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Speaker 1: This program features the individual opinions of the hosts, guests,

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Speaker 1: and callers, and not necessarily those of the producer, the station,

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Speaker 1: it's affiliates, or sponsors. This is True Crime Tonight.

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Speaker 2: Welcome to True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio. We're talking true

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Speaker 2: crime all the time. I'm Stephanie Leidecker and I'm here

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Speaker 2: with my two favorite ladies on this beautiful Sunday night.

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Speaker 2: Body move in, Courtney Armstrong. I hope you has a

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Speaker 2: wonderful weekend. Absolutely, I partey had a little bit of rain.

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Speaker 3: Yeah that's of rain for you, but it was absolutely wonderful.

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Speaker 3: Living in southern California, rain is not frequent, and this

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Speaker 3: was the actual first weekend since August where there wasn't

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Speaker 3: things to do both Saturday and Sunday.

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Speaker 2: So it was a weekend at home and it was fabulous.

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Speaker 4: I love it.

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Speaker 2: I like that.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, cabinets are organized, bills are paid.

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Speaker 2: I'm ready to go. Let's got Christmas tree up? Yay.

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Speaker 2: I know I suddenly crossed over to that person. I

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Speaker 2: know it. That's the annoying person who's bringing in the

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Speaker 2: holidays way too soon. But you know what I'm calling

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Speaker 2: it this year, it's time let's bring on the cheer, cheer,

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Speaker 2: cheer times. You know, I'm bringing in holiday festivities no

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Speaker 2: matter what. And yeah, Boddy, you had a good weekend.

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Speaker 4: I did it rained heres all weekend as well. All

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Speaker 4: weekend it was rainy, rainy, rainy, and I put together

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Speaker 4: some furniture. I got a new bookshelf. I yeah, I

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Speaker 4: was doing I was doing a lot of housework stuff.

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Speaker 2: These little nesters, both of you, little busy bees doing

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Speaker 2: all this, you know, these home improvements about you. I

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Speaker 2: was gallivanting the entire weekend. And yes, and it was

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Speaker 2: beautiful weather in Nashville, and I feel like I've been

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Speaker 2: fancying and free just bringing in some holiday cheer, come

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Speaker 2: hell or high water. I normally hate that person and

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Speaker 2: find it you're super annoying for the holidays to begin

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Speaker 2: a second before Thanksgiving, like not even a second even

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Speaker 2: that's a little bit rushing it. I love it. I

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Speaker 2: love Christmas is my favorite. Bring it on, bring it on. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: So here we are and listen. It's Sunday, November sixteenth,

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Speaker 2: and we have a stack Night of Forensics. Because it

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Speaker 2: is scientific Sunday, everybody. We have Joseph Scott Morgan, our

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Speaker 2: most favorite forensics expert and host of the true crime

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Speaker 2: podcast Body Bags with us to unpack a lot of

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Speaker 2: different things. We're going to be doing a deep dive

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Speaker 2: into sort of prisons executions. There's been quite a few

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Speaker 2: of them up for discussion in the last few days alone.

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Speaker 2: Not so many executions, but the discussion of rather and listen,

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Speaker 2: we are not living under a rock. Obviously, It's been

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Speaker 2: a very big news weekend surrounding all things Epstein. It

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Speaker 2: feels like this is not the night to really do

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Speaker 2: the deep dive. So tomorrow and likely a lot of

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Speaker 2: this week will be heavy on the Epstein front. So

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Speaker 2: we are of course tracking that very closely, and we'll

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Speaker 2: have so much to talk about tomorrow. But we felt

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Speaker 2: as though Sundays should remain a little forensically sacred. What

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Speaker 2: do you think, raise your hand if you absolutely, absolutely

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Speaker 2: is right. And also there have been some other new

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Speaker 2: developments too. That Las Vegas pornstar who beheaded her ex

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Speaker 2: she's been found guilty, so we're going to dig into

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Speaker 2: the forensics of that. Also an inmate. This is a

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Speaker 2: story very close to Joseph Scott Morgan's heart ours as well,

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Speaker 2: who died of hypothermia behind bars. We're going to dig

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Speaker 2: into some of the forensics to that so complicated night,

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Speaker 2: important night, busy night. We are so glad that you

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Speaker 2: are here and hope that you too had a beautiful weekend.

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Speaker 2: And if you are dreading Monday, no no, no, no,

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Speaker 2: do not, because it's going to be an excellent week

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Speaker 2: ahead and we're so happy to get to spend this

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Speaker 2: evening with you prior so, if you want to jump

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Speaker 2: in and join the convo eight eight eight three one

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Speaker 2: crime or leave us a talk back. You guys have

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Speaker 2: been doing great with those. We'll play some of them tonight,

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Speaker 2: or you can always hit us up on our socials

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Speaker 2: at True Crime Tonight's show on Instagram or TikTok or

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Speaker 2: at True Crime Tonight on Facebook. Ladies, Courtney, where should

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Speaker 2: we begin? We will put all of the merry aside

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Speaker 2: and buckle up for some real talk about all things executions.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, there's a lot of important stuff going on. In

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Speaker 3: the last week alone, there were three scheduled executions and

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Speaker 3: they all came to really distinct ends that highlight sort

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Speaker 3: of national trends regarding capital punishment. It's a lot of

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Speaker 3: information and here we go, so in Oklahoma, Tremaine Wood

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Speaker 3: was spared execution. This was just minutes before his lethal injection,

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Speaker 3: and that happened because the sentence was commuted from death

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Speaker 3: to life without parole, so we have a commutation. And

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Speaker 3: then in South Carolina Stephen Bryant, who was convicted of

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Speaker 3: a triple murder back in two thousand and four on

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Speaker 3: a killing spree, he was executed by a pretty rare

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Speaker 3: firing squad. And thirdly, Florida executed Brian Frederick Jennings by

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Speaker 3: lethal injection. And that marks the state's sixteenth execution in

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Speaker 3: this year alone.

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Speaker 2: Which is a pretty big uptick, right, that's you know,

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Speaker 2: probably a very large number compared to the previous years.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, So here's some of the trends which was very interesting,

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Speaker 3: and the research on this was great.

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Speaker 2: Produce ev everybody else.

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Speaker 3: So twenty twenty five, it marks the highest use of

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Speaker 3: capital punishment in the United States over a decade. So

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Speaker 3: you are totally correct, Stephanie. Forty three people have been

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Speaker 3: executed since January. But across the country, states are moving

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Speaker 3: in really radically different directions on the penalty. There's been

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Speaker 3: over one hundred bills introduced this year alone. Some are

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Speaker 3: looking to expand the scope, right, and they want to

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Speaker 3: expand it to crimes like killing police officers, to sexual

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Speaker 3: offenses against children and offenses by undocumented immigrants. Other states, however,

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Speaker 3: are attempting to abolish or suspend executions. So it's really

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Speaker 3: running the gamut.

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Speaker 4: I mean, it's such an expensive thing to do. I mean,

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Speaker 4: imagine how expensive it is to put on a death

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Speaker 4: penalty trial, and again you have to pay for appeal

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Speaker 4: after appeal after appeal, and now you want to expand it.

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Speaker 4: That is going to be incredibly costly. I cannot imagine

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Speaker 4: that it's going to happen.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and those appeals typically do go for literal decades

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Speaker 3: and decades.

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Speaker 2: I think the argument probably prior to working in true

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Speaker 2: crime as closely as we now do, I think back

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Speaker 2: in the day, I always thought, well, you know, and

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Speaker 2: again this is not my personal opinion, but you would

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Speaker 2: think finances came into play. You have to house somebody

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Speaker 2: for life that's committed atrocious crimes that they've confessed to

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Speaker 2: you know, is it just less expensive, more humane to

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Speaker 2: just put an end to it and move on. And

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Speaker 2: in reality, it's much more expensive to actually put somebody

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Speaker 2: to death. The numbers are really pretty glaringly different where

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Speaker 2: it's it's far more expensive to your point A, because

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Speaker 2: of the special circumstances required legally to have a death sentenced,

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Speaker 2: you know, trial, and then additionally, just the act of

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Speaker 2: executing somebody has also become very controversial, even the three

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Speaker 2: that you just listed, one of them being by firing squad. Obviously,

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Speaker 2: this was brought up in the Brian Coburger case. Had

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Speaker 2: he been put to death, firing squad was kind of

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Speaker 2: the first option on his particular list in Idaho. Obviously,

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Speaker 2: he pled guilty to the murder of four college students

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Speaker 2: and that never came to play. We thought that was

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Speaker 2: very barbaric, and it seems like what are we talking about?

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Speaker 2: This is like from the teen oh one and in reality,

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Speaker 2: And we'll talk to Joseph Scott Morgan later about this.

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Speaker 2: That's considered one of the more humane versions of execution

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Speaker 2: by many, including Joseph himself. Not to put words in

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Speaker 2: his mouth for reasons he can explain. So I don't

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Speaker 2: know how I feel about it. I will say, until

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Speaker 2: a family member is taken an a vicious way, it's

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Speaker 2: like that's when your vote really starts to kick in, right.

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Speaker 2: I don't know. I've never been in that scenario, but

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Speaker 2: I definitely have covered enough cases to know that innocent

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Speaker 2: people have been put on death row and execute you.

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Speaker 5: Know, JEF, I was just going to chime in really

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Speaker 5: quick because I'm one of those people that was always

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Speaker 5: a bit confused with the cost. I always assumed it

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Speaker 5: would have been cheaper to execute someone, but I had

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Speaker 5: to kind of before this. I started looking at up

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Speaker 5: myself because it never made sense and everyone has always

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Speaker 5: said it, but some states have documented that a single

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Speaker 5: death penalty case can cost between three and five million dollars,

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Speaker 5: while life without parole may cost one to two million

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Speaker 5: dollars over an entire lifetime. And then I had to

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Speaker 5: break it down so I could fully understand, because I

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Speaker 5: really didn't get why it was so much more expensive,

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Speaker 5: but things like longer, more complex trials when it's a

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Speaker 5: death penalty, which all these Again, you guys probably already

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Speaker 5: knew all of this, but some of this was new

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Speaker 5: to me, and maybe some of our listeners may not

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Speaker 5: be aware. But often mandatory appeals often take decades, which

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Speaker 5: is also an added expend and I didn't realize this,

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Speaker 5: but you need specialized lawyers on both sides, which also

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Speaker 5: can make the cost much higher. And additionally, extra security

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Speaker 5: and housing on death row. So those things in conjunction

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Speaker 5: with you know, higher costs for expert testimony and investigations

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Speaker 5: all make it a much more costly expense.

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Speaker 6: So for me, that was a light bulb.

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Speaker 5: That I didn't you know, I've always heard it, but

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Speaker 5: it never really broke it down.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 4: Same, And you know when we talk about you know,

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Speaker 4: the lawyers, you remember and was like one of the

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Speaker 4: only lawyers in Northern Idea in Idaho at the time

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Speaker 4: that could be Brian Coberger's lawyer because she was the

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Speaker 4: only death penalty qualified attorney available.

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Speaker 2: And think about it, the stakes for that are extremely hard.

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Speaker 2: So and just you know, to break it down in

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Speaker 2: Layman's term, we'll use Brian Coberger's example, just since we

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Speaker 2: all know that case at the Idaho student murders. Yes,

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Speaker 2: and Taylor, the defense attorney has special provisions. She's a

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Speaker 2: death sentence attorney. That's a rare provision to have. So

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Speaker 2: you know, those lawyers are very hard to find. They're

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Speaker 2: also extremely expensive and by the way, for a good reason.

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Speaker 2: They are spooning through life and death scenarios, and listen,

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Speaker 2: if you don't have the right lawyer and you find

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Speaker 2: yourself on death row, it's possible you might see death

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Speaker 2: because no one's really gone through your case very carefully.

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Speaker 2: Those are the two sides to it, right, I'm not

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Speaker 2: saying either or Frankly, I think we've seen both. I mean, Cortney,

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Speaker 2: not to put words in your mouth, but we've covered

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Speaker 2: multiple cases that we've felt very strongly that the person

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Speaker 2: that was looking at death row was in fact innocent.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, you can, absolutely, and there's facts to back it up.

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Speaker 3: If you want to join in the conversation on all

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Speaker 3: these changes that are happening with death sentence penalties, give

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Speaker 3: us a call. We're at eighty eight three one crime,

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Speaker 3: so you know a couple of risks or factors. Black

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Speaker 3: inmates are way more likely to experience botched executions. Over

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Speaker 3: two hundred prisoners have been exonerated from death row since

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Speaker 3: the seventies. It's a lot of people who, you know,

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Speaker 3: a mistake of death could have been made. And this

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Speaker 3: one's staggering. For every eight point two people who have

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Speaker 3: been executed in the era, you know, today's modern era,

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Speaker 3: one person has been exonerated, so one in eight.

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Speaker 2: That actually indeed so they they've done.

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Speaker 4: Sixteen in Florida this year already, so true of those

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Speaker 4: people may have statistically, statistically speaking, may have been innocent.

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Speaker 2: And by the way, you don't have the representation. So

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Speaker 2: if you look at the math, I mean, listen, it

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Speaker 2: is wildly disproportionate in terms of white versus people of

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Speaker 2: color who are experiencing these issues on death row. I

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Speaker 2: mean that's a fact. Let alone you find yourself there.

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Speaker 2: God forbid, you don't have resources or money to pay

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Speaker 2: for the greatest lawyer of all time. Like we said,

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Speaker 2: having a proper death sentence lawyer is very, very expensive.

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Speaker 2: Imagine you're accused of a crime you didn't commit and

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Speaker 2: you're getting railroaded and you can afford a good lawyer.

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Speaker 2: Guess what, you don't get to play again. I don't

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Speaker 2: want to say specific names because I know these are

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Speaker 2: things that are happening in real time. Courtney and I

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Speaker 2: worked on a case a while back. It was devastating,

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Speaker 2: and it was so hard to be in the behive

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Speaker 2: of it, and you really saw things differently from the

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Speaker 2: inside versus the outside. And at the time it's the

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Speaker 2: Rodney reed case. I can say that we were working

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Speaker 2: on this. He is a black man who was sentenced

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Speaker 2: to death and by the way he was and we

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Speaker 2: thought he was innocent of the crimes he was being

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Speaker 2: accused of and still do. Maybe not the perfect person

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Speaker 2: by the way, so that became layered and complicated. But

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Speaker 2: for the crime that he was being accused of, there

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Speaker 2: was actual DNA that wasn't being tested by the then judge,

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Speaker 2: and Kim Kardashian tweeded about it right before his execution

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Speaker 2: was supposed to happen, and guess what, he got a

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Speaker 2: stay of execution. It pushed his death date. He remains

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Speaker 2: alive to this day because of Kim Kardashian's tweet. Yep,

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Speaker 2: wow and by the way, say what you want. That

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Speaker 2: was a beautiful thing because we were actually working on

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Speaker 2: that case real time and cried and we're so grateful

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Speaker 2: that his life was spared until there was more information

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Speaker 2: gathered and he had the opportunity to defend himself properly.

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Speaker 2: But it shouldn't require Kim Kardashian to tweet for justice

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Speaker 2: to happen. That in and of itself, by the way,

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Speaker 2: she did the right thing and It was a beautiful thing.

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Speaker 2: But like that's you shouldn't require a documentary or celebrity

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Speaker 2: to make noise for the justice system to work in

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Speaker 2: your favor. And oftentimes it's whoever has the most cash

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Speaker 2: who can pay for a lawyer wins. Right, Most people

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Speaker 2: with money don't end up on death row. That's right.

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Speaker 3: We are racing to the break, but I wanted to

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Speaker 3: get two more things out that kind of rocked my world.

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Speaker 3: Some states that are broadening eligibility are including abortion related

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Speaker 3: offenses that had not previously been on the table. Other

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Speaker 3: states who are restricting it include Georgia, who are now

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Speaker 3: prohibiting executions for those with intellectual disabilities.

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Speaker 4: Wow. Wow, When we come back, Joseph Scott Morgan is

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Speaker 4: going to join us and he's going to break down

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Speaker 4: what really happened inside of freezing Alabama jail cell where

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Speaker 4: an inmate diet. Keep it right here, True Printment.

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Speaker 2: Welcome back to True Crime tonight on iHeartRadio. We're talking

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Speaker 2: true crime all the time. Happy Sunday, everybody. We hope

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Speaker 2: you had a beautiful weekend. It's Scientific Sunday and we

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Speaker 2: are so happy to have Joseph Scartt Morgan our very

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Speaker 2: favorite forensics expert and host of the hit podcast Body

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Speaker 2: Bags backed with us as always on Sundays, I'm Stephanie

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Speaker 2: Lai Decker here with Courtney Armstrong, Body move In. Sam

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Speaker 2: and Adam and Taha are here as well. We are

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Speaker 2: all thinking science and forensics. Listen. It has been a

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Speaker 2: heavy weekend, so there's plenty of breaking news to get

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Speaker 2: to tomorrow. But in this exact moment, we are breaking

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Speaker 2: down forensics, which I think is like slightly comforting, although

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Speaker 2: this first case, Joseph, that I know is so close

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Speaker 2: to your heart, is frankly the opposite of comforting, maybe

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Speaker 2: the saddest thing I've ever heard. So Courtney, why don't

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Speaker 2: you set the table for us a little bit?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, Stephanie doesn't exaggerate. This is incredibly sad and incredibly important.

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Speaker 3: We felt it was very important to cover, and Joseph

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Speaker 3: really championed it, just to know that this kind of

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Speaker 3: stuff goes on, because it hasn't been getting much attention.

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Speaker 3: So a man named Tony Mitchell, he was mentally ill.

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Speaker 3: He was arrested. This was during a welfare check back

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Speaker 3: in January of twenty twenty three. He then was brought

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Speaker 3: to jail, was held for two weeks in an extremely cold,

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Speaker 3: extremely unsanitary concrete cell.

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Speaker 2: And this was in an Alabama jail.

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Speaker 3: While he was there for those two weeks, officers of

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Speaker 3: medical staff they repeatedly denied the very most basic of care.

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Speaker 3: Tony Mitchell died of hypothermia and sepsis, and this was

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Speaker 3: after woefully belatedly he was finally transported to a hospital.

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Speaker 3: It has prompted a massive federal investigation into abuse and

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Speaker 3: corruption within the jail, and as of the most recent updates,

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Speaker 3: twenty five people, including corrections officers, deputies, and medical staff,

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Speaker 3: they have been indicted or have pleaded guilty in connection

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Speaker 3: with Mitchell's death and related civil rights violations. It was

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Speaker 3: in my estimation this man was portrayed to death. But Joseph,

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Speaker 3: we're going to let you go ahead and speak a

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Speaker 3: little more about the details.

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Speaker 7: Yeah, yeah, you know, you know, guys, Hey, it's great

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Speaker 7: to be welcome justice. Yeah, well, thank you. Love being

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Speaker 7: with my friends here. Yeah, this case, really, you know,

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Speaker 7: just broke my heart. It's in my home state and

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Speaker 7: we've been hearing about it around here, you know, ever

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Speaker 7: since this went down, and it was just absolutely I

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Speaker 7: don't know, it was a real punch and a gut

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Speaker 7: because you don't think that that your neighbors could treat

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Speaker 7: anybody this way. And it's in a rural county that's

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Speaker 7: on the other side, on the west side of Birmingham,

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Speaker 7: so headed out. If you've ever driven down I twenty

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Speaker 7: go through Birmingham, you're headed westbound, you're going to pass

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Speaker 7: adjacent to it. So the Chudwin was in mental health crisis.

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Speaker 7: Tony was and his family had summoned the local police

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Speaker 7: to the house for a mental health check because he

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Speaker 7: was just he had become unhinged. And I still don't

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Speaker 7: have the full story as to whether or not he

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Speaker 7: was either non medicated or undermedicated or whatever the case

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Speaker 7: might have been. At any rate, he had taken black

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Speaker 7: paint put it all over his body, and when the

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Speaker 7: police arrived, he was actually saying that he was seeing

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Speaker 7: portals to Hell. And this is in the backyard, so

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Speaker 7: off he flees. You know, they're trying to stop him,

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Speaker 7: and he has a weapon, fires it at them, doesn't

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Speaker 7: strike anybody, and they subdue him and it's at this

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Speaker 7: point in time that they take him to the county jail,

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Speaker 7: and that's where the true horror begins and it was

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Speaker 7: the beginning of the end of Tony's life. And I

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Speaker 7: don't know, I've cover a lot of cases, guys, And

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Speaker 7: you know, even back the same year, actually we had

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Speaker 7: another case over in Atlanta where a guy was eaten

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Speaker 7: a live by bed bucks and in a jail cell. Yeah,

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Speaker 7: at the Rice Street jail where I've worked Deak before.

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Speaker 7: So this sort of thing does go on Tony's case

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Speaker 7: in particular, is it really tugs at your heartstrings because

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Speaker 7: you've got a guy that's really helpless and hopeless. The

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Speaker 7: cell that they put him in give you, guys, a

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Speaker 7: real insight into this. The staff called the cell get

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Speaker 7: ready for this freezer. Well they called it that because

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Speaker 7: there was a natural hold that existed in this environment

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Speaker 7: even during the summertime. No table, no chairs, no bed.

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Speaker 7: He's on bear concrete and there's a drain in the

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Speaker 7: center of the floor and there's no toilet, there's no sink.

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Speaker 7: So just imagine being in that environment and you're in

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Speaker 7: this crisis where you think you're being chased by demons.

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Speaker 7: It's one of the most cruel things I've heard of.

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Speaker 4: And you said he was covered in black paint when

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Speaker 4: he was arrested and they didn't take him at the hospital.

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Speaker 2: Isn't that I mean?

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Speaker 7: I think, no, no, no, hey, listen, no, sorry, step on you.

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Speaker 7: I got to tell you that was my first reaction. Jesus,

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Speaker 7: Let's get this guy, you know, at least get him

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Speaker 7: calm down, you know, you know, a bulus of adavan

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Speaker 7: or something. Get him calm down, you know, take down

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Speaker 7: the tone here, do what you got to do. Find

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Speaker 7: out what his mental health history is and is he

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Speaker 7: currently on medication. And you never know what's going on

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Speaker 7: with somebody. He may have mingled alcohol with his drugs,

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Speaker 7: he might be taking these drugs, might be non compliant,

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Speaker 7: or some psychiatrists may have prescribed him something that he's

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Speaker 7: got fifteen different substances in his system, and that turns

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Speaker 7: out to be you know, a horrible cocktail as well.

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Speaker 7: And you never know when somebody's going to go off,

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Speaker 7: particularly if they're very fragile. Wow.

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Speaker 4: So they didn't recognize that this talk about demons and

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Speaker 4: portals and whatnot was a mental health situation, and they

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Speaker 4: classified him as combative to justify withholding treatment.

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Speaker 2: I just looked it up.

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Speaker 4: That's very very sad. You phrased that more.

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Speaker 2: Than I say it.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm trying to be I do not believe they

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Speaker 3: were confused. Tony Mitchell, upon arrival, was completely disoriented. He

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Speaker 3: was unable to walk. So how combative are you going

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Speaker 3: to be? He was unable to walk, and as Joseph said,

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Speaker 3: speaking about demons and portals, he was a terrified man.

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Speaker 3: And there's more details, but over the next two weeks

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Speaker 3: he was left naked, wet and covered in feces. This

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Speaker 3: is all on a concrete floor. He had no we

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Speaker 3: had very little access to food, water, sanitation, or of

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Speaker 3: course mental health care. So I don't think they were confused.

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Speaker 7: Let me let me throw one more nugget in here.

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Speaker 7: If you don't mind, that will really chill your blood.

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Speaker 7: It has been said that the staff would taunt him

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Speaker 7: and say, that's what you get for shooting at a

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Speaker 7: cop let that sink in just for a second, and

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Speaker 7: how horrible that is. And I don't even know, you know,

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Speaker 7: in the mental state that he was in, I don't

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Speaker 7: even know if that wretched with him, But I think

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Speaker 7: it says more about their mental state. You know that

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Speaker 7: you could you could disengage from a fellow human being

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Speaker 7: do this to them. See some guy living in a

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Speaker 7: squalid environment while you're by the way, your clothes, you

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Speaker 7: have access to three hot meals and you know you're

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Speaker 7: sitting in a you know, they were in a jail.

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Speaker 7: They got a cushioned seat to sit in. Oh and

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Speaker 7: by the way, they get to go home at night

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Speaker 7: or when the shift is done. I know a lot

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Speaker 7: of really good correctional people. But it's a sacred duty, man.

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Speaker 7: I mean, when someone is arrested, they are and this

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Speaker 7: is I know lawyers will argue with me for saying this,

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Speaker 7: but I view them. I view inmates many times as

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Speaker 7: the facto awards of the state. The state is saying,

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Speaker 7: by arresting you, you're in into a contract with them.

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Speaker 7: By arresting you, we're going to provide for your basic

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Speaker 7: welfare you know Maslov's hierarchy coverage or feed you, will

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Speaker 7: clothe you, will keep you warm, Okay, just as basic

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Speaker 7: needs you know that we talk about. But you know,

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Speaker 7: because of this exposure, it led to this progression, and

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Speaker 7: it fascinating. We always talk about homicides, and people think

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Speaker 7: about homicides in the sense of, well, a pistol was

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Speaker 7: involved or a rifle was involved, or a knife or

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Speaker 7: a stick or whatever the case might be. This is

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Speaker 7: a case of them taking an environmental condition and weaponizing

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Speaker 7: it and using it as a weapon. This is say it.

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Speaker 7: I'm not ashamed. No, you're right, this is a murder man. Yeah.

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Speaker 4: Well they've been indicted, right, they've been But if they've

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Speaker 4: been indicted for I.

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Speaker 7: Mean, well, cruelty. I think one of the charges is death.

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Speaker 7: You know, the way we define homicide, it's very simply

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Speaker 7: put death at the hand of another. That's the clinical

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Speaker 7: way to divide homicide. And in my world, we don't

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Speaker 7: use the term murder. That's a lawyer's word. We say

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Speaker 7: homicide because it breaks it down into a clinical element.

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Speaker 4: Right, This is True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio, where we're

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Speaker 4: talking true crime all the time. I'm body Moving and

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Speaker 4: I'm here with Courtney Armstrong and Stephanie Leidecker and we

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Speaker 4: are joined by Joseph Scott Morgan, and we are talking

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Speaker 4: about the really tragic, let's say, murder of Tony Mitchell,

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Speaker 4: who was a mentally ill man arrested during a welfare

430
00:24:48,720 --> 00:24:51,520
Speaker 4: check in Alabama and they put him in this quote

431
00:24:51,560 --> 00:24:56,159
Speaker 4: unquote freezer of a cell and basically viewed him as

432
00:24:56,160 --> 00:24:58,760
Speaker 4: a non human. I would think at this point, you know,

433
00:24:59,440 --> 00:25:01,840
Speaker 4: you can't could somebody suffering like that and walk away

434
00:25:02,080 --> 00:25:03,400
Speaker 4: unless you view them as non human?

435
00:25:03,480 --> 00:25:05,679
Speaker 7: In my opinion, No, in his chest is still rising

436
00:25:05,680 --> 00:25:08,399
Speaker 7: and falling, Okay, I mean, he's in the land of

437
00:25:08,440 --> 00:25:11,360
Speaker 7: the living, and I'm just thinking, what kind of constitution

438
00:25:11,400 --> 00:25:13,640
Speaker 7: does guy have, you know, to be able to live

439
00:25:13,720 --> 00:25:17,719
Speaker 7: this long under these conditions. There's actually a great CCTV

440
00:25:17,800 --> 00:25:20,399
Speaker 7: photo that's floating around out there of two deputies and

441
00:25:20,440 --> 00:25:24,760
Speaker 7: it's so rife with irony. He's laying on a floor

442
00:25:24,880 --> 00:25:27,560
Speaker 7: in their office and they've got padded chairs that they

443
00:25:27,600 --> 00:25:30,520
Speaker 7: sit in. They're fully clothed, and this guy has his

444
00:25:30,640 --> 00:25:35,520
Speaker 7: hands over his genitals like this. He's completely nude, he's

445
00:25:35,520 --> 00:25:38,639
Speaker 7: got wild hair. He's laid on the floor and you

446
00:25:38,680 --> 00:25:42,520
Speaker 7: can't you know, it looks like he's probably deceased at

447
00:25:42,520 --> 00:25:45,720
Speaker 7: this point. There was actually one nurse that said, y'all

448
00:25:45,720 --> 00:25:49,480
Speaker 7: have got to the hospital, and even when that call

449
00:25:49,520 --> 00:25:55,080
Speaker 7: went out, they still delayed another three hours before the

450
00:25:55,160 --> 00:25:57,840
Speaker 7: jail facilitated him getting there, and then when he rolled

451
00:25:57,840 --> 00:26:03,639
Speaker 7: in the emergency room, his core body temperature was seventy six.

452
00:26:04,080 --> 00:26:05,320
Speaker 4: Oh my god. Wow.

453
00:26:05,560 --> 00:26:09,560
Speaker 7: Yeah, and there's no way you can You're beyond you know,

454
00:26:09,560 --> 00:26:12,600
Speaker 7: once you get down like I've had several hypothermia cases

455
00:26:12,640 --> 00:26:15,840
Speaker 7: with the homeless, particularly in Atlanta, not so much in

456
00:26:15,880 --> 00:26:20,840
Speaker 7: New Orleans. But you know, once you get south of

457
00:26:20,920 --> 00:26:25,080
Speaker 7: like eighty six, essentially you're in danger zone here. And

458
00:26:25,119 --> 00:26:28,520
Speaker 7: this guy had been living like this. And my impression

459
00:26:28,600 --> 00:26:30,520
Speaker 7: is because there's a drain in the center of the floor,

460
00:26:30,640 --> 00:26:32,840
Speaker 7: they're kind of hosing him down like an animal. As

461
00:26:32,840 --> 00:26:35,240
Speaker 7: a matter of fact, you know, Kimmy and I are

462
00:26:35,359 --> 00:26:39,080
Speaker 7: renowned for, you know, rescuing dogs. That's one of the

463
00:26:39,080 --> 00:26:41,360
Speaker 7: things that we do. We'd love to rescue, particularly from

464
00:26:41,440 --> 00:26:46,600
Speaker 7: kill shelters and guys I go to kill shelters where

465
00:26:46,640 --> 00:26:50,760
Speaker 7: the animals are treated better than you know, And so

466
00:26:51,280 --> 00:26:53,440
Speaker 7: that's one of the reasons that really it really struck

467
00:26:53,480 --> 00:26:57,720
Speaker 7: a chord with me because you know, just look, people

468
00:26:57,800 --> 00:27:01,520
Speaker 7: do things to get put in jailer stand that, all right,

469
00:27:01,600 --> 00:27:04,960
Speaker 7: I don't like it when people fire at police officers. No,

470
00:27:05,000 --> 00:27:08,800
Speaker 7: that's it's some reasonable you shouldn't do that. However, again,

471
00:27:08,880 --> 00:27:11,880
Speaker 7: going back to this, who made you judge and jury?

472
00:27:12,119 --> 00:27:15,359
Speaker 7: You know, and you know it's it's just and it

473
00:27:15,400 --> 00:27:18,640
Speaker 7: has wrecked this community for years. And let me ask

474
00:27:18,680 --> 00:27:21,040
Speaker 7: you something. If you lived there, would you want to

475
00:27:21,080 --> 00:27:25,679
Speaker 7: call nine one one if you're you know, brother was

476
00:27:25,680 --> 00:27:29,840
Speaker 7: in distress. I wouldn't. I wouldn't sober handle it. However,

477
00:27:29,840 --> 00:27:30,600
Speaker 7: I can handle it.

478
00:27:30,640 --> 00:27:34,040
Speaker 3: You know, body you earlier had asked about some of

479
00:27:34,080 --> 00:27:38,680
Speaker 3: the specifics on the indictments, so there are different because

480
00:27:38,680 --> 00:27:43,600
Speaker 3: again there's twenty five people up but six employees, including

481
00:27:43,680 --> 00:27:48,640
Speaker 3: the jail captain and supervisor. They were charged with numerous

482
00:27:48,680 --> 00:27:52,679
Speaker 3: federal deprivation of rights and conspiracy. And the allegation is

483
00:27:52,720 --> 00:27:57,840
Speaker 3: that the officers unlawfully punished detainees in the jail for

484
00:27:57,960 --> 00:28:03,080
Speaker 3: the detainees perceived misbehavehavior and at least one please states

485
00:28:03,200 --> 00:28:07,080
Speaker 3: that at the time of Tony Mitchell's death, officers intentionally

486
00:28:07,320 --> 00:28:10,240
Speaker 3: kept the conditions in the jail as filthy as possible.

487
00:28:10,359 --> 00:28:13,240
Speaker 3: That's a quote, and that's to convince the counting commissioners

488
00:28:13,280 --> 00:28:16,160
Speaker 3: to increase salaries and jail bres.

489
00:28:16,200 --> 00:28:20,160
Speaker 2: It's jail budget. Let's not think in I mean really

490
00:28:20,200 --> 00:28:25,000
Speaker 2: hear that. I mean staggering. That's that's pretty staggering. It's,

491
00:28:25,000 --> 00:28:28,359
Speaker 2: by the way, it's not even that common. Yeah, I

492
00:28:28,400 --> 00:28:28,760
Speaker 2: was just going to.

493
00:28:28,800 --> 00:28:32,080
Speaker 4: Say, it's really concerning that there were so many people involved.

494
00:28:32,080 --> 00:28:34,359
Speaker 4: It means that the whole system was involved in this.

495
00:28:34,560 --> 00:28:38,400
Speaker 4: Right at this particular jail in Alabama that we're talking about,

496
00:28:38,600 --> 00:28:41,000
Speaker 4: the entire staff was in on it. This is the

497
00:28:41,120 --> 00:28:45,360
Speaker 4: culture of this jail. Where else does this culture exist?

498
00:28:45,560 --> 00:28:48,640
Speaker 4: How many other jails does this culture exist? Like, you

499
00:28:48,640 --> 00:28:50,680
Speaker 4: guys know how I feel about this. We live in

500
00:28:50,720 --> 00:28:53,400
Speaker 4: a civilized society. And if we say that we're going

501
00:28:53,440 --> 00:28:56,040
Speaker 4: to put you in a cell and you know, take

502
00:28:56,040 --> 00:28:57,400
Speaker 4: care of you, we need to take care of you.

503
00:28:57,480 --> 00:28:58,200
Speaker 4: That's just my opinion.

504
00:28:58,920 --> 00:29:01,480
Speaker 2: And by the way, I have always kind of gone

505
00:29:01,520 --> 00:29:03,480
Speaker 2: of you know, this is behind the scenes body, and

506
00:29:03,520 --> 00:29:06,120
Speaker 2: I talk about this regularly where I'm like, well, yeah,

507
00:29:06,160 --> 00:29:09,320
Speaker 2: I don't know if my immediate family was murdered by

508
00:29:09,360 --> 00:29:12,760
Speaker 2: somebody and they and again like I am a pacifist,

509
00:29:13,080 --> 00:29:15,880
Speaker 2: I am like make love that war kind of cat.

510
00:29:16,560 --> 00:29:20,240
Speaker 2: But if that were to happen in my life, god forbid,

511
00:29:20,760 --> 00:29:23,800
Speaker 2: I don't know. My vote might be different. If somebody

512
00:29:23,800 --> 00:29:27,280
Speaker 2: confess to harming my child or my loved one. You know,

513
00:29:27,400 --> 00:29:30,720
Speaker 2: who knows. So I really do see all sides of this,

514
00:29:31,280 --> 00:29:34,040
Speaker 2: But the truth of the matter is, that's not the decision.

515
00:29:34,040 --> 00:29:37,040
Speaker 2: The decision is we live in a civilized society and

516
00:29:37,040 --> 00:29:41,200
Speaker 2: this is how we're supposed to handle things appropriately. And frankly,

517
00:29:41,320 --> 00:29:43,920
Speaker 2: I really have learned that through you body. It's really

518
00:29:43,960 --> 00:29:47,480
Speaker 2: easy to say like, oh, you know and let them

519
00:29:47,800 --> 00:29:50,240
Speaker 2: you know, let them die behind bars and you know,

520
00:29:50,320 --> 00:29:53,200
Speaker 2: let them be executed, until you really go a deeper

521
00:29:53,880 --> 00:29:56,479
Speaker 2: level through that, and you're like, well that doesn't totally

522
00:29:56,560 --> 00:30:01,240
Speaker 2: make sense either. What's the solve, I guess is the

523
00:30:01,320 --> 00:30:02,200
Speaker 2: larger question.

524
00:30:02,760 --> 00:30:04,440
Speaker 4: I don't know what to solve a business. But we

525
00:30:04,520 --> 00:30:08,800
Speaker 4: do know though from the reports here, that the entire

526
00:30:08,880 --> 00:30:11,840
Speaker 4: jail was basically in on this, and when people brought

527
00:30:11,880 --> 00:30:13,840
Speaker 4: it to people's attentions, like hey, we need to take

528
00:30:13,840 --> 00:30:15,400
Speaker 4: this out of the hospital, they were shot down.

529
00:30:15,920 --> 00:30:17,120
Speaker 7: I got to tell you, you know, one of the

530
00:30:17,120 --> 00:30:19,480
Speaker 7: disturbing things is if you've got a group of people,

531
00:30:19,560 --> 00:30:21,880
Speaker 7: Let's say you got top of twenty five people, Okay,

532
00:30:22,000 --> 00:30:23,760
Speaker 7: some of you are going to be appt in the

533
00:30:23,840 --> 00:30:27,160
Speaker 7: soul hit a home run. Here, you got twenty five

534
00:30:27,200 --> 00:30:29,680
Speaker 7: of you that can't attend to a person. I will,

535
00:30:30,840 --> 00:30:33,440
Speaker 7: what spiritual state are you in? I have no idea.

536
00:30:33,800 --> 00:30:36,040
Speaker 2: First of all, before we go any further, Joseph, we

537
00:30:36,080 --> 00:30:39,200
Speaker 2: have to think of like a jingle or some sort

538
00:30:39,240 --> 00:30:41,800
Speaker 2: of I don't know what is this. What is the

539
00:30:41,840 --> 00:30:47,200
Speaker 2: sound of a smoke machine? You know, something like when

540
00:30:47,240 --> 00:30:50,360
Speaker 2: you come on, it's like we know it and like

541
00:30:50,480 --> 00:30:55,000
Speaker 2: it's the King of Forensics. Because Crime Lab you get

542
00:30:55,000 --> 00:30:56,800
Speaker 2: the rights to that. Can we please?

543
00:30:57,200 --> 00:30:57,520
Speaker 4: Yes?

544
00:30:57,840 --> 00:31:01,080
Speaker 2: Can we please? When we were logging on earlier, they

545
00:31:01,080 --> 00:31:02,920
Speaker 2: were like, who's playing music? And I was like, and

546
00:31:02,920 --> 00:31:04,960
Speaker 2: they're like, it's Stephanie. I'm like, I'm telling you, I'm

547
00:31:04,960 --> 00:31:07,920
Speaker 2: not playing music. Like it's meat loaf, it's Stephanie. Turns

548
00:31:07,920 --> 00:31:10,280
Speaker 2: out it was Joseph. It was not me. I'm like,

549
00:31:10,440 --> 00:31:14,240
Speaker 2: I think the meat loaf alone eliminated me. Although we

550
00:31:14,280 --> 00:31:15,360
Speaker 2: don't know it was meatff.

551
00:31:15,400 --> 00:31:20,040
Speaker 4: It sounded like it sounded like I can do anything from.

552
00:31:26,560 --> 00:31:34,720
Speaker 2: You were listening to Paradise at the dashboard light. Okay, fine,

553
00:31:34,760 --> 00:31:37,440
Speaker 2: So like I think when we're concocting some sort of

554
00:31:37,520 --> 00:31:41,720
Speaker 2: theme for you, it should have those undertones the grateful Dead.

555
00:31:41,840 --> 00:31:45,720
Speaker 2: There you go. So we're entering Crime Lad. Cue the

556
00:31:45,840 --> 00:31:49,600
Speaker 2: music and Joseph. You know, we talk a lot about bruising,

557
00:31:49,640 --> 00:31:51,600
Speaker 2: and obviously bruises are a really big tell when it

558
00:31:51,600 --> 00:31:55,560
Speaker 2: comes to forensics. They tell a story, right, there's timeline involved,

559
00:31:55,680 --> 00:31:59,080
Speaker 2: there's how close to the victim and the assailant maybe

560
00:31:59,120 --> 00:32:03,320
Speaker 2: were cetera, et cetera, et cetera. And sometimes words and

561
00:32:03,440 --> 00:32:07,160
Speaker 2: lingo gets thrown around very casually. And you know, Joseph,

562
00:32:07,240 --> 00:32:08,760
Speaker 2: we have the benefit of working with him on the

563
00:32:08,880 --> 00:32:11,760
Speaker 2: daily so he can correct us along the way. But

564
00:32:11,840 --> 00:32:13,640
Speaker 2: we thought this would be a great time to pull

565
00:32:13,640 --> 00:32:15,960
Speaker 2: out our pencils and pens and have a proper crime

566
00:32:16,080 --> 00:32:20,520
Speaker 2: lab to understand the basics of bruising and what that

567
00:32:20,640 --> 00:32:22,680
Speaker 2: means in forensics, because a lot of the cases that

568
00:32:22,680 --> 00:32:25,640
Speaker 2: we're covering right now, I mean, obviously Ellen Greenberg, we

569
00:32:25,680 --> 00:32:28,680
Speaker 2: talk about this so much. What's the other one top

570
00:32:28,720 --> 00:32:31,960
Speaker 2: of head that's like so brew Oh well, even David

571
00:32:31,960 --> 00:32:36,959
Speaker 2: the pop star where you know Epstein even yeah, when

572
00:32:36,960 --> 00:32:40,120
Speaker 2: are we going to find justice for Celeste Revis? So anyway,

573
00:32:40,200 --> 00:32:44,160
Speaker 2: I digress, but bruising is a big deal and nobody

574
00:32:44,160 --> 00:32:47,200
Speaker 2: better to unpack it than Joseph himself.

575
00:32:47,600 --> 00:32:51,840
Speaker 7: Well thanks for having me, guys. Yeah, So with bruising

576
00:32:52,400 --> 00:32:54,200
Speaker 7: and we hear that term, you hear it, you know

577
00:32:54,400 --> 00:32:57,120
Speaker 7: kind of you get a grocery store and somebody will say, hey,

578
00:32:57,200 --> 00:32:59,680
Speaker 7: that piece of fruit is bruise, right, so they don't

579
00:32:59,680 --> 00:33:04,400
Speaker 7: say contoosed. Are these hematoma? But all three of those

580
00:33:04,480 --> 00:33:07,440
Speaker 7: terms essentially mean the same thing I used to work with.

581
00:33:07,480 --> 00:33:11,160
Speaker 7: It's really old forensic pathologist. He's real folksy had been

582
00:33:11,160 --> 00:33:13,760
Speaker 7: a general practition before he ever went into forensics, and

583
00:33:13,800 --> 00:33:16,560
Speaker 7: he used to refer to them as hematomatoes. So it's

584
00:33:16,640 --> 00:33:19,000
Speaker 7: kind of a dad joke thing. And the more, yes,

585
00:33:19,080 --> 00:33:24,760
Speaker 7: we do have humor, uh so for big Yeah, you

586
00:33:24,840 --> 00:33:28,560
Speaker 7: got to keep it light man. So but you know,

587
00:33:28,600 --> 00:33:30,920
Speaker 7: to harken back to doctor Parker, God rest his soul,

588
00:33:32,720 --> 00:33:35,960
Speaker 7: you know he knew and he taught me how to

589
00:33:36,320 --> 00:33:40,600
Speaker 7: essentially grade uh, contusions if you will. So if you

590
00:33:40,640 --> 00:33:42,760
Speaker 7: think about kind of we have to think about how

591
00:33:42,800 --> 00:33:48,640
Speaker 7: one occurs. Contusions occur as a result of some type

592
00:33:48,640 --> 00:33:53,360
Speaker 7: of impact. Now, either the person their body can be

593
00:33:53,680 --> 00:33:56,640
Speaker 7: in motion. Okay, say if you're understrained in a car

594
00:33:56,680 --> 00:33:59,360
Speaker 7: and you fly forward and he strike to dash or

595
00:33:59,360 --> 00:34:02,840
Speaker 7: strike the back, see wherever it is. If you fall

596
00:34:02,880 --> 00:34:05,000
Speaker 7: down a hill, you know you'll get abrasions as well,

597
00:34:05,000 --> 00:34:06,920
Speaker 7: but you're going to get contusions, you know, kind of

598
00:34:06,960 --> 00:34:10,359
Speaker 7: bouncing off gravity pulling you downward. And then you can

599
00:34:10,400 --> 00:34:14,520
Speaker 7: have events where an object flies through the air and

600
00:34:14,600 --> 00:34:16,920
Speaker 7: it strikes your person. Now a lot of people have

601
00:34:17,000 --> 00:34:19,560
Speaker 7: experienced this. I've got this beautiful photograph that I use

602
00:34:20,360 --> 00:34:24,399
Speaker 7: in my medical legal death investigation class. And person's not dead.

603
00:34:24,440 --> 00:34:30,520
Speaker 7: But it's a college college softball pitcher. This young lady

604
00:34:30,560 --> 00:34:35,279
Speaker 7: got struck by a hotline, the most dangerous position on

605
00:34:35,280 --> 00:34:38,640
Speaker 7: the field. I would never pitch in softball. And she

606
00:34:38,760 --> 00:34:41,480
Speaker 7: gets stung on the thigh with this thing. And so

607
00:34:41,920 --> 00:34:44,480
Speaker 7: the image is they actually have the ball, and the

608
00:34:44,520 --> 00:34:47,279
Speaker 7: physician took a picture of the contusion adjacent to it.

609
00:34:47,440 --> 00:34:50,960
Speaker 7: You can even make out the laces you know, on

610
00:34:51,000 --> 00:34:53,960
Speaker 7: her skin. But the thing about it is the diameter

611
00:34:54,880 --> 00:34:58,960
Speaker 7: of the contusion is generally larger than the object. So

612
00:34:59,680 --> 00:35:01,440
Speaker 7: I'll get give you a good example if you want

613
00:35:01,440 --> 00:35:05,560
Speaker 7: to know how the skin reacts to impact. If you've

614
00:35:05,960 --> 00:35:09,000
Speaker 7: ever ever seen the old clip, and I urge anybody

615
00:35:09,000 --> 00:35:11,880
Speaker 7: you go see it on YouTube of the guy like

616
00:35:11,960 --> 00:35:14,960
Speaker 7: on the Jersey boardwalk back in the thirties and he

617
00:35:15,040 --> 00:35:16,960
Speaker 7: catches the cannon ball. Have you gouty seen this?

618
00:35:17,280 --> 00:35:17,400
Speaker 2: Oh?

619
00:35:17,480 --> 00:35:21,000
Speaker 7: Yes, slow motion he's got the big elastic band. Go

620
00:35:21,080 --> 00:35:23,880
Speaker 7: watch that it's in super low slow mode and the

621
00:35:23,960 --> 00:35:27,839
Speaker 7: cannonball you can see it exit the muzzle it strikes him. Now,

622
00:35:27,880 --> 00:35:32,200
Speaker 7: pay very close attention when the ball actually strikes his

623
00:35:32,400 --> 00:35:35,799
Speaker 7: chest or strikes his abdomen, nice chest, his abdomen, you

624
00:35:35,840 --> 00:35:40,239
Speaker 7: can see his his stomach and the tissue around it

625
00:35:40,400 --> 00:35:45,040
Speaker 7: enveloped the ball for a second and then it snaps back.

626
00:35:45,320 --> 00:35:49,640
Speaker 7: Skin's got a lot of elasticity, so as you can imagine,

627
00:35:49,680 --> 00:35:52,319
Speaker 7: you've got more of a surface area that will be

628
00:35:52,440 --> 00:35:56,040
Speaker 7: contoosed and it won't necessarily marry up with the object. Okay,

629
00:35:56,080 --> 00:35:58,880
Speaker 7: So and it depends on where where you where you

630
00:35:58,920 --> 00:36:01,319
Speaker 7: are can choosed. You know, the scalp. You think about

631
00:36:01,360 --> 00:36:02,440
Speaker 7: your skull, it's very firm.

632
00:36:02,840 --> 00:36:04,839
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's not a lot of bounce back with that.

633
00:36:05,080 --> 00:36:08,680
Speaker 7: Right your abdomen and your thighs. You know that's got

634
00:36:08,800 --> 00:36:16,160
Speaker 7: you know you've got so that you know, the tissue

635
00:36:16,239 --> 00:36:18,200
Speaker 7: kind of envelops it at that point in time. You

636
00:36:18,239 --> 00:36:21,279
Speaker 7: can also and that's where lacerations eventually come through them

637
00:36:21,640 --> 00:36:25,400
Speaker 7: because the friction as the impact, the skin will rip. Now,

638
00:36:26,280 --> 00:36:32,840
Speaker 7: one of the major ways we use contusions to grade

639
00:36:32,880 --> 00:36:35,920
Speaker 7: things or to try to understand time. Remember we talked

640
00:36:35,920 --> 00:36:40,680
Speaker 7: about post mortemnival, right, and so we try to and

641
00:36:40,719 --> 00:36:44,320
Speaker 7: we do this even with the living, particularly child abuse investigators.

642
00:36:44,840 --> 00:36:47,520
Speaker 7: If a child has multiple bruises all over their body,

643
00:36:49,560 --> 00:36:54,240
Speaker 7: some of those bruises will be in various stages of healing, okay.

644
00:36:54,800 --> 00:36:59,319
Speaker 7: And so the trick is if you're interviewing somebody and

645
00:36:59,360 --> 00:37:01,840
Speaker 7: they say, well, kid fell down the staircase, Well, how

646
00:37:01,880 --> 00:37:04,360
Speaker 7: many damn times did he fall down the staircase? Because

647
00:37:04,400 --> 00:37:08,440
Speaker 7: you've got multiple bruises or contusions in various stages. And

648
00:37:08,520 --> 00:37:11,839
Speaker 7: here's the word you need to remember, resolve. So when

649
00:37:12,200 --> 00:37:15,120
Speaker 7: that child or or victim, if we've got a homicide

650
00:37:15,200 --> 00:37:20,600
Speaker 7: is impacted by something, the little capillary beds underneath the skin, okay,

651
00:37:21,080 --> 00:37:24,000
Speaker 7: we'll actually rupture at that point in time and it forms,

652
00:37:24,120 --> 00:37:27,399
Speaker 7: it forms this kind of hemorrhage into this what's called

653
00:37:27,480 --> 00:37:30,120
Speaker 7: interstitial tissue, okay, and it kind of rests right there,

654
00:37:30,120 --> 00:37:33,120
Speaker 7: and you can get a really deep bruise that goes

655
00:37:33,160 --> 00:37:36,440
Speaker 7: down into the muscle, say like on the thigh, and

656
00:37:36,640 --> 00:37:42,759
Speaker 7: you'll get a concurrent hematoma there as well. So when

657
00:37:42,760 --> 00:37:45,120
Speaker 7: we grade it, if you think about it within the

658
00:37:45,120 --> 00:37:48,600
Speaker 7: first few hours when you have that strike, okay, it's

659
00:37:48,640 --> 00:37:52,320
Speaker 7: going to be kind of red. It'll be irritated looking.

660
00:37:52,719 --> 00:37:57,720
Speaker 7: But then within the next few hours, that red area

661
00:37:58,239 --> 00:38:03,560
Speaker 7: will then take on what or more commonly used to

662
00:38:03,680 --> 00:38:07,600
Speaker 7: and that's blue to black. Okay. Now that's you're going

663
00:38:07,680 --> 00:38:10,200
Speaker 7: to be, you know, like probably about two to three

664
00:38:10,239 --> 00:38:14,040
Speaker 7: hours after that. Now that bruise in that configuration will

665
00:38:14,080 --> 00:38:17,800
Speaker 7: remain that way for maybe about two to three days.

666
00:38:18,840 --> 00:38:21,040
Speaker 7: We get beyond that and we go to that kind

667
00:38:21,080 --> 00:38:23,879
Speaker 7: of disgusting green color that all of us have seen

668
00:38:24,080 --> 00:38:28,840
Speaker 7: struck and that's going to stay with you for maybe

669
00:38:28,960 --> 00:38:32,440
Speaker 7: just shy of a week. The next shade, okay, is

670
00:38:32,480 --> 00:38:36,239
Speaker 7: going to be that really disgusting yellow. Okay. So when

671
00:38:36,280 --> 00:38:39,600
Speaker 7: you get into that yellow range, you can be you

672
00:38:39,640 --> 00:38:41,040
Speaker 7: can look at the scene and a lot of it

673
00:38:41,040 --> 00:38:44,120
Speaker 7: depends on the person's physiology. It can go from one

674
00:38:44,200 --> 00:38:46,040
Speaker 7: to three weeks at that point in time, and then

675
00:38:46,080 --> 00:38:51,040
Speaker 7: you have resolved. So if you've got multiple layers or

676
00:38:51,120 --> 00:38:54,640
Speaker 7: multiple insults to the body, you can you know, you'll

677
00:38:54,640 --> 00:38:56,839
Speaker 7: see it demonstrated all over. If you have like a

678
00:38:56,840 --> 00:39:01,320
Speaker 7: domestic abuse case and finally the victim is finally killed,

679
00:39:02,160 --> 00:39:05,080
Speaker 7: you'll see you know, bruises all over the totality. Probably

680
00:39:05,160 --> 00:39:08,560
Speaker 7: the worst one I ever saw was a lady that

681
00:39:08,760 --> 00:39:13,000
Speaker 7: was that was killed by her boyfriend with a broken

682
00:39:13,080 --> 00:39:15,840
Speaker 7: dryer belt, and he had been beaten her for probably

683
00:39:15,880 --> 00:39:19,279
Speaker 7: about two or three years, and I counted close to

684
00:39:19,320 --> 00:39:22,520
Speaker 7: one hundred and sixty six linear contusions on her body

685
00:39:22,520 --> 00:39:25,759
Speaker 7: in various stages of a resolve. Oh my gosh, Yeah,

686
00:39:25,840 --> 00:39:28,279
Speaker 7: it told a horrible story, really good.

687
00:39:28,600 --> 00:39:31,000
Speaker 4: Can I ask a question about bruising a lot of

688
00:39:31,040 --> 00:39:33,600
Speaker 4: the times in true crime we're talking about bruises found

689
00:39:33,600 --> 00:39:37,400
Speaker 4: on a body of a victim that's been is now deceased. Yeah,

690
00:39:37,440 --> 00:39:40,319
Speaker 4: and so your body when you when you pass, you're

691
00:39:40,360 --> 00:39:43,520
Speaker 4: no longer healing, right like you know, your your your

692
00:39:43,600 --> 00:39:47,319
Speaker 4: the bruises that you may have are basically going to

693
00:39:47,520 --> 00:39:49,640
Speaker 4: are they going to stay?

694
00:39:49,840 --> 00:39:52,719
Speaker 7: The scene for asking that, Okay, now you live a

695
00:39:52,800 --> 00:39:56,319
Speaker 7: thousand years, Thank you for asking that. Yeah, yes, that's a.

696
00:39:56,200 --> 00:40:00,160
Speaker 2: Gold star in the Do I get teachers, Yes, you

697
00:40:00,239 --> 00:40:01,680
Speaker 2: are for sure teacher's past.

698
00:40:01,920 --> 00:40:04,440
Speaker 7: Okay. The thing about it is with that, with that,

699
00:40:04,760 --> 00:40:09,439
Speaker 7: you know, essentially metabolic activity is completely ceased. So even

700
00:40:09,440 --> 00:40:11,600
Speaker 7: those capitalary bits they don't have the ability to heal.

701
00:40:11,800 --> 00:40:15,640
Speaker 7: And also you do not have at a cellular level,

702
00:40:15,760 --> 00:40:18,319
Speaker 7: you don't have cellular respiration. You don't have this kind

703
00:40:18,320 --> 00:40:21,480
Speaker 7: of circulation that is going on through healing where your

704
00:40:21,520 --> 00:40:24,759
Speaker 7: body can diffuse that even further. So at that moment,

705
00:40:26,000 --> 00:40:30,480
Speaker 7: I've actually don ad stations on people that had multiple contusions.

706
00:40:30,719 --> 00:40:34,840
Speaker 7: You can still appreciate the degree to which they You know,

707
00:40:35,080 --> 00:40:37,000
Speaker 7: this is you.

708
00:40:37,000 --> 00:40:40,040
Speaker 2: Sound a little modulated, Yeah, hould that thought? Well, just

709
00:40:40,080 --> 00:40:44,040
Speaker 2: we had to do a mid segment reset. Anyway. By

710
00:40:44,040 --> 00:40:46,319
Speaker 2: the way, you're listening to True Crime tonight, join us

711
00:40:46,360 --> 00:40:49,200
Speaker 2: eight eight eight three one crime. We're here with Joseph

712
00:40:49,239 --> 00:40:54,040
Speaker 2: Scott Morgan on Scientific Sunday, Deep inside the crime Lab,

713
00:40:55,040 --> 00:41:00,800
Speaker 2: talking about bruising and better understanding how to tell if

714
00:41:01,440 --> 00:41:04,160
Speaker 2: you know bruising can happen, Well, we know that it

715
00:41:04,239 --> 00:41:09,319
Speaker 2: can after death because the body stops metabolizing at that point.

716
00:41:09,480 --> 00:41:11,920
Speaker 7: Yeah right, yeah, you're not going to have the result

717
00:41:12,560 --> 00:41:16,239
Speaker 7: resolve of the of the contusion. And so you know

718
00:41:16,320 --> 00:41:20,560
Speaker 7: once that person and you know, for us in forensics,

719
00:41:20,840 --> 00:41:23,319
Speaker 7: that's a real benefit. I mean that is a true.

720
00:41:22,880 --> 00:41:24,879
Speaker 4: Yes, it's a snapshot in time.

721
00:41:24,920 --> 00:41:29,400
Speaker 7: Right, yeah, and it was. That's the beauty of it.

722
00:41:29,880 --> 00:41:31,520
Speaker 4: Now, let me let me ask you a question. Say

723
00:41:31,719 --> 00:41:35,560
Speaker 4: say that I somebody attacks me and they're punching me

724
00:41:36,160 --> 00:41:38,040
Speaker 4: in my chest and my stomach or whatever, and then

725
00:41:38,160 --> 00:41:42,799
Speaker 4: I passed like they stab me. The bruce hasn't been

726
00:41:43,080 --> 00:41:46,879
Speaker 4: God forbid, but the bruce hasn't performed yet. Right, Are

727
00:41:46,920 --> 00:41:50,640
Speaker 4: you able to tell that I was punched even though

728
00:41:50,640 --> 00:41:52,720
Speaker 4: the bruise hasn't had time to form.

729
00:41:53,120 --> 00:41:56,040
Speaker 7: Well, A lot of it depends on resolve the amount

730
00:41:56,040 --> 00:42:00,320
Speaker 7: of force that was utilized, because you can have underlying damage,

731
00:42:00,360 --> 00:42:06,080
Speaker 7: little lacerations and underlying organs. But here's the thing with

732
00:42:06,239 --> 00:42:08,839
Speaker 7: that said, you're also and this is something we've never

733
00:42:08,840 --> 00:42:10,560
Speaker 7: talked about, I don't think on the show, is called

734
00:42:10,640 --> 00:42:13,880
Speaker 7: perry mortem state where you're in that kind of floating

735
00:42:13,960 --> 00:42:17,359
Speaker 7: area between life and death. You've got anti mortem before death,

736
00:42:17,440 --> 00:42:20,120
Speaker 7: post mortem after death, and then there's that pery mortem

737
00:42:20,200 --> 00:42:27,040
Speaker 7: phase and you can still get reaction cellular reaction okay, response,

738
00:42:27,280 --> 00:42:30,520
Speaker 7: trauma response from the cells, and you'll see evidence of it.

739
00:42:30,520 --> 00:42:34,960
Speaker 7: It just won't have quite the length of tom to develop, okay,

740
00:42:35,480 --> 00:42:37,239
Speaker 7: once death obviously sets in.

741
00:42:38,160 --> 00:42:39,800
Speaker 2: And when it comes to say, you brought up the

742
00:42:39,840 --> 00:42:45,200
Speaker 2: example earlier with somebody who is maybe experiencing physical abuse

743
00:42:45,360 --> 00:42:48,439
Speaker 2: or domestic violence, which you know we see a lot

744
00:42:48,520 --> 00:42:50,600
Speaker 2: in many of the cases that we work on, and

745
00:42:50,880 --> 00:42:54,360
Speaker 2: I'm sure many people listening had their own personal experience

746
00:42:54,400 --> 00:42:57,560
Speaker 2: with this as well. That's a real specific thing. A

747
00:42:57,560 --> 00:43:00,279
Speaker 2: person can only fall down air quotes a ster case

748
00:43:00,320 --> 00:43:03,759
Speaker 2: so many times, right, And you know, if you're the

749
00:43:03,840 --> 00:43:07,560
Speaker 2: victim of abuse, you know Tier one is covering that up, right.

750
00:43:07,640 --> 00:43:09,719
Speaker 2: We If you're a woman, you can put makeup on

751
00:43:09,880 --> 00:43:13,960
Speaker 2: or you wear certain clothing to cover any repetitive bruising.

752
00:43:14,719 --> 00:43:20,000
Speaker 2: Are you able to tell forensicsly, forensically, very quickly if

753
00:43:20,040 --> 00:43:23,400
Speaker 2: a person is covering if somebody has been hit in

754
00:43:23,440 --> 00:43:25,520
Speaker 2: the face more than once, and you can tell it's

755
00:43:25,520 --> 00:43:29,920
Speaker 2: a black eye by impact versus a fall. Is that

756
00:43:30,040 --> 00:43:34,160
Speaker 2: something that behind the scenes forensics experts like yourself have

757
00:43:34,280 --> 00:43:37,719
Speaker 2: a certain eye for or is it just the narrative

758
00:43:38,880 --> 00:43:40,160
Speaker 2: being told from.

759
00:43:40,000 --> 00:43:43,560
Speaker 7: The fostential data is very important? You know what's their history,

760
00:43:43,600 --> 00:43:46,239
Speaker 7: the domestic history. But there are certain cues you can

761
00:43:46,239 --> 00:43:49,120
Speaker 7: pick up on with trauma response in the body, if

762
00:43:49,120 --> 00:43:53,000
Speaker 7: they've been in a healing stage, for instance, and you can,

763
00:43:53,200 --> 00:43:55,680
Speaker 7: like when you actually do the autopsy. I won't go

764
00:43:55,719 --> 00:43:57,440
Speaker 7: into a lot of graphics here, but when you go

765
00:43:58,080 --> 00:44:02,200
Speaker 7: and do the autops you can see previously damaged tissue

766
00:44:02,239 --> 00:44:04,440
Speaker 7: in there that's in the progress of healing. You can

767
00:44:04,480 --> 00:44:06,919
Speaker 7: actually there's sometimes you can actually find an old scar

768
00:44:07,040 --> 00:44:11,239
Speaker 7: tissue that's beneath the skin. And I've actually seen that

769
00:44:11,360 --> 00:44:15,680
Speaker 7: happen as well. And here's an interesting little sidebar here.

770
00:44:17,200 --> 00:44:21,640
Speaker 7: People that are adept at abusing people and they know

771
00:44:21,719 --> 00:44:23,640
Speaker 7: what they do because a lot of these people will

772
00:44:23,680 --> 00:44:27,319
Speaker 7: abuse multiple people. They never go for the face, the head,

773
00:44:27,520 --> 00:44:29,319
Speaker 7: they never go for the arms, They go for the

774
00:44:29,320 --> 00:44:31,560
Speaker 7: abdomen in the back because they know the or the

775
00:44:31,600 --> 00:44:34,200
Speaker 7: thighs because they know the person's going to be closed

776
00:44:34,960 --> 00:44:38,319
Speaker 7: and so points to them for that. And the other

777
00:44:38,360 --> 00:44:40,640
Speaker 7: thing that we look for in abusers is also and

778
00:44:40,680 --> 00:44:43,000
Speaker 7: I know you guys have heard the forest doctor shopping

779
00:44:43,640 --> 00:44:46,560
Speaker 7: where they'll go to like some dock in a box

780
00:44:46,680 --> 00:44:49,760
Speaker 7: because yeah, my kid's arm is hanging and he won't

781
00:44:49,760 --> 00:44:52,319
Speaker 7: move it. Oh gee, come here, Jimmy, let's take a

782
00:44:52,320 --> 00:44:54,720
Speaker 7: look at it. Well, kid's got a fractured collar bone.

783
00:44:55,120 --> 00:44:56,600
Speaker 7: Well he didn't go to the other dock in a

784
00:44:56,640 --> 00:44:59,359
Speaker 7: box he had been to last month, you know where

785
00:44:59,360 --> 00:45:04,279
Speaker 7: the kids headache. Yeah, because they'll move around because you know,

786
00:45:04,480 --> 00:45:08,320
Speaker 7: you don't want to give away your your mouth fees

787
00:45:08,360 --> 00:45:10,839
Speaker 7: and at this point in time, you're evil as it was.

788
00:45:10,840 --> 00:45:15,200
Speaker 2: Right And oftentimes somebody who's being victimized is trying to

789
00:45:15,280 --> 00:45:18,400
Speaker 2: run away, so you know the back, somebody's grabbing on

790
00:45:18,480 --> 00:45:20,239
Speaker 2: them to stay or throw them down.

791
00:45:20,480 --> 00:45:22,439
Speaker 4: That seven years that becomes a real tell.

792
00:45:23,200 --> 00:45:27,000
Speaker 3: Seven times before is the average before most people believe

793
00:45:27,000 --> 00:45:28,080
Speaker 3: a domestic violence.

794
00:45:28,320 --> 00:45:28,959
Speaker 2: That's so sad.

795
00:45:29,040 --> 00:45:31,960
Speaker 4: And these people that are doing these abuses know exactly

796
00:45:32,000 --> 00:45:33,719
Speaker 4: what to do to hide those things. So that's a

797
00:45:34,160 --> 00:45:35,120
Speaker 4: good thing to point out there.

798
00:45:35,239 --> 00:45:38,000
Speaker 2: Joseph, thank you, and we thank you for all of

799
00:45:38,040 --> 00:45:38,840
Speaker 2: that information.

800
00:45:39,000 --> 00:45:41,760
Speaker 7: As always everybody, I hope it helps somebody.

801
00:45:41,800 --> 00:45:46,040
Speaker 3: I really absolutely, and listen, stick around this Scientific Sunday

802
00:45:46,040 --> 00:45:49,040
Speaker 3: because coming up we have the latest on the brutal

803
00:45:49,120 --> 00:45:52,680
Speaker 3: Vegas decapitation case and we'd love to hear from you.

804
00:45:52,760 --> 00:46:05,839
Speaker 2: AED eight three one Crime. Welcome back to true Crime

805
00:46:05,880 --> 00:46:09,920
Speaker 2: tonight on iHeartRadio. We're talking true crime all the time. Listen.

806
00:46:09,960 --> 00:46:12,360
Speaker 2: If you've missed the first hour of the show, please

807
00:46:12,400 --> 00:46:15,080
Speaker 2: do nuts it for a second. You can catch us

808
00:46:15,120 --> 00:46:18,080
Speaker 2: right after. Also as a podcast, I'm Stephanie here with

809
00:46:18,160 --> 00:46:21,800
Speaker 2: Body and Courtney and the Gentleman in the studio, Taha,

810
00:46:21,840 --> 00:46:25,840
Speaker 2: Sam and Adam and of course Joseph Scott Morgan, host

811
00:46:25,840 --> 00:46:28,680
Speaker 2: of the hit podcast Body Bags, back with us for

812
00:46:28,800 --> 00:46:33,760
Speaker 2: Scientific Sunday breaking down all kinds of forensics. By the way, Joseph,

813
00:46:33,800 --> 00:46:36,719
Speaker 2: thank you for breaking down bruising in general, because it

814
00:46:36,760 --> 00:46:39,400
Speaker 2: is something that is so important for every case that

815
00:46:39,440 --> 00:46:44,040
Speaker 2: we cover, certainly from a forensics standpoint. And also just

816
00:46:44,080 --> 00:46:47,000
Speaker 2: to cap off to what we spoke about before the break,

817
00:46:47,400 --> 00:46:50,600
Speaker 2: if anybody out there is seeking help, please do raise

818
00:46:50,640 --> 00:46:55,080
Speaker 2: your hands. We will leave an eight hundred number or

819
00:46:55,080 --> 00:46:56,759
Speaker 2: where to call. By the end of the show. We

820
00:46:56,840 --> 00:47:01,000
Speaker 2: are searching real time for it now because bruising should

821
00:47:01,000 --> 00:47:06,240
Speaker 2: not happen in a healthy relationship period the end, speaking

822
00:47:06,320 --> 00:47:09,160
Speaker 2: of so body, you've been covering this sc story in

823
00:47:09,239 --> 00:47:14,399
Speaker 2: Las Vegas, very tragic former porn star has been found

824
00:47:14,440 --> 00:47:19,680
Speaker 2: guilty for beheading her ex and this is fresh off

825
00:47:19,719 --> 00:47:24,120
Speaker 2: the press, is and seems incredibly appropriate to discuss some

826
00:47:24,160 --> 00:47:27,239
Speaker 2: other forensics with this, and Joseph, so why don't you

827
00:47:27,239 --> 00:47:28,040
Speaker 2: set it up for us?

828
00:47:28,320 --> 00:47:31,400
Speaker 4: Yeah, so I'll set the table, as Courtney would say. So,

829
00:47:31,440 --> 00:47:36,680
Speaker 4: the jury has convicted Nevada's Devin Michaels of murdering and

830
00:47:36,719 --> 00:47:41,279
Speaker 4: decapitating her ex husband Jonathan in August of twenty twenty three.

831
00:47:41,880 --> 00:47:45,600
Speaker 4: So Devin is she's a former adult film actress. She

832
00:47:45,760 --> 00:47:49,239
Speaker 4: killed her ex husband. They were divorced at his Henderson home,

833
00:47:49,280 --> 00:47:51,160
Speaker 4: which is like a suburb of Vegas. It's just on

834
00:47:51,200 --> 00:47:55,719
Speaker 4: the street. A miid disputes over custody and living arrangements

835
00:47:55,719 --> 00:47:59,360
Speaker 4: for their kids. The case drew national attention due to

836
00:47:59,400 --> 00:48:02,520
Speaker 4: the brutal nature the crime, the fact that neither the

837
00:48:02,600 --> 00:48:06,120
Speaker 4: missing murder weapon or the victim's head have yet they've

838
00:48:06,120 --> 00:48:11,320
Speaker 4: not been recovered yet, and you know the complex family dynamics,

839
00:48:11,360 --> 00:48:16,960
Speaker 4: including Devin. The lady who killed her husband married her

840
00:48:17,280 --> 00:48:20,960
Speaker 4: husband's son, her ex husband's son. What is this some

841
00:48:21,000 --> 00:48:23,040
Speaker 4: sort of convenience situation?

842
00:48:23,440 --> 00:48:26,279
Speaker 2: Like, wait, she she was married to a man who

843
00:48:26,320 --> 00:48:26,879
Speaker 2: had a son.

844
00:48:27,160 --> 00:48:29,319
Speaker 4: Let me her a timeline, Yeah, let me go. I'll

845
00:48:29,360 --> 00:48:32,640
Speaker 4: go through the timeline. It's very very simple. So in

846
00:48:32,680 --> 00:48:38,000
Speaker 4: twenty twelve, Devin Michaels, she's the convicted woman. She married

847
00:48:38,080 --> 00:48:41,560
Speaker 4: Jonathan Willette. He's the victim. Okay, they have two daughters together,

848
00:48:41,719 --> 00:48:45,040
Speaker 4: all right. In twenty eighteen they got divorced. So they

849
00:48:45,040 --> 00:48:47,680
Speaker 4: were married for six years. Okay, in twenty eighteen they

850
00:48:47,680 --> 00:48:52,000
Speaker 4: get a divorce, and she starts a relationship with her

851
00:48:52,200 --> 00:48:55,919
Speaker 4: ex husband's son, not her son, it's a previous son

852
00:48:56,120 --> 00:48:57,319
Speaker 4: from another relationship.

853
00:48:57,920 --> 00:49:00,320
Speaker 2: And Jonathan came into the relationship.

854
00:48:59,840 --> 00:49:04,319
Speaker 4: With right right, and the marriage has been described as

855
00:49:04,360 --> 00:49:08,200
Speaker 4: a marriage of convenience for insurance purposes. So somebody must

856
00:49:08,200 --> 00:49:12,040
Speaker 4: have needed insurance. Listen, I've considered it points in my life.

857
00:49:12,120 --> 00:49:15,360
Speaker 4: You know, somebody must have needed insurance or something. And

858
00:49:15,520 --> 00:49:20,000
Speaker 4: so they get married. They get married. Well, in twenty

859
00:49:20,080 --> 00:49:25,600
Speaker 4: twenty three, Jonathan the victim, he decides that he wants

860
00:49:25,680 --> 00:49:28,799
Speaker 4: to co parent with Devin, his ex right, so he

861
00:49:28,880 --> 00:49:31,680
Speaker 4: moves into her house to co parent their two daughters

862
00:49:31,680 --> 00:49:36,759
Speaker 4: that they've got. Sometime between August sixth and August seventh

863
00:49:36,800 --> 00:49:42,160
Speaker 4: of that year, she kills him, and Devin strikes Jonathan

864
00:49:42,200 --> 00:49:45,960
Speaker 4: on the head with a candlestick like object while he's

865
00:49:46,040 --> 00:49:49,920
Speaker 4: lying on his stomach. According to her confession, now again,

866
00:49:50,000 --> 00:49:53,520
Speaker 4: we don't have his head, and you know, so we

867
00:49:53,600 --> 00:49:56,640
Speaker 4: don't know if this is just true or not. But Joseph,

868
00:49:57,520 --> 00:50:01,080
Speaker 4: if we did have his head, would there be some

869
00:50:01,200 --> 00:50:06,239
Speaker 4: kind of bruising to his head with the in some

870
00:50:06,280 --> 00:50:08,400
Speaker 4: sort of shape of a candlelight object?

871
00:50:08,960 --> 00:50:11,200
Speaker 2: Wait, there is his head, his head is just missing.

872
00:50:11,600 --> 00:50:14,920
Speaker 7: Yeah, oh yeah, and you know there's u I had

873
00:50:14,920 --> 00:50:16,879
Speaker 7: a case a few years ago down in Florida where

874
00:50:16,920 --> 00:50:18,680
Speaker 7: a guy was a retired judge and he and his

875
00:50:18,719 --> 00:50:22,360
Speaker 7: son were doing coke together and the sun dismembered the

876
00:50:22,480 --> 00:50:25,960
Speaker 7: judge's body and they've never found his head. So yeah,

877
00:50:26,000 --> 00:50:31,319
Speaker 7: it does happen. Uh, And yeah, yeah it did, didn't it.

878
00:50:32,200 --> 00:50:37,799
Speaker 7: So it's yeah, don't you don't you wish that we

879
00:50:37,800 --> 00:50:40,640
Speaker 7: could all still be shocked? Uh, you know when I'm

880
00:50:40,640 --> 00:50:49,080
Speaker 7: still shocked. Yeah, yeah, it's We'll do an entire sun

881
00:50:49,840 --> 00:50:55,560
Speaker 7: Sunday on dismemberment sometime. But in this particular case body, Yeah,

882
00:50:55,560 --> 00:50:57,880
Speaker 7: I think that there still would be, you know, a

883
00:50:57,920 --> 00:51:01,239
Speaker 7: contusion perhaps, like we talked about if if what she's

884
00:51:01,280 --> 00:51:06,120
Speaker 7: saying is accurate. Also, here's another thing from an evidentiary standpoint,

885
00:51:06,280 --> 00:51:07,920
Speaker 7: dig this. I don't know if you guys agree with

886
00:51:07,920 --> 00:51:10,040
Speaker 7: this or not. We you know, this is one of

887
00:51:10,080 --> 00:51:14,040
Speaker 7: those cases of what the physician calls non specific homicidal

888
00:51:14,080 --> 00:51:16,239
Speaker 7: trauma and the call in the manner of death is

889
00:51:16,280 --> 00:51:19,319
Speaker 7: ruled as a homicide. Well, they know the answer rests

890
00:51:19,360 --> 00:51:21,080
Speaker 7: in the head, but they can't give you a specific

891
00:51:22,040 --> 00:51:25,319
Speaker 7: cause of death. So did the head contain evidence that

892
00:51:25,360 --> 00:51:28,880
Speaker 7: could have been linkage back to her. Is there a gunshot? One?

893
00:51:29,360 --> 00:51:32,440
Speaker 7: I don't know, you know, you know, we just don't know.

894
00:51:32,560 --> 00:51:35,880
Speaker 7: And so you know, now she's the head. Yeah, if

895
00:51:35,920 --> 00:51:39,160
Speaker 7: you've got a projectile and the head, it's gone, man,

896
00:51:39,320 --> 00:51:42,799
Speaker 7: and you don't know, you know, And listen, body, you

897
00:51:42,880 --> 00:51:45,719
Speaker 7: know that area you know where this occurred, there's a

898
00:51:45,760 --> 00:51:48,120
Speaker 7: whole lot of nothing out there, you know, so you

899
00:51:48,239 --> 00:51:50,680
Speaker 7: never know, you never know where where it was placed

900
00:51:50,760 --> 00:51:51,759
Speaker 7: or you know what she did.

901
00:51:51,719 --> 00:51:55,120
Speaker 4: With right, Yeah, we have a huge late two that's

902
00:51:55,200 --> 00:51:57,279
Speaker 4: kind of infamous. And I don't know if you remember this.

903
00:51:57,320 --> 00:52:01,520
Speaker 4: When those barrels started, oh yeah, supposed need you know,

904
00:52:01,560 --> 00:52:04,160
Speaker 4: it was rumored that the mafia would throw all their

905
00:52:05,040 --> 00:52:09,440
Speaker 4: you know, evidence basically in like need right. So yeah,

906
00:52:09,520 --> 00:52:16,360
Speaker 4: it's it's entirely possible. But the evidence indicates that the victim, Jonathan,

907
00:52:16,640 --> 00:52:20,040
Speaker 4: was decapitated using a knife and saw in the exact

908
00:52:20,160 --> 00:52:25,640
Speaker 4: weapon has never been recovered police never, we've never recovered

909
00:52:25,960 --> 00:52:29,560
Speaker 4: the victim's head, Jonathan's head, and that really complicated forensic

910
00:52:29,600 --> 00:52:33,759
Speaker 4: reconstruction because they couldn't they couldn't verify, you know, the confession,

911
00:52:33,920 --> 00:52:37,200
Speaker 4: just that these you know, because people do false confess, right, like, oh,

912
00:52:37,320 --> 00:52:39,280
Speaker 4: and the cops aren't just going to be like okay,

913
00:52:39,440 --> 00:52:42,520
Speaker 4: okase closed. They you know, they really like to tie

914
00:52:42,560 --> 00:52:44,279
Speaker 4: the ribbon, right they do.

915
00:52:44,640 --> 00:52:47,000
Speaker 7: But I got to tell you, we do have some

916
00:52:47,160 --> 00:52:54,760
Speaker 7: very specific forensic information. If if I am understanding this correctly,

917
00:52:54,800 --> 00:52:57,560
Speaker 7: and I've seen an image of the mattress and also

918
00:52:57,719 --> 00:53:02,200
Speaker 7: the carpet that's there, Yeah, that blood deposition that they

919
00:53:02,239 --> 00:53:06,719
Speaker 7: have there looks like kind of a slow, poor drainage

920
00:53:06,920 --> 00:53:10,279
Speaker 7: that wound up. There's not a lot of dynaicism to it.

921
00:53:11,239 --> 00:53:13,279
Speaker 7: If you were asking me if I walked in and

922
00:53:13,320 --> 00:53:16,719
Speaker 7: somebody said, hey, Morgan, can you tell me if this

923
00:53:16,840 --> 00:53:19,400
Speaker 7: is even possible? Does this give off the appearance that

924
00:53:19,440 --> 00:53:22,400
Speaker 7: somebody could have been decapitated here? Well, other than the

925
00:53:22,400 --> 00:53:25,520
Speaker 7: fact I've got a body that's appsent ahead if I

926
00:53:25,520 --> 00:53:28,600
Speaker 7: didn't have the body, Yeah, because it's supersaturated, a term

927
00:53:28,640 --> 00:53:32,120
Speaker 7: we use in forensics forensics that the pathologists use. They'll

928
00:53:32,120 --> 00:53:34,880
Speaker 7: say that there is so much blood that it's incompatible

929
00:53:34,920 --> 00:53:38,280
Speaker 7: with life. But there's no way to measure that volume

930
00:53:38,280 --> 00:53:41,360
Speaker 7: of blood because there's people think that we can measure

931
00:53:41,400 --> 00:53:45,160
Speaker 7: blood at the scene, like the amount. But when you

932
00:53:45,200 --> 00:53:48,160
Speaker 7: get into carpeting and you have that sub you know,

933
00:53:48,239 --> 00:53:52,640
Speaker 7: like the padding that's beneath it, it supersaturates that the

934
00:53:52,680 --> 00:53:55,880
Speaker 7: mattress is supersaturated. You can only say this is a

935
00:53:55,960 --> 00:53:59,560
Speaker 7: copious amount of blood and it probably is incompatible with life.

936
00:54:00,080 --> 00:54:01,640
Speaker 7: Ode that this happened right there?

937
00:54:02,000 --> 00:54:05,239
Speaker 2: Mm hm and same. She hasn't been compelled to give

938
00:54:05,280 --> 00:54:10,000
Speaker 2: more information as to where this head is, you know again,

939
00:54:10,120 --> 00:54:12,520
Speaker 2: like when someone's like, you know, been found guilty. I

940
00:54:12,520 --> 00:54:15,120
Speaker 2: feel like that should be pieces of the puzzle that

941
00:54:15,400 --> 00:54:16,680
Speaker 2: must be answered.

942
00:54:18,120 --> 00:54:23,560
Speaker 7: Yeah, no, I think she initially and correct me, I'm wrong.

943
00:54:23,800 --> 00:54:27,800
Speaker 7: She initially confessed to this guilty and she retracted.

944
00:54:27,880 --> 00:54:34,560
Speaker 2: She tried when she did counsel right, yeah, yi guilty.

945
00:54:34,719 --> 00:54:36,839
Speaker 7: And there's no way you can you know, because it's

946
00:54:36,960 --> 00:54:39,680
Speaker 7: in an allocution you know, like b okay, where you

947
00:54:39,680 --> 00:54:42,680
Speaker 7: can force them to elocute if you want this sentence.

948
00:54:43,320 --> 00:54:47,520
Speaker 7: You know, she's maintaining innocence that sort of thing, not guilty,

949
00:54:48,000 --> 00:54:49,680
Speaker 7: you know, So what are you going to do? I mean,

950
00:54:49,880 --> 00:54:52,000
Speaker 7: but you know, sometimes people will get on the inside,

951
00:54:52,000 --> 00:54:53,799
Speaker 7: they've been on the inside so long, and say, hey,

952
00:54:54,880 --> 00:54:57,680
Speaker 7: what can I get for the head? Think about how

953
00:54:57,719 --> 00:55:00,520
Speaker 7: horrible that is, you know, so the head becomes leverage

954
00:55:00,600 --> 00:55:03,000
Speaker 7: if they've been convicted. Let's say, I'll give you the

955
00:55:03,040 --> 00:55:05,719
Speaker 7: position of it if you'll give me a privilege. I

956
00:55:05,760 --> 00:55:06,919
Speaker 7: don't know if she'll ever get out.

957
00:55:06,800 --> 00:55:09,560
Speaker 4: Of jail, I don't know. But the jury did review

958
00:55:09,600 --> 00:55:13,640
Speaker 4: all the forensics evidence. They listened to witness testimony and

959
00:55:13,680 --> 00:55:17,359
Speaker 4: crime scene photos for over two weeks and they deliberated for.

960
00:55:17,400 --> 00:55:20,680
Speaker 2: Just two hours. Yeah, it was pretty dark. Was pretty quick.

961
00:55:20,800 --> 00:55:23,680
Speaker 4: Yeah, So the verdict was Devin was found guilty of

962
00:55:23,760 --> 00:55:27,160
Speaker 4: murder with the use of a deadly weapon. Sentencing is

963
00:55:27,160 --> 00:55:31,680
Speaker 4: scheduled for January eighth, with fifty one years to life

964
00:55:31,719 --> 00:55:34,600
Speaker 4: in prison on the table. So we'll see what happens there.

965
00:55:35,200 --> 00:55:38,040
Speaker 2: Well, it seems well deserved. This is true crime tonight.

966
00:55:38,080 --> 00:55:41,239
Speaker 3: We are on iHeartRadio and we've been talking about the

967
00:55:41,239 --> 00:55:47,160
Speaker 3: conviction of Nevada's Devin Brian excuse me, Devin Michaels for

968
00:55:47,320 --> 00:55:50,160
Speaker 3: murdering and decapitating her husband. We'd love to hear your thoughts.

969
00:55:50,200 --> 00:55:52,800
Speaker 3: We're at eighty to eight three to one crime. And also,

970
00:55:52,840 --> 00:55:56,240
Speaker 3: if you have any scientific questions to ask a forensic expert,

971
00:55:56,360 --> 00:55:57,440
Speaker 3: Joseph Scott Morgan.

972
00:55:58,040 --> 00:56:01,040
Speaker 2: You also should call because he is here to answer it.

973
00:56:01,840 --> 00:56:03,680
Speaker 3: We only have a couple of minutes, but I wanted

974
00:56:03,719 --> 00:56:06,200
Speaker 3: to very quickly talk about another story. I think it's

975
00:56:06,239 --> 00:56:09,719
Speaker 3: going to relate back to bruising as well. So this

976
00:56:09,800 --> 00:56:14,200
Speaker 3: is a jury update. The jury in Lake Trusdale's trial

977
00:56:16,239 --> 00:56:18,480
Speaker 3: is in the process of deliberation and this is for

978
00:56:18,560 --> 00:56:22,600
Speaker 3: a June twenty twenty four quadruple homicide. So they are

979
00:56:22,640 --> 00:56:26,800
Speaker 3: now deliberating and they will resume on Monday. Back in

980
00:56:26,920 --> 00:56:32,040
Speaker 3: June of twenty twenty four, four people, Amanda Parker, Ramanda's cooper,

981
00:56:32,280 --> 00:56:36,160
Speaker 3: Keona Ryan, and Brent Brown. They were bludgeoned to death

982
00:56:36,200 --> 00:56:38,800
Speaker 3: with a metal pipe in a rural town in Iowa.

983
00:56:39,640 --> 00:56:43,280
Speaker 3: Three died at the scene, one died three days later. Now,

984
00:56:43,560 --> 00:56:47,080
Speaker 3: the suspect, Luke Truesdale, has been charged with four counts

985
00:56:47,120 --> 00:56:51,840
Speaker 3: of first degree murder and it's very confusing. Allegedly, he

986
00:56:51,960 --> 00:56:56,560
Speaker 3: told investigators that he the suspect quote wanted to be

987
00:56:56,880 --> 00:57:01,239
Speaker 3: in a movie. And this is according to multiple reports

988
00:57:01,320 --> 00:57:06,440
Speaker 3: covering his confession, and prosecutors also alleged that the accused

989
00:57:06,480 --> 00:57:08,560
Speaker 3: Luke fantasized about being in the center of his own

990
00:57:08,600 --> 00:57:09,760
Speaker 3: true crime story.

991
00:57:10,040 --> 00:57:11,880
Speaker 4: Oh my gosh.

992
00:57:11,960 --> 00:57:14,520
Speaker 2: Yes. And then last detail.

993
00:57:14,640 --> 00:57:18,240
Speaker 3: He said he had done meth amphetamine on the day

994
00:57:18,240 --> 00:57:22,040
Speaker 3: of the killings, so of course investigators say that could

995
00:57:22,080 --> 00:57:26,400
Speaker 3: have contributed. But murder with a pipe is not something

996
00:57:26,920 --> 00:57:29,400
Speaker 3: you hear about very often.

997
00:57:30,320 --> 00:57:37,440
Speaker 7: No violence, Yeah, it really is. I've had a couple. Uh,

998
00:57:37,760 --> 00:57:40,280
Speaker 7: it's not the standard bludgeoning weapons. You know. Most of

999
00:57:40,280 --> 00:57:44,240
Speaker 7: the time we come across hatchets, and particularly hammers, hammers

1000
00:57:44,240 --> 00:57:49,400
Speaker 7: of real, real popular and bats like baseball bats. Oh yeah,

1001
00:57:49,400 --> 00:57:51,960
Speaker 7: so you know, and that does happen. But most of

1002
00:57:51,960 --> 00:57:55,640
Speaker 7: the time we refer to them as particularly in bludgeonings.

1003
00:57:55,640 --> 00:57:58,200
Speaker 7: You excited about stabling too, but I refer to them

1004
00:57:58,200 --> 00:58:00,920
Speaker 7: as weapons of convenience. You know, something you can grab

1005
00:58:01,160 --> 00:58:05,160
Speaker 7: real quick. But you know, you've got a pipe. This

1006
00:58:05,200 --> 00:58:07,760
Speaker 7: is kind of a garage area where these people are found.

1007
00:58:07,840 --> 00:58:11,840
Speaker 7: I got a real interesting insight into this the state

1008
00:58:11,880 --> 00:58:15,560
Speaker 7: troopers first rolled up to the scene. Guys, they're not

1009
00:58:15,680 --> 00:58:19,480
Speaker 7: thinking pipe. The first thing they're thinking is carbon monoxide poisoning.

1010
00:58:19,560 --> 00:58:23,960
Speaker 7: Because there's a vehicle inside of this dwelling. One person

1011
00:58:24,080 --> 00:58:26,680
Speaker 7: lives in the dwelling inside of a I think inside

1012
00:58:26,680 --> 00:58:29,240
Speaker 7: of a tent in the dwelling. If I'm not mistaken,

1013
00:58:29,600 --> 00:58:33,240
Speaker 7: it's kind of a convoluted you know, kind of menagerie

1014
00:58:33,280 --> 00:58:38,919
Speaker 7: of these these characters that inhabit the spot. But state

1015
00:58:38,920 --> 00:58:40,880
Speaker 7: troopers rolled up. They thought it was a carbon monoxide

1016
00:58:40,920 --> 00:58:47,640
Speaker 7: poison case until state troopers approached the bodies and there's

1017
00:58:47,760 --> 00:58:51,680
Speaker 7: these gigantic pools of blood and they actually found one

1018
00:58:51,680 --> 00:58:55,120
Speaker 7: of the victims still clinging to life, and they were

1019
00:58:55,200 --> 00:58:58,200
Speaker 7: medflighted out of there, and of course they they you know,

1020
00:58:58,240 --> 00:59:03,360
Speaker 7: they succumb later. And you know, I think one of

1021
00:59:03,400 --> 00:59:07,240
Speaker 7: the troopers was questioned and said, when did you determine?

1022
00:59:08,600 --> 00:59:12,880
Speaker 7: When did you determine that this was not carbon monoxide?

1023
00:59:12,920 --> 00:59:17,120
Speaker 7: He said, carbon monoxide does not cause your head to

1024
00:59:17,120 --> 00:59:20,080
Speaker 7: come apart, And because as he approached, he began to

1025
00:59:20,080 --> 00:59:24,400
Speaker 7: see these huge, gaping lacerations, underlying fractures and this sort

1026
00:59:24,440 --> 00:59:27,760
Speaker 7: of thing. Through this attack and with contusions, I'm so

1027
00:59:27,840 --> 00:59:31,360
Speaker 7: glad we cover this tonight. When you see someone struck

1028
00:59:31,400 --> 00:59:36,880
Speaker 7: by pipe, if you think about the shape of a pipe, cylindrical, right,

1029
00:59:37,000 --> 00:59:40,000
Speaker 7: And here's an interesting thing. If the pipe is threaded

1030
00:59:40,160 --> 00:59:43,400
Speaker 7: on one end, like a piece of galvanized pipe, you

1031
00:59:43,440 --> 00:59:48,200
Speaker 7: can actually see those those markings translate onto the body.

1032
00:59:50,280 --> 00:59:53,120
Speaker 7: What does that mean? It's okay, just say we've got

1033
00:59:53,120 --> 00:59:55,840
Speaker 7: Plato in our hand, and we take something like a

1034
00:59:55,960 --> 00:59:58,760
Speaker 7: threaded screw and we place it down. And this is

1035
00:59:58,760 --> 01:00:01,840
Speaker 7: what tool mark examiners kind of what they do. You

1036
01:00:01,960 --> 01:00:04,360
Speaker 7: compare the threading, you know, like on a screw front.

1037
01:00:05,640 --> 01:00:07,480
Speaker 7: You pull it out and you look at the play though,

1038
01:00:07,520 --> 01:00:09,440
Speaker 7: and you can actually see the detail of the screw.

1039
01:00:09,840 --> 01:00:13,240
Speaker 7: So it's part of this for us in the morgue

1040
01:00:13,320 --> 01:00:16,520
Speaker 7: and at the scene, we're looking, we're scanning for a weapon.

1041
01:00:17,080 --> 01:00:20,200
Speaker 7: What could generate this, you know, this kind of insult

1042
01:00:20,280 --> 01:00:24,160
Speaker 7: because you know, like you guys said, this is a

1043
01:00:24,360 --> 01:00:29,120
Speaker 7: very very violent, personal case, very personal, very personal.

1044
01:00:29,240 --> 01:00:32,760
Speaker 2: And very rare. Decapitation is a very rare thing, all

1045
01:00:32,800 --> 01:00:37,360
Speaker 2: things considered, right, Joseph we were talking about earlier.

1046
01:00:37,960 --> 01:00:42,120
Speaker 7: Yeah, yeah, decapitation is in fact a very rare thing. However,

1047
01:00:42,240 --> 01:00:46,400
Speaker 7: I have my own theories. It seems like dismemberments are

1048
01:00:46,400 --> 01:00:50,080
Speaker 7: increasing in number, just all the cases I'm tracking right now,

1049
01:00:50,120 --> 01:00:54,520
Speaker 7: I've never seen so many. And mutilation, mutilation of remains,

1050
01:00:55,160 --> 01:01:00,160
Speaker 7: that's that's on the uptick and that's just my insight.

1051
01:01:00,240 --> 01:01:02,960
Speaker 7: But I see there's concurrence there. I think, I think,

1052
01:01:02,960 --> 01:01:03,400
Speaker 7: I don't know.

1053
01:01:03,720 --> 01:01:07,000
Speaker 3: It seems that there's been so many cases, and not

1054
01:01:07,240 --> 01:01:08,320
Speaker 3: just on Sundays with.

1055
01:01:08,240 --> 01:01:11,080
Speaker 2: You, Joseph, but where we said, what is happening?

1056
01:01:11,600 --> 01:01:15,960
Speaker 3: People are using swords to decapitate mother in laws and there.

1057
01:01:16,200 --> 01:01:18,240
Speaker 3: I mean, it really does seem like we're in this

1058
01:01:19,040 --> 01:01:20,680
Speaker 3: very strange moment in time.

1059
01:01:21,880 --> 01:01:22,160
Speaker 7: Person.

1060
01:01:22,960 --> 01:01:27,320
Speaker 3: Yeah, but listen, if you are anyone with an earshot,

1061
01:01:27,400 --> 01:01:29,880
Speaker 3: is in any need of any help, we just wanted

1062
01:01:29,920 --> 01:01:33,640
Speaker 3: to give you the National Domestic Violence Hotline is one

1063
01:01:33,720 --> 01:01:36,720
Speaker 3: eight hundred seven nine to nine safe.

1064
01:01:36,880 --> 01:01:41,240
Speaker 2: That's safe. So just so you know that, keep it here.

1065
01:01:41,520 --> 01:01:44,480
Speaker 3: We are going to unpack the branch Davidians out of Waco.

1066
01:01:44,840 --> 01:01:48,680
Speaker 3: That more true crime tonight.

1067
01:01:57,640 --> 01:02:00,680
Speaker 2: Welcome back to true crime tonight on iHeartRadio. We're talking

1068
01:02:00,720 --> 01:02:03,720
Speaker 2: true crime all the time. I'm Stephanie Leidecker here with

1069
01:02:03,800 --> 01:02:11,240
Speaker 2: Courtney Armstrong, who is dancing. He is Bookie. Go ahead, bow, yeah,

1070
01:02:11,400 --> 01:02:14,480
Speaker 2: nothing needs to There's no better way to shake off

1071
01:02:14,480 --> 01:02:19,080
Speaker 2: some decapitation checks, right than a little boogie dance. And

1072
01:02:19,120 --> 01:02:21,800
Speaker 2: of course body move in and Joseph Scott Morgan here

1073
01:02:21,840 --> 01:02:25,080
Speaker 2: with us on Scientific Sunday. Also the host of the

1074
01:02:25,160 --> 01:02:28,840
Speaker 2: hit podcast body Bags. If you haven't listened to it,

1075
01:02:28,960 --> 01:02:32,760
Speaker 2: please do three new episodes a week and he's been

1076
01:02:32,760 --> 01:02:37,280
Speaker 2: breaking down a lot of things about dismemberment, et cetera.

1077
01:02:38,040 --> 01:02:40,360
Speaker 2: In fact, we have a talkback right now here we go.

1078
01:02:40,960 --> 01:02:44,480
Speaker 6: Hi, ladies love the show, So for true crime and

1079
01:02:44,560 --> 01:02:47,080
Speaker 6: chill for something a little less heavy. I wanted to

1080
01:02:47,120 --> 01:02:53,280
Speaker 6: recommend rom KHN on Prime only three episodes, so easy, compelling.

1081
01:02:53,800 --> 01:03:00,960
Speaker 6: Thank Tim, for Swindler and for Joseph SBK. I perpetually

1082
01:03:01,040 --> 01:03:04,800
Speaker 6: wonder if he was aiming to create a murder house

1083
01:03:04,840 --> 01:03:08,760
Speaker 6: scenario so that the professors that he admired would use

1084
01:03:08,800 --> 01:03:11,439
Speaker 6: it for their students. Okay, thanks, keep up the good work.

1085
01:03:13,000 --> 01:03:15,400
Speaker 7: Yeah. Was that? Was that? Because we use it at

1086
01:03:15,480 --> 01:03:18,560
Speaker 7: Jack State? I mean, I've got a I've got an

1087
01:03:18,560 --> 01:03:23,200
Speaker 7: eight room Crumson house, So yeah, I mean, and it's

1088
01:03:23,200 --> 01:03:26,840
Speaker 7: something that he would have been in the program. At

1089
01:03:26,880 --> 01:03:30,280
Speaker 7: the sales, they've utilized this and there were actually articles

1090
01:03:30,320 --> 01:03:34,120
Speaker 7: written about this program relatives that work that were out

1091
01:03:35,400 --> 01:03:37,600
Speaker 7: and it's a real you know, it's a real tool,

1092
01:03:37,680 --> 01:03:40,480
Speaker 7: So he would have had had that. I think one

1093
01:03:40,520 --> 01:03:44,640
Speaker 7: of my questions would be was he taking the knowledge,

1094
01:03:44,920 --> 01:03:48,840
Speaker 7: perhaps as twisted as it was, and that he had

1095
01:03:48,880 --> 01:03:51,440
Speaker 7: gleaned from there and then trying to apply it there

1096
01:03:51,600 --> 01:03:54,880
Speaker 7: and understanding it, but please I beg you to keep

1097
01:03:54,920 --> 01:03:57,880
Speaker 7: in mind you a forensic scientist. He wasn't trained to

1098
01:03:57,920 --> 01:04:01,520
Speaker 7: be a forensic scientist. And he's in a criminology.

1099
01:04:00,880 --> 01:04:03,640
Speaker 4: Program, right, and totally different.

1100
01:04:03,800 --> 01:04:09,400
Speaker 7: Completely different. Yeah, it's you know, it's completely different. Criminology

1101
01:04:09,480 --> 01:04:11,160
Speaker 7: is a subset of sociology.

1102
01:04:11,520 --> 01:04:11,840
Speaker 8: World.

1103
01:04:13,040 --> 01:04:19,160
Speaker 4: He was particularly interested in sexual burglary in his criminology program,

1104
01:04:19,240 --> 01:04:21,400
Speaker 4: so yeah, he was in a totally kind of different

1105
01:04:22,080 --> 01:04:24,479
Speaker 4: He did study cloud forensics and whatnot, and he had

1106
01:04:25,360 --> 01:04:28,720
Speaker 4: I would say, an expertise in that, but as far

1107
01:04:28,720 --> 01:04:32,000
Speaker 4: as like forensics forensics go, so he wasn't studying that yet.

1108
01:04:32,640 --> 01:04:35,400
Speaker 7: Yeah, so a little bit of knowledge, you know, sometimes

1109
01:04:35,480 --> 01:04:40,320
Speaker 7: can can really Eddie Murphy. One of my favorite quotes is,

1110
01:04:40,800 --> 01:04:42,320
Speaker 7: you know, give an inch to take a mile, give

1111
01:04:42,360 --> 01:04:44,840
Speaker 7: them a rope. They think they're a cowboy, right, and

1112
01:04:44,960 --> 01:04:47,360
Speaker 7: you know, and that really, you know, that really applause.

1113
01:04:47,480 --> 01:04:49,120
Speaker 7: You know when you think about it. You know, some

1114
01:04:49,160 --> 01:04:51,520
Speaker 7: people think they're an expert. Yeah, ain't.

1115
01:04:51,640 --> 01:04:54,880
Speaker 2: Okay, Right, there's a couple of things on that case

1116
01:04:54,880 --> 01:04:57,640
Speaker 2: that I'll never understand. The phone, like why would you

1117
01:04:57,680 --> 01:05:01,080
Speaker 2: ever bring your phone around? In general? That was you know,

1118
01:05:01,120 --> 01:05:04,320
Speaker 2: we interviewed a student who his student who said that

1119
01:05:04,440 --> 01:05:07,520
Speaker 2: was like the first thing they learned in that class. Yeah,

1120
01:05:07,560 --> 01:05:11,040
Speaker 2: that was his first like mistake, and thank god he

1121
01:05:11,120 --> 01:05:16,160
Speaker 2: made it. So I'm not suggesting otherwise. By the way,

1122
01:05:16,440 --> 01:05:22,120
Speaker 2: rom On the suggested true crime and chill, I ate

1123
01:05:22,160 --> 01:05:26,800
Speaker 2: it up. I ate it up, like, don't get me started.

1124
01:05:26,800 --> 01:05:28,800
Speaker 2: I ate it up. And it's a great suggestion because

1125
01:05:28,800 --> 01:05:31,840
Speaker 2: it's crime. It is a crime. It's by the way,

1126
01:05:31,880 --> 01:05:36,840
Speaker 2: crimes of the heart count and boy o boy oh boy.

1127
01:05:37,520 --> 01:05:40,240
Speaker 2: And you know, it sort of looks at just being

1128
01:05:40,440 --> 01:05:44,600
Speaker 2: bamboozled in the spirit of love and belonging and intimacy

1129
01:05:44,640 --> 01:05:47,840
Speaker 2: and connection. By the way, not so different to what

1130
01:05:48,040 --> 01:05:50,439
Speaker 2: you know, body you've been preparing for is tonight too

1131
01:05:51,120 --> 01:05:54,320
Speaker 2: talking about a cult? You know again, Tier one to

1132
01:05:54,400 --> 01:05:56,920
Speaker 2: getting involved in a cult is connection, Right, That's what

1133
01:05:57,040 --> 01:06:00,760
Speaker 2: everybody's craving until it gets weird, That's right.

1134
01:06:00,800 --> 01:06:03,240
Speaker 4: And when I was preparing for this tonight, you know,

1135
01:06:04,480 --> 01:06:06,120
Speaker 4: was proposed to me, Hey, let's talk about the branch

1136
01:06:06,160 --> 01:06:08,720
Speaker 4: Davidians and I have like a hyper interest in colts.

1137
01:06:09,240 --> 01:06:11,240
Speaker 4: I think they're really fascinating. So I was like, okay,

1138
01:06:11,600 --> 01:06:13,480
Speaker 4: so we have like all the details, like you know,

1139
01:06:13,560 --> 01:06:15,960
Speaker 4: laid out or whatever. Fine, but there's like a story

1140
01:06:16,000 --> 01:06:18,360
Speaker 4: within the story that I really wanted to tell to

1141
01:06:18,440 --> 01:06:21,040
Speaker 4: how salacious and it's interesting, and that this is the

1142
01:06:21,120 --> 01:06:22,680
Speaker 4: kind of the angle I wanted to take. So we're

1143
01:06:22,720 --> 01:06:25,120
Speaker 4: gonna go into totally different directions. That's okay, love it,

1144
01:06:25,680 --> 01:06:29,760
Speaker 4: so Vernon Howell. Vernon Howell is David Crush.

1145
01:06:29,840 --> 01:06:30,200
Speaker 2: Okay.

1146
01:06:30,240 --> 01:06:34,400
Speaker 4: But when Vernon Howell first arrived at Mount Carmel in

1147
01:06:34,440 --> 01:06:37,920
Speaker 4: the early eighties, he wasn't yet David Krush. He was

1148
01:06:38,000 --> 01:06:40,360
Speaker 4: Vernon Howell. He's a twenty one year old. He was

1149
01:06:40,360 --> 01:06:43,600
Speaker 4: a skinny kid, and he was drifting into a community

1150
01:06:43,600 --> 01:06:47,400
Speaker 4: of older believers, you know, elderly people, led by a

1151
01:06:47,440 --> 01:06:51,720
Speaker 4: woman who had been preaching this prophecy since before he

1152
01:06:51,840 --> 01:06:52,320
Speaker 4: was born.

1153
01:06:52,640 --> 01:06:53,000
Speaker 2: Okay.

1154
01:06:53,480 --> 01:06:57,280
Speaker 4: Her name was Lois Rodin, and she was the reigning

1155
01:06:57,400 --> 01:06:59,400
Speaker 4: matriarch of the Branch Davidians.

1156
01:06:59,480 --> 01:07:00,360
Speaker 2: Okay.

1157
01:07:00,400 --> 01:07:03,080
Speaker 4: And the Branch Davidians are like an offshoot from the

1158
01:07:03,160 --> 01:07:06,720
Speaker 4: Seventh Day Adventists. They have their own They were all

1159
01:07:06,800 --> 01:07:10,240
Speaker 4: bran Seventh Day Advatists, but they branched out and they

1160
01:07:10,320 --> 01:07:12,600
Speaker 4: formed their own thing, and they're called the Branch Davidians.

1161
01:07:12,880 --> 01:07:17,480
Speaker 4: So Lois, she's in her sixties, Okay. Vernon was barely

1162
01:07:17,520 --> 01:07:20,560
Speaker 4: twenty one, and what happened would set off a chain

1163
01:07:20,680 --> 01:07:24,720
Speaker 4: reaction that ultimately helped lead to one of the most

1164
01:07:24,880 --> 01:07:30,160
Speaker 4: infamous standoffs in American history. Lois had inherited leadership of

1165
01:07:30,160 --> 01:07:34,600
Speaker 4: the group after her husband Ben died. She taught unique theology,

1166
01:07:34,720 --> 01:07:38,520
Speaker 4: including the idea that the Holy Spirit was feminine. The

1167
01:07:38,600 --> 01:07:41,440
Speaker 4: doctrine made her somewhat of a visionary, right, like this

1168
01:07:41,480 --> 01:07:44,919
Speaker 4: is kind of you know, oh my goodness, this is different, right,

1169
01:07:46,000 --> 01:07:50,680
Speaker 4: even controversial inside her own movement. But when Vernon arrived again,

1170
01:07:50,800 --> 01:07:52,720
Speaker 4: that's David Krush when he was in his twenties. When

1171
01:07:52,800 --> 01:07:56,600
Speaker 4: Vernon arrived, Lois saw something in him, Okay, a spark,

1172
01:07:56,720 --> 01:07:59,240
Speaker 4: a charisma, whatever you want to call it. He had

1173
01:07:59,280 --> 01:08:02,600
Speaker 4: a fluency was scripture that seemed almost unnatural, and a

1174
01:08:02,640 --> 01:08:06,120
Speaker 4: lot of people that you know survived Waco said that

1175
01:08:06,240 --> 01:08:09,400
Speaker 4: David just had a way with scripture. Okay, So he

1176
01:08:09,560 --> 01:08:13,680
Speaker 4: was naturally talented in this, okay, But she saw something

1177
01:08:13,680 --> 01:08:17,840
Speaker 4: in him, and guess what, they started a sexual relationship.

1178
01:08:18,680 --> 01:08:23,960
Speaker 4: He's twenty, she's in her sixties, okay, and they both

1179
01:08:24,120 --> 01:08:27,799
Speaker 4: saw it as divinely ordered, like this is from God.

1180
01:08:27,840 --> 01:08:30,240
Speaker 4: We have to be in this relationship. But to Vernon

1181
01:08:30,280 --> 01:08:33,400
Speaker 4: it was destiny, all right. To him, it was destiny.

1182
01:08:33,439 --> 01:08:37,080
Speaker 4: He claimed God had chosen him to father a child

1183
01:08:37,160 --> 01:08:41,240
Speaker 4: with Lois, a child who would embody the feminine holy

1184
01:08:41,320 --> 01:08:45,040
Speaker 4: spirit that she preached about. And to Lois it seemed

1185
01:08:45,080 --> 01:08:49,240
Speaker 4: like confirmation of everything that she had been preaching. So

1186
01:08:49,280 --> 01:08:50,480
Speaker 4: they formed this relationship.

1187
01:08:50,520 --> 01:08:53,960
Speaker 2: Well, stand by, she's in it, did I hear you? Correctly?

1188
01:08:53,960 --> 01:08:56,759
Speaker 4: She's in her sixties, correct, and he's in his twenty's.

1189
01:08:57,200 --> 01:09:00,639
Speaker 3: He's not even twenty one year Okay, that if we're

1190
01:09:00,640 --> 01:09:02,280
Speaker 3: talking about conception though, that's right.

1191
01:09:02,280 --> 01:09:03,400
Speaker 2: I'm getting old right now.

1192
01:09:03,520 --> 01:09:06,840
Speaker 4: It's yeah, I know. But when you you know, are

1193
01:09:06,960 --> 01:09:10,280
Speaker 4: in this, you know spiritual psychosis that they're in, right,

1194
01:09:10,360 --> 01:09:13,479
Speaker 4: you know, it's divinely ordered, right, your body can do anything,

1195
01:09:13,720 --> 01:09:14,559
Speaker 4: it will overcome.

1196
01:09:14,680 --> 01:09:14,880
Speaker 2: Right.

1197
01:09:15,600 --> 01:09:20,320
Speaker 4: But there's a there's a problem. Standing just off stage

1198
01:09:20,439 --> 01:09:25,120
Speaker 4: of all this nonsense is George Roden. Now he's Lois's son,

1199
01:09:26,080 --> 01:09:31,200
Speaker 4: and he's her expected successor, right, he's the hair to

1200
01:09:31,840 --> 01:09:35,439
Speaker 4: the throne of this branch Davidians, and he saw Vernon

1201
01:09:35,520 --> 01:09:38,240
Speaker 4: as an opportunist, a threat, and an insult to the

1202
01:09:38,240 --> 01:09:41,439
Speaker 4: family line. The idea that this young man half is

1203
01:09:41,680 --> 01:09:45,080
Speaker 4: more than half his mother's age was now her chosen

1204
01:09:45,200 --> 01:09:48,320
Speaker 4: spiritual and physical partner was just more than he could tolerate.

1205
01:09:48,760 --> 01:09:51,160
Speaker 4: And it wasn't just jealousy. It was fight for the

1206
01:09:51,160 --> 01:09:55,439
Speaker 4: control of this religious empire. Okay, this is a massive

1207
01:09:55,479 --> 01:09:56,400
Speaker 4: empire they're building.

1208
01:09:56,680 --> 01:09:57,080
Speaker 2: Wow.

1209
01:09:57,439 --> 01:10:01,760
Speaker 4: As Lois grew older and weaker, Vernon influence only and testified.

1210
01:10:01,800 --> 01:10:04,120
Speaker 4: It's almost like he was a parasite, like sucking the

1211
01:10:04,160 --> 01:10:06,920
Speaker 4: life out of Lois, and the weaker she got, the

1212
01:10:07,000 --> 01:10:10,479
Speaker 4: stronger he got, right, like a parasite. I'm using that,

1213
01:10:10,520 --> 01:10:14,280
Speaker 4: but anyway, Okay, so he started preaching with more authority,

1214
01:10:14,400 --> 01:10:19,000
Speaker 4: and he positioned himself as the true interpreter of the prophecy.

1215
01:10:19,439 --> 01:10:22,759
Speaker 4: All right, And when Lois died, she died in nineteen

1216
01:10:22,800 --> 01:10:26,000
Speaker 4: eighty six, the question of who's going to rule erupted

1217
01:10:26,040 --> 01:10:30,559
Speaker 4: into open war, like open war where George took over

1218
01:10:30,920 --> 01:10:35,120
Speaker 4: naturally because he's the air. But Vernon he had gathered

1219
01:10:35,160 --> 01:10:39,400
Speaker 4: all these people that believed him, so he moved, you know,

1220
01:10:39,600 --> 01:10:42,000
Speaker 4: down down the road, down the road with all his

1221
01:10:42,080 --> 01:10:47,200
Speaker 4: little disciples. So now the branch Davidians has split into two. Okay, well,

1222
01:10:47,360 --> 01:10:51,360
Speaker 4: this is where it gets kind of wacky. So George

1223
01:10:51,360 --> 01:10:53,960
Speaker 4: guess what he does in order to send a message

1224
01:10:54,000 --> 01:10:57,160
Speaker 4: that he's the real prophet, He's the real you know

1225
01:10:57,520 --> 01:11:02,120
Speaker 4: one He digs up a body from one of his

1226
01:11:03,080 --> 01:11:07,200
Speaker 4: disciples that had passed away and basically hangs a sign

1227
01:11:07,360 --> 01:11:12,200
Speaker 4: on this body and says, if Vernon is the real prophet,

1228
01:11:12,439 --> 01:11:17,880
Speaker 4: he will bring this person back to life. Well, Vernon

1229
01:11:17,920 --> 01:11:20,439
Speaker 4: was not having that right. He's like, okay, he got

1230
01:11:20,439 --> 01:11:22,800
Speaker 4: all his guns and his disciples that were with him,

1231
01:11:23,200 --> 01:11:28,000
Speaker 4: and there was a literal gunfight at Mount Carmel over

1232
01:11:28,479 --> 01:11:29,639
Speaker 4: the the.

1233
01:11:31,720 --> 01:11:35,679
Speaker 2: Leadership. Sorry, I lost my I lost my I lost.

1234
01:11:35,880 --> 01:11:39,000
Speaker 3: This is unbelieved. I had no idea that all of this.

1235
01:11:39,120 --> 01:11:43,480
Speaker 3: I mean, it's honestly, it's it's like a weird.

1236
01:11:44,760 --> 01:11:47,120
Speaker 2: It is a good grief. Well, listen, this is true

1237
01:11:47,120 --> 01:11:47,719
Speaker 2: crime tonight.

1238
01:11:47,760 --> 01:11:50,080
Speaker 3: We are not a soap opera, but we are getting

1239
01:11:50,120 --> 01:11:52,200
Speaker 3: to the bottom of the Branch Davidians, and we are

1240
01:11:52,240 --> 01:11:55,519
Speaker 3: also talking true crime all the time. I'm Courtney with

1241
01:11:55,600 --> 01:11:58,839
Speaker 3: Stephanie and Body movin. And of course it's scientific Sunday,

1242
01:11:58,880 --> 01:12:01,280
Speaker 3: so we are here with Joseph of Scott Morgan. If

1243
01:12:01,320 --> 01:12:04,360
Speaker 3: you want to join our conversation about these Branch Davidians

1244
01:12:04,840 --> 01:12:06,720
Speaker 3: or have a friends of question, give us a call

1245
01:12:06,800 --> 01:12:11,639
Speaker 3: eighty eight to three one crime, Joseph, what's your what's

1246
01:12:11,680 --> 01:12:13,120
Speaker 3: your take or thoughts on the branch?

1247
01:12:13,200 --> 01:12:19,720
Speaker 7: Davidians Well, from a forensic standpoint, it was a it

1248
01:12:19,800 --> 01:12:23,080
Speaker 7: was a hellish nightmare. I knew, I knew a couple

1249
01:12:23,120 --> 01:12:27,160
Speaker 7: of the folks that that were out at that scene.

1250
01:12:27,520 --> 01:12:31,920
Speaker 7: Oh yeah, And I'll put it through this way that

1251
01:12:32,680 --> 01:12:35,639
Speaker 7: one of the nightmare scenarios that you have. First off,

1252
01:12:35,680 --> 01:12:38,760
Speaker 7: they were you know, leading up, you know, when you

1253
01:12:38,800 --> 01:12:41,280
Speaker 7: had the siege going on, there was a sphere that

1254
01:12:41,320 --> 01:12:46,800
Speaker 7: people were being killed in the wake of the initial

1255
01:12:46,960 --> 01:12:49,600
Speaker 7: raid and that people inside the building were going to

1256
01:12:49,640 --> 01:12:53,439
Speaker 7: be killed. And you know, over a period of time

1257
01:12:53,520 --> 01:12:57,400
Speaker 7: with the negotiation, they were releasing some people along the way.

1258
01:12:57,640 --> 01:12:59,640
Speaker 7: But you know, when it all came down and you

1259
01:12:59,680 --> 01:13:02,840
Speaker 7: saw that do you remember the armored vehicle again that

1260
01:13:03,200 --> 01:13:07,439
Speaker 7: went through the wall and the muzzle of the tank

1261
01:13:07,840 --> 01:13:11,559
Speaker 7: or the armored vehicle that muscle was not firing rounds.

1262
01:13:11,680 --> 01:13:15,240
Speaker 7: It was actually distributing that were pumping tear gas, you know,

1263
01:13:15,360 --> 01:13:18,720
Speaker 7: into the building. And there was some question initially some

1264
01:13:18,760 --> 01:13:23,360
Speaker 7: people thought a gas line had been clipped and that

1265
01:13:23,520 --> 01:13:26,000
Speaker 7: maybe a spark something that sparked off. I mean, you've

1266
01:13:26,000 --> 01:13:29,040
Speaker 7: got an armored vehicle going through a wall. Okay, So

1267
01:13:30,120 --> 01:13:32,680
Speaker 7: they never were really clear at first, but you know,

1268
01:13:32,720 --> 01:13:36,759
Speaker 7: they it came to find out that there were several

1269
01:13:37,320 --> 01:13:41,240
Speaker 7: evidences of accelerants being used inside of this inside of

1270
01:13:41,240 --> 01:13:46,400
Speaker 7: this place. And this place is not like incredibly well built,

1271
01:13:46,439 --> 01:13:49,120
Speaker 7: it's vast, it's really big, but the whole thing's a

1272
01:13:49,240 --> 01:13:52,680
Speaker 7: damn tinder box. You know. It's made out of like

1273
01:13:52,840 --> 01:13:58,439
Speaker 7: press board, plywood, the walls, you know, and it was

1274
01:13:58,520 --> 01:14:01,160
Speaker 7: just and so any kind of fire that would have

1275
01:14:01,200 --> 01:14:03,479
Speaker 7: initiated and seen and you can see evidence of this

1276
01:14:03,520 --> 01:14:05,880
Speaker 7: if you go back and you watch that footage that's

1277
01:14:05,920 --> 01:14:09,920
Speaker 7: pulled back I think it famously from ABC that were there,

1278
01:14:10,280 --> 01:14:12,559
Speaker 7: and you just see this. It's not billows of smoke,

1279
01:14:12,880 --> 01:14:16,160
Speaker 7: it's rolling flame that's coming out and just coughing out

1280
01:14:16,160 --> 01:14:21,560
Speaker 7: this black smoke. And so it creates a nightmare inside

1281
01:14:21,960 --> 01:14:25,719
Speaker 7: of this environment because you'll have bodies that are clustered together.

1282
01:14:26,280 --> 01:14:28,639
Speaker 7: And I've seen this in house fires before, where you'll

1283
01:14:28,640 --> 01:14:30,679
Speaker 7: have a group of people that will die in one location,

1284
01:14:31,439 --> 01:14:37,040
Speaker 7: so you'll get like commingling of burned remains and there's

1285
01:14:37,120 --> 01:14:40,680
Speaker 7: still there. There have been questions for years, are there

1286
01:14:40,760 --> 01:14:43,599
Speaker 7: still people that are unaccounted for out of all of

1287
01:14:43,600 --> 01:14:46,880
Speaker 7: this because everything was kind of you know, things carved

1288
01:14:46,920 --> 01:14:50,439
Speaker 7: in on top of on one another. Then if you

1289
01:14:50,920 --> 01:14:52,679
Speaker 7: one things you want to do is try to establish

1290
01:14:52,800 --> 01:14:55,599
Speaker 7: if people were executed prior to this or if they

1291
01:14:55,880 --> 01:14:58,960
Speaker 7: died as a result of smoke inholation. So anytime you

1292
01:14:59,000 --> 01:15:03,559
Speaker 7: have a building collapse like this, you'll get screws, bolts,

1293
01:15:03,680 --> 01:15:06,920
Speaker 7: you'll get nails, and some of these things will travel

1294
01:15:07,000 --> 01:15:10,000
Speaker 7: with the body. So you get the body X rayed

1295
01:15:10,520 --> 01:15:13,880
Speaker 7: and you'll see something that's radio opaque, and it's confusing.

1296
01:15:13,960 --> 01:15:16,880
Speaker 7: You don't know if it's an actual projectile or if

1297
01:15:16,880 --> 01:15:20,160
Speaker 7: it's a screw. I've seen score rings, I've seen springs

1298
01:15:20,200 --> 01:15:23,280
Speaker 7: that have wound up inside of bodies, all kinds of things.

1299
01:15:23,600 --> 01:15:25,920
Speaker 7: So it was a hellish nightmare you know, that was

1300
01:15:25,960 --> 01:15:27,679
Speaker 7: created inside of that environment.

1301
01:15:28,280 --> 01:15:31,200
Speaker 4: Yeah, a lot of people died, seventy six people including

1302
01:15:31,280 --> 01:15:34,920
Speaker 4: Koresh and twenty five children, twenty five Can you.

1303
01:15:34,920 --> 01:15:38,839
Speaker 2: Imagine just for the experts and the you know Joseph

1304
01:15:38,960 --> 01:15:45,080
Speaker 2: like yourself, who's law enforcement, and you know, death investigators

1305
01:15:45,120 --> 01:15:49,800
Speaker 2: in medical examiners who are arriving on this scene It's

1306
01:15:49,840 --> 01:15:51,639
Speaker 2: the kind of thing you don't come back from, right

1307
01:15:51,760 --> 01:15:55,280
Speaker 2: emotionally speaking. And you know, Joseph and I have talked

1308
01:15:55,320 --> 01:15:58,400
Speaker 2: about this offline. He's helped me so much too, Just like,

1309
01:15:58,800 --> 01:16:01,519
Speaker 2: what are the tools? What are the tool There are

1310
01:16:01,560 --> 01:16:04,240
Speaker 2: no tools that could prepare a human body, no matter

1311
01:16:04,280 --> 01:16:07,760
Speaker 2: how trained you are, to walk into a scene where

1312
01:16:07,800 --> 01:16:15,200
Speaker 2: seventy plus humans are dead, twenty plus children is it's unfathomable. Like,

1313
01:16:15,320 --> 01:16:18,160
Speaker 2: thank goodness we're talking about it because you know, again,

1314
01:16:18,200 --> 01:16:20,519
Speaker 2: I think that prevents this kind of thing from happening again.

1315
01:16:21,240 --> 01:16:23,680
Speaker 4: Yeah, this was. This lasted fifty one days, and I

1316
01:16:23,720 --> 01:16:26,519
Speaker 4: remember I was living in Orange County, California at the time,

1317
01:16:26,520 --> 01:16:30,040
Speaker 4: and I watched it on the news every day. Every

1318
01:16:30,120 --> 01:16:32,360
Speaker 4: day we all did, right, like we all watched it.

1319
01:16:34,439 --> 01:16:37,000
Speaker 4: It was It was horrific. Yeah, seventy six people and

1320
01:16:37,040 --> 01:16:40,479
Speaker 4: twenty five kids. I just there's so many.

1321
01:16:40,760 --> 01:16:42,120
Speaker 2: I ever really understood.

1322
01:16:42,439 --> 01:16:42,639
Speaker 6: Yeah.

1323
01:16:42,640 --> 01:16:44,920
Speaker 2: I think it was the first time I understood the

1324
01:16:44,920 --> 01:16:45,559
Speaker 2: word cult.

1325
01:16:46,000 --> 01:16:47,240
Speaker 4: Oh okay, And it.

1326
01:16:47,200 --> 01:16:51,160
Speaker 3: Seems like martyrdom was really a driving force to keep

1327
01:16:51,240 --> 01:16:53,959
Speaker 3: them from even you know, wanting to save themselves.

1328
01:16:54,040 --> 01:16:57,200
Speaker 9: They wanted to be they were driven by apocalyptic beliefs,

1329
01:16:57,280 --> 01:17:00,200
Speaker 9: they were day believed that what was happening to them

1330
01:17:00,520 --> 01:17:05,200
Speaker 9: was basically ordained and was the apocalypse right like, so

1331
01:17:05,439 --> 01:17:06,240
Speaker 9: they welcomed it.

1332
01:17:06,520 --> 01:17:06,760
Speaker 2: Well.

1333
01:17:07,160 --> 01:17:09,320
Speaker 3: Listen, I was a slightly different note, but we are

1334
01:17:09,439 --> 01:17:10,600
Speaker 3: all very informed.

1335
01:17:11,680 --> 01:17:16,960
Speaker 2: Can you do a little more dancing right the t Yeah,

1336
01:17:17,080 --> 01:17:17,960
Speaker 2: go ahead, Joseph.

1337
01:17:18,120 --> 01:17:21,639
Speaker 3: As always, we thank you, We're so grateful, we are smarter,

1338
01:17:21,920 --> 01:17:25,960
Speaker 3: we are more filled with scientific knowledge. Scientific Sunday and

1339
01:17:26,000 --> 01:17:29,080
Speaker 3: anyone who wants more Joseph, Let's be honest, that's everyone

1340
01:17:29,400 --> 01:17:34,840
Speaker 3: every podcast. Body Bags and stick around because after the

1341
01:17:34,880 --> 01:17:38,280
Speaker 3: break we have more to dig into True crime tonight.

1342
01:17:48,920 --> 01:17:52,000
Speaker 2: Welcome back to True Crime Tonight and iHeartRadio. We're talking

1343
01:17:52,000 --> 01:17:55,120
Speaker 2: true crime all the time. I'm Stephanie here with Courtney

1344
01:17:55,120 --> 01:17:59,679
Speaker 2: and Body and we already miss Joseph. Joseph Scogin. Boy

1345
01:17:59,800 --> 01:18:02,679
Speaker 2: is he's just not the best of the best. He's

1346
01:18:02,680 --> 01:18:06,000
Speaker 2: so nice. I have learned so much from working with him,

1347
01:18:06,120 --> 01:18:08,519
Speaker 2: I can't even tell you. And by the way, many

1348
01:18:08,600 --> 01:18:11,120
Speaker 2: of those things are how to be a great human.

1349
01:18:11,880 --> 01:18:13,599
Speaker 3: I was going to say, learned a lot of things,

1350
01:18:13,640 --> 01:18:18,080
Speaker 3: including just like good humor, good kindness, good people.

1351
01:18:18,160 --> 01:18:23,280
Speaker 2: He is good kindness, like yeah, his he approaches every

1352
01:18:23,400 --> 01:18:27,880
Speaker 2: case with such a clear kind mind, which you have

1353
01:18:27,960 --> 01:18:33,240
Speaker 2: to do. Is that Joseph calling hello, wish hello, I

1354
01:18:33,280 --> 01:18:39,639
Speaker 2: wish kindness, I'm kindness, police call thanks.

1355
01:18:44,680 --> 01:18:48,080
Speaker 10: But I do agree with is that wasn't him. But

1356
01:18:48,200 --> 01:18:51,080
Speaker 10: he is phenomenal and he's such a gentleman. And I

1357
01:18:51,720 --> 01:18:54,200
Speaker 10: was just going to add the Crime Labs is very

1358
01:18:54,240 --> 01:18:59,040
Speaker 10: popular with the audience. People have creating. Well, yeah, so it's.

1359
01:18:58,920 --> 01:19:01,760
Speaker 2: Good questions, humming everybody. And by the way, Boddy, you're

1360
01:19:01,800 --> 01:19:05,840
Speaker 2: breaking down the David koresh cult story. By the way,

1361
01:19:05,880 --> 01:19:08,680
Speaker 2: and I know this story very very well. And the

1362
01:19:08,760 --> 01:19:14,519
Speaker 2: story in the story, yeah, I'm leaning in in a

1363
01:19:14,520 --> 01:19:15,600
Speaker 2: way I can't describe.

1364
01:19:15,960 --> 01:19:19,840
Speaker 4: Listen, I call it the making of a Messiah. Oh,

1365
01:19:19,880 --> 01:19:23,760
Speaker 4: I like that, like that of Messiah. So where I

1366
01:19:23,840 --> 01:19:28,400
Speaker 4: left off you guys, was Lois had just died, her

1367
01:19:28,479 --> 01:19:33,679
Speaker 4: son George had taken power. He began publicly haunting Vernon

1368
01:19:33,760 --> 01:19:37,320
Speaker 4: at the time, right, David krush that was his real name, Vernon,

1369
01:19:37,640 --> 01:19:39,960
Speaker 4: mocking his claims of a divine authority. And then he

1370
01:19:40,040 --> 01:19:42,400
Speaker 4: dug up that body, right, he dug up a corpse,

1371
01:19:42,400 --> 01:19:44,720
Speaker 4: and it was the body of a woman, one of

1372
01:19:44,760 --> 01:19:47,280
Speaker 4: his disciples, that was buried at Mount Carmel and he

1373
01:19:47,360 --> 01:19:50,880
Speaker 4: placed the corpse in that you know area and put

1374
01:19:50,920 --> 01:19:53,760
Speaker 4: a sign around it. If Vernon Howell thinks he's the

1375
01:19:53,800 --> 01:19:56,640
Speaker 4: real prophet, let him raise her from the dead. And

1376
01:19:56,720 --> 01:19:59,959
Speaker 4: it wasn't a metaphor, it wasn't alligatory. This was George

1377
01:20:00,600 --> 01:20:05,000
Speaker 4: spiraling into delusion because he really thought he was the prophet. Well,

1378
01:20:06,000 --> 01:20:08,240
Speaker 4: Vernon's not going to take this slaying down. He gathered

1379
01:20:08,320 --> 01:20:12,960
Speaker 4: up his branch you know, that broke off and they

1380
01:20:14,120 --> 01:20:17,720
Speaker 4: marched on Mount Carmel and there was a literal gun fight.

1381
01:20:19,160 --> 01:20:20,439
Speaker 2: A firefight broke out.

1382
01:20:20,680 --> 01:20:25,080
Speaker 4: Shocks, you know, basically cracked across the Texas Prairie. Bullets

1383
01:20:25,080 --> 01:20:28,080
Speaker 4: are flying everywhere, and it was the gun battle for

1384
01:20:28,120 --> 01:20:30,760
Speaker 4: control of this religion. And nobody was killed. But the

1385
01:20:30,760 --> 01:20:35,160
Speaker 4: shootout ended with the police arresting Vernon and all of

1386
01:20:35,160 --> 01:20:39,760
Speaker 4: his disciples off to jail on attempted murder charges. But

1387
01:20:39,840 --> 01:20:42,760
Speaker 4: here's the twist. It should have ended there, right, like, okay,

1388
01:20:42,800 --> 01:20:47,320
Speaker 4: this is over. But George was so crazy in court,

1389
01:20:47,520 --> 01:20:50,800
Speaker 4: like he was screaming and he was rambling, he was

1390
01:20:50,880 --> 01:20:56,559
Speaker 4: referencing biblical warfare that the jury found Vernon not guilty

1391
01:20:56,800 --> 01:21:01,800
Speaker 4: of attempted murder, and George was committed to a psychiatric hospital.

1392
01:21:02,280 --> 01:21:04,600
Speaker 2: Wow, so this gets been avoided.

1393
01:21:04,920 --> 01:21:09,040
Speaker 4: Yes, So what did David Vernon at the time is

1394
01:21:09,040 --> 01:21:09,360
Speaker 4: why did.

1395
01:21:09,320 --> 01:21:11,240
Speaker 2: He change his name? It's making me crazy with the

1396
01:21:11,320 --> 01:21:13,000
Speaker 2: Vernon to the David whatever.

1397
01:21:14,240 --> 01:21:18,479
Speaker 4: It's yes, but this is this is when he sees power.

1398
01:21:18,600 --> 01:21:21,200
Speaker 4: He took the property, he claimed the followers, he moved in,

1399
01:21:21,840 --> 01:21:25,160
Speaker 4: and then he changed his name to David Koresh. That's

1400
01:21:25,160 --> 01:21:27,760
Speaker 4: when he changed his name to David krew and we

1401
01:21:27,800 --> 01:21:29,200
Speaker 4: know the rest of the story from there.

1402
01:21:29,680 --> 01:21:32,240
Speaker 2: That's honestly, that's so interesting.

1403
01:21:32,320 --> 01:21:36,080
Speaker 3: If this were talk about an origin story like this

1404
01:21:36,160 --> 01:21:40,000
Speaker 3: is I have to imagine that the masterminding of his

1405
01:21:40,800 --> 01:21:44,240
Speaker 3: just competence to make the sun look so crazy, he

1406
01:21:44,280 --> 01:21:47,920
Speaker 3: gets committed and then Vernon to be David palms out

1407
01:21:47,960 --> 01:21:53,520
Speaker 3: the Messiah. It's kind of amazing the king. Yeah, diabolical.

1408
01:21:53,680 --> 01:21:54,799
Speaker 3: What is the what's your favorite?

1409
01:21:55,040 --> 01:21:59,360
Speaker 2: Courtney? I mean, I love, I love.

1410
01:21:59,880 --> 01:22:02,240
Speaker 3: He is a megalomaniac for sure, and what he did

1411
01:22:02,600 --> 01:22:04,120
Speaker 3: and orchestrated was macabre.

1412
01:22:04,280 --> 01:22:05,519
Speaker 2: A couple of yemes in this.

1413
01:22:05,400 --> 01:22:09,120
Speaker 4: Whole double the whole thing made him look so important

1414
01:22:09,160 --> 01:22:12,439
Speaker 4: to his followers because look at he survived the shootout, right,

1415
01:22:13,040 --> 01:22:17,760
Speaker 4: he beat the charges and his rival was institutionalized like

1416
01:22:18,160 --> 01:22:21,800
Speaker 4: this guy must be the messiah, like he's beating everything.

1417
01:22:22,080 --> 01:22:28,320
Speaker 4: It really like put him in charge, like spiritually, for real,

1418
01:22:28,560 --> 01:22:31,920
Speaker 4: in every way possible in his because listen, you really

1419
01:22:31,920 --> 01:22:34,200
Speaker 4: have to have the belief of your disciples, right like

1420
01:22:34,520 --> 01:22:37,240
Speaker 4: I really do. And they they really did. They were like, Okay,

1421
01:22:37,720 --> 01:22:40,479
Speaker 4: this is the guy. This he's the prophet. He just

1422
01:22:40,520 --> 01:22:43,920
Speaker 4: needs a new name. So David is the biblical king

1423
01:22:44,160 --> 01:22:47,920
Speaker 4: he believed he descended from. And Koresh It's a Hebrew

1424
01:22:48,040 --> 01:22:51,720
Speaker 4: form of Cyrus, the Persian ruler who, in scripture, was

1425
01:22:51,800 --> 01:22:55,400
Speaker 4: chosen by God to liberate his people. This was David

1426
01:22:55,560 --> 01:22:57,040
Speaker 4: Korush's declaration.

1427
01:22:57,240 --> 01:22:59,759
Speaker 8: Oh, I never know how the last name came about.

1428
01:23:00,600 --> 01:23:01,599
Speaker 4: I didn't know how.

1429
01:23:03,960 --> 01:23:06,000
Speaker 2: That was like a little topper at the end there,

1430
01:23:06,080 --> 01:23:09,800
Speaker 2: But how is that origin story not a movie? I

1431
01:23:10,560 --> 01:23:12,559
Speaker 2: was just thinking, she was telling you, I don't know

1432
01:23:12,720 --> 01:23:15,640
Speaker 2: my story, and it's been told so many times for

1433
01:23:15,760 --> 01:23:16,800
Speaker 2: obvious reasons.

1434
01:23:17,080 --> 01:23:21,439
Speaker 4: This cult leader, Doris right, the older woman, the lowest.

1435
01:23:21,439 --> 01:23:23,880
Speaker 4: I'm sorry, she's in her sixties, she's a cult leader.

1436
01:23:24,320 --> 01:23:28,439
Speaker 4: She got ousted by another cult leader. Like it's it's

1437
01:23:28,520 --> 01:23:30,080
Speaker 4: mind blowing, it's mind blowing.

1438
01:23:30,720 --> 01:23:33,880
Speaker 2: It's so timely too. It's is that would that be

1439
01:23:33,960 --> 01:23:40,600
Speaker 2: considered grooming if you're a young te controversial question, I know,

1440
01:23:40,680 --> 01:23:43,880
Speaker 2: but I'm just curious. Oh my goodness, so much conversation

1441
01:23:44,000 --> 01:23:51,639
Speaker 2: about grooming and yeah, wow, yeah, crazy this weekend stuff

1442
01:23:52,400 --> 01:23:55,200
Speaker 2: like I know so much ketchup tomorrow. I know so

1443
01:23:55,320 --> 01:23:56,120
Speaker 2: much to ketch.

1444
01:23:55,920 --> 01:24:00,559
Speaker 4: Up on, Like I feel, I feel like something in

1445
01:24:00,600 --> 01:24:02,760
Speaker 4: the air. You guys, like, I don't know if you've

1446
01:24:02,760 --> 01:24:04,519
Speaker 4: been watching the news, but I've been glued to the

1447
01:24:04,560 --> 01:24:07,160
Speaker 4: news all weekend. I've just been kind of like over

1448
01:24:07,240 --> 01:24:09,880
Speaker 4: obsessing a little bit, and maybe that's why I feel.

1449
01:24:09,920 --> 01:24:12,759
Speaker 4: But the tension, I can feel it.

1450
01:24:12,760 --> 01:24:17,160
Speaker 2: It's building. Yeah, even I'm surprised how much it's building,

1451
01:24:17,240 --> 01:24:20,720
Speaker 2: I think for this week specifically. So I think we

1452
01:24:20,800 --> 01:24:23,479
Speaker 2: all just need to be paying attention right now. Not

1453
01:24:23,960 --> 01:24:29,200
Speaker 2: anything scary. This is not like dread sharing, but it

1454
01:24:29,240 --> 01:24:32,559
Speaker 2: does feel like things are going to heat up in

1455
01:24:32,680 --> 01:24:36,200
Speaker 2: the next coming days, and if they don't, it's because

1456
01:24:36,200 --> 01:24:38,360
Speaker 2: of something else that might be heating up, you know

1457
01:24:38,400 --> 01:24:41,960
Speaker 2: what I mean, Like the art of distraction. Yeah, I

1458
01:24:42,000 --> 01:24:45,720
Speaker 2: just spell all the things, all the things, you know.

1459
01:24:46,000 --> 01:24:49,000
Speaker 2: I wish, I wish, I wish, I could say otherwise.

1460
01:24:49,000 --> 01:24:51,439
Speaker 2: So I want to just like throw out positive thoughts

1461
01:24:52,840 --> 01:24:57,479
Speaker 2: and you know, the truth and good will prevail. You know.

1462
01:24:57,520 --> 01:25:00,280
Speaker 4: I really recommend people watching that wag Bog movie.

1463
01:25:00,080 --> 01:25:03,160
Speaker 2: Especially I'm going to watch it tonight. Actually, I was thinking.

1464
01:25:02,960 --> 01:25:04,519
Speaker 8: About it this whole week and it was a rainy week,

1465
01:25:04,560 --> 01:25:05,599
Speaker 8: and I was like, I should watch that.

1466
01:25:05,680 --> 01:25:06,840
Speaker 4: But it's really good.

1467
01:25:07,439 --> 01:25:08,320
Speaker 2: It's a good movie.

1468
01:25:08,360 --> 01:25:10,439
Speaker 4: And it's got like a lot of funny moments too,

1469
01:25:10,600 --> 01:25:13,920
Speaker 4: Like it's not like all serious, it's like a funny movie,

1470
01:25:13,960 --> 01:25:17,479
Speaker 4: but it's it's like this crisis that's happening in the

1471
01:25:17,560 --> 01:25:21,760
Speaker 4: presidency and he hires like a PR I'm I haven't

1472
01:25:21,760 --> 01:25:24,639
Speaker 4: seen it in like in decades. I'm remembering from my memory,

1473
01:25:24,640 --> 01:25:27,360
Speaker 4: which is terrible. And he basically hires like this PR

1474
01:25:27,400 --> 01:25:31,320
Speaker 4: firm and they invent this war to distract the American public.

1475
01:25:32,000 --> 01:25:32,880
Speaker 7: It's very good.

1476
01:25:33,479 --> 01:25:38,000
Speaker 3: And yeah, Justin Hoffman and Roberts Naro. So there's got

1477
01:25:38,040 --> 01:25:39,599
Speaker 3: some really such a good cast.

1478
01:25:40,760 --> 01:25:42,640
Speaker 2: Maybe even now the phone's a ring, we have a

1479
01:25:42,680 --> 01:25:44,160
Speaker 2: talk back. Let's go to a talkback right now.

1480
01:25:44,200 --> 01:25:48,360
Speaker 11: All right, let's do it, Hi, ladies. I love your show,

1481
01:25:48,800 --> 01:25:52,439
Speaker 11: listening and listening to it from day one. My name

1482
01:25:52,520 --> 01:25:55,400
Speaker 11: is Monica. I live in Naples, Florida. I work for

1483
01:25:55,439 --> 01:25:59,040
Speaker 11: the Naples the Shelter for Abuse Men and Children in Naples, Unamlockily.

1484
01:25:59,600 --> 01:26:01,920
Speaker 11: I want you to know that our shelter is one

1485
01:26:01,960 --> 01:26:05,240
Speaker 11: of the only ones that we accept b the divestic

1486
01:26:05,320 --> 01:26:11,040
Speaker 11: violence victims, human trafficking victims, with children and with pets

1487
01:26:11,080 --> 01:26:13,519
Speaker 11: in our culture. We have a tag kennel and a

1488
01:26:13,560 --> 01:26:17,960
Speaker 11: dog kennel and all of the victims are welcome in

1489
01:26:18,000 --> 01:26:22,960
Speaker 11: our shelter to be safe and sound. So love your show.

1490
01:26:23,120 --> 01:26:25,439
Speaker 11: Thank you so much. Hope to hear from you soon.

1491
01:26:25,920 --> 01:26:32,439
Speaker 4: Monica, you are an angel like covered and got unbelievable.

1492
01:26:33,160 --> 01:26:35,479
Speaker 2: That was Thank you for sharing that you. Thank you.

1493
01:26:35,479 --> 01:26:36,599
Speaker 2: We're all like a little choke.

1494
01:26:37,040 --> 01:26:37,840
Speaker 1: That was so weird.

1495
01:26:37,840 --> 01:26:40,040
Speaker 2: We all went from smiles for miles to just like

1496
01:26:40,200 --> 01:26:45,000
Speaker 2: full tears. What a beautiful voice of reason and sanity.

1497
01:26:45,240 --> 01:26:47,240
Speaker 2: Do you know how hard it is to dedicate your

1498
01:26:47,320 --> 01:26:52,000
Speaker 2: life like Monica is doing to a shelter that allows

1499
01:26:52,040 --> 01:26:54,120
Speaker 2: for that much grace?

1500
01:26:55,080 --> 01:26:57,880
Speaker 4: Yeah, I think I mentioned I did that that I

1501
01:26:57,960 --> 01:27:00,320
Speaker 4: did that talk about animal abuse and and this is

1502
01:27:00,320 --> 01:27:02,640
Speaker 4: not about me or animal abuse, but a lot of

1503
01:27:02,640 --> 01:27:08,040
Speaker 4: the times men and women who are in domestic violent situations. Obviously,

1504
01:27:08,120 --> 01:27:10,360
Speaker 4: when they leave, they're taking their children. The shelter will

1505
01:27:10,439 --> 01:27:12,960
Speaker 4: you know, let them in with their children, of course,

1506
01:27:14,080 --> 01:27:17,519
Speaker 4: but many times men and women won't leave if they

1507
01:27:17,520 --> 01:27:20,479
Speaker 4: have a pet a againity because they don't want to

1508
01:27:20,560 --> 01:27:23,200
Speaker 4: leave the pet and you know, in the hands of

1509
01:27:23,240 --> 01:27:28,120
Speaker 4: an abuser obviously, and many shelters won't allow pets, so

1510
01:27:28,160 --> 01:27:32,320
Speaker 4: they just don't leave. It's very sad. So Monica, what

1511
01:27:32,360 --> 01:27:34,559
Speaker 4: you're doing, I can't tell you how important it is,

1512
01:27:34,640 --> 01:27:38,400
Speaker 4: but the ripple effect will be felt for generations on it. Literally,

1513
01:27:38,600 --> 01:27:41,800
Speaker 4: think about the generations because every man or woman that

1514
01:27:41,840 --> 01:27:46,040
Speaker 4: she's saving by doing this, operating the shelter, they're breaking

1515
01:27:46,040 --> 01:27:48,840
Speaker 4: the generational trauma, right, it is.

1516
01:27:48,800 --> 01:27:50,800
Speaker 2: A trauma breaker. In fact, it's to put that on

1517
01:27:50,840 --> 01:27:53,800
Speaker 2: the website too, just so we have clear access to

1518
01:27:53,920 --> 01:27:57,559
Speaker 2: Monica's information and her shelter, and think about it. Sometimes

1519
01:27:57,560 --> 01:28:01,479
Speaker 2: if you're in abuse, and again, if anybody hearing us

1520
01:28:01,640 --> 01:28:06,200
Speaker 2: right now is in an abusive situation, we will also

1521
01:28:06,320 --> 01:28:08,920
Speaker 2: be posting a place where you can get twenty four

1522
01:28:08,920 --> 01:28:12,559
Speaker 2: to seven at least access to care on the phone

1523
01:28:12,800 --> 01:28:18,719
Speaker 2: instantly if you yeah, and sometimes you're lost, your pet

1524
01:28:18,840 --> 01:28:21,679
Speaker 2: is all you have. Yeah, they don't leave your side.

1525
01:28:22,400 --> 01:28:26,639
Speaker 2: So when you're healing and being re traumatized, sometimes it's

1526
01:28:26,680 --> 01:28:29,599
Speaker 2: your pet that becomes your best ally. So you can

1527
01:28:29,640 --> 01:28:33,519
Speaker 2: imagine that crossroads when it's time to leave. Monica, that

1528
01:28:33,640 --> 01:28:35,960
Speaker 2: was beautiful. It's also work you do.

1529
01:28:36,400 --> 01:28:39,400
Speaker 4: Pets are also something abusers hold over your head too. Yeah,

1530
01:28:39,439 --> 01:28:43,960
Speaker 4: for sure, Like you know, I'll if you don't do X,

1531
01:28:44,080 --> 01:28:48,600
Speaker 4: I'm going to harmor the good I'm not going to

1532
01:28:48,640 --> 01:28:51,000
Speaker 4: say my dog's name because I or Moti or anything,

1533
01:28:51,040 --> 01:28:54,080
Speaker 4: but yeah, you know, like yeah, it's just it's so

1534
01:28:54,840 --> 01:28:58,000
Speaker 4: Offering the pets is just it's life saver for many people.

1535
01:28:59,240 --> 01:29:00,479
Speaker 4: So bless you, Monica, thank.

1536
01:29:00,320 --> 01:29:03,120
Speaker 8: You appreciate that. And Stephanie to your point, well, make

1537
01:29:03,160 --> 01:29:04,439
Speaker 8: sure we post that info.

1538
01:29:04,520 --> 01:29:06,960
Speaker 5: But for sorry about all the background noise, but we'll

1539
01:29:07,000 --> 01:29:10,839
Speaker 5: post that info. And for anyone who wants to contact

1540
01:29:10,920 --> 01:29:14,000
Speaker 5: the National Domestic Violence Hotline, that number is one eight

1541
01:29:14,120 --> 01:29:18,040
Speaker 5: hundred seventy nine to nine safe and it's confidential and

1542
01:29:18,080 --> 01:29:20,920
Speaker 5: available twenty four to seven. And you can also text

1543
01:29:21,080 --> 01:29:24,000
Speaker 5: if that's an option that makes it easier for you

1544
01:29:24,040 --> 01:29:26,639
Speaker 5: to do it in a safe, discreet way. And also

1545
01:29:26,840 --> 01:29:30,880
Speaker 5: because Monica brought that up, the National Human trafficking hotline.

1546
01:29:31,120 --> 01:29:34,880
Speaker 5: That number is one eight eight three seven three seven

1547
01:29:35,000 --> 01:29:38,759
Speaker 5: eight eight eight. So there's help out there. There people

1548
01:29:38,800 --> 01:29:40,200
Speaker 5: that are waiting for your calls.

1549
01:29:41,160 --> 01:29:43,760
Speaker 2: And by the way, they're also brained. This is such

1550
01:29:43,760 --> 01:29:46,439
Speaker 2: a sensitive thing, but we really want to say it

1551
01:29:46,479 --> 01:29:48,400
Speaker 2: loud because you know, we talk about all kinds of

1552
01:29:48,400 --> 01:29:51,400
Speaker 2: stuff on this show, and you know, even sometimes we'll

1553
01:29:51,439 --> 01:29:53,559
Speaker 2: have a giggle or something, but at its core, it's

1554
01:29:53,560 --> 01:29:57,080
Speaker 2: really a safety show, adjust a show, a victim forward show.

1555
01:29:57,200 --> 01:30:01,080
Speaker 2: So if any scenario, if you're feeling a little unsure,

1556
01:30:01,280 --> 01:30:05,599
Speaker 2: you're not sure, you're not clear, they're really trained to

1557
01:30:05,680 --> 01:30:09,360
Speaker 2: take your call anonymously. It doesn't you don't have to

1558
01:30:09,439 --> 01:30:11,960
Speaker 2: sound like you know, sometimes if you're in the home

1559
01:30:12,240 --> 01:30:15,360
Speaker 2: with an abuser, the idea of even making a call

1560
01:30:15,680 --> 01:30:18,680
Speaker 2: can be very scary. Right that you're you're talking in

1561
01:30:18,720 --> 01:30:21,439
Speaker 2: the closet. You know, this is what happened sometimes, So

1562
01:30:22,080 --> 01:30:25,679
Speaker 2: they are trained to get your call and slightly talk

1563
01:30:25,760 --> 01:30:29,719
Speaker 2: in air quotes, code or you know, you're not alone

1564
01:30:29,920 --> 01:30:35,040
Speaker 2: number one, and there really are resources and you know

1565
01:30:35,040 --> 01:30:38,960
Speaker 2: tomorrow's a new day.

1566
01:30:38,479 --> 01:30:40,479
Speaker 4: Gosh, and you know it just I know it's so

1567
01:30:40,600 --> 01:30:43,000
Speaker 4: hard to make that call too, I know it is,

1568
01:30:43,680 --> 01:30:48,400
Speaker 4: And I feel like after after you make a call,

1569
01:30:48,439 --> 01:30:50,160
Speaker 4: you don't have to do anything. Just make the call.

1570
01:30:50,920 --> 01:30:53,320
Speaker 4: And once you've broken that ice, like you've done it

1571
01:30:53,479 --> 01:30:55,639
Speaker 4: one time, you do it again, you know what I mean?

1572
01:30:55,720 --> 01:30:59,320
Speaker 4: Like yep, but making that call is brave in and

1573
01:30:59,360 --> 01:31:02,519
Speaker 4: of itself, right, And again, you don't have to you

1574
01:31:02,560 --> 01:31:04,120
Speaker 4: don't have to do anything, you don't have to leave,

1575
01:31:04,160 --> 01:31:06,240
Speaker 4: you don't have to you know, pick up your have

1576
01:31:06,240 --> 01:31:07,960
Speaker 4: it all figured out, you don't have to have it

1577
01:31:08,000 --> 01:31:10,000
Speaker 4: all figured out. But once you break the ice and

1578
01:31:10,040 --> 01:31:13,000
Speaker 4: make that first call, because that's the hardest thing, make

1579
01:31:13,080 --> 01:31:15,840
Speaker 4: that first call, Just do it. Just make the call.

1580
01:31:16,320 --> 01:31:18,519
Speaker 2: And by the way, having it all figured out also,

1581
01:31:18,720 --> 01:31:21,280
Speaker 2: like the plan and the this and the that and

1582
01:31:21,280 --> 01:31:22,880
Speaker 2: what to do with this and finances and all the

1583
01:31:22,920 --> 01:31:25,200
Speaker 2: things like that, can be so overwhelming and sometimes the

1584
01:31:25,240 --> 01:31:27,719
Speaker 2: thing that makes you stay the most, Oh sure, right,

1585
01:31:27,760 --> 01:31:30,880
Speaker 2: because just like all of the ads and ands and

1586
01:31:30,880 --> 01:31:33,840
Speaker 2: ands and and let me give it to you straight,

1587
01:31:33,920 --> 01:31:36,519
Speaker 2: your life is the only thing that matters, period the end.

1588
01:31:36,880 --> 01:31:41,280
Speaker 2: Nothing else matters past that your safety. Everything else and

1589
01:31:41,720 --> 01:31:44,320
Speaker 2: fall into place and will with the right support. So

1590
01:31:45,360 --> 01:31:51,200
Speaker 2: not to oversimplify a very complicated thing, but just know

1591
01:31:51,320 --> 01:31:55,719
Speaker 2: that you know there are resources and that it's tougher

1592
01:31:55,720 --> 01:31:56,240
Speaker 2: than you thing.

1593
01:31:56,880 --> 01:32:00,400
Speaker 4: Oh yeah, I saw a video that a lot of

1594
01:32:00,400 --> 01:32:03,599
Speaker 4: the Epstein victims made. It was put on I saw

1595
01:32:03,600 --> 01:32:05,120
Speaker 4: it on Twitter. I don't know who made it.

1596
01:32:05,120 --> 01:32:06,480
Speaker 2: It's wildly powerful.

1597
01:32:06,600 --> 01:32:07,439
Speaker 4: It's so good.

1598
01:32:07,840 --> 01:32:11,120
Speaker 2: It is so maybe we could talk about it tomorrow. Yeah, tomorrow,

1599
01:32:11,240 --> 01:32:15,040
Speaker 2: I feel like we have a full if you have.

1600
01:32:15,280 --> 01:32:18,800
Speaker 3: A lot to talk about tomorrow and next week. I

1601
01:32:18,840 --> 01:32:22,120
Speaker 3: mean it's as of Friday, it's a really good fire

1602
01:32:22,240 --> 01:32:28,000
Speaker 3: hose of information and important videos coming out, and.

1603
01:32:27,760 --> 01:32:28,960
Speaker 2: It's it's really good.

1604
01:32:29,000 --> 01:32:31,680
Speaker 4: It's I mean, it teared me up, and you know,

1605
01:32:32,240 --> 01:32:33,920
Speaker 4: I don't know, it's just please go.

1606
01:32:33,920 --> 01:32:34,320
Speaker 2: Check it out.

1607
01:32:34,360 --> 01:32:36,160
Speaker 4: All you have to do is look for Epstein Survivor video.

1608
01:32:36,240 --> 01:32:38,920
Speaker 8: You'll what was the guest from Thursday In the video,

1609
01:32:39,479 --> 01:32:42,080
Speaker 8: she is amazing, she speaks in it.

1610
01:32:42,360 --> 01:32:44,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, she's really a front.

1611
01:32:45,120 --> 01:32:46,160
Speaker 4: Yeah, she's really good.

1612
01:32:46,520 --> 01:32:48,759
Speaker 2: And again, this is a case that speaks to anybody

1613
01:32:48,800 --> 01:32:52,599
Speaker 2: who's been victimized. Right, So, yes, there are forty plus

1614
01:32:52,640 --> 01:32:55,880
Speaker 2: women who are coming forward to putting together their voice

1615
01:32:56,080 --> 01:33:01,920
Speaker 2: in this particular never ending saga surrounding Epstein. And yes,

1616
01:33:02,200 --> 01:33:05,160
Speaker 2: you know, most would say that it might heat up

1617
01:33:05,160 --> 01:33:08,439
Speaker 2: a bit this week. We'll be paying close attention, but

1618
01:33:08,800 --> 01:33:11,960
Speaker 2: again it's like anyone who's been on the wrong side

1619
01:33:11,960 --> 01:33:16,040
Speaker 2: of it. We band together and you are enough and

1620
01:33:16,120 --> 01:33:19,599
Speaker 2: you are heard and listen. Thank you for a great week.

1621
01:33:19,640 --> 01:33:22,840
Speaker 2: We're going to start tomorrow strong. So despite how you

1622
01:33:22,880 --> 01:33:25,240
Speaker 2: may or may not be feeling tonight, tomorrow we are

1623
01:33:25,320 --> 01:33:28,519
Speaker 2: going to shimmy into it. We love you, Stay safe,

1624
01:33:28,560 --> 01:33:32,080
Speaker 2: Thank you for listening tonight, and Joseph Scott Morgan, we'll

1625
01:33:32,120 --> 01:33:33,000
Speaker 2: see you next week.