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Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff You Should Know, a production of iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 2: Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh and there's

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Speaker 2: shuck and it's just us today. But that's okay because

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Speaker 2: this is stuff you should know. The Is this a

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Speaker 2: good idea?

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Speaker 1: Oh, I think it's a good idea. You know, we're

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Speaker 1: just going to kind of report what happened over the

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Speaker 1: last you know, sixty years or so in the United States.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, there's been this increasing trend that Yeah, I guess

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Speaker 2: it's about how long it's been going on where the

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Speaker 2: police departments across the US have become increasingly militarized. And

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Speaker 2: to be specific, it's not just a question of wearing

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Speaker 2: technical helmets and vests, carrying assault rifles sometimes driving through

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Speaker 2: through cities and m wraps and tanks. It's also a

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Speaker 2: change in attitude that it's created where people are no

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Speaker 2: longer citizens who are presumed innocent until proven guilty. They

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Speaker 2: are the enemy and the police at that moment are

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Speaker 2: an occupying force coming in full force to that person's house,

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Speaker 2: or even when they're not doing that, just looking intimidating

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Speaker 2: to basically everyone who sees them. That's essentially what people

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Speaker 2: who talk about this stuff consider the full scope of

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Speaker 2: the militarization of the police.

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Speaker 1: Yeah for sure. And like I said, this has been

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Speaker 1: happening since about the nineteen sixties. If you go back

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Speaker 1: in time to like the eighteen hundreds, when cops first

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Speaker 1: started being a thing in the United States, they were

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Speaker 1: initially just hired as politicians. It was called a patronage system,

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Speaker 1: so they were kind of appointed. It wasn't until the

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Speaker 1: nineteenth century that they started get a little more like, hey,

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Speaker 1: let's squash that patronage. Let's hire police instead of appointing them,

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Speaker 1: so they basically don't work for politicians. And that's when

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Speaker 1: union started being founded. That's when formal training programs started.

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Speaker 1: I know a lot of this stuff we've covered in

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Speaker 1: other episodes, but I know, if we talked about Robert

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Speaker 1: Peel and the London Metropolitan Police is sort of a

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Speaker 1: big north star that when America started their like real

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Speaker 1: police force, they often looked to London and how he

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Speaker 1: did it.

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Speaker 2: Yeah for sure. And part of that was what's called

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Speaker 2: the professionalism movement of police. Like you said, no longer

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Speaker 2: making them political appointees in the pocket of some politician

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Speaker 2: who wants them to go rough up as opponent and

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Speaker 2: part of professionalism. One of the central tenets is that

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Speaker 2: essentially the police is its own silo within society. It's

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Speaker 2: not influenced by politics and all that stuff, which is

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Speaker 2: good in that sense, but in the other sense, the

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Speaker 2: police then kind of become their own well police force,

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Speaker 2: and they make a lot of decisions about society, and

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Speaker 2: as there's less I guess control or input or influence

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Speaker 2: from society, things can start to get out of hand.

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Speaker 2: On the other hand, professionalism also meant like, you know,

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Speaker 2: people who are trained as police now know what they're doing.

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Speaker 2: They're actually getting professional training.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean it was in some ways it was

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Speaker 1: a progressive era at first when the professionalism movement started,

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Speaker 1: but even early on there was a guy in California

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Speaker 1: and Berkeley, of all places, the chief of police there

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Speaker 1: named August August Volmar, who you know, even way back then,

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Speaker 1: was like, hey, I think you know, it should be

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Speaker 1: more like the military. He had a quote where he said,

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Speaker 1: after all, we're conducting a war, a war against the

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Speaker 1: enemies of society. So even back then there was some

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Speaker 1: ideological seeds being planted. Other people have defended Volmer in

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Speaker 1: this movement and saying, hey, you know, he actually is

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Speaker 1: one of the people who first started formal training. He's

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Speaker 1: the first person to encourage the escalation and hire the

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Speaker 1: first black and women police officer. So he also had,

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Speaker 1: you know, people kind of sticking up for his movement

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Speaker 1: as well.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, he's become kind of the poster child for who

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Speaker 2: started all this, and other people are like, that's just

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Speaker 2: not really fair. So either way, he definitely was a

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Speaker 2: huge proponent of police reform and kind of established a

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Speaker 2: lot of the ways that police thought. And like you said,

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Speaker 2: part of it was this idea that there should be

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Speaker 2: some degree of militarization of the police. And then after

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Speaker 2: August Volmer, nothing happened for about sixty years, and then

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Speaker 2: in nineteen sixty five things nothing happened, nothing, The police

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Speaker 2: just went along doing their thing and everybody was happy

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Speaker 2: with what they were doing. Yeah, no, I know what,

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Speaker 2: in the sixties everything turned and you can really trace

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Speaker 2: the militarization of the police back to a couple of

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Speaker 2: years in the sixties. There are other things that happened

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Speaker 2: along the way. I think in the eighties there was

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Speaker 2: a shootout in Miami nineteen eighty six that ended up

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Speaker 2: leading to full throated support for police getting access to

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Speaker 2: bulletproof vests, which I really don't think is problematic. Another one,

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Speaker 2: we've done an entire podcast on the North Hollywood shootout

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Speaker 2: in nineteen ninety seven. Yeah, that led access to police

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Speaker 2: being equipped with long guns like assault rifles and stuff

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Speaker 2: like that after that. And in both those cases, the

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Speaker 2: police were unprepared. They were shown to be unprepared, So

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Speaker 2: there were steps taken to prepare them that you can

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Speaker 2: kind of say are military in nature, I guess, But

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Speaker 2: that's nothing compared to the effect that the riots of

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Speaker 2: the nineteen sixties had on the militarization of the police.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure, And we covered some of these in

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Speaker 1: our episode on riots. But in nineteen sixty five, the

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Speaker 1: Watts riots occurred. Then a couple of years later, in

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Speaker 1: nineteen sixty seven, there were riots in Newark and Detroit,

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Speaker 1: and this stuff was all over the news. It was,

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Speaker 1: you know, being widely reported. Americans were getting pretty worried

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Speaker 1: about just crime in general, sort of in the nineteen sixties,

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Speaker 1: you know, thinking things were kind of out of control.

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Speaker 1: There was a poll in nineteen sixty nine in Newsweek

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Speaker 1: that found that sixty six percent of white Americans thought

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Speaker 1: police should be given more power, and the Watts riots

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Speaker 1: directly led to the creation of swat units. You know,

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Speaker 1: we talked about this in our Swat episode all the

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Speaker 1: way back in twenty ten.

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Speaker 2: Wow.

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Speaker 1: But there was a guy named Darryl Gates, who I'm

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Speaker 1: pretty sure isn't that the same guy who was chief

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Speaker 1: during the Rodney King riots? Okay, well, back then in

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Speaker 1: sixty five, he was an laped inspector and he basically

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Speaker 1: said what you said was like they were just completely

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Speaker 1: unprepared for how to handle something like that at that scale.

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Speaker 1: So he went directly to the military and said, Hey,

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Speaker 1: I want to create a special unit that's more like

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Speaker 1: you guys that can handle something like this, And out

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Speaker 1: of that came America's first SWAT team in Los Angeles.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and swat teams are specifically considered a paramilitary police

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Speaker 2: units or PPUs, like they are a sterling example of

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Speaker 2: militarization of the police, right, And so you can thank

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Speaker 2: Darryl Gates for creating this, like you said, although I

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Speaker 2: suspect along the way somebody would have come up with

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Speaker 2: something like this since they already existed in the military, right,

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Speaker 2: So that was one big key point in the militarization

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Speaker 2: of police. Another big one came from Lyndon Johnson. In

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Speaker 2: nineteen sixty five, under his guidance, I guess, the United

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Speaker 2: States passed the Law Enforcement Assistance Act, and Johnson had

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Speaker 2: declared a war on crime, and part of it allowed

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Speaker 2: the federal government to give military weapons to local police departments.

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Speaker 2: So that was the first time this is actually happening

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Speaker 2: all the way back in sixty five. And again these riots.

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Speaker 2: There was one hundred and sixty riots in one summer

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Speaker 2: nineteen sixty seven alone, So people were nervous, and like

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Speaker 2: you said, a lot of people were in support of

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Speaker 2: the police having things like access to military weapons. Then

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Speaker 2: after that, a year later, there was the Omnibus Crime

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Speaker 2: Control and Safe Streets Act, and that created this permanent

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Speaker 2: administration that oversaw transferring military weapons to local police departments.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that was it was called the Law Enforcement Assistance Administration.

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Speaker 1: And because of that, cops were like, all right, I

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Speaker 1: mean we can start, you know, police departments could start

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Speaker 1: stockpiling these you know, military grade weapons, and that's really

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Speaker 1: when it kicked off. People did, and this is a

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Speaker 1: pretty important part of this episode, but not everyone was

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Speaker 1: just saying, yeah, this is awesome. Some people stood back

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Speaker 1: and said, wait a minute, why don't we like kind

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Speaker 1: of look at like why these riots are happening. Of course,

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Speaker 1: we need to be able to deal with this stuff,

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Speaker 1: but if we get to the root of the problem

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Speaker 1: and maybe try and stop them before they happened, that

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Speaker 1: might be a good approach. And so in nineteen sixty seven,

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Speaker 1: Johnson formed a commission. It ended up resulting in what's

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Speaker 1: called the Kerner Commission Report. It was officially called the

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Speaker 1: National Advisory Commission on Civil Disorders, but it was named

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Speaker 1: after its chairman, Auto Kerner, and he said, I want

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Speaker 1: to find out three things. What happened, why it happened,

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Speaker 1: and how can we keep it from happening again. They

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Speaker 1: surveyed different riots and uprisings in twenty three cities and

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Speaker 1: assigned people and investigators to go out and you know,

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Speaker 1: kind of get to the bottom of it. And the

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Speaker 1: conclusions of the report didn't lead to any substantive change.

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Speaker 1: It was basically ignored.

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Speaker 2: It was and that's I mean, it was like the

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Speaker 2: most controversial document ever produced by the US government that

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Speaker 2: basically said there's institutional racism in the US and that

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Speaker 2: is directly responsible for riots in low income, majority black areas, right,

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Speaker 2: But part of it was like, part of the problem

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Speaker 2: is heavy handed policing. And the current report went even further,

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Speaker 2: and they said the Commission condemns moves to equip police

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Speaker 2: departments with mass destructive weapons such as automatic rifles, machine guns,

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Speaker 2: and tanks. Weapons that are designed to destroy, not to control,

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Speaker 2: have no place in densely populated urban communities. So all

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Speaker 2: the way back in the late sixties, this government appointed

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Speaker 2: panel is like, we should not be militarizing the police.

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Speaker 2: That is the wrong direction. And like you said, it

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Speaker 2: was just totally ignored. And not only that, rather than

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Speaker 2: go in the direction of getting to the bottom of

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Speaker 2: the root causes of this stuff and trying to cure

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Speaker 2: social ills that way, probably forever, America went the other

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Speaker 2: way and said, no, let's overwhelm these neighborhoods with full

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Speaker 2: military style force, equipping the police with military weapons and armor,

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Speaker 2: and we'll keep Bryant suppressed that way, And it worked,

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Speaker 2: but at a really huge cost, which is essentially an

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Speaker 2: erosion of trust in the police, not just in those

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Speaker 2: communities but across the country.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and I mean, if you're wondering, like, wait a minute,

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Speaker 1: Lindon Johnson did so much work for civil rights, this

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Speaker 1: doesn't quite add up. That was kind of one of

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Speaker 1: the reasons he didn't bury the report. I mean, you know,

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Speaker 1: it came out and it was published, even in a book,

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Speaker 1: so it got people talking at least, but he never

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Speaker 1: spoke publicly about it. And one of the reasons why

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Speaker 1: was because of his good track record with civil rights.

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Speaker 1: He was like, this report, he felt like it was

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Speaker 1: an indictment on his presidency, and he was like, I

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Speaker 1: don't like the way it makes me look. And so

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Speaker 1: not only did he never even address it, but apparently

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Speaker 1: when you have commissions like this, there are these customary

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Speaker 1: letters thanking the commissioners for their service that they draw

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Speaker 1: up that the presidents sign. I think they drew up

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Speaker 1: those letters, but he wouldn't even sign those.

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Speaker 2: No, they sent him out without his signature because he's

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Speaker 2: being a big fat baby about the whole thing. That's

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Speaker 2: essentially what happened. Yeah, sure, but yeah, because he ignored

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Speaker 2: it publicly, and because they refused to implement any of

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Speaker 2: the stuff, it went well they it wasn't implemented, but

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Speaker 2: it was also given a lot of media attention, and

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Speaker 2: it kind of laid the groundwork for discussions about race

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Speaker 2: and the existence of institutional racism in America from that

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Speaker 2: point on. So, even though Johnson ignored it or his

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Speaker 2: administration didn't implement anything that it did get some attention.

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Speaker 2: That book you mentioned became a best seller. There's a

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Speaker 2: lot of media attention, and it really laid the groundwork

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Speaker 2: for discussions about racism in America and institutional racism that

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Speaker 2: would come.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure. So should we take a break and

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Speaker 1: then talk about Nixon? Yeah?

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Speaker 2: I think so, because that's a really big turning point

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Speaker 2: as well.

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Speaker 1: All Right, we're gonna take a break and we're gonna

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Speaker 1: talk about Richard nick right after this. All right, we

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Speaker 1: promised talk of Richard Nixon and his war on drugs,

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Speaker 1: and I don't know why it didn't occur to me

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Speaker 1: until ten minutes ago, But war on crime, war on drugs,

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Speaker 1: if we're talking about the militarization of the police, maybe

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Speaker 1: they should stop using words like war about everything.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a really good point. As a matter of fact,

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Speaker 2: some people basically lay the blame on the militarization of

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Speaker 2: America on Congress. Even Ran Paul Well, I don't necessarily

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Speaker 2: agree with traditionally. He wrote in twenty fourteen and an

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Speaker 2: op ed in Time that like, it's basically all Congress's

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Speaker 2: fault for police militarization happening in the US because of

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Speaker 2: all of these policies that were passed.

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Speaker 1: Over the years. Yeah, So Richard Nixon comes along in

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Speaker 1: nineteen seventy one, declared this war on drugs. He very

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Speaker 1: famously called drug abuse public Enemy number one. And you know,

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Speaker 1: there has always been drug problems in the United States,

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Speaker 1: and along with that ghost crime. I don't think anyone

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Speaker 1: disputes that drug deaths were increasing at a pretty big

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Speaker 1: rate in the seventies, and so he decides to do

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Speaker 1: something about it. If you talk to people on the inside,

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Speaker 1: they'll say it actually has to do with other things.

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Speaker 1: One of his adviser's name was John Airlickman, who we

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Speaker 1: talked about before, But he said what the War on

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Speaker 1: drugs really was, if you knew Nixon, it was a

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Speaker 1: ploy to attack his enemies, which was the anti war left,

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Speaker 1: the progressive left, and black Americans. He has a quote

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Speaker 1: he said, we knew we couldn't make it illegal to

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Speaker 1: be either against the war or black, but by getting

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Speaker 1: the public to associate the hippies with marijuana and blacks

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Speaker 1: with heroin, and then criminalizing both heavily. We could disrupt

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Speaker 1: those communities.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and one of the hallmarks of Nixon's War on

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Speaker 2: drugs was really aggressive policing police tactics. One of the

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Speaker 2: things that they set up was the Office of Drug

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Speaker 2: Abuse Law Enforcement ODALE, which was the predecessor to the DEA.

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Speaker 2: And this really aggressive approach moved the focus of fighting

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Speaker 2: drug trafficking by targeting huge drug traffickers, which was traditionally

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Speaker 2: how law enforcement had done it to basically busting like

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Speaker 2: not even just low level dealers, but drug users in

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Speaker 2: their homes. And one of the big things that they

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Speaker 2: came up with to facilitate those raids on their homes,

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Speaker 2: military style raids on homes was the no knock warrant,

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Speaker 2: another big concept in the militarization of police.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and you know how it traditionally worked was you

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Speaker 1: get a warrant and you go and you knock on

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Speaker 1: someone's door and you see if they answered the door,

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Speaker 1: and then when they answered the door, you know, start

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Speaker 1: the process from there. A no knock warrant is just

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Speaker 1: what it sounds like we've seen them on the news

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Speaker 1: when they just go barging in a house. Basically previous

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Speaker 1: to this, the Drug Enforcement Agency, or the predecessor rather,

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Speaker 1: had conducted five no knock searches in the five years

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Speaker 1: leading up to the formation of ODALE, and in its

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Speaker 1: first six months they had over one hundred no knock grades,

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Speaker 1: And over the course of about thirteen months from April

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Speaker 1: seventy two to May seventy three, they conducted almost fifteen

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Speaker 1: hundred no knock grades.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and one of the huge problems that people have

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Speaker 2: with no knock raids is that it's just rude. It

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Speaker 2: is very rude. It results in property destruction. If they

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Speaker 2: or I should say, when they kick in your front door,

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Speaker 2: you're on the hook to replace your front door, even

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Speaker 2: if your house was mistakenly raided. They use flashban grenades

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Speaker 2: that can injure people, and I mean just police using

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Speaker 2: grenades I think should kind of stand out to you.

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Speaker 2: They will engage in gunfire with assault rifles. It can

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Speaker 2: be a really bad jam. But even like on a

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Speaker 2: more fundamental level than when those things go really wrong

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Speaker 2: or even when they go right, and the destruction that

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Speaker 2: can result is the philosophical change that they represent something

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Speaker 2: we talked about earlier, where if you go up to

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Speaker 2: someone's house and you say you have a warrant, you

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Speaker 2: say you're the police, you knock on their door, that

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Speaker 2: you're treating that person like a citizen who is suspected

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Speaker 2: of something but hasn't been proven guilty. If you throw

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Speaker 2: a flash bang grenade through somebody's window and kicking their

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Speaker 2: front door and come in like a seal team, yeah,

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Speaker 2: you're basically saying you're guilty. We're here to remove you

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Speaker 2: and take you to jail. And you basically have very

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Speaker 2: little rights if any.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and any sudden movement, and I would imagine there's

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Speaker 1: probably nothing but sudden movements. When someone does that, yeah,

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Speaker 1: you're probably shot. And as an animal lover, that dog

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Speaker 1: of yours that runs up and barks at someone that

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Speaker 1: barges in the house is immediately shot on the spot.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. So there's a lot of problems with these no

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Speaker 2: knock warrants. They've been a target of police reform for years,

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Speaker 2: but essentially there's nothing that's been done about them.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure. So while this is going on, all

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Speaker 1: this increase of militaristic approach Darryl Gates is in LA.

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Speaker 1: He's got his swat team up and running in the

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Speaker 1: seventies and there were some really high profile shootouts. We've

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Speaker 1: talked about. It's funny how many of these things have

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Speaker 1: come up over the years. But one famous shootout with

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Speaker 1: the Black Panthers, another one with the Symbionese Liberation Army

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Speaker 1: the SLA that Patty Hurst was involved in. We covered

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Speaker 1: that one, but they were very high profile on the

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Speaker 1: news kind of things, and the whole concept of swat

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Speaker 1: teams was all of a sudden, like really in the

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Speaker 1: public eye and in cities all over the country, you know,

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Speaker 1: major cities for sure, and even smaller towns they were like, hey,

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Speaker 1: we won a swat team too, leading to the point

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Speaker 1: where even though there are no there are no official stats.

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Speaker 1: There was a criminologist named Peter Kroska who did some

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Speaker 1: estimates that they're between fifty thousand and eighty thousand swat

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Speaker 1: raids a year in the United States, right, So that's

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Speaker 1: the point where we're at now.

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Speaker 2: It's it's also well that and I think he also

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Speaker 2: determined that in nineteen eighty there were something like three thousand,

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Speaker 2: so that's quite a quite an uptick over the years. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: I think one of the other overlooked influences on normalizing

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Speaker 2: SWAT teams was the TV show Swat from the mid seventies.

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Speaker 2: I think it just was on a season or two,

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Speaker 2: but it was really popular, so people were like, SWAT

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Speaker 2: teams are kind of awesome. Like you said, even small

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Speaker 2: towns were getting these right now. From what I could find,

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Speaker 2: the smallest town that has its own SWAT team, not

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Speaker 2: just access to a SWAT team, but they maintain their

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Speaker 2: own SWAT team is a town called Kerville, Texas, and

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Speaker 2: it is a population of twenty five thousand. So SWAT

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Speaker 2: team's definitely spread. And one reason why is not so

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Speaker 2: the police can be like, man, this is so great.

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Speaker 2: I love carrying out these raids and using flash bang grenades.

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Speaker 2: I'm quite sure that it is a sentiment among some cops,

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Speaker 2: but definitely not all. They are incentivized in every way,

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Speaker 2: shape or form to have SWAT teams and to use

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Speaker 2: them to carry out raids for basically anything. And the

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Speaker 2: reason why they're incentivized to do that is because, like

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Speaker 2: ram Paul said, the federal government has been incentivizing it

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Speaker 2: over the years with policy after policy starting with Johnson

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Speaker 2: and leading up till today.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and you know, you get a TV show like

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Speaker 1: SWAT coming out and promoting and encouraging and sort of

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Speaker 1: glorifying the use of SWAT teams. Yet Magnipi comes out

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Speaker 1: and not every city is saying, hey, we need super

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Speaker 1: hot guys in ferraris investigating things privately.

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Speaker 2: No, but ironically, SWAT teams started to wear short shorts

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Speaker 2: after magnum Pi came out during their raids. It was

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Speaker 2: a trend for a little while.

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Speaker 1: I sent you that picture of Tom Selleck at eighty

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Speaker 1: years old the other day, Yeah, and he said he

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Speaker 1: looks better than I done that.

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Speaker 2: Man.

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Speaker 1: He's put on a little weight, But I gotta say, man,

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Speaker 1: Tom sellok still looks pretty dang good.

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Speaker 2: It does, especially for eighty. Sorry to be agist, but

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Speaker 2: it's true.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, handsome older man. One thing you mentioned a second

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Speaker 1: ago was the incentivization. Is that the word of cops

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Speaker 1: to carry out these no knock rades and stuff like that.

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Speaker 1: That really ramped up with President Ronald Reagan in the

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Speaker 1: nineteen eighties. Under his presidency, they started doing more or

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Speaker 1: more drug raids, a lot more frequent, a lot more intense,

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Speaker 1: for sure. And part of the reason is because in

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Speaker 1: nineteen eighty four he passed the Federal Crime Bill, which

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Speaker 1: expanded civil forfeiture laws relating to drug arrests. So basically, hey,

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Speaker 1: if you conduct a no knock grade and you go

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Speaker 1: in there and you get you a gym bag full

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Speaker 1: of money and cocaine, you get to keep that, keep

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Speaker 1: those spoils.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, before they had to turn it all over to

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Speaker 2: the Department of Justice. The Fed's got all that.

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Speaker 1: That's right, So it literally financially incentivized these no knock grades.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, because if you're a budget strapped police department and

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Speaker 2: all of a sudden you can make millions of dollars

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Speaker 2: a year for your police department, or keep drug dealers

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Speaker 2: cars and auction them off or whatever, that's a huge

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Speaker 2: financial incentive to carry out those raids and get as

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Speaker 2: much of that money as you possibly can. I don't

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Speaker 2: think that that's to say unfairly that that's the reason

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Speaker 2: why cops are organizing raids like that. Like, I think

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Speaker 2: that it's just like I was saying, or we both said,

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Speaker 2: a real incentive to carry out those raids rather than

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Speaker 2: you know, say non military policing.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure. That was eighty four was a federal

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Speaker 1: crime bill. Then a few years later in eighty seven,

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Speaker 1: Congress created a new office basically that almost like a

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Speaker 1: one stop shop if you want to militarize your local

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Speaker 1: police department. They helped with a transfer of military equipment.

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Speaker 1: They literally set up a hotline and a cat and

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Speaker 1: printed a catalog.

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Speaker 2: Yeah like this year's the Facebook for police chiefs.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that they would send out to police chiefs and

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Speaker 1: all of a sudden, it just sort of streamlined the

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Speaker 1: whole process and made it much easier.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, which is that's pretty easy as it is, but

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Speaker 2: the whole thing really kind of got going under Bill Clinton.

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Speaker 2: He kind of tossed a bone to progressives by coming

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Speaker 2: up with the Community Oriented Policing Services Act. I guess

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Speaker 2: which is is that spell cops? Yes, it does good

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Speaker 2: call And it's the opposite of professionalization, where they're like, no,

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Speaker 2: we need more input from the community and society in

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Speaker 2: how police police and all that. That's one thing, so

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Speaker 2: it's like a conceptually it makes sense in that respect,

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Speaker 2: but in practice it really just gave more funding to

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Speaker 2: police departments to hire more cops. The really big part, though,

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Speaker 2: came in nineteen ninety seven as part of the National

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Speaker 2: Defense Authorization Act that created what's known as the ten

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Speaker 2: thirty three program, which is it permanently authorized the Department

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Speaker 2: of Defense to funnel military grade weapons and supplies to

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Speaker 2: police departments in the US. It said, this is official.

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Speaker 2: These are no longer executive orders. This is an act

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Speaker 2: of Congress saying you guys can do this, and let's

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Speaker 2: make it happen.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. And since that, which was in nineteen ninety seven, again,

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Speaker 1: they have sold I guess, I mean they're selling this stuff, right, No,

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Speaker 1: I well, they just giving it.

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Speaker 2: I believe that they're essentially giving it to them. If yes,

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Speaker 2: and if they're selling it, then police departments can apply

435
00:25:13,760 --> 00:25:16,959
Speaker 2: four grants from the federal government to buy the stuff

436
00:25:16,960 --> 00:25:18,160
Speaker 2: from the federal government.

437
00:25:18,760 --> 00:25:22,200
Speaker 1: They're like, man, we're all the shame team here a

438
00:25:22,400 --> 00:25:24,639
Speaker 1: lou that was a very bad wiggam. I used to

439
00:25:24,680 --> 00:25:27,919
Speaker 1: do that better. But since then, there has been more

440
00:25:27,960 --> 00:25:31,920
Speaker 1: than seven point six billion dollars worth of military equipment

441
00:25:33,480 --> 00:25:36,320
Speaker 1: given out to police departments across the US.

442
00:25:36,160 --> 00:25:40,040
Speaker 2: In less than thirty years. Yeah, that's a lot. The

443
00:25:40,560 --> 00:25:44,240
Speaker 2: two thousands really kind of changed things as well. I

444
00:25:44,320 --> 00:25:47,920
Speaker 2: guess every decade really did, but not. The nine to

445
00:25:47,960 --> 00:25:53,920
Speaker 2: eleven attack really kind of refocused America's thoughts on public safety,

446
00:25:54,000 --> 00:25:56,720
Speaker 2: law enforcement, that kind of thing. And one of the

447
00:25:56,800 --> 00:25:59,600
Speaker 2: upshots of it was the creation of the Department of

448
00:25:59,600 --> 00:26:03,520
Speaker 2: Homeland Security, which created a program in two thousand and

449
00:26:03,520 --> 00:26:09,360
Speaker 2: three that that essentially gave grants to police departments for

450
00:26:09,880 --> 00:26:13,960
Speaker 2: training against terrorism and equipping them with weapons to fight terrorism.

451
00:26:14,280 --> 00:26:17,880
Speaker 2: And so terrorism also gave local police departments a new

452
00:26:18,080 --> 00:26:22,480
Speaker 2: justification and rationalization for becoming militarized. It's not only was

453
00:26:22,480 --> 00:26:25,560
Speaker 2: a drug users anymore. Now we had potential terrorists coming

454
00:26:25,600 --> 00:26:28,360
Speaker 2: to the US, and police departments needed to know how

455
00:26:28,400 --> 00:26:32,160
Speaker 2: to deal with a terrorist attack, which I mean kind

456
00:26:32,160 --> 00:26:35,080
Speaker 2: of it makes sense. It's tough to argue with. It's

457
00:26:35,200 --> 00:26:39,119
Speaker 2: just another kind of ripple in the pond of this

458
00:26:39,200 --> 00:26:40,000
Speaker 2: whole thing, though.

459
00:26:40,920 --> 00:26:43,600
Speaker 1: Well yeah, but what it did was, you know, you've

460
00:26:43,600 --> 00:26:46,760
Speaker 1: got these SWAT teams sitting around in a maybe smaller town,

461
00:26:47,280 --> 00:26:49,200
Speaker 1: and if they don't have any terrorists to go fight,

462
00:26:49,880 --> 00:26:52,840
Speaker 1: they don't want that tank to get rusty, right, So

463
00:26:53,200 --> 00:26:55,600
Speaker 1: in the two thousands we saw SWAT raids. It wasn't

464
00:26:55,600 --> 00:26:57,840
Speaker 1: just drugs anymore, like you said they were. There have

465
00:26:57,880 --> 00:27:01,199
Speaker 1: been swat raids on bar shops because they didn't have

466
00:27:01,200 --> 00:27:05,240
Speaker 1: a license. Yeah, there have been swat raids against teenage drinking,

467
00:27:06,240 --> 00:27:08,760
Speaker 1: small time gamblers like you know, the back room poker game,

468
00:27:08,840 --> 00:27:09,520
Speaker 1: stuff like that.

469
00:27:09,920 --> 00:27:10,000
Speaker 2: It.

470
00:27:10,320 --> 00:27:13,080
Speaker 1: You know, once they had that system in place, they're like, well,

471
00:27:13,080 --> 00:27:15,000
Speaker 1: we got to use this stuff for something.

472
00:27:14,920 --> 00:27:17,040
Speaker 2: Right, So just having it makes you want to use it.

473
00:27:17,119 --> 00:27:20,800
Speaker 2: You're financially incentivized. You can get it for free, all

474
00:27:20,840 --> 00:27:22,919
Speaker 2: of this stuff. And so if you add all that

475
00:27:22,960 --> 00:27:26,800
Speaker 2: stuff up, you have every incentive to not only have

476
00:27:26,840 --> 00:27:30,479
Speaker 2: a swat team, but to use them fairly often. And

477
00:27:30,520 --> 00:27:34,479
Speaker 2: then also on top of that, they're further incentive advised

478
00:27:34,520 --> 00:27:37,280
Speaker 2: to use no knock warrants because the Supreme Court ruled

479
00:27:37,320 --> 00:27:40,000
Speaker 2: in two thousand and six in a case called Hudson v.

480
00:27:40,200 --> 00:27:44,439
Speaker 2: Michigan that even if you didn't obtain a no knock warrant,

481
00:27:44,520 --> 00:27:46,320
Speaker 2: which is a warrant that says you don't even have

482
00:27:46,400 --> 00:27:49,280
Speaker 2: to knock, right, if you didn't even bother to get that,

483
00:27:50,080 --> 00:27:53,200
Speaker 2: and you still performed a no knock search, came blazing

484
00:27:53,240 --> 00:27:56,040
Speaker 2: in with flash bang grenades and kicking down the door

485
00:27:56,040 --> 00:27:59,760
Speaker 2: and coming in through the window without a warrant, whatever

486
00:28:00,200 --> 00:28:03,600
Speaker 2: evidence that you discovered was still admissible in court.

487
00:28:04,880 --> 00:28:08,439
Speaker 1: That's right, So just one more incentive, and maybe we

488
00:28:08,440 --> 00:28:09,240
Speaker 1: should take a break.

489
00:28:09,560 --> 00:28:10,480
Speaker 2: I think we shouldn't.

490
00:28:10,800 --> 00:28:13,560
Speaker 1: For sure, I'm incentivised to take a break, right, very nice, man.

491
00:28:13,560 --> 00:28:15,640
Speaker 1: I'm gonna dab your forehead with the cool cloth, okay,

492
00:28:16,480 --> 00:28:18,560
Speaker 1: and we're gonna pick up in the twenty ten's right

493
00:28:18,560 --> 00:28:18,879
Speaker 1: after this.

494
00:28:56,480 --> 00:28:58,960
Speaker 2: So, Chuck, We've been basically going on the premise this

495
00:28:59,040 --> 00:29:03,800
Speaker 2: whole episode that the militarization of the police is problematic

496
00:29:03,840 --> 00:29:07,720
Speaker 2: in and of itself, right, And I wanted to understand

497
00:29:07,800 --> 00:29:11,800
Speaker 2: exactly why, Like why didn't America just say forget police forces,

498
00:29:11,800 --> 00:29:14,480
Speaker 2: We'll just use the military all the time. And so

499
00:29:14,560 --> 00:29:17,000
Speaker 2: I looked into it, and essentially the answer that I

500
00:29:17,040 --> 00:29:22,120
Speaker 2: could find from academia is that the military is well

501
00:29:22,120 --> 00:29:25,680
Speaker 2: aware that it could take over the country anytime it wants,

502
00:29:26,360 --> 00:29:30,520
Speaker 2: so it submits to civilian rule. And part of that

503
00:29:31,040 --> 00:29:33,840
Speaker 2: is based on the idea that civilian rule is better

504
00:29:33,840 --> 00:29:38,640
Speaker 2: for democracy than military rule, just because civilian politicians tend

505
00:29:38,680 --> 00:29:41,480
Speaker 2: to know how to run things better. There's more rights

506
00:29:41,520 --> 00:29:45,320
Speaker 2: afforded to people who are citizens not being ruled by

507
00:29:45,320 --> 00:29:50,600
Speaker 2: the military, And so by militarizing the police, and having

508
00:29:50,640 --> 00:29:55,160
Speaker 2: a police presence that looks like a military occupation. It

509
00:29:55,320 --> 00:30:01,120
Speaker 2: normalizes the concept of the military occupying its own country,

510
00:30:01,600 --> 00:30:05,840
Speaker 2: and so it erodes that custom of the separation of

511
00:30:05,880 --> 00:30:10,840
Speaker 2: the military from domestic affairs, that could conceivably lead to

512
00:30:11,040 --> 00:30:15,080
Speaker 2: the idea of the military actually starting to run the show.

513
00:30:15,280 --> 00:30:17,760
Speaker 2: It's supposed to be a separation, and the cops are

514
00:30:18,000 --> 00:30:22,240
Speaker 2: moving that overton window by becoming militarized. That's essentially the

515
00:30:22,280 --> 00:30:27,080
Speaker 2: basic argument that I've seen against police militarization. There's all

516
00:30:27,120 --> 00:30:29,640
Speaker 2: sorts of other symptoms and factors that it creates too

517
00:30:29,640 --> 00:30:31,320
Speaker 2: that people use to argue against it.

518
00:30:32,080 --> 00:30:34,280
Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure. And you know, we can't ignore the

519
00:30:34,320 --> 00:30:37,000
Speaker 1: fact because this is happening in real time this week

520
00:30:37,000 --> 00:30:42,080
Speaker 1: as we record the current administration, and this isn't militarizing

521
00:30:42,120 --> 00:30:45,240
Speaker 1: the police. This is using the actual military on US soil.

522
00:30:46,160 --> 00:30:50,520
Speaker 1: As you know. The latest example is the federal military

523
00:30:50,800 --> 00:30:54,520
Speaker 1: takeover of crime in Washington, d C. So that's kind

524
00:30:54,520 --> 00:30:56,080
Speaker 1: of just happened over the last couple of days as

525
00:30:56,120 --> 00:30:57,160
Speaker 1: we record this, right.

526
00:30:57,320 --> 00:31:01,080
Speaker 2: Yes, So one of the things that is leading the

527
00:31:01,160 --> 00:31:04,520
Speaker 2: huge pushback of militarization, aside from more and more people

528
00:31:04,560 --> 00:31:08,560
Speaker 2: being exposed to an unsettled by a police officer in

529
00:31:08,600 --> 00:31:13,160
Speaker 2: full tactical gear holding an assault rifle. Is the advent

530
00:31:13,200 --> 00:31:16,040
Speaker 2: of the smartphone, and people can actually record this stuff

531
00:31:16,040 --> 00:31:18,840
Speaker 2: and then broadcast it widely, and so it's kind of

532
00:31:18,920 --> 00:31:23,760
Speaker 2: captured the attention of the average person. I would say

533
00:31:23,440 --> 00:31:27,880
Speaker 2: to the concept that police militarization is in and of

534
00:31:27,920 --> 00:31:32,680
Speaker 2: itself a heavy handed police tactic, that is questionable.

535
00:31:33,640 --> 00:31:36,520
Speaker 1: Yeah for sure. And I just had another quick point.

536
00:31:36,800 --> 00:31:38,800
Speaker 1: I don't want to get too much grief for this,

537
00:31:38,920 --> 00:31:42,240
Speaker 1: but there's a pretty obvious elephant in the room here,

538
00:31:42,800 --> 00:31:45,400
Speaker 1: which is if you're if you think all this is great,

539
00:31:45,800 --> 00:31:47,920
Speaker 1: and you say, well, hey, they got those weapons, so

540
00:31:48,040 --> 00:31:51,160
Speaker 1: why can't the cops have those weapons? They have those

541
00:31:51,200 --> 00:31:58,080
Speaker 1: weapons because of policy as well, you know, explain well

542
00:31:58,280 --> 00:32:01,280
Speaker 1: citizens like saying, hey, you know, citizens have assault rifles,

543
00:32:01,280 --> 00:32:04,600
Speaker 1: like the cops should have assault rifles, and like the

544
00:32:04,640 --> 00:32:08,480
Speaker 1: citizens have the assault rifles because the US government said

545
00:32:08,480 --> 00:32:11,160
Speaker 1: it was okay to So yeah, you know, it's sort

546
00:32:11,160 --> 00:32:11,920
Speaker 1: of I don't know.

547
00:32:12,040 --> 00:32:14,240
Speaker 2: I had the same thought that you can trace you

548
00:32:14,280 --> 00:32:16,560
Speaker 2: can trace that argument back to okay, well that's actually

549
00:32:16,640 --> 00:32:18,280
Speaker 2: an argument in favor of gun control.

550
00:32:19,560 --> 00:32:20,400
Speaker 1: Yeah for sure.

551
00:32:20,480 --> 00:32:22,840
Speaker 2: I had the same thought, because yeah, that is a

552
00:32:22,880 --> 00:32:24,760
Speaker 2: huge argument. People be like, well, if you take the

553
00:32:24,800 --> 00:32:27,840
Speaker 2: cops assault rifles away, only outlaws will have assault rifles.

554
00:32:27,880 --> 00:32:30,800
Speaker 2: It's like, no, take the outlaws assault rifles away first,

555
00:32:31,120 --> 00:32:34,080
Speaker 2: then we can talk about the cops giving theirs up right.

556
00:32:34,040 --> 00:32:35,920
Speaker 1: They didn't used to have them, you know exactly.

557
00:32:36,360 --> 00:32:38,680
Speaker 2: Okay, yeah, so no, I'm with you. I thought that too.

558
00:32:39,320 --> 00:32:43,480
Speaker 1: So you brought up smartphones or did you say smartphones?

559
00:32:43,520 --> 00:32:46,320
Speaker 2: I did. I talked all about smartphones. I talked about yeah,

560
00:32:46,440 --> 00:32:49,560
Speaker 2: the iPhone four, the iPhone seven, all the way up

561
00:32:49,640 --> 00:32:52,720
Speaker 2: to the iPhone thirteen and just stop there inexplicably.

562
00:32:53,560 --> 00:32:57,400
Speaker 1: You know what's funny is a month before the new

563
00:32:57,440 --> 00:33:01,160
Speaker 1: iPhone comes out, we talked about play and obsolescence. My

564
00:33:01,480 --> 00:33:04,120
Speaker 1: trusty old iPhone twelve was finally dying.

565
00:33:05,040 --> 00:33:07,240
Speaker 2: I think that's when. That was during the time when

566
00:33:07,280 --> 00:33:11,440
Speaker 2: Apple was caught purposely draining batteries to make you have

567
00:33:11,560 --> 00:33:12,960
Speaker 2: to replace your phone.

568
00:33:13,280 --> 00:33:15,920
Speaker 1: I'm not conspiracy guy, but I'm just saying, like I

569
00:33:15,960 --> 00:33:17,440
Speaker 1: was going to get the new in anyway because it

570
00:33:17,480 --> 00:33:19,480
Speaker 1: was I usually do every three, and I waited four

571
00:33:19,560 --> 00:33:24,480
Speaker 1: this time, and so you no, I waited five because

572
00:33:24,520 --> 00:33:27,840
Speaker 1: I got a twelve and it's the seventeen, but yeah,

573
00:33:27,880 --> 00:33:30,600
Speaker 1: it's my battery just started going to zero and shutting

574
00:33:30,600 --> 00:33:32,200
Speaker 1: off and rebooting and uh.

575
00:33:32,000 --> 00:33:35,440
Speaker 2: Oh wait, it just happened. Your iPhone twelve just broke down.

576
00:33:36,080 --> 00:33:37,120
Speaker 1: Oh like last week.

577
00:33:37,200 --> 00:33:38,480
Speaker 2: That's actually pretty good.

578
00:33:39,720 --> 00:33:41,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, I guess so. But I was able to get

579
00:33:41,920 --> 00:33:45,280
Speaker 1: a aftermarket battery installed for sixty five bucks from the

580
00:33:45,320 --> 00:33:46,440
Speaker 1: local guy.

581
00:33:46,640 --> 00:33:49,560
Speaker 2: I know you know this, but I want to share

582
00:33:49,600 --> 00:33:50,640
Speaker 2: it to everybody.

583
00:33:51,120 --> 00:33:51,400
Speaker 1: Okay.

584
00:33:51,680 --> 00:33:54,920
Speaker 2: I had a lawnmower, a gas powered lawnmower, admittedly, but

585
00:33:55,000 --> 00:33:58,680
Speaker 2: it was broken, like ready for the dump, and I

586
00:33:58,720 --> 00:34:01,240
Speaker 2: was like, no, I'm going to this. So I called around.

587
00:34:01,320 --> 00:34:03,240
Speaker 2: There were some repair shops. They wanted to charge some

588
00:34:03,320 --> 00:34:05,920
Speaker 2: dough and I looked into what was probably wrong. It's

589
00:34:06,000 --> 00:34:09,280
Speaker 2: probably the carburetor, and I said, I'm going to replace

590
00:34:09,320 --> 00:34:12,960
Speaker 2: this carburetor. And by god, I replaced the carburetor and

591
00:34:13,040 --> 00:34:16,760
Speaker 2: when I was done, the first pull that lawmower started

592
00:34:16,760 --> 00:34:17,920
Speaker 2: for the first time in years.

593
00:34:19,160 --> 00:34:21,280
Speaker 1: I got a text from Josh on Tuesday at twenty

594
00:34:21,320 --> 00:34:24,800
Speaker 1: six penom, I just fixed my law mower by replacing

595
00:34:24,840 --> 00:34:26,960
Speaker 1: the carburetor and gas lines started on the first pole.

596
00:34:27,680 --> 00:34:30,440
Speaker 1: And then I replied. Eventually I put a radiator in

597
00:34:30,480 --> 00:34:32,120
Speaker 1: a VW Jetta in my thirties.

598
00:34:32,200 --> 00:34:32,359
Speaker 2: Yeah.

599
00:34:33,440 --> 00:34:36,160
Speaker 1: It was the only real manly thing I've ever done.

600
00:34:36,239 --> 00:34:40,040
Speaker 1: He said, Bam, all right, we should probably get back.

601
00:34:40,200 --> 00:34:43,080
Speaker 1: We had to have a laugh at some point, so

602
00:34:43,120 --> 00:34:43,919
Speaker 1: that parts over.

603
00:34:44,040 --> 00:34:46,200
Speaker 2: That's it. That's the one laugh. Everybody be quiet.

604
00:34:46,760 --> 00:34:49,000
Speaker 1: Back to smartphones changing the game because of all of

605
00:34:49,000 --> 00:34:52,319
Speaker 1: a sudden obviously people can see the stuff on social

606
00:34:52,400 --> 00:34:55,680
Speaker 1: media with their own two eyes much more than before.

607
00:34:55,920 --> 00:34:59,239
Speaker 1: And in the mid twenty tens. In twenty fourteen, the

608
00:34:59,239 --> 00:35:02,600
Speaker 1: Ferguson protes us We're a really good example of this

609
00:35:02,800 --> 00:35:05,960
Speaker 1: kind of happening. They were protesting after Michael Brown was

610
00:35:06,040 --> 00:35:10,880
Speaker 1: killed by officer Darren Wilson. The Obama administration declined to

611
00:35:10,920 --> 00:35:15,600
Speaker 1: prosecute that, and police got really aggressive on these protests.

612
00:35:15,640 --> 00:35:18,120
Speaker 1: They were, you know, the armored trucks came in, snipers

613
00:35:18,120 --> 00:35:21,520
Speaker 1: came in, those flash bang grenades that Josh loved talking about,

614
00:35:22,400 --> 00:35:25,040
Speaker 1: in tear gas, and there was a big public outcry

615
00:35:25,080 --> 00:35:28,120
Speaker 1: after that, such that Obama said, hey, maybe we want

616
00:35:28,160 --> 00:35:31,360
Speaker 1: to put some guardrails around this ten thirty three program.

617
00:35:30,920 --> 00:35:33,000
Speaker 2: Right, and they did. They said, okay, no more tanks

618
00:35:33,000 --> 00:35:36,560
Speaker 2: and grenade launchers, among some other stuff. But This is

619
00:35:36,600 --> 00:35:38,920
Speaker 2: I think the first time anyone had stepped in and

620
00:35:38,960 --> 00:35:43,520
Speaker 2: been like, we need to take some sort of prohibitions

621
00:35:43,600 --> 00:35:46,960
Speaker 2: or bands on what local police departments can get from

622
00:35:47,000 --> 00:35:49,000
Speaker 2: the military. Yeah.

623
00:35:49,040 --> 00:35:52,399
Speaker 1: And also, you know, if you're saying, like, why don't

624
00:35:52,440 --> 00:35:54,560
Speaker 1: they just get rid of ten thirty three A, it's

625
00:35:54,560 --> 00:35:57,640
Speaker 1: not going to happen. But critics of that will say, hey,

626
00:35:57,840 --> 00:36:01,040
Speaker 1: it's not just military weapons. They also take like our

627
00:36:01,080 --> 00:36:03,040
Speaker 1: old air conditioners that we were going to throw out

628
00:36:03,080 --> 00:36:06,040
Speaker 1: if a cash strapped police department needs a new air

629
00:36:06,040 --> 00:36:09,360
Speaker 1: conditioner and stuff like that. And I guess my response

630
00:36:09,400 --> 00:36:11,040
Speaker 1: to that is like, why don't you just create an

631
00:36:11,080 --> 00:36:12,160
Speaker 1: act about air conditioners?

632
00:36:12,160 --> 00:36:15,000
Speaker 2: Then? Well, right, exactly, like there's no reason you can't

633
00:36:15,040 --> 00:36:18,560
Speaker 2: continue the ten thirty three program, but ban yes, military

634
00:36:18,560 --> 00:36:22,319
Speaker 2: style weapons and armor, you know, not bill proofessed by armor,

635
00:36:22,360 --> 00:36:25,480
Speaker 2: I mean like M wraps and tanks and troop transports

636
00:36:25,520 --> 00:36:29,120
Speaker 2: and like helicopters like black Hawks and stuff like that.

637
00:36:29,640 --> 00:36:32,560
Speaker 2: There's it'd be easy as pie to do that. There's

638
00:36:32,600 --> 00:36:33,000
Speaker 2: just nothing.

639
00:36:33,080 --> 00:36:35,960
Speaker 1: I was kidding, by the way about the air Conditioner Act, so.

640
00:36:36,480 --> 00:36:38,040
Speaker 2: I know you were, but it is I mean, it's

641
00:36:38,080 --> 00:36:40,640
Speaker 2: a valid argument that there's actually lots of stuff that

642
00:36:40,719 --> 00:36:44,200
Speaker 2: doesn't make the news that's really helpful to police departments

643
00:36:44,200 --> 00:36:46,799
Speaker 2: that comes from the ten thirty three program. That's just

644
00:36:47,200 --> 00:36:50,000
Speaker 2: you could really easily adjust things, for sure.

645
00:36:50,520 --> 00:36:53,520
Speaker 1: Yeah. Absolutely, So Obama rolls back some of this in

646
00:36:53,560 --> 00:36:57,560
Speaker 1: twenty fifteen. Then the next administration came in and very

647
00:36:57,600 --> 00:37:01,960
Speaker 1: quickly rolled back those ten thirty three were four and

648
00:37:02,040 --> 00:37:04,400
Speaker 1: that's when the you know, the sort of ramped up

649
00:37:04,480 --> 00:37:08,720
Speaker 1: use of paramilitary forces to break up protests, increase guarding

650
00:37:08,760 --> 00:37:11,839
Speaker 1: federal monuments and statues and stuff like that because of vandalism.

651
00:37:12,600 --> 00:37:13,960
Speaker 2: One of the things I just want to say. One

652
00:37:14,000 --> 00:37:16,239
Speaker 2: of the things real quick that that Trump did when

653
00:37:16,239 --> 00:37:20,319
Speaker 2: he rolled back those reforms. Bayonets had been banned previously

654
00:37:20,920 --> 00:37:24,279
Speaker 2: and they got allowed again as part of that executive order.

655
00:37:24,760 --> 00:37:28,320
Speaker 2: And if there's one thing that you do not need

656
00:37:28,480 --> 00:37:31,560
Speaker 2: as a police officer is a bayonet.

657
00:37:34,000 --> 00:37:37,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, think about it. We should do it shorty on bayonets.

658
00:37:37,120 --> 00:37:39,839
Speaker 1: It's interesting, like, yeah, it's the concept of putting a

659
00:37:39,840 --> 00:37:41,480
Speaker 1: weapon on the front of your weapon. Yes, like a

660
00:37:41,880 --> 00:37:43,279
Speaker 1: less good weapon on the front of your web.

661
00:37:43,400 --> 00:37:45,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's meant to just an interesting stab somebody through

662
00:37:45,680 --> 00:37:47,760
Speaker 2: the chest or the neck or the face or something

663
00:37:47,840 --> 00:37:52,200
Speaker 2: like that like, and the concept of those things showing

664
00:37:52,320 --> 00:37:56,399
Speaker 2: up at a peaceful protest in case it breaks out

665
00:37:56,400 --> 00:37:59,359
Speaker 2: into violence, Like I just can't. It just is mind

666
00:37:59,400 --> 00:38:01,600
Speaker 2: boggling to me that bayonets were ever allowed.

667
00:38:02,239 --> 00:38:04,359
Speaker 1: Well, it just seems very old school. I mean, I

668
00:38:04,360 --> 00:38:06,759
Speaker 1: know why they've made bayonets just because back then those

669
00:38:06,880 --> 00:38:09,440
Speaker 1: the long rifles took a long time to reload. And

670
00:38:09,640 --> 00:38:11,560
Speaker 1: maybe we're hard to shoot in close quarters. So if

671
00:38:11,600 --> 00:38:13,000
Speaker 1: you were all of a sudden had a guy run

672
00:38:13,080 --> 00:38:15,680
Speaker 1: upon you on battle, you got to do some stab in.

673
00:38:16,520 --> 00:38:18,759
Speaker 1: And stab in from you know, three and a half

674
00:38:18,800 --> 00:38:22,040
Speaker 1: feet away is better than stabing in your hand. But

675
00:38:22,160 --> 00:38:24,640
Speaker 1: this isn't the French Foreign Legion, you know.

676
00:38:24,880 --> 00:38:27,640
Speaker 2: No, And what you're talking about is a military engagement,

677
00:38:27,760 --> 00:38:31,200
Speaker 2: not a law enforcement engagement. There's no place for bayonets

678
00:38:31,200 --> 00:38:34,920
Speaker 2: and law enforcement. I think that that is objectively true

679
00:38:35,000 --> 00:38:36,680
Speaker 2: as far as I'm concerned.

680
00:38:37,040 --> 00:38:41,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure. So in twenty twenty two, President Biden

681
00:38:41,880 --> 00:38:46,000
Speaker 1: signed an executive order reinstating and expanding some of these

682
00:38:46,040 --> 00:38:48,719
Speaker 1: ten thirty three reforms that the previous administration had gotten

683
00:38:48,760 --> 00:38:52,320
Speaker 1: rid of. They limited the use of no knock entries

684
00:38:53,960 --> 00:38:56,360
Speaker 1: and you know, basically try to you know, how it

685
00:38:56,360 --> 00:38:59,040
Speaker 1: happens when different administrations come in, they try to undo

686
00:38:59,080 --> 00:39:00,680
Speaker 1: what the previous person right.

687
00:39:01,200 --> 00:39:03,840
Speaker 2: And I looked high and low to see if President

688
00:39:03,840 --> 00:39:07,120
Speaker 2: Trump had come in on his second term and reversed

689
00:39:07,160 --> 00:39:11,680
Speaker 2: biden orders, and I couldn't see anything that said that.

690
00:39:11,760 --> 00:39:14,480
Speaker 2: All the talk about the reversal of the ten thirty

691
00:39:14,480 --> 00:39:17,560
Speaker 2: three orders was from the first term. But I did

692
00:39:17,560 --> 00:39:22,080
Speaker 2: see that it's possible that Biden's executive orders were never implemented,

693
00:39:22,120 --> 00:39:25,160
Speaker 2: so there was really nothing to roll back In practice.

694
00:39:25,719 --> 00:39:29,319
Speaker 1: Well, I mean that's another thing, and to itself. You

695
00:39:29,360 --> 00:39:32,120
Speaker 1: can get on TV and sign a thing, but implementation

696
00:39:32,239 --> 00:39:33,640
Speaker 1: is where the rubber meets arous.

697
00:39:33,760 --> 00:39:35,800
Speaker 2: That's where it's at. And you do get the impression

698
00:39:35,840 --> 00:39:38,840
Speaker 2: that there is a cynical thing among politicians that like, yeah,

699
00:39:39,160 --> 00:39:41,320
Speaker 2: we're not going to touch this ten thirty three program.

700
00:39:41,360 --> 00:39:44,120
Speaker 2: In reality, like it's like you said, it's not going anywhere.

701
00:39:44,320 --> 00:39:47,840
Speaker 2: If it didn't go anywhere. After the summer of twenty twenty,

702
00:39:47,920 --> 00:39:53,120
Speaker 2: after George Floyd's murder, Yeah, when there's never been more

703
00:39:53,640 --> 00:39:58,680
Speaker 2: and widespread focus on police, police tactics, militarization of the police,

704
00:39:58,960 --> 00:40:02,200
Speaker 2: so much ink was dr I actually found a teen

705
00:40:02,360 --> 00:40:06,360
Speaker 2: Vogue article from twenty twenty titled What's a no knock Warrant?

706
00:40:06,680 --> 00:40:09,600
Speaker 2: Teen Vogue was talking about it and if it survived

707
00:40:09,600 --> 00:40:13,400
Speaker 2: that it's gonna be really tough to ever just fully

708
00:40:13,400 --> 00:40:16,719
Speaker 2: get rid of it if you want it gotten rid of.

709
00:40:17,400 --> 00:40:19,720
Speaker 1: Yeah, and you weren't even researching, you were just reading

710
00:40:19,760 --> 00:40:20,840
Speaker 1: teen Vogue on the toilet.

711
00:40:20,880 --> 00:40:22,480
Speaker 2: I couldn't believe it. I was like, you got to

712
00:40:22,719 --> 00:40:26,479
Speaker 2: kid talking about COVID talking about no knock warrants. Teen

713
00:40:26,560 --> 00:40:28,120
Speaker 2: Vogue had their finger on the pulse.

714
00:40:29,600 --> 00:40:34,520
Speaker 1: So the question remains, you know, is this move to

715
00:40:34,600 --> 00:40:39,680
Speaker 1: militarize the police has it rather led to like better

716
00:40:39,719 --> 00:40:43,240
Speaker 1: public safety? I mean, because that's the ultimate goal seemingly,

717
00:40:44,360 --> 00:40:46,799
Speaker 1: And it kind of depends on what you define, you know,

718
00:40:46,840 --> 00:40:48,879
Speaker 1: how you define public safety, because that's going to change

719
00:40:48,920 --> 00:40:52,640
Speaker 1: depending on who you are. We have seen that militarization

720
00:40:53,320 --> 00:40:57,680
Speaker 1: canon has escalated encounters there have you know, it just

721
00:40:58,200 --> 00:40:59,880
Speaker 1: this is anecdotal. I don't know if there's a study,

722
00:41:00,239 --> 00:41:03,120
Speaker 1: but I feel like every time there's a protest happening

723
00:41:04,080 --> 00:41:07,200
Speaker 1: and the tanks roll in, that's when it goes bad.

724
00:41:07,760 --> 00:41:10,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's that's exactly what a lot of people say

725
00:41:10,000 --> 00:41:15,240
Speaker 2: about say for example, Ferguson. I from what I could tell,

726
00:41:15,360 --> 00:41:20,680
Speaker 2: the riots started before the police responded, but they started

727
00:41:21,360 --> 00:41:24,320
Speaker 2: like after the police showed up. So yes, some people

728
00:41:24,360 --> 00:41:29,400
Speaker 2: are saying just seeing police like that is intimidating and antagonizing,

729
00:41:29,440 --> 00:41:33,520
Speaker 2: I guess, and that I think the next day after

730
00:41:33,600 --> 00:41:36,239
Speaker 2: the whole world was like what are you guys doing

731
00:41:36,239 --> 00:41:41,000
Speaker 2: in Ferguson, the governor of Missouri told the Ferguson Police

732
00:41:41,000 --> 00:41:45,240
Speaker 2: Department to stand down and send out the Missouri Highway

733
00:41:45,239 --> 00:41:50,319
Speaker 2: Patrol and they they basically walked step in step with

734
00:41:50,520 --> 00:41:54,759
Speaker 2: the protesters, the peaceful protesters, and they used that law

735
00:41:54,840 --> 00:41:57,760
Speaker 2: enforcement tactic and apparently it was to pretty good effect.

736
00:41:58,800 --> 00:42:01,279
Speaker 1: Yeah. I mean, one thing is for sure is that

737
00:42:01,960 --> 00:42:05,799
Speaker 1: it's led to the killing of a lot more citizens

738
00:42:05,880 --> 00:42:09,080
Speaker 1: by the police. And this is a pretty shocking stat

739
00:42:09,160 --> 00:42:11,920
Speaker 1: and you know, anytime you're comparing the UK to the

740
00:42:12,040 --> 00:42:15,759
Speaker 1: United States, it's I mean, some people might say that's

741
00:42:15,760 --> 00:42:18,320
Speaker 1: not a fair comparison because they just do things so differently,

742
00:42:18,360 --> 00:42:20,920
Speaker 1: but that's kind of the point, and you know, delivering

743
00:42:20,920 --> 00:42:23,959
Speaker 1: these statistics. So the Guardian reported that in the first

744
00:42:24,200 --> 00:42:27,920
Speaker 1: very first month in January, only of twenty fifteen American

745
00:42:27,920 --> 00:42:31,479
Speaker 1: police killed more US citizens than police in the UK

746
00:42:31,640 --> 00:42:35,759
Speaker 1: had in the last twenty four years combined. Yeah, one month,

747
00:42:36,080 --> 00:42:36,759
Speaker 1: twenty four years.

748
00:42:36,840 --> 00:42:42,160
Speaker 2: Right, And those are typically like used most often, we

749
00:42:42,239 --> 00:42:44,520
Speaker 2: guess we should say there are very few states that

750
00:42:44,600 --> 00:42:49,480
Speaker 2: actually require police departments to maintain statistics, including on swat teams,

751
00:42:49,760 --> 00:42:53,600
Speaker 2: how often they're used, where they're deployed. Again, anecdotally, they

752
00:42:53,600 --> 00:42:56,480
Speaker 2: do seem to be much more present and much more

753
00:42:56,600 --> 00:43:02,239
Speaker 2: used in predominantly black communities. But there have been studies

754
00:43:02,480 --> 00:43:06,640
Speaker 2: that have shown like this is actually counterproductive. Did you

755
00:43:06,640 --> 00:43:11,560
Speaker 2: see that one from Princeton from I think twenty eighteen.

756
00:43:12,920 --> 00:43:17,840
Speaker 2: It was it basically found that the militarization of police

757
00:43:18,440 --> 00:43:23,040
Speaker 2: has a counterproductive effect on police themselves, in that it

758
00:43:23,200 --> 00:43:27,440
Speaker 2: affects it negatively impacts public perception of police. And the

759
00:43:27,480 --> 00:43:31,719
Speaker 2: study showed that it actually had a negative impact on

760
00:43:31,920 --> 00:43:37,640
Speaker 2: public support for expanding police budgets. So by militarizing, you

761
00:43:37,640 --> 00:43:39,719
Speaker 2: can make a case that they're also shooting themselves in

762
00:43:39,760 --> 00:43:44,600
Speaker 2: the feet metaphorically.

763
00:43:43,000 --> 00:43:45,840
Speaker 1: No pun intending, right, shooting themselves in the feet with

764
00:43:45,880 --> 00:43:46,640
Speaker 1: a grenade launcher.

765
00:43:46,800 --> 00:43:49,840
Speaker 2: Right. And there was another study I wanted to mention too.

766
00:43:50,719 --> 00:43:53,600
Speaker 2: It was from Emery here in Atlanta. It was from

767
00:43:53,640 --> 00:43:56,080
Speaker 2: twenty twenty. And there are these two studies that came

768
00:43:56,120 --> 00:43:59,600
Speaker 2: out in twenty fourteen twenty seventeen that are pretty prominent

769
00:43:59,640 --> 00:44:03,760
Speaker 2: in they're typically used to support the idea that militarization

770
00:44:03,840 --> 00:44:08,640
Speaker 2: of police actually has a like increases public safety. And

771
00:44:08,719 --> 00:44:11,680
Speaker 2: this twenty twenty study looked at those studies and said

772
00:44:11,960 --> 00:44:15,080
Speaker 2: these studies did not have enough data to come to

773
00:44:15,120 --> 00:44:18,560
Speaker 2: these conclusions and basically debunked them. And again, the reason

774
00:44:18,560 --> 00:44:21,560
Speaker 2: why is because no statistics are required in most states

775
00:44:21,920 --> 00:44:25,040
Speaker 2: on things like swat use. So you can't possibly say

776
00:44:25,160 --> 00:44:28,040
Speaker 2: that if you carry out one hundred rates a year,

777
00:44:28,200 --> 00:44:30,440
Speaker 2: public safety is going to go down by or going

778
00:44:30,520 --> 00:44:33,359
Speaker 2: to increase by ten percent or something like that. You

779
00:44:33,440 --> 00:44:35,600
Speaker 2: just you can't do it. So studies on that are

780
00:44:36,000 --> 00:44:38,920
Speaker 2: inherently faulty. And before you say, well, what about that

781
00:44:38,960 --> 00:44:44,440
Speaker 2: twenty eighteen Princeton study that looks specifically at Maryland, which

782
00:44:44,480 --> 00:44:47,480
Speaker 2: is one of those rare states that does require reporting

783
00:44:47,520 --> 00:44:53,480
Speaker 2: by police departments. Yeah, so you got anything else to

784
00:44:53,520 --> 00:44:55,440
Speaker 2: say about it?

785
00:44:55,600 --> 00:44:57,879
Speaker 1: Plenty? But I feel like this is a good stopping boy.

786
00:44:57,960 --> 00:45:00,799
Speaker 2: Okay, I would love to hear from police officers who

787
00:45:00,800 --> 00:45:02,560
Speaker 2: listened to stuff you should know out there who are

788
00:45:02,840 --> 00:45:06,360
Speaker 2: for militarization and against it. I would definitely, yeah, for

789
00:45:06,360 --> 00:45:07,719
Speaker 2: sure those opinions in.

790
00:45:07,680 --> 00:45:09,360
Speaker 1: Point yeah, we'll read some of that stuff on the

791
00:45:09,360 --> 00:45:10,200
Speaker 1: air very nice.

792
00:45:10,600 --> 00:45:13,080
Speaker 2: Well, since Chuck agreed to read some stuff on the air,

793
00:45:13,320 --> 00:45:14,840
Speaker 2: that means it's time for listener mail.

794
00:45:17,800 --> 00:45:20,040
Speaker 1: All right. We're getting a lot of good feedback about

795
00:45:20,080 --> 00:45:23,719
Speaker 1: our heavy metal episodes, which makes our heart warm because

796
00:45:23,760 --> 00:45:26,800
Speaker 1: we care about all the episodes. But I think everyone

797
00:45:26,800 --> 00:45:30,600
Speaker 1: could tell we were pretty jazzed about those yep this

798
00:45:30,640 --> 00:45:32,799
Speaker 1: one and I'll probably be reading a lot of metal

799
00:45:32,800 --> 00:45:35,239
Speaker 1: emails over the next few weeks, but this one's from Kevin.

800
00:45:35,239 --> 00:45:37,719
Speaker 1: It's kind of fun. Hey, guys, thanks for the metal ups.

801
00:45:37,960 --> 00:45:40,919
Speaker 1: Growing up in the eighties, pop radio and MTV taught

802
00:45:40,920 --> 00:45:44,520
Speaker 1: me that metals big three were tights, makeup, and hairspray.

803
00:45:45,040 --> 00:45:46,880
Speaker 1: I was way too cool for that and opted for

804
00:45:46,920 --> 00:45:49,719
Speaker 1: the other big three. Dismissed the Cure and Depeche Mode.

805
00:45:50,080 --> 00:45:53,799
Speaker 1: I was doing both, my friend, because you can. But

806
00:45:53,920 --> 00:45:56,439
Speaker 1: I always enjoy a musical history lesson, so thanks. Later

807
00:45:56,480 --> 00:45:58,520
Speaker 1: in life, I joined a cover band and will grudgingly

808
00:45:58,600 --> 00:46:01,919
Speaker 1: admit that some of the hair band songs worked well

809
00:46:01,920 --> 00:46:04,360
Speaker 1: for us, which is why I'm still mythed that my

810
00:46:04,480 --> 00:46:09,080
Speaker 1: idea for naming our band was rejected. It was Cheryl Crue.

811
00:46:09,840 --> 00:46:14,680
Speaker 2: Oh that's a great one. That's up there with Overdry. Yeah.

812
00:46:14,680 --> 00:46:17,879
Speaker 1: I'm generally not a pun band name guy, except for

813
00:46:18,160 --> 00:46:19,760
Speaker 1: the Beatles and Cheryl Crue.

814
00:46:19,800 --> 00:46:20,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's pretty good.

815
00:46:21,880 --> 00:46:25,160
Speaker 1: That is from Kevin. And I also wanted to mention

816
00:46:25,200 --> 00:46:28,759
Speaker 1: real quick that I read in like four days. I

817
00:46:28,800 --> 00:46:32,640
Speaker 1: had the Nicky six Heroin Diaries book sitting on my

818
00:46:32,640 --> 00:46:36,440
Speaker 1: shelf for a couple of years and had just finished

819
00:46:38,200 --> 00:46:41,280
Speaker 1: where did I just finish? I finished the Bruce Springsteen book,

820
00:46:42,160 --> 00:46:44,200
Speaker 1: the one about the movie coming out, and I dove

821
00:46:44,320 --> 00:46:46,880
Speaker 1: right into the Heroin Diaries and read it in three days.

822
00:46:47,680 --> 00:46:50,160
Speaker 1: And it is a boy. I can't say it was

823
00:46:50,200 --> 00:46:53,880
Speaker 1: a fun read. It was harrowing. Yeah, to read the

824
00:46:53,880 --> 00:46:56,960
Speaker 1: Diaries of Nicky six in those days.

825
00:46:56,160 --> 00:47:02,960
Speaker 2: I just finished the letter in Encyclopedia metanicis sweethe volumes.

826
00:47:03,400 --> 00:47:04,200
Speaker 1: Oh very nice.

827
00:47:04,280 --> 00:47:09,240
Speaker 2: I'm just kidding. I am kidding, by the way. Oh okay,

828
00:47:09,640 --> 00:47:11,120
Speaker 2: who was that that wrote in Kevin?

829
00:47:11,719 --> 00:47:12,359
Speaker 1: Yeah that was Kevin.

830
00:47:12,440 --> 00:47:15,799
Speaker 2: Nice work, Kevin. We appreciate that. Into all of you

831
00:47:15,840 --> 00:47:19,560
Speaker 2: who enjoyed the Metal episodes, Thank you, rock on and

832
00:47:19,600 --> 00:47:21,719
Speaker 2: If you want to get in touch with us, you

833
00:47:21,760 --> 00:47:24,120
Speaker 2: can send us an email to send it off to

834
00:47:24,200 --> 00:47:30,600
Speaker 2: stuff Podcasts at iHeartRadio dot com.

835
00:47:30,760 --> 00:47:33,640
Speaker 1: Stuff you Should Know is a production of iHeartRadio. For

836
00:47:33,719 --> 00:47:37,920
Speaker 1: more podcasts my heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,

837
00:47:38,040 --> 00:47:39,880
Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.