WEBVTT - Yolk with Doak 11: Michigan Golf

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<v Speaker 1>Welcome back to another edition of The Yoke with Doak.

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<v Speaker 1>In today's episode, Tom and I discussed Michigan golf with

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<v Speaker 1>longtime Renaissance golf design associate Don Placik. As a reminder,

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<v Speaker 1>if you're interested in learning more about golf course architecture,

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<v Speaker 1>check out Tom's books, The Little Red Book on Golf

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<v Speaker 1>Course Architecture and The Confidential Guides. Now here's the latest

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<v Speaker 1>episode of The Yoke with Doake.

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<v Speaker 2>Tom Dolk is back and as usual, he's not holding back.

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<v Speaker 2>But don't toss the Yolk and the famously candid Oak

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<v Speaker 2>doesn't pull any punches. How do I make natural looking contour?

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<v Speaker 2>Hire the biggest pool in the village and told them

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<v Speaker 2>to get flat first?

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<v Speaker 1>Overrated, underrated, rough, terribly overrated over the years. If you

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<v Speaker 1>were going to split ten rounds of golf in Michigan

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<v Speaker 1>and you can't play any course more than twice, how would.

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<v Speaker 2>It go in all of Michigan including private clubs.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, we'll do this for private and public because I'll

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<v Speaker 1>take the Michigan course Michigan golf trip.

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<v Speaker 2>Question also okay, and I should I should preface my

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<v Speaker 2>answer to this question with the I've been playing all

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<v Speaker 2>over the world the last few years for my book,

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<v Speaker 2>and I barely played any golf in Michigan. You know,

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<v Speaker 2>a lot of the courses in Detroit I played with

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<v Speaker 2>Fred Muller like twenty years ago, and I really haven't

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<v Speaker 2>played very many of them since then. It's just I

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<v Speaker 2>stopped through Detroit Airport a whole lot. But I don't

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<v Speaker 2>play golf in Detroit hardly ever, So I might not

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<v Speaker 2>be the best or most up to date guy to

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<v Speaker 2>answer this question, but I do have my favorites. So

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<v Speaker 2>if I just have to distribute ten rounds and it's

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<v Speaker 2>like any course public or private, I'm definitely playing Crystal

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<v Speaker 2>Downs twice, which fortunately I get to do anyway as

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<v Speaker 2>a member. I'm definitely playing Oakland Hills twice. I think

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<v Speaker 2>that's one of the best golf courses in the world

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<v Speaker 2>because it's got a great set of greens. They're hard,

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<v Speaker 2>but I love that set of greens. So I'm gonna

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<v Speaker 2>give that twice. Who I'll give the Loop twice because

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<v Speaker 2>it's not the same golf course one each way. So

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<v Speaker 2>that's now I'm up to six, and now I've got

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<v Speaker 2>to think about, what are the four other places that

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<v Speaker 2>I really want to get in there. One is Belvidere

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<v Speaker 2>and Charlevoi, where we've consulted a little bit. Used to

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<v Speaker 2>play the Michigan Amateur on it every year. It's a

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<v Speaker 2>summer club. They've got a membership, but the membership's only

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<v Speaker 2>around for like a couple months in the middle of summer.

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<v Speaker 2>The rest of the time you can get on it

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<v Speaker 2>pretty easily. You know. It's just a nice rolling piece

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<v Speaker 2>of farmland that they turned into a low key golf course,

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<v Speaker 2>but again, really good set of greens and just a

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<v Speaker 2>really low key place. That's what more courses in northern

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<v Speaker 2>Michigan should be like, and unfortunately they aren't very much

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<v Speaker 2>like that at all. After that, the Dunes Club in

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<v Speaker 2>New Buffalo just barely in Michigan only nine holes. Maybe

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<v Speaker 2>that's only a half half, but I don't know if

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<v Speaker 2>there's another nine home. Of course I can stick in here.

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<v Speaker 1>Somebody else is a nine of somewhere around the front

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<v Speaker 1>nine out Lost Dunes.

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<v Speaker 2>We'll make that number eighth. You know, I hate to

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<v Speaker 2>I don't. I have a lot of fun at Lost Dunes,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, it's it was one of the first private

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<v Speaker 2>clubs I've built, and I've gotten to go back there

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<v Speaker 2>a lot because it's close to home, and it's you know,

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<v Speaker 2>some people don't like it because the greens are really wild.

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<v Speaker 2>But but once you know the golf course, it's a

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<v Speaker 2>really interesting golf course. You always have to think about

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<v Speaker 2>which side can I miss on and still make par?

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<v Speaker 2>And it's not that simple. You know, you have to

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<v Speaker 2>know the golf course to know that. But the Dunes Club,

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<v Speaker 2>which my Kaiser built before. You know, I saw the

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<v Speaker 2>Dunes Club when it was brand new, and I was like,

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<v Speaker 2>who built this? And it wasn't just who was the architecture,

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<v Speaker 2>It's like who who wanted to do this little nine

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<v Speaker 2>hole golf course there? And a couple of people I knew,

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<v Speaker 2>said Mike Kaiser. And then you know when I heard

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<v Speaker 2>he was looking at something in Oregon. That's that's how

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<v Speaker 2>I knew I wanted to work for Mike Kaiser because

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<v Speaker 2>that golf course was pretty outside the box for what

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<v Speaker 2>was getting built in in America and in miss Get

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<v Speaker 2>in particular, fifteen twenty years ago. That's twenty five years ago,

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<v Speaker 2>because my son was like a newborn when we were

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<v Speaker 2>when we stopped in to look so cool place. So

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<v Speaker 2>I'm up to eight.

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<v Speaker 1>Yet two rounds left. I'm trying to down your next.

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<v Speaker 2>I'm trying to think what else, you know. I've played

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<v Speaker 2>a lot of the other courses near Detroit once or twice.

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<v Speaker 2>I would say my next favorite was Franklin Hills, and

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<v Speaker 2>I've not played Franklin Hills since they restored it ten

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<v Speaker 2>years ago or fifteen years ago, whenever that was. It

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<v Speaker 2>was a great you know, it's not far from Oakland Hills.

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<v Speaker 2>It's very under the radar course because there's a Jewish

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<v Speaker 2>club and they never hosted any big tournaments or anything

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<v Speaker 2>like that. But a really good piece of land for golf.

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<v Speaker 2>So I would say there, and as much as anything

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<v Speaker 2>because I'm curious to see how well the restoration turned out.

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<v Speaker 1>I heard they have a cool volcano green there.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, there's a there's a little short part four like uh,

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<v Speaker 2>it's like under three hundred yards and it's it's not

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<v Speaker 2>like a volcano hole where they took a bunch of

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<v Speaker 2>fill and put a green. It's like it plays up

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<v Speaker 2>a hill, you know, so you're you're going uphill fairway

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<v Speaker 2>and then a little even more abruptly uphill to the green.

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<v Speaker 2>But it's it's a natural peak on the on the land,

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<v Speaker 2>so it's you know, maybe twenty five feet uphill, but

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<v Speaker 2>it just feels like you're playing up to the sky.

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<v Speaker 2>And because it's such a short part, for it's a

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<v Speaker 2>tiny green surrounded by trouble, and it's you know, you

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<v Speaker 2>could take driver and try to smash it into the

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<v Speaker 2>bunkers or something, get up and down that way. You

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<v Speaker 2>got to hit a good second shot to stay on

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<v Speaker 2>it no matter what you do. And then for the

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<v Speaker 2>tenth I'd probably go with something that I haven't played yet,

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<v Speaker 2>whether it's meadow Brook, the restoration a meadow or I

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<v Speaker 2>don't know, it's not a restoration the redesign of Meadowbrook

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<v Speaker 2>in Detroit, which I haven't but i've heard great things about,

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<v Speaker 2>or the one that I always wanted to play in

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<v Speaker 2>is just too far away from here. There's there's there's

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<v Speaker 2>a course called the Gales right straight across the state

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<v Speaker 2>from here, in like Oscota and Alpina, that area, like

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<v Speaker 2>on Lake Huron. It's a it's a resort. They've actually

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<v Speaker 2>got they've got two courses. They got one that they

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<v Speaker 2>tried to make pine valley style. I can't remember what

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<v Speaker 2>that one's called even, And then they've got this open

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<v Speaker 2>thing that they tried to shape up like a Lynks

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<v Speaker 2>course that they call the Gals after Western Gales, and

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<v Speaker 2>some of the golf pros around here that I know

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<v Speaker 2>really liked it when it when it opened, they were like,

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<v Speaker 2>that's really cool. They said, it's not. It doesn't really

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<v Speaker 2>play like a Lynx as much as you wanted to,

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<v Speaker 2>but it was really cool that they just did something

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<v Speaker 2>out of nothing. So I've always been to get over

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<v Speaker 2>and see that, but it's three hours away on a

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<v Speaker 2>bad road. You know. Forest Dunes is like less than

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<v Speaker 2>half the distance and it's right all the way, So

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<v Speaker 2>I never get passed there to go see it. But

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<v Speaker 2>if you could get if you could arrange for a

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<v Speaker 2>helicopter or a private plane, we go over and check

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<v Speaker 2>it out.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm working on the plane. I think I'm further away

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<v Speaker 1>than I've ever been.

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<v Speaker 2>Me too.

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<v Speaker 3>Well, listening to Tom's roster, you know, i'd be to

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<v Speaker 3>be honest, I'd be hard pressed to really come up

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<v Speaker 3>with anything much different. And part of it is because,

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<v Speaker 3>you know, in the time I've worked for Tom in

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<v Speaker 3>the last twenty or twenty plus years, you know, anytime

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<v Speaker 3>we're in Michigan and get to Plague golf. We you know,

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<v Speaker 3>we gravitate to try and get to the downs for

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<v Speaker 3>the same reason that reasons that Tom does, so don't

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<v Speaker 3>I don't know that I that my list would would

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<v Speaker 3>be much different, But I would say, in listening to

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<v Speaker 3>Tom's answers, I think I wish there was more. You know,

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<v Speaker 3>the places Tom described are special and cool, and you know,

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<v Speaker 3>spots you want to get to if you have the opportunity,

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<v Speaker 3>no question about it. But I also think in the

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<v Speaker 3>time that I've lived in Michigan, I've watched, especially up

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<v Speaker 3>north up here where there used to be just a

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<v Speaker 3>whole slew of man Pa nine and even some eighteen

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<v Speaker 3>hole golf courses that were able to sustain themselves. You know,

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<v Speaker 3>there was the golf season short, but there was enough

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<v Speaker 3>of an interest that you could go to these places,

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<v Speaker 3>and there were lots of them. And then, of course,

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<v Speaker 3>you know, with what the economy has experienced in the

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<v Speaker 3>last decade or so, a lot of those are gone now.

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<v Speaker 3>And it's it's unfortunate because I think, you know, some

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<v Speaker 3>of the most fun I've ever had playing golf isn't

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<v Speaker 3>on a great golf course. It's just playing golf with

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<v Speaker 3>people whose company you really enjoy and laughing and hitting

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<v Speaker 3>shots and and just having that experience. I'm I'm really

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<v Speaker 3>lucky because a lot of the fun golf that I

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<v Speaker 3>have played has been in a lot of the places,

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<v Speaker 3>not just some of the best stuff in Michigan, but

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<v Speaker 3>all over the world. And but it's, uh, you know,

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<v Speaker 3>the thing that the thing that makes that really special

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<v Speaker 3>isn't just the architecture, it's the people you're playing golf with.

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<v Speaker 3>And it you know that we talk a lot about, gosh,

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<v Speaker 3>what can we do to make golf more affordable and

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<v Speaker 3>accessible and sustainable, And that's a that's a popular topic,

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<v Speaker 3>but it's it's not easy to figure out. It's a

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<v Speaker 3>it's a it's a hard question to try and solve.

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<v Speaker 3>So you know, the I would like to play more

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<v Speaker 3>golf on the really cheap, accessible golf courses, not just

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<v Speaker 3>in Michigan but everywhere. And and you know, it's a

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<v Speaker 3>good reminder that golf can be really fun if if

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<v Speaker 3>the company is is fun too, and you know, there's

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<v Speaker 3>a place in golf for that. And it's a it's

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<v Speaker 3>a good compliment to all the great places that Tom

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<v Speaker 3>described that you should play in Michigan as well. And

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<v Speaker 3>if you you know, anyone's listening and gets to play

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<v Speaker 3>some of these places, keep your eyes peeled for those

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<v Speaker 3>one offs that are three miles down the road that

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<v Speaker 3>is not on any map, and maybe give those a

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<v Speaker 3>whirl too, And they're a nice compliment to all the

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<v Speaker 3>stuff that Tom listed for sure.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I mean I think you know, I've never been

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<v Speaker 2>to Muskegon Country Club, which is supposedly a really good

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<v Speaker 2>Donald Ross course. It's about an hour further from here

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<v Speaker 2>than Crystal Downs. Is you know, it's a frog question

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<v Speaker 2>for me. I mean, I pay four thousand dollars a

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<v Speaker 2>year to belong to Crystal Downs, and I play out

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<v Speaker 2>like six times, So it's really hard to justify skipping

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<v Speaker 2>one of those six times to go an hour further

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<v Speaker 2>to play something else. But there's a lot of good

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<v Speaker 2>golf here, and it's not necessarily all the places that

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<v Speaker 2>they promote as the golf Mecca or whatever. You know,

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<v Speaker 2>There's just there's a lot of interesting land up here.

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<v Speaker 2>It's a beautiful place to build a golf course. That's

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<v Speaker 2>one of the reasons I got here.

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<v Speaker 1>Dustin McCann has a question that's based off of Crystal

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<v Speaker 1>Downs and most people listening probably haven't played Crystal Downs,

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<v Speaker 1>but it's a gorgeous site. Is there anything that can

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<v Speaker 1>be done in the game to bring back the concept

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<v Speaker 1>of building artistically strategic public golf courses for a modest

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<v Speaker 1>amount of money that would be similar to Crystal Downs?

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<v Speaker 1>And he's assuming that it didn't take a big cost

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<v Speaker 1>to build Crystal Downs.

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<v Speaker 2>No, it wouldn't have taken a big cost to build

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<v Speaker 2>Crystal Downs because it's on a really interesting, undulating piece

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<v Speaker 2>of ground. Funny enough, it's you know, like all the

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<v Speaker 2>houses of Crystal Downs overlook like Michigan, they're on a

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<v Speaker 2>bluff overlooking Lake Michigan. The golf course never actually touches

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<v Speaker 2>the bluff. They wouldn't they wouldn't let him go there.

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<v Speaker 2>They had already, you know, they had already sold most

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<v Speaker 2>of that land. When Mackenzie showed up, they had a

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<v Speaker 2>little nine hole course and they laid out the lots

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<v Speaker 2>and then they said, oh, well, let's get bringing him

0:13:12.520 --> 0:13:15.600
<v Speaker 2>into like make the golf course better. But it's like, no,

0:13:16.120 --> 0:13:19.280
<v Speaker 2>you can't go there. We've already you know, that's where

0:13:19.280 --> 0:13:24.400
<v Speaker 2>we're making our money. We've already done that, So yes,

0:13:24.679 --> 0:13:27.000
<v Speaker 2>you can't. You know, That's what high point was supposed

0:13:27.040 --> 0:13:29.679
<v Speaker 2>to be. Take a good piece of land, build a

0:13:29.720 --> 0:13:33.400
<v Speaker 2>golf course for a modest budget, open it for forty

0:13:33.400 --> 0:13:35.920
<v Speaker 2>five dollars green fees. That's what we talked about when

0:13:35.960 --> 0:13:38.719
<v Speaker 2>we started building it. You Know, the one thing I

0:13:38.800 --> 0:13:43.960
<v Speaker 2>didn't understand about the golf business was, you know, obviously

0:13:44.000 --> 0:13:45.880
<v Speaker 2>I was trying to make the golf course as good

0:13:45.880 --> 0:13:47.920
<v Speaker 2>as I could make it. I didn't want it to

0:13:48.080 --> 0:13:50.040
<v Speaker 2>just be thought of as, oh, it's a good forty

0:13:50.080 --> 0:13:53.680
<v Speaker 2>five dollars golf course. So I'm you know, I thought

0:13:53.679 --> 0:13:55.440
<v Speaker 2>it was a really good piece of land, and I'm

0:13:55.559 --> 0:13:59.640
<v Speaker 2>talking to the client like, you know, this is going

0:13:59.720 --> 0:14:01.480
<v Speaker 2>to be very good. I think it's going to be

0:14:01.600 --> 0:14:05.480
<v Speaker 2>very good. And other people around the project were like,

0:14:05.480 --> 0:14:07.880
<v Speaker 2>oh yeah, this is good. Oh yeah, you could charge

0:14:07.920 --> 0:14:09.800
<v Speaker 2>more than forty five dollars for this. You could charge

0:14:09.800 --> 0:14:13.640
<v Speaker 2>seventy or eighty four. So by the time we got

0:14:13.679 --> 0:14:15.840
<v Speaker 2>the golf course done and they were ready to open,

0:14:15.920 --> 0:14:18.520
<v Speaker 2>it had morphed away from being affordable and it was

0:14:18.559 --> 0:14:23.000
<v Speaker 2>an eighty dollars golf course, you know, while still being

0:14:23.520 --> 0:14:27.120
<v Speaker 2>you know, being predicated on the idea that they could

0:14:27.200 --> 0:14:29.720
<v Speaker 2>maintain it for a forty five or fifty dollars kind

0:14:29.720 --> 0:14:33.720
<v Speaker 2>of green fee, but they weren't really you know, we

0:14:33.840 --> 0:14:35.840
<v Speaker 2>talked about what the maintenance budget would be, and just

0:14:35.880 --> 0:14:37.640
<v Speaker 2>because they went to eighty didn't mean they were going

0:14:37.680 --> 0:14:39.320
<v Speaker 2>to jack up the maint and it's budget a lot

0:14:39.360 --> 0:14:42.560
<v Speaker 2>more to keep up with it. So they, you know,

0:14:42.600 --> 0:14:45.520
<v Speaker 2>they instantly got off track of what they'd been talking

0:14:45.520 --> 0:14:48.160
<v Speaker 2>about at the beginning. And that's that's what happens. When

0:14:48.160 --> 0:14:51.480
<v Speaker 2>people say, why don't you build more affordable golf courses?

0:14:51.520 --> 0:14:55.240
<v Speaker 2>I'm like, well, there's this, there's this, there's this middle

0:14:55.320 --> 0:15:01.960
<v Speaker 2>man the owner, and the owners incentive really isn't to

0:15:02.200 --> 0:15:06.200
<v Speaker 2>keep the thing as cheap as you positively can. It's like,

0:15:06.480 --> 0:15:08.560
<v Speaker 2>how can I make more money off this? You know,

0:15:08.680 --> 0:15:12.640
<v Speaker 2>and and it's easy for them to just I even

0:15:12.680 --> 0:15:15.680
<v Speaker 2>the simplest thing is, well, if we could make the

0:15:15.720 --> 0:15:19.280
<v Speaker 2>same amount of money by charging more and having less

0:15:19.280 --> 0:15:22.400
<v Speaker 2>people on it, that would be more attractive to me

0:15:22.440 --> 0:15:24.240
<v Speaker 2>because then I could go out and play golf whenever

0:15:24.280 --> 0:15:28.720
<v Speaker 2>I wanted to. So, you know, unfortunately, you know, the

0:15:28.840 --> 0:15:31.840
<v Speaker 2>idea of building a new course and making it an

0:15:31.880 --> 0:15:37.000
<v Speaker 2>affordable golf course, if it works, that's you know, if

0:15:37.040 --> 0:15:40.680
<v Speaker 2>it's successful, it's not going to stay affordable. The affordable

0:15:40.720 --> 0:15:43.600
<v Speaker 2>golf courses are the mom and pop places like Don's

0:15:43.640 --> 0:15:47.280
<v Speaker 2>talking about that. They because they have no capital in it.

0:15:47.360 --> 0:15:49.520
<v Speaker 2>You know, the capital costs were thirty years ago and

0:15:49.560 --> 0:15:53.120
<v Speaker 2>they've forgotten about that by now. They can just afford

0:15:53.240 --> 0:15:56.560
<v Speaker 2>to operate on whatever cost to maintain the golf course,

0:15:57.000 --> 0:16:00.120
<v Speaker 2>plus a little bit for themselves. That's a completely for

0:16:00.160 --> 0:16:02.240
<v Speaker 2>an equation than trying to pay off how much you

0:16:02.400 --> 0:16:06.160
<v Speaker 2>just spent building the golf course. Plus you're you know,

0:16:06.200 --> 0:16:08.760
<v Speaker 2>you're just you know, any new course, you're just hyping

0:16:08.800 --> 0:16:10.800
<v Speaker 2>the crap out of it opening it. You get all

0:16:10.800 --> 0:16:14.280
<v Speaker 2>this publicity trying to make it sound good. You want

0:16:14.280 --> 0:16:17.200
<v Speaker 2>to charge more if you can possibly charge more. And

0:16:17.400 --> 0:16:20.200
<v Speaker 2>only client we've ever had that was different than that

0:16:20.440 --> 0:16:24.280
<v Speaker 2>was common ground for the Colorado Golf Association.

0:16:25.840 --> 0:16:28.920
<v Speaker 1>So they were a nonprofit, the nonprofit, that's what I

0:16:28.920 --> 0:16:30.920
<v Speaker 1>was going to say.

0:16:30.280 --> 0:16:33.960
<v Speaker 2>Ground, Well, even common ground even as a nonprofit because

0:16:34.000 --> 0:16:37.440
<v Speaker 2>they have all the Caddy Foundation things that they've got

0:16:37.480 --> 0:16:40.960
<v Speaker 2>going on, they still would like to make money for

0:16:41.040 --> 0:16:43.520
<v Speaker 2>all their charitable endeavors now, so there is a little

0:16:43.600 --> 0:16:48.640
<v Speaker 2>upward pressure on the green feet. But there their mission

0:16:48.680 --> 0:16:51.200
<v Speaker 2>statement in the beginning. What they told us was, Okay,

0:16:51.240 --> 0:16:55.000
<v Speaker 2>this is a forty five dollars golf course and we've

0:16:55.040 --> 0:16:59.360
<v Speaker 2>saved up four million dollars to redo it, and we

0:16:59.400 --> 0:17:02.360
<v Speaker 2>want to make at the best forty five dollars golf

0:17:02.360 --> 0:17:05.119
<v Speaker 2>course in town. We don't, you know, we're not trying

0:17:05.119 --> 0:17:10.239
<v Speaker 2>to compete with the seventy five dollar courses and you know,

0:17:10.359 --> 0:17:13.400
<v Speaker 2>and take business away from the seventy five dollar courses.

0:17:14.400 --> 0:17:17.520
<v Speaker 2>We want this to be truly affordable for everybody that

0:17:17.600 --> 0:17:22.679
<v Speaker 2>belongs to the Colorado Golf Association. And and we're not

0:17:22.720 --> 0:17:25.920
<v Speaker 2>in it for we have no profit motive here. But

0:17:26.000 --> 0:17:29.159
<v Speaker 2>you know that that's one client in my lifetime that

0:17:29.440 --> 0:17:30.520
<v Speaker 2>that had that attitude.

0:17:31.480 --> 0:17:34.080
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, in my head when you were talking about it,

0:17:34.359 --> 0:17:37.920
<v Speaker 1>I'd never thought about that. It's like, it's impossible for

0:17:38.040 --> 0:17:41.639
<v Speaker 1>a golf course to be affordable and great almost because

0:17:41.720 --> 0:17:45.359
<v Speaker 1>the owner, in almost all cases, unless it's a as soon.

0:17:45.240 --> 0:17:47.199
<v Speaker 2>As you gets the top hundred list, they'll add one

0:17:47.280 --> 0:17:50.280
<v Speaker 2>hundred dollars to the green fee the day after. Yeah,

0:17:50.560 --> 0:17:51.840
<v Speaker 2>So why wouldn't.

0:17:51.440 --> 0:17:53.800
<v Speaker 1>You The only possible way would be if it was

0:17:53.840 --> 0:17:57.040
<v Speaker 1>like somebody that if it was like a nonprofit and

0:17:57.080 --> 0:18:00.720
<v Speaker 1>that was like their whole mission was building a golf

0:18:00.760 --> 0:18:04.240
<v Speaker 1>courses that are you know, have good architecture.

0:18:04.520 --> 0:18:06.600
<v Speaker 3>I think that was one of the most refreshing things

0:18:06.640 --> 0:18:09.760
<v Speaker 3>about that project. You know, those that's a one off

0:18:09.880 --> 0:18:12.439
<v Speaker 3>for sure, that their mandate is that it not just

0:18:12.560 --> 0:18:16.879
<v Speaker 3>be affordable, that it stay affordable, right, But it is

0:18:16.920 --> 0:18:19.320
<v Speaker 3>interesting to see the pressures that are coming now because

0:18:19.320 --> 0:18:23.399
<v Speaker 3>it's been a success. They have many programs, grassroots programs

0:18:23.640 --> 0:18:29.200
<v Speaker 3>that they're trying to really move forward and advance and

0:18:30.320 --> 0:18:33.959
<v Speaker 3>include a lot more people. But those don't operate for nothing,

0:18:34.080 --> 0:18:37.520
<v Speaker 3>and it's hard to keep the governor turned down for them.

0:18:37.560 --> 0:18:40.199
<v Speaker 3>I'm sure when they could turn it up based on

0:18:40.280 --> 0:18:42.399
<v Speaker 3>the demand that they have, but it's it's interesting. I

0:18:42.400 --> 0:18:44.439
<v Speaker 3>think that's something that's been interesting about golf in the

0:18:44.520 --> 0:18:47.840
<v Speaker 3>US for a long time is that it's it's our

0:18:47.960 --> 0:18:51.360
<v Speaker 3>perception that if it's expensive, it's good. Yeah, you know,

0:18:51.440 --> 0:18:53.880
<v Speaker 3>if it's not expensive, if it didn't cost a lot

0:18:53.920 --> 0:18:56.760
<v Speaker 3>to build, they must have cut corners. They probably didn't

0:18:56.800 --> 0:18:59.359
<v Speaker 3>do as many things as they should have in the

0:18:59.440 --> 0:19:02.840
<v Speaker 3>experience is going to be commensurate with the green fee,

0:19:02.920 --> 0:19:05.760
<v Speaker 3>and it's you know, it's a shame that it's like that,

0:19:05.920 --> 0:19:06.840
<v Speaker 3>but it's very real.

0:19:06.960 --> 0:19:09.000
<v Speaker 2>Oh and I you know, I have a great story

0:19:09.000 --> 0:19:11.359
<v Speaker 2>about that, you know, I mean I grew up on

0:19:11.400 --> 0:19:13.920
<v Speaker 2>the East Coast and Myrtle Beach golf back in the day.

0:19:14.680 --> 0:19:17.359
<v Speaker 2>The whole golf holiday thing that they put together was,

0:19:17.880 --> 0:19:19.639
<v Speaker 2>you know, you call up and get a package and

0:19:19.680 --> 0:19:22.120
<v Speaker 2>get a tea time on five different golf courses whatever,

0:19:22.840 --> 0:19:26.960
<v Speaker 2>and stay at ex hotel and the package was the

0:19:27.000 --> 0:19:30.520
<v Speaker 2>same price. All the golf courses were the same price,

0:19:31.359 --> 0:19:35.159
<v Speaker 2>and so you could pick whatever ones you wanted, but

0:19:35.200 --> 0:19:38.240
<v Speaker 2>they were they cost the same and so the package

0:19:38.240 --> 0:19:41.399
<v Speaker 2>price was the cost of the package depended entirely on

0:19:41.400 --> 0:19:44.040
<v Speaker 2>what hotel you wanted to stay at, you know, somewhere

0:19:44.040 --> 0:19:47.760
<v Speaker 2>a little more and somewhere a little less. My client

0:19:47.880 --> 0:19:50.639
<v Speaker 2>down there for the legends, Larry Young when he built

0:19:50.640 --> 0:19:53.120
<v Speaker 2>Oyster Bay and marsh Harbor, those were the first two

0:19:53.160 --> 0:19:57.400
<v Speaker 2>golf courses that charged a premium. You know, the golf courses.

0:19:57.840 --> 0:19:59.399
<v Speaker 2>All they got out of the package was you had

0:19:59.400 --> 0:20:02.240
<v Speaker 2>to pick cart feet of them directly. They were basically

0:20:02.280 --> 0:20:06.160
<v Speaker 2>almost given the golf away, where they just got half

0:20:06.200 --> 0:20:10.280
<v Speaker 2>of what they were charging. Larry was like, I'm trying

0:20:10.280 --> 0:20:12.399
<v Speaker 2>to build something better, so I'm not gonna go for that.

0:20:12.480 --> 0:20:15.280
<v Speaker 2>I'm gonna you know, you have to pay an extra

0:20:15.400 --> 0:20:19.320
<v Speaker 2>ten or twenty dollars to play my courses, which you know,

0:20:19.760 --> 0:20:23.359
<v Speaker 2>was throwing a monkey engine into the whole system that

0:20:23.480 --> 0:20:25.000
<v Speaker 2>wasn't really popular down there.

0:20:25.160 --> 0:20:27.800
<v Speaker 1>Probably had a lot of enemies in the Myrtle Beach air.

0:20:27.840 --> 0:20:30.520
<v Speaker 2>Yah, and especially when he was like, you know, they

0:20:30.520 --> 0:20:33.000
<v Speaker 2>would try to charge They tried to charge all the

0:20:35.800 --> 0:20:38.760
<v Speaker 2>all the all the participants in that thing based on

0:20:38.800 --> 0:20:41.840
<v Speaker 2>how much revenue they did. And he's like, well, my

0:20:41.960 --> 0:20:44.719
<v Speaker 2>courses successful, so that means I got to pay more

0:20:45.240 --> 0:20:47.199
<v Speaker 2>to be in the same ad with the guy across

0:20:47.240 --> 0:20:49.399
<v Speaker 2>the street who gets to pay less to be in

0:20:49.440 --> 0:20:52.240
<v Speaker 2>the same ad. That doesn't work. So he pulled out

0:20:52.240 --> 0:20:54.959
<v Speaker 2>of the thing entirely for a while, and you know,

0:20:55.000 --> 0:20:57.160
<v Speaker 2>he he had kind of an off on again, off

0:20:57.200 --> 0:21:00.760
<v Speaker 2>again relationship. But anyway, it got to the point that

0:21:01.960 --> 0:21:04.320
<v Speaker 2>nobody knew what course to play in Myrtle Beach. And

0:21:04.359 --> 0:21:07.080
<v Speaker 2>once he broke the barrier of like, oh, I'll charge more,

0:21:07.920 --> 0:21:10.240
<v Speaker 2>some of the other courses said, well, you know, I

0:21:10.280 --> 0:21:13.000
<v Speaker 2>mean those COFs courses were so busy that they were

0:21:13.000 --> 0:21:16.240
<v Speaker 2>in bad shape because they were so busy. Fifty sixty

0:21:16.240 --> 0:21:20.800
<v Speaker 2>thousand rounds a year, and some of them said, well,

0:21:20.800 --> 0:21:23.920
<v Speaker 2>why don't we raise the price and do less rounds?

0:21:24.880 --> 0:21:27.600
<v Speaker 2>And they raised the price and they got more rounds

0:21:28.119 --> 0:21:30.760
<v Speaker 2>because once they put their green fee up higher, everybody thought, well,

0:21:30.800 --> 0:21:32.240
<v Speaker 2>that must be the best one I want to play that.

0:21:33.280 --> 0:21:37.000
<v Speaker 2>There's there's some economic term for that. There's there's some

0:21:37.119 --> 0:21:41.239
<v Speaker 2>like economic perceive value. Now it's named after somebody. I

0:21:41.280 --> 0:21:43.160
<v Speaker 2>just don't remember what the name of it is right now,

0:21:43.320 --> 0:21:45.600
<v Speaker 2>but it's absolutely true. You know, if you don't know,

0:21:45.640 --> 0:21:48.000
<v Speaker 2>if there's thirty golf courses and you don't know the

0:21:48.040 --> 0:21:51.600
<v Speaker 2>difference between any of them, you will automatically assume that

0:21:51.640 --> 0:21:54.439
<v Speaker 2>the highest priced one is the best one. So people

0:21:55.440 --> 0:21:58.600
<v Speaker 2>jack their prices way up to be the highest priced one,

0:21:59.680 --> 0:22:03.160
<v Speaker 2>because that's how you you know, if you especially most

0:22:03.160 --> 0:22:05.600
<v Speaker 2>of those courses back then, they didn't really have they

0:22:05.600 --> 0:22:08.919
<v Speaker 2>had no signature architect's name. You think about it, Hiring

0:22:08.920 --> 0:22:12.800
<v Speaker 2>a signature architect is doing the exact same thing, Jack Nicholas, Oh,

0:22:13.000 --> 0:22:16.119
<v Speaker 2>Jack Nicholas, that must be the best one, you know,

0:22:16.240 --> 0:22:18.359
<v Speaker 2>regardless of what you know, if you've never seen what

0:22:18.440 --> 0:22:21.840
<v Speaker 2>he designed, or if you have, Oh Jack Nicholas, So

0:22:23.880 --> 0:22:26.560
<v Speaker 2>you know it is crazy, but that's yet another reason

0:22:26.680 --> 0:22:32.320
<v Speaker 2>why keeping a golf course affordable is not what business

0:22:32.320 --> 0:22:35.119
<v Speaker 2>people will do. It's it's against their interest to do

0:22:35.200 --> 0:22:36.959
<v Speaker 2>it that way. It's funny.

0:22:36.960 --> 0:22:41.280
<v Speaker 1>I always recommend people to go play Ravslow in Chicago

0:22:41.359 --> 0:22:45.440
<v Speaker 1>because everybody, I mean they probably get ten to fifteen

0:22:45.480 --> 0:22:48.360
<v Speaker 1>emails a week from people saying where should I play

0:22:48.400 --> 0:22:50.840
<v Speaker 1>in Chicago? Because I'm from there, and I'm always like,

0:22:50.960 --> 0:22:55.359
<v Speaker 1>you should play Ravislow. It's like and they're like, they're like, oh, thanks,

0:22:55.840 --> 0:22:58.200
<v Speaker 1>and then they email me after they're like, I can't

0:22:58.200 --> 0:23:01.639
<v Speaker 1>believe that place is forty bucks, you know, like it's unbelieved.

0:23:01.640 --> 0:23:04.960
<v Speaker 1>I'm like, yeah, it's but instead of going and playing

0:23:05.080 --> 0:23:07.879
<v Speaker 1>like the two hundred dollars or one hundred and fifty

0:23:07.960 --> 0:23:12.199
<v Speaker 1>dollars around place, It's like it it's odd to me

0:23:12.359 --> 0:23:20.120
<v Speaker 1>because in actuality, the high cost is probably they spent

0:23:20.240 --> 0:23:22.919
<v Speaker 1>a lot of money to build it, and they spend

0:23:22.920 --> 0:23:24.720
<v Speaker 1>a ton of money to maintain.

0:23:24.320 --> 0:23:26.119
<v Speaker 2>It and to promote it.

0:23:26.200 --> 0:23:27.359
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, and to promote it.

0:23:27.440 --> 0:23:29.560
<v Speaker 2>There's some of them are spending a lot on that too.

0:23:29.760 --> 0:23:34.720
<v Speaker 1>Rather than the actual like value of like how is

0:23:34.760 --> 0:23:36.800
<v Speaker 1>this golf? Like a lot of times, but I find

0:23:36.840 --> 0:23:40.760
<v Speaker 1>the best architecture in the thirty twenty dollars golf courses

0:23:40.800 --> 0:23:42.040
<v Speaker 1>in the city.

0:23:42.200 --> 0:23:45.320
<v Speaker 2>Sometimes yes, And but the flip side of what you're

0:23:45.359 --> 0:23:51.520
<v Speaker 2>saying is once the golf course opens, it now no matter,

0:23:52.280 --> 0:23:57.000
<v Speaker 2>no longer matters what you spent building, because the only

0:23:57.040 --> 0:23:59.320
<v Speaker 2>thing is it's like how many people are willing to

0:23:59.359 --> 0:24:02.480
<v Speaker 2>pay X for green fee. They don't care. They don't

0:24:02.480 --> 0:24:04.720
<v Speaker 2>care how much it costs to build. You know. That's

0:24:04.760 --> 0:24:10.560
<v Speaker 2>the part where the owner is either like doing great.

0:24:10.880 --> 0:24:13.719
<v Speaker 2>You know, if it didn't cost that much to build

0:24:13.960 --> 0:24:16.680
<v Speaker 2>and everybody loves it and you can charge two hundred dollars,

0:24:17.119 --> 0:24:20.159
<v Speaker 2>you make a lot of money. The flip side is

0:24:20.600 --> 0:24:24.640
<v Speaker 2>if you didn't. You know, if you spend a lot

0:24:24.680 --> 0:24:26.840
<v Speaker 2>to build it and you need to charge one hundred

0:24:26.840 --> 0:24:29.840
<v Speaker 2>and fifty dollars to break even or pay that off,

0:24:30.520 --> 0:24:33.800
<v Speaker 2>and people are only willing to pay sixty or eighty,

0:24:34.440 --> 0:24:38.080
<v Speaker 2>you are doomed. And they have no sympathy for what

0:24:38.119 --> 0:24:40.879
<v Speaker 2>it costs to build it. They are only comparing it

0:24:40.920 --> 0:24:44.880
<v Speaker 2>to well, this course costs seventy so and I don't

0:24:44.920 --> 0:24:47.399
<v Speaker 2>think you're any better, So I don't care what you

0:24:47.600 --> 0:24:51.240
<v Speaker 2>spend building. But then the really really odd part of

0:24:51.280 --> 0:24:53.800
<v Speaker 2>the golf businesses. So that guy who spent way too

0:24:53.880 --> 0:24:55.640
<v Speaker 2>much to build a golf course and then it fails,

0:24:56.600 --> 0:25:00.959
<v Speaker 2>he goes. He doesn't necessarily go bankrupt, but he winds

0:25:01.040 --> 0:25:04.200
<v Speaker 2>up selling for pennies on the dollar to somebody else.

0:25:04.920 --> 0:25:07.640
<v Speaker 2>And now that guy is in a good position. That

0:25:07.680 --> 0:25:10.600
<v Speaker 2>guy has something that they spent ten million dollars to build,

0:25:10.960 --> 0:25:14.960
<v Speaker 2>but he only bought it for one So now he's

0:25:15.000 --> 0:25:16.840
<v Speaker 2>in a position to make a lot of money and

0:25:16.920 --> 0:25:20.760
<v Speaker 2>drive the good, modest one out of business because he's

0:25:20.760 --> 0:25:23.760
<v Speaker 2>got a lower cost pieces. That's the perverse part of

0:25:23.760 --> 0:25:27.080
<v Speaker 2>the golf business. Some of the some of the biggest

0:25:27.119 --> 0:25:31.280
<v Speaker 2>white elephants that have ever been built, wind up still

0:25:31.840 --> 0:25:35.520
<v Speaker 2>creaming the competition when the second or third owner gets

0:25:35.520 --> 0:25:36.679
<v Speaker 2>a hold of him for nothing.

0:25:38.160 --> 0:25:42.640
<v Speaker 1>I've never thought about that makes total sense, and.

0:25:42.600 --> 0:25:44.680
<v Speaker 2>They don't go away. Those are the ones that don't

0:25:44.680 --> 0:25:48.639
<v Speaker 2>go away because the price, the resale price, just keeps

0:25:48.680 --> 0:25:52.399
<v Speaker 2>going down until you get to the point where it works.

0:25:54.040 --> 0:25:57.840
<v Speaker 3>It's interesting that the economy of golf, you know, from

0:25:57.920 --> 0:26:01.160
<v Speaker 3>what it the price of eggs to build a golf course,

0:26:01.240 --> 0:26:04.240
<v Speaker 3>whatever that is, and if you can build it well

0:26:05.080 --> 0:26:09.679
<v Speaker 3>and cheaply, you're light years ahead of anyone that didn't

0:26:09.680 --> 0:26:11.800
<v Speaker 3>do it that way. And it's it's interesting. I mean,

0:26:11.920 --> 0:26:15.399
<v Speaker 3>you you, we all are enamored with the idea of

0:26:15.440 --> 0:26:19.639
<v Speaker 3>golf being accessible and affordable, but you know, whoever is

0:26:19.680 --> 0:26:23.600
<v Speaker 3>writing the checks to get our playing fields built and

0:26:23.720 --> 0:26:28.359
<v Speaker 3>open for us are not gonna disregard what the market

0:26:28.400 --> 0:26:32.200
<v Speaker 3>will bear. And if the market bears a high green fee,

0:26:33.680 --> 0:26:36.119
<v Speaker 3>you can ask them to be do us all a

0:26:36.200 --> 0:26:38.800
<v Speaker 3>favor and don't charge us so much, but you know,

0:26:38.880 --> 0:26:41.560
<v Speaker 3>the likelihood of that happening isn't very good. It's like

0:26:42.160 --> 0:26:45.440
<v Speaker 3>a lot of places that you see in areas where

0:26:45.440 --> 0:26:49.040
<v Speaker 3>the economy is starting to emerge and you need you

0:26:49.119 --> 0:26:53.720
<v Speaker 3>need labor and there's no affordable housing for people, but

0:26:53.800 --> 0:26:57.200
<v Speaker 3>there's a lot of development going on, and you're you,

0:26:57.200 --> 0:27:01.879
<v Speaker 3>you can't require developers to please build affordable housing for

0:27:02.000 --> 0:27:05.359
<v Speaker 3>the labor force. They're going to build and get what

0:27:05.480 --> 0:27:09.359
<v Speaker 3>they can out of their investment. So it's it's a

0:27:09.480 --> 0:27:13.200
<v Speaker 3>very difficult pendulum to swing back the other way.

0:27:15.000 --> 0:27:19.919
<v Speaker 1>So we touched on high point and we got a

0:27:20.000 --> 0:27:23.520
<v Speaker 1>question about high point from Brian Hilco. He wants to

0:27:23.560 --> 0:27:28.560
<v Speaker 1>know what is high point on the Doke scale. If

0:27:28.600 --> 0:27:29.840
<v Speaker 1>it existed today.

0:27:32.200 --> 0:27:34.679
<v Speaker 2>I think I rateed it a seven or eight in

0:27:34.800 --> 0:27:40.560
<v Speaker 2>my book way back, and that was probably a point

0:27:40.600 --> 0:27:44.080
<v Speaker 2>above where it should have been. But I really miss it.

0:27:44.200 --> 0:27:46.800
<v Speaker 2>You know, I've had three or four of my courses close.

0:27:48.080 --> 0:27:50.600
<v Speaker 2>That's the only one that I really truly missed, partly

0:27:50.600 --> 0:27:53.800
<v Speaker 2>because it's the only golf course I did where I

0:27:54.000 --> 0:27:59.040
<v Speaker 2>shaped all eighteen greens by myself. You know, others of

0:27:59.080 --> 0:28:02.280
<v Speaker 2>my projects, I've done some of them, but that's the

0:28:02.280 --> 0:28:03.240
<v Speaker 2>only one that I did.

0:28:03.119 --> 0:28:03.560
<v Speaker 3>All of them.

0:28:04.040 --> 0:28:07.720
<v Speaker 2>And it was a really nice piece of land for golf.

0:28:07.920 --> 0:28:10.159
<v Speaker 2>I mean, I just really liked how to fit together.

0:28:10.280 --> 0:28:12.359
<v Speaker 2>It was kind of hard to walk, you know. I

0:28:12.400 --> 0:28:16.080
<v Speaker 2>went out they still hadn't torn up the land for

0:28:16.119 --> 0:28:19.119
<v Speaker 2>the back nine as of a year ago. So I

0:28:19.160 --> 0:28:21.520
<v Speaker 2>took a writer out there a year ago and just

0:28:21.640 --> 0:28:25.119
<v Speaker 2>walked some of the back nine with him, Like, you know,

0:28:25.160 --> 0:28:27.320
<v Speaker 2>there's no grass left. It kind of looks like the

0:28:27.320 --> 0:28:29.600
<v Speaker 2>piece of land that I started with. It's really weird,

0:28:29.960 --> 0:28:31.520
<v Speaker 2>but it kind of looks like the piece of land

0:28:31.560 --> 0:28:36.199
<v Speaker 2>that I started with again. And when we walked it,

0:28:36.280 --> 0:28:38.960
<v Speaker 2>I was like, shit, this is a lot harder to

0:28:38.960 --> 0:28:40.959
<v Speaker 2>walk than I remember. And I was like, duh, I

0:28:41.040 --> 0:28:42.640
<v Speaker 2>was like twenty eight when I built this. You know,

0:28:42.680 --> 0:28:48.080
<v Speaker 2>I'm fifty six, so my perception has changed a little bit.

0:28:49.040 --> 0:28:51.400
<v Speaker 2>I can relate to what other people thought of how

0:28:51.400 --> 0:28:56.960
<v Speaker 2>hard it was to walk, but you know, it was

0:28:57.040 --> 0:29:00.800
<v Speaker 2>different and that was worth a lot. You know, it

0:29:00.920 --> 0:29:05.760
<v Speaker 2>got ranked in some of the early rankings. You know,

0:29:06.000 --> 0:29:08.520
<v Speaker 2>just barely made a list of this or that back

0:29:08.560 --> 0:29:11.640
<v Speaker 2>in the day, and it wouldn't now because I've done

0:29:11.680 --> 0:29:14.120
<v Speaker 2>so many other good courses and it's clearly not as

0:29:14.120 --> 0:29:17.239
<v Speaker 2>good as Pacific Dunes or Cape Kidnappers. You know, it

0:29:17.280 --> 0:29:21.320
<v Speaker 2>wasn't that spectacular piece of land. So you know, the

0:29:21.400 --> 0:29:23.720
<v Speaker 2>reason it made those lists at all was because my

0:29:23.840 --> 0:29:26.360
<v Speaker 2>style was really different and there was nothing else quite

0:29:26.480 --> 0:29:29.560
<v Speaker 2>like it. And now my style is a little better,

0:29:30.040 --> 0:29:33.760
<v Speaker 2>a lot better known, and so it's not as unique anymore.

0:29:33.960 --> 0:29:36.160
<v Speaker 2>And it's not the best piece of ground I worked on,

0:29:36.240 --> 0:29:38.280
<v Speaker 2>so it wouldn't be rated as highly. It wouldn't be

0:29:38.640 --> 0:29:41.760
<v Speaker 2>it wouldn't be in the rankings, but it was a

0:29:41.800 --> 0:29:44.800
<v Speaker 2>neat place to go play golf, and at some level,

0:29:46.360 --> 0:29:50.960
<v Speaker 2>you know, it was a more pure vision of my

0:29:51.600 --> 0:29:54.880
<v Speaker 2>minimalist you know, my style kind of evolved from that

0:29:54.960 --> 0:30:00.479
<v Speaker 2>piece of land. You know, I shaped everything. Everything we

0:30:00.520 --> 0:30:04.080
<v Speaker 2>did I shaped with a very small bulldozer, a D

0:30:04.280 --> 0:30:07.160
<v Speaker 2>four that couldn't push much dirt around if you tried,

0:30:07.760 --> 0:30:09.880
<v Speaker 2>so it had to be something that was, you know,

0:30:10.600 --> 0:30:13.080
<v Speaker 2>and I built it in a in six months, so

0:30:13.080 --> 0:30:16.480
<v Speaker 2>it's like it had to fit the land really close

0:30:16.520 --> 0:30:18.640
<v Speaker 2>because I didn't have any more horsepower to do anything

0:30:18.680 --> 0:30:21.640
<v Speaker 2>different than that. And that was what was cool about it.

0:30:21.800 --> 0:30:25.320
<v Speaker 2>And you know, if if you know, if my kaiser

0:30:25.360 --> 0:30:28.160
<v Speaker 2>wanted to build the same golf course on that land

0:30:28.960 --> 0:30:32.960
<v Speaker 2>with unlimited money, the routing probably would have been the same,

0:30:33.080 --> 0:30:36.360
<v Speaker 2>but the way we shaped it and everything would I'm

0:30:36.360 --> 0:30:40.000
<v Speaker 2>sure it would have turned out different. But I liked

0:30:40.000 --> 0:30:41.920
<v Speaker 2>the way it was. I mean it was it was

0:30:42.000 --> 0:30:44.440
<v Speaker 2>really neat. And you know, there's a couple of things,

0:30:44.480 --> 0:30:46.719
<v Speaker 2>like there were a couple of greens there the third

0:30:46.800 --> 0:30:50.840
<v Speaker 2>along part four fourteenth, a little short part four greens

0:30:50.880 --> 0:30:53.479
<v Speaker 2>were just there was a little knob for a green site,

0:30:54.200 --> 0:30:57.480
<v Speaker 2>and I just built the green on that little knob.

0:30:57.560 --> 0:31:00.000
<v Speaker 2>I just flattened it just barely enough that you could

0:31:00.720 --> 0:31:03.480
<v Speaker 2>have some whole locations and then it was short grass

0:31:03.480 --> 0:31:07.280
<v Speaker 2>peeling off the knob in all different directions. I've really

0:31:07.320 --> 0:31:10.760
<v Speaker 2>never built a Green like that. Since then, you're always

0:31:10.800 --> 0:31:13.080
<v Speaker 2>tempted to do a little more. And and there I

0:31:13.200 --> 0:31:15.400
<v Speaker 2>was like, No, that's good, that's gonna be plenty hard.

0:31:15.840 --> 0:31:17.080
<v Speaker 2>Don't need to do anything else.

0:31:17.680 --> 0:31:21.520
<v Speaker 1>That's uh's gotta suck having the first fun go.

0:31:22.000 --> 0:31:25.239
<v Speaker 2>That's well. You know, I've talked to a lot of

0:31:25.240 --> 0:31:28.800
<v Speaker 2>other architects about that, and and it's it's much more

0:31:28.840 --> 0:31:31.840
<v Speaker 2>common than you think that you're their first golf courses

0:31:31.880 --> 0:31:35.800
<v Speaker 2>are either bastardized or gone, which in hindsight, if you

0:31:35.800 --> 0:31:37.680
<v Speaker 2>think about it, We've talked about a lot. It's like,

0:31:38.640 --> 0:31:41.880
<v Speaker 2>you know, what kind of owner would hire somebody they'd

0:31:41.880 --> 0:31:44.760
<v Speaker 2>never done a golf course before to do something good. Well,

0:31:44.760 --> 0:31:47.320
<v Speaker 2>probably somebody that doesn't really know what they're doing very well,

0:31:48.840 --> 0:31:52.560
<v Speaker 2>So the odds of it feeling are better than really

0:31:52.600 --> 0:31:55.600
<v Speaker 2>smart or someone that's really smart and trying to get

0:31:55.640 --> 0:31:57.840
<v Speaker 2>a good deal built. Even if they're trying to get

0:31:57.880 --> 0:31:59.680
<v Speaker 2>a good deal, you know, they don't know how to

0:31:59.680 --> 0:32:02.800
<v Speaker 2>operate a golf course. Yeah, you know, that's not like

0:32:03.320 --> 0:32:06.280
<v Speaker 2>you know, Mike Kaiser got a lot of credibility at

0:32:06.280 --> 0:32:08.680
<v Speaker 2>the beginning for hiring David Kidd when nobody knew who

0:32:08.680 --> 0:32:11.240
<v Speaker 2>he was, and hiring me even though I'd already done

0:32:11.240 --> 0:32:13.760
<v Speaker 2>twelve courses when people didn't know that much about me.

0:32:14.680 --> 0:32:17.440
<v Speaker 2>But he doesn't do that now. It's like he can't

0:32:17.480 --> 0:32:23.280
<v Speaker 2>take that chance. Now there's too much money at stake

0:32:23.560 --> 0:32:28.560
<v Speaker 2>and too many you know, whoever he hires for the

0:32:28.600 --> 0:32:31.600
<v Speaker 2>next person in Valley, whether it's me or Gil Hants

0:32:31.680 --> 0:32:34.280
<v Speaker 2>or Mike Derez, it's going to be somebody who's already proven.

0:32:34.840 --> 0:32:37.720
<v Speaker 2>He's he's not as willing to take the chance anymore

0:32:37.760 --> 0:32:40.920
<v Speaker 2>because because the profile of that thing is so high

0:32:41.240 --> 0:32:43.800
<v Speaker 2>Whereas when he started banded dudes, nobody knew who the hell,

0:32:43.960 --> 0:32:45.880
<v Speaker 2>what the hell? Even though it was a great sight,

0:32:46.840 --> 0:32:49.640
<v Speaker 2>nobody knew anything about it. So he could he could

0:32:49.680 --> 0:32:52.320
<v Speaker 2>pick whoever he wanted and not worry about what people thought.

0:32:53.200 --> 0:32:56.920
<v Speaker 1>There's uh. In Malcolm Gladwell's book David Versus Goliath, he

0:32:57.040 --> 0:33:01.400
<v Speaker 1>talks about how like David was actually the the favorite

0:33:01.520 --> 0:33:03.880
<v Speaker 1>in the fight against David at Goliath because he was

0:33:03.880 --> 0:33:07.200
<v Speaker 1>this lumbering giant that was blind, and David with a

0:33:07.240 --> 0:33:11.240
<v Speaker 1>slingshot was like a sniper, so like, of course he's

0:33:11.280 --> 0:33:14.720
<v Speaker 1>gonna win. But the same thing goes for like these

0:33:15.480 --> 0:33:20.280
<v Speaker 1>young companies that take on giant mega corporations is they

0:33:20.280 --> 0:33:24.680
<v Speaker 1>can try stuff and if it fails it Do you

0:33:24.680 --> 0:33:27.520
<v Speaker 1>ever feel like that as an architect, like from when

0:33:27.520 --> 0:33:30.920
<v Speaker 1>you were younger to when you're now because you're building,

0:33:30.960 --> 0:33:33.040
<v Speaker 1>When you build a course, it's more high profile that

0:33:33.080 --> 0:33:35.160
<v Speaker 1>there's more scrutiny that comes with it, and it.

0:33:35.440 --> 0:33:40.400
<v Speaker 2>Oh, I look at that as a good thing. No, I.

0:33:40.400 --> 0:33:44.600
<v Speaker 2>I think I've seen a ton of other architects, and

0:33:44.640 --> 0:33:47.240
<v Speaker 2>I don't have to name names. It's most of them.

0:33:47.640 --> 0:33:51.440
<v Speaker 2>After they're successful, they get more and more conservative. It's

0:33:51.480 --> 0:33:54.480
<v Speaker 2>really easy to do because you know, when if somebody

0:33:54.480 --> 0:33:56.200
<v Speaker 2>calls me on the phone right now and wants to

0:33:56.200 --> 0:33:58.520
<v Speaker 2>talk to me about doing a new project, the reason

0:33:58.520 --> 0:34:00.160
<v Speaker 2>they called me is because they've seen something else I've

0:34:00.240 --> 0:34:05.040
<v Speaker 2>done and they liked it. So the Rees Jones approaches, Okay,

0:34:05.640 --> 0:34:08.680
<v Speaker 2>we'll do of course, just like Pacific Dunes for you

0:34:09.360 --> 0:34:12.600
<v Speaker 2>on your inland play site wherever. You know, let's let's

0:34:12.600 --> 0:34:15.160
<v Speaker 2>skip over all the obvious ways where you can't really

0:34:15.200 --> 0:34:18.000
<v Speaker 2>do that. You know, I'm going to tell you just

0:34:18.040 --> 0:34:21.080
<v Speaker 2>what you want to hear. Yes, you like that I

0:34:21.120 --> 0:34:26.480
<v Speaker 2>could do that. I've already done that obviously. It's way, way, way,

0:34:26.520 --> 0:34:31.960
<v Speaker 2>way way harder to say now. I mean, you know,

0:34:32.440 --> 0:34:35.359
<v Speaker 2>when we start keep kidnappers, Julian Robertson is like, I

0:34:35.400 --> 0:34:37.600
<v Speaker 2>love the bunkering of Pacific Dunes. I would like you

0:34:37.640 --> 0:34:40.960
<v Speaker 2>to do the same thing here. And I looked at him.

0:34:40.960 --> 0:34:45.000
<v Speaker 2>I'm like, well, I was in sand dunes. This is

0:34:45.440 --> 0:34:49.200
<v Speaker 2>not sandy at all. And you know here, once you're

0:34:49.239 --> 0:34:52.319
<v Speaker 2>off these little fingers aground, everything's like hanging down out

0:34:52.360 --> 0:34:54.960
<v Speaker 2>of you, off the end of the world. You know,

0:34:55.719 --> 0:34:57.800
<v Speaker 2>those that style of bunkers is just not going to

0:34:57.880 --> 0:35:01.239
<v Speaker 2>work here. You know. I I could try, but it

0:35:01.239 --> 0:35:03.719
<v Speaker 2>would look very out of place. And I'm telling you

0:35:03.760 --> 0:35:08.040
<v Speaker 2>that is not what you ought to do. Really hard

0:35:08.160 --> 0:35:11.160
<v Speaker 2>conversation to have with somebody who you know they want

0:35:11.200 --> 0:35:15.000
<v Speaker 2>you because they love that golf course. But you know

0:35:15.160 --> 0:35:17.440
<v Speaker 2>he listened and said, okay, you know, he still was

0:35:17.480 --> 0:35:19.520
<v Speaker 2>like on me, why aren't there more bunkers on the

0:35:19.520 --> 0:35:22.920
<v Speaker 2>back nine. I'm like, because they'd be eighty feet d

0:35:23.920 --> 0:35:26.839
<v Speaker 2>you know, the next step off this green is off

0:35:26.840 --> 0:35:29.560
<v Speaker 2>the world. So you know, putting a bunker there it's

0:35:29.640 --> 0:35:34.959
<v Speaker 2>not really going to stop anything from happening. But now,

0:35:35.080 --> 0:35:40.480
<v Speaker 2>I mean, I feel like it's just it's just my

0:35:40.600 --> 0:35:43.400
<v Speaker 2>personality in general, I've always been kind of a contrarian.

0:35:44.000 --> 0:35:46.479
<v Speaker 2>I don't want to keep doing the same thing over

0:35:46.520 --> 0:35:50.560
<v Speaker 2>and over again. So I see, so I'm crazy enough

0:35:50.600 --> 0:35:53.360
<v Speaker 2>to ask somebody if I can do a reversible golf course.

0:35:54.680 --> 0:35:56.759
<v Speaker 2>You know, there's all kinds of things that I'd like

0:35:56.880 --> 0:36:00.640
<v Speaker 2>to do that I still haven't find the client that

0:36:00.719 --> 0:36:04.200
<v Speaker 2>will let me do them. And I'm hopeful in the

0:36:04.239 --> 0:36:06.680
<v Speaker 2>next ten or twenty years, or however long I keep

0:36:06.680 --> 0:36:09.400
<v Speaker 2>building golf courses, I will find people to do some

0:36:09.520 --> 0:36:11.799
<v Speaker 2>of those ideas, because I've still got a lot of

0:36:11.840 --> 0:36:15.239
<v Speaker 2>ideas that we just haven't found the right place for yet.

0:36:16.080 --> 0:36:19.120
<v Speaker 2>But you're right, most guys they're not going to be

0:36:19.200 --> 0:36:21.600
<v Speaker 2>that way. You know. It's easier for somebody young to

0:36:21.680 --> 0:36:25.600
<v Speaker 2>take the chance. Well, it's easier in a different environment,

0:36:25.600 --> 0:36:29.000
<v Speaker 2>you know. When you know, when I did High Point,

0:36:29.239 --> 0:36:32.279
<v Speaker 2>there were a lot of golf courses being built, and

0:36:32.320 --> 0:36:35.480
<v Speaker 2>the reason they took a chance on me was that

0:36:36.160 --> 0:36:38.399
<v Speaker 2>a lot of the local guys were busy or they'd

0:36:38.440 --> 0:36:41.680
<v Speaker 2>already done too many other golf courses around there, so

0:36:41.719 --> 0:36:43.520
<v Speaker 2>they didn't want the same guy that built a course

0:36:43.560 --> 0:36:47.239
<v Speaker 2>across the street. So now they're more willing to look

0:36:47.239 --> 0:36:49.279
<v Speaker 2>at somebody who's young and nobody knows who he is.

0:36:50.320 --> 0:36:52.719
<v Speaker 2>You know, in this environment where there's only a few

0:36:52.760 --> 0:36:55.239
<v Speaker 2>courses being built every year and they're you know, it

0:36:55.320 --> 0:36:57.319
<v Speaker 2>doesn't make any sense to build one unless it's going

0:36:57.400 --> 0:37:00.680
<v Speaker 2>to be something really great and you could charge premium for.

0:37:01.360 --> 0:37:03.680
<v Speaker 2>It's really hard for somebody to get the chance that

0:37:03.760 --> 0:37:06.839
<v Speaker 2>I had when I was twenty seven. I mean, I've

0:37:06.880 --> 0:37:09.800
<v Speaker 2>had a ton of guys work at guys and girls

0:37:09.840 --> 0:37:14.400
<v Speaker 2>work for me that are really talented, that are probably

0:37:14.440 --> 0:37:16.640
<v Speaker 2>pretty close to as far along as I was when

0:37:16.640 --> 0:37:21.520
<v Speaker 2>I was twenty seven. You know, two things make it

0:37:21.520 --> 0:37:24.600
<v Speaker 2>harder for them. One there's way more of them all

0:37:24.640 --> 0:37:27.520
<v Speaker 2>want that chance. And two there's not as many chances.

0:37:28.280 --> 0:37:31.600
<v Speaker 2>Oh and three there's me and Gil Hans and Mike

0:37:31.640 --> 0:37:35.160
<v Speaker 2>Derees and all these you know, all these guys that

0:37:35.200 --> 0:37:38.480
<v Speaker 2>have done it a bunch, you know, so it's harder

0:37:38.480 --> 0:37:40.080
<v Speaker 2>for the you know, it's harder for them to get

0:37:40.120 --> 0:37:45.960
<v Speaker 2>a chance. But the art grows when those people get chances,

0:37:46.880 --> 0:37:51.719
<v Speaker 2>and you know, and the art grows when we let

0:37:51.800 --> 0:37:55.280
<v Speaker 2>those kids work on our and they're not kids, they're thirty,

0:37:55.440 --> 0:37:58.880
<v Speaker 2>but when we when we get them onto our projects,

0:37:58.920 --> 0:38:02.920
<v Speaker 2>and let them contribut something. I mean, not as much

0:38:02.960 --> 0:38:04.839
<v Speaker 2>as if we just turn them loose and let them

0:38:04.880 --> 0:38:08.560
<v Speaker 2>do something entirely on their own. But at least they

0:38:08.560 --> 0:38:11.040
<v Speaker 2>get a chance to try out some new things and

0:38:11.280 --> 0:38:12.880
<v Speaker 2>see if they work or not, or see if they

0:38:12.880 --> 0:38:13.520
<v Speaker 2>get past.

0:38:13.360 --> 0:38:14.120
<v Speaker 3>My headit.

0:38:15.560 --> 0:38:20.359
<v Speaker 1>It's I mean, the longer I've gotten into golf is

0:38:20.880 --> 0:38:24.960
<v Speaker 1>the greatest golf courses, Like there's great variety within the

0:38:25.000 --> 0:38:28.920
<v Speaker 1>golf course. You know, the great golf areas have great

0:38:29.000 --> 0:38:35.120
<v Speaker 1>variety among the golf courses. The greatest era of golf

0:38:35.280 --> 0:38:39.520
<v Speaker 1>architecture had great variety amongst all of US architects. You know,

0:38:39.560 --> 0:38:41.480
<v Speaker 1>there were so many of them, different ones so that

0:38:41.560 --> 0:38:44.040
<v Speaker 1>did different things well. And then you look at like

0:38:44.080 --> 0:38:47.160
<v Speaker 1>the PGA Tour, it's like the best golf is when

0:38:47.160 --> 0:38:50.680
<v Speaker 1>there's a variety of different players on. Like golf is

0:38:50.719 --> 0:38:55.680
<v Speaker 1>all about variety, yep. And it should be even within designs,

0:38:55.880 --> 0:38:59.839
<v Speaker 1>like like every design shouldn't be the same. There should

0:38:59.840 --> 0:39:03.239
<v Speaker 1>be a lot of like different styles. And you know,

0:39:03.640 --> 0:39:05.280
<v Speaker 1>I think that's something.

0:39:04.920 --> 0:39:07.920
<v Speaker 2>That no, I mean, I don't you know, people ask

0:39:08.000 --> 0:39:12.120
<v Speaker 2>me about minimalism and I'm like, well, it's kind of

0:39:12.160 --> 0:39:15.640
<v Speaker 2>the thing I do. But you know, I don't. You know,

0:39:15.800 --> 0:39:18.440
<v Speaker 2>I've done some projects that I wouldn't call minimalist, and

0:39:19.480 --> 0:39:22.040
<v Speaker 2>you know that doesn't mean I don't want to do

0:39:22.120 --> 0:39:24.240
<v Speaker 2>it unless you can build a golf course without moving

0:39:24.280 --> 0:39:27.160
<v Speaker 2>any dirt. But do I think all golf courses should

0:39:27.160 --> 0:39:31.200
<v Speaker 2>be that way? Absolutely not? You know, should should every

0:39:31.320 --> 0:39:34.000
<v Speaker 2>young architect want to do the same thing I'm doing.

0:39:34.640 --> 0:39:40.080
<v Speaker 2>I mean, you know you can explain minimalism and make

0:39:40.120 --> 0:39:42.399
<v Speaker 2>it sound really good. I figured that out a long

0:39:42.440 --> 0:39:45.359
<v Speaker 2>time ago, so it's hard to say no, I don't

0:39:45.360 --> 0:39:46.760
<v Speaker 2>want to do that. I want to make a bigger

0:39:46.800 --> 0:39:49.480
<v Speaker 2>splash and move more dirt around and be creative and

0:39:49.520 --> 0:39:52.160
<v Speaker 2>do some things that that those guys don't have the

0:39:52.200 --> 0:39:56.759
<v Speaker 2>guts to do. But you know, if somebody would let

0:39:56.800 --> 0:39:59.200
<v Speaker 2>you do it, go for it. Don't just feel like

0:39:59.239 --> 0:40:02.720
<v Speaker 2>you have to be the next minimalist guy in line,

0:40:03.200 --> 0:40:05.879
<v Speaker 2>because A there's a long line. Now, it's hard, it's

0:40:05.880 --> 0:40:08.000
<v Speaker 2>hard to get to the front of it and be

0:40:09.760 --> 0:40:12.480
<v Speaker 2>Variety is important. As soon as somebody does something that's

0:40:12.640 --> 0:40:17.080
<v Speaker 2>really different, really good, minimalism isn't going to go away,

0:40:17.719 --> 0:40:20.120
<v Speaker 2>but it won't be the hot thing anymore. That's it.

0:40:20.280 --> 0:40:23.200
<v Speaker 1>I always say that the only way you can disrupt

0:40:23.760 --> 0:40:30.240
<v Speaker 1>a industry is if you do something different and continue

0:40:30.239 --> 0:40:32.279
<v Speaker 1>to do something different, right, you know.

0:40:32.400 --> 0:40:36.120
<v Speaker 2>It's and I you know when I when I started,

0:40:37.760 --> 0:40:39.400
<v Speaker 2>I mean, what what I tried to do at the

0:40:39.440 --> 0:40:43.919
<v Speaker 2>Eygepoint was radically different. I mean, you know Tommy who

0:40:43.960 --> 0:40:46.640
<v Speaker 2>built the golf course with me, you know, we talked

0:40:46.640 --> 0:40:48.959
<v Speaker 2>to you know, the closest golf course to high Point

0:40:49.080 --> 0:40:51.600
<v Speaker 2>was the Bear at Grand Travers Resort, the Nicolas course,

0:40:51.600 --> 0:40:53.200
<v Speaker 2>where they had a flat piece of ground and they

0:40:53.440 --> 0:40:56.239
<v Speaker 2>shaped up all kinds of mounds and tiny greens with

0:40:56.280 --> 0:40:58.720
<v Speaker 2>deep bunkers around them and lakes on every other hole,

0:40:59.360 --> 0:41:02.440
<v Speaker 2>and and you know, we talked, we want to do

0:41:02.520 --> 0:41:05.600
<v Speaker 2>the dead opposite of that. I mean, not one mound

0:41:05.640 --> 0:41:09.279
<v Speaker 2>on the golf course anywhere, and no lakes and know

0:41:09.640 --> 0:41:11.400
<v Speaker 2>this and that, you know, just picking out all the

0:41:11.440 --> 0:41:13.760
<v Speaker 2>things we could try to do different, and it wasn't.

0:41:14.200 --> 0:41:17.440
<v Speaker 2>That's terrible. I hate all that. It's like, God, there

0:41:17.440 --> 0:41:20.080
<v Speaker 2>have been so many of those. Yeah, let's just try

0:41:20.080 --> 0:41:22.919
<v Speaker 2>to do something that doesn't look anything like that at all.

0:41:23.280 --> 0:41:26.400
<v Speaker 1>Sounds like a few other Jack Nico discourses.

0:41:27.200 --> 0:41:29.399
<v Speaker 2>Well, yeah, he did a lot in the same style too,

0:41:29.400 --> 0:41:31.919
<v Speaker 2>Although to Jack credit, I mean He's done so many things.

0:41:31.920 --> 0:41:37.279
<v Speaker 2>He's tried everything over the years. But you know, you

0:41:37.360 --> 0:41:39.120
<v Speaker 2>get to the point where you've done so many courses,

0:41:39.120 --> 0:41:40.799
<v Speaker 2>it's like, oh, I got to do something different. I'm

0:41:40.880 --> 0:41:42.799
<v Speaker 2>just I'm just tired of this. I could do the

0:41:42.800 --> 0:41:45.480
<v Speaker 2>same thing, but I want to do something else.

0:41:45.480 --> 0:41:49.360
<v Speaker 1>You market it differently, too, right, is different than any project.

0:41:49.440 --> 0:41:51.640
<v Speaker 2>Well, yeah he's doing he might be doing one ten

0:41:51.680 --> 0:41:53.560
<v Speaker 2>miles away from where he did one ten years ago.

0:41:53.640 --> 0:41:55.200
<v Speaker 2>So it's you know, you got to change it a

0:41:55.200 --> 0:42:03.440
<v Speaker 2>little bit. But you know, when you know, in the

0:42:03.520 --> 0:42:07.879
<v Speaker 2>late nineteen eighties, everybody was building bunker everybody's bunkers looked

0:42:07.880 --> 0:42:12.840
<v Speaker 2>like Pte Dieseah long sixty yard long fairway bunkers with

0:42:13.000 --> 0:42:14.759
<v Speaker 2>sand fly on the bottom and a two or three

0:42:14.760 --> 0:42:17.080
<v Speaker 2>foot bank up to a flat fairway. That's what the

0:42:17.080 --> 0:42:19.399
<v Speaker 2>barrel looked like too, you know. And I'd just come

0:42:19.440 --> 0:42:23.480
<v Speaker 2>working for Pete Dye and and I thought, well, if

0:42:23.480 --> 0:42:26.040
<v Speaker 2>I do that, you know, I don't want to do that.

0:42:26.200 --> 0:42:30.920
<v Speaker 2>First of all, that would not that would not honor

0:42:30.960 --> 0:42:34.120
<v Speaker 2>mister Die at all, you know, that would just be copying.

0:42:34.719 --> 0:42:37.080
<v Speaker 2>And second of all, from a business standpoint, if you

0:42:37.120 --> 0:42:39.799
<v Speaker 2>wanted that, you'd hire a son, you're not gonna hire me.

0:42:40.520 --> 0:42:42.480
<v Speaker 2>You know, you don't need me to do that. You

0:42:42.520 --> 0:42:44.640
<v Speaker 2>could go to the source. So I need to do

0:42:44.680 --> 0:42:47.400
<v Speaker 2>something different than that. Whatever else I do got to

0:42:47.440 --> 0:42:51.560
<v Speaker 2>be different than that. And you know, I'd spent time

0:42:51.640 --> 0:42:54.399
<v Speaker 2>talking with Ben Crenshaw about design, and I spent time

0:42:54.480 --> 0:42:56.480
<v Speaker 2>and I kind of looked at all these golf courses

0:42:56.680 --> 0:42:59.840
<v Speaker 2>in the UK and all the classic courses in the US,

0:42:59.880 --> 0:43:02.600
<v Speaker 2>and they didn't look like that at all. And I'm like, well,

0:43:02.640 --> 0:43:04.640
<v Speaker 2>I could make I could build a course that looked

0:43:04.640 --> 0:43:07.000
<v Speaker 2>like Riviera. I could build a course that looked like

0:43:07.640 --> 0:43:09.839
<v Speaker 2>would all Spa. I could build a course that looked

0:43:09.880 --> 0:43:13.839
<v Speaker 2>like eighty other great old courses that nobody is trying

0:43:13.880 --> 0:43:16.600
<v Speaker 2>to do now. Mostly nobody's trying to do them because

0:43:16.640 --> 0:43:18.439
<v Speaker 2>nobody had a piece of land. It was very good,

0:43:18.920 --> 0:43:20.840
<v Speaker 2>but you know, the piece of land doesn't mean that

0:43:20.880 --> 0:43:24.080
<v Speaker 2>you have to do bunkering style a certain way. You know.

0:43:24.160 --> 0:43:28.080
<v Speaker 2>So Black Forest, you know, my crew was Gill Hansome,

0:43:28.120 --> 0:43:32.080
<v Speaker 2>Mike Davies, three of us built that golf course, and

0:43:34.480 --> 0:43:38.080
<v Speaker 2>you know we were it's it's through the black Forest.

0:43:38.160 --> 0:43:42.160
<v Speaker 2>Then there's a reason for that name. It was dark

0:43:42.239 --> 0:43:45.200
<v Speaker 2>in there, those trees are so thick and so close together.

0:43:45.280 --> 0:43:47.400
<v Speaker 2>It was just dark. I mean even when you cleared

0:43:47.440 --> 0:43:49.880
<v Speaker 2>out the golf course, you know in the evening, in

0:43:49.920 --> 0:43:52.120
<v Speaker 2>the late afternoon when the shadows are going out, it's

0:43:52.120 --> 0:43:57.720
<v Speaker 2>just black where the shadows are coming across. So I thought, well,

0:43:57.880 --> 0:44:00.560
<v Speaker 2>all these holes are going to look the same, you know,

0:44:00.600 --> 0:44:04.359
<v Speaker 2>they just look like they're surrounded by dense trees. So

0:44:04.800 --> 0:44:08.680
<v Speaker 2>we need to do big, flashy bunkering to make these

0:44:08.719 --> 0:44:12.279
<v Speaker 2>look different from one another. And you know, I tried

0:44:12.280 --> 0:44:13.720
<v Speaker 2>to do that a little bit at a high point,

0:44:13.719 --> 0:44:15.360
<v Speaker 2>but I wasn't very good at it. I had a

0:44:15.440 --> 0:44:19.600
<v Speaker 2>small bulldozer, so the bunkering was eclectic, you could say

0:44:19.640 --> 0:44:21.919
<v Speaker 2>that much for a high point, but it wasn't. There

0:44:21.920 --> 0:44:24.880
<v Speaker 2>were a few flashy sand bunkers that look kind of cool,

0:44:24.920 --> 0:44:27.920
<v Speaker 2>but there it wasn't consistent at all because I never

0:44:27.960 --> 0:44:30.040
<v Speaker 2>tried to build a bunker like that, you know, I

0:44:30.080 --> 0:44:31.879
<v Speaker 2>was just trying to figure out how you do it.

0:44:32.680 --> 0:44:37.440
<v Speaker 2>And so when we started Black Forest the fall, the

0:44:37.480 --> 0:44:40.560
<v Speaker 2>fall before, just before we started construction in the winter,

0:44:41.120 --> 0:44:44.480
<v Speaker 2>I took gill Hands to California. We started San Francisco

0:44:44.560 --> 0:44:49.480
<v Speaker 2>Golf Club and we went from there to pass Tiempo,

0:44:49.760 --> 0:44:55.319
<v Speaker 2>to Cypress Point, to the Valley Club, and to Riviera

0:44:55.800 --> 0:44:58.520
<v Speaker 2>an La Country Club, and we looked at all those

0:44:58.520 --> 0:45:01.799
<v Speaker 2>bunkers at Mackenzie and Billy Bell had built, and we

0:45:01.920 --> 0:45:04.520
<v Speaker 2>kind of paste out how big they were. We paced

0:45:04.560 --> 0:45:07.880
<v Speaker 2>out like how far the capes hung down into the bunkers,

0:45:09.400 --> 0:45:11.040
<v Speaker 2>and then we tried to build bunkers like that for

0:45:11.120 --> 0:45:14.360
<v Speaker 2>Black Forest, and nobody had tried to build bunkers like

0:45:14.360 --> 0:45:17.400
<v Speaker 2>that for like at least twenty or thirty years. You know.

0:45:17.840 --> 0:45:21.360
<v Speaker 2>I guess you could say that like George Fazio built

0:45:21.560 --> 0:45:23.520
<v Speaker 2>bunkers that kind of looked a little like that, or

0:45:23.560 --> 0:45:27.040
<v Speaker 2>Dick Wilson, but really, you know, nobody built them in

0:45:27.080 --> 0:45:31.920
<v Speaker 2>the eighties, so it was at least ten years everything

0:45:31.960 --> 0:45:35.160
<v Speaker 2>looked like Pete Did's. So you know, Black Forest didn't

0:45:35.200 --> 0:45:37.600
<v Speaker 2>get a lot of publicity at the time it was,

0:45:37.680 --> 0:45:43.279
<v Speaker 2>I was still unknown, but you know, those those were

0:45:43.320 --> 0:45:47.759
<v Speaker 2>the bunkers that really those were the first time any

0:45:47.800 --> 0:45:50.359
<v Speaker 2>of the modern architects had tried to build bunkers like that.

0:45:50.440 --> 0:45:53.840
<v Speaker 2>And now that's all that anybody ever does. So you

0:45:53.840 --> 0:45:56.840
<v Speaker 2>know it's time to go a different direction from that. Somebody,

0:45:56.880 --> 0:46:01.040
<v Speaker 2>please go a different direction. From that.

0:46:01.040 --> 0:46:05.560
<v Speaker 1>That's an amazing project in time, like the three man

0:46:05.600 --> 0:46:10.759
<v Speaker 1>crew there of you, Gil and Mike and where everybody

0:46:10.880 --> 0:46:11.680
<v Speaker 1>is now.

0:46:11.680 --> 0:46:16.000
<v Speaker 2>You know, and it is. Yeah. I've had cruise like

0:46:16.040 --> 0:46:20.120
<v Speaker 2>that on a lot of other projects, but they weren't

0:46:20.160 --> 0:46:22.600
<v Speaker 2>quite as long ago. So you don't know who those

0:46:22.680 --> 0:46:25.720
<v Speaker 2>guys are yet. Yeah, and you may never know because

0:46:26.400 --> 0:46:27.880
<v Speaker 2>some of them have to get out of the you know,

0:46:27.880 --> 0:46:30.920
<v Speaker 2>they're not all staying in the business. But we've had

0:46:31.640 --> 0:46:35.560
<v Speaker 2>a ton of talent, you know, I've had you know,

0:46:35.680 --> 0:46:39.319
<v Speaker 2>I've had golf courses where we had six guys like

0:46:39.400 --> 0:46:43.400
<v Speaker 2>that on site. The hell done. Don was talking about Stonewall.

0:46:43.640 --> 0:46:47.360
<v Speaker 2>The second course of Stonewall we had we had me

0:46:47.560 --> 0:46:51.760
<v Speaker 2>and him and all of my current associates shaping stuff,

0:46:52.400 --> 0:46:57.200
<v Speaker 2>and Bruce Heppner and Dan Proctor who worked for Bill

0:46:57.239 --> 0:47:01.080
<v Speaker 2>Corr forever, and Kyle fram when he was an intern,

0:47:01.239 --> 0:47:05.839
<v Speaker 2>and Philip when he was an intern, and Kai. I mean,

0:47:05.880 --> 0:47:10.400
<v Speaker 2>there's like Kelly Blake Moran, the architect who lives in Pennsylvania,

0:47:11.960 --> 0:47:14.520
<v Speaker 2>came to visit one day. I'd never met him before.

0:47:14.600 --> 0:47:16.520
<v Speaker 2>He just he just emailed me and said, can I

0:47:16.560 --> 0:47:18.920
<v Speaker 2>come and see what you're doing? I said, sure, so

0:47:19.840 --> 0:47:22.320
<v Speaker 2>he spent all day walking around with me on site

0:47:22.480 --> 0:47:25.279
<v Speaker 2>while I was like editing guys and checking in and

0:47:25.280 --> 0:47:28.360
<v Speaker 2>seeing how things were doing, and like every twenty minutes,

0:47:28.400 --> 0:47:30.920
<v Speaker 2>I'm pulling somebody off a piece of equipment to introduce him.

0:47:31.560 --> 0:47:32.920
<v Speaker 2>And like at the end of the day, he's like,

0:47:33.880 --> 0:47:36.480
<v Speaker 2>I can't believe how many people are working on this

0:47:37.200 --> 0:47:39.799
<v Speaker 2>that I you know, not just not just people, but

0:47:39.920 --> 0:47:42.319
<v Speaker 2>like guys who are sharp, who I've heard of and

0:47:42.440 --> 0:47:44.879
<v Speaker 2>you know, have heard good things about their work. It says,

0:47:44.880 --> 0:47:46.720
<v Speaker 2>how do you get all these people in one place

0:47:46.760 --> 0:47:49.640
<v Speaker 2>at the same time. And it's like, well, you just

0:47:49.719 --> 0:47:52.600
<v Speaker 2>have to, you know. Part of it says I had

0:47:52.600 --> 0:47:54.040
<v Speaker 2>to be willing to pay them all to be there.

0:47:54.920 --> 0:47:57.600
<v Speaker 2>You know, the client will pay more for talent, but

0:47:57.760 --> 0:48:01.320
<v Speaker 2>only to a point. So at some point you get like, okay,

0:48:01.360 --> 0:48:03.000
<v Speaker 2>this is as much as we'll pay you to shape

0:48:03.000 --> 0:48:05.919
<v Speaker 2>all of it. Now, who can you afford to have

0:48:06.200 --> 0:48:09.480
<v Speaker 2>do that? You know, Like unfortunately a lot of the

0:48:09.480 --> 0:48:14.600
<v Speaker 2>golf courses build overseas one shaper. You know, there'll be

0:48:14.680 --> 0:48:17.040
<v Speaker 2>other guys that are kind of finishing up behind him

0:48:17.120 --> 0:48:19.880
<v Speaker 2>or helping out at the start, but it's really just

0:48:20.160 --> 0:48:25.080
<v Speaker 2>one guy who's who just built another course for another

0:48:25.200 --> 0:48:28.120
<v Speaker 2>architect four months ago, and he comes in here to

0:48:28.200 --> 0:48:30.520
<v Speaker 2>just jam out all the bunkers and greens on a

0:48:30.520 --> 0:48:33.800
<v Speaker 2>golf course in three or four months, working eighty hours

0:48:33.800 --> 0:48:35.840
<v Speaker 2>a week, and then boom, he never sees it again.

0:48:36.400 --> 0:48:38.239
<v Speaker 2>That's the way construction companies work.

0:48:38.360 --> 0:48:42.160
<v Speaker 1>That's tough too, because you lose the collaborative aspect about it,

0:48:42.520 --> 0:48:45.759
<v Speaker 1>and you also lose like when you got a bunch

0:48:45.800 --> 0:48:48.319
<v Speaker 1>of young, hungry guys, there is a little bit of

0:48:48.360 --> 0:48:50.359
<v Speaker 1>a competitive aspect amongst them.

0:48:50.600 --> 0:48:51.320
<v Speaker 2>Oh, when they're.

0:48:51.080 --> 0:48:54.239
<v Speaker 1>Building out, you know, there's no question everybody wants to

0:48:54.239 --> 0:48:57.160
<v Speaker 1>build the you know, there's.

0:48:56.760 --> 0:48:59.719
<v Speaker 2>No question, and you know that can go too far.

0:49:00.440 --> 0:49:02.840
<v Speaker 2>We have done courses where I look back and I'm like,

0:49:03.080 --> 0:49:05.560
<v Speaker 2>you know, I just keep having to slap people down, like,

0:49:05.600 --> 0:49:08.959
<v Speaker 2>don't you know we don't need the eighteen wildest holes

0:49:08.960 --> 0:49:11.759
<v Speaker 2>anybody's ever seen here, So don't don't try to make

0:49:11.800 --> 0:49:14.680
<v Speaker 2>this hole even wilder than that green that Brian just

0:49:14.719 --> 0:49:18.759
<v Speaker 2>built over there. But but yeah, I mean, you know,

0:49:19.000 --> 0:49:20.839
<v Speaker 2>there's a lot of golf courses that are built where

0:49:20.840 --> 0:49:24.840
<v Speaker 2>there's only one talented guy and he doesn't even stick

0:49:24.880 --> 0:49:28.920
<v Speaker 2>around till they finish the green to plant it. So

0:49:28.960 --> 0:49:31.640
<v Speaker 2>the guy that follows up and like floats out the

0:49:31.680 --> 0:49:34.080
<v Speaker 2>green and plants it isn't the guy who shaped it.

0:49:34.120 --> 0:49:37.040
<v Speaker 2>And then the guy who shaped it. On some of

0:49:37.040 --> 0:49:39.239
<v Speaker 2>those jobs, they never come back. And see, like when

0:49:39.239 --> 0:49:43.400
<v Speaker 2>we Lost Dunes, we were doing three courses at the

0:49:43.440 --> 0:49:46.040
<v Speaker 2>same time. So Lost Dunes was one of the one

0:49:46.040 --> 0:49:48.359
<v Speaker 2>of the few golf courses that I've had that I've

0:49:48.400 --> 0:49:50.560
<v Speaker 2>done that was built by one of the big golf

0:49:50.560 --> 0:49:58.120
<v Speaker 2>course contractors with their shapers. Amazingly enough, one of my

0:49:58.160 --> 0:50:00.879
<v Speaker 2>most severe sets of greens. But the the one key

0:50:01.000 --> 0:50:03.200
<v Speaker 2>shaper guy they had there was a guy named Jeremy

0:50:03.200 --> 0:50:07.000
<v Speaker 2>Miller who was really talented, and it was like the

0:50:07.040 --> 0:50:11.040
<v Speaker 2>first time anybody let him like go wild and be creative,

0:50:11.800 --> 0:50:16.080
<v Speaker 2>and he he did some really cool stuff, and then

0:50:16.120 --> 0:50:18.000
<v Speaker 2>he got hired by Jack Nicholas. He worked for Jack

0:50:18.080 --> 0:50:22.640
<v Speaker 2>for a bunch of years after that. But but there

0:50:22.719 --> 0:50:26.600
<v Speaker 2>was this older shaper on that project, and you know,

0:50:26.719 --> 0:50:29.200
<v Speaker 2>he was he was shaping up the side of this

0:50:29.239 --> 0:50:32.200
<v Speaker 2>one hole, and you know, he was just making everything

0:50:32.280 --> 0:50:35.319
<v Speaker 2>too big and too exaggerated. And I was looking at

0:50:35.360 --> 0:50:38.480
<v Speaker 2>and I was thinking, you know, he's trying to make

0:50:38.520 --> 0:50:43.280
<v Speaker 2>it look a certain way. In the dirt when everything's monotone,

0:50:43.360 --> 0:50:46.400
<v Speaker 2>and he's not really visualizing that there's going to be

0:50:46.520 --> 0:50:49.160
<v Speaker 2>long grass over there and that's going to provide contrast.

0:50:49.200 --> 0:50:50.879
<v Speaker 2>And you don't need to be going up and down

0:50:50.960 --> 0:50:53.600
<v Speaker 2>like he's going up and down to you know, he's

0:50:53.640 --> 0:50:57.000
<v Speaker 2>just trying to make contrast. And I got something else

0:50:57.040 --> 0:50:58.560
<v Speaker 2>that's going to do that. So I don't really need

0:50:58.640 --> 0:51:00.879
<v Speaker 2>him to be doing what he's doing. So I went

0:51:00.920 --> 0:51:03.640
<v Speaker 2>over to talk to him. I was just I didn't

0:51:03.640 --> 0:51:04.799
<v Speaker 2>know him for it. I didn't know him at all.

0:51:04.920 --> 0:51:11.120
<v Speaker 2>Striking up a conversation, I said, do you ever go

0:51:11.280 --> 0:51:13.640
<v Speaker 2>back to the courses that you built and see what

0:51:13.680 --> 0:51:19.160
<v Speaker 2>they look like? No? No, twenty years in the business

0:51:19.200 --> 0:51:21.720
<v Speaker 2>and he had never seen anything he'd shaped with grass

0:51:21.719 --> 0:51:29.160
<v Speaker 2>on it. We have a different approach to that.

0:51:29.160 --> 0:51:33.440
<v Speaker 1>That's uh, that's that's a I guess when you look

0:51:33.480 --> 0:51:36.799
<v Speaker 1>at a lot of golf courses, it makes sense, but

0:51:37.040 --> 0:51:40.960
<v Speaker 1>it's it's very frightening. It's kind of sad, actually, is

0:51:40.960 --> 0:51:43.560
<v Speaker 1>that I couldn't imagine building all those golf courses never

0:51:43.640 --> 0:51:44.400
<v Speaker 1>going to play.

0:51:44.239 --> 0:51:47.080
<v Speaker 2>Them, right, I mean, yeah, for the I mean like

0:51:47.200 --> 0:51:49.799
<v Speaker 2>all the young people that work for me or you know,

0:51:49.920 --> 0:51:53.160
<v Speaker 2>the only thing that motivated me when I was twenty

0:51:53.239 --> 0:51:55.799
<v Speaker 2>years old and working on a construction crew for Pete

0:51:55.880 --> 0:52:00.080
<v Speaker 2>Dye and Blistering Sun at Long Cove. You know, it's like,

0:52:02.400 --> 0:52:04.319
<v Speaker 2>what's this going to look like when it finishes it?

0:52:04.680 --> 0:52:06.480
<v Speaker 2>And what's it going to be like to come back

0:52:06.480 --> 0:52:10.040
<v Speaker 2>and play here? And you know, if if you don't

0:52:10.120 --> 0:52:13.000
<v Speaker 2>have something like that in your head through the construction process,

0:52:13.040 --> 0:52:14.640
<v Speaker 2>I don't know why anybody would stay in the business

0:52:14.719 --> 0:52:17.759
<v Speaker 2>very long. I mean, other than that, it's just a

0:52:17.800 --> 0:52:21.440
<v Speaker 2>lot of long days in hot and nasty weather that

0:52:21.480 --> 0:52:24.200
<v Speaker 2>you get really dirty, and you know, if you're not

0:52:24.360 --> 0:52:28.160
<v Speaker 2>visualizing the finished product at some level of I want

0:52:28.200 --> 0:52:32.560
<v Speaker 2>to enjoy this when it's done, you know, it would suck.

0:52:33.080 --> 0:52:35.480
<v Speaker 2>That's I mean one of the things about when you know,

0:52:35.560 --> 0:52:38.640
<v Speaker 2>the few times we've built, of course it's like super

0:52:38.680 --> 0:52:41.759
<v Speaker 2>exclusive private, it's kind of the same problem. It's like

0:52:41.840 --> 0:52:44.239
<v Speaker 2>even my crew is like, we ever going to be

0:52:44.320 --> 0:52:47.440
<v Speaker 2>able to come back here? You know, they lose motivation

0:52:47.600 --> 0:52:51.480
<v Speaker 2>at some point if it's like, well no, I mean,

0:52:52.160 --> 0:52:56.359
<v Speaker 2>you know, you guys, maybe you can come with Tom someday.

0:52:57.160 --> 0:52:59.480
<v Speaker 1>Thanks for spending a few months here.

0:53:00.120 --> 0:53:03.200
<v Speaker 2>We'll see it. We'll see it right. And I hate

0:53:03.239 --> 0:53:05.520
<v Speaker 2>to say it, but you know, the quality of the

0:53:05.560 --> 0:53:08.480
<v Speaker 2>work goes down if those guys aren't that motivated about

0:53:08.520 --> 0:53:12.239
<v Speaker 2>that part of it. So it's hard to keep the

0:53:12.320 --> 0:53:14.400
<v Speaker 2>morale up from start to finish. That's one of the

0:53:14.480 --> 0:53:16.520
<v Speaker 2>hardest things about building a golf course. It takes a

0:53:16.560 --> 0:53:19.319
<v Speaker 2>long time, and you get excited about it for a

0:53:19.320 --> 0:53:21.640
<v Speaker 2>little while, but it's hard to keep that going for

0:53:23.200 --> 0:53:26.080
<v Speaker 2>six or nine months or more or two and a

0:53:26.120 --> 0:53:33.800
<v Speaker 2>half years. And and you can tell when it looks

0:53:33.880 --> 0:53:35.880
<v Speaker 2>like you know, when it looks like you get to

0:53:35.920 --> 0:53:37.800
<v Speaker 2>a really dull stretch of the golf course, or it

0:53:37.840 --> 0:53:39.719
<v Speaker 2>looks like they ran out of money to build it.

0:53:40.080 --> 0:53:42.719
<v Speaker 2>That's usually the problem. It's like too late in the game.

0:53:43.680 --> 0:53:48.480
<v Speaker 2>Everybody moved on, got to get it finished.

0:53:49.239 --> 0:53:52.880
<v Speaker 1>It's like when I have a newsletter that I is

0:53:52.960 --> 0:53:55.360
<v Speaker 1>due the next morning and it's like midnight on a

0:53:56.239 --> 0:53:59.080
<v Speaker 1>Tuesday night and it's going out at six am on

0:53:59.120 --> 0:54:02.600
<v Speaker 1>the next Wednesday. You know, there's topics I just decide

0:54:02.640 --> 0:54:06.680
<v Speaker 1>that don't need very much color to them. It's uh,

0:54:06.840 --> 0:54:10.840
<v Speaker 1>so we got we got a little off subject. We'll dive,

0:54:11.680 --> 0:54:15.239
<v Speaker 1>we got a couple quick questions, and then we'll do

0:54:15.320 --> 0:54:22.600
<v Speaker 1>a few overrated underrats. What's the most overrated and most

0:54:22.760 --> 0:54:24.800
<v Speaker 1>underrated course in the state of Michigan.

0:54:26.440 --> 0:54:36.400
<v Speaker 2>Oh oh man, what's the most overrated course in the state.

0:54:36.280 --> 0:54:38.200
<v Speaker 1>Of Mission And this is from Chris McCann.

0:54:38.480 --> 0:54:43.120
<v Speaker 2>I mean, usually the most overrated course is is a

0:54:43.160 --> 0:54:45.879
<v Speaker 2>tour course that you know, you know about because they've

0:54:45.920 --> 0:54:49.279
<v Speaker 2>been playing it forever, but it's not really good. They've

0:54:49.320 --> 0:54:52.120
<v Speaker 2>just been playing it forever, so everybody knows it. But

0:54:52.200 --> 0:54:55.040
<v Speaker 2>there's not really much of that here. I mean Warwick

0:54:55.120 --> 0:54:57.279
<v Speaker 2>Hills where they had to buick open. Nobody ever thought

0:54:57.280 --> 0:54:59.600
<v Speaker 2>that was a great golf course. Now I remember. It's

0:54:59.640 --> 0:55:01.480
<v Speaker 2>It's fun tell you how things change. I mean, like

0:55:01.560 --> 0:55:04.040
<v Speaker 2>nineteen seventy that was one of the harder courses on

0:55:04.160 --> 0:55:07.160
<v Speaker 2>tour because it was fairly long and narrow, and then

0:55:07.200 --> 0:55:09.839
<v Speaker 2>by like two thousand it was like who could choose

0:55:09.880 --> 0:55:15.400
<v Speaker 2>twenty eight under here? So things do change. But so

0:55:15.520 --> 0:55:18.759
<v Speaker 2>the most overrated course, unfortunately, in that case, will be

0:55:18.800 --> 0:55:22.600
<v Speaker 2>the one that, you know, some very expensive, modern, hyped

0:55:22.680 --> 0:55:25.719
<v Speaker 2>up project that doesn't really live up to it. I

0:55:25.840 --> 0:55:28.040
<v Speaker 2>might have to take a pass on which one that is.

0:55:29.680 --> 0:55:33.680
<v Speaker 2>Your readers, your listeners can probably fill in the blanks.

0:55:33.680 --> 0:55:35.279
<v Speaker 2>But I'm just going to take a pass on that

0:55:36.760 --> 0:55:44.680
<v Speaker 2>most underrated Belvedere Never. It shouldn't make a list of

0:55:44.719 --> 0:55:47.479
<v Speaker 2>the best courses in the country. It's not that good,

0:55:48.200 --> 0:55:55.279
<v Speaker 2>but a very good golf course. You know that, you know,

0:55:56.000 --> 0:55:58.480
<v Speaker 2>pretty much under the radar except for people in Michigan

0:55:58.520 --> 0:55:59.960
<v Speaker 2>that played in the Michiganian.

0:56:00.680 --> 0:56:03.800
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, and people that listened to our first podcast. Yes,

0:56:04.120 --> 0:56:07.360
<v Speaker 1>because I got I got emails all the time. I

0:56:07.360 --> 0:56:09.280
<v Speaker 1>went to Belladere Man that was awesome.

0:56:09.560 --> 0:56:09.840
<v Speaker 2>Cool.

0:56:10.040 --> 0:56:12.480
<v Speaker 1>So that's uh, sooner.

0:56:12.239 --> 0:56:13.959
<v Speaker 2>Or later we'll ruin it and I'll jack the green

0:56:13.960 --> 0:56:16.600
<v Speaker 2>fie up tow one hundred and fifty dollars. Yeah.

0:56:16.680 --> 0:56:19.279
<v Speaker 1>I think the Michigan, Michigan Dam's back there this year.

0:56:19.400 --> 0:56:25.680
<v Speaker 1>I think somebody told me that, all right, m overrated,

0:56:25.800 --> 0:56:32.239
<v Speaker 1>underrated the southeast Michigan golf scene. And this is you know,

0:56:32.280 --> 0:56:35.520
<v Speaker 1>this is a question turned overrated, underrated. But it's in

0:56:35.600 --> 0:56:40.040
<v Speaker 1>comparison to like Philly, New York, Columbus.

0:56:40.239 --> 0:56:45.319
<v Speaker 2>Oh so the Detroit area as compared to well, I

0:56:45.360 --> 0:56:45.719
<v Speaker 2>don't know.

0:56:46.880 --> 0:56:49.239
<v Speaker 1>I think comparing it to that might be.

0:56:49.600 --> 0:56:52.359
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I mean compared to Philadelphia. It's not even close

0:56:52.400 --> 0:56:55.439
<v Speaker 2>to Philadelphia. But I don't know that anybody's I don't

0:56:55.480 --> 0:56:59.600
<v Speaker 2>know that anybody's made that comparison. Yes, Detroit is definitely better.

0:57:00.320 --> 0:57:07.840
<v Speaker 2>I mean there are there's a good little second tier

0:57:07.880 --> 0:57:12.280
<v Speaker 2>of golf courses around Detroit that people don't talk about

0:57:12.320 --> 0:57:16.560
<v Speaker 2>that much. But they're actually pretty good courses like Meadowbrook

0:57:16.680 --> 0:57:23.280
<v Speaker 2>and Red Run and Birmingham. And I'd never been to

0:57:23.360 --> 0:57:26.800
<v Speaker 2>Barton Hills and ann Arbor till a couple of years

0:57:26.800 --> 0:57:30.400
<v Speaker 2>ago I went there. Somebody suggested I'd go there and

0:57:30.480 --> 0:57:33.160
<v Speaker 2>get it in the confidential god, way better than I

0:57:33.240 --> 0:57:37.160
<v Speaker 2>expected it to be, way better. In fact, I probably

0:57:37.160 --> 0:57:38.760
<v Speaker 2>should have had that. I was one of my ten

0:57:38.880 --> 0:57:45.000
<v Speaker 2>rounds of golf in Michigan. But but do those courses

0:57:45.120 --> 0:57:47.840
<v Speaker 2>compare to this? You know, the second tier in New

0:57:47.920 --> 0:57:52.440
<v Speaker 2>York is like the Creek Club and Piping Rock and

0:57:52.600 --> 0:57:59.720
<v Speaker 2>Garden City and Quicker Ridge. So now Detroit isn't Detroit.

0:58:00.480 --> 0:58:04.520
<v Speaker 2>If I had to rank ten best metropolitan areas, it

0:58:04.600 --> 0:58:07.120
<v Speaker 2>might be around tenth, but it's not in the top five.

0:58:08.280 --> 0:58:10.560
<v Speaker 2>So I don't think I don't think it's underrated. I

0:58:10.600 --> 0:58:13.000
<v Speaker 2>don't think it's overrated because you know, people don't talk

0:58:13.000 --> 0:58:14.840
<v Speaker 2>about it like it belongs in there, or at least

0:58:14.840 --> 0:58:16.120
<v Speaker 2>outside Michigan, they don't.

0:58:16.560 --> 0:58:19.919
<v Speaker 1>One of the cool things I find with Detroit. I've

0:58:19.960 --> 0:58:22.800
<v Speaker 1>never played in Detroit, but just from one of the

0:58:22.840 --> 0:58:24.960
<v Speaker 1>reasons I think I'm going to go visit there this

0:58:25.040 --> 0:58:28.840
<v Speaker 1>summer is that they have such a variety of Golden

0:58:28.880 --> 0:58:32.520
<v Speaker 1>Age architects that work there, Right, Walter Travis, Donald Ross,

0:58:32.880 --> 0:58:39.920
<v Speaker 1>Willie Watson, Alison Colt, you know.

0:58:40.280 --> 0:58:45.520
<v Speaker 2>Right, Allison Allison was based there for like five or

0:58:45.560 --> 0:58:49.160
<v Speaker 2>six years. You know, he ran Colt's Office in America

0:58:49.600 --> 0:58:52.680
<v Speaker 2>out of Detroit in the twenties. That was his base

0:58:52.760 --> 0:58:55.280
<v Speaker 2>of operation in the twenties when he was building Milwaukee

0:58:55.360 --> 0:58:57.840
<v Speaker 2>Country Club, and you know, and he did he did

0:58:57.880 --> 0:59:00.920
<v Speaker 2>the country He redid the Country Club of Detroit. I

0:59:03.280 --> 0:59:05.560
<v Speaker 2>have not been to Orchard Lake, but I hear it's

0:59:05.600 --> 0:59:07.720
<v Speaker 2>really good too. He did two or three things around

0:59:07.720 --> 0:59:11.640
<v Speaker 2>there that are that are very good, that kind of

0:59:11.640 --> 0:59:13.840
<v Speaker 2>fly under the radar a little bit. You know, his

0:59:13.960 --> 0:59:19.240
<v Speaker 2>name just doesn't you know. There's there's mackenzie and McDonald

0:59:19.280 --> 0:59:22.040
<v Speaker 2>and Ross and tilling Hast and Colet, and he's not

0:59:22.160 --> 0:59:26.880
<v Speaker 2>in there, so people overlook him a lot. And yeah,

0:59:26.920 --> 0:59:29.479
<v Speaker 2>from that standpoint, you're right, there's a lot of there's

0:59:29.520 --> 0:59:33.440
<v Speaker 2>a lot of stuff in Detroit that that weren't designed

0:59:33.440 --> 0:59:36.440
<v Speaker 2>by the big name guys that are pretty good, and

0:59:36.480 --> 0:59:39.800
<v Speaker 2>they just don't get near as much publicity because they

0:59:39.800 --> 0:59:42.520
<v Speaker 2>weren't designed by Ross or tilling.

0:59:42.200 --> 0:59:49.280
<v Speaker 1>Hast Lions Analysis overrated, underrated Oakland Hills South Course.

0:59:52.080 --> 0:59:54.920
<v Speaker 2>I think Oakland Hills South Course is a great golf course.

0:59:55.120 --> 0:59:58.720
<v Speaker 2>You know, they have tinkered with it a ton. The

0:59:58.800 --> 1:00:01.400
<v Speaker 2>present version of it is probably not as good as

1:00:01.400 --> 1:00:03.680
<v Speaker 2>the one I remember from twenty five years ago when

1:00:03.720 --> 1:00:08.200
<v Speaker 2>I first moved here. But they still have the same

1:00:08.240 --> 1:00:13.640
<v Speaker 2>set of greens, and that's at least fifty percent. You know,

1:00:13.840 --> 1:00:15.920
<v Speaker 2>it's still a good piece of land. It's still the

1:00:15.960 --> 1:00:18.200
<v Speaker 2>same routing. They still have a great set of greens

1:00:18.480 --> 1:00:21.400
<v Speaker 2>that goes a long long way. So I still think

1:00:21.440 --> 1:00:23.720
<v Speaker 2>it's a great golf course. You know, I wouldn't want

1:00:23.720 --> 1:00:26.600
<v Speaker 2>to play it from anywhere near the back tees anywhere

1:00:26.640 --> 1:00:28.840
<v Speaker 2>near them now, But that's another story.

1:00:30.040 --> 1:00:33.880
<v Speaker 1>So if you built a golf course with eighteen great greens,

1:00:33.960 --> 1:00:38.520
<v Speaker 1>like how enft would you have to be with everything

1:00:38.560 --> 1:00:41.479
<v Speaker 1>else for the golf course not to be like pretty good,

1:00:43.200 --> 1:00:43.720
<v Speaker 1>You'd have.

1:00:43.680 --> 1:00:46.040
<v Speaker 2>To be you know, you'd have to be stumbling around

1:00:46.080 --> 1:00:50.000
<v Speaker 2>and just making the visibility into them would have to

1:00:50.000 --> 1:00:52.880
<v Speaker 2>be horrible. You know, a great set of greens that

1:00:52.920 --> 1:00:55.280
<v Speaker 2>you can't really see what's going on from the fairway.

1:00:55.320 --> 1:00:57.920
<v Speaker 2>That wouldn't be very good. But it's hard to believe

1:00:57.920 --> 1:01:00.320
<v Speaker 2>that you're going to do get the greens right and

1:01:00.360 --> 1:01:01.040
<v Speaker 2>get that wrong.

1:01:02.800 --> 1:01:07.360
<v Speaker 1>All right, another edition in the books and we'll be

1:01:07.440 --> 1:01:10.240
<v Speaker 1>back in a couple of weeks. But thanks again for

1:01:10.320 --> 1:01:12.280
<v Speaker 1>the time, Tom and Don.

1:01:12.840 --> 1:01:14.520
<v Speaker 2>Thanks for coming to visit us up here.

1:01:15.000 --> 1:01:17.040
<v Speaker 3>Our pleasure any thanks for making the trip.

1:01:17.280 --> 1:01:23.960
<v Speaker 1>Thank you you've been listening to the fried Egg podcast.

1:01:24.400 --> 1:01:25.960
<v Speaker 2>We do the digging for you.