Speaker 1: Hello everyone, and welcome to another episode of Inside the
Speaker 1: Studio on iHeart Radio. My name is Jordan Runtag, but
Speaker 1: enough about me. My guest today is known as the
Speaker 1: Concieri of rock and roll, and the title is well
Speaker 1: earned if he had to pick. He's perhaps best known
Speaker 1: for his role in the E Street Band, where he
Speaker 1: served as guitarist, arranger, occasional co producer and full time
Speaker 1: confidant and right hand manned it was old buddy Bruce Springsteen.
Speaker 1: His departure from the group in just before the astronomical
Speaker 1: success of the Born in the Usa album sent them
Speaker 1: stratospheric struck many his career suicide. But that's when the
Speaker 1: adventure really began. He experienced a political awakening and set
Speaker 1: his sights on dismantling apartheid. To say, he took a
Speaker 1: hands on role, as putting it mildly, he risked his
Speaker 1: life meeting with activists on their home turf illegally sneaking
Speaker 1: into a South African township hidden under a blanket in
Speaker 1: the backseat of a car. He organized a mind boggling
Speaker 1: coalition of musicians under the name him Artists United Against Apartheid,
Speaker 1: and the resulting single Sun City was a crucial step
Speaker 1: towards ending the humanitarian atrocities in South Africa and freeing
Speaker 1: Nelson Mandela. When he wasn't fighting global injustice, he was
Speaker 1: busy recording a string of critically acclaimed albums with and
Speaker 1: without his new group, the eminently Funky Disciples of Soul.
Speaker 1: He broke in the acting on a little cable series
Speaker 1: known as The Sopranos. That same year, he rejoined the
Speaker 1: E Street Band, but his solo workload remained constant. In
Speaker 1: two thousand two, he began hosting his radio show Little
Speaker 1: Steven's Underground Garage and started his own label, We Could
Speaker 1: Cool Records. Both are dedicated to the preservation of rock
Speaker 1: and roll, both new and old. He also starred in
Speaker 1: and co wrote the first original Netflix series, Lily Hammer,
Speaker 1: and started the aptly names nonprofit, a rock and Roll
Speaker 1: Forever Foundation. Frankly, he has far too many activities to
Speaker 1: sum up here, and now we can add author to
Speaker 1: his lengthy CV. He recently was just fantastic memoir unrequited infatuations.
Speaker 1: He's a man of many faces. There's Miami, Steve, Little Stevie,
Speaker 1: Suvio Dante, and Frank the Fixer just to name a few,
Speaker 1: and we're thrilled to have all of them here today.
Speaker 1: I'm so happy to welcome Mr Steven van zand I
Speaker 1: hope you enjoy our chat. I absolutely adored your book.
Speaker 1: I mean, one of the things that I loved about
Speaker 1: it so much was that I could hear your voice
Speaker 1: in my head. It sounded like you. It was like
Speaker 1: I could imagine the audio book playing as I was
Speaker 1: reading it. It definitely had you all over it, which
Speaker 1: is amazing. Well, yeah, that was the idea, you know.
Speaker 1: In fact, that's how I wrote it. I wrote it
Speaker 1: with the audio in mind, you know. I mean, I
Speaker 1: did do the audiobook also, but uh, I thought, you know,
Speaker 1: let me write it the way I speak and uh
Speaker 1: and I explained to the editor and uh and the publisher.
Speaker 1: I said, you know, this is not gonna look right.
Speaker 1: It's not gonna be grammatically correct, but but if you
Speaker 1: read it the way I'm gonna write it, you're gonna
Speaker 1: hear my voice. So ye, that worked out. That worked
Speaker 1: out good, so awesome. And the book comes after a
Speaker 1: really productive last few years. I made your solo your
Speaker 1: solo record, so fire, you reform the Disciples of Soul,
Speaker 1: and you have the Summer sorcery? Did doing those records
Speaker 1: reconnect you to a certain party yourself? Like, what made
Speaker 1: you decide to tackle this book? Now? Yeah, yeah, that
Speaker 1: was that was a big part of it. Um. I
Speaker 1: And like most of my life, I didn't plan it.
Speaker 1: I didn't you know, I didn't. Uh. I didn't expect
Speaker 1: to get back into the music business at all. Uh.
Speaker 1: It's happened by just by pure circumstance. Uh Uh. At
Speaker 1: the end of the Eastreet tour in two thousand sixteen,
Speaker 1: uh this Uh, British promoter just said, you know when
Speaker 1: you're coming back to London and uh, I said, well,
Speaker 1: me and Maureen, you know, we we come back for
Speaker 1: her birthday every year, but this year we're gonna come
Speaker 1: back a little earlier for for Bill Wyman's eightieth birthday party.
Speaker 1: He invited us to his party and he said, well,
Speaker 1: that's the same week as my as My Blues festival.
Speaker 1: Why don't you throw a band together and headline one
Speaker 1: of the nights. I mean, this is how my this
Speaker 1: is how my crazy, my life is. You know. I
Speaker 1: was like, headline one of the nights. I said, I
Speaker 1: haven't fronted a band in thirty years. You know. And
Speaker 1: he says, come on, it's like riding a bicycle. I said, yeah,
Speaker 1: it's a it's a big bicycle. But anyway, but I
Speaker 1: don't know. The more I thought about it, it sounds
Speaker 1: like fun, you know, I thought, well, you know, I'll
Speaker 1: bring back the horns, you know, uh, like I like
Speaker 1: I did used on my first, very first solo album,
Speaker 1: and um, and uh, it'll be fun and I'll get
Speaker 1: a chance to play some Paul Butterfield stuff, you know,
Speaker 1: with the horns that nobody ever hears. Uh, electric flag
Speaker 1: stuff that nobody ever hears, you know, nobody's you know,
Speaker 1: and uh, you know, and those two of my own.
Speaker 1: And so we started rehearsing some of my old songs,
Speaker 1: which I haven't literally thought about for thirty forty years.
Speaker 1: I was like, damn, you know, these things are pretty good,
Speaker 1: you know that kind of interesting, you know they I mean,
Speaker 1: the one thing about not being fashionable, you know, ever,
Speaker 1: is that you end up being timeless, you know. And uh,
Speaker 1: and I thought, you know, these things are they're kind
Speaker 1: of like their own genre. You know, this this rock
Speaker 1: meat soul thing you know that I created with south
Speaker 1: Side Johnny, Um, it kinda it holds up in some
Speaker 1: weird way because it was never it was never you know,
Speaker 1: it was never trendy, you know, so so it kind
Speaker 1: of has its own space. And I thought, Man, a
Speaker 1: lot of these songs, and even the subject matter, unfortunately,
Speaker 1: was still relevant, you know, thirty forty years later, you know,
Speaker 1: which is a shame uh in some cases. But Uh,
Speaker 1: I was just like Man, and so I I reconnected
Speaker 1: to my life's work and uh. And I didn't realize
Speaker 1: really that I kind of abandoned it for literally three decades. Uh,
Speaker 1: but I was It was really very very very helpful
Speaker 1: to do that. And uh and then um, one thing
Speaker 1: led to another and another and another, and the same
Speaker 1: band hung in there with me, terrific band, Mark Riblet
Speaker 1: put together for me, and suddenly a whole new album,
Speaker 1: you know, the Soul the Soulfire record was just for fun. Uh,
Speaker 1: songs I've written for other people, you know. I we
Speaker 1: hadn't had nothing. I had nothing to do. Um. You know,
Speaker 1: I was gonna do a TV show and then I
Speaker 1: fell through at the last minute, and then Bruce were
Speaker 1: thinking about touring, but then Bruce decieted to do Broadway,
Speaker 1: you know, and uh, suddenly uh, you know, and nothing
Speaker 1: to do. So I said, well, you know, maybe I
Speaker 1: make a record of of well the blues gig went
Speaker 1: was so good and so much fun. But I thought, damn,
Speaker 1: you know, we should we should, you know, keep this
Speaker 1: together somehow a little bit. And and I'm able to
Speaker 1: do it to a record of songs I've written for
Speaker 1: the people and that and that was so fire. And
Speaker 1: then somebody said I want to see this live, and
Speaker 1: they paid for a tour, and one thing led to another,
Speaker 1: and before you know what, uh, new new songs started
Speaker 1: coming to me. Added a blue and uh it was
Speaker 1: really a gift, man. Summer Sorcery was just a gift
Speaker 1: from the gods were literally and I was like, wow, man,
Speaker 1: you know uh and and and it ended up putting
Speaker 1: out not only those two records, but but a total
Speaker 1: of six album packages in three years. You know, we
Speaker 1: remastered the whole catalog. We put out the Lily Hammer score. Um,
Speaker 1: you know when the live to live albums, you know,
Speaker 1: from the tours, because my life, my live show is
Speaker 1: really um, it's really a show, you know, I mean,
Speaker 1: it's it's it's a it's not a random bunch of songs,
Speaker 1: you know, it's a very thematic show, and so the
Speaker 1: live records are valid uh artistically themselves. So we ended
Speaker 1: up doing six album packages and I was like so
Speaker 1: uh and and touring the world, you know twice. So
Speaker 1: it was kind of good timing to have a quarantine.
Speaker 1: You know. I just went on the road for a
Speaker 1: long time and I reconnected to my work and I
Speaker 1: felt a little closure, you know, I felt a little
Speaker 1: bit of you know what, you know, if some resourceries
Speaker 1: my last where ever, you know, I'm okay with that,
Speaker 1: you know. And so I felt like I had a beginning, middle,
Speaker 1: and an end of the book. And um, you know,
Speaker 1: so use that quarantine to to to write it. Did
Speaker 1: you learn anything about yourself right in this book when
Speaker 1: you saw it all down on paper, to change your
Speaker 1: perspective on any part of your life? You know, it
Speaker 1: really did, because I more or less for forty years now,
Speaker 1: I've been kind of beating myself up a little bit,
Speaker 1: um thinking you know, um, uh, maybe maybe I could
Speaker 1: have done what I did after I left the band. Um,
Speaker 1: if I you know, if I'd been able to stay
Speaker 1: in the band, maybe I could have done both things.
Speaker 1: You know. Uh, you know, I never really really analyzed it.
Speaker 1: I never you know, I don't think about it too much.
Speaker 1: I really don't look look back too often. But in
Speaker 1: the back of my mind I always felt cheese I
Speaker 1: I wish I could have done both things. But when
Speaker 1: I went back and really lived it, and really transported
Speaker 1: myself back and and really lived those days, I realized,
Speaker 1: there's there's no way. People. I don't know how you
Speaker 1: did it without the band. It was really you know,
Speaker 1: and uh. And I realized that I think the one
Speaker 1: of one of the reasons for writing the book, because
Speaker 1: I wanted the book to be useful mostly, you know,
Speaker 1: I mean and uh and and uh and and I
Speaker 1: told I told the editor Ben Greenman, who was a
Speaker 1: terrific editor. I said, listen, just keep me honest here.
Speaker 1: I want to. I want to I want to balance
Speaker 1: three things. You know. Yes, we have to do the narrative, obviously,
Speaker 1: but that's the least interesting part to me. I want
Speaker 1: to make sure we have the history in there, because
Speaker 1: all I missed was the first decade of rock and roll.
Speaker 1: The rest I kind of observed first person, you know,
Speaker 1: So I want to get the history in there for
Speaker 1: the younger generations that may not know how this stuff
Speaker 1: went down. It might be interested in that. And and
Speaker 1: and the third track is is the craft you know,
Speaker 1: all the crafts that I've been involved with, um, you know,
Speaker 1: I mean, and you never stopped learning, of course, But
Speaker 1: but I thought, you know, maybe I could, you know,
Speaker 1: give a couple of observations that might be helpful. So
Speaker 1: I wanted to be useful that way. And and and
Speaker 1: what happens is as I'm as I'm writing it, I realized,
Speaker 1: you know, it's really kind of like two books. You know.
Speaker 1: The first half of the book, Local Kid from Jersey
Speaker 1: makes it to the top of rock and roll, you know,
Speaker 1: you know, and that's a terrific story by itself, that
Speaker 1: really really is. But the second half kind of gets
Speaker 1: more interesting. And I think the themes start to broaden
Speaker 1: when I leave the band. And I wasn't changing jobs
Speaker 1: at that point. I was ending my life, you know,
Speaker 1: That's how it felt. And uh, look literally staring off
Speaker 1: at the edge of the cliff, you know, Uh, nowhere
Speaker 1: to go, no no thoughts as to what I was
Speaker 1: gonna do. And in spite of that, uh, everything I've
Speaker 1: accomplished in my life happened after that. You know, when
Speaker 1: I thought my life was over, and I thought this
Speaker 1: could be helpful with somebody, I think, you know, because
Speaker 1: I think everybody gets disappointed in in in their lives
Speaker 1: and and uh and maybe they think it's over and
Speaker 1: you know, there's no plan B and you've got nowhere
Speaker 1: to go. But if you can find a way to
Speaker 1: move forward somehow, just keep moving forward, uh, and and
Speaker 1: not succumb to the you know, to to giving up
Speaker 1: and to to you know, doing drugs or drinking or
Speaker 1: committing suicide or and I considered all of those things,
Speaker 1: you know, if you could find a way to just um,
Speaker 1: just avoid those those pitfalls and and kind of keep
Speaker 1: moving forward. Destiny has a way of surprising you. And uh.
Speaker 1: And I think I'm a really good example of that,
Speaker 1: you know, because I mean everything I've accomplished in my
Speaker 1: life happened after I thought my life was over, you know,
Speaker 1: And so I thought that that maybe maybe that's gonna
Speaker 1: be useful, you know, maybe you know. So it's those
Speaker 1: kind of things that that motivated me actually write it,
Speaker 1: you know, right to write the book. I liked to
Speaker 1: The subhead of the book was a cautionary tale, which
Speaker 1: I laughed at because to me reading it back seems
Speaker 1: like a life well lived to me. Well, but you know,
Speaker 1: I it's probably a little little couple of a couple
Speaker 1: of nuggets along the way that I picked up, and
Speaker 1: one of which is never leave your power base until
Speaker 1: you have a new one, you know, And I and
Speaker 1: I hope people listen to that, because you know, it
Speaker 1: doesn't matter how powerful you are in that power base.
Speaker 1: And and and you're lucky to have a power base,
Speaker 1: of course, you know in the first place, right uh,
Speaker 1: And you're feeling a certain I don't know, feeling of
Speaker 1: success or a feeling of power, and you go off
Speaker 1: and you leave it behind. It's amazing how quickly, you know,
Speaker 1: you go from being a force of nature two completely irrelevant.
Speaker 1: I mean, it's it's it's shocking how quickly it happens.
Speaker 1: And I think that that's something that everybody should pay
Speaker 1: attention to. You do, no matter how powerful you are,
Speaker 1: no matter how successful you are, man, you better know
Speaker 1: where you're going because things change, you know, things change
Speaker 1: in ways. Do you think you think you think your
Speaker 1: success is locked and concrete or you know, and it's
Speaker 1: not if not, you know? So, Yeah, the title the
Speaker 1: book is such a great title and recorded infatuations. I mean,
Speaker 1: I was thinking about a lot about what it meant
Speaker 1: and why you may have chosen it. And the more
Speaker 1: I thought about it, I thought, that's such a great
Speaker 1: primary motivator for rock and roll, you know, I mean,
Speaker 1: that pent up passion, that yearning, that desire to be seen.
Speaker 1: I mean, maybe that says more about me than it
Speaker 1: does about you in the book title. But but what
Speaker 1: what led you to? Uh to that phrases the title again,
Speaker 1: I'm looking for more universal themes than just a music
Speaker 1: book for music people, you know. Uh, And it's plenty
Speaker 1: of that in there. But but I thought to myself,
Speaker 1: you know, even even somebody like me, who is very
Speaker 1: successful what with the Street, and very successful with sopranos
Speaker 1: and Lilly Hammer, Uh, even successful politically with the Sun
Speaker 1: City project. Um, even somebody like me, most of my
Speaker 1: most personal projects UM never found an audience, you know. Um,
Speaker 1: none of my solo records succeeded, you know, commercially. UM.
Speaker 1: Going back and really re examining them artistically, I wouldn't
Speaker 1: change the thing, tell you truth, you know. I mean,
Speaker 1: I was totally happy with with with everything I did artistically,
Speaker 1: But commercially. Uh, I never had that one hit, and
Speaker 1: which is really you know, a big difference, a big
Speaker 1: difference between no hits and one hit, you know. Uh,
Speaker 1: you know it's nice if you have ten hits or
Speaker 1: twenty hits or thirty hits, but one hit is what
Speaker 1: is what makes the difference to which I never had.
Speaker 1: So so you you are constantly uh struggling to find
Speaker 1: ways of working, you know, uh, finding finding a patron,
Speaker 1: finding a deal. You constantly it's one long negotiations, it's
Speaker 1: one long audition. It's you know, it's a constant sort
Speaker 1: of fight. And I you know, instead of me spending
Speaker 1: you know, of my time artists on art and creativity
Speaker 1: and ten percent on business, it's the opposite, you know.
Speaker 1: And and I mean I'm being kind to myself saying
Speaker 1: I spent ten percent on on the creativity. It's probably
Speaker 1: more like one percent, you know. I mean, as you know,
Speaker 1: spend every day, all day looking for money to pay
Speaker 1: for this overhead that I've created with you know, the
Speaker 1: radio format and the radio stations, and the record company
Speaker 1: and and you know, and and the foundation and this
Speaker 1: and that. You know, it's one of these things. Now
Speaker 1: pay for themselves, but a lot of them, don't you know.
Speaker 1: Uh never made money with the radio show. It's the
Speaker 1: most one of the most popular radio shows in the
Speaker 1: world and one of thost you know. I have three
Speaker 1: stations on serious satellite now and um, you know we're
Speaker 1: on We're in a hundred countries with with the syndicated show.
Speaker 1: And it loses money, you know, And what are you
Speaker 1: gonna do? I mean, people depend on it. They you know,
Speaker 1: we have the only rock and soul format in the world.
Speaker 1: I mean, if we disappear, forget it, you know, we
Speaker 1: we we We've introduced over a thousand new bands in
Speaker 1: twenty years, thousands, you know. Uh you know, and and
Speaker 1: they are gonna have nowhere to go if we disappear, literally,
Speaker 1: uh you know. So it's it's too important, you know,
Speaker 1: it's it's too big to fail. As the espression goes,
Speaker 1: it's it's too popular and fail, let's put it that way.
Speaker 1: And um, so you know, these things continue to be
Speaker 1: a struggle. So so you know, most of my most
Speaker 1: personal work, um, has not found an audience. And so
Speaker 1: um that's among the unfactored you know, the the unrequited infatuations. Uh.
Speaker 1: But again, I think most people experience that and uh. UM.
Speaker 1: I was trying to emphasize the universal themes. Like I said,
Speaker 1: the second half of the book, UM goes from you know,
Speaker 1: the music thing to a bigger search for identity, a
Speaker 1: search for purpose in life, a search for spiritual enlightenment,
Speaker 1: you know. Uh. And those are the bigger themes that
Speaker 1: I think everybody can relate to relate to and uh
Speaker 1: and I wanted to do that. I wanted it to
Speaker 1: be more, you know, a bigger book than just for
Speaker 1: music people. I mean speaking of of themes, I mean,
Speaker 1: the book was was so cinematic. I mean, you know,
Speaker 1: I don't want to spoil up for anybody, but I
Speaker 1: mean opening with with you know you in the back
Speaker 1: of a of a car being being smuggled in the
Speaker 1: South Africa. I mean I could just see it playing
Speaker 1: out like a movie, which begs the question I wanted
Speaker 1: to ask you, what would be the theme song to
Speaker 1: UH to this book if this if there was you know,
Speaker 1: if you're putting together a soundtrack to your life, what
Speaker 1: do you feel like we kick things off or you
Speaker 1: know something's up? I don't know, man, you know, uh.
Speaker 1: Every album has its has its UH has its themes,
Speaker 1: you know, So it depends on what mood you're in,
Speaker 1: what phays of your life. I'm not sure and any
Speaker 1: one thing sums it all up. I mean maybe, um,
Speaker 1: you know, maybe until the Good Has Gone something like that,
Speaker 1: you know from my first album, you know, uh, or
Speaker 1: soul Fire for my one of my recent records, you know, uh,
Speaker 1: something like that. Something uh, you know, solidarity maybe something,
Speaker 1: you know, one of the more universal type of themes.
Speaker 1: You know. Man's are all good choices, I know. You
Speaker 1: you talk in your book about seeing the Beatles on
Speaker 1: on Sullivan and February sixty four is a you know,
Speaker 1: major turning point in your life, a musical big bang,
Speaker 1: and not just because of their sound and their look,
Speaker 1: but the fact that they were a band. And I
Speaker 1: feel like that's something that a lot of people miss
Speaker 1: now that you know, talk a little bit more about
Speaker 1: just the importance of a band and what that meant
Speaker 1: in nineteen sixty four and how transformative that was to
Speaker 1: two young people. It's it's it's it's a little little
Speaker 1: hard to imagine. But there were no bands. Uh, there wasn't.
Speaker 1: You didn't see four or five guys singing and playing
Speaker 1: you know, you didn't see it. Uh, if you went
Speaker 1: to your high school dancing was an instrumental group, you know,
Speaker 1: if you went to somebody's adding, you know, they were
Speaker 1: older guys, you know, Frankie Yankovic do and polka stuff.
Speaker 1: Well yeah, you know, yeah, but but you you know,
Speaker 1: so suddenly here's four guys and soon to be followed
Speaker 1: by fifteen other bands that are four or five guys.
Speaker 1: Um and introducing the band idea um, which was a
Speaker 1: totally different communication. Uh. Two people like me, especially who
Speaker 1: really didn't fit in anywhere. You know, I was not
Speaker 1: really enjoying the options I was being offered by society.
Speaker 1: I just you know, I didn't see where my future
Speaker 1: was at all. And suddenly here was a glimpse at
Speaker 1: what could be the future. And you know, if you're
Speaker 1: a solo act, it's all about me, me, me, you know. Uh. Um,
Speaker 1: you either fall in love with me or you don't.
Speaker 1: You know, And um band Uh just was a different communication.
Speaker 1: It's it's friendship, it's the family, it's the team, the posse,
Speaker 1: the gang, however you want to put it. Um. You know,
Speaker 1: guys working towards the common goal together. You knows, it's
Speaker 1: all kinds of a whole different texture to it. And
Speaker 1: uh and that that's what appealed to me, you know.
Speaker 1: Uh uh and not even the show business aspects of it,
Speaker 1: because I want a big fan of show business at
Speaker 1: that time. Uh you know, when you're I mean, I
Speaker 1: like it now, but but back then, you're building your
Speaker 1: identity and you are what you like, and um, you're searching.
Speaker 1: Uh and and and I always connect the Beatles, um
Speaker 1: with the Rolling Stones, which came four months later. They
Speaker 1: came four months later and a different variety show called
Speaker 1: Hollywood Palace and uh Dino, Yeah, and I witnessed my
Speaker 1: past and my future there. Dean Martin relentlessly made fun
Speaker 1: of them, uh, you know, as he was supposed to,
Speaker 1: you know, which I didn't have a problem with, you know,
Speaker 1: Uh Keith Richards, you know, don't bring it up to
Speaker 1: his day because you know, he still piste off about it.
Speaker 1: But uh but I was like, of course they're gonna
Speaker 1: make fun of them, you know. Uh. But what was
Speaker 1: important to me, you know, because the Beatles were we
Speaker 1: were we we discovered them halfway through the career and
Speaker 1: and they were extremely good. By that, I mean, they
Speaker 1: were they were perfect okay. I mean the harmony was amazing,
Speaker 1: you know, the hair or the clothes. You know, they
Speaker 1: were witty and and and conversation was and um and
Speaker 1: the Stones were much more casual. You know, they made
Speaker 1: it look easier than it was, uh or whatever they
Speaker 1: felt like, you know, they were they were just kind
Speaker 1: of uh, you know, uh Simeon, they were Neanderthals. You know,
Speaker 1: they were like, you know, just missing thropes. You know,
Speaker 1: they just had this thing about them, you know that
Speaker 1: was different and uh and nothing to do with show
Speaker 1: business and and and I said it a million times,
Speaker 1: but the fact that Mick Jagger didn't smile made a
Speaker 1: big difference to me, because that took it out of
Speaker 1: show business. Now you're into a lifestyle. You know. Whatever
Speaker 1: these guys were doing, it was it was tribal, you know,
Speaker 1: it was primitive. It was something that uh didn't belong
Speaker 1: in show business. Really, you know. Now they were about
Speaker 1: to transform show business and bring show business to that really.
Speaker 1: I mean one of the great extraordinary achievements by the
Speaker 1: Rolling Stones, which they don't get enough credit for, is
Speaker 1: crossing over to the pop world. They were never a
Speaker 1: pop band, you know, but they managed to cross over
Speaker 1: for forty years and have hits, you know, so they
Speaker 1: were kind of dragon show business to them, you know
Speaker 1: what I mean. They were transforming show business for what
Speaker 1: our idea of show business was. And the whole British
Speaker 1: invasion kind of did that starting with the Beatles. Um so,
Speaker 1: so all of a sudden we had a band culture.
Speaker 1: And uh, it wasn't just for those of us who
Speaker 1: were in a band either. I mean, uh, yeah, you
Speaker 1: would occasionally go to a driving you know, driving theaters
Speaker 1: were big, but if you didn't go to drive in
Speaker 1: you were going out to see a band, you know,
Speaker 1: or you know, or you're playing in the band. But
Speaker 1: but uh, but even even regular people were going out
Speaker 1: to see bands all the time. It became a band
Speaker 1: culture from the Beatles and from the British invasion, you know,
Speaker 1: completely transformed, because it didn't exist before that. I mean
Speaker 1: literally didn't exist, you know, and boom here, all of
Speaker 1: a sudden, everybody in a band or you're going to
Speaker 1: see a band or you know, and that and that
Speaker 1: would last, uh you know, uh in the rock world,
Speaker 1: you know, to this day. I mean there's not really
Speaker 1: any solo rock guys. I mean, Bob Dylan probably the
Speaker 1: only exception, you know, everybody else. It's really it's really
Speaker 1: a band culture. You know, it might be somebody into
Speaker 1: somebody's you know, but it's still it's still a band vibe.
Speaker 1: You know that that that rock uh you know that
Speaker 1: that makes it rock rock as opposed to pop. You know,
Speaker 1: so that that never changed, that kind of that kind
Speaker 1: of was that change was was kind of permanent. M
Speaker 1: Did you see the Beatles? You saw him at sh right? Yeah?
Speaker 1: The second time? Yea, oh wait? Was that the second one?
Speaker 1: Was that? The one with the remains is one of
Speaker 1: the opening acts, you know? Um, I don't think so. Um.
Speaker 1: I don't remember the opening acts too much. Uh. I
Speaker 1: think it was the red rubber ball. Oh circle, the circle, Yeah,
Speaker 1: and uh some kind of um, some kind of R
Speaker 1: and B group. I don't think it was. I don't
Speaker 1: think it was King Curtis. Uh think Curs might have
Speaker 1: been on the first first one. It was some kind
Speaker 1: of you know, R and B type of group. And uh,
Speaker 1: I don't know. I really don't remember. I should remember,
Speaker 1: and I don't. I don't think the girl was. I
Speaker 1: don't think it was the Runts or the Chiffons. I
Speaker 1: mixed up you know, I mix up the two the
Speaker 1: Touchet Stadium shows, but I don't. I don't remember. I
Speaker 1: don't remember really, but I think, you know, the circle,
Speaker 1: I think it was and uh, I'm pretty sure the
Speaker 1: remains and the Ronets for the first time, and maybe
Speaker 1: King Curtis too, something like that. But I remember, I
Speaker 1: remember is they sounded great to me. And I'm like,
Speaker 1: in a second balcony, uh, you know, the speakers are
Speaker 1: like uh, you know, toothpicks and uh, they must have
Speaker 1: been pointed right at me. I don't know what to say.
Speaker 1: Everybody everybody was like, well, I could hear was screaming.
Speaker 1: I mean, well, first of all, I think the screaming
Speaker 1: was less the second time, and and and you know
Speaker 1: there was actually it was not sold out actually, um
Speaker 1: so it was you know, it was on the way
Speaker 1: was on the way down. But still there was still screaming.
Speaker 1: But uh, but I don't know. They sounded like the
Speaker 1: record to me. Speaking of seeing them live, I was
Speaker 1: lucky enough to be in the audience in in London
Speaker 1: when you and Bruce and Paul played a slightly abbreviated
Speaker 1: UH set in UH in Hyde Park. That must have
Speaker 1: been I know Uh, playing with with Paul as A
Speaker 1: as a pivotal scene in you in your book. That
Speaker 1: must be such a great just full circle went for you. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that was real closure. That that's you know, that was
Speaker 1: the thing. Uh. But every time, you know, we've done
Speaker 1: it now three times, and uh, it's always fun. You know,
Speaker 1: he's just a fun guy, and he's just like he's
Speaker 1: just the real thing. You know, he's he's you know,
Speaker 1: he likes to be one of the guys, you know
Speaker 1: what i mean, you know, and he's a lot of
Speaker 1: courage I mean, i mean coming on stage of the
Speaker 1: Eastreet Band was fantastic. And then he invited me and
Speaker 1: Bruce Hall stage with him at the Garden Well, which
Speaker 1: was again it was so much fun. But him coming
Speaker 1: on my stage, Uh, that's something else. You know now
Speaker 1: we're talking about, you know, something that's just profound and
Speaker 1: you know so much so that you became a big
Speaker 1: part of the book. But yeah, he's just he's just
Speaker 1: doing a great and and and courageous. And he came
Speaker 1: up stage with me no rehearsal, not knowing what we're
Speaker 1: gonna do. You know, Uh, that takes some balls, man,
Speaker 1: you know, telling you right now, and a lot of
Speaker 1: a lot of faith in me. And I really appreciated
Speaker 1: that kind of blind faith and uh, you know, encourage.
Speaker 1: You know, he's a he's the he's the real thing.
Speaker 1: Did you enjoy Get Back the uh documentary? Yeah? Yeah,
Speaker 1: And I'm glad other people are enjoying it, Um, you know,
Speaker 1: I I uh, I had a couple on an odd
Speaker 1: reaction to it a little a little bit, you know,
Speaker 1: but but you know, it's great, and I'm glad, you know,
Speaker 1: I think most people are really really enjoying it. And
Speaker 1: uh and that's what counts, you know, uh a little bit,
Speaker 1: you know, in some case, in some ways, it's a
Speaker 1: little bit more than you need to know, you know.
Speaker 1: I like I like the fantasy, you know, and the
Speaker 1: illusion part of what we do. I think that's more
Speaker 1: important than reality. Okay, you know what I mean, that's
Speaker 1: just me, you know, I you know, I don't need
Speaker 1: to know everything, you know. I like I like the
Speaker 1: way show business used to handle, uh, these kinds of things,
Speaker 1: you know, back in the old days, when you know,
Speaker 1: it was all good news, you know, I mean that
Speaker 1: was the publicist job, was to make sure it was
Speaker 1: all good news. And Andrew look Goldham, uh single handedly
Speaker 1: invented bad publicity, you know, and uh, I'm sure he
Speaker 1: regrets to now. The Stones had some good ones, The
Speaker 1: Stones had some good good bad publicity, yeah yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1: But the but the thing was, you see, they could
Speaker 1: back it up, you know. They He may have been,
Speaker 1: you know, getting attention for them, but when he got
Speaker 1: the attention and people showed up, you know, they delivered.
Speaker 1: That's a difference. You know. He didn't always create an
Speaker 1: entire world that would depend on bad publicity as its content.
Speaker 1: You know, the bad publicity would become the content of
Speaker 1: the whole modern world now, you know, and when people
Speaker 1: tune in, it's just morbid fascination because nothing is going
Speaker 1: to be delivered. You're not gonna get any any insightful
Speaker 1: content anymore from this stuff. It's just all bad news.
Speaker 1: And uh and that became trendy somehow, so it's weird, weird.
Speaker 1: But in the old days, you know, when we were
Speaker 1: into dues to the British invasion, we all we thought
Speaker 1: they were all best friends, you know, and at one
Speaker 1: time and they all were, you know, but um, you know,
Speaker 1: they started having problems with each other pretty early on,
Speaker 1: all of them virtually all of them, you know, uh
Speaker 1: where the Towns and Adultery or the Davis brothers or
Speaker 1: you know MC and Keith or this one and that one.
Speaker 1: You know, they all started having problems with each other,
Speaker 1: and um, and I don't want to know that, you know,
Speaker 1: I really don't want to know that. Um, because we
Speaker 1: bought we bought the illusion, and like I said, it
Speaker 1: wasn't an illusion at first, you know, and I think
Speaker 1: it was legitimate. But we were we were best friends
Speaker 1: and and still are, you know, because that was That's
Speaker 1: part of the gig, you know what I mean, that
Speaker 1: the bands are communicating friendship. That's why I wanted to
Speaker 1: do it. You know. So the concept of being in
Speaker 1: a band with people you hate, this kind of runs
Speaker 1: contrary at all things. Yeah, you know, it makes no
Speaker 1: sense at all to me, you know, but at some point,
Speaker 1: I guess they they just had so much success that
Speaker 1: they kind of hung in there with each other, you know, Ramons.
Speaker 1: I mean, you know you name it right, uh, you
Speaker 1: know clash. I mean, you know, I don't know if
Speaker 1: any band, uh very few bands that that didn't have
Speaker 1: this problem. I mean, I don't know, maybe you too
Speaker 1: might be uh on a few, but uh, you know,
Speaker 1: for the most part, it's uh, it's a bit of
Speaker 1: a it's a bit of an illusion that that I
Speaker 1: found to be extremely inspirational and motivational and important. So,
Speaker 1: you know, when things get a little bit ugly um
Speaker 1: and nasty weird, I really don't want to know about it.
Speaker 1: You know, there was a quote you gave and I'm
Speaker 1: trying to remember I think it was in your book.
Speaker 1: It was really beautiful. I I'm I'm paraphrasing something to
Speaker 1: the effect of art is illusion and delusion and symbolism
Speaker 1: and it appeals to your imagination. I hope I'm getting
Speaker 1: that roughly right. But it was something beautiful. I thought
Speaker 1: you said. It reminds me of what you're hitting on now. Well, yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean it's I might have been part of the
Speaker 1: our our teacher rock dot org music history curriculum perhaps,
Speaker 1: you know where I'm talking about the fact that kids
Speaker 1: bring these gifts with them, You know that they bring
Speaker 1: you know, the reason why we want to integrate art
Speaker 1: into the into the education system is because aren't is
Speaker 1: the way in for these kids who bring with them
Speaker 1: curiosity and imagination and and and uh uh instinct and emotions.
Speaker 1: You don't have to teach anybody that. You know, they
Speaker 1: come with all those gripts, and typical school um ignores
Speaker 1: them or squashes them. And and our and our whole
Speaker 1: philosophy is let's encourage that, and let's connect with that,
Speaker 1: and let's use it. Let's use it. Uh. So our our, our,
Speaker 1: our integration of art into the public education system is
Speaker 1: not after school. It's not an extra class. It's integrating
Speaker 1: art into science, into math, into engineering and into technology,
Speaker 1: you know, as as as an essential part of those disciplines.
Speaker 1: So you know, I think that's the future of art
Speaker 1: in terms of how useful it can be. And uh,
Speaker 1: and that's I think that's probably where you read that.
Speaker 1: And I mean thinking about there a lot of moments
Speaker 1: in your book and your life, um where it felt
Speaker 1: like you might turn away from music. I mean, you
Speaker 1: spent years working, you know, on road construction. Was there
Speaker 1: a moment when you thought, Okay, I think this is
Speaker 1: kind of work out this, this, this music music is
Speaker 1: is my path? Was there do you have any kind
Speaker 1: of uh sort of lightning bolt moment where that that
Speaker 1: kind of made itself known to you. I'm still waiting
Speaker 1: for that I'm hoping next. Um. I mean it's a
Speaker 1: little bit complicated, but basically, um we we we finally
Speaker 1: uh the Darkness on the Edge of Town tour, while
Speaker 1: not successful, started to have momentum, you know, starting to
Speaker 1: feel like we just maybe past the point where we're
Speaker 1: not going to succeed, you know. And and then the River.
Speaker 1: The River was that moment for when when we had
Speaker 1: the hit single and the hit album and you're selling
Speaker 1: out of means and at that point you've arrived, you know. Now,
Speaker 1: I only enjoyed that moment for a year, and then
Speaker 1: I left the band, you know, which you know, on
Speaker 1: the great career moves of all time, as I go
Speaker 1: into great detail about, uh, but but that was the
Speaker 1: only moment really, and it was brief where I felt
Speaker 1: successful and you know, both artistically and commercially, you know,
Speaker 1: and that's you know, we're always trying to balance that
Speaker 1: art and commerce thing. But as it turns out, my
Speaker 1: life ends up being the triumph of art overcomers. You know.
Speaker 1: I'm still able to somehow make records and tour and uh,
Speaker 1: you know, nothing I do makes money, so it's uh,
Speaker 1: it's kind of its own, uh, its own sort of
Speaker 1: success in some bizarre way, but they may. You know,
Speaker 1: For me, what's important is the work getting done somehow.
Speaker 1: And uh so yeah, I never really uh um um.
Speaker 1: And even in the acting thing, especially with Lily Hammer.
Speaker 1: I mean, when I became a writer on Lily Hammer,
Speaker 1: you know, the first thing I did, but I said,
Speaker 1: you know, the guy's gonna open a club so we
Speaker 1: can put music in it. You know, I'm gonna put
Speaker 1: all my bands on my record label in it, and
Speaker 1: you know, and and others uh and uh So the
Speaker 1: music thing, Um, even if I'm not doing it, you know,
Speaker 1: full time. You know, even if I'm acting and writing
Speaker 1: and producing TV, the music thing will always play an
Speaker 1: important role. Um. The only reason why I did No
Speaker 1: Sopranos is because David Chase was just so into it himself.
Speaker 1: So you know that's his favorite thing. Was was, you know,
Speaker 1: being his own music supervisor really you know, and um
Speaker 1: to this day he asked him, you know what's his
Speaker 1: favorite thing. He'll tell you, you you know, doing the music. Um.
Speaker 1: So he'd occasionally come to me if he needed something new,
Speaker 1: you know, because uh once uh uh Adrianna opened the
Speaker 1: club you know in in in Sopranos. Uh you know,
Speaker 1: occasionally we need a band, you know, playing, so he'd
Speaker 1: come to me for something like that. But mostly he
Speaker 1: did he did almost all the music. Uh. But when
Speaker 1: I did Lily Hammer, I did all the music and uh,
Speaker 1: and that was that's fun. That is that is the
Speaker 1: fun part, you know what, one of the most post
Speaker 1: fun parts of of producing TV. So so even when
Speaker 1: even when I was acting, you know, I still had
Speaker 1: the music thing was still part of my life and uh,
Speaker 1: you know, I'm sure it always will be. I think
Speaker 1: I've read somewhere that you've got a lot of scripts
Speaker 1: in the can. What's the latest with those? I mean,
Speaker 1: reading your book, I just said, it's it's a natural,
Speaker 1: it's so cinematic. Of course you've got a bunch of
Speaker 1: scripts in the works, But what's the latest with those?
Speaker 1: I haven't connected yet, you know. Um. I went down
Speaker 1: the road with a couple of them pretty far, but
Speaker 1: nothing yet. And at this point, you know, the last
Speaker 1: year or so, um, well a lot ever since we
Speaker 1: did Letter to you, which was right before the quarantine,
Speaker 1: it's like two years already, right, jeezus, um um. At
Speaker 1: that point you know what I mean, I was like,
Speaker 1: I can't really commit to anything. So, um, I'm gonna
Speaker 1: pull back a little bit here. I want to give
Speaker 1: Bruce first priority if he wants to go out, which
Speaker 1: still being decided. I'd better be decided soon. Um. But
Speaker 1: if he wants to go out, you know, I'm gonna
Speaker 1: do that. Uh, you know, have to and I'll wait.
Speaker 1: I'll wait another two years, which was what the tour
Speaker 1: would probably be, uh, and then get back on TV.
Speaker 1: But I want to get back on TV. I really
Speaker 1: miss it. I really do. When I and I do,
Speaker 1: I have five scripts and treatments. Yeah, yeah, I got
Speaker 1: lots of lots of ideas, you know, and I think, uh,
Speaker 1: and I think I know what I'm doing too. I mean,
Speaker 1: you know, I mean I watch a lot of TV,
Speaker 1: and uh, I'm not crazy about much of it, you
Speaker 1: know that I see and I think I know why,
Speaker 1: you know what I mean. So I there's a certain
Speaker 1: certain things going on I think on most of the
Speaker 1: new TV shows that I think, I think, I I
Speaker 1: think I know why people are not you know, there's
Speaker 1: there's not that many hits anymore. You know, There's get
Speaker 1: a lot of quantity, you know, but it's not a
Speaker 1: lot of real quality where people are dedicated to a show.
Speaker 1: You know, you're know seeing that too often, and I
Speaker 1: think I know why, But we'll see, we'll see. Oh
Speaker 1: that's so excited. Of course You've got your radio show,
Speaker 1: which I mean you mentioned earlier, is introduced over a
Speaker 1: thousand bands. I mean it is a huge inspiration to
Speaker 1: me personally. I had a college radio show which is
Speaker 1: basically a a pale imitation of your show, playing you know, obscure,
Speaker 1: you know, Mersey beat, garage band, girl group stuff. Um,
Speaker 1: I have I have a question for You're gonna hang
Speaker 1: up on me when I ask you this question. I
Speaker 1: I play this game in my heads sometimes when you know,
Speaker 1: long car drives or something. I'm curious what what your
Speaker 1: answer to be? What do you think is is the
Speaker 1: the best year in rock and roll history? Oh? Yeah,
Speaker 1: that comes up, you know, through the years. It's a
Speaker 1: tough one. Um, I think you can make a case
Speaker 1: for uh, either you know, sixty five, sixty six, or
Speaker 1: sixty seven. Um, you know they're all a little different,
Speaker 1: but I think you can make a case for each
Speaker 1: of those, each one of those years. You know. For me,
Speaker 1: I don't know. I love the psychedelic stuff, I really do,
Speaker 1: so I might go that way, but uh, sixty six
Speaker 1: is known as the garage rock year where you had
Speaker 1: a lot of the so called one hit wonders you
Speaker 1: know happen, you know, the most of the uh you know,
Speaker 1: the Friday on my Mind and the talk Talked and
Speaker 1: the and the you know, journey to the Center of
Speaker 1: the mind and uh uh elevators and ain't got nothing
Speaker 1: yet then yeah, you know what I mean, those kind
Speaker 1: of you know, psychotic reactions and uh you know, dirty
Speaker 1: water and you know, you know a lot of those
Speaker 1: nuggets basically the nuggets that that uh, you're arguable. But
Speaker 1: that for me, even one of those three years, Oh man,
Speaker 1: min I'm a I'm a sixty six guy myself. That's yeah.
Speaker 1: I mean, stand standal certain for elevators of seeds, not
Speaker 1: to mention, you know, pet sounds and Blonde on Blonde
Speaker 1: and Parsley Stages, married time, I mean, go on and
Speaker 1: on exactly. Yeah. Yeah, it's quite a good year. And
Speaker 1: but you know, you can make an argument for each
Speaker 1: one of those. Oh man, I sorry, I could talk
Speaker 1: to you all day. I want to take up too
Speaker 1: much more of your time. I guess my place to
Speaker 1: close on. I mean You're such an inspiration because because
Speaker 1: you do so much. I mean you you are are
Speaker 1: active in in creating music and helping other people share
Speaker 1: their music, and helping young people starting out as kids
Speaker 1: trying to learn an instrument, trying to help enrich these
Speaker 1: arts programs, fighting for political justice. I guess my question is,
Speaker 1: I mean, what keeps you hungry? You know, I mean,
Speaker 1: even just preparing to speak to you today, I must
Speaker 1: have seen You've done thirty interviews for your new book.
Speaker 1: It seems like you have just the most tireless work ethic.
Speaker 1: What keeps you excited? Um? I think everything I do,
Speaker 1: you know, I'm not sure there's any one thing, but
Speaker 1: I like, you know, I I love everything I do.
Speaker 1: I'm very lucky. I mean not only am I in
Speaker 1: the luckiest generation. I think I'm the luckiest guy in
Speaker 1: the lucktion generation. You know. Uh, this happened to be
Speaker 1: in the right place at the right time, you know,
Speaker 1: with uh, with with Sopranos, and and then and then
Speaker 1: you know, we were we were the first show on
Speaker 1: Netflix with Lily Hammer, you know, making history again. Um
Speaker 1: happened to make that move on South Africa at a
Speaker 1: time when we were able to do it. You couldn't
Speaker 1: do it now, I wouldn't do it, you know. So
Speaker 1: um some things have had good timing, you know, some
Speaker 1: good timing, and uh, you know, I don't know. Um,
Speaker 1: I just kind of like I like creating and uh
Speaker 1: there's nothing more fun than that, you know, they're just creating.
Speaker 1: You know. I want to I want to do some
Speaker 1: TV shows you know that I have in my head.
Speaker 1: And uh, I got a couple of movies in my
Speaker 1: head and and uh, uh you know, I like I
Speaker 1: like presenting, you know, a touring thing. You know, we
Speaker 1: used to do a touring thing with Wicked Cool where
Speaker 1: we would have um, four bands touring the country, one
Speaker 1: from each generation. You know. Now we' you know, there's
Speaker 1: even more generations now, but you know we'd have a
Speaker 1: sixties band and seventies ban, eighties ban, and nineties band,
Speaker 1: you know. And I thought that was really cool and
Speaker 1: we had a way of having that funded by sponsors,
Speaker 1: and uh, you know, I like to do more and
Speaker 1: more more the live things. I like producing live stuff,
Speaker 1: which I very rarely do. You know. I've done a
Speaker 1: few things in my life, I mean most probably my
Speaker 1: Broadway show was the thing I'm probably most proud of artistically,
Speaker 1: but you get a chance to use all of it,
Speaker 1: you know what I mean. I like, I like using
Speaker 1: all of it. Yes, I love music, but it's this
Speaker 1: one part of of the big picture. You know. I
Speaker 1: love I love the set design, I like I love lighting,
Speaker 1: I love wardrobe, I love choreography. You know, I I
Speaker 1: like you know, so, um, you know, I kind of
Speaker 1: missed my you know, my ideal gig would have been
Speaker 1: a more of a diagole or uh mob fosse or
Speaker 1: I think that's what I should have been. You know,
Speaker 1: I kind of went sideways with the rock and roll thing.
Speaker 1: But uh, you know, so I I enjoy uh, I
Speaker 1: enjoyed the multiple you know, the multiple art forms coming together,
Speaker 1: you know what I mean? That to me is is
Speaker 1: what it's all about, um, which was which is why
Speaker 1: you know I'm drawing to TV or movie because you
Speaker 1: get to combine all of those art forms, you know
Speaker 1: what I mean. You get to combine you know, the
Speaker 1: art design and and and wardrobe and you know and
Speaker 1: and and and music and you know, uh, cinematography and
Speaker 1: all of those a little different disciplines you know, coming
Speaker 1: together to make this incredible art form. So I really
Speaker 1: haven't done as much of that as I would like,
Speaker 1: so I probably would do more of that if I could,
Speaker 1: uh if. I can't wait to see what what you
Speaker 1: have in the works. Thank you so much for your
Speaker 1: time today and especially your music and just all you've done.
Speaker 1: I absolutely adored the book. I can't wait for for
Speaker 1: more people to check it out. Thank you so so much,
Speaker 1: Thank you much, and great talkus you We hope you
Speaker 1: enjoyed this episode of Inside the Studio, a production of
Speaker 1: I Heart Radio. For more episodes of Inside the Studio
Speaker 1: or other fantastic shows, check out the I Heart Radio app.
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