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Speaker 1: In media res opening to a podcast like we were

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Speaker 1: having a fun conversation that we just let you win

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Speaker 1: on halfway through. Good times. I'm Robert Evans. This is

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Speaker 1: Behind the Bastards easily our best opening yet. Uh. My

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Speaker 1: guest again, as is always my guest when I actually

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Speaker 1: nail an introduction, Mr Paul F. Tompkins, Paul, Hello, everyone,

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Speaker 1: Oh did you enjoy that absolutely real conversation that we

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Speaker 1: left let the audience on halfway through. I haven't had

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Speaker 1: a conversation like that in such a long time, and

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Speaker 1: it's it's refreshing. It reminds me of my humanity again,

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Speaker 1: So thank you. Yeah you really bared your soul there,

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Speaker 1: um and and yeah you made it easy. I feel honored.

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Speaker 1: I feel honored. Paul. You are we had when we

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Speaker 1: had you on last time for our Rush Limbaugh episodes.

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Speaker 1: Somebody in the sub credit is like I didn't initially

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Speaker 1: recognize his name, and then I looked him up and

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Speaker 1: realized that he had entirely shaped my generation's ideas on comedy. Um,

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Speaker 1: just I feel accurate to you because you've you've you've

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Speaker 1: been in so many like uh, so many like Mr Show. Um,

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Speaker 1: you did a bit for the Daily Show. Back in

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Speaker 1: the day, you did some comedy bang bang stuff. You

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Speaker 1: were on did the Dead Author's podcast, Bow Jack Horsemen. Obviously, UM,

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Speaker 1: you just just just a just an an incredibly accomplished comedian. Um.

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Speaker 1: So thank you for dining to be on our show again.

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Speaker 1: It's Paul to start us off. I got a question

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Speaker 1: for you. How do you feel about drugs and alcohol?

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Speaker 1: M hmm. I think that in uh, when used responsibly, Uh,

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Speaker 1: that ain't nothing but a good time. Sure. And you know,

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Speaker 1: obviously sometimes people have problems strus are alcohol and And

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Speaker 1: what would you say about the idea like, obviously very

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Speaker 1: reasonable for a group of people, you know, especially if

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Speaker 1: they feel like the medical system may have let them down,

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Speaker 1: to come together and work together as like a community

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Speaker 1: to try to deal with their struggles with drugs and alcohol.

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Speaker 1: Perfectly reasonable, right, absolutely. I know many people who are

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Speaker 1: in such programs and it works very well for them.

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Speaker 1: It usually does. Now, Paul, I have a question for

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Speaker 1: you that relates directly to the subject of the article.

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Speaker 1: If a group of people were to do that, how

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Speaker 1: large of marine corps do you think they would need

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Speaker 1: to punish their enemies who I haven't thought about this before.

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Speaker 1: I my my instinct is to say, uh, they wouldn't

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Speaker 1: need one at all. They wouldn't need one at all.

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Speaker 1: You think most addiction recovery programs get by without a

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Speaker 1: Marine Corps. That's my I mean, look, I don't know

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Speaker 1: about all of them, but to my knowledge, they seem

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Speaker 1: to be doing just fine without them as far as

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Speaker 1: I know, as yeah, I would, that's accurate. Uh. And

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Speaker 1: obviously we're very pro people getting recovery here. We're talking, however,

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Speaker 1: today about an addiction rehab program that went as off

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Speaker 1: the rails as it is possible for one of those

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Speaker 1: things to be. This is like the twenty year journey

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Speaker 1: of a guy who wanted to help people get off

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Speaker 1: of heroin, uh, and eventually built his own army and

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Speaker 1: attempted to take over large junks of California. So, um,

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Speaker 1: have you ever heard of Sinnan on s Y N

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Speaker 1: A n O. Is That name sounds familiar to me,

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Speaker 1: but I don't know why. It is not the first

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Speaker 1: addiction recovery program, but the first probably the first large

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Speaker 1: organized narcotics recovery program. Right, Um, And for everything kind

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Speaker 1: of that happens in this episode to make sense, we're

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Speaker 1: gonna have to travel back in time a little bit

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Speaker 1: to talk about kind of the history of human understanding

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Speaker 1: of addiction and addiction recovery. Obviously, people have been doing

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Speaker 1: drugs longer than we've been doing anything else, including like

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Speaker 1: even being friends with dogs. Like we've been getting high forever.

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Speaker 1: It's just something we've we were doing it, you know,

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Speaker 1: back before we were people people like getting wasted. Um, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and primitive science meant that it was pretty hard back

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Speaker 1: in the day to have the kind of addictions that

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Speaker 1: we have now. Right, If all you have is like

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Speaker 1: beer and watered down wine, alcoholism is going to be

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Speaker 1: less extreme than when you have ever clear and you

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Speaker 1: know that kind of ship right one fifty one rum

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Speaker 1: means it's a lot easier to have like a serious problem. Likewise,

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Speaker 1: you know, the way indigenous tribes in North America, Central

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Speaker 1: America it used tobacco, It wasn't really unhealthy if you're

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Speaker 1: doing it occasionally as part of a religious ritual. That's

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Speaker 1: not nearly the same as as burning two packs and

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Speaker 1: Marborough's a day. Right, We're talking about a wildly different

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Speaker 1: kind of thing. Um. People obviously had drug problems five thousand,

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Speaker 1: ten thousand years ago, right, But it was a lot

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Speaker 1: less noticeable, and it was less noticed because especially in civilization,

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Speaker 1: everyone was buzzed a lot of the time because like

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Speaker 1: better was deadly, and especially if you're in a city, right,

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Speaker 1: like you're living in ancient Rome, you don't want to

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Speaker 1: drink that fucking water coming through the aqueducts. You're gonna

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Speaker 1: you're gonna pour it into wine, so the wine will

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Speaker 1: kill most of what's bad and you're not gonna be

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Speaker 1: wasted all the time because it's actually there were people that,

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Speaker 1: like you talk about like ancient Roman marias around intoxication.

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Speaker 1: It was considered kind of like ghosh to be too drunk.

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Speaker 1: Like obviously there were times celebrations, festivals, but most of

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Speaker 1: the time everyone's just kind of a bit buzzed, right,

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Speaker 1: And the same thing with beer and other cultures and

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Speaker 1: other parts of Europe. Um. The first documented use of

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Speaker 1: distilled liquor in Europe didn't come around until the twelfth century,

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Speaker 1: and that was not something you would have drunk for fun.

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Speaker 1: It was part of an Italian medical school textbook. Obviously,

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Speaker 1: liquor has a lot of medicinal benefits, like just for

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Speaker 1: like you can sterilize ship with it, you know, um

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Speaker 1: there were there's debate over who the first kind of

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Speaker 1: successful distillation where it was. Some people say that it

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Speaker 1: was in first or second century China. There's evidence of

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Speaker 1: that the earliest like recognizable still and I think it

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Speaker 1: was kind of similar to a modern reflux. Still Um

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Speaker 1: was probably developed in the eighth century a d by

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Speaker 1: an Arabic alchemist named Abu musa Ya Beer even highen um. Now,

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Speaker 1: whoever you give credit for the first distilled liquor, it

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Speaker 1: didn't become a common recreational product until the six hundred,

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Speaker 1: so pretty recent, right, people have not been drinking liquor

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Speaker 1: all that. Beer and wine or beer and wine were first.

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Speaker 1: Oh beer, we've had beer and wine forever. Be beer

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Speaker 1: dates back to the the very first human civilization. There's

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Speaker 1: anthropologists will argue that we started building cities to brew beer.

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Speaker 1: People would make beer as part of these like when

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Speaker 1: people were nomadic tribes to have these like big festivals.

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Speaker 1: But beer is a complicated product. You would need to

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Speaker 1: make bread because the first bread, the first beer was

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Speaker 1: made with a kind of bread called bapier as like

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Speaker 1: the basis of the beer, and it it requires a lot,

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Speaker 1: there's a lot of there's a logistical tail to making beer,

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Speaker 1: and so one of the anthropologists will make, yeah, that's no, No,

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Speaker 1: you're a straight wine guy. Just some rotten grapes. I

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Speaker 1: don't want. I don't want to make my own stuff. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: well that's why people started making cities, so that it

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Speaker 1: was easier to have someone else make the beer and

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Speaker 1: you just have plenty of it. That's an argument some

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Speaker 1: anthropologist will make. But yeah, it goes back a while.

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Speaker 1: Liquor much more recent because you have to like have

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Speaker 1: no head to do some science to make liquor. You

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Speaker 1: gotta have like a still. They're not it's not. I

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Speaker 1: mean it is pretty I used to make liquor, and

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Speaker 1: I was always wasted when I was making liquor. Caught

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Speaker 1: my kitchen on fire five or six times, which is

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Speaker 1: why stills are illegal. Um, it would just be spurting

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Speaker 1: ever clear basically out of these like gaps in the

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Speaker 1: welds because we welded it well drunk and um so yeah,

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Speaker 1: six hundreds we get liquor, and um it takes off.

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Speaker 1: People are real big fans of liquor. I'm sure that's

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Speaker 1: a surprise to anyone who I don't know lives in

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Speaker 1: California where you can buy liquor, anywhere you can buy

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Speaker 1: a scratch off to This is not like a Barcelona

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Speaker 1: story where one guy did this one thing and then

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Speaker 1: everybody else did it to be cool. This was immediately

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Speaker 1: it was popular with everyone. Yeah, at one it was

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Speaker 1: popular with everyone. And it also immediately becomes a problem.

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Speaker 1: As soon as there's liquor, you have for a long time,

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Speaker 1: people don't. There's not really a mass cultural conception of

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Speaker 1: alcoholism is an issue. Then liquor comes around, and by

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Speaker 1: the seventeen hundreds, people are talking about alcohol addiction as

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Speaker 1: a serious social problem, like it's that quick. UM. The

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Speaker 1: first alcoholic recovery program where sobriety circles, that's what they

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Speaker 1: were called, UM, which were kind of alcoholic mutual aid society,

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Speaker 1: so communities of sufferers working together to deal with and

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Speaker 1: try to get over their addiction. And they seem to

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Speaker 1: have been created first by members of various Native American tribes. Right,

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Speaker 1: alcoholism becomes a serious problems introduced by Europeans, becomes a

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Speaker 1: big problem with indigenous tribes, and so the first organized

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Speaker 1: attempts addiction recovery. We're indigenous in nature, and they would

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Speaker 1: often use traditional indigenous healing practices, both like natural metal,

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Speaker 1: both like indigenous medicine, but also um like rituals to

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Speaker 1: kind of treat alcoholism UM. Now in in seventeen eighty four,

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Speaker 1: the first kind of European white I don't know, whatever

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Speaker 1: you call it physician, Western physician to acknowledge alcoholism was

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Speaker 1: Benjamin rush Or. He'd not the first to acknowledge it,

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Speaker 1: but the first to call it a disease, right, which

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Speaker 1: is basically our modern understanding UM as opposed to like

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Speaker 1: a moral failing, this is an illness that a person

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Speaker 1: has UM. His work helped to create the modern temperance movement,

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Speaker 1: which why the early nineteen hundreds had evolved into the

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Speaker 1: prohibition movement. Now throughout the eighteen hundreds. In the early

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Speaker 1: nineteen hundreds, society gradually gained an understanding that drug abuse

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Speaker 1: of all kinds could be problematic, right, that it wasn't

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Speaker 1: just alcohol. You could be addicted to a bunch of

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Speaker 1: shit um And virtually every like Western attempt to treat

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Speaker 1: drug and alcohol addiction was horrible. Uh. Up until the

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Speaker 1: modern day. Those indigenous sobriety circles were probably like the

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Speaker 1: still the most reasonable program ever created. UM. One common

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Speaker 1: treatment for addicts was to throw them into facilities patterned

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Speaker 1: off of insane asylums. Basically, they were like, Okay, drug

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Speaker 1: addiction is the same as being insane. Uh so we'll

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Speaker 1: just we'll lock you in a prison. Um, that'll solve it.

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Speaker 1: What for like forever? Or was it like until you

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Speaker 1: dried out, you went through the all the horrible detoxing

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Speaker 1: on your own, and then you were fine to leave.

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Speaker 1: I think it would depend. Some people certainly didn't get out.

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Speaker 1: And also we're talking the eighteen hundreds, so a lot

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Speaker 1: of people just died there of diseases due to the

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Speaker 1: horrific conditions you know, Um, because a prison is basically

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Speaker 1: a ptreot dish I mean, still is um. The New

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Speaker 1: York State Inebriate Asylum opened in eighteen sixty four, and

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Speaker 1: that was like the first Yeah, I know, right, not great. UM.

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Speaker 1: Other doctors treated addiction with a variety of snake oil

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Speaker 1: medications like doctor Killey is double chloride of gold KIV

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Speaker 1: and drunkenness. Um, take some gold that'll stop you from drinking.

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Speaker 1: They did not know about gold schlager. Um. I'm sorry

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Speaker 1: that's that's just not work. So in the eighteen eighties,

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Speaker 1: Sigmund Freud turned his genius mind to the problem with

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Speaker 1: alcoholism and morphine addiction, and he eventually came up with

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Speaker 1: a genius solution for treating both of these addictions. You

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Speaker 1: want to guess what it was, oh, locking people away?

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Speaker 1: I don't know what would Floyd's approach be. He gave

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Speaker 1: them huge doses of cocaine that has no addictive potential.

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Speaker 1: Cocaine at least addictive drug evert a miracle drug. Absolutely, yeah,

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Speaker 1: cocaine the drug with no problems. So by the eighteen

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Speaker 1: nineties the worm had fully turned and like Benjamin rushing

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Speaker 1: on the sev being like, this isn't this is an illness?

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Speaker 1: By the eighteen nineties they're like, now, this isn't a

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Speaker 1: fucking illness. This is a criminal behavior and it needs

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Speaker 1: to be punished as such. Inebriate homes and asylums closed,

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Speaker 1: and alcoholics were sent to drunk tanks or foul wards

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Speaker 1: of hospitals. Ward what I know, right? Why everything was

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Speaker 1: so everything was titled so mean back then they were

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Speaker 1: real dicks back in the day. You don't have to

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Speaker 1: say you have to call it the foul ward. No,

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Speaker 1: now it is the eighteen hundreds. We're going to be

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Speaker 1: shitty about everything now. Of course, these kind of treatments,

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Speaker 1: the insane asylums, the prisons, the foul wards, these were

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Speaker 1: where we you sent poor addicts. If you had money

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Speaker 1: and an addiction, you would go to the first celebrity

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Speaker 1: rehab facilities. And the very first celebrity rehab facility was

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Speaker 1: the Charles B. Town's Hospital, which opened in nineteen o one.

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Speaker 1: It treated alcoholics with belladonna, which is a poison. Like

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Speaker 1: what was the what was the They must have known it,

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Speaker 1: like what yeah, yeah, I don't know. Maybe there were

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Speaker 1: maybe it just they were trying to make you sick

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Speaker 1: enough that you drank it with the alcohol and it.

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Speaker 1: I didn't do enough research into belladonna therapy, but I

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Speaker 1: don't recommend taking belladonna um. And it was again, this

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Speaker 1: was for really rich people. It cost three hundred and

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Speaker 1: fifty dollars a day in nineteen o one, which is

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Speaker 1: about fifty six hundred dollars a day in modern currencies,

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Speaker 1: like Betty Ford clinic type ship right, Like like I

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Speaker 1: don't know if it worked or not, but you're not

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Speaker 1: going there if you're not rich. Now, one of Charles's

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Speaker 1: most frequent patients was a fellow named Bill Wilson, who

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Speaker 1: would go on to found an organization called Alcoholics Anonymous,

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Speaker 1: which you can drive a direct line and you know,

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Speaker 1: Alcoholics Anonymous. There's a lot of really valid criticisms of

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Speaker 1: the organization. I know a lot of people who say

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Speaker 1: it saved their life too. I'm not going to make

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Speaker 1: a determination one way or the other on it, but

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Speaker 1: you can draw a real direct line between the basic

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Speaker 1: idea of a A and those indigenous sobriety circles, which

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Speaker 1: I do find interesting. This basic idea that a community,

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Speaker 1: a communal environment is the best way to deal with

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Speaker 1: addiction and probably is. And support, yes, empathy, just just

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Speaker 1: you knowing that someone else understands what you're going through

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Speaker 1: and that they've been there themselves. Um, not institutionalization, not criminalization,

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Speaker 1: but a community support. Yeah, and maybe not poison and

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Speaker 1: maybe not maybe maybe that's not got to help. Um. Now,

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Speaker 1: by the time a A was created, and it wasn't

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Speaker 1: just Bill Wilson, I think there were four or five

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Speaker 1: guys who started it. It was created nineteen thirty five,

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Speaker 1: and at that point the criminalization of addiction was at

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Speaker 1: a very advanced stage. In the nineteen tens, U s

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Speaker 1: States had started passing laws that legislates that legislated the

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Speaker 1: mandatory sterilization of alcoholics and addicts. Um. Yeah, one of

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Speaker 1: the fun things this is you're going to get a

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Speaker 1: it out of this, Paul, This is this is fun,

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Speaker 1: some fun history, real real good yucks in this this

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Speaker 1: bit of history. After World War Two, when they found

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Speaker 1: out about all of the horrific crimes of the Nazi

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Speaker 1: concentration camps and they were starting to try to punish people.

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Speaker 1: One group of people they didn't punish were the Nazi

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Speaker 1: doctors who would sterilize the mentally ill and drug addicts,

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Speaker 1: because that was being done in the US too, so

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Speaker 1: they were like, we can't punish these guys were doing

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Speaker 1: the same thing. A lot of Nazi doctors got off

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Speaker 1: scott free because yeah, it's it's it's history. It's always telling.

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Speaker 1: The lesson is, well, we're not gonna stop doing that.

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Speaker 1: We're we're looking at monsters and seeing what they do.

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Speaker 1: We also do one of those things. So we're just

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Speaker 1: gonna look the other way rather than stop. So we're

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Speaker 1: just gonna We're fine with that part. I mean, it

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Speaker 1: is it is kind of like the fact that, um uh,

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Speaker 1: when they were liberating the con centration camps, in a

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Speaker 1: lot of cases, they didn't free the homosexuals because that

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Speaker 1: was still a crime in the societies. That we're freeing

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Speaker 1: the concentration camps anyway, time, you should never be looking

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Speaker 1: at the Nazis and saying even a broken clock. Yeah

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Speaker 1: exactly if you're thinking, well, maybe they had a point

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Speaker 1: about that, maybe that I agree with. So um nineteen tens,

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Speaker 1: you know, states are sterilizing alcoholics and addicts, and doctors

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Speaker 1: and asylums in prisons were Actually the way this was

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Speaker 1: phrased is that doctors um had the authority to a

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Speaker 1: sexualized individuals with drug and alcohol abuse problems. That's what

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Speaker 1: they called it, a sexualization UM. Now, Alcoholics Anonymous was

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Speaker 1: in many ways, as I said, a throwback to these

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Speaker 1: sobriety circles. But while where those were kind of very

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Speaker 1: based in Native American religion and medicine, a A was

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Speaker 1: based around the Emmanuel Movement, which was a psychologically based

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Speaker 1: approach to religious healing that started in nineteen oh six.

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Speaker 1: The primary ust of a manual movement treatments and thus

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Speaker 1: a A we're individual in group therapy. A A in

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Speaker 1: particular came to reject the clinical and institutional treatment for

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Speaker 1: addicts in favor of a bottom up structure. But the founder,

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Speaker 1: Bill Wilson described as quote benign anarchy. UM. The thrust

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Speaker 1: of this was that the individual branches of a A

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Speaker 1: were all self governing. They didn't have to report back

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Speaker 1: to a home office, they didn't have to follow identical

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Speaker 1: treatment methods, and they didn't have to have leaders. Usually, when,

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Speaker 1: especially when you have guys in this point like refer

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Speaker 1: to something as anarchy, they're kind of getting it wrong.

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Speaker 1: In this case, he's not because he is saying, we're

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Speaker 1: trying to dissolve power relationships. We don't think that the

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Speaker 1: right way to treat an addict is a situation where

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Speaker 1: a bunch of people are in power over them and

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Speaker 1: they're incarcerated or they're kind of under the thumb of

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Speaker 1: the state. We also don't think that there should be

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Speaker 1: leaders of this. It should everyone should be working together.

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Speaker 1: You know, it's a community effort. So really he's not

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Speaker 1: wrong when he when he says that this is when

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Speaker 1: he uses that term UM and his stated reason for

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Speaker 1: this bottom up approach was to prevent the formation of

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Speaker 1: cults of personality, which were very common and alternative medicine

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Speaker 1: at the time and also now. Unfortunately, in practice this

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Speaker 1: did not work today. One of the main valid complaints

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Speaker 1: against a A is that it can act as an

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Speaker 1: incubator for strongman and gurus who often engage in profound mental, physical,

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Speaker 1: and sexual abuse of their group members. This is a

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Speaker 1: problem that has been noted on a number of different

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Speaker 1: occasions in different a A A groups, and today the focus

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Speaker 1: of our episode is going to be on one of

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Speaker 1: those gurus. A man named Charles Dedoric now Charles Edwin

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Speaker 1: de Orck, was born in Toledo, Ohio, on March twenty nine, thirteen.

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Speaker 1: He was named for his father and was called Chuck

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Speaker 1: by his family. His namesake dad was a horrible alcoholic

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Speaker 1: who died in a drunk driving accident when Chuck was

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Speaker 1: four years old. When he was eight, his younger brother

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Speaker 1: died of influenza. Charles felt guilty and responsible for his

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Speaker 1: brother's death. I think it was the survival guilt thing,

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Speaker 1: and it was noted that he was never able to

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Speaker 1: ball with children again, even his own kids, which rough

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Speaker 1: upbringing here not an easy set of cards to draw.

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Speaker 1: Uh So, when he was twelve, his mother, Agnes Kuntz,

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Speaker 1: married a man that he despised. Now, Agnes was Agnes

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Speaker 1: was a prominent singer, and I don't think the family

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Speaker 1: had huge financial issues as a kid like they seemed

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Speaker 1: to have gotten along. Okay um, But he's really unhappy

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Speaker 1: with this guy she marries. And he's also stifled by

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Speaker 1: his upbringing because she is a devout Roman Catholic and

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Speaker 1: she raises him that way. He later recalled quote, I

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Speaker 1: believed literally that I would go to Hell if I

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Speaker 1: didn't go to church on Sundays. Um. So, when he

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Speaker 1: was fourteen, Charles comes across a copy of H. G.

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Speaker 1: Wells is the Outline of History that had been owned

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Speaker 1: by his stepfather. Are you familiar to all with this book? No,

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Speaker 1: I've never heard of it. It's an interesting it's an

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Speaker 1: interesting book. It was an attempt by H. G. Wells

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Speaker 1: to chronicle the entire history of the world from the

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Speaker 1: Neolithic period up to World War One. Now, in the book,

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Speaker 1: Wells claimed, quote, the history of mankind is a history

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Speaker 1: of more or less blind endeavors to conceive a common

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Speaker 1: purpose in relation to which all men may live happily

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Speaker 1: and to create and develop a common stock of knowledge

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Speaker 1: which may serve and illuminate that purpose. Um. And it's

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Speaker 1: so it was kind of a it was an optimistic

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Speaker 1: but also atheistic look at human history, right, Like, he's

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Speaker 1: not looking at this through religious lens, and he's I

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Speaker 1: think it still was a Eurocentric lens, but I don't

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Speaker 1: think he was trying to look at it that way. Um.

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Speaker 1: And one major theme of the book was the development

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Speaker 1: of free intelligence, which he credited originally to bards common

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Speaker 1: to all the quote aryan speaking people's who extended the

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Speaker 1: power of the human mind by traveling and thus expanding

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Speaker 1: the development of language. This book has a huge influence

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Speaker 1: on debt Oric, who later later claimed that after reading it,

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Speaker 1: he quote became a militant atheist almost overnight. So he

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Speaker 1: reads this book and it just it pills him to

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Speaker 1: he used the violence of the time. Um. And the

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Speaker 1: downside of this is he starts drinking almost immediately after

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Speaker 1: he reads this book, Right, he kind of goes whole

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Speaker 1: hog against his upbringing. Right, Yeah, I'm an atheist time

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Speaker 1: to get That's that was sort of how I went

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Speaker 1: to I think I think I think about it now.

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Speaker 1: It was it was a little slow, it was a

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Speaker 1: little more gradual, but definitely that was the line. No.

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Speaker 1: I mean, within about six months of realizing I was

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Speaker 1: an atheist, I was taking hallucinogens every weekend, so I

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Speaker 1: can't relate. Um, yes, it's not this, yeah, exactly. At

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Speaker 1: this point, he's a thoroughly sympathetic character. Um. Now, yeah,

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Speaker 1: let's remember this, this is the show that it is.

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Speaker 1: Let's let's just stop a moment and really enjoyed this

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Speaker 1: time with this guy before we continue. Yeah, and you know, Paul,

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Speaker 1: let's stop a moment while we're enjoying this time before

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Speaker 1: the horrible ship happens, and also think about products and services, because, Paul,

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Speaker 1: you know what else is the result of human beings

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Speaker 1: engaging in more or less blind endeavors to conceive a

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Speaker 1: common purpose in relation to which all men may live happily. Robert,

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Speaker 1: I wish you would tell me the products and services

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Speaker 1: and support this podcast. That's what they all do. Mm hmmm,

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Speaker 1: here we go. Uh we are back, and Paul, before

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Speaker 1: we get back into this story, there's a matter of

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Speaker 1: serious importance that I have to discuss with you. Have

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Speaker 1: you looked at your Wikipedia page recently. Oh no, I

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Speaker 1: have not. I there's a photo of you from two

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Speaker 1: thousand twelve on it, and you look a lot like

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Speaker 1: Burt Reynolds. I mean, that is the high possible compliment

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Speaker 1: I can possibly give someone. Is it the picture? Yeah? Yeah,

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Speaker 1: turtleneck and uh yeah, it's god one of the best

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Speaker 1: pictures ever taken of me, and God bless whoever decided

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Speaker 1: that should be my picture. It's a really good picture.

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Speaker 1: We should all be so lucky to be immortalized looking

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Speaker 1: like Burt Reynolds. Uh. All right, So we're talking about

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Speaker 1: the upbringing of Charles Dederick, um dead rich whatever. I

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Speaker 1: never do quite as much research as I should do

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Speaker 1: on how to pronounce things. But what are you gonna do?

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Speaker 1: Listen to another podcast that exists it? Yeah, so Charles,

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Speaker 1: one of the men who was most thoroughly chronicled. Charles

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Speaker 1: Dederic credits the fact that he started drinking and the

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Speaker 1: fact that he became an atheist less to this H. G.

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Speaker 1: Wells book and more to his mother's second marriage. Right, So,

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Speaker 1: he says, I read this book and it led me

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Speaker 1: to both of you know, to be an atheist, and

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Speaker 1: I kind of started drinking not long after. Other people

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Speaker 1: who have chronicled desciples say, well, he was really angry

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Speaker 1: at his mom for marrying this guy. His mom was

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Speaker 1: super religious, so he rejected her religion. And you know,

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Speaker 1: drinking is a pretty normal part of teenage rebellions. He's

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Speaker 1: an unhappy teen either way. It's probably a mix of things.

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Speaker 1: You know, why why not do gift? Yeah? Why not both? Right? Yeah? Um,

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Speaker 1: whatever the case, he very quickly developed a serious drinking problem.

425
00:24:28,840 --> 00:24:30,840
Speaker 1: He's one again. You know, it's a disease. He's one

426
00:24:30,840 --> 00:24:33,720
Speaker 1: of those people who it's not just heavy drinking, it's

427
00:24:33,760 --> 00:24:37,919
Speaker 1: immediately like life destruction kind of drinking. Um. He was

428
00:24:38,000 --> 00:24:40,760
Speaker 1: extremely bright and in fact, in high school he earned

429
00:24:40,760 --> 00:24:44,719
Speaker 1: admittance to Notre Dame. But once he graduated and started college,

430
00:24:44,720 --> 00:24:47,439
Speaker 1: he flunked out very quickly because he just couldn't couldn't

431
00:24:47,480 --> 00:24:49,160
Speaker 1: keep a ship together. You know, he was he had

432
00:24:49,160 --> 00:24:51,480
Speaker 1: a he had a problem. Um. He next got a

433
00:24:51,600 --> 00:24:54,639
Speaker 1: job with the Melon family of Carnegie Mellon Fame, but

434
00:24:54,760 --> 00:24:57,320
Speaker 1: he lost it and several other good jobs. Again, dude

435
00:24:57,359 --> 00:25:01,199
Speaker 1: to his his his horrible, horrible alcohol is um. Um.

436
00:25:01,200 --> 00:25:04,080
Speaker 1: He got married, but his abusive drunken behavior destroyed that

437
00:25:04,160 --> 00:25:07,920
Speaker 1: relationship too. In the early nineteen forties, at age twenty nine,

438
00:25:07,960 --> 00:25:10,720
Speaker 1: he caught meningitis, which nearly killed him and left his

439
00:25:10,760 --> 00:25:13,000
Speaker 1: face partly paralyzed. He would spend the rest of his

440
00:25:13,080 --> 00:25:15,679
Speaker 1: life with a droopy I and a facial tick. So

441
00:25:15,680 --> 00:25:19,520
Speaker 1: by the time this guy's forty, he's had a rough life. Um,

442
00:25:19,560 --> 00:25:22,280
Speaker 1: you know, not not doing great. Um. And he kind

443
00:25:22,280 --> 00:25:24,880
Speaker 1: of decides that since his life in Ohio was a disaster,

444
00:25:25,280 --> 00:25:27,840
Speaker 1: he should probably funk off to California and become a

445
00:25:27,840 --> 00:25:32,680
Speaker 1: beach bum, which is a reasonable decision, absolutely perfect career

446
00:25:32,720 --> 00:25:36,560
Speaker 1: for an alcoholic. Yeah, yeah, yeah, we've we've all made

447
00:25:36,680 --> 00:25:39,720
Speaker 1: versions of this decision. Kind of everyone who moves out

448
00:25:39,760 --> 00:25:42,000
Speaker 1: west is like, well, ship's not working here, maybe it'll

449
00:25:42,040 --> 00:25:48,600
Speaker 1: be better where there's an ocean. Um, and it is.

450
00:25:49,200 --> 00:25:51,240
Speaker 1: I love the West Coast. But um, so he moves

451
00:25:51,280 --> 00:25:53,720
Speaker 1: to Santa Monica because back in those days, you could

452
00:25:53,760 --> 00:25:56,080
Speaker 1: afford to move to Santa Monica if your life was

453
00:25:56,119 --> 00:25:59,280
Speaker 1: a complete ship show. Um, as opposed to needing to

454
00:25:59,320 --> 00:26:01,119
Speaker 1: be a rich person in whose life is a complete

455
00:26:01,119 --> 00:26:04,600
Speaker 1: show to afford the rent. Now, um, he got a

456
00:26:04,680 --> 00:26:07,119
Speaker 1: job at a hardware store, which again, you could afford

457
00:26:07,119 --> 00:26:09,280
Speaker 1: to live in Santa Monica working at a hardware store

458
00:26:09,320 --> 00:26:13,399
Speaker 1: in the fifties. Um yeah, uh. And he remarried, but

459
00:26:13,440 --> 00:26:15,920
Speaker 1: he kept drinking in a second marriage fell apart two.

460
00:26:16,080 --> 00:26:18,159
Speaker 1: At one point a friend found him passed out on

461
00:26:18,200 --> 00:26:20,879
Speaker 1: the kitchen floor and told him, Fats, So, if you

462
00:26:20,920 --> 00:26:24,679
Speaker 1: don't go to Alcoholics Anonymous, you will die. Um, I

463
00:26:24,680 --> 00:26:29,000
Speaker 1: don't know if that is necessary. Doesn't that really necessary?

464
00:26:29,480 --> 00:26:32,480
Speaker 1: I mean when you play it back in your head later, like, ye,

465
00:26:32,600 --> 00:26:34,040
Speaker 1: he said I was going to die. Oh he also

466
00:26:34,080 --> 00:26:38,960
Speaker 1: called me fat. So he also called me fat. That

467
00:26:39,040 --> 00:26:44,359
Speaker 1: did not need to be in there. Yeah, my friends,

468
00:26:44,359 --> 00:26:51,120
Speaker 1: what he didn't, buddy person, I care about human anything. Well,

469
00:26:51,640 --> 00:26:54,400
Speaker 1: it was the fifties, so they hadn't invented the concept

470
00:26:54,400 --> 00:26:58,919
Speaker 1: of male friendships. Yet it was still justice. Yeah fine, hey, buddy,

471
00:26:58,920 --> 00:27:06,080
Speaker 1: old pal. So that's what he did. He goes to

472
00:27:06,119 --> 00:27:07,959
Speaker 1: a a uh and I'm gonna quote from l A

473
00:27:08,000 --> 00:27:11,040
Speaker 1: magazine here. Um quote. He floundered for the three years

474
00:27:11,040 --> 00:27:13,280
Speaker 1: in the ocean breeze before walking into his first meeting

475
00:27:13,320 --> 00:27:16,359
Speaker 1: of Alcoholics Anonymous part way through debt oric march to

476
00:27:16,400 --> 00:27:19,679
Speaker 1: the podium and shared with the group. People listened they laughed,

477
00:27:19,720 --> 00:27:22,720
Speaker 1: they applauded. Debt Oric was hooked. I went from one

478
00:27:22,800 --> 00:27:25,640
Speaker 1: a a meeting to another every night, he told psychiatrist

479
00:27:25,760 --> 00:27:28,600
Speaker 1: Daniel Carciel, one of a number of social scientists to

480
00:27:28,600 --> 00:27:31,400
Speaker 1: write books on signing on sending on in the nineteen sixties.

481
00:27:31,440 --> 00:27:33,440
Speaker 1: That's all I did. I was the first one to speak,

482
00:27:33,480 --> 00:27:36,760
Speaker 1: and I'd speak all night unless they stopped me. So

483
00:27:38,080 --> 00:27:40,360
Speaker 1: what you're seeing here is a couple of things. Number One,

484
00:27:40,440 --> 00:27:43,320
Speaker 1: this guy's mom is a is a very successful performer.

485
00:27:43,359 --> 00:27:46,160
Speaker 1: He clearly is a good performer, right. He's an engaging

486
00:27:46,200 --> 00:27:48,760
Speaker 1: He's able to like talk for hours at these meetings,

487
00:27:48,800 --> 00:27:50,560
Speaker 1: and I assume some people are, but a lot of

488
00:27:50,560 --> 00:27:53,240
Speaker 1: people just like listening to him. He's got that thing,

489
00:27:53,440 --> 00:27:56,960
Speaker 1: you know, that that that performers and cult leaders have. Um,

490
00:27:57,000 --> 00:27:59,800
Speaker 1: there's not as not as there's a thin line between

491
00:28:00,240 --> 00:28:02,639
Speaker 1: being a good stand up comedian and having what it

492
00:28:02,680 --> 00:28:05,399
Speaker 1: takes to be a cult leader. I mean not every

493
00:28:05,520 --> 00:28:08,040
Speaker 1: entertainer is a cult leader, but every cult leader isn't

494
00:28:08,119 --> 00:28:12,560
Speaker 1: entertainer mhm. And every entertainer has to do at least

495
00:28:12,640 --> 00:28:15,480
Speaker 1: elements of cult things, which is not inherently bad. Right,

496
00:28:15,480 --> 00:28:18,680
Speaker 1: there's good aspects to it. Yeah, a good party is

497
00:28:18,720 --> 00:28:21,199
Speaker 1: a cult that ends at midnight or so you know,

498
00:28:21,359 --> 00:28:25,359
Speaker 1: or two or three in the morning. Um, so yeah,

499
00:28:25,600 --> 00:28:27,800
Speaker 1: he becomes inn And what Charles does. This is the

500
00:28:27,800 --> 00:28:30,000
Speaker 1: thing you also see with some people, including some people

501
00:28:30,000 --> 00:28:32,160
Speaker 1: who credit A with saving their lives. He gets addicted

502
00:28:32,160 --> 00:28:35,600
Speaker 1: to the program, right, um, which is sometimes necessary. Sometimes

503
00:28:35,600 --> 00:28:37,840
Speaker 1: you have to replace one addiction with another before you

504
00:28:37,880 --> 00:28:41,480
Speaker 1: can you know. Um. And even though like a A

505
00:28:41,720 --> 00:28:44,160
Speaker 1: is really what saves him, he's still open to other

506
00:28:44,200 --> 00:28:46,800
Speaker 1: treatments for his disease, and he's still experimenting with other things.

507
00:28:46,840 --> 00:28:49,640
Speaker 1: In the nineteen fifty eight u se l A offers

508
00:28:49,720 --> 00:28:53,920
Speaker 1: him another path to recovery. L s D C the

509
00:28:54,000 --> 00:28:57,200
Speaker 1: late fifties were this wonderful error. There's all this gleeful

510
00:28:57,200 --> 00:29:00,920
Speaker 1: experimentation with acid. They're trying it for every thing, and

511
00:29:01,000 --> 00:29:03,840
Speaker 1: it just so happens that LSD has been shown to

512
00:29:03,880 --> 00:29:07,360
Speaker 1: have a serious documented of efficacy at treating alcoholism. One

513
00:29:07,400 --> 00:29:10,000
Speaker 1: analysis of studies conducted in the UK and the nineteen

514
00:29:10,080 --> 00:29:12,840
Speaker 1: sixties suggested that fifty nine percent of patients who took

515
00:29:12,960 --> 00:29:16,560
Speaker 1: LSD showed reduced levels of alcohol misuse UM and it

516
00:29:16,600 --> 00:29:19,720
Speaker 1: was very durable, like the lasting six months or longer.

517
00:29:20,080 --> 00:29:22,120
Speaker 1: There's a lot of theories that multiple like just doing

518
00:29:22,240 --> 00:29:24,600
Speaker 1: LSD once or twice a year could be like an

519
00:29:24,640 --> 00:29:31,640
Speaker 1: effective long term solution. Um which again I'm a big

520
00:29:31,680 --> 00:29:35,400
Speaker 1: advocate of the medical use of psychedelics. There's some incredible stuff.

521
00:29:35,480 --> 00:29:38,040
Speaker 1: They're doing LSD once or twice a year sounds very

522
00:29:38,120 --> 00:29:42,040
Speaker 1: pleasant and reasonable. Yeah. Yeah, it's a very healthy way

523
00:29:42,080 --> 00:29:48,479
Speaker 1: to think. Um yeah, especially when you compare it to

524
00:29:48,800 --> 00:29:53,120
Speaker 1: crippling alcoholism. You know that tripping twice a year and

525
00:29:53,240 --> 00:29:56,200
Speaker 1: fucking I don't know, putting on some King Crimson much better.

526
00:29:58,760 --> 00:30:03,840
Speaker 1: Um So. In the nineteen sixty two Charles called taking

527
00:30:04,000 --> 00:30:07,600
Speaker 1: LSD quote the most important single experience of my life. Now.

528
00:30:07,680 --> 00:30:10,920
Speaker 1: Interestingly though, he didn't credit it with curing his alcoholism,

529
00:30:11,000 --> 00:30:12,760
Speaker 1: because I think a A had really is what he

530
00:30:12,800 --> 00:30:16,800
Speaker 1: credited with that, And he doesn't I mentioned how effective

531
00:30:16,800 --> 00:30:18,440
Speaker 1: it is because I don't want to be making like

532
00:30:18,800 --> 00:30:22,479
Speaker 1: LSD is a very promising treatment for alcoholism. That's not

533
00:30:22,560 --> 00:30:26,560
Speaker 1: what it does for Charles. Um. He doesn't. It doesn't

534
00:30:26,600 --> 00:30:30,479
Speaker 1: cure him. He credits it with unlocking a new person,

535
00:30:30,560 --> 00:30:33,440
Speaker 1: basically fundamentally changing him. He says that it creates it

536
00:30:33,480 --> 00:30:36,680
Speaker 1: helps him like unlock new confidence in himself. Quote, I

537
00:30:36,720 --> 00:30:39,719
Speaker 1: became a different person, really and truly. Everything that has

538
00:30:39,760 --> 00:30:42,800
Speaker 1: happened to me since sinning on everything dates from that

539
00:30:42,880 --> 00:30:47,800
Speaker 1: point um. And interestingly, Charles did not suggest or allow

540
00:30:47,920 --> 00:30:51,200
Speaker 1: his later followers to take LSD. UM. He considered his

541
00:30:51,280 --> 00:30:54,000
Speaker 1: reaction to the drug to be unique um as a

542
00:30:54,000 --> 00:30:55,920
Speaker 1: result of the fact that he was better than people

543
00:30:56,000 --> 00:30:59,160
Speaker 1: like ordinary people. Right, he had a special LSD experience

544
00:30:59,160 --> 00:31:01,960
Speaker 1: that other people couldn't half because he was special. Um.

545
00:31:02,000 --> 00:31:04,560
Speaker 1: In nineteen sixty one, one of his followers, somebody who

546
00:31:04,560 --> 00:31:07,600
Speaker 1: talked him about his experiences on acid, wrote this quote,

547
00:31:08,160 --> 00:31:11,520
Speaker 1: Chuck was an atypical patient, and that he experienced no regression,

548
00:31:11,640 --> 00:31:15,000
Speaker 1: no sensory enhancement, or hallucinations during the active period of

549
00:31:15,120 --> 00:31:18,120
Speaker 1: LSD intoxication. His normal traits merely appeared in a sort

550
00:31:18,120 --> 00:31:21,280
Speaker 1: of caricature. One phrase that came into his mind impressed him.

551
00:31:21,440 --> 00:31:24,640
Speaker 1: It doesn't matter, but at the same time, it matters exquisitely.

552
00:31:24,920 --> 00:31:26,720
Speaker 1: He would go to his room and give way to

553
00:31:26,840 --> 00:31:29,240
Speaker 1: tears for an hour or more every day. Even with

554
00:31:29,280 --> 00:31:32,400
Speaker 1: the seeming grief, there was euphoria, which is I hate

555
00:31:32,440 --> 00:31:36,600
Speaker 1: to tell you, Chuck a very normal acid experience. Like

556
00:31:36,640 --> 00:31:38,479
Speaker 1: I said, I used to do that a couple of

557
00:31:38,520 --> 00:31:44,920
Speaker 1: times a week. But you're not special. Um. But he's

558
00:31:45,000 --> 00:31:47,880
Speaker 1: convinced that his reaction to LSD is unique. UM. And

559
00:31:47,920 --> 00:31:51,440
Speaker 1: he's it also, you know, it can change your personality.

560
00:31:51,480 --> 00:31:53,440
Speaker 1: I have had trips that I walked away from a

561
00:31:53,480 --> 00:31:56,480
Speaker 1: fundamentally different person. Not every not most trips, Like I've

562
00:31:56,480 --> 00:31:58,400
Speaker 1: had one or two in the hundreds of times that

563
00:31:58,440 --> 00:32:03,200
Speaker 1: I can credit to fundamentally altering some aspect of myself. Um.

564
00:32:03,240 --> 00:32:05,480
Speaker 1: But this happens with Chuck, and in this case it's

565
00:32:05,520 --> 00:32:10,160
Speaker 1: not a good thing. Um. So the combination of alcoholics, anonymous,

566
00:32:10,160 --> 00:32:13,520
Speaker 1: and Chuck's newfound acid given confidence had a profound impact.

567
00:32:13,720 --> 00:32:17,000
Speaker 1: As l A Magazine writes, quote after the acid experiment

568
00:32:17,040 --> 00:32:19,240
Speaker 1: in nineteen fifty seven, he was one year sober at

569
00:32:19,280 --> 00:32:20,920
Speaker 1: the time. I also hear fifty eight. I don't know

570
00:32:21,080 --> 00:32:23,680
Speaker 1: one of those years. Den Eric became a voracious a

571
00:32:23,760 --> 00:32:27,360
Speaker 1: voracious reader of philosophy and psychology. Looming especially large were

572
00:32:27,400 --> 00:32:31,200
Speaker 1: the nonconformity espoused by Emerson and self reliance, and the

573
00:32:31,320 --> 00:32:35,080
Speaker 1: utopian notions put forth by Thorau and Skinner. Detoric was

574
00:32:35,120 --> 00:32:37,760
Speaker 1: living on thirty three dollars a week unemployment checks, and

575
00:32:37,800 --> 00:32:40,240
Speaker 1: he began to taper off from a a When other

576
00:32:40,280 --> 00:32:43,479
Speaker 1: recovering alcoholics chip checked up on him, Detoric would engage

577
00:32:43,480 --> 00:32:47,080
Speaker 1: them in impromptu meetings equal parts grad school symposiums and

578
00:32:47,120 --> 00:32:51,640
Speaker 1: combative group therapy sessions. Those get togethers became thrice weekly affairs.

579
00:32:52,080 --> 00:32:55,000
Speaker 1: Then one day a young heroin addict named Whitey Walker,

580
00:32:55,040 --> 00:32:57,640
Speaker 1: fresh out of prison, joined the group. As he began

581
00:32:57,680 --> 00:33:00,200
Speaker 1: inviting other dope fiends to the mix the lane, which

582
00:33:00,240 --> 00:33:03,720
Speaker 1: grew coarser, the cross talk, more aggressive. Debtoric loved it.

583
00:33:03,920 --> 00:33:08,200
Speaker 1: The sessions became known as synonons, a portmanteau of symposium

584
00:33:08,320 --> 00:33:12,800
Speaker 1: or perhaps seminar and anonymous Debtoric, who provided couches for

585
00:33:12,840 --> 00:33:15,320
Speaker 1: people to crash on as they kicked heroin, would come

586
00:33:15,360 --> 00:33:18,320
Speaker 1: to believe that addicts weren't full fledged adults and shouldn't

587
00:33:18,360 --> 00:33:21,120
Speaker 1: be treated as adults. The younger adults took to calling

588
00:33:21,200 --> 00:33:24,960
Speaker 1: him Dad. So what happens here is very interesting to me.

589
00:33:25,680 --> 00:33:29,520
Speaker 1: You have a a starts as okay, this institutional approach

590
00:33:29,560 --> 00:33:31,680
Speaker 1: where you just have a couple of doctors or wardens

591
00:33:32,080 --> 00:33:34,760
Speaker 1: just completely controlling the lives of addicts and treating them

592
00:33:34,760 --> 00:33:37,280
Speaker 1: like criminals. That's a horrible way to get people clean.

593
00:33:37,520 --> 00:33:40,320
Speaker 1: What you need is this bottom up leaderless approach, and

594
00:33:40,360 --> 00:33:43,480
Speaker 1: debtoric comes out of that takes the language and some

595
00:33:43,560 --> 00:33:46,000
Speaker 1: of the methods and then turns it to a situation

596
00:33:46,000 --> 00:33:48,240
Speaker 1: where he is in charge and the addicts are children.

597
00:33:48,560 --> 00:33:52,960
Speaker 1: Like it's you know what, this leaderless approach needs a leader.

598
00:33:53,480 --> 00:33:59,000
Speaker 1: M hm, a leader. Yeah, it's almost perfect. The almost

599
00:33:59,000 --> 00:34:02,400
Speaker 1: perfect was perfect. It's just missing a single guy in

600
00:34:02,520 --> 00:34:08,719
Speaker 1: charge of everybody that they called dad. Yeah, it's amazing

601
00:34:08,840 --> 00:34:14,080
Speaker 1: how often this happens in history. Yeah, I mean it's

602
00:34:14,160 --> 00:34:21,239
Speaker 1: this is basically nineteen seventeen, but on a smaller scale. Um. So,

603
00:34:21,360 --> 00:34:23,560
Speaker 1: Now when it comes to like where the name sinn

604
00:34:23,600 --> 00:34:28,759
Speaker 1: Anon came from, and obviously el A magazine says it's

605
00:34:28,760 --> 00:34:31,560
Speaker 1: a mix of symposeum and seminar, I've heard different theories.

606
00:34:31,640 --> 00:34:35,000
Speaker 1: I don't know which is true. Um. Paul Marantz, who's

607
00:34:35,040 --> 00:34:37,120
Speaker 1: probably the number one expert on the cult, claims the

608
00:34:37,160 --> 00:34:40,480
Speaker 1: cauld changed The name was chosen because an addict slurred

609
00:34:40,560 --> 00:34:44,120
Speaker 1: the words symposeum and seminar together. So not a conscious portmanteau.

610
00:34:44,200 --> 00:34:46,200
Speaker 1: A guy who was fucked up and like screwed up

611
00:34:46,200 --> 00:34:49,680
Speaker 1: while talking. Um, I've also heard that it was supposed

612
00:34:49,719 --> 00:34:52,960
Speaker 1: to mean sin Anon like sins anonymous, and that that's

613
00:34:52,960 --> 00:34:55,399
Speaker 1: how it was more often referred to. UM. I don't

614
00:34:55,400 --> 00:34:56,960
Speaker 1: know which is the case. I've heard all of these

615
00:34:56,960 --> 00:34:59,480
Speaker 1: stories and ship that I've read about this. UM. Even

616
00:34:59,560 --> 00:35:01,600
Speaker 1: if this is true, it's worth noting that sinnan On

617
00:35:01,800 --> 00:35:06,439
Speaker 1: was not initially affiliated with Chuck's addiction recovery program. Its

618
00:35:06,440 --> 00:35:11,279
Speaker 1: original name was the Tender Loving Care Club. UM, Loving

619
00:35:11,360 --> 00:35:20,800
Speaker 1: Care Club. Yeah club, that's like the Saturday morning cartoon

620
00:35:20,920 --> 00:35:24,520
Speaker 1: round up. It's it's it's nine am. It's time for

621
00:35:24,560 --> 00:35:27,839
Speaker 1: the Tender Loving Care Club. There's a block of programming

622
00:35:28,320 --> 00:35:32,719
Speaker 1: that's all very positive mm hm. And you will be

623
00:35:32,760 --> 00:35:35,640
Speaker 1: treated like a child by the Tender Loving Cares Club

624
00:35:35,719 --> 00:35:39,319
Speaker 1: TV block too. Yeah. A lot of Transformers getting sold

625
00:35:39,400 --> 00:35:44,760
Speaker 1: during that, So Charles Derek rented a rundown storefront in Venice,

626
00:35:45,000 --> 00:35:48,600
Speaker 1: which at that point was like a shady, crime riddled neighborhood,

627
00:35:48,640 --> 00:35:50,959
Speaker 1: and you could like buy ship. They're very cheap because

628
00:35:51,000 --> 00:35:53,880
Speaker 1: people didn't want to live in Venice. Again. Los Angeles

629
00:35:53,960 --> 00:35:57,520
Speaker 1: was a really different city at this point in time. UM,

630
00:35:57,640 --> 00:36:00,080
Speaker 1: when you're talking about Venice is like like the the

631
00:36:00,160 --> 00:36:05,399
Speaker 1: ship part of town that's ridiculous to me. Um. So

632
00:36:05,560 --> 00:36:09,520
Speaker 1: they get this like crappy little storefront in Venice um,

633
00:36:09,600 --> 00:36:11,880
Speaker 1: and they're all broke as hell. Like when he starts this,

634
00:36:11,960 --> 00:36:14,319
Speaker 1: he basically buys this storefront and they start living there

635
00:36:14,400 --> 00:36:16,800
Speaker 1: kind of illegally, like he in a bunch of addicts

636
00:36:16,800 --> 00:36:19,440
Speaker 1: that he's trying to like help get clean. They were

637
00:36:19,440 --> 00:36:22,400
Speaker 1: all broke, and they survived by begging for stale food

638
00:36:22,719 --> 00:36:26,040
Speaker 1: from catering trucks and taking donations from local prostitutes. Like

639
00:36:26,080 --> 00:36:28,040
Speaker 1: a lot of how they stay alive is local sex

640
00:36:28,040 --> 00:36:31,279
Speaker 1: workers give them money. Um, which is awesome. Right, there's

641
00:36:31,320 --> 00:36:34,080
Speaker 1: like a really cool story in here of like a

642
00:36:34,160 --> 00:36:37,640
Speaker 1: community of people on the outskirts of society taking care

643
00:36:37,680 --> 00:36:39,480
Speaker 1: of each other. At this point, it's still a pretty

644
00:36:39,520 --> 00:36:42,320
Speaker 1: good story, but we are starting to see some troubling

645
00:36:42,360 --> 00:36:46,040
Speaker 1: aspects of Charles too. Um. Their shower was a hose

646
00:36:46,120 --> 00:36:48,279
Speaker 1: that ran through the window. I'm pretty sure there were

647
00:36:48,320 --> 00:36:53,280
Speaker 1: stealing water. You know, it's very punk rock. Actually, Um

648
00:36:53,360 --> 00:36:55,680
Speaker 1: on the on the wall of the building was a

649
00:36:55,680 --> 00:36:57,680
Speaker 1: life saver, like you know, the the things on a

650
00:36:57,719 --> 00:37:00,799
Speaker 1: boat that you throw out. Um that they called the

651
00:37:00,920 --> 00:37:04,480
Speaker 1: USS hang tough. While life was difficult, and they endured

652
00:37:04,480 --> 00:37:08,040
Speaker 1: many privations. Charles urged everyone to pull together and stay,

653
00:37:08,040 --> 00:37:11,080
Speaker 1: promising that a great future would emerge for the group,

654
00:37:11,760 --> 00:37:13,960
Speaker 1: and the system he developed seems to have helped a

655
00:37:14,000 --> 00:37:17,480
Speaker 1: lot of addicts. The the accountability, the constant surveillance of

656
00:37:17,480 --> 00:37:20,279
Speaker 1: a community, the fact they were all always together is

657
00:37:20,360 --> 00:37:22,520
Speaker 1: kind of for people with really serious addictions, one of

658
00:37:22,520 --> 00:37:24,880
Speaker 1: the only ways to stop him from relapsing. Right, you

659
00:37:24,920 --> 00:37:27,359
Speaker 1: need that twenty seven accountability because if you go away

660
00:37:27,360 --> 00:37:30,880
Speaker 1: for a minute, you're gonna you're gonna start using again. Um.

661
00:37:30,920 --> 00:37:33,319
Speaker 1: But what dead Rick saw as the most powerful tool

662
00:37:33,360 --> 00:37:36,160
Speaker 1: of the group, and his most brilliant innovation, was what

663
00:37:36,239 --> 00:37:40,000
Speaker 1: he called the game. And I'm gonna describe what the

664
00:37:40,000 --> 00:37:42,600
Speaker 1: game is to you from a write up in Cabinet Magazine.

665
00:37:42,840 --> 00:37:47,279
Speaker 1: I'm sure it's not sinister in any way. No, no, no, no, no,

666
00:37:47,360 --> 00:37:50,640
Speaker 1: of course not, of course not. It's just ominously called

667
00:37:50,640 --> 00:37:56,640
Speaker 1: the game. The game is not what you know. It's

668
00:37:56,719 --> 00:37:59,600
Speaker 1: not what you would title a Jordan's Peel movie about

669
00:37:59,600 --> 00:38:06,360
Speaker 1: a goal. The culpit murders people, absolutely not. The game

670
00:38:06,480 --> 00:38:09,160
Speaker 1: consisted of a dozen or so addicts sitting in a circle.

671
00:38:09,320 --> 00:38:11,760
Speaker 1: One player would start talking about the appearance or behavior

672
00:38:11,800 --> 00:38:14,760
Speaker 1: of another, picking out their defects and criticizing their character.

673
00:38:15,040 --> 00:38:17,040
Speaker 1: But as soon as the subject of the attack tried

674
00:38:17,080 --> 00:38:20,560
Speaker 1: to defend him or herself, other players would join the barrage,

675
00:38:20,640 --> 00:38:24,640
Speaker 1: unleashing a no holds barred verbal onslaught. Vulgarity was encouraged,

676
00:38:24,840 --> 00:38:27,680
Speaker 1: talk dirty and live clean, said Debtoric, and so the

677
00:38:27,719 --> 00:38:31,280
Speaker 1: other members would accuse the defendant of real and imagined crimes,

678
00:38:31,280 --> 00:38:34,120
Speaker 1: of being selfish, unthinking, of being a no good, ugly

679
00:38:34,200 --> 00:38:37,080
Speaker 1: diseased cocksucker who was too weak to go straight and

680
00:38:37,160 --> 00:38:39,839
Speaker 1: was too much of an asshole junkie, cry baby motherfucker

681
00:38:39,880 --> 00:38:43,080
Speaker 1: to admit it. Faced with this unrelenting group assault, the

682
00:38:43,120 --> 00:38:45,839
Speaker 1: recipient would eventually have little choice but to admit their

683
00:38:45,840 --> 00:38:48,839
Speaker 1: wrongdoing and promised him in their ways. Then the group

684
00:38:48,880 --> 00:38:51,440
Speaker 1: would turn to the next person and begin all over again.

685
00:38:52,280 --> 00:38:55,680
Speaker 1: The first time it hits you, it absolutely destroys you,

686
00:38:55,800 --> 00:38:58,920
Speaker 1: remembered a former game player. No matter how loud you scream,

687
00:38:59,120 --> 00:39:02,000
Speaker 1: they can scream outer recalled another, and no matter how

688
00:39:02,040 --> 00:39:03,960
Speaker 1: long you talk, when you run out of breath, they're

689
00:39:04,000 --> 00:39:07,839
Speaker 1: there to start raving at you and laughing. Emotional catharsis

690
00:39:07,920 --> 00:39:11,040
Speaker 1: was the aim there were only two rules, no drugs

691
00:39:11,160 --> 00:39:14,520
Speaker 1: and no physical violence. It was vicious, but it actually

692
00:39:14,560 --> 00:39:18,200
Speaker 1: seemed to work. One cannot get up, remarked Dedrick until

693
00:39:18,320 --> 00:39:23,520
Speaker 1: he's knocked down. You know, I know that a lot

694
00:39:23,600 --> 00:39:26,800
Speaker 1: of people, uh subscribe to the theory that you must

695
00:39:27,400 --> 00:39:30,880
Speaker 1: you must break come one down in order to build

696
00:39:30,920 --> 00:39:32,719
Speaker 1: them up. But I feel like there has to be

697
00:39:32,760 --> 00:39:36,040
Speaker 1: a better way. Also in terms of games, don't really

698
00:39:36,080 --> 00:39:41,000
Speaker 1: get the game aspect. Yeah, not really a game. It's

699
00:39:41,040 --> 00:39:46,560
Speaker 1: just a Parker Brothers board that cocksuckers scream at each

700
00:39:46,560 --> 00:39:49,680
Speaker 1: other for our better games out there. Um, there are

701
00:39:49,760 --> 00:39:52,759
Speaker 1: better games out there. At least making a charade where

702
00:39:52,800 --> 00:39:55,000
Speaker 1: you have to guess what the person is saying that

703
00:39:55,120 --> 00:39:59,560
Speaker 1: this horrible thing that they're saying about you mm hmm, yeah,

704
00:39:59,600 --> 00:40:01,839
Speaker 1: I mean is like there's a and again you can

705
00:40:01,840 --> 00:40:03,880
Speaker 1: see like the elements of Like I have dealt with

706
00:40:03,920 --> 00:40:06,680
Speaker 1: addiction at various points in my past, and I've had

707
00:40:06,719 --> 00:40:09,399
Speaker 1: moments where friends were like, you're doing what you're doing

708
00:40:09,480 --> 00:40:11,440
Speaker 1: is stupid and you're hurting yourself and you need to

709
00:40:11,440 --> 00:40:13,799
Speaker 1: fucking stop, and like, yeah, sometimes you do need that

710
00:40:13,880 --> 00:40:16,279
Speaker 1: kind of straight talk. There's interest between straight talk and

711
00:40:16,320 --> 00:40:18,960
Speaker 1: saying you're no good cock sucking piece of shit right, Like,

712
00:40:19,040 --> 00:40:23,560
Speaker 1: that's not straight talk, that's just abuse. But also blame

713
00:40:23,600 --> 00:40:26,719
Speaker 1: it on the fats. So guy, that's the facts of guy.

714
00:40:26,800 --> 00:40:31,279
Speaker 1: He started this path Um. I think there's a line

715
00:40:31,280 --> 00:40:33,120
Speaker 1: to be drawn by why this works and what this

716
00:40:33,200 --> 00:40:35,839
Speaker 1: works it doing. I think what's actually happening here, why

717
00:40:35,880 --> 00:40:38,960
Speaker 1: this contributes to keeping people sober is not that the

718
00:40:39,080 --> 00:40:46,879
Speaker 1: game encourages sobriety. The game encourages cult like group behavior,

719
00:40:47,440 --> 00:40:51,080
Speaker 1: and that discourages drug abuse. It keeps the group because

720
00:40:51,120 --> 00:40:54,600
Speaker 1: trauma bonds people, even trauma that you're inflicting on each

721
00:40:54,640 --> 00:40:57,960
Speaker 1: other can bond groups of people together. It's like it's

722
00:40:57,960 --> 00:41:00,880
Speaker 1: a codependent relationship kind of. And they've all been instructed

723
00:41:01,040 --> 00:41:04,560
Speaker 1: to do this by dad. Yes, yeah, by dad. Would

724
00:41:04,600 --> 00:41:08,319
Speaker 1: Chuck participate in the game, Oh yes, you would lead

725
00:41:08,360 --> 00:41:13,799
Speaker 1: and you did not insult That's what I wanted to know. Yeah, no, no, no, no,

726
00:41:13,880 --> 00:41:17,799
Speaker 1: Chuck is not getting insulted alongside everyone else. Chuck was

727
00:41:17,840 --> 00:41:23,160
Speaker 1: just now you go and to yell at people. He

728
00:41:23,280 --> 00:41:28,799
Speaker 1: was very good at screaming at people. Um, and it's um.

729
00:41:28,840 --> 00:41:30,440
Speaker 1: I also think there's a line to be drawn here

730
00:41:30,440 --> 00:41:33,840
Speaker 1: between what they're doing and kind of how the military

731
00:41:33,880 --> 00:41:36,600
Speaker 1: basic training at least used to work. Um. I don't

732
00:41:36,640 --> 00:41:39,640
Speaker 1: know now, but like I know friends who have described,

733
00:41:39,840 --> 00:41:43,240
Speaker 1: particularly Marine corpsas training as a game. It's a game,

734
00:41:43,320 --> 00:41:45,600
Speaker 1: and when you understand the rules, you understand how to

735
00:41:45,680 --> 00:41:47,040
Speaker 1: do it, and like what you need to do in

736
00:41:47,120 --> 00:41:49,880
Speaker 1: order to like get through. What kind of and it bonds?

737
00:41:49,960 --> 00:41:52,880
Speaker 1: What are the things that bonds the unit together? Is

738
00:41:52,920 --> 00:41:57,319
Speaker 1: how shitty the experiences? Um? And that's I think what's

739
00:41:57,400 --> 00:41:59,359
Speaker 1: keeping people off of drugs. I don't think it's any

740
00:41:59,400 --> 00:42:01,279
Speaker 1: magic about the game. It's just you put a bunch

741
00:42:01,280 --> 00:42:05,560
Speaker 1: of people together, you traumatize them, and they kind of

742
00:42:05,600 --> 00:42:08,120
Speaker 1: can't exist outside of the group. But if the group

743
00:42:08,160 --> 00:42:12,000
Speaker 1: has committed to sobriety, they'll stay sober, you know. Um,

744
00:42:12,040 --> 00:42:14,320
Speaker 1: that's what I'm reading from this. Yeah. I mean, speaking

745
00:42:14,320 --> 00:42:16,480
Speaker 1: as a person who has been insulted in my life,

746
00:42:16,480 --> 00:42:19,839
Speaker 1: it has not helped me. Yeah, it does not know,

747
00:42:20,360 --> 00:42:24,400
Speaker 1: it has not helped me. No. Um. De Derek had

748
00:42:24,440 --> 00:42:27,360
Speaker 1: invented the game by mixing a a's teachings with ship

749
00:42:27,440 --> 00:42:30,879
Speaker 1: he vaguely remembered about psychiatry from articles he had read

750
00:42:30,960 --> 00:42:35,600
Speaker 1: and a boy. So you know it's good and also

751
00:42:36,680 --> 00:42:40,200
Speaker 1: a bunch of parts of Ralph Waldo Emerson's one essay

752
00:42:40,360 --> 00:42:43,799
Speaker 1: self Reliance Now. The core of his philosophy was to

753
00:42:43,920 --> 00:42:46,640
Speaker 1: fix people with tough love, to make them comfortable by

754
00:42:46,680 --> 00:42:49,840
Speaker 1: first making them very uncomfortable. Over time, he developed a

755
00:42:49,880 --> 00:42:52,560
Speaker 1: catch phrase which he used to greet addicts on their

756
00:42:52,600 --> 00:42:56,319
Speaker 1: first morning in the house. Today is the first day

757
00:42:56,440 --> 00:42:58,319
Speaker 1: of the rest of your life. He's the one who

758
00:42:58,360 --> 00:43:08,279
Speaker 1: invented that. Wow, yeah, weird, right, and it's you can

759
00:43:08,440 --> 00:43:12,280
Speaker 1: you can see. There's both a very optimistic recovery angle

760
00:43:12,360 --> 00:43:15,319
Speaker 1: to that, like your life starts again now you don't

761
00:43:15,360 --> 00:43:17,799
Speaker 1: you're not bound to your past, you're not bound to

762
00:43:17,840 --> 00:43:21,320
Speaker 1: make the same mistakes. But also that can be very culty.

763
00:43:21,400 --> 00:43:23,279
Speaker 1: It can go either way as and now you have

764
00:43:23,360 --> 00:43:25,800
Speaker 1: a new life with us as part of this group,

765
00:43:25,840 --> 00:43:30,920
Speaker 1: and you'll never yeah yeah, So it can mean both things.

766
00:43:33,120 --> 00:43:37,960
Speaker 1: In nineteen fifty eight, Detoric incorporated his facility as a nonprofit.

767
00:43:38,160 --> 00:43:41,160
Speaker 1: Over the next two years, a standard routine evolved. New

768
00:43:41,200 --> 00:43:44,160
Speaker 1: members were asked to quit drugs cold turkey, and as

769
00:43:44,200 --> 00:43:47,080
Speaker 1: they got over being dope sick, they were gradually welcomed

770
00:43:47,120 --> 00:43:50,120
Speaker 1: into the communal life of the club. There was hard labor,

771
00:43:50,160 --> 00:43:53,239
Speaker 1: but There was also constant mutual support in group therapy.

772
00:43:53,480 --> 00:43:56,359
Speaker 1: The game was played three times per week. Members were

773
00:43:56,400 --> 00:43:59,640
Speaker 1: forbidden from any drugs save coffee and cigarettes, which were

774
00:43:59,640 --> 00:44:02,160
Speaker 1: in veil double in unlimited quantities at all times, which

775
00:44:02,200 --> 00:44:04,040
Speaker 1: is I think has been from most of the history

776
00:44:04,040 --> 00:44:06,640
Speaker 1: of addition recovery pretty common. People smoke and drink coffee

777
00:44:06,640 --> 00:44:11,000
Speaker 1: fucking constantly, you know, whatever you gotta do. Um. Oddly enough,

778
00:44:11,280 --> 00:44:14,319
Speaker 1: peanut butter sandwiches were also always available, and I think

779
00:44:14,360 --> 00:44:17,720
Speaker 1: it's just because Charles Dedoric liked them. Um, so obviously

780
00:44:17,760 --> 00:44:21,440
Speaker 1: they must be good for addicts. Um. This will be

781
00:44:21,520 --> 00:44:28,160
Speaker 1: the beginning of a pattern. Um. Fairly quickly, Chuck proved

782
00:44:28,160 --> 00:44:31,160
Speaker 1: to have a peculiar genius from marketing. The term sent

783
00:44:31,239 --> 00:44:33,920
Speaker 1: and on had been used internally for a while, and

784
00:44:33,960 --> 00:44:36,360
Speaker 1: he decided to adopt it as the name of the group.

785
00:44:36,719 --> 00:44:38,960
Speaker 1: To its early members, sent and On was a very

786
00:44:39,040 --> 00:44:42,080
Speaker 1: real life saver. In the late nineteen fifties, drug addiction

787
00:44:42,120 --> 00:44:45,160
Speaker 1: had become a source a matter of national concern, similar

788
00:44:45,200 --> 00:44:47,320
Speaker 1: to how the prohibition movement had taken over the country

789
00:44:47,320 --> 00:44:50,400
Speaker 1: at the turn of the century. Newspapers and radio broadcasters

790
00:44:50,480 --> 00:44:54,280
Speaker 1: warned constantly about the dope monster ravaging the United States.

791
00:44:54,680 --> 00:44:57,600
Speaker 1: The governor of New York, Nelson Rockefeller, claimed that fifty

792
00:44:57,680 --> 00:44:59,600
Speaker 1: percent of crimes in his state could be linked to

793
00:44:59,640 --> 00:45:02,480
Speaker 1: drug Whether this was true or not mattered less than

794
00:45:02,480 --> 00:45:05,800
Speaker 1: the fact that people believed it. State lawmakers followed the

795
00:45:05,840 --> 00:45:08,759
Speaker 1: public outcry with a raft of narcotics bills aimed at

796
00:45:08,840 --> 00:45:14,000
Speaker 1: criminalizing drug users. Most recommended mandatory minimum sentences to try

797
00:45:14,000 --> 00:45:16,960
Speaker 1: and discourage drug addiction. This did not work, but it

798
00:45:17,040 --> 00:45:20,600
Speaker 1: kept being done. In the mid nineteen fifties, California's Department

799
00:45:20,640 --> 00:45:24,680
Speaker 1: of Corrections started building facilities for narcotics violators for people

800
00:45:24,680 --> 00:45:28,040
Speaker 1: who wanted to get cleaned. There were basically no community resources.

801
00:45:28,080 --> 00:45:31,000
Speaker 1: Your only option was one of two kinds of incarceration.

802
00:45:31,280 --> 00:45:33,719
Speaker 1: You could get convicted and sent to prison, or you

803
00:45:33,760 --> 00:45:36,440
Speaker 1: could get sent to an asylum. So obviously alcoholism has

804
00:45:36,440 --> 00:45:38,880
Speaker 1: started to get an understand there's a nothing like that

805
00:45:38,960 --> 00:45:42,879
Speaker 1: existed for narcotics, and that's becoming a problem. So sent

806
00:45:42,960 --> 00:45:45,759
Speaker 1: it On kind of blows up because it's really the

807
00:45:45,800 --> 00:45:49,960
Speaker 1: first organized attempts someone has to dealing with the problem

808
00:45:49,960 --> 00:45:53,200
Speaker 1: of narcotics addiction. One early member of Senting On was

809
00:45:53,280 --> 00:45:55,840
Speaker 1: Lena Lindsay. She was a dope addict, and before she

810
00:45:55,920 --> 00:45:58,239
Speaker 1: found senting on she spent time in jail and also

811
00:45:58,360 --> 00:46:01,439
Speaker 1: spent time in Camailo State Hospital, one of the first

812
00:46:01,440 --> 00:46:04,600
Speaker 1: facilities to open an asylum for addicts. You couldn't just

813
00:46:04,719 --> 00:46:07,760
Speaker 1: check yourself into Camarilla, though. You had to go to court,

814
00:46:07,960 --> 00:46:11,040
Speaker 1: admit you were an addict and be sentenced or admitted

815
00:46:11,120 --> 00:46:14,439
Speaker 1: to the hospital UM, which is not ideal making drug

816
00:46:14,480 --> 00:46:18,640
Speaker 1: addicts go to court before they can get treatment UM,

817
00:46:18,680 --> 00:46:20,400
Speaker 1: but Lena did. She had enough of her problem that

818
00:46:20,440 --> 00:46:22,000
Speaker 1: she was like, fuck it, I'll go before a judge.

819
00:46:22,000 --> 00:46:24,359
Speaker 1: And she got sent there for ninety days. And it

820
00:46:24,400 --> 00:46:28,640
Speaker 1: was not a great program. Quote. I didn't think it

821
00:46:28,680 --> 00:46:30,360
Speaker 1: was a rehab place. I just thought it was a

822
00:46:30,360 --> 00:46:32,480
Speaker 1: place for me to get clean. That's where my mind was.

823
00:46:32,560 --> 00:46:35,200
Speaker 1: I just wanted to get clean. Camarilla was fine. I

824
00:46:35,200 --> 00:46:37,400
Speaker 1: think I stayed loaded more than anything else. So she

825
00:46:37,680 --> 00:46:40,760
Speaker 1: continued to get high. They kept me in the admitting ward.

826
00:46:40,800 --> 00:46:42,799
Speaker 1: I helped with new people who would come in to me.

827
00:46:42,920 --> 00:46:45,080
Speaker 1: That was a nuthouse. I had no expectations. I'll put

828
00:46:45,120 --> 00:46:47,440
Speaker 1: it that way. There was no program. I helped them

829
00:46:47,480 --> 00:46:49,840
Speaker 1: with other patients. Remember I was on the admitting ward

830
00:46:49,840 --> 00:46:51,799
Speaker 1: and I helped them with other patients. I helped them

831
00:46:51,840 --> 00:46:54,560
Speaker 1: give shock treatment and I stayed loaded. While I was there,

832
00:46:54,800 --> 00:46:57,120
Speaker 1: my boyfriend would come to visit. After thirty days, you

833
00:46:57,120 --> 00:46:59,239
Speaker 1: could have visits and my boyfriend would come. Me and

834
00:46:59,280 --> 00:47:01,000
Speaker 1: another girl we were were on the ward together. Our

835
00:47:01,040 --> 00:47:03,920
Speaker 1: boyfriends would sneak us drugs. I don't think the staff

836
00:47:04,000 --> 00:47:05,920
Speaker 1: knew what they we were doing. It was different than

837
00:47:05,960 --> 00:47:08,240
Speaker 1: being in jail, that's for sure. There was no place

838
00:47:08,280 --> 00:47:10,880
Speaker 1: in my time. There was just no place for drug addicts,

839
00:47:10,920 --> 00:47:14,920
Speaker 1: none at all. So not a great drug addiction program.

840
00:47:14,960 --> 00:47:18,319
Speaker 1: If you can, you know, get heroin there. Um and

841
00:47:18,360 --> 00:47:20,560
Speaker 1: I mean I guess because at this at this time,

842
00:47:21,560 --> 00:47:25,240
Speaker 1: narcotics are definitely seen as a moral failing across the board.

843
00:47:25,680 --> 00:47:29,880
Speaker 1: Yes's nobody that's saying. People are somewhat more understanding understanding

844
00:47:29,880 --> 00:47:33,640
Speaker 1: of alcoholism than they are started to be. Yes, yeah,

845
00:47:34,000 --> 00:47:37,400
Speaker 1: um so. Lena first heard about sinning On through the

846
00:47:37,440 --> 00:47:40,479
Speaker 1: television via a local news broadcast. She described her first

847
00:47:40,480 --> 00:47:43,240
Speaker 1: impression of it as quote, this place on the beach

848
00:47:43,280 --> 00:47:45,640
Speaker 1: that was supposed to be helping dope fiends. And by

849
00:47:45,680 --> 00:47:47,319
Speaker 1: the way, that's what they called each other and sent

850
00:47:47,400 --> 00:47:50,919
Speaker 1: and on they called each other dope fiends Um. Over

851
00:47:50,920 --> 00:47:53,040
Speaker 1: the months as she struggled with her addiction and went

852
00:47:53,080 --> 00:47:55,560
Speaker 1: into and out of treatment, other addicts she knew started

853
00:47:55,600 --> 00:47:58,640
Speaker 1: talking about Sinning On, saying stuff like they give you cigarettes,

854
00:47:58,760 --> 00:48:01,759
Speaker 1: they feed you. When Lena first showed up, Chuck took

855
00:48:01,760 --> 00:48:04,360
Speaker 1: her around and then told her to leave. His attitude

856
00:48:04,440 --> 00:48:06,759
Speaker 1: was addicts should get a tour, see what the place

857
00:48:06,800 --> 00:48:08,960
Speaker 1: had to offer, and then be sent back to their

858
00:48:08,960 --> 00:48:11,400
Speaker 1: disastrous lives so they would hit rock bottom again and

859
00:48:11,440 --> 00:48:13,640
Speaker 1: realize how important it was to get straightened out right.

860
00:48:13,640 --> 00:48:17,040
Speaker 1: That was the standard procedure UM, but she convinced Chuck

861
00:48:17,040 --> 00:48:19,200
Speaker 1: to let her join straight away, and Lena became the

862
00:48:19,239 --> 00:48:23,080
Speaker 1: first black member of sinnan on Um. The organization quickly

863
00:48:23,120 --> 00:48:26,800
Speaker 1: grew to be significantly more integrated than mainstream American society

864
00:48:26,840 --> 00:48:29,399
Speaker 1: at the time. This is one thing I haven't heard

865
00:48:29,400 --> 00:48:32,240
Speaker 1: any allegations he was racist. They were actually really ahead

866
00:48:32,239 --> 00:48:34,520
Speaker 1: of their time in terms. It was a fully integrated

867
00:48:34,640 --> 00:48:37,520
Speaker 1: program and eventually kind of a fully integrated version of

868
00:48:37,560 --> 00:48:41,360
Speaker 1: society UM. And as fucked up as the game sounds,

869
00:48:41,800 --> 00:48:44,440
Speaker 1: Lena found it useful, uh, and she explained to an

870
00:48:44,440 --> 00:48:47,160
Speaker 1: interviewer quote it was in the game that I started

871
00:48:47,239 --> 00:48:49,640
Speaker 1: learning how to tell the truth. Because us drug addicts,

872
00:48:49,640 --> 00:48:51,880
Speaker 1: we believed our own bullshit in order to do what

873
00:48:51,960 --> 00:48:53,920
Speaker 1: we did and live the lifestyle. I guess we had

874
00:48:53,920 --> 00:48:56,160
Speaker 1: to believe the mess that we told ourselves. It was

875
00:48:56,200 --> 00:48:58,560
Speaker 1: after one of the games, big heavy games. I went

876
00:48:58,600 --> 00:49:00,520
Speaker 1: to my room, I went to bed, and I started

877
00:49:00,560 --> 00:49:02,440
Speaker 1: thinking about what they talked to me about in the

878
00:49:02,440 --> 00:49:05,080
Speaker 1: game and how I defended it and I was lying.

879
00:49:05,360 --> 00:49:07,279
Speaker 1: And that's when I started learning how to tell the

880
00:49:07,320 --> 00:49:10,600
Speaker 1: truth to myself, To thy own self, be truthful. That

881
00:49:10,680 --> 00:49:13,120
Speaker 1: was one of my favorite concepts. The old man Debtoric

882
00:49:13,280 --> 00:49:16,120
Speaker 1: gave me to thy own self be truthful. When I

883
00:49:16,160 --> 00:49:18,280
Speaker 1: was in my bed by myself, I copped to myself

884
00:49:18,320 --> 00:49:20,319
Speaker 1: what a liar I was. And in my next game,

885
00:49:20,360 --> 00:49:23,120
Speaker 1: I copped out on myself. That started me to telling

886
00:49:23,160 --> 00:49:25,319
Speaker 1: the truth. I didn't tell the truth all the time.

887
00:49:25,440 --> 00:49:26,799
Speaker 1: It had to get to be a habit. You know

888
00:49:27,560 --> 00:49:30,759
Speaker 1: this type of thing. I mean, people can I guess

889
00:49:31,200 --> 00:49:34,480
Speaker 1: the relationships that you form within a a Let's say,

890
00:49:35,120 --> 00:49:37,600
Speaker 1: people can they're allowed to call you out, maybe not

891
00:49:37,680 --> 00:49:39,759
Speaker 1: in a meeting in front of everybody, but you know,

892
00:49:39,800 --> 00:49:41,480
Speaker 1: if you have a sponsor can call you out, if

893
00:49:41,520 --> 00:49:44,960
Speaker 1: you're spinning some bullshit and without it being like a

894
00:49:45,000 --> 00:49:50,680
Speaker 1: complete breaking down of you, just somebody keeping you in check. Yeah,

895
00:49:50,800 --> 00:49:53,359
Speaker 1: I mean, and that's that's hugely important. And I don't

896
00:49:53,440 --> 00:49:56,200
Speaker 1: think Lena, you know, I think there's very abusive aspects

897
00:49:56,200 --> 00:49:58,919
Speaker 1: to the game obviously, but for people who had never

898
00:49:59,000 --> 00:50:01,440
Speaker 1: had anyone to call all them out because maybe all

899
00:50:01,440 --> 00:50:04,239
Speaker 1: of their friends are also addicted, everyone's an enabler. I

900
00:50:04,400 --> 00:50:06,560
Speaker 1: I can see why that would be a value, even

901
00:50:06,560 --> 00:50:09,799
Speaker 1: though there's also clearly toxic aspects. I mean, because part

902
00:50:09,800 --> 00:50:11,440
Speaker 1: of being an addict, A big part of being an

903
00:50:11,440 --> 00:50:13,719
Speaker 1: addict is lying. You have to constantly be lying to

904
00:50:13,760 --> 00:50:16,560
Speaker 1: other people, to yourself. You have to be justifying what

905
00:50:16,600 --> 00:50:19,840
Speaker 1: you're doing at all times. Yeah, and you have to

906
00:50:19,880 --> 00:50:23,280
Speaker 1: be able to lie to yourself before you can convincingly

907
00:50:23,400 --> 00:50:26,600
Speaker 1: lie to other people. Um, that's like the most important

908
00:50:26,640 --> 00:50:28,960
Speaker 1: aspect of doing that. You have to make it so

909
00:50:29,000 --> 00:50:30,560
Speaker 1: that the lying to other people is that well, they

910
00:50:30,560 --> 00:50:33,520
Speaker 1: don't under they'll never understand. So I have to just

911
00:50:33,760 --> 00:50:36,680
Speaker 1: gloss over this because they I just can't make them

912
00:50:36,680 --> 00:50:41,120
Speaker 1: see why this is necessary for me exactly. And I

913
00:50:41,200 --> 00:50:43,799
Speaker 1: am you know, It's one of those things again, we've

914
00:50:43,800 --> 00:50:46,360
Speaker 1: talked about like how kind of abusive aspects of the

915
00:50:46,400 --> 00:50:49,640
Speaker 1: game is. It's also probably fair to say this is

916
00:50:49,680 --> 00:50:53,480
Speaker 1: the best narcotics addiction treatment available to people for southern

917
00:50:53,520 --> 00:50:56,640
Speaker 1: California or anywhere in the country really at this period

918
00:50:56,640 --> 00:51:00,840
Speaker 1: of time. But there's not really a lot of options. Uh. Um,

919
00:51:00,880 --> 00:51:05,120
Speaker 1: So folks, you know, do what they can, and um, yeah,

920
00:51:05,840 --> 00:51:08,319
Speaker 1: you know who else does what they can? Paul, I

921
00:51:08,360 --> 00:51:12,320
Speaker 1: bet it's goods and services exactly, the goods and services

922
00:51:12,320 --> 00:51:15,600
Speaker 1: that support this podcast are you know, obviously now we

923
00:51:15,719 --> 00:51:22,279
Speaker 1: have a solution to all kinds of addiction, and it's capitalism. Look, you,

924
00:51:22,560 --> 00:51:25,000
Speaker 1: we all need the dopamine fix that a needle of

925
00:51:25,040 --> 00:51:28,120
Speaker 1: heroin gives us, But why not buy a mattress instead?

926
00:51:28,280 --> 00:51:31,960
Speaker 1: That's all I'm saying. You know, all right, here's here's

927
00:51:31,960 --> 00:51:44,240
Speaker 1: some products. Uh, we're back. We're just thinking about products, services,

928
00:51:44,280 --> 00:51:49,120
Speaker 1: the intersection of those twos. Thank you, Thank you, products

929
00:51:49,120 --> 00:51:53,400
Speaker 1: and services. Thank you. In nineteen six, Chuck Dederic moved

930
00:51:53,520 --> 00:51:55,799
Speaker 1: sent and On from the CD storefront in Venice to

931
00:51:55,840 --> 00:51:58,920
Speaker 1: an empty National Guard armory in Santa Monica. He had

932
00:51:58,920 --> 00:52:02,400
Speaker 1: about sixty five members at this time. They were immediately

933
00:52:02,520 --> 00:52:06,160
Speaker 1: unpopular among the nimbi types who lived near the facility.

934
00:52:06,560 --> 00:52:09,239
Speaker 1: Yeah right, you know it is southern California. It hasn't

935
00:52:09,280 --> 00:52:14,920
Speaker 1: all changed. Ten days after moving in, he was arrested

936
00:52:14,920 --> 00:52:18,799
Speaker 1: for operating a hospital without a license, which I agree

937
00:52:19,000 --> 00:52:22,480
Speaker 1: that should be a crime, but also they were I

938
00:52:22,480 --> 00:52:24,480
Speaker 1: think it was kind of bullshit, like he he wasn't

939
00:52:24,520 --> 00:52:27,200
Speaker 1: operating a hospital. He was doing something no one else

940
00:52:27,280 --> 00:52:30,960
Speaker 1: was really doing. Anyway, he was convicted. The court offered

941
00:52:31,040 --> 00:52:33,040
Speaker 1: him probation if he would agree to move out of

942
00:52:33,040 --> 00:52:35,960
Speaker 1: the armory, and as an active protest, he declined, and

943
00:52:36,000 --> 00:52:38,800
Speaker 1: he went to jail for twenty five days instead. Now

944
00:52:39,040 --> 00:52:41,200
Speaker 1: the news picks up on this and sent it. On

945
00:52:41,280 --> 00:52:43,600
Speaker 1: had started to generate a significant amount of buzz over

946
00:52:43,640 --> 00:52:46,000
Speaker 1: the last couple of years, and his decision to go

947
00:52:46,080 --> 00:52:49,000
Speaker 1: to jail for his beliefs rather than moved was the

948
00:52:49,040 --> 00:52:51,520
Speaker 1: best buzz marketing he could have done. He becomes a

949
00:52:51,600 --> 00:52:55,760
Speaker 1: hero all across California, a brave trailblazer fighting the scourge

950
00:52:55,760 --> 00:52:58,439
Speaker 1: of dope addiction and and out of touch court system.

951
00:52:58,600 --> 00:53:01,799
Speaker 1: Governor Edmund Brown signed a bill into law that gave

952
00:53:01,880 --> 00:53:05,920
Speaker 1: sinnon On specifically a special exemption from health licensing laws.

953
00:53:06,480 --> 00:53:08,279
Speaker 1: Um So this becomes a big enough thing that the

954
00:53:08,360 --> 00:53:11,680
Speaker 1: governor signs a bill into law to allow this specific

955
00:53:11,760 --> 00:53:15,279
Speaker 1: program to exist. Now, under the bill, the Medical Board

956
00:53:15,280 --> 00:53:17,720
Speaker 1: of the State of California was supposed to establish special

957
00:53:17,800 --> 00:53:20,520
Speaker 1: rules for Sinnonon to follow. They never got around to

958
00:53:20,560 --> 00:53:28,400
Speaker 1: doing that. Um they were supposed to though, Um sure yeah. Now,

959
00:53:28,719 --> 00:53:30,840
Speaker 1: Chuck's time in prison had made him a martyr, and

960
00:53:30,880 --> 00:53:33,400
Speaker 1: the fawning media attention had made him into a national

961
00:53:33,440 --> 00:53:36,680
Speaker 1: hero of the dope epidemic. Donation started to flow in.

962
00:53:36,840 --> 00:53:40,640
Speaker 1: Wealthy celebrities began dropping by, some for treatment and others

963
00:53:40,680 --> 00:53:43,360
Speaker 1: just to explore the new sober society that Chuck de

964
00:53:43,480 --> 00:53:46,520
Speaker 1: Eric was building in his facility. Leonard Nimoy made a

965
00:53:46,560 --> 00:53:49,960
Speaker 1: habit of stopping by to play the game with X addicts. Um,

966
00:53:50,040 --> 00:53:53,880
Speaker 1: so you can imagine Leonard Nimoy just like screaming cocksucker

967
00:53:53,920 --> 00:53:58,239
Speaker 1: and a a bunch of dope feeds and Santa Monica. Well,

968
00:53:58,280 --> 00:54:00,359
Speaker 1: it makes me sad to think that some he would

969
00:54:00,400 --> 00:54:04,200
Speaker 1: be yelling mean things at Leonard Nimoy. I don't think

970
00:54:04,239 --> 00:54:07,120
Speaker 1: anyone yelled at Leonard Nimo. I have trouble believing that

971
00:54:07,600 --> 00:54:09,439
Speaker 1: he took the sort of more of a Chuck role

972
00:54:09,480 --> 00:54:11,640
Speaker 1: in the when pay Yeah, I'm guessing he was more

973
00:54:11,680 --> 00:54:14,200
Speaker 1: of a chuck in this. I just can't imagine anyone

974
00:54:14,280 --> 00:54:19,840
Speaker 1: yelling at Leonard Nimoy aside from Bill Shatner. This so

975
00:54:19,840 --> 00:54:23,440
Speaker 1: so at this point, at this point, no one leaves

976
00:54:23,520 --> 00:54:27,799
Speaker 1: chuck once they get into right, they are they are.

977
00:54:28,000 --> 00:54:31,440
Speaker 1: It's kind of up. He claims an eight success Right.

978
00:54:31,480 --> 00:54:33,359
Speaker 1: There are people who will say that never more than

979
00:54:33,400 --> 00:54:36,600
Speaker 1: seventy or eighty people graduated. But some people are graduating,

980
00:54:36,920 --> 00:54:39,160
Speaker 1: but a lot of them don't want to graduate. A

981
00:54:39,239 --> 00:54:41,719
Speaker 1: lot of them want to stay in this community. And

982
00:54:41,880 --> 00:54:44,239
Speaker 1: we'll talk about that in a little bit here. Um So,

983
00:54:44,280 --> 00:54:47,200
Speaker 1: a number of very prominent jazz musicians also became members

984
00:54:47,200 --> 00:54:51,520
Speaker 1: because obviously jazz musicians do a lot of drugs. Um

985
00:54:52,600 --> 00:54:54,279
Speaker 1: When they wanted to become clean, they would go to

986
00:54:54,320 --> 00:54:56,600
Speaker 1: sin and On and they would start playing music there.

987
00:54:56,600 --> 00:54:59,000
Speaker 1: And they actually formed a sin and On jazz band

988
00:54:59,080 --> 00:55:02,399
Speaker 1: and cut an album called The Sounds of Synanon. Uh.

989
00:55:02,440 --> 00:55:06,200
Speaker 1: Their band played on the Steve Allen Show. Um So,

990
00:55:06,280 --> 00:55:08,480
Speaker 1: like yeah, they're like this is like a big cultural

991
00:55:08,560 --> 00:55:12,480
Speaker 1: thing at the time. Now, one reason for Cinnon's popularity

992
00:55:12,520 --> 00:55:15,600
Speaker 1: was that, you know, the civil rights movement is starting

993
00:55:15,600 --> 00:55:18,440
Speaker 1: to become popular with the Hollywood set in the early sixties,

994
00:55:18,600 --> 00:55:21,839
Speaker 1: and sent it on as fully integrated UM, and I

995
00:55:21,880 --> 00:55:24,400
Speaker 1: haven't found evidence that he was. He was certainly for

996
00:55:24,600 --> 00:55:29,479
Speaker 1: his time very progressive on race UM. In nineteen fifty nine,

997
00:55:29,520 --> 00:55:32,440
Speaker 1: a black sex worker and dope addict named Betty Coleman

998
00:55:32,560 --> 00:55:35,000
Speaker 1: came to send It on for help. Betty later told

999
00:55:35,040 --> 00:55:37,440
Speaker 1: an interviewer, I think I stayed those first two or

1000
00:55:37,480 --> 00:55:40,400
Speaker 1: three days just out of total fascination. She said up

1001
00:55:40,400 --> 00:55:43,080
Speaker 1: her first encounter with Synanon in nineteen fifty nine, I

1002
00:55:43,120 --> 00:55:44,680
Speaker 1: was sick as a dog. I was going through the

1003
00:55:44,760 --> 00:55:47,440
Speaker 1: usual withdrawal symptoms and everything, but I was just fascinated.

1004
00:55:47,640 --> 00:55:50,000
Speaker 1: I had never been around addicts and such a motley

1005
00:55:50,040 --> 00:55:52,680
Speaker 1: lot of you know people. It was a weird scene.

1006
00:55:52,760 --> 00:55:55,359
Speaker 1: I got caught up in it. So Betty leaves and

1007
00:55:55,400 --> 00:55:57,919
Speaker 1: relapses a couple of times, but she keeps coming back,

1008
00:55:58,000 --> 00:56:00,879
Speaker 1: and eventually, in the early sixties she stays for good

1009
00:56:00,920 --> 00:56:03,560
Speaker 1: and she and Chuck get married UM, and she becomes

1010
00:56:03,600 --> 00:56:07,520
Speaker 1: like the co leader of Sinning On with him. UM.

1011
00:56:07,560 --> 00:56:09,880
Speaker 1: So there's a very progressive like. And again another one

1012
00:56:09,880 --> 00:56:11,960
Speaker 1: of these things is that like sitting on I don't

1013
00:56:11,960 --> 00:56:13,480
Speaker 1: care if you were a sex worker. I don't care

1014
00:56:13,520 --> 00:56:15,799
Speaker 1: like what you did. There's no judgment here other than

1015
00:56:15,840 --> 00:56:17,560
Speaker 1: the judgment that you were a dope addict and not

1016
00:56:17,600 --> 00:56:20,520
Speaker 1: an adult. You know, like it. It is like will

1017
00:56:20,640 --> 00:56:23,560
Speaker 1: we will continually judge you on them, Yeah, for the

1018
00:56:23,640 --> 00:56:28,040
Speaker 1: rest of your life, but also less than society outside will,

1019
00:56:28,160 --> 00:56:30,240
Speaker 1: which you do have to keep in mind at this point,

1020
00:56:30,280 --> 00:56:34,080
Speaker 1: you know. Um and the fact that everyone except for

1021
00:56:34,160 --> 00:56:36,920
Speaker 1: Chuck is getting judged equally harshly. I think there's a

1022
00:56:37,000 --> 00:56:40,000
Speaker 1: kind of radical egalitarianism to that that was, again to

1023
00:56:40,080 --> 00:56:44,120
Speaker 1: people in the margins of society, very compelling. Um So,

1024
00:56:44,160 --> 00:56:47,760
Speaker 1: Sinnon starts holding massive weekly parties with a jazz band

1025
00:56:47,800 --> 00:56:50,839
Speaker 1: and lots of cigarettes but no drugs or alcohol, and again,

1026
00:56:50,920 --> 00:56:54,440
Speaker 1: celebrities would drop by all the time. James Mason, Jane Fonda,

1027
00:56:54,520 --> 00:56:57,480
Speaker 1: Milton Burrow, and Natalie Wood were all guests of sinning

1028
00:56:57,560 --> 00:57:01,759
Speaker 1: On and multiple points Ray Adbury and Rod Serling gave

1029
00:57:01,880 --> 00:57:05,319
Speaker 1: lectures on site. Um So, this is like a big deal. Like,

1030
00:57:05,320 --> 00:57:08,520
Speaker 1: those are some fucking names. The only one that's weird

1031
00:57:08,600 --> 00:57:15,160
Speaker 1: to me, honestly is Milton Burl. Milton Burl, right, the Milton.

1032
00:57:17,240 --> 00:57:20,880
Speaker 1: I gotta explore other belief systems. This this is my

1033
00:57:20,960 --> 00:57:23,800
Speaker 1: one time. It's uh, let's let's see what's going on.

1034
00:57:24,480 --> 00:57:28,640
Speaker 1: It's weird that he that he was there. Yeah, Yeah,

1035
00:57:28,920 --> 00:57:32,400
Speaker 1: that Milton Burrel and Leonard Nimoy might have wound up

1036
00:57:32,440 --> 00:57:37,200
Speaker 1: screaming cocksucker and a bunch of junkies is a weird

1037
00:57:37,320 --> 00:57:43,600
Speaker 1: thing that could have happened. Um. By nineteen sixty five,

1038
00:57:43,680 --> 00:57:46,720
Speaker 1: cent and On was a bona fide phenomenon. It reached

1039
00:57:46,760 --> 00:57:49,440
Speaker 1: its apex of relevance and tried it in true Hollywood

1040
00:57:49,440 --> 00:57:54,640
Speaker 1: fashion with a major motion picture, Columbia Pictures debut, Yeah

1041
00:57:54,920 --> 00:57:59,040
Speaker 1: baby Ah and the trailer for this is fucking great

1042
00:57:59,080 --> 00:58:02,000
Speaker 1: Columbia Pictures to be feued sinning On in nineteen sixty five.

1043
00:58:02,520 --> 00:58:09,000
Speaker 1: Edmund O'Brien played Chuck Dettoric and Eartha Kit played Betty. Wow. Yeah,

1044
00:58:09,040 --> 00:58:13,080
Speaker 1: Eartha Kit, I kind of want to see the movie.

1045
00:58:13,120 --> 00:58:16,760
Speaker 1: I've seen the trailer and I love Eartha Kit right

1046
00:58:16,960 --> 00:58:21,320
Speaker 1: like she's fucking rad. Yeah. The movie tagline was dope

1047
00:58:21,320 --> 00:58:24,080
Speaker 1: then screamed the truth about the house where they lived together,

1048
00:58:24,200 --> 00:58:27,280
Speaker 1: love together while they fight their way back, And it

1049
00:58:27,320 --> 00:58:30,000
Speaker 1: was from the trailer. I think it was a very

1050
00:58:30,080 --> 00:58:33,240
Speaker 1: horny movie um like as Horny as You Could Be

1051
00:58:33,400 --> 00:58:39,160
Speaker 1: In nineteen sixty five, um Sinnanon also earned praise in

1052
00:58:39,200 --> 00:58:42,120
Speaker 1: the halls of power. U S. Senator Thomas J. Dodd

1053
00:58:42,160 --> 00:58:45,000
Speaker 1: declared in Congress that the program could quote lead the

1054
00:58:45,000 --> 00:58:47,280
Speaker 1: way in the future to an effective treatment for not

1055
00:58:47,320 --> 00:58:51,040
Speaker 1: only drug adicts, but also criminals and juvenile delinquents. He

1056
00:58:51,120 --> 00:58:54,880
Speaker 1: called sinning On the miracle on the beach. The psychologist

1057
00:58:54,960 --> 00:58:59,720
Speaker 1: Abraham Maslow also praised Cinnanon's no crap therapy. Courts started

1058
00:58:59,760 --> 00:59:04,600
Speaker 1: sinn addicts to Sinnnon as a condition of their parole. So, yeah,

1059
00:59:04,640 --> 00:59:09,440
Speaker 1: this is all gonna so. By the mid sixties, at

1060
00:59:09,480 --> 00:59:12,320
Speaker 1: the height of its popularity, Sinnaon had turned the art

1061
00:59:12,400 --> 00:59:15,320
Speaker 1: of keeping junkies clean into what it considered to be

1062
00:59:15,400 --> 00:59:18,800
Speaker 1: a science. Their first rule was that new addicts had

1063
00:59:18,840 --> 00:59:21,960
Speaker 1: to detox without any kind of medication. We're talking pure

1064
00:59:22,040 --> 00:59:25,400
Speaker 1: cold turkey here. Um. They generally be left on a

1065
00:59:25,480 --> 00:59:27,760
Speaker 1: couch or a bed to suffer through the shakes until

1066
00:59:27,760 --> 00:59:30,600
Speaker 1: they were well enough to partake in communal life. Because

1067
00:59:30,640 --> 00:59:33,560
Speaker 1: the real trick of sentaon it wasn't the treatment, it

1068
00:59:33,600 --> 00:59:35,760
Speaker 1: wasn't even the game. It was the fact that Chuck

1069
00:59:35,800 --> 00:59:39,320
Speaker 1: detoric was offering his members an entirely new vision of life.

1070
00:59:39,520 --> 00:59:43,480
Speaker 1: He had created a miniature society with its own social morays,

1071
00:59:43,480 --> 00:59:46,840
Speaker 1: in its own ways of policing behavior. From Cabinet Magazine quote,

1072
00:59:47,160 --> 00:59:50,920
Speaker 1: As long as people worked washing dishes, waxing floors, ironing laundry,

1073
00:59:50,920 --> 00:59:54,120
Speaker 1: painting walls, picking up food donations, they never had to leave.

1074
00:59:54,560 --> 00:59:57,680
Speaker 1: Cinndon was also self policed. You were expected to report

1075
00:59:57,720 --> 01:00:00,480
Speaker 1: those breaking the rules. Those who slacked off, who failed

1076
01:00:00,480 --> 01:00:02,840
Speaker 1: to tell someone else were taken to task in the game.

1077
01:00:03,160 --> 01:00:06,160
Speaker 1: Those who smuggled in contraband were given a haircut, A

1078
01:00:06,280 --> 01:00:09,680
Speaker 1: private dressing down from a senior member, repeated in fractions

1079
01:00:09,760 --> 01:00:12,720
Speaker 1: led to banishment. Put a pin in that haircut. Thing.

1080
01:00:13,160 --> 01:00:16,120
Speaker 1: So far not bad, right, you do bad ship, you

1081
01:00:16,120 --> 01:00:18,360
Speaker 1: get a private, perfectly held it. But they're running on

1082
01:00:18,400 --> 01:00:22,000
Speaker 1: the honor system. Well, there's some other things that are

1083
01:00:22,000 --> 01:00:25,920
Speaker 1: wrong there. But perhaps Cyndon's greatest innovation was realizing that

1084
01:00:25,960 --> 01:00:29,680
Speaker 1: addics knew more about addiction than medical specialists. The dope fiend,

1085
01:00:29,720 --> 01:00:33,000
Speaker 1: as Debtor consisted they be known, was painfully familiar with

1086
01:00:33,000 --> 01:00:35,760
Speaker 1: the tactics of denial and evasion that their colleagues used.

1087
01:00:35,920 --> 01:00:38,800
Speaker 1: What's more, they shared the same language. There was no wei,

1088
01:00:39,040 --> 01:00:41,560
Speaker 1: they and sent and on. If you spoke about caps

1089
01:00:41,560 --> 01:00:44,360
Speaker 1: and Binny's turp and horse, everyone knew what you were

1090
01:00:44,400 --> 01:00:47,240
Speaker 1: talking about. As for ded Oric, he was never coy

1091
01:00:47,320 --> 01:00:51,360
Speaker 1: about his role. I am considered a megalomaniacal nut, he declared,

1092
01:00:51,480 --> 01:00:53,960
Speaker 1: Of course this is true, but I'm not so crazy.

1093
01:00:54,280 --> 01:00:57,600
Speaker 1: He freely admitted to populating Syndon's board of directors with

1094
01:00:57,640 --> 01:01:01,200
Speaker 1: recovering addicts whom he could control. But no one doubted

1095
01:01:01,240 --> 01:01:04,720
Speaker 1: that this was wise and canny thinking. After all, those

1096
01:01:04,760 --> 01:01:08,640
Speaker 1: were dope fiends, and Debtoric was entering uncharted territory. Debtoric

1097
01:01:08,720 --> 01:01:10,960
Speaker 1: predicted that within three to five years at Cinnanon, a

1098
01:01:11,000 --> 01:01:13,160
Speaker 1: dope fiend would be ready to graduate back to the

1099
01:01:13,200 --> 01:01:16,959
Speaker 1: outside world. No one doubted debtoric sincerity. No worried about

1100
01:01:17,000 --> 01:01:19,920
Speaker 1: the ambiguous undertones to his most famous maxim, the one

1101
01:01:19,960 --> 01:01:22,240
Speaker 1: he told to those to each new arrival at Synanon,

1102
01:01:22,640 --> 01:01:24,760
Speaker 1: today is the first day of the rest of your life.

1103
01:01:24,800 --> 01:01:27,720
Speaker 1: Now what's interesting to me is that he's very open.

1104
01:01:27,760 --> 01:01:31,560
Speaker 1: He calls himself megalomaniacal. He basically says, I am the

1105
01:01:31,640 --> 01:01:36,000
Speaker 1: dictator of dope fiends, But Hey, American society in the sixties.

1106
01:01:36,200 --> 01:01:38,960
Speaker 1: You know, these people are mental children. They have to

1107
01:01:39,040 --> 01:01:42,000
Speaker 1: have a dictator and that's me, and this is good

1108
01:01:42,040 --> 01:01:46,920
Speaker 1: for society, and everyone says, yeah, that's scans. Um. I

1109
01:01:46,960 --> 01:01:51,280
Speaker 1: wonder how much of this is because he was like

1110
01:01:51,400 --> 01:01:55,320
Speaker 1: the in like the hierarchy of addicts that maybe an

1111
01:01:55,360 --> 01:02:01,760
Speaker 1: alcoholic outranks a dope that these I mean, because he's

1112
01:02:01,800 --> 01:02:05,920
Speaker 1: not he's because this is is it exclusively narcotics that

1113
01:02:05,960 --> 01:02:10,640
Speaker 1: people are coming to see he's drunk? It's mostly narcotics,

1114
01:02:10,720 --> 01:02:14,120
Speaker 1: because most drunks, you know, there's other things for them.

1115
01:02:14,160 --> 01:02:18,560
Speaker 1: It's mostly narcotics. Addicts people primarily I think heroin more

1116
01:02:18,600 --> 01:02:22,720
Speaker 1: than anything else. Um. And yeah, I suspect that is

1117
01:02:22,760 --> 01:02:25,840
Speaker 1: maybe an aspect of it is that he uh, he

1118
01:02:25,880 --> 01:02:27,800
Speaker 1: thinks these people are easier to control, you know, a

1119
01:02:27,840 --> 01:02:30,240
Speaker 1: dope addict is easier, is easy for someone like him

1120
01:02:30,240 --> 01:02:33,720
Speaker 1: to manipulate. Um. I think that's probably his attitude. And

1121
01:02:33,720 --> 01:02:36,760
Speaker 1: it's certainly the attitude like out again, nobody thinks this

1122
01:02:36,840 --> 01:02:39,280
Speaker 1: is weird or abusive what he's doing right, Well, yeah,

1123
01:02:39,720 --> 01:02:42,640
Speaker 1: of course, of course, the only thing for addicts is fascism.

1124
01:02:46,440 --> 01:02:50,880
Speaker 1: So from the beginning, graduation was very rare. While sending

1125
01:02:50,960 --> 01:02:55,000
Speaker 1: on claimed like a success rate, Chuck was increasingly reluctant

1126
01:02:55,000 --> 01:02:57,880
Speaker 1: to declare anyone cured. And again, a a to day,

1127
01:02:58,000 --> 01:03:00,560
Speaker 1: it's really hard to get good information on who actually

1128
01:03:00,640 --> 01:03:02,440
Speaker 1: how long people stay sober. It's the same thing for

1129
01:03:02,480 --> 01:03:06,560
Speaker 1: all rehab. Right rehab programs in general super sketchy about

1130
01:03:06,560 --> 01:03:10,920
Speaker 1: giving you solid numbers about relapses and whatnot. Um And

1131
01:03:10,960 --> 01:03:13,480
Speaker 1: it makes sense that Chuck wouldn't want to declare anyone

1132
01:03:13,640 --> 01:03:17,520
Speaker 1: cured because a cured person can relapse and that might

1133
01:03:17,560 --> 01:03:20,200
Speaker 1: throw the wisdom of your methods into question. Right. For

1134
01:03:20,280 --> 01:03:25,040
Speaker 1: another thing, if people get better, really better, then they'll

1135
01:03:25,120 --> 01:03:28,240
Speaker 1: leave Synanon. And in Chuck's head, Cynanon was already an

1136
01:03:28,280 --> 01:03:31,600
Speaker 1: improvement on and a replacement from mainstream society. So he

1137
01:03:31,640 --> 01:03:34,760
Speaker 1: doesn't want people to get out. And so when it

1138
01:03:34,800 --> 01:03:37,040
Speaker 1: seemed like his members were on the path to recovery,

1139
01:03:37,240 --> 01:03:39,880
Speaker 1: Chuck would warn them that they were still addicts. Now

1140
01:03:40,080 --> 01:03:43,360
Speaker 1: this isn't necessarily unreasonable, right, there's certainly an attitude you'll see.

1141
01:03:43,640 --> 01:03:45,400
Speaker 1: I don't think it's universal. Typ You're like, well, you're

1142
01:03:45,400 --> 01:03:47,960
Speaker 1: always an alcoholic, you're always an addict, And that's not

1143
01:03:48,000 --> 01:03:50,120
Speaker 1: necessarily that's not to like talk down to somebody. It's

1144
01:03:50,160 --> 01:03:51,720
Speaker 1: to keep in mind that, like, you always have to

1145
01:03:51,760 --> 01:03:53,880
Speaker 1: have an eye on this this part of yourself. Right.

1146
01:03:53,960 --> 01:03:57,680
Speaker 1: I don't think that's an unreasonable thing necessarily. Um. But

1147
01:03:57,760 --> 01:04:00,480
Speaker 1: Chuck was prone to more unsettling outbursts. He would tell

1148
01:04:00,520 --> 01:04:03,160
Speaker 1: members that as long as they still loved their mothers,

1149
01:04:03,200 --> 01:04:05,800
Speaker 1: they would never get over their drug problems. He would

1150
01:04:05,880 --> 01:04:12,320
Speaker 1: urge them to avoid family and was adamant that members must, well,

1151
01:04:12,360 --> 01:04:21,479
Speaker 1: here's your yea, this is innovative. Yeah. Um. He would

1152
01:04:21,560 --> 01:04:23,760
Speaker 1: urge them to avoid family, and he was adamant that

1153
01:04:23,800 --> 01:04:26,439
Speaker 1: members must follow his instructions to a t and stay

1154
01:04:26,440 --> 01:04:28,600
Speaker 1: in the group to have the best odds of staying sober.

1155
01:04:28,920 --> 01:04:32,240
Speaker 1: He frequently said that quote giving freedom to think to

1156
01:04:32,360 --> 01:04:34,960
Speaker 1: a dope addict is like giving a gun to a baby.

1157
01:04:36,360 --> 01:04:40,520
Speaker 1: Oh it's great. So we've hit the point where it

1158
01:04:40,560 --> 01:04:43,640
Speaker 1: becomes problematic, right, it's a it's a mixed bag, maybe

1159
01:04:43,640 --> 01:04:47,000
Speaker 1: even more bad than good. And by the late sixties,

1160
01:04:47,080 --> 01:04:51,160
Speaker 1: the worm has started to turn a bit um. By

1161
01:04:51,240 --> 01:04:54,240
Speaker 1: nineteen sixty eight, ten years after its founding, sinning On

1162
01:04:54,360 --> 01:04:57,200
Speaker 1: had at least eleven hundred members and and again even

1163
01:04:57,600 --> 01:05:01,040
Speaker 1: people who lived there thousands more have done some aspect

1164
01:05:01,080 --> 01:05:04,160
Speaker 1: of the programs right right UM, and it was receiving

1165
01:05:04,160 --> 01:05:07,360
Speaker 1: about two and a half million dollars a year in donations.

1166
01:05:07,360 --> 01:05:10,400
Speaker 1: This is the modern equivalent of about nineteen million dollars.

1167
01:05:10,960 --> 01:05:14,680
Speaker 1: The program expanded massively, buying up an additional seven million

1168
01:05:14,720 --> 01:05:17,640
Speaker 1: in real estate in Santa Monico, West l A, San Diego,

1169
01:05:17,720 --> 01:05:21,560
Speaker 1: San Francisco, Tomales, Bay Reno, New York, New York City, Detroit,

1170
01:05:21,600 --> 01:05:25,560
Speaker 1: and Puerto Rico. So this becomes like an empire, like

1171
01:05:26,400 --> 01:05:31,440
Speaker 1: he owns a lot of southern California. Now, since addicts

1172
01:05:31,640 --> 01:05:34,280
Speaker 1: come from every strata of society, sent it on members

1173
01:05:34,320 --> 01:05:36,600
Speaker 1: included gifted entrepreneur, There's a lot of people who were

1174
01:05:36,600 --> 01:05:38,960
Speaker 1: like homeless, who were you know, sex workers. There's a

1175
01:05:38,960 --> 01:05:42,400
Speaker 1: lot of people who were wealthy businessmen, lawyers, and he

1176
01:05:42,560 --> 01:05:45,600
Speaker 1: sets these folks to work buying up and using their

1177
01:05:45,680 --> 01:05:49,120
Speaker 1: money to buy up for the for sent and on

1178
01:05:49,320 --> 01:05:52,920
Speaker 1: a string of gas stations. UM. This eventually leads to

1179
01:05:52,960 --> 01:05:55,760
Speaker 1: him in the late sixties opening the door up to professionals,

1180
01:05:55,760 --> 01:05:58,680
Speaker 1: even those without drug addictions, who were interested in this

1181
01:05:58,760 --> 01:06:02,160
Speaker 1: new version of society that he was crafting. All they

1182
01:06:02,160 --> 01:06:04,160
Speaker 1: had to do to join and if you weren't an addict,

1183
01:06:04,200 --> 01:06:07,720
Speaker 1: was transfer your assets to the organization, And a number

1184
01:06:07,720 --> 01:06:12,480
Speaker 1: of people do this. This might be where it's become

1185
01:06:12,520 --> 01:06:20,880
Speaker 1: a cult. Yeah wow, I mean Jesus just like that's

1186
01:06:21,120 --> 01:06:23,400
Speaker 1: that's I mean, that's one of those situations where I'm out,

1187
01:06:23,680 --> 01:06:28,920
Speaker 1: Like if I mean you say that, Paul, I'm starting

1188
01:06:28,960 --> 01:06:32,120
Speaker 1: my cult. And if you are a wealthy businessman, you

1189
01:06:32,200 --> 01:06:34,880
Speaker 1: can live on the property that I buy with your

1190
01:06:34,880 --> 01:06:37,280
Speaker 1: money if you give your money to me. That's that's

1191
01:06:37,320 --> 01:06:42,040
Speaker 1: the behind the bastards guarantee. Now, will that property get

1192
01:06:42,120 --> 01:06:44,800
Speaker 1: rated by the f D A, Will our compound be

1193
01:06:44,920 --> 01:06:48,880
Speaker 1: burned down by an FBI f D A assault? Of course,

1194
01:06:49,520 --> 01:06:52,920
Speaker 1: of course, But that doesn't mean you can't help me

1195
01:06:52,960 --> 01:06:55,440
Speaker 1: own a string of gas stations. This is what I

1196
01:06:56,000 --> 01:06:59,040
Speaker 1: love about cult people is that it's always the point

1197
01:06:59,080 --> 01:07:01,360
Speaker 1: where it goes a little they get a little too greedy,

1198
01:07:01,680 --> 01:07:03,720
Speaker 1: where it's like, guess what if you just had the

1199
01:07:03,760 --> 01:07:07,360
Speaker 1: string of gas stations. That's not bad people need, that's

1200
01:07:07,400 --> 01:07:11,360
Speaker 1: not bad people. Yeah, where do you want to go

1201
01:07:11,400 --> 01:07:14,120
Speaker 1: buy gas? Well, let's buy gas from the the addiction

1202
01:07:14,200 --> 01:07:16,600
Speaker 1: Recovery program that for some reason owns a bunch of

1203
01:07:16,640 --> 01:07:20,960
Speaker 1: gas stations. Yeah, why not, um, But no, things go

1204
01:07:21,560 --> 01:07:24,800
Speaker 1: wildly off the rails very quickly at this point. So

1205
01:07:24,840 --> 01:07:27,760
Speaker 1: by early nineteen sixty four, sent it On had started

1206
01:07:27,800 --> 01:07:31,160
Speaker 1: advertising itself not as an addiction recovery program, but as

1207
01:07:31,160 --> 01:07:35,240
Speaker 1: an alternative society. Debtoric would draw in people by emphasizing

1208
01:07:35,240 --> 01:07:38,360
Speaker 1: that Sinnoon could help them live a quote self examined life.

1209
01:07:38,720 --> 01:07:41,200
Speaker 1: He started using some of the millions they had accumulated

1210
01:07:41,240 --> 01:07:45,280
Speaker 1: to build their first city in Marin County the end

1211
01:07:45,320 --> 01:07:47,320
Speaker 1: of the nineteen sixty And by the way, if you're

1212
01:07:47,360 --> 01:07:49,640
Speaker 1: building a city for your cold, you could do I mean,

1213
01:07:49,680 --> 01:07:56,040
Speaker 1: Marin Counties wonderful location for absolutely way better than Waco. Um,

1214
01:07:56,080 --> 01:08:01,280
Speaker 1: I mean, pricier than Wago, but less lamable. So the

1215
01:08:01,400 --> 01:08:03,840
Speaker 1: end of the nineteen sixties and the Summer of Love

1216
01:08:04,000 --> 01:08:07,440
Speaker 1: brought about a mass fascination with the idea of communes

1217
01:08:07,480 --> 01:08:10,160
Speaker 1: and of communal living. And this is all tied into win.

1218
01:08:10,880 --> 01:08:12,800
Speaker 1: You know, sent it On makes this turn. So this

1219
01:08:12,960 --> 01:08:15,160
Speaker 1: Eric gave us, I don't know, the city of Eugene, Oregon.

1220
01:08:15,240 --> 01:08:18,559
Speaker 1: But it also was a huge boost for Sinnon. People

1221
01:08:18,600 --> 01:08:22,320
Speaker 1: who weren't addicted to anything started being allowed to join. Now,

1222
01:08:22,400 --> 01:08:26,160
Speaker 1: not just professionals, anybody who like wanted to join sent

1223
01:08:26,240 --> 01:08:28,240
Speaker 1: and On basically as long as you were willing to

1224
01:08:28,280 --> 01:08:31,439
Speaker 1: like hand them a bunch of money. Uh. Non. Addicts

1225
01:08:31,479 --> 01:08:35,559
Speaker 1: who joined were called squares. Now. Briefly, Chuck toyed with

1226
01:08:35,600 --> 01:08:38,160
Speaker 1: the idea of so you've got squares and dope fiends,

1227
01:08:38,200 --> 01:08:42,040
Speaker 1: that's what they called themselves and sides. Chuck briefly toyed

1228
01:08:42,040 --> 01:08:44,840
Speaker 1: with the idea of letting his addict members leave sent

1229
01:08:44,920 --> 01:08:47,320
Speaker 1: it On facilities and live independently as long as they

1230
01:08:47,320 --> 01:08:49,800
Speaker 1: worked jobs and sent their money back to the organization.

1231
01:08:50,160 --> 01:08:51,960
Speaker 1: But he wound up dropping this idea because it's hard

1232
01:08:52,000 --> 01:08:54,479
Speaker 1: to control people who don't live inside the cult, you know.

1233
01:08:55,200 --> 01:08:59,160
Speaker 1: Um So, by the end of the nineteen sixties, Cinnaon

1234
01:08:59,320 --> 01:09:02,559
Speaker 1: had full lead cross the bridge from New Age addiction

1235
01:09:02,600 --> 01:09:08,280
Speaker 1: treatment program to cult. From Cabinet magazine quote when members

1236
01:09:08,320 --> 01:09:10,920
Speaker 1: stepped out of line. Now, the haircuts they received were

1237
01:09:10,960 --> 01:09:13,920
Speaker 1: literal ones, with men shaved, having their heads shaved for

1238
01:09:13,960 --> 01:09:16,839
Speaker 1: bad behavior, and women being forced to wear stocking caps.

1239
01:09:17,080 --> 01:09:20,160
Speaker 1: Whereas sex was rampant and Sentnon's early days, now members

1240
01:09:20,160 --> 01:09:22,559
Speaker 1: had to ask a Sinnon elder for permission to date,

1241
01:09:22,600 --> 01:09:25,240
Speaker 1: and we're forced to follow a strict and celibate courting ritual.

1242
01:09:25,720 --> 01:09:29,080
Speaker 1: Glut Raids were routinely run on residents rooms to confiscate

1243
01:09:29,080 --> 01:09:32,439
Speaker 1: excessive personal possessions and Debtoric and his elders would instigate

1244
01:09:32,520 --> 01:09:35,240
Speaker 1: arbitrary new rules, such as the twenty four hour day,

1245
01:09:35,479 --> 01:09:37,280
Speaker 1: in which half of Centnon would go to work at

1246
01:09:37,360 --> 01:09:39,600
Speaker 1: night while the other half worked during the day. A

1247
01:09:39,680 --> 01:09:42,360
Speaker 1: cent Anon police force patrolled the nearby streets looking for

1248
01:09:42,400 --> 01:09:45,120
Speaker 1: members who might be breaking the rules. You know your

1249
01:09:45,160 --> 01:09:47,760
Speaker 1: cults doing well when you got your own cops. That's

1250
01:09:47,760 --> 01:09:51,639
Speaker 1: the wild, wild country ship. Right. It's exciting to know

1251
01:09:51,720 --> 01:09:57,479
Speaker 1: that glut raids prefigured Um Marie Condo, Yeah it is.

1252
01:09:57,520 --> 01:10:00,400
Speaker 1: It is nice, right, Yeah, he's it's amaze saying, like

1253
01:10:00,439 --> 01:10:05,400
Speaker 1: what a mix of Marie Condo scientology and like maoist China,

1254
01:10:05,520 --> 01:10:12,200
Speaker 1: this cult becomes so Charles Alverson was a journalist and

1255
01:10:12,240 --> 01:10:14,880
Speaker 1: novelist and a Square who spent six months living at

1256
01:10:14,880 --> 01:10:17,439
Speaker 1: a Sinnon center. In an interview with The Fix, he

1257
01:10:17,520 --> 01:10:19,799
Speaker 1: said that during his time there in the late sixties,

1258
01:10:19,840 --> 01:10:22,559
Speaker 1: he saw synonym as mostly positive, a way to help

1259
01:10:22,600 --> 01:10:25,439
Speaker 1: addicts get control over their lives again, but he also

1260
01:10:25,479 --> 01:10:27,639
Speaker 1: saw evidence that it was starting to head in a

1261
01:10:27,800 --> 01:10:31,519
Speaker 1: very dark direction. Quote. I recall being rooted out of

1262
01:10:31,520 --> 01:10:34,120
Speaker 1: bed about midnight to witness a long term members sitting

1263
01:10:34,160 --> 01:10:36,280
Speaker 1: in a garbage can with his head shaved because he

1264
01:10:36,320 --> 01:10:39,080
Speaker 1: had been caught using. This was quite common and an

1265
01:10:39,120 --> 01:10:41,880
Speaker 1: indication of that some of the cured weren't quite so cured.

1266
01:10:42,240 --> 01:10:45,559
Speaker 1: Despite the egalitarian veneer of Synanon, det Eric was always

1267
01:10:45,560 --> 01:10:49,200
Speaker 1: the father figure, Big Cahuna, boss of bosses. At mass meetings,

1268
01:10:49,200 --> 01:10:52,280
Speaker 1: new Synton triumphs were announced and new enemies were announced.

1269
01:10:52,560 --> 01:10:57,000
Speaker 1: Such techniques kept the wagons circled. The game evolved from

1270
01:10:57,000 --> 01:10:59,640
Speaker 1: being primarily a therapeutic tool to being an instrument of

1271
01:10:59,680 --> 01:11:02,960
Speaker 1: social will control. Members were increasingly forced to confess to

1272
01:11:03,040 --> 01:11:06,839
Speaker 1: misdeeds during sessions. Secrets were not allowed, and the information

1273
01:11:06,840 --> 01:11:09,799
Speaker 1: members gave up about themselves provided the organization with blackmail

1274
01:11:09,840 --> 01:11:11,800
Speaker 1: material they could use if they later tried to leave.

1275
01:11:11,960 --> 01:11:14,880
Speaker 1: Scientology does the same thing. It's really like very similar

1276
01:11:14,920 --> 01:11:18,520
Speaker 1: to like the auditing sessions and stuff in Night exceparates.

1277
01:11:18,560 --> 01:11:21,040
Speaker 1: You're in a huge group too, which is an interesting wrinkle.

1278
01:11:21,600 --> 01:11:24,519
Speaker 1: In nineteen sixty seven, Charles Dederic decided to end the

1279
01:11:24,560 --> 01:11:29,280
Speaker 1: concept of graduation entirely. His justification was that most X

1280
01:11:29,320 --> 01:11:32,280
Speaker 1: addicts would revert to using once they left. Now, this

1281
01:11:32,360 --> 01:11:34,960
Speaker 1: is still a problem today. Relapse rates for addiction within

1282
01:11:35,000 --> 01:11:37,200
Speaker 1: the first year of people who go to modern rehab

1283
01:11:37,200 --> 01:11:41,680
Speaker 1: facilities are between forty and six. Chuck considered this unacceptable,

1284
01:11:41,720 --> 01:11:44,519
Speaker 1: and the best way to ensure no one relapsed was

1285
01:11:44,560 --> 01:11:47,160
Speaker 1: to ensure that no one ever left rehab. He told

1286
01:11:47,200 --> 01:11:52,839
Speaker 1: one follower, We're getting out of the dope fiend business now. Now,

1287
01:11:53,080 --> 01:11:55,000
Speaker 1: the goal of cent and On was not to perform

1288
01:11:55,000 --> 01:11:56,960
Speaker 1: attics to get them clean, to help them take control

1289
01:11:57,000 --> 01:11:59,400
Speaker 1: of their lives. If you entered the program, you were

1290
01:11:59,439 --> 01:12:02,960
Speaker 1: expected to never leave. The goal was no longer sobriety.

1291
01:12:03,200 --> 01:12:05,759
Speaker 1: The goal was to build, with the guidance of Chuck Detoric,

1292
01:12:06,000 --> 01:12:09,599
Speaker 1: a new utopian world order destined to take the world

1293
01:12:09,640 --> 01:12:13,240
Speaker 1: by storm. Now fully occult leader, Chuck began to insist

1294
01:12:13,320 --> 01:12:16,040
Speaker 1: to his followers, this is the kind of revolution that

1295
01:12:16,080 --> 01:12:20,160
Speaker 1: moved the world from Judaism to Catholicism, to Protestantism to Sinninism.

1296
01:12:20,479 --> 01:12:27,080
Speaker 1: This is a total revolution game. Remember, he's starting his

1297
01:12:27,240 --> 01:12:32,320
Speaker 1: addicts trying to get off doubt. He's really going for it.

1298
01:12:32,640 --> 01:12:37,240
Speaker 1: He's really going for it. If you're gonna do something,

1299
01:12:37,479 --> 01:12:41,920
Speaker 1: do it right. He's really going all the way. Yeah,

1300
01:12:42,080 --> 01:12:44,360
Speaker 1: he's This is the first cult leader since l Ron

1301
01:12:44,439 --> 01:12:46,639
Speaker 1: Hubbard who at least is like, yeah, you know what

1302
01:12:46,960 --> 01:12:51,280
Speaker 1: you committed. Motherfucker can take that away from you. You

1303
01:12:51,400 --> 01:12:59,600
Speaker 1: with all in on this ship. Yeah. Uh, Paul, you

1304
01:12:59,680 --> 01:13:03,120
Speaker 1: got any plug doubles to plug? Well? Sure, I always

1305
01:13:03,160 --> 01:13:07,880
Speaker 1: like to plug. Um. One of life simple joys I have.

1306
01:13:08,200 --> 01:13:11,040
Speaker 1: I have a handful of podcasts happening right now. I

1307
01:13:11,120 --> 01:13:14,320
Speaker 1: have the Stay of Homekins with that I do with

1308
01:13:14,360 --> 01:13:17,839
Speaker 1: my wife Jenny had Had Tompkins. I have a Freedom,

1309
01:13:17,840 --> 01:13:20,719
Speaker 1: which I do with Scott Ackerman and Lauren Lapkus. Um,

1310
01:13:20,760 --> 01:13:24,320
Speaker 1: I have uh Star Trek the Pod Directive, which is

1311
01:13:24,360 --> 01:13:26,479
Speaker 1: a the official Star Trek podcast that I host with

1312
01:13:26,640 --> 01:13:29,360
Speaker 1: Tony Newsome. Those are all free wherever you get your podcasts,

1313
01:13:29,360 --> 01:13:31,559
Speaker 1: and then uh, if you have a little extra money

1314
01:13:31,640 --> 01:13:34,000
Speaker 1: at the end of the month, Um, the Neighborhood Listen

1315
01:13:34,080 --> 01:13:36,559
Speaker 1: will be coming back. That will be on Stitcher Premium

1316
01:13:36,600 --> 01:13:42,080
Speaker 1: before it becomes free at some point in the indeterminate future. Well,

1317
01:13:42,120 --> 01:13:44,560
Speaker 1: I am glad since you do a Star Trek podcast

1318
01:13:44,640 --> 01:13:46,439
Speaker 1: that I was able to give you this fun fact

1319
01:13:46,479 --> 01:13:51,240
Speaker 1: about Leonard Nemo which I cannot wait to tell Tonny

1320
01:13:51,400 --> 01:13:56,520
Speaker 1: this is really well, this has been behind the bastards.

1321
01:13:56,640 --> 01:13:59,080
Speaker 1: You can find us various places online, but what you

1322
01:13:59,080 --> 01:14:02,680
Speaker 1: should really do is check out my new podcast, the

1323
01:14:02,720 --> 01:14:06,200
Speaker 1: audio book of my novel After the Revolution, wherever podcasts

1324
01:14:06,200 --> 01:14:08,400
Speaker 1: are sold. You can also find the e book, which

1325
01:14:08,439 --> 01:14:10,680
Speaker 1: is being announced, you know, coming out three chapters a

1326
01:14:10,720 --> 01:14:13,800
Speaker 1: week on a t r book dot com. That's a

1327
01:14:13,880 --> 01:14:17,040
Speaker 1: t r book dot com. It's free. Check it out,

1328
01:14:17,680 --> 01:14:21,040
Speaker 1: check out Paul's podcasts, and I don't know, start an

1329
01:14:21,040 --> 01:14:24,320
Speaker 1: addiction recovery center that buys up most of southern California

1330
01:14:24,360 --> 01:14:27,559
Speaker 1: and creates its own police force. Maybe maybe you'll do

1331
01:14:27,560 --> 01:14:30,320
Speaker 1: it nice this time. Maybe maybe you'll be the one

1332
01:14:30,360 --> 01:14:37,400
Speaker 1: who figures it out. Part one,