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Speaker 1: Welcome to How to Money.

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Speaker 2: I'm Joel and I am Matt and today we're talking

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Speaker 2: overcoming your Scarcity Brain with Michael Easter.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that's right. We are joined by Michael Easter. So

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Speaker 1: he's the author of Scarcity Brain, and we are pumped

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Speaker 1: to have him on the podcast today. And so we're

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Speaker 1: talking about scarcity, right, And even though we know what

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Speaker 1: the word means, scarcity is likely a concept that a

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Speaker 1: few folks listening to this podcast have much experience with,

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Speaker 1: at the very least in our quite developed country. We

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Speaker 1: have enough food, we have enough shelter and clothing on

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Speaker 1: hand that the vast majority of folks haven't felt the

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Speaker 1: true impacts of real scarcity. And in fact, most of

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Speaker 1: us have more than we need of all of those things,

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Speaker 1: plus the countless cardboard boxes of stuff that we can

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Speaker 1: also purchase to fill in any remaining containers and closets

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Speaker 1: that aren't already bursting up the seams. But we are

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Speaker 1: talking with Michael, and he has traveled the world. He's

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Speaker 1: observed tribes and the jungles of Bolivia. He studied addiction

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Speaker 1: and bombed out hotels in Baghdad. He's spoken with the

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Speaker 1: top researchers of psychology in order to understand the human mind,

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Speaker 1: and we're gonna be talking about how it is that

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Speaker 1: we can shake some bad habits in order to live

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Speaker 1: more fulfilling lives, and hopefully we'll have some great takeaways

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Speaker 1: on how it is that we can view and pursue

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Speaker 1: money in a more satisfying way as well. Michael, thank

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Speaker 1: you so much for joining us today on the podcast.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, thanks for having me. Guys. This should be fun.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, we're looking forward to it, Michael. The first question

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Speaker 2: we ask anybody who comes on the show is and

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Speaker 2: it reveals a little bit about them. But, like Matt

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Speaker 2: and I, we like to save and invest money for

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Speaker 2: the future, but we also like to spend money in

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Speaker 2: the here and now on things that matter to us.

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Speaker 2: Craft beer is one of those, and so we always

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Speaker 2: like to ask our guests what's their craft to beer equivalent?

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Speaker 2: What are they spending money on intentionally, maybe more so

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Speaker 2: than most people would think is wise while they're doing

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Speaker 2: the right thing with their money too.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I would say my most obscene purchase is probably

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Speaker 3: a nice watch. Now, I will say it's because one

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Speaker 3: I just like well made watches, kind of a watchdork.

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Speaker 3: But two, I also rationalize it as a business expense

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Speaker 3: because in some of the places I travel for my work,

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Speaker 3: having a nice bargaining chip if you find yourself in

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Speaker 3: a pickle is a good thing. And certain certain brands

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Speaker 3: it's like, I mean, they'll that'll get you out of

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Speaker 3: a pickle pretty quick if you're like, hey, I'll trade

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Speaker 3: you my watch for X y Z. So that's how

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Speaker 3: I rationalize it.

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Speaker 1: Okay, it's so funny.

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Speaker 2: Matt just stumbled upon at a bar recently, a watch

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Speaker 2: club and I.

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Speaker 1: Swear local restaurants, so it's called red bar. Do you

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Speaker 1: have one of those one of those clubs over there?

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Speaker 3: Well maybe I don't. I nothing that I know of.

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Speaker 2: Okay, but if Matt's going to get into any hobby,

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Speaker 2: I'm predicting it's going to be fancy watches.

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Speaker 3: So I would I would. I would tell you to

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Speaker 3: avoid it. You'll save a lot of money.

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Speaker 1: I do feel like I am resisting. Like Joel talked

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Speaker 1: me into getting this garment, which actually maybe we'll talk

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Speaker 1: about this later on as far as technology and gamification,

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Speaker 1: but they were on sale at Costco, and I have

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Speaker 1: been pretty happy with not only the time it keeps,

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Speaker 1: but also some of the health data, the stats that

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Speaker 1: it feeds me. It's amazing how much it gives you

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Speaker 1: for one hundred and fifty bucks. Yes, yes, say that

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Speaker 1: I'm trying to avoid the chronographs, actual fancy watches. But Michael,

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Speaker 1: I feel like now is as good a time as

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Speaker 1: ever to talk about habits here towards the beginning of

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Speaker 1: the year. But you say that this is a quote,

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Speaker 1: it doesn't matter how much gas that we give our

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Speaker 1: good new habits if we don't resolve our bad ones,

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Speaker 1: we still have our foot on the break. Talk to

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Speaker 1: us about what you mean by that and why you're

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Speaker 1: kind of obsessed with individual human behavior that's actually in

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Speaker 1: our own worst interest.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. Well, I mean it's rather simple that we kind

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Speaker 3: of live in this world where there's all the information

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Speaker 3: about all these things we should do. I mean, I'm

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Speaker 3: kind of more in the health wellness psychology space, and

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Speaker 3: you know, you see, it's like adopt this new specific

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Speaker 3: exercise routine, add this food to your thing. We're always

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Speaker 3: trying to add the next new good habit. But when

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Speaker 3: you look at what actually moves the ball farthest downfield

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Speaker 3: for people in terms of improving their life, improving their

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Speaker 3: well being. I would imagine the exact same thing follows

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Speaker 3: for finances. It's to stop doing the stuff that hurts

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Speaker 3: you most. Yeah, so it's to cut out the foods

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Speaker 3: that are your triggers and are leading you to gain weight.

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Speaker 3: It's to stop making that purchase that is putting a

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Speaker 3: massive dent in your finances. Usually, all things equal, taking

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Speaker 3: away bad habits is going to move the ball a

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Speaker 3: lot farther downfield than is adding good, new, shiny habits.

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Speaker 3: Because if you are giving gas to those good new

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Speaker 3: habits but you still have your bad ones, it's like

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Speaker 3: you just got the car and with the emergency breake on.

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Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, and you're just like reving the engine. You're

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Speaker 2: not going anywhere. You're doing a lot of damage. At

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Speaker 2: the same time, give me the elevator pitch for your book,

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Speaker 2: Scarcely Brain, Like, what is it that you were trying

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Speaker 2: to accomplish with this one? Because you've I mean, I

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Speaker 2: was telling you before we start recording, I read your

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Speaker 2: book The Comfort Crisis before I read this one. Talk

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Speaker 2: to me about Scarcly Brain and what made you cause

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Speaker 2: what caused you to write it?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, so the underlying question of that book is,

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Speaker 3: you know, everyone knows that everything is fine in moderation,

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Speaker 3: and yet everyone sucks at moderation. So and so why

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Speaker 3: is that right? And what is it that we can't

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Speaker 3: seem to moderate? And when you look at it, the

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Speaker 3: behaviors that people have trouble with is they usually fall

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Speaker 3: into a handful of silos like eating too much food,

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Speaker 3: buying too much stuff, information, binges online, etcetera, etcetera, etcetera.

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Speaker 3: And these are all behaviors that in the past would

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Speaker 3: have helped us survive. So a lot of my work

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Speaker 3: it takes in evolutionary lens in our modern problems. So

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Speaker 3: if you think about all the things we crave today,

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Speaker 3: usually in the past they were scarce, were hard to find,

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Speaker 3: and if you would have sort of overdone them, that

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Speaker 3: would have given you a survival advantage. But in today's world,

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Speaker 3: where we have an overload of information, where we have

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Speaker 3: an overload of food, where we have Amazon Prime and

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Speaker 3: a billion items that we could buy and get in

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Speaker 3: twenty four hours all at our fingertips, that is not

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Speaker 3: always so good for us. So we tend to we

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Speaker 3: tend to overdo these things in a world where it

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Speaker 3: ultimately Backfuyers.

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Speaker 1: Talk to us about scarcity, Ques, Michael, because you say

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Speaker 1: that they can be they can be big, but they

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Speaker 1: can also be small and subtle, you know, even down

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Speaker 1: to our neighbors, like buying a new car. You know,

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Speaker 1: is that keeping up with the joneses like a queue

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Speaker 1: in this case, you know, just the felt need to

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Speaker 1: not lag behind others, our neighbors, our friends, even if

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Speaker 1: it ends up meaning that we end up going down

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Speaker 1: the path of falling into consumer debt. Talk to us

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Speaker 1: a little bit about scarcity, Ques.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, So scarcity queue is a piece of information in

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Speaker 3: our environment and we encounter in our environment that makes

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Speaker 3: us feel as if the resources that we need to

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Speaker 3: sort of thrive and survive are scarce. So I'll give

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Speaker 3: the example of, you know, neighbor buys a fancy new car.

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Speaker 3: What tends to happen is that this is a this

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Speaker 3: is a sort of threat to our status almost So

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Speaker 3: the scarcity que is that we don't have enough status

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Speaker 3: because now people buy cars, yes, to get from point

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Speaker 3: A to point B, but also because cars would become

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Speaker 3: a sort of status symbol. And it can be something

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Speaker 3: as simple as that. A good big example that I

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Speaker 3: think everyone can identify with would be the pandemic. So

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Speaker 3: when the pandemic first set in, you know, all of

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Speaker 3: a sudden, everyone goes, oh, I'm not going to have

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Speaker 3: enough food, I'm not going to have enough toilet paper,

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Speaker 3: I'm not going to have enough xyz. Right, this big

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Speaker 3: scarcity que. So what does everyone do. They go to

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Speaker 3: the grocery stores. They brawl in the aisle, they buy

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Speaker 3: all kinds of food that they're never going to eat. Right,

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Speaker 3: It's like, oh, we've got to have one hundred and

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Speaker 3: tens of spam. Definitely throw that.

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Speaker 2: The twenty five pound bag of rice from Costco came

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Speaker 2: and clutch Michael.

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Speaker 3: I believe it. But they don't have to beat that

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Speaker 3: big either. I mean, there's this it's really interesting research

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Speaker 3: from Vanderbilt that found that even when people have a

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Speaker 3: scarcity queue, like running out of ink and a pen

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Speaker 3: something as simple as that, they will make decisions that

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Speaker 3: sort of let's show hoarding behavior. So they'll be like, Okay,

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Speaker 3: I need multiple pens, and like they start kind of

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Speaker 3: freaking out inside. And so I think that you see this,

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Speaker 3: this is basically an evolutionary survival thing we have right

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Speaker 3: in the past. If you had this cue that like,

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Speaker 3: oh maybe I'm not going to have enough food to survive.

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Speaker 3: Oh no, it would totally make sense to go out

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Speaker 3: and try and hoard as much food as possible. But

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Speaker 3: today it's like food is never really that's scary exactly right.

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Speaker 3: I mean we throw out about a third of the

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Speaker 3: food that we produce in this country, and so and

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Speaker 3: this and this all obviously applies to a lot of

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Speaker 3: different areas in our lives, and I think it ultimately

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Speaker 3: leads people to make decisions that don't exactly make sense

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Speaker 3: in the context of today.

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Speaker 2: So how do we connect our brains to kind of

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Speaker 2: the scarcity queue? Maybe that's tapping into some sort of

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Speaker 2: primal urge that might cause us to do something that's

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Speaker 2: not in our best interest because times have changed. And

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Speaker 2: guess what, Like I don't necessarily need to go buy

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Speaker 2: a twelve pack of pens just because I ran out

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Speaker 2: of ink in the one and actually I probably have

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Speaker 2: three more in the drawer somewhere that I just haven't

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Speaker 2: looked for yet. Is there a way to kind of

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Speaker 2: overcome that scarcity Q that kind of gets brought to

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Speaker 2: your attention, but it's almost like subconscious Yeah.

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Speaker 3: I think we need pretty much we need to use

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Speaker 3: full heuristics. So I'll give you an example with possessions.

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Speaker 3: So there are effectively four reasons why people buy stuff.

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Speaker 3: The first is because stuff is a tool, Right, you

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Speaker 3: use tools to accomplish something. That's how things have pretty

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Speaker 3: much always been. But you can also buy stuff, like

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Speaker 3: I mentioned before, for status. You buy it because it

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Speaker 3: elevates you over someone else in the social hierarchy. The

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Speaker 3: third reason is because possessions can help us feel belonging. So,

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Speaker 3: for example, you buy a Utah jazz jersey because you're

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Speaker 3: a Utah jazz fan and you want to identify with

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Speaker 3: that the jaz fans, Right, it's part of this like

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Speaker 3: collective thing. And then fourth is boredom. So you see

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Speaker 3: that when people get bored, we go looking for escapes

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Speaker 3: from it, and today we usually go on our phones.

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Speaker 3: And what we look at on our phones, I mean

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Speaker 3: we're seeing advertisement after advertisement, and it's never been easier

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Speaker 3: before to click that ad, click through to the buy button,

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Speaker 3: and then buy this thing that you go, wait, did

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Speaker 3: I really need that? So in the context of this,

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Speaker 3: I think you need to when you're sort of feeling

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Speaker 3: like you want to say, make a purchase, you need

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Speaker 3: to ask yourself what am I buying this for? Is

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Speaker 3: it for status? Is it because I want to feel

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Speaker 3: some sort of belonging. Can I get that elsewhere? Or

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Speaker 3: am I just bored? So I run things through the

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Speaker 3: heuristic of gear not stuff. So gear gears is possessions

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Speaker 3: that we use to achieve a higher purpose, right, We're

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Speaker 3: using them to accomplish some bigger thing that gives us

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Speaker 3: deeper meaning, whereas everything else stuff is sort of like, yeah,

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Speaker 3: I'm going to buy this brand because I want to

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Speaker 3: look cooler than my neighbor, or I want to do

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Speaker 3: this because I want to feel some belonging with this

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Speaker 3: random you know, corporation, whatever it might be, or I'm

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Speaker 3: just bored. And so I think trying to figure out

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Speaker 3: get to the root of why you're doing what you're

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Speaker 3: what you do is the key to starting to unpack

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Speaker 3: larger behavior changes.

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Speaker 1: So as you kind of run a purchase through that

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Speaker 1: set of criteria, are some of those do you think

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Speaker 1: inherently better than the others? Obviously, Like when you say

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Speaker 1: something is a tool, it sounds cool, or you know,

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Speaker 1: like it's it's it sounds like justified, it sounds noble,

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Speaker 1: you're like, oh, no, I'm using this to accomplish something,

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Speaker 1: whereas obviously boredom is that sounds like a terrible reason.

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Speaker 1: But I feel so I feel like the two in

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Speaker 1: the middle, right, status and belonging, I feel like those

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Speaker 1: are a little squishier. I feel like, in my mind,

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Speaker 1: those are a little more gray. And would you push

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Speaker 1: back against anybody who would be critical of somebody for

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Speaker 1: buying something in order to fit in with a group,

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Speaker 1: you know, for that belonging, or even to signal to

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Speaker 1: others that maybe they're better, right, Like, that's basically that

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Speaker 1: that conspicuous consumption that you're talking about, or that's what

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Speaker 1: luxury goods are, all right, almost totally.

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Speaker 3: So I think that my I'm definitely not here to

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Speaker 3: pass any value judgments. I would rather just people be

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Speaker 3: aware of why. Okay, So you know, I always like

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Speaker 3: to say, you know, for example, let's take behaviors of

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Speaker 3: using your phone too much. It's like, I don't care

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Speaker 3: if someone wants to spend nine hours a day on Instagram.

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Speaker 3: I really don't care. But what I want people to

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Speaker 3: be able to do is make the conscious decision about

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Speaker 3: them doing that, because often today we do things without

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Speaker 3: really understanding what the underlying motivation is. So if you

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Speaker 3: want to buy that, you know, whatever it is, certain,

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Speaker 3: I'll take myself that certain watch brand. Yeah, because it's

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Speaker 3: also a status symbol. It's like, all right, but I

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Speaker 3: just want you to know. I just want a person

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Speaker 3: to be aware of Okay, this is one of the

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Speaker 3: reasons I'm buying it, because I think we try to

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Speaker 3: make these rationalizations in our mind where we go, oh, no,

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Speaker 3: like this is blah blah blah blah blah blah blah,

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Speaker 3: and we talk ourselves into purchases that maybe we otherwise

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Speaker 3: wouldn't have made if we were being honest with ourselves.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's funny.

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Speaker 2: It makes me think about how Matt always talks about

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Speaker 2: using text messages. I have some friends who communicate solely

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Speaker 2: be a text message, and I haven't actually talked to

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Speaker 2: them and had a conversation or met with them in

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Speaker 2: real life in quite a while. And Matt, the way

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Speaker 2: he talks about it is like, no, it's always to

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Speaker 2: facilitate in person hangs. And so if you're gonna text me,

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Speaker 2: let's come up with a plan to actually make the

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Speaker 2: real life hike or beer hang. Actually, you know, actually happen.

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Speaker 2: Is that maybe a good way to think about it,

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Speaker 2: using these digital platforms, using shot and it makes me

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Speaker 2: think about buying a shirt for a bowling league is

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Speaker 2: like one sort of consumption that helps you fit in

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Speaker 2: versus buying that Utah jazz jersey that you mentioned and

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Speaker 2: having like the three different versions but watching alone on

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Speaker 2: your TV at home, but you kind of sort of

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Speaker 2: feel like you fit in, but you don't really fit in.

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Speaker 3: I don't know.

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Speaker 1: I know that there's like like one leads to a

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Speaker 1: more ultimate community, yeah, versus one that feels a little

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Speaker 1: more virtual and like a little more artificial. Yeah exactly.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, Yeah, I think so. And I think if it's

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Speaker 3: facilitating actual interaction between people, that's great, and maybe it

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Speaker 3: is online that's totally fine. But I do think that

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Speaker 3: you see this a lot, you see I think where

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Speaker 3: it gets a little weird is when you see corporations

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Speaker 3: sort of use this as a means to get people

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Speaker 3: to buy so a lot of times today, you know,

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Speaker 3: certain brands have become almost a sort of religion where

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Speaker 3: people buy into them because they symbolize some other social

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Speaker 3: thing that they're trying to claim, yet they're not actually

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Speaker 3: doing anything social behind that behind that purchase.

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Speaker 1: That's right. Okay, So I guess while we're kind of

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Speaker 1: talking about buying stuff on the shopping front, like there's

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Speaker 1: research saying that, like with a website, it's got one

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Speaker 1: of those like stupid discount wheels that you spend like that,

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Speaker 1: folks end up spending more money. There are just some

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Speaker 1: of these different types of ways that were incentivized to

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Speaker 1: be parted with our dollars. How have you seen that

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Speaker 1: play out in some of the research that you've looked at.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, so I got so I live in Vegas, and

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Speaker 3: I got really interested in slot machines because this is

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Speaker 3: sort of the extreme end of people who just can't

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Speaker 3: seem to get enough. Right, So, Las Vegas, there are

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Speaker 3: slot machines everywhere and people play them around the clock.

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Speaker 3: Like I can go fill up my car with gas

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Speaker 3: and go into pay and there's slot machines in the

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Speaker 3: gas station. There's people playing them around the clock, and

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Speaker 3: you're just like, this doesn't this doesn't make any sense.

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Speaker 3: So long story short is that I start this, you know,

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Speaker 3: deep dive investigation into slot machines, and I end up

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Speaker 3: at this laboratory that is on the edge of town

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Speaker 3: in Las Vegas. But it is a sort of casino

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Speaker 3: laboratory hybrid. So it's this fully working, brand new casino,

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Speaker 3: but it is funded by not only the gambling industry

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Speaker 3: but also big tech, and it's used to figure out

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Speaker 3: what gets humans to gamble more, to buy more, to

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Speaker 3: do all these different behaviors. And while I'm there, I

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Speaker 3: end up talking to this guy who's a slot machine designer,

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Speaker 3: and he tells me about this thing that I call

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Speaker 3: the scarcity loop. And it's basically this three part behavior

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Speaker 3: loop that is really good at pushing people out of moderation.

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Speaker 3: So it's got three parts. It's got opportunity, it's got

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Speaker 3: unpredictable rewards, and it's got quick repeatability. So one, you

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Speaker 3: have an opportunity to get something of value that will

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Speaker 3: improve your life. Two unpredictable rewards, you know when you

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Speaker 3: will get that. You know you'll get that thing of

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Speaker 3: value at some point, but you aren't entirely sure when,

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Speaker 3: and you don't know how valuable it's gonna be. And

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Speaker 3: then three quick repeatability. You can immediately repeat the behavior

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Speaker 3: to try and get the rewarding thing over and over

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Speaker 3: and over. So if you think of a slot machine.

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Speaker 3: It's like you can win some money, you play a game.

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Speaker 3: You're not sure on any given game if you're gonna lose,

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Speaker 3: if you're gonna win a little, or if you're gonna

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Speaker 3: win a lot, but then you can repeat that game

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Speaker 3: over and over and over and over. Now, the reason

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Speaker 3: why this is important is because this exact same architecture

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Speaker 3: that's in the slot machine is also being put into

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Speaker 3: all sorts of different products and services and media stuff today.

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Speaker 3: So it's really what makes social media work. It's being

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Speaker 3: put into some personal finance apps, it's what makes dating

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Speaker 3: apps work. So well, there's just element elements of it

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Speaker 3: all over our lives right now and giving people those

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Speaker 3: unpredictable rewards. To bring it back to your question, so

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Speaker 3: when you put a wheel in front of someone with

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Speaker 3: a discount and they spend that wheel, there's this moment

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Speaker 3: of suspense where they're not sure if they're going to

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Speaker 3: get the big discount, the little discount or what. And

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Speaker 3: when that lands, that's exciting and that tends to compel behavior.

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Speaker 3: So you see a.

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Speaker 1: Six even if it's just ten percent off.

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Speaker 3: You know, even if it's ten percent off, and you

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Speaker 3: see a sixfold increase in conversion rates when companies put

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Speaker 3: the gambling wheel on their websites to sell something.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. What's interesting too, is you spend a lot of

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Speaker 1: time in your book talking about like dopamine and how

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Speaker 1: oftentimes that is confused with like, oh, dopamine, it's the

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Speaker 1: feel good chemical. But you clarify and I feel like

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Speaker 1: more research has been coming out recently that's talking about

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Speaker 1: how no, dopamine is the anticipation drug. Like it's it's

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Speaker 1: the chemical that's released as we are pursuing something or

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Speaker 1: as we are anticipating something, and oftentimes it's it's almost

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Speaker 1: like the chase, you know, being better than the reward.

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Speaker 1: Perhaps that that oftentimes we're so addicted to. Is that

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Speaker 1: what we're seeing.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, So there's there's different systems of the brain. Basically,

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Speaker 3: there's the liking system, which is a system that is

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Speaker 3: different than dopamine, but that is what actually gives you

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Speaker 3: the pleasure. And then there's the wanting system, and this

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Speaker 3: is what dopamine is involved in. So dopamine basically just

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Speaker 3: helps you pursue the pleasurable thing. And it's also somewhat

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Speaker 3: complicated because dopamine is involved in all these different processes

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Speaker 3: in the body, So things can get kind of oversimplified

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Speaker 3: to just like dopamine made me do it. It's like,

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Speaker 3: not really, it was just kind of there, you know.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, So you mentioned the scarcity loop, and you talked

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Speaker 2: about gambling, and you mentioned how all these other sorts

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Speaker 2: of things in our in our society are built kind

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Speaker 2: of based on this some of these same wiring to

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Speaker 2: try to get us to do things that might not

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Speaker 2: be in our own best interest. And makes me think

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Speaker 2: of an app like robin Hood, which is great democratization

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Speaker 2: of investing for all, except for this potentially fatal flaw

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Speaker 2: that causes people to invest their money or gamble their

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Speaker 2: money thinking they're investing. It also makes you think of

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Speaker 2: sports gambling. Do you have any thoughts on that? Like

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Speaker 2: it's it certainly seems like the rise of sports gambling.

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Speaker 2: And there's one thing about going and playing at a machine,

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Speaker 2: even at a gas station to where you live or

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Speaker 2: something like that. There's something very different about that than

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Speaker 2: having it in the palm of your hands, like hyper

403
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Speaker 2: optimized and targeted to try to get people to gamble

404
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Speaker 2: away as much of their money as they possibly can.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, So I think what we're talking about here really

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Speaker 3: is the quick repeatability angle, so to your point, so

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Speaker 3: that's the third part of the loop. So with with

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Speaker 3: the slot machines, it's like the slot machine is always

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Speaker 3: going to stay in the casino. You have to physically

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Speaker 3: go to the casino in order to play the slot machine.

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Speaker 3: But with sports betting apps, you can do that at

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Speaker 3: any time for whatever reason you want. Right, And another

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Speaker 3: thing that I think is really interesting with sports betting

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Speaker 3: apps is they've further increased the quicker peatability by allowing

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Speaker 3: people to make in game bets. So through the casino

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Speaker 3: industry's eyes, one of the issues with sports betting is

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Speaker 3: that you make a bet and then there's this time

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Speaker 3: delay until the game is over. Right, So a person

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Speaker 3: could make one bet, but then there's three hours until

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Speaker 3: they might make the next bet based on whether or

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Speaker 3: not they won or lost their bet on the previous game.

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Speaker 3: So in order to shorten that interval, because speed is

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Speaker 3: exceedingly important to the casino industry, people started a lot

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Speaker 3: of the companies started allowing people to make bets on Hey,

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Speaker 3: well the team score on this play. Are they going

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Speaker 3: to score a touchdown? Is the next basket going to

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Speaker 3: be a three pointer? All these different things that happen

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Speaker 3: throughout the game, so people can make these really quick

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Speaker 3: bets over and over and over as the game evolves.

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Speaker 1: That's right. Yeah, and again sort of like you're saying earlier,

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Speaker 1: this isn't necessarily to say that, hey, all sports betting

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Speaker 1: is bad, but like you said, to be a way

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Speaker 1: where as to what it is that's going on behind

434
00:21:02,800 --> 00:21:05,520
Speaker 1: the scenes and how I mean, I feel like at

435
00:21:05,520 --> 00:21:07,639
Speaker 1: the core of what you're writing about here with your

436
00:21:07,680 --> 00:21:11,639
Speaker 1: book is that these companies are they're looking for ways

437
00:21:11,640 --> 00:21:14,399
Speaker 1: to make money, whether it's through selling product, getting you

438
00:21:14,480 --> 00:21:17,760
Speaker 1: to gamble, whatever it is, and as you found, they

439
00:21:17,800 --> 00:21:20,479
Speaker 1: are using how it is that our brains are wired

440
00:21:20,520 --> 00:21:22,560
Speaker 1: against us to cause us to continue to do that

441
00:21:22,600 --> 00:21:26,320
Speaker 1: thing whatever it is, Yeah, that they're wanting you to do.

442
00:21:26,720 --> 00:21:28,280
Speaker 1: But Michael, we've got more to get to with you.

443
00:21:28,280 --> 00:21:29,760
Speaker 1: We got plenty more questions. We'll get to all that

444
00:21:29,880 --> 00:21:38,920
Speaker 1: right after this. All right, we're back.

445
00:21:38,960 --> 00:21:42,560
Speaker 2: We're still talking about overcoming our scarcity brain with Michael Easter.

446
00:21:43,080 --> 00:21:45,760
Speaker 2: His new book is just fantastic And if you want

447
00:21:45,760 --> 00:21:48,640
Speaker 2: a little or a lot of insight on how your

448
00:21:48,640 --> 00:21:51,360
Speaker 2: own brain works and then how you can fight back

449
00:21:51,400 --> 00:21:55,040
Speaker 2: against some of the ways that advertisers and companies and

450
00:21:55,200 --> 00:21:58,800
Speaker 2: technology companies in particular are trying to hijack that. This

451
00:21:58,840 --> 00:22:02,439
Speaker 2: book is incredible informative, Michael, I want to keep talking about,

452
00:22:02,440 --> 00:22:04,520
Speaker 2: like some of the problem that in some of the

453
00:22:04,560 --> 00:22:11,600
Speaker 2: ways in which companies are ever so insiduously impacting our ability,

454
00:22:11,600 --> 00:22:15,000
Speaker 2: our desire to spend to part us from our money,

455
00:22:15,000 --> 00:22:18,040
Speaker 2: maybe that we hadn't planned on being parted from. You've

456
00:22:18,040 --> 00:22:21,640
Speaker 2: talked about some of the newer Chinese websites. There's one

457
00:22:21,640 --> 00:22:24,360
Speaker 2: called Tamu, and it's funny, Matt and I we haven't

458
00:22:24,359 --> 00:22:26,439
Speaker 2: talked about these sites a whole lot, except for to

459
00:22:26,440 --> 00:22:28,560
Speaker 2: say that some of the stuff that it seems like

460
00:22:28,600 --> 00:22:31,520
Speaker 2: there's cheaper stuff being sold on a lot of these sites.

461
00:22:31,840 --> 00:22:35,000
Speaker 2: But you call them the crystal meth of shopping, and

462
00:22:35,040 --> 00:22:36,480
Speaker 2: so I'm like, okay, cool, I feel like I need

463
00:22:36,480 --> 00:22:38,880
Speaker 2: to do a little more digging. What makes them so addictive,

464
00:22:38,880 --> 00:22:39,960
Speaker 2: what makes them so dangerous?

465
00:22:40,520 --> 00:22:47,000
Speaker 3: Yeah, they use the scarcity loop probably better than any

466
00:22:47,040 --> 00:22:51,120
Speaker 3: other sites. So it is the unpredictable rewards. So when

467
00:22:51,160 --> 00:22:54,679
Speaker 3: you log onto Tamu, unless they've changed their site for

468
00:22:54,720 --> 00:22:58,840
Speaker 3: some reason, there's immediately you can get that pop up

469
00:22:58,920 --> 00:23:00,840
Speaker 3: like I just talked about with the wheel, right, and

470
00:23:00,880 --> 00:23:03,320
Speaker 3: you spin the wheel and you learn you get some discount,

471
00:23:03,320 --> 00:23:05,919
Speaker 3: and so then it's like, oh, I've just learned that

472
00:23:06,000 --> 00:23:09,040
Speaker 3: I'm going to I'm the winner, right, And I said,

473
00:23:09,040 --> 00:23:10,880
Speaker 3: you always get the big one on TIMMU, like there's

474
00:23:10,920 --> 00:23:14,879
Speaker 3: no actual gamble here, So then you're incentivized to purchase.

475
00:23:14,920 --> 00:23:18,560
Speaker 3: But then they have all these They use scarcity cues

476
00:23:18,600 --> 00:23:21,320
Speaker 3: really well. So it's like, we only have X number

477
00:23:21,400 --> 00:23:24,159
Speaker 3: of these items left, and then there's a timer going.

478
00:23:24,240 --> 00:23:27,600
Speaker 3: So this leverages scarcity and urgency, which are two of

479
00:23:27,600 --> 00:23:29,480
Speaker 3: the best sales tools that you can use. Right, we

480
00:23:29,560 --> 00:23:31,119
Speaker 3: only have one and by the way, you got to

481
00:23:31,119 --> 00:23:34,000
Speaker 3: make a decision in the next five minutes. That'll get

482
00:23:34,040 --> 00:23:37,800
Speaker 3: someone to make a purchase, better, better than anything you

483
00:23:37,840 --> 00:23:40,320
Speaker 3: can really use. But even even Amazon uses this. So

484
00:23:40,320 --> 00:23:43,000
Speaker 3: when you go onto Amazon, if there's a short supply,

485
00:23:43,040 --> 00:23:46,080
Speaker 3: it'll say only three left or only five left right,

486
00:23:46,119 --> 00:23:49,119
Speaker 3: because that leads people, it makes people more likely to

487
00:23:49,640 --> 00:23:52,200
Speaker 3: click that buy button. I mean, there's a good Amazon

488
00:23:52,240 --> 00:23:54,840
Speaker 3: doesn't do anything on accident. They're not just being like, hey,

489
00:23:55,040 --> 00:23:59,280
Speaker 3: heads up. They know that that'll lead to people making purchases.

490
00:23:58,960 --> 00:24:01,800
Speaker 2: Probably, So it's really being shipped to an Amazon warehouse

491
00:24:01,960 --> 00:24:04,960
Speaker 2: as they as that exists on the website, but still

492
00:24:05,000 --> 00:24:07,040
Speaker 2: they want you to make you want it, to make

493
00:24:07,040 --> 00:24:08,320
Speaker 2: you feel like you got to buy it now.

494
00:24:08,520 --> 00:24:11,880
Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly. And you know with all these with all

495
00:24:11,920 --> 00:24:15,399
Speaker 3: these levers that get pulled, and you know, they get

496
00:24:15,480 --> 00:24:18,280
Speaker 3: pulled that buy all different companies for all different means

497
00:24:18,359 --> 00:24:21,000
Speaker 3: to lead us to you know, eat more food, to

498
00:24:21,080 --> 00:24:22,920
Speaker 3: lead us to gamble more, to lead us to buy more.

499
00:24:23,280 --> 00:24:27,040
Speaker 3: I don't necessarily blame the corporations. I mean, their job

500
00:24:27,119 --> 00:24:31,320
Speaker 3: is to make their job is to sell stuff, So

501
00:24:31,400 --> 00:24:33,640
Speaker 3: it really becomes up to us to figure out, Okay,

502
00:24:33,680 --> 00:24:35,720
Speaker 3: how can I interrupt this loop and how can I

503
00:24:35,760 --> 00:24:40,439
Speaker 3: take some agency here exactly to help myself, because you know,

504
00:24:40,720 --> 00:24:42,439
Speaker 3: I don't see a future where all of a sudden,

505
00:24:42,520 --> 00:24:45,560
Speaker 3: the government is regulating all these shopping websites and regulating

506
00:24:45,680 --> 00:24:48,959
Speaker 3: whether you know, food companies can make, how delicious their

507
00:24:49,000 --> 00:24:52,320
Speaker 3: food can be, and whether gambling companies can do X

508
00:24:52,400 --> 00:24:55,439
Speaker 3: y Z. I mean, gambling's pretty heavily regulated, but you

509
00:24:55,480 --> 00:24:58,320
Speaker 3: know it's always going to be there. And you know, frankly,

510
00:24:58,359 --> 00:25:03,080
Speaker 3: when you think of something like take social media, what

511
00:25:03,200 --> 00:25:07,760
Speaker 3: makes videos compelling is that they're really exciting. They leverage

512
00:25:07,800 --> 00:25:11,440
Speaker 3: on elements of the scarcity loop, and so in order

513
00:25:11,520 --> 00:25:14,120
Speaker 3: to sort of slow people down watching say, YouTube video

514
00:25:14,160 --> 00:25:17,119
Speaker 3: after YouTube video, you would need to ask the YouTube

515
00:25:17,119 --> 00:25:19,480
Speaker 3: creators to make videos that were more boring. And it's like,

516
00:25:19,520 --> 00:25:21,399
Speaker 3: do we really want to do that? No, it's like

517
00:25:21,440 --> 00:25:24,120
Speaker 3: you really need to kind of kind of figure out

518
00:25:24,119 --> 00:25:26,760
Speaker 3: some simple tactics that you can use to live better

519
00:25:26,800 --> 00:25:29,360
Speaker 3: in this kind of strange but amazing world we live

520
00:25:29,359 --> 00:25:29,640
Speaker 3: in now.

521
00:25:30,320 --> 00:25:32,320
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, So, as you're talking about YouTube, that made

522
00:25:32,359 --> 00:25:33,960
Speaker 1: me think about like one of the anecdotes you give

523
00:25:33,960 --> 00:25:36,720
Speaker 1: in your book is about a professor and he's like

524
00:25:36,720 --> 00:25:40,600
Speaker 1: an architect and he was building legos with his kid,

525
00:25:41,240 --> 00:25:44,640
Speaker 1: and the way his son went about solving the problem

526
00:25:45,320 --> 00:25:47,399
Speaker 1: was vastly different than how it was that he was

527
00:25:47,560 --> 00:25:50,120
Speaker 1: trying to solve that problem. A go ahead and share

528
00:25:50,119 --> 00:25:54,080
Speaker 1: that story with folks, but then be what is it? Well, yeah,

529
00:25:54,480 --> 00:25:57,280
Speaker 1: let's start there. Share that story because I want to

530
00:25:57,280 --> 00:26:00,439
Speaker 1: follow up with what you said about the YouTube content

531
00:26:00,480 --> 00:26:03,520
Speaker 1: creators and potentially creating less stuff and how that's not

532
00:26:03,560 --> 00:26:07,320
Speaker 1: the solution. But yeah, can you talk about specifically that

533
00:26:07,400 --> 00:26:08,600
Speaker 1: lego anecdote?

534
00:26:08,760 --> 00:26:11,520
Speaker 3: Yeah? Yeah, So this guy his name's LIGHTI Klots and

535
00:26:11,560 --> 00:26:13,920
Speaker 3: he's a professor of engineering. He's probably one of the

536
00:26:13,920 --> 00:26:17,439
Speaker 3: best engineers in the country. And he's playing legos with

537
00:26:17,480 --> 00:26:20,400
Speaker 3: his son and they're making this bridge. And once they

538
00:26:20,440 --> 00:26:22,639
Speaker 3: go to connect the bridge, they got the two pillars,

539
00:26:22,680 --> 00:26:24,920
Speaker 3: and then they connect the span to the two pillars,

540
00:26:25,520 --> 00:26:28,520
Speaker 3: they find that the bridge is wonky because they have

541
00:26:28,600 --> 00:26:31,199
Speaker 3: one pillar that is taller than the other pillar. So

542
00:26:31,240 --> 00:26:33,720
Speaker 3: this thing is the span is in an angle. So,

543
00:26:34,440 --> 00:26:36,440
Speaker 3: you know, mister engineer goes, all right, I mean, we

544
00:26:36,720 --> 00:26:38,560
Speaker 3: can solve this problem. He turns around and he starts

545
00:26:38,640 --> 00:26:41,040
Speaker 3: rifling through the lego bucket to find the you know,

546
00:26:41,080 --> 00:26:43,680
Speaker 3: the blocks he needs in order to elevate the second span.

547
00:26:44,680 --> 00:26:47,359
Speaker 3: But when he turns back with the legos, he realizes

548
00:26:47,480 --> 00:26:50,720
Speaker 3: that his son has done something really interesting, and that's

549
00:26:50,760 --> 00:26:54,119
Speaker 3: that he solved the problem by simply removing blocks from

550
00:26:54,160 --> 00:26:58,920
Speaker 3: the taller span. Now, this solution did not occur to

551
00:26:59,000 --> 00:27:02,120
Speaker 3: him in the least, like, not at all. He immediately went, oh,

552
00:27:02,119 --> 00:27:04,680
Speaker 3: we need to add more resources to solve this problem.

553
00:27:05,359 --> 00:27:08,919
Speaker 3: So he wonders, you know, I am I a weirdo?

554
00:27:09,160 --> 00:27:12,320
Speaker 3: Am I unique? What he does is he gets the

555
00:27:12,640 --> 00:27:15,399
Speaker 3: bridge and he makes it again, so it's kind of

556
00:27:15,440 --> 00:27:18,320
Speaker 3: wonky with the taller and shorter pillar. And he starts

557
00:27:18,359 --> 00:27:22,000
Speaker 3: taking this around UVA campus and when he has meetings

558
00:27:22,000 --> 00:27:25,199
Speaker 3: with other professors and with grad students, he'll pull out

559
00:27:25,240 --> 00:27:26,760
Speaker 3: the bridge and he'll say, all right, fix this, and

560
00:27:26,800 --> 00:27:29,320
Speaker 3: he'll have you know, legos on the table. Every single

561
00:27:29,359 --> 00:27:32,840
Speaker 3: person tries to solve the problem by adding more legos,

562
00:27:33,280 --> 00:27:37,119
Speaker 3: by adding more resources, even though taking away legos is

563
00:27:37,119 --> 00:27:39,680
Speaker 3: a better solution because then you have more resources. Right.

564
00:27:40,359 --> 00:27:43,560
Speaker 3: So he long story short is this leads him to

565
00:27:43,840 --> 00:27:47,080
Speaker 3: study this phenomenon, set up a bunch of different experiments,

566
00:27:47,600 --> 00:27:51,119
Speaker 3: and he finds that basically people are programmed to add,

567
00:27:51,520 --> 00:27:55,000
Speaker 3: so when we try to solve problems, we typically throw

568
00:27:55,080 --> 00:27:59,600
Speaker 3: resources at them if we can, even when subtraction is

569
00:27:59,640 --> 00:28:02,919
Speaker 3: the better. So it's not that adding or subtracting is

570
00:28:02,960 --> 00:28:06,520
Speaker 3: any better. But if we aren't even considering subtraction, like,

571
00:28:06,840 --> 00:28:08,800
Speaker 3: that's not good. Right. We want to have all our

572
00:28:08,800 --> 00:28:11,480
Speaker 3: options on the table, and yet we tend to add,

573
00:28:11,520 --> 00:28:13,360
Speaker 3: and as we get more and more resources, we tend

574
00:28:13,440 --> 00:28:16,080
Speaker 3: to just pile on and pile on and pile on.

575
00:28:16,160 --> 00:28:17,840
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, And that that kind of alludes to the

576
00:28:17,880 --> 00:28:19,560
Speaker 1: scarcity to bring So the reason I wanted you to

577
00:28:19,560 --> 00:28:22,320
Speaker 1: share that is like, as you mentioned the YouTube creators,

578
00:28:22,440 --> 00:28:29,520
Speaker 1: I guess I started to internally wrestle with man. Yes, institutions, creatives, publishers, writers,

579
00:28:29,960 --> 00:28:32,600
Speaker 1: We're not necessarily going to slow down in this stuff

580
00:28:32,600 --> 00:28:34,600
Speaker 1: that is created out there in the world. And so

581
00:28:34,760 --> 00:28:38,760
Speaker 1: on one hand, you have creatives, and you've got companies

582
00:28:38,800 --> 00:28:42,400
Speaker 1: and institutions that are going to continue to produce. But

583
00:28:42,480 --> 00:28:44,640
Speaker 1: on the other hand, we have just as much time

584
00:28:45,000 --> 00:28:47,400
Speaker 1: in our limited days, like we have just as much money.

585
00:28:47,800 --> 00:28:49,840
Speaker 1: It's almost like, in one hand, things are going to

586
00:28:49,880 --> 00:28:54,720
Speaker 1: continue to exponentially caliper in quantity. But it means I

587
00:28:54,760 --> 00:28:57,800
Speaker 1: guess that on an individual level, it's more important than

588
00:28:57,800 --> 00:29:00,400
Speaker 1: ever for us to figure out how it is that

589
00:29:00,440 --> 00:29:03,600
Speaker 1: we can say no to a lot of that stuff.

590
00:29:03,640 --> 00:29:05,320
Speaker 1: Would you say that that's true, how we can say

591
00:29:05,360 --> 00:29:09,480
Speaker 1: no to just the quantities of solutions at our fingertips

592
00:29:09,480 --> 00:29:14,040
Speaker 1: are food or media, right, like the information you spend

593
00:29:14,080 --> 00:29:16,000
Speaker 1: a chapter talking about that there's so much that's at

594
00:29:16,000 --> 00:29:18,560
Speaker 1: our fingertips. It seems like it's more important than ever

595
00:29:18,560 --> 00:29:21,640
Speaker 1: for us to figure out how to regulate heart take.

596
00:29:22,120 --> 00:29:24,880
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, totally, And I mean I think one great

597
00:29:24,920 --> 00:29:28,800
Speaker 3: way to do this is, so I told you about

598
00:29:28,800 --> 00:29:33,360
Speaker 3: the scarcity loop. If you interrupt or change or remove

599
00:29:33,520 --> 00:29:36,200
Speaker 3: any of the three parts, that tends to reduce the

600
00:29:36,240 --> 00:29:39,280
Speaker 3: frequency that you will do a behavior. So I'll give

601
00:29:39,320 --> 00:29:43,760
Speaker 3: you a couple examples. Availability, so opportunity. If you can

602
00:29:43,800 --> 00:29:46,960
Speaker 3: just take away the opportunity to do something, that will

603
00:29:47,000 --> 00:29:48,960
Speaker 3: reduce the amount of time to do it. So a

604
00:29:49,000 --> 00:29:51,960
Speaker 3: simple rule of saying, look, I'm only going to make

605
00:29:52,160 --> 00:29:55,840
Speaker 3: purchases in person because that's a huge barrier to entry,

606
00:29:56,440 --> 00:29:58,920
Speaker 3: or saying like I have a problem with this young food.

607
00:29:59,240 --> 00:30:01,360
Speaker 3: It's so simple, but it's like, well, don't keep it

608
00:30:01,400 --> 00:30:08,000
Speaker 3: in the house, right. You can change how rewarding something is.

609
00:30:08,040 --> 00:30:11,840
Speaker 3: You can change the unpredictable rewards. So there's some fascinating

610
00:30:11,880 --> 00:30:14,680
Speaker 3: research on cell phone use, and one of the reasons

611
00:30:14,680 --> 00:30:18,920
Speaker 3: that cell phones are so interesting and compelling is the

612
00:30:19,280 --> 00:30:22,480
Speaker 3: rewards through the bright screens and all the different colors

613
00:30:22,480 --> 00:30:25,840
Speaker 3: you see. So when people put their phones into grayscale,

614
00:30:26,160 --> 00:30:29,080
Speaker 3: that reduces how rewarding and stimulating the phone is, and

615
00:30:29,120 --> 00:30:31,840
Speaker 3: people's cell phone time tends to drop by about an

616
00:30:31,840 --> 00:30:35,120
Speaker 3: hour a day in studies. And then finally you can

617
00:30:35,160 --> 00:30:38,120
Speaker 3: slow down the behavior as well. There's an app that

618
00:30:38,160 --> 00:30:40,600
Speaker 3: I really love for people who spend too much time

619
00:30:40,600 --> 00:30:43,640
Speaker 3: on certain apps, and it's called clear Space. And basically

620
00:30:43,640 --> 00:30:47,560
Speaker 3: what this app does it leans on behavioral psychology and

621
00:30:47,880 --> 00:30:51,200
Speaker 3: it inserts a pause before you want to use any app.

622
00:30:51,280 --> 00:30:53,440
Speaker 3: So it goes, I'm sure you want to use this

623
00:30:53,480 --> 00:30:54,680
Speaker 3: app when you go to open it, and you have

624
00:30:54,720 --> 00:30:56,480
Speaker 3: to go yes, and it goes, okay, let's take a

625
00:30:56,480 --> 00:30:58,440
Speaker 3: breath together, you know, and you have to take a

626
00:30:58,440 --> 00:31:01,080
Speaker 3: breath for ten seconds, and then you have to go

627
00:31:01,400 --> 00:31:02,600
Speaker 3: and then it asks you how long do you want

628
00:31:02,640 --> 00:31:05,880
Speaker 3: to use the app? Because now it's like it realizes

629
00:31:05,880 --> 00:31:07,040
Speaker 3: you're going to go off the rail, so you go

630
00:31:07,080 --> 00:31:08,520
Speaker 3: to okay, I'm going to use it for ten minutes,

631
00:31:09,120 --> 00:31:12,160
Speaker 3: and that will. I mean, it's laning on psychology that

632
00:31:12,200 --> 00:31:14,920
Speaker 3: we've known work since the forties, and it definitely reduces

633
00:31:14,920 --> 00:31:17,960
Speaker 3: the frequency of app use. And so I think it's

634
00:31:18,000 --> 00:31:21,560
Speaker 3: finding useful tools and tricks to get around the scarcity

635
00:31:21,680 --> 00:31:23,760
Speaker 3: loop are the way to combat it.

636
00:31:23,840 --> 00:31:26,160
Speaker 2: Really to help us do the things we actually want

637
00:31:26,160 --> 00:31:28,479
Speaker 2: to do over the long term, as opposed to the

638
00:31:28,520 --> 00:31:30,320
Speaker 2: things we think we want to do right in the.

639
00:31:30,240 --> 00:31:30,880
Speaker 1: Heat of the moment.

640
00:31:31,680 --> 00:31:33,120
Speaker 2: Because the truth is there's a lot of things I

641
00:31:33,120 --> 00:31:34,600
Speaker 2: want to do in the heat of the moment that

642
00:31:34,600 --> 00:31:38,280
Speaker 2: aren't really helping me in my bigger goals. And that

643
00:31:38,400 --> 00:31:41,560
Speaker 2: is what getting sucked into twenty minutes of doom scrolling

644
00:31:41,920 --> 00:31:42,960
Speaker 2: is for a lot of people. At the end of

645
00:31:43,000 --> 00:31:45,480
Speaker 2: the night, it's like, that's not how I expected or

646
00:31:45,480 --> 00:31:48,320
Speaker 2: hoped to spend my evening. It just kind of became

647
00:31:48,360 --> 00:31:50,920
Speaker 2: the default and the easy thing to do, and that's

648
00:31:50,960 --> 00:31:54,360
Speaker 2: what our phones are. The data also finds that thinking

649
00:31:54,360 --> 00:31:58,600
Speaker 2: about long term consequences can help cool cravings. Right, so

650
00:31:58,800 --> 00:32:03,120
Speaker 2: thinking maybe about out how doing something like that, doing

651
00:32:03,120 --> 00:32:08,080
Speaker 2: something negative, going down that rabbit hole could seeing how

652
00:32:08,200 --> 00:32:10,880
Speaker 2: wait a second, that might actually help or hurt me

653
00:32:11,120 --> 00:32:13,000
Speaker 2: in my ability to achieve the thing I want to

654
00:32:13,000 --> 00:32:15,640
Speaker 2: achieve ten years down the road. How do we connect

655
00:32:15,640 --> 00:32:18,280
Speaker 2: those dots. It makes me think of like a Fidelity

656
00:32:18,320 --> 00:32:20,320
Speaker 2: did this study back in the day about if we

657
00:32:20,480 --> 00:32:24,400
Speaker 2: just looked at like a picture of ourselves that was

658
00:32:24,600 --> 00:32:26,920
Speaker 2: thirty had thirty years of age on it, where Matt

659
00:32:26,920 --> 00:32:28,920
Speaker 2: and I look like we're grandpa's instead of like, you know,

660
00:32:29,080 --> 00:32:32,000
Speaker 2: geriatric millennials. How that makes an impact on how much

661
00:32:32,040 --> 00:32:34,800
Speaker 2: people save and invest for their future and it has

662
00:32:34,840 --> 00:32:36,960
Speaker 2: a real, real impact. It helps people connect the dots.

663
00:32:36,960 --> 00:32:39,040
Speaker 2: Are there other ways that we can kind of connect

664
00:32:39,040 --> 00:32:40,600
Speaker 2: those long term dots in our lives?

665
00:32:40,960 --> 00:32:45,440
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think it's The research on smoking is really interesting,

666
00:32:45,520 --> 00:32:49,840
Speaker 3: so scientists will have smokers even just think about the

667
00:32:49,880 --> 00:32:53,280
Speaker 3: long term consequences of smoking cancer things like that, and

668
00:32:53,400 --> 00:32:56,760
Speaker 3: smoking behavior tends to reduce I mean, I think really

669
00:32:56,800 --> 00:32:59,760
Speaker 3: it is. It is a little bit of an uphill

670
00:33:00,240 --> 00:33:04,120
Speaker 3: swim because we are surrounded in so many stimulating things.

671
00:33:04,160 --> 00:33:06,760
Speaker 3: And I'm also not saying that no one should ever

672
00:33:07,040 --> 00:33:12,120
Speaker 3: have any fun ever again, but I do think trying

673
00:33:12,120 --> 00:33:17,040
Speaker 3: to insert pause and make sure you're doing behaviors consciously

674
00:33:17,320 --> 00:33:20,280
Speaker 3: is really the answer. And again, it's like people really

675
00:33:20,320 --> 00:33:23,760
Speaker 3: get just trapped in this scarcity loop. It's what makes

676
00:33:23,800 --> 00:33:26,720
Speaker 3: people zone out to phones, is what makes people zone

677
00:33:26,720 --> 00:33:31,040
Speaker 3: out to slot machines. All these different behaviors and understanding

678
00:33:31,040 --> 00:33:32,959
Speaker 3: the mechanics of that is one of the first ways

679
00:33:33,000 --> 00:33:34,640
Speaker 3: to stop it exactly.

680
00:33:34,680 --> 00:33:37,880
Speaker 1: Plus, you know, going in for that elementary school presentation

681
00:33:37,920 --> 00:33:40,880
Speaker 1: when they brought the lungs in suspended in all to hide,

682
00:33:41,120 --> 00:33:43,480
Speaker 1: you saw the oh, you saw the lungs that were

683
00:33:43,600 --> 00:33:46,520
Speaker 1: the smoker's lungs, and then the lungs that were not right, Michael, Well,

684
00:33:46,560 --> 00:33:48,840
Speaker 1: that's totally talking about smoking.

685
00:33:48,840 --> 00:33:50,560
Speaker 2: It makes me all the changes that have happened, one

686
00:33:50,600 --> 00:33:54,120
Speaker 2: to cigarette cartons, two to where cigarettes are kept in

687
00:33:54,160 --> 00:33:56,520
Speaker 2: a gas station, think about what happens in Europe, like

688
00:33:56,560 --> 00:34:00,440
Speaker 2: the way they label the cigarettes over there, and all

689
00:34:00,520 --> 00:34:05,920
Speaker 2: of those extra roadblocks essentially to buying cigarettes are participating

690
00:34:05,960 --> 00:34:09,239
Speaker 2: in the smoking community. I think has is part of

691
00:34:09,239 --> 00:34:13,000
Speaker 2: what's dramatically led to a reduction in smoking. So you

692
00:34:13,040 --> 00:34:15,719
Speaker 2: can't necessarily throw it all on like one thing. Oh

693
00:34:15,719 --> 00:34:20,320
Speaker 2: it was it was abstinence smoking, abstinence talks in elementary

694
00:34:20,320 --> 00:34:21,400
Speaker 2: school or something like that.

695
00:34:21,320 --> 00:34:23,320
Speaker 1: All scared straight, right exactly.

696
00:34:23,680 --> 00:34:25,960
Speaker 2: It's maybe some of that, right, But then it's all

697
00:34:26,000 --> 00:34:29,600
Speaker 2: these other things too that just kind of remove smoking

698
00:34:29,680 --> 00:34:33,560
Speaker 2: from consciousness and make it more of like kind of

699
00:34:33,600 --> 00:34:36,439
Speaker 2: a rebrand it in like a grotesque sort of way.

700
00:34:36,800 --> 00:34:39,480
Speaker 2: So yeah, that's fascinating. But we got a few more

701
00:34:39,560 --> 00:34:41,920
Speaker 2: questions to get to with you, Michael, specifically about like

702
00:34:41,960 --> 00:34:44,839
Speaker 2: how to use gamification maybe to push us on our

703
00:34:44,880 --> 00:34:46,799
Speaker 2: path to achieve the things we want instead of having

704
00:34:46,840 --> 00:34:48,400
Speaker 2: it prevent us from doing that.

705
00:34:48,640 --> 00:34:58,360
Speaker 1: We'll talk about that right after this. All right, we

706
00:34:58,400 --> 00:35:00,400
Speaker 1: are back and again we're talking about how you can

707
00:35:00,440 --> 00:35:04,560
Speaker 1: overcome your scarcity brain with Michael Easter and Michael, like

708
00:35:04,640 --> 00:35:09,200
Speaker 1: Joel mentioned before the break, gamification is really interesting because

709
00:35:09,239 --> 00:35:11,200
Speaker 1: it can I feel like we've talked about just all

710
00:35:11,239 --> 00:35:14,520
Speaker 1: the bad ways that gamification is being used against us,

711
00:35:14,880 --> 00:35:18,200
Speaker 1: but simultaneously it can be a really positive thing. I

712
00:35:18,239 --> 00:35:20,840
Speaker 1: mentioned my brand new garment watch that Joel talked to

713
00:35:20,840 --> 00:35:24,320
Speaker 1: me in the game. But it's got this this score

714
00:35:24,360 --> 00:35:26,200
Speaker 1: that I'm looking at right now. It's called VO two

715
00:35:26,320 --> 00:35:30,080
Speaker 1: max and it's this singular number that I'm able to

716
00:35:30,120 --> 00:35:33,360
Speaker 1: look at, And man, do I want to game my

717
00:35:33,520 --> 00:35:37,600
Speaker 1: watch so that I see that number grow? By the way,

718
00:35:38,080 --> 00:35:41,480
Speaker 1: It's not even possible. Come on, But yeah, talk to

719
00:35:41,520 --> 00:35:44,319
Speaker 1: us how gamification how it can be so effective when

720
00:35:44,320 --> 00:35:47,719
Speaker 1: it comes to our ability to change our behavior, whether

721
00:35:47,800 --> 00:35:49,279
Speaker 1: for negative or for good.

722
00:35:49,360 --> 00:35:52,040
Speaker 3: Yeah. Well, one thing that I'll start with, because this

723
00:35:52,560 --> 00:35:56,320
Speaker 3: audience is interested in finance, is that numbers are pretty

724
00:35:56,360 --> 00:35:59,760
Speaker 3: new in the grand scheme of time and space. There

725
00:35:59,800 --> 00:36:03,120
Speaker 3: are are actually still some tribes in the world in

726
00:36:03,160 --> 00:36:06,360
Speaker 3: the Amazon that don't use numbers. So researchers think that

727
00:36:06,440 --> 00:36:09,600
Speaker 3: humans basically evolved thinking being able to count basically up

728
00:36:09,640 --> 00:36:13,200
Speaker 3: to three and then everything thereafter we would use small, medium,

729
00:36:13,239 --> 00:36:16,960
Speaker 3: and large designations for all different things. Yeah, so numbers

730
00:36:16,960 --> 00:36:18,959
Speaker 3: get invented. I think it was about ten thousand years ago,

731
00:36:19,160 --> 00:36:22,480
Speaker 3: and this very much changes our behavior and what we

732
00:36:22,520 --> 00:36:24,480
Speaker 3: do because now we can quantify things, We can be

733
00:36:24,520 --> 00:36:28,560
Speaker 3: more precise, and numbers allow us to really just take

734
00:36:28,880 --> 00:36:34,480
Speaker 3: a big swath of some big concept and make it simple. Right, So,

735
00:36:34,560 --> 00:36:37,520
Speaker 3: if you think about I'll use your VO two max. Thing.

736
00:36:37,880 --> 00:36:41,000
Speaker 3: Why we care about VO two max is because it's

737
00:36:41,040 --> 00:36:43,839
Speaker 3: a marker of health, it's a marker of fitness, and

738
00:36:45,160 --> 00:36:47,720
Speaker 3: allowing being able to put a number on it basically

739
00:36:47,760 --> 00:36:50,680
Speaker 3: just tells you how you are doing. But really, when

740
00:36:50,760 --> 00:36:52,799
Speaker 3: you look at the big picture, it's like, okay, well

741
00:36:52,840 --> 00:36:54,600
Speaker 3: why do we care about health? And how do we

742
00:36:54,640 --> 00:36:56,520
Speaker 3: define health? And what is fitness to us? What do

743
00:36:56,520 --> 00:36:59,040
Speaker 3: you mean? Right? It's a big, complicated concept with a

744
00:36:59,040 --> 00:37:01,840
Speaker 3: lot of different answers. It's really murky. So what numbers

745
00:37:01,880 --> 00:37:04,680
Speaker 3: just allow us to sort of understand things very quickly.

746
00:37:05,360 --> 00:37:07,040
Speaker 3: And so when I think about it in terms of

747
00:37:07,120 --> 00:37:10,040
Speaker 3: gamification and how it can help us, it can help

748
00:37:10,080 --> 00:37:13,720
Speaker 3: people do behaviors that they want to do and easily

749
00:37:13,760 --> 00:37:17,200
Speaker 3: measure their progress along the way. So with you, it's like,

750
00:37:17,440 --> 00:37:19,120
Speaker 3: if you can get that, if you can do these

751
00:37:19,120 --> 00:37:21,000
Speaker 3: things that are going to get that VO two max

752
00:37:21,680 --> 00:37:25,239
Speaker 3: up that number, you can be rather sure that you've

753
00:37:25,239 --> 00:37:27,600
Speaker 3: done some things that are probably going to move you

754
00:37:27,640 --> 00:37:31,000
Speaker 3: away from disease. For me, it could be like, I

755
00:37:31,040 --> 00:37:33,120
Speaker 3: don't know. I'm sure there's finance apps out there that

756
00:37:33,160 --> 00:37:36,520
Speaker 3: are using gamification to get people to save more or

757
00:37:36,560 --> 00:37:39,040
Speaker 3: to invest more, or to you guys would know better

758
00:37:39,120 --> 00:37:44,759
Speaker 3: about those than I would. I think the problem is

759
00:37:44,840 --> 00:37:50,080
Speaker 3: when we focus on the number only without asking, well,

760
00:37:50,080 --> 00:37:51,680
Speaker 3: why do I care about this number in the first place?

761
00:37:51,920 --> 00:37:52,120
Speaker 1: Yeah?

762
00:37:52,520 --> 00:37:54,680
Speaker 2: Right, So, well that makes me think of like there

763
00:37:54,760 --> 00:37:58,160
Speaker 2: was a credit union in Michigan, and then there was

764
00:37:58,400 --> 00:38:00,480
Speaker 2: a bank that launched something really similar or it hasn't

765
00:38:00,480 --> 00:38:02,080
Speaker 2: taken off quite as much as I would have hoped,

766
00:38:02,280 --> 00:38:05,640
Speaker 2: but instead of paying higher savings rates to everybody, it

767
00:38:06,880 --> 00:38:08,759
Speaker 2: had like a lottery sort of aspect to it. Right,

768
00:38:09,080 --> 00:38:11,880
Speaker 2: So everybody gets paid instead of five percent, maybe they

769
00:38:11,920 --> 00:38:14,720
Speaker 2: get paid two percent. But then there's winners every single

770
00:38:14,719 --> 00:38:17,640
Speaker 2: week where if you hit certain savings targets, you're eligible

771
00:38:17,760 --> 00:38:19,680
Speaker 2: you can win a thousand bucks, five thousand bucks, ten

772
00:38:19,719 --> 00:38:22,600
Speaker 2: thousand bucks stuff like that, and that actually, even though

773
00:38:22,600 --> 00:38:25,640
Speaker 2: maybe less money overall is going out to the average person,

774
00:38:25,960 --> 00:38:29,920
Speaker 2: because there's a gamification aspect to savings, it pushes people

775
00:38:30,040 --> 00:38:32,400
Speaker 2: harder in that direction. And that's the kind of stuff

776
00:38:32,400 --> 00:38:37,800
Speaker 2: that like, it's not making companies as much money as

777
00:38:38,000 --> 00:38:40,719
Speaker 2: let's say, getting people to spend. It's not going to

778
00:38:40,800 --> 00:38:43,600
Speaker 2: get funded in nearly the same way. But I love

779
00:38:43,600 --> 00:38:45,920
Speaker 2: to see stuff like that on the gamification side that

780
00:38:45,960 --> 00:38:48,799
Speaker 2: push people towards like the good habits that we want

781
00:38:48,840 --> 00:38:49,880
Speaker 2: to see them express.

782
00:38:50,080 --> 00:38:52,640
Speaker 3: Yeah, totally, And I think it is you know what

783
00:38:52,640 --> 00:38:54,799
Speaker 3: I think about it from a financial perspective, It is

784
00:38:54,840 --> 00:38:58,279
Speaker 3: like the reason you care about saving in the first

785
00:38:58,280 --> 00:38:59,640
Speaker 3: place is that you don't want to end up in

786
00:38:59,640 --> 00:39:03,600
Speaker 3: a position where you are more constrained where you end up,

787
00:39:03,719 --> 00:39:05,920
Speaker 3: you know, older, and you're out of money, and now

788
00:39:05,920 --> 00:39:10,080
Speaker 3: you've got all these problems. At the same time, when

789
00:39:10,080 --> 00:39:12,480
Speaker 3: I think about salary, it's like, we all want to

790
00:39:12,480 --> 00:39:14,440
Speaker 3: see the salary number go up, But then the question

791
00:39:14,560 --> 00:39:17,799
Speaker 3: is why right, because ideally it allows us to live

792
00:39:17,960 --> 00:39:20,319
Speaker 3: more free or a better lifestyle. Now. At the same time,

793
00:39:21,880 --> 00:39:24,239
Speaker 3: pushing the salary number up over time, over time might

794
00:39:24,280 --> 00:39:27,440
Speaker 3: actually require you to do things that make you less happy,

795
00:39:27,640 --> 00:39:30,040
Speaker 3: that make you less free, right, so that number. Wanting

796
00:39:30,080 --> 00:39:31,799
Speaker 3: that number to go up can start to constrain you.

797
00:39:31,920 --> 00:39:34,839
Speaker 3: The bigger question is like what is this what does

798
00:39:34,880 --> 00:39:37,200
Speaker 3: this number stand for? Overall? Like why do we care

799
00:39:37,200 --> 00:39:40,000
Speaker 3: in the first place? And unpacking that, I think everything

800
00:39:40,040 --> 00:39:43,200
Speaker 3: from the number on your fitness app to the number

801
00:39:43,239 --> 00:39:46,799
Speaker 3: in your bank account, to your health scores, to all

802
00:39:46,840 --> 00:39:50,600
Speaker 3: these different ways that gamification gets used. It's realizing that

803
00:39:50,800 --> 00:39:54,200
Speaker 3: you can use that number, the gamification as a tool

804
00:39:54,320 --> 00:39:59,239
Speaker 3: to incentivize better behaviors. At the same time, knowing what

805
00:39:59,320 --> 00:40:02,399
Speaker 3: the bigger meaning of that better behavior is and why

806
00:40:02,440 --> 00:40:04,560
Speaker 3: you're doing that in the first place, I think is important,

807
00:40:04,640 --> 00:40:06,480
Speaker 3: so you don't start just chasing the number for the

808
00:40:06,480 --> 00:40:09,040
Speaker 3: sake of the number and actually have the behavior backfire.

809
00:40:09,280 --> 00:40:10,080
Speaker 1: Exactly. That's true.

810
00:40:10,080 --> 00:40:12,920
Speaker 2: I mean, like even with saving or investing, you can

811
00:40:13,080 --> 00:40:14,919
Speaker 2: overdo it. That's something we talk about on the show

812
00:40:14,960 --> 00:40:17,160
Speaker 2: here too, And so you can you can max out

813
00:40:17,200 --> 00:40:19,040
Speaker 2: your four oh one K every single year for a

814
00:40:19,120 --> 00:40:23,680
Speaker 2: decade and then and find that you've squandered relationships because

815
00:40:23,719 --> 00:40:25,400
Speaker 2: you were working too hard and you were too focused

816
00:40:25,400 --> 00:40:28,319
Speaker 2: on investing. And so that's possible too. Right, you can

817
00:40:28,360 --> 00:40:31,120
Speaker 2: have the wrong short term view and hope of this

818
00:40:31,239 --> 00:40:34,000
Speaker 2: like long term supposedly good ideal, But why are we

819
00:40:34,000 --> 00:40:36,359
Speaker 2: maxing out our four O one K in the first place? Yeah, yeah,

820
00:40:36,400 --> 00:40:38,040
Speaker 2: maybe we should be, but maybe you shouldn't be.

821
00:40:38,080 --> 00:40:40,080
Speaker 1: And it's different for every person. Yeah, so sort of

822
00:40:40,120 --> 00:40:42,359
Speaker 1: what Michael was saying earlier. The key to so much

823
00:40:42,360 --> 00:40:45,319
Speaker 1: of this is just moderation. Yeah, and but like we

824
00:40:45,400 --> 00:40:47,640
Speaker 1: are so bad at that. We're so bad at moderation

825
00:40:47,719 --> 00:40:49,839
Speaker 1: when it comes to any of the different things that

826
00:40:49,880 --> 00:40:51,799
Speaker 1: we allow into our lives or the different things that

827
00:40:51,840 --> 00:40:55,879
Speaker 1: we pursue. But truly that is the answer, And man,

828
00:40:56,120 --> 00:40:57,880
Speaker 1: it's so powerful. What you said about the numbers two

829
00:40:58,000 --> 00:41:00,640
Speaker 1: is that it oversimplifies things because, like I think, we

830
00:41:00,719 --> 00:41:04,719
Speaker 1: crave simplification. We crave the ability to look at a

831
00:41:04,840 --> 00:41:06,799
Speaker 1: number on a watch and be like, oh, haven't hit

832
00:41:06,840 --> 00:41:08,839
Speaker 1: my steps or oh my vo two Max dropped a point.

833
00:41:08,840 --> 00:41:10,360
Speaker 1: I gotta get it, get out there, get these are

834
00:41:10,440 --> 00:41:13,680
Speaker 1: more running. But there was a whole lot of information

835
00:41:13,920 --> 00:41:17,759
Speaker 1: or quality perhaps that gets lost in that translation. Like

836
00:41:17,760 --> 00:41:20,080
Speaker 1: one of the examples you give in your book, you

837
00:41:20,120 --> 00:41:23,040
Speaker 1: talk about one of the wine magazines or wine websites,

838
00:41:23,080 --> 00:41:25,799
Speaker 1: But how it used to be where when they would

839
00:41:25,800 --> 00:41:30,400
Speaker 1: try to rate wines, folks would use big, flowery language.

840
00:41:30,719 --> 00:41:33,400
Speaker 1: But what that meant was that it was inaccessible to

841
00:41:33,440 --> 00:41:35,759
Speaker 1: a whole lot of folks because it was so snobbish.

842
00:41:35,840 --> 00:41:39,360
Speaker 1: But then somebody came along and they attached a number

843
00:41:39,560 --> 00:41:41,799
Speaker 1: too wines. Can you talk about that and how that

844
00:41:41,840 --> 00:41:43,080
Speaker 1: sort of changed that industry.

845
00:41:43,320 --> 00:41:46,719
Speaker 3: Yeah, so you get this guy, Robert Parker, and he

846
00:41:46,840 --> 00:41:48,600
Speaker 3: started Wine Advocate magazine.

847
00:41:48,600 --> 00:41:51,240
Speaker 1: Wine Advocate, that's right, Yeah, And so what he did.

848
00:41:51,280 --> 00:41:55,520
Speaker 3: Is he would start giving wines a score from I

849
00:41:55,520 --> 00:41:59,279
Speaker 3: think fifty to one hundred. Now, when he did that,

850
00:41:59,400 --> 00:42:02,680
Speaker 3: it's simplify this really complex thing, which is trying to

851
00:42:02,719 --> 00:42:05,319
Speaker 3: understand whether a wine is good or bad. Right, Like, sure,

852
00:42:05,920 --> 00:42:08,880
Speaker 3: you could read a whole paragraph on twenty different wines,

853
00:42:09,320 --> 00:42:11,000
Speaker 3: or you could just look at the number and go, oh,

854
00:42:11,000 --> 00:42:12,480
Speaker 3: well that one got a ninety five and this one

855
00:42:12,520 --> 00:42:14,880
Speaker 3: got in ninety four. Therefore that one is better. The

856
00:42:14,920 --> 00:42:18,080
Speaker 3: ninety five is clearly better, and so people really latch

857
00:42:18,120 --> 00:42:23,400
Speaker 3: onto this rating system. Now, the issue is that Parker

858
00:42:23,520 --> 00:42:26,920
Speaker 3: was rating the wines, and so he's obviously has his

859
00:42:27,000 --> 00:42:31,200
Speaker 3: own preferences and tastes and what tends to happen is

860
00:42:31,200 --> 00:42:33,320
Speaker 3: that when he gives a wine a score of ninety

861
00:42:33,360 --> 00:42:35,919
Speaker 3: or above, it tends to fly off the shelves, while

862
00:42:35,960 --> 00:42:38,680
Speaker 3: wines that are say in the eighties or in the seventies,

863
00:42:39,080 --> 00:42:44,080
Speaker 3: they don't sell quite as well. So vinters wine makers

864
00:42:44,520 --> 00:42:47,239
Speaker 3: they notice this and they go, oh, we need to

865
00:42:47,280 --> 00:42:51,120
Speaker 3: start making wines that this guy will like. We need

866
00:42:51,880 --> 00:42:54,040
Speaker 3: we need wines that are a ninety plus by wine advocate.

867
00:42:55,040 --> 00:42:57,440
Speaker 3: So that's what they start doing, and it changes this

868
00:42:57,560 --> 00:43:00,400
Speaker 3: wine making tradition that had been going on for thousands

869
00:43:00,440 --> 00:43:03,160
Speaker 3: and thousands of years, all because this guy's tastes and

870
00:43:03,200 --> 00:43:06,600
Speaker 3: his ability to put a number on things. Now, if

871
00:43:06,600 --> 00:43:08,760
Speaker 3: you don't have the same taste as this guy.

872
00:43:08,560 --> 00:43:11,520
Speaker 1: Though exactly, this information is useless to you.

873
00:43:11,680 --> 00:43:13,640
Speaker 3: Ye, And like the wines that you used to like

874
00:43:13,680 --> 00:43:16,279
Speaker 3: from the wine maker, now it's changed because they're trying

875
00:43:16,320 --> 00:43:19,799
Speaker 3: to have it be you know, good in this guy's eyes. Now.

876
00:43:19,800 --> 00:43:23,719
Speaker 3: The other problem, too, is that people usually eat food

877
00:43:23,760 --> 00:43:26,120
Speaker 3: when they drink wine. But if you're trying to rate

878
00:43:26,200 --> 00:43:29,120
Speaker 3: something objectively, you can't have food with it. So now

879
00:43:29,160 --> 00:43:32,720
Speaker 3: this has changed the whole freaking purpose of the wine

880
00:43:32,840 --> 00:43:34,560
Speaker 3: and the wine making. But it's not you know, The

881
00:43:34,800 --> 00:43:37,680
Speaker 3: important point is that it is not just in wine.

882
00:43:38,480 --> 00:43:41,439
Speaker 3: You also see this in basically the scoring or rating

883
00:43:41,560 --> 00:43:46,080
Speaker 3: of anything from movies, to books, to music, to you know,

884
00:43:46,280 --> 00:43:50,200
Speaker 3: Yelp reviews, to all these different things. So numbers really

885
00:43:50,200 --> 00:43:55,520
Speaker 3: allow us to simplify really complex data. That is good

886
00:43:55,560 --> 00:43:58,320
Speaker 3: for speed, but we leave out a lot of nuance,

887
00:43:58,360 --> 00:44:00,359
Speaker 3: we leave out a lot of accuracy, we leave out

888
00:44:00,440 --> 00:44:01,960
Speaker 3: a lot of individual variation.

889
00:44:02,239 --> 00:44:05,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, all right, Michael, you say scarcity is the mother

890
00:44:05,560 --> 00:44:09,680
Speaker 2: of invention ideas and breaking new ground. So I don't know,

891
00:44:09,719 --> 00:44:13,319
Speaker 2: give me your final thoughts on scarcity and how it

892
00:44:13,400 --> 00:44:16,000
Speaker 2: impacts all of us on a day to day level

893
00:44:16,000 --> 00:44:19,040
Speaker 2: when it comes to our money and when it comes

894
00:44:19,120 --> 00:44:22,000
Speaker 2: to just generally our happiness in life.

895
00:44:22,280 --> 00:44:24,759
Speaker 3: Yeah. There's a really interesting study that I cite in

896
00:44:24,760 --> 00:44:27,520
Speaker 3: the book, and it basically took two groups and it

897
00:44:27,560 --> 00:44:32,239
Speaker 3: gave them a series of problems to solve using different resources.

898
00:44:32,280 --> 00:44:36,320
Speaker 3: And for one group, they gave them effectively unlimited resources

899
00:44:36,360 --> 00:44:39,279
Speaker 3: to solve the problem. And so that's what the people did.

900
00:44:39,520 --> 00:44:41,680
Speaker 3: They just you know, they threw resources out of they

901
00:44:41,719 --> 00:44:44,680
Speaker 3: threw money at the problem, and they did solve it. Now,

902
00:44:44,760 --> 00:44:47,239
Speaker 3: the other group, they had very limited resources. They had

903
00:44:47,239 --> 00:44:50,520
Speaker 3: to sort of figure it out. Mcgiver fix the problem now.

904
00:44:50,560 --> 00:44:53,600
Speaker 3: They also solved the problem too, except that the way

905
00:44:53,600 --> 00:44:58,920
Speaker 3: that they solved it used fewer resources. Their fixes for

906
00:44:58,960 --> 00:45:02,920
Speaker 3: the problem were also de more creative, more intuitive. And

907
00:45:02,960 --> 00:45:06,000
Speaker 3: so I think that what happens when we face scarce

908
00:45:06,080 --> 00:45:08,919
Speaker 3: resources is, like I mentioned with that other study from

909
00:45:09,600 --> 00:45:14,239
Speaker 3: the Lego study, our tendency is to just try and

910
00:45:14,400 --> 00:45:16,759
Speaker 3: throw money at it, throw resources at it. Right, But

911
00:45:16,800 --> 00:45:19,400
Speaker 3: if we just put some constraints on ourselves and go, Okay,

912
00:45:19,480 --> 00:45:21,160
Speaker 3: I'm going to sit here and I'm going to pretend

913
00:45:21,160 --> 00:45:23,359
Speaker 3: that I have no resources solve this problem. How would

914
00:45:23,400 --> 00:45:25,600
Speaker 3: I try and solve it without any resources? I think

915
00:45:25,600 --> 00:45:28,279
Speaker 3: that one you can not only solve it, but two

916
00:45:28,560 --> 00:45:30,640
Speaker 3: your problem will often be much better than you might

917
00:45:30,680 --> 00:45:33,080
Speaker 3: have expected, and that saves you money over the long term.

918
00:45:33,080 --> 00:45:35,279
Speaker 3: When you think about the problems that people face in

919
00:45:35,320 --> 00:45:38,600
Speaker 3: their daily life and the financial means that those require.

920
00:45:38,960 --> 00:45:40,799
Speaker 1: I love it. Yeah, that's that might be the best

921
00:45:40,880 --> 00:45:43,520
Speaker 1: argument for less is more. Yeah, Michael, thank you so

922
00:45:43,640 --> 00:45:45,680
Speaker 1: much for talking with us. Where's it that folks can

923
00:45:45,800 --> 00:45:48,000
Speaker 1: learn more about you? Your book, what you're up to?

924
00:45:48,120 --> 00:45:50,680
Speaker 3: Yeah, go on my website. Easter Michael, I have a

925
00:45:50,719 --> 00:45:52,879
Speaker 3: newsletter and it's got a big archive with a lot

926
00:45:52,880 --> 00:45:55,360
Speaker 3: of stuff like how you can learn more about that

927
00:45:55,400 --> 00:45:57,840
Speaker 3: scarcity loop I talk to, and how it applies to finances,

928
00:45:57,880 --> 00:46:00,000
Speaker 3: how it applies to all these different things. So, yeah,

929
00:46:00,120 --> 00:46:02,520
Speaker 3: check out my website. You can sign up for the

930
00:46:02,560 --> 00:46:05,360
Speaker 3: newsletter there and get the archive, and yeah, that's probably

931
00:46:05,360 --> 00:46:06,480
Speaker 3: the best place to find.

932
00:46:06,239 --> 00:46:07,320
Speaker 1: Me right on Awesome.

933
00:46:07,320 --> 00:46:08,759
Speaker 2: We'll link to all that stuff in our show notes

934
00:46:08,760 --> 00:46:10,840
Speaker 2: as well. Michael, thanks for joining us, man.

935
00:46:10,800 --> 00:46:12,960
Speaker 3: Yeah, thank you very much. It was great to talk nice.

936
00:46:13,000 --> 00:46:15,880
Speaker 1: Sorry, man, what that was a great conversation. Do you

937
00:46:15,880 --> 00:46:18,600
Speaker 1: think we've had any conversation that was any less about

938
00:46:18,760 --> 00:46:21,680
Speaker 1: money than the conversation we just had with Michael?

939
00:46:21,760 --> 00:46:25,359
Speaker 2: More about human behavior, But simultaneously, it just underpins how

940
00:46:25,400 --> 00:46:28,200
Speaker 2: it is that we handle money, just like you know,

941
00:46:28,239 --> 00:46:31,399
Speaker 2: the mindset and when it comes to developing positive, good

942
00:46:31,440 --> 00:46:33,479
Speaker 2: habits that are going to lead us to be able

943
00:46:33,520 --> 00:46:36,120
Speaker 2: to ultimately hopefully have more money on hand to kind

944
00:46:36,120 --> 00:46:38,120
Speaker 2: of live the life that we want to live. But

945
00:46:38,320 --> 00:46:40,480
Speaker 2: I thought about asking Michael at the very top, like

946
00:46:40,719 --> 00:46:43,239
Speaker 2: if he knew how much people were able to put

947
00:46:43,280 --> 00:46:44,719
Speaker 2: into a four oh one k or a roth Ira

948
00:46:44,880 --> 00:46:47,920
Speaker 2: or something this year I assume he didn't because it

949
00:46:47,680 --> 00:46:49,520
Speaker 2: was not his thing, you know, which is which it

950
00:46:49,640 --> 00:46:51,520
Speaker 2: just to prove a point that, like we had Michael

951
00:46:51,560 --> 00:46:54,759
Speaker 2: on for other reasons, he's like brilliant, vastly knowledgeable on

952
00:46:54,880 --> 00:46:58,160
Speaker 2: all these other things that impact our money, yes, but

953
00:46:58,200 --> 00:46:59,680
Speaker 2: indirectly right exactly.

954
00:47:00,200 --> 00:47:01,800
Speaker 1: So yeah, what was your that being said? What was

955
00:47:01,840 --> 00:47:03,439
Speaker 1: your big takeaway? Are you going to try to channel

956
00:47:03,480 --> 00:47:05,360
Speaker 1: it in a personal finance direction? Okay?

957
00:47:05,400 --> 00:47:07,440
Speaker 2: So or no, there's two different ways. I feel like

958
00:47:07,440 --> 00:47:09,319
Speaker 2: I go here, but I'm gonna say this when he

959
00:47:09,360 --> 00:47:13,680
Speaker 2: said everyone sucks at moderation, and I think he's right, Like,

960
00:47:13,719 --> 00:47:16,600
Speaker 2: I think it's really really hard to be a moderate

961
00:47:16,640 --> 00:47:18,280
Speaker 2: in this day and age. I mean, think about everything

962
00:47:18,280 --> 00:47:21,680
Speaker 2: in our political landscape points to polarization hard left or

963
00:47:21,680 --> 00:47:25,000
Speaker 2: hard right right, and or really if we're going to

964
00:47:25,040 --> 00:47:29,200
Speaker 2: try to accomplish anything, it being sort of middle of

965
00:47:29,239 --> 00:47:32,440
Speaker 2: the road seems like the craziest choice to make, but

966
00:47:32,560 --> 00:47:35,120
Speaker 2: we think for the most ornamental most of the time,

967
00:47:35,440 --> 00:47:39,440
Speaker 2: it's actually a good path to trot. And when it

968
00:47:39,480 --> 00:47:42,560
Speaker 2: comes to what your goals are, well define your goals

969
00:47:43,000 --> 00:47:45,320
Speaker 2: based on maybe more moderation, like do you want to

970
00:47:45,320 --> 00:47:47,560
Speaker 2: get fit cool? Do you need or want to be

971
00:47:47,760 --> 00:47:50,720
Speaker 2: oral Torchen atger level fit probably not like I certainly don't,

972
00:47:50,880 --> 00:47:55,040
Speaker 2: But like, what are your money goals amassing millions and

973
00:47:55,040 --> 00:47:57,319
Speaker 2: millions and millions? That might not be it either. You

974
00:47:57,320 --> 00:47:59,040
Speaker 2: probably don't want to just like us, you don't want

975
00:47:59,040 --> 00:48:02,560
Speaker 2: to be the next Elon Musk or Jeff Bezos for

976
00:48:02,600 --> 00:48:03,240
Speaker 2: many reasons.

977
00:48:03,920 --> 00:48:07,120
Speaker 1: But and that means, please, I know you want a

978
00:48:07,360 --> 00:48:08,000
Speaker 1: rocket ship to.

979
00:48:09,600 --> 00:48:13,440
Speaker 2: The point I do, but not having those extreme goals

980
00:48:13,920 --> 00:48:15,960
Speaker 2: is actually, I think going to lead to a happier life.

981
00:48:16,000 --> 00:48:19,000
Speaker 2: And sometimes when it comes to the consumption side of

982
00:48:19,040 --> 00:48:21,239
Speaker 2: things too, figure out what does it look like to

983
00:48:21,280 --> 00:48:23,800
Speaker 2: maybe indulge in some of these things, know that they exist,

984
00:48:23,840 --> 00:48:26,120
Speaker 2: know that these mechanisms are pulling at me, but that

985
00:48:26,239 --> 00:48:27,680
Speaker 2: I also don't have to.

986
00:48:27,640 --> 00:48:28,200
Speaker 1: Go a whole hawk.

987
00:48:28,640 --> 00:48:32,319
Speaker 2: I can be a moderate Amazon user, right, stuff like that,

988
00:48:32,360 --> 00:48:35,640
Speaker 2: Like I can moderately use my phone without going overboard.

989
00:48:35,880 --> 00:48:38,719
Speaker 2: It's about pulling back in the ways that we that

990
00:48:38,800 --> 00:48:41,200
Speaker 2: makes sense for us, so that we can live a

991
00:48:41,280 --> 00:48:42,960
Speaker 2: life that more fully reflects.

992
00:48:42,680 --> 00:48:44,839
Speaker 1: Who we want to be. Dude, I couldn't agree more. Yeah,

993
00:48:44,840 --> 00:48:46,640
Speaker 1: so my yeah, my big tech away kind of dovetails

994
00:48:46,640 --> 00:48:48,720
Speaker 1: with that a little bit. But so he was talking

995
00:48:48,760 --> 00:48:53,440
Speaker 1: about numbers and how they're relatively new, and how numbers

996
00:48:53,440 --> 00:48:57,120
Speaker 1: in and of themselves are a gamification tactic or whatever

997
00:48:57,120 --> 00:48:59,120
Speaker 1: it is that you're measuring, like, it doesn't matter what

998
00:48:59,160 --> 00:49:02,000
Speaker 1: it is, whether you're measu how fast you can run grades.

999
00:49:02,160 --> 00:49:04,439
Speaker 1: That's something that makes me think of a recent piece

1000
00:49:04,480 --> 00:49:07,160
Speaker 1: I was reading the Times recently about how set scores

1001
00:49:07,200 --> 00:49:12,080
Speaker 1: and college yeah, and just college success rates there or

1002
00:49:12,320 --> 00:49:14,720
Speaker 1: with here. On the show, what we talked about personal finance.

1003
00:49:15,000 --> 00:49:18,720
Speaker 1: Net worth? Man, what a number that is incredibly easy

1004
00:49:18,719 --> 00:49:21,359
Speaker 1: to put your finger on, and we like it because

1005
00:49:21,360 --> 00:49:24,759
Speaker 1: it's simple, it's straightforward, and it's easy to compare, to write,

1006
00:49:24,800 --> 00:49:26,839
Speaker 1: not only to yourself, but man, how easy is it

1007
00:49:26,880 --> 00:49:28,640
Speaker 1: to compare to others? Nothing, As I guess, you don't

1008
00:49:28,640 --> 00:49:31,880
Speaker 1: always know what somebody else's net worth, but the perceived

1009
00:49:31,960 --> 00:49:35,520
Speaker 1: net worth. And certainly when it comes to consumption, you know, oh,

1010
00:49:35,560 --> 00:49:37,680
Speaker 1: I don't know how much that truck costs. Truck costs

1011
00:49:37,680 --> 00:49:41,080
Speaker 1: as much, but that means their net worth went down exactly.

1012
00:49:41,440 --> 00:49:44,439
Speaker 1: So it's kind of contrary there. But when it comes

1013
00:49:44,520 --> 00:49:47,920
Speaker 1: to those who are seeking after specifically fire right like

1014
00:49:47,960 --> 00:49:51,279
Speaker 1: financial independence, retiring early, I think there can be an

1015
00:49:51,320 --> 00:49:54,840
Speaker 1: obsession with it because you're trying to hit your number,

1016
00:49:55,000 --> 00:49:58,640
Speaker 1: Like that's the term that those folks oftentimes will use.

1017
00:49:59,120 --> 00:50:02,680
Speaker 1: And yes, it's it's more efficient to figure out where

1018
00:50:02,719 --> 00:50:05,600
Speaker 1: you are on your journey. Yes it is easier, But man,

1019
00:50:06,040 --> 00:50:08,680
Speaker 1: are you missing out on so much of life that

1020
00:50:09,000 --> 00:50:12,160
Speaker 1: fits between in between this numbers that fits in between

1021
00:50:12,360 --> 00:50:15,400
Speaker 1: those monthly check ins to your net worth and figuring

1022
00:50:15,400 --> 00:50:17,839
Speaker 1: out sort of like what you said, what it is

1023
00:50:17,880 --> 00:50:20,160
Speaker 1: you want your life to look like is so important

1024
00:50:20,280 --> 00:50:22,560
Speaker 1: more than ever because we have so many resources at

1025
00:50:22,560 --> 00:50:25,880
Speaker 1: our disposal that we can choose to chase after. But

1026
00:50:26,040 --> 00:50:28,160
Speaker 1: are you chasing after the things that you want to

1027
00:50:28,239 --> 00:50:30,600
Speaker 1: chase after in this world, in this day and age,

1028
00:50:30,600 --> 00:50:32,960
Speaker 1: I think is a more important question than ever before.

1029
00:50:32,960 --> 00:50:36,399
Speaker 2: Well, and choosing not to decide is deciding to choose

1030
00:50:36,440 --> 00:50:38,880
Speaker 2: or whatever you know, you're choosing by default exactly somebody

1031
00:50:38,920 --> 00:50:41,359
Speaker 2: else is going to choose for you, and specifically it's

1032
00:50:41,400 --> 00:50:43,680
Speaker 2: going to be advertisers, it's going to be you know,

1033
00:50:43,840 --> 00:50:46,200
Speaker 2: the phone that's in your hand, It's going to be

1034
00:50:46,360 --> 00:50:48,480
Speaker 2: whoever's closest by you, Like those are going to be

1035
00:50:48,560 --> 00:50:51,120
Speaker 2: the things that impact you the most when it comes

1036
00:50:51,120 --> 00:50:53,400
Speaker 2: to what you end up actually doing as opposed to

1037
00:50:53,400 --> 00:50:54,920
Speaker 2: you proactively making that decision.

1038
00:50:55,000 --> 00:50:56,520
Speaker 1: So couldn't agree more men.

1039
00:50:56,600 --> 00:51:00,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, although slightly off topic from personal finance, like especially

1040
00:51:00,560 --> 00:51:03,240
Speaker 2: at the beginning of the year, given how great Michael's

1041
00:51:03,280 --> 00:51:03,560
Speaker 2: book is.

1042
00:51:04,160 --> 00:51:07,120
Speaker 1: Well, that's what's so great too about his book is

1043
00:51:07,160 --> 00:51:09,719
Speaker 1: like there aren't like three clear steps that you need

1044
00:51:09,760 --> 00:51:12,480
Speaker 1: to leave this conversation or leave even reading his book

1045
00:51:12,840 --> 00:51:14,600
Speaker 1: knowing that these are the three things that you need

1046
00:51:14,640 --> 00:51:18,120
Speaker 1: to address, And so we most definitely recommend for everyone

1047
00:51:18,120 --> 00:51:20,839
Speaker 1: out there to seriously read his book cover to cover

1048
00:51:21,320 --> 00:51:23,839
Speaker 1: because the examples that he gives it just sheds light

1049
00:51:23,920 --> 00:51:27,080
Speaker 1: on humanity essentially as opposed to I don't know what

1050
00:51:27,239 --> 00:51:30,160
Speaker 1: feels might feel more like a cheap takeaway, but it

1051
00:51:30,200 --> 00:51:32,400
Speaker 1: makes me want to recommend for folks to check out

1052
00:51:32,680 --> 00:51:36,319
Speaker 1: the How to Money Money Mission Statement, because that's what

1053
00:51:36,360 --> 00:51:38,840
Speaker 1: we're talking about here, is you asking yourself some of

1054
00:51:38,880 --> 00:51:43,640
Speaker 1: these larger questions. It's less the immediate tactics and strategies

1055
00:51:43,840 --> 00:51:46,080
Speaker 1: of how you're going to achieve those things, but from

1056
00:51:46,080 --> 00:51:49,440
Speaker 1: a very high level deciding for yourself which direction you

1057
00:51:49,480 --> 00:51:50,440
Speaker 1: want your life to be going in.

1058
00:51:50,480 --> 00:51:52,480
Speaker 2: Those two things actually would pair really well together. This

1059
00:51:52,520 --> 00:51:54,839
Speaker 2: book and the Money missions in it, and the money

1060
00:51:54,840 --> 00:51:56,759
Speaker 2: mission statements free will link to it in the show notes. Yeah,

1061
00:51:56,760 --> 00:51:58,239
Speaker 2: and by the way, Michael is just a great writer.

1062
00:51:58,320 --> 00:51:59,680
Speaker 2: So that's another reason. If you want to read a

1063
00:51:59,680 --> 00:52:02,160
Speaker 2: book and by someone so good, who's curious, and that

1064
00:52:02,200 --> 00:52:05,360
Speaker 2: comes across in every inch of the text, then this

1065
00:52:05,400 --> 00:52:07,399
Speaker 2: book is for you. All right, now, let's get back

1066
00:52:07,400 --> 00:52:10,400
Speaker 2: to the beer. This one is called Nelson Double IPA

1067
00:52:10,520 --> 00:52:13,879
Speaker 2: by Evergrain Brewing listener Rihanna. This is a last beer

1068
00:52:13,880 --> 00:52:16,000
Speaker 2: from her Big thanks to Rihanna for donating beers to

1069
00:52:16,040 --> 00:52:17,799
Speaker 2: the show. Matt Warrior thoughts on this beer.

1070
00:52:17,880 --> 00:52:21,239
Speaker 1: My thoughts are that, so this is a single hop

1071
00:52:21,320 --> 00:52:24,480
Speaker 1: series and it's called Nelson because it's Nelson Hops. And

1072
00:52:25,200 --> 00:52:27,800
Speaker 1: all I know now is that I love Nelson Hops because,

1073
00:52:28,000 --> 00:52:31,120
Speaker 1: oh my gosh, the flavor it's got, like all the

1074
00:52:31,120 --> 00:52:34,520
Speaker 1: hot flavors that I'm looking for one hot. Well, yes, yeah,

1075
00:52:34,520 --> 00:52:37,719
Speaker 1: it's phenomenal. Completely agree. It's so good. Not too sweet,

1076
00:52:37,880 --> 00:52:41,080
Speaker 1: not too earthy, not too piny, man, it's not too

1077
00:52:41,080 --> 00:52:41,560
Speaker 1: one note.

1078
00:52:41,640 --> 00:52:43,600
Speaker 2: Some of the other hops you're like, oh, clearly this

1079
00:52:43,640 --> 00:52:46,000
Speaker 2: is pine, Oh clearly this is citrusy, and this one

1080
00:52:46,080 --> 00:52:49,040
Speaker 2: has it runs the gamut with one hop but it

1081
00:52:49,160 --> 00:52:51,439
Speaker 2: really highlights the things I love about hops the most.

1082
00:52:51,800 --> 00:52:54,719
Speaker 2: So for Nelson, hops always stick out as a fave,

1083
00:52:55,040 --> 00:52:57,640
Speaker 2: and this beer does that hop justice.

1084
00:52:57,719 --> 00:53:00,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, I feel like I'm slowly expanding my and you

1085
00:53:00,560 --> 00:53:02,759
Speaker 1: would think, with you and me being such beer nerds

1086
00:53:02,760 --> 00:53:05,040
Speaker 1: that for a long time that we would we would

1087
00:53:05,040 --> 00:53:07,360
Speaker 1: have a better handle as to some of the different

1088
00:53:08,040 --> 00:53:10,680
Speaker 1: flavor character profiles of some of the different hops. But

1089
00:53:10,920 --> 00:53:12,400
Speaker 1: I feel like I can add another one to my

1090
00:53:12,480 --> 00:53:15,359
Speaker 1: mental checker, Nelson, they got it going on nice.

1091
00:53:15,440 --> 00:53:17,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, I love it all right. Well, that's going to

1092
00:53:17,080 --> 00:53:19,200
Speaker 2: do it for this episode, folks. Can't wait to see

1093
00:53:19,239 --> 00:53:21,600
Speaker 2: you back here on Friday for a Friday flight. And

1094
00:53:21,640 --> 00:53:23,279
Speaker 2: by the way, if you want links to some of

1095
00:53:23,280 --> 00:53:26,320
Speaker 2: the stuff we mentioned, including Michael's book and newsletter, you

1096
00:53:26,360 --> 00:53:28,680
Speaker 2: can find those up on our website at Howtimoney dot com.

1097
00:53:28,680 --> 00:53:30,360
Speaker 1: That's right, buddy. So that's gonna be it for this

1098
00:53:30,400 --> 00:53:34,359
Speaker 1: one until next time. Best Friends Out, Best Friends Out.