Speaker 1: It drives on tour every week and you seek Golfers Bay.
Speaker 1: You hit a drive and you just pick up the
Speaker 1: tea and you walk off. You can't pick up the
Speaker 1: tea at the Old Course. You never know where it's
Speaker 1: going to finish. You know, there's no it's because down
Speaker 1: when the ball runs a hundred yards and it's like
Speaker 1: the ball can go. You could land on the right
Speaker 1: hand soil of the fairway and miss the fairway to
Speaker 1: the left. You know if it's going to run a
Speaker 1: hundred yards but sort of bounces it gets so you've
Speaker 1: never got to pick up the team moment at the
Speaker 1: Old Course, which is I don't know. People think it's
Speaker 1: flukey and there's a bit of luck involved, but there's
Speaker 1: no luck involved. If that if Tom Own, Nicholas sevy Faldo,
Speaker 1: Tiger one, there so much that's that's actually removing luck.
Speaker 1: If you actually analyzed it, probably put another log on
Speaker 1: the fire nobody hears. Give it time. Hello, This is
Speaker 1: Alan ship knocked back for another Fire Drill podcast, delayed
Speaker 1: to be joined by Michael Bamberger, Matt Janella and US
Speaker 1: Open champion Jeff Ogilvie. We're talking about the Old Course
Speaker 1: and the Open Championship and all the related fun issues
Speaker 1: real quick. Want to thank our corporate sponsors will help
Speaker 1: us keep the lights on here at the Firebit Collective
Speaker 1: that's part Points, Seed Golf and Link Soul. We've talked
Speaker 1: about each of these companies individually. We believe in them,
Speaker 1: we use our products, we love them, and so thank
Speaker 1: you for the support to all those fine places. And
Speaker 1: so let's just let's just jump right in here, Jeff.
Speaker 1: What makes the Old Course such a charming test of
Speaker 1: golf and such a fun tournament venue? Wow? I mean
Speaker 1: the name helps you know a minutes the O g right,
Speaker 1: it's the original golf course. Um, it's been there forever.
Speaker 1: Just driving from Edinburgh an exciting experience. I feel like
Speaker 1: the closer you get to the town, the me start
Speaker 1: saying sort of the buildings and it's just so old
Speaker 1: and it's just such a just the town I think
Speaker 1: makes it as much as anything else. There's grooves in
Speaker 1: the sidewalk from the metal spikes over the last few
Speaker 1: hundred years walking up the side. You're actually out of
Speaker 1: place if you're not wearing golf clothes when you go
Speaker 1: anywhere there, And it's truly just it's just in the
Speaker 1: it's just in the buildings, and it's in the town,
Speaker 1: just the culture of the game over the last four
Speaker 1: or five hundred years, and the golf course itself, it
Speaker 1: is just it's the best first team in golf place
Speaker 1: by some stretch. I think it's a very nerve wracking, exciting,
Speaker 1: thrilling sort of experience. Just tearing off on the old
Speaker 1: course and you've got this very docile, gentle first hole
Speaker 1: which doesn't really give you any sets of what's to come.
Speaker 1: And then you get in the second hole and you
Speaker 1: just get further and further away and sort of spotted
Speaker 1: with these random bunkers all over the place, and the
Speaker 1: course makes no sense at all. And then the more
Speaker 1: you play it, the more you play it, gradually it
Speaker 1: it sort of shows itself. And it doesn't you can't
Speaker 1: work it out. It'll show you when it's ready to
Speaker 1: show you, you know, and you've got to play it
Speaker 1: lots and lots of times and lots of different way
Speaker 1: the conditions, and gradually it sort of starts making it
Speaker 1: a sense. To the point when you get to the
Speaker 1: you come to a realization or and a waking or
Speaker 1: a moment of enlightenment that you realize that this is
Speaker 1: actually why golf is such a great sport, because this
Speaker 1: is the starting point of the whole thing, and it's
Speaker 1: set it off in such an amazing direction, and it
Speaker 1: just makes you. It makes you a better golfer, and
Speaker 1: it makes you like golf more than you did before.
Speaker 1: And as you come back into town, you're getting closer
Speaker 1: and closer and closer and closer to town. The spires
Speaker 1: on the cathedrals in the buildings are getting taller and taller,
Speaker 1: and you're getting closer to the seventeenth. Sort of you've
Speaker 1: gotten your mind for the last few holes, and then
Speaker 1: you get to come up eighteen, which is the flip
Speaker 1: of which is the flip of the first with this
Speaker 1: big wide fairway, and you've even outside the open, you've
Speaker 1: got spectators. They're crossing the fairway. When you've got to
Speaker 1: wait for spectators cross the fairway while you're about to
Speaker 1: play eighteen. People clap applaud good approach shots on eighteen,
Speaker 1: even on a public play day. And you come all
Speaker 1: the way back into town and I'm into the clubhouse
Speaker 1: at a loss. It's just everything. As I said, I
Speaker 1: just think golf is such an amazing sport because it
Speaker 1: got set off in such a good direction by the
Speaker 1: all course to begin with. I think we should just
Speaker 1: end this podcast like that, that's a rap, saying it's
Speaker 1: a rap? What do we say on top of that?
Speaker 1: Transcribe it printed out for your grandchildren, because you're not
Speaker 1: going to get a better description. I mean, I'm literally
Speaker 1: about to I'm like, actually, I am, I am, I
Speaker 1: have a tear in mynd Like I was like, oh
Speaker 1: my god, that was That was like the only only quibble, Jeff.
Speaker 1: I would say, it's the trolleys that create the rut
Speaker 1: in the sidewalks. In other words, the jets come down
Speaker 1: with their trolleys right down through your town, and it's
Speaker 1: that was beautiful, Jeff. Well, I mean, Matt and Michael,
Speaker 1: you guys like myself, we've been privileged to be there,
Speaker 1: for to be in Saint Andrew's during open weeks and
Speaker 1: just during regular play. I mean, what are some of
Speaker 1: your your favorite memories and some of your favorite experiences there. Well, yeah,
Speaker 1: I was very fortunate. I got a trip over to
Speaker 1: the UK with dad. My dad was visiting his sort
Speaker 1: of aging mother who I've basically never met, and she
Speaker 1: lived in the Isle of Man, this little island between
Speaker 1: the UK and Ireland. So the whole purpose is the
Speaker 1: trick was to visit her so he could see her
Speaker 1: one last time. But he sort of took me with
Speaker 1: him and we sort of landed London and we got
Speaker 1: a rental car and we just drove around and I
Speaker 1: was already frothing on golf and I'd read a lot
Speaker 1: of books by then, which is kind of weird for
Speaker 1: a sixteen year old kid. But we ended up traversing
Speaker 1: the country and got to the Old Course at one point,
Speaker 1: and just as I said, it's just the excitement when
Speaker 1: you come into the town is worth the trip, just
Speaker 1: to go to the town and visit. And normally when
Speaker 1: you play the Old Course, you've got to go in
Speaker 1: the ballot. You can't book a tea time, really, you
Speaker 1: go and you've got to put your name down with
Speaker 1: the startup for every time the next day. And so
Speaker 1: we did that. We were laid into town four or
Speaker 1: five o'clock the day before and we put our name down.
Speaker 1: The guys like, you're doubtful here, but you never know.
Speaker 1: You'll see how you go. And we missed out on
Speaker 1: the ballot. But he said, if you don't get the ballot,
Speaker 1: come down as a two ball, there might be a
Speaker 1: two ball who gets on and they might let you join.
Speaker 1: So he turned up at like seven or eight in
Speaker 1: the morning and waited around, and finally there's this Swedish
Speaker 1: couple who said, yeah, we'd love to play with another
Speaker 1: two So we got out that first day we were there,
Speaker 1: which was incredibly fortunate. We went out with them and
Speaker 1: played and played it at sixteen, and I was in
Speaker 1: love for the first moment. I mean, I kind of
Speaker 1: want to hate it because everyone historically has hated it
Speaker 1: first time and Bobby Jones tore up his card and
Speaker 1: walked off the course. I mean, there's a lot of
Speaker 1: stories like that. But I loved every minute because I
Speaker 1: knew I wanted to like it before I got there,
Speaker 1: so it wasn't really a fair thing. But I had
Speaker 1: beautiful weather, played it, had a great time, so I
Speaker 1: was lucky to play it at sixteen. And then I
Speaker 1: played the Sandrews Lynks Trophy and amatea tournament probably the
Speaker 1: coolest ammuate tournament in the world by a long stretch.
Speaker 1: It used to cost US forty pounds to play the
Speaker 1: Sandrew's Links Trophy, which was around on the Old and
Speaker 1: the new first day and then thirty six on the
Speaker 1: old on the Sunday, so you would or the second
Speaker 1: day so you would get a practice round on the
Speaker 1: older the new, and three rounds around the Old and
Speaker 1: another round on then for forty pounds. This is the
Speaker 1: best deal in the world with all the best golfers
Speaker 1: in the world played with Justin Rose in that and
Speaker 1: a tone of the guys that you sort of see
Speaker 1: today or you've seen over the time. Everyone who can't
Speaker 1: play that tournament does and it was so I played
Speaker 1: it a lot growing up as an amateur. And then
Speaker 1: the three opens there a few eyes, a few other visits.
Speaker 1: Scottie and I Adam used to come and go and
Speaker 1: camp a couple of times. We camped in the Old
Speaker 1: Course hotel before and opened. When it opened was somewhere
Speaker 1: else and we'd stay there and you would play all
Speaker 1: around five Fleet, London Links and leaven Links and Krayle
Speaker 1: and all the Sandrew's courses and it's just an incredible region.
Speaker 1: But the Old Course is just the place. Yeah, And
Speaker 1: my first Open I finished, I wasn't playing very well
Speaker 1: the whole time, and I'd just snuck in and make
Speaker 1: the cut. I think I parted Birdie the eighteenth at
Speaker 1: nine twenty on Friday night to make the cut and
Speaker 1: had a nice week, and it was really slow playing
Speaker 1: in the Open at Sandrew's, which is my only pick
Speaker 1: probably playing the Open at Sandrew's because all the double greens,
Speaker 1: like in US Precious Pros, we're not going to hit
Speaker 1: when somebody else is hitting, so we're always waiting for
Speaker 1: somebody else to part and hit a shot. You're always
Speaker 1: you're often playing the holes from the other fairway, the
Speaker 1: corresponding fairway on the way in because the strategy a
Speaker 1: long times just to go up the other side. Had
Speaker 1: finished fifth in the end, that one that Tiger won
Speaker 1: his second one sort of had a backdoor fifth Birdie
Speaker 1: sixteen thirty, fifteen, seventeen and eighteen. I've had a birdie
Speaker 1: seventeen on Sunday, was pretty nice feeling, hit it up
Speaker 1: on the green about twenty five feet and made the part.
Speaker 1: That was a pretty nice feeling, and you get that
Speaker 1: fantastic raw that you get the British Open that's unique
Speaker 1: only to that tournament. And then Birdie the last to
Speaker 1: finished fifth. Felch was pretty exciting, so lots of good memories.
Speaker 1: It's been a pretty learn how to drink scotch whiskey
Speaker 1: on that top floor, that whiskey bar up the top
Speaker 1: of the Old Court hotel. That's sort of taught me
Speaker 1: how to like scotch. So um a lot of times.
Speaker 1: It's an address, that's true. I think there's only one
Speaker 1: slight note we could add to everything that's been said.
Speaker 1: It's so obvious, but there maybe some people don't know.
Speaker 1: It's a muni. I was going to say it's closed
Speaker 1: on Sundays and used as a park land for the locals.
Speaker 1: That's the best part about it. And I think it's
Speaker 1: and that's Scotland again. It's not only the old course
Speaker 1: that's set off golf in the right direction. It's Scotland.
Speaker 1: We all everywhere. All the other countries managed to mess
Speaker 1: it up, but they started it off so well. It's
Speaker 1: it's the it's the town's land. It's public land. You
Speaker 1: can't nobody owns it. There's a golf club that operates
Speaker 1: and sort of looks after the land, but nobody owns
Speaker 1: it and the golfers generally, the public has a right
Speaker 1: away over the golfers. You know, it's their lands, Like
Speaker 1: you can play golf here if you lock, but don't
Speaker 1: get in the way of anyone who's just trying to
Speaker 1: have a good time. You know. Such a fantastic athos
Speaker 1: and golf kind of lost its way, and the place
Speaker 1: is sort of grasp that concept that this is sort
Speaker 1: of a game for all and a bit of this
Speaker 1: is a nice area and you can play golf if
Speaker 1: you want to let everyone out out here enjoy it
Speaker 1: as well. I think it's fantastic when you go there
Speaker 1: Sunday and there's people walking their dogs on the eight eighth,
Speaker 1: that's sitting down having a picnic in the valley of
Speaker 1: sin and stuff. It's just incredible. It's just makes it
Speaker 1: even more special. It's which I just I just I
Speaker 1: just saw it for the first time on a Sunday,
Speaker 1: after having gone there several times and played fortunate enough
Speaker 1: to play the course several times. The first time I
Speaker 1: played it was actually with Alan, which is a whole
Speaker 1: separate story which I hope we get to. But I
Speaker 1: rolled up on a Sunday and was just captivated and
Speaker 1: astounded by the visuals, which was the way of the dogs,
Speaker 1: the throwing the balls with kids, the picnicking in the valleys,
Speaker 1: and like it was all happening right there, and I
Speaker 1: was like, oh, this really is closed on Sundays and
Speaker 1: this really is open to the public. And that it
Speaker 1: made me feel exactly that same sentiment, which is, how
Speaker 1: did we lose our way? How did we get so
Speaker 1: far removed from what this is as it relates to
Speaker 1: the game of golf, And we were just chatting just
Speaker 1: before coming on, and the beauties of some municipals haven't
Speaker 1: lost their way, like goat Hill Park where dogs are allowed,
Speaker 1: where you can where John Ashworth essentially has created that ethos,
Speaker 1: which is that golf for all, come as you are.
Speaker 1: This is your recreational time. Who am I to say
Speaker 1: what you were or how you know? Yeah, they're general rules,
Speaker 1: but otherwise, go have fun, utilize this land in a
Speaker 1: way that makes sense as a community. It's just so
Speaker 1: special when you come upon it and feel like you
Speaker 1: know and and again the idea that the old course
Speaker 1: is it and has been it for hundreds of years.
Speaker 1: It's like, just look back to that as your guide
Speaker 1: if you're managing a municipal, if you are in you know,
Speaker 1: if you are a municipality, this is it, Well might
Speaker 1: add to that, it's also it's truly our mecca and
Speaker 1: when you go there, there's a very large expectation that
Speaker 1: you'll play with people who do not speak English. People
Speaker 1: come from all over the world to play that golf
Speaker 1: course because people all over the world love this game.
Speaker 1: I think that's part of the beauty of it as well.
Speaker 1: I can't think of another golf course where you would
Speaker 1: say that so clearly. Yeah, well, okay, since Matt mentioned it,
Speaker 1: we just have to tell the story. We'll do the
Speaker 1: short version of the first time we played the old course.
Speaker 1: This was ninety seven. We went on this bender that
Speaker 1: was organized by some other sports illustrated guys. It was
Speaker 1: sixteen rounds and nine days. First time I've ever been
Speaker 1: in Scotland. Really somewhat uneducated about the links golf experience,
Speaker 1: and so we got to the Old course and didn't
Speaker 1: realize he had to show proof of handicap. We did
Speaker 1: not have any cards. This is before smartphones and this
Speaker 1: there's a grumpy old starter in the shack said well,
Speaker 1: you'll have to provide proof if you're going to play
Speaker 1: the course. And so this was in the this was
Speaker 1: early morning and so in Scotland. We were racking our brains.
Speaker 1: You know, everyone in New York we knew was asleep.
Speaker 1: Even in California. It was probably eleven o'clock at night.
Speaker 1: But match brother was living in Hawaii, so would the
Speaker 1: time change. So we were like, oh, we got to
Speaker 1: call Sean. And so we rang them up on some
Speaker 1: public phone and explain the situation and asked if he
Speaker 1: could concoct some counterfeit letter attesting to our handicaps. And
Speaker 1: so he had some graphic design skills, so he made
Speaker 1: up was at the Bay Country Club like a phony
Speaker 1: letter head and instead and not only did he write
Speaker 1: like our our handicaps, it was like this long, flowery
Speaker 1: letter about how we were upstanding members of the club
Speaker 1: and we we were the chairs of this committee, and
Speaker 1: we had volunteered for for this and that, and it
Speaker 1: was this an unbelievable letter that he faxed over to
Speaker 1: the starter and I'll never forget this. This this like
Speaker 1: wrinkly um, you know, old Scottish dude with the gin
Speaker 1: blossoms on a those like wraps on the glass. He's like, gentlemen,
Speaker 1: your letter has been received. And it was like, oh,
Speaker 1: thank God, And we got to go and play the
Speaker 1: old course, but it was one of the all times Shenanigans.
Speaker 1: Well yeah, and then then the thing was is that
Speaker 1: we had to get picked in the ballot, like we
Speaker 1: had to wait, we had to get it. We had
Speaker 1: to get an available time because we didn't get the
Speaker 1: ballot box. We had to get an available time, and
Speaker 1: we had to get this this proof of handicap. And
Speaker 1: so while we were waiting for a spot, we went
Speaker 1: to that little pay phone that I still think i've
Speaker 1: I saw recently right down the street, right near the museum,
Speaker 1: and that's what we called. We called my brother and
Speaker 1: he pretended to be some sort of director of golf
Speaker 1: at Turtle Bay Golf Club down the street in Hawaii.
Speaker 1: And that's how we were able to get on. I
Speaker 1: mean we had we had a handicap. We weren't we
Speaker 1: weren't in theory sort of you know, violating any kind
Speaker 1: of came out of play golf. But we didn't have
Speaker 1: any of the necessary credentials. That's actually the lowest my
Speaker 1: handicaps ever been. I think he made me like a
Speaker 1: plus one or something. And then we went out back,
Speaker 1: we went out again. We went back out for another
Speaker 1: eighteen holes, we got separated, but we went back out
Speaker 1: and we got to play two eighteen hole rounds in
Speaker 1: one day. Yeah. And to your point, Michael, I got
Speaker 1: paired with these airline pilots and they were Scandinavian. I
Speaker 1: can't remember which country they hailed from, and you know,
Speaker 1: they weren't speaking English, and but they were good players
Speaker 1: and it was just like, um, it is. It is
Speaker 1: an amazing melting pot. And and you know, let's talk
Speaker 1: about the merits of the old course, Jeff. I want
Speaker 1: your take on this as as it's become so much
Speaker 1: of a power game and they have tipped it out
Speaker 1: as much as they can. You're now teeing off on
Speaker 1: three or four different golf courses. It feels like where
Speaker 1: they've they've put these new teas for the open to
Speaker 1: try and keep up. And I mean, for for the
Speaker 1: recreational golfer's it's as fun as it gets and the
Speaker 1: challenge is never ending. Um. But for for the best pros,
Speaker 1: I mean, does does the old course still stay in
Speaker 1: the test of time? What was your take on that?
Speaker 1: I think so. I mean, it's disappointing someone where that
Speaker 1: some of the teas are now that you kind of
Speaker 1: have to um because the coolest part about the old
Speaker 1: course is probably you you finished the first I mean
Speaker 1: one of those ten original rules. Are those one of
Speaker 1: the eight original rules of golf. It's like tea up
Speaker 1: within one club length of the previous hole. Used to
Speaker 1: just you just put out and you're tee it up
Speaker 1: next to the hole and you'd go that was the rules.
Speaker 1: The old course actually does that. The traditional original teas
Speaker 1: are basically touching the previous grain. You play the first,
Speaker 1: you walk to the edge of the first green, you play,
Speaker 1: the second, you walk to the edge of the second green,
Speaker 1: you play the third. You do that all the way around.
Speaker 1: Now we walk back one hundred yards in every hole,
Speaker 1: which is necessary. And that's a debate for a different time,
Speaker 1: but I think it generally does. I don't think par.
Speaker 1: You've got to take par away from the equation and
Speaker 1: just see what questions does it ask, and it just
Speaker 1: it asks every question. You've got to move the ball
Speaker 1: both ways. You've got to understand. You've got, as I
Speaker 1: said before, you have to play the course a lot.
Speaker 1: Because everyone's complaint when they first play the old course,
Speaker 1: as they say it's blind, but it isn't blind. It's
Speaker 1: actually it shows you where to hit it. You just
Speaker 1: have to play the hole that you play the course
Speaker 1: enough to sort of start learning what to look at
Speaker 1: you it. Gradually she shows herself over time and playing
Speaker 1: it in lots of different conditions. Bunkers that you thought
Speaker 1: were just made no sense at all, and this place
Speaker 1: is weird. The next day when it blows into the wind,
Speaker 1: all of a sudden, you're hitting it into those bunkers
Speaker 1: you didn't even think. We're sort of relevant bunkers. And
Speaker 1: as time goes on, it's the ultimate sort of think
Speaker 1: test for a golfer. It's an execution test because you're ball.
Speaker 1: You're never on a flatler. Your ball is always above
Speaker 1: your feet or blow your feet down slope, up slope.
Speaker 1: The bunkers have some other worldly mystical magnetism to them
Speaker 1: that it just goes from you think you've given it
Speaker 1: forty thirty forty yards, I mean you give it twenty
Speaker 1: yards of sort of air on the right or left
Speaker 1: of some of these bunkers. It's the width of the
Speaker 1: viewers open fairway and the ball will still find its
Speaker 1: way into it. So you've got to really understand the course.
Speaker 1: What wind does to a lynx and hit all the shots.
Speaker 1: I mean it looked historically back I mean Peter Thompson
Speaker 1: won there, Jack won there, Tiger dominated their Foaldo one
Speaker 1: there when he was number one in the world. It's
Speaker 1: a it's a sort of a platform for the best
Speaker 1: to show why they're the best, because it's a complete
Speaker 1: test of golf. And I don't think that changes even
Speaker 1: with shorter clubs into the holes. I really don't, because
Speaker 1: the question you're doing it with different clubs, but the
Speaker 1: questions are still asked. And I think often wedges into
Speaker 1: greens at the old course is sometimes a disadvantage because
Speaker 1: it's easier to be running the ball in with a
Speaker 1: sixth n sometimes than it is with a wedge. So
Speaker 1: I think the scores get a lot lower and it's
Speaker 1: a lot longer than it used to be. But I
Speaker 1: think the fascination there isn't really they're hitting it straight
Speaker 1: up the fairway and hitting it straight on the green.
Speaker 1: It's finding your best way around it, and sometimes that
Speaker 1: can be thirty forty degrees off to the left or
Speaker 1: thirty forty degrees off to the right, and then quite
Speaker 1: often you'll play it up the fifth on the fourteenth hole,
Speaker 1: which is you're making a five hundred and fifty yard
Speaker 1: hole six hundred and fifty yards, but it's avoiding the
Speaker 1: bunkers and making sure you don't hit it into hell
Speaker 1: bunker on your second shot. You're making sure two shots
Speaker 1: before that that you can't hit it into hell bunker
Speaker 1: and stuff like that. So I think that's all still there.
Speaker 1: I think you'll see great players win there or players
Speaker 1: with complete games putting. It's an amazing test. I mean,
Speaker 1: I think one of the funnest parts about the open
Speaker 1: there is that the fairways and the greens are basically
Speaker 1: the same speed. You know, the last a couple of
Speaker 1: times we've been there, they've had to put dots around
Speaker 1: the edge of the green just so we can see
Speaker 1: where the pin position is is measured from, because it
Speaker 1: really is irrelevant. The ball acts the same fairway degreen,
Speaker 1: and I think that's sort of beautiful and when we
Speaker 1: lost that in golf, and you can't really create it
Speaker 1: in any other places but links. But I think that's
Speaker 1: one of the coolest part about it. And I think
Speaker 1: maybe the best part about it why I think it's
Speaker 1: a great test is the Yadish books are almost irrelevant.
Speaker 1: You know, you cannot play the Old Course of a
Speaker 1: Yardish book. I mean the Yardist books are a lot
Speaker 1: better now and they sort of give you lines and
Speaker 1: stuff and all that. But you, as I said, you
Speaker 1: just have to play the course so much and have
Speaker 1: the imagination to realize how to avoid the bunkers and
Speaker 1: best get around there. And that's not a yardist book thing.
Speaker 1: That's just an open minded sort of use your experience,
Speaker 1: use all of your requisite skills to sort of navigate
Speaker 1: around it with avoiding the bunkers and creating angles where
Speaker 1: you can actually play it from. And I don't think
Speaker 1: that's got anything to do with distance, So I think
Speaker 1: that's um it's a deeper version of golf, which I
Speaker 1: think is always interesting regardless of how low it is
Speaker 1: relative to part. It's still to me one of the
Speaker 1: most amazing things that Tiger Wood's ever did in his
Speaker 1: unparalleled careers that he played sevent two holes in an
Speaker 1: Open Championship at the Old Course and didn't hit it
Speaker 1: into a single bunker. It's just incredible. It's main biggling
Speaker 1: because as you said that, you know a lot of
Speaker 1: the land slopes towards they're like funnels. They you can
Speaker 1: hit a good shot and it's still just by one yard,
Speaker 1: it catches the wrong bounce and it just funnels fifteen
Speaker 1: yards into the bunker. Like it's just it's absolutely incredible.
Speaker 1: You can almost not pick up You see pros pick
Speaker 1: up the tea. You know that drives. It drives on
Speaker 1: tour every week and you see golfers. But you hit
Speaker 1: a drive and you just pick up the tea and
Speaker 1: you walk off. You can't pick up the See the
Speaker 1: Old Course, you never know where it's going to finish,
Speaker 1: you know, there's no it's because down when the ball
Speaker 1: runs one hundred yards and just like the ball can go,
Speaker 1: you could land on the right hand side of the
Speaker 1: fairway and mister fairway to the left. You know if
Speaker 1: it's going to run a hundred yards but sort of
Speaker 1: bounces it gets so you've never got to pick up
Speaker 1: the team moment at the Old Course, which is I
Speaker 1: don't know. People think it's flukey and there's a bit
Speaker 1: of luck involved, but there's no luck involved. If that
Speaker 1: if Tom Own, Nicholas Sevy Faldo Tiger one, there so
Speaker 1: much that's that's actually removing luck. If you actually analyzed it,
Speaker 1: probably Um, it's fantastic, Michael. You've you've been referred to
Speaker 1: as the poet of the lynx Land. Um. You know, Jeff,
Speaker 1: Jeff plays the course one way with his boundless skill.
Speaker 1: You love the ground game to the point that the
Speaker 1: e club you invented was in Lee Trevino's bag at
Speaker 1: the Old Course. Um, so what is it about about
Speaker 1: that canvas that particularly, you know, stirs your soul? Well,
Speaker 1: thank you for remembering that, Alan, And I think it's
Speaker 1: telling that Jeff just referred You never hear this anymore,
Speaker 1: but people used to refer to ships is with a
Speaker 1: feminine pronoun and Jeff just referred to the Old Course
Speaker 1: with she and and Trevino after he went to Mary
Speaker 1: and said, you know, I just fell in love with
Speaker 1: a you know, a girl named Mary, and I don't
Speaker 1: even know her last name or something like that. But
Speaker 1: in other words, the point being is that a really
Speaker 1: great golf course does come alive and part of the
Speaker 1: life of this golf course. This wouldn't just be true
Speaker 1: for Jeff and Jeff's level, it would be true for everybody.
Speaker 1: There are so many ways to play every single shot there,
Speaker 1: like if you go to if you go to the
Speaker 1: press room, a Quad Cities guy will say, you know
Speaker 1: I hit a three when you know the Ferway hit
Speaker 1: a six armhole high, I made the putt. You could
Speaker 1: never go through your car that quickly at the Old
Speaker 1: Course for any of us, because there's so many options
Speaker 1: on every single shot and h and that's part of
Speaker 1: the fascination, you know. I had this conversation with with
Speaker 1: with Fred Couples for us pardon me. First Open Championship
Speaker 1: was eighty four at the Old Course, and he fell
Speaker 1: in love with it completely. This was astounding to me.
Speaker 1: But I'm gonna I'm gonna do it in the form
Speaker 1: of a question, Jeff, what is the longest shot you've
Speaker 1: ever hit into eighteen at at the Old Course? I
Speaker 1: had a couple of times in the Links Trophy where
Speaker 1: it played into the wind and we really struggled to
Speaker 1: get it to the road. Um, which is what one
Speaker 1: twenty front, one hundred hundred and twenty front something like that. Um. Yeah,
Speaker 1: so probably an eight on from one hundred and ten
Speaker 1: or something. Probably that's Fred had the exact same thing.
Speaker 1: I couldn't believe it because I played in a lot
Speaker 1: of different wins, but I've never played anyone, you know.
Speaker 1: And even that even for the ordinary golfer, you know,
Speaker 1: to hit driver into the valley center in still conditions
Speaker 1: or down wind, it's not that hard. But Fred in
Speaker 1: his first year on Sunday hit driver that maybe just
Speaker 1: made it to the road and then he hit a
Speaker 1: nine are in which he holds uh to end his day.
Speaker 1: So on any given day the golf course is so
Speaker 1: so different. Um, just to add one little thing to
Speaker 1: this that we would we would all know instinctively, but
Speaker 1: but just to say it out loud, when you think
Speaker 1: about how how old the old course is and that
Speaker 1: there's really no known architect, and that Charles Blair McDonald, uh,
Speaker 1: you know, great American aristocrat who basically invented golf in
Speaker 1: American away went over there, fell in love with the
Speaker 1: game and brought it back and started building golf courses
Speaker 1: around the turn of the last century. And then this
Speaker 1: Golden Age period of architects. And Jeff Smida said this
Speaker 1: because he's working at Mednah, but Medignah and Maryon which
Speaker 1: we've already mentioned, in Pine Valley and Riviera and almost
Speaker 1: every other course, they're sort of interpreting what McDonald already
Speaker 1: brought to the United States right from Saint Andrew's. So
Speaker 1: I guess what I'm trying to say is that that
Speaker 1: multiplayer and feed effect of Saint Andrew's is built everywhere
Speaker 1: in golf. How about how about this if you take
Speaker 1: Old Tom and his impact on architecture, and you take
Speaker 1: Donald Ross who came and spent time with Old Tom
Speaker 1: and essentially learned from Old Tom, and then Donald Ross
Speaker 1: comes to the US and builds Fort Bragg. I believe
Speaker 1: in Pete Dye worked at Fort Bragg and used to
Speaker 1: call Donald Ross from time to time to sort of
Speaker 1: better understand the essence of Fort Bragg as maybe even
Speaker 1: a superintendent at the time. Pete Dye goes on to
Speaker 1: be an architect, and then Bill Core works for Pete
Speaker 1: Dye and then goes on to be an architect. Essentially,
Speaker 1: you have lineage from Old Tom all the way to
Speaker 1: Bill Kore, who's currently still building golf courses. It's beautiful, Yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean, how cool is that? It's really cool? Very
Speaker 1: very cool. You know, these lines through the game are
Speaker 1: part of why we love it so much. And and
Speaker 1: you know, and Augusta National is neat and we all
Speaker 1: love being at Augustina National. But you know the fact
Speaker 1: that the starting point here is that the whole world
Speaker 1: can come and play this place. By the way, I've
Speaker 1: never had the experience of showing up at Saint Andrew's
Speaker 1: and not being able to get on the old course.
Speaker 1: And I'm not talking about calling friends you know who
Speaker 1: are members places. I just mean showing up at the
Speaker 1: shack like like Jeff did with his dad, giving them
Speaker 1: your name and sitting there and reading a book until
Speaker 1: they call your name. What do you talk about? Augusta
Speaker 1: Augusta that was Jones's Saint Andrews in America. Um, that
Speaker 1: was his whole point. If you when you play holes
Speaker 1: like five and fourteen, it's like that's just that's all
Speaker 1: that is, is the old course. It's just it's just
Speaker 1: so obviously the Old course, so America's most famous golf course.
Speaker 1: A direct connection. It was. He was trying to mimic
Speaker 1: the shots you needed it the old course in Tuja,
Speaker 1: Like it's the effect is incredible. Yeah, I mean, that's
Speaker 1: that's why it stands a test of time, is because
Speaker 1: it inspires us and um, the shot values and the
Speaker 1: strategy and you know, I remember the first time I
Speaker 1: played it, just standing there looking at those double greens
Speaker 1: that you know, we're one hundred yards wide, and I
Speaker 1: think on on fifteen or was it maybe it might
Speaker 1: have been sixteen, but I hit like a vicious hook
Speaker 1: and I had about one hundred and twenty yard put
Speaker 1: from the you know, the other green, and um, I
Speaker 1: lag it up to like eight feet. It's one of
Speaker 1: my favorite memories. And all golf like, um, you know,
Speaker 1: I'd never seen that before. And then um and then
Speaker 1: you go, you go to these these neo courses and
Speaker 1: they're excited because they've built a couple of double greens
Speaker 1: and and um, like it's like the these these these
Speaker 1: ideas are so enduring, and they're the simplicity. Everybody know,
Speaker 1: the demonic to remember the double greens. They always add
Speaker 1: up to what, oh the magic number of a magic
Speaker 1: numbers eighteen? Yeah, yeah, there's But it's so great. It's
Speaker 1: so great because there's no human ego involved. Like the course,
Speaker 1: the old course created the game. The game didn't create
Speaker 1: the old course. I mean, people build golf courses to
Speaker 1: play golf on. The old course created the game. That's
Speaker 1: why it's so great. That's why all that bunkers are
Speaker 1: in the right place, and the whole place makes sense
Speaker 1: because the game evolved around that piece of land, you know,
Speaker 1: and that game that of land created the game we
Speaker 1: play now. You know. That's that's why it's timeless and
Speaker 1: it works because it's everything is where it is because
Speaker 1: that's just where the game was best played from and
Speaker 1: the property created that. You know. That's why they're such
Speaker 1: magnetic bunkers because they weren't bunkers and the boards just
Speaker 1: always ended up there and so it ended up being
Speaker 1: a hole, so it created it just became a bunk
Speaker 1: as that's where the ball always ended up. You know,
Speaker 1: it's fantastic. Jeff, have you have you ever played the
Speaker 1: Old Course reverse? Do you know about this? Yeah? They
Speaker 1: do it once or twice a year. I think it's fascinating.
Speaker 1: Ever actually done it. You've got to pay there on
Speaker 1: that day Rot. Yeah, well you've got to plan it
Speaker 1: all out. It would be really interesting because a lot
Speaker 1: of the holes make a lot of sense the way
Speaker 1: we play them now, but a lot of them make
Speaker 1: no sense, like the twelve Holes, the most ridiculous Old World,
Speaker 1: and you play it backwards, it's like, oh, okay, now
Speaker 1: I get it exactly. I did it in two thousand
Speaker 1: and four, it's on it's on April Fools Days when
Speaker 1: when they do it, which shows that RNA does have
Speaker 1: a sense of humor. And um, if you can think
Speaker 1: of the you know, the course is basically a loop,
Speaker 1: and normally you play it counterclockwise, but for most of
Speaker 1: the history of the older course they played it month
Speaker 1: by month in different other direction. One time you go clockwise,
Speaker 1: but times you go counterclockwise. And I'm not saying this
Speaker 1: to be like a hipster. I actually liked it better
Speaker 1: in reverse. Some of the holes made more sense and
Speaker 1: some of the shots were more fun. And but you know,
Speaker 1: in after after World War two, and it depends if
Speaker 1: you're Missus Rowles if you miss it rot. Yeah, it
Speaker 1: totally does, totally does. But um, and it's wild to
Speaker 1: think that that's possible. Now Tom Doe can mimic the
Speaker 1: whole concept um at Forest Dunes and did an incredible job.
Speaker 1: But um, the it just it melts your brain to
Speaker 1: think about like this golf course can you can play
Speaker 1: in either direction? And um, and you know when when
Speaker 1: you play in reverse, the iconography is totally different, Like
Speaker 1: you're hitting a draw around the old course hotel down
Speaker 1: the road hole and um, stuff like that. You know,
Speaker 1: it's it still works and um, anyway, I'll have to
Speaker 1: oft to see if I can find my old story
Speaker 1: that Rover for Sports Illustrating. If we can, if we
Speaker 1: can show, I'll link to it on on Firepick Collective
Speaker 1: dot com. Because it's just it's it tells you how
Speaker 1: great that piece of land is, how clever the hazards
Speaker 1: are and and the bunkers that you can go either
Speaker 1: direction and it's still a fabulous test. You know. Um,
Speaker 1: we spent some time over there, the fire Pick Collective
Speaker 1: rolled in there, you know, we were we were hired
Speaker 1: by MasterCard to do some stories leading into the Open
Speaker 1: one hundred and fiftieth Open, and so the idea we
Speaker 1: came up with was pay homage to old Tom Morris.
Speaker 1: And we went in with just sort of the general
Speaker 1: sense of like, let's try to learn as much as
Speaker 1: we can about old Tom Morris. And we started reaching
Speaker 1: out to historians and teachers, and you know, we stopped
Speaker 1: by the museum, We went to local business owners like
Speaker 1: the the and then we ran into and got access
Speaker 1: to Sheila Walker, his great great granddaughter. Michael. You wrote
Speaker 1: a beautiful a little basically little mini essay about Sheila
Speaker 1: Walker because you happen to bump into her in one
Speaker 1: of the open uh you know, wandering around it during
Speaker 1: one of the Open Championships, which we read leading into it,
Speaker 1: and the whole goal was like can we find Sheila
Speaker 1: Walker too, which we ended up getting a two and
Speaker 1: a half hour interview with her that we ultimately ended
Speaker 1: up being the spine of our four part series that's
Speaker 1: on Firepit Collective dot com now. And then we got
Speaker 1: to go back for Patron's Day. But I have I
Speaker 1: always was fascinated by old Tom and then getting a
Speaker 1: chance to speak to his great great granddaughter, who, by
Speaker 1: the way, lives still above the shop, looking out over
Speaker 1: the window, out of the window overlooking the eighteenth Green.
Speaker 1: She still lives there. She's in her seventies. She's like
Speaker 1: one of the most magnificent people I've ever interviewed in
Speaker 1: my life. She tends her garden in the backyard of
Speaker 1: what literally is the home at the Home of Golf.
Speaker 1: I mean, this is the home of Golf. On the
Speaker 1: door it still says like old Tom Morris, you know house,
Speaker 1: like this is the Tom Morris house. And we got
Speaker 1: to wander her garden with her and Michael. You would
Speaker 1: ask her like, oh, do you you know, do you
Speaker 1: have the same green thumb that he had, you know,
Speaker 1: sort of as his contributions to the agronomy of golf,
Speaker 1: most notably top dressing, which is still used, you know,
Speaker 1: wildly today. And she said, oh, no, no, no no, I
Speaker 1: have green it's green fingers. It's not green thumb, it's
Speaker 1: green fingers. She to this day still walks across the
Speaker 1: eighteenth Green and the first tea out to the beach,
Speaker 1: collects a little bucket of sand that she then brings
Speaker 1: back to her yard and top dresses her little patch
Speaker 1: of grass that she has in her backyard. It is like,
Speaker 1: this is still happening right now as we speak. Great
Speaker 1: marketing op for fire Pick Collective. We go over there
Speaker 1: with water bottles, fill it with Saint Andrew's Bay Beach sand,
Speaker 1: put it on ebit, sell it, sell it. Actually, she
Speaker 1: said that the beach, not all beaches are what's that
Speaker 1: movie out? And yes, yeah, they use that beach, but
Speaker 1: you know, she points out Sheila points out that that
Speaker 1: not all beaches have the kind of minerals that help,
Speaker 1: you know, grass grow and Fortunately the Saint Andrew's Beach
Speaker 1: does and we get top dressing because, as the story
Speaker 1: was told to us, that one of Old Tom's workers
Speaker 1: was walking through the course with a wheelbarrel full of
Speaker 1: sand and it toppled over, and so they scooped it
Speaker 1: back up and they continued on with the wheelbarrow, and
Speaker 1: afterwards noticed that where that sand had dropped and there
Speaker 1: was this top dressing of sorts. This the grass was
Speaker 1: growing better than the other grass. So we incorporated that
Speaker 1: and said, well, let's put it all over the golf course.
Speaker 1: And that's top dressing. Amazing. Jeff, do you have any
Speaker 1: memory Can you remember specifically being announced on the first
Speaker 1: tea the first time you would have played the old
Speaker 1: course in an opened I imagine by Iva Robeson. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I don't specifically remember it because I don't think I
Speaker 1: would be hearing it. I'll be just sort I've opened
Speaker 1: or not. I don't think the headspace changes on that team.
Speaker 1: It's a nervous experience. It's just it's an incredible there's
Speaker 1: an incredible and there can be nobody there and there's
Speaker 1: atmosphere just for you. I mean, it's a self created
Speaker 1: atmosphere in it when you hit that t shot, it's
Speaker 1: I've always the best. I mean, he's had such that
Speaker 1: most distinct voice. M No real specific memories, but completely
Speaker 1: freaking out. Like I you get nervous on the first
Speaker 1: team mages, but it's different, it's different there, there's a
Speaker 1: whole other element to it. Getting the ball on the
Speaker 1: tea is pretty tough and you just hope to make contact.
Speaker 1: It's very thankful that it's an easy shot generally, just
Speaker 1: bump a the line down there and on your go.
Speaker 1: But just to your story about Freddie. Before, I've seen
Speaker 1: the first I've played the first hole where I've hit
Speaker 1: driver six iron short of the burn. Wow. And I've
Speaker 1: played it where I've hit five, and I've played it
Speaker 1: where I've hit five iron in the burn off the tea.
Speaker 1: So yeah, the course changes every day. But yeah, it's
Speaker 1: a freaky. It's a it's a special nerves though it's
Speaker 1: a happy it's not a scared nervous that too, is it.
Speaker 1: It's just a respect for the whole place nervous and um,
Speaker 1: you're kind of a bit on your own too, Like
Speaker 1: the first teas and majors, due usually there's people everywhere.
Speaker 1: It's quite. It's quite a rowdy atmosphere. The spectators don't
Speaker 1: really start there until you get down to sort of
Speaker 1: one hundred meters off the tea sort of thing on
Speaker 1: the right and they're way away on the left. Um,
Speaker 1: so you kind of just with the group in the
Speaker 1: start there, which is a kind of a nice and
Speaker 1: a few of the the bluecoats on the steps with
Speaker 1: a gin and tonic or a glass around or something
Speaker 1: having a look at having a look down the fairway
Speaker 1: with you. But yeah, it's a fantastic first tea shot. Wow.
Speaker 1: Like Jordan Speet just said this last week, you know
Speaker 1: that that an Open at Saint Andrew's is the best
Speaker 1: tournament we play. I think you arguably in there, which
Speaker 1: I wish he hadn't, but um, I think that was
Speaker 1: he was just being played. I mean, you know, a
Speaker 1: US Open at Pebble Beach or at at Oakmans, you
Speaker 1: know that's special. But um, can we say without a
Speaker 1: doubt that this is this is the greatest feather in
Speaker 1: the cap of any golfer to win the Open at
Speaker 1: the Old Course? Is there that even in a debate
Speaker 1: and to that point, Alan and I know we don't
Speaker 1: do this easily but the career of Zack Johnson is astounding.
Speaker 1: For for Zack Johnson, who might be sneaky long, but
Speaker 1: isn't long long to have one at the Old Course
Speaker 1: in Augustine National is a real incredible statement on his
Speaker 1: golfing skill and his intelligence. He just he forever and
Speaker 1: now he's a writer Cup captain for whatever reason, he
Speaker 1: doesn't really he's not in the pantheon conversation. But and
Speaker 1: he's not, but he's damn damn close. And those two
Speaker 1: things alone, you know, for John You know, John Daly,
Speaker 1: how he didn't win a Masters is almost a mystery,
Speaker 1: but the fact that he did win there playing it
Speaker 1: totally differently, I imagine, from the way that plays it.
Speaker 1: I remember Nicholas was almost freaking out by some of
Speaker 1: the shots that Daly was playing when he won there,
Speaker 1: because it's just like, that's not how you played the
Speaker 1: Old Course. But but the truth is it is how
Speaker 1: he plays the Old Course, because there's numerous ways to
Speaker 1: play it. In fact, Fred said the same thing the
Speaker 1: other day. He was playing with Gary Player those first
Speaker 1: rounds and eighty four, and Gary Player said, sound you
Speaker 1: a good golfer, but that's not how you paid the
Speaker 1: old course, and Fred's like, I didn't know any better.
Speaker 1: That's awesome. Oh so, Michael, you're you're actually a voter
Speaker 1: for the Hall of Fame. Let's put you on the spot.
Speaker 1: Is Zack Johnson a Hall of Famer? He's got I
Speaker 1: think a dozen wins. He's got those two majors at
Speaker 1: the holiest of holies. Yes or no Hall of Famer.
Speaker 1: I can say this because I said it to Fred's face.
Speaker 1: I didn't vote for Fred. Uh so uh I h
Speaker 1: and he's in. So now that Fred's in, it would
Speaker 1: be completely totally unfair not to have zach in Davis
Speaker 1: is in Fred's and yes he's you know, fore Yorick's
Speaker 1: getting in. I'm voting for Ogilby just because of the
Speaker 1: introduction he gave to the old person Lifetime Lifetime game.
Speaker 1: Just a very quick note for those who don't know
Speaker 1: Iver Robes and that name will fade in time over
Speaker 1: the years, but you know, the four of us know
Speaker 1: that name. He was a long time starter. He had
Speaker 1: any eccentric habits which won't get into now, but one
Speaker 1: of his things, and Jeff helped me, if I don't
Speaker 1: have this quite right, is he would he would say
Speaker 1: the name of the player he would say on the
Speaker 1: tea and then well, I'll just do it like he
Speaker 1: did on the tea from Australia, and then there'd be
Speaker 1: a little pause and then it would be like he
Speaker 1: would be surprised, but like he's got the name there
Speaker 1: and he's looking at the guy on the tea from Australia,
Speaker 1: Jeff Ogilby. That was very good. Yeah, but it was
Speaker 1: the pause. Yeah, No, it's a dramatic pause, dramatic effect.
Speaker 1: Janella has stuck onto the first tea on the tea
Speaker 1: from USA, not Jella, and he would stand on the
Speaker 1: first tea at the open from seven o'clock till four
Speaker 1: twenty and never leave the first tea for anything. It's unbelievable,
Speaker 1: like four days, absolutely on le legend. And by the way,
Speaker 1: I know you players don't like it, but we like it.
Speaker 1: The idea of starting everybody on that first tea and
Speaker 1: everybody finishing on eighteen is absolutely part of the appeal
Speaker 1: of the whole thing. And they killed that US Open
Speaker 1: at Marion when they did this weird, weird way of
Speaker 1: starting things. But you know, you get unlucky, but you
Speaker 1: get lucky. But it plays out over time. Can I
Speaker 1: I'm realizing my role and my role on this podcast
Speaker 1: is just to randomly insert some really cool Old Tom anecdotes.
Speaker 1: But in the in the in the record, in the
Speaker 1: production of what we created this four part series, we
Speaker 1: there was a snow day one of the days. We
Speaker 1: woke up, we looked out the window and the old
Speaker 1: courses covered in snow. It was like it was like
Speaker 1: two inches of snow on the old course, I mean,
Speaker 1: and we were like, oh my god. And we essentially
Speaker 1: went out and you know, we had snowball fights, we
Speaker 1: built snowman. It was We've flew the drone. It was
Speaker 1: like it was like a playground. And by two o'clock
Speaker 1: and it all burnt off. But we ended up calling
Speaker 1: and meeting up with Gordon mckeeth, the current superintendent, the
Speaker 1: course manager, they call him and would you believe that
Speaker 1: he's only the ninth course manager since Old Tom Morris's
Speaker 1: He's and he says to this day that you know,
Speaker 1: Old Tom's face is in the side of the RNA
Speaker 1: clubhouse near the clock, I believe, overlooking the old course.
Speaker 1: And he says, you know that matters to him, like
Speaker 1: he thinks about him every day that he's managing this
Speaker 1: piece of turf, which is just tremendous. The ninth superintendent
Speaker 1: that is, I think there's something we're leaving out here.
Speaker 1: Of course, it's a great university town, it's got wonderful museum,
Speaker 1: it's got night restaurants. One of the great drinking towns
Speaker 1: of all time ever anywhere. Now, Jeff Cheff made a
Speaker 1: reference to it, Uh, you know, drinking Scotch whiskey on
Speaker 1: the whiskey on the up in the old Coursey tail.
Speaker 1: But it's a load of it bars and of course
Speaker 1: you walk to your hotel. I say this not as
Speaker 1: a heavy drinker myself, but if you choose to be
Speaker 1: a heavy drinker, it's a great place to be a
Speaker 1: heavy drinker, as long as you look both ways before
Speaker 1: crossing the street, because traffic can be can't be wild there.
Speaker 1: But basically, you're playing golf, you're gonna have for dinner,
Speaker 1: having a drink or two and stumbling in your room
Speaker 1: and then doing it again and then and then, as
Speaker 1: as we've all alluded to, um more good golf courses
Speaker 1: than you can shake a stick at right in the
Speaker 1: surrounding area. I had the experience when when Harrington. When
Speaker 1: Harrington won at Carnousti, I was staying in Saint Andrews
Speaker 1: my friend Burtistowns, and one night I wanted to pay
Speaker 1: a green fee, but there was no one to pay
Speaker 1: a green fee two so I just went out in
Speaker 1: the first hole and started playing the old course. And
Speaker 1: then somehow I made a mistake and like am I
Speaker 1: and I had sort of we found my way from
Speaker 1: the old course onto the new. At that moment, Tom
Speaker 1: Doku used to who counted one summer at the old course?
Speaker 1: He called. He just happened to call and he said, well,
Speaker 1: tell me where you are, and I described it. He said, oh, yeah,
Speaker 1: I know where you are. Yeah, you slipped over onto
Speaker 1: the new He said, you see that dune played for
Speaker 1: over that June. You'll be back back in action. And
Speaker 1: then I played and I played literally right through seventeen two.
Speaker 1: When I got to seventeen two was about ten o'clock
Speaker 1: at night, and there was a gang, you know, waiting
Speaker 1: to finish. But you know, I played sixteen holes by
Speaker 1: myself and two hours out of outstanding, Michael, what is
Speaker 1: the best part I've ever made in my entire life?
Speaker 1: The best part that you've ever made an entire life
Speaker 1: under the eternal condition. The answer, I do know the answer.
Speaker 1: I don't know if I should share it. I'm gonna
Speaker 1: leave it to you. Two thousand and fifteen open. You
Speaker 1: know I'm not one for discretion. You know that, you
Speaker 1: guys know that. At this point, me, Michael and our
Speaker 1: young colleague shan Zac sneaked out to play the eighteenth
Speaker 1: hole at the Old Course at midnight or so, and
Speaker 1: we just took a took a couple of clubs and
Speaker 1: I had a pretty good drive, you know, it's all feel.
Speaker 1: It was dark, got it across the road and I
Speaker 1: think only had a seven iron, had a little little
Speaker 1: knock down seven and hit it to about twenty feet
Speaker 1: pretty good. First put left myself like three feet. And
Speaker 1: now some some dudes materialized on the back rail. They
Speaker 1: were overlooking the green. We thought they were security. So
Speaker 1: we're all nervous, we're gonna get, you know, sent to
Speaker 1: the clink. But the great ones find a way to
Speaker 1: steady their nerves even under tremendous pressure. And I somehow
Speaker 1: rattled in this breaking three foot or for par And
Speaker 1: it turned out they weren't security guys. They were just
Speaker 1: some drugs who were watching us play golf, and that
Speaker 1: was definitely the best part of my life and treasured memory.
Speaker 1: That was fun. That was fun. You know, just to
Speaker 1: follow up on some of that that Jeff said about
Speaker 1: how the bunkers, you know, all the balls rolled into
Speaker 1: there and before you knew it had a bunker. Now
Speaker 1: I imagine that they're really worst shape on that golf course.
Speaker 1: That probably got the bunkers there in the first But
Speaker 1: leaving those but with those two things of mind, Fred
Speaker 1: was saying the other day, you're gonna play shots out
Speaker 1: of divots there because just for the reason Jeff said,
Speaker 1: there's so many collection areas. And then I said, and
Speaker 1: then I said to Fred, the whole things you did it.
Speaker 1: And Fred's like, yeah, the whole things that did it.
Speaker 1: You know, it depends on the year, and there are
Speaker 1: years that it's green, but at best it's pale green.
Speaker 1: I guess really, you know, as getting deeper in this conversation,
Speaker 1: it's the anti Augusta National, which is a very good
Speaker 1: golf course, but like, I don't think you can talk
Speaker 1: about Augusta National and Saint Andrew's in the same breath
Speaker 1: because it's pale. It loves pale, and you know, to
Speaker 1: that phrase of Rhes Jones is that scruffiness is a
Speaker 1: traditional golfing value. It's like such a beautiful phrase. I'm
Speaker 1: saying it fast because they've viewed it so often. I
Speaker 1: believe it so much, But it is so hard to
Speaker 1: get people understand because every year CBS bombards us with
Speaker 1: these spectacular images of Augusta National Green, green green. But
Speaker 1: if we saw Saint Andrews in drought conditions or you know,
Speaker 1: dry summers, even though they do of watering on the
Speaker 1: of course, now you know irrigation system on the golf course.
Speaker 1: Now pale is the really beautiful golf course color. And
Speaker 1: of course it's different in different parts of the world,
Speaker 1: depending on the diplomatic conditions. But I wish more places
Speaker 1: really had the confidence to understand that, and I appreciate
Speaker 1: that inact accordingly, I think you have to hit off
Speaker 1: the fairways first, though, Like you haven't hit an iron
Speaker 1: shot that felt good until you've hit it off a
Speaker 1: proper links fairway, Like there is nothing like it. I mean,
Speaker 1: people talk about blades, I mean blades or make a
Speaker 1: golf shot feel better, but that is a smaller jump
Speaker 1: from a cavity to a blade than it is from
Speaker 1: a green Augusta fairway to an old course fairway. I mean,
Speaker 1: especially the first and eighteenth fairway, that might be the
Speaker 1: best grass that that's ever grown anywhere to hit a
Speaker 1: golf shot off. I mean it is. It's a feeling
Speaker 1: unlike any other. And I think if people played on
Speaker 1: turf like that and it's not really planted, they don't
Speaker 1: put specific seeds of us out the I think they've
Speaker 1: tested that fairway a few times and there's like eight
Speaker 1: hundred different sorts of fescues and clovers and different things
Speaker 1: in there, and it's just again like the course has
Speaker 1: evolved strategically and architecturally, the turf is evolved to being
Speaker 1: perfect for golf, and it's I think if you played
Speaker 1: off a little bit more often, people would understand that
Speaker 1: it's not really what it looks like to play golf
Speaker 1: on and how it plays and the links fairways generally,
Speaker 1: and the old course is probably the best version of it.
Speaker 1: It's the best to play golf on. It just sounds
Speaker 1: the best, it feels the best. It drains, it never
Speaker 1: gets wet. If it's brown or green, it doesn't matter.
Speaker 1: It's just great fun to play golf on. It's well
Speaker 1: and when guys like you hit a really good shot
Speaker 1: at the old course with an iron off the fairway,
Speaker 1: I love. It's like a little puff of smoke. It's
Speaker 1: like just a little like little explosives, not a divot even,
Speaker 1: and it's like the divot sort of dissolves into the air.
Speaker 1: It is. There's something that's so pleasing about that. And
Speaker 1: then and then to that point, you guys are just
Speaker 1: making all those different grasses. Well, of course it's wind.
Speaker 1: Wind is the element and not you know, the the
Speaker 1: American Midwest is not blessed with wind in the you know,
Speaker 1: in July and August for the most part. But the
Speaker 1: wind circulating all these different grasses and then the sea
Speaker 1: air moderating the temperatures. You do have perfect conditions. And
Speaker 1: you can't create those conditions throughout the world, but to
Speaker 1: the degree that you can borrow the philosophy of it
Speaker 1: and the idea of in the mood of it especially uh,
Speaker 1: it's neat and it would be better if more places
Speaker 1: did it. And it does show up in weird places,
Speaker 1: and of course one of them is specific growth. You know,
Speaker 1: those those those those oceanside holes at Pacific Growth. They
Speaker 1: are right out of the same Angews playbook. The turf,
Speaker 1: the feel of it, the scruffiness of it, everything about it.
Speaker 1: And it's public ready for another old time different seven minutes.
Speaker 1: Well yeah, I mean he lived to be eighty six
Speaker 1: years old. He outlived his wife and five children. He
Speaker 1: woke up every morning, crossed that eighteenth Green and First
Speaker 1: Fairway and jumped in that ocean every morning. That's the
Speaker 1: way he started his day. It's like cryout therapy. And
Speaker 1: now Colt Needler and I are actually in Ireland where
Speaker 1: we've been spending the last few mornings going to the
Speaker 1: forty foot and jumping into the North Sea in the
Speaker 1: morning at like whatever temperature it is, and bobbing around
Speaker 1: with a bunch of irishmen, feeling like we're old Tom
Speaker 1: Morris as we are about to embark on the Saint
Speaker 1: Andrew's at the week in Saint Andrews, and I feel
Speaker 1: like we should be starting our day every day, you know,
Speaker 1: walking out there and jumping in. At some point we
Speaker 1: should do it as a group, Okay, Matt can I
Speaker 1: s one other thing about Saint Andrews. Some of the
Speaker 1: best coffee I've ever had in my life is in
Speaker 1: Saint Andrews. I mean, there's really wonderfully rich. Everything sort
Speaker 1: of a little richer there. I think, like I feel
Speaker 1: more aware of things that I'm there. But but I'm
Speaker 1: think I took a photograph of this cup of coffee
Speaker 1: my last time there. I was like, man, if I
Speaker 1: could hear a cup of coffee this, this good aguar
Speaker 1: would be so happy. Where do you where, Jeff? Where Jeff?
Speaker 1: Where have you stayed there when you've played? Where have
Speaker 1: I stayed? A few places we've the Old Course hotels
Speaker 1: are pretty nice. Place to play, stays to play, place
Speaker 1: to stay when you played the tournament. You just walk
Speaker 1: up eighteen. You can walk to work, you know, which
Speaker 1: is pretty nice. You can actually just walk straight across
Speaker 1: seventeen and two because we warm up on the Eden
Speaker 1: and the new course right and we often use the
Speaker 1: Sanders Links Trope Guard Clubhouse for the for the set
Speaker 1: up rather than the RNA one because we're not allowed
Speaker 1: in there because we're professional golfers aren't really welcome in
Speaker 1: the RNA. UM. I think it's better now. Um So
Speaker 1: the Old Course hotels great, um but I've we've rented out,
Speaker 1: I've done a B and B. We rented the house
Speaker 1: a little bit out of town. So the Old Course Hotel,
Speaker 1: or if you can get in one of those rooms
Speaker 1: up the eighteenth Fairway on the right hand side, they're
Speaker 1: Old Tom's Shop, one of those one the Russacks or something,
Speaker 1: one of those sort of places. They're pretty fantastic. They
Speaker 1: get booked out years in advance. But I like the
Speaker 1: Old Course Hotel. There's just something about it. You've got
Speaker 1: the jigger in right there, which is fantastic. As I said,
Speaker 1: the top floor whiskey bars fantastic. At the restaurant, we
Speaker 1: can walk to work, which is very rare in a
Speaker 1: major we're normally in a traffic jam. Yeah, so that
Speaker 1: would be my pick. If you're going to go to
Speaker 1: town and you can, if it's in your budget, I'd
Speaker 1: stay at the Old Course Hotel. I would see for
Speaker 1: the people listening at home. There are bucket list experiences
Speaker 1: in golf, and being in Saint Andrew's for and Open
Speaker 1: as a spectator would have to be at the top
Speaker 1: of the list. It's even more fun than the Masters
Speaker 1: and some of these other events. The Old Course is
Speaker 1: actually not a great spectating experience because a lot of
Speaker 1: the they have all these double fairways. You can't get
Speaker 1: in the middle, and so you're sometimes far away from
Speaker 1: the action, and some of the landscapes a little flat
Speaker 1: and you don't have the views. But despite that, they
Speaker 1: have all these great grand stands, which gets you up high.
Speaker 1: But more than anything, it's just the town is on
Speaker 1: fire and everyone is talking about golf, and everyone is
Speaker 1: part of the tournament in some way, and listening to
Speaker 1: these guys talk about it just reminds me how special
Speaker 1: that week is. And if you have if you have
Speaker 1: the chance, you absolutely have to do it as a
Speaker 1: golf fan. And then of course you stay on and
Speaker 1: you keep playing your way through Scotland like that. That
Speaker 1: was the trip of a lifetime. But you know, a
Speaker 1: lot of these opens, they there's there's a little town
Speaker 1: nearby that becomes kind of central to the experience, but
Speaker 1: there's nothing like Saint Andrew's, which is gothic and beautiful
Speaker 1: and charming, and you don't even need a car. You
Speaker 1: can walk to everything. So just I'm still in California,
Speaker 1: I'm leaving tomorrow morning to get over there, and I'm like,
Speaker 1: all of a sudden, so incredibly excited to get to
Speaker 1: Saint Andrew's just thinking about it and talking about it.
Speaker 1: It's such a unique and special place. I'm giddy. I'm
Speaker 1: totally and completely giddy about what what's about to transpire
Speaker 1: visually and sort of socially that you know, like the town.
Speaker 1: I can't wait to immerse myself in what's about to transpire.
Speaker 1: I think golf, you know, especially professional golf, has had
Speaker 1: these ebbs and flows of zaniness over the last couple
Speaker 1: of weeks and months, and I just think this is
Speaker 1: going to be such It's going to be a nice
Speaker 1: little opportunity to not unlike what the US Open was,
Speaker 1: to get back to what really matters and which is
Speaker 1: you know, in theory major championships, especially a major championship,
Speaker 1: the one hundred and fiftieth playing of the Open Championship
Speaker 1: at the old course, Tiger Woods. Will be there. Phil
Speaker 1: Mickelson will be there. This band of youngsters and they'll
Speaker 1: all be there. This is you know, word at at
Speaker 1: jp McManus program that was whipping around, you know in
Speaker 1: a way that seems to make it, you know, uh
Speaker 1: makes sense, but that this will be Tiger's last Open.
Speaker 1: He's brought a big group of people over. Um, he's
Speaker 1: not doing well physically, um spiritually. This you know, a
Speaker 1: couple of sources I talked to, don't be surprised if
Speaker 1: he's going an early morning Thursday and a late afternoon Friday,
Speaker 1: and that there could be some sort of not necessarily
Speaker 1: swilken Bridge wave, but a a a tip of the
Speaker 1: cap and a you know, I'm done with I'm done
Speaker 1: with opens um and uh. And because this would be
Speaker 1: the place where he would do that, that's amazing. Let's
Speaker 1: say this. We're gonna be doing more fire drills, and
Speaker 1: we'll do one on one Wednesday when we're all over there,
Speaker 1: and we'll get into the players and the subplots, and
Speaker 1: we can talk about Greg Norman getting disinvited from the
Speaker 1: the honorary festivities and some of the larger storylines. But
Speaker 1: let's table that, because this has been such a fun,
Speaker 1: romantic conversation about a place that's clearly special to all
Speaker 1: of us, that let's let's end on that. Notever, Mike,
Speaker 1: Michael and Jeff in any party thoughts just about about
Speaker 1: Saint Andrew's and the old course and the weekend. M Well, yeah,
Speaker 1: it's just a great tournament, and it's the it's the oldest,
Speaker 1: it's the original golf tournament at the original golf course.
Speaker 1: It doesn't get any better than that, I mean special.
Speaker 1: Hopefully the weather's grit has been a little bit annoying
Speaker 1: the last I think ten and fifteen there were weather
Speaker 1: delays and for the wind and um sort of takes
Speaker 1: a bit of the show and offer. Hopefully the weather
Speaker 1: is sensible and the good players play well and we
Speaker 1: get a compelling, interesting tournament. It's some great to watch
Speaker 1: great players play well around the old course. It's probably
Speaker 1: detractive golf that you'll say if it gets played properly
Speaker 1: in sensible conditions. So just look forward to watching it,
Speaker 1: which I was there. I'm very happy for all the
Speaker 1: people who are going to have the experience that we've
Speaker 1: all had, but especially happy for the people who watched this.
Speaker 1: Oh Ben, I can't believe I'm getting emotional things, but
Speaker 1: watching this open at Saint Andrew's for the first time,
Speaker 1: whether there in person, on TV, and to have the
Speaker 1: chance to fall in love with this game that shaped
Speaker 1: my life, I gotta hang up. This is crazy. I
Speaker 1: cannot practically crying, but that's how I feel about it.
Speaker 1: That's it. This is a Fire Drill Podcast. We're ending
Speaker 1: it with that thought, thank you all for listening. We'll
Speaker 1: be doing him every day from Saint Andrew's. Jeff will
Speaker 1: be a part of it as much as he can.
Speaker 1: He'll be actually competing at the Reno Tahoe Open, which
Speaker 1: is awesome, so if we can shang Hi Jeff a
Speaker 1: couple of times, but Michael and Matt and I will
Speaker 1: be over there and we'll try and open a few
Speaker 1: special guests as well. So thanks for listening. As Michael
Speaker 1: heads to the airport, you know, tears in his eyes
Speaker 1: and tells you how much this means that this guy's
Speaker 1: have been doing this for a long time. But there's
Speaker 1: just something there's something special and romantic about about the
Speaker 1: Open Championship. So the z Island Ship NUK from Michael Bamberger,
Speaker 1: Matt Chenella, Jeff Ogilvie. Thank you for listening and we'll
Speaker 1: be back. We're back at it soon. Put another log
Speaker 1: on the fire nobody hears. Give the time