1 00:00:06,400 --> 00:00:10,320 Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace on Sirius XM Triumph Channel 2 00:00:10,440 --> 00:00:18,840 Speaker 1: one thirty two. A married middle school science teacher. Wow. 3 00:00:18,880 --> 00:00:22,480 Speaker 1: When I think of my science teacher, I don't think 4 00:00:23,720 --> 00:00:27,440 Speaker 1: nude photo at all. That just doesn't come to mind. 5 00:00:28,120 --> 00:00:30,400 Speaker 1: I mean, you see, Grace, this is crime Stories. Thank 6 00:00:30,440 --> 00:00:34,720 Speaker 1: you for being with us here on Serious x two. Wow. 7 00:00:35,600 --> 00:00:40,519 Speaker 1: Uh to Jennifer Zikowski, heavy dot com reporter. You know, Jennifer, 8 00:00:40,520 --> 00:00:43,360 Speaker 1: first of all, I love heavy dot Com. I can 9 00:00:43,360 --> 00:00:46,600 Speaker 1: look everything up in a heartbeat, and it's an awesome 10 00:00:46,600 --> 00:00:50,320 Speaker 1: website and I'm glad you're with us today. Just give 11 00:00:50,360 --> 00:00:53,480 Speaker 1: it to me fast and furious. How do you put 12 00:00:53,520 --> 00:01:00,080 Speaker 1: the words middle school science teacher and nude photos in 13 00:01:00,120 --> 00:01:03,560 Speaker 1: the same sentence, Jennifer, How do just string that together? Right? 14 00:01:06,080 --> 00:01:10,600 Speaker 1: It's it's really horrifying to think if you have a 15 00:01:10,720 --> 00:01:13,880 Speaker 1: child at age. I'm not apparent myself. I do have 16 00:01:14,000 --> 00:01:17,920 Speaker 1: nephews that age who I completely adore. And to let 17 00:01:18,000 --> 00:01:22,400 Speaker 1: me just interrupt you right there, Jennifer, you must run 18 00:01:22,440 --> 00:01:25,240 Speaker 1: out right now and get two twins like I did. 19 00:01:25,360 --> 00:01:27,640 Speaker 1: You can get him at Walmart in the tire section. 20 00:01:28,240 --> 00:01:30,679 Speaker 1: It's the best thing that ever happened to me. There 21 00:01:30,680 --> 00:01:32,840 Speaker 1: are many people on this panel right now that live 22 00:01:32,959 --> 00:01:38,160 Speaker 1: through my pregnancy with me. That was something. But let 23 00:01:38,160 --> 00:01:40,520 Speaker 1: me tell you something. You don't risk your life to 24 00:01:40,640 --> 00:01:44,080 Speaker 1: give birth and then spend every waking moment and every 25 00:01:44,120 --> 00:01:48,919 Speaker 1: penny you earn all into your children to find out 26 00:01:49,320 --> 00:01:53,600 Speaker 1: they've been looking at their science teacher's nude photos, that 27 00:01:53,680 --> 00:01:58,240 Speaker 1: she's trying to have relations with them, and even provides 28 00:01:58,360 --> 00:02:02,320 Speaker 1: him pot and a bowl to smoke it in. Hello, 29 00:02:02,880 --> 00:02:07,960 Speaker 1: help me out, Jennifer. Yes, that's exactly what happened. Um, 30 00:02:08,120 --> 00:02:11,560 Speaker 1: what really? I guess what what started with all of this? 31 00:02:12,240 --> 00:02:16,639 Speaker 1: The boy was her student in seventh grade. In eighth grade, 32 00:02:16,639 --> 00:02:20,440 Speaker 1: it was reported that he became her teacher's aid. And 33 00:02:22,280 --> 00:02:26,360 Speaker 1: apparently what happened is the boy did not have his 34 00:02:26,440 --> 00:02:31,000 Speaker 1: own smartphone. She allowed him to use her phone and 35 00:02:31,160 --> 00:02:37,000 Speaker 1: access his Instagram account. Once he left the classroom, she 36 00:02:37,200 --> 00:02:40,960 Speaker 1: got onto his account and sent a message, or figured 37 00:02:41,000 --> 00:02:43,560 Speaker 1: out which account was his, sent a message to him. 38 00:02:44,120 --> 00:02:47,760 Speaker 1: And so this is how the atrocious saga kind of 39 00:02:48,120 --> 00:02:51,680 Speaker 1: wit are you telling me? Somehow I've heard so far, 40 00:02:51,880 --> 00:02:56,680 Speaker 1: Jennifer Skowski is that he didn't have a smartphone. Okay, 41 00:02:56,880 --> 00:03:02,760 Speaker 1: neither to my children, okay? Um and Ashley, you and 42 00:03:02,800 --> 00:03:10,360 Speaker 1: I were just just talking about a drama that unfolded 43 00:03:10,400 --> 00:03:13,720 Speaker 1: at the children's fourth grade class where a bunch of 44 00:03:13,760 --> 00:03:16,560 Speaker 1: students and I haven't gotten to the bottom of it yet. Um, 45 00:03:16,840 --> 00:03:21,120 Speaker 1: we're texting each other messages. I don't know if they 46 00:03:21,120 --> 00:03:23,760 Speaker 1: were bully messages. I don't know if they had ugly 47 00:03:23,800 --> 00:03:26,920 Speaker 1: words in them. I don't know exactly what was in 48 00:03:27,320 --> 00:03:31,440 Speaker 1: the text messages. But honey, you know I stopped right 49 00:03:31,720 --> 00:03:34,560 Speaker 1: up to the principal and said, I want to get 50 00:03:34,600 --> 00:03:38,040 Speaker 1: to the bottom of this text scandal amongst the ten 51 00:03:38,280 --> 00:03:42,600 Speaker 1: ten year old and she told me that the twins 52 00:03:42,760 --> 00:03:46,160 Speaker 1: were not part of it. Well, I stomped back to 53 00:03:46,200 --> 00:03:49,040 Speaker 1: the car and immediately burst into tears. I was so grateful, 54 00:03:49,520 --> 00:03:51,560 Speaker 1: you know, that they were not part of it, and 55 00:03:51,640 --> 00:03:55,240 Speaker 1: that the drama hadn't already started in the fourth grade. 56 00:03:55,920 --> 00:03:59,280 Speaker 1: And now I have to hear about this woman who 57 00:03:59,400 --> 00:04:02,480 Speaker 1: parents don't even give him a cell phone for reasons 58 00:04:02,560 --> 00:04:05,600 Speaker 1: I just laid out, And she gives him her cell phone. 59 00:04:05,640 --> 00:04:07,480 Speaker 1: Did I get that right? So she could send him 60 00:04:07,800 --> 00:04:10,240 Speaker 1: nude photos and that ends up with them having s 61 00:04:10,320 --> 00:04:16,480 Speaker 1: e X. Yes, that is exactly what happened. So and 62 00:04:16,520 --> 00:04:21,040 Speaker 1: how this became how his His parents eventually found out 63 00:04:22,279 --> 00:04:25,920 Speaker 1: the It's kind of strange how it did unfold, and 64 00:04:26,600 --> 00:04:30,920 Speaker 1: very lucky for another teacher at the school. Apparently, the 65 00:04:30,920 --> 00:04:34,839 Speaker 1: boy had gone to another teacher and asked if he 66 00:04:34,880 --> 00:04:40,440 Speaker 1: could mentor him. That teacher, a male teacher, called the 67 00:04:40,480 --> 00:04:44,640 Speaker 1: boy's parents and said, would it be okay to mentor 68 00:04:44,760 --> 00:04:48,200 Speaker 1: your son? You know, he came to me asking and 69 00:04:48,920 --> 00:04:52,599 Speaker 1: the mom thought that was a little bit weird and 70 00:04:53,080 --> 00:04:56,960 Speaker 1: question the boy. She jokingly said, you know, oh, is 71 00:04:57,000 --> 00:04:59,480 Speaker 1: he going to molest you? Wait? Wait? Wait, wait wait? 72 00:04:59,640 --> 00:05:06,000 Speaker 1: Why wait? Why would you joke about that? I know, Okay, 73 00:05:06,720 --> 00:05:09,200 Speaker 1: hold on, excuse me, Jennifer. As much as I love 74 00:05:09,240 --> 00:05:13,280 Speaker 1: heavy dot com, Dr Bethany Marshall L a psycho analyst, 75 00:05:13,600 --> 00:05:17,320 Speaker 1: We need a shrink. Guys with me. Robin Ficker, high 76 00:05:17,360 --> 00:05:20,960 Speaker 1: profile defense attorney out of the Maryland area. Dr Bethany 77 00:05:21,000 --> 00:05:25,800 Speaker 1: Marshall L a psycho analyst. Juvenile judge Ashley Wilcott who 78 00:05:25,839 --> 00:05:30,000 Speaker 1: has just launched her own website, child Crime watch dot com. 79 00:05:30,480 --> 00:05:35,080 Speaker 1: Jennifer Zakowski, Heavy dot Com reporter back to Dr Bethany Marshall, 80 00:05:35,360 --> 00:05:38,919 Speaker 1: why would you just suddenly say to your child is 81 00:05:38,960 --> 00:05:43,839 Speaker 1: your teacher going to molest you and did is that appropriate? Nancy. 82 00:05:43,960 --> 00:05:46,240 Speaker 1: First of all, I'm not sure I even believe that 83 00:05:46,279 --> 00:05:48,560 Speaker 1: the mother said that. It's very hard to believe, but 84 00:05:48,640 --> 00:05:52,320 Speaker 1: if she did, it's highly inappropriate. The only thought that 85 00:05:52,360 --> 00:05:55,599 Speaker 1: comes to my mind is if this boy was already 86 00:05:55,640 --> 00:05:59,560 Speaker 1: being groomed by this older female teacher, that he might 87 00:05:59,560 --> 00:06:02,360 Speaker 1: have become hyper sexual because that's some of the one 88 00:06:02,400 --> 00:06:04,880 Speaker 1: of the things we see with molestation victims as they 89 00:06:04,960 --> 00:06:09,400 Speaker 1: become highly sexualized. And then maybe the mother had observed 90 00:06:09,520 --> 00:06:13,760 Speaker 1: this and began to wonder about her son's behavior. It's 91 00:06:13,760 --> 00:06:15,960 Speaker 1: hard to believe that she joked about it, but maybe 92 00:06:16,000 --> 00:06:20,280 Speaker 1: she was trying to investigate um into changes in her 93 00:06:20,279 --> 00:06:23,640 Speaker 1: son's behavior that she was observing. Before I go back 94 00:06:23,680 --> 00:06:28,120 Speaker 1: to heavy dot com reporter Jennifer Slakowski. Joining me just 95 00:06:28,279 --> 00:06:33,640 Speaker 1: outside the courtroom is renowned defense attorney Robin Thicker. Robin Thicker, 96 00:06:34,000 --> 00:06:37,680 Speaker 1: this middle school science teacher, who was just twenty six 97 00:06:37,760 --> 00:06:45,600 Speaker 1: years old, is allegedly having sex with a middle school student, 98 00:06:45,720 --> 00:06:48,720 Speaker 1: sending nude photos, providing him pot and a bowl to 99 00:06:48,880 --> 00:06:51,839 Speaker 1: smoke it in. I mean, she looks like a cover 100 00:06:51,920 --> 00:06:54,800 Speaker 1: girl that should be on the front of UH Sports illustrated. 101 00:06:55,040 --> 00:06:57,720 Speaker 1: The photo I have of her is she's out on 102 00:06:57,800 --> 00:07:02,320 Speaker 1: the ocean fishing, deep sea fishing in a swimsuit. She 103 00:07:02,520 --> 00:07:07,120 Speaker 1: she looks like an Olympian, and all that is right 104 00:07:07,279 --> 00:07:13,200 Speaker 1: down the drain, her education, her youth, her beauty, because 105 00:07:13,200 --> 00:07:16,360 Speaker 1: she's probably gonna end up rotting in jail. Robin, she 106 00:07:16,520 --> 00:07:19,120 Speaker 1: can't have sex with a boy that's fourteen or a 107 00:07:19,200 --> 00:07:23,880 Speaker 1: girl it's fourteen, and and every teacher I'm sure knows that. 108 00:07:24,200 --> 00:07:26,880 Speaker 1: You know, the sending of the artwork to him is 109 00:07:26,920 --> 00:07:30,880 Speaker 1: one thing. But actually consummating this, if indeed there is 110 00:07:31,000 --> 00:07:34,800 Speaker 1: proof that it was consummated, that's a big problem. What 111 00:07:35,000 --> 00:07:38,880 Speaker 1: art work? Well, I'm talking about the photos, the nude, 112 00:07:38,920 --> 00:07:41,880 Speaker 1: explicit photos of herself she sent to him from her 113 00:07:41,920 --> 00:07:45,880 Speaker 1: own cell phone. That I hardly thought of nude photos 114 00:07:46,040 --> 00:07:48,200 Speaker 1: as as art work when you're sitting them to a 115 00:07:48,240 --> 00:07:51,400 Speaker 1: fourteen year old. Is that what you're talking about, Robin Ficker. 116 00:07:51,560 --> 00:07:54,600 Speaker 1: Every fourteen year old boy can get a picture of 117 00:07:54,640 --> 00:07:57,640 Speaker 1: a of a nude, attractive woman on his cell phone. 118 00:07:58,520 --> 00:08:01,239 Speaker 1: I don't think that's the huge problem. The huge problem 119 00:08:01,360 --> 00:08:04,440 Speaker 1: is is that it apparently it went much further than 120 00:08:04,920 --> 00:08:09,600 Speaker 1: than trading photos. Okay, right, there as she willcott you 121 00:08:09,640 --> 00:08:13,520 Speaker 1: are the juvenile court judge. Oh see, I would have 122 00:08:13,560 --> 00:08:16,160 Speaker 1: a big problem with a teacher sending John David or 123 00:08:16,200 --> 00:08:19,200 Speaker 1: Lucy nude photos at age fourteen. I have a huge 124 00:08:19,280 --> 00:08:22,280 Speaker 1: problem with it. She's a predator. It doesn't matter what 125 00:08:22,520 --> 00:08:25,880 Speaker 1: his ages in terms of it's your student, it's a child, 126 00:08:26,000 --> 00:08:29,760 Speaker 1: it's a juvenile. It's not appropriate. It crossed many many 127 00:08:29,800 --> 00:08:34,400 Speaker 1: lines and results in criminal charges. Back to Jennifer Skowski, 128 00:08:34,559 --> 00:08:38,360 Speaker 1: Heavy dot com reporter, so if you could just tell 129 00:08:38,400 --> 00:08:42,200 Speaker 1: me concisely what we know, the boy comes home and 130 00:08:42,240 --> 00:08:48,199 Speaker 1: tells his mother what after she reportedly said, what is 131 00:08:48,200 --> 00:08:51,040 Speaker 1: is he going to molest you? If she really jokingly 132 00:08:51,160 --> 00:08:54,640 Speaker 1: said that, What was reported was that the boy then 133 00:08:54,920 --> 00:09:01,200 Speaker 1: rope down crying. Quote anyone could malish do. That's what 134 00:09:01,360 --> 00:09:07,120 Speaker 1: he said, according to the police. So after that statement, uh, 135 00:09:07,280 --> 00:09:12,440 Speaker 1: the pairing of the boy, um they they had a 136 00:09:12,480 --> 00:09:17,560 Speaker 1: feeling that this was Stephanie because the boy was busy 137 00:09:17,559 --> 00:09:20,880 Speaker 1: in her classroom on a daily basis, and they knew 138 00:09:20,920 --> 00:09:24,360 Speaker 1: that she would often buy him McDonald's. I believe, as 139 00:09:24,400 --> 00:09:27,800 Speaker 1: far as what I've seen, that's as far as they 140 00:09:27,840 --> 00:09:31,160 Speaker 1: knew it was going. But obviously that most of rates 141 00:09:31,400 --> 00:09:35,360 Speaker 1: raised some red flags, considering that they thought of her 142 00:09:35,480 --> 00:09:40,840 Speaker 1: right away. So after that conversation, the team did go 143 00:09:40,920 --> 00:09:43,480 Speaker 1: on to tell his parents that he was in fact 144 00:09:43,559 --> 00:09:48,200 Speaker 1: having a sexual relationship with his teacher, Stephanie, who, of course, 145 00:09:48,280 --> 00:09:50,520 Speaker 1: you know, told him not to tell anybody about what 146 00:09:50,600 --> 00:09:54,480 Speaker 1: was happening or they'd be in trouble. And then after 147 00:09:54,520 --> 00:09:58,160 Speaker 1: telling his parents about the abuse, police went on to 148 00:09:58,280 --> 00:10:02,720 Speaker 1: interview the boy. He was arrested the next day, so 149 00:10:03,240 --> 00:10:08,720 Speaker 1: they obviously by that point already had evidence. They were 150 00:10:08,760 --> 00:10:13,200 Speaker 1: provided with provocative photos of Stephanie, one showing her nude 151 00:10:13,200 --> 00:10:17,520 Speaker 1: and shower. Then investigators also said, you know, both the 152 00:10:17,559 --> 00:10:21,840 Speaker 1: teacher and boy exchanged photos of their sexual organs, with 153 00:10:22,000 --> 00:10:27,760 Speaker 1: Stephanie allegedly using Snapchat to send the photos. So with 154 00:10:27,840 --> 00:10:31,720 Speaker 1: that probably thinking that they'll get lost and there won't 155 00:10:31,720 --> 00:10:34,359 Speaker 1: be any proof, did even will judge as she Willcott 156 00:10:34,480 --> 00:10:40,920 Speaker 1: and founder of child crime watch dot com. You know, Ashley, 157 00:10:41,480 --> 00:10:46,839 Speaker 1: everyone is acting like they photos and nude photos are 158 00:10:46,920 --> 00:10:49,520 Speaker 1: no big deal. I find them to be a big deal. 159 00:10:49,559 --> 00:10:53,040 Speaker 1: There's a reason I haven't given the twins a cell 160 00:10:53,080 --> 00:10:57,920 Speaker 1: phone yet. Okay, there's a reason when they're on their iPads. 161 00:10:58,080 --> 00:11:00,760 Speaker 1: I'm in the room with them. There's a reason for that, 162 00:11:01,960 --> 00:11:05,840 Speaker 1: because I want to try and keep them safe, and 163 00:11:05,920 --> 00:11:08,360 Speaker 1: it seems to me, I mean, I haven't even touched 164 00:11:08,360 --> 00:11:13,840 Speaker 1: on the alleged child rape of a fourteen year old boy, 165 00:11:13,920 --> 00:11:16,280 Speaker 1: A boy that had just turned fourteen, A boy that 166 00:11:16,360 --> 00:11:20,880 Speaker 1: broke down in tears crying when he told his mom 167 00:11:21,040 --> 00:11:26,120 Speaker 1: what had happened. Allegedly, this middle school science teacher had 168 00:11:26,200 --> 00:11:31,600 Speaker 1: taken him out alone, on many occasions alone, to have 169 00:11:31,760 --> 00:11:36,160 Speaker 1: sex with this little boy. Okay, exchanging nude photos is 170 00:11:36,200 --> 00:11:39,240 Speaker 1: the tip of the iceberg. There are allegations she gave 171 00:11:39,280 --> 00:11:42,000 Speaker 1: him marijuana and showed him how to smoke it out 172 00:11:42,000 --> 00:11:45,520 Speaker 1: of a bowl. But you don't you're you're not supposed 173 00:11:45,600 --> 00:11:49,439 Speaker 1: to know all that when you have just had your 174 00:11:49,480 --> 00:11:53,640 Speaker 1: fourteenth birthday, Ashley, No, and so sending the nude pictures 175 00:11:53,679 --> 00:11:56,880 Speaker 1: it's called grooming, and that's how she started it. And 176 00:11:56,920 --> 00:12:01,720 Speaker 1: he's the victim. No fourteen year old, no teenager has 177 00:12:01,800 --> 00:12:06,640 Speaker 1: the capacity brain development to make good decisions and to 178 00:12:06,840 --> 00:12:09,600 Speaker 1: know what's right, what's wrong. How do I make a 179 00:12:09,600 --> 00:12:13,760 Speaker 1: good decision? That's why she's the criminal. He's the victim. 180 00:12:14,000 --> 00:12:15,840 Speaker 1: It's just like you said with the ten year olds, 181 00:12:15,840 --> 00:12:20,280 Speaker 1: with texting. They don't have the brain development capacity to 182 00:12:20,440 --> 00:12:24,120 Speaker 1: know how to say things well or correctly, or that 183 00:12:24,200 --> 00:12:27,560 Speaker 1: it's not hurtful. They don't have the ability. This thirteen 184 00:12:27,600 --> 00:12:31,160 Speaker 1: year old had absolutely no ability to know what to 185 00:12:31,200 --> 00:12:34,760 Speaker 1: do next or how to handle when a teacher sent 186 00:12:34,960 --> 00:12:38,920 Speaker 1: him nude pictures. She was grooming him. A teacher who 187 00:12:38,960 --> 00:12:43,720 Speaker 1: taught at New Smyrna Beach Middle School in Florida just 188 00:12:44,040 --> 00:12:48,720 Speaker 1: arrested on allegations she had a sex relationship with a 189 00:12:48,760 --> 00:12:53,240 Speaker 1: fourteen year old boy. And here is the kicker. To 190 00:12:53,360 --> 00:12:56,559 Speaker 1: Dr Bethany Marshall, she seemingly was an happy marriage, her 191 00:12:56,640 --> 00:12:59,560 Speaker 1: husband a firefire. I know, isn't it shocking? I saw 192 00:12:59,559 --> 00:13:02,400 Speaker 1: the photo. He's so nice looking. They're a beautiful couple, 193 00:13:02,640 --> 00:13:05,240 Speaker 1: and I want to say something about these photos. So 194 00:13:05,320 --> 00:13:08,800 Speaker 1: because this is bugging me too. Not only is sending 195 00:13:08,800 --> 00:13:12,120 Speaker 1: a photo a part of the grooming process, as Ashley said, 196 00:13:12,679 --> 00:13:17,360 Speaker 1: but sexual child sexual abuse is not just having sex 197 00:13:17,400 --> 00:13:22,080 Speaker 1: with a child. It's stimulating the child to feel feelings 198 00:13:22,120 --> 00:13:26,640 Speaker 1: that they're not yet prepared to handle. Okay, so um, 199 00:13:27,080 --> 00:13:31,360 Speaker 1: child sexual abuse often starts with with showing photos. That's 200 00:13:31,400 --> 00:13:34,200 Speaker 1: where it starts. That's where the grooming process starts, because 201 00:13:34,640 --> 00:13:38,760 Speaker 1: especially with young boys, they they're just beginning to get 202 00:13:38,800 --> 00:13:43,240 Speaker 1: erections or they're just beginning to become sexual beings, and 203 00:13:43,280 --> 00:13:45,240 Speaker 1: they do not know how to handle that. And the 204 00:13:45,280 --> 00:13:47,959 Speaker 1: fact that he might look at those photos get an 205 00:13:47,960 --> 00:13:51,960 Speaker 1: erection is the beginnings of him feeling that he's at 206 00:13:52,040 --> 00:13:55,520 Speaker 1: fault in this whole situation. He might tell himself, well, 207 00:13:55,559 --> 00:13:58,280 Speaker 1: I'm attracted to her, so I must want it, and 208 00:13:58,360 --> 00:14:01,880 Speaker 1: there the confusion begin. And we know from so many 209 00:14:01,960 --> 00:14:05,000 Speaker 1: cases that we've handled, that that you have covered, Nancy, 210 00:14:05,040 --> 00:14:07,640 Speaker 1: and that you've had me on your panel, that these 211 00:14:07,679 --> 00:14:11,520 Speaker 1: women are often quite beautiful. And what I think about 212 00:14:11,559 --> 00:14:14,760 Speaker 1: that is that they're really childlike. They're very kind of 213 00:14:14,880 --> 00:14:20,120 Speaker 1: arrested developmentally. They're very immature. They see their child victims 214 00:14:20,160 --> 00:14:22,600 Speaker 1: as an age mate. They imagine, even though there was 215 00:14:22,760 --> 00:14:25,720 Speaker 1: more than ten years age difference between the two, it's 216 00:14:25,760 --> 00:14:28,680 Speaker 1: as if the two are the same age in her mind. Nancy, 217 00:14:28,840 --> 00:14:30,680 Speaker 1: she would she would go pick him up at the 218 00:14:30,680 --> 00:14:35,240 Speaker 1: parents house at eleven o'clock at night. That is bold. 219 00:14:35,560 --> 00:14:37,720 Speaker 1: She's the teacher, and she would pull up to the 220 00:14:37,760 --> 00:14:41,640 Speaker 1: house and retrieve him from the house while he was 221 00:14:41,680 --> 00:14:45,920 Speaker 1: with his parents and to me. That tells me how cunning, manipulative, 222 00:14:46,040 --> 00:14:49,200 Speaker 1: and predatory she was with me. Were now defense attorney 223 00:14:49,320 --> 00:14:58,040 Speaker 1: Robin Thicker, Robin joining us from the Maryland and DC jurisdiction. Robin, 224 00:14:58,280 --> 00:15:01,400 Speaker 1: what's going to be her defense? Well? I think her 225 00:15:01,440 --> 00:15:04,160 Speaker 1: best offense is that they did not have sex and 226 00:15:04,160 --> 00:15:07,320 Speaker 1: that there's no proof that they did. I mean, they 227 00:15:07,360 --> 00:15:12,240 Speaker 1: obviously had the photos. UM. I can't understand why these 228 00:15:12,400 --> 00:15:15,680 Speaker 1: parents were so derrilic that they didn't know that their 229 00:15:15,760 --> 00:15:19,520 Speaker 1: child was supposedly going out night after night and then 230 00:15:19,600 --> 00:15:22,040 Speaker 1: coming back in the middle of the night. What were 231 00:15:22,080 --> 00:15:26,880 Speaker 1: they doing? UM? I think that that this woman um 232 00:15:27,120 --> 00:15:33,720 Speaker 1: needs counseling. Certainly she has some sort of mental defect 233 00:15:33,760 --> 00:15:37,520 Speaker 1: at this point where she knew what she was doing 234 00:15:37,720 --> 00:15:40,480 Speaker 1: was wrong, but yet she went ahead and did it anyway. 235 00:15:40,520 --> 00:15:42,560 Speaker 1: She didn't know right from wrong, And I think that 236 00:15:43,120 --> 00:15:45,720 Speaker 1: as a defensi attorney I would get her and counseling 237 00:15:46,440 --> 00:15:49,120 Speaker 1: so fast there ahead. Would you do know, Robin, you 238 00:15:49,200 --> 00:15:53,800 Speaker 1: just said to completely opposite defenses in one sentence. You said, well, 239 00:15:53,880 --> 00:15:55,840 Speaker 1: she knew it was wrong, and she went ahead and 240 00:15:55,880 --> 00:15:58,640 Speaker 1: did it anyway, but she didn't know right from wrong. Okay, 241 00:15:58,840 --> 00:16:02,240 Speaker 1: you know, Robin, you're so used to spinning your yarns 242 00:16:02,560 --> 00:16:04,960 Speaker 1: in front of jury's and they actually buy it. Guys, 243 00:16:05,080 --> 00:16:08,520 Speaker 1: Robin Ficker has a heck of a track record at trial. 244 00:16:08,600 --> 00:16:11,520 Speaker 1: But I picked up on that, Robin, she can't know 245 00:16:11,680 --> 00:16:14,920 Speaker 1: right from wrong and not know right from wrong, and 246 00:16:15,200 --> 00:16:17,480 Speaker 1: to throw it at me in the very same sentence, Robin, 247 00:16:17,840 --> 00:16:20,040 Speaker 1: I mean you didn't think we were going to catch them. 248 00:16:20,160 --> 00:16:25,080 Speaker 1: That's called being duplicitous um as as she was, because 249 00:16:25,080 --> 00:16:30,160 Speaker 1: she was obviously of projecting right points her away from you. 250 00:16:32,680 --> 00:16:35,360 Speaker 1: Now I know how you win so many trials. It's 251 00:16:35,440 --> 00:16:38,720 Speaker 1: like a snake charmer. I'm actually listening to you. Yes, 252 00:16:38,760 --> 00:16:42,480 Speaker 1: that's what you called. It was you that said it 253 00:16:44,000 --> 00:16:48,720 Speaker 1: to her husband. One image to her school fellow teachers, 254 00:16:48,800 --> 00:16:52,240 Speaker 1: and then quite another image to him. So she was 255 00:16:52,480 --> 00:16:55,240 Speaker 1: she was an actress, that's for sure. You know too. 256 00:16:56,160 --> 00:16:59,080 Speaker 1: Dr Bethany Marshall, l a psychoanalystic, reminds me when I 257 00:16:59,080 --> 00:17:02,080 Speaker 1: did my student teaching. Okay, I was set to be 258 00:17:02,280 --> 00:17:05,600 Speaker 1: an English teacher before I got admitted in a law school, 259 00:17:06,000 --> 00:17:09,000 Speaker 1: trying to get to university level. When I would go 260 00:17:09,040 --> 00:17:12,639 Speaker 1: into the teacher's lounge, they were in their sipping coffee, 261 00:17:12,720 --> 00:17:18,960 Speaker 1: reading actually knitting and Christ shang, okay, you don't really 262 00:17:19,080 --> 00:17:22,680 Speaker 1: think of them as picking up fourteen year old boys 263 00:17:23,200 --> 00:17:27,119 Speaker 1: for a booty call at eleven pm night, okay, And 264 00:17:27,200 --> 00:17:30,919 Speaker 1: the whole thing correcked wide open when the boy breaks 265 00:17:30,920 --> 00:17:33,840 Speaker 1: down crying and explains why his grades have gone down 266 00:17:34,560 --> 00:17:39,159 Speaker 1: because he started this sex relationship with his science teacher, 267 00:17:39,960 --> 00:17:42,439 Speaker 1: and then the next year she writes for him to 268 00:17:42,440 --> 00:17:47,080 Speaker 1: be her teacher's aid. I mean, really, you know, Nancy, 269 00:17:47,160 --> 00:17:49,399 Speaker 1: what it reminds me of. I've I've had a number 270 00:17:49,400 --> 00:17:52,479 Speaker 1: of patients who were molested by priests, and they were 271 00:17:52,520 --> 00:17:56,680 Speaker 1: actually referred to me by the local diocese here because 272 00:17:56,760 --> 00:18:01,639 Speaker 1: the the there's a victims therapy unit where they actually 273 00:18:01,640 --> 00:18:06,280 Speaker 1: pay for therapy for victims of abuse by priests, and 274 00:18:06,400 --> 00:18:10,880 Speaker 1: a lot of these victims the abuse started was some 275 00:18:10,960 --> 00:18:14,160 Speaker 1: kind of a relationship where the young man was made 276 00:18:14,160 --> 00:18:17,520 Speaker 1: to feel special around the age of maybe nine, ten 277 00:18:17,600 --> 00:18:21,439 Speaker 1: or eleven, and then they were given special duties with 278 00:18:21,520 --> 00:18:24,919 Speaker 1: the priest, and then it would progress to sex. But 279 00:18:25,040 --> 00:18:28,960 Speaker 1: then long after the sex was over, they still felt 280 00:18:29,000 --> 00:18:31,680 Speaker 1: obligated to the priests, like the priest had some sort 281 00:18:31,720 --> 00:18:34,119 Speaker 1: of power over them, and they talked a lot of 282 00:18:34,119 --> 00:18:36,639 Speaker 1: them talked about feeling stalked by the priest, like the 283 00:18:36,640 --> 00:18:40,480 Speaker 1: priest was very preoccupied with them, And I'm thinking about 284 00:18:40,520 --> 00:18:43,600 Speaker 1: that with this woman, that this is not just about sex, 285 00:18:43,680 --> 00:18:46,160 Speaker 1: but she's obsessed with this boy. I mean, she goes 286 00:18:46,240 --> 00:18:49,199 Speaker 1: to great lengths to pick him up at eleven o'clock 287 00:18:49,240 --> 00:18:51,640 Speaker 1: at night, to give him her cell phone, make him 288 00:18:51,640 --> 00:18:55,439 Speaker 1: a teacher's aid. The trauma for him is not just 289 00:18:55,560 --> 00:18:59,440 Speaker 1: going to be the sexual aspect, which is horrific enough, 290 00:19:00,160 --> 00:19:05,200 Speaker 1: but she has made him feel that he belongs to her, 291 00:19:05,400 --> 00:19:08,240 Speaker 1: He's obligated to her. She's not going to be okay 292 00:19:08,280 --> 00:19:11,840 Speaker 1: without him, that it's his fault that that that she's 293 00:19:11,880 --> 00:19:14,639 Speaker 1: going to jail, and that her marriage has broken up, 294 00:19:14,720 --> 00:19:17,080 Speaker 1: and she may be like a Mary kay La Turno 295 00:19:17,200 --> 00:19:20,119 Speaker 1: where she gets out of jail and she's still obsessed 296 00:19:20,160 --> 00:19:22,600 Speaker 1: with him. I mean, this is a preoccupation on her 297 00:19:22,640 --> 00:19:26,240 Speaker 1: part that could go on and on. Some some offenders 298 00:19:26,320 --> 00:19:30,160 Speaker 1: choose multiple victims. Sometimes they just have one and they 299 00:19:30,240 --> 00:19:33,000 Speaker 1: just gun for that one person, that that person is 300 00:19:33,040 --> 00:19:36,600 Speaker 1: the one person they want, and it lasts a lifestyle lifetime, 301 00:19:36,680 --> 00:19:40,080 Speaker 1: kind of like a stocking profile. Judge Wilcott and Jennifer 302 00:19:40,080 --> 00:19:43,560 Speaker 1: hold On one moment, Robin Ficker, I see that both 303 00:19:43,800 --> 00:19:48,040 Speaker 1: she the science teacher, and her firefighter husband have now 304 00:19:48,119 --> 00:19:51,879 Speaker 1: taken down all their social media. I'm sure that was 305 00:19:51,920 --> 00:19:55,480 Speaker 1: on purpose, because the more photos there are of her 306 00:19:55,680 --> 00:19:59,280 Speaker 1: floating around out there, the more fodder it is for 307 00:19:59,359 --> 00:20:03,200 Speaker 1: the media. Uh, and it can be used by the prosecution. Well, 308 00:20:05,080 --> 00:20:08,480 Speaker 1: I mean it's a cause celebra First of all, it's 309 00:20:08,520 --> 00:20:10,760 Speaker 1: gotten on the Nancy Gray Show. That's where it's going 310 00:20:10,800 --> 00:20:17,480 Speaker 1: to get the most coverage. But she The only thing 311 00:20:17,600 --> 00:20:20,000 Speaker 1: that I can see that she can do if they 312 00:20:20,000 --> 00:20:23,360 Speaker 1: can prove that there was sexual activity, is for her 313 00:20:23,440 --> 00:20:28,720 Speaker 1: to get into intensive counseling, go into an inpatient program. 314 00:20:29,240 --> 00:20:31,760 Speaker 1: I really can't see much else that she can do 315 00:20:31,960 --> 00:20:35,200 Speaker 1: if once they proved that indeed there was sex between 316 00:20:35,240 --> 00:20:37,280 Speaker 1: the two. I don't know if she made any statements. 317 00:20:37,480 --> 00:20:42,000 Speaker 1: I hope she didn't for her sake, UM and the husband, 318 00:20:42,040 --> 00:20:44,560 Speaker 1: I would just ignore what he's saying and what these 319 00:20:44,560 --> 00:20:46,879 Speaker 1: other people are saying to the media. Straight back to 320 00:20:47,320 --> 00:20:51,680 Speaker 1: Jennifer Szikowski with heavy dot Com, Jennifer, I understand she's 321 00:20:51,800 --> 00:20:56,480 Speaker 1: already been released from jail. Yes, that is correct from 322 00:20:56,520 --> 00:21:01,760 Speaker 1: my understanding from the court records, she was released released 323 00:21:01,760 --> 00:21:07,840 Speaker 1: on dollar bail, and yeah, she is. It didn't go 324 00:21:07,880 --> 00:21:11,160 Speaker 1: into length whether I'm sure she's wearing an ankle bracelet, 325 00:21:12,280 --> 00:21:15,600 Speaker 1: but you know she's not set to be arranged until 326 00:21:15,840 --> 00:21:20,080 Speaker 1: the twenty March, so what could happen in between that time? 327 00:21:20,720 --> 00:21:28,640 Speaker 1: You know, she had actually made contact with the teenage again, Um, 328 00:21:29,240 --> 00:21:33,320 Speaker 1: after all this, she's still contacting him. Well, this was 329 00:21:33,440 --> 00:21:38,879 Speaker 1: before the police for contacted. But I believe because of 330 00:21:39,480 --> 00:21:43,280 Speaker 1: you know, the divorce being piled on the twelve, I'm 331 00:21:43,280 --> 00:21:45,800 Speaker 1: sure that there were red flags that were that were 332 00:21:45,880 --> 00:21:50,920 Speaker 1: raised before that, and so she had left a message 333 00:21:51,760 --> 00:21:56,840 Speaker 1: for the boy on his cell phone and they're not 334 00:21:56,960 --> 00:22:00,359 Speaker 1: saying who. I'm assuming a parent probably was the person 335 00:22:00,920 --> 00:22:06,320 Speaker 1: who took the next call when she called out. Well, 336 00:22:06,359 --> 00:22:10,600 Speaker 1: another concern to me to Ashley Wilcot, juvenile judge and 337 00:22:10,880 --> 00:22:15,159 Speaker 1: founder of child crime watch dot com, did you know 338 00:22:15,240 --> 00:22:18,600 Speaker 1: the judge as she lowered her bond to twelve thousand, 339 00:22:18,680 --> 00:22:20,560 Speaker 1: five hundred dollars at me, she only had to put 340 00:22:20,640 --> 00:22:24,040 Speaker 1: up ash I know and it you know what makes 341 00:22:24,040 --> 00:22:26,080 Speaker 1: me sick about it is look at the charges that 342 00:22:26,160 --> 00:22:28,840 Speaker 1: she's been charged with and maybe they don't have the 343 00:22:28,920 --> 00:22:31,639 Speaker 1: evidence yet, but she needs to be charged with rape. 344 00:22:31,880 --> 00:22:34,240 Speaker 1: I mean, these are charges that she's going to get 345 00:22:34,240 --> 00:22:37,040 Speaker 1: a lower bond, she's gonna get out, she's gonna get probation. 346 00:22:37,359 --> 00:22:41,800 Speaker 1: But I don't understand why she has not been charged 347 00:22:41,800 --> 00:22:45,160 Speaker 1: with rape and other felonies that will ensure she doesn't 348 00:22:45,160 --> 00:22:47,399 Speaker 1: just walk out and bond and go go do about 349 00:22:47,400 --> 00:22:50,639 Speaker 1: her marry business and keep having these inappropriate relationships. I 350 00:22:50,680 --> 00:22:54,840 Speaker 1: don't get it either. Ashley Willcot with me, juvenile judge 351 00:22:54,920 --> 00:22:59,080 Speaker 1: and child advocate. Ashley, The thing is this, I've prosecuted 352 00:22:59,200 --> 00:23:04,080 Speaker 1: many a kid ace without DNA and it can be done. 353 00:23:04,119 --> 00:23:06,639 Speaker 1: You don't think a jury is going to believe it 354 00:23:06,680 --> 00:23:09,000 Speaker 1: when they see these photos and you know they've got 355 00:23:09,000 --> 00:23:13,520 Speaker 1: to be text messages, explicit text messages to show to 356 00:23:13,600 --> 00:23:16,840 Speaker 1: a jury to support a rape claim or childless station 357 00:23:16,920 --> 00:23:19,560 Speaker 1: claiming not only that, what was she taking him out 358 00:23:19,600 --> 00:23:22,200 Speaker 1: to do science experiments at eleven o'clock at nine? Do 359 00:23:22,240 --> 00:23:24,680 Speaker 1: you have a child who says that that she had 360 00:23:24,760 --> 00:23:28,119 Speaker 1: sex with him? There's no reason to not believe a 361 00:23:28,160 --> 00:23:30,720 Speaker 1: fourteen year old child that says this. That's where you 362 00:23:30,800 --> 00:23:33,760 Speaker 1: start and go from there back to Dr Bethany Marshall, 363 00:23:33,840 --> 00:23:38,000 Speaker 1: Ellie Psychoanlist. Dr Marshall. I don't understand why when someone 364 00:23:38,119 --> 00:23:42,480 Speaker 1: seemingly has it all. She's a twenty six year old brunette, 365 00:23:42,520 --> 00:23:46,879 Speaker 1: beauty again, she's I see this picture of her out 366 00:23:46,960 --> 00:23:53,000 Speaker 1: in the ocean. Uh, maybe on a boat or a kayak. 367 00:23:53,160 --> 00:23:56,600 Speaker 1: She's holding up a giant fish. She's got on a swimsuit. 368 00:23:57,520 --> 00:24:03,359 Speaker 1: She's beautiful, healthy, athletic, and a happy marriage to a 369 00:24:03,400 --> 00:24:07,439 Speaker 1: handsome young guy. The world in front of them. Why 370 00:24:08,119 --> 00:24:12,640 Speaker 1: be a predator on a little boy? You know, female 371 00:24:12,720 --> 00:24:17,200 Speaker 1: predators are very complicated. It's a very complicated disorder, and 372 00:24:17,840 --> 00:24:21,640 Speaker 1: I tend to think of the pathology as emanating from 373 00:24:21,640 --> 00:24:25,600 Speaker 1: the wish to be admired by somebody over whom they 374 00:24:25,640 --> 00:24:30,320 Speaker 1: have complete control. So with with male predators, sex is 375 00:24:30,359 --> 00:24:36,320 Speaker 1: the primary driver of the molestation. With female predators, the 376 00:24:36,400 --> 00:24:41,800 Speaker 1: emotional gratification or exploiting the child for emotional gratification is 377 00:24:41,840 --> 00:24:45,600 Speaker 1: the driver, and then sex comes afterwards. That's why I 378 00:24:45,640 --> 00:24:48,399 Speaker 1: feel that she's going to become preoccupied with him and 379 00:24:48,680 --> 00:24:52,159 Speaker 1: unable to break away. And that's that's further proof for 380 00:24:52,280 --> 00:24:54,600 Speaker 1: me that she needs to be behind bars for that 381 00:24:54,840 --> 00:24:59,040 Speaker 1: child's sake, because he needs to know that she is 382 00:24:59,240 --> 00:25:01,800 Speaker 1: locked up in a way and cannot get a hold 383 00:25:01,840 --> 00:25:04,760 Speaker 1: of him, or he's going to feel very vulnerable out 384 00:25:04,760 --> 00:25:07,679 Speaker 1: there in the world. This woman does not want an 385 00:25:07,720 --> 00:25:10,920 Speaker 1: age mate. It doesn't matter how handsome for firefight er 386 00:25:11,040 --> 00:25:13,679 Speaker 1: husband is and what a great life they have. He 387 00:25:13,760 --> 00:25:15,679 Speaker 1: has a voice and he has a mind, and he 388 00:25:15,720 --> 00:25:17,720 Speaker 1: can stand up to her, and she's not going to 389 00:25:17,800 --> 00:25:20,400 Speaker 1: be the kind of person who wants that. Alan. What's 390 00:25:20,400 --> 00:25:23,040 Speaker 1: our tip line number? Nancy. Police are asking that if 391 00:25:23,040 --> 00:25:26,639 Speaker 1: you know of any additional potential victims of this teacher, 392 00:25:27,040 --> 00:25:32,840 Speaker 1: contact the Sheriff's Department's Child Exploitation Unit at three six 393 00:25:33,600 --> 00:25:39,960 Speaker 1: three two three three seven four. Rushing around all day, 394 00:25:40,119 --> 00:25:44,560 Speaker 1: working hard to support your family, then suddenly you realize 395 00:25:44,600 --> 00:25:48,560 Speaker 1: something's off. Your daughter didn't make it to dance class. 396 00:25:48,640 --> 00:25:50,960 Speaker 1: Her nanny was supposed to take her. What went wrong? 397 00:25:51,080 --> 00:25:56,679 Speaker 1: You start calling around, and then you are trapped in 398 00:25:56,760 --> 00:26:04,000 Speaker 1: a nightmare when you learn your children have been killed. 399 00:26:05,440 --> 00:26:11,240 Speaker 1: It sounds like a nightmare, but it's true. That's what 400 00:26:11,480 --> 00:26:15,480 Speaker 1: is unfolding in a court of law right now. An 401 00:26:15,600 --> 00:26:21,919 Speaker 1: anguished mother breaks down in tears. She comes home to 402 00:26:21,960 --> 00:26:26,200 Speaker 1: find her children dead in the bath. She ran home 403 00:26:26,240 --> 00:26:29,440 Speaker 1: in a panic with her third child, Nessie when she 404 00:26:29,680 --> 00:26:35,760 Speaker 1: discovers Lucia had not made it to dance class, her husband, 405 00:26:36,200 --> 00:26:40,399 Speaker 1: hard working executive, was away on business. And then she 406 00:26:40,520 --> 00:26:46,119 Speaker 1: makes the horrific discovery. It is now playing out in 407 00:26:46,200 --> 00:26:49,160 Speaker 1: a court of law. Joining me right now. Crime Stories 408 00:26:49,200 --> 00:26:55,240 Speaker 1: investigative reporter John Limley, forensic expert, death singing investigator Joe 409 00:26:55,280 --> 00:27:00,119 Speaker 1: Scott Morgan and l a psychoanalyst Dr Bethany Marshall. I 410 00:27:00,200 --> 00:27:05,200 Speaker 1: remember when this happened, John, refresh my recollection of the facts. 411 00:27:05,640 --> 00:27:09,480 Speaker 1: What happened exactly? Well, if we go back to sort 412 00:27:09,480 --> 00:27:13,200 Speaker 1: of paint the scene, for the listener to say that 413 00:27:13,440 --> 00:27:17,880 Speaker 1: Marina krim Nancy loved being a mom would be a 414 00:27:18,000 --> 00:27:23,080 Speaker 1: huge understatement. She actually started and kept a blog of 415 00:27:23,119 --> 00:27:27,239 Speaker 1: her family's activity. She titled her blog Life with the 416 00:27:27,320 --> 00:27:31,879 Speaker 1: Little crim Kids, and in it, six year old Lucia, 417 00:27:32,200 --> 00:27:35,960 Speaker 1: three year old Nessie, and two year old Leo are 418 00:27:36,040 --> 00:27:40,920 Speaker 1: the stars. There are entries detailing ice skating outings, trips 419 00:27:40,920 --> 00:27:45,639 Speaker 1: to BlackBerry patches, and gingerbread decorating contests, all in the 420 00:27:45,680 --> 00:27:50,280 Speaker 1: family's Manhattan apartment. What shines through most is the sheer 421 00:27:50,640 --> 00:27:54,159 Speaker 1: delight that Marina takes in being a mom. She loves 422 00:27:54,200 --> 00:27:58,639 Speaker 1: these children but even super moms can use a little 423 00:27:58,640 --> 00:28:02,080 Speaker 1: help now and then. So after Leo came along, Marina 424 00:28:02,200 --> 00:28:07,160 Speaker 1: hired a nanny, her name yos Lyin or Tega, and 425 00:28:07,440 --> 00:28:11,160 Speaker 1: Yosslin would take the girls to ballet and art classes. 426 00:28:11,440 --> 00:28:16,280 Speaker 1: She blended into the crim household. Even when she was 427 00:28:16,359 --> 00:28:20,000 Speaker 1: with her own friends and family, Yosslin would bring out 428 00:28:20,000 --> 00:28:22,200 Speaker 1: photos of the kids as if they were her own. 429 00:28:22,920 --> 00:28:28,200 Speaker 1: This makes what happened all the more inexplicable and Nancy 430 00:28:28,240 --> 00:28:31,680 Speaker 1: to be perfectly honest chilling at the at the very least. 431 00:28:31,920 --> 00:28:35,560 Speaker 1: It's a typical fall day. Marina leaves Lucia and Leo 432 00:28:35,920 --> 00:28:39,640 Speaker 1: in Ortega's care while she takes NeSSI to a swimming 433 00:28:39,720 --> 00:28:43,880 Speaker 1: lesson at the nearby y m c A. Marina, as 434 00:28:43,920 --> 00:28:47,040 Speaker 1: you pointed out, made plans to meet Ortega at a 435 00:28:47,120 --> 00:28:51,400 Speaker 1: dance class for Lucia at five thirty that afternoon. Now, 436 00:28:51,760 --> 00:28:55,720 Speaker 1: Ortega didn't arrive on time, so after a while, Marina 437 00:28:55,800 --> 00:28:59,600 Speaker 1: grows concerned, and so she returns home to check on 438 00:28:59,640 --> 00:29:03,480 Speaker 1: the n and the children. When she arrives, she discovers 439 00:29:03,560 --> 00:29:07,600 Speaker 1: that the lights are off in the apartment, which puzzles her. 440 00:29:07,640 --> 00:29:10,360 Speaker 1: It seems like no one's home, so she goes back 441 00:29:10,400 --> 00:29:13,560 Speaker 1: down to the lobby and she asks the doorman if 442 00:29:13,600 --> 00:29:16,959 Speaker 1: he's seen the nanny the children seeing them leave. He 443 00:29:17,000 --> 00:29:20,680 Speaker 1: hadn't seen a thing, so Marina goes back up to 444 00:29:20,720 --> 00:29:25,120 Speaker 1: the apartment. She goes room by room and finally comes 445 00:29:25,200 --> 00:29:29,960 Speaker 1: to the bathroom. It's dark as well, so she flicks 446 00:29:29,960 --> 00:29:35,240 Speaker 1: on the light and what she sees defies imagination as 447 00:29:35,360 --> 00:29:39,720 Speaker 1: to how a human comprehends this. She finds her two children, 448 00:29:40,040 --> 00:29:44,920 Speaker 1: Lucia and Leo, stabbed to death, stacked one on top 449 00:29:44,960 --> 00:29:49,200 Speaker 1: of the other in the bathtub. Marina and her daughter 450 00:29:49,320 --> 00:29:53,560 Speaker 1: Nessie right there by her side, walk in just as Ortega, 451 00:29:53,840 --> 00:29:58,000 Speaker 1: sitting on the floor, is stabbing herself in the throat 452 00:29:58,240 --> 00:30:01,240 Speaker 1: in what authorities believe as an attempt to take her 453 00:30:01,240 --> 00:30:06,880 Speaker 1: own life. The children's father and Marina's husband, worked for CNBC, 454 00:30:07,160 --> 00:30:10,720 Speaker 1: Kevin Krim. He was just returning home from a West 455 00:30:10,760 --> 00:30:14,880 Speaker 1: Coast business trip when police stopped him as he got 456 00:30:14,880 --> 00:30:18,880 Speaker 1: off the plane there at jfk uh International Airport and 457 00:30:18,920 --> 00:30:25,080 Speaker 1: had to share with him the tragic news. I just overwhelmed. 458 00:30:25,480 --> 00:30:31,600 Speaker 1: I remember exactly when this happened. Dr Bethany Marshall, l 459 00:30:31,640 --> 00:30:34,920 Speaker 1: a psychoanalyst, you were with me. I think that night 460 00:30:35,840 --> 00:30:40,440 Speaker 1: on the air and the story was just so overwhelming, 461 00:30:40,560 --> 00:30:46,240 Speaker 1: I could hardly report the facts. And uh, I don't 462 00:30:46,280 --> 00:30:50,080 Speaker 1: know how you make a comeback from that. The woman Ortega, 463 00:30:50,440 --> 00:30:55,920 Speaker 1: the babysitter, had never shown any signs of mental illness. 464 00:30:55,960 --> 00:30:59,080 Speaker 1: She had been recommended to the mom by the mom's 465 00:30:59,160 --> 00:31:06,280 Speaker 1: own sister. She had gotten every advantage from the family. 466 00:31:06,880 --> 00:31:10,200 Speaker 1: She had never been late, she never even asked for 467 00:31:10,280 --> 00:31:13,160 Speaker 1: a raise. They paid her to fly home on vacations 468 00:31:13,200 --> 00:31:18,800 Speaker 1: to Dominican Republic. And uh I, I did not see 469 00:31:18,840 --> 00:31:22,560 Speaker 1: it coming at all. The family did not see it coming. 470 00:31:22,560 --> 00:31:26,080 Speaker 1: There were no signs. Dr Bethany. You know. Not only that, 471 00:31:26,240 --> 00:31:30,800 Speaker 1: but the crim family went and visited Ortega's sister and 472 00:31:30,920 --> 00:31:34,880 Speaker 1: stayed with her in the Dominican Republic. So this family 473 00:31:35,080 --> 00:31:38,240 Speaker 1: was the Crims were very invested in Ortega and in 474 00:31:38,320 --> 00:31:42,520 Speaker 1: her family. I think that what was happening is this 475 00:31:42,640 --> 00:31:48,280 Speaker 1: nanny had pathological simmering resentment towards the children and the parents, 476 00:31:48,360 --> 00:31:51,200 Speaker 1: for their wealth, for their love, for the good life 477 00:31:51,240 --> 00:31:53,760 Speaker 1: they lad. And this is what we often see with 478 00:31:53,840 --> 00:31:57,720 Speaker 1: caretakers that abused children. They're actually envious of the children 479 00:31:58,280 --> 00:32:01,600 Speaker 1: for having love and care. That's really at the bottom 480 00:32:01,680 --> 00:32:05,000 Speaker 1: of it, and her Ortego's own son had recently come 481 00:32:05,040 --> 00:32:07,280 Speaker 1: to the United States. She was having a hard time 482 00:32:07,280 --> 00:32:12,040 Speaker 1: paying for his tuition. Um, Marina Krim had given the 483 00:32:12,240 --> 00:32:15,160 Speaker 1: nanny extra work. I was paying her a hundred dollars 484 00:32:15,160 --> 00:32:18,600 Speaker 1: a week, I believe, to do some extra lighthousekeeping. And 485 00:32:18,680 --> 00:32:20,680 Speaker 1: it sounds like this was a turning point for this 486 00:32:20,760 --> 00:32:26,520 Speaker 1: housekeeper who became increasingly enraged at the workload. Rather than 487 00:32:26,560 --> 00:32:29,200 Speaker 1: appreciating what Marina Krim was trying to do for her, 488 00:32:29,360 --> 00:32:32,760 Speaker 1: she twisted it all in her mind is like an insult, 489 00:32:32,840 --> 00:32:34,959 Speaker 1: and here she was having to do more and more, 490 00:32:35,440 --> 00:32:39,640 Speaker 1: and so I think this rageful attack towards the children 491 00:32:40,160 --> 00:32:42,800 Speaker 1: was out of envy resentment. And I don't believe she 492 00:32:42,880 --> 00:32:44,720 Speaker 1: was trying to kill herself. By the by the way 493 00:32:44,800 --> 00:32:47,680 Speaker 1: Nancy this stabbing herself in the neck, I think it 494 00:32:47,760 --> 00:32:50,800 Speaker 1: was just a plea for sympathy. Um as Marina was 495 00:32:50,840 --> 00:32:53,200 Speaker 1: coming home. I think that's that's what she did to 496 00:32:53,240 --> 00:32:55,400 Speaker 1: try to make herself look crazy and get out of 497 00:32:55,440 --> 00:32:59,320 Speaker 1: the crime. You know. To Joseph Scott, Morgan, forensics expert 498 00:32:59,360 --> 00:33:03,560 Speaker 1: professor for Ensics Jackson State University, Joe Scott, I'm just 499 00:33:03,800 --> 00:33:08,440 Speaker 1: thinking about this nanny who had never exhibited any size 500 00:33:08,480 --> 00:33:12,600 Speaker 1: of mental illness at all. Her son, her seventeen year 501 00:33:12,640 --> 00:33:15,520 Speaker 1: old son, had come to live with her Um. She 502 00:33:15,680 --> 00:33:18,320 Speaker 1: had recently lost her apartment and it moved in with 503 00:33:18,360 --> 00:33:22,680 Speaker 1: her sister. She asked for extra work. The mom gave 504 00:33:22,720 --> 00:33:27,200 Speaker 1: her lighthouse keeping and was paying her extra money. The 505 00:33:27,360 --> 00:33:34,080 Speaker 1: resentment apparently just boiled over. What about the scene would 506 00:33:34,120 --> 00:33:36,680 Speaker 1: we be able to what evidence would be able to 507 00:33:36,800 --> 00:33:40,800 Speaker 1: use to determine whether it was premeditated or an act 508 00:33:40,880 --> 00:33:45,680 Speaker 1: of of insanity. I gotta say, Nancy, the fact that 509 00:33:45,720 --> 00:33:49,440 Speaker 1: she didn't do this in some random location in the home. 510 00:33:50,200 --> 00:33:53,800 Speaker 1: Both of these babies are in the bathroom, in specifically 511 00:33:53,880 --> 00:33:57,480 Speaker 1: in the bathtub, which gives me an indication that these 512 00:33:57,560 --> 00:34:01,040 Speaker 1: children were taken there for that specific purpose, in an 513 00:34:01,080 --> 00:34:04,240 Speaker 1: area that's probably smaller than the rest of the house, 514 00:34:04,320 --> 00:34:07,320 Speaker 1: that's confined, that's in an area that if you wanted 515 00:34:07,360 --> 00:34:09,640 Speaker 1: to clean up, you actually could. We see this with 516 00:34:09,719 --> 00:34:14,520 Speaker 1: a lot of killers. Um, and the fact that the 517 00:34:14,560 --> 00:34:18,719 Speaker 1: brutality of this thing is just almost unimaginable. We talked 518 00:34:18,719 --> 00:34:21,120 Speaker 1: about what the mother witness when she walked in. You 519 00:34:21,160 --> 00:34:25,239 Speaker 1: can just imagine this bathroom is painted in in the 520 00:34:25,280 --> 00:34:29,040 Speaker 1: blood of your children. Uh. This little boy, his name 521 00:34:29,680 --> 00:34:34,279 Speaker 1: was Leo. Uh he was he was uh stabbed or 522 00:34:34,719 --> 00:34:38,279 Speaker 1: cut at least five times. Now he's a little one. Now. 523 00:34:38,320 --> 00:34:40,759 Speaker 1: We talked about Lucia. Her her name, by the way, 524 00:34:40,840 --> 00:34:44,120 Speaker 1: what they called her was Lulu Um and Uh, she 525 00:34:44,239 --> 00:34:49,200 Speaker 1: fought back, Nancy, she fought back this This woman inflicted 526 00:34:50,000 --> 00:34:53,840 Speaker 1: what's estimated between twenty and thirty sharp force injuries on 527 00:34:53,960 --> 00:34:57,840 Speaker 1: this little girl. Uh. That's a sign of anger and 528 00:34:57,960 --> 00:35:01,799 Speaker 1: hatred and rage. And typically we refer to that as 529 00:35:02,280 --> 00:35:05,520 Speaker 1: as an overkill event, that you don't need that much 530 00:35:05,560 --> 00:35:08,359 Speaker 1: to kill somebody that this is and Dr Bethany can 531 00:35:08,360 --> 00:35:10,319 Speaker 1: really speak to this, probably, but there's a lot of 532 00:35:10,360 --> 00:35:15,480 Speaker 1: anger being directed at these children. And you know, Uh, 533 00:35:15,520 --> 00:35:17,680 Speaker 1: this woman stabbing herself in the neck. I don't know 534 00:35:17,719 --> 00:35:20,040 Speaker 1: what to make of that. She obviously didn't do a 535 00:35:20,120 --> 00:35:23,320 Speaker 1: very good job. She's still among the living. But uh, 536 00:35:23,360 --> 00:35:26,120 Speaker 1: just just what she did to these children just destroyed it. 537 00:35:26,400 --> 00:35:28,880 Speaker 1: Not not to mention what she's done to to the 538 00:35:28,920 --> 00:35:31,160 Speaker 1: mom and the daddy and this little kid that's left 539 00:35:31,239 --> 00:35:33,760 Speaker 1: behind as well, That she just ripped these people's lives 540 00:35:33,760 --> 00:35:36,560 Speaker 1: to shreds. You know, the prosecutor said, it will never 541 00:35:36,680 --> 00:35:42,080 Speaker 1: be known why the nanny Ortega kill the children, but 542 00:35:42,320 --> 00:35:48,400 Speaker 1: I do know this. The prosecutor insists it was intentional. Listen, 543 00:35:50,320 --> 00:35:57,600 Speaker 1: this defendant intentionally and savagely slaughtered Krim and Leo Krim, 544 00:35:57,680 --> 00:36:01,160 Speaker 1: murdering them in the family's apartment in the bathroom of 545 00:36:01,160 --> 00:36:05,040 Speaker 1: their apartment at fifty seven West seventy fifth Street here 546 00:36:05,040 --> 00:36:11,799 Speaker 1: in New York County. Lucilla was known as Lulu and 547 00:36:11,880 --> 00:36:15,279 Speaker 1: she was six years old. Leo had just turned too 548 00:36:17,560 --> 00:36:22,759 Speaker 1: and the defendant, this defendant, who was at the time 549 00:36:22,800 --> 00:36:27,359 Speaker 1: their fifty year old babysitter, was entrusted with their care, 550 00:36:29,239 --> 00:36:33,520 Speaker 1: and she viciously and violently attacked Lulu and Leo when 551 00:36:33,560 --> 00:36:36,200 Speaker 1: she was alone in the apartment with them, when she 552 00:36:36,280 --> 00:36:39,080 Speaker 1: knew that their mother was out of the apartment. When 553 00:36:39,080 --> 00:36:40,799 Speaker 1: she knew that their mother was with their three year 554 00:36:40,800 --> 00:36:42,960 Speaker 1: old sister, and she was alone with the children in 555 00:36:43,000 --> 00:36:47,759 Speaker 1: the apartment. As I said, the defendant waited until she 556 00:36:47,840 --> 00:36:49,920 Speaker 1: was sure that the mother was out of the apartment 557 00:36:50,239 --> 00:36:52,839 Speaker 1: before she returned to the apartment with Lulu and Leo. 558 00:36:52,920 --> 00:36:59,000 Speaker 1: That afternoon, took knives from the kitchen and repeatedly slashed 559 00:36:59,080 --> 00:37:02,680 Speaker 1: and stabbed them in the bathroom of the apartment, laying 560 00:37:02,719 --> 00:37:05,200 Speaker 1: their bodies on top of one another to lead out 561 00:37:05,239 --> 00:37:12,160 Speaker 1: in the bathtub. The evidence will show that the defendant 562 00:37:12,160 --> 00:37:15,560 Speaker 1: returned to the apartment on October two thousand and twelve 563 00:37:16,040 --> 00:37:21,480 Speaker 1: with Leo and Lulu just before four pm, and that 564 00:37:21,560 --> 00:37:26,120 Speaker 1: their mother, Marina Krim, frantically returned to the apartment at 565 00:37:26,120 --> 00:37:29,640 Speaker 1: about five twenty in the afternoon looking for her children. 566 00:37:31,960 --> 00:37:35,400 Speaker 1: In the approximately ninety minutes that the defendant was alone 567 00:37:35,400 --> 00:37:38,920 Speaker 1: in that apartment with Lulu and Leo, the ninety minutes 568 00:37:39,040 --> 00:37:42,040 Speaker 1: during which the Krims trusted her to care for and 569 00:37:42,120 --> 00:37:49,440 Speaker 1: protect their children, the defendant brutally butchered both children, splitting 570 00:37:49,480 --> 00:37:55,000 Speaker 1: their throats. The forensic evidence will prove to you that 571 00:37:55,080 --> 00:37:58,320 Speaker 1: although Leo two years old, was too small to struggle, 572 00:37:59,200 --> 00:38:03,239 Speaker 1: Lulu six years old, and she fought back. She knew 573 00:38:03,239 --> 00:38:06,040 Speaker 1: what was happening, She understood what the defendant was doing, 574 00:38:06,320 --> 00:38:11,200 Speaker 1: and she fought to live. But the defendant was bigger 575 00:38:11,360 --> 00:38:16,200 Speaker 1: and stronger, and the defendant repaid Lulu's resistance with almost 576 00:38:16,280 --> 00:38:19,040 Speaker 1: thirty different stab and slash wounds to her body and 577 00:38:19,080 --> 00:38:25,520 Speaker 1: her neck. Lulu also sustained cuts and abrasions to her 578 00:38:25,560 --> 00:38:28,759 Speaker 1: hands and arms that you will learn are consistent with 579 00:38:28,840 --> 00:38:35,400 Speaker 1: her defending herself, evidence of her fight to live. Both 580 00:38:35,480 --> 00:38:38,720 Speaker 1: Lulu and Leo suffered such severe and deep neck wounds 581 00:38:38,760 --> 00:38:42,680 Speaker 1: that the first emergency are officers unseen thought that they 582 00:38:42,719 --> 00:38:47,040 Speaker 1: may have been decapitated. Ladies and gentlemen, what I have 583 00:38:47,160 --> 00:38:52,440 Speaker 1: just told you, there's the undisputed truth that this defendant 584 00:38:52,600 --> 00:38:58,759 Speaker 1: killed those children on October twelve, That this defendant overcame 585 00:38:58,880 --> 00:39:02,800 Speaker 1: Lulu's resistance and killed her as well as her brother. 586 00:39:04,160 --> 00:39:08,719 Speaker 1: That this defendant slipped the throats of Lulu and Leo Krim. 587 00:39:08,719 --> 00:39:12,120 Speaker 1: That is the undisputed truth. That is the These are 588 00:39:12,120 --> 00:39:15,600 Speaker 1: the undisputed facts in this case, and these are the 589 00:39:15,600 --> 00:39:18,560 Speaker 1: facts and the evidence that will prove to you beyond 590 00:39:18,560 --> 00:39:23,600 Speaker 1: a reasonable doubt that the defendant intentionally murdered Lulu and 591 00:39:23,680 --> 00:39:28,520 Speaker 1: Leo Krim on October two, thou twelve, That she knew 592 00:39:28,560 --> 00:39:31,200 Speaker 1: what she was doing when she killed them, and that 593 00:39:31,280 --> 00:39:33,719 Speaker 1: she knew that killing them was wrong. The defense in 594 00:39:33,719 --> 00:39:37,120 Speaker 1: this case is the devil made me do it, defended, 595 00:39:37,200 --> 00:39:42,080 Speaker 1: claiming that she but the last thing she remembers before 596 00:39:42,080 --> 00:39:46,440 Speaker 1: waking up in the hospital after the murders, is the 597 00:39:46,480 --> 00:39:51,400 Speaker 1: devil taking her brother body. To make it more heinous, 598 00:39:51,400 --> 00:39:54,640 Speaker 1: the mom has to take the stand in front of 599 00:39:54,640 --> 00:39:58,600 Speaker 1: a jury and relive the moment she finds her children 600 00:39:59,360 --> 00:40:02,680 Speaker 1: dead in the bathtub in the family home. Yes, she did, Nancy, 601 00:40:02,840 --> 00:40:06,000 Speaker 1: and it was very emotional. But the judge wouldn't allow 602 00:40:06,080 --> 00:40:09,560 Speaker 1: cameras to be on during Marina Crim's testimony. But this 603 00:40:09,680 --> 00:40:13,759 Speaker 1: CBS reporter was in court and tells us what she said. 604 00:40:13,800 --> 00:40:16,640 Speaker 1: A defense attorney asked Krim about talking to police after 605 00:40:16,680 --> 00:40:20,680 Speaker 1: the murders. Krim grew upset and yelled, I don't remember 606 00:40:20,719 --> 00:40:23,080 Speaker 1: what I said that day. I was grieving in a 607 00:40:23,120 --> 00:40:26,480 Speaker 1: massive way. Krim testified a few weeks before the murders. 608 00:40:26,520 --> 00:40:29,000 Speaker 1: She saw the nanny quote looking at me with this 609 00:40:29,120 --> 00:40:31,840 Speaker 1: glare on her face that was just pure evil, a 610 00:40:31,920 --> 00:40:35,520 Speaker 1: really weird, mean look. As Krim left the stand after 611 00:40:35,560 --> 00:40:39,480 Speaker 1: finishing her testimony, she screamed at Ortega, you're evil and 612 00:40:39,560 --> 00:40:43,760 Speaker 1: you like this, You're getting pleasure. Back to John Limley, 613 00:40:44,040 --> 00:40:49,360 Speaker 1: Crime Stories investigative reporter, what motive, if any, have we 614 00:40:49,440 --> 00:40:51,920 Speaker 1: been able to determine? Not that motive has to be 615 00:40:51,960 --> 00:40:58,000 Speaker 1: proved trial, but what do authorities think played into this? Well, 616 00:40:58,200 --> 00:41:04,360 Speaker 1: not only authority investigators, but prosecutors and defense attorneys agree 617 00:41:04,480 --> 00:41:09,040 Speaker 1: on the fact that Jocelin Ortega repeatedly stabbed and killed 618 00:41:09,080 --> 00:41:13,360 Speaker 1: these two young children in her care. In the question 619 00:41:13,440 --> 00:41:17,680 Speaker 1: in court now is why and whether that even matters. 620 00:41:17,840 --> 00:41:23,239 Speaker 1: Opening statements in Ortega's murder trial have begun in Manhattan 621 00:41:23,320 --> 00:41:28,279 Speaker 1: Supreme Court, and Ortega stands accused of repeatedly stabbing to 622 00:41:28,360 --> 00:41:33,920 Speaker 1: death these two children. In opening statements, prosecutors detailed the 623 00:41:34,000 --> 00:41:37,920 Speaker 1: evidence surrounding the gory killings in which the two children 624 00:41:38,120 --> 00:41:41,319 Speaker 1: something I had neglected to mention from the outset, were 625 00:41:41,360 --> 00:41:45,120 Speaker 1: stabbed so many times that they were nearly decapitated and 626 00:41:45,239 --> 00:41:49,800 Speaker 1: left to bleed in a bathtub. But prosecutor Courtney Groves 627 00:41:50,080 --> 00:41:53,000 Speaker 1: has told jurors that they would not try to prove 628 00:41:53,200 --> 00:41:56,920 Speaker 1: a motive in the case, so rather than counter the 629 00:41:57,040 --> 00:42:01,800 Speaker 1: evidence of Ortega's role in the killing, defense attorneys argued 630 00:42:01,840 --> 00:42:07,799 Speaker 1: that Ortego was suffering from depression, was hearing voices, disassociating 631 00:42:07,920 --> 00:42:14,959 Speaker 1: from reality, and experiencing hallucinations. Yasil Rotega atter about five 632 00:42:15,080 --> 00:42:18,920 Speaker 1: PM as a result of mental disease of defect lack 633 00:42:19,200 --> 00:42:24,600 Speaker 1: substantial capacity to know or appreciate the nature and consequences 634 00:42:24,640 --> 00:42:28,719 Speaker 1: of her acts of her conduct. The evidence will show 635 00:42:28,760 --> 00:42:31,560 Speaker 1: that Ms Ortega suffered on that date, at that time 636 00:42:31,600 --> 00:42:38,080 Speaker 1: and before that date October from a chronic mental illness. 637 00:42:38,680 --> 00:42:41,440 Speaker 1: The evidence will show that she has a corroborated history 638 00:42:41,480 --> 00:42:46,080 Speaker 1: of hearing voices and dissociating from reality since the age 639 00:42:46,080 --> 00:42:50,359 Speaker 1: of sixteen. The defense will show that she suffered from 640 00:42:50,640 --> 00:42:58,800 Speaker 1: three discrete episodes of major depression disorder, psychotic thinking, dissociation, 641 00:42:59,520 --> 00:43:07,440 Speaker 1: order to visual and commands hallucinations as halftile hallucinations. Well, 642 00:43:07,480 --> 00:43:09,960 Speaker 1: if that's true, then to Dr Bethany Marshall, how came 643 00:43:10,040 --> 00:43:12,719 Speaker 1: what no one had noticed it? I mean you think 644 00:43:12,760 --> 00:43:15,439 Speaker 1: that mother would have kept Ortega on and she thought 645 00:43:15,520 --> 00:43:19,279 Speaker 1: she was having ideations in that manner. Oh yeah, I 646 00:43:19,280 --> 00:43:22,040 Speaker 1: I don't believe that she was hearing or seeing things 647 00:43:22,120 --> 00:43:24,840 Speaker 1: that weren't there. I mean, it takes an enormous amount 648 00:43:24,880 --> 00:43:30,080 Speaker 1: of energy and psychological organization to kill two young children. 649 00:43:30,239 --> 00:43:32,560 Speaker 1: All right, You you have to really think about it. 650 00:43:32,600 --> 00:43:34,560 Speaker 1: You have to be methodical, you have to know what 651 00:43:34,600 --> 00:43:38,799 Speaker 1: you're doing. This is not a disorganized attack. This was 652 00:43:38,840 --> 00:43:44,640 Speaker 1: an organized attack, which tells me that she was mentally together. Um. Also, 653 00:43:44,719 --> 00:43:48,080 Speaker 1: when you're depressed, you have no no energy. So whenever 654 00:43:48,160 --> 00:43:51,080 Speaker 1: people say, well, you know this guy went on a 655 00:43:51,160 --> 00:43:54,480 Speaker 1: killing rampage because he was depressed, I'm like, No, depressed 656 00:43:54,520 --> 00:43:57,359 Speaker 1: people lie in bed all day. They don't pick up 657 00:43:57,360 --> 00:43:59,759 Speaker 1: guns and kill people. They don't stab a child to 658 00:43:59,800 --> 00:44:02,880 Speaker 1: one to forty times. Um so no, I I just 659 00:44:03,040 --> 00:44:05,439 Speaker 1: I don't believe that she was struggling with her mental health. 660 00:44:05,480 --> 00:44:09,080 Speaker 1: I think she was struggling psychologically, but she was not 661 00:44:09,360 --> 00:44:12,919 Speaker 1: with anger, with anger, with anger, because I mean, think 662 00:44:12,920 --> 00:44:17,200 Speaker 1: about it, Dr Bethany. Here she is, um she can't 663 00:44:17,239 --> 00:44:20,880 Speaker 1: afford her apartment. Apparently, she moves in with the sister. 664 00:44:21,719 --> 00:44:24,360 Speaker 1: Her seventeen year old son joins her. She's been away 665 00:44:24,400 --> 00:44:29,200 Speaker 1: from her family, she's broke, and she's living in an 666 00:44:29,760 --> 00:44:36,040 Speaker 1: uh very wealthy home in Manhattan taking care of these children. 667 00:44:36,239 --> 00:44:39,520 Speaker 1: And the mom isn't working. The dad as an executive. 668 00:44:39,520 --> 00:44:41,759 Speaker 1: The mom works with the children all day long. She 669 00:44:41,800 --> 00:44:45,240 Speaker 1: had been a teacher before she quit. And I think 670 00:44:45,480 --> 00:44:51,120 Speaker 1: jealousy and resentment over somebody having more than you have. 671 00:44:51,600 --> 00:44:55,120 Speaker 1: That's what I always tell the twins. Don't look don't 672 00:44:55,160 --> 00:44:58,919 Speaker 1: look at what other people do, or have you think 673 00:44:58,960 --> 00:45:02,839 Speaker 1: about what you're doing? Okay? And how you can make 674 00:45:03,080 --> 00:45:06,359 Speaker 1: the best of what you have and count your blessings 675 00:45:06,880 --> 00:45:12,480 Speaker 1: because you know, jealousy is all the fun you think 676 00:45:13,280 --> 00:45:18,120 Speaker 1: they're having that is not necessarily true, you know, Bethanyone, 677 00:45:18,280 --> 00:45:21,160 Speaker 1: we were growing up, we were dirt poor. Okay, my 678 00:45:21,239 --> 00:45:24,279 Speaker 1: parents weren't like dogs. I didn't even know we were poor. 679 00:45:24,640 --> 00:45:29,360 Speaker 1: We I thought we were perfectly happy, looking and commenting 680 00:45:29,760 --> 00:45:34,120 Speaker 1: and being jealous of what other people have and resenting 681 00:45:34,800 --> 00:45:37,640 Speaker 1: your lot. I think it just drove her over the 682 00:45:37,680 --> 00:45:39,560 Speaker 1: agg I think it did too. There's a well known 683 00:45:39,560 --> 00:45:43,840 Speaker 1: psychoanalyst psychiatrist here in southern California read Malloy, and he 684 00:45:43,920 --> 00:45:46,319 Speaker 1: wrote a paper where he talked about the fact that 685 00:45:46,760 --> 00:45:51,399 Speaker 1: if you look at any violent crime, jealousy envy are 686 00:45:51,440 --> 00:45:56,600 Speaker 1: the basic motivators of all crimes. Jealousy is you're paying 687 00:45:56,600 --> 00:45:59,759 Speaker 1: more at tension to somebody else than me. Envy is 688 00:46:00,080 --> 00:46:02,880 Speaker 1: you have something that I want and I can't have, 689 00:46:03,160 --> 00:46:05,000 Speaker 1: and I'm going to blot you out because of it. 690 00:46:05,560 --> 00:46:08,280 Speaker 1: And so I imagine I sort of imagine this nanny 691 00:46:08,360 --> 00:46:11,000 Speaker 1: going with the mother to buy let's say the kid's 692 00:46:11,120 --> 00:46:14,440 Speaker 1: letters and thinking about her own child where maybe she 693 00:46:14,480 --> 00:46:17,200 Speaker 1: can't afford clothing or looking at a beautiful meal on 694 00:46:17,239 --> 00:46:19,719 Speaker 1: the table and thinking I wish I could be home 695 00:46:19,760 --> 00:46:23,560 Speaker 1: cooking for my son. But what happens is that the 696 00:46:23,719 --> 00:46:28,520 Speaker 1: feelings of longing turn into resentment, envy, hatred, and the 697 00:46:28,560 --> 00:46:32,480 Speaker 1: wish to eradicate the object of one's NVC. In my field, 698 00:46:32,480 --> 00:46:35,680 Speaker 1: that when we treat envious people, what we see is 699 00:46:35,719 --> 00:46:39,120 Speaker 1: that they always want to eradicate and destroy the object 700 00:46:39,200 --> 00:46:41,839 Speaker 1: of their envy. That's where envy ends up. Okay, you're 701 00:46:41,880 --> 00:46:46,000 Speaker 1: totally messing with my head right now. You're totally to 702 00:46:46,239 --> 00:46:52,920 Speaker 1: imagine that envy can take over your whole life. Yes, 703 00:46:53,719 --> 00:46:56,080 Speaker 1: how do you conceal that all day long? When you 704 00:46:56,160 --> 00:46:58,440 Speaker 1: work with somebody and yet you hate them? You know, 705 00:46:59,000 --> 00:47:01,480 Speaker 1: I think I've used this term before with you. But 706 00:47:01,480 --> 00:47:06,680 Speaker 1: but sometimes these these uh, homicidal people where what we 707 00:47:06,760 --> 00:47:11,320 Speaker 1: call the mask of sanity. They they are adept at 708 00:47:11,400 --> 00:47:14,359 Speaker 1: looking like they are like the rest of society. They 709 00:47:14,360 --> 00:47:17,719 Speaker 1: are adept at looking like they are getting along. But 710 00:47:17,800 --> 00:47:26,120 Speaker 1: it's kind of a false presentation that hides a very angry, sinister, pathological, 711 00:47:26,800 --> 00:47:32,080 Speaker 1: unempathetic interior. And I think that's what that external persona 712 00:47:32,239 --> 00:47:35,520 Speaker 1: cracked at some point and the inner monster came out 713 00:47:35,719 --> 00:47:39,120 Speaker 1: she said to the cop at the time. According to 714 00:47:39,160 --> 00:47:43,560 Speaker 1: the cop that the cops said she complained about her 715 00:47:43,640 --> 00:47:47,239 Speaker 1: job and the way she was treated. See, the mom 716 00:47:47,280 --> 00:47:50,880 Speaker 1: had no idea that there was anything wrong, yet she 717 00:47:51,200 --> 00:47:54,360 Speaker 1: is complained. She takes time after she murders the children 718 00:47:54,600 --> 00:47:58,520 Speaker 1: to complain about the way she was treated. Everybody to 719 00:47:58,640 --> 00:48:01,959 Speaker 1: watch this as it unfold. You can't go for live 720 00:48:02,040 --> 00:48:05,560 Speaker 1: coverage on crime online dot com, where we're streaming the 721 00:48:05,640 --> 00:48:09,719 Speaker 1: trial live. She actually thought about complaining about her job 722 00:48:09,840 --> 00:48:13,040 Speaker 1: after the murder's Bethany. I mean, that just proves what 723 00:48:13,080 --> 00:48:15,640 Speaker 1: we're talking about that she's in a very what what 724 00:48:15,680 --> 00:48:21,120 Speaker 1: I would call like a paranoid obsessional state, which what 725 00:48:21,239 --> 00:48:25,040 Speaker 1: that means is that she had the delusion that this 726 00:48:25,200 --> 00:48:28,480 Speaker 1: family was negatively affecting her well being. It was the 727 00:48:28,640 --> 00:48:31,680 Speaker 1: family's fault that she didn't have enough money, It was 728 00:48:31,840 --> 00:48:35,400 Speaker 1: Marina's fault that she couldn't pay for her child's school, 729 00:48:35,440 --> 00:48:38,160 Speaker 1: that somehow everything got laid at the feet of the family, 730 00:48:38,719 --> 00:48:41,879 Speaker 1: and there was nothing about her own agency, in her 731 00:48:41,880 --> 00:48:46,160 Speaker 1: own life that she could claim responsibility for to give 732 00:48:46,200 --> 00:48:49,719 Speaker 1: herself a better life. I mean, so resentful that she's 733 00:48:49,800 --> 00:48:53,480 Speaker 1: complaining to the police officer. I mean, that's really out 734 00:48:53,520 --> 00:48:57,440 Speaker 1: of control. She said, I had quote, I had to 735 00:48:57,480 --> 00:49:00,359 Speaker 1: do everything and take care of the kids work. Does 736 00:49:00,400 --> 00:49:03,080 Speaker 1: it maybe sit her only? And she wanted me to 737 00:49:03,120 --> 00:49:07,000 Speaker 1: do everything. Five hours of cleaning, And what the mom 738 00:49:07,120 --> 00:49:10,760 Speaker 1: is saying is that Ortega needed more money. So she said, Okay, 739 00:49:10,840 --> 00:49:12,759 Speaker 1: you know, do an hour or two cleaning each day 740 00:49:12,760 --> 00:49:14,920 Speaker 1: and I'll pay you more money. I mean, thinking she 741 00:49:15,040 --> 00:49:17,320 Speaker 1: was helping, right, Nancy, Have you ever had a friend 742 00:49:17,480 --> 00:49:19,120 Speaker 1: that the more you give to the friend and the 743 00:49:19,160 --> 00:49:21,640 Speaker 1: more you do for them, the more resentful and angry 744 00:49:21,760 --> 00:49:25,200 Speaker 1: they become towards you. You ever had that dynamic, I've 745 00:49:25,239 --> 00:49:27,960 Speaker 1: I've had that with people where you're actually trying to 746 00:49:27,960 --> 00:49:30,560 Speaker 1: help them out and every gift you give just stirs 747 00:49:30,600 --> 00:49:34,640 Speaker 1: a presentment. And that's because they can't tolerate that maybe 748 00:49:34,800 --> 00:49:38,280 Speaker 1: you have something better than them that you can offer 749 00:49:38,320 --> 00:49:41,400 Speaker 1: to them. That that makes them very enraged. And I 750 00:49:41,440 --> 00:49:44,600 Speaker 1: think that was the psychological situation for this nanny, that 751 00:49:44,680 --> 00:49:48,080 Speaker 1: she couldn't stand that the family had a better life 752 00:49:48,080 --> 00:49:51,040 Speaker 1: than she had. Basically she couldn't take it well. Of course, 753 00:49:51,120 --> 00:49:54,320 Speaker 1: John Limley, Crimes Toys investigative reporter, the Defense of Joining 754 00:49:54,360 --> 00:49:57,840 Speaker 1: tried to get all those statements thrown out. It didn't work. 755 00:49:58,040 --> 00:50:00,840 Speaker 1: They are coming into evidence, John Linley, as I understand 756 00:50:00,840 --> 00:50:04,759 Speaker 1: it correct. As they put it, Ortega's lack of the 757 00:50:04,920 --> 00:50:09,080 Speaker 1: motive is evidence in itself that she suffers from untreated 758 00:50:09,120 --> 00:50:13,799 Speaker 1: severe mental illness and belongs in mental healthcare rather than 759 00:50:13,840 --> 00:50:18,560 Speaker 1: being behind prison prison bars. It's been more than five 760 00:50:18,640 --> 00:50:21,799 Speaker 1: years now since Ortega was charged in the killings, and 761 00:50:21,840 --> 00:50:27,080 Speaker 1: the crims have waited. As Ortega's attorney, Valerie Van Leer Greenberg, 762 00:50:27,160 --> 00:50:30,440 Speaker 1: tried to convince the court that her client was mentally 763 00:50:30,560 --> 00:50:35,920 Speaker 1: unfit to stand trial. After several competent competency hearings, Judge 764 00:50:36,040 --> 00:50:40,320 Speaker 1: Gregory Caro has ruled that Ortego is indeed fit for trial. 765 00:50:40,400 --> 00:50:43,000 Speaker 1: Go to crime online dot com to watch the trial 766 00:50:43,400 --> 00:50:47,959 Speaker 1: as it occurs line Nancy. The parents, Kevin and Marina Krim, 767 00:50:48,080 --> 00:50:51,440 Speaker 1: released a video just before the trial started, asking the 768 00:50:51,480 --> 00:50:55,080 Speaker 1: public for positive thoughts and for financial support for the 769 00:50:55,160 --> 00:50:59,120 Speaker 1: Lulu and Leo Fund. Hi, everyone for here to give 770 00:50:59,120 --> 00:51:02,239 Speaker 1: you an update and to ask for your help. After 771 00:51:02,320 --> 00:51:05,480 Speaker 1: five long years, the criminal trial in our case is 772 00:51:05,520 --> 00:51:09,200 Speaker 1: getting started, and over the next few months, the story 773 00:51:09,239 --> 00:51:11,920 Speaker 1: of Lulu and Leo and our whole family will be 774 00:51:11,960 --> 00:51:15,439 Speaker 1: painfully in the news again. This trial will be very 775 00:51:15,440 --> 00:51:18,400 Speaker 1: hard for us and for a lot of you. We 776 00:51:18,440 --> 00:51:20,920 Speaker 1: feel like this community, all of you have been with 777 00:51:21,000 --> 00:51:24,200 Speaker 1: us all along through this whole experience. Even if you 778 00:51:24,320 --> 00:51:27,399 Speaker 1: never met Lulu Leo, you feel like you know them, 779 00:51:27,560 --> 00:51:30,239 Speaker 1: you love them, and you're inspired by them like we are. 780 00:51:31,040 --> 00:51:33,319 Speaker 1: So a lot of people have been asking us how 781 00:51:33,320 --> 00:51:36,080 Speaker 1: they can help, how they can support us during this 782 00:51:36,320 --> 00:51:42,120 Speaker 1: really horrible time, and we thought about it and we 783 00:51:42,200 --> 00:51:47,520 Speaker 1: realized that we're gonna handle this the way we've handled everything. 784 00:51:48,520 --> 00:51:52,880 Speaker 1: We're going to focus on the positive and the goodness 785 00:51:52,920 --> 00:51:55,839 Speaker 1: that's come out of all this. When you hear about 786 00:51:55,920 --> 00:51:59,279 Speaker 1: us on the news or we come up in conversation, 787 00:52:00,560 --> 00:52:03,120 Speaker 1: we want you to tell people about the Lou and 788 00:52:03,200 --> 00:52:06,799 Speaker 1: Leo Fund and the Choose Creativity Initiative and the ten 789 00:52:06,880 --> 00:52:11,640 Speaker 1: Principles of Creativity. This is the legacy of Lou and Leo, 790 00:52:12,239 --> 00:52:17,320 Speaker 1: and this is what matters. Nancy Grace Crime Stories, signing 791 00:52:17,360 --> 00:52:18,879 Speaker 1: off Goodbye friend,