WEBVTT - Yes, The CIA Hired Magicians, Chapter One: The Craft and The Art 0:00:00.240 --> 0:00:04.680 From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is 0:00:04.760 --> 0:00:09.080 riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or 0:00:09.160 --> 0:00:12.119 learn this stuff they don't want you to know. A 0:00:12.200 --> 0:00:13.880 production of iHeartRadio. 0:00:25.360 --> 0:00:27.960 Hello, welcome back to the show. My name is Matt, 0:00:28.240 --> 0:00:29.720 my name is Noah. 0:00:29.840 --> 0:00:32.400 They call me Ben. We're joined as always with our 0:00:32.479 --> 0:00:36.440 super producer Andrew the try Force Howard. Most importantly, you 0:00:36.560 --> 0:00:40.080 are you. You are here. That makes this the stuff 0:00:40.120 --> 0:00:43.920 they don't want you to know. It's that time again, 0:00:44.360 --> 0:00:48.240 friends and neighbors, fellow conspiracy realists. We are exploring one 0:00:48.240 --> 0:00:52.600 of the largest subjects in all of US conspiracy lore, 0:00:52.800 --> 0:00:58.040 the Central Intelligence Agency or the CIA. And let's be honest, guys, 0:00:58.760 --> 0:01:00.160 they get a lot of guff. 0:01:01.000 --> 0:01:04.200 Yeah, well, I can't imagine what kind of issues people 0:01:04.280 --> 0:01:07.440 might have with the Central Intelligence Agency or a CIA. 0:01:08.280 --> 0:01:10.760 Well, I yeah, I think a lot of it has 0:01:10.840 --> 0:01:15.600 to do with how how much they employ trickery, right, 0:01:15.720 --> 0:01:20.600 that idea of the CIA being so deceptive, which is 0:01:20.840 --> 0:01:22.880 at the heart of this episode. 0:01:23.720 --> 0:01:26.960 That's right, yeah, which may end up being a two 0:01:27.000 --> 0:01:33.080 part episode a series, because we're diving into some deep water. Historically, 0:01:33.120 --> 0:01:36.760 it is true the agency as it's sometimes called this 0:01:36.959 --> 0:01:40.639 organization has met with a great deal of controversy over 0:01:40.680 --> 0:01:44.959 the decades, But tonight we're exploring a story many people 0:01:45.000 --> 0:01:48.560 may have missed. It's a bizarre and very true conspiracy. 0:01:50.400 --> 0:01:53.600 I don't know. Catch up on our episodes on mk Ultra. 0:01:54.360 --> 0:01:57.440 Catch up on the numerous times we roast the CIA 0:01:57.560 --> 0:02:02.000 a little bit for their weird, cartoonish acme level plans 0:02:02.040 --> 0:02:07.120 to kill Castro. And then after you do that, come 0:02:07.160 --> 0:02:12.119 back here exploding cigar piping in LSD to a studio. 0:02:12.280 --> 0:02:15.799 It's wild. Let's pause for a word from our sponsors, 0:02:16.080 --> 0:02:19.360 and then maybe we begin by learning more about the history, 0:02:19.800 --> 0:02:24.280 the fact and fiction surrounding Uncle Sam's most powerful known 0:02:24.520 --> 0:02:29.440 intelligence agency. And there's a lot of fact and fiction there. 0:02:35.280 --> 0:02:39.920 Here are the facts. All right, let's set this sage. 0:02:40.000 --> 0:02:42.320 Just give me some fiction thrown in for good measure, right. 0:02:42.320 --> 0:02:45.200 Oh, there has to be, Yeah, because a lot of 0:02:45.240 --> 0:02:51.880 the sources we're pulling are from the CIA itself. So yeah, 0:02:51.960 --> 0:02:55.919 maybe not an unbiased reporter, maybe a little bit of 0:02:55.960 --> 0:02:59.680 an Well, critics would call it an unreliable narrative, but 0:02:59.720 --> 0:03:03.720 that's that's what makes literature interesting. So where do we 0:03:03.760 --> 0:03:08.240 start when we talk about the CIA, what's our ultimate genesis, 0:03:08.280 --> 0:03:10.480 like our Garden of Eden moment. 0:03:11.480 --> 0:03:14.360 I guess I didn't realize comparatively, you know, as far 0:03:14.400 --> 0:03:18.160 as other agencies are concerned, how relatively recently the CIA 0:03:18.560 --> 0:03:22.880 was created. The United States has always been super invested 0:03:22.960 --> 0:03:27.120 in gathering of intelligence, so much that the CIA's Layson 0:03:27.600 --> 0:03:32.040 Conference Center named three of its meeting rooms after revolutionary 0:03:32.040 --> 0:03:38.480 war heroes. The idea of those early spymasters, right, yeah, oh. 0:03:38.400 --> 0:03:41.040 Yeah, absolutely, because you need to know what your enemy 0:03:41.160 --> 0:03:44.440 might be doing, and you also sometimes need to let 0:03:44.440 --> 0:03:47.400 your enemy think that you're gonna do something even when 0:03:47.440 --> 0:03:47.720 you're not. 0:03:48.760 --> 0:03:49.040 M h. 0:03:49.400 --> 0:03:52.440 And that goes it. Yeah, that's revolutionary times. That's I 0:03:52.480 --> 0:03:55.560 mean times are the Pharaohs. That's just go all the 0:03:55.600 --> 0:03:57.080 way back, Master. 0:03:56.840 --> 0:04:00.400 Of Whispers and the like and the George or an 0:04:00.440 --> 0:04:01.840 extended universe. 0:04:02.200 --> 0:04:05.680 Love of reference. Yeah, that's varus right. And then also 0:04:06.280 --> 0:04:11.720 we could extend that reasoning further later. There's inevitable mission 0:04:11.760 --> 0:04:15.400 creep in any intelligence operation, and you start to apply 0:04:15.480 --> 0:04:19.120 the same things to people you call allies and friends. Right, 0:04:19.240 --> 0:04:24.680 let me also just trust but verify what my friend, allies, 0:04:24.720 --> 0:04:26.400 my all of friends are saying. 0:04:27.240 --> 0:04:31.400 Yeah, friend and or foes. But I think the difference 0:04:31.560 --> 0:04:35.320 here and why the CIA really stands out for history 0:04:35.560 --> 0:04:39.840 and for you know, these types of organizations, is because 0:04:39.920 --> 0:04:43.800 often that intelligence is dealing in war times, right, and 0:04:43.839 --> 0:04:48.000 so you're you're gathering intelligence to make war, and the 0:04:48.040 --> 0:04:51.720 CIA is really getting into almost prevention of war. 0:04:51.839 --> 0:04:55.120 Well, think about the preprentish is coming you guys. I mean, 0:04:55.160 --> 0:04:57.680 the first of all, they had to know that was happening. 0:04:57.960 --> 0:05:00.559 Then they had to have a clandestine way for Paul 0:05:00.640 --> 0:05:03.679 Revere to let people know, you know, to be prepared 0:05:03.720 --> 0:05:06.080 with the candles in the window and all of that, 0:05:06.120 --> 0:05:08.799 which is a banger Elton JOHNSNG that was not apparently 0:05:08.839 --> 0:05:10.159 originally about Princess Diana. 0:05:11.200 --> 0:05:15.039 And check out also our episodes on Agent three point 0:05:15.040 --> 0:05:17.800 fifty five, who has yet to be identified in the 0:05:17.839 --> 0:05:21.680 modern day, and the culper Ring. If you go like 0:05:21.760 --> 0:05:24.200 you were saying no to the Liaisahl in the center, 0:05:24.760 --> 0:05:29.679 you'll see the CIA has I don't want to maybe 0:05:29.720 --> 0:05:34.960 not deify, but lionized a triumvirate of founding fathers that 0:05:35.000 --> 0:05:42.040 they consider emblematic and pioneers of three key aspects of intelligence. 0:05:42.320 --> 0:05:43.880 We've got, you know, now, it's like. 0:05:43.839 --> 0:05:44.480 A heist film. 0:05:44.560 --> 0:05:47.839 Right where everybody gets their little hero moment at the camera. 0:05:48.120 --> 0:05:52.080 George Washington did a lot of stuff. He's also he's 0:05:52.600 --> 0:05:58.040 also known as a pioneer in the acquisition of foreign intelligence. 0:05:58.160 --> 0:06:01.039 Key one turns out this guy was a cracker jack 0:06:01.080 --> 0:06:05.440 spymaster in addition to all this other stuff, including almost 0:06:05.440 --> 0:06:08.080 being king. But he did not do the cherry tree thing. 0:06:08.560 --> 0:06:11.480 That was more Yeah, well, met or lore. 0:06:11.760 --> 0:06:13.720 Why is it that I'm picturing all of these guys 0:06:13.760 --> 0:06:16.960 like in like street fighter to style versus you know, 0:06:17.120 --> 0:06:20.359 splash screen like it. We've got We've got John Jay 0:06:20.760 --> 0:06:23.440 as well. In addition to George, he would later become 0:06:23.520 --> 0:06:26.440 Chief Justice. He was also considered the founding father of 0:06:26.720 --> 0:06:28.480 US counter intelligence. 0:06:28.920 --> 0:06:32.320 And then we've got Ringo, my favorite. 0:06:31.920 --> 0:06:36.080 My favorite founder, Beetle just trucking. 0:06:37.120 --> 0:06:43.520 It is weird. George John. 0:06:42.440 --> 0:06:45.080 Let's call him by his prophib Christian name, Benjamin Franklin. 0:06:45.200 --> 0:06:48.320 What do we know, was you know, quite the renaissance man. 0:06:48.560 --> 0:06:52.200 And I'm sure with his you know, big brains, figured 0:06:52.200 --> 0:06:54.960 out some very clever ways of gathering intelligence and was 0:06:55.000 --> 0:06:58.320 a great collaborator in a lot of these schemes and. 0:06:58.400 --> 0:07:03.320 A very naughty boy on multiple levels. 0:07:04.040 --> 0:07:07.920 Yeah, but as we're gonna learn throughout these episodes, and 0:07:08.160 --> 0:07:12.240 as I guess as the CIA learned, those types of 0:07:12.280 --> 0:07:16.440 activities where there's a lot of commingling going on, maybe 0:07:16.480 --> 0:07:20.960 a little activity physical mental. 0:07:21.160 --> 0:07:21.640 Where. 0:07:23.040 --> 0:07:26.280 Well, that's where a lot of intelligence can be both 0:07:26.320 --> 0:07:30.800 gathered and you know, given to somebody else quietly. It's 0:07:30.840 --> 0:07:33.480 it's almost it's kind of creepy now that I really 0:07:33.560 --> 0:07:35.760 think about it, because I know that's why he was 0:07:35.800 --> 0:07:37.760 so good, That's why he was so good. 0:07:37.800 --> 0:07:40.480 Well, not to mention flipping that the other way in 0:07:40.600 --> 0:07:44.720 sort of a honeypot operation like a sting operation for entrapping, 0:07:45.160 --> 0:07:49.960 you know, foreign agents, you know, or gathering information clandestinely 0:07:50.040 --> 0:07:52.400 through a little little naughty time. 0:07:53.600 --> 0:07:58.840 Yeah, this guy, old old BINGI f he probably didn't 0:07:58.840 --> 0:08:03.000 go by Benji Benny Franks to his friend. Yeah, yeah, 0:08:03.680 --> 0:08:05.960 I don't know why. I don't care for Benny. I 0:08:05.960 --> 0:08:08.720 don't know anyway, it's up to him. It's his name, 0:08:09.040 --> 0:08:09.920 uh Frank. 0:08:09.960 --> 0:08:11.040 Because of the Jets. 0:08:11.840 --> 0:08:16.680 Sorry, then, in fact, are you the Jets? 0:08:17.040 --> 0:08:20.480 Are you serious? Benny and the Jets a banker. 0:08:22.840 --> 0:08:24.640 This conversation, you have issues. 0:08:24.640 --> 0:08:27.240 I think you might be taking it a little personally, 0:08:27.240 --> 0:08:27.640 Ben you. 0:08:27.600 --> 0:08:31.080 Need to realize I'm too close. I got too close. 0:08:31.160 --> 0:08:34.960 Somebody exfiltrate me from the ulti job mission. 0:08:35.080 --> 0:08:38.880 My dear friend day stayed Glass Artist. 0:08:39.160 --> 0:08:41.559 She hates the song It's a Beautiful Day by You 0:08:41.679 --> 0:08:44.000 too because she got teased with that all the time, 0:08:44.040 --> 0:08:46.360 and therefore she thinks she hates the band you two, 0:08:46.400 --> 0:08:48.520 and I've tried to show her like the Joshua Tree 0:08:48.520 --> 0:08:50.320 and turn her off from that way of thinking. 0:08:50.640 --> 0:08:51.920 I understand, Ben. 0:08:52.520 --> 0:08:55.480 Where are you at with the first Noelle? I think 0:08:55.520 --> 0:08:57.000 you at this in the past. 0:08:57.040 --> 0:08:59.120 Okay, okay, this is not I would not be just 0:08:59.320 --> 0:09:02.800 I don't I would be discounting an entire genre or era. 0:09:03.600 --> 0:09:05.760 I'm not a huge fan of Christmas songs in general, 0:09:05.760 --> 0:09:08.240 but the first no Wel, I just don't like you 0:09:08.240 --> 0:09:10.360 when people think that they're the first one that's ever 0:09:10.400 --> 0:09:11.880 thought of that, You know what I mean? 0:09:12.200 --> 0:09:18.000 Hey, I have have you been bowling lately? Holy step 0:09:18.080 --> 0:09:25.800 Aside Shakespeare a new wordsmith in town? Anyway? Regular over here? 0:09:26.720 --> 0:09:28.920 Are you? Fred or Rick? 0:09:29.520 --> 0:09:30.199 Oh? 0:09:34.559 --> 0:09:39.640 Oh shit, that's terrible. Sorry, Andrew, thanks for bv B. God. 0:09:39.880 --> 0:09:43.080 Matt, Wow, I'm sorry that happened to you. But Matt, 0:09:43.200 --> 0:09:44.319 now I know who hurt. 0:09:44.120 --> 0:09:47.120 You terrible, that's terrible for he won. 0:09:48.040 --> 0:09:52.840 So so, uh, we all have our burdens to bear. 0:09:53.679 --> 0:09:58.040 Ben Franklin's was he was. He was wearing a lot 0:09:58.080 --> 0:10:00.800 of hats. He's a the old Liberty is known for, 0:10:01.200 --> 0:10:04.600 you know, being saucy and then allegedly being a serial 0:10:04.679 --> 0:10:07.280 killer at some parts of history. 0:10:07.840 --> 0:10:10.360 More likely a resurrection man, you know what I mean. 0:10:10.400 --> 0:10:15.680 He's doing some experiments in his creepy basement like you do. 0:10:15.960 --> 0:10:17.480 But he like, like we were saying, though, I mean, 0:10:17.520 --> 0:10:20.640 the dude had smarts and he was very forward thinking, 0:10:20.840 --> 0:10:23.200 very clever, and Ben, like I was saying, I imagine 0:10:23.200 --> 0:10:26.400 that he must have been super useful in the war room, right. 0:10:27.080 --> 0:10:28.000 Yeah, he was. 0:10:28.080 --> 0:10:35.640 Actually he was actually more involved in the direct kind 0:10:35.640 --> 0:10:40.040 of wetwork you might call it or covert action, because 0:10:40.360 --> 0:10:47.959 he was masterminding strategizing propaganda operations, influence campaigns, and good 0:10:48.040 --> 0:10:53.760 old fashioned paramilitary ops against the British. These guys, these 0:10:53.800 --> 0:10:58.040 three guys we just named George Washington, Acquisition of Foreign Intel, 0:10:58.440 --> 0:11:03.280 John Jay Founding, father of Intelligence, Benjamin Franklin covert action. 0:11:04.640 --> 0:11:08.200 They had that startup mentality, you know, they were doing 0:11:08.320 --> 0:11:10.440 other stuff. They were wearing a lot of hats, and 0:11:10.480 --> 0:11:13.400 they had to wear a lot of hats at this 0:11:13.520 --> 0:11:19.640 time because the course of the revolution was determined successfully 0:11:19.920 --> 0:11:24.719 by this tendency to exercise and this appetite for unorthodox 0:11:24.840 --> 0:11:30.640 asymmetric strategies. You know, forget Napoleonic warfare lining people up 0:11:30.679 --> 0:11:34.560 in rows. First they didn't have enough resources in terms 0:11:34.559 --> 0:11:38.840 of firepower and ammunition to do that, and then secondly 0:11:39.160 --> 0:11:42.400 they had these This gave them a tremendous advantage. They 0:11:42.440 --> 0:11:47.280 had these new, agile ways of thinking, and the somewhat 0:11:47.720 --> 0:11:52.959 I want to be unfair, but the somewhat tradition bound 0:11:53.320 --> 0:11:56.800 rigor of European enemies couldn't deal with it. They were 0:11:56.840 --> 0:11:58.239 speaking different languages. 0:11:58.280 --> 0:11:58.680 In war. 0:11:59.280 --> 0:12:03.000 Asymmetric just kind of meaning unorthodox or maybe not not 0:12:03.200 --> 0:12:07.520 traditional like battlefield like you said, Ben, like the infantry 0:12:07.600 --> 0:12:10.280 the front lines. This is like wars fought on multiple 0:12:10.320 --> 0:12:15.040 fronts using kind of more secretive means of gathering information 0:12:15.160 --> 0:12:16.920 about your enemy so that you can kind of head 0:12:16.960 --> 0:12:18.200 them off at the past. 0:12:18.920 --> 0:12:21.400 Yeah, the way I think about it is exactly what 0:12:21.440 --> 0:12:24.120 you described it, Ben. Those two If you imagine two 0:12:24.679 --> 0:12:28.280 armies in revolutionary times looking at each other with their muskets, 0:12:28.320 --> 0:12:31.720 and everything just aiming. That is symmetric warfare. Yes, you've 0:12:31.720 --> 0:12:35.240 got two identical, you know, forces that are like, I 0:12:35.320 --> 0:12:38.160 will win, I will win in this way. You got 0:12:38.240 --> 0:12:41.000 some flanking folks right from one of the sides, you 0:12:41.080 --> 0:12:43.120 got somebody that sneaks up from behind, and then it 0:12:43.440 --> 0:12:45.079 just becomes Now it's asymmetrical. 0:12:45.440 --> 0:12:48.000 But it also refers to the information gathering of it 0:12:48.040 --> 0:12:48.600 all too, right. 0:12:48.600 --> 0:12:51.800 Oh yeah, yes, yeah, yeah, And there were you know, 0:12:51.920 --> 0:12:56.000 of course there were turncoats on, you know, working for 0:12:56.080 --> 0:13:00.319 the British. The game goes both ways. A modern examsample 0:13:00.559 --> 0:13:03.520 of asymmetric warfare, which we've talked about in the past, 0:13:05.000 --> 0:13:11.200 is pretty scary. At some point, multiple countries, especially China, 0:13:11.520 --> 0:13:16.560 looked at the massive US Navy, especially the carriers and 0:13:16.600 --> 0:13:18.840 the battle groups, and they said, all right, we could 0:13:18.840 --> 0:13:22.720 spend billions of dollars trying to make a carrier, or 0:13:22.760 --> 0:13:26.160 we could spend far less money building a missile that 0:13:26.160 --> 0:13:29.920 can definitely just blow up a carrier, and that's what 0:13:30.000 --> 0:13:35.600 they went for. That's asymmetry. It's still a huge deal 0:13:35.760 --> 0:13:39.600 because it works, and you know, we could make an 0:13:39.760 --> 0:13:44.160 entire podcast series about the Revolutionary War and all the 0:13:44.200 --> 0:13:48.600 crazy espionage occurring. Then a lot of people have there's 0:13:48.640 --> 0:13:52.120 no shortage of scholarship on the matter. But in general, 0:13:53.200 --> 0:13:56.440 if in general, in major general and brigadier general, if 0:13:56.440 --> 0:14:00.360 we're talking about the road to modern intelligence are story 0:14:00.440 --> 0:14:06.240 begins with something called the Office of Strategic Services in 0:14:06.360 --> 0:14:09.800 nineteen forty two. Oh man, these guys have popped up 0:14:10.080 --> 0:14:13.520 in previous episodes as well, right, that's right. 0:14:13.720 --> 0:14:18.960 During the Spanish American War, World War One, and other conflicts, 0:14:19.000 --> 0:14:23.000 intelligence gathering was considered a bit more ad hoc. I guess, 0:14:23.080 --> 0:14:25.280 sort of on a case by case basis, right, like, 0:14:25.320 --> 0:14:27.840 sort of as a needed per project. 0:14:28.960 --> 0:14:34.480 Yeah. Like Matt was saying earlier, a lot of this 0:14:34.720 --> 0:14:40.400 would depend upon person to person interactions, right, finding the 0:14:40.480 --> 0:14:43.560 right time to pass the letter, Oh I know you 0:14:43.680 --> 0:14:49.400 from the salon earlier, the viscounts since his regards. 0:14:50.120 --> 0:14:54.200 Oh yeah, well, and also intelligence gathering on a specific location, right, 0:14:54.240 --> 0:14:56.560 and then folks who were working in that location because 0:14:56.560 --> 0:14:58.800 it's a strategic target or something like that. 0:14:59.200 --> 0:14:59.600 I don't know. 0:14:59.800 --> 0:15:01.640 Yeah, ad hoc is a really good way to put it. 0:15:02.120 --> 0:15:05.240 I sometimes don't even understand fully what it means. What 0:15:05.320 --> 0:15:09.160 that means, but it's used in a couple of different ways. 0:15:09.160 --> 0:15:11.360 In American English, it. 0:15:11.360 --> 0:15:13.720 Doesn't just kind of mean as needed, like, yes, I 0:15:13.720 --> 0:15:15.200 think that's what presents itself. 0:15:15.800 --> 0:15:18.040 That's how I think about it, but I honestly don't 0:15:18.040 --> 0:15:18.720 know if that's right. 0:15:19.240 --> 0:15:22.040 It's also kind of kind of jazz, like jazz can 0:15:22.080 --> 0:15:24.960 be because it's on the spur of the moment. There's 0:15:25.000 --> 0:15:26.480 a bit of improvisation. 0:15:26.760 --> 0:15:27.160 There's not. 0:15:27.880 --> 0:15:32.840 Ad hoc means that there is not this clearly established, 0:15:32.960 --> 0:15:36.120 ironclad rubric for a procedure. 0:15:36.760 --> 0:15:41.000 So like or an agency that like a centralized you know, 0:15:42.160 --> 0:15:43.560 command structure, right. 0:15:43.800 --> 0:15:48.600 You know, yeah, call those guys. We need some intelligence, right, right, right, Yes, 0:15:48.720 --> 0:15:49.800 it's only. 0:15:50.960 --> 0:15:54.680 Right. So if you, for instance, if you are uh, 0:15:55.240 --> 0:15:58.840 running down a flight of stairs and you stumble and 0:15:58.880 --> 0:16:03.240 you catch yourself, you have done some ad hoc Parker, right, 0:16:05.000 --> 0:16:10.600 So depending on how you stumble. I don't know anyway, 0:16:10.720 --> 0:16:16.080 this like we're saying, this was all again case by case, right, 0:16:16.280 --> 0:16:22.280 No big central, nervous system of espionage and intelligence gathering, 0:16:22.880 --> 0:16:27.720 and a lot of times it depended upon individuals who 0:16:27.760 --> 0:16:32.640 could travel to places. Right, you want to know what's 0:16:32.680 --> 0:16:36.120 going on in Europe, then you have to talk to 0:16:36.240 --> 0:16:38.680 Americans who can travel over there. 0:16:39.200 --> 0:16:41.320 The people who would be able to hide in plain 0:16:41.480 --> 0:16:44.520 sight as well, Yeah, would be seen as being out 0:16:44.520 --> 0:16:44.960 of place. 0:16:45.720 --> 0:16:48.440 Think about how tough that is. Somebody who can gain 0:16:48.600 --> 0:16:51.560 access to an adversary that's high enough to have the 0:16:51.600 --> 0:16:59.120 intelligence you need and also not be on anyone's radar somehow. Right, 0:16:59.120 --> 0:17:00.120 that's a tough. 0:17:01.200 --> 0:17:02.600 We love spy movies so much. 0:17:02.640 --> 0:17:05.240 The snakes are always so damn high, the idea of 0:17:05.240 --> 0:17:07.040 getting your cover blown, right. 0:17:07.480 --> 0:17:10.439 Yeah, And that's why. Also, I can't remember it, did 0:17:10.520 --> 0:17:15.400 one of you guys at some point recommend the show 0:17:15.520 --> 0:17:16.280 The Agency. 0:17:17.080 --> 0:17:20.320 Well, there's an original French version that is apparently quite good, 0:17:20.320 --> 0:17:22.560 and there's a new remake with Richard Gear that is 0:17:22.600 --> 0:17:24.879 also apparently quite good. And I have seen neither, but 0:17:24.920 --> 0:17:26.320 I've heard great things about both. 0:17:27.000 --> 0:17:30.879 Okay, Yeah, this bringing this up because a great deal 0:17:31.040 --> 0:17:34.040 of the books in the French series at least, is 0:17:34.160 --> 0:17:40.480 all about the maintenance of a cover or a persona, 0:17:41.000 --> 0:17:44.240 and it's possible psychological effects over the long term. 0:17:44.400 --> 0:17:48.200 Right, nice dude. That's why I like The Recruit so much, 0:17:49.480 --> 0:17:52.439 that show on Netflix. I think it's about a newbie 0:17:53.080 --> 0:17:55.800 getting getting thrown into that world, you know, with the 0:17:56.040 --> 0:17:58.080 like even his job as a cover and then you're 0:17:58.119 --> 0:18:00.399 just like, oh my god, everything just becomes what is 0:18:00.440 --> 0:18:01.680 my life? What is this thing? 0:18:02.240 --> 0:18:03.520 I'll tell you what else is go. 0:18:03.640 --> 0:18:06.240 We're recommending spy type shows, you know, there's been an 0:18:06.480 --> 0:18:10.080 embarrassment of riches of those lately Black Doves, which is 0:18:10.119 --> 0:18:13.159 also I want to say, a Netflix show with that 0:18:13.200 --> 0:18:16.919 guy Ben Wishaw who's also known as the voice of 0:18:17.000 --> 0:18:19.640 Paddington and one of my favorite films of all time. 0:18:20.080 --> 0:18:22.760 It's it's not CI it's British intelligence, but it really 0:18:22.800 --> 0:18:24.600 does tickle out of the boxes as we're talking about. 0:18:24.600 --> 0:18:26.960 And of course Slow Horses, which we've talked about at 0:18:27.720 --> 0:18:28.880 So Good love that. 0:18:29.040 --> 0:18:33.960 Yeah, I read, I read, I think the first two books. 0:18:34.200 --> 0:18:37.120 I want to say as well, too good, too good. 0:18:37.280 --> 0:18:39.160 I stopped reading the books because I want to watch 0:18:39.200 --> 0:18:41.120 the show. That's how I learned about it. And now 0:18:41.160 --> 0:18:43.920 I'll watch The Recruit and then I'll watch Black Doves. 0:18:44.600 --> 0:18:50.359 Yeah, and spies everywhere. 0:18:50.760 --> 0:18:52.760 Yeah, yeah, lurking you know. 0:18:52.920 --> 0:18:59.280 Yeah, we're not paranoid folks. So so this idea here, 0:18:59.480 --> 0:19:04.680 this case by case basis, this lack of a centralized authority, 0:19:04.840 --> 0:19:09.560 nervous system, the analogy we used earlier, This all changed 0:19:09.760 --> 0:19:14.080 in World War Two because at the beginning, the United 0:19:14.080 --> 0:19:17.080 States got their ass handed to them in Pearl Harbor. 0:19:17.720 --> 0:19:25.240 You said, ass hand, it's an enormous tragedy. We're not 0:19:25.359 --> 0:19:27.960 trying to be you know, We're being honest. And it 0:19:27.960 --> 0:19:31.000 may sound glib, it may sound flip, but the reality 0:19:31.119 --> 0:19:35.800 is there was a successful Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor. 0:19:35.920 --> 0:19:41.560 It cost thousands of lives and war Nerds, war Nerds 0:19:41.640 --> 0:19:43.840 knew there was precedent for this, didn't they. 0:19:44.280 --> 0:19:46.560 Yeah, And just really quickly, speaking of war Nerds, do 0:19:46.720 --> 0:19:49.360 check out a two part series Ben and I did 0:19:49.359 --> 0:19:53.480 on Ridiculous History. It was almost like about a precursor 0:19:53.640 --> 0:19:57.280 or sort of like an early attempt at the kind 0:19:57.320 --> 0:20:00.000 of warfare that the Japanese would employ during Pearl Harbor. 0:20:02.600 --> 0:20:06.600 Yeah, at that time it was against the Russian Empire 0:20:07.240 --> 0:20:11.479 in the turn of the nineteenth century. This time, it 0:20:11.600 --> 0:20:14.879 was the attack on the Pearl Harbor naval base that 0:20:15.000 --> 0:20:19.000 galvanized the US public to support intervention in World War Two. 0:20:19.280 --> 0:20:24.400 It also launched some pretty serious conspiracy theories that continue 0:20:24.440 --> 0:20:28.000 in the modern day. How much did the US power 0:20:28.080 --> 0:20:31.879 apparatus know about Pearl Harbor or the likelihood of it 0:20:31.960 --> 0:20:39.520 occurring in advance, or did US trade policies push the 0:20:39.640 --> 0:20:44.280 Japanese Empire towards something where from their perspective, Pearl Harbor 0:20:44.400 --> 0:20:45.120 was inevitable. 0:20:45.800 --> 0:20:48.800 Yeah, it's a tough question, and it's something we've explored 0:20:48.800 --> 0:20:51.399 in a bunch of different episodes, like our one on 0:20:51.480 --> 0:20:54.479 the Project for the New American Century and stuff like that, 0:20:54.560 --> 0:20:58.240 where if you have an event and Pearl Harbor is 0:20:58.320 --> 0:21:01.120 used as an example in that specific episode, and that's 0:21:01.640 --> 0:21:04.440 set of circumstances, But if you have an event like that, 0:21:04.880 --> 0:21:09.720 it will spur both the public mind right to want 0:21:09.920 --> 0:21:13.040 a certain thing, but also it will open up dollars 0:21:13.520 --> 0:21:16.080 in budgets to create a thing potentially that you want 0:21:16.119 --> 0:21:18.720 to create even you know, and it doesn't mean that's 0:21:18.720 --> 0:21:22.359 what happens when there's something like that. It just calls 0:21:22.359 --> 0:21:25.160 in to question the motivations perhaps, right. 0:21:25.480 --> 0:21:29.399 One hundred percent. Yeah, well said there too, because that 0:21:30.200 --> 0:21:35.520 shows us the system at play, right, the structural reckonings 0:21:35.520 --> 0:21:40.200 that occur and to the US establishment at large. In 0:21:40.240 --> 0:21:43.320 the wake of Pearl Harbor, while the events of World 0:21:43.359 --> 0:21:47.040 War two are unfolding, everyone in the halls of Power 0:21:47.200 --> 0:21:51.280 DC is looking at each other and say holy smokes, 0:21:51.840 --> 0:21:55.240 if this happens again, it could end the nation. 0:21:56.240 --> 0:21:56.760 Like we. 0:21:58.600 --> 0:22:02.360 Stop so bad. That's essentially what they're saying. I don't 0:22:02.400 --> 0:22:05.560 mean to sound like we're characters on drunk History, which 0:22:05.600 --> 0:22:08.400 is a great show, check it out, but that is 0:22:08.520 --> 0:22:12.600 the like, that's the to your point all about high stakes. 0:22:12.800 --> 0:22:15.840 That's the level of the stakes here. And that's why 0:22:15.920 --> 0:22:21.119 President Roosevelt calls up a very highly decorated veteran of 0:22:21.200 --> 0:22:25.760 World War One, a man named William J. Donovan. 0:22:27.400 --> 0:22:30.600 Oh Billy Donovan, Oh Billy J. 0:22:31.240 --> 0:22:31.639 Billy J. 0:22:32.280 --> 0:22:36.960 Is kind of a cowboy. He's not the soldier you 0:22:37.040 --> 0:22:39.240 take home to your parents, Let's put it that way. 0:22:39.560 --> 0:22:42.320 And he says, all right, Donovan, you're gonna head a 0:22:42.359 --> 0:22:45.560 new organization. It's the first of its kind in the 0:22:45.680 --> 0:22:48.479 United States. We've been kind of ad hoc for a while. 0:22:49.240 --> 0:22:53.639 I'm gonna call it the Coordinator of Information. And then 0:22:53.680 --> 0:22:59.520 apparently all the other generals went, eh, eh. 0:22:58.800 --> 0:23:02.600 Doesn't really have a ring to it. Yeah, I know, 0:23:02.840 --> 0:23:04.760 I know we have to go vague with these things, 0:23:04.760 --> 0:23:06.400 but that's a little too much. 0:23:06.720 --> 0:23:10.000 Right right, And it was like Secretary of Secrets and 0:23:10.040 --> 0:23:12.480 they said no. The abbreviation is S o s that's 0:23:12.480 --> 0:23:13.600 gonna screw up everything. 0:23:15.080 --> 0:23:16.240 No, one don't can use. 0:23:21.040 --> 0:23:23.639 Secretary of secrets. Though it does sound fun. Yeah, I 0:23:24.520 --> 0:23:26.080 like it when you say it out loud like that. 0:23:26.119 --> 0:23:28.280 It's I love the alliteration as well. 0:23:28.920 --> 0:23:31.400 Yeah, yeah, agree, it's got a how would you say? 0:23:31.560 --> 0:23:32.760 A good feel? 0:23:33.280 --> 0:23:39.399 Yeah, but it's also maybe a little too fun. You know, 0:23:39.640 --> 0:23:53.520 how do you introduce yourself and a serious I'm. 0:23:48.760 --> 0:23:50.560 Shouting into a cat right now? 0:23:51.600 --> 0:23:53.240 He really did, he did. 0:23:53.280 --> 0:23:54.480 It's not a figure of speech. 0:23:55.320 --> 0:23:58.760 I've been podcasting from upstairs lately just to kind of know, 0:23:58.840 --> 0:24:00.440 have a little change of scenery in This cat is 0:24:00.480 --> 0:24:04.040 obsessed with me like I never Oh my god, it's like, 0:24:04.080 --> 0:24:04.800 I love this cat. 0:24:04.920 --> 0:24:07.080 I love Vanessa. I love you, but you're making me 0:24:07.160 --> 0:24:09.639 go crazy right now. Sorry, guys, carry on, please. 0:24:09.600 --> 0:24:12.440 Oh send her my way. 0:24:13.200 --> 0:24:14.280 I did she heard you? 0:24:14.359 --> 0:24:20.200