:36,800 --> 00:32:39,560 Speaker 1: holiday dinners, I took over a holiday meal at my 552 00:32:39,600 --> 00:32:42,560 Speaker 1: house would normally consist of twenty five to thirty five 553 00:32:42,640 --> 00:32:46,560 Speaker 1: people with numerous children. Two of the families consistently showed 554 00:32:46,600 --> 00:32:48,320 Speaker 1: up a half hour to an hour late and then 555 00:32:48,320 --> 00:32:50,760 Speaker 1: would complain if we started eating without them or if 556 00:32:50,760 --> 00:32:54,160 Speaker 1: the food was cold. Also, their children and grandchildren were 557 00:32:54,200 --> 00:32:57,000 Speaker 1: out of control. They would climb behind furniture, knock over lamps, 558 00:32:57,040 --> 00:32:59,000 Speaker 1: mark my walls, and if I said anything, I was 559 00:32:59,080 --> 00:33:02,000 Speaker 1: told that they were just kids. They also would leave 560 00:33:02,040 --> 00:33:03,880 Speaker 1: their plates on the table and just walk away and 561 00:33:03,880 --> 00:33:07,760 Speaker 1: would not think of helping to wash a dish. I 562 00:33:07,800 --> 00:33:11,360 Speaker 1: have to pause here and say, Lorie again, I feel you, 563 00:33:12,000 --> 00:33:14,560 Speaker 1: and some people don't understand that even though they are 564 00:33:14,600 --> 00:33:17,080 Speaker 1: just kids, they should be able to help out and 565 00:33:17,120 --> 00:33:21,920 Speaker 1: not be jerks and rant Okay. Continuing on, she says, 566 00:33:21,960 --> 00:33:24,160 Speaker 1: since it seemed to be only these two families that 567 00:33:24,200 --> 00:33:26,400 Speaker 1: caused all the commotion, I finally told my husband that 568 00:33:26,440 --> 00:33:28,600 Speaker 1: I refused to do the holiday meals any longer if 569 00:33:28,600 --> 00:33:31,080 Speaker 1: I had to deal with this. The following year, my 570 00:33:31,160 --> 00:33:33,600 Speaker 1: husband only invited his sister and her family, as well 571 00:33:33,640 --> 00:33:36,080 Speaker 1: as my mother in law. The holiday meals are much 572 00:33:36,080 --> 00:33:38,920 Speaker 1: calmer now. We also switched from eating on china to 573 00:33:38,960 --> 00:33:41,800 Speaker 1: eating on paper plates to save dishwashing and cleaning time. 574 00:33:42,200 --> 00:33:44,800 Speaker 1: Instead of just family for holiday meals, we now sometimes 575 00:33:44,800 --> 00:33:47,880 Speaker 1: have friends also join us. While my holidays are still busy, 576 00:33:48,080 --> 00:33:50,479 Speaker 1: I do enjoy them much more and with much less stress, 577 00:33:50,600 --> 00:33:55,520 Speaker 1: less mess and less broken items in my house. So, Lorie, 578 00:33:55,600 --> 00:33:58,000 Speaker 1: I'm glad that you are such a wonderful example of 579 00:33:58,040 --> 00:34:01,840 Speaker 1: communication flash telling your husband that you're just not dealing 580 00:34:01,840 --> 00:34:04,840 Speaker 1: with it anymore. Sometimes you gotta do it. Sometimes you 581 00:34:04,960 --> 00:34:08,279 Speaker 1: gotta draw a line in the sand. So good for you, Laurie, 582 00:34:08,600 --> 00:34:11,040 Speaker 1: and thanks to everybody who's written into his Mom's stuff 583 00:34:11,040 --> 00:34:13,240 Speaker 1: at Discovery dot com is where you can send your letters. 584 00:34:13,280 --> 00:34:15,120 Speaker 1: You can also get in touch with us on Twitter 585 00:34:15,160 --> 00:34:19,279 Speaker 1: at mom Stuff podcast or messages over on Facebook and 586 00:34:19,360 --> 00:34:22,759 Speaker 1: to find all things stuff Mom Never Told You are, blogs, 587 00:34:22,800 --> 00:34:27,000 Speaker 1: are videos, are podcasts, all of our social media links. 588 00:34:27,040 --> 00:34:29,400 Speaker 1: There are a ton of them. We're on pretty much everything. 589 00:34:29,800 --> 00:34:33,520 Speaker 1: There's one and only place to go now www dot 590 00:34:33,600 --> 00:34:39,880 Speaker 1: Stuff Mom Never Told You dot com for more on 591 00:34:39,920 --> 00:34:42,400 Speaker 1: this and thousands of other topics. 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