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Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff You Should Know, a production of iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 2: Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh, and there's Chuck,

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Speaker 2: and Jerry's here, too. And we're just a super cool

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Speaker 2: in-group looking down on your out-group here on Stuff You

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Speaker 2: Should Know.

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Speaker 3: That's right. Did you hear that thunder? Can you hear that?

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Speaker 2: No. It was a little too delicate, the sound was.

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Speaker 1: Okay.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it just started raining and it's thundering pretty good.

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Speaker 3: So maybe people can hear that. It might add a

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Speaker 3: little mood.

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Speaker 2: That's nice. Because, yeah, I think we could use a

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Speaker 2: little mood on this one. This is a very rigid

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Speaker 2: look at what I think is a very interesting social

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Speaker 2: psychology theory.

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Speaker 3: Oh, yeah?

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Do you not find it very interesting?

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Speaker 3: I didn't find this one super interesting. You know, like

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Speaker 3: a lot of social psychology, this one I filed under, like, yeah.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: I guess you're, you know, you're observing something that happens.

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Speaker 3: That's about where it ended for me.

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Speaker 2: I get it. I get it. To me. Yeah. I mean,

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Speaker 2: I sense what you're talking about. Like there's just something.

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Speaker 2: I feel like we're talking people out of listening to this.

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Speaker 3: Episode right now.

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Speaker 2: Okay. Well, we'll just clue everybody in and you can

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Speaker 2: make up your own mind how you feel about this, guys. Well,

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Speaker 2: what we're talking about is social identity theory, which you

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Speaker 2: probably gleaned from the title. And. In a nutshell, social

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Speaker 2: identity theory basically says that we get a sense of

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Speaker 2: self and belonging and, well, we help develop our identity

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Speaker 2: from the groups we belong to. And that is very

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Speaker 2: different from the idea that we just develop as individuals

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Speaker 2: through normal developmental psychology. In fact, the guys who came

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Speaker 2: up with social identity theory basically say it's the group

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Speaker 2: that's the thing, not the individual. Like, that's where we

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Speaker 2: really develop Most of our identity is from interacting with

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Speaker 2: other people. Yeah.

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Speaker 3: You know, I think I don't think anyone will be

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Speaker 3: talked in or out of liking or thinking this is

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Speaker 3: interesting because I think it'll be whether or not you're

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Speaker 3: into social psychology generally as a whole or not. I bet.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Because for a lot of social psychology for me, I'm

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Speaker 3: like sort of like I was saying, I was like,

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Speaker 3: a lot of this stuff to me is like, well, yeah, duh.

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Speaker 3: But like, what's the point? Sure. Sure.

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Speaker 2: Well, here's the point. This is the point as far

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Speaker 2: as I can tell. The part I just said is

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Speaker 2: definitely duh.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: But the reason they came up with social identity theory

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Speaker 2: is to explain stuff that heretofore, and still some people

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Speaker 2: are like, I don't know about social identity theory, although

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Speaker 2: it's the dominant framework for explaining this stuff. Yeah. Explaining

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Speaker 2: things that are tough to explain. Like, why do normal

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Speaker 2: people become fascists, get swept up in fascist movements? Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Why do sports fans get in fights with sports fans

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Speaker 2: from rival teams?

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Speaker 3: Alcohol.

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Speaker 2: Like, these things, sure. I mean, yeah, you can't really

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Speaker 2: deny that. Yeah. But they're, like, they don't quite make

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Speaker 2: sense when you step back and look at things. And

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Speaker 2: so social identity theory says, All of this can be

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Speaker 2: explained with this theory. And I think that's where it

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Speaker 2: gets interesting for me, especially the idea that this is

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Speaker 2: so ingrained in our evolutionary history that we basically can't

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Speaker 2: do anything about it. Like even being aware of this

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Speaker 2: can only help to such a degree. Like you're still

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Speaker 2: innately attracted to being a member of a group.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I think that's my deal. And I promise I'm

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Speaker 3: not going to say, duh, like a hundred times. Because

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Speaker 3: I do think some of the social psychology stuff is

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Speaker 3: fairly interesting. I'm just more of a person who's like,

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Speaker 3: sort of a what, like, where does that get us

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Speaker 3: in the end? You know what I mean?

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Speaker 2: Yes, I totally get that. We should also give our caveat,

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Speaker 2: because we make fun of social psychology and the studies

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Speaker 2: involved so frequently, it would be It would be pretty

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Speaker 2: rich to just be like, yeah, this is super cool

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Speaker 2: and proven. A lot of the studies, just like any

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Speaker 2: other social psychology field or sub-discipline, is there are like

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Speaker 2: 30 people who are grad students or undergrad students that

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Speaker 2: were getting extra credit. That's what the study found or

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Speaker 2: that's what the study used. And then whatever they found,

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Speaker 2: that's now just universally applied to everybody. Yeah. in a

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Speaker 2: lot of cases it's, that's just not correct, but this

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Speaker 2: one is so, like you said, duh, that it seems like, yes,

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Speaker 2: this is very true.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, for sure. Uh, and I guess we should start with, um, uh,

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Speaker 3: conflict intergroup conflict, uh, which is not intra group conflict.

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Speaker 3: So in this case, we're talking about conflict between, uh,

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Speaker 3: two different groups. Um, It's sort of like if you

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Speaker 3: just think of like us versus them for a lot

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Speaker 3: of this, you're along the right track. And in this case, it's,

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Speaker 3: you know, if you develop an intergroup conflict, it's developing

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Speaker 3: some sort of prejudice or bias maybe against another group. Like,

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Speaker 3: let's say you're the in-group. Everyone thinks you're the in-group,

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Speaker 3: but an in-group versus an out-group. And for a long

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Speaker 3: time before these two, Henri Tajfel and John Turner came

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Speaker 3: along in the 70s, There were people, other social psychologists

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Speaker 3: explaining it and in a different way and mainly in

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Speaker 3: a couple of different ways, starting with 1950 with Theodore

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Speaker 3: Adorno and his publishing, along with his colleagues of the

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Speaker 3: authoritarian personality and trying to trying to sort of describe like, hey,

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Speaker 3: what's the deal with Nazis and like the aftermath of

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Speaker 3: Nazis and like what kind of person is going to

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Speaker 3: get swept up in that kind of thing?

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Speaker 2: Right. So Adorno basically said that it's the people who

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Speaker 2: are getting swept up that are essentially causing the sweeping

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Speaker 2: in the first place. That if you put a bunch

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Speaker 2: of what he called authoritarian personalities who aren't, that doesn't

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Speaker 2: describe somebody who aspires to become an authoritarian leader. Those

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Speaker 2: are people who feel most secure when submitting to an

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Speaker 2: authoritarian leader. So you put a bunch of those people together,

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Speaker 2: say in a Nazi party, um, that fascism is just

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Speaker 2: going to take off, um, and attract more like-minded people.

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Speaker 2: It makes sense, but it's, I don't think anybody was like,

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Speaker 2: that's it. That explains fascism.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, for sure. Uh, and so the other one that

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Speaker 3: I mentioned, um, you know, before the other two guys

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Speaker 3: in the seventies that we're going to get to was, uh,

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Speaker 3: in the 1960s, there was a social psychologist named, uh,

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Speaker 3: Muzaffer Sharif, who, um, He again, these little like small experiments.

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Speaker 3: This is at a Boy Scout camp. He'd separated two

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Speaker 3: groups at Boy Scouts at camp. And he said, all right,

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Speaker 3: you know, you're just in two groups. Get to know

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Speaker 3: one another. Get to know each other. And everything was

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Speaker 3: going pretty good. And nothing was unusual until all of

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Speaker 3: a sudden he introduced the idea of competition for prizes. Yeah.

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Speaker 3: And that's when it became Lord of the Flies.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, for sure. He was like, one group gets blue ribbons,

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Speaker 2: the other gets participant ribbons. And it was on from

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Speaker 2: that point, you know? So he came up with something

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Speaker 2: called realistic group conflict theory, because once the prizes were introduced,

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Speaker 2: there was all sorts of conflict that came out of it, right? Now,

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Speaker 2: all of a sudden, group A was discriminating against group B,

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Speaker 2: and maybe they would get into like little fights or

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Speaker 2: something like that stuff that was completely outside of the competition.

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Speaker 2: And He basically said, OK, that stands in for resources.

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Speaker 2: Like if you switched out, you know, first prize with

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Speaker 2: access to dwindling water, now you have a true general

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Speaker 2: universal explanation for why groups get in conflict. It's over

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Speaker 2: material scarcity.

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Speaker 3: I'm not going to say duh. I promise.

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Speaker 2: But even that one, realistic group conflict theory, people are like, yeah,

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Speaker 2: that sounds kind of good, but. Still, it just doesn't

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Speaker 2: smack of like, it doesn't smack of duh, as Chuck

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Speaker 2: will eventually put it. And that's when Tajfell and Turner

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Speaker 2: came around.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, so Henri Tajfell, he was the first part of

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Speaker 3: this twosome. He was a social psychologist at the University

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Speaker 3: of Bristol. He was born to a Jewish family in

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Speaker 3: Poland and immigrated to France in the 1930s and lost

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Speaker 3: most of his family to the Holocaust and World War II.

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Speaker 3: And so he changed over from chemistry to, to social psychology,

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Speaker 3: I guess the inference there is in maybe some bid

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Speaker 3: to try and understand what the heck happened.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, which was, I mean, he wasn't the only one. Like,

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Speaker 2: that's where Adorno and Sharif were. Like, Nazi Germany just

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Speaker 2: came out of nowhere.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: And then, yeah, the idea that his family had perished

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Speaker 2: at the hands of the Nazis, I could see that's

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Speaker 2: what the reason was.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. So he hooked up with John Turner and, They

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Speaker 3: met at University of Bristol. He was a PhD student.

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Speaker 3: And as an undergrad, as far as his interest in

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Speaker 3: this kind of thing, he dropped out of college a

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Speaker 3: few times, ended up working just sort of, you know,

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Speaker 3: regular old blue collar jobs. And through those jobs, had

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Speaker 3: dealings with unions and things. And I guess just became

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Speaker 3: kind of fascinated about the social dynamic and group dynamics

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Speaker 3: within a union. So when he met Tajvel, I guess

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Speaker 3: love was in the air and they said, hey, let's

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Speaker 3: get together and work on this stuff together.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: And ended up writing sort of the watershed paper or

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Speaker 3: the initial one, at least on this from them. An

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Speaker 3: integrative theory of integration. conflict, which is like basically their

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Speaker 3: statement to the world of like, here's what we think

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Speaker 3: about all this.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. This is where social identity theory came from. This

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Speaker 2: is the paper it was proposed in. And Should we

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Speaker 2: take a break now or dive into the nuts and bolts?

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Speaker 3: No, no, no. I think it's a good break time.

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Speaker 2: Okay, everybody. You're going to have to wait for the

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Speaker 2: nuts and bolts after these messages.

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Speaker 3: Word up, Jerry. All right, Chuck.

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Speaker 1: So where we left off, we're about to dive into

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Speaker 1: this seminal paper from 1979 by Tosh, Fell, and Turner,

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Speaker 1: an integrative theory of intergroup conflict. And it sounds dry

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Speaker 1: and boring, but it basically changed.

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Speaker 2: How psychology, but also people outside of academia see the world,

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Speaker 2: you know? I wonder if one of the reasons why

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Speaker 2: it seems so duh is because this paper was persuasive

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Speaker 2: and became pervasive that now that we're living today in 2026,

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Speaker 2: it just seems of course to us, but at the

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Speaker 2: time it didn't necessarily. I wonder about that. You were

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Speaker 2: eight years old. Do you remember if people were walking

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Speaker 2: around already thinking this was duh?

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Speaker 3: I didn't know it ate. By the way, that's the

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Speaker 3: most Snoop Dogg way you've ever described something in your life.

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Speaker 2: What did I say?

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Speaker 3: Pervasive and persuasive.

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Speaker 2: Or shizzle.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I don't remember that, of course. But in that paper,

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Speaker 3: they proposed a few different basically processes that they think

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Speaker 3: explain how people form into groups and group behavior. And

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Speaker 3: then get into conflict with others and have prejudice against others.

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Speaker 3: And they started that with social categorization, which is basically

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Speaker 3: you have to form into a group to begin with

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Speaker 3: if you're going to have conflict with another group or

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Speaker 3: compare yourself to another group.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. And then so within categorization, so what Tashfel and

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Speaker 2: Turner seem to have done is they took some other

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Speaker 2: existing ideas in social psychology that hadn't necessarily been applied

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Speaker 2: to groups or whatever and put them together to kind

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Speaker 2: of form social identity theory and apply it to groups.

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Speaker 2: But categorization had already been around. There's something that had

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Speaker 2: been identified as the category accentuation effect. And it is

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Speaker 2: basically like once we start identifying ourselves as members of

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Speaker 2: groups and other people as members of other groups, in

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Speaker 2: groups and out groups, we get busy categorizing. And when

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Speaker 2: we get busy categorizing, what we're doing is using a

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Speaker 2: very ancient technique. process, which is heuristics, right? Like our

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Speaker 2: brain loves to take shortcuts. So it's, it does away

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Speaker 2: with all the nuance and details and just basically does

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Speaker 2: this big lumpy thing that's good enough. And when we

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Speaker 2: categorize people into groups, it goes through that process. So

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Speaker 2: we start seeing them differently.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, for sure. And the reason we've formed groups to

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Speaker 3: begin with is kind of twofold is one, they think

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Speaker 3: evolutionary is that We've always wanted to just sort of

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Speaker 3: classify the world around us by seeking patterns and things.

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Speaker 3: And then the sort of the obvious thing, which is

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Speaker 3: that it's a benefit, especially early on when people were evolving,

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Speaker 3: is to form a group for pulling resources and to

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Speaker 3: divide up the hunting and gathering and co-parenting and protecting

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Speaker 3: one another from either predators or other what would end

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Speaker 3: up being, you know, competitive groups outside your tribe or whatever.

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Speaker 3: And so for defense purposes, that kind of thing. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: And I mean, it's no fun to watch knots landing

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Speaker 2: by yourself. It's much better with a group.

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Speaker 3: That's a very good point.

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Speaker 2: So because of the heuristics that our brains just innately

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Speaker 2: use to kind of take these shortcuts and use less energy,

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Speaker 2: when we start categorizing people and ourselves, the variability within

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Speaker 2: our own group, the in-group, starts to go away. So

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Speaker 2: we start seeing other people say other Falcons fans, right?

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Speaker 2: It's similar to us, right? Like we're all Falcons fans

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Speaker 2: and everything else that makes us different just kind of

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Speaker 2: vanishes because we're Falcons fans. And that's what we identify as.

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Speaker 2: At the same time, it does the same thing in

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Speaker 2: the out group, but in a much less positive way.

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Speaker 2: Those are Steelers fans. They all suck. They're terrible people.

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Speaker 2: And then the differences between the in group and the

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Speaker 2: out group is are boosted as well. So all these

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Speaker 2: things just basically go through this very distorted lens when

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Speaker 2: we start categorizing people into groups. And that's where trouble

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Speaker 2: starts to come. And that's just one point of social

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Speaker 2: identity theory.

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Speaker 3: For sure. And by the way, we don't mean that

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Speaker 3: against Steelers fans, because I have a strong feeling that

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Speaker 3: Josh has no idea that the very first game of

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Speaker 3: the season is Falcons versus Steelers this year.

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Speaker 2: Of course I knew that. Who doesn't know that?

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Speaker 3: No, we don't. If you were, you certainly weren't trying

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Speaker 3: to say Steelers fans are bad people because you would

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Speaker 3: have said Eagles fans or Patriots fans probably.

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Speaker 2: I think all three. It applies to all three.

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Speaker 3: Oh, wow. Okay. Standing by it. I love it.

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Speaker 2: You always get so much guff for talking about any

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Speaker 2: Philadelphia fans.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I know.

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Speaker 2: It's funny because people get really mad at you.

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Speaker 3: I know. It's because they're bad people.

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Speaker 2: That always reminds me of that Onion teacher that said,

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Speaker 2: my local sports team is better than your local sports team.

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Speaker 3: Oh, that's funny. I love fans of all stripes, people

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Speaker 3: of Philly. No, I'm just kidding around. I love the

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Speaker 3: city of Philadelphia. I love to visit there. Don't have

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Speaker 3: the best time when our teams play each other. And

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Speaker 3: that's not my fault. I'll just leave it at that.

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Speaker 2: But look, you just did something that I think is

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Speaker 2: worth pointing out. You went from being a Falcons fan,

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Speaker 2: which you remained. which is your in-group and then Phillies

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Speaker 2: or Eagles fans are an out-group to you. But then

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Speaker 2: you kind of rose up, your altitude increased and you

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Speaker 2: went to like the 10,000 foot level and you included

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Speaker 2: Eagles fans in the in-group with yourself as just fans

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Speaker 2: in general.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, because if it was up to me, all rivalry

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Speaker 3: like that would be just very good-natured and fun and like, hey,

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Speaker 3: let's just go have a good time at the game

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Speaker 3: and maybe rib each other. So, It's it's when like

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Speaker 3: people take it seriously and curse in front of children

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Speaker 3: and throw beers. And that's that's when it gets to

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Speaker 3: the point where I'm like, well, that's no fun.

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Speaker 2: Well, that brings up the the next point or the

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Speaker 2: next nut or bolt, I guess, depending on your view

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Speaker 2: of social identity theory, which is social identification. I think

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Speaker 2: that kind of explains what you just described.

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Speaker 3: I think you're right. That's when you start to identify

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Speaker 3: with with my group, let's say Falcons fans. Uh, and

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Speaker 3: then that becomes part of my sense of self, but

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Speaker 3: you know, we're influenced by the values and, you know,

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Speaker 3: when it comes to sports, maybe it's values and stuff

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Speaker 3: don't come as into play, but, but the opinions and

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Speaker 3: values and maybe behaviors of the larger group behavior for sure.

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Speaker 2: For sure.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: And I mean, everybody I'm sure has met somebody who's like, wow,

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Speaker 2: your whole identity is tied up in being a Falcons fan.

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Speaker 2: Like this is your life, right?

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Speaker 3: Well, not me, but yeah.

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Speaker 2: No, not you. But there are people out there. I'm

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Speaker 2: sure you've met them just from being a Falcons fan.

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Speaker 2: You can't help but rub elbows with people who you're like, wow,

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Speaker 2: this is really important to you. Like you can tell

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Speaker 2: that this person identifies throughout life as a Falcons fan,

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Speaker 2: I think.

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Speaker 3: That's true. But, you know, the problem with Falcons fans

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Speaker 3: is that we're not as like that as much as

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Speaker 3: a lot of cities.

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Speaker 2: Well, that's Atlanta for you. Exactly. No support for anybody.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, for sure.

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Speaker 2: I do feel like we should at least acknowledge and

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Speaker 2: give a hat tip. to Anna, who helped us with this.

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Speaker 2: Every single example she used was the Mets. She's very

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Speaker 2: clearly a Mets fan. She tried very hard to get

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Speaker 2: the Mets in there. So go Mets.

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Speaker 3: That's pretty funny. And then the final of the third

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Speaker 3: would be social comparison. And that's when, and we've kind

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Speaker 3: of been doing this a little bit with our joking

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Speaker 3: around about sports, is comparing our group or whatever, what

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Speaker 3: we think is our in-group to the out-groups and other

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Speaker 3: groups And, you know, it can be a lot of

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Speaker 3: different things because we've just been doing just that. Like

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Speaker 3: you said, sometimes it's a favorable opinion. Sometimes it's unfavorable.

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Speaker 3: Sometimes it's neutral. But like we're incentivized in a way

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Speaker 3: to make obviously favorable comparisons between our in group and

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Speaker 3: the out group, because that helps your own self-esteem and

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Speaker 3: the self-esteem of a group overall and what they called

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Speaker 3: positive distinctiveness.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, like we're different from the out group in the

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Speaker 2: best possible way. And, you know, best possible way can

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Speaker 2: mean all sorts of things depending on the context of

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Speaker 2: the group.

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Speaker 3: Which is what I was just doing. Like we don't

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Speaker 3: curse out in front of kids and throw beers and stuff.

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Speaker 2: Exactly. Falcons fans don't do that. That seems to have

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Speaker 2: kind of adopted a pre-existing theory called social comparison theory

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Speaker 2: from 1954 by psychologist Leon Fetzinger. Yeah. And Fetzinger was

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Speaker 2: applied this to individuals basically saying that our self-worth is

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Speaker 2: very commonly determined by or Generated by comparison to others

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Speaker 2: it can be you know Comparing ourselves to somebody we

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Speaker 2: think is above us and then maybe that motivates us

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Speaker 2: to do better more often than not we compare ourselves

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Speaker 2: to people who who are, say, below us. I made

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Speaker 2: scare quotes just now. And that that generates attitudes of, like, superiority, prejudice, bias,

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Speaker 2: all that stuff. So what Tosh, Phil, and Turner did

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Speaker 2: was they seemed to have taken social comparison theory and

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Speaker 2: made it a component of social identity theory and applied

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Speaker 2: it to groups rather than just individuals.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and, you know, comparison, that can be tricky because

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Speaker 3: when you're talking about comparing sports fans, it's not that

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Speaker 3: big of a deal, but... if you're talking about comparing

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Speaker 3: like a, you know, an ethnic group that you're in

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Speaker 3: or a social socioeconomic group that you're in.

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Speaker 2: Right.

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Speaker 3: That's when it gets really kind of sticky and gross.

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Speaker 3: And that's when or why you hear, I think, famous

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Speaker 3: sayings like comparison is the thief of joy from Roosevelt

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Speaker 3: or Twain's comparison is the death of joy, because that's when,

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Speaker 3: you know, if you're really sitting around comparing yourself to

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Speaker 3: people of a of like a higher financial class or

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Speaker 3: something like that, that is truly the death of joy. Um,

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Speaker 3: because it can consume you, I would imagine. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: I mean, that's what makes Instagram in particular. So toxic,

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Speaker 2: but pretty much all social media is it, it engenders comparison.

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Speaker 2: Like that's the, that you can't help, but do that.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: You know? So yeah, it's a, it is the death

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Speaker 2: of joy.

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Speaker 3: Uh, here's the thing about a Taj fell and Turner though, is, um, it,

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Speaker 3: and this is kind of an important point. Like they

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Speaker 3: don't think that, um, like in the case I was

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Speaker 3: just talking about with what, like your socioeconomic status, that's

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Speaker 3: obviously something that has a, like a material basis at

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Speaker 3: its root, but it doesn't have to have that. And

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Speaker 3: that's what they posit. And I agree that conflict doesn't

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Speaker 3: need a material basis. Um, it can be, you know,

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Speaker 3: there can be a situation like back in the days

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Speaker 3: of Tuk Tuk where they're very, very limited resources and, um,

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Speaker 3: incompatible group goals, maybe within a group. And, It doesn't

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Speaker 3: necessarily have to do with the material thing.

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Speaker 2: So I disagree with that. I think that if you

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Speaker 2: look deep enough or if you expand your definition of

402
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Speaker 2: resources widely enough, there always is one. So dominance is

403
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Speaker 2: probably a pretty common one. One group wants to dominate

404
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Speaker 2: the rest and have say over where the society that

405
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Speaker 2: all the groups form goes. That's a big one.

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Speaker 3: Good point.

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Speaker 2: You could say winning is a resource. Like there's really

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Speaker 2: only one group that can win unless you're playing soccer

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Speaker 2: and then everybody wins. So, yeah, if you start to

410
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Speaker 2: get more, you know, less tangible and more esoteric or ethereal,

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Speaker 2: one of those ethereal, I think, then then to me,

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Speaker 2: there's always some sort of resource at stake.

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Speaker 3: OK, so you disagree because there are ideas that prejudice

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Speaker 3: doesn't require material inequality and you feel like it does.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, depending on your definition of material, I think.

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Speaker 3: All right. Well, that makes sense. So Taj, Feld, and

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Speaker 3: Turner were on to something, they felt. And so they

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Speaker 3: were like, all right, what if we dig down a

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Speaker 3: little bit deeper? And we started kind of poking, or

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Speaker 3: not poking holes, but asking questions about groups and a

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Speaker 3: person's place within a group. And one question they came

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Speaker 3: up with is like, what if you don't feel good

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Speaker 3: about the group that you're in?

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Speaker 2: Right.

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Speaker 3: And that could be a group that you're born into.

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Speaker 3: It could be an ethnic group that you're born into

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Speaker 3: or a financial group. strata that you're born into and

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Speaker 3: they said all right there's a few different strategies that

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Speaker 3: you can employ if you aren't so happy and the

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Speaker 3: first one was individual mobility which is this idea of

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Speaker 3: like let's say it's a high school click and you're

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Speaker 3: in the dungeons and dragons club yeah and you're starting

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Speaker 3: to not feel so great about that so what you

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Speaker 3: think the move to do is is to um To,

435
00:24:00,070 --> 00:24:01,840
Speaker 3: you know, to climb to what you perceive as a

436
00:24:01,859 --> 00:24:04,760
Speaker 3: higher social status and and become friends with like the

437
00:24:04,820 --> 00:24:07,159
Speaker 3: popular kids or the jocks or whatever. And this is

438
00:24:07,320 --> 00:24:10,359
Speaker 3: only the key here is this is only a thing

439
00:24:10,580 --> 00:24:14,179
Speaker 3: if if that's something that's possible to do. Like you

440
00:24:14,220 --> 00:24:16,960
Speaker 3: can't change your race, in other words, but you may

441
00:24:17,000 --> 00:24:18,980
Speaker 3: be able to elevate from the D & D group

442
00:24:19,020 --> 00:24:21,580
Speaker 3: to the whatever perceived more popular crowd is.

443
00:24:22,000 --> 00:24:24,700
Speaker 2: It depends if that if that high school hierarchy is

444
00:24:24,770 --> 00:24:27,790
Speaker 2: so rigid that the jocks are like nerds need not apply,

445
00:24:27,930 --> 00:24:31,920
Speaker 2: even former nerds. Then maybe, you know, you're now you're

446
00:24:31,940 --> 00:24:34,060
Speaker 2: an outcast from both groups. You're just in the middle

447
00:24:34,140 --> 00:24:37,060
Speaker 2: and you're you're up the creek. They make teen movies

448
00:24:37,119 --> 00:24:38,220
Speaker 2: about this very thing.

449
00:24:38,240 --> 00:24:41,159
Speaker 3: Oh, I mean, yeah. Every John Hughes movie almost is

450
00:24:41,380 --> 00:24:43,200
Speaker 3: sort of has this as a basis.

451
00:24:43,580 --> 00:24:46,660
Speaker 2: Right. And then the lesson that's learned is that that

452
00:24:46,830 --> 00:24:49,670
Speaker 2: group that you originally felt superior to or thought were

453
00:24:49,730 --> 00:24:52,310
Speaker 2: losers or whatever, that they are the ones that truly

454
00:24:52,350 --> 00:24:54,290
Speaker 2: care about you. The jocks don't care about you guys.

455
00:24:54,330 --> 00:24:56,530
Speaker 2: Let's let's just face it. Yeah.

456
00:24:56,710 --> 00:24:59,090
Speaker 3: And in the movies, though, it's almost always possible to

457
00:24:59,150 --> 00:25:01,360
Speaker 3: make that leap. Or if you don't make that leap

458
00:25:02,119 --> 00:25:04,800
Speaker 3: to for someone from that upper group to peel away

459
00:25:04,840 --> 00:25:08,179
Speaker 3: from them to recognize you anyway. Yes. You know what

460
00:25:08,200 --> 00:25:08,399
Speaker 3: I'm saying?

461
00:25:08,760 --> 00:25:08,920
Speaker 1: Yeah.

462
00:25:09,300 --> 00:25:12,939
Speaker 2: What was the one with him? He was like the

463
00:25:12,980 --> 00:25:15,440
Speaker 2: hot guy on Grey's Anatomy at first.

464
00:25:16,250 --> 00:25:17,609
Speaker 3: McDreamy.

465
00:25:17,730 --> 00:25:18,690
Speaker 2: Yes.

466
00:25:18,810 --> 00:25:19,790
Speaker 3: Can't buy me love.

467
00:25:19,910 --> 00:25:22,949
Speaker 2: Yes. I don't think it's ever been done better than

468
00:25:22,970 --> 00:25:23,310
Speaker 2: that one.

469
00:25:23,800 --> 00:25:25,640
Speaker 3: I love that movie. And we're kind of that one's

470
00:25:25,680 --> 00:25:28,520
Speaker 3: a little too far along for Ruby. But we did

471
00:25:28,640 --> 00:25:31,220
Speaker 3: have recently watched some kind of wonderful and pretty and pink,

472
00:25:31,340 --> 00:25:35,780
Speaker 3: which also have sort of this nice idea. But but yeah,

473
00:25:35,800 --> 00:25:38,590
Speaker 3: Can't Buy Me Love really nails it. I love all

474
00:25:38,609 --> 00:25:39,270
Speaker 3: three of those movies.

475
00:25:39,930 --> 00:25:42,070
Speaker 2: I like I have forever like it's just in my

476
00:25:42,109 --> 00:25:45,389
Speaker 2: head that scene where he goes to the Italian pizza

477
00:25:45,410 --> 00:25:50,560
Speaker 2: guy who's like this kind of like Don Juan. And

478
00:25:50,600 --> 00:25:54,240
Speaker 2: he's like, what have you done before? Like if your

479
00:25:54,300 --> 00:25:57,460
Speaker 2: girlfriend's husband found out about you, he's like, I take

480
00:25:57,480 --> 00:25:59,540
Speaker 2: a knife and I stab him a bunch of times.

481
00:25:59,840 --> 00:26:01,080
Speaker 2: He don't bother me no more.

482
00:26:01,100 --> 00:26:05,659
Speaker 3: Oh, the 80s movies.

483
00:26:06,020 --> 00:26:08,110
Speaker 2: Yeah, they're great. All right.

484
00:26:08,119 --> 00:26:12,250
Speaker 3: So individual mobility is one. Social creativity is the next one.

485
00:26:12,810 --> 00:26:15,850
Speaker 3: If you don't feel great about how your group as

486
00:26:15,890 --> 00:26:19,480
Speaker 3: a whole is perceived, you can maybe just start sort

487
00:26:19,500 --> 00:26:22,050
Speaker 3: of changing the language about how you're comparing your group

488
00:26:22,090 --> 00:26:25,189
Speaker 3: to other people. So the first subgroup of that is

489
00:26:25,230 --> 00:26:28,770
Speaker 3: comparing your in-group to the out-group in a different way.

490
00:26:29,310 --> 00:26:32,230
Speaker 3: So like, you know, the D & D group, like

491
00:26:32,290 --> 00:26:34,290
Speaker 3: we may not be as cool of the jocks, but

492
00:26:34,330 --> 00:26:36,230
Speaker 3: like we're a lot smarter than them.

493
00:26:37,070 --> 00:26:39,400
Speaker 2: Precisely. That's an excellent example.

494
00:26:39,540 --> 00:26:39,740
Speaker 3: Yeah.

495
00:26:40,540 --> 00:26:45,179
Speaker 2: Another one is you can basically change what attributes are

496
00:26:45,260 --> 00:26:50,640
Speaker 2: focused on about your group. Right. So I guess going

497
00:26:50,680 --> 00:26:53,720
Speaker 2: to the D & D one, say, I don't know,

498
00:26:53,780 --> 00:26:55,379
Speaker 2: I can't figure out how to use that one. You

499
00:26:55,400 --> 00:26:56,120
Speaker 2: got something for that?

500
00:26:57,980 --> 00:27:01,379
Speaker 3: Well, it's sort of about changing how others perceive your group.

501
00:27:01,420 --> 00:27:03,899
Speaker 3: So maybe the D & D group may not be

502
00:27:03,920 --> 00:27:10,240
Speaker 3: looked at as cool, but we have the best homemade shirts.

503
00:27:12,000 --> 00:27:15,020
Speaker 2: I guess so. That seems similar to the first one.

504
00:27:15,040 --> 00:27:17,770
Speaker 3: It sort of does a little bit. but it's in,

505
00:27:17,910 --> 00:27:20,710
Speaker 3: it's in how, like, I think in the, in the

506
00:27:20,750 --> 00:27:23,510
Speaker 3: first one, it's like how they perceive themselves. Like we're,

507
00:27:23,530 --> 00:27:25,449
Speaker 3: we're smarter than they are and they'll just never know it.

508
00:27:25,850 --> 00:27:27,570
Speaker 3: And the other one is, is we've got like these

509
00:27:27,650 --> 00:27:30,840
Speaker 3: cool uniforms that we wear and everyone thinks they're awesome.

510
00:27:31,040 --> 00:27:34,460
Speaker 2: Gotcha. Great, great example. I'll bet D and D uniforms

511
00:27:34,520 --> 00:27:35,139
Speaker 2: are awesome.

512
00:27:35,760 --> 00:27:38,399
Speaker 3: Well, I was thinking of the, in stranger things, the

513
00:27:38,420 --> 00:27:40,140
Speaker 3: hellfire club and the cool t-shirts.

514
00:27:40,940 --> 00:27:43,520
Speaker 2: Oh, okay. I only saw the first season. Yeah.

515
00:27:43,720 --> 00:27:46,040
Speaker 3: You know, I liked it all, but it, it, it,

516
00:27:46,570 --> 00:27:47,270
Speaker 3: First season was great.

517
00:27:47,910 --> 00:27:50,390
Speaker 2: Have you seen The Devil in Silver? It's the third

518
00:27:50,970 --> 00:27:52,910
Speaker 2: installation of the Terror series.

519
00:27:52,930 --> 00:27:54,170
Speaker 3: I don't know about any of those things.

520
00:27:55,390 --> 00:27:57,570
Speaker 2: Oh, well, just start watching The Terror.

521
00:27:58,050 --> 00:27:59,890
Speaker 3: Well, yeah, you've told us about that. I remember that now.

522
00:28:00,510 --> 00:28:02,910
Speaker 2: Skip over season two and then just go to season three.

523
00:28:02,930 --> 00:28:03,450
Speaker 2: It was pretty good.

524
00:28:03,820 --> 00:28:08,120
Speaker 3: Okay. Wasn't season one like sailboats and frigates and stuff?

525
00:28:08,859 --> 00:28:09,199
Speaker 2: Yeah.

526
00:28:09,220 --> 00:28:10,080
Speaker 3: Pirates or something?

527
00:28:10,200 --> 00:28:12,719
Speaker 2: It was based on, I can't remember which expedition, but

528
00:28:12,740 --> 00:28:16,409
Speaker 2: a lost ship. British Navy expedition in the Arctic. And

529
00:28:17,230 --> 00:28:20,450
Speaker 2: it was like based on that, but also had like

530
00:28:20,490 --> 00:28:22,190
Speaker 2: all sorts of fiction. Okay.

531
00:28:22,230 --> 00:28:23,080
Speaker 3: So seasons one and three?

532
00:28:23,670 --> 00:28:27,340
Speaker 2: Yes. Just do not watch season two. All right.

533
00:28:27,359 --> 00:28:29,380
Speaker 3: So the third way you can do that is change

534
00:28:30,220 --> 00:28:34,220
Speaker 3: what out group you're comparing yourself with. So the D &

535
00:28:33,760 --> 00:28:36,870
Speaker 3: D group would say like, well, we may be D &

536
00:28:36,510 --> 00:28:38,330
Speaker 3: D nerds, but have you seen the chess club?

537
00:28:39,190 --> 00:28:42,890
Speaker 2: Right. Wow. You're just on fire today, man.

538
00:28:43,400 --> 00:28:45,960
Speaker 3: And I love chess club. I love chess. I love

539
00:28:45,980 --> 00:28:48,520
Speaker 3: D & D. I'm not slagging any of these. If anything,

540
00:28:48,580 --> 00:28:49,860
Speaker 3: I'm anti-jock.

541
00:28:50,780 --> 00:28:53,570
Speaker 2: There you go. Got to be anti-somebody, right? That's the

542
00:28:53,610 --> 00:28:55,410
Speaker 2: whole in-group, out-group basis.

543
00:28:55,830 --> 00:28:57,450
Speaker 3: Oh, man. I'm just getting myself in trouble with all

544
00:28:57,510 --> 00:28:58,310
Speaker 3: our teen listeners.

545
00:28:59,610 --> 00:29:02,210
Speaker 2: One of the things about the social creativity, too, is

546
00:29:02,450 --> 00:29:06,560
Speaker 2: all three of those, they don't actually change anything in

547
00:29:06,580 --> 00:29:10,000
Speaker 2: the way of the hierarchy. The jocks are still at

548
00:29:10,040 --> 00:29:10,520
Speaker 2: the top.

549
00:29:10,860 --> 00:29:11,440
Speaker 3: They rule the school.

550
00:29:11,880 --> 00:29:16,400
Speaker 2: But things have changed. Something has changed, right? Social mobility

551
00:29:16,480 --> 00:29:21,280
Speaker 2: is like the group has changed because you've left and

552
00:29:21,320 --> 00:29:23,960
Speaker 2: maybe the hierarchy has changed because you joined this higher

553
00:29:24,030 --> 00:29:27,590
Speaker 2: group or whatever. But social creativity does not actually change

554
00:29:28,190 --> 00:29:31,130
Speaker 2: any part of the larger structure, say, of society.

555
00:29:31,590 --> 00:29:33,950
Speaker 3: Yeah, for sure. So those were the first two. The

556
00:29:33,990 --> 00:29:37,110
Speaker 3: last one is very easy. It's social competition. And that's

557
00:29:37,130 --> 00:29:39,270
Speaker 3: when you choose to take on the group that you

558
00:29:39,350 --> 00:29:42,150
Speaker 3: perceive ahead of you like head on. So that's Revenge

559
00:29:42,170 --> 00:29:42,620
Speaker 3: of the Nerds.

560
00:29:43,100 --> 00:29:48,960
Speaker 2: Yes, it is. That or any, like if there was

561
00:29:49,180 --> 00:29:53,100
Speaker 2: some greedy developer who's trying to shut something down, that's

562
00:29:53,180 --> 00:29:57,180
Speaker 2: the basis of it. Whether it's a ski resort or

563
00:29:57,240 --> 00:30:00,969
Speaker 2: a car wash or a hot dog stand. That's it

564
00:30:00,990 --> 00:30:02,209
Speaker 2: right there. Taking it on.

565
00:30:02,590 --> 00:30:05,310
Speaker 3: That's right. So one of the things these two guys,

566
00:30:05,350 --> 00:30:10,090
Speaker 3: Toshvel and Turner, Toshvel and Turner, wanted to point out

567
00:30:10,130 --> 00:30:17,230
Speaker 3: was that like resource or material inequality or scarcity, they

568
00:30:17,250 --> 00:30:21,450
Speaker 3: don't always have to lead to social conflict. So sometimes

569
00:30:21,530 --> 00:30:26,000
Speaker 3: if you're like a low status individual or something. You

570
00:30:26,040 --> 00:30:29,640
Speaker 3: might align with a new group identity or try and

571
00:30:29,660 --> 00:30:32,080
Speaker 3: redefine that group in a more positive light, like the

572
00:30:32,120 --> 00:30:34,400
Speaker 3: things kind of we were just talking about. Yeah. But

573
00:30:34,620 --> 00:30:39,070
Speaker 3: there's no difference in like your access to resources. Like

574
00:30:39,110 --> 00:30:41,770
Speaker 3: it might just happen within the group and how you're

575
00:30:41,990 --> 00:30:44,490
Speaker 3: perceiving yourself or having others perceive you. It's not like

576
00:30:45,090 --> 00:30:47,990
Speaker 3: you went out and got like cooler clothes for the

577
00:30:48,030 --> 00:30:48,970
Speaker 3: D & D group to wear.

578
00:30:49,670 --> 00:30:51,380
Speaker 2: Right. That's a much better way of what I was

579
00:30:51,420 --> 00:30:53,980
Speaker 2: trying to say. Okay. Chuck, I say we take our

580
00:30:54,040 --> 00:30:56,350
Speaker 2: second break now and then come back and talk more

581
00:30:56,400 --> 00:30:58,430
Speaker 2: about social identity theory.

582
00:30:59,270 --> 00:31:06,570
Speaker 3: Let's do it.

583
00:31:11,230 --> 00:31:13,410
Speaker 1: So I guess we should compare social identity theory with

584
00:31:13,450 --> 00:31:15,580
Speaker 1: the two big ones that we talked about before. Adornos

585
00:31:15,800 --> 00:31:17,340
Speaker 1: and what was the other guy? I can't remember.

586
00:31:17,360 --> 00:31:17,800
Speaker 3: That's right.

587
00:31:17,820 --> 00:31:18,840
Speaker 1: Sharif. Oh, you want me to do that?

588
00:31:42,140 --> 00:31:48,000
Speaker 2: Well, the big one between Adorno's authoritarian personality theory and

589
00:31:48,060 --> 00:31:51,230
Speaker 2: social identity theory is that Adorno is basically saying it's

590
00:31:51,250 --> 00:31:55,570
Speaker 2: a bunch of individuals, messed up issues coming together to

591
00:31:55,610 --> 00:32:01,989
Speaker 2: create fascism or to create combative in-group, out-group behavior. It's

592
00:32:02,610 --> 00:32:07,040
Speaker 2: these individuals who have problems. And that just is– it's

593
00:32:07,100 --> 00:32:10,170
Speaker 2: not the opposite, but it really does not– it's not

594
00:32:10,210 --> 00:32:13,920
Speaker 2: compatible with social identity theory because to social identity theory,

595
00:32:14,000 --> 00:32:17,260
Speaker 2: people coming together as a group, that group is what

596
00:32:17,340 --> 00:32:22,040
Speaker 2: generates just the fact that people are together generates those issues.

597
00:32:22,640 --> 00:32:25,720
Speaker 2: There are positives and negatives to the whole thing.

598
00:32:26,070 --> 00:32:26,270
Speaker 3: Yeah.

599
00:32:26,610 --> 00:32:28,730
Speaker 2: Like for example, some of the benefits, just a sense

600
00:32:28,750 --> 00:32:33,710
Speaker 2: of belonging, which people make a case of that. We

601
00:32:33,730 --> 00:32:37,300
Speaker 2: have developed that evolutionarily to keep us in groups and,

602
00:32:37,840 --> 00:32:40,540
Speaker 2: That deep sense of well-being that we get from feeling

603
00:32:40,580 --> 00:32:41,360
Speaker 2: like we belong.

604
00:32:41,760 --> 00:32:42,280
Speaker 3: Yeah, for sure.

605
00:32:42,300 --> 00:32:44,660
Speaker 2: That's a huge, huge benefit of being in a group.

606
00:32:45,560 --> 00:32:48,720
Speaker 2: A sense of purpose. You know, groups typically have missions.

607
00:32:48,780 --> 00:32:51,180
Speaker 2: I know that you Falcons fans like to go on

608
00:32:51,220 --> 00:32:55,500
Speaker 2: weekend retreats at camps very often in the off season

609
00:32:55,540 --> 00:32:57,900
Speaker 2: to talk about the Falcons and their prospects for the

610
00:32:57,940 --> 00:32:58,590
Speaker 2: next season.

611
00:32:58,810 --> 00:32:59,070
Speaker 3: Yeah.

612
00:32:59,310 --> 00:32:59,970
Speaker 2: That's a purpose.

613
00:33:00,670 --> 00:33:01,270
Speaker 3: Yeah, totally.

614
00:33:01,870 --> 00:33:05,330
Speaker 2: And then self-worth, just having a sense of self-esteem from

615
00:33:05,570 --> 00:33:11,190
Speaker 2: belonging to a group like the Falcons fans. Right. You

616
00:33:11,230 --> 00:33:15,300
Speaker 2: can't buy that kind of self-esteem that the Falcons give you.

617
00:33:16,190 --> 00:33:18,210
Speaker 3: Boy, it's so funny that we're using the Falcons because

618
00:33:18,410 --> 00:33:20,080
Speaker 3: I don't know if there's a collective group of humans

619
00:33:20,140 --> 00:33:26,640
Speaker 3: on planet Earth that feels worse about themselves. That's funny.

620
00:33:27,460 --> 00:33:30,340
Speaker 3: The other one was the realistic group conflict theory. So

621
00:33:31,020 --> 00:33:33,880
Speaker 3: social identity theory is probably a little closer to that

622
00:33:34,020 --> 00:33:41,430
Speaker 3: one than Adorno's authoritarian personality theory or trait theory, because

623
00:33:42,230 --> 00:33:47,670
Speaker 3: it frames prejudice as a byproduct of an intergroup conflict.

624
00:33:48,650 --> 00:33:53,250
Speaker 3: I think maybe one of the differences is that RCT,

625
00:33:53,310 --> 00:33:56,920
Speaker 3: realistic group conflict theory, sort of frames it as like

626
00:33:56,980 --> 00:34:00,400
Speaker 3: the resource scarcity that we're talking about. And Tajfell, again,

627
00:34:00,480 --> 00:34:03,970
Speaker 3: and Turner, they say that scarcity doesn't necessarily have to

628
00:34:04,090 --> 00:34:05,830
Speaker 3: be a part of that or a precursor, at least

629
00:34:05,850 --> 00:34:06,130
Speaker 3: to that.

630
00:34:06,570 --> 00:34:08,450
Speaker 2: Yeah. And like, there's a lot of different nuances that

631
00:34:08,489 --> 00:34:11,029
Speaker 2: are different between the two. I think social identity theory

632
00:34:11,070 --> 00:34:15,350
Speaker 2: like really spreads out much further. But that's the main

633
00:34:15,710 --> 00:34:16,730
Speaker 2: difference between them.

634
00:34:17,010 --> 00:34:17,589
Speaker 3: Yeah, agreed.

635
00:34:18,050 --> 00:34:20,430
Speaker 2: So there's a lot of people who are like, yeah, duh,

636
00:34:20,630 --> 00:34:23,549
Speaker 2: including you, Chuck. But there's also a lot of people

637
00:34:23,570 --> 00:34:25,370
Speaker 2: who are like, have you guys proven this? Like we're

638
00:34:25,390 --> 00:34:28,850
Speaker 2: talking social psychology here. Are we just, somebody did like

639
00:34:28,890 --> 00:34:31,910
Speaker 2: a study once and everybody says, well, now it's proven.

640
00:34:32,489 --> 00:34:38,069
Speaker 2: That's maybe. So there's this, this thing that they use

641
00:34:38,110 --> 00:34:41,950
Speaker 2: to test social identity theory called the minimal group paradigm.

642
00:34:42,550 --> 00:34:45,810
Speaker 2: And originally I thought minimal referred to like the fewest

643
00:34:45,890 --> 00:34:48,589
Speaker 2: number of people in a group, which made me think

644
00:34:48,610 --> 00:34:51,000
Speaker 2: of the special people club from welcome to the dollhouse.

645
00:34:52,030 --> 00:34:53,070
Speaker 3: Yeah.

646
00:34:53,090 --> 00:34:55,090
Speaker 2: With Don Wiener and the kid. Yeah.

647
00:34:55,270 --> 00:34:56,209
Speaker 3: Was it just like two people?

648
00:34:56,950 --> 00:34:57,189
Speaker 2: Yes.

649
00:34:57,610 --> 00:34:58,470
Speaker 3: Yeah.

650
00:34:58,670 --> 00:35:01,670
Speaker 2: But they mean minimal as far as like the minimum

651
00:35:02,450 --> 00:35:06,120
Speaker 2: circumstances that the people in the group have in common.

652
00:35:06,300 --> 00:35:09,040
Speaker 2: Like what is the least amount of stuff that those

653
00:35:09,080 --> 00:35:11,660
Speaker 2: people can have in common and still belong to a

654
00:35:11,760 --> 00:35:16,390
Speaker 2: group together that where this behavior will develop? And using

655
00:35:16,450 --> 00:35:20,030
Speaker 2: that as a test paradigm, I guess. That actually pans

656
00:35:20,110 --> 00:35:22,590
Speaker 2: social identity theory out basically every time.

657
00:35:23,030 --> 00:35:25,350
Speaker 3: Yeah, this is where I thought it got like a

658
00:35:25,390 --> 00:35:29,390
Speaker 3: little more interesting for me and that they in 1979,

659
00:35:29,370 --> 00:35:32,750
Speaker 3: they got together with another social psychologist named Rupert Brown

660
00:35:32,790 --> 00:35:35,819
Speaker 3: for a study called Social Comparison in Group Interest and

661
00:35:35,910 --> 00:35:38,680
Speaker 3: in Group Favoritism. Part of it would help is if

662
00:35:38,700 --> 00:35:43,439
Speaker 3: they just sexied up these titles for sure. But again,

663
00:35:43,500 --> 00:35:45,980
Speaker 3: they wanted to see like what what if we just

664
00:35:46,020 --> 00:35:50,540
Speaker 3: sort of arbitrarily grouped individuals together? And then task them

665
00:35:50,580 --> 00:35:53,819
Speaker 3: with some questions about something, which we'll see in a minute,

666
00:35:54,320 --> 00:35:56,000
Speaker 3: and see what happens. And so in this case, it

667
00:35:56,040 --> 00:36:02,360
Speaker 3: was 62 14- and 15-year-old students. And to group them arbitrarily,

668
00:36:02,410 --> 00:36:04,930
Speaker 3: they just gave them a series of abstract paintings and said,

669
00:36:04,969 --> 00:36:06,989
Speaker 3: pick out which one you like the best, and that'll

670
00:36:07,010 --> 00:36:09,450
Speaker 3: be your group or whatever. And they ended up in

671
00:36:09,510 --> 00:36:12,350
Speaker 3: four separate groups, the triangle group, the circle group, the

672
00:36:12,410 --> 00:36:16,230
Speaker 3: dichromatic group, and the polychromatic group.

673
00:36:16,550 --> 00:36:16,690
Speaker 1: Mm-hmm.

674
00:36:17,390 --> 00:36:20,870
Speaker 3: So here's what I don't understand is that she said, really,

675
00:36:20,890 --> 00:36:22,529
Speaker 3: they were just all put in the triangle group. What

676
00:36:22,550 --> 00:36:23,089
Speaker 3: does that mean?

677
00:36:23,700 --> 00:36:25,940
Speaker 2: I think that so I didn't get that either. I

678
00:36:26,280 --> 00:36:31,090
Speaker 2: went and looked. Essentially, they were arbitrarily put into two

679
00:36:31,140 --> 00:36:33,450
Speaker 2: groups that had nothing to do with what the kids

680
00:36:33,530 --> 00:36:35,770
Speaker 2: involved thought they were a group member of.

681
00:36:35,830 --> 00:36:35,930
Speaker 1: So.

682
00:36:36,310 --> 00:36:39,969
Speaker 2: That whole triangle, circle, dichromatic, polychromatic. It was just to

683
00:36:40,110 --> 00:36:42,600
Speaker 2: fool the kids into thinking they were a member of

684
00:36:42,660 --> 00:36:46,219
Speaker 2: a group when really they were just arbitrarily assigned to

685
00:36:46,380 --> 00:36:49,299
Speaker 2: one of two groups. One was the control group and

686
00:36:49,420 --> 00:36:52,520
Speaker 2: one was the experimental group, essentially. But those kids didn't

687
00:36:52,580 --> 00:36:55,200
Speaker 2: think in those terms. They thought, I'm team triangle or

688
00:36:55,239 --> 00:36:56,430
Speaker 2: I'm team dichromatic.

689
00:36:56,610 --> 00:36:57,730
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I got you.

690
00:36:57,770 --> 00:36:58,009
Speaker 2: All right.

691
00:36:58,030 --> 00:37:00,709
Speaker 3: So then they grouped them like this and then they said,

692
00:37:01,410 --> 00:37:03,790
Speaker 3: fill out these forms and we're going to determine how

693
00:37:03,830 --> 00:37:05,990
Speaker 3: much each group is going to get paid for the study.

694
00:37:06,989 --> 00:37:10,610
Speaker 3: And they had like the forms were side by side

695
00:37:10,670 --> 00:37:13,890
Speaker 3: with like a proposal for a dollar amount for each group.

696
00:37:14,890 --> 00:37:17,730
Speaker 3: Some of them are equal. Some are not equal. And

697
00:37:17,830 --> 00:37:21,480
Speaker 3: what they observed was, I think, fairly interesting is that

698
00:37:22,440 --> 00:37:25,080
Speaker 3: even when like like one of the things they observed

699
00:37:25,280 --> 00:37:28,780
Speaker 3: was that even when they had a chance for both

700
00:37:28,840 --> 00:37:32,239
Speaker 3: groups to make 11 bucks, they would choose to make

701
00:37:32,239 --> 00:37:37,270
Speaker 3: 10 dollars for themselves if the other group made five. So. Essentially,

702
00:37:37,750 --> 00:37:42,070
Speaker 3: they all chose to have a disparity between the groups.

703
00:37:42,090 --> 00:37:45,069
Speaker 3: So in other words, to make their group get more

704
00:37:45,110 --> 00:37:46,730
Speaker 3: money than the other one, even if there was an

705
00:37:46,810 --> 00:37:48,810
Speaker 3: option to get paid equally and it was more money.

706
00:37:49,210 --> 00:37:49,410
Speaker 1: Yeah.

707
00:37:50,110 --> 00:37:52,989
Speaker 2: So to their own detriment, they wanted to. But essentially,

708
00:37:53,410 --> 00:37:56,250
Speaker 2: the way that they explained it was that the people

709
00:37:56,310 --> 00:37:59,290
Speaker 2: choosing that were trying to enhance the status of their group.

710
00:37:59,489 --> 00:38:01,840
Speaker 2: They weren't trying to maximize their money. They're trying to

711
00:38:01,890 --> 00:38:04,960
Speaker 2: maximize their group status by making twice as much as

712
00:38:05,040 --> 00:38:05,560
Speaker 2: another group.

713
00:38:06,250 --> 00:38:09,020
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, I think this is fascinating when you

714
00:38:09,060 --> 00:38:12,020
Speaker 3: look at it in the terms of like the idea

715
00:38:12,040 --> 00:38:16,780
Speaker 3: of like socialism versus capitalism and making sure everyone's taken

716
00:38:16,820 --> 00:38:19,319
Speaker 3: care of versus like, screw that guy. I want the

717
00:38:19,360 --> 00:38:20,410
Speaker 3: most for myself.

718
00:38:20,739 --> 00:38:20,930
Speaker 2: Right.

719
00:38:21,230 --> 00:38:22,930
Speaker 3: These are teenagers. It's a little distressing.

720
00:38:23,230 --> 00:38:27,049
Speaker 2: For sure. There's another one that we turned up in

721
00:38:27,070 --> 00:38:30,950
Speaker 2: the Journal of Neuroscience from 2021, and it used a

722
00:38:30,989 --> 00:38:34,489
Speaker 2: brain scan study. This was 34 people. I don't know

723
00:38:34,550 --> 00:38:36,810
Speaker 2: how many were involved in the other one you just mentioned,

724
00:38:36,830 --> 00:38:40,569
Speaker 2: but these people had their brain scanned. So they were

725
00:38:40,630 --> 00:38:42,810
Speaker 2: figuring out what part of their brain they were using

726
00:38:42,830 --> 00:38:44,730
Speaker 2: while they were doing this. But the thing that really

727
00:38:44,770 --> 00:38:47,530
Speaker 2: has to do with social identity theory is that they

728
00:38:47,840 --> 00:38:52,469
Speaker 2: showed people like a video of somebody doing something. This

729
00:38:52,510 --> 00:38:55,970
Speaker 2: wasn't it, but say carrying a tray full of beer steins,

730
00:38:56,030 --> 00:38:57,200
Speaker 2: full beer steins, right?

731
00:38:57,219 --> 00:38:57,680
Speaker 3: Okay.

732
00:38:58,180 --> 00:39:01,540
Speaker 2: And you were watching somebody give it a shot and

733
00:39:02,380 --> 00:39:06,890
Speaker 2: then you tried it yourself, right? And if you saw somebody, say,

734
00:39:06,950 --> 00:39:09,680
Speaker 2: like lifting it with both hands and they were successful

735
00:39:10,030 --> 00:39:12,480
Speaker 2: or trying to lift it from the bottom and it

736
00:39:12,560 --> 00:39:16,080
Speaker 2: fell over, if you thought that person was a member

737
00:39:16,219 --> 00:39:19,680
Speaker 2: of a rival out group, in this case, Democrats or Republicans,

738
00:39:20,060 --> 00:39:23,650
Speaker 2: you would not learn from their mistake or their successful

739
00:39:23,710 --> 00:39:26,129
Speaker 2: way of doing it when you tried it. It's like

740
00:39:26,170 --> 00:39:29,310
Speaker 2: you would refuse to learn from the enemy or this

741
00:39:29,489 --> 00:39:32,000
Speaker 2: out group. even if it would help you.

742
00:39:33,060 --> 00:39:34,799
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's fascinating to me.

743
00:39:35,300 --> 00:39:38,580
Speaker 2: It is like super fascinating and it really kind of

744
00:39:38,640 --> 00:39:41,160
Speaker 2: jibes and makes sense. But a lot of people are like,

745
00:39:41,180 --> 00:39:45,319
Speaker 2: there's some real criticisms we can level against this. And

746
00:39:45,460 --> 00:39:47,860
Speaker 2: one of them is, okay, you guys are scanning 34

747
00:39:47,860 --> 00:39:51,580
Speaker 2: people's brains. You're studying like 16 Boy Scouts, you know,

748
00:39:51,620 --> 00:39:55,160
Speaker 2: like the stakes are really low here. If you take

749
00:39:55,219 --> 00:39:58,680
Speaker 2: this and apply it into the real world at higher stakes,

750
00:39:59,140 --> 00:40:04,550
Speaker 2: like say expressing prejudice or bias against another group publicly,

751
00:40:04,950 --> 00:40:08,430
Speaker 2: and then potentially have being ostracized or shamed or whatever

752
00:40:08,489 --> 00:40:11,069
Speaker 2: in response, like are people still going to carry out

753
00:40:11,110 --> 00:40:13,610
Speaker 2: these behaviors? Like, does it hold up in the real world?

754
00:40:14,340 --> 00:40:18,880
Speaker 3: Yeah, for sure. And also this idea that like, kind

755
00:40:18,900 --> 00:40:20,900
Speaker 3: of what you were talking about earlier is sometimes with

756
00:40:20,920 --> 00:40:22,820
Speaker 3: these studies, I feel like there's a lack of nuance.

757
00:40:23,760 --> 00:40:27,320
Speaker 3: And so this idea that personal, that like the difference

758
00:40:27,400 --> 00:40:30,660
Speaker 3: between personal identity and group identity isn't just so cut

759
00:40:30,680 --> 00:40:33,590
Speaker 3: and dried as Tosh Bell and Turner think of it

760
00:40:33,650 --> 00:40:37,049
Speaker 3: or propose that it is. And there have been other

761
00:40:37,150 --> 00:40:42,209
Speaker 3: social psychologists, one in particular named Masaki Yuki, who says that,

762
00:40:42,950 --> 00:40:45,290
Speaker 3: or at least he argues that you know what, the

763
00:40:45,330 --> 00:40:49,340
Speaker 3: social identity theory has its limits. If the society is

764
00:40:49,380 --> 00:40:54,000
Speaker 3: a little more collectivist, like in East Asia was his example.

765
00:40:54,180 --> 00:40:57,140
Speaker 3: And I think that makes sense because, you know, again,

766
00:40:57,280 --> 00:41:00,360
Speaker 3: if you're taking these like small groups of like 60

767
00:41:00,360 --> 00:41:03,589
Speaker 3: teenagers or these Boy Scouts, it's hard to extrapolate that

768
00:41:03,630 --> 00:41:05,170
Speaker 3: to like, and this is true.

769
00:41:05,030 --> 00:41:06,370
Speaker 2: All over the world. It is.

770
00:41:06,690 --> 00:41:06,950
Speaker 1: It is.

771
00:41:07,150 --> 00:41:10,370
Speaker 2: And I saw someone say like it is universal people

772
00:41:10,489 --> 00:41:15,440
Speaker 2: discriminating against outgroups in favor of their in-groups. And you

773
00:41:15,460 --> 00:41:17,440
Speaker 2: can make a case like there's a lot of rivalries

774
00:41:17,500 --> 00:41:21,580
Speaker 2: between Japanese baseball teams in Japan. Oh, sure. You know,

775
00:41:21,600 --> 00:41:26,050
Speaker 2: there's rivalries between China and Japan and South Korea and Japan. Yeah.

776
00:41:26,070 --> 00:41:29,210
Speaker 2: Like it does exist in one form or another. I

777
00:41:29,270 --> 00:41:32,149
Speaker 2: think that's probably what Tajfell and Turner would point to

778
00:41:32,250 --> 00:41:35,029
Speaker 2: if they were both still alive. They could be pointing

779
00:41:35,070 --> 00:41:37,319
Speaker 2: from their graves right now. We wouldn't know, though.

780
00:41:37,820 --> 00:41:41,980
Speaker 3: That's right. So back to the study with the kids

781
00:41:42,100 --> 00:41:47,600
Speaker 3: choosing to pay the other groups less. Again, very distressed

782
00:41:47,640 --> 00:41:51,060
Speaker 3: about that. They thought like, hey, we nailed that study, everybody,

783
00:41:51,080 --> 00:41:55,020
Speaker 3: because that really bolsters this idea that bias can occur

784
00:41:55,219 --> 00:41:59,250
Speaker 3: in the absence of conflict. Like there was no reason

785
00:41:59,270 --> 00:42:02,029
Speaker 3: for these groups to like not want the other group

786
00:42:02,070 --> 00:42:05,430
Speaker 3: to have as much money. Yet they still did. And

787
00:42:05,770 --> 00:42:09,980
Speaker 3: this idea of the desire for positive social identity. can

788
00:42:10,020 --> 00:42:14,989
Speaker 3: lead to bias because the students chose those financial options

789
00:42:15,050 --> 00:42:18,670
Speaker 3: that made them different from the other group, even, even

790
00:42:18,710 --> 00:42:19,610
Speaker 3: to their own detriment.

791
00:42:19,850 --> 00:42:22,750
Speaker 2: Yeah. And just to restate again, these kids had nothing

792
00:42:22,810 --> 00:42:25,509
Speaker 2: in common. They weren't even in the groups that they

793
00:42:25,590 --> 00:42:28,870
Speaker 2: thought they were in. And yet that immediate sense of

794
00:42:28,930 --> 00:42:32,800
Speaker 2: group membership made them discriminate against people who they thought

795
00:42:32,820 --> 00:42:33,580
Speaker 2: were in other groups.

796
00:42:34,440 --> 00:42:35,100
Speaker 3: Yeah, for sure.

797
00:42:35,540 --> 00:42:40,660
Speaker 2: Yeah. So, um, I think Taj fell and Turner would

798
00:42:40,700 --> 00:42:42,899
Speaker 2: be like, Hey, we're still pointing. Let's talk about some

799
00:42:42,920 --> 00:42:45,200
Speaker 2: of this, this stuff in, in real world. Like you

800
00:42:45,239 --> 00:42:50,380
Speaker 2: want some real world proof. How about some anecdotal proof? Everybody. Yeah.

801
00:42:50,500 --> 00:42:53,529
Speaker 3: And one great example, they came up with, uh, where

802
00:42:53,550 --> 00:42:57,469
Speaker 3: a group particular group used social creativity to achieve like

803
00:42:57,510 --> 00:43:00,049
Speaker 3: a positive distinctiveness that they were talking about, which can

804
00:43:00,070 --> 00:43:03,610
Speaker 3: be attained was the black is beautiful movement in the

805
00:43:04,010 --> 00:43:07,080
Speaker 3: 1960s when black Americans were like, you know what, we're

806
00:43:07,100 --> 00:43:09,440
Speaker 3: sort of tired of hearing about how this idea of

807
00:43:09,480 --> 00:43:12,860
Speaker 3: beauty is so Eurocentric and, you know, blonde hair and

808
00:43:12,880 --> 00:43:15,620
Speaker 3: blue eyes is all that. Like, no, no, black is beautiful.

809
00:43:16,239 --> 00:43:19,110
Speaker 3: Our skin color is beautiful. Our hair and our culture

810
00:43:19,370 --> 00:43:24,029
Speaker 3: is all beautiful. And just the black aesthetic was like

811
00:43:24,110 --> 00:43:27,240
Speaker 3: fully embraced and touted as a movement. And that did a,

812
00:43:27,810 --> 00:43:30,590
Speaker 3: I think that was a huge like cultural change in

813
00:43:30,610 --> 00:43:31,410
Speaker 3: the 1960s.

814
00:43:31,750 --> 00:43:34,290
Speaker 2: Yeah. And that was a great example of social creativity, right?

815
00:43:34,730 --> 00:43:34,870
Speaker 3: Yeah.

816
00:43:35,390 --> 00:43:40,210
Speaker 2: And then another example of social creativity is poor white racism,

817
00:43:41,030 --> 00:43:47,610
Speaker 2: where a group, in this case, poor white Americans... choose

818
00:43:47,650 --> 00:43:51,750
Speaker 2: to discriminate against poor black Americans because they are capable

819
00:43:51,770 --> 00:43:54,780
Speaker 2: of feeling superior of the other group rather than comparing

820
00:43:54,820 --> 00:44:01,239
Speaker 2: themselves to wealthy white Americans. And then kind of fast

821
00:44:01,280 --> 00:44:04,319
Speaker 2: forwarding to today, there's also a lot. I mean, it's

822
00:44:04,340 --> 00:44:07,120
Speaker 2: still very much going on. Like in the United States,

823
00:44:07,860 --> 00:44:11,760
Speaker 2: the more you identify with not just your political party,

824
00:44:11,820 --> 00:44:15,430
Speaker 2: but like what your political party stands for, The more

825
00:44:15,450 --> 00:44:18,830
Speaker 2: you take that on yourself as part of your identity,

826
00:44:19,230 --> 00:44:23,090
Speaker 2: the more likely you are to view the opposing party

827
00:44:23,550 --> 00:44:28,600
Speaker 2: as bad people, as dumb, as not having any idea

828
00:44:28,680 --> 00:44:30,700
Speaker 2: what you're supposed to do with the country, that kind

829
00:44:30,760 --> 00:44:31,100
Speaker 2: of stuff.

830
00:44:31,780 --> 00:44:34,180
Speaker 3: Yeah, for sure. There are people that argue that in

831
00:44:34,239 --> 00:44:39,680
Speaker 3: order to radicalize somebody into maybe an extremist group, it

832
00:44:39,760 --> 00:44:43,489
Speaker 3: really helps when you appeal to them. with a real

833
00:44:43,530 --> 00:44:47,049
Speaker 3: distinctive identity for the in-group that they're trying to get

834
00:44:47,090 --> 00:44:47,919
Speaker 3: you in. Yes.

835
00:44:49,040 --> 00:44:55,220
Speaker 2: Another one is that products, like domestic versus foreign-made products.

836
00:44:55,640 --> 00:44:56,060
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah.

837
00:44:56,380 --> 00:45:03,299
Speaker 2: That in-group, out-group predicts that, your sense of ethnocentrism or nationalism. Sure.

838
00:45:03,700 --> 00:45:05,850
Speaker 2: And then musical preference. There was a study done by

839
00:45:05,870 --> 00:45:09,989
Speaker 2: a guy named Daniel Shepard who found that the more

840
00:45:10,110 --> 00:45:14,290
Speaker 2: strongly you identify with your musical preference, the more likely

841
00:45:14,310 --> 00:45:18,410
Speaker 2: you were to say, say other musical preferences suck. And, um,

842
00:45:18,469 --> 00:45:21,850
Speaker 2: that reminded me of disco demolition night from 1979. You

843
00:45:21,890 --> 00:45:22,350
Speaker 2: remember that?

844
00:45:22,690 --> 00:45:23,230
Speaker 3: Yeah, for sure.

845
00:45:23,310 --> 00:45:26,430
Speaker 2: Where all those rockers like rioted because they hated disco

846
00:45:26,469 --> 00:45:26,950
Speaker 2: so much.

847
00:45:27,450 --> 00:45:27,730
Speaker 3: Yeah.

848
00:45:29,030 --> 00:45:32,590
Speaker 2: Um, and I guess that's about it. Like, yeah, duh,

849
00:45:32,750 --> 00:45:35,170
Speaker 2: definitely sums it up. But to me, it was like

850
00:45:35,250 --> 00:45:37,370
Speaker 2: the nuts and bolts of the whole thing that were so, uh,

851
00:45:38,450 --> 00:45:40,950
Speaker 2: interesting that in your, all of your awesome examples.

852
00:45:41,760 --> 00:45:45,960
Speaker 3: Well, I really enjoyed that study of the kids choosing

853
00:45:46,000 --> 00:45:48,040
Speaker 3: to pay the other kids less. I thought that was fascinating.

854
00:45:48,340 --> 00:45:49,950
Speaker 3: And I think a lot of this stuff is fairly

855
00:45:49,989 --> 00:45:53,569
Speaker 3: fascinating at the end of the day. Good. I think

856
00:45:53,610 --> 00:45:54,319
Speaker 3: it won me over a bit.

857
00:45:54,570 --> 00:45:57,830
Speaker 2: Good. I'm glad. Well, since Chuck's been won over, you

858
00:45:57,870 --> 00:46:00,550
Speaker 2: know everybody. That automatically triggers listener mail.

859
00:46:05,050 --> 00:46:08,469
Speaker 3: I'm going to do the shorter one around this one. So, hey, guys.

860
00:46:09,050 --> 00:46:11,529
Speaker 3: In the Judy Blume episode, you guys were talking about

861
00:46:11,590 --> 00:46:14,910
Speaker 3: we must, we must, we must increase our bust. That

862
00:46:14,950 --> 00:46:18,380
Speaker 3: actually wasn't invented by Blume. She's the same generation as

863
00:46:18,440 --> 00:46:20,960
Speaker 3: my mother, and they did that in junior high school.

864
00:46:21,640 --> 00:46:23,800
Speaker 3: The rest of the rhyme, according to my mom, goes,

865
00:46:24,340 --> 00:46:27,800
Speaker 3: the bigger the better, the tighter the sweater, the boys

866
00:46:27,860 --> 00:46:31,590
Speaker 3: are counting on us. Judy Blume and Beverly Cleary shaped

867
00:46:31,610 --> 00:46:34,310
Speaker 3: generations of young mind guys. That is from Margo in

868
00:46:34,350 --> 00:46:37,009
Speaker 3: New York City, and we had a few different people

869
00:46:37,030 --> 00:46:38,759
Speaker 3: write in and tell us that, and I I tried

870
00:46:38,780 --> 00:46:43,000
Speaker 3: to find online like the origination of that and almost

871
00:46:43,080 --> 00:46:45,680
Speaker 3: everything says Judy Blume until you dig into Reddit and

872
00:46:45,700 --> 00:46:49,620
Speaker 3: then somebody has a pretty exhaustive list of like, you know,

873
00:46:49,660 --> 00:46:51,900
Speaker 3: in the 1950s it was used in this thing and

874
00:46:51,960 --> 00:46:53,500
Speaker 3: it was used in this thing. But I don't think

875
00:46:53,540 --> 00:46:55,489
Speaker 3: anyone ever nailed like the first person to say it.

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Speaker 2: Good old Reddit.

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Speaker 3: Good old Reddit.

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Speaker 2: That was from Margo?

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Speaker 3: That was Margo in New York City.

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Speaker 2: Awesome. Thanks a lot, Margo. That was wonderful. And if

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Speaker 2: you want to be like Margo and make us laugh

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Speaker 2: and delight us, you can send us an email too.

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Speaker 2: Send it off to stuffpodcast at iheartradio.com.

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Speaker 1: Stuff You Should Know is a production of iHeartRadio. For

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Speaker 1: more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,

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Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.