Speaker 1: Hey there, folks. It is Tuesday, October fourteenth. Tonight, two
Speaker 1: inmates have been executed, making the thirty sixth and thirty
Speaker 1: seventh to be executed in the United States this year,
Speaker 1: and one of them maintained his innocence till the end.
Speaker 1: Welcome to this episode of Amy and TJ where we rogues.
Speaker 1: We've been covering this for several weeks, you could say
Speaker 1: months now, where the United States seems to be on
Speaker 1: a bit of a tear, you could argue, but an
Speaker 1: uptick in the number of executions. Six were scheduled over
Speaker 1: an eight day stretch, two of them tonight.
Speaker 2: That's pretty remarkable. And this has been a record setting
Speaker 2: year for Florida. I believe previously the largest number of
Speaker 2: executions in one year was eight. We're already up to
Speaker 2: number fourteen with more scheduled.
Speaker 3: That is remarkable.
Speaker 1: We're used to Texas, I guess, leading the way. You
Speaker 1: don't even have to look at statistics, and folks just
Speaker 1: understand that Texas usually leads the way, but Florida is
Speaker 1: way out ahead this year. Now, what happened tonight There
Speaker 1: was one execution in Missouri, another one was in Florida.
Speaker 1: I'll start just the latest on Lance Shockley. He is
Speaker 1: the one convicted killer out of Missouri, convicted of murdering
Speaker 1: a state trooper. He was denied clemency by the governor
Speaker 1: on Monday. Courts have turned down all of his pleas
Speaker 1: to have new evidence. We'll get into that in a second.
Speaker 1: But he was turned down at every turn, and then
Speaker 1: finally the execution was at six o'clock local time at
Speaker 1: a correctional facility in Bonetaire, Missouri.
Speaker 2: That's right, And it was on Monday that the Missouri
Speaker 2: governor announced his decision to reject Shockley's plea to stay
Speaker 2: the execution because he was trying to buy some time
Speaker 2: or his lawyers were saying that they wanted DNA testing
Speaker 2: to take place on I believe six key pieces of evidence.
Speaker 2: It wasn't available at the time of his trial, and
Speaker 2: so they wanted to be able to wait and see.
Speaker 2: They had a plea in a lower coat court or
Speaker 2: a file and a lower coat court that they were
Speaker 2: waiting a ruling on. They wanted to stay the execution
Speaker 2: to be able to see if they could do some
Speaker 2: DNA testing to potentially exonerate their client. That, of course
Speaker 2: was denied, and so the execution went forward as planned.
Speaker 1: Well. The other one that took Blake tonight was down
Speaker 1: in Florida. Samuel L excuse me, Samuel Lee Smithers. Samuel
Speaker 1: Lee Smithers is the name seventy two year old man
Speaker 1: convicted of killing two young women. Although his appeals rejected
Speaker 1: as well as attorneys had tried to make an argument
Speaker 1: that this was cruel and unusual even to be executing
Speaker 1: a seventy two year old man. But all those appeals failed.
Speaker 1: He was executed six o'clock eastern tonight at a correctional
Speaker 1: facility near Stark, Florida. So these two cases we did
Speaker 1: get some details. I should mention at least about Smithers
Speaker 1: of what his day looked like. Said he got up
Speaker 1: at six thirty this morning. The correctional facility reported that
Speaker 1: he was He remained a compliant inmate throughout the day,
Speaker 1: but he had no visitors today, no family, no nothing.
Speaker 1: Also no spiritual advisor. They came by, but we got
Speaker 1: word at least what his final meal. This is a
Speaker 1: I don't know if there's some just morbid curiosity here,
Speaker 1: but it's always fascinating to hear with folks order for
Speaker 1: their last metal.
Speaker 3: I was just going to say the same thing.
Speaker 2: I don't know why we always care, but we always
Speaker 2: report on it, and for whatever reason, I'm always interested
Speaker 2: in hearing what it was. But Smither's last meal was
Speaker 2: fried chicken, fried fish, along with apple pie and ice cream,
Speaker 2: and so he kept it simple. But yeah, spent the
Speaker 2: day alone by himself on what.
Speaker 1: Was turned out to be his final day here on
Speaker 1: October fourteenth. Now, these two executions tonight, there's actually another
Speaker 1: one scheduled tomorrow, I believe in Mississippi, and then there's
Speaker 1: one on Friday in Arizona. So two more to go
Speaker 1: this week. Want to go back to SHACKLEI Shockley is
Speaker 1: the one who rose maintained his innocence throughout the details
Speaker 1: though this two thousand and five crime he's not just
Speaker 1: accused of, but he's been convicted of. Some of these
Speaker 1: details are pretty heinous, that's right.
Speaker 2: So a jury, by the way, did unanimously convict Shockley
Speaker 2: for the death of Missouri State Highway Patrol Sergeant Carl Graham.
Speaker 2: And the jury convicted Shockley of actually stalking this sergeant,
Speaker 2: actually waiting for him at his home for hours for
Speaker 2: him to show up. And they say the motive behind
Speaker 2: his decision to murder this state trooper was that he
Speaker 2: was investigating he was investigating a case of manslaughter.
Speaker 3: So he was investigating.
Speaker 2: Shockli for manslaughter and in order, according to the evidence
Speaker 2: presented at trial, he was he killed the state trooper
Speaker 2: to try and basically stop the investigation into manslaughter.
Speaker 1: Yeah, but the way they say he went about this,
Speaker 1: at least these details. He was at the house waiting
Speaker 1: for hours at this man's house. This wasn't some spur
Speaker 1: of the moment thing as far as these details that
Speaker 1: came out or a fit of rage. They say he stalked,
Speaker 1: He sat there for hours waiting on him to come home,
Speaker 1: and when he got out of his vehicle, shot him
Speaker 1: in the back. The guy's down, he goes and shoots
Speaker 1: him in the head. Now, these are the details that
Speaker 1: came out, and this is the guy who claims he's innocent.
Speaker 1: And you could see given the details really of this crime,
Speaker 1: and when it's involving a state trooper, who's involving a
Speaker 1: law enforcement officer, a governor is not going to you
Speaker 1: better be damn sure with your evidence or there's not
Speaker 1: going to be a lot of tolerance for that.
Speaker 2: His attorneys say, however, that the prosecution's timeline didn't work out,
Speaker 2: that there was no actual forensic evidence tying Shockly to
Speaker 2: the case. There was no eye witness accounts tying him
Speaker 2: to the case. However, some of the details in court
Speaker 2: were the vehicle he driving, I believe he had borrowed
Speaker 2: his grandmother's vehicle.
Speaker 3: Some of the shell casings, they say, matched at his.
Speaker 2: Uncle's house, So there was some actual physical evidence tying
Speaker 2: him to the crime. But his attorneys again were asking
Speaker 2: for some DNA testing to take place, just trying to
Speaker 2: at least have some sort of time or some window
Speaker 2: of time to try and get that evidence or at
Speaker 2: least that evidence looked at.
Speaker 1: And they yes, you could argue, of course you should.
Speaker 1: You want to be sure. They were throwing everything at
Speaker 1: the wall, see if anything would stick here at this
Speaker 1: kind of late hour. Look, we covered another case recently
Speaker 1: where there was a lot of doubt and a lot
Speaker 1: of people were pleading to spare a man's life for
Speaker 1: different reasons. And the other cases even down in Texas.
Speaker 1: Robertson right, there's a stay of execution there because of evidence,
Speaker 1: and there's right people making an argument for innocence. This
Speaker 1: isn't one of.
Speaker 2: Those cases that has not been anything. They just want
Speaker 2: an opportunity to try and look at some new possible evidence.
Speaker 2: But yet there was nothing that was significant in any way,
Speaker 2: shape or form.
Speaker 3: Something that was interesting though about this case.
Speaker 2: Even though the jury unanimously convicted Shockley in the murder
Speaker 2: in Graham's murder, they were not unanimous in their decision
Speaker 2: to sentence him to death, So they were actually split
Speaker 2: between life in prison or the death penalty. And this
Speaker 2: is when the judge stepped in and made the decision
Speaker 2: and sentenced him to death. And you asked, actually, wait,
Speaker 2: there aren't many states where that's actually legal, And you're right.
Speaker 2: Just two states, the state of Missouri and the state
Speaker 2: of Indiana, are the only two states in this country
Speaker 2: where a judge can impose a death sentence when the
Speaker 2: jury is split on the decision.
Speaker 3: I didn't know that was even possible at all.
Speaker 1: And Shockley just happened to be in one of those
Speaker 1: states where a judge is allowed to do that, and
Speaker 1: a judge did in fact do so. Also, the back
Speaker 1: down to Florida smithers the crime down there. This is
Speaker 1: pretty horrific. A double murder or what were the ages
Speaker 1: of these young women? I came around, I'm I'm sorry
Speaker 1: where I didn't mean to put you on the spot there,
Speaker 1: but young women that this guy brutally murdered and dumped
Speaker 1: their bodies, almost discarded them like trash in a pond
Speaker 1: down in Florida. Now, this is not a case where
Speaker 1: he's hooting and hollering about innocence necessarily in this one.
Speaker 1: But this was a case I guess goes back to
Speaker 1: nineteen ninety five ninety six.
Speaker 2: So this was actually really disturbing when you start to
Speaker 2: read what reportedly took place in what he was convicted of,
Speaker 2: but that the property owner where he was staying actually
Speaker 2: found him cleaning up a bloodied axe, and he said
Speaker 2: that there had been some animals in the area, but
Speaker 2: she certainly was very suspicious. And when police came to investigate,
Speaker 2: that's when they found drag marks where he had dragged
Speaker 2: the bodies of these two young girls and left that.
Speaker 2: He said that they said that they were beaten, strangled
Speaker 2: and left in the pond to die. So that is
Speaker 2: just a horrific, horrific scene, but a double homicide. And
Speaker 2: when you look and you hear just the details of
Speaker 2: this crime, it is fairly sickening, to say the very least.
Speaker 1: And again they tried all options here as well. They
Speaker 1: tried as much as they could and tried every option
Speaker 1: they had, but exhausted all appeals. So again Smithers also
Speaker 1: executed for his crimes. Now, we said this is a
Speaker 1: thirty six and thirty seventh executions in the country so
Speaker 1: far this year. That is the most we've seen in
Speaker 1: this country since twenty fourteen, I believe. Now that sounds
Speaker 1: like a lot roam, But historically you go back to
Speaker 1: nineties and around that time we're regularly doing forty fifty
Speaker 1: sixty one. You even had ninety eight resecutions I think
Speaker 1: in nineteen ninety nine. So it seems like this is
Speaker 1: an uptick here in recent years. But I guess historically speaking,
Speaker 1: we're not necessarily knocking on the door some of those
Speaker 1: bigger numbers.
Speaker 3: We're going back to where we used to be. And
Speaker 3: maybe it seems like making up for lost time.
Speaker 1: Oh wow, And there might be something to that, folks. Yes,
Speaker 1: this isn't just an accident or fluke thing that's happening
Speaker 1: right now. There are reasons why there has been an
Speaker 1: uptick in the number of executions this year. We will
Speaker 1: explain why when we come back, and yes, it has
Speaker 1: something to do with Trump putting his signature on a
Speaker 1: proclamation or right, folks, welcome back. We continue now on
Speaker 1: this evening of October fourteenth, in which two more inmates
Speaker 1: Death row inmates were executed this evening, one in Missouri,
Speaker 1: one in Florida. The one in Florida a twice a
Speaker 1: double convicted murderer, the other convicted of killing law enforcement
Speaker 1: officer in the state of Missouri. Now Roles, it seemed
Speaker 1: like we have been doing an awful lot of stories
Speaker 1: lately about executions, and yes, there have been more this
Speaker 1: year than in previous years. Six were scheduled in an
Speaker 1: eight day stretch here in the US, or kind of
Speaker 1: right in the middle of that six scheduled. One of them,
Speaker 1: at least we know there was a stay. The one in.
Speaker 3: Texas, Texas Robert Robertson.
Speaker 2: So he had been convicted all those years ago for
Speaker 2: the murder of his two year old daughter, Nikki with
Speaker 2: shaken baby syndrome science which is now considered junk science.
Speaker 2: There have been dozens of exonerations now that we know
Speaker 2: more about how infants can die in ways other than
Speaker 2: and that could mimic abuse, and so yes, because of
Speaker 2: those factors, he has finally received after several efforts over
Speaker 2: the last ten years by his lawyers, he has received
Speaker 2: a stay of execution so that he can present new
Speaker 2: evidence in his.
Speaker 3: Case and we'll see where it goes from there. But
Speaker 3: he was supposed to be executed.
Speaker 1: It's on the sixteenth, in two days, yes, so that
Speaker 1: would have been wow. We would have had executions Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday,
Speaker 1: Friday of this week in the United States. So yes,
Speaker 1: there's one scheduled four tomorrow on Wednesday night, right, and
Speaker 1: then another scheduled on Friday in Arizona. But the numbers
Speaker 1: we're talking about, you go back to twenty fourteen, there
Speaker 1: were thirty five executions in the country, but after that,
Speaker 1: leading up to this year twenty fifteen, there were twenty eight.
Speaker 1: Then after that twenty twenty three, twenty five, twenty two, seventeen, eleven, eighteen,
Speaker 1: those were pandemic years, so those were down then, and
Speaker 1: then twenty four executions, then twenty five last year, and
Speaker 1: now here we are at thirty five. And what is
Speaker 1: the number. I think somewhere around ten are still scheduled,
Speaker 1: maybe eight or nine still scheduled for the rest correct
Speaker 1: of this year, so that number is going to go up.
Speaker 1: So why is it happening? I mean, part of this is,
Speaker 1: I don't want to say a backlog, but there was
Speaker 1: a stretch in which there was a difficult time in
Speaker 1: some of these states and getting the drugs they needed
Speaker 1: correct to actually carry out execution, and there.
Speaker 2: Were a lot of concerns about cruel and unusual punishment.
Speaker 2: There were reports of seeing people physically appear to be
Speaker 2: or sound as if they were in pain while they
Speaker 2: were being administered these lethal injections, so much so that
Speaker 2: a lot of prisoners, upon hearing reports of that on
Speaker 2: death row switched. Many times they can choose how they
Speaker 2: want to die, they were choosing, and they have chosen
Speaker 2: things like a firing squad or nitrogen gas because they're
Speaker 2: so afraid of or concerned about the reports surrounding lethal injections.
Speaker 1: And then then we get reports of one of the
Speaker 1: firing squad things not working exactly right, they missed the
Speaker 1: target correct, and then something with the nitrogen the gas
Speaker 1: that was I don't know what was the report, and
Speaker 1: so something about that one as well. There's always something.
Speaker 2: There's always something, and there is human error. I mean,
Speaker 2: Florida now is putting out exactly how it's carrying out
Speaker 2: its lethal injection. They say they have a three drug
Speaker 2: injection protocol. They use a set, a paralytic, and then
Speaker 2: the drug that stops the heart.
Speaker 3: That's according to the Department of Corrections.
Speaker 2: But they're trying to be transparent about how they go
Speaker 2: about of the order in which they use the drugs. Certainly,
Speaker 2: I witnessed an execution. I was twenty three, so what
Speaker 2: was that almost thirty years ago in South Carolina? And
Speaker 2: the man I saw die certainly appeared to be extremely uncomfortable,
Speaker 2: to the point where it was very difficult to witness
Speaker 2: and watch. So that was right around the time of
Speaker 2: those reports. And so yeah, we saw some states put
Speaker 2: a moratorium, some states just try to figure out what
Speaker 2: the correct drug protocol is. And then yet people couldn't
Speaker 2: get their hands actual states couldn't get their hands on
Speaker 2: the correct to drugs because certain drug companies were stopping
Speaker 2: disseminating them in protests.
Speaker 1: You pointed out just now you brought up a fascinating
Speaker 1: contradiction in a country where we have the death penalty,
Speaker 1: but we want to kill you as comfortably as possible,
Speaker 1: like we constitutionally we can kill you, but it's we
Speaker 1: violated a constitute rights if you are uncomfortable when we do.
Speaker 1: So what a country. I mean, that's just fascinating to think.
Speaker 1: I didn't think about it the way you put it.
Speaker 1: We're fighting and fighting and fighting to make sure we
Speaker 1: kill people.
Speaker 2: But we mainly yeah, yes, without pain. I don't know
Speaker 2: if it's possible though, I mean, that's the thing. I
Speaker 2: do believe there is an attempt to do that, Yeah,
Speaker 2: and to do so, but it still seems like it's
Speaker 2: an extremely difficult thing to accomplish.
Speaker 1: So yes, So that has helped, I guess contribute to
Speaker 1: I guess a bit of an uptick the other thing. Yes,
Speaker 1: several states are kind of driving this, and I think
Speaker 1: everybody knows them pretty much. Four states of the thirty
Speaker 1: five executions. If people are listening right now, which four
Speaker 1: states do you think you could probably name them before
Speaker 1: we even answer the question.
Speaker 2: I think that three of them are very obvious. The
Speaker 2: last one might be a little bit. You could go
Speaker 2: between a few different states. CA. So I would have
Speaker 2: known South Carolina just because I reported and lived there,
Speaker 2: and that's where I witness my execution. They were known
Speaker 2: to be very tough on the death penalty. So yes,
Speaker 2: I think everyone would say Texas and Florida, South Carolina.
Speaker 3: I wouldn't have necessarily gone with Alabama.
Speaker 2: I would have thought it could have been Georgia, Louisiana,
Speaker 2: another Southern state, but I wouldn't have known Alabama.
Speaker 1: That map is fascinating. They have those maps of where
Speaker 1: the death penalty and it is happening. All the southern
Speaker 1: states are lit up in northeast, nothing like what is
Speaker 1: it in only twenty I'm not gonna get my numbers right,
Speaker 1: but it's twenty seven and twenty three.
Speaker 2: Twenty seven states have the death penalty, twenty three states
Speaker 2: do not. Yes, so we're I mean, that's a pretty
Speaker 2: big divide.
Speaker 1: And even in some of the states that do have
Speaker 1: the death penalty, some of the governors sometimes put a
Speaker 1: moratorium on it and it's not being used even though
Speaker 1: it's on the books. But yeah, the other thing that contributed,
Speaker 1: I'd be honest with you, I don't remember. He had
Speaker 1: so many executive orders it was hard to keep her
Speaker 1: the president, but this was one he signed, right after
Speaker 1: getting into office. And I guess the title explains it.
Speaker 2: Yes, signed January twentieth, twenty twenty five, that would be
Speaker 2: the day he was born into office. It's called restoring
Speaker 2: the death penalty and protecting public safety.
Speaker 1: So there's a lot in there, but he's essentially directing
Speaker 1: the Department of Justice to enforce, to go after and
Speaker 1: every chance they can the death Penalon also directed them
Speaker 1: to support states in whatever way they can, including making
Speaker 1: sure drugs are available for execution.
Speaker 2: Well, and it's interesting when you see him in this
Speaker 2: executive order pushing the capital punishment. He said that he
Speaker 2: wants the Attorney General to pursue federal jurisdiction and seek
Speaker 2: the death penalty regardless of other factors for every federal
Speaker 2: capital crime involving number one, the murder of a law
Speaker 2: enforcement officer. Number two, a capital crime committed by and
Speaker 2: these are their words, an illegal, an alien illegally present
Speaker 2: in this country.
Speaker 3: Wow. I didn't realize that, did you see that? And then.
Speaker 2: Just kept giving example after example with those two stood
Speaker 2: out as to when and how and where the Attorney
Speaker 2: General should seek the death penalty.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so this was some people took this and ran
Speaker 1: with it. Some people got the message, and maybe the
Speaker 1: Justice Department is being more helpful in helping states get
Speaker 1: execution dates planned and make sure they have the drugs
Speaker 1: their knees. So there are things that are attributing to this.
Speaker 1: But here we are two more inmates execute it on
Speaker 1: this night, and the week is not out. There are
Speaker 1: a couple more still scheduled.
Speaker 2: Yeah, there's an execution scheduled in Mississippi tomorrow and one
Speaker 2: in Arizona on Friday, And certainly we will continue to
Speaker 2: monitor this. I mean, it's a historic year, and not
Speaker 2: in the way that I think a lot of folks
Speaker 2: feel great about. Some people might say it's about time.
Speaker 2: Others might feel really sickened to buy where we are again,
Speaker 2: I think we've said this before, but we are the
Speaker 2: only Western civilized country that still has legal executions, and
Speaker 2: yet our crime rates are among the highest in those
Speaker 2: same Western civilized countries. So the deterrent factor of it
Speaker 2: is really up for grabs. And there's the moral debate, obviously,
Speaker 2: and there is a financial debate as well. It is
Speaker 2: significantly more expensive to execute a prisoner than to maintain
Speaker 2: them for life in prison.
Speaker 1: I don't know if it's getting more attention. I actually
Speaker 1: don't know if people are having more conversations about the
Speaker 1: death pilding so many more serious things or excuse me,
Speaker 1: pressing things I should say in people's lives. Maybe they
Speaker 1: are more of these conversations going on about who we are. Man,
Speaker 1: we are, we are something this year with these executions,
Speaker 1: seems bizarre that we are just routinely killing folks.
Speaker 2: But that's the United States of America right now in
Speaker 2: twenty twenty five.
Speaker 1: Well, folks, we appreciate you. Just want to hop on
Speaker 1: on this evening, so I hope you're having a good one.
Speaker 1: We always appreciate you listening to us. I'm TJ. Holmes,
Speaker 1: man of my dear Amy Robot. Will talk yo soon.