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Speaker 1: I'm Kate Winkler Dawson. I'm a journalist who's spent the

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Speaker 1: last twenty five years writing about true crime.

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Speaker 2: And I'm Paul Hols, a retired cold case investigator who's

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Speaker 2: worked some of America's most complicated cases and solve them.

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Speaker 1: Each week, I present Paul with one of history's most

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Speaker 1: compelling true crimes.

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Speaker 2: And I weigh in using modern forensic techniques to bring

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Speaker 2: new insights to old mysteries.

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Speaker 1: Together, using our individual expertise, we're examining historical true crime

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Speaker 1: cases through a twenty first century lens.

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Speaker 2: Some are solved and some are cold, very cold.

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Speaker 1: This is buried Bones. Hey Paul, Hey Kate, how are

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Speaker 1: you hum Well? It has been months since we have

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Speaker 1: been on our Virgin cruise. We had a great time

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Speaker 1: and this was an experience you and I have never

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Speaker 1: had before. We've never done a live show ever. What

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Speaker 1: a time to present one of the most awful cases

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Speaker 1: in front of this big audience on a moving ship.

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Speaker 1: I mean, what could go wrong?

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Speaker 2: No? You know, well, I think the live event. I mean,

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Speaker 2: we were, you know, sitting on stage, you know, and

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Speaker 2: of course people are watching us, which you know now

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Speaker 2: that we're on YouTube, of course people are watching us,

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Speaker 2: but we you had two computers in front of you.

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Speaker 2: I had a computer in front of me. We had

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Speaker 2: screens behind us. So it was definitely you know, the

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Speaker 2: challenge was trying to keep everything sort of straight, you know.

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Speaker 2: So it was actually something that was consumable both from

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Speaker 2: a visual and an audio standpoint.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. I loved the energy of the audience. I had

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Speaker 1: not expected that before. I know, you've done a lot

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Speaker 1: of live stuff, as have I with with Crime Con.

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Speaker 1: It's just different when you're presenting this information and you

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Speaker 1: know they haven't heard it, and to kind of hear

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Speaker 1: you know, people kind of going oh when you hear

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Speaker 1: sad things, or people clapping or laughing every once in

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Speaker 1: a while if we crack a joke at the appropriate time.

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Speaker 1: So it was it was really kind of a big

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Speaker 1: difference for me. I really enjoy I want to do

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Speaker 1: more of those shows. I think it was great.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, no, I really do enjoy the live events of

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Speaker 2: five episodes, just because, like what you said, there is

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Speaker 2: an energy, you know, and so interacting with the audience

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Speaker 2: in real time, you know, it's it's almost like you know,

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Speaker 2: when I testify, you know, I'll look at the jury

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Speaker 2: and if I see juror starting to nod as I'm talking,

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Speaker 2: it's like, Okay, I'm relating with them. So up on

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Speaker 2: stage when we're doing Black Dollia, seeing out to the

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Speaker 2: audience and how the audience was responding to us, it's like, yes,

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Speaker 2: you know, they're they're actually enjoying this and they're consuming

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Speaker 2: the information. They're they're absorbing.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and it's such an important story. So for anybody

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Speaker 1: who's listening or watching, if you have not gone back

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Speaker 1: around the Halloween time to listen to or watch our

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Speaker 1: bonus episode about Black Dahlia, you really should because it's

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Speaker 1: the hell of a case. And I thought Paul did

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Speaker 1: a fantastic job. And I get constant messages from people saying,

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Speaker 1: I have heard this case thousands of times. I've watched

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Speaker 1: documentaries on it. I've never heard some of the stuff

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Speaker 1: that Paul talked about. And that's the goal. We're taking

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Speaker 1: old cases and taking a fresh look. That's the whole thing.

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Speaker 2: Right, And that's where like with Black Doahlia, because of

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Speaker 2: course I had heard sort of the mythology in terms

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Speaker 2: of the various types of investigative theories, but I don't

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Speaker 2: think you had somebody previously that has my background take

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Speaker 2: a look at what happened to her, you know, And

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Speaker 2: in this particular case, which was so helpful was the

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Speaker 2: actual photos, I mean really good photos of her at

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Speaker 2: the crime scene that I could interpret. And it was

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Speaker 2: stunning how different what my thoughts were versus what everybody

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Speaker 2: else's investigative theories were. And you know, it's sort of like, well,

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Speaker 2: I've worked these types of cases, you know, this is

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Speaker 2: where it's like, I know what's going on here, and

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Speaker 2: I felt that I, you know, came to the right

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Speaker 2: conclusions and hopefully, you know, people who are wanting to

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Speaker 2: listen to it in the future will understand you know that, Okay,

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Speaker 2: you know, I am at least bringing a level of

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Speaker 2: insight that I don't think has been brought onto that

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Speaker 2: case before.

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Speaker 1: And I think what's so great about what you do

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Speaker 1: is if somebody who doesn't understand things too, you know,

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Speaker 1: as a professional investigator, they'll take a piece of evidence

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Speaker 1: and misinterpret it. And when that happens, just like if

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Speaker 1: you're an inexperienced, you know, person in law enforcement, you

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Speaker 1: have a case and if you don't know, if you

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Speaker 1: misinterpret one piece of evidence, it shoots you down a

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Speaker 1: road that is not the right road, and it sounds

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Speaker 1: like that that has kind of happened in this case somewhat,

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Speaker 1: but we don't have answers, and that's one of the

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Speaker 1: big problems. We don't know. If you're right, it'd be

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Speaker 1: great to know, but we don't know.

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Speaker 2: You know, law enforcement when it's the unusual, and when

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Speaker 2: you're dealing with, let's say, a predator and a predator

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Speaker 2: that's a stranger to the victim, most law enforcement has

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Speaker 2: never worked that type of case, and they don't understand

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Speaker 2: some of the paraphilias, some of the really deviant behaviors

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Speaker 2: that these predators have, and so they try to take

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Speaker 2: a case and fit it into something what they know,

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Speaker 2: what they've experienced before. And that's where you know, in

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Speaker 2: Black Dahlia, having worked predatory cases, I'm saying, oh, hold on,

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Speaker 2: I'm seeing exactly what's going on, you know, And it's

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Speaker 2: a horrific case when you really get down to the

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Speaker 2: details of what happened to her.

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Speaker 1: So we've talked about how wonderful La Cruz was, and

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Speaker 1: I think a lot of people responded to Black Dahlia

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Speaker 1: because it is this legendary really disturbing, really just thought

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Speaker 1: provoking case. So this is the case that I'm going

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Speaker 1: to getting ready to present to you, is one of

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Speaker 1: those cases too. It's a well known case. I don't

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Speaker 1: know if you've ever heard of it before. I'm not

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Speaker 1: going to tell you the name of it yet, but

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Speaker 1: it's a complicated case. But I want to warn people

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Speaker 1: from the beginning that this is about sexual assault, and

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Speaker 1: it does involve sexual assault and murder of children, so

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Speaker 1: you know, kind of going into this, this is already

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Speaker 1: a very difficult case. But this is one of those

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Speaker 1: big cases that I've had a lot of people ask

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Speaker 1: for your opinion about. So don't mess it up, Okay,

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Speaker 1: I'll try not keep Okay, let's set the scene. We're

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Speaker 1: in Velliska, Iowa, and this is a small but prosperous

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Speaker 1: town of about twenty five hundred people. And this is

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Speaker 1: nineteen twelve, so this is before Prohibition, before the Great Depression,

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Speaker 1: before all of that. So this is just a sleepy town,

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Speaker 1: but you know, a town that has some money. And

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Speaker 1: we're going to be talking about one particular family. So

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Speaker 1: this was a really weird mourning for some folks in

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Speaker 1: the town. It's about seven thirty in the morning, and

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Speaker 1: it is Monday, June tenth, as I said nineteen twelve.

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Speaker 1: So there is a woman who's been up for kind

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Speaker 1: of a long time. Her name is Mary Peckham, and

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Speaker 1: she has some very affluent neighbors. They're called the Moors,

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Speaker 1: the More Family, And she says that at seven thirty

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Speaker 1: in the morning on a Monday, that house would have

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Speaker 1: been buzzing because you know, you've got people who are

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Speaker 1: doing chores, You've got the kids doing chores, and you know,

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Speaker 1: the father would have gotten up. There just would have

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Speaker 1: been a lot of people around because they have four kids,

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Speaker 1: and they are eleven and ten and seven and five,

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Speaker 1: three boys and a girl, and they are allowed. As

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Speaker 1: you know, we both have had children that age. So

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Speaker 1: she's alarmed. She's very alarmed that nothing is happening at

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Speaker 1: that house. It shouldn't be quiet, and also that the

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Speaker 1: shades are drawn. And I know that that's one of

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Speaker 1: those important things where you know your neighbor's really well.

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Speaker 1: You know, if there's been a strange car park in

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Speaker 1: the driveway for a long time, that maybe something happened.

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Speaker 1: We've talked about the family who left the laundry out

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Speaker 1: and I got soaked in the water in the rain,

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Speaker 1: and that's how people knew something was wrong. So Mary

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Speaker 1: Peckham thinks something's wrong at the moorhouse because the shades

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Speaker 1: are drawn and there's nothing happening.

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Speaker 2: Now, is this like a farm town or like ranches?

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Speaker 2: Is that what we're talking about. Mary's house is a

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Speaker 2: distance away from the Moor's house.

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Speaker 1: Mary is close enough so that she's able to see

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Speaker 1: the shades are drawn at the house. And this is

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Speaker 1: not a particularly large house. I'll show you a little

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Speaker 1: bit about it in a minute, but this is not

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Speaker 1: three acres away. They're fairly close, so she's able to

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Speaker 1: make some observations. And obviously she can hear that nothing's

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Speaker 1: happening with all those kids. So she goes to the farmhouse.

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Speaker 1: She knocks on the door. There's no answer. So she

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Speaker 1: contacts the Moor's relative, who's a guy named Ross Moore,

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Speaker 1: and he gets there about it looks like forty five

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Speaker 1: minutes later, and he taps on the window, locks the

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Speaker 1: west parlor door, and he enters and the house is

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Speaker 1: totally dark. So you've got a mother and a father

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Speaker 1: and four kids in this house. Not only are the

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Speaker 1: blinds drawn, but the front door's glass is covered by

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Speaker 1: a black skirt that's been ripped in half. So kind

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Speaker 1: of like my cottage, everything's blacked out. You can't see

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Speaker 1: anything that's happening inside from the outside. He makes his

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Speaker 1: way to the ground floor guest bedroom. So this house

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Speaker 1: looks about two stories, you know, two story white farmhouse,

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Speaker 1: and on the first floor there's a guest bedroom. He

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Speaker 1: goes there, he sees two small figures covered in blood

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Speaker 1: soaked bed sheets and pillows, and he assumes it's two kids.

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Speaker 1: So he doesn't even go upstairs.

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Speaker 2: Well, at least from a preservation of a crime scene,

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Speaker 2: you know, what is actually going on at that moment

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Speaker 2: as he's going through the house. Are people actively being hurt.

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Speaker 2: It's an a fender that's still in there, but we

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Speaker 2: can't exp Ross, you know, to take that type of

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Speaker 2: responsibility on.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I was thinking more of a Ross not getting killed.

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Speaker 1: Oh kind of point of view. I wouldn't. I'm not

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Speaker 1: sure i'd go upstairs either, Okay, So Ross leaves. He

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Speaker 1: calls the police. It's a guy named Henry who goes

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Speaker 1: by Hank Horton and he is the Marshal of Veliska.

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Speaker 1: But he doesn't have a lot of training here, so

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Speaker 1: he gets here at eight thirty, same time as another

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Speaker 1: relative came. So the Moors are kind of all over

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Speaker 1: this town of Olliska. It sounds like they go into

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Speaker 1: the guest bedroom. That's where Ross points him and hank

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Speaker 1: Un covers two figures and they are two little girls,

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Speaker 1: eight year old Aina May Stillinger and twelve year old

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Speaker 1: Lena Gertrude Stillinger. And you'll notice that they are not

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Speaker 1: named Moore. These are sleepover visitors.

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Speaker 2: I was going to say, because you said the Moors

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Speaker 2: had four kids, three boys and one girl.

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Speaker 1: Right, Okay, so they were brutally bludgeoned. And you know

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Speaker 1: these were, as I said, family friends who wanted to

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Speaker 1: spend the night. So the Moors said, yes, they are dead,

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Speaker 1: and I have details on more murders. I also have

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Speaker 1: details on the specific injuries about these two little girls

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Speaker 1: who are not Moors. So where do you want to

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Speaker 1: head next?

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Speaker 2: Why don't we kind of walk through the crime scene first,

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Speaker 2: and then we can go back and revisit what happened

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Speaker 2: to each of the victims.

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Speaker 1: Okay, I'm going to skip over the observations of the

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Speaker 1: guest room and where the two little girls were and

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Speaker 1: we'll come back to that. So it sounds like the

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Speaker 1: only bedroom on the ground floor is this one guest room,

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Speaker 1: so they go upstairs. Every mirror in the house is

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Speaker 1: covered with a blanket or an apron, or a skirt

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Speaker 1: or some other gorment.

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Speaker 2: Oh, now that's significant.

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Speaker 1: In the main bedroom where the parents would be, there

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Speaker 1: as blood that has been splattered across the headboard and

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Speaker 1: onto the wall. It soaks the clothes that cover the

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Speaker 1: faces of the parents. The father is forty three year

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Speaker 1: old Josiah More, and then his thirty nine year old

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Speaker 1: wife is Sarah More. They're laying side by side, and

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Speaker 1: they appear to have been sleeping peacefully when they were attacked,

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Speaker 1: and Sarah is still wearing her gold wedding band. But

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Speaker 1: both of their faces are completely obliterated. Is I think

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Speaker 1: what Hank has said the investigator Josiah's face was beaten

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Speaker 1: so brutally with the blunt side of an axe. They

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Speaker 1: say that his face and his eyes were no more

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Speaker 1: than pulp. Sarah's face has been hacked with this sharp

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Speaker 1: edge of an axe, reducing it to approximately one inch. Slices.

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Speaker 1: Slivers of their skulls which are about two or three

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Speaker 1: inches long are scattered throughout the bed. Such brutality, they

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Speaker 1: think resulted in about twenty to thirty blows per person.

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Speaker 1: Do you know that that Josiah received the most blows

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Speaker 1: out of everybody?

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Speaker 2: Okay, and he's also you know, the adult male inside

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Speaker 2: the house, he's the biggest threat. But also is he

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Speaker 2: due to the volume of blows does that indicate that

241
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Speaker 2: maybe he was more of the intended target, that the

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Speaker 2: offender had greater angst against Josiah than the other family members.

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Speaker 2: So we'll see how this develops. I just want to clarify.

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Speaker 2: I think you said that their heads were covered with clothing,

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Speaker 2: and that was both Josiah and Sarah's heads.

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Speaker 1: Clothes that cover their face. You're right, yep, okay.

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Speaker 2: All right, that's another significant behavioral aspect potent. You know,

248
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Speaker 2: there's potentially and this is also taking a look at

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Speaker 2: at the crime scene. You know, sometimes you could see

250
00:13:46,440 --> 00:13:49,319
Speaker 2: where there's what I would refer to as a spatter

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Speaker 2: guard that offenders can use. You know, they're recognizing, you know,

252
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Speaker 2: all of a sudden, they've got a lot of blood

253
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Speaker 2: and brain matter that's going all over the place, and

254
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Speaker 2: so they'll put this guard the spatter guard in place

255
00:14:00,240 --> 00:14:04,760
Speaker 2: as they inflict more blows. But if it's occurring after

256
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Speaker 2: they kill both Josiah and Sarah, then that's behaviorally very significant.

257
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Speaker 2: That indicates that, you know, the offender is potentially has

258
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Speaker 2: a closer relationship to the victims than what a stranger

259
00:14:20,200 --> 00:14:25,920
Speaker 2: would and or is not accepting what his actions have

260
00:14:26,040 --> 00:14:29,600
Speaker 2: been and he's trying to, you know, in essence, block

261
00:14:29,960 --> 00:14:31,760
Speaker 2: the site of the victims and what he did to

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Speaker 2: the victims.

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Speaker 1: Well, let's keep moving along here. We're going to stay

264
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Speaker 1: in the main bedroom with Josiah and Sarah. The investigators

265
00:14:42,240 --> 00:14:45,040
Speaker 1: look to the top of the ceiling and this is

266
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Speaker 1: seven feet four inches above the floor. Okay, that's how

267
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Speaker 1: tall the ceiling is. There slashes in the wallpaper made

268
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Speaker 1: by the upswing of an axe. Plaster from the ceiling

269
00:14:57,440 --> 00:15:00,520
Speaker 1: powders the bed and the floor. One of sarah shoes

270
00:15:00,560 --> 00:15:03,040
Speaker 1: is on its side near the bed, and blood that

271
00:15:03,080 --> 00:15:07,440
Speaker 1: had filled the shoe has poured onto the floor, and

272
00:15:07,520 --> 00:15:11,160
Speaker 1: there's more blood that speckles the shoe's sole. So bloody,

273
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Speaker 1: bloody scene. What does that mean is he's standing on

274
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Speaker 1: the bed and the axe is literally hitting the ceiling

275
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Speaker 1: as he's bludgeoning them right now.

276
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Speaker 2: I can't say where the offender is at relative to

277
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Speaker 2: the victims when he's inflicting the blows. But a seven

278
00:15:24,080 --> 00:15:26,760
Speaker 2: foot four ceiling is a very low ceiling. And you

279
00:15:26,760 --> 00:15:28,840
Speaker 2: think about the length of an axe, and if you

280
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Speaker 2: have you know, an average height person, male or female,

281
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Speaker 2: you know if you're going to swing, if you're holding

282
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Speaker 2: the axe towards the end of the handle like axes

283
00:15:40,160 --> 00:15:44,000
Speaker 2: typically are used, and you swing that axe up in

284
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Speaker 2: order to strike a blow, you're going to hit the ceiling.

285
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Speaker 2: You're going to hit an eight foot ceiling. You know.

286
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Speaker 2: Typically to use such a long weapon inside an average

287
00:15:54,080 --> 00:15:57,760
Speaker 2: height rooms with average ceiling height, you have to choke

288
00:15:57,840 --> 00:16:00,160
Speaker 2: up on the handle of the axe, or you have

289
00:16:00,200 --> 00:16:03,640
Speaker 2: to swing it at a diagonal to prevent hitting the ceiling.

290
00:16:04,000 --> 00:16:09,280
Speaker 2: But it also sounds that the axe is also striking

291
00:16:09,960 --> 00:16:15,800
Speaker 2: the wall and is damaging the wallpaper. And I've imagined

292
00:16:16,600 --> 00:16:19,640
Speaker 2: you haven't said where that is. Is that above the headboard.

293
00:16:20,680 --> 00:16:24,120
Speaker 2: If it's above the headboard, then this is now putting

294
00:16:24,120 --> 00:16:28,080
Speaker 2: the offender potentially up onto the bed or right off

295
00:16:28,120 --> 00:16:29,960
Speaker 2: to the side of the bed. And with a side

296
00:16:30,040 --> 00:16:32,720
Speaker 2: you know, more of a diagonal type swing is now

297
00:16:32,760 --> 00:16:35,920
Speaker 2: striking the wall. So you know, there's different ways that

298
00:16:35,920 --> 00:16:38,800
Speaker 2: that could occur, and that's all part of the you know,

299
00:16:38,840 --> 00:16:41,040
Speaker 2: with photos I might be able to interpret.

300
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Speaker 1: Well, I'll tell you something that's interesting. At the farmhouse

301
00:16:45,080 --> 00:16:49,440
Speaker 1: that my parents owned from eighteen ninety one, thing that

302
00:16:49,480 --> 00:16:51,440
Speaker 1: always shocked me about it that it was hard to

303
00:16:51,440 --> 00:16:54,080
Speaker 1: get used to for some reason, is there was wallpaper

304
00:16:54,160 --> 00:16:54,880
Speaker 1: on the ceiling.

305
00:16:55,120 --> 00:16:56,640
Speaker 2: Oh okay, so when we.

306
00:16:56,560 --> 00:16:58,960
Speaker 1: Talk about the wallpaper, it is on the ceiling in

307
00:16:59,000 --> 00:17:01,320
Speaker 1: this case, So all of the gashes are on the

308
00:17:01,360 --> 00:17:02,720
Speaker 1: ceiling because it's wallpapered.

309
00:17:02,880 --> 00:17:05,359
Speaker 2: Yeah, and so this is just now you have a

310
00:17:06,320 --> 00:17:10,720
Speaker 2: longer weapon that is striking the ceiling as the offender

311
00:17:10,840 --> 00:17:12,080
Speaker 2: is swinging the axe.

312
00:17:12,440 --> 00:17:16,280
Speaker 1: Okay, here's the thing. The murder weapon is found on

313
00:17:16,320 --> 00:17:19,119
Speaker 1: the ground floor with the first two girls. Do you

314
00:17:19,119 --> 00:17:20,840
Speaker 1: want to go back? But when we do that, we

315
00:17:20,920 --> 00:17:23,040
Speaker 1: have to talk about their bodies. But then we have

316
00:17:23,080 --> 00:17:25,280
Speaker 1: to go back upstairs because we have more people.

317
00:17:25,960 --> 00:17:30,399
Speaker 2: Actually, let's just continue walking through the upstairs so I

318
00:17:30,480 --> 00:17:32,320
Speaker 2: know the extent of the crimes and then we can

319
00:17:32,359 --> 00:17:33,919
Speaker 2: get into the details at each location.

320
00:17:34,640 --> 00:17:38,360
Speaker 1: Okay, now it gets extremely hard. This has been hard already,

321
00:17:38,400 --> 00:17:40,200
Speaker 1: but now we're going to go to the kids room

322
00:17:40,520 --> 00:17:44,080
Speaker 1: upstairs down the hall from the parents room. They walk

323
00:17:44,160 --> 00:17:47,480
Speaker 1: in and there are toys scattered, and then they see

324
00:17:47,480 --> 00:17:52,080
Speaker 1: the bodies lying on their beds, faces covered. Are eleven

325
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Speaker 1: year old Herman, one of the boys, ten year old

326
00:17:55,240 --> 00:17:59,639
Speaker 1: Mary Catherine, the one girl, seven year old Arthur Boyd,

327
00:18:00,400 --> 00:18:04,760
Speaker 1: and five year old Paul Vernon Moore. They're small, skulls

328
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Speaker 1: are all crushed upswings from the axe, slice the ceiling

329
00:18:10,040 --> 00:18:14,520
Speaker 1: plaster eight feet okay from the floor, So same kind

330
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Speaker 1: of thing. Everybody's dead. And that's the end of our victims.

331
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Speaker 1: So we've got the four more kids in one bedroom.

332
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Speaker 1: We've got the parents, so you've got six. And then

333
00:18:24,280 --> 00:18:26,280
Speaker 1: you've got the two little girls who were friends of

334
00:18:26,320 --> 00:18:28,960
Speaker 1: the one little girl and they decided to spend the

335
00:18:29,040 --> 00:18:30,000
Speaker 1: night in the guest room.

336
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Speaker 2: And based at least with what you've told me, it

337
00:18:34,320 --> 00:18:37,639
Speaker 2: sounds the parents were in their bed as if they

338
00:18:37,640 --> 00:18:42,240
Speaker 2: had gone to bed normally. The kids are in their beds.

339
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Speaker 2: Do they have individual beds, do they share beds? Do

340
00:18:46,680 --> 00:18:48,440
Speaker 2: we have any details on that.

341
00:18:48,680 --> 00:18:50,679
Speaker 1: It does look like they have individual beds.

342
00:18:50,960 --> 00:18:54,480
Speaker 2: And then the two non family members, the two little

343
00:18:54,480 --> 00:18:57,520
Speaker 2: girls that are downstairs in the guest room. They're also

344
00:18:58,200 --> 00:19:00,600
Speaker 2: you know, you'd think, okay, they're the gas So now

345
00:19:00,760 --> 00:19:04,560
Speaker 2: they're sleeping separate from the family. So it sounds like

346
00:19:04,760 --> 00:19:08,959
Speaker 2: this crime occurred after the moors and the two guest

347
00:19:09,320 --> 00:19:13,760
Speaker 2: girls went to bed, Yes, and possibly everybody was asleep

348
00:19:14,080 --> 00:19:17,120
Speaker 2: when they are being struck with the axe.

349
00:19:17,320 --> 00:19:19,960
Speaker 1: It sounds like it so far. We need to now

350
00:19:20,040 --> 00:19:23,720
Speaker 1: go back downstairs because we've finished with the number of

351
00:19:23,800 --> 00:19:26,960
Speaker 1: victims we've had, so we have a total of eight,

352
00:19:27,800 --> 00:19:32,360
Speaker 1: six moors and two still injurers. Yes, so back downstairs

353
00:19:32,359 --> 00:19:34,440
Speaker 1: with the two little girls. So remember it's eight year

354
00:19:34,440 --> 00:19:38,480
Speaker 1: old Na and twelve year old Lena. They have their

355
00:19:38,480 --> 00:19:43,920
Speaker 1: faces so badly mutilated that they are unrecognizable. Blood soaks

356
00:19:43,960 --> 00:19:47,280
Speaker 1: the sheets and pillows, but has not seeped through the mattress.

357
00:19:47,800 --> 00:19:51,199
Speaker 1: The youngest girl is on her back and she's on

358
00:19:51,240 --> 00:19:53,480
Speaker 1: the part of the bed that sneaks to the wall. Okay,

359
00:19:53,800 --> 00:19:56,280
Speaker 1: her face has been sliced with a sharp edge of

360
00:19:56,280 --> 00:19:59,880
Speaker 1: an axe. The older child, so that's twelve year old Lena,

361
00:20:00,320 --> 00:20:04,200
Speaker 1: lies across the bed, face down. Her nightgown is pushed

362
00:20:04,359 --> 00:20:07,920
Speaker 1: up above her waist, her underwear is pulled off, and

363
00:20:07,960 --> 00:20:11,919
Speaker 1: her left leg is bent, exposing her genitals. One of

364
00:20:12,000 --> 00:20:14,840
Speaker 1: Lena's feet are hanging off the side of the bed.

365
00:20:15,280 --> 00:20:17,760
Speaker 1: There is an oil lamp at the foot of the

366
00:20:17,800 --> 00:20:23,240
Speaker 1: bed that illuminates her exposed body. The lamp's glass chimney

367
00:20:23,680 --> 00:20:28,239
Speaker 1: has rolled under a dresser on an adjacent wall. In

368
00:20:28,280 --> 00:20:32,439
Speaker 1: addition to the wax to her head, one of her

369
00:20:32,560 --> 00:20:37,320
Speaker 1: arms is also wounded. It's raised under her pillow, resting

370
00:20:37,480 --> 00:20:39,959
Speaker 1: on a pool of blood. On the inside of her

371
00:20:40,040 --> 00:20:43,600
Speaker 1: left thigh, there is a bloody mark. An old dull

372
00:20:43,960 --> 00:20:49,679
Speaker 1: four pound single bitted axe is partially wiped clean and

373
00:20:49,760 --> 00:20:52,720
Speaker 1: it leans against the wall. And this is why this

374
00:20:52,760 --> 00:20:55,639
Speaker 1: story is known as the Veliska axe murders.

375
00:20:55,920 --> 00:20:58,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, so now it's a matter of trying to sequence

376
00:20:59,320 --> 00:21:03,600
Speaker 2: how the effect under went through and killed eight people

377
00:21:03,640 --> 00:21:06,919
Speaker 2: inside this house. You know, So right now, you know

378
00:21:06,960 --> 00:21:11,160
Speaker 2: you've talked about I mean Lena, who's twelve years old.

379
00:21:11,720 --> 00:21:14,800
Speaker 2: She is of the kids in the house, she's the

380
00:21:14,880 --> 00:21:18,040
Speaker 2: oldest female. And of course you have Sarah, you know,

381
00:21:18,040 --> 00:21:20,800
Speaker 2: who's upstairs. But there's no indication that there's a sexual

382
00:21:20,840 --> 00:21:23,160
Speaker 2: assault on Sarah. One of the things that I would

383
00:21:23,200 --> 00:21:27,520
Speaker 2: be looking for with Lena, is there any indication that

384
00:21:27,560 --> 00:21:30,200
Speaker 2: she had been killed prior to the sexual assault, or

385
00:21:30,200 --> 00:21:33,800
Speaker 2: did the sexual assault to cur first right now with

386
00:21:34,880 --> 00:21:38,400
Speaker 2: Ena laying on the bed dead and Lena on top

387
00:21:38,480 --> 00:21:41,360
Speaker 2: of her but kind of sideways to where now her

388
00:21:41,400 --> 00:21:44,520
Speaker 2: lower body is in a position to where the offender

389
00:21:44,800 --> 00:21:48,920
Speaker 2: could engage with sex with her. My suspicion is that

390
00:21:49,119 --> 00:21:53,720
Speaker 2: the two girls were very possibly killed, the family was

391
00:21:53,760 --> 00:21:59,320
Speaker 2: then killed upstairs, and the offender came back and sexually

392
00:21:59,359 --> 00:22:02,640
Speaker 2: assaulted Lena, And that's why the axe is in that room.

393
00:22:02,760 --> 00:22:06,879
Speaker 2: That's the last location. He's already done killing everybody in

394
00:22:06,920 --> 00:22:09,040
Speaker 2: the house, so he's leaving the axe in the in

395
00:22:09,440 --> 00:22:13,160
Speaker 2: the guest bedroom while he's sexually assault Lena and walks out.

396
00:22:13,320 --> 00:22:16,840
Speaker 2: You know, right now, that's my kind of my working theory.

397
00:22:16,960 --> 00:22:20,680
Speaker 2: Without taking a look at any of the photos.

398
00:22:22,200 --> 00:22:24,439
Speaker 1: Would you have to know the layout of this house?

399
00:22:24,640 --> 00:22:27,520
Speaker 1: Or does initially does this seem like a crime of

400
00:22:27,560 --> 00:22:30,480
Speaker 1: opportunity or is this someone who has been stalking this

401
00:22:30,600 --> 00:22:33,159
Speaker 1: family or a member of the family or anything like

402
00:22:33,160 --> 00:22:35,240
Speaker 1: that who would need to know the layout of the house.

403
00:22:36,000 --> 00:22:41,280
Speaker 2: The big variable is the family being awake versus being asleep,

404
00:22:41,359 --> 00:22:45,159
Speaker 2: And right now I would offer up that I believe

405
00:22:45,240 --> 00:22:48,119
Speaker 2: that everybody is asleep inside the house. So this affords

406
00:22:48,160 --> 00:22:50,800
Speaker 2: an offender who can move through the house to learn

407
00:22:50,920 --> 00:22:55,479
Speaker 2: its layout and determine where everybody is at, you know,

408
00:22:55,640 --> 00:22:57,960
Speaker 2: and be what what would consider, you know, like a

409
00:22:58,000 --> 00:23:00,639
Speaker 2: cat burglar. You know, can can silence moved through the

410
00:23:00,640 --> 00:23:04,159
Speaker 2: house and then plot out, you know, how to go

411
00:23:04,280 --> 00:23:07,919
Speaker 2: about to kill everybody in the house. So that's you know,

412
00:23:08,080 --> 00:23:10,200
Speaker 2: that's where it's It's going to be hard under those

413
00:23:10,200 --> 00:23:14,159
Speaker 2: circumstances to say that this offender had prior knowledge of

414
00:23:14,160 --> 00:23:17,879
Speaker 2: the layout of the house. Now you know the aspects

415
00:23:17,920 --> 00:23:20,679
Speaker 2: of the crime, and the unusual aspects of the crime

416
00:23:21,080 --> 00:23:25,120
Speaker 2: are you know, the moors, you know, they're all covered up.

417
00:23:26,480 --> 00:23:29,760
Speaker 2: So the adults are covered up, the kids are covered up.

418
00:23:30,480 --> 00:23:34,040
Speaker 2: Were Ena and Lina's heads covered up?

419
00:23:34,440 --> 00:23:37,280
Speaker 1: It doesn't sound like it. Well, now, remember that Lena,

420
00:23:37,440 --> 00:23:40,639
Speaker 1: the twelve year old, was face down, right, Ena was

421
00:23:40,680 --> 00:23:42,879
Speaker 1: face up. But I don't see anything about it being covered.

422
00:23:42,920 --> 00:23:44,680
Speaker 1: Could be I just don't see it in this research.

423
00:23:44,840 --> 00:23:47,879
Speaker 2: Okay, So the non family members are not covered and

424
00:23:47,960 --> 00:23:51,119
Speaker 2: all the moors are covered, so there's a there's a

425
00:23:51,119 --> 00:23:55,240
Speaker 2: difference between these victims in the offender's mind. Now You've

426
00:23:55,240 --> 00:23:58,760
Speaker 2: also mentioned that the offender has all the shades are

427
00:23:58,840 --> 00:24:01,840
Speaker 2: drawn the front or the you know, the the windows

428
00:24:01,840 --> 00:24:04,199
Speaker 2: to the front door, you know, have a black skirt

429
00:24:04,280 --> 00:24:07,640
Speaker 2: over them. All the mirrors in the house have been covered.

430
00:24:08,440 --> 00:24:11,920
Speaker 2: Right now, this is something the offender isn't doing. Any

431
00:24:12,000 --> 00:24:15,439
Speaker 2: time you see an offender do something that is not

432
00:24:15,800 --> 00:24:20,120
Speaker 2: necessary for you know, committing the crime or the escape,

433
00:24:20,440 --> 00:24:23,800
Speaker 2: the mirrors are nothing, right, There's nothing about the mirrors

434
00:24:23,880 --> 00:24:26,800
Speaker 2: that are a threat to the offender. He doesn't want

435
00:24:26,840 --> 00:24:32,520
Speaker 2: to see him or herself. Now, with Lena being sexually assaulted,

436
00:24:32,640 --> 00:24:35,760
Speaker 2: that suggests that the offender is a male. You know,

437
00:24:35,800 --> 00:24:38,600
Speaker 2: I don't know if they identified semen that would be

438
00:24:38,680 --> 00:24:41,800
Speaker 2: conclusive to say it's a male. I mean, but we

439
00:24:41,880 --> 00:24:44,400
Speaker 2: know that it's very very unusual in a violent crime

440
00:24:44,520 --> 00:24:47,280
Speaker 2: like this for a female to sexually assault a female.

441
00:24:48,080 --> 00:24:50,919
Speaker 2: So right now I would say it's strongly looking like

442
00:24:51,240 --> 00:24:54,200
Speaker 2: you know, chances are the offender is male. But why

443
00:24:54,280 --> 00:24:58,240
Speaker 2: is he covering the mirrors? You know, that is significant

444
00:24:58,760 --> 00:25:02,520
Speaker 2: because and it's it's something we can't necessarily know conclusively

445
00:25:02,600 --> 00:25:06,000
Speaker 2: because it's internal to the offender. But he doesn't want

446
00:25:06,040 --> 00:25:08,280
Speaker 2: to see himself in the mirror. You know, and so

447
00:25:09,359 --> 00:25:11,760
Speaker 2: is he going through the house before he kills the

448
00:25:11,760 --> 00:25:13,919
Speaker 2: family and covering up the mirrors or does he do

449
00:25:14,080 --> 00:25:18,280
Speaker 2: this afterwards, But most certainly he's taking the time to

450
00:25:18,359 --> 00:25:23,240
Speaker 2: prevent visibility from outsiders, you know, looking into the house,

451
00:25:23,880 --> 00:25:28,120
Speaker 2: and then the covering up the moors versus Ena and Lina,

452
00:25:28,359 --> 00:25:31,840
Speaker 2: the two non family members. I mean, he sounds like

453
00:25:32,000 --> 00:25:35,760
Speaker 2: he's closely associated with the moors and then the neighbors

454
00:25:35,760 --> 00:25:38,359
Speaker 2: were somebody that he wasn't as closely attached to.

455
00:25:38,680 --> 00:25:41,320
Speaker 1: One interesting note I was just reading about, according to

456
00:25:42,320 --> 00:25:44,880
Speaker 1: you know, a website which is a murder house, which

457
00:25:44,920 --> 00:25:47,720
Speaker 1: is you know, dedicated to the Veliska murders. They say

458
00:25:47,760 --> 00:25:51,240
Speaker 1: that this was actually the sewing room where Lina and

459
00:25:51,440 --> 00:25:53,679
Speaker 1: Ena were and they just kind of converted it on

460
00:25:53,720 --> 00:25:56,120
Speaker 1: the fly to a guest room and put a twin

461
00:25:56,160 --> 00:25:57,800
Speaker 1: bed down there so they could spend the night. So

462
00:25:57,880 --> 00:26:01,399
Speaker 1: this was not a normal one a normal room. Also

463
00:26:01,520 --> 00:26:05,119
Speaker 1: the note that this was Josiah's axe, so this was

464
00:26:05,119 --> 00:26:08,280
Speaker 1: not something that was brought. It was found there. And

465
00:26:08,359 --> 00:26:10,919
Speaker 1: I still don't understand people who do that, who just

466
00:26:11,080 --> 00:26:13,760
Speaker 1: discover it, you know, it's like, let's just see what

467
00:26:13,800 --> 00:26:16,000
Speaker 1: they have and I'll use whatever they.

468
00:26:15,880 --> 00:26:19,000
Speaker 2: Have there, you know. But the use of a weapon

469
00:26:19,000 --> 00:26:21,680
Speaker 2: inside the victim's house, whether it be an axe, whether

470
00:26:21,760 --> 00:26:24,879
Speaker 2: it be a baseball bat, a knife out of the

471
00:26:24,960 --> 00:26:30,120
Speaker 2: kitchen drawer, you know, drape recordage, you know, from inside

472
00:26:30,160 --> 00:26:32,840
Speaker 2: the house. That is a very very common thing.

473
00:26:33,400 --> 00:26:37,280
Speaker 1: Okay, let's go ahead and move on. Now we're essentially done,

474
00:26:37,640 --> 00:26:40,879
Speaker 1: I think talking about the scene until we get a

475
00:26:40,920 --> 00:26:45,919
Speaker 1: little bit more information. So the town of Aliska learns

476
00:26:45,920 --> 00:26:48,919
Speaker 1: all about this, and of course it's devastating. By about

477
00:26:48,960 --> 00:26:53,280
Speaker 1: eight forty that morning, the officials tell everybody in town

478
00:26:53,320 --> 00:26:56,760
Speaker 1: about this. Crowds are starting to form, and just before

479
00:26:56,920 --> 00:27:00,200
Speaker 1: nine o'clock we've got some doctors who are wrong I've

480
00:27:00,480 --> 00:27:04,080
Speaker 1: as well as a reverend who is the Moore's Presbyterian minister.

481
00:27:04,280 --> 00:27:07,280
Speaker 1: So all these people show up and you know, they're

482
00:27:07,320 --> 00:27:10,840
Speaker 1: kind of surrounding the house. So just as a reminder,

483
00:27:11,560 --> 00:27:15,600
Speaker 1: the woman who sounded the alarm on this to begin with,

484
00:27:16,000 --> 00:27:19,240
Speaker 1: that was about an hour and ten minutes.

485
00:27:19,040 --> 00:27:21,000
Speaker 2: Before seven thirty, is what you said.

486
00:27:20,840 --> 00:27:22,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean it's it's this is pretty wild. Because

487
00:27:22,960 --> 00:27:27,880
Speaker 1: you've got seven thirty. Mary Peckham says something's wrong. Eight

488
00:27:27,880 --> 00:27:32,360
Speaker 1: point fifteen ross the cousin or the relative arrives eight thirty,

489
00:27:33,080 --> 00:27:36,800
Speaker 1: the Marshal of Eliscus shows up Hank, and now it

490
00:27:36,880 --> 00:27:40,560
Speaker 1: is eight forty in the town knows. So that's pretty fast.

491
00:27:40,680 --> 00:27:42,879
Speaker 1: I mean, it's good because I'm sure people needed to

492
00:27:42,920 --> 00:27:45,760
Speaker 1: be alerted that there's an axe murderer out there somewhere.

493
00:27:45,800 --> 00:27:47,359
Speaker 1: But this is probably not going to be great for

494
00:27:47,400 --> 00:27:48,040
Speaker 1: the crime scene.

495
00:27:48,040 --> 00:27:51,000
Speaker 2: I have to assume no, you know, hopefully they're kept

496
00:27:51,040 --> 00:27:53,600
Speaker 2: outside of the crime scene. But then how you know,

497
00:27:53,680 --> 00:27:56,639
Speaker 2: there's a reason we use barrier tape, crime scene tape,

498
00:27:57,000 --> 00:27:59,120
Speaker 2: you know, and we want to make the crime scene

499
00:27:59,119 --> 00:28:03,239
Speaker 2: as big as possible because oftentimes we'll find evidence, you know,

500
00:28:03,720 --> 00:28:08,000
Speaker 2: two three houses away, you know, from shoe impressions or

501
00:28:08,040 --> 00:28:10,159
Speaker 2: you know, of course with shootings, we could potentially have

502
00:28:10,240 --> 00:28:13,320
Speaker 2: firearms evidence. And the last thing we want our crowds

503
00:28:13,359 --> 00:28:16,439
Speaker 2: gathering where that evidence is at. And then in this

504
00:28:16,600 --> 00:28:19,000
Speaker 2: day and age, you know, the one thing that can

505
00:28:19,119 --> 00:28:24,680
Speaker 2: keep the press away is a crime scene barrier. Press

506
00:28:24,720 --> 00:28:27,639
Speaker 2: cannot cross crime scene barriers. So if we want to

507
00:28:27,680 --> 00:28:31,560
Speaker 2: prevent the cameras from you know, capturing and broadcasting aspects

508
00:28:31,560 --> 00:28:34,320
Speaker 2: of the crime, either for sensitivity to the victims or

509
00:28:34,359 --> 00:28:37,920
Speaker 2: for details that somebody could use, you know, when they

510
00:28:37,960 --> 00:28:40,640
Speaker 2: see it on TV. You know, that's what we do,

511
00:28:40,760 --> 00:28:42,760
Speaker 2: is we set up the crime scene tape. But in

512
00:28:42,840 --> 00:28:46,880
Speaker 2: nineteen twelve in Valeska, Yeah, chances are they've probably got

513
00:28:46,920 --> 00:28:49,400
Speaker 2: a crowd knowing about in the yard of this house

514
00:28:49,480 --> 00:28:52,440
Speaker 2: and there could be critical evidence that is being trampled on.

515
00:28:52,760 --> 00:28:54,520
Speaker 1: You're right, why don't we look at some photos real

516
00:28:54,600 --> 00:28:57,160
Speaker 1: quick before I forget and I'm just going to kind

517
00:28:57,160 --> 00:28:58,960
Speaker 1: of shoot them to you all at once. So look

518
00:28:59,000 --> 00:28:59,960
Speaker 1: at the file icen.

519
00:29:00,840 --> 00:29:05,120
Speaker 2: So, yeah, So this first first photo, it's very artistic

520
00:29:05,240 --> 00:29:08,720
Speaker 2: actually is on the left side, it's black and white.

521
00:29:08,720 --> 00:29:11,840
Speaker 2: On the left side is a long handled axe. The

522
00:29:11,880 --> 00:29:15,000
Speaker 2: axe head is resting I'm assuming, like let's say on

523
00:29:15,040 --> 00:29:18,600
Speaker 2: a table top, and then it's it's being held upright

524
00:29:19,320 --> 00:29:22,640
Speaker 2: by you know, a cord that is tied around the

525
00:29:22,920 --> 00:29:25,920
Speaker 2: end of the handle and is probably secured you know,

526
00:29:26,200 --> 00:29:28,600
Speaker 2: at some point higher up. You know. The the axe

527
00:29:28,600 --> 00:29:32,440
Speaker 2: head itself is I mean, this is just a standard

528
00:29:32,840 --> 00:29:35,360
Speaker 2: I don't know the names of the different types of axes.

529
00:29:35,960 --> 00:29:39,360
Speaker 2: This is just a standard axe head. It has a

530
00:29:39,400 --> 00:29:43,120
Speaker 2: blunt end, and then I would say that the sharp

531
00:29:43,240 --> 00:29:48,360
Speaker 2: working edge is you know, maybe I'm guessing because there's

532
00:29:48,400 --> 00:29:53,640
Speaker 2: no scale, but I'm probably roughly three to four inches long.

533
00:29:54,240 --> 00:29:58,840
Speaker 2: And then along the handle I can see dark staining,

534
00:29:59,200 --> 00:30:03,040
Speaker 2: which I'm present zooming is probably blood staining. I see,

535
00:30:03,200 --> 00:30:05,560
Speaker 2: you know, a couple of spots that potentially could take

536
00:30:05,680 --> 00:30:08,480
Speaker 2: you know, look like you know, bloody the finger, the

537
00:30:08,520 --> 00:30:12,360
Speaker 2: tip of the fingerpads touching this. This axe handle does

538
00:30:12,400 --> 00:30:14,720
Speaker 2: look like there may be some blood spat or closer

539
00:30:14,720 --> 00:30:17,840
Speaker 2: to the axe head, as well as large you know,

540
00:30:18,080 --> 00:30:21,640
Speaker 2: saturated area blood up towards the head. But the head

541
00:30:21,680 --> 00:30:23,640
Speaker 2: is so dark I can't make out any type of

542
00:30:23,680 --> 00:30:27,160
Speaker 2: staining on it. It's not like a brand new axis

543
00:30:27,160 --> 00:30:30,800
Speaker 2: axis has been used. The working edge, the sharp edge,

544
00:30:31,840 --> 00:30:34,440
Speaker 2: looks like it's got gouges in it, you know. So

545
00:30:34,520 --> 00:30:36,920
Speaker 2: this is this is an axe that has you know,

546
00:30:37,480 --> 00:30:39,840
Speaker 2: somebody didn't just pick it up from a hardware store.

547
00:30:40,000 --> 00:30:42,360
Speaker 1: And this is much longer than I would have thought.

548
00:30:42,440 --> 00:30:44,760
Speaker 1: I mean, I used axes at my dad's house. This

549
00:30:44,800 --> 00:30:46,880
Speaker 1: would be good for chopping wood. I'm used to I

550
00:30:46,880 --> 00:30:49,600
Speaker 1: guess hatchets, but this seems unwieldy to me. And now

551
00:30:49,640 --> 00:30:51,720
Speaker 1: I know how easily it was to hit the ceiling

552
00:30:52,320 --> 00:30:54,280
Speaker 1: in a you know, in a room that's only got

553
00:30:54,280 --> 00:30:55,480
Speaker 1: seven foot high ceilings.

554
00:30:55,600 --> 00:30:58,080
Speaker 2: No, you know, and that's that's just part of doing

555
00:30:58,160 --> 00:31:00,560
Speaker 2: like a crime scene reconstruction is taking look at the

556
00:31:00,560 --> 00:31:03,680
Speaker 2: physical space. You know, if somebody swinging a baseball batter

557
00:31:03,720 --> 00:31:06,280
Speaker 2: or swinging an axe of this length, you know, there's

558
00:31:06,360 --> 00:31:09,400
Speaker 2: only so many ways that you can do it and

559
00:31:09,480 --> 00:31:13,080
Speaker 2: be effective in terms of generating the energy. And so

560
00:31:13,200 --> 00:31:16,560
Speaker 2: this offender is at least for some of the blows,

561
00:31:16,600 --> 00:31:20,600
Speaker 2: is swinging the axe probably directly overhead, like if you

562
00:31:20,680 --> 00:31:24,200
Speaker 2: were chopping wood, and is striking the ceiling and putting

563
00:31:24,240 --> 00:31:26,800
Speaker 2: the defects in the ceiling. And then next to the

564
00:31:26,840 --> 00:31:30,360
Speaker 2: axe on this table, it looks like there's you know,

565
00:31:30,400 --> 00:31:34,520
Speaker 2: the lamp you know that was probably present maybe illuminating

566
00:31:35,160 --> 00:31:40,360
Speaker 2: Lina's lower body than the next photograph.

567
00:31:40,560 --> 00:31:43,520
Speaker 1: So you're looking at the mirror that's covered if you

568
00:31:43,560 --> 00:31:44,680
Speaker 1: look on the right hand side.

569
00:31:44,800 --> 00:31:48,720
Speaker 2: Okay, so it appears that there's a set of drawers

570
00:31:48,760 --> 00:31:51,920
Speaker 2: that has a mirror on top of it, and it

571
00:31:52,000 --> 00:31:56,120
Speaker 2: looks like there's something akin to a drape or I

572
00:31:56,160 --> 00:31:59,560
Speaker 2: don't know, like a trench jacket or something that maybe

573
00:31:59,600 --> 00:32:02,320
Speaker 2: a kurt I don't know, Yeah, you know, but that

574
00:32:02,920 --> 00:32:06,520
Speaker 2: like I mentioned before, that is a very significant behavior.

575
00:32:06,560 --> 00:32:10,719
Speaker 2: The offender is not wanting to see himself in the mirror,

576
00:32:10,840 --> 00:32:13,080
Speaker 2: you know, and and my you know, off the top

577
00:32:13,120 --> 00:32:16,200
Speaker 2: of my head, I'm thinking, as he's walking around, maybe

578
00:32:16,200 --> 00:32:18,320
Speaker 2: he's already committed the crime and he's thinking, oh, you're

579
00:32:18,360 --> 00:32:20,320
Speaker 2: a piece of shit, and you know, he doesn't want

580
00:32:20,360 --> 00:32:22,920
Speaker 2: to have to just keep reminding himself of what a

581
00:32:22,920 --> 00:32:23,720
Speaker 2: piece of shit he is.

582
00:32:24,240 --> 00:32:27,760
Speaker 1: Mm hmmmmm. Man, you don't use the word shit lightly

583
00:32:27,800 --> 00:32:30,840
Speaker 1: on this show, so oh you really must, you really

584
00:32:30,880 --> 00:32:32,600
Speaker 1: must want to emphasize that.

585
00:32:32,720 --> 00:32:35,680
Speaker 2: Yep. Well yeah, well, I mean he's killed you know,

586
00:32:35,880 --> 00:32:39,560
Speaker 2: eight including six kids. This is you know, so I

587
00:32:39,600 --> 00:32:40,959
Speaker 2: mean you don't get worse than that.

588
00:32:41,360 --> 00:32:43,680
Speaker 1: And then the houses check out the house, it's two

589
00:32:43,680 --> 00:32:44,680
Speaker 1: different angles.

590
00:32:44,800 --> 00:32:48,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, so these, yeah, two different advantage points of the house.

591
00:32:49,200 --> 00:32:54,120
Speaker 2: It's a very simple, modest looking house. I'm looking at.

592
00:32:54,160 --> 00:32:56,800
Speaker 2: The first picture is from the front. It appears there's

593
00:32:57,120 --> 00:32:59,720
Speaker 2: a front porch in the front door, and then obviously

594
00:32:59,760 --> 00:33:03,080
Speaker 2: there's room to the right with the window, but that

595
00:33:03,240 --> 00:33:05,880
Speaker 2: part of the house is just single story. And then

596
00:33:05,960 --> 00:33:08,920
Speaker 2: to the left, which I'm assuming is where like the

597
00:33:08,960 --> 00:33:12,720
Speaker 2: guest bedroom, and then the upstairs bedrooms are is showing

598
00:33:12,760 --> 00:33:17,800
Speaker 2: the two story house. The shades are drawn at least

599
00:33:17,840 --> 00:33:19,840
Speaker 2: in the windows on that I can see on the

600
00:33:19,920 --> 00:33:24,680
Speaker 2: left side, including the upstairs windows shades, you know. Did

601
00:33:24,720 --> 00:33:26,840
Speaker 2: the offender do that or is that just you know,

602
00:33:26,960 --> 00:33:29,880
Speaker 2: when the moors go to bed, they draw the shades,

603
00:33:30,240 --> 00:33:32,640
Speaker 2: you know, So that would be part of the interview

604
00:33:32,680 --> 00:33:37,720
Speaker 2: process to determine what the victimologies the victim's habits are.

605
00:33:38,520 --> 00:33:42,640
Speaker 2: And then the other elevation photograph of the other elevation

606
00:33:42,720 --> 00:33:45,560
Speaker 2: of the house is more from the front left of

607
00:33:45,600 --> 00:33:48,760
Speaker 2: the house, and now you can see downstairs along the

608
00:33:48,840 --> 00:33:51,120
Speaker 2: side of the left side of the house. There's also

609
00:33:51,480 --> 00:33:53,840
Speaker 2: two other windows, and it doesn't appear that there's any

610
00:33:53,920 --> 00:33:56,120
Speaker 2: visibility into the house through those windows.

611
00:33:56,880 --> 00:33:59,800
Speaker 1: Now you see the markings because I thought this was interesting.

612
00:34:00,120 --> 00:34:02,920
Speaker 1: You can see that they're they're marking where these rooms are.

613
00:34:03,440 --> 00:34:07,080
Speaker 1: So the main room, the main bedroom is upper left,

614
00:34:07,120 --> 00:34:09,640
Speaker 1: I think where you see the little one, and then

615
00:34:10,320 --> 00:34:15,120
Speaker 1: number two is where the Lina and Ena were down below.

616
00:34:15,440 --> 00:34:18,400
Speaker 1: And then it looks like number three is where the

617
00:34:18,480 --> 00:34:21,960
Speaker 1: kind of interesting shaped windows are facing the street, and

618
00:34:21,960 --> 00:34:22,759
Speaker 1: that's where the kids are.

619
00:34:23,239 --> 00:34:25,839
Speaker 2: Sure, you know, and I would say, you know in

620
00:34:25,920 --> 00:34:29,560
Speaker 2: terms of the sequence, Let's say the offender because I

621
00:34:30,080 --> 00:34:34,200
Speaker 2: think the moors because of them being covered. I think

622
00:34:34,239 --> 00:34:36,799
Speaker 2: the moors were the primary target at that and the

623
00:34:36,840 --> 00:34:40,640
Speaker 2: offender has some sort of connection to them and may

624
00:34:40,640 --> 00:34:44,319
Speaker 2: have been completely oblivious to Ena and Lina being in

625
00:34:44,360 --> 00:34:48,120
Speaker 2: that downstairs back bedroom. And it's not until you know,

626
00:34:48,160 --> 00:34:50,400
Speaker 2: he goes up and kills the more family and comes

627
00:34:50,440 --> 00:34:52,600
Speaker 2: down and he's going through the house trying to you know,

628
00:34:52,719 --> 00:34:56,480
Speaker 2: set up you know, the shades and the coverings of

629
00:34:56,560 --> 00:34:59,920
Speaker 2: the mirrors and stuff. He discovers Ena and Lina still asleep,

630
00:35:00,600 --> 00:35:03,400
Speaker 2: and now he kills them, and he sectually assaults Lena

631
00:35:03,640 --> 00:35:06,439
Speaker 2: and then ends up eventually, you know, leaving the house.

632
00:35:06,480 --> 00:35:09,320
Speaker 2: So there's instead of killing them because they're on the

633
00:35:09,600 --> 00:35:13,240
Speaker 2: first floor, that he kills Ena and Lena first, running

634
00:35:13,280 --> 00:35:15,920
Speaker 2: across them, wandering around the first floor, and then goes

635
00:35:15,960 --> 00:35:20,120
Speaker 2: up and kills the moors. That's one possibility. The other possibility,

636
00:35:20,160 --> 00:35:21,960
Speaker 2: the reverse is also possible.

637
00:35:22,120 --> 00:35:24,680
Speaker 1: Well, let's go through who shows up to this house

638
00:35:24,719 --> 00:35:28,080
Speaker 1: and what their specialties are. We've got four doctors who

639
00:35:28,120 --> 00:35:31,920
Speaker 1: are coming. We also have the Presbyterian minister I mentioned,

640
00:35:32,600 --> 00:35:36,920
Speaker 1: and so everybody's there and the doctors are searching around,

641
00:35:37,000 --> 00:35:41,560
Speaker 1: and they find bloody long underwear under the bed of

642
00:35:41,600 --> 00:35:45,799
Speaker 1: the guest room downstairs where Lena and Ena are. It

643
00:35:45,840 --> 00:35:49,040
Speaker 1: had been used hastily to wipe the murder weapon and

644
00:35:49,080 --> 00:35:52,120
Speaker 1: the killer's hands clean. I don't know how they would

645
00:35:52,120 --> 00:35:54,400
Speaker 1: have known that, but you know, that's what they say.

646
00:35:54,719 --> 00:35:57,000
Speaker 1: There are still traces of blood and hair on the

647
00:35:57,040 --> 00:36:00,880
Speaker 1: axe's handle, and next to the axe they discover a

648
00:36:00,960 --> 00:36:05,520
Speaker 1: hunk of bacon weighing four pounds and measuring six by

649
00:36:05,600 --> 00:36:09,239
Speaker 1: twelve inches. It is wrapped in a flour sack or

650
00:36:09,280 --> 00:36:12,400
Speaker 1: a cheese cloth. And I have more details about food

651
00:36:12,440 --> 00:36:13,040
Speaker 1: in the kitchen.

652
00:36:13,360 --> 00:36:16,680
Speaker 2: Okay, Now this long underwear, did they determine was that

653
00:36:16,800 --> 00:36:18,719
Speaker 2: foreign to the house or is that just something that

654
00:36:18,760 --> 00:36:21,800
Speaker 2: the offender accessed from a closet or a drawer.

655
00:36:21,960 --> 00:36:23,799
Speaker 1: I think he grabbed it, Okay.

656
00:36:23,600 --> 00:36:26,320
Speaker 2: So he's just using that as a as a cleanup towel,

657
00:36:26,360 --> 00:36:28,920
Speaker 2: I believe. So. Yeah, which you know, in this day

658
00:36:28,920 --> 00:36:31,239
Speaker 2: and age with modern forensics, that's huge. You know, we

659
00:36:31,280 --> 00:36:34,239
Speaker 2: potentially could get his DNA just from him using that

660
00:36:34,440 --> 00:36:36,480
Speaker 2: in that manner. Yeah, I'm not sure what to make

661
00:36:36,520 --> 00:36:39,839
Speaker 2: about this, this hunk of bacon. So it sounds like that.

662
00:36:39,840 --> 00:36:43,160
Speaker 2: There's other disturbances to food in the kitchen, so let's

663
00:36:43,160 --> 00:36:43,799
Speaker 2: hear about that.

664
00:36:44,640 --> 00:36:47,279
Speaker 1: In the kitchen, the food is neatly laid out on

665
00:36:47,360 --> 00:36:51,120
Speaker 1: the table, a bowl of bloody water suggests that the

666
00:36:51,200 --> 00:36:55,400
Speaker 1: killer had washed himself before exiting the house, and in

667
00:36:55,440 --> 00:36:59,360
Speaker 1: the ice box on the kitchen floor is another slab

668
00:36:59,440 --> 00:37:02,160
Speaker 1: of bacon. So it sounded to me, I don't know

669
00:37:02,200 --> 00:37:04,440
Speaker 1: if you agree with this or not, like this was

670
00:37:04,480 --> 00:37:07,000
Speaker 1: not their meal, the Moor's meal, because they were already

671
00:37:07,040 --> 00:37:09,279
Speaker 1: in bed and there's no way missus Moore would have

672
00:37:09,360 --> 00:37:13,040
Speaker 1: left out perfectly good food laying around, especially bacon. So

673
00:37:13,120 --> 00:37:14,959
Speaker 1: he did it? Is that what you would think?

674
00:37:15,880 --> 00:37:20,319
Speaker 2: Yet you know this this also could explain why all

675
00:37:20,360 --> 00:37:26,759
Speaker 2: the external windows to the house are covered. Is he's

676
00:37:26,800 --> 00:37:32,359
Speaker 2: spending time after he's killed the victims and is you know,

677
00:37:32,440 --> 00:37:36,480
Speaker 2: the practical aspect is he's hungry and so now he's

678
00:37:36,600 --> 00:37:41,600
Speaker 2: eating their food, he's cleaning up. You know, there's one

679
00:37:41,680 --> 00:37:45,160
Speaker 2: We know there's one oil lamp on when the victims

680
00:37:45,160 --> 00:37:47,880
Speaker 2: are discovered in the guest room, but he may have

681
00:37:48,200 --> 00:37:50,719
Speaker 2: had another oil lamp on so he could see what

682
00:37:50,760 --> 00:37:53,080
Speaker 2: he's doing in the kitchen, you know, in order to

683
00:37:53,120 --> 00:37:56,200
Speaker 2: be able to eat, and he doesn't want you know,

684
00:37:56,360 --> 00:37:58,680
Speaker 2: people on the outside neighbors to see in the middle

685
00:37:58,719 --> 00:38:01,400
Speaker 2: of the night there's a light on it side, you know,

686
00:38:01,600 --> 00:38:04,719
Speaker 2: the Moor's house, because that would be suspicious, you know,

687
00:38:04,760 --> 00:38:07,759
Speaker 2: So that's maybe why he's going through and covering up

688
00:38:07,800 --> 00:38:10,880
Speaker 2: the external is still behaviorally, you know, there's a I

689
00:38:10,880 --> 00:38:13,600
Speaker 2: think there's a practical aspect that's now starting to come

690
00:38:13,640 --> 00:38:17,400
Speaker 2: to light about why the windows the shades are closed

691
00:38:17,400 --> 00:38:19,359
Speaker 2: and the door, the windows to the door have been

692
00:38:19,400 --> 00:38:22,799
Speaker 2: covered with the black skirt. That could be practical, you know,

693
00:38:23,239 --> 00:38:25,360
Speaker 2: But then the covering of the mirrors, the covering of

694
00:38:25,400 --> 00:38:28,719
Speaker 2: the Moor's heads, that's that's a behavioral thing. That's that's

695
00:38:28,760 --> 00:38:32,040
Speaker 2: a that's an act he's he's doing that is unnecessary

696
00:38:32,239 --> 00:38:35,839
Speaker 2: for the commission of the crime, or definitely for him

697
00:38:36,000 --> 00:38:39,799
Speaker 2: lingering in the house in order to possibly just just

698
00:38:39,840 --> 00:38:41,920
Speaker 2: to eat. I'd be interested to see how this this

699
00:38:42,080 --> 00:38:44,759
Speaker 2: food was neatly laid out on the table. Is there

700
00:38:45,320 --> 00:38:48,960
Speaker 2: something odd about it or is it just he's just

701
00:38:49,040 --> 00:38:52,080
Speaker 2: kind of laying it out and eating and leaving it

702
00:38:52,120 --> 00:38:54,560
Speaker 2: like that? Now, why is the bacon in the guest

703
00:38:54,640 --> 00:38:57,160
Speaker 2: room by the axe? You know, does he grab this

704
00:38:57,239 --> 00:38:59,520
Speaker 2: bacon like he's going to, you know, leave the house

705
00:38:59,560 --> 00:39:01,960
Speaker 2: with it, and sides against it. Who knows.

706
00:39:02,280 --> 00:39:05,640
Speaker 1: We have speculation, and I think it is really interesting speculation.

707
00:39:05,800 --> 00:39:08,240
Speaker 1: So you tell me what you think about these doctors

708
00:39:08,280 --> 00:39:11,440
Speaker 1: from nineteen twelve who are coming up with some stuff.

709
00:39:11,560 --> 00:39:16,399
Speaker 1: This is not controversial, Rigermortez. They think based on that

710
00:39:16,560 --> 00:39:19,480
Speaker 1: and the visual inspection of how the blood had coagulated,

711
00:39:19,719 --> 00:39:23,759
Speaker 1: they're guessing that they were murdered around midnight, which is,

712
00:39:23,840 --> 00:39:26,879
Speaker 1: you know, eight to nine hours ago they went to sleep,

713
00:39:26,920 --> 00:39:29,120
Speaker 1: and then you know, the killer had as many hours

714
00:39:29,120 --> 00:39:32,520
Speaker 1: as he wanted essentially, so one hundred people showed up,

715
00:39:32,640 --> 00:39:36,040
Speaker 1: of course, because they made the announcement be careful, there's

716
00:39:36,040 --> 00:39:38,400
Speaker 1: an axe murderer out there. They take tours of the

717
00:39:38,440 --> 00:39:41,680
Speaker 1: house while this investigation is going on. They pulled down

718
00:39:41,719 --> 00:39:45,120
Speaker 1: the window blinds, they break the chimney of the one

719
00:39:45,160 --> 00:39:48,040
Speaker 1: of the oil lamps that's in the house. They carry

720
00:39:48,080 --> 00:39:53,480
Speaker 1: the axe from room to room, and someone actually stole

721
00:39:53,520 --> 00:39:56,600
Speaker 1: a piece of Josiah's skull, which was about the size

722
00:39:56,600 --> 00:40:00,000
Speaker 1: of a cigarette package. Who the hell secured this crime?

723
00:40:00,400 --> 00:40:03,640
Speaker 1: I guess it is that an experienced Marshall flipp and Hank.

724
00:40:03,880 --> 00:40:05,080
Speaker 1: I mean, this is awful.

725
00:40:05,520 --> 00:40:09,880
Speaker 2: This crime scene is so contaminated that it's possible that

726
00:40:10,000 --> 00:40:12,720
Speaker 2: any evidence that could have been left by the offender

727
00:40:12,719 --> 00:40:17,319
Speaker 2: to identify the offender, you know, even with modern technology,

728
00:40:17,400 --> 00:40:20,120
Speaker 2: could have been just completely lost. You know, this is

729
00:40:20,760 --> 00:40:23,080
Speaker 2: it's abhorrent in terms of how this crime scene is

730
00:40:23,120 --> 00:40:26,640
Speaker 2: being treated, and it's abhorrent how these victims are being

731
00:40:26,719 --> 00:40:28,240
Speaker 2: exposed to the public.

732
00:40:29,120 --> 00:40:32,640
Speaker 1: Absolutely, by ten thirty so this is three hours after

733
00:40:33,160 --> 00:40:36,480
Speaker 1: Mary Peckham makes the discovery. By ten thirty am, the

734
00:40:36,520 --> 00:40:38,840
Speaker 1: crowd outside is so big that they call in the

735
00:40:38,920 --> 00:40:42,520
Speaker 1: National Guard to secure the crime scene. I mean, now

736
00:40:42,560 --> 00:40:44,680
Speaker 1: you know why this case has been talked about for

737
00:40:44,719 --> 00:40:46,759
Speaker 1: more than one hundred years. I mean, this was this

738
00:40:47,000 --> 00:40:51,960
Speaker 1: was traumatizing and titillating to everyone in this area when

739
00:40:52,000 --> 00:40:55,200
Speaker 1: this happened. Eight people in one house, six little kids,

740
00:40:55,640 --> 00:40:58,040
Speaker 1: a potential sexual assault. I mean, all of this was

741
00:40:58,360 --> 00:41:02,719
Speaker 1: pretty horrific. Luckily, the doctors plow their way through all

742
00:41:02,719 --> 00:41:05,839
Speaker 1: of this, and we have the county coroner who's there

743
00:41:06,160 --> 00:41:09,960
Speaker 1: and he says that there's a water basin on the

744
00:41:10,000 --> 00:41:13,640
Speaker 1: back porch where it should be in the kitchen, and

745
00:41:13,680 --> 00:41:18,239
Speaker 1: it's got dirty water in it, not regular water. So

746
00:41:19,239 --> 00:41:21,840
Speaker 1: there's the speculation that I think is interesting. They go

747
00:41:21,920 --> 00:41:25,000
Speaker 1: to the barn and the coroner says there is a

748
00:41:25,040 --> 00:41:28,400
Speaker 1: depression in some of the hay bales and he finds

749
00:41:28,440 --> 00:41:32,600
Speaker 1: a two inch not hole. So he's pretty sure that

750
00:41:32,680 --> 00:41:35,800
Speaker 1: this guy hid behind bayhils and you know, made a

751
00:41:35,840 --> 00:41:37,520
Speaker 1: little hole for him to be able to watch to

752
00:41:37,560 --> 00:41:40,000
Speaker 1: see when families came home. And I'll tell you about

753
00:41:40,000 --> 00:41:43,239
Speaker 1: their timeline also. But that's what he thinks happened. And

754
00:41:43,280 --> 00:41:46,760
Speaker 1: then what I think is he washed his hands maybe

755
00:41:47,040 --> 00:41:49,920
Speaker 1: before all of this happened, and that's why there's dirty

756
00:41:49,920 --> 00:41:50,799
Speaker 1: water outside.

757
00:41:51,120 --> 00:41:54,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think the you know, the offender lying in wait.

758
00:41:55,200 --> 00:41:57,959
Speaker 2: That adds up to me. You know this, he may

759
00:41:58,000 --> 00:42:01,880
Speaker 2: have found a moment he could sneak into this barn,

760
00:42:01,960 --> 00:42:04,279
Speaker 2: and it may have been much earlier in the day,

761
00:42:05,000 --> 00:42:08,160
Speaker 2: and this is where he's he's waiting for a long

762
00:42:08,239 --> 00:42:11,520
Speaker 2: period of time, and eventually he goes into the house

763
00:42:11,680 --> 00:42:15,200
Speaker 2: let's say it's around midnight or two am whenever, and

764
00:42:15,719 --> 00:42:20,200
Speaker 2: kills the victims. You know, now he's he's hungry. I

765
00:42:20,200 --> 00:42:22,720
Speaker 2: saw this with Golden State Killer. You know, he after

766
00:42:22,760 --> 00:42:25,560
Speaker 2: he would sectually assault some of his victims. He would

767
00:42:26,239 --> 00:42:29,680
Speaker 2: raid the refrigerator and grab food and course light and

768
00:42:29,719 --> 00:42:31,840
Speaker 2: go out on the back you know, the back porch

769
00:42:31,880 --> 00:42:34,160
Speaker 2: and hang out there. And you know there's a component

770
00:42:34,239 --> 00:42:36,920
Speaker 2: of for that type of predator. You know, this is

771
00:42:36,960 --> 00:42:40,400
Speaker 2: power and control, exerting power control or the victim's domain.

772
00:42:40,960 --> 00:42:43,520
Speaker 2: But there's a practical aspect. If you're out prowling all night,

773
00:42:43,560 --> 00:42:47,520
Speaker 2: you get hungry, and now once you've kind of gotten

774
00:42:47,560 --> 00:42:49,960
Speaker 2: through the excitement of the type of crime you've wanted

775
00:42:49,960 --> 00:42:52,799
Speaker 2: to commit, you are, you know, going, well, there's food here,

776
00:42:52,800 --> 00:42:55,399
Speaker 2: I'm gonna eat some of the food. I think that's

777
00:42:55,440 --> 00:42:57,560
Speaker 2: what's going on with this offender. He's lying in wait

778
00:42:57,600 --> 00:42:59,959
Speaker 2: and potentially light and wait for a long period of time,

779
00:43:00,200 --> 00:43:02,360
Speaker 2: goes in and kills the family, and now he eats.

780
00:43:02,680 --> 00:43:05,080
Speaker 1: Well, let's talk about their timeline, because maybe that'll give

781
00:43:05,120 --> 00:43:07,319
Speaker 1: you some clues on who might have done this, whether

782
00:43:07,440 --> 00:43:10,880
Speaker 1: this was opportunity or he was stalking them actively or whatever.

783
00:43:11,520 --> 00:43:14,480
Speaker 1: So you'll remember the day before was a Sunday. The

784
00:43:14,520 --> 00:43:18,719
Speaker 1: Moors were very religious. Josiah ran a successful franchise of

785
00:43:18,760 --> 00:43:21,960
Speaker 1: the John Deere plow company. John Deere was around back then.

786
00:43:22,520 --> 00:43:25,879
Speaker 1: Sarah was really heavily involved in the Presbyterian Church where

787
00:43:25,880 --> 00:43:29,840
Speaker 1: the minister came from the day before. They spent the

788
00:43:29,920 --> 00:43:33,040
Speaker 1: day attending at an eleven AM service at the church.

789
00:43:33,400 --> 00:43:36,760
Speaker 1: They were also getting ready for the church's annual Children's

790
00:43:36,840 --> 00:43:40,839
Speaker 1: Day program. They were socializing with family, so two PM

791
00:43:40,880 --> 00:43:45,439
Speaker 1: to four pm, Sarah and the minister's wife and other

792
00:43:45,520 --> 00:43:49,080
Speaker 1: women church goers led the rehearsal for this program I

793
00:43:49,120 --> 00:43:51,600
Speaker 1: told you about with kids. They were celebrating the final

794
00:43:52,000 --> 00:43:55,560
Speaker 1: day of Sunday school. Four point thirty comes and the

795
00:43:55,560 --> 00:43:59,640
Speaker 1: more family visited Josiah's parents. They go back to church

796
00:43:59,719 --> 00:44:03,360
Speaker 1: at seven thirty. That night, there's an eight o'clock program

797
00:44:03,400 --> 00:44:05,640
Speaker 1: with the singing that we were talking about. Over the

798
00:44:05,680 --> 00:44:08,880
Speaker 1: course of the next hour, the children are doing skits

799
00:44:09,000 --> 00:44:12,560
Speaker 1: and all kinds of stuff and reciting Bible passages. At

800
00:44:12,560 --> 00:44:15,239
Speaker 1: the end of the evening, the parents and children have

801
00:44:15,480 --> 00:44:18,120
Speaker 1: milk and cookies. Sounds like a really great day for

802
00:44:18,160 --> 00:44:22,640
Speaker 1: the Moors. And earlier in the day they had allowed

803
00:44:22,880 --> 00:44:26,640
Speaker 1: Catherine's friends Lina and Ena to spend the night, so

804
00:44:27,040 --> 00:44:28,799
Speaker 1: you know, they just said, can this happen? And they

805
00:44:28,800 --> 00:44:32,400
Speaker 1: said sure. The mother was seven months pregnant, So Lena

806
00:44:32,520 --> 00:44:36,000
Speaker 1: and ENA's mother was seven months pregnant and she was

807
00:44:36,040 --> 00:44:37,920
Speaker 1: going to go and stay, but she just wasn't going

808
00:44:38,000 --> 00:44:40,200
Speaker 1: to be able to. She didn't feel like it. The

809
00:44:40,320 --> 00:44:43,200
Speaker 1: girls were nervous to walk over a mile from the

810
00:44:43,320 --> 00:44:46,680
Speaker 1: church to their grandmother's house in the dark, and that's

811
00:44:46,719 --> 00:44:49,200
Speaker 1: why they decided to try to spend the night at

812
00:44:49,239 --> 00:44:52,520
Speaker 1: the friend's house, which was closer. They were only three

813
00:44:52,520 --> 00:44:56,280
Speaker 1: blocks away from the church. So final part of this timeline,

814
00:44:56,640 --> 00:45:01,080
Speaker 1: between ninety five pm and ten pm goes home. So

815
00:45:01,480 --> 00:45:04,960
Speaker 1: the church is three blocks from the moor's house and

816
00:45:05,000 --> 00:45:08,800
Speaker 1: the aid of these people walk you know, over, including

817
00:45:08,840 --> 00:45:10,680
Speaker 1: the two little girls who weren't meant to be there

818
00:45:10,800 --> 00:45:14,040
Speaker 1: at all. And that's the timeline. Lots of church. So

819
00:45:14,120 --> 00:45:16,160
Speaker 1: what do you think about that it would be easy

820
00:45:16,200 --> 00:45:18,080
Speaker 1: for a stranger to kind of target them.

821
00:45:18,600 --> 00:45:22,560
Speaker 2: I think what strikes me is that basically everybody is

822
00:45:23,080 --> 00:45:26,839
Speaker 2: away from the house all a Sunday until they come

823
00:45:26,880 --> 00:45:28,560
Speaker 2: home roughly ten o'clock at night.

824
00:45:28,680 --> 00:45:31,520
Speaker 1: Right, their first thing I think was at eleven am

825
00:45:31,600 --> 00:45:33,480
Speaker 1: church service, three blocks away from the house.

826
00:45:33,640 --> 00:45:37,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, so you know this is where the offender lying

827
00:45:37,680 --> 00:45:39,800
Speaker 2: in wait in the barn. I mean, he could have

828
00:45:40,160 --> 00:45:43,319
Speaker 2: you know, wandered onto this property. You know, he has

829
00:45:43,440 --> 00:45:46,640
Speaker 2: to worry about, you know, other witnesses like Mary across

830
00:45:46,680 --> 00:45:50,240
Speaker 2: the street. But he doesn't have to worry about anybody

831
00:45:50,320 --> 00:45:53,200
Speaker 2: inside the house seeing him because nobody's home. So why

832
00:45:53,960 --> 00:45:57,960
Speaker 2: why does he wait in the barn versus you know,

833
00:45:58,000 --> 00:46:03,880
Speaker 2: going inside house itself. So he's purposely making a decision.

834
00:46:04,360 --> 00:46:06,759
Speaker 2: And then I think, what's you know, what's popping into

835
00:46:06,760 --> 00:46:08,680
Speaker 2: my head right now is Okay, how's he getting into

836
00:46:08,719 --> 00:46:11,719
Speaker 2: the house while the family's asleep? But did they routinely

837
00:46:11,760 --> 00:46:14,560
Speaker 2: lock the door or did they just leave the door unlocked?

838
00:46:14,600 --> 00:46:18,080
Speaker 2: Which nineteen twelve and this type of town, chances are

839
00:46:18,280 --> 00:46:20,080
Speaker 2: the door was unlocked. That's my guess.

840
00:46:20,239 --> 00:46:22,600
Speaker 1: Oh you know what, No, I just went back and

841
00:46:22,640 --> 00:46:26,280
Speaker 1: looked Ross Moore. The relative got into the house using

842
00:46:26,320 --> 00:46:30,440
Speaker 1: a key. Now, we don't know if the offender locked

843
00:46:30,440 --> 00:46:33,560
Speaker 1: the doors after he left, but I mean it sounds

844
00:46:33,600 --> 00:46:36,000
Speaker 1: like they were trying all the doors, so I don't know.

845
00:46:36,280 --> 00:46:40,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, let's say all the doors are locked when Ross

846
00:46:40,160 --> 00:46:43,919
Speaker 2: is trying to get in, how does the offender lock

847
00:46:44,000 --> 00:46:46,520
Speaker 2: the door behind him? You know, And that's dependent upon

848
00:46:46,520 --> 00:46:49,600
Speaker 2: the locking mechanism. But if the offender does he take

849
00:46:49,680 --> 00:46:53,040
Speaker 2: a family member's key like Josiah's keyring and then now

850
00:46:53,160 --> 00:46:55,719
Speaker 2: is able to you know, lock the door on his

851
00:46:55,800 --> 00:46:58,680
Speaker 2: way out. That's that's possibility, and so i'd be looking

852
00:46:58,719 --> 00:47:01,720
Speaker 2: for you know, any and he sets the missing keys,

853
00:47:01,840 --> 00:47:04,239
Speaker 2: that would indicate that the offender did that. One of

854
00:47:04,280 --> 00:47:08,400
Speaker 2: the things. The offender is lying in wait in the

855
00:47:08,440 --> 00:47:13,320
Speaker 2: barn versus inside the house. I think a possible reason

856
00:47:13,640 --> 00:47:18,080
Speaker 2: for that is he doesn't want to confront the family

857
00:47:18,200 --> 00:47:21,759
Speaker 2: while they're still awake. He wants to ensure that they

858
00:47:21,800 --> 00:47:25,040
Speaker 2: are asleep. And this house is not a very big house,

859
00:47:25,120 --> 00:47:28,719
Speaker 2: so he probably could very easily be discovered if he,

860
00:47:29,000 --> 00:47:31,480
Speaker 2: you know, if he waited inside the house. So he

861
00:47:31,640 --> 00:47:34,680
Speaker 2: is deciding, Okay, I want to wait, and I need

862
00:47:34,680 --> 00:47:38,240
Speaker 2: to wait long enough to ensure that this family is asleep.

863
00:47:38,320 --> 00:47:41,480
Speaker 2: The family doesn't come home until ten o'clock at night,

864
00:47:43,000 --> 00:47:45,440
Speaker 2: and then I imagine with the young kids, you know,

865
00:47:45,480 --> 00:47:48,480
Speaker 2: they're going to bed right away, the parents are probably

866
00:47:48,480 --> 00:47:51,759
Speaker 2: going to bed, And he waits long enough to where

867
00:47:51,800 --> 00:47:54,680
Speaker 2: he's assured that, you know, he's not going to be

868
00:47:54,719 --> 00:47:58,440
Speaker 2: confronted by let's say Josiah, you know, because Josiah is

869
00:47:58,480 --> 00:48:02,160
Speaker 2: still awake. You know that I think is significant from

870
00:48:02,200 --> 00:48:05,000
Speaker 2: a kind of like, well, who is this offender. He

871
00:48:05,040 --> 00:48:08,719
Speaker 2: doesn't have the self confidence to confront this family while

872
00:48:08,719 --> 00:48:12,760
Speaker 2: they're still, while they're awake, you know, he basically wants

873
00:48:12,800 --> 00:48:15,680
Speaker 2: to ambush them while they're asleep. That's I mean, that's

874
00:48:15,760 --> 00:48:18,640
Speaker 2: very much a cowardly type of act, but it's also

875
00:48:18,680 --> 00:48:22,080
Speaker 2: a very practical one, especially when you have six kids

876
00:48:22,120 --> 00:48:24,640
Speaker 2: that you have to kind of, you know, manage, in

877
00:48:24,640 --> 00:48:26,800
Speaker 2: addition to the two adults as victims.

878
00:48:27,440 --> 00:48:31,759
Speaker 1: Okay, the county attorney shows up by eight thirty that night.

879
00:48:32,360 --> 00:48:35,600
Speaker 1: He brings a pair of bloodhounds. This is what the

880
00:48:35,600 --> 00:48:39,040
Speaker 1: bloodhounds do. They sniff the axe handle. They pull investigators

881
00:48:39,120 --> 00:48:42,320
Speaker 1: upstairs to the main bedroom. They go back down the stairs,

882
00:48:42,440 --> 00:48:45,360
Speaker 1: they go across the front lawn, they go down the street.

883
00:48:45,440 --> 00:48:48,200
Speaker 1: They stop in front of somebody's house. The guy's name

884
00:48:48,239 --> 00:48:52,080
Speaker 1: is Frank Fernando Jones, and he is a wealthy man

885
00:48:52,120 --> 00:48:55,200
Speaker 1: in town, and he is involved in this case. He's

886
00:48:55,239 --> 00:48:57,960
Speaker 1: known to the moors, which I mean everybody probably is

887
00:48:57,960 --> 00:49:02,200
Speaker 1: in this town. They go to war the Nodaway River,

888
00:49:02,719 --> 00:49:05,920
Speaker 1: which is about a mile south of Valliska, and there

889
00:49:06,040 --> 00:49:09,000
Speaker 1: is a mob of two thousand people. These keep getting

890
00:49:09,000 --> 00:49:11,719
Speaker 1: bigger and bigger. They have guns, and clubs and axes,

891
00:49:11,760 --> 00:49:14,200
Speaker 1: getting ready to beat the living shit out of whoever

892
00:49:14,400 --> 00:49:16,680
Speaker 1: these dogs point to and say he's the one who

893
00:49:16,680 --> 00:49:19,080
Speaker 1: did it. And at the river they lose the scent.

894
00:49:19,600 --> 00:49:22,000
Speaker 1: This is scary. I mean, this is like mob mentality

895
00:49:22,080 --> 00:49:22,479
Speaker 1: for sure.

896
00:49:22,760 --> 00:49:26,200
Speaker 2: Amazing dogs are amazing, you know, of course, bloodhounds are

897
00:49:26,239 --> 00:49:28,640
Speaker 2: amazing in terms of, you know, what they're able to

898
00:49:29,040 --> 00:49:33,000
Speaker 2: smell and how they can track. You know, this is

899
00:49:33,040 --> 00:49:39,600
Speaker 2: such a contaminated crime scene. You're now losing you know,

900
00:49:40,040 --> 00:49:42,920
Speaker 2: of course, the offender has touched the axe handle and

901
00:49:42,960 --> 00:49:45,719
Speaker 2: this is a I mean I've had this in in

902
00:49:45,760 --> 00:49:48,960
Speaker 2: a case with a baseball bat, you know, bludgeting with

903
00:49:48,960 --> 00:49:51,600
Speaker 2: a baseball bat, and the dogs you know, scent it

904
00:49:51,680 --> 00:49:55,359
Speaker 2: off of you know, the baseball, you know, basically a

905
00:49:55,440 --> 00:49:58,600
Speaker 2: swath of cloth that had gone across the handle of

906
00:49:58,640 --> 00:50:02,720
Speaker 2: this bat. And then they they start doing their centrail.

907
00:50:02,800 --> 00:50:06,560
Speaker 2: And this was a pristine crime scene. But it's kind

908
00:50:06,600 --> 00:50:09,880
Speaker 2: of hard to say or are they are they truly

909
00:50:09,960 --> 00:50:14,320
Speaker 2: on the offender's track itself, And that's my concern here,

910
00:50:14,520 --> 00:50:16,880
Speaker 2: especially with such a contaminated crime scene.

911
00:50:17,320 --> 00:50:20,520
Speaker 1: Well, speaking of contaminated crime scenes, I think the FBI

912
00:50:20,719 --> 00:50:22,840
Speaker 1: is pretty pissed off when they show up with a

913
00:50:22,840 --> 00:50:26,120
Speaker 1: fingerprint expert and the guy says, what am I supposed

914
00:50:26,160 --> 00:50:28,640
Speaker 1: to do? There have been hundreds of people who have

915
00:50:30,120 --> 00:50:32,120
Speaker 1: gone through this house. Technically it was a Bureau of

916
00:50:32,120 --> 00:50:35,840
Speaker 1: Investigation in nineteen twelve, but the special agent is irritated.

917
00:50:35,880 --> 00:50:38,440
Speaker 1: He came from Lovenworth, Kansas. Yeah, I mean, there's very

918
00:50:38,480 --> 00:50:40,960
Speaker 1: little he's going to be able to do at that point.

919
00:50:41,400 --> 00:50:43,319
Speaker 1: And that's just what's heartbreaking about a lot of the

920
00:50:43,360 --> 00:50:46,520
Speaker 1: cases that you and I talk about as not knowing

921
00:50:46,560 --> 00:50:49,319
Speaker 1: any better. And this probably still happens with people who

922
00:50:49,320 --> 00:50:51,640
Speaker 1: are inexperienced. I'm not even going to say in small

923
00:50:51,680 --> 00:50:55,680
Speaker 1: towns just in general, but to ruin a crime scene

924
00:50:55,760 --> 00:50:59,640
Speaker 1: by allowing people to come in and take mementos.

925
00:50:59,040 --> 00:51:03,359
Speaker 2: As just so, yeah, it's how you don't do it.

926
00:51:03,640 --> 00:51:05,960
Speaker 1: So this is the thing about this case. It, like

927
00:51:06,000 --> 00:51:11,120
Speaker 1: other serial killer cases, creates hysteria over a serial killer that,

928
00:51:11,200 --> 00:51:14,400
Speaker 1: of course, we haven't named a serial killer for sixty years.

929
00:51:14,640 --> 00:51:16,719
Speaker 1: That's not the phrase that they use. I guess it

930
00:51:16,719 --> 00:51:18,960
Speaker 1: would say multiple murderer is what I've always used for

931
00:51:19,000 --> 00:51:23,680
Speaker 1: the eighteen hundreds. So there is terror. Velliska becomes a

932
00:51:23,760 --> 00:51:26,600
Speaker 1: sundown town. Do you remember that phrase. I just talked

933
00:51:26,600 --> 00:51:29,200
Speaker 1: to you about it, I think a month or two ago. Sundowntown.

934
00:51:29,400 --> 00:51:32,000
Speaker 2: Oh, you're putting me on the spot. I do listen

935
00:51:32,080 --> 00:51:33,439
Speaker 2: to you, Kate, I really do.

936
00:51:33,719 --> 00:51:39,080
Speaker 1: But no, it's not a town that enjoys sunsets. That's it. Okay.

937
00:51:39,360 --> 00:51:44,120
Speaker 1: So a sundowntown is where people with a criminal history. Basically,

938
00:51:44,200 --> 00:51:47,960
Speaker 1: any ne'er do well known in that time, including people

939
00:51:48,000 --> 00:51:51,440
Speaker 1: of color, needed to be very concerned about being caught

940
00:51:51,640 --> 00:51:54,840
Speaker 1: after dark in a town like this, and that's what happens.

941
00:51:55,160 --> 00:51:59,960
Speaker 1: Ok There is a string of brutal slayings in other places.

942
00:52:00,239 --> 00:52:04,080
Speaker 1: Over the last nine months, so sixteen other people have

943
00:52:04,200 --> 00:52:10,200
Speaker 1: been similarly murdered in Colorado, Illinois, and Kansas. So people

944
00:52:10,239 --> 00:52:13,360
Speaker 1: think that there is a serial killer out there called

945
00:52:13,760 --> 00:52:16,080
Speaker 1: Billy the axe Man. I don't know where that came

946
00:52:16,080 --> 00:52:19,840
Speaker 1: from and or the Midwest axe man. I can go

947
00:52:19,920 --> 00:52:23,120
Speaker 1: through these murders, I just and to me. I mean,

948
00:52:23,239 --> 00:52:26,759
Speaker 1: axe murderers were not that unusual, even in the early

949
00:52:26,840 --> 00:52:29,960
Speaker 1: nineteen hundreds. But you know they have to list them off.

950
00:52:29,960 --> 00:52:32,320
Speaker 1: I can tell you about them. What do you think Colorado,

951
00:52:32,400 --> 00:52:33,799
Speaker 1: Colorao Springs, Paul.

952
00:52:33,760 --> 00:52:38,600
Speaker 2: No, really, yeah, right now? Sure you know you have

953
00:52:39,280 --> 00:52:43,960
Speaker 2: other far reaching jurisdictions that have similar type crimes. But

954
00:52:44,040 --> 00:52:45,719
Speaker 2: it has to be more than just the use of

955
00:52:45,760 --> 00:52:47,920
Speaker 2: an axe. It has to be more than just somebody

956
00:52:47,920 --> 00:52:51,520
Speaker 2: breaking into a family's house and killing people or even

957
00:52:51,600 --> 00:52:54,200
Speaker 2: multiple people, because this was something that was more common

958
00:52:54,280 --> 00:52:59,000
Speaker 2: back in the day. It's the signatures, the unusual things

959
00:52:59,000 --> 00:53:01,279
Speaker 2: that the offender did at the Moor's house that I

960
00:53:01,280 --> 00:53:05,600
Speaker 2: would want to see. Is there any other similar unusual

961
00:53:05,640 --> 00:53:10,359
Speaker 2: things happening in Colorado Springs in Illinois? You know, such

962
00:53:10,400 --> 00:53:14,359
Speaker 2: as the covering of the mirrors, which is the most significant,

963
00:53:14,440 --> 00:53:17,839
Speaker 2: or the covering of the victims heads, you know, do

964
00:53:17,880 --> 00:53:21,400
Speaker 2: they share that type of behavior? Then I would go, Okay,

965
00:53:21,520 --> 00:53:24,279
Speaker 2: I'm interested to see are they related or not.

966
00:53:24,680 --> 00:53:27,040
Speaker 1: Okay, I'm going to tell you about the four The

967
00:53:27,080 --> 00:53:29,720
Speaker 1: first one though, is in Colorado Springs. It's a couple

968
00:53:29,719 --> 00:53:33,279
Speaker 1: in their three year old who is murdered, and same night,

969
00:53:33,440 --> 00:53:36,279
Speaker 1: next door neighbor and two kids were also murdered with

970
00:53:36,360 --> 00:53:38,000
Speaker 1: an axe. These are all axe murders.

971
00:53:38,320 --> 00:53:39,320
Speaker 2: And when did this happen?

972
00:53:39,520 --> 00:53:45,120
Speaker 1: September twentieth, nineteen eleven, so this is about nine months before. Okay,

973
00:53:45,280 --> 00:53:51,000
Speaker 1: the next one is October first, so about eleven Twelve

974
00:53:51,080 --> 00:53:56,040
Speaker 1: days later in Monmouth, Illinois, there's a couple and their

975
00:53:56,239 --> 00:53:59,120
Speaker 1: thirteen year old daughter who are killed. The girl's nightgown

976
00:53:59,280 --> 00:54:03,520
Speaker 1: was torn, one of her arms was stretched overhead, kind

977
00:54:03,560 --> 00:54:07,000
Speaker 1: of like Lena, and the girl's legs were pushed up

978
00:54:07,000 --> 00:54:11,400
Speaker 1: to expose her body, just like Lena. Third set comes

979
00:54:11,600 --> 00:54:16,239
Speaker 1: October sixteenth, so that is about two weeks later. This

980
00:54:16,280 --> 00:54:19,560
Speaker 1: is in Ellsworth, Kansas. We're getting closer to where we're

981
00:54:19,600 --> 00:54:23,680
Speaker 1: going to, you know, Veliska. A couple in their three

982
00:54:23,800 --> 00:54:27,439
Speaker 1: children were murdered. The kids were six, four and one.

983
00:54:27,719 --> 00:54:33,280
Speaker 1: The mother was sexually assaulted with two then there should

984
00:54:33,280 --> 00:54:37,000
Speaker 1: be a whole warning just for this. She was sexually assaulted,

985
00:54:37,360 --> 00:54:41,320
Speaker 1: two toy pistols were forced into her rectum. A lamp

986
00:54:41,480 --> 00:54:43,319
Speaker 1: was left at the foot of the bed with its

987
00:54:43,440 --> 00:54:47,200
Speaker 1: chimney found under a chair. It doesn't say whether the

988
00:54:47,280 --> 00:54:50,120
Speaker 1: lamp was on or not, but you'll remember that's kind

989
00:54:50,120 --> 00:54:52,000
Speaker 1: of the way it was set up for Lena. Also

990
00:54:52,680 --> 00:54:56,120
Speaker 1: like putting her on display. And then the murderer crudely

991
00:54:56,320 --> 00:55:00,800
Speaker 1: cleaned that axe. Okay, last one, no kids in the home.

992
00:55:01,200 --> 00:55:04,480
Speaker 1: This is one hundred and forty miles south of Veliska.

993
00:55:04,800 --> 00:55:08,080
Speaker 1: The closest one. This is the same year as the

994
00:55:08,160 --> 00:55:13,480
Speaker 1: murders in Paula, Kansas. It's a couple who was bludgeoned

995
00:55:13,520 --> 00:55:17,040
Speaker 1: to death with a coal pick or a mason's hammer.

996
00:55:17,440 --> 00:55:19,319
Speaker 1: And as I said, no kids in the house. In

997
00:55:19,400 --> 00:55:21,759
Speaker 1: all these murders, every one of them, the faces of

998
00:55:21,840 --> 00:55:25,120
Speaker 1: the victims had been covered by sheets. The blinds were

999
00:55:25,200 --> 00:55:29,279
Speaker 1: drawn or blacked out with garments, and in three of

1000
00:55:29,320 --> 00:55:32,239
Speaker 1: the murders the killer washed himself at the scene of

1001
00:55:32,280 --> 00:55:35,960
Speaker 1: the crime. At least five of the murders he had lingered.

1002
00:55:36,320 --> 00:55:39,440
Speaker 1: They never found fingerprints. Now I know what you're going

1003
00:55:39,520 --> 00:55:41,719
Speaker 1: to ask. I don't see anything about the mirrors, but

1004
00:55:41,840 --> 00:55:45,360
Speaker 1: blinds were drawn in these. What do you think in

1005
00:55:45,440 --> 00:55:46,360
Speaker 1: all of those.

1006
00:55:46,480 --> 00:55:50,120
Speaker 2: No, I have to admit, you know, those sound interesting

1007
00:55:50,280 --> 00:55:53,440
Speaker 2: enough to where I have to consider the possibility that

1008
00:55:53,480 --> 00:55:55,360
Speaker 2: could be the same offender that killed the Moors and

1009
00:55:55,600 --> 00:56:00,120
Speaker 2: Ena and Lina. If that's the case, you know, obviously

1010
00:56:00,160 --> 00:56:03,000
Speaker 2: he's mobile, he's moving from state to state to state,

1011
00:56:03,520 --> 00:56:06,960
Speaker 2: and he's you know, committing this type of crime. You know,

1012
00:56:06,960 --> 00:56:10,080
Speaker 2: I think it's compelling with you know, the one, the

1013
00:56:10,080 --> 00:56:14,399
Speaker 2: one case that was in Illinois with the thirteen year

1014
00:56:14,400 --> 00:56:17,279
Speaker 2: old girl and then the one, the one that was

1015
00:56:17,360 --> 00:56:20,320
Speaker 2: in Ellsworth, you know, where you have the two pistols

1016
00:56:20,320 --> 00:56:23,680
Speaker 2: that have been shoved into an orifice. You know, that

1017
00:56:23,840 --> 00:56:26,719
Speaker 2: is a I do see predators doing that. You know,

1018
00:56:26,800 --> 00:56:32,160
Speaker 2: that is something that they experiment with. So yeah, I

1019
00:56:32,200 --> 00:56:35,480
Speaker 2: would say, you know, with even as little details as

1020
00:56:35,480 --> 00:56:39,319
Speaker 2: you provided on those cases, I'd be highly interested in

1021
00:56:39,719 --> 00:56:43,160
Speaker 2: taking a closer look to see is there even more

1022
00:56:44,160 --> 00:56:46,360
Speaker 2: overlap than just what you provided.

1023
00:56:47,080 --> 00:56:49,400
Speaker 1: Well, let me play Devil's advocate and you tell me

1024
00:56:49,640 --> 00:56:51,719
Speaker 1: what you think, because I was thinking about this, the

1025
00:56:51,880 --> 00:56:56,120
Speaker 1: connective tissue part of it. So in all of these murders,

1026
00:56:56,440 --> 00:57:01,239
Speaker 1: the victims' faces were covered by sheets. Is unusual even

1027
00:57:01,320 --> 00:57:03,560
Speaker 1: if they don't know the person. Is it unusual to

1028
00:57:03,600 --> 00:57:06,360
Speaker 1: find a victim that has a covered face.

1029
00:57:06,440 --> 00:57:09,200
Speaker 2: You know. I can go back to multiple cases, including

1030
00:57:09,239 --> 00:57:13,840
Speaker 2: the Golden State Killer, where DiAngelo covered multiple victims with

1031
00:57:13,920 --> 00:57:17,160
Speaker 2: the betting, you know, after he bludgeoned them. You know.

1032
00:57:17,200 --> 00:57:19,720
Speaker 2: And there is a practical aspect, as I mentioned earlier

1033
00:57:19,760 --> 00:57:22,760
Speaker 2: in this episode about the spatter guard aspect, and so

1034
00:57:22,840 --> 00:57:25,200
Speaker 2: that's part of what I would be assessing. But it's

1035
00:57:25,240 --> 00:57:27,560
Speaker 2: also an offender who doesn't want to be looking at

1036
00:57:27,560 --> 00:57:31,440
Speaker 2: what he did. Now, typically when we see victims covered,

1037
00:57:31,960 --> 00:57:35,439
Speaker 2: that's kind of going back to okay, in the offender's mind,

1038
00:57:35,480 --> 00:57:38,640
Speaker 2: there's some sort of attachment to those victims, but it's

1039
00:57:38,680 --> 00:57:41,800
Speaker 2: not hard and fast. And you know the fact that

1040
00:57:41,880 --> 00:57:45,560
Speaker 2: in these cases with you know, acts an acts being

1041
00:57:45,600 --> 00:57:48,640
Speaker 2: used or bludgeting weapon being used, and you're seeing whole

1042
00:57:48,680 --> 00:57:52,720
Speaker 2: families being killed, just like in the Moar case, the

1043
00:57:52,760 --> 00:57:57,000
Speaker 2: Velesca case, you know, there is some aspect to it

1044
00:57:57,120 --> 00:58:00,600
Speaker 2: to where you have a psychology, a similar psychology between

1045
00:58:01,240 --> 00:58:04,080
Speaker 2: the offender that committed these other state crimes and the

1046
00:58:04,120 --> 00:58:09,040
Speaker 2: one that killed the Moors and Ena and Lina. So

1047
00:58:09,120 --> 00:58:12,680
Speaker 2: that's you know, for me, I'm now fascinated with looking

1048
00:58:12,720 --> 00:58:15,720
Speaker 2: at this as a series versus I would use the

1049
00:58:15,800 --> 00:58:19,320
Speaker 2: term a mass murder. With the more case of Aleska

1050
00:58:19,360 --> 00:58:21,520
Speaker 2: case being a standalone case with eight people being killed

1051
00:58:21,520 --> 00:58:23,440
Speaker 2: all at once, I would say that's a mass murder

1052
00:58:23,480 --> 00:58:24,600
Speaker 2: and not a serial killer.

1053
00:58:24,920 --> 00:58:28,880
Speaker 1: Well, the sheriff of Colorado Springs agrees with you. They

1054
00:58:29,160 --> 00:58:32,800
Speaker 1: pull this together very quickly. So this is they're discovered

1055
00:58:33,040 --> 00:58:35,880
Speaker 1: on I don't remember what day it is, June tenth,

1056
00:58:36,160 --> 00:58:39,720
Speaker 1: So this happened let's say, you know, eleven fifty nine pm,

1057
00:58:39,880 --> 00:58:43,600
Speaker 1: June ninth, why June twelfth. They are trying to pull

1058
00:58:43,680 --> 00:58:46,800
Speaker 1: together some kind of This is almost like a task

1059
00:58:46,880 --> 00:58:49,920
Speaker 1: force that they're pulling together. So the sheriff from Colorado

1060
00:58:49,960 --> 00:58:54,760
Speaker 1: Springs meets with sheriffs from Illinois and from I think

1061
00:58:54,800 --> 00:58:59,480
Speaker 1: it's Kansas also, and they have a discussion and they're

1062
00:58:59,480 --> 00:59:02,480
Speaker 1: trying to who they think this guy is. The guy

1063
00:59:02,480 --> 00:59:05,040
Speaker 1: from Colorado Springs. That sheriff says he thinks it's a

1064
00:59:05,040 --> 00:59:09,000
Speaker 1: religious fanatic and it's one person that is just ripping

1065
00:59:09,000 --> 00:59:13,560
Speaker 1: through the Midwest, sexually assaulting and killing people. The sheriff

1066
00:59:13,600 --> 00:59:16,680
Speaker 1: from Illinois does not agree. He says, we think these

1067
00:59:16,720 --> 00:59:20,680
Speaker 1: are separate people, and he convinces the other sheriffs that

1068
00:59:20,680 --> 00:59:23,640
Speaker 1: these need to be investigated separately, not as a series

1069
00:59:24,040 --> 00:59:25,800
Speaker 1: of murders. What do you think about that?

1070
00:59:26,200 --> 00:59:28,640
Speaker 2: You know, when you do have let's say, similar crimes

1071
00:59:28,880 --> 00:59:31,760
Speaker 2: and you're trying to determine are they related or not,

1072
00:59:32,560 --> 00:59:36,640
Speaker 2: without you know, that objective DNA or fingerprint evidence or

1073
00:59:36,640 --> 00:59:40,000
Speaker 2: something that is really really unusual that you can say, hey,

1074
00:59:40,040 --> 00:59:44,720
Speaker 2: for sure, these are related. This is where it's nebulous

1075
00:59:44,960 --> 00:59:49,840
Speaker 2: and you're making an educated guess based on your own experience.

1076
00:59:49,880 --> 00:59:52,920
Speaker 2: And expertise as to are the cases more likely to

1077
00:59:52,960 --> 00:59:58,120
Speaker 2: be related or not. The mistake that agencies often make

1078
00:59:59,040 --> 01:00:02,480
Speaker 2: is they choose one path and not the other as

1079
01:00:02,920 --> 01:00:06,040
Speaker 2: the way that they conduct their investigation. And so for

1080
01:00:06,200 --> 01:00:09,600
Speaker 2: these cases, I would say, you have to consider that

1081
01:00:09,600 --> 01:00:13,560
Speaker 2: they're related, and you need to dedicate investigative resources to

1082
01:00:13,720 --> 01:00:17,280
Speaker 2: march down that road. But then you also have to

1083
01:00:18,000 --> 01:00:22,960
Speaker 2: you know, pursue each case individually, you know, doing traditional

1084
01:00:23,240 --> 01:00:27,120
Speaker 2: you know, standalone case type of investigations. So you have

1085
01:00:27,240 --> 01:00:30,760
Speaker 2: to have you have to keep both things going until

1086
01:00:30,960 --> 01:00:34,320
Speaker 2: one until clarifies, oh they're all related or all no,

1087
01:00:34,600 --> 01:00:39,240
Speaker 2: they're not. It's interesting that you know the Colorado Springs Sheriff,

1088
01:00:39,280 --> 01:00:42,680
Speaker 2: which today it's L Paso County Sheriff, and you have

1089
01:00:42,840 --> 01:00:47,040
Speaker 2: Colorado Springs PD, so it sounds like L. Pascal County

1090
01:00:47,080 --> 01:00:52,200
Speaker 2: Sheriff controlled all of Colorado Springs. He's saying the offender

1091
01:00:52,280 --> 01:00:55,040
Speaker 2: is a religious fanatic. And so while we know about

1092
01:00:55,040 --> 01:00:59,400
Speaker 2: the Moors being highly religious, the victimology in these other

1093
01:00:59,480 --> 01:01:03,360
Speaker 2: cases would also now be need to be studied to

1094
01:01:03,440 --> 01:01:07,600
Speaker 2: indicate were they also very religious? Had they all also

1095
01:01:07,760 --> 01:01:10,920
Speaker 2: attended let's say church the day of that they're killed.

1096
01:01:11,360 --> 01:01:16,600
Speaker 2: Is this guy, a semi transient religious individual that you know,

1097
01:01:16,720 --> 01:01:20,360
Speaker 2: kind of just shows up at these various you know,

1098
01:01:20,520 --> 01:01:25,200
Speaker 2: let's say, religious spots and then chooses a family that

1099
01:01:25,240 --> 01:01:28,480
Speaker 2: he's going to go and then kill for whatever reason. Right,

1100
01:01:29,200 --> 01:01:31,600
Speaker 2: we know a Lena, you know in that case, there's

1101
01:01:31,640 --> 01:01:33,360
Speaker 2: a sexual component to his crime.

1102
01:01:33,920 --> 01:01:39,000
Speaker 1: Well, they go through suspects and eliminate everyone they had.

1103
01:01:39,200 --> 01:01:43,320
Speaker 1: Josiah and Mary's strange brother in laws were dismissed. There

1104
01:01:43,400 --> 01:01:46,120
Speaker 1: was a weird bulgarian salesman. I don't know where this

1105
01:01:46,200 --> 01:01:49,760
Speaker 1: comes from. He was dismissed. There is an escaped patient

1106
01:01:50,040 --> 01:01:53,520
Speaker 1: he was found beforehand. It sounds like all those happened.

1107
01:01:54,000 --> 01:01:57,120
Speaker 1: And there was a construction worker who liked to sleep

1108
01:01:57,120 --> 01:01:59,600
Speaker 1: with an axe, never did anything else with it. Though

1109
01:01:59,840 --> 01:02:02,920
Speaker 1: he was dismissed. He was forty miles away confirmed alibi.

1110
01:02:03,280 --> 01:02:06,880
Speaker 1: So they are at a dead end and the investigation

1111
01:02:06,960 --> 01:02:11,600
Speaker 1: comes to a krawl until they manage to gather three

1112
01:02:11,760 --> 01:02:14,200
Speaker 1: main suspects. We are going to have to talk in

1113
01:02:14,240 --> 01:02:18,240
Speaker 1: the next episode about the trio of very eccentric I

1114
01:02:18,280 --> 01:02:21,680
Speaker 1: think suspects. One is a convicted killer, one is a

1115
01:02:21,680 --> 01:02:26,400
Speaker 1: wealthy businessman, and one is a minister. Okay, So we're

1116
01:02:26,400 --> 01:02:27,640
Speaker 1: going to go over him next week.

1117
01:02:27,880 --> 01:02:30,520
Speaker 2: Well, you're going to leave me hanging, but I will

1118
01:02:30,520 --> 01:02:31,320
Speaker 2: wait patiently.

1119
01:02:32,480 --> 01:02:34,360
Speaker 1: All right, I'll see you in a week, all right, Kate,

1120
01:02:34,480 --> 01:02:42,360
Speaker 1: take care bye. This has been an exactly right production for.

1121
01:02:42,360 --> 01:02:45,400
Speaker 2: Our sources and show notes go to exactly rightmedia dot

1122
01:02:45,440 --> 01:02:47,600
Speaker 2: com slash Barry Bones Sources.

1123
01:02:47,800 --> 01:02:50,160
Speaker 1: Our senior producer is Alexis Emirosi.

1124
01:02:50,480 --> 01:02:53,440
Speaker 2: Research by Alison Trumble and Kate Winkler Dawson.

1125
01:02:53,720 --> 01:02:55,960
Speaker 1: Our mixing engineer is Ben Tolliday.

1126
01:02:56,280 --> 01:02:58,560
Speaker 2: Our theme song is by Tom Bryfogel.

1127
01:02:58,800 --> 01:03:00,840
Speaker 1: Our artwork is by the Vanessa Lilac.

1128
01:03:01,080 --> 01:03:05,240
Speaker 2: Executive produced by Karen Kilgarriff, Georgia hard Stark, and Daniel Kramer.

1129
01:03:05,480 --> 01:03:08,880
Speaker 1: You can follow Buried Bones on Instagram and Facebook at

1130
01:03:08,960 --> 01:03:10,120
Speaker 1: buried Bones pod.

1131
01:03:10,600 --> 01:03:13,160
Speaker 2: Kate's most recent book, All That Is Wicked, a Gilded

1132
01:03:13,160 --> 01:03:15,160
Speaker 2: Age story of murder and the race to decode the

1133
01:03:15,160 --> 01:03:17,200
Speaker 2: criminal mind, is available now.

1134
01:03:17,280 --> 01:03:21,560
Speaker 1: And Paul's best selling memoir Unmasked, My life Solving America's

1135
01:03:21,560 --> 01:03:23,640
Speaker 1: Cold Cases is also available now.

1136
01:03:23,960 --> 01:03:27,640
Speaker 2: Listen to Buried Bones on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,

1137
01:03:27,800 --> 01:03:29,680
Speaker 2: or wherever you get your podcasts.