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Speaker 1: Hey, and welcome to What Future. I'm your host, Joshua

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Speaker 1: to Pulsky and today very special guests, very a very

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Speaker 1: special guest who has experienced a lot of intense online

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Speaker 1: harassment and which it does sound like something to tout,

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Speaker 1: but that is the reality. I'm Lyrah. As you know,

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Speaker 1: I've been thinking a lot about being online. It is

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Speaker 1: sort of one of my main things. It's possible to

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Speaker 1: my only thing. I'm starting to think maybe I don't

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Speaker 1: have any other things except being online. Who would I

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Speaker 1: be if I were not online? Happy? I'd be a

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Speaker 1: happy person. That's what I would be if I were

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Speaker 1: not online. Anyhow, I am a little bit fixated on

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Speaker 1: social media as of late because it's been such a

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Speaker 1: disgusting mass out there. And after talking to Kaye see

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Speaker 1: our guest today retweeted it and liked the post I

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Speaker 1: did about the Casey Show, and it's Taylor Lorenz, who

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Speaker 1: I don't know if do you know Taylor Lorenz? Are

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Speaker 1: you familiar with her writing at all? Yeah? I'm familiar

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Speaker 1: with her as being like a very sought after guests,

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Speaker 1: very sought after guests, very hot guests, but also like

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Speaker 1: an incredible journalist and who's responsible for like some really

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Speaker 1: really crazy stories, and and often when she writes something,

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Speaker 1: it is one it is like some huge deal like expose,

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Speaker 1: or like you've discovered some horrible thing about some person.

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Speaker 1: You're like, oh, this like famous troll, like now we

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Speaker 1: know who it is, or Nuke Gingrich actually has a

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Speaker 1: burner account that he's used to harass women or whatever.

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Speaker 1: It's like things like that, and people lose their minds

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Speaker 1: on the Internet and they go after Taylor, and from

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Speaker 1: what I can tell, seem to be making her life

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Speaker 1: a living hell. But like I thought, let's talk about

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Speaker 1: like this state of things on the Internet, because it

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Speaker 1: feels to me like it's so intense and overwhelming, particularly

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Speaker 1: for her. And as we're at this kind of inflection

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Speaker 1: point of this sort of change over in how I

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Speaker 1: feel like we're all living with and dealing with social media,

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Speaker 1: I think she's like a perfect investigator of this moment

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Speaker 1: in time and sort of like interrogator of the culture

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Speaker 1: of being online. And so not to build it up

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Speaker 1: too much, but our guest today is Washington Post writer

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Speaker 1: and brilliant journalist Taylor Lorenz. Taylor, I'm very excited to

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Speaker 1: be talking to you because there's a lot happening right

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Speaker 1: now in your world, which is the Internet. Actually, we

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Speaker 1: talked a little bit. There was a Twitter space. Sure

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Speaker 1: you recall this like a few weeks ago and you

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Speaker 1: were on it for a little bit. Do you recall

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Speaker 1: what I'm talking out or do I just sound crazy? Right?

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Speaker 1: Of course? I remember you came on and we started

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Speaker 1: talking about Twitter and other social networks. We talked about mastadon,

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Speaker 1: which is one of my favorite topics as of like

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Speaker 1: because I'm a huge nerd, and you said something to

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Speaker 1: me that I thought was so surprising and interesting considering

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Speaker 1: who you are and what you do. I don't want

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Speaker 1: to put words in your mouth back. You were basically like,

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Speaker 1: there's not enough trolls on Mastodon. Was like kind of

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Speaker 1: my uh takeaway? Would you say, would you say that's true?

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Speaker 1: You don't feel like there are enough like nasty elements

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Speaker 1: on like some of these new social networks. Uh No,

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Speaker 1: I wouldn't say nasty elements. But I do think that

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Speaker 1: it's overly sanitized. I don't think that there's enough sort

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Speaker 1: of creativity and free form discussion. I say that as

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Speaker 1: I'm like literally being canceled on Twitter. But I know

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Speaker 1: are you really, Oh my god, I'm joking. I like

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Speaker 1: fucked up and I like defended this like terrible person

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Speaker 1: because I didn't realize there are terrible now I did.

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Speaker 1: I competed my tweet, but of course someone screenshot at

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Speaker 1: it and it's like gotten thousands of likes on some

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Speaker 1: sweet calling me a monster, And you're like, that's what

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Speaker 1: you like? You're missing that when you're on Masodon, is

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Speaker 1: that there people aren't like mobbing you. No, I don't

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Speaker 1: like any of that. I don't like any of that.

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Speaker 1: But I guess what I do appreciate about Twitter is

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Speaker 1: like the serendipity of it and the kind of like

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Speaker 1: being exposed to new things and being challenged on things

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Speaker 1: like I do like that, Like I do you know

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Speaker 1: like how kind of big and messy it is and

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Speaker 1: Mastodon just feels too controlled. Yeah, it's definitely smaller. Right.

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Speaker 1: It reminds me of like not to get into a

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Speaker 1: masked on conversation because it was more like about your

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Speaker 1: perspective on this, which I find so interesting. And I'm reading, now,

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Speaker 1: what did you like retweet something about some chili story? Yeah,

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Speaker 1: well so like well, no, let me just explain in

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Speaker 1: like a few times it's lovely, kind woman made chili

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Speaker 1: her neighbors, and this like other person comes in and

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Speaker 1: basically accuses her of being a horrible person and being

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Speaker 1: racist or something because she made assumptions about her. That's crazy. Okay,

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Speaker 1: So so thousands of people pile on that deranged reply,

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Speaker 1: and I was like, do we really need to pile

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Speaker 1: on this like deranged person, Like clearly they're having a

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Speaker 1: bad day or there's some ship going on with them. Like,

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Speaker 1: I don't think that these dynamics are productive. I mean

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Speaker 1: the person who just sorry, just to be clear, the

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Speaker 1: person who was like this story about this woman making

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Speaker 1: chili is like racist or whatever. Right, You're like, don't

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Speaker 1: pick on that person. Well, my opinion of all of

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Speaker 1: that is just like block that person and like move on.

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Speaker 1: Like people say a lot of dumb shit on the website,

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Speaker 1: and not to say that they don't deserve pushback. In

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Speaker 1: this case, they did, but like, I don't know if

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Speaker 1: it's productive weeks later to be like, you know, harassing

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Speaker 1: them on off the internet. And what I didn't realize

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Speaker 1: is that person has actually harassed the chili woman. Um

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Speaker 1: and I say chili woman because I don't actually know

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Speaker 1: her full name, and I don't want to say her

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Speaker 1: Twitter handle, but she'd actually been been really cruel to

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Speaker 1: her for a while, So that was my bad. I

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Speaker 1: didn't know any of that. She had been cruel to

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Speaker 1: the Chili woman for a while. Yeah, she had been

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Speaker 1: harassing her for a while. Okay, So I feel like

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Speaker 1: some of this is a little bit like an extension

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Speaker 1: of there was a conversation that started maybe a day

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Speaker 1: or two ago on Twitter about the craziest thread that

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Speaker 1: you've seen on Twitter, like of how how illustrative it

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Speaker 1: is of how unwell everybody is, because these threads are

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Speaker 1: so like there's it's like there was a thread a

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Speaker 1: few months ago where somebody was like reading books as ablest,

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Speaker 1: Like it's not what they said, that's not what they said.

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Speaker 1: So this is a good example of exactly, Josh, they

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Speaker 1: didn't though, this is like this is the point is

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Speaker 1: that like, they didn't say that, And these really nuanced

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Speaker 1: discussions that people try and have, especially around disability in

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Speaker 1: their small in group of followers, often get taken out

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Speaker 1: of context, simplified and kind of made into a mockery.

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Speaker 1: And look, you know, and a lot of these people

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Speaker 1: that get piled on are like, you know, they're neurodivergent,

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Speaker 1: they're not you know, they're not necessarily communicating very well.

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Speaker 1: My feeling of that is, if they're not being problematic,

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Speaker 1: if they're not being bullies themselves, just let them have

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Speaker 1: their discussions and we don't need to dogpile people, especially

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Speaker 1: if they have like under a thousand followers, which you

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Speaker 1: know in some cases is the case. Like but this

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Speaker 1: this tweet was just to be clear, Sorry, the tweet

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Speaker 1: I'm talking about is this is the tweet and I

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Speaker 1: and if I misunderstand it, then it's again's Anna Mardal.

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Speaker 1: It's Anna Mardal. There's a threat going around mocking writers

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Speaker 1: who quote don't read very much, and I'm trying not

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Speaker 1: to haul out my soapbox, but this is able list.

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Speaker 1: Not everyone can read for pleasure or indeed at all,

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Speaker 1: and some of those people are writers. I think, yeah,

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Speaker 1: let me let me just like you know, let me try.

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Speaker 1: And there's actually a whole thread that I believe that

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Speaker 1: person who's also turned out to work for Lockeed Martin.

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Speaker 1: So I'm certainly not defending them. This is a person

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Speaker 1: who got then canceled because they're like, I'm a contractor

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Speaker 1: for Lockey Parker. And so again I really really trust me.

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Speaker 1: This is not me like defending this person or any

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Speaker 1: of these people. I'm just saying, like, you know, a

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Speaker 1: lot of these discussions, like somebody that is very dyslexic

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Speaker 1: as a writer has always struggled with reading, Like they're

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Speaker 1: not saying that reading is ablest, but I think they're

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Speaker 1: trying to open a discussion, albeit poorly, about you know,

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Speaker 1: writing and reading and the accessibility sort of nature of that. Right, Like, fine,

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Speaker 1: you know, obviously they're not communicating it. Well, obviously it's

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Speaker 1: easy to dunk on. Does that mean that that person

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Speaker 1: is to be subject to weeks of pylon? And like, no, no,

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Speaker 1: that's just crazy, definitely not right. And so first of all,

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Speaker 1: I was always team make chili for your neighbors always.

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Speaker 1: I always think that that is that woman is an

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Speaker 1: angel and lovely and a person attacking them was clearly

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Speaker 1: not you know, being very kind and whatever. But my

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Speaker 1: feeling is just as somebody that deals with a lot

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Speaker 1: of harassment is like, Okay, we don't need to like

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Speaker 1: necessarily destroy that other person's life. In this case, I

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Speaker 1: realized that person is actually a notorious stroll so I'm

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Speaker 1: not really going to go out of my way to

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Speaker 1: defend them, but right, but when they're not, sometimes people

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Speaker 1: don't word things correctly or word things perfectly, and I

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Speaker 1: don't know it gets picked up by some account, but

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Speaker 1: it is that that is like part of the problem

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Speaker 1: with Twitter, I mean social media kind of largely, but

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Speaker 1: it's really easy on Twitter. I mean Twitter is sort

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Speaker 1: of custom made for this sort of like one I

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Speaker 1: said something super dumb, maybe not even dumb, but like

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Speaker 1: I said something that was a poorly formed thought, or

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Speaker 1: I worded it badly, or I was having a bad day,

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Speaker 1: and so I kind of said it in a way

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Speaker 1: that was a little bit more aggressive or something. And

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Speaker 1: then immediately all of the tools of Twitter are like

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Speaker 1: not the people, but like the tools they provide are

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Speaker 1: like you could amplify it, and you can dunk on it,

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Speaker 1: and you can like screenshot it, and you can quote

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Speaker 1: tweet and you can do all these things that are

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Speaker 1: like make it very easy to generate that kind of

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Speaker 1: context free commentary about the thing. In fact, you and

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Speaker 1: I talked about this on Twitter a little bit. Um

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Speaker 1: you were talking about the quote tweet function and how

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Speaker 1: it's like not it's not automatically like a harassment function,

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Speaker 1: but it can be used that way. I mean you

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Speaker 1: were sort of like saying like it's not really that

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Speaker 1: big of a deal, and I agree, but people do

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Speaker 1: use it in a way that's like it feels like

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Speaker 1: it's sort of custom design sometimes for harassment. But a

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Speaker 1: part of that sort of sequence of events that we're

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Speaker 1: talking about, which the chili thing, and I don't know

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Speaker 1: the whole details of the chili thing. The poor the

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Speaker 1: poor woman that made the chili and has it into

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Speaker 1: even talk about her because she doesn't want any more attention.

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Speaker 1: This woman deactivated her account like she's been through such

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Speaker 1: a nightmare experience herself. She just made the chili for

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Speaker 1: her neighbors. She doesn't deserve any of this. This woman

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Speaker 1: literally like went out of her way to do a

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Speaker 1: nice thing and is being harassed by terrible people that

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Speaker 1: I think I inadvertently defended by just being like no harassment.

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Speaker 1: Like I just I'm always very wary when I see pylons,

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Speaker 1: you know, But so I'm actually looking the first thing

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Speaker 1: that came up, and now it's like a little bit older.

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Speaker 1: There's new tweets at replace that like Glenn Greenwalt is

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Speaker 1: tweeting about you or something because he's obsessed with you.

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Speaker 1: Oh never searched Taylor Lorenz on Twitter. Here's a tweet

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Speaker 1: about you. It is screenshotting a tweet. I believe it's

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Speaker 1: about the chili. I mean, you say, I said from

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Speaker 1: the start, the woman who made the chili, blah blah blah.

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Speaker 1: Then there's a person who says, well, chinche and I

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Speaker 1: don't know who that is, but is that maybe the

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Speaker 1: person who made the chili? I'm not sure. Had to

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Speaker 1: deactivate again as a direct result of Taylor her heads

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Speaker 1: talking out of her fucking ass about chili discourse. But

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Speaker 1: I guess that's fine because she has quote always been

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Speaker 1: on her side for real. Go fund yourself, Taylor, this

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Speaker 1: is a tweet. I know you don't even My whole

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Speaker 1: d M have been horrible. I'm getting hate mail. People

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Speaker 1: have tweeted me screenshots of personal details already. I mean,

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Speaker 1: this is just I'm getting another wave of harassment. So yes,

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Speaker 1: I wish I could deactivate. I mean I can't do that.

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Speaker 1: You could. If you can't, what would happen if you

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Speaker 1: were just like I'm deactivating, Then they win. They did

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Speaker 1: that and then Fox News called and know then then

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Speaker 1: it becomes a story. You are a huge target, like

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Speaker 1: Tucker Carlson constantly talks about you, right, he's obsessed with you.

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Speaker 1: I think we can say, um, you're a big target

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Speaker 1: for obviously right wing people because well you're a journalist

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Speaker 1: first off, and they hate that. Actually it's interesting, but

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Speaker 1: there's a whole genre of internet journalism which is like

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Speaker 1: applying basically the real journalistic sort of tactics that anybody

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Speaker 1: in media would use for any kind of story to

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Speaker 1: like a space that where they kind of don't know

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Speaker 1: that journalism exists a lot of the time. This is

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Speaker 1: what I see happening. It's like you'll write a story

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Speaker 1: and you'll, you know, name him the person who runs

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Speaker 1: some account, right, like I think, maybe did you do

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Speaker 1: a lips of TikTok thing it was something like this.

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Speaker 1: Of course, I I've found the woman behind it and

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Speaker 1: wrote about it. Lips of TikTok is an account that

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Speaker 1: harasses people basically like on Twitter and maybe also TikTok

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Speaker 1: I don't know, and you like, name to the person

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Speaker 1: is and people who don't know how journalism works and

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Speaker 1: don't know that like when you put yourself in the

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Speaker 1: public eye. You have absolutely there's really zero chance that

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Speaker 1: you should expect to not have your name out there.

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Speaker 1: Like if you're an actor and you're using a fake name,

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Speaker 1: someone's going to figure out what your real name is eventually,

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Speaker 1: because that's just how it works. And and they get

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Speaker 1: they're really mad because they're like, this is wrong. You're

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Speaker 1: like docks saying this person. But but you're just doing

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Speaker 1: like normal journalism, and people lose their ship and so

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Speaker 1: so like right when people get really upset about that,

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Speaker 1: Tucker Carlson gets really upset about it, and you're now

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Speaker 1: like a character, right like, and I don't know how

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Speaker 1: what this is like for you, but you're like a

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Speaker 1: character the people. Yes, oh my god, Now you made

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Speaker 1: me search myself often. I never searched myself because it's terrifying.

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Speaker 1: Like the top tweet is like Taylor Lawrenz is an irresponsible,

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Speaker 1: spoiled little ship that will defend libs of TikTok what

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Speaker 1: and then only someone I mean, these people, these like

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Speaker 1: you said, I'm just a character to them. I don't

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Speaker 1: have humanity. I mean, this is a problem with the internet.

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Speaker 1: And this is exactly what I was trying to say

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Speaker 1: with my original tweet, like although obviously it was defending

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Speaker 1: the wrong people, but it's like people just don't they

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Speaker 1: don't have any empathy for anyone, and they just they

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Speaker 1: flatten people down into characters in their little online world.

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Speaker 1: And it's well, I mean, this is so, this is

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Speaker 1: the thing that I find like unbelievable. I've had a

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Speaker 1: couple of moments on the Internet when people have piled

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Speaker 1: on me for a variety of reasons, some warranted, mostly

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Speaker 1: not warranted. But you're like, I mean, people are like

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Speaker 1: seriously badly harassing you online all day, like all day

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Speaker 1: every day, Like they're like, oh, okay, we can need

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Speaker 1: to pull somebody off the shell for harassment, Like there's

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Speaker 1: Taylor Lorenz. I have no idea what it's like. It

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Speaker 1: must be completely insane most of the time. But to

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Speaker 1: your point about empathy, don't you feel like we've just

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Speaker 1: designed a lot of systems that are like essentially big

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Speaker 1: comment threads, like the old school comment threads from the

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Speaker 1: original Internet that we you know, know and love and

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Speaker 1: that really like discourse on Twitter essentially amounts to this

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Speaker 1: sort of anonymous one notmanship of a comment thread, which

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Speaker 1: feels like generally unhealthy discourse. Right, you don't have to

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Speaker 1: agree with that, but I totally agree. And so do

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Speaker 1: you believe there's a type of social network that can

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Speaker 1: exist that doesn't end up like this? I mean, because

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Speaker 1: you've seen the worst of it? Is there a version

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Speaker 1: of this? Do you think that where it isn't like this? Yes? No,

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Speaker 1: God no, TikTok is ten times worse. Okay, I'm gonna

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Speaker 1: get into that in a second, But let me hear

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Speaker 1: your thoughts. You mean, I guess I'm such a optimist

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Speaker 1: about technology. I just I mean, yes, it's horrible, and

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Speaker 1: I think I've experienced the worst of it, which is

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Speaker 1: why I feel so badly for inadvertently defending some terrible

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Speaker 1: person that's harassing this lady that made Julie. I think

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Speaker 1: you're right that the tools that we have now are broken.

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Speaker 1: Twitter is fundamentally, you know, not a great tool set

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Speaker 1: to communicate. But I do think that there's value in

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Speaker 1: sort of connecting people at scale in certain ways and

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Speaker 1: allowing people to build community. And I don't think that

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Speaker 1: like these platforms are irredeemable. I think they're run by

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Speaker 1: sociopaths that don't care about these things. But like, you know,

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Speaker 1: it's it's not that we couldn't take this and build

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Speaker 1: a better system, and I guess that's what the goal

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Speaker 1: is of MASSED and on. It's just it's I think

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Speaker 1: it's not consumer friendly enough, right, Well, I agree with that.

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Speaker 1: I mean, the problem with this stuff is like the

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Speaker 1: balance between making it easy for everybody and making it

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Speaker 1: not unhealthy is like they're sometimes kind of at odds, right, Like,

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Speaker 1: it's kind of the easier you make things, the less

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Speaker 1: barrier to entry there is, the more quickly you ramp

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Speaker 1: up on people sort of abusing it. But it's amazing

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Speaker 1: to me that you can go through this stuff and

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Speaker 1: you know, and not just be totally demoralized and go

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Speaker 1: like I'm going to quit this right Like, I mean, look,

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Speaker 1: it's bad online for women generally, it's bad online for

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Speaker 1: reporters generally. But I feel like you experienced harassment at

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Speaker 1: a completely different level. I mean, I've definitely experienced the

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Speaker 1: worst of the worst of the worst and literally like

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Speaker 1: living it like you said, I mean every day and

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Speaker 1: today my bad because I really defended a really shitty person,

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Speaker 1: but never normally, you know whatever. I mean, the Glenn

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Speaker 1: Greenwald stuff today I don't even know what charge he made.

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Speaker 1: I just saw that Glenn Greenwald made like a crazy

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Speaker 1: board or whatever, like I don't know what you call it.

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Speaker 1: It's like the thing in a show when somebody's got

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Speaker 1: like the always sunny and they always funny in Philadelphia board.

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Speaker 1: It's weird because Glenn Greenwald used to be a kind

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Speaker 1: of amazing journalist. It's funny. It's like, you know, I've

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Speaker 1: seen the greatest minds of my generation where it's like

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Speaker 1: Matt Taibi, who is like now working for Elon Mosk

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Speaker 1: doing you know, the Twitter file or whatever, used to

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Speaker 1: be like a guy I see on like Bill Mahtin,

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Speaker 1: Bill Maher used to be kind of cool and like

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Speaker 1: looks like I'd see him go on the show and

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Speaker 1: I'd be like, woll, I'm not tas an awesome journalist.

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Speaker 1: And now it's just like weird and embarrassing. But anyhow,

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Speaker 1: Glenn Greenwall was obsessed with you. Yeah, I mean, I

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Speaker 1: just think Tucker and Glenn and all these people just

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Speaker 1: like you're mentioning. They take people, they make them into

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Speaker 1: avatars for everything that they want to rant against, and

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Speaker 1: then they you know, attack people for it. And I

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Speaker 1: just I think having been through that and living in it,

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Speaker 1: I just like when I see pylons on viral tweets,

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Speaker 1: like it just it makes my skin crawl and I'm like, no,

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Speaker 1: like wait a minute, everyone, like just relax, right, I mean,

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Speaker 1: you have a seat where you're kind of like, having

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Speaker 1: experience it, You're probably a little bit more sympathetic to

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Speaker 1: the person who's at the end of the pylon, right,

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Speaker 1: I mean, because you've been there. But sometimes those are

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Speaker 1: terrible people. I guess, which is like talks all the

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Speaker 1: way down. I think, yeah, yeah, Okay. Now, TikTok is

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Speaker 1: a social media platform that I have, you know, some

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Speaker 1: experience with. I am not a TikTok user. I actually

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Speaker 1: I kind of like try to avoid it, to be honest,

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Speaker 1: because I find what it does to be um, you know,

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Speaker 1: it's like candy. There's something about it that feels unhealthy

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Speaker 1: when I'm using it, like particularly unhealthy. You're seeing TikTok

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Speaker 1: is way worse than Twitter. You just said something to

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Speaker 1: that effect. Can you talk about like what is going

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Speaker 1: on with TikTok because I don't have a lot of awareness,

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Speaker 1: but it is not the stepping stone to a better

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Speaker 1: future for social media. Is that what you're saying. No,

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Speaker 1: TikTok is not the stepping stone. I mean I always

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Speaker 1: describe it as like you basically just took Twitter and

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Speaker 1: you combined it with YouTube drama and commentary channel culture,

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Speaker 1: and you meshed it together, and that's what we have.

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Speaker 1: So if you think quote tweets are bad, wait until

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Speaker 1: you get stitched. You know, explain for the novice TikTok user,

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Speaker 1: what is stitching. Yeah, it's basically like the TikTok version

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Speaker 1: of a quote tweet, where you kind of grab a

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Speaker 1: clip from someone's video and then you can make a

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Speaker 1: reaction to that. Right. I've seen people doing this where

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Speaker 1: they're sort of like responding to the things that the

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Speaker 1: person says in the video. Yeah, it's a lot more effort, though,

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Speaker 1: don't you think like it's like you have to like

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Speaker 1: think of production value. Oh god no, I mean trolls

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Speaker 1: on there don't care. They just get on and start

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Speaker 1: ranting about you, and they'll quote tweet anything. They'll take

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Speaker 1: a sentence that you set out of context. And and

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Speaker 1: the thing is to like, as you know, there's no

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Speaker 1: mercy for anyone online. There's no forgiveness, there's no damn

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Speaker 1: I fucked up. Sorry about that. It's like you must

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Speaker 1: pay and we will not be happy until you run

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Speaker 1: yourself off the internet, which is very Keywie Farms. You know,

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Speaker 1: like there's group think, right, and the crowds of people

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Speaker 1: will often follow, you know, whoever is the loudest voice

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Speaker 1: or whatever, and you end up with a mob. You know,

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Speaker 1: the feeling of wanting to participate in that and like

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Speaker 1: to grab a pitchfork and like whatever. March up the

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Speaker 1: hill does not do anything for me, but for a

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Speaker 1: lot of people, it's really satisfying, right to like have

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Speaker 1: that moment of I don't know, I actually don't know

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Speaker 1: what it is like as a person who has been

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Speaker 1: on the receiving end of it, Like is it is

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Speaker 1: it hate? Is it envy? Like it's pure, it's it's hate,

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Speaker 1: it's envy, it's anger, it's everything. I mean, I'm just

403
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Speaker 1: literally just looked at my Twitter applies in this person

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Speaker 1: with you know, almost thirty followers is yelling at me,

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Speaker 1: and you know, I think it's, like you said, it

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Speaker 1: is based human nature. I guess it's like it's like

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Speaker 1: this this like mob justice mentality, um, and I just

408
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Speaker 1: think it's toxic to feed into that in any form,

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Speaker 1: and yet you have to keep dipping back into these

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Speaker 1: waters because you do it for like a living, Like

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Speaker 1: you cover this for a living, right, I mean there

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Speaker 1: is this weird thing that's happening where you're reporting on

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Speaker 1: the thing and then you're in the thing, right yeah,

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Speaker 1: which which seems almost like, I don't know, you don't

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Speaker 1: ever just think about quitting, like they couldn't even talk

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Speaker 1: to you if you weren't there. Well, sure, but no,

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Speaker 1: because I guess, I mean, I just think about what

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Speaker 1: my life was like before the Internet, and I never ever, ever,

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Speaker 1: ever would want to go back to that. I mean,

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Speaker 1: that's worse than anything that I deal with today, in

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Speaker 1: my opinion. Yes, I mean I can't imagine it so bad?

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Speaker 1: Was your life before the internet was bad? Yeah? I

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Speaker 1: was miserable. I mean I was deeply, deeply, deeply depressed.

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Speaker 1: Like I can't I that would be the worst thing

425
00:22:33,560 --> 00:22:36,879
Speaker 1: to go back to no Internet. I just I don't know.

426
00:22:36,960 --> 00:22:39,920
Speaker 1: I mean, it's bad now, but I think what what's

427
00:22:39,960 --> 00:22:43,600
Speaker 1: better is there's also all of this positive that comes

428
00:22:43,640 --> 00:22:45,680
Speaker 1: with it. Right, You're not only getting the bad every day,

429
00:22:45,680 --> 00:22:48,240
Speaker 1: You're getting a lot of good. And I think It's

430
00:22:48,280 --> 00:22:50,239
Speaker 1: like I don't want to give up that good no

431
00:22:50,280 --> 00:22:54,040
Speaker 1: matter how much bad comes with it. For now. I mean,

432
00:22:54,119 --> 00:22:56,440
Speaker 1: to hear that from you is like kind of amazing.

433
00:22:56,520 --> 00:22:59,399
Speaker 1: I think about Elon Musk as such a strange like

434
00:22:59,480 --> 00:23:02,479
Speaker 1: I can't understand it because he's like the richest man

435
00:23:02,480 --> 00:23:04,840
Speaker 1: in the world or used to be before he bought Twitter.

436
00:23:05,280 --> 00:23:07,840
Speaker 1: And if I were the richest man in the world

437
00:23:08,160 --> 00:23:09,520
Speaker 1: and I was like, I'm going to go to Mars

438
00:23:09,560 --> 00:23:11,600
Speaker 1: and I'm gonna make electric cars or whatever, I would

439
00:23:11,640 --> 00:23:15,199
Speaker 1: never tweet, like I would not go online. Well, like,

440
00:23:15,320 --> 00:23:18,560
Speaker 1: why would you go online? You know it was a billionaire, Josh,

441
00:23:18,560 --> 00:23:21,479
Speaker 1: I wouldn't be online. To be clear, I'd be okay,

442
00:23:21,560 --> 00:23:25,440
Speaker 1: right right. I'm not saying that you have the luxury,

443
00:23:25,480 --> 00:23:27,600
Speaker 1: but I do find it interesting. Like I mean, is

444
00:23:27,600 --> 00:23:30,000
Speaker 1: there no version of this where you don't ever look

445
00:23:30,000 --> 00:23:32,000
Speaker 1: at Twitter? And you're not looking This is exactly what

446
00:23:32,080 --> 00:23:34,920
Speaker 1: got me into trouble today, Josh, is that I didn't

447
00:23:34,960 --> 00:23:37,480
Speaker 1: pay attention. I I honestly, I didn't go that deep

448
00:23:37,520 --> 00:23:39,800
Speaker 1: into the chili discourse, and had I gone that deep,

449
00:23:39,840 --> 00:23:41,760
Speaker 1: I wouldn't be getting all this bad lash. It's like,

450
00:23:41,840 --> 00:23:46,080
Speaker 1: if I don't know every single niche drama niche nuanced

451
00:23:46,080 --> 00:23:48,960
Speaker 1: that I get crucified for not knowing and and it

452
00:23:49,119 --> 00:23:52,160
Speaker 1: is on me to know. But the chili discourse, which

453
00:23:52,720 --> 00:23:55,760
Speaker 1: incredible that we're even talking about the chili dis We

454
00:23:55,800 --> 00:23:58,639
Speaker 1: need to stop because I don't want people bothering this woman. Well,

455
00:23:58,760 --> 00:24:00,879
Speaker 1: you've already like stepped in it, so I think it's okay.

456
00:24:00,880 --> 00:24:02,320
Speaker 1: You know, this is like maybe if people listen to this,

457
00:24:02,320 --> 00:24:04,240
Speaker 1: they'll be like, Okay, she really did feel bad about

458
00:24:04,240 --> 00:24:06,879
Speaker 1: that tweet that she did because she wasn't like hadn't

459
00:24:06,920 --> 00:24:09,520
Speaker 1: read all of the discourse, but like the chili discourse

460
00:24:09,560 --> 00:24:11,639
Speaker 1: does not matter right, like in the world and the

461
00:24:11,680 --> 00:24:14,239
Speaker 1: grand scheme of our lives. Well, yeah, can I just

462
00:24:14,280 --> 00:24:16,480
Speaker 1: push back on that? Is I think that these things

463
00:24:16,560 --> 00:24:19,359
Speaker 1: are actually indicative of important ideas. I mean, that's what

464
00:24:19,400 --> 00:24:21,480
Speaker 1: I liked about Rebecca Jennings piece, which is what made

465
00:24:21,480 --> 00:24:24,520
Speaker 1: me weigh into all of this to begin with. I

466
00:24:24,600 --> 00:24:28,399
Speaker 1: do think that to write about technology from the user side,

467
00:24:28,400 --> 00:24:30,919
Speaker 1: which is what I do, you have to be a

468
00:24:31,000 --> 00:24:34,080
Speaker 1: user yourself. Like I mean so much, so much of

469
00:24:34,080 --> 00:24:37,919
Speaker 1: what I've been through has really deeply informed my reporting.

470
00:24:38,160 --> 00:24:42,639
Speaker 1: And also people know that they can trust me because

471
00:24:42,760 --> 00:24:47,640
Speaker 1: I understand things um in that way. Yeah, But I mean,

472
00:24:48,359 --> 00:24:50,720
Speaker 1: do you do you think the chili discourse is important?

473
00:24:51,560 --> 00:24:54,040
Speaker 1: I think that we're reaching a point where these dog

474
00:24:54,080 --> 00:24:57,800
Speaker 1: piles are getting pretty frequent, and I think that we

475
00:24:57,880 --> 00:25:00,399
Speaker 1: should have a conversation about whether they're productive or I

476
00:25:00,400 --> 00:25:02,880
Speaker 1: personally think they're not productive. I don't think that this

477
00:25:02,960 --> 00:25:06,440
Speaker 1: woman should be dog piled right for making chili. Well,

478
00:25:06,480 --> 00:25:09,800
Speaker 1: like Rebecca Jenens, who's an amazing reporter reporting on like

479
00:25:09,920 --> 00:25:14,360
Speaker 1: the culture of the Internet, she actually references another one

480
00:25:14,400 --> 00:25:16,800
Speaker 1: of these sort of dog piles, which is about this

481
00:25:16,840 --> 00:25:19,200
Speaker 1: woman who tweeted that her and her husband like sit

482
00:25:19,240 --> 00:25:21,439
Speaker 1: out in their garden and have coffee and talk and

483
00:25:21,480 --> 00:25:24,320
Speaker 1: she loves it, and then people were like, fuck you,

484
00:25:24,480 --> 00:25:28,400
Speaker 1: how dare you say you enjoy having coffee with your husband.

485
00:25:28,880 --> 00:25:32,639
Speaker 1: What Rebecca very aptly points out, which is exactly mean.

486
00:25:32,680 --> 00:25:34,600
Speaker 1: Rebecca makes the point I like linked her Be's a

487
00:25:34,640 --> 00:25:36,320
Speaker 1: hundred times because I'm like Rebecca me at this point

488
00:25:36,320 --> 00:25:38,679
Speaker 1: better than me. But what she points out is that

489
00:25:38,720 --> 00:25:41,800
Speaker 1: like that there was only a couple of those replies,

490
00:25:42,640 --> 00:25:46,280
Speaker 1: but people go searching for those replies to get outraged

491
00:25:46,320 --> 00:25:50,040
Speaker 1: about and then make content about, like can you believe right.

492
00:25:50,440 --> 00:25:52,440
Speaker 1: I mean, I don't know if you remember the SNL character,

493
00:25:52,560 --> 00:25:55,600
Speaker 1: the Debbie Downer character, but we live in a kind

494
00:25:55,640 --> 00:25:58,720
Speaker 1: of like sea of Debbie Downers. Like it is kind

495
00:25:58,720 --> 00:26:03,160
Speaker 1: of like I mean, but like Josh, like those people

496
00:26:03,200 --> 00:26:05,919
Speaker 1: are often getting bullied. Those people are clearly miserable, like

497
00:26:05,960 --> 00:26:09,720
Speaker 1: clearly sure, yes, people who are mean to other people

498
00:26:09,720 --> 00:26:12,360
Speaker 1: are often bullied. They're not necessarily mean to people. They're

499
00:26:12,400 --> 00:26:14,440
Speaker 1: not even being mean. A lot of times they're just like, hey,

500
00:26:14,480 --> 00:26:17,560
Speaker 1: can you consider X Y Z? Is that inappropriate? Sure?

501
00:26:17,840 --> 00:26:21,159
Speaker 1: Kind of it's it is crazy now, it is crazy.

502
00:26:21,280 --> 00:26:23,720
Speaker 1: You're like, I enjoyed this movie. And then someone's like,

503
00:26:23,760 --> 00:26:25,719
Speaker 1: you're a fucking idiot for like in that movie, I

504
00:26:25,720 --> 00:26:27,800
Speaker 1: hate you. I hope you die. Not with these people

505
00:26:27,800 --> 00:26:30,760
Speaker 1: are saying no, they're not okay, but they are saying

506
00:26:30,800 --> 00:26:33,560
Speaker 1: stuff like someone's like, okay, I love to sit with

507
00:26:33,600 --> 00:26:36,760
Speaker 1: my husband drink coffee, which is totally innocuous, Like that's

508
00:26:36,760 --> 00:26:38,640
Speaker 1: great if you like to do that. I think that's wonderful.

509
00:26:38,800 --> 00:26:41,600
Speaker 1: And people's responses are like, oh, that's nice for you.

510
00:26:41,640 --> 00:26:43,520
Speaker 1: While I have to work like three shifts at my

511
00:26:43,600 --> 00:26:45,240
Speaker 1: job and do X, Y and Z, and like I'm

512
00:26:45,240 --> 00:26:48,280
Speaker 1: glad you're enjoying your life, and it's like sure, like

513
00:26:48,480 --> 00:26:51,840
Speaker 1: everybody's life is different, and like you definitely can feel

514
00:26:51,840 --> 00:26:53,359
Speaker 1: shitty that you don't get to like sit in the

515
00:26:53,400 --> 00:26:56,040
Speaker 1: garden with your husband, which honestly the whole thing sense.

516
00:26:56,160 --> 00:26:58,480
Speaker 1: You know, it's really fucked up, Josh. But you know

517
00:26:58,480 --> 00:27:01,800
Speaker 1: what's really started RUP is that people then screenshot that

518
00:27:01,920 --> 00:27:05,679
Speaker 1: reply from that random, miserable, you know, person that's clearly

519
00:27:05,720 --> 00:27:09,520
Speaker 1: a sad place, and then tens of thousands of people

520
00:27:10,160 --> 00:27:13,240
Speaker 1: will docs and harass that person for weeks. That's what

521
00:27:15,160 --> 00:27:19,199
Speaker 1: It's all very unhealthy. What the whole the whole system

522
00:27:19,240 --> 00:27:21,960
Speaker 1: is very unhealthy. Like I actually feel like we have

523
00:27:22,240 --> 00:27:25,399
Speaker 1: discovered areas of the Internet that are not great in

524
00:27:25,560 --> 00:27:28,880
Speaker 1: areas of humanity, that make no sense for us, Like like,

525
00:27:29,040 --> 00:27:31,200
Speaker 1: here's the deal the woman who loves to sit outside

526
00:27:31,240 --> 00:27:33,760
Speaker 1: with her husband and drink coffee or whatever, Like I

527
00:27:33,800 --> 00:27:36,520
Speaker 1: don't know who the message was for. I mean, did

528
00:27:36,560 --> 00:27:38,399
Speaker 1: I need to ever hear it? I'm not sure that

529
00:27:38,400 --> 00:27:39,800
Speaker 1: that's the case. Did you need to hear it? I

530
00:27:39,800 --> 00:27:41,680
Speaker 1: don't know if that's the case. The people who are

531
00:27:41,680 --> 00:27:43,639
Speaker 1: agitated by it because they don't have the same kind

532
00:27:43,640 --> 00:27:45,879
Speaker 1: of luxury in life. Did they need to hear it?

533
00:27:45,920 --> 00:27:47,520
Speaker 1: I'm not sure that's the case. And then on the

534
00:27:47,560 --> 00:27:50,040
Speaker 1: flip side of it is like, did we need to

535
00:27:50,080 --> 00:27:54,600
Speaker 1: hear their agitation? With the first thing, It's like we're

536
00:27:54,600 --> 00:27:58,040
Speaker 1: not supposed to think out loud all the time, right

537
00:27:58,119 --> 00:28:00,680
Speaker 1: to large groups of people. And so I think there's

538
00:28:00,680 --> 00:28:04,640
Speaker 1: this like fundamental damage that's been done to us as

539
00:28:04,680 --> 00:28:08,359
Speaker 1: as human beings that we think a natural order of

540
00:28:08,400 --> 00:28:11,440
Speaker 1: things is that when you think something anything, you say

541
00:28:11,440 --> 00:28:14,280
Speaker 1: it to this larger group of people as possible, and

542
00:28:14,320 --> 00:28:16,159
Speaker 1: then you wait for the replies to roll it. Like

543
00:28:16,640 --> 00:28:21,840
Speaker 1: there's no historical precedent for anything like that for humans, right,

544
00:28:21,960 --> 00:28:25,720
Speaker 1: Like I think we're emotionally and mentally falling apart because

545
00:28:25,720 --> 00:28:27,360
Speaker 1: of it. And I say this, by the way, as

546
00:28:27,440 --> 00:28:29,439
Speaker 1: I could not be a bigger fan of the Internet,

547
00:28:29,440 --> 00:28:31,800
Speaker 1: you will have met no person who was more of

548
00:28:31,840 --> 00:28:34,040
Speaker 1: a proponent of the internet would be like in the

549
00:28:34,040 --> 00:28:36,399
Speaker 1: earliest days or even in the later stages of it,

550
00:28:36,520 --> 00:28:38,600
Speaker 1: even like I mean, I wrote this thing about the

551
00:28:38,640 --> 00:28:40,760
Speaker 1: Internet at the beginning of the pandemic, like about how

552
00:28:40,800 --> 00:28:43,160
Speaker 1: great the Internet is because think about all of the

553
00:28:43,160 --> 00:28:46,120
Speaker 1: ways it was like useful to us Honestly, the pandemic

554
00:28:46,120 --> 00:28:49,280
Speaker 1: would have been fucking crazy if the Internet didn't exist, Like,

555
00:28:49,280 --> 00:28:51,360
Speaker 1: there are so many things that would have been Obviously

556
00:28:51,360 --> 00:28:53,880
Speaker 1: it was crazy for all sorts of reasons. But I mean,

557
00:28:53,880 --> 00:28:57,719
Speaker 1: the pandemic, the the ongoing pandemic. It's so there are

558
00:28:57,760 --> 00:29:00,880
Speaker 1: still good things. But I guess my point here is, like,

559
00:29:01,520 --> 00:29:03,360
Speaker 1: I think it's interesting that you have a ton of

560
00:29:03,400 --> 00:29:06,160
Speaker 1: empathy for the person who is like the shitty person

561
00:29:06,200 --> 00:29:10,000
Speaker 1: in the exchange or like the other shitty person, for

562
00:29:10,160 --> 00:29:14,000
Speaker 1: both sides of it, because I think because I've been

563
00:29:14,040 --> 00:29:16,720
Speaker 1: through it so many times and I just know how

564
00:29:16,760 --> 00:29:20,960
Speaker 1: these pylons go, that I just again, it's just and

565
00:29:21,000 --> 00:29:24,000
Speaker 1: I'm probably maybe I'm too brain poisoned in in that

566
00:29:24,040 --> 00:29:26,600
Speaker 1: way now where I have empathy for the trolls. Clearly,

567
00:29:26,640 --> 00:29:29,560
Speaker 1: I'm clearly I'm like empathizing with some monster this morning.

568
00:29:29,600 --> 00:29:31,720
Speaker 1: And but I agree with you, Josh. I mean, I

569
00:29:31,720 --> 00:29:34,320
Speaker 1: think context collapse is a huge problem on Twitter. And

570
00:29:34,600 --> 00:29:36,680
Speaker 1: one thing that I've always said, although these people love

571
00:29:36,760 --> 00:29:39,320
Speaker 1: to claim that I want, you know, censorship and stuff,

572
00:29:39,360 --> 00:29:42,400
Speaker 1: no that's not true. I mean what I want, and

573
00:29:42,440 --> 00:29:44,719
Speaker 1: I've always said, is like the ability to segment our

574
00:29:44,720 --> 00:29:47,720
Speaker 1: audiences more. I mean, so much of this is that

575
00:29:47,800 --> 00:29:51,200
Speaker 1: context collapse, like who are you posting that? More? Probably

576
00:29:51,240 --> 00:29:54,920
Speaker 1: just your little following, right or maybe you know you

577
00:29:54,960 --> 00:29:57,520
Speaker 1: don't need it or mean for it to even be

578
00:29:57,560 --> 00:29:59,760
Speaker 1: sucked into that. But the way the networks are designed

579
00:29:59,840 --> 00:30:04,720
Speaker 1: is you want maximum audiens, right, like like wait, listen

580
00:30:04,760 --> 00:30:06,880
Speaker 1: you're on? I said, I was talking to Casey last

581
00:30:06,880 --> 00:30:09,800
Speaker 1: week on masteredon, which you're like, I don't even like masteredon.

582
00:30:09,920 --> 00:30:13,240
Speaker 1: You have like sixty thousand or maybe more now, like followers,

583
00:30:13,240 --> 00:30:15,680
Speaker 1: which is a ton. I haven't seen very many people

584
00:30:15,760 --> 00:30:18,520
Speaker 1: on mastadon with and like hardly any followers, and it

585
00:30:18,640 --> 00:30:21,360
Speaker 1: clearly is it works in a different way, like getting

586
00:30:21,440 --> 00:30:24,440
Speaker 1: followers is different than on Twitter, but like you have

587
00:30:24,520 --> 00:30:26,200
Speaker 1: a big following there, you wouldn't want to just be

588
00:30:26,200 --> 00:30:28,600
Speaker 1: followed by like ten people that you're close friends, right,

589
00:30:28,640 --> 00:30:31,560
Speaker 1: Like that doesn't make any sense almost now, I just like,

590
00:30:31,680 --> 00:30:34,040
Speaker 1: oh my god, what the funk? Who are these people?

591
00:30:34,440 --> 00:30:38,400
Speaker 1: How are you getting eighty thou followers? Oh my god, no,

592
00:30:38,720 --> 00:30:41,000
Speaker 1: you do. It's incredible. There's things that I really like

593
00:30:41,040 --> 00:30:44,000
Speaker 1: about masteredon. I think the norms are different on there,

594
00:30:44,520 --> 00:30:47,760
Speaker 1: and people have more space to express themselves like Twitter

595
00:30:48,480 --> 00:30:50,080
Speaker 1: is bad. And also now we have a CEO of

596
00:30:50,120 --> 00:30:53,400
Speaker 1: setting a terrible example himself, So I don't think it's

597
00:30:53,440 --> 00:30:56,240
Speaker 1: gonna necessarily get better. I have to get I've got

598
00:30:56,240 --> 00:30:57,880
Speaker 1: to get rid of my Tesla that I at least

599
00:30:57,960 --> 00:31:00,800
Speaker 1: because embarrassed to drive it. You have a Tesla, Well,

600
00:31:00,800 --> 00:31:02,440
Speaker 1: this is the funny thing, is like, when I've got

601
00:31:02,480 --> 00:31:05,200
Speaker 1: the Tesla, I was like, Elon Musk is like, you know,

602
00:31:05,240 --> 00:31:06,760
Speaker 1: he's kind of got a little rough round the edge,

603
00:31:06,800 --> 00:31:08,200
Speaker 1: but it seems like a pretty interesting guy in this

604
00:31:08,280 --> 00:31:10,360
Speaker 1: car seems pretty great, Like there weren't a lot of

605
00:31:10,440 --> 00:31:12,080
Speaker 1: options for electric cars, and I didn't want to get

606
00:31:12,080 --> 00:31:14,360
Speaker 1: another gas car. And now when I drive it, I

607
00:31:14,400 --> 00:31:17,240
Speaker 1: feel like, I mean, my car has been spit on

608
00:31:17,320 --> 00:31:20,360
Speaker 1: by people while I'm driving for the record, Like my

609
00:31:20,440 --> 00:31:24,320
Speaker 1: car got spit on by a guy randomly the other day. Uh,

610
00:31:24,360 --> 00:31:26,640
Speaker 1: I'm assuming because it's a Tesla. I mean, I don't

611
00:31:26,680 --> 00:31:28,560
Speaker 1: think I was driving in any way that was particularly

612
00:31:28,640 --> 00:31:30,960
Speaker 1: erratic or something. So now I'm like, how do I

613
00:31:30,960 --> 00:31:34,120
Speaker 1: get rid of this? But like you know, Elon Musk,

614
00:31:34,160 --> 00:31:36,280
Speaker 1: I would love for him to concentrate on the Teslast.

615
00:31:36,280 --> 00:31:38,760
Speaker 1: I don't know why he's interested in Twitter it doesn't

616
00:31:38,800 --> 00:31:41,360
Speaker 1: make any sense to me, Like I am, I am

617
00:31:41,480 --> 00:31:45,000
Speaker 1: so perplexed as to again, this is what I'm saying

618
00:31:45,000 --> 00:31:49,360
Speaker 1: about the billionaire, Like you could do anything. Why are

619
00:31:49,400 --> 00:31:52,800
Speaker 1: you down here with us in this like garbage pile?

620
00:31:53,200 --> 00:31:55,560
Speaker 1: You know, Like I had to use Twitter because I

621
00:31:55,600 --> 00:31:57,840
Speaker 1: was like, I'm a journalist, and we were all on

622
00:31:57,840 --> 00:31:59,600
Speaker 1: Twitter because that's where all the journalists were. And then

623
00:31:59,640 --> 00:32:01,480
Speaker 1: like you've auntually you can find like stories and talk

624
00:32:01,480 --> 00:32:03,640
Speaker 1: to people and do whatever. But it's like he doesn't

625
00:32:03,640 --> 00:32:05,040
Speaker 1: have to be there. He didn't have to buy it.

626
00:32:05,200 --> 00:32:06,920
Speaker 1: I mean, I guess eventually he did have to buy it,

627
00:32:06,960 --> 00:32:09,800
Speaker 1: But I mean, but it's all ego and culture war.

628
00:32:09,840 --> 00:32:24,640
Speaker 1: Stephanie's clearly been red tiled. Literally, by the way, as

629
00:32:24,680 --> 00:32:27,600
Speaker 1: I'm talking to you here, I just saw you just

630
00:32:27,640 --> 00:32:31,400
Speaker 1: retweeted something you retweet live while we're talking. We're just now, Yeah, well,

631
00:32:31,440 --> 00:32:35,760
Speaker 1: I just gotten alert that somebody tagged me, so I retweeted,

632
00:32:36,360 --> 00:32:39,960
Speaker 1: you're so online you can't even take forty minutes for

633
00:32:40,000 --> 00:32:43,160
Speaker 1: a podcast. Okay, I think I know It's fine. I

634
00:32:43,200 --> 00:32:45,040
Speaker 1: don't care. Believe me. I literally you can see both

635
00:32:45,120 --> 00:32:47,320
Speaker 1: my hands now. I just I wanted to support the

636
00:32:47,360 --> 00:32:50,200
Speaker 1: podcast that my friend at me. I like the fact

637
00:32:50,280 --> 00:32:54,640
Speaker 1: that you are authentically being yourself. You're online, You're on

638
00:32:54,680 --> 00:32:57,280
Speaker 1: Twitter right now. Here's the thing, Okay, I want to

639
00:32:57,360 --> 00:32:59,760
Speaker 1: have a couple of questions for you. I want to

640
00:32:59,800 --> 00:33:02,800
Speaker 1: know if you to rank the harassment you've experienced, Like,

641
00:33:02,840 --> 00:33:05,120
Speaker 1: what was the thing that triggered the worst harassment you've

642
00:33:05,160 --> 00:33:08,400
Speaker 1: experienced in your career? Do you have like a top pick?

643
00:33:09,160 --> 00:33:12,880
Speaker 1: Oh god, um, I don't know. I mean, Pautie Pie

644
00:33:13,360 --> 00:33:16,600
Speaker 1: made a video about me like years and years and

645
00:33:16,680 --> 00:33:19,720
Speaker 1: years and really and yeah, he was mad because I

646
00:33:19,760 --> 00:33:23,400
Speaker 1: said something about Mr Beast. I just remembered that because

647
00:33:23,440 --> 00:33:25,640
Speaker 1: that was one of the few times that people really

648
00:33:25,680 --> 00:33:28,479
Speaker 1: started targeting my family and and that that was like

649
00:33:29,200 --> 00:33:32,400
Speaker 1: memorable to me as like a turning point where I

650
00:33:32,480 --> 00:33:34,880
Speaker 1: was like, oh my god, because people would harass me

651
00:33:34,960 --> 00:33:37,560
Speaker 1: before that. And then ever since then, it's just been

652
00:33:37,680 --> 00:33:41,360
Speaker 1: NonStop stuff with my family and friends, really anyone I've

653
00:33:41,360 --> 00:33:44,200
Speaker 1: ever had with on Instagram. Yeah, I mean Pautie Pie is.

654
00:33:44,240 --> 00:33:45,960
Speaker 1: And what's interesting to a put Pie is that I

655
00:33:45,960 --> 00:33:48,840
Speaker 1: think a huge segment of his audience is like young,

656
00:33:49,160 --> 00:33:54,200
Speaker 1: very young people, Like it's pretty popular with teens. I

657
00:33:54,280 --> 00:33:57,120
Speaker 1: have no beef with Pautie Pie. I actually think he's

658
00:33:57,240 --> 00:34:00,680
Speaker 1: he can be very funny his audiences children, as you mentioned,

659
00:34:00,680 --> 00:34:03,720
Speaker 1: And I think that these YouTubers, you know, the Jake

660
00:34:03,800 --> 00:34:06,920
Speaker 1: Paula's also have you know, done a lot of crazy stuff.

661
00:34:06,920 --> 00:34:09,239
Speaker 1: It's like, I don't that kind of harassment doesn't bother

662
00:34:09,320 --> 00:34:12,000
Speaker 1: me because it's children and I can read it and

663
00:34:12,000 --> 00:34:15,080
Speaker 1: just be like, Okay, an eleven year old wrote this message, right,

664
00:34:15,520 --> 00:34:17,680
Speaker 1: Oh god, it makes me feel bad for the eleven

665
00:34:17,719 --> 00:34:20,040
Speaker 1: year old though, Like I get depressed, I mean hearing

666
00:34:20,080 --> 00:34:23,600
Speaker 1: about that. Like I understand, like you know, there's there's

667
00:34:23,600 --> 00:34:26,400
Speaker 1: always some element of this in the world, but it

668
00:34:26,440 --> 00:34:30,120
Speaker 1: does feel like we've just created this system where like

669
00:34:30,160 --> 00:34:33,319
Speaker 1: what is that? I mean, when I started blogging back

670
00:34:33,400 --> 00:34:35,080
Speaker 1: the old taste, when there were no cars and I

671
00:34:35,080 --> 00:34:37,440
Speaker 1: had to walk through several miles of snow to get

672
00:34:37,440 --> 00:34:41,279
Speaker 1: to the blogs. Uh, But when I started blogging, like

673
00:34:42,239 --> 00:34:44,040
Speaker 1: it was very clear to me that there was some

674
00:34:44,120 --> 00:34:47,360
Speaker 1: element on the Internet that, like fanboys is what we

675
00:34:47,400 --> 00:34:49,440
Speaker 1: would have called them, like an end gadget or whatever,

676
00:34:50,080 --> 00:34:54,400
Speaker 1: where they were so into something, they were so driven

677
00:34:54,480 --> 00:34:56,840
Speaker 1: by this love of this thing that it that it

678
00:34:56,920 --> 00:35:00,680
Speaker 1: made them do unusual things, right like unhealthy thing. I

679
00:35:00,680 --> 00:35:02,959
Speaker 1: think I got like something like I made a death

680
00:35:03,000 --> 00:35:06,040
Speaker 1: threat to me because I reviewed a Windows phone or

681
00:35:06,080 --> 00:35:08,480
Speaker 1: something that like I gave it a bad review. This

682
00:35:08,560 --> 00:35:11,040
Speaker 1: is like two thousand eight or something, you know, like

683
00:35:11,160 --> 00:35:12,759
Speaker 1: someone was like, I'm going to come to your house

684
00:35:12,800 --> 00:35:15,560
Speaker 1: and kill you because you don't like this phone or something.

685
00:35:15,560 --> 00:35:19,240
Speaker 1: And I'm like, it's such an extreme and unusual behavior.

686
00:35:19,280 --> 00:35:20,640
Speaker 1: And I don't think they were kidding. I mean, they

687
00:35:20,640 --> 00:35:23,360
Speaker 1: were not serious, but I don't think that their emotion

688
00:35:23,560 --> 00:35:25,640
Speaker 1: was like I'm making a joke. I think they were like,

689
00:35:25,920 --> 00:35:28,640
Speaker 1: I'm really mad at this person. And you cover this

690
00:35:28,640 --> 00:35:31,840
Speaker 1: stuff so much so you see it firsthand. We've created

691
00:35:31,880 --> 00:35:35,759
Speaker 1: it this unhealthy environment. And I guess, like, do you

692
00:35:35,800 --> 00:35:37,920
Speaker 1: ever think about just getting a different job, like as

693
00:35:37,920 --> 00:35:41,320
Speaker 1: it has effort? Like you're very talented, you're very smart,

694
00:35:41,400 --> 00:35:44,000
Speaker 1: you're very accomplished, You've done amazing work in the world

695
00:35:44,040 --> 00:35:46,520
Speaker 1: of journalism. Do you ever think like, I'm just gonna

696
00:35:46,560 --> 00:35:49,520
Speaker 1: fucking get a PR job or something, or like, uh,

697
00:35:49,640 --> 00:35:51,400
Speaker 1: I don't know what would you do? What would the

698
00:35:51,440 --> 00:35:54,360
Speaker 1: next job be if it wasn't journalism. I think about

699
00:35:54,360 --> 00:35:56,440
Speaker 1: that a lot. I Mean, the thing is is I

700
00:35:56,440 --> 00:35:58,719
Speaker 1: feel like the reason I have this job is because

701
00:35:58,760 --> 00:36:01,560
Speaker 1: I want to affect the media, and I care about

702
00:36:02,040 --> 00:36:04,359
Speaker 1: media a lot, and I I feel like when people

703
00:36:04,400 --> 00:36:07,600
Speaker 1: don't understand the Internet, really bad things happen, right, And

704
00:36:07,719 --> 00:36:09,719
Speaker 1: I think we need to understand the world around us.

705
00:36:09,960 --> 00:36:12,720
Speaker 1: My whole goal for a long time was just getting

706
00:36:13,719 --> 00:36:16,200
Speaker 1: people to do to take this beat seriously. I think

707
00:36:16,200 --> 00:36:18,839
Speaker 1: there's so many amazing reporters like you mentioned Rebecca, and

708
00:36:19,040 --> 00:36:20,759
Speaker 1: you know there's others on my beat as well that

709
00:36:20,760 --> 00:36:23,560
Speaker 1: are just like phenomenal reporters. So it's not like I

710
00:36:23,680 --> 00:36:25,879
Speaker 1: quit and the beat dies. But I do think that

711
00:36:26,440 --> 00:36:28,759
Speaker 1: I care a lot about my work. I mean, yeah,

712
00:36:29,000 --> 00:36:33,040
Speaker 1: sometimes I think maybe I'll just go back to doing

713
00:36:33,040 --> 00:36:35,680
Speaker 1: social media strategy. I could definitely make more money, and

714
00:36:35,760 --> 00:36:37,719
Speaker 1: it would be great to pay off some debt. I

715
00:36:37,719 --> 00:36:39,359
Speaker 1: think of all you've learned. I think of all you've

716
00:36:39,440 --> 00:36:42,719
Speaker 1: learned of the last decade or whatever, of of of

717
00:36:42,800 --> 00:36:46,440
Speaker 1: like writing the insane waves, of of of what you've experienced.

718
00:36:46,880 --> 00:36:48,840
Speaker 1: But whatever, we only have one life, you know what

719
00:36:48,840 --> 00:36:50,879
Speaker 1: I mean, You might as well just like do what

720
00:36:50,920 --> 00:36:53,600
Speaker 1: you want and try to affect the world in some

721
00:36:53,680 --> 00:36:56,880
Speaker 1: way or change the world in some way, like I

722
00:36:56,920 --> 00:36:59,359
Speaker 1: want to change the media industry, so I met as

723
00:36:59,400 --> 00:37:01,600
Speaker 1: well work at it. You know, do you have a

724
00:37:01,640 --> 00:37:05,000
Speaker 1: lot of distressing techniques that you because like there have

725
00:37:05,040 --> 00:37:06,440
Speaker 1: been a couple, like I said, a couple of times

726
00:37:06,480 --> 00:37:10,200
Speaker 1: when I've experienced like really directed harassment. But this is

727
00:37:10,280 --> 00:37:12,880
Speaker 1: like it's so overwhelming, Like do you ever disconnect from this?

728
00:37:13,360 --> 00:37:15,480
Speaker 1: Like how do you disconnect from it? I mean, I

729
00:37:15,520 --> 00:37:20,560
Speaker 1: think in was like a bad year for everyone. Um,

730
00:37:20,600 --> 00:37:24,359
Speaker 1: you know, I lost several friends to suicide and it

731
00:37:24,400 --> 00:37:27,919
Speaker 1: was really hard, and like the pandemic you know, kicked off.

732
00:37:27,960 --> 00:37:31,279
Speaker 1: I'm severely immunocompromised, so that's been a nightmare. Like all

733
00:37:31,280 --> 00:37:33,160
Speaker 1: this stuff has been bad. And definitely if you ask

734
00:37:33,239 --> 00:37:36,440
Speaker 1: me in like, I did try to quit my job actually,

735
00:37:36,480 --> 00:37:40,239
Speaker 1: and my editor talked me out of it. But but

736
00:37:40,360 --> 00:37:42,480
Speaker 1: now I'm just like whatever, the worst that's going to

737
00:37:42,600 --> 00:37:44,880
Speaker 1: happen has happened a million times over to me, and

738
00:37:44,920 --> 00:37:50,239
Speaker 1: that is very freeing. So you know why I quit now,

739
00:37:52,880 --> 00:37:54,400
Speaker 1: I mean, I've already been through all that. But to

740
00:37:54,400 --> 00:37:58,040
Speaker 1: answer your question, distress, I mean, yeah, I'm very, very

741
00:37:58,719 --> 00:38:02,000
Speaker 1: very strict about keeping my personal life off the internet.

742
00:38:02,120 --> 00:38:05,799
Speaker 1: So I have a personal life like with friends, and

743
00:38:06,160 --> 00:38:08,120
Speaker 1: I do things in l A and like I it's

744
00:38:08,200 --> 00:38:10,319
Speaker 1: never online and never will be online, and I have

745
00:38:10,440 --> 00:38:15,239
Speaker 1: friends that respect that. You're right, Like your Instagram is

746
00:38:15,280 --> 00:38:17,719
Speaker 1: not like pictures of you and your friends doing stuff, right,

747
00:38:17,760 --> 00:38:20,880
Speaker 1: It's like it's still like just kind of online stuff.

748
00:38:21,040 --> 00:38:23,080
Speaker 1: I mean, maybe you have a secret Instagram. I don't know,

749
00:38:23,200 --> 00:38:26,200
Speaker 1: but it's like I have like thirty Instagrams. People can

750
00:38:26,280 --> 00:38:28,560
Speaker 1: find every one of my instagrams. You won't find any

751
00:38:28,600 --> 00:38:31,239
Speaker 1: of those photos because it's not something that I participate in.

752
00:38:31,320 --> 00:38:33,520
Speaker 1: I don't I don't like the pair of social stuff.

753
00:38:33,560 --> 00:38:35,600
Speaker 1: I don't want people who follow me to develop a

754
00:38:35,640 --> 00:38:39,760
Speaker 1: par of social bond because I think it's unhealthy and

755
00:38:39,840 --> 00:38:42,400
Speaker 1: I just I think having that strict boundary even and

756
00:38:42,680 --> 00:38:44,960
Speaker 1: having a strong sense of self Like ironically, I think

757
00:38:44,960 --> 00:38:48,359
Speaker 1: the people who really helped me deal with managing all

758
00:38:48,400 --> 00:38:50,160
Speaker 1: of this and being in the public eye are people

759
00:38:50,200 --> 00:38:53,680
Speaker 1: that are sort of way more famous and regularly see

760
00:38:53,719 --> 00:38:58,840
Speaker 1: themselves kind of reflected through this like bizarrow world version

761
00:38:58,840 --> 00:39:00,960
Speaker 1: of yourself, like on the Internet or in the media.

762
00:39:01,200 --> 00:39:03,520
Speaker 1: Like that used to be really disorienting and it uster

763
00:39:03,520 --> 00:39:04,920
Speaker 1: really funk with my head and I'd want to get

764
00:39:04,920 --> 00:39:07,400
Speaker 1: online and defend myself and be like, no, that's you

765
00:39:07,440 --> 00:39:11,160
Speaker 1: have it all wrong. And now I kind of, you know,

766
00:39:11,360 --> 00:39:14,200
Speaker 1: I'm at peace with it, and you're just like whatever,

767
00:39:14,280 --> 00:39:15,680
Speaker 1: they're going to think what they're gonna think, and it

768
00:39:15,680 --> 00:39:18,359
Speaker 1: doesn't matter what I say. Yeah, I mean I think

769
00:39:18,480 --> 00:39:20,400
Speaker 1: there you have to take some steps to like manage

770
00:39:20,400 --> 00:39:23,440
Speaker 1: your reputation. But like it doesn't affect me the way

771
00:39:23,440 --> 00:39:25,839
Speaker 1: that it affected me two years ago. Right, Okay, we're

772
00:39:25,840 --> 00:39:27,759
Speaker 1: pretty much at time, but I mean, god, we could

773
00:39:27,760 --> 00:39:29,960
Speaker 1: talk for so much longer, but talking about this stuff,

774
00:39:31,320 --> 00:39:33,759
Speaker 1: I do have one question, Well maybe it's like one

775
00:39:33,880 --> 00:39:36,480
Speaker 1: ish question, Like I feel like one of the things

776
00:39:36,520 --> 00:39:37,880
Speaker 1: you're really really good at, like if we can just

777
00:39:37,880 --> 00:39:39,839
Speaker 1: talk about things that aren't like super unpleasant, like people

778
00:39:39,840 --> 00:39:43,200
Speaker 1: who are asking, you're really good at like seeing trends,

779
00:39:43,280 --> 00:39:45,520
Speaker 1: like trend lines of things that are happening, like and

780
00:39:45,560 --> 00:39:48,719
Speaker 1: I think actually one of your greatest assets as a

781
00:39:48,840 --> 00:39:52,719
Speaker 1: reporter and as a journalist is to look at all

782
00:39:52,760 --> 00:39:54,880
Speaker 1: of this sort of insanity and all of this chaos

783
00:39:55,320 --> 00:39:58,160
Speaker 1: and go, this thing here is important and we need

784
00:39:58,200 --> 00:39:59,640
Speaker 1: to pay attention to it. Or this is a thing

785
00:39:59,640 --> 00:40:03,000
Speaker 1: that's how being good and bad. But it's like influencer culture,

786
00:40:03,040 --> 00:40:06,560
Speaker 1: for instance, like the boom and I say it's the last.

787
00:40:06,600 --> 00:40:09,000
Speaker 1: I mean, I'm gonna we call it five ish years, right,

788
00:40:09,000 --> 00:40:11,200
Speaker 1: I mean, obviously there's YouTube and stuff, but like the

789
00:40:11,280 --> 00:40:14,160
Speaker 1: rise of TikTok and Instagram and this whole sort of

790
00:40:14,200 --> 00:40:18,880
Speaker 1: like economy and culture around influencers which has so many

791
00:40:18,880 --> 00:40:21,879
Speaker 1: ways of being expressed, and you were I feel very

792
00:40:22,000 --> 00:40:25,000
Speaker 1: very early in observing that or in talking about it,

793
00:40:25,200 --> 00:40:26,960
Speaker 1: this is my long window way of getting to an

794
00:40:26,960 --> 00:40:31,280
Speaker 1: actual question what is the next thing? Because influencer culture

795
00:40:31,320 --> 00:40:33,560
Speaker 1: is kind of like weirdly waning or I don't know,

796
00:40:33,600 --> 00:40:37,239
Speaker 1: it's like feels like it's weakened. I think it's I

797
00:40:37,239 --> 00:40:41,760
Speaker 1: think it's just more distributed now, it's more distributed, but

798
00:40:41,760 --> 00:40:46,359
Speaker 1: but undeniably we're moving towards the more fractured and fragmented

799
00:40:46,640 --> 00:40:48,719
Speaker 1: media environment in a lot of ways. Do you see

800
00:40:48,760 --> 00:40:53,200
Speaker 1: anything forming? You know, is it is it some other

801
00:40:54,120 --> 00:40:58,600
Speaker 1: mutation of influencer culture? Yeah? You know, like what is it? Like?

802
00:40:58,640 --> 00:41:01,440
Speaker 1: What is the next thing? What I think is that

803
00:41:01,480 --> 00:41:04,640
Speaker 1: we're at an inflection point. And maybe you feel like

804
00:41:04,680 --> 00:41:10,319
Speaker 1: this too, Like I feel like we obviously, like the

805
00:41:10,480 --> 00:41:13,399
Speaker 1: early were the rise of digital media, and we were

806
00:41:13,400 --> 00:41:15,200
Speaker 1: all so excited about the Internet, and we all had

807
00:41:15,200 --> 00:41:17,080
Speaker 1: these positive feelings and then it all kind of came

808
00:41:17,120 --> 00:41:21,120
Speaker 1: crashing down, you know, and everyone's like, oh, no, disinformation,

809
00:41:21,400 --> 00:41:24,520
Speaker 1: da da da da um. But I also think we're

810
00:41:24,520 --> 00:41:27,520
Speaker 1: all just getting more and more online, and I don't

811
00:41:27,560 --> 00:41:30,080
Speaker 1: think that's gonna change at all. Like I think that

812
00:41:30,160 --> 00:41:33,440
Speaker 1: the Internet. No, you think we're getting more online. You

813
00:41:33,480 --> 00:41:35,680
Speaker 1: feel like that's the trend line. Yeah, I think we're

814
00:41:35,680 --> 00:41:38,600
Speaker 1: gonna have like computers in our brains in like thirty years.

815
00:41:39,000 --> 00:41:42,000
Speaker 1: That's definitely possible. I mean sure, I mean obviously the

816
00:41:42,080 --> 00:41:45,120
Speaker 1: logical progression is like brain implants or something, though I

817
00:41:45,120 --> 00:41:47,759
Speaker 1: think we're pretty far away from that. I if you

818
00:41:47,800 --> 00:41:50,000
Speaker 1: had asked me that, I would say, I feel like

819
00:41:50,040 --> 00:41:53,520
Speaker 1: the trend line is like people are backing away from

820
00:41:53,520 --> 00:41:57,440
Speaker 1: being online and like starting to go like maybe I

821
00:41:57,440 --> 00:42:01,759
Speaker 1: don't actually need this. No, well not to say like no,

822
00:42:02,320 --> 00:42:07,640
Speaker 1: um my prediction. Let me quote tweet you false. Um.

823
00:42:07,719 --> 00:42:10,120
Speaker 1: You're right that people are backing away from these open,

824
00:42:10,239 --> 00:42:13,480
Speaker 1: broadcast based social platforms. I think that the era of

825
00:42:13,560 --> 00:42:17,200
Speaker 1: us posting that we're a brunch to the entire world

826
00:42:17,360 --> 00:42:19,799
Speaker 1: is definitely going away. I mean, I think people are

827
00:42:19,840 --> 00:42:22,759
Speaker 1: retreating into private communities. That's been a trend that's been

828
00:42:22,800 --> 00:42:25,879
Speaker 1: documented for years. Um so I do. I do think

829
00:42:25,880 --> 00:42:28,080
Speaker 1: that's happening. But I don't think that our world is

830
00:42:28,080 --> 00:42:32,040
Speaker 1: getting less networked or you know, things are becoming less online,

831
00:42:32,160 --> 00:42:35,560
Speaker 1: especially post well not we're not post pandemic, but since

832
00:42:35,560 --> 00:42:39,120
Speaker 1: the pandemic started. I think that accelerated so many of

833
00:42:39,120 --> 00:42:41,880
Speaker 1: those shifts. And yeah, there's like a slight retraction with

834
00:42:41,920 --> 00:42:44,759
Speaker 1: some of it, but not really like it pushed us

835
00:42:45,719 --> 00:42:48,760
Speaker 1: forward so many years that even if it's two steps

836
00:42:48,800 --> 00:42:51,799
Speaker 1: forward one step back, like we're still moving that way. Yeah.

837
00:42:51,880 --> 00:42:54,760
Speaker 1: I mean, even like delivery culture, the way it's changed

838
00:42:54,800 --> 00:42:57,920
Speaker 1: in the past three years or four years or whatever

839
00:42:57,960 --> 00:43:00,960
Speaker 1: has been not like just been. I mean, you don't

840
00:43:00,960 --> 00:43:03,480
Speaker 1: even think twice now about like having your groceries delivered,

841
00:43:03,480 --> 00:43:05,479
Speaker 1: where like I think if you go back four years ago,

842
00:43:05,520 --> 00:43:07,520
Speaker 1: most people weren't even thinking about it right, Like they

843
00:43:07,520 --> 00:43:10,279
Speaker 1: would never even consider it. But what's so interesting about

844
00:43:10,360 --> 00:43:13,040
Speaker 1: that is it's like utilities in a way that are

845
00:43:13,160 --> 00:43:17,080
Speaker 1: very online, that are connected to like our phones and

846
00:43:17,160 --> 00:43:20,480
Speaker 1: are you know, laptops or whatever, but are not It's

847
00:43:20,480 --> 00:43:21,799
Speaker 1: not the same thing. I mean to your point about

848
00:43:21,800 --> 00:43:23,680
Speaker 1: people going into these like smaller communities. I think that's

849
00:43:23,680 --> 00:43:28,760
Speaker 1: really interesting, or more personalized communities, and that not again

850
00:43:28,800 --> 00:43:30,640
Speaker 1: not to talk about mascodon, but that is one of

851
00:43:30,640 --> 00:43:32,279
Speaker 1: the things I think is interesting about this idea of

852
00:43:32,280 --> 00:43:35,880
Speaker 1: a decentralized social network. I thought, for sure I wouldn't

853
00:43:35,880 --> 00:43:38,480
Speaker 1: want to get joined another social network, but I do

854
00:43:38,560 --> 00:43:42,920
Speaker 1: think there's something interesting about like downsizing the social sphere.

855
00:43:43,440 --> 00:43:45,080
Speaker 1: And I've talked about this a bunch of this podcast

856
00:43:45,080 --> 00:43:46,640
Speaker 1: because it's on my mind all the time. Where you've

857
00:43:46,640 --> 00:43:49,440
Speaker 1: got like people talking about Twitter being this like town square,

858
00:43:49,600 --> 00:43:53,080
Speaker 1: like Global town Square. It's like, I think people are

859
00:43:53,200 --> 00:43:56,520
Speaker 1: realizing that, like they don't want that, and but there

860
00:43:56,640 --> 00:43:58,719
Speaker 1: is some social connection they want and how do you

861
00:43:58,760 --> 00:44:01,800
Speaker 1: get at it? And I don't know that anybody's figured

862
00:44:01,840 --> 00:44:04,080
Speaker 1: out like the killer app for that yet. You know,

863
00:44:04,160 --> 00:44:07,439
Speaker 1: it's like it is it my message? No, I think,

864
00:44:07,600 --> 00:44:10,279
Speaker 1: I mean, I do think it's things sometimes it's things

865
00:44:10,280 --> 00:44:12,799
Speaker 1: like TikTok that allow for more segmentation, and it's not

866
00:44:12,840 --> 00:44:16,440
Speaker 1: on the there's no burden on the user to define

867
00:44:16,520 --> 00:44:18,879
Speaker 1: their own you know, it's kind of self selecting, like, hey,

868
00:44:18,880 --> 00:44:20,480
Speaker 1: this is content you're interested in, These are people you're

869
00:44:20,480 --> 00:44:23,919
Speaker 1: interested It puts you inherently into these niches and then yeah,

870
00:44:24,000 --> 00:44:26,400
Speaker 1: I mean, and then of course group chats and discord

871
00:44:26,480 --> 00:44:29,560
Speaker 1: and things like that. For sure, I loved Ian Bogos,

872
00:44:29,680 --> 00:44:31,080
Speaker 1: who I used to work with it The Atlantic, wrote

873
00:44:31,080 --> 00:44:33,000
Speaker 1: a great piece about the end of social media. I

874
00:44:33,000 --> 00:44:34,839
Speaker 1: don't know if you read it, but I haven't. But

875
00:44:35,040 --> 00:44:36,960
Speaker 1: I'm a big fan of anybody where that starts with

876
00:44:37,000 --> 00:44:40,200
Speaker 1: the end of blank. I'm always having written some of

877
00:44:40,239 --> 00:44:42,960
Speaker 1: those myself. It's a good it's a good history. He's

878
00:44:43,040 --> 00:44:44,719
Speaker 1: very smart about it all. I agreed with him. I

879
00:44:44,719 --> 00:44:46,439
Speaker 1: wrote a similar piece and I killed my piece because

880
00:44:46,440 --> 00:44:48,239
Speaker 1: I thought he wrote it better than me. Yeah, Like,

881
00:44:48,280 --> 00:44:50,319
Speaker 1: it'd be cool if social media ended. I think that'd

882
00:44:50,320 --> 00:44:52,919
Speaker 1: be great. I agree with you. I think, like these

883
00:44:52,920 --> 00:44:56,799
Speaker 1: big broadcast social platforms are really bad um in a

884
00:44:56,800 --> 00:45:01,160
Speaker 1: lot of ways, and I think they should not function

885
00:45:01,200 --> 00:45:03,279
Speaker 1: the way that they function now for sure, But they're

886
00:45:03,360 --> 00:45:05,239
Speaker 1: valuable for other reasons. And I don't think that we

887
00:45:05,239 --> 00:45:08,200
Speaker 1: should lose spaces to connect with people in mass if

888
00:45:08,239 --> 00:45:11,040
Speaker 1: that's what we're trying to do. But imagine we found

889
00:45:11,040 --> 00:45:13,279
Speaker 1: a better way to do it. Like, imagine there was

890
00:45:13,360 --> 00:45:16,080
Speaker 1: something else that came after this, and people are like,

891
00:45:16,120 --> 00:45:19,480
Speaker 1: oh wait, I've been screaming to people online for no reason,

892
00:45:19,719 --> 00:45:23,160
Speaker 1: Like I spent all this time yelling and I didn't

893
00:45:23,200 --> 00:45:25,600
Speaker 1: have to. I think that would be really lovely. I

894
00:45:25,640 --> 00:45:26,960
Speaker 1: just can't wait to see what happened. I was just

895
00:45:27,000 --> 00:45:29,359
Speaker 1: gonna say, like, the reason I love my job and

896
00:45:29,400 --> 00:45:31,759
Speaker 1: I love covering all this stuff is I'm sure you

897
00:45:31,800 --> 00:45:34,520
Speaker 1: do to Josh. It's like you get such a front

898
00:45:34,600 --> 00:45:36,319
Speaker 1: row seat to all of these shifts, and it's so

899
00:45:36,400 --> 00:45:40,120
Speaker 1: fun to get to talk to people, and it's it's interesting.

900
00:45:40,280 --> 00:45:42,800
Speaker 1: I mean, I do still love the Internet, but I

901
00:45:42,840 --> 00:45:46,359
Speaker 1: feel such a sadness now so often that like we

902
00:45:46,400 --> 00:45:49,600
Speaker 1: haven't done more. It feels like, you know, we have

903
00:45:49,680 --> 00:45:52,319
Speaker 1: spent so much time and energy and and it's like

904
00:45:53,400 --> 00:45:55,799
Speaker 1: it's so much of it has gone so gone bad.

905
00:45:55,880 --> 00:45:58,400
Speaker 1: But but I will say, talking to you, a person

906
00:45:58,400 --> 00:46:01,680
Speaker 1: who has received an enormous amount of harassment and hatred

907
00:46:01,760 --> 00:46:05,360
Speaker 1: and and just frankly rudeness all over the Internet, the

908
00:46:05,400 --> 00:46:08,319
Speaker 1: fact that you can continue to have what I would

909
00:46:08,360 --> 00:46:12,640
Speaker 1: describe as an optimistic viewpoint about the very things where

910
00:46:12,719 --> 00:46:15,919
Speaker 1: like your harassment has taken place is honestly, like it's

911
00:46:16,000 --> 00:46:19,879
Speaker 1: very inspiring. I have been feeling lately, you know, am

912
00:46:19,920 --> 00:46:22,080
Speaker 1: I just a little bit too JOm and gloom about everything,

913
00:46:22,120 --> 00:46:24,440
Speaker 1: But I don't know you're giving me. You're giving me

914
00:46:24,480 --> 00:46:27,480
Speaker 1: a potentially a feeling of hope, because if you haven't

915
00:46:27,480 --> 00:46:30,439
Speaker 1: been beaten down, and maybe there's hope for us all.

916
00:46:32,000 --> 00:46:33,520
Speaker 1: It's like that meme, you know that meme of the

917
00:46:33,560 --> 00:46:35,440
Speaker 1: kid on the school bus and he's like there's a

918
00:46:35,520 --> 00:46:38,120
Speaker 1: one guy looking out the at the dark side, and

919
00:46:38,480 --> 00:46:40,000
Speaker 1: I like the one where it's like they both say

920
00:46:40,040 --> 00:46:42,920
Speaker 1: like everything is terrible or something, and it's like the

921
00:46:42,920 --> 00:46:44,640
Speaker 1: one guy's like everything is terrible to the other person's

922
00:46:44,680 --> 00:46:48,839
Speaker 1: like everything is terrible. That's how I feel. Wow, that's

923
00:46:48,960 --> 00:46:51,400
Speaker 1: you're the everything is terrible with exclamation marks, is what

924
00:46:51,440 --> 00:46:54,319
Speaker 1: you're saying. Taylor, thank you so much for taking time

925
00:46:54,360 --> 00:46:56,799
Speaker 1: to do this. I really have enjoyed this conversation. I

926
00:46:56,800 --> 00:46:59,279
Speaker 1: really appreciate you taking time out of your I mean,

927
00:46:59,280 --> 00:47:01,120
Speaker 1: you probably were there about to file a story that

928
00:47:01,120 --> 00:47:03,960
Speaker 1: will lead to harassment, or you may have missed out

929
00:47:03,960 --> 00:47:07,359
Speaker 1: on some harassment during this conversation. Um, but I really

930
00:47:07,440 --> 00:47:09,000
Speaker 1: appreciate you taking the time and I hope that you'll

931
00:47:09,000 --> 00:47:11,200
Speaker 1: come back and we can figure out if like the

932
00:47:11,239 --> 00:47:13,560
Speaker 1: next thing happens and then you can tell us all

933
00:47:13,560 --> 00:47:16,279
Speaker 1: about why it's why it's either good or very bad.

934
00:47:16,560 --> 00:47:19,640
Speaker 1: So thank you, yeah, thank you so much for having me.

935
00:47:29,160 --> 00:47:35,759
Speaker 1: Uh well, that was fascinating. I'm I'm so surprised at

936
00:47:35,800 --> 00:47:39,480
Speaker 1: Taylor's attitude towards some being online. I mean, if I

937
00:47:39,520 --> 00:47:42,640
Speaker 1: were her now, I've again, I've received only a small

938
00:47:42,640 --> 00:47:45,560
Speaker 1: amount of harassment by comparison, but I would crumple like

939
00:47:45,640 --> 00:47:48,440
Speaker 1: a wet newspaper and that would be it for me.

940
00:47:48,800 --> 00:47:50,640
Speaker 1: I mean, if you've, if you've looked at at the

941
00:47:50,719 --> 00:47:53,719
Speaker 1: kinds of stuff that people are saying to Taylor on

942
00:47:53,760 --> 00:47:56,239
Speaker 1: a daily basis, Like literally Tucker Carlson makes her like

943
00:47:56,719 --> 00:48:00,640
Speaker 1: the point of his monologue. Sometimes it's so unhealthy. I

944
00:48:00,680 --> 00:48:02,600
Speaker 1: mean not not I'm not saying she's being unhealthy, but

945
00:48:02,680 --> 00:48:05,440
Speaker 1: like there's so much unhealthy stuff that's like thrown at her.

946
00:48:06,239 --> 00:48:11,160
Speaker 1: It's hard to believe and imagine being able to like

947
00:48:11,160 --> 00:48:13,520
Speaker 1: face that then go yeah, I'm gonna keep going, so

948
00:48:14,480 --> 00:48:19,719
Speaker 1: like what backbone? What resolved? Resilient, resilience, unbelievable, I mean

949
00:48:19,760 --> 00:48:22,279
Speaker 1: never the last she persisted, I think is really what

950
00:48:22,320 --> 00:48:26,080
Speaker 1: I wanted to say. There, Um, you coined that, right,

951
00:48:26,360 --> 00:48:30,680
Speaker 1: that was my original phrase, Um, that's my thing about

952
00:48:30,719 --> 00:48:34,040
Speaker 1: all the ladies fighting the good fight. You don't see

953
00:48:34,080 --> 00:48:36,280
Speaker 1: those shirts a lot anymore. You don't see that. Nevertheless,

954
00:48:36,320 --> 00:48:40,480
Speaker 1: she persisted, No, it was pretty trendy. Yeah, but anyhow,

955
00:48:40,520 --> 00:48:42,319
Speaker 1: that was It's super interesting. I mean, I know we've

956
00:48:42,440 --> 00:48:45,880
Speaker 1: talked a lot about social media lately because it's just frankly, look,

957
00:48:46,200 --> 00:48:49,000
Speaker 1: since the world didn't blow up, there was no red wave,

958
00:48:49,640 --> 00:48:53,880
Speaker 1: you know, in fact, there's like an extra democratic senator

959
00:48:53,960 --> 00:48:56,920
Speaker 1: as of last night or whatever. You know, news has

960
00:48:56,960 --> 00:48:59,240
Speaker 1: been kind of quiet, and Twitter has been a disaster,

961
00:48:59,320 --> 00:49:01,799
Speaker 1: and there's all times of nasty social media stuff going on.

962
00:49:02,239 --> 00:49:06,520
Speaker 1: But Taylor is so she's such a unique character in

963
00:49:06,560 --> 00:49:11,520
Speaker 1: the mix because she is one of these reporters who

964
00:49:11,560 --> 00:49:14,120
Speaker 1: and there aren't that many of them who they report

965
00:49:14,160 --> 00:49:17,560
Speaker 1: on this stuff. They're very i mean, her reporting is

966
00:49:17,719 --> 00:49:20,520
Speaker 1: very very good and smart and get stuff that people

967
00:49:20,600 --> 00:49:23,360
Speaker 1: never see in a million years until like she illustrates it.

968
00:49:23,719 --> 00:49:25,719
Speaker 1: But then she's also in it. She's like in the

969
00:49:25,760 --> 00:49:28,759
Speaker 1: stuff that she's talking about, Like she is there online

970
00:49:28,760 --> 00:49:31,239
Speaker 1: with the people she's reporting on, and like she's not

971
00:49:31,280 --> 00:49:33,520
Speaker 1: flying in and there's like ten thousand foot view like

972
00:49:33,560 --> 00:49:36,040
Speaker 1: the way like a traditional journalist would might go to,

973
00:49:36,560 --> 00:49:39,040
Speaker 1: you know, cover the strike at the coal mine or whatever,

974
00:49:39,400 --> 00:49:41,520
Speaker 1: but like, you're not working in the coal mine. You're

975
00:49:41,560 --> 00:49:43,720
Speaker 1: not like you don't live in West Virginia or whatever.

976
00:49:44,080 --> 00:49:45,879
Speaker 1: You go and do the story and then you leave

977
00:49:45,960 --> 00:49:47,839
Speaker 1: and then you don't encounter any of that. But this

978
00:49:47,920 --> 00:49:50,840
Speaker 1: is like she's literally like, well, I went to report

979
00:49:50,840 --> 00:49:52,040
Speaker 1: on the strike in the coal mine, and then I

980
00:49:52,040 --> 00:49:54,560
Speaker 1: went down to the coal mine and started like hammering

981
00:49:54,600 --> 00:49:56,279
Speaker 1: away at the coal or whatever it is they do

982
00:49:56,320 --> 00:49:58,319
Speaker 1: in the coal mine. I assume there's some kind of

983
00:49:58,360 --> 00:50:02,399
Speaker 1: mining that goes on, and Uh, that takes it. I mean,

984
00:50:02,440 --> 00:50:06,560
Speaker 1: it just takes a kind of I don't know resolve

985
00:50:06,719 --> 00:50:09,960
Speaker 1: that I don't feel like like if somebody was like,

986
00:50:10,000 --> 00:50:12,760
Speaker 1: you're gonna break the biggest story about the worst trolls

987
00:50:12,760 --> 00:50:15,759
Speaker 1: on the Internet and you're gonna get super famous for it,

988
00:50:15,760 --> 00:50:17,399
Speaker 1: and someone's gonna want to give you a book deal

989
00:50:18,040 --> 00:50:19,759
Speaker 1: and you're gonna like make a movie out of it,

990
00:50:19,800 --> 00:50:23,120
Speaker 1: I think I would definitely pause and maybe say I

991
00:50:23,120 --> 00:50:25,279
Speaker 1: don't want to do that, because you would become a

992
00:50:25,360 --> 00:50:29,360
Speaker 1: lightning rod for some of the worst like hate that

993
00:50:29,440 --> 00:50:32,800
Speaker 1: you can possibly imagine. And so yeah, it takes a

994
00:50:32,840 --> 00:50:36,520
Speaker 1: special kind of fearlessness to do it. And Taylor's got it.

995
00:50:36,719 --> 00:50:39,959
Speaker 1: Taylor's got it in spades. I can't get in touch

996
00:50:40,000 --> 00:50:42,360
Speaker 1: with that. If anything, I I mean, my dream is

997
00:50:42,400 --> 00:50:45,200
Speaker 1: to retreat to the woods, as you know, to get

998
00:50:45,239 --> 00:50:48,120
Speaker 1: my axe and to just start chopping away at the

999
00:50:48,200 --> 00:50:49,600
Speaker 1: at the wood, all of the wood that I can

1000
00:50:49,600 --> 00:50:53,000
Speaker 1: get my hands on. This is a classic like New

1001
00:50:53,120 --> 00:50:58,560
Speaker 1: York media guy fantasy. It's like cutting wood building fires.

1002
00:50:58,560 --> 00:51:01,080
Speaker 1: I love doing that. Um, I've been having this like

1003
00:51:01,160 --> 00:51:03,080
Speaker 1: thing with my trash. Have I told you about my

1004
00:51:03,120 --> 00:51:08,440
Speaker 1: trash problem? No. I moved my trash cans outdoors because

1005
00:51:08,440 --> 00:51:09,799
Speaker 1: I didn't want them in because they were in my

1006
00:51:09,840 --> 00:51:12,160
Speaker 1: garage originally, and I wanted to put them outside. And

1007
00:51:12,160 --> 00:51:14,520
Speaker 1: so I have this thing that I built where it's

1008
00:51:14,600 --> 00:51:16,400
Speaker 1: got a lid, and I put the trash cans in it,

1009
00:51:16,440 --> 00:51:19,239
Speaker 1: and I'm like, that'll be fine. The raccoons will never

1010
00:51:19,320 --> 00:51:23,440
Speaker 1: get in there. And they did get in there, and

1011
00:51:23,640 --> 00:51:26,359
Speaker 1: they like chewed like I had plastic trash cans. They

1012
00:51:26,360 --> 00:51:28,040
Speaker 1: basically chewed the lids of the trash cans to the

1013
00:51:28,040 --> 00:51:30,280
Speaker 1: point where they looked like a cookie that like somebody

1014
00:51:30,280 --> 00:51:33,120
Speaker 1: had taken like a chunk out of like plastic, you know,

1015
00:51:33,239 --> 00:51:34,719
Speaker 1: did they eat the plastic? I don't know, because like

1016
00:51:34,719 --> 00:51:37,880
Speaker 1: there's no plastic scraps anywhere. And so they like found

1017
00:51:37,880 --> 00:51:40,120
Speaker 1: a way to get into my trash cans. And then

1018
00:51:40,120 --> 00:51:42,719
Speaker 1: they were eating, they were pulling the trash cans out.

1019
00:51:42,760 --> 00:51:44,520
Speaker 1: Then I put a barrier into they can pull them.

1020
00:51:44,560 --> 00:51:47,040
Speaker 1: And they were going into the trash cans and they

1021
00:51:47,040 --> 00:52:04,960
Speaker 1: were eating inside and drawn and it's like and then