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Speaker 1: This week's classic episode is part of a part of

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Speaker 1: a continuing series that frankly, I don't think any of

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Speaker 1: us like doing. It's it's a grizzly thing, and it's

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Speaker 1: just it's necessary to talk about it. But once you

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Speaker 1: get past all the fiction and the crime dramas and stuff,

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Speaker 1: serial murderers are an incredibly evil thing.

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Speaker 2: It is something of a modern, you know creation.

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Speaker 3: I guess at the very least, the obsession with them

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Speaker 3: is uh, And we try not to, you know, be

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Speaker 3: on that tip in terms of just being so focused

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Speaker 3: on the grizzly, gory details of these kinds of things.

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Speaker 3: We try to just report the facts and really let

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Speaker 3: you know about this very distinctly modern construct that is

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Speaker 3: the serial killer.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, because you don't even know that it's a serial

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Speaker 4: killer until someone in law enforcement or in investigator connects

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Speaker 4: enough cases to realize, oh wait, there is a serial killer.

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Speaker 4: Which is why there are some known serial killers we're

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Speaker 4: going to talk about in this episode that were never

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Speaker 4: caught or are perhaps still out there, and there are

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Speaker 4: many others that are likely just unknown and existing anonymously.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. And although the current technological innovations regarding surveillance make

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Speaker 1: it more difficult for people to for killers to function

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Speaker 1: that way. It is far from impossible, and so there

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Speaker 1: are still here in twenty twenty three serial killers on

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Speaker 1: the loose, from UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies.

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Speaker 1: History is riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back

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Speaker 1: now or learn this stuff they don't want you to know.

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Speaker 4: Welcome back to the show. My name is Matt, my

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Speaker 4: name is Nolan.

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Speaker 1: They call me Ben. We are joined with our long suffering,

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Speaker 1: super tolerant super producer Paul Decant. Most importantly, you are here.

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Speaker 1: You are you that makes this stuff they don't want

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Speaker 1: you to know? Part three in a continuing series, The Trinthnity,

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Speaker 1: an unfortunately continuing series, we should add as well. You see, folks,

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Speaker 1: this is part three in our series on unapprehended serial

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Speaker 1: killers and in the past. In previous episodes we covered

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Speaker 1: the new Bedford Highway killer remains unapprehended, the Lisbon Ripper,

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Speaker 1: also unapprehended, Pedro Lopez, famously known as the Monster of

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Speaker 1: the Andes.

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Speaker 4: Once apprehended, then not anymore.

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Speaker 1: Yes, once apprehended then escaped. In a few years ago,

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Speaker 1: Interpol release a warrant or a call to find this guy.

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Speaker 1: And then we also covered the Connecticut River Valley Killer

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Speaker 1: and the possibilities of that killer's true identity. We also

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Speaker 1: covered the Long Island serial killer aka the Craigslist Ripper.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, and then we had Bible John thrown in there

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Speaker 4: from the last one the Babysitter, which was an odd

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Speaker 4: name I remember for a killer. The Freeway Phantom was one,

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Speaker 4: and the Maniac of Novasbiersk. Yeah, I believe that's how

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Speaker 4: you say it.

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Speaker 2: That sounds right to me.

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Speaker 4: Okay, cool.

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Speaker 1: And you can check out our previous episodes, one which

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Speaker 1: has a guest on the show who was not themselves

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Speaker 1: a serial killer so far as we know, and there

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Speaker 1: you can find some deep dives into both the methods

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Speaker 1: of murder, the times these killers were own to be active,

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Speaker 1: and the latest research at the time of the recording

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Speaker 1: regarding whether or not they will be apprehended. And we

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Speaker 1: did this along with serial killers who almost got away

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Speaker 1: who very well would have gotten away had they not

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Speaker 1: returned to an active state, and those would be people

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Speaker 1: like the Grim Sleeper or Dennis Radar also known as BTK,

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Speaker 1: or the bind Torture Kill.

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Speaker 4: And we've also explored the stories of the original night Stalker,

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Speaker 4: which was that was a tough one in the Highway.

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Speaker 1: Of Tears, especially which continues.

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Speaker 4: Man in Canada, there's a lot to go back and

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Speaker 4: listen to, so I would recommend just getting those archives,

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Speaker 4: go way back and explore it. But it's a grizzly.

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Speaker 1: Ride, and don't do it while you're eating, please. And

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Speaker 1: as we said at the top, more serial killers remain

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Speaker 1: on the loose today. We're boiler alert, not going to

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Speaker 1: have any chance of covering them all in this episode.

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Speaker 1: So as you are listening, if there is one that

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Speaker 1: you think your fellow listeners would find particularly fascinating, or

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Speaker 1: most importantly, if you think there might be some sort

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Speaker 1: of lead that could ultimately result in the apprehension, conviction,

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Speaker 1: or arrest of one of these unidentified killers, whether or

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Speaker 1: not they're on this show. Let us know several of

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Speaker 1: the killers we're exploring today have little or no chance

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Speaker 1: of facing up to the consequences of their crimes. Those

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Speaker 1: crimes being serial murder, right, so this is different from

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Speaker 1: a garden variety homicide, not to diminish the tragedies inherent

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Speaker 1: in that. And first, let's have a quick recap of

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Speaker 1: what exactly defines a serial killer.

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Speaker 5: So the base level criteria for a serial killer are

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Speaker 5: that this individual commits at least three murders in at

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Speaker 5: least three separate locations, and that there is something of

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Speaker 5: a cooling off period in between. It's almost like a

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Speaker 5: kind of hibernation, almost.

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Speaker 4: Yeah. And that comes from the nineteen ninety two Crime

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Speaker 4: Classification Manual, and that's where it outlines all that stuff.

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Speaker 4: But that's not where the term serial killer originates, right.

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Speaker 1: The term serial killers we understand it today was coined

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Speaker 1: in the mid nineteen seventies by former director of the

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Speaker 1: FBI's Violent Criminal Apprehension Program, a man named Robert Wrestler.

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Speaker 1: He chose serial for peak behind the Curtain here because

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Speaker 1: the police in England called these types of murders crimes

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Speaker 1: in a series quote unquote, and because of the serial

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Speaker 1: films that he grew up watching. In Part two of

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Speaker 1: the series, in the previous episode on Uncaught serial Killers,

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Speaker 1: we examined some of the methods that have been used

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Speaker 1: to classify this type of order based on their motivations,

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Speaker 1: their processes, the very rough demographics from killers who were

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Speaker 1: caught or were observed in enough detail by witnesses or

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Speaker 1: survivors to create a reasonable a reasonable shot at a

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Speaker 1: physical description. And what we've learned from these various investigations

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Speaker 1: is that real life serial killers, as exceedingly rare as

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Speaker 1: they are, don't often match the image of a killer

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Speaker 1: of this type that you would see in so many

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Speaker 1: works of fiction.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, and you know, this is the first uncaught serial

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Speaker 4: Killers episode we've done since mind Hunter has been out

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Speaker 4: on Netflix.

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Speaker 1: Oh, that's true.

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Speaker 4: Well, and that's just one of those shows that really

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Speaker 4: gets you into the behavioral science department of the FBI

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Speaker 4: and how they're thinking about crimes in a series really

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Speaker 4: has evolved over time, and how the psychology of some

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Speaker 4: of these people, how it functions.

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Speaker 5: I think it's interesting how little action that show has,

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Speaker 5: but how it still keeps you on the edge of

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Speaker 5: your seat, and it really reveals so much about the

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Speaker 5: inner workings, and like a lot of the tension comes

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Speaker 5: from conversation rather than.

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Speaker 2: Confrontation kind of. And I think it's really really great show.

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Speaker 4: But unlike some of the highlights from a show, a

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Speaker 4: fictionalized show like that, these murderers are not brilliant masterminds.

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Speaker 4: Many times, a lot of times they are just like

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Speaker 4: you and I they have families, they have networks of friends,

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Speaker 4: they drive cars, they have a car note that they pay,

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Speaker 4: They've got a mortgage perhaps or something to that effect,

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Speaker 4: and they might even be on social media.

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Speaker 5: And these impulses that we're talking about, like this urge

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Speaker 5: to kill in this way is less some sort of

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Speaker 5: calculated mastermind kind of thing, and as it is like

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Speaker 5: an addiction that you're constantly struggling with and fighting every

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Speaker 5: day and having to kind of figure out how to

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Speaker 5: incorporate it into that family life and not be discovered,

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Speaker 5: you know. I mean, it's a really fascinating psychological landscape

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Speaker 5: for these.

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Speaker 1: Crimes and serial killers like many other people, because ultimately,

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Speaker 1: these are not some sort of superpowered subspecies of humanity.

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Speaker 1: These are people at base right, and ultimately they are

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Speaker 1: as varied in terms of their demographic description or their

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Speaker 1: motivations as another person would be about their own, you know,

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Speaker 1: socioeconomic status, thrown genetic makeup their aims and desires. Just

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Speaker 1: as there are serial killers who feel they have voices

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Speaker 1: commanding them to do something, there are also serial killers

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Speaker 1: who have a belief that you know, as Noel said,

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Speaker 1: there there's maybe a compulsion and then there may also

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Speaker 1: be a belief that a certain amount of people must

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Speaker 1: be killed in a certain way for some sort of design.

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Speaker 1: These are not cookie cutter profiles. And we want to

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Speaker 1: emphasize again the damning thing about the information we do have,

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Speaker 1: we being human civilization law enforcement at large, is that

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Speaker 1: we are basing these classifications almost entirely on incomplete evidence,

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Speaker 1: because we're only talking usually about the ones who get caught.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, because how do you talk about the ones who

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Speaker 4: are still out there? I mean, if you can't interview

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Speaker 4: someone and they can't tell you something, you're just inferring

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Speaker 4: from what you find at a crime scene.

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Speaker 1: So we've mentioned in previous episodes that again pre mind Hunters,

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Speaker 1: a lot of people would be most familiar with certain

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Speaker 1: fictional characters when they think of serial killers, like a

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Speaker 1: Hannibal Lecter, sure or Dexter for instance.

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Speaker 4: Right.

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Speaker 1: And in both of those cases, the killers are they

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Speaker 1: ultimately transform into anti hero right. And they are also

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Speaker 1: meticulous and brilliant and very rarely driven by passion rather

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Speaker 1: than premeditation, which in real life is not always the case.

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Speaker 5: Have you guys seen Manhunter, the original appearance of Hanniballecter,

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Speaker 5: the original no it's weird, it's very eighties, but it's

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Speaker 5: it's very beautifully shot. And Brian Cox plays Hannibal elect

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Speaker 5: which is interesting because we know, you know the Anthony

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Speaker 5: Hopkins portrayal of that role so well, because it's so

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Speaker 5: over the top, kind of like you see him in

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Speaker 5: that role and you're almost like, how would anyone not

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Speaker 5: peg that dude for a psycho a mile away? Brian

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Speaker 5: Cox plays it much more understated and much more like,

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Speaker 5: you know, he could pass for a regular dude, Whereas

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Speaker 5: Anthony Hopkins, while that performance is captivating, I kind of

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Speaker 5: feel like, how would you not know that that guy's

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Speaker 5: got bodies in his basement?

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Speaker 4: I have to say really fast. When I hear Brian Cox,

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Speaker 4: I think of the physicist that I remember from our

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Speaker 4: days with Discovery, the younger cern. I believe he's a

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Speaker 4: certain physicist, and I don't think I know what Brian Cox,

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Speaker 4: the actor looks like.

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Speaker 1: Well you are in luck.

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Speaker 4: Oh yes, okay, very familiar.

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Speaker 1: Okay, So for everyone who can't see, because this is

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Speaker 1: of course coming to you as the audio podcast, Noel

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Speaker 1: pulled up a photograph of Brian Cox for Matt's illumination.

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Speaker 4: And meanwhile, I'm looking at the English author and physicist.

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Speaker 5: He does come up first, though I know why. I

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Speaker 5: think I spelled Brian's name wrong. He has an English

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Speaker 5: spelling maybe br a n versus No, No, their names

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Speaker 5: are spell identically, but Brian Cox, the physicist, definitely comes

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Speaker 5: up before the actor.

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Speaker 2: Good on you, Google.

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Speaker 1: You know what. I will take that a step further

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Speaker 1: and say, good on you humanity.

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Speaker 5: Maybe it's because Stephen Hawking died today and so physics

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Speaker 5: are at top of mind.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I got to work. That was a tough thing.

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Speaker 1: That's true. Yes, as we're recording this, it is both

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Speaker 1: the anniversary of Albert Einstein's birth, it is Pie Day,

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Speaker 1: and it is the day that Stephen Hawking's legendary astrophysicist expired.

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Speaker 1: This may well be old news by the time this

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Speaker 1: hits the airwaves, but hopefully it's still relevant. And what

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Speaker 1: a fascinating what a fascinating person. But wait, you may

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Speaker 1: be saying, isn't this an episode about uncaught serial killers?

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Speaker 1: It is indeed, and we'll dive into that after a

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Speaker 1: word from our sponsor. Here's where it gets crazy.

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Speaker 4: There are so many serial killers that have been active

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Speaker 4: over the years that are still uncaught that may be

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Speaker 4: active right now, maybe we're just unaware of it.

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Speaker 5: Or that have been caught and released or caught and

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Speaker 5: then you know, evidence, very compelling evidence exists.

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Speaker 2: But some technicality has allowed them to walk free.

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Speaker 1: It's possibility, or as also happens, they may have been

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Speaker 1: apprehended for another crime and not tied to the murders

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Speaker 1: right as the case might be, but instead be languishing

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Speaker 1: in prison ye some time.

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Speaker 4: And then maybe police are out, authorities are looking for

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Speaker 4: someone and they right under their noses. We just don't know.

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Speaker 1: So let's travel to India, to Mumbai, and let's look

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Speaker 1: at some specific examples of serial killers on the loose

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Speaker 1: or at least unapprehended. Today, we're looking at a killer

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Speaker 1: known as beer Man. That's our first example. And yes,

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Speaker 1: that is beer br like something you would you know, cold,

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Speaker 1: when you would crack open with the boys, to paraphrase Reddit.

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Speaker 1: So between October two thousand and six and January two

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Speaker 1: thousand and seven, by India, the press and law enforcement

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Speaker 1: were on the track of a killer they called beer

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Speaker 1: Man because according to them, them being the press and

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Speaker 1: law enforcement, one of the primary linkages between these deaths

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Speaker 1: was the presence of beer bottles near the bodies. But

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Speaker 1: you'll find conflicting info about this case.

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Speaker 4: Yeah. One source said there were only two beer cans

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Speaker 4: found throughout the entirety of this serial killer's run, and

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Speaker 4: it was only two victims and they were in fact

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Speaker 4: beer cans. But again, this is reporting from India and

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Speaker 4: the sources were using or everything from the Times of

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Speaker 4: India to NDTV to there's a blog called open Something

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Speaker 4: that I can't recall any of it right now, but

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Speaker 4: they're varying sources and we're definitely getting conflicting information. Hear U.

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Speaker 5: How in most movies about serial killers, the cops always

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Speaker 5: are super pissed when the press gives a snappy nickname

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Speaker 5: to a killer like that is not serving their goals.

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Speaker 5: Usually they're usually very annoyed, or if someone refers to

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Speaker 5: them like that as an internal memo, they're like, you know,

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Speaker 5: you better not let this get out.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, And that happens in real life too, because one

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Speaker 1: of the one of the things that puts the press

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Speaker 1: and law enforcement and loggerheads in the investigations of these

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Speaker 1: crimes is going to be the idea of the good scoop,

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Speaker 1: the exclusive scoop versus the need to hold information back

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Speaker 1: so they can real identify the killer. Because another trope

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Speaker 1: in fiction that does turn out to be true, unfortunately,

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Speaker 1: is that when the specific details of a murder or

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Speaker 1: a murderer's rituals are released, copycat people or people who

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Speaker 1: want the attention will just call into the police department

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Speaker 1: and say, you know, you got me. I am the

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Speaker 1: Bago Badger's butcher or whatever.

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Speaker 2: I knew it was you all along.

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Speaker 1: Ben, Oh, this is my Paul impression.

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Speaker 2: I like it, no, but it's true.

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Speaker 5: And I mean, can you imagine being a cop responsible

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Speaker 5: for solving one of these crimes? How annoying and like

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Speaker 5: muddling it must be when this information starts flooding the

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Speaker 5: press and you're constantly having to differentiate between real information

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Speaker 5: and these jerks that are just trying to like waste

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Speaker 5: your time and.

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Speaker 2: Get a little you know, get a little rise. You know,

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Speaker 2: I can't, I mean, I you know.

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Speaker 4: But then from a journalist's perspective, it's almost your duty

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Speaker 4: to inform the people around you, the public like dangers

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Speaker 4: that exist. So you have those two competing things.

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Speaker 1: It's very true, and you know, we can't assign motives

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Speaker 1: to journalism entire because it's also true that journalists will

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Speaker 1: seek to gain the most credibility in the media marketplace,

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Speaker 1: and it's also true they want to sell the most

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Speaker 1: maybe sell the most papers back in the day, get

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Speaker 1: the most clicks online nowadays. And yes, by the way,

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Speaker 1: side note, it's entirely possible that an active serial killer

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Speaker 1: today is on social media just because of the numbers. However,

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Speaker 1: one one thing that we have noticed in the past

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Speaker 1: is that there have been times where journalists have assigned

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Speaker 1: a killer or a perceived killer a nickname that the

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Speaker 1: killer themselves objected to, you know, like don't call me

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Speaker 1: the baby rubber I am, you know, the King of Darkness,

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Speaker 1: and then it becomes it introduces this whole new layer

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Speaker 1: of complication with investigating the case. And you know, one

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Speaker 1: of the things that law enforcement doesn't want a killer

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Speaker 1: to do. One of the reasons they dislike nicknames in general,

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Speaker 1: is because some of these murders have latched onto this

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Speaker 1: in the past. Right Jack the Ripper, right the axe

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Speaker 1: man in New Orleans, or let's see, did the Zodiac

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Speaker 1: killer self assigned?

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Speaker 5: That's a weird one though, right, because I feel like

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Speaker 5: he set the terms for his role, and then the

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Speaker 5: press kind of fed back into it and became this

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Speaker 5: like weird feedback loop. But I kind of want to

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Speaker 5: say he at least had a symbol of some kind

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Speaker 5: or did he sign his letter Zodiac.

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Speaker 1: We're going to have to dive in. We could do

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Speaker 1: an entire episode on the Zodiac killer. For now, let's

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Speaker 1: look at the beer man. Let's go back to India.

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Speaker 1: Current speculation as we record this puts the number of

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Speaker 1: victims at between six to eight individuals. Their methods of

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Speaker 1: murder differ. They were killed by being hit on the

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Speaker 1: head with a stone, in some cases bludgeoned, or in

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Speaker 1: other cases, according to in DTV, they were stabbed in

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Speaker 1: the chest.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, several different types of bludgeonings occurred in stabbings. From

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Speaker 4: the reports we had read, though, all the men there

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Speaker 4: were there were several men. The first victim was a

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Speaker 4: taxi driver that was found. All the men were poor

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Speaker 4: or not at least not wealthy. Some of them were homeless.

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Speaker 4: It was surmised that the killer himself was probably not poor.

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Speaker 4: And this is for several several reasons. Because first of all,

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Speaker 4: he drinks beer out of cans, which I guess is

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Speaker 4: a factor. And then also because he must have been

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Speaker 4: or was probably operating a vehicle of some sort, and

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Speaker 4: you have to have a certain amount of money in

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Speaker 4: India in that area to own or at least operate

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Speaker 4: a vehicle.

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Speaker 1: In any part of the world, wouldn't drink beer?

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Speaker 2: Had a glass bee fancy here?

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Speaker 4: Possibly, I don't. I don't know the customs in that area,

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Speaker 4: but yeah, it was. It was given as drinking beer

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Speaker 4: from a can was one of the reasons.

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Speaker 1: Well, I know that in cases with glass bottled beverages

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Speaker 1: like Thumbs Up, which is popular soda, that the glasses

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Speaker 1: are typically purchased and returned and then refilled. That makes sense,

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Speaker 1: so that might play a role in there. They also

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Speaker 1: attempted to build a profile, and they said that the

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Speaker 1: killer was likely young, early thirties, thirty to thirty five,

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Speaker 1: and in pretty good physical shape because he was able

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Speaker 1: to overpower his victims easily. The killers well, the sites

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Speaker 1: of the murders were secluded spots, which to them indicated

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Speaker 1: that this murderer knew South Mumbai well, or here's the

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Speaker 1: terrifying thing, knows South Mumbay well.

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Speaker 5: And the perpetrator of these crimes was believed to have

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Speaker 5: had sex with five of his victims before killing them.

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Speaker 2: At the fourth scene. The killer allegedly left a note

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Speaker 2: which was written in very.

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Speaker 5: Polished English, and while he may have had good English,

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Speaker 5: he did not have good hand running, apparently because most

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Speaker 5: of the text of the letter was undecided, or it's

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Speaker 5: possible that the cops chose not to release the contents

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Speaker 5: in full and just exert it instead. But one of

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Speaker 5: the things that was contained in the note was the

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Speaker 5: quite chilling welcome to the clan.

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Speaker 4: Yeah yeah, what does that mean? Like an initiation of

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Speaker 4: some sort?

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Speaker 1: Right c LA and not kl right yeah. So again

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Speaker 1: there are differences in them the mode of operation here,

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Speaker 1: specifically stabbing versus bludgeoning or also strangulation. Police believe that

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Speaker 1: these murders have been committed by the same man, and

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Speaker 1: then things took a turn. On January twenty second, two

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Speaker 1: thousand and seven, Mumbai law enforcement arrested someone for the murders.

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Speaker 4: A man named Revendra Control and it's also written contrallou

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Speaker 4: in a couple of places, So Revendra cantrol I think

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Speaker 4: that's what we'll probably call him for this. They rested

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Speaker 4: him for the murders and according to the Times of India,

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Speaker 4: once he was in custody, he was subjected to several tests,

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Speaker 4: some of which I at least personally was not familiar with.

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Speaker 4: They called it one narco analysis, which we think is

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Speaker 4: probably just a drug test of some sort, brain mapping

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Speaker 4: which I have not seen used in law enforcement, and

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Speaker 4: polygraph So let's go through these really fast. The narcoanalysis

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Speaker 4: tests that mister Ravendro went through, they seemed to clear

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Speaker 4: up the beer mystery, according to the Times of India,

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Speaker 4: saying okay, so he allegedly said, as he's going through

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Speaker 4: this test that he would make him his victims drink

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Speaker 4: beer before killing them. But he did deny, according to

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Speaker 4: the Times of India, any sexual conduct with his victims.

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Speaker 1: And a lot of homophobia draws into this part of

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Speaker 1: the investigation, which has happened before. For instance, one of

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Speaker 1: John Wayne Gacy's primary things that he stuck to for

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Speaker 1: his entire time in prison was that he was not

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Speaker 1: a homosexual, and he was very irritated and frustrated that

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Speaker 1: he felt the press was unfairly calling him that. And

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Speaker 1: there's an echo of this here with the suspect revengra

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Speaker 1: Control saying that he was being falsely accused of being

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Speaker 1: attracted to the same sex.

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Speaker 5: And that trope actually going to come into play later

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Speaker 5: on in today's episode in a very big way.

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Speaker 4: Now, the other test, one the other ones, was called

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Speaker 4: brain mapping, and with this one, Controlla was attached to

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Speaker 4: a device that looked at I guess, brain signals, brain waves,

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Speaker 4: if you will, while he's looking at pictures of victims

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Speaker 4: from these the beer Man killings.

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Speaker 2: Sounds like some black mirror stuff, right, it.

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Speaker 4: Does, right, And allegedly, according to these sources, he showed

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Speaker 4: signs of recognizing several of the photographs.

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Speaker 1: So maybe the activity in a certain region of his

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Speaker 1: brain spiked when he saw certain photographs. And then we're

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Speaker 1: assuming if it were to be a valid test, they

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Speaker 1: would also present him with pictures of strangers, yes, and

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Speaker 1: contrast those those findings.

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Speaker 4: So yeah, but we don't have the specifics of these

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Speaker 4: tests that were performed over Vendra. The last one is

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Speaker 4: polygraph which is inadmissible in US.

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Speaker 1: Courts because it's a load of whoy.

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Speaker 4: Yes, And those are the tests you know this already,

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Speaker 4: but those are the tests that look at how your

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Speaker 4: body is responding to stress while you're under questioning.

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Speaker 1: Oh, did we tell everybody the way to beat a

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Speaker 1: polygraph on this show or the way to render it.

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Speaker 2: Is like the thumbtack method. I know that's one.

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Speaker 1: That's one. Yeah, yeah, what is the thumb tag?

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Speaker 5: I think if you just have like a baseline of

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Speaker 5: pain that you have, it can skew the entire results.

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Speaker 5: So if you like sneak in a thumbtack and it's

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Speaker 5: like stab yourself in the lag with a thumbtack the

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Speaker 5: entire time, it's going to skew the results, where the

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Speaker 5: baseline of like calmness I guess that it's looking for

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Speaker 5: is going to be much more difficult to ascertain, and

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Speaker 5: it may look like a faked test, it's like you know,

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Speaker 5: or it may look like a botch test or something

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Speaker 5: was wrong, but they.

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Speaker 2: Certainly can't actually get anything useful out of it, hear.

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Speaker 1: This, Yeah, yeah, yeah. And that's it's similar to the

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Speaker 1: other approach, which is to just for the entire length

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Speaker 1: of the interview really flex your butt and like really

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Speaker 1: put some put some effort into it so that again

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Speaker 1: there's this strain that alters the baseline.

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Speaker 3: You know.

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Speaker 4: For Atlanta Monster, we had we interviewed a gentleman who

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Speaker 4: performed a polygraph on Wayne Williams. And one of the

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Speaker 4: things he said is there are sensors now in the

438
00:26:49,720 --> 00:26:52,720
Speaker 4: chairs to prevent that. Oh no, that very thing, so

439
00:26:52,880 --> 00:26:55,679
Speaker 4: you clenching anything like that. They do like a full

440
00:26:56,000 --> 00:26:59,159
Speaker 4: search now if they ever do these, not that polygraphs

441
00:26:59,200 --> 00:27:02,240
Speaker 4: are just you know, being used all over the place

442
00:27:02,280 --> 00:27:05,440
Speaker 4: in law enforcement. But they yeah, they that method was real.

443
00:27:05,560 --> 00:27:08,960
Speaker 1: So let's all get some thumb tacks or maybe not

444
00:27:09,080 --> 00:27:09,560
Speaker 1: kill people.

445
00:27:09,680 --> 00:27:12,159
Speaker 5: That's also the why it's laughable when someone accused of

446
00:27:12,480 --> 00:27:15,360
Speaker 5: sexual misconduct will come up, come out and say, but look,

447
00:27:15,400 --> 00:27:17,800
Speaker 5: I took a polygraph by my own, you know, I

448
00:27:18,520 --> 00:27:19,520
Speaker 5: volunteered to do it.

449
00:27:19,520 --> 00:27:20,240
Speaker 4: Here are the results.

450
00:27:20,320 --> 00:27:20,840
Speaker 1: Check it out.

451
00:27:21,240 --> 00:27:23,680
Speaker 2: It's like, dude, you just played yourself.

452
00:27:23,840 --> 00:27:26,199
Speaker 4: Yeah. Oh and just the one last thing with those polygraphs,

453
00:27:26,440 --> 00:27:30,280
Speaker 4: dwayn Williams. They performed three tests, so they run the

454
00:27:30,280 --> 00:27:33,040
Speaker 4: same questions three times and they don't look at one

455
00:27:33,119 --> 00:27:36,560
Speaker 4: individual test. They come like, look at how each question

456
00:27:36,800 --> 00:27:39,400
Speaker 4: changes each time you answer it?

457
00:27:39,600 --> 00:27:42,760
Speaker 1: Right, to build a more robust data set. Well, what

458
00:27:43,560 --> 00:27:48,040
Speaker 1: did this alleged beer man say during his polygraph?

459
00:27:48,080 --> 00:27:51,160
Speaker 4: Well, the authority said that during these tests, Revendra had

460
00:27:51,240 --> 00:27:56,160
Speaker 4: confessed to both being involved in twenty one criminal cases

461
00:27:56,800 --> 00:27:59,760
Speaker 4: and to committing fifteen.

462
00:27:59,359 --> 00:28:02,439
Speaker 2: Murders finger swishing.

463
00:28:02,600 --> 00:28:07,600
Speaker 4: Yeah, so involved in twenty one crimes, but you know,

464
00:28:08,119 --> 00:28:11,280
Speaker 4: committed fifteen murders according to the authorities.

465
00:28:12,600 --> 00:28:14,560
Speaker 2: That's a weird thing to admit.

466
00:28:14,960 --> 00:28:17,119
Speaker 1: It's a weird distinction to me too. It makes you

467
00:28:17,160 --> 00:28:18,760
Speaker 1: wonder if there was torture involved.

468
00:28:19,000 --> 00:28:21,320
Speaker 4: Well now, well here's the thing. Now, remember this is

469
00:28:22,359 --> 00:28:25,800
Speaker 4: you know, a report that came out right from sources.

470
00:28:26,440 --> 00:28:28,920
Speaker 4: Then of course he went to trial and he only

471
00:28:28,960 --> 00:28:32,800
Speaker 4: stood trial for three murders, so there was only enough

472
00:28:32,840 --> 00:28:35,080
Speaker 4: evidence to connect him with three of them.

473
00:28:35,320 --> 00:28:37,960
Speaker 1: And he was found guilty on one count of murder.

474
00:28:38,200 --> 00:28:42,600
Speaker 1: This led to him being sentenced to life imprisonment. However,

475
00:28:42,960 --> 00:28:46,600
Speaker 1: things changed in September of two thousand and nine when

476
00:28:46,640 --> 00:28:49,280
Speaker 1: the Bombay High Court made a ruling.

477
00:28:49,400 --> 00:28:50,640
Speaker 2: And what a ruling it was.

478
00:28:51,320 --> 00:28:55,760
Speaker 5: The Bombay High Court overruled in fact Revenger's conviction and

479
00:28:55,840 --> 00:29:00,800
Speaker 5: declared Cantrol not guilty of the murders. And so he

480
00:29:00,840 --> 00:29:03,520
Speaker 5: went on to open himself a little food truck fast

481
00:29:03,520 --> 00:29:06,680
Speaker 5: food stall, and he sold the rights to have his

482
00:29:06,720 --> 00:29:09,480
Speaker 5: story he adapted into a film, and as of now

483
00:29:09,680 --> 00:29:13,960
Speaker 5: he is a freeman and the beer Man murders remain unsolved.

484
00:29:14,440 --> 00:29:16,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, that was when I was doing the research. That

485
00:29:16,240 --> 00:29:19,200
Speaker 1: was my favorite part was the fast food stall and

486
00:29:19,240 --> 00:29:22,320
Speaker 1: the rights to the film adaptation. You can find an

487
00:29:22,320 --> 00:29:25,680
Speaker 1: interview where he talks about it. But he also says

488
00:29:26,040 --> 00:29:31,240
Speaker 1: that his reputation by and large is ruined because you know,

489
00:29:31,800 --> 00:29:35,720
Speaker 1: he was sentenced. He was convicted and sentenced, and after

490
00:29:35,760 --> 00:29:40,480
Speaker 1: a sentence like that is overturned, it doesn't mean that

491
00:29:40,560 --> 00:29:42,840
Speaker 1: the community forgets.

492
00:29:42,840 --> 00:29:45,480
Speaker 4: Yeah, and it's not like your picture wasn't all over

493
00:29:45,600 --> 00:29:49,200
Speaker 4: the media so people can recognize you. And the other

494
00:29:49,240 --> 00:29:52,800
Speaker 4: thing apparently he is now a usual suspect in Mumbai,

495
00:29:52,880 --> 00:29:55,800
Speaker 4: so anytime anyone dies, they'll go and find him and

496
00:29:55,840 --> 00:29:56,920
Speaker 4: bring him in for questioning.

497
00:29:57,080 --> 00:30:00,920
Speaker 1: Well, again to that point, he did confess to committing

498
00:30:01,360 --> 00:30:02,440
Speaker 1: fifteen murders.

499
00:30:02,520 --> 00:30:06,320
Speaker 4: That's right, and like according to somebody.

500
00:30:05,880 --> 00:30:08,680
Speaker 5: So okay, right, And you know, and like we said,

501
00:30:08,680 --> 00:30:11,400
Speaker 5: we don't know if these things were said under duress.

502
00:30:11,680 --> 00:30:12,640
Speaker 2: But you got a wonder too.

503
00:30:12,640 --> 00:30:15,000
Speaker 5: If you get a nickname like that, and that's your

504
00:30:15,080 --> 00:30:18,640
Speaker 5: claim to fame, whether in good taste or not. If

505
00:30:18,640 --> 00:30:20,920
Speaker 5: you've gone free, do you get to keep the nickname

506
00:30:21,360 --> 00:30:23,560
Speaker 5: like can you call your food truck the beer Man.

507
00:30:23,960 --> 00:30:25,440
Speaker 5: I'm sorry that's making a face.

508
00:30:25,720 --> 00:30:28,760
Speaker 4: It's just I don't I don't like the idea of

509
00:30:28,800 --> 00:30:32,280
Speaker 4: a potential serial killer opening a food truck based on

510
00:30:32,400 --> 00:30:35,120
Speaker 4: the name that was given to the serial killer by

511
00:30:35,120 --> 00:30:35,800
Speaker 4: the media.

512
00:30:35,880 --> 00:30:38,600
Speaker 1: Well, you will be happy to learn that most of

513
00:30:38,680 --> 00:30:43,040
Speaker 1: the serial killers who were committing acts accountabalism and a

514
00:30:43,080 --> 00:30:50,000
Speaker 1: feeding unsuspecting people human flesh. A lot of them have

515
00:30:50,080 --> 00:30:52,480
Speaker 1: been caught. Again, I can't make you feel one hundred

516
00:30:52,480 --> 00:30:55,400
Speaker 1: percent better because we only know the ones that got caught.

517
00:30:55,560 --> 00:30:57,160
Speaker 4: But the thing it helps them.

518
00:30:57,360 --> 00:31:00,280
Speaker 1: Hey, you know, I'm here for you, man. But the

519
00:31:00,400 --> 00:31:04,360
Speaker 1: interesting thing, the darkly fascinating thing about the power of

520
00:31:04,440 --> 00:31:07,560
Speaker 1: nicknames here is that there was a case in Egypt

521
00:31:07,720 --> 00:31:12,520
Speaker 1: with a serial killer who was known for heading a

522
00:31:12,600 --> 00:31:19,000
Speaker 1: gang on the train where they would abduct people, children

523
00:31:19,040 --> 00:31:21,560
Speaker 1: and other gang members, sexually assault them and kill them.

524
00:31:22,160 --> 00:31:27,360
Speaker 1: He got caught, he was executed, but afterwards people began

525
00:31:27,560 --> 00:31:33,440
Speaker 1: naming things after him, and his name caught on posthumously,

526
00:31:33,480 --> 00:31:36,840
Speaker 1: which is a troubling statement. But he's not in this

527
00:31:36,920 --> 00:31:38,840
Speaker 1: episode because he was definitely caught.

528
00:31:38,960 --> 00:31:40,800
Speaker 5: Okay, Well, Ben I, me and you had a conversation

529
00:31:40,920 --> 00:31:43,640
Speaker 5: off Mike about that Museum of Death that I went

530
00:31:43,680 --> 00:31:47,160
Speaker 5: to in la and the whole like the ethics of

531
00:31:47,960 --> 00:31:52,200
Speaker 5: making money off of your crimes if you are actually incarcerated,

532
00:31:52,360 --> 00:31:54,520
Speaker 5: whether you can sell let's say, like a work of

533
00:31:54,600 --> 00:31:56,840
Speaker 5: art like John Wayne Gacy. In this museum there were

534
00:31:56,880 --> 00:31:58,800
Speaker 5: a ton of John Wayne Gacy paintings that he had

535
00:31:58,840 --> 00:32:01,360
Speaker 5: done of him as a clown, you know, various things

536
00:32:01,400 --> 00:32:03,000
Speaker 5: like that, and there was even I can't remember the

537
00:32:03,040 --> 00:32:05,880
Speaker 5: guy's name now, but he was an absolute monster. But

538
00:32:05,960 --> 00:32:09,120
Speaker 5: he had this series of like these collages and these

539
00:32:09,160 --> 00:32:11,280
Speaker 5: like almost pop up books, and there was a notebook

540
00:32:11,320 --> 00:32:13,760
Speaker 5: of letters, and one of them was a dispute that

541
00:32:13,800 --> 00:32:16,480
Speaker 5: he had with an art dealer about how they owed

542
00:32:16,560 --> 00:32:19,520
Speaker 5: him money. And it was literally a correspondence between him

543
00:32:19,560 --> 00:32:21,520
Speaker 5: and this art dealer, and you can see the back

544
00:32:21,520 --> 00:32:24,280
Speaker 5: and forth. And I mentioned this to you Ben, and

545
00:32:24,560 --> 00:32:28,600
Speaker 5: the theory was, it's technically not legal, I guess, to

546
00:32:29,560 --> 00:32:34,640
Speaker 5: represent a known criminal like that for works that glory.

547
00:32:34,720 --> 00:32:36,640
Speaker 2: I don't know exactly what the laws are, but our

548
00:32:36,720 --> 00:32:37,360
Speaker 2: theory was.

549
00:32:37,280 --> 00:32:39,560
Speaker 5: That maybe they did it to get him in the door,

550
00:32:40,120 --> 00:32:42,040
Speaker 5: and then they were not they weren't going to pay

551
00:32:42,080 --> 00:32:43,680
Speaker 5: him because he doesn't really have a leg to stand.

552
00:32:43,760 --> 00:32:45,160
Speaker 2: Maybe that's what it was, that he didn't really have

553
00:32:45,200 --> 00:32:46,880
Speaker 2: a right to see them.

554
00:32:47,200 --> 00:32:50,800
Speaker 1: Yeah, due to the son of Sam law, which is

555
00:32:51,320 --> 00:32:55,400
Speaker 1: a kind of an umbrella term for laws designed to

556
00:32:55,480 --> 00:32:58,720
Speaker 1: keep not just serial killers, but any criminals from profiting

557
00:32:59,200 --> 00:33:03,760
Speaker 1: of the result of their crimes. So not just you know,

558
00:33:03,840 --> 00:33:08,440
Speaker 1: not just art for instance, but you can't sell the

559
00:33:08,560 --> 00:33:11,560
Speaker 1: rights to your life story or film. Like if Matt

560
00:33:11,600 --> 00:33:13,640
Speaker 1: and I apologize in dvance for using you as an

561
00:33:13,640 --> 00:33:16,280
Speaker 1: example here, we've just got a system and your name

562
00:33:16,320 --> 00:33:22,680
Speaker 1: came up. So if if Matt Frederick the give like

563
00:33:22,720 --> 00:33:24,360
Speaker 1: the worst example, what's well.

564
00:33:24,320 --> 00:33:27,040
Speaker 4: Let's say let's say Matt Frederick is in I don't know,

565
00:33:27,560 --> 00:33:33,640
Speaker 4: constant talks with a convicted serial killer and there are

566
00:33:33,680 --> 00:33:38,560
Speaker 4: talks of selling rights to a story, and then the

567
00:33:38,600 --> 00:33:42,000
Speaker 4: Georgia Department of Corrections finds out and then you have

568
00:33:42,080 --> 00:33:44,000
Speaker 4: to go through the motions.

569
00:33:45,560 --> 00:33:50,000
Speaker 1: Right, let's just say hypathetically that happens. Well, the first

570
00:33:50,520 --> 00:33:52,720
Speaker 1: the first law that will qualify his son of Sam

571
00:33:52,800 --> 00:33:57,719
Speaker 1: law was created New York after David Berkowitz because there

572
00:33:57,760 --> 00:34:00,880
Speaker 1: were all these rumors that publishers and movies studios, we're

573
00:34:00,880 --> 00:34:05,640
Speaker 1: offering a lot of money to him directly, which is paying.

574
00:34:05,920 --> 00:34:08,959
Speaker 1: If you think about it, it's not that far away

575
00:34:08,960 --> 00:34:12,960
Speaker 1: from paying someone to kill people. That's essentially what it is.

576
00:34:13,680 --> 00:34:17,560
Speaker 1: So yes, Noel is absolutely right. That is a debate

577
00:34:17,600 --> 00:34:21,440
Speaker 1: that continues today because then the other question would be, well,

578
00:34:21,560 --> 00:34:26,279
Speaker 1: is it as bad if we buy the rights to this?

579
00:34:26,880 --> 00:34:30,040
Speaker 1: But the money legally is required to go to a

580
00:34:30,160 --> 00:34:33,239
Speaker 1: fund for the surviving family members or something.

581
00:34:33,160 --> 00:34:36,560
Speaker 4: That's exactly That's exactly how it's handled nowadays, goes to

582
00:34:36,560 --> 00:34:38,400
Speaker 4: a fund for the victims' families.

583
00:34:38,160 --> 00:34:43,560
Speaker 1: But it doesn't bring anyone back and earlier, so now

584
00:34:43,719 --> 00:34:49,160
Speaker 1: we have no we as in the human species, don't

585
00:34:49,160 --> 00:34:53,480
Speaker 1: have any public clues for the beer Man murders. We

586
00:34:53,680 --> 00:34:57,960
Speaker 1: do have other cases, and they're not just in India,

587
00:34:58,080 --> 00:35:01,360
Speaker 1: they're not just in the United States. We will travel

588
00:35:01,400 --> 00:35:03,359
Speaker 1: to a very different part of the world for our

589
00:35:03,360 --> 00:35:14,880
Speaker 1: next example, after a word from our sponsors Johannesburg, South Africa.

590
00:35:15,120 --> 00:35:19,279
Speaker 1: Beginning so far as we officially know, in twenty ten,

591
00:35:20,600 --> 00:35:25,320
Speaker 1: an unknown individual or group of killers was meeting gay

592
00:35:25,360 --> 00:35:29,920
Speaker 1: men online and forums, gaining their trust, traveling to their

593
00:35:29,920 --> 00:35:35,920
Speaker 1: homes and brutally murdering them. At this point, you know,

594
00:35:35,960 --> 00:35:38,520
Speaker 1: earlier in our beer Man example, we were able to

595
00:35:38,560 --> 00:35:40,920
Speaker 1: say for a certain span of years, but at this

596
00:35:41,120 --> 00:35:45,520
Speaker 1: point the years just ending question marks. We don't know

597
00:35:45,560 --> 00:35:50,040
Speaker 1: when or if this stopped, because for years law enforcement

598
00:35:50,200 --> 00:35:53,160
Speaker 1: would not identify the murders as linked, nor did they

599
00:35:53,280 --> 00:35:56,800
Speaker 1: publicly describe this as the action of a serial killer.

600
00:35:56,840 --> 00:36:01,200
Speaker 1: And this led community activists in in the area in

601
00:36:01,280 --> 00:36:05,520
Speaker 1: Johannesburg to say that the police were slow to investigate

602
00:36:06,040 --> 00:36:10,560
Speaker 1: due to rampant homophobia in South Africa, so slow in fact,

603
00:36:10,600 --> 00:36:14,680
Speaker 1: that they were actively just not caring or prioritizing these

604
00:36:14,760 --> 00:36:15,440
Speaker 1: violent crimes.

605
00:36:15,560 --> 00:36:19,120
Speaker 4: Yeah, and that sentiment is echoed by Dowie Nell, the

606
00:36:19,200 --> 00:36:22,200
Speaker 4: director of Out, who says that police were sluggish the

607
00:36:22,200 --> 00:36:24,680
Speaker 4: same thing. Police were sluggish in their investigation because of

608
00:36:24,719 --> 00:36:28,240
Speaker 4: the sexuality of the victims, and as each murder becomes

609
00:36:29,239 --> 00:36:31,920
Speaker 4: or became known to the media, Nell would call police

610
00:36:31,960 --> 00:36:34,000
Speaker 4: to step up their investigations. Hey, come on, you guys,

611
00:36:34,040 --> 00:36:36,200
Speaker 4: get on this. This is happening. This is very real.

612
00:36:36,680 --> 00:36:40,000
Speaker 4: But apparently it just didn't do any good. And we

613
00:36:40,040 --> 00:36:43,719
Speaker 4: have a quote from Dowie.

614
00:36:42,760 --> 00:36:45,160
Speaker 1: Up to this point there have only been three arrests.

615
00:36:45,160 --> 00:36:47,680
Speaker 1: In one of the cases. We call on the police

616
00:36:47,719 --> 00:36:51,239
Speaker 1: to please take this seriously and increase the urgency of

617
00:36:51,280 --> 00:36:55,840
Speaker 1: their investigation to insure justice for the victims and their families.

618
00:36:56,480 --> 00:36:58,560
Speaker 5: And the police went on to state that they believe

619
00:36:58,760 --> 00:37:05,160
Speaker 5: that there may be a gang of homophobic murderers targeting men,

620
00:37:06,320 --> 00:37:10,040
Speaker 5: with the last reports as recently as twenty thirteen alleging

621
00:37:10,120 --> 00:37:13,600
Speaker 5: that the killer or killers may have actually relocated to

622
00:37:13,719 --> 00:37:15,560
Speaker 5: Cape Town, South Africa.

623
00:37:16,120 --> 00:37:21,520
Speaker 1: Which is strange. Isn't it that they moved from Johannesburg

624
00:37:21,680 --> 00:37:25,799
Speaker 1: to Cape Town? If they are indeed related and in

625
00:37:25,840 --> 00:37:32,839
Speaker 1: this instance, questions remain, we would be we'd be very

626
00:37:32,880 --> 00:37:36,520
Speaker 1: interested in hearing your take on this if you lived

627
00:37:36,600 --> 00:37:42,520
Speaker 1: in Cape Town or in Johannesburg during this time especially,

628
00:37:42,560 --> 00:37:47,319
Speaker 1: We'd like to know if the local community believes these

629
00:37:47,360 --> 00:37:50,360
Speaker 1: are ongoing or if this was a spate of things

630
00:37:50,360 --> 00:37:55,360
Speaker 1: that were considered to have some definitive span of time

631
00:37:55,600 --> 00:38:02,799
Speaker 1: and just remain unsolved. Again, the critics, LGBTQ activist and

632
00:38:03,000 --> 00:38:08,040
Speaker 1: more say that the South African police forces are simply

633
00:38:08,120 --> 00:38:12,759
Speaker 1: not prioritizing these murders due to the fact that it

634
00:38:12,800 --> 00:38:17,279
Speaker 1: afflicts a stigmatized section of the population and when we

635
00:38:17,360 --> 00:38:20,560
Speaker 1: go when we talk about this kind of cultural prejudice.

636
00:38:21,080 --> 00:38:26,839
Speaker 1: It's deceptively easy to say, oh, that happens in another culture, right,

637
00:38:27,480 --> 00:38:31,880
Speaker 1: Homophobia is so rampant in insert city or insert country

638
00:38:31,920 --> 00:38:36,680
Speaker 1: here that it is an unfortunate fact of the matter.

639
00:38:37,000 --> 00:38:40,719
Speaker 1: And it surely wouldn't be the case in I don't know,

640
00:38:41,160 --> 00:38:45,879
Speaker 1: a country like Canada or Western Europe or the United States. Wait.

641
00:38:46,920 --> 00:38:49,240
Speaker 1: Example number three, The Doodler.

642
00:38:49,640 --> 00:38:52,439
Speaker 5: Yeah, this one's tough. From nineteen seventy four to nineteen

643
00:38:52,480 --> 00:38:55,759
Speaker 5: seventy five, a man known only as the Doodler killed

644
00:38:55,800 --> 00:38:59,600
Speaker 5: up to fourteen gay men in San Francisco. He got

645
00:38:59,640 --> 00:39:03,239
Speaker 5: this aim because he would meet his victims at gay

646
00:39:03,280 --> 00:39:09,520
Speaker 5: bars and sketch their portraits before taking them to a location,

647
00:39:09,719 --> 00:39:12,520
Speaker 5: having sex with them, and then stabbing them to death.

648
00:39:14,719 --> 00:39:19,160
Speaker 4: Yeah, and they'll mention that he would draw portraits, paintings,

649
00:39:19,560 --> 00:39:21,919
Speaker 4: just drawings of his victims. None of these were ever

650
00:39:22,000 --> 00:39:24,919
Speaker 4: released to the press. And although it's believed he killed

651
00:39:24,960 --> 00:39:28,040
Speaker 4: fourteen people, it's much more likely that he took around

652
00:39:28,080 --> 00:39:28,920
Speaker 4: five victims.

653
00:39:29,160 --> 00:39:32,839
Speaker 1: Yeah, and that can sound confusing. What that means is

654
00:39:32,960 --> 00:39:40,839
Speaker 1: that up to fourteen people in similar circumstances disappeared or

655
00:39:41,360 --> 00:39:47,240
Speaker 1: met a violent end around that time. But the investigation

656
00:39:47,520 --> 00:39:52,680
Speaker 1: as it stands, the traces only five specifically to him,

657
00:39:53,520 --> 00:39:58,880
Speaker 1: usually the eyewitness accounts right and months after his last

658
00:39:58,960 --> 00:40:03,799
Speaker 1: killing in seventy five, the San Francisco Police Department did

659
00:40:03,880 --> 00:40:06,160
Speaker 1: release one sketch related to the Doodler. It was not

660
00:40:06,200 --> 00:40:08,360
Speaker 1: a sketch he made of his victims. It was a

661
00:40:08,400 --> 00:40:12,399
Speaker 1: sketch law enforcement it made based on descriptions of the suspects.

662
00:40:13,000 --> 00:40:16,200
Speaker 1: He was a black man in his early twenties, around

663
00:40:16,239 --> 00:40:19,880
Speaker 1: six feet tall, with a slim build, and according to

664
00:40:19,960 --> 00:40:24,439
Speaker 1: one witness, he described himself as someone studying commercial art.

665
00:40:25,640 --> 00:40:29,080
Speaker 1: And one of the big questions that pops up in

666
00:40:29,160 --> 00:40:32,200
Speaker 1: our minds when we look at this is why haven't

667
00:40:32,239 --> 00:40:36,080
Speaker 1: we heard of this? You know, why is this murder,

668
00:40:36,680 --> 00:40:40,200
Speaker 1: this series of murders in a very well known part

669
00:40:40,239 --> 00:40:43,960
Speaker 1: of the United States. Why is it so unknown today?

670
00:40:44,360 --> 00:40:46,680
Speaker 1: And in the great span of history. Nineteen seventy four

671
00:40:46,760 --> 00:40:50,000
Speaker 1: nineteen seventy five was not that long ago. Many people

672
00:40:50,040 --> 00:40:54,359
Speaker 1: listening to the show now were alive. Then here's part

673
00:40:54,400 --> 00:40:58,880
Speaker 1: of why this may have been brushed aside. The murders

674
00:40:58,920 --> 00:41:01,600
Speaker 1: took place around this same time as the notorious and

675
00:41:01,760 --> 00:41:06,960
Speaker 1: likewise unsolved Zodiac murders, and as in the case with

676
00:41:07,000 --> 00:41:10,600
Speaker 1: the Johannesburg murders, it seems that part of the official

677
00:41:10,840 --> 00:41:17,120
Speaker 1: disregard and part of the legal obstacle course facing any

678
00:41:17,360 --> 00:41:22,760
Speaker 1: pursuit of this criminal can be traced directly back to homophobia.

679
00:41:22,840 --> 00:41:25,000
Speaker 1: In fact, the killer could have been caught.

680
00:41:24,960 --> 00:41:28,040
Speaker 4: Yes, because he left. There were some surviving victims of

681
00:41:28,080 --> 00:41:30,960
Speaker 4: the doodler who were actually prominent people that could have

682
00:41:31,000 --> 00:41:34,400
Speaker 4: gone to the police and said who they were. But

683
00:41:34,520 --> 00:41:37,120
Speaker 4: there's a problem in doing that. You're going to out

684
00:41:37,160 --> 00:41:41,759
Speaker 4: yourself to everyone if you admit to being a part

685
00:41:41,800 --> 00:41:42,000
Speaker 4: of this.

686
00:41:42,520 --> 00:41:42,759
Speaker 1: Right.

687
00:41:43,239 --> 00:41:45,800
Speaker 5: Harvey Milk, who is a well known politician and activists

688
00:41:45,800 --> 00:41:48,120
Speaker 5: in San Francisco, also a game man himself.

689
00:41:48,680 --> 00:41:50,880
Speaker 2: He said this to the Associated.

690
00:41:50,400 --> 00:41:54,279
Speaker 5: Press regarding his understanding of people's position in this case, said,

691
00:41:54,320 --> 00:41:57,080
Speaker 5: I respect the pressure society is put on them. He

692
00:41:57,239 --> 00:42:00,719
Speaker 5: estimated eighty five thousand homosexuals lived in San Francisco, and

693
00:42:00,760 --> 00:42:02,520
Speaker 5: he said that of that number, a good twenty to

694
00:42:02,560 --> 00:42:04,240
Speaker 5: twenty five percent are in the closet.

695
00:42:04,880 --> 00:42:10,640
Speaker 1: And Milk's estimation proved to have some sand because the

696
00:42:10,680 --> 00:42:17,359
Speaker 1: police questions survivors, including a quote well known entertainer, a

697
00:42:17,440 --> 00:42:21,360
Speaker 1: diplomat from Europe, as as Matt had said prominent people,

698
00:42:21,880 --> 00:42:26,200
Speaker 1: and for a year. For a year, the police were

699
00:42:26,280 --> 00:42:30,359
Speaker 1: questioning a suspect that they believed was the doodler right,

700
00:42:31,000 --> 00:42:33,560
Speaker 1: but he did not admit guilt, and none of the

701
00:42:33,600 --> 00:42:38,000
Speaker 1: survivors to the earlier point were willing to testify. And

702
00:42:38,120 --> 00:42:40,719
Speaker 1: this meant that there was no way to charge him.

703
00:42:40,719 --> 00:42:45,120
Speaker 1: There wasn't any smoking gun evidence. He was not you know,

704
00:42:45,239 --> 00:42:48,200
Speaker 1: he was not physically linked to this stuff. And the

705
00:42:48,239 --> 00:42:51,919
Speaker 1: most important piece of the evidence. The survivors who could

706
00:42:52,000 --> 00:42:54,279
Speaker 1: point at the guy in court and say, yes, that's

707
00:42:54,320 --> 00:42:56,720
Speaker 1: the man who tried to kill me, were not willing

708
00:42:56,840 --> 00:43:01,960
Speaker 1: to you know, having already risked their lives by surviving

709
00:43:02,000 --> 00:43:05,120
Speaker 1: this ordeal, they were not willing to risk their lives

710
00:43:05,200 --> 00:43:11,279
Speaker 1: again given the social stigmas of the time. And you

711
00:43:11,560 --> 00:43:17,360
Speaker 1: can ask the San Francisco Police Department about these cases,

712
00:43:18,280 --> 00:43:23,600
Speaker 1: they will give you the same response they gave journalists,

713
00:43:23,640 --> 00:43:24,120
Speaker 1: which is.

714
00:43:24,719 --> 00:43:29,600
Speaker 4: We don't discuss open investigations. See that's fascinating that it's

715
00:43:30,760 --> 00:43:34,600
Speaker 4: it's still an open investigation somehow. And I wonder what

716
00:43:34,760 --> 00:43:38,960
Speaker 4: methods there could be to attain some of some of

717
00:43:38,960 --> 00:43:41,840
Speaker 4: those records, because it's been since nineteen seventy four or

718
00:43:41,840 --> 00:43:46,080
Speaker 4: seventy five. I don't know. I'm gonna look. I'm really seriously,

719
00:43:46,080 --> 00:43:46,800
Speaker 4: I'm gonna look into that.

720
00:43:46,800 --> 00:43:47,880
Speaker 5: I mean, I feel like it's one of those things

721
00:43:47,920 --> 00:43:50,000
Speaker 5: where when a case is that old and that cold,

722
00:43:50,640 --> 00:43:51,680
Speaker 5: the only break you're.

723
00:43:51,560 --> 00:43:53,120
Speaker 2: Gonna get is someone running their mouth.

724
00:43:53,560 --> 00:43:55,560
Speaker 5: Yeah, you know, talking out of school in a bar

725
00:43:55,640 --> 00:43:58,080
Speaker 5: that someone happens to overhear and then make a complaint

726
00:43:58,080 --> 00:44:00,680
Speaker 5: and the next thing you know, you're in Buffalo Bills Dungeon, you.

727
00:44:00,600 --> 00:44:01,040
Speaker 3: Know what I mean.

728
00:44:01,520 --> 00:44:04,160
Speaker 5: Like that really does feel like like a short of

729
00:44:04,480 --> 00:44:07,440
Speaker 5: you know, they call them cold cases, but they definitely

730
00:44:07,520 --> 00:44:10,480
Speaker 5: get trundled off to the back to relegate it to

731
00:44:10,520 --> 00:44:12,600
Speaker 5: the filing cabinets, you know. I mean, people are not

732
00:44:12,680 --> 00:44:15,520
Speaker 5: actively working these cases, and they don't have the resources

733
00:44:15,560 --> 00:44:16,120
Speaker 5: to do it right.

734
00:44:16,880 --> 00:44:20,040
Speaker 1: And especially in a time where news cycles move so

735
00:44:20,160 --> 00:44:24,560
Speaker 1: quickly and news becomes so ephemeral, it's easy for these

736
00:44:24,640 --> 00:44:29,600
Speaker 1: things to be forgotten. I like your point about somebody

737
00:44:29,640 --> 00:44:32,920
Speaker 1: having to speak out of turn to release this kind

738
00:44:32,960 --> 00:44:36,279
Speaker 1: of information that would be held up because you know,

739
00:44:36,360 --> 00:44:40,560
Speaker 1: the reality is that murder cases, the national average is

740
00:44:40,600 --> 00:44:45,080
Speaker 1: around a sixty somethingter percent clearance rate, which means that

741
00:44:46,200 --> 00:44:49,040
Speaker 1: clearing a case means that it has been explained it

742
00:44:49,080 --> 00:44:51,759
Speaker 1: was a spected murder. They either explained what happened or

743
00:44:51,800 --> 00:44:55,480
Speaker 1: they found the person responsible or the people responsible. So

744
00:44:55,800 --> 00:45:01,360
Speaker 1: with that, with that little less than forty percent unclosed

745
00:45:01,480 --> 00:45:05,799
Speaker 1: uncleared case ratio, we know this kind of stuff happens.

746
00:45:05,920 --> 00:45:10,160
Speaker 1: And in the course of our exploration today of uncaught

747
00:45:10,200 --> 00:45:14,839
Speaker 1: serial killers, we found what we'd like to call a

748
00:45:15,040 --> 00:45:21,040
Speaker 1: dishonorable mention, and it involves a case that may well

749
00:45:21,880 --> 00:45:25,719
Speaker 1: encompass multiple assailants. It is the case that may be

750
00:45:25,840 --> 00:45:29,560
Speaker 1: familiar to some true detective fans, known as the jeff

751
00:45:29,719 --> 00:45:30,560
Speaker 1: Davis Eight.

752
00:45:31,320 --> 00:45:33,960
Speaker 4: Yes, between two thousand and five and two thousand and nine,

753
00:45:34,040 --> 00:45:36,880
Speaker 4: there were eight women from the town of Jennings, Louisiana,

754
00:45:37,680 --> 00:45:41,360
Speaker 4: is in the Jefferson Davis Parish. They were murdered and

755
00:45:41,440 --> 00:45:45,239
Speaker 4: their bodies were dumped in ponds and canals in the area.

756
00:45:45,280 --> 00:45:49,760
Speaker 4: And these victims died of various causes. Some had appeared

757
00:45:49,800 --> 00:45:53,600
Speaker 4: to have been asphyxiated. Two of the women had their throats.

758
00:45:53,200 --> 00:45:57,719
Speaker 1: Slashed, one in a truck that was available to law

759
00:45:57,800 --> 00:45:59,880
Speaker 1: enforcement covered in her blood.

760
00:46:00,160 --> 00:46:03,759
Speaker 4: Hmm. But the means of death aside the women of

761
00:46:03,760 --> 00:46:07,160
Speaker 4: the jeff Davis eight had plenty in common. All of

762
00:46:07,200 --> 00:46:10,400
Speaker 4: them were from South Jennings, the poor side of town,

763
00:46:10,719 --> 00:46:12,080
Speaker 4: and they knew each other.

764
00:46:12,560 --> 00:46:15,800
Speaker 5: And they were all living in poverty and had criminal

765
00:46:15,840 --> 00:46:21,080
Speaker 5: records full of drug abuse and petty crimes, and they

766
00:46:21,120 --> 00:46:24,879
Speaker 5: often supported their drug habits with sex work.

767
00:46:25,600 --> 00:46:27,400
Speaker 4: Yeah, this sounds very familiar.

768
00:46:28,080 --> 00:46:31,280
Speaker 1: An author named Ethan Brown investigated this for a number

769
00:46:31,360 --> 00:46:33,720
Speaker 1: of years. He wrote a book about it called Murder

770
00:46:33,719 --> 00:46:38,840
Speaker 1: in the Bayou, and he also noted that all eight

771
00:46:39,040 --> 00:46:43,080
Speaker 1: of the victims there in Jefferson Davis Parish were informants

772
00:46:43,080 --> 00:46:47,080
Speaker 1: for local law enforcement about the drug sales in the

773
00:46:47,160 --> 00:46:51,640
Speaker 1: drug trade there in Jennings, which is a very small town. Originally,

774
00:46:52,080 --> 00:46:57,400
Speaker 1: investigators believed this was a single deranged serial killer. However, Brown,

775
00:46:57,680 --> 00:47:01,160
Speaker 1: who was a New Orleans based PI, when he first

776
00:47:01,200 --> 00:47:04,879
Speaker 1: heard of the murders in two thy ten, he thought

777
00:47:04,880 --> 00:47:06,880
Speaker 1: there was something else to the story, and he was

778
00:47:06,920 --> 00:47:10,680
Speaker 1: astonished that the police claimed they had no leads. To Brown,

779
00:47:10,719 --> 00:47:12,879
Speaker 1: this sounded strange in a town that had around ten

780
00:47:12,920 --> 00:47:17,239
Speaker 1: thousand people, and he visited the side himself over the

781
00:47:17,280 --> 00:47:20,560
Speaker 1: next few years, connecting one dot after another. Here's some

782
00:47:20,600 --> 00:47:22,880
Speaker 1: of the things he found. He found that all the

783
00:47:22,960 --> 00:47:25,919
Speaker 1: victims had at some point stayed in the Bourdeau Inn,

784
00:47:26,280 --> 00:47:29,000
Speaker 1: and this was a motel which is closed now, where

785
00:47:29,040 --> 00:47:32,080
Speaker 1: the town's drug dealers and sex workers would get together

786
00:47:32,239 --> 00:47:35,719
Speaker 1: to get high and to have their clients over. He

787
00:47:35,760 --> 00:47:41,080
Speaker 1: also found that officers of the parish slept with some

788
00:47:41,160 --> 00:47:43,960
Speaker 1: of the women who later became victims.

789
00:47:44,560 --> 00:47:48,600
Speaker 2: So this is some kind of like kinky police murder ring.

790
00:47:49,040 --> 00:47:53,280
Speaker 1: Well, Brown, to his credit, just connects dots and doesn't

791
00:47:53,360 --> 00:47:55,520
Speaker 1: draw He's trying to be very journalistic about it, so

792
00:47:55,560 --> 00:47:59,680
Speaker 1: he's not drawing hard conclusions. But I agree with you,

793
00:48:00,080 --> 00:48:03,960
Speaker 1: does seem to be the case. He also found pretty

794
00:48:04,000 --> 00:48:09,520
Speaker 1: compelling proof that evidence in these eight murder cases had

795
00:48:09,520 --> 00:48:12,720
Speaker 1: been tampered with or was removed from the parish entirely.

796
00:48:12,719 --> 00:48:15,560
Speaker 1: And one of the big things that went missing was

797
00:48:15,600 --> 00:48:18,720
Speaker 1: that truck where the one victim atter a throat slashed.

798
00:48:19,280 --> 00:48:22,440
Speaker 1: You would think that a truck that was a essentially

799
00:48:22,600 --> 00:48:29,759
Speaker 1: rolling crime scene wouldn't disappear in that way. So additionally,

800
00:48:30,239 --> 00:48:33,400
Speaker 1: prison nurse and a sergeant voiced concerns about this. They

801
00:48:33,440 --> 00:48:36,280
Speaker 1: said they thought there was something rotten in the parish

802
00:48:36,440 --> 00:48:40,600
Speaker 1: and they were fired. Several women who provided information about

803
00:48:40,600 --> 00:48:45,800
Speaker 1: the initial murders later became victims themselves, leading Ethan Brown,

804
00:48:46,840 --> 00:48:50,239
Speaker 1: like Nol to believe that there wasn't so much a

805
00:48:50,360 --> 00:48:53,279
Speaker 1: serial killer active here as there was a cover up

806
00:48:53,360 --> 00:48:56,480
Speaker 1: that was in some way directly connected to the sheriff's office.

807
00:48:57,040 --> 00:49:01,640
Speaker 4: And here's where it gets even crazy. In twenty fourteen,

808
00:49:01,760 --> 00:49:05,000
Speaker 4: Brown discovered that the Boudreau Inn was owned by Louisiana

809
00:49:05,080 --> 00:49:10,360
Speaker 4: congressman named Charles Bustini. And this gentleman had himself slept

810
00:49:10,360 --> 00:49:12,800
Speaker 4: with at least three of the murder victims.

811
00:49:13,040 --> 00:49:16,640
Speaker 2: So here's my question. Are they murdering them to keep

812
00:49:16,680 --> 00:49:17,440
Speaker 2: them quiet?

813
00:49:17,960 --> 00:49:21,480
Speaker 5: Or is the murder like the kink that's being exploited here.

814
00:49:21,600 --> 00:49:23,799
Speaker 2: It's like sex isn't enough.

815
00:49:24,440 --> 00:49:29,160
Speaker 5: These powerful men like want to take lives, you know,

816
00:49:29,280 --> 00:49:29,800
Speaker 5: for sport.

817
00:49:30,040 --> 00:49:34,560
Speaker 4: Well that's if he was actually involved. I'm just throwing

818
00:49:34,600 --> 00:49:35,080
Speaker 4: it out there.

819
00:49:35,120 --> 00:49:38,480
Speaker 1: It's a good question, yeah, because we see So we

820
00:49:38,560 --> 00:49:42,319
Speaker 1: can sketch this out in a little bit more detail here,

821
00:49:42,560 --> 00:49:47,680
Speaker 1: which you can find in Ethan Brown's book. He connected

822
00:49:47,719 --> 00:49:51,759
Speaker 1: the ownership of the inn in the following manner. A

823
00:49:51,800 --> 00:49:55,960
Speaker 1: guy was a fixer and a representative for the congressman

824
00:49:56,440 --> 00:50:01,879
Speaker 1: had the hotel purchase under an entity that controlled this

825
00:50:02,160 --> 00:50:06,120
Speaker 1: enabled the congressman's office to say, oh, we had no

826
00:50:06,280 --> 00:50:08,520
Speaker 1: knowledge that you owned, that we had no stake in this.

827
00:50:08,880 --> 00:50:13,920
Speaker 1: Any allegations or grow to me are completely unfounded, completely untrue.

828
00:50:14,120 --> 00:50:16,640
Speaker 1: What happened to these women that I again have never met,

829
00:50:16,960 --> 00:50:21,600
Speaker 1: is a tragedy, and anyone living in town that you

830
00:50:21,680 --> 00:50:23,480
Speaker 1: want to ask will tell you that I have not

831
00:50:23,600 --> 00:50:27,279
Speaker 1: been with these people. Again. To rewind that a bit,

832
00:50:27,760 --> 00:50:32,200
Speaker 1: anyone living in town can tell you I was not involved.

833
00:50:33,160 --> 00:50:36,720
Speaker 1: Brown also found that law enforcement's own witnesses to the murders,

834
00:50:36,760 --> 00:50:40,239
Speaker 1: the ones who weren't later killed, believe that members of

835
00:50:40,280 --> 00:50:43,839
Speaker 1: the police force themselves are either directly responsible or know

836
00:50:43,960 --> 00:50:48,919
Speaker 1: who is and aren't saying anything. As of today's episode,

837
00:50:49,040 --> 00:50:52,720
Speaker 1: the murders remain, like the murders in our earlier cases,

838
00:50:52,920 --> 00:50:54,279
Speaker 1: officially unsolved.

839
00:50:54,480 --> 00:50:58,080
Speaker 5: You mentioned True Detective before this one is the story

840
00:50:58,600 --> 00:51:00,800
Speaker 5: was the basis for some of the rights of that season,

841
00:51:00,840 --> 00:51:02,400
Speaker 5: like the good season True Detectives.

842
00:51:02,880 --> 00:51:05,880
Speaker 1: Well, you know, it's It's interesting because a lot of people,

843
00:51:06,000 --> 00:51:11,200
Speaker 1: both fans of True Detective and people who would witness

844
00:51:11,400 --> 00:51:15,560
Speaker 1: this dark story unfolding, felt that, uh, what's his name,

845
00:51:15,640 --> 00:51:21,520
Speaker 1: Nick Pisoloato. They believe that he had taken inspiration from this.

846
00:51:21,840 --> 00:51:24,640
Speaker 1: For his part, he says that he was not aware

847
00:51:24,840 --> 00:51:28,319
Speaker 1: of these murders even though he was located in the

848
00:51:28,400 --> 00:51:28,920
Speaker 1: rough area.

849
00:51:29,080 --> 00:51:32,560
Speaker 2: He got danged for ripping off some other source material too.

850
00:51:33,040 --> 00:51:34,800
Speaker 1: I believe Yellow King, right, well.

851
00:51:34,640 --> 00:51:37,640
Speaker 5: Nothing, The Yellow King was definitely referenced like as a

852
00:51:37,640 --> 00:51:41,120
Speaker 5: work of fiction in the in the plot line. But

853
00:51:41,160 --> 00:51:44,280
Speaker 5: I think there was another like a philosopher or something

854
00:51:44,360 --> 00:51:46,799
Speaker 5: who he kind of stole from verbatim in some of

855
00:51:46,800 --> 00:51:51,279
Speaker 5: the things that Cole, the Matthew McConaughey character said. It

856
00:51:51,360 --> 00:51:53,000
Speaker 5: was a thing that came out in an article right

857
00:51:53,040 --> 00:51:55,480
Speaker 5: when that was really hot, and I remember it was

858
00:51:55,520 --> 00:51:57,360
Speaker 5: not particularly flattering.

859
00:51:57,400 --> 00:52:01,680
Speaker 1: Right, Yes, I remember that Thomas Legaudi, Yes, Thomas Leggatti

860
00:52:02,320 --> 00:52:06,880
Speaker 1: a very dark philosophical horror writer as well. Yeah, I

861
00:52:06,920 --> 00:52:10,080
Speaker 1: remember when we were talking about the article off air

862
00:52:10,280 --> 00:52:13,960
Speaker 1: because we all we all stopped work because there was

863
00:52:14,000 --> 00:52:16,440
Speaker 1: such true detective nuts that we had to we had

864
00:52:16,440 --> 00:52:18,160
Speaker 1: to convene an emergency summit.

865
00:52:18,400 --> 00:52:20,400
Speaker 2: No, no, not Nick.

866
00:52:20,520 --> 00:52:24,359
Speaker 1: But yeah, for that part. And I think it is

867
00:52:24,400 --> 00:52:29,000
Speaker 1: important to mention that this was not the only accusation

868
00:52:29,480 --> 00:52:35,120
Speaker 1: of this author taking ideas from other people. But for

869
00:52:35,200 --> 00:52:38,480
Speaker 1: this part, the author says that he was unaware of

870
00:52:38,520 --> 00:52:45,720
Speaker 1: this uh, and the connections to Ethan Brown's articles were

871
00:52:46,200 --> 00:52:51,840
Speaker 1: somewhat coincidental or entirely coincidental, would be Pisilado's argument. But

872
00:52:52,880 --> 00:52:59,080
Speaker 1: regardless of what inspirational fount he drank from, it remains

873
00:52:59,120 --> 00:53:02,000
Speaker 1: the case that these these murders are unsolved. The beer

874
00:53:02,080 --> 00:53:06,400
Speaker 1: Man murders are. I guess now they're officially unsolved since

875
00:53:06,520 --> 00:53:09,200
Speaker 1: the one case got turned over.

876
00:53:09,360 --> 00:53:11,319
Speaker 5: Yeah, I get they let that guy sell the rights

877
00:53:11,320 --> 00:53:13,840
Speaker 5: to his story and open a food truck, so they

878
00:53:13,920 --> 00:53:15,800
Speaker 5: must be on to the next thing. But I couldn't

879
00:53:15,800 --> 00:53:19,480
Speaker 5: find anything more recent than just that guy walking.

880
00:53:19,320 --> 00:53:21,880
Speaker 2: So I guess they're back to the grindstone.

881
00:53:22,280 --> 00:53:25,839
Speaker 1: And in several of the cases outlined above, it is

882
00:53:26,040 --> 00:53:29,000
Speaker 1: almost entirely certain that the killer why they're never be

883
00:53:29,120 --> 00:53:34,000
Speaker 1: caught or never be convicted in court. It's true that

884
00:53:34,040 --> 00:53:36,839
Speaker 1: there are additional cases wherein a killer is revealed after

885
00:53:36,920 --> 00:53:40,239
Speaker 1: their death or while confessing on their deathbed. But going

886
00:53:40,239 --> 00:53:46,240
Speaker 1: to our earlier point about people falsely confessing to things,

887
00:53:46,560 --> 00:53:51,960
Speaker 1: there's also this troubling phenomenon wherein someone, perhaps due to

888
00:53:52,920 --> 00:53:57,480
Speaker 1: the dementia of age or to some other desire right,

889
00:53:58,000 --> 00:54:02,240
Speaker 1: some condition or desire, they will false confess to something

890
00:54:02,280 --> 00:54:07,000
Speaker 1: they never did, and them people say, well, maybe they

891
00:54:07,040 --> 00:54:10,359
Speaker 1: were this uncaught person. But in this case, in these

892
00:54:10,440 --> 00:54:13,359
Speaker 1: cases rather the murderers listed in this episode have not

893
00:54:13,400 --> 00:54:17,480
Speaker 1: been caught. Several of them walk free as we record this.

894
00:54:18,160 --> 00:54:21,680
Speaker 1: I don't know if we should add a moral to this.

895
00:54:21,760 --> 00:54:24,200
Speaker 1: I don't know if there is one. I think maybe

896
00:54:24,320 --> 00:54:27,960
Speaker 1: instead we add a call for your help, both on

897
00:54:28,080 --> 00:54:33,360
Speaker 1: behalf of the survivors and behalf of your fellow listeners,

898
00:54:33,480 --> 00:54:37,239
Speaker 1: and on our behalf as well. Do you live near

899
00:54:37,320 --> 00:54:40,719
Speaker 1: any of these areas where you alive while these crimes

900
00:54:41,080 --> 00:54:44,120
Speaker 1: were taking place. In the course of our research for

901
00:54:44,160 --> 00:54:48,560
Speaker 1: this episode, you know, we found numerous numerous cases of

902
00:54:48,800 --> 00:54:52,600
Speaker 1: unsolved crimes from say the seventeen hundreds or the eighteen hundreds,

903
00:54:52,840 --> 00:54:59,040
Speaker 1: well before criminologists had even attempted to make a term

904
00:54:59,239 --> 00:55:03,759
Speaker 1: to encapsule this sort of practice. But those crimes have

905
00:55:03,880 --> 00:55:06,920
Speaker 1: even less of a chance of being solved. These crimes, well,

906
00:55:06,960 --> 00:55:10,760
Speaker 1: they have a very very very slim hope of being solved,

907
00:55:11,360 --> 00:55:14,680
Speaker 1: are still not completely impossible to crack today.

908
00:55:15,400 --> 00:55:18,440
Speaker 4: So right to us on social media where we are

909
00:55:18,640 --> 00:55:22,040
Speaker 4: at conspiracy stuff on Twitter and Facebook, we.

910
00:55:21,960 --> 00:55:24,880
Speaker 5: Also have a new Facebook group called Here's where it

911
00:55:24,920 --> 00:55:27,480
Speaker 5: Gets Crazy, because that's the place where it gets crazy

912
00:55:27,520 --> 00:55:29,920
Speaker 5: is in that Facebook group, and you can, you know,

913
00:55:30,080 --> 00:55:31,480
Speaker 5: you can sign up and then we'll send us a

914
00:55:31,520 --> 00:55:33,280
Speaker 5: pin and if we think you've got.

915
00:55:33,120 --> 00:55:38,480
Speaker 2: The stuff, we'll accept you. Yeah, spoiler alert, We accept.

916
00:55:38,239 --> 00:55:41,359
Speaker 4: Everybody we do. It's a great place to discuss an

917
00:55:41,400 --> 00:55:44,280
Speaker 4: episode if you just want to talk with somebody else

918
00:55:44,480 --> 00:55:48,000
Speaker 4: about it, and maybe nobody in your close family or

919
00:55:48,080 --> 00:55:51,919
Speaker 4: friend group is interested in a specific thing, go there.

920
00:55:52,120 --> 00:55:54,360
Speaker 4: There will be people who want to talk with you about.

921
00:55:54,120 --> 00:55:56,720
Speaker 5: It, and I guarantee it has the potential to create

922
00:55:56,760 --> 00:56:00,319
Speaker 5: some fodder for future episodes and future discussions right here

923
00:56:00,400 --> 00:56:01,000
Speaker 5: on the show.

924
00:56:02,480 --> 00:56:05,360
Speaker 4: And that's the end of this classic episode. If you

925
00:56:05,440 --> 00:56:09,520
Speaker 4: have any thoughts or questions about this episode, you can

926
00:56:09,560 --> 00:56:12,160
Speaker 4: get into contact with us in a number of different ways.

927
00:56:12,360 --> 00:56:13,919
Speaker 4: One of the best is to give us a call.

928
00:56:13,960 --> 00:56:18,080
Speaker 4: Our number is one eight three three st d WYTK.

929
00:56:18,600 --> 00:56:20,359
Speaker 4: If you don't want to do that, you can send

930
00:56:20,440 --> 00:56:21,840
Speaker 4: us a good old fashioned email.

931
00:56:22,080 --> 00:56:26,239
Speaker 1: We are conspiracy at iHeartRadio dot com.

932
00:56:26,400 --> 00:56:28,480
Speaker 4: Stuff they Don't Want You to Know is a production

933
00:56:28,560 --> 00:56:33,120
Speaker 4: of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio, app,

934
00:56:33,200 --> 00:56:36,040
Speaker 4: Apple podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.