WEBVTT - Overcoming Your Scarcity Brain w/ Michael Easter #773 0:00:00.080 --> 0:00:01.440 Welcome to How to Money. 0:00:01.520 --> 0:00:04.680 I'm Joel and I am Matt and today we're talking 0:00:04.800 --> 0:00:07.720 overcoming your Scarcity Brain with Michael Easter. 0:00:26.920 --> 0:00:29.760 Yeah, that's right. We are joined by Michael Easter. So 0:00:29.840 --> 0:00:33.280 he's the author of Scarcity Brain, and we are pumped 0:00:33.280 --> 0:00:35.760 to have him on the podcast today. And so we're 0:00:35.760 --> 0:00:38.279 talking about scarcity, right, And even though we know what 0:00:38.360 --> 0:00:42.000 the word means, scarcity is likely a concept that a 0:00:42.080 --> 0:00:45.159 few folks listening to this podcast have much experience with, 0:00:45.720 --> 0:00:48.320 at the very least in our quite developed country. We 0:00:48.360 --> 0:00:50.800 have enough food, we have enough shelter and clothing on 0:00:50.960 --> 0:00:53.040 hand that the vast majority of folks haven't felt the 0:00:53.040 --> 0:00:56.680 true impacts of real scarcity. And in fact, most of 0:00:56.720 --> 0:00:59.240 us have more than we need of all of those things, 0:00:59.240 --> 0:01:02.480 plus the countless cardboard boxes of stuff that we can 0:01:02.520 --> 0:01:05.960 also purchase to fill in any remaining containers and closets 0:01:06.000 --> 0:01:09.039 that aren't already bursting up the seams. But we are 0:01:09.080 --> 0:01:11.680 talking with Michael, and he has traveled the world. He's 0:01:12.000 --> 0:01:15.560 observed tribes and the jungles of Bolivia. He studied addiction 0:01:15.680 --> 0:01:19.560 and bombed out hotels in Baghdad. He's spoken with the 0:01:19.600 --> 0:01:24.240 top researchers of psychology in order to understand the human mind, 0:01:24.280 --> 0:01:26.120 and we're gonna be talking about how it is that 0:01:26.160 --> 0:01:28.840 we can shake some bad habits in order to live 0:01:28.920 --> 0:01:31.800 more fulfilling lives, and hopefully we'll have some great takeaways 0:01:31.800 --> 0:01:34.120 on how it is that we can view and pursue 0:01:34.280 --> 0:01:37.320 money in a more satisfying way as well. Michael, thank 0:01:37.360 --> 0:01:39.399 you so much for joining us today on the podcast. 0:01:39.520 --> 0:01:41.280 Yeah, thanks for having me. Guys. This should be fun. 0:01:41.800 --> 0:01:44.240 Yeah, we're looking forward to it, Michael. The first question 0:01:44.280 --> 0:01:46.880 we ask anybody who comes on the show is and 0:01:46.959 --> 0:01:49.960 it reveals a little bit about them. But, like Matt 0:01:49.960 --> 0:01:51.880 and I, we like to save and invest money for 0:01:51.880 --> 0:01:54.000 the future, but we also like to spend money in 0:01:54.000 --> 0:01:56.040 the here and now on things that matter to us. 0:01:56.120 --> 0:01:58.920 Craft beer is one of those, and so we always 0:01:58.960 --> 0:02:01.520 like to ask our guests what's their craft to beer equivalent? 0:02:01.720 --> 0:02:05.200 What are they spending money on intentionally, maybe more so 0:02:05.280 --> 0:02:08.280 than most people would think is wise while they're doing 0:02:08.280 --> 0:02:09.400 the right thing with their money too. 0:02:09.880 --> 0:02:15.040 Yeah, I would say my most obscene purchase is probably 0:02:15.040 --> 0:02:17.600 a nice watch. Now, I will say it's because one 0:02:18.800 --> 0:02:21.760 I just like well made watches, kind of a watchdork. 0:02:21.800 --> 0:02:25.480 But two, I also rationalize it as a business expense 0:02:25.520 --> 0:02:29.239 because in some of the places I travel for my work, 0:02:29.840 --> 0:02:32.480 having a nice bargaining chip if you find yourself in 0:02:32.480 --> 0:02:35.960 a pickle is a good thing. And certain certain brands 0:02:35.960 --> 0:02:37.359 it's like, I mean, they'll that'll get you out of 0:02:37.400 --> 0:02:39.440 a pickle pretty quick if you're like, hey, I'll trade 0:02:39.440 --> 0:02:41.160 you my watch for X y Z. So that's how 0:02:41.200 --> 0:02:41.880 I rationalize it. 0:02:41.919 --> 0:02:42.680 Okay, it's so funny. 0:02:42.720 --> 0:02:46.280 Matt just stumbled upon at a bar recently, a watch 0:02:46.480 --> 0:02:47.440 club and I. 0:02:47.680 --> 0:02:50.120 Swear local restaurants, so it's called red bar. Do you 0:02:50.120 --> 0:02:52.280 have one of those one of those clubs over there? 0:02:52.840 --> 0:02:54.360 Well maybe I don't. I nothing that I know of. 0:02:54.560 --> 0:02:57.400 Okay, but if Matt's going to get into any hobby, 0:02:57.440 --> 0:02:59.120 I'm predicting it's going to be fancy watches. 0:02:59.200 --> 0:03:00.959 So I would I would. I would tell you to 0:03:01.000 --> 0:03:02.240 avoid it. You'll save a lot of money. 0:03:03.480 --> 0:03:06.800 I do feel like I am resisting. Like Joel talked 0:03:06.800 --> 0:03:09.280 me into getting this garment, which actually maybe we'll talk 0:03:09.280 --> 0:03:13.639 about this later on as far as technology and gamification, 0:03:13.880 --> 0:03:16.880 but they were on sale at Costco, and I have 0:03:17.000 --> 0:03:20.000 been pretty happy with not only the time it keeps, 0:03:20.040 --> 0:03:22.959 but also some of the health data, the stats that 0:03:23.320 --> 0:03:25.000 it feeds me. It's amazing how much it gives you 0:03:25.000 --> 0:03:27.120 for one hundred and fifty bucks. Yes, yes, say that 0:03:27.120 --> 0:03:32.200 I'm trying to avoid the chronographs, actual fancy watches. But Michael, 0:03:32.520 --> 0:03:34.160 I feel like now is as good a time as 0:03:34.160 --> 0:03:36.480 ever to talk about habits here towards the beginning of 0:03:36.480 --> 0:03:38.640 the year. But you say that this is a quote, 0:03:38.680 --> 0:03:41.119 it doesn't matter how much gas that we give our 0:03:41.680 --> 0:03:44.320 good new habits if we don't resolve our bad ones, 0:03:44.480 --> 0:03:47.040 we still have our foot on the break. Talk to 0:03:47.120 --> 0:03:50.200 us about what you mean by that and why you're 0:03:50.280 --> 0:03:53.000 kind of obsessed with individual human behavior that's actually in 0:03:53.040 --> 0:03:54.800 our own worst interest. 0:03:54.960 --> 0:03:57.840 Yeah. Well, I mean it's rather simple that we kind 0:03:57.840 --> 0:04:00.720 of live in this world where there's all the information 0:04:00.760 --> 0:04:02.600 about all these things we should do. I mean, I'm 0:04:02.680 --> 0:04:06.120 kind of more in the health wellness psychology space, and 0:04:06.520 --> 0:04:09.240 you know, you see, it's like adopt this new specific 0:04:09.280 --> 0:04:11.960 exercise routine, add this food to your thing. We're always 0:04:11.960 --> 0:04:14.320 trying to add the next new good habit. But when 0:04:14.400 --> 0:04:18.040 you look at what actually moves the ball farthest downfield 0:04:18.040 --> 0:04:20.680 for people in terms of improving their life, improving their 0:04:20.680 --> 0:04:23.040 well being. I would imagine the exact same thing follows 0:04:23.040 --> 0:04:25.760 for finances. It's to stop doing the stuff that hurts 0:04:25.800 --> 0:04:29.720 you most. Yeah, so it's to cut out the foods 0:04:29.960 --> 0:04:32.640 that are your triggers and are leading you to gain weight. 0:04:32.680 --> 0:04:36.840 It's to stop making that purchase that is putting a 0:04:36.839 --> 0:04:42.119 massive dent in your finances. Usually, all things equal, taking 0:04:42.160 --> 0:04:44.240 away bad habits is going to move the ball a 0:04:44.279 --> 0:04:47.200 lot farther downfield than is adding good, new, shiny habits. 0:04:47.200 --> 0:04:50.560 Because if you are giving gas to those good new 0:04:50.560 --> 0:04:52.320 habits but you still have your bad ones, it's like 0:04:52.360 --> 0:04:55.320 you just got the car and with the emergency breake on. 0:04:55.520 --> 0:04:57.400 Yeah yeah, and you're just like reving the engine. You're 0:04:57.440 --> 0:04:59.480 not going anywhere. You're doing a lot of damage. At 0:04:59.480 --> 0:05:02.559 the same time, give me the elevator pitch for your book, 0:05:02.680 --> 0:05:05.120 Scarcely Brain, Like, what is it that you were trying 0:05:05.160 --> 0:05:07.560 to accomplish with this one? Because you've I mean, I 0:05:07.600 --> 0:05:10.279 was telling you before we start recording, I read your 0:05:10.320 --> 0:05:13.840 book The Comfort Crisis before I read this one. Talk 0:05:13.880 --> 0:05:15.680 to me about Scarcly Brain and what made you cause 0:05:15.839 --> 0:05:16.800 what caused you to write it? 0:05:16.960 --> 0:05:19.160 Yeah, I mean, so the underlying question of that book is, 0:05:19.360 --> 0:05:21.920 you know, everyone knows that everything is fine in moderation, 0:05:22.680 --> 0:05:27.320 and yet everyone sucks at moderation. So and so why 0:05:27.440 --> 0:05:29.880 is that right? And what is it that we can't 0:05:29.880 --> 0:05:32.520 seem to moderate? And when you look at it, the 0:05:32.960 --> 0:05:36.080 behaviors that people have trouble with is they usually fall 0:05:36.120 --> 0:05:39.920 into a handful of silos like eating too much food, 0:05:40.560 --> 0:05:45.920 buying too much stuff, information, binges online, etcetera, etcetera, etcetera. 0:05:45.960 --> 0:05:48.240 And these are all behaviors that in the past would 0:05:48.240 --> 0:05:50.960 have helped us survive. So a lot of my work 0:05:51.000 --> 0:05:54.560 it takes in evolutionary lens in our modern problems. So 0:05:54.640 --> 0:05:56.560 if you think about all the things we crave today, 0:05:57.640 --> 0:06:00.799 usually in the past they were scarce, were hard to find, 0:06:01.200 --> 0:06:03.800 and if you would have sort of overdone them, that 0:06:03.839 --> 0:06:08.120 would have given you a survival advantage. But in today's world, 0:06:08.120 --> 0:06:11.520 where we have an overload of information, where we have 0:06:11.560 --> 0:06:14.760 an overload of food, where we have Amazon Prime and 0:06:14.800 --> 0:06:16.800 a billion items that we could buy and get in 0:06:16.960 --> 0:06:20.320 twenty four hours all at our fingertips, that is not 0:06:20.560 --> 0:06:22.760 always so good for us. So we tend to we 0:06:22.839 --> 0:06:24.640 tend to overdo these things in a world where it 0:06:24.720 --> 0:06:25.719 ultimately Backfuyers. 0:06:26.160 --> 0:06:29.400 Talk to us about scarcity, Ques, Michael, because you say 0:06:29.440 --> 0:06:31.080 that they can be they can be big, but they 0:06:31.120 --> 0:06:34.360 can also be small and subtle, you know, even down 0:06:34.400 --> 0:06:37.200 to our neighbors, like buying a new car. You know, 0:06:37.320 --> 0:06:40.479 is that keeping up with the joneses like a queue 0:06:40.520 --> 0:06:43.159 in this case, you know, just the felt need to 0:06:43.560 --> 0:06:47.280 not lag behind others, our neighbors, our friends, even if 0:06:47.320 --> 0:06:49.640 it ends up meaning that we end up going down 0:06:49.680 --> 0:06:51.880 the path of falling into consumer debt. Talk to us 0:06:51.880 --> 0:06:53.360 a little bit about scarcity, Ques. 0:06:53.480 --> 0:06:56.720 Yeah, So scarcity queue is a piece of information in 0:06:56.760 --> 0:06:59.040 our environment and we encounter in our environment that makes 0:06:59.120 --> 0:07:00.960 us feel as if the resources that we need to 0:07:01.000 --> 0:07:04.640 sort of thrive and survive are scarce. So I'll give 0:07:04.680 --> 0:07:07.640 the example of, you know, neighbor buys a fancy new car. 0:07:07.880 --> 0:07:10.080 What tends to happen is that this is a this 0:07:10.120 --> 0:07:12.480 is a sort of threat to our status almost So 0:07:12.480 --> 0:07:14.640 the scarcity que is that we don't have enough status 0:07:14.680 --> 0:07:17.640 because now people buy cars, yes, to get from point 0:07:17.640 --> 0:07:19.960 A to point B, but also because cars would become 0:07:20.000 --> 0:07:22.480 a sort of status symbol. And it can be something 0:07:22.560 --> 0:07:26.360 as simple as that. A good big example that I 0:07:26.400 --> 0:07:29.880 think everyone can identify with would be the pandemic. So 0:07:29.920 --> 0:07:32.960 when the pandemic first set in, you know, all of 0:07:33.000 --> 0:07:35.640 a sudden, everyone goes, oh, I'm not going to have 0:07:35.760 --> 0:07:38.119 enough food, I'm not going to have enough toilet paper, 0:07:38.160 --> 0:07:40.160 I'm not going to have enough xyz. Right, this big 0:07:40.200 --> 0:07:42.000 scarcity que. So what does everyone do. They go to 0:07:42.000 --> 0:07:44.800 the grocery stores. They brawl in the aisle, they buy 0:07:44.840 --> 0:07:47.640 all kinds of food that they're never going to eat. Right, 0:07:47.680 --> 0:07:48.920 It's like, oh, we've got to have one hundred and 0:07:48.920 --> 0:07:50.240 tens of spam. Definitely throw that. 0:07:50.440 --> 0:07:52.280 The twenty five pound bag of rice from Costco came 0:07:52.320 --> 0:07:53.640 and clutch Michael. 0:07:55.360 --> 0:07:58.720 I believe it. But they don't have to beat that 0:07:58.760 --> 0:08:01.040 big either. I mean, there's this it's really interesting research 0:08:01.080 --> 0:08:04.840 from Vanderbilt that found that even when people have a 0:08:04.880 --> 0:08:07.280 scarcity queue, like running out of ink and a pen 0:08:07.520 --> 0:08:11.320 something as simple as that, they will make decisions that 0:08:12.000 --> 0:08:15.320 sort of let's show hoarding behavior. So they'll be like, Okay, 0:08:15.320 --> 0:08:17.840 I need multiple pens, and like they start kind of 0:08:17.880 --> 0:08:22.400 freaking out inside. And so I think that you see this, 0:08:22.400 --> 0:08:27.240 this is basically an evolutionary survival thing we have right 0:08:27.320 --> 0:08:29.160 in the past. If you had this cue that like, 0:08:29.160 --> 0:08:30.960 oh maybe I'm not going to have enough food to survive. 0:08:31.640 --> 0:08:34.120 Oh no, it would totally make sense to go out 0:08:34.160 --> 0:08:36.720 and try and hoard as much food as possible. But 0:08:36.840 --> 0:08:40.640 today it's like food is never really that's scary exactly right. 0:08:40.679 --> 0:08:42.200 I mean we throw out about a third of the 0:08:42.240 --> 0:08:44.480 food that we produce in this country, and so and 0:08:44.600 --> 0:08:46.840 this and this all obviously applies to a lot of 0:08:46.840 --> 0:08:48.920 different areas in our lives, and I think it ultimately 0:08:48.960 --> 0:08:52.600 leads people to make decisions that don't exactly make sense 0:08:52.640 --> 0:08:53.680 in the context of today. 0:08:53.840 --> 0:08:56.959 So how do we connect our brains to kind of 0:08:57.000 --> 0:09:00.320 the scarcity queue? Maybe that's tapping into some sort of 0:09:00.679 --> 0:09:03.840 primal urge that might cause us to do something that's 0:09:03.880 --> 0:09:06.600 not in our best interest because times have changed. And 0:09:06.679 --> 0:09:08.880 guess what, Like I don't necessarily need to go buy 0:09:08.880 --> 0:09:11.080 a twelve pack of pens just because I ran out 0:09:11.120 --> 0:09:12.720 of ink in the one and actually I probably have 0:09:12.760 --> 0:09:14.800 three more in the drawer somewhere that I just haven't 0:09:14.800 --> 0:09:17.000 looked for yet. Is there a way to kind of 0:09:17.320 --> 0:09:21.200 overcome that scarcity Q that kind of gets brought to 0:09:21.240 --> 0:09:23.880 your attention, but it's almost like subconscious Yeah. 0:09:23.720 --> 0:09:25.920 I think we need pretty much we need to use 0:09:25.960 --> 0:09:29.640 full heuristics. So I'll give you an example with possessions. 0:09:30.120 --> 0:09:33.000 So there are effectively four reasons why people buy stuff. 0:09:33.520 --> 0:09:37.320 The first is because stuff is a tool, Right, you 0:09:37.440 --> 0:09:41.160 use tools to accomplish something. That's how things have pretty 0:09:41.240 --> 0:09:44.120 much always been. But you can also buy stuff, like 0:09:44.160 --> 0:09:46.600 I mentioned before, for status. You buy it because it 0:09:47.120 --> 0:09:50.040 elevates you over someone else in the social hierarchy. The 0:09:50.080 --> 0:09:54.320 third reason is because possessions can help us feel belonging. So, 0:09:54.360 --> 0:09:57.960 for example, you buy a Utah jazz jersey because you're 0:09:57.960 --> 0:09:59.800 a Utah jazz fan and you want to identify with 0:09:59.840 --> 0:10:01.520 that the jaz fans, Right, it's part of this like 0:10:01.760 --> 0:10:06.080 collective thing. And then fourth is boredom. So you see 0:10:06.080 --> 0:10:09.200 that when people get bored, we go looking for escapes 0:10:09.480 --> 0:10:12.160 from it, and today we usually go on our phones. 0:10:12.400 --> 0:10:14.520 And what we look at on our phones, I mean 0:10:14.559 --> 0:10:17.480 we're seeing advertisement after advertisement, and it's never been easier 0:10:17.520 --> 0:10:20.440 before to click that ad, click through to the buy button, 0:10:20.559 --> 0:10:22.920 and then buy this thing that you go, wait, did 0:10:22.920 --> 0:10:26.360 I really need that? So in the context of this, 0:10:26.400 --> 0:10:29.400 I think you need to when you're sort of feeling 0:10:29.480 --> 0:10:31.960 like you want to say, make a purchase, you need 0:10:32.040 --> 0:10:34.360 to ask yourself what am I buying this for? Is 0:10:34.360 --> 0:10:36.600 it for status? Is it because I want to feel 0:10:36.640 --> 0:10:38.559 some sort of belonging. Can I get that elsewhere? Or 0:10:38.600 --> 0:10:41.240 am I just bored? So I run things through the 0:10:41.280 --> 0:10:45.720 heuristic of gear not stuff. So gear gears is possessions 0:10:45.720 --> 0:10:48.520 that we use to achieve a higher purpose, right, We're 0:10:48.600 --> 0:10:51.280 using them to accomplish some bigger thing that gives us 0:10:51.280 --> 0:10:54.600 deeper meaning, whereas everything else stuff is sort of like, yeah, 0:10:54.600 --> 0:10:56.559 I'm going to buy this brand because I want to 0:10:56.600 --> 0:10:58.760 look cooler than my neighbor, or I want to do 0:10:58.800 --> 0:11:00.560 this because I want to feel some belonging with this 0:11:00.720 --> 0:11:03.400 random you know, corporation, whatever it might be, or I'm 0:11:03.400 --> 0:11:05.000 just bored. And so I think trying to figure out 0:11:05.440 --> 0:11:07.200 get to the root of why you're doing what you're 0:11:07.320 --> 0:11:10.480 what you do is the key to starting to unpack 0:11:10.760 --> 0:11:11.880 larger behavior changes. 0:11:12.120 --> 0:11:15.960 So as you kind of run a purchase through that 0:11:16.000 --> 0:11:18.800 set of criteria, are some of those do you think 0:11:18.840 --> 0:11:21.080 inherently better than the others? Obviously, Like when you say 0:11:21.120 --> 0:11:24.240 something is a tool, it sounds cool, or you know, 0:11:24.280 --> 0:11:27.400 like it's it's it sounds like justified, it sounds noble, 0:11:27.480 --> 0:11:29.720 you're like, oh, no, I'm using this to accomplish something, 0:11:30.080 --> 0:11:34.199 whereas obviously boredom is that sounds like a terrible reason. 0:11:35.440 --> 0:11:37.480 But I feel so I feel like the two in 0:11:37.520 --> 0:11:40.280 the middle, right, status and belonging, I feel like those 0:11:40.320 --> 0:11:41.880 are a little squishier. I feel like, in my mind, 0:11:41.920 --> 0:11:45.160 those are a little more gray. And would you push 0:11:45.200 --> 0:11:47.960 back against anybody who would be critical of somebody for 0:11:48.040 --> 0:11:51.400 buying something in order to fit in with a group, 0:11:51.480 --> 0:11:54.240 you know, for that belonging, or even to signal to 0:11:54.360 --> 0:11:57.000 others that maybe they're better, right, Like, that's basically that 0:11:57.000 --> 0:11:59.320 that conspicuous consumption that you're talking about, or that's what 0:11:59.360 --> 0:12:02.360 luxury goods are, all right, almost totally. 0:12:02.600 --> 0:12:05.440 So I think that my I'm definitely not here to 0:12:05.640 --> 0:12:08.600 pass any value judgments. I would rather just people be 0:12:08.640 --> 0:12:11.000 aware of why. Okay, So you know, I always like 0:12:11.040 --> 0:12:15.040 to say, you know, for example, let's take behaviors of 0:12:15.160 --> 0:12:17.760 using your phone too much. It's like, I don't care 0:12:17.800 --> 0:12:20.520 if someone wants to spend nine hours a day on Instagram. 0:12:20.559 --> 0:12:22.480 I really don't care. But what I want people to 0:12:22.520 --> 0:12:24.920 be able to do is make the conscious decision about 0:12:25.320 --> 0:12:28.560 them doing that, because often today we do things without 0:12:28.600 --> 0:12:33.000 really understanding what the underlying motivation is. So if you 0:12:33.120 --> 0:12:36.840 want to buy that, you know, whatever it is, certain, 0:12:36.920 --> 0:12:40.000 I'll take myself that certain watch brand. Yeah, because it's 0:12:40.000 --> 0:12:41.880 also a status symbol. It's like, all right, but I 0:12:41.920 --> 0:12:43.720 just want you to know. I just want a person 0:12:43.720 --> 0:12:46.000 to be aware of Okay, this is one of the 0:12:46.040 --> 0:12:48.160 reasons I'm buying it, because I think we try to 0:12:48.160 --> 0:12:50.800 make these rationalizations in our mind where we go, oh, no, 0:12:50.920 --> 0:12:52.520 like this is blah blah blah blah blah blah blah, 0:12:52.520 --> 0:12:55.080 and we talk ourselves into purchases that maybe we otherwise 0:12:55.200 --> 0:12:57.560 wouldn't have made if we were being honest with ourselves. 0:12:57.679 --> 0:12:58.400 Yeah, it's funny. 0:12:58.440 --> 0:13:01.480 It makes me think about how Matt always talks about 0:13:01.559 --> 0:13:05.080 using text messages. I have some friends who communicate solely 0:13:05.120 --> 0:13:08.080 be a text message, and I haven't actually talked to 0:13:08.080 --> 0:13:09.760 them and had a conversation or met with them in 0:13:09.800 --> 0:13:12.480 real life in quite a while. And Matt, the way 0:13:12.520 --> 0:13:14.400 he talks about it is like, no, it's always to 0:13:14.480 --> 0:13:17.880 facilitate in person hangs. And so if you're gonna text me, 0:13:18.040 --> 0:13:20.600 let's come up with a plan to actually make the 0:13:20.640 --> 0:13:25.160 real life hike or beer hang. Actually, you know, actually happen. 0:13:25.640 --> 0:13:28.360 Is that maybe a good way to think about it, 0:13:28.880 --> 0:13:33.160 using these digital platforms, using shot and it makes me 0:13:33.160 --> 0:13:36.320 think about buying a shirt for a bowling league is 0:13:36.440 --> 0:13:38.360 like one sort of consumption that helps you fit in 0:13:38.720 --> 0:13:41.640 versus buying that Utah jazz jersey that you mentioned and 0:13:41.720 --> 0:13:44.560 having like the three different versions but watching alone on 0:13:44.600 --> 0:13:46.520 your TV at home, but you kind of sort of 0:13:46.520 --> 0:13:48.520 feel like you fit in, but you don't really fit in. 0:13:48.800 --> 0:13:49.120 I don't know. 0:13:49.160 --> 0:13:51.040 I know that there's like like one leads to a 0:13:51.040 --> 0:13:54.200 more ultimate community, yeah, versus one that feels a little 0:13:54.240 --> 0:13:57.440 more virtual and like a little more artificial. Yeah exactly. 0:13:57.760 --> 0:13:59.880 Yeah, Yeah, I think so. And I think if it's 0:14:00.240 --> 0:14:04.920 facilitating actual interaction between people, that's great, and maybe it 0:14:04.960 --> 0:14:07.160 is online that's totally fine. But I do think that 0:14:07.800 --> 0:14:10.280 you see this a lot, you see I think where 0:14:10.320 --> 0:14:12.760 it gets a little weird is when you see corporations 0:14:12.800 --> 0:14:17.480 sort of use this as a means to get people 0:14:17.559 --> 0:14:19.400 to buy so a lot of times today, you know, 0:14:19.480 --> 0:14:21.880 certain brands have become almost a sort of religion where 0:14:21.880 --> 0:14:25.280 people buy into them because they symbolize some other social 0:14:25.320 --> 0:14:27.320 thing that they're trying to claim, yet they're not actually 0:14:27.320 --> 0:14:30.480 doing anything social behind that behind that purchase. 0:14:30.600 --> 0:14:32.440 That's right. Okay, So I guess while we're kind of 0:14:32.440 --> 0:14:35.160 talking about buying stuff on the shopping front, like there's 0:14:35.200 --> 0:14:37.640 research saying that, like with a website, it's got one 0:14:37.680 --> 0:14:41.920 of those like stupid discount wheels that you spend like that, 0:14:41.960 --> 0:14:45.040 folks end up spending more money. There are just some 0:14:45.080 --> 0:14:48.480 of these different types of ways that were incentivized to 0:14:49.000 --> 0:14:51.960 be parted with our dollars. How have you seen that 0:14:51.960 --> 0:14:53.520 play out in some of the research that you've looked at. 0:14:53.760 --> 0:14:56.240 Yeah, so I got so I live in Vegas, and 0:14:56.280 --> 0:15:01.720 I got really interested in slot machines because this is 0:15:01.760 --> 0:15:04.280 sort of the extreme end of people who just can't 0:15:04.280 --> 0:15:07.120 seem to get enough. Right, So, Las Vegas, there are 0:15:07.120 --> 0:15:09.880 slot machines everywhere and people play them around the clock. 0:15:09.960 --> 0:15:12.720 Like I can go fill up my car with gas 0:15:12.720 --> 0:15:14.800 and go into pay and there's slot machines in the 0:15:14.800 --> 0:15:17.280 gas station. There's people playing them around the clock, and 0:15:17.320 --> 0:15:19.280 you're just like, this doesn't this doesn't make any sense. 0:15:19.720 --> 0:15:22.240 So long story short is that I start this, you know, 0:15:22.360 --> 0:15:26.920 deep dive investigation into slot machines, and I end up 0:15:26.960 --> 0:15:29.960 at this laboratory that is on the edge of town 0:15:29.960 --> 0:15:32.440 in Las Vegas. But it is a sort of casino 0:15:32.560 --> 0:15:36.120 laboratory hybrid. So it's this fully working, brand new casino, 0:15:36.680 --> 0:15:40.120 but it is funded by not only the gambling industry 0:15:40.200 --> 0:15:43.320 but also big tech, and it's used to figure out 0:15:43.400 --> 0:15:46.560 what gets humans to gamble more, to buy more, to 0:15:46.600 --> 0:15:49.440 do all these different behaviors. And while I'm there, I 0:15:49.520 --> 0:15:51.600 end up talking to this guy who's a slot machine designer, 0:15:52.000 --> 0:15:53.680 and he tells me about this thing that I call 0:15:53.760 --> 0:15:56.360 the scarcity loop. And it's basically this three part behavior 0:15:56.400 --> 0:15:58.960 loop that is really good at pushing people out of moderation. 0:16:00.040 --> 0:16:02.400 So it's got three parts. It's got opportunity, it's got 0:16:02.480 --> 0:16:06.400 unpredictable rewards, and it's got quick repeatability. So one, you 0:16:06.440 --> 0:16:08.800 have an opportunity to get something of value that will 0:16:08.800 --> 0:16:12.360 improve your life. Two unpredictable rewards, you know when you 0:16:12.400 --> 0:16:13.880 will get that. You know you'll get that thing of 0:16:13.960 --> 0:16:16.600 value at some point, but you aren't entirely sure when, 0:16:16.640 --> 0:16:18.720 and you don't know how valuable it's gonna be. And 0:16:18.760 --> 0:16:21.720 then three quick repeatability. You can immediately repeat the behavior 0:16:21.760 --> 0:16:23.600 to try and get the rewarding thing over and over 0:16:23.640 --> 0:16:25.240 and over. So if you think of a slot machine. 0:16:25.280 --> 0:16:28.120 It's like you can win some money, you play a game. 0:16:28.160 --> 0:16:30.360 You're not sure on any given game if you're gonna lose, 0:16:30.360 --> 0:16:32.000 if you're gonna win a little, or if you're gonna 0:16:32.000 --> 0:16:34.120 win a lot, but then you can repeat that game 0:16:34.160 --> 0:16:37.880 over and over and over and over. Now, the reason 0:16:37.880 --> 0:16:41.000 why this is important is because this exact same architecture 0:16:41.040 --> 0:16:43.880 that's in the slot machine is also being put into 0:16:44.000 --> 0:16:49.200 all sorts of different products and services and media stuff today. 0:16:49.240 --> 0:16:53.400 So it's really what makes social media work. It's being 0:16:53.400 --> 0:16:56.680 put into some personal finance apps, it's what makes dating 0:16:56.760 --> 0:17:00.880 apps work. So well, there's just element elements of it 0:17:01.120 --> 0:17:05.199 all over our lives right now and giving people those 0:17:05.320 --> 0:17:08.719 unpredictable rewards. To bring it back to your question, so 0:17:08.760 --> 0:17:10.879 when you put a wheel in front of someone with 0:17:10.920 --> 0:17:13.960 a discount and they spend that wheel, there's this moment 0:17:14.000 --> 0:17:15.639 of suspense where they're not sure if they're going to 0:17:15.640 --> 0:17:17.480 get the big discount, the little discount or what. And 0:17:17.520 --> 0:17:21.240 when that lands, that's exciting and that tends to compel behavior. 0:17:21.320 --> 0:17:22.200 So you see a. 0:17:22.680 --> 0:17:24.440 Six even if it's just ten percent off. 0:17:24.600 --> 0:17:27.040 You know, even if it's ten percent off, and you 0:17:27.119 --> 0:17:32.679 see a sixfold increase in conversion rates when companies put 0:17:32.920 --> 0:17:36.440 the gambling wheel on their websites to sell something. 0:17:36.840 --> 0:17:38.840 Yeah. What's interesting too, is you spend a lot of 0:17:38.840 --> 0:17:41.960 time in your book talking about like dopamine and how 0:17:42.000 --> 0:17:45.200 oftentimes that is confused with like, oh, dopamine, it's the 0:17:45.280 --> 0:17:48.280 feel good chemical. But you clarify and I feel like 0:17:48.280 --> 0:17:50.600 more research has been coming out recently that's talking about 0:17:50.600 --> 0:17:54.719 how no, dopamine is the anticipation drug. Like it's it's 0:17:54.760 --> 0:17:57.480 the chemical that's released as we are pursuing something or 0:17:57.520 --> 0:18:01.680 as we are anticipating something, and oftentimes it's it's almost 0:18:01.760 --> 0:18:04.879 like the chase, you know, being better than the reward. 0:18:04.920 --> 0:18:08.000 Perhaps that that oftentimes we're so addicted to. Is that 0:18:08.040 --> 0:18:08.639 what we're seeing. 0:18:08.920 --> 0:18:12.160 Yeah, So there's there's different systems of the brain. Basically, 0:18:12.160 --> 0:18:15.679 there's the liking system, which is a system that is 0:18:15.720 --> 0:18:18.000 different than dopamine, but that is what actually gives you 0:18:18.040 --> 0:18:20.480 the pleasure. And then there's the wanting system, and this 0:18:20.640 --> 0:18:25.080 is what dopamine is involved in. So dopamine basically just 0:18:25.160 --> 0:18:29.000 helps you pursue the pleasurable thing. And it's also somewhat 0:18:29.000 --> 0:18:32.119 complicated because dopamine is involved in all these different processes 0:18:32.119 --> 0:18:35.680 in the body, So things can get kind of oversimplified 0:18:35.680 --> 0:18:37.600 to just like dopamine made me do it. It's like, 0:18:38.320 --> 0:18:40.600 not really, it was just kind of there, you know. 0:18:40.800 --> 0:18:44.400 Yeah, So you mentioned the scarcity loop, and you talked 0:18:44.400 --> 0:18:47.679 about gambling, and you mentioned how all these other sorts 0:18:47.680 --> 0:18:50.640 of things in our in our society are built kind 0:18:50.680 --> 0:18:55.439 of based on this some of these same wiring to 0:18:55.520 --> 0:18:57.359 try to get us to do things that might not 0:18:57.440 --> 0:19:00.000 be in our own best interest. And makes me think 0:19:00.080 --> 0:19:05.480 of an app like robin Hood, which is great democratization 0:19:05.520 --> 0:19:08.960 of investing for all, except for this potentially fatal flaw 0:19:09.080 --> 0:19:12.239 that causes people to invest their money or gamble their 0:19:12.240 --> 0:19:15.119 money thinking they're investing. It also makes you think of 0:19:15.160 --> 0:19:17.159 sports gambling. Do you have any thoughts on that? Like 0:19:17.200 --> 0:19:20.560 it's it certainly seems like the rise of sports gambling. 0:19:20.600 --> 0:19:24.480 And there's one thing about going and playing at a machine, 0:19:25.320 --> 0:19:27.119 even at a gas station to where you live or 0:19:27.119 --> 0:19:30.000