1 00:00:00,760 --> 00:00:04,000 Speaker 1: Hey, welcome to Sign Stuff, a production of iHeartRadio. My 2 00:00:04,080 --> 00:00:05,920 Speaker 1: name is Hoorge Jam and to me. On the program, 3 00:00:05,960 --> 00:00:09,280 Speaker 1: we are answering the question do animals, like your pet 4 00:00:09,400 --> 00:00:13,640 Speaker 1: or animals in the wild understand death. We're gonna be 5 00:00:13,640 --> 00:00:16,799 Speaker 1: talking to a psychologist who's been studying chimpanzees for over 6 00:00:16,920 --> 00:00:19,759 Speaker 1: forty years, and we're gonna hear from a philosopher of 7 00:00:19,920 --> 00:00:23,119 Speaker 1: animal minds got obsessed with this topic as a way 8 00:00:23,239 --> 00:00:27,440 Speaker 1: to deal with their own mortality. So do dogs dwell 9 00:00:27,520 --> 00:00:31,000 Speaker 1: on their own demise or do possums ponder their pastor? 10 00:00:32,159 --> 00:00:35,360 Speaker 1: Let's find out as we answer the question do animals 11 00:00:35,600 --> 00:00:36,840 Speaker 1: understand death? 12 00:00:40,920 --> 00:00:41,120 Speaker 2: Hey? 13 00:00:41,120 --> 00:00:43,600 Speaker 1: Everyone, I thought I'd start the episode with one of 14 00:00:43,600 --> 00:00:47,400 Speaker 1: the most fascinating interviews I've done for this show. It's 15 00:00:47,479 --> 00:00:51,239 Speaker 1: with a psychologist named James Anderson. Doctor Anderson is now 16 00:00:51,240 --> 00:00:54,880 Speaker 1: a professor emeritus at Kyoto University, and he has spent 17 00:00:54,920 --> 00:00:58,840 Speaker 1: the last forty years studying chimpanzees and monkeys and their 18 00:00:58,880 --> 00:01:03,120 Speaker 1: behavior they eat, sleep, and work together. But then in 19 00:01:03,120 --> 00:01:06,959 Speaker 1: two thousand and eight, something incredible happened. His team of 20 00:01:07,000 --> 00:01:11,000 Speaker 1: researchers recorded, for the first time ever on video, the 21 00:01:11,120 --> 00:01:15,440 Speaker 1: passing away of an adult chimpanzee surrounded by her close group. 22 00:01:16,080 --> 00:01:18,920 Speaker 1: One of his students, Louise Locke, was studying a group 23 00:01:18,959 --> 00:01:22,000 Speaker 1: of chimpanzees at the Blair Drummon Safari Park in the 24 00:01:22,000 --> 00:01:24,600 Speaker 1: middle of Scotland, and she was just there to study 25 00:01:24,680 --> 00:01:28,480 Speaker 1: their sleep patterns, but almost by accident, they happened to 26 00:01:28,520 --> 00:01:33,120 Speaker 1: record the moment of death of a chimpanzee named Pansy. 27 00:01:33,600 --> 00:01:35,600 Speaker 1: Here's how doctor Anderson describes it. 28 00:01:36,640 --> 00:01:40,600 Speaker 2: One member of the chimpanzee group was at the time 29 00:01:40,680 --> 00:01:46,039 Speaker 2: the oldest chimpanzee in the UK. She was around sixty 30 00:01:46,120 --> 00:01:50,040 Speaker 2: years of age. She had been a circus chimpanzee in 31 00:01:50,120 --> 00:01:55,240 Speaker 2: her early life, but she was now suffering from age 32 00:01:55,400 --> 00:01:59,720 Speaker 2: relate to diseases. And then one day the keeper of 33 00:01:59,760 --> 00:02:05,440 Speaker 2: the chimpanzees noticed that she was breathing very heavily and 34 00:02:05,680 --> 00:02:08,040 Speaker 2: she thought she's not going to last very long. 35 00:02:09,120 --> 00:02:13,080 Speaker 1: So the oldest chimpanzee in the UK, Pansy looked like 36 00:02:13,120 --> 00:02:16,480 Speaker 1: she was about to pass away. At this point, this 37 00:02:16,800 --> 00:02:19,480 Speaker 1: very part caretaker had to make a choice about what 38 00:02:19,720 --> 00:02:23,000 Speaker 1: to do, and he decided to let nature take its 39 00:02:23,040 --> 00:02:26,960 Speaker 1: course and let her pass away. Surrounded by her closed group. 40 00:02:27,440 --> 00:02:29,919 Speaker 1: He let her be, but he left the video camera 41 00:02:30,080 --> 00:02:33,600 Speaker 1: running all night. When the researchers reviewed the video the 42 00:02:33,600 --> 00:02:39,080 Speaker 1: next day, they were shocked. Can you describe what you 43 00:02:39,160 --> 00:02:40,160 Speaker 1: saw in that video? 44 00:02:40,919 --> 00:02:44,640 Speaker 2: Yes? Well, what was clear is that by the time 45 00:02:44,760 --> 00:02:49,840 Speaker 2: the video started, the old female chimpanzee, she was lying 46 00:02:50,280 --> 00:02:54,840 Speaker 2: up on a platform. Occasionally the chimpanzees would come over 47 00:02:55,400 --> 00:03:00,600 Speaker 2: and groom the old female. But then three of the 48 00:03:01,240 --> 00:03:05,560 Speaker 2: chimpanzees and the group came over and gathered around her 49 00:03:05,880 --> 00:03:09,400 Speaker 2: at once, and this was the first time this was happening, 50 00:03:09,960 --> 00:03:14,280 Speaker 2: and two of them were grooming her, her daughter and 51 00:03:14,400 --> 00:03:19,600 Speaker 2: her long term friend, another adult female, and then the 52 00:03:19,840 --> 00:03:24,480 Speaker 2: adult male in the group came over and he bent 53 00:03:24,760 --> 00:03:29,680 Speaker 2: down and looked closely into her face, and then he 54 00:03:29,760 --> 00:03:34,320 Speaker 2: took her by the shoulder and gradually shoot her shoulder 55 00:03:34,880 --> 00:03:39,680 Speaker 2: while staring at close range into her face. And then 56 00:03:39,800 --> 00:03:43,640 Speaker 2: he laid her shoulder back down on the ground, looked 57 00:03:43,680 --> 00:03:45,640 Speaker 2: at her, and then moved away. 58 00:03:47,200 --> 00:03:50,240 Speaker 1: As Pansy laid there dying, her daughter and her best 59 00:03:50,280 --> 00:03:53,600 Speaker 1: friend gathered around her and seemed to be comforting her, 60 00:03:53,760 --> 00:03:56,880 Speaker 1: holding her hand and grooming her. The adult male of 61 00:03:56,920 --> 00:03:59,400 Speaker 1: the group came and shook her as if he was 62 00:03:59,440 --> 00:04:02,920 Speaker 1: trying to shake her back to life. 63 00:04:03,120 --> 00:04:08,000 Speaker 2: A few moments later, Rosie, her daughter, and then her 64 00:04:08,120 --> 00:04:13,880 Speaker 2: lifelong friend remained holding her hand, and that was most 65 00:04:14,240 --> 00:04:19,480 Speaker 2: of the contacts over the next several hours. Not long 66 00:04:19,560 --> 00:04:23,240 Speaker 2: after that period, the female was dead by then, and 67 00:04:23,560 --> 00:04:27,039 Speaker 2: what we had witnessed was the precise moment where the 68 00:04:27,160 --> 00:04:32,560 Speaker 2: adult male seemed to be checking for any signs of 69 00:04:32,640 --> 00:04:37,719 Speaker 2: life and perhaps realizing that she had gone, when the 70 00:04:37,880 --> 00:04:41,719 Speaker 2: other two members of the group were giving the final 71 00:04:41,800 --> 00:04:47,440 Speaker 2: moments of comfort to the adult female. Her daughter slept 72 00:04:47,640 --> 00:04:51,520 Speaker 2: beside her all night long, and then the following morning 73 00:04:51,640 --> 00:04:55,400 Speaker 2: her long term friend came over and sat by her, 74 00:04:55,720 --> 00:04:59,280 Speaker 2: and because of that responses by the male, he had 75 00:04:59,360 --> 00:05:03,960 Speaker 2: left some straw on her, so she gently cleaned the 76 00:05:04,040 --> 00:05:07,560 Speaker 2: straw of her body and her face and just sat 77 00:05:07,640 --> 00:05:08,760 Speaker 2: by her for a while. 78 00:05:08,920 --> 00:05:13,320 Speaker 1: Wow. Now what amazed doctor Anderson was how close this 79 00:05:13,440 --> 00:05:17,920 Speaker 1: behavior was what you might observe in humans. Pessy's family 80 00:05:18,120 --> 00:05:20,960 Speaker 1: seemed to have gathered to accompany her and to be 81 00:05:21,040 --> 00:05:24,520 Speaker 1: close to her in her final moments. When doctor Anderson 82 00:05:24,520 --> 00:05:27,440 Speaker 1: and his team wrote a paper describing this video, they 83 00:05:27,440 --> 00:05:30,680 Speaker 1: wrote about how this seemed very similar to what humans 84 00:05:30,760 --> 00:05:32,400 Speaker 1: would do. Here was his reaction. 85 00:05:33,320 --> 00:05:37,479 Speaker 2: That's what I described in the paper some of the 86 00:05:37,720 --> 00:05:43,400 Speaker 2: responses that have been described in human societies when they're 87 00:05:43,480 --> 00:05:47,960 Speaker 2: dealing with the final moments of our whose relative we 88 00:05:48,200 --> 00:05:55,120 Speaker 2: see time and time again. This gentle contacts quietness, caressing 89 00:05:55,360 --> 00:06:01,640 Speaker 2: the corpse sometimes in some individuals, and outburst of anger 90 00:06:02,240 --> 00:06:09,040 Speaker 2: directed towards the crops, especially by close relatives who really 91 00:06:09,120 --> 00:06:14,159 Speaker 2: feel anger at being left. Attempts to check for signs 92 00:06:14,200 --> 00:06:17,440 Speaker 2: of life. You know, now we humans, we've got more 93 00:06:17,760 --> 00:06:21,200 Speaker 2: medical ways of doing it, checking for pulse. But you know, 94 00:06:21,279 --> 00:06:27,640 Speaker 2: the chimpanzee was doing what he knows. We concluded by saying, well, 95 00:06:27,760 --> 00:06:32,880 Speaker 2: at least some aspects of the response to the peaceful 96 00:06:33,080 --> 00:06:38,720 Speaker 2: death within our group may have parallels between chimpanzees and 97 00:06:39,040 --> 00:06:42,960 Speaker 2: our own species. And I've got some interesting reactions. 98 00:06:43,560 --> 00:06:47,120 Speaker 1: When doctor Anderson published the paper describing this video, along 99 00:06:47,120 --> 00:06:50,960 Speaker 1: with his PhD student and the Safari Parks caretaker, caused 100 00:06:51,080 --> 00:06:55,360 Speaker 1: a media frenzy is university. At the time, the University 101 00:06:55,360 --> 00:06:59,440 Speaker 1: of Stirling was inundated with phone calls and emails. They 102 00:06:59,480 --> 00:07:02,599 Speaker 1: were invited to be on TV, radio magazines in the 103 00:07:02,720 --> 00:07:05,479 Speaker 1: UK and across the world, and it helped give a 104 00:07:05,560 --> 00:07:10,600 Speaker 1: spark to the general conversation about whether animals understand death now. 105 00:07:10,640 --> 00:07:13,480 Speaker 1: Part of the excitement here is that these observations of 106 00:07:13,560 --> 00:07:17,120 Speaker 1: animals at moments of death are rare. One of the 107 00:07:17,160 --> 00:07:20,800 Speaker 1: closest examples on record that doctor Anderson could find had 108 00:07:20,800 --> 00:07:25,520 Speaker 1: happened thirty years before in the Gombe National Park in Tanzania. 109 00:07:25,640 --> 00:07:31,600 Speaker 2: An accidental death reported in wild chimpanzees when an adult 110 00:07:31,720 --> 00:07:35,840 Speaker 2: male fell out of a tree and died instantly on 111 00:07:36,000 --> 00:07:39,400 Speaker 2: hitting the ground. And then the response of the other 112 00:07:39,560 --> 00:07:44,240 Speaker 2: chimpanzees couldn't have been more different. The group members erupted 113 00:07:44,640 --> 00:07:50,960 Speaker 2: into a frenzy of excitement and alarm, embracing each other, screaming, 114 00:07:51,560 --> 00:07:55,840 Speaker 2: running towards the body, staring at it but never coming 115 00:07:55,880 --> 00:08:01,520 Speaker 2: into contact with a disbelief at first, are running around 116 00:08:01,800 --> 00:08:06,720 Speaker 2: in almost panic. There was also lots of mutual embracing, 117 00:08:07,000 --> 00:08:10,400 Speaker 2: as if trying to reassure other individuals. 118 00:08:10,720 --> 00:08:13,280 Speaker 1: You know, my reaction when you just told that story 119 00:08:13,440 --> 00:08:16,560 Speaker 1: was that that also seems very human in how we 120 00:08:16,640 --> 00:08:19,040 Speaker 1: would react if we suddenly saw traumatic death. 121 00:08:19,320 --> 00:08:20,440 Speaker 2: Yes. Almost. 122 00:08:21,400 --> 00:08:24,440 Speaker 1: This paper also helped push forward a new field of 123 00:08:24,520 --> 00:08:29,720 Speaker 1: science called comparative thanatology. The word panatology means the study 124 00:08:29,760 --> 00:08:33,240 Speaker 1: of dying and it comes from Thanatos, the Greek god 125 00:08:33,400 --> 00:08:36,240 Speaker 1: of death, and yes, it's also what inspired the name 126 00:08:36,280 --> 00:08:39,560 Speaker 1: of the supervillain Thanus in the Marvel movies. Now, the 127 00:08:39,600 --> 00:08:44,760 Speaker 1: word comparative in comparative panatology means you're studying dying in 128 00:08:44,840 --> 00:08:48,520 Speaker 1: different species of animals, not just humans and apes, to 129 00:08:48,559 --> 00:08:50,920 Speaker 1: find out what they have in common and what that 130 00:08:51,000 --> 00:08:54,440 Speaker 1: tells us about evolution and whether humans are unique or 131 00:08:54,480 --> 00:08:57,800 Speaker 1: not in how we relate to our own mortality. Next, 132 00:08:57,840 --> 00:08:59,880 Speaker 1: we're going to talk to someone who's written a book 133 00:09:00,040 --> 00:09:04,400 Speaker 1: about comparative panatology and how animals understand death. And she's 134 00:09:04,400 --> 00:09:08,040 Speaker 1: looked at species ranging from ants to possums, to elephants 135 00:09:08,040 --> 00:09:10,640 Speaker 1: to wales, and when we come back, she can tell 136 00:09:10,679 --> 00:09:14,000 Speaker 1: us how all of these animals experience their own expiration. 137 00:09:14,640 --> 00:09:26,000 Speaker 1: Stay with us, you're listening to science stuff. Hey, welcome back. 138 00:09:26,200 --> 00:09:30,320 Speaker 1: We just talked about how chimpanzees are closest relatives react 139 00:09:30,360 --> 00:09:33,439 Speaker 1: to one of their own passing away. The question now 140 00:09:33,600 --> 00:09:37,280 Speaker 1: is how do other animals react to death? Are their 141 00:09:37,360 --> 00:09:40,760 Speaker 1: signs that they understand what it is. To answer this question, 142 00:09:40,960 --> 00:09:44,439 Speaker 1: I talk to someone who is a philosopher of animal minds. 143 00:09:44,600 --> 00:09:48,400 Speaker 1: Doctor Susanamonceau is a professor at the National University of 144 00:09:48,480 --> 00:09:51,600 Speaker 1: Distance Education in Spain, and she's written a book called 145 00:09:51,679 --> 00:09:56,080 Speaker 1: Playing Possum, How Animals Understand Death. I asked doctor Monse 146 00:09:56,280 --> 00:09:58,040 Speaker 1: what got her interested in this question. 147 00:09:58,760 --> 00:10:02,280 Speaker 3: I had done my PhD. Whether animals could behave morally, 148 00:10:02,320 --> 00:10:06,360 Speaker 3: whether they have emotions like empathy, and so I've always 149 00:10:06,360 --> 00:10:10,240 Speaker 3: been interested in questions that have to do with those 150 00:10:10,280 --> 00:10:13,280 Speaker 3: capacities that we tend to think of as uniquely human. 151 00:10:14,040 --> 00:10:19,600 Speaker 3: There was an emergence of field biologists documenting animals reacting 152 00:10:19,679 --> 00:10:23,720 Speaker 3: in interesting ways to dead individuals. At the same time, 153 00:10:23,720 --> 00:10:26,720 Speaker 3: there's also kind of a personal sight to the story. 154 00:10:27,200 --> 00:10:31,880 Speaker 3: I was about to turn thirty, and I think I 155 00:10:31,920 --> 00:10:35,079 Speaker 3: became obsessed with death. A lot of people have this 156 00:10:35,320 --> 00:10:40,640 Speaker 3: period of existential angst. My grandmother had just died, and 157 00:10:40,800 --> 00:10:44,880 Speaker 3: I think turning thirty also was symbolic in that really 158 00:10:44,960 --> 00:10:47,840 Speaker 3: a moment where you're definitely an adult. You can no 159 00:10:47,920 --> 00:10:51,600 Speaker 3: longer pretend like you're just a youngster. Yeah, I was 160 00:10:51,600 --> 00:10:52,400 Speaker 3: really afraid of it. 161 00:10:53,280 --> 00:10:55,959 Speaker 1: I asked doctor Mansa to tell us of different examples 162 00:10:55,960 --> 00:10:59,720 Speaker 1: from her book of animals reacting to another animal passing away, 163 00:11:00,000 --> 00:11:01,559 Speaker 1: starting with elephants. 164 00:11:02,280 --> 00:11:05,560 Speaker 3: So elephants is a typical animal that everyone thinks of. 165 00:11:05,840 --> 00:11:08,800 Speaker 3: Because elephants are like the animal that has some special 166 00:11:08,840 --> 00:11:12,280 Speaker 3: relationship with death, people think of elephant graveyards, which apparently 167 00:11:12,360 --> 00:11:14,600 Speaker 3: are a myth. They don't really seem to go any 168 00:11:14,640 --> 00:11:16,080 Speaker 3: specific place to die. 169 00:11:17,200 --> 00:11:21,160 Speaker 1: That's right. Elephant graveyards, meaning a special place where elephants 170 00:11:21,200 --> 00:11:24,079 Speaker 1: go when they're ready to die, are not really supported 171 00:11:24,120 --> 00:11:27,720 Speaker 1: by scientific evidence. It's probably more of a myth. However, 172 00:11:27,880 --> 00:11:30,920 Speaker 1: elephants do seem to act in a special way when 173 00:11:31,000 --> 00:11:34,000 Speaker 1: other elephants pass away, but. 174 00:11:34,000 --> 00:11:38,840 Speaker 3: They do seem to be very interested in death, and 175 00:11:38,960 --> 00:11:43,400 Speaker 3: specifically in the deaths of fellow elephants, and they will 176 00:11:43,920 --> 00:11:47,880 Speaker 3: visit the corpses of elephants that have died, even if 177 00:11:47,920 --> 00:11:52,120 Speaker 3: they're not related. They visit these corpses and they touch them, 178 00:11:52,400 --> 00:11:55,839 Speaker 3: they sniff them, they are very interested in them, which 179 00:11:55,880 --> 00:11:59,320 Speaker 3: doesn't happen with corpses of other animals. There's like a 180 00:11:59,400 --> 00:12:03,880 Speaker 3: parade of different elephant families that come to it and 181 00:12:04,520 --> 00:12:07,199 Speaker 3: interact with the corpse in some way, and some of 182 00:12:07,240 --> 00:12:11,679 Speaker 3: the interactions are tactile or factory, or sometimes they do 183 00:12:11,760 --> 00:12:14,960 Speaker 3: other interesting things like trying to put food in the 184 00:12:15,000 --> 00:12:17,600 Speaker 3: mouth of the elephant, trying to help it stand up. 185 00:12:18,760 --> 00:12:22,240 Speaker 1: So when an elephant has passed away, scientists have recorded 186 00:12:22,280 --> 00:12:25,480 Speaker 1: that other elephants will line up and one by one 187 00:12:26,000 --> 00:12:29,960 Speaker 1: smell and touch the dead elephant. In one famous experiment, 188 00:12:30,200 --> 00:12:33,200 Speaker 1: scientists place the skulls of different animals in front of 189 00:12:33,280 --> 00:12:36,720 Speaker 1: elephants to see which ones they would interact with. Some 190 00:12:36,760 --> 00:12:40,439 Speaker 1: of the skulls were of rhinoceross, some were of buffalo, 191 00:12:40,640 --> 00:12:44,439 Speaker 1: and some were of elephants. Scientists found that the elephants 192 00:12:44,480 --> 00:12:47,480 Speaker 1: would pick up and examine the skulls of elephants more 193 00:12:47,600 --> 00:12:50,360 Speaker 1: than they did the others, which meant that elephants have 194 00:12:50,400 --> 00:12:55,880 Speaker 1: a unique curiosity about dead members of their own species. Next, 195 00:12:56,000 --> 00:12:59,239 Speaker 1: doctor Monceaut talked about an orca named Tealiqua. 196 00:13:00,320 --> 00:13:03,560 Speaker 3: So perhaps one of the behaviors that has received the 197 00:13:03,600 --> 00:13:08,520 Speaker 3: most attention is that of deceased infant carrying. For instance, 198 00:13:08,520 --> 00:13:10,320 Speaker 3: there was a very famous case, the case of the 199 00:13:10,440 --> 00:13:14,280 Speaker 3: orca Teliqua, who made the news in the summer of 200 00:13:14,400 --> 00:13:18,160 Speaker 3: twenty eighteen when she was seen carrying her baby scorpse 201 00:13:18,200 --> 00:13:22,400 Speaker 3: for seventeen days and over one thousand miles, which is insane, 202 00:13:22,520 --> 00:13:24,960 Speaker 3: and she was recently in the news again because she 203 00:13:25,080 --> 00:13:27,480 Speaker 3: was doing it for a second time with another of 204 00:13:27,600 --> 00:13:31,280 Speaker 3: her calves who had also died. So it's very very tragic. 205 00:13:32,679 --> 00:13:35,600 Speaker 1: So this orca whale telikua would hold on to her 206 00:13:35,679 --> 00:13:38,840 Speaker 1: dead baby and continue to push her and keep her 207 00:13:38,880 --> 00:13:42,600 Speaker 1: from sinking for weeks. And this behavior of holding on 208 00:13:42,679 --> 00:13:46,520 Speaker 1: to their dead young happens in other species of animals. 209 00:13:47,040 --> 00:13:49,080 Speaker 3: It's a behavior that we see in a lot of 210 00:13:49,240 --> 00:13:54,000 Speaker 3: mammalian mothers, so mammal species in which there is a 211 00:13:54,040 --> 00:13:58,080 Speaker 3: prolonged period of maternal care. And what we see here 212 00:13:58,360 --> 00:14:02,400 Speaker 3: is that very often when the baby dies, the mother 213 00:14:03,160 --> 00:14:06,719 Speaker 3: seems to have a hard time accepting this reality and 214 00:14:06,840 --> 00:14:10,720 Speaker 3: holds onto the corpse for a prolonged period of time. 215 00:14:11,840 --> 00:14:15,360 Speaker 1: But wouldn't that tell you that maybe the animal doesn't 216 00:14:15,440 --> 00:14:18,959 Speaker 1: understand death or has the wrong understanding of what has 217 00:14:19,000 --> 00:14:20,000 Speaker 1: happened to their baby. 218 00:14:20,160 --> 00:14:25,320 Speaker 3: So some people have put forward this hypothesis. The most 219 00:14:25,320 --> 00:14:29,560 Speaker 3: important takeaway from this behavior is probably not so much 220 00:14:29,600 --> 00:14:32,160 Speaker 3: that they're understanding death, but the fact that they're really 221 00:14:32,280 --> 00:14:37,880 Speaker 3: grieving their baby's death. And this may be accompanied by 222 00:14:37,880 --> 00:14:40,200 Speaker 3: a concept of death, but it may also be part 223 00:14:40,200 --> 00:14:43,440 Speaker 3: of the process through which the animal learns about death 224 00:14:44,000 --> 00:14:47,160 Speaker 3: through holding onto this baby, maybe hoping that it will 225 00:14:47,200 --> 00:14:51,440 Speaker 3: revive and ultimately seeing that it doesn't and deciding to 226 00:14:51,560 --> 00:14:53,440 Speaker 3: let it go, which they eventually do. 227 00:14:54,160 --> 00:14:58,840 Speaker 1: Wow, that's fascinating. This behavior of mothers continuing to carry 228 00:14:58,880 --> 00:15:01,520 Speaker 1: their babies that have passed the way has been seen 229 00:15:01,600 --> 00:15:07,000 Speaker 1: in Wales, chimpanzees, dolphins, and even giraffes. And this is 230 00:15:07,040 --> 00:15:09,920 Speaker 1: where we touch on the concept of grief. According to 231 00:15:09,920 --> 00:15:12,720 Speaker 1: doctor Muntzel, grief is not the same thing as an 232 00:15:12,840 --> 00:15:17,080 Speaker 1: understanding of death, and in fact they're independent. You can 233 00:15:17,160 --> 00:15:21,040 Speaker 1: have grief without understanding death. For example, you can grieve 234 00:15:21,080 --> 00:15:24,040 Speaker 1: the loss of something that wasn't alive, like your house, 235 00:15:24,360 --> 00:15:26,760 Speaker 1: or you can grieve a breakup with someone you loved. 236 00:15:27,160 --> 00:15:30,680 Speaker 1: And you can understand death without grieving. For example, you 237 00:15:30,760 --> 00:15:34,000 Speaker 1: might be glad that someone you didn't like died. Okay, 238 00:15:34,240 --> 00:15:37,320 Speaker 1: the last example doctor Munsoll brought up involves not just 239 00:15:37,520 --> 00:15:40,000 Speaker 1: understanding death but faking it. 240 00:15:40,920 --> 00:15:44,920 Speaker 3: So one of my favorite examples here is the apossum, 241 00:15:45,160 --> 00:15:47,600 Speaker 3: which is in the title of my book and in 242 00:15:47,680 --> 00:15:50,240 Speaker 3: the cover as well. And the apossum is very interesting 243 00:15:50,320 --> 00:15:55,560 Speaker 3: because the apossum famously plays possum right. The apossum plays 244 00:15:55,680 --> 00:15:59,440 Speaker 3: dead when she feels threatened, and she does this in 245 00:15:59,480 --> 00:16:03,560 Speaker 3: a bare, very spectacular way. It's a very very complex 246 00:16:03,960 --> 00:16:08,440 Speaker 3: defense mechanism. The apossum will adopt the bodily and facial 247 00:16:08,480 --> 00:16:11,920 Speaker 3: expression of a corpse. Her body temperature is reduced, her 248 00:16:11,960 --> 00:16:15,320 Speaker 3: breathing and heart rate are reduced. She expels this putrid 249 00:16:15,400 --> 00:16:19,600 Speaker 3: smelling liquid from her glance. She stops responding to the 250 00:16:19,680 --> 00:16:22,160 Speaker 3: world very radically, so you can pick her up and 251 00:16:22,240 --> 00:16:23,640 Speaker 3: she just doesn't respond. 252 00:16:23,880 --> 00:16:26,760 Speaker 1: She plays dead. Basically, she pretends to be dead. 253 00:16:26,960 --> 00:16:30,480 Speaker 3: It's like putting on a corpse disguise. Even her tongue 254 00:16:30,560 --> 00:16:34,960 Speaker 3: turns blue. So it's very impressive, very very elaborate. 255 00:16:35,720 --> 00:16:38,880 Speaker 1: But does that mean that it understands death. 256 00:16:39,880 --> 00:16:43,400 Speaker 3: For the apossum? This is probably an automatic behavior. I 257 00:16:43,440 --> 00:16:47,640 Speaker 3: don't think the apossum understands that she's playing dead. It 258 00:16:47,640 --> 00:16:50,800 Speaker 3: doesn't necessarily tell us anything about the opossum's mind. But 259 00:16:51,240 --> 00:16:54,800 Speaker 3: if this behavior has evolved, there needs to have been 260 00:16:54,960 --> 00:16:58,360 Speaker 3: the predator's concept of death. This is only going to 261 00:16:58,480 --> 00:17:03,520 Speaker 3: work if it's actual convincing the predator, right, So this 262 00:17:03,640 --> 00:17:06,960 Speaker 3: behavior is showing us the predators understand death what they 263 00:17:07,040 --> 00:17:09,960 Speaker 3: take to be a convincing display of death. 264 00:17:11,000 --> 00:17:14,000 Speaker 1: Okay, this is pretty cool. What doctor Monceux is saying, 265 00:17:14,480 --> 00:17:17,680 Speaker 1: is that an opossum plane dead. Doesn't tell us anything 266 00:17:17,880 --> 00:17:20,840 Speaker 1: about whether the opossum understands death. It might just be 267 00:17:20,880 --> 00:17:24,280 Speaker 1: a reflex or an instinct for them. But it does 268 00:17:24,359 --> 00:17:27,800 Speaker 1: tell you that the predator understands death, or at least 269 00:17:27,960 --> 00:17:31,119 Speaker 1: that it reacts to the signs of something appearing to 270 00:17:31,160 --> 00:17:34,720 Speaker 1: be dead. The question is not how do you pretend 271 00:17:34,720 --> 00:17:37,480 Speaker 1: to be dead? The question is how do you convince 272 00:17:38,040 --> 00:17:40,120 Speaker 1: another animal that you are dead? 273 00:17:40,280 --> 00:17:44,280 Speaker 3: Exactly. It's like stick insects. They don't need to understand 274 00:17:44,320 --> 00:17:47,520 Speaker 3: that they look like sticks in order for their appearance 275 00:17:47,600 --> 00:17:52,120 Speaker 3: to be advantageous, but we know that their predators mistake 276 00:17:52,200 --> 00:17:55,000 Speaker 3: them for sticks and don't want to eat sticks. It's 277 00:17:55,000 --> 00:17:58,080 Speaker 3: telling us something about their predators' minds. Right. 278 00:17:58,520 --> 00:18:01,040 Speaker 1: So then in this case, it's example tells us that 279 00:18:01,160 --> 00:18:05,000 Speaker 1: there is some understanding of the state of being alive 280 00:18:05,040 --> 00:18:05,720 Speaker 1: and death. 281 00:18:05,720 --> 00:18:10,360 Speaker 3: That's right, and that they understand dead individuals to look 282 00:18:10,400 --> 00:18:14,160 Speaker 3: a certain way, feel a certain way, that they expect 283 00:18:14,320 --> 00:18:18,280 Speaker 3: different behaviors from dead individuals. It's very interesting. It really 284 00:18:18,320 --> 00:18:21,760 Speaker 3: gives us a window into the minds of these animals. 285 00:18:22,400 --> 00:18:26,160 Speaker 1: Okay, so lots of different animals from chimpanzees to whales, 286 00:18:26,320 --> 00:18:29,960 Speaker 1: to predators like wolves, and by extension, dogs and cats 287 00:18:30,320 --> 00:18:33,560 Speaker 1: seem to react to dead animals and they act different 288 00:18:33,840 --> 00:18:37,399 Speaker 1: because of it. But does that mean that they understand death? 289 00:18:37,880 --> 00:18:40,440 Speaker 1: Maybe in the same way that you or I understand 290 00:18:40,440 --> 00:18:43,680 Speaker 1: what it means to die. Now, the big danger here 291 00:18:43,840 --> 00:18:47,000 Speaker 1: is to see an animal doing something and then assume 292 00:18:47,200 --> 00:18:52,359 Speaker 1: that it has human emotions or intentions. This is called anthropomorphizing. 293 00:18:52,720 --> 00:18:54,760 Speaker 1: Here's how doctor Monceaux explains it. 294 00:18:55,560 --> 00:19:01,639 Speaker 3: Anthropomorphism is something that anyone who studies animals is really 295 00:19:01,800 --> 00:19:07,840 Speaker 3: afraid of, because humans have this tendency to anthropomorphize everything. 296 00:19:08,520 --> 00:19:12,280 Speaker 3: You know, even like our computer stops working and we're like, oh, 297 00:19:12,320 --> 00:19:14,680 Speaker 3: it doesn't want to work, or you know, we get 298 00:19:14,720 --> 00:19:17,879 Speaker 3: angry at our car if it breaks down. We attribute 299 00:19:18,080 --> 00:19:22,840 Speaker 3: intentions to inanimate objects all the time, and certainly we 300 00:19:22,880 --> 00:19:26,639 Speaker 3: do this all the time with our pets. We're constantly 301 00:19:26,640 --> 00:19:30,560 Speaker 3: interpreting their behavior in human ways. We send each other 302 00:19:31,080 --> 00:19:34,439 Speaker 3: videos of animals doing something and some funny music that 303 00:19:34,560 --> 00:19:37,760 Speaker 3: makes it look like they're dancing or whatever. So it's 304 00:19:37,840 --> 00:19:43,040 Speaker 3: understood that when you entropomorphize an animal, you are mistakingly 305 00:19:43,520 --> 00:19:47,919 Speaker 3: describing their behavior in human terms. So you're attributing to 306 00:19:47,960 --> 00:19:50,480 Speaker 3: them a human quality that they don't actually have. 307 00:19:51,280 --> 00:19:53,919 Speaker 1: So it'd be a mistake to see, for example, a 308 00:19:53,960 --> 00:19:56,959 Speaker 1: whale carrying their calf that's passed away. I think that 309 00:19:57,000 --> 00:20:00,359 Speaker 1: they're grieving just like a human mother would. Or to 310 00:20:00,400 --> 00:20:03,560 Speaker 1: see a chimpanzee carrest her friend who's about to pass away, 311 00:20:03,880 --> 00:20:06,560 Speaker 1: and think that they are being tender and caring, like 312 00:20:06,600 --> 00:20:09,360 Speaker 1: how we would treat someone close to us under deathbed. 313 00:20:09,720 --> 00:20:12,440 Speaker 1: At the same time, doctor Monteux says it could also 314 00:20:12,480 --> 00:20:15,360 Speaker 1: be a mistake to do the opposite. 315 00:20:15,760 --> 00:20:20,040 Speaker 3: I think that there's also the complimentary worry, which has 316 00:20:20,119 --> 00:20:23,480 Speaker 3: to do with the other side of the coin, what 317 00:20:23,640 --> 00:20:28,440 Speaker 3: Kristin Andrews and Brian Husk called anthropectomy, which consists of 318 00:20:28,760 --> 00:20:34,240 Speaker 3: mistakenly denying a human typical characteristic to an animal. So 319 00:20:34,320 --> 00:20:39,520 Speaker 3: if we say that an animal is grieving when she's not, 320 00:20:40,200 --> 00:20:44,360 Speaker 3: we would be anthropomorphizing the animal. But if we say no, 321 00:20:44,440 --> 00:20:48,320 Speaker 3: she can't be grieving because that's human exclusive when she 322 00:20:48,440 --> 00:20:53,000 Speaker 3: actually is grieving. These are both false descriptions of reality, 323 00:20:53,080 --> 00:20:55,760 Speaker 3: and there's no reason to fear one over the other. 324 00:20:55,960 --> 00:20:59,560 Speaker 3: So we have to be careful not to over attribute, 325 00:20:59,760 --> 00:21:02,600 Speaker 3: but also not to under attribute. We have to really 326 00:21:03,040 --> 00:21:06,560 Speaker 3: try to find the description that is true that actually 327 00:21:06,600 --> 00:21:09,080 Speaker 3: captures what the animal is like. 328 00:21:09,920 --> 00:21:12,240 Speaker 1: So how do we make sense of what we see 329 00:21:12,320 --> 00:21:15,760 Speaker 1: in the animal kingdom? How do we understand how animals 330 00:21:15,920 --> 00:21:19,080 Speaker 1: understand death? To answer this, we need to dig into 331 00:21:19,119 --> 00:21:22,840 Speaker 1: what it means to understand death. When we come back, 332 00:21:22,920 --> 00:21:25,359 Speaker 1: I'm going to ask our two experts this question, and 333 00:21:25,400 --> 00:21:28,560 Speaker 1: hopefully we'll put the whole mystery of whether animals understand 334 00:21:28,600 --> 00:21:32,080 Speaker 1: death to rest. Don't go anywhere. We'll be right back 335 00:21:32,240 --> 00:21:39,359 Speaker 1: with more science stuff and we're back. 336 00:21:40,600 --> 00:21:40,959 Speaker 3: Okay. 337 00:21:41,119 --> 00:21:45,520 Speaker 1: So, animals ranging from chimpanzees to elephants to whales seem 338 00:21:45,560 --> 00:21:49,439 Speaker 1: to react to animals dying in ways that seem almost human. 339 00:21:49,840 --> 00:21:52,640 Speaker 1: And we know that predators, which include cats and dogs, 340 00:21:52,880 --> 00:21:57,080 Speaker 1: seem to instinctively know the difference between something alive and dead. 341 00:21:57,560 --> 00:22:01,399 Speaker 1: But does that mean they understand death. To answer this question, 342 00:22:01,640 --> 00:22:05,399 Speaker 1: we need to define what it means to understand death. 343 00:22:06,080 --> 00:22:08,639 Speaker 1: None of us are born with an understanding of it. 344 00:22:08,640 --> 00:22:11,159 Speaker 1: It's something we gain as we grow up, and it 345 00:22:11,280 --> 00:22:15,520 Speaker 1: typically comes in stages. Here's that doctor Anderson describes it. 346 00:22:17,000 --> 00:22:22,880 Speaker 2: I think most thanatologists, those people who study death and buying, 347 00:22:23,240 --> 00:22:28,040 Speaker 2: particularly in humans, would I agree that we humans share 348 00:22:28,520 --> 00:22:34,639 Speaker 2: four basic aspects or components of our concept of death. 349 00:22:35,200 --> 00:22:40,280 Speaker 2: One is that its death is irreversible. Once something or 350 00:22:40,320 --> 00:22:45,160 Speaker 2: someone is dead, that's the aint coming back. The second 351 00:22:45,160 --> 00:22:50,920 Speaker 2: one is probably the notion that a dead individual is 352 00:22:51,119 --> 00:22:57,840 Speaker 2: completely non functional. They can't perceive anything, there's no mental activity, 353 00:22:58,040 --> 00:23:03,240 Speaker 2: there's no emotions, there's no or agency. They're completely in 354 00:23:03,359 --> 00:23:06,680 Speaker 2: theer lumps of meat, if you like. 355 00:23:07,880 --> 00:23:11,600 Speaker 1: So an understanding of death, most scientists agree, is like 356 00:23:11,640 --> 00:23:15,120 Speaker 1: a table that stands on four legs. The first leg 357 00:23:15,440 --> 00:23:19,240 Speaker 1: is non functionality, basically that a body can't move or 358 00:23:19,280 --> 00:23:24,240 Speaker 1: do anything once it's passed away. The second leg is irreversibility, 359 00:23:24,480 --> 00:23:27,280 Speaker 1: the idea that once it happens, there's no going back. 360 00:23:27,760 --> 00:23:31,000 Speaker 1: The third and fourth legs are a little more subtle. 361 00:23:31,720 --> 00:23:34,959 Speaker 2: The third one is this notion of what many people 362 00:23:35,000 --> 00:23:39,560 Speaker 2: refer to as universality, and related to that, some people 363 00:23:39,600 --> 00:23:44,680 Speaker 2: refer to it as inevitability, the idea that everyone, every 364 00:23:44,720 --> 00:23:50,800 Speaker 2: living thing will eventually meet its demise and cease to exist. 365 00:23:51,160 --> 00:23:55,200 Speaker 2: And the final one is causality, that we know basically 366 00:23:55,520 --> 00:23:56,880 Speaker 2: what causes death. 367 00:23:57,760 --> 00:24:00,880 Speaker 1: So those are the four legs of a four understanding 368 00:24:00,960 --> 00:24:04,920 Speaker 1: of death. The third leg is universality, the idea that 369 00:24:05,000 --> 00:24:08,720 Speaker 1: all living things will inevitably die, and the fourth leg 370 00:24:08,960 --> 00:24:12,879 Speaker 1: is causality, meaning having an understanding of what causes an 371 00:24:12,960 --> 00:24:17,080 Speaker 1: individual to die. Now, most mature humans have a grasp 372 00:24:17,119 --> 00:24:19,600 Speaker 1: of all four ideas, and so we can say that 373 00:24:19,680 --> 00:24:22,560 Speaker 1: we have a full understanding of the concept of death. 374 00:24:22,800 --> 00:24:24,840 Speaker 1: But if you think back to when you were a kid, 375 00:24:25,240 --> 00:24:27,480 Speaker 1: you might remember that you didn't know all of these 376 00:24:27,520 --> 00:24:30,520 Speaker 1: things all at once. You might have learned these in 377 00:24:30,560 --> 00:24:34,840 Speaker 1: a sequence, or maybe you partially learned them at different times, 378 00:24:34,840 --> 00:24:38,879 Speaker 1: depending on your life experience or who you talk to. Okay, 379 00:24:39,119 --> 00:24:41,560 Speaker 1: now that we've said what it means to understand death, 380 00:24:41,880 --> 00:24:44,880 Speaker 1: let's see what our experts say about whether animals can 381 00:24:45,000 --> 00:24:46,480 Speaker 1: have this understanding. 382 00:24:47,600 --> 00:24:52,320 Speaker 2: Okay, if we go back to those four components, irreversibility, 383 00:24:52,880 --> 00:24:58,400 Speaker 2: non functionality, the universality of death, and the causality what 384 00:24:58,480 --> 00:25:02,960 Speaker 2: causes death. I think what we know about how chimpanzees 385 00:25:03,040 --> 00:25:08,360 Speaker 2: respond to dead individuals. For me, it takes the box 386 00:25:09,040 --> 00:25:15,800 Speaker 2: for understanding the irreversibility of death. A dead individual is 387 00:25:15,880 --> 00:25:19,320 Speaker 2: not going to come back to life. When you see 388 00:25:19,520 --> 00:25:24,639 Speaker 2: a group of chimpanzees reactions to a dead juvenile, or 389 00:25:24,720 --> 00:25:28,840 Speaker 2: a dead adult. Then you'll see that they really behave 390 00:25:29,160 --> 00:25:32,600 Speaker 2: towards the corpse in which that they would never do 391 00:25:33,040 --> 00:25:36,600 Speaker 2: to that individual when it was alive. And I think 392 00:25:36,680 --> 00:25:40,800 Speaker 2: they're learning that we can do anything with this chimpanzee. 393 00:25:41,119 --> 00:25:44,920 Speaker 2: This chimpanzee is not going to react. It doesn't feel anything. 394 00:25:45,240 --> 00:25:48,320 Speaker 2: We can pound on its dest we can jump up 395 00:25:48,359 --> 00:25:51,639 Speaker 2: and down on it. It's never going to move. So 396 00:25:51,720 --> 00:25:57,560 Speaker 2: that takes also the non functionality component. So we've got 397 00:25:57,640 --> 00:26:04,840 Speaker 2: the understand the reversibility. They understand nonfunctionality. I think about causality. 398 00:26:05,280 --> 00:26:10,000 Speaker 2: I think chimpanzees have some understanding about what causes death. 399 00:26:10,400 --> 00:26:13,280 Speaker 2: If they see a chimpanzee falling from a great height 400 00:26:13,720 --> 00:26:17,240 Speaker 2: and it's no longer moving, if you see a chimpanzee 401 00:26:17,280 --> 00:26:20,920 Speaker 2: that's just being attacked by a leopard, then I think 402 00:26:21,040 --> 00:26:24,720 Speaker 2: we understand that is the cause of death, that these 403 00:26:24,800 --> 00:26:29,280 Speaker 2: ruins are fatal. So I think they've got some understanding 404 00:26:29,320 --> 00:26:33,720 Speaker 2: of causality, not to the extent that we understand the 405 00:26:33,920 --> 00:26:39,240 Speaker 2: biological causes of lack of oxygen or loss of blood, 406 00:26:39,480 --> 00:26:45,199 Speaker 2: but nonetheless they have some understanding of external causes. But 407 00:26:45,320 --> 00:26:49,560 Speaker 2: it takes me to the fourth component universality. For me, 408 00:26:49,800 --> 00:26:54,639 Speaker 2: universality means that you realize that everyone is going to die. 409 00:26:54,840 --> 00:26:58,959 Speaker 2: That means other individuals or that they're capable of dying. 410 00:26:59,160 --> 00:27:01,719 Speaker 2: I think chimpanzees have that ability. 411 00:27:02,960 --> 00:27:07,880 Speaker 1: So doctor Anderson thinks chimpanzees are capable of grasping most 412 00:27:07,880 --> 00:27:11,240 Speaker 1: of the components of an understanding of death. They can 413 00:27:11,400 --> 00:27:16,600 Speaker 1: understand nonfunctionality, irreversibility, some sense of causality, and most of 414 00:27:16,640 --> 00:27:19,600 Speaker 1: the idea of universality. We'll come back to that in 415 00:27:19,640 --> 00:27:22,760 Speaker 1: a minute. Then I asked doctor Monceiua this question about 416 00:27:22,840 --> 00:27:26,920 Speaker 1: other animals like elephants, whales, cats, and dogs, and this 417 00:27:27,080 --> 00:27:29,560 Speaker 1: is what she said, Well, what do all of those 418 00:27:29,600 --> 00:27:32,520 Speaker 1: examples you've talked about in the animal kingdom? What do 419 00:27:32,640 --> 00:27:36,680 Speaker 1: they tell us about whether animals understand death. 420 00:27:37,200 --> 00:27:40,600 Speaker 3: Of course, it's still very early and we're still only 421 00:27:40,800 --> 00:27:44,639 Speaker 3: starting to think about these questions. But I think that 422 00:27:45,000 --> 00:27:48,120 Speaker 3: the concept of death it really boils down to the 423 00:27:48,160 --> 00:27:51,919 Speaker 3: idea of understanding that individuals don't do the things that 424 00:27:52,040 --> 00:27:54,280 Speaker 3: living individuals of their kind do, and that this is 425 00:27:54,280 --> 00:27:57,919 Speaker 3: an irreversible state. I think that's what understanding death at 426 00:27:57,960 --> 00:28:02,359 Speaker 3: its core is, and that's actually quite easy to reach 427 00:28:02,520 --> 00:28:06,840 Speaker 3: because it's just not very complicated to understand. It's about 428 00:28:07,040 --> 00:28:10,760 Speaker 3: having certain expectations about how living beings around you behave 429 00:28:11,119 --> 00:28:15,600 Speaker 3: learning due to your past experiences that once death has happened, 430 00:28:15,720 --> 00:28:18,680 Speaker 3: you can no longer expect these behaviors from the animal. 431 00:28:18,800 --> 00:28:22,000 Speaker 3: And I think also that there are many different contexts 432 00:28:22,000 --> 00:28:25,199 Speaker 3: where animals are going to be able to acquire the 433 00:28:25,280 --> 00:28:28,040 Speaker 3: necessary experiences to learn about this. 434 00:28:29,200 --> 00:28:32,160 Speaker 1: In other words, doctor Monceaux thinks that if you define 435 00:28:32,200 --> 00:28:35,760 Speaker 1: an understanding of death as only needing two of the 436 00:28:35,840 --> 00:28:40,080 Speaker 1: legs we talked about before, non functionality and irreversibility, then 437 00:28:40,080 --> 00:28:44,240 Speaker 1: we can say that lots of animals understand death because 438 00:28:44,440 --> 00:28:48,120 Speaker 1: those two ideas are not that complicated or hard to 439 00:28:48,200 --> 00:28:51,880 Speaker 1: learn and understand. Meaning even your dog can figure out 440 00:28:51,920 --> 00:28:54,680 Speaker 1: that a dead and smelly red is not moving and 441 00:28:54,760 --> 00:28:57,280 Speaker 1: that it's not going to move again. Of course, you 442 00:28:57,360 --> 00:29:00,520 Speaker 1: might think, well, the dog doesn't understand the other two 443 00:29:00,640 --> 00:29:05,600 Speaker 1: ideas or legs, universality and causality. Doesn't that mean it 444 00:29:05,640 --> 00:29:09,560 Speaker 1: doesn't really understand death. Well, that's only if you think 445 00:29:09,720 --> 00:29:12,680 Speaker 1: that the human way of understanding death is the only 446 00:29:12,720 --> 00:29:14,280 Speaker 1: way to understand death. 447 00:29:15,680 --> 00:29:20,080 Speaker 3: We can find this idea in many texts in comparative penatology, 448 00:29:20,520 --> 00:29:25,280 Speaker 3: where researchers are saying, you know, animals cannot understand infinity, 449 00:29:25,760 --> 00:29:28,640 Speaker 3: or they don't have a concept of time, or they 450 00:29:28,640 --> 00:29:31,160 Speaker 3: don't have a concept of absence, and therefore they can't 451 00:29:31,240 --> 00:29:34,400 Speaker 3: understand death. So in a way, they're all over intellectualizing 452 00:29:34,440 --> 00:29:36,960 Speaker 3: the concept of death. And what I do in my 453 00:29:37,000 --> 00:29:39,360 Speaker 3: book is I turned that question into the question of 454 00:29:39,680 --> 00:29:42,560 Speaker 3: do they have anything that counts as a concept of death, 455 00:29:42,600 --> 00:29:44,440 Speaker 3: even if it's different from our own. 456 00:29:45,520 --> 00:29:51,400 Speaker 1: Do animals understand death? The answer is yes, depending on 457 00:29:51,440 --> 00:29:55,760 Speaker 1: what you mean by understanding death. If it means understanding 458 00:29:55,800 --> 00:29:58,360 Speaker 1: it at a basic level, that it means you can't 459 00:29:58,520 --> 00:30:01,960 Speaker 1: move once you're dead, and that it's irreversible, then lots 460 00:30:01,960 --> 00:30:04,600 Speaker 1: of animals seem to understand death. But if you mean 461 00:30:04,800 --> 00:30:08,960 Speaker 1: understanding more complex concepts like the medical causes of death 462 00:30:09,120 --> 00:30:12,280 Speaker 1: or the idea that all creatures will eventually die, then 463 00:30:12,320 --> 00:30:16,080 Speaker 1: it's probably not possible for most animals to understand death 464 00:30:16,360 --> 00:30:19,959 Speaker 1: at the same level as humans. Now, as a last question, 465 00:30:20,280 --> 00:30:22,960 Speaker 1: I asked our experts what all of this tells us 466 00:30:23,040 --> 00:30:26,760 Speaker 1: about how humans are different from most animals, and they 467 00:30:26,800 --> 00:30:30,480 Speaker 1: both agree there is one thing that seems unique to us, 468 00:30:31,000 --> 00:30:34,880 Speaker 1: and that is an ability to understand the inevitability of 469 00:30:34,920 --> 00:30:37,120 Speaker 1: our own mortality. 470 00:30:37,600 --> 00:30:40,840 Speaker 2: Where I think the line might be drawing. I'm not 471 00:30:41,040 --> 00:30:47,920 Speaker 2: sure that chimpanzees are capable of understanding their own mortality. 472 00:30:48,440 --> 00:30:53,880 Speaker 2: They don't fall into the kind of feeling of entrapment 473 00:30:54,400 --> 00:30:57,840 Speaker 2: and despair that humans sometimes do. 474 00:30:58,520 --> 00:31:00,760 Speaker 3: You know, if an animal is don't about death, she 475 00:31:00,840 --> 00:31:03,920 Speaker 3: has a very limited number of experiences, and she's not 476 00:31:03,960 --> 00:31:06,000 Speaker 3: going to be able to reach on her own the 477 00:31:06,080 --> 00:31:11,560 Speaker 3: understanding that everyone dies, whereas humans, you know, we understand 478 00:31:11,560 --> 00:31:14,400 Speaker 3: that our death is inevitable because we've been told. 479 00:31:14,640 --> 00:31:18,280 Speaker 1: We have language for it, whereas an animal maybe doesn't 480 00:31:18,280 --> 00:31:22,520 Speaker 1: have language for it. That's right, Doctor Anderson doesn't think 481 00:31:22,600 --> 00:31:26,800 Speaker 1: chimpanzees have the forethought to really imagine a world in 482 00:31:26,840 --> 00:31:30,720 Speaker 1: which they don't themselves exist, and doctor Mossela thinks you 483 00:31:30,800 --> 00:31:35,280 Speaker 1: need language to really grasp the concept of inevitability, which 484 00:31:35,320 --> 00:31:39,480 Speaker 1: means respecial because we're able to appreciate the fact that, 485 00:31:39,840 --> 00:31:44,320 Speaker 1: at least temporarily we are not dead. Okay, I lied. 486 00:31:44,720 --> 00:31:47,520 Speaker 1: I did ask our experts one more question, and that 487 00:31:47,680 --> 00:31:51,000 Speaker 1: is whether thinking about how animals deal with death had 488 00:31:51,120 --> 00:31:55,160 Speaker 1: changed their own perspectives on the topic. Here's what they said, 489 00:31:56,240 --> 00:32:00,880 Speaker 1: I'm not really sure that it has changed on view 490 00:32:01,280 --> 00:32:05,600 Speaker 1: in general. I've had enough experience of death of people 491 00:32:05,680 --> 00:32:11,000 Speaker 1: that I've known uncherished to accept that it's inevitable. I 492 00:32:11,160 --> 00:32:15,400 Speaker 1: don't share it, and I hope that when it does come, 493 00:32:15,720 --> 00:32:17,720 Speaker 1: I hopefully accept. 494 00:32:18,600 --> 00:32:22,000 Speaker 3: So I think that studying it in animals has been 495 00:32:22,200 --> 00:32:30,600 Speaker 3: very illuminating and somehow comforting, because, strangely enough, when you 496 00:32:30,680 --> 00:32:34,440 Speaker 3: read enough about death and other species, you come to 497 00:32:34,520 --> 00:32:39,120 Speaker 3: realize that it's a reality you just cannot escape. It's 498 00:32:39,160 --> 00:32:42,840 Speaker 3: a deal that every single living being steps into. There's 499 00:32:42,920 --> 00:32:44,720 Speaker 3: no other choice. If you want to be alive, then 500 00:32:44,800 --> 00:32:45,440 Speaker 3: you have to die. 501 00:32:46,960 --> 00:32:52,600 Speaker 1: In other words, it's understanding death that makes us appreciate life, 502 00:32:53,240 --> 00:32:58,240 Speaker 1: and that seems to be lately human. Thanks for listening. 503 00:32:59,040 --> 00:33:03,320 Speaker 1: See you next time you've been listening to science Stuff. 504 00:33:03,440 --> 00:33:06,880 Speaker 1: The production of iHeartRadio written and produced by me or 505 00:33:06,960 --> 00:33:11,440 Speaker 1: Hey Cham, edited by Rose Seguda, executive producer Jerry Rowland, 506 00:33:11,440 --> 00:33:14,440 Speaker 1: and audio engineer and mixer Kasey Pegram And you can 507 00:33:14,440 --> 00:33:17,680 Speaker 1: follow me on social media. Just search for PhD comics 508 00:33:17,760 --> 00:33:20,040 Speaker 1: and the name of your favorite platform. 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