1 00:00:00,200 --> 00:00:27,560 Speaker 1: Ridiculous History is a production of iHeartRadio. Welcome back to 2 00:00:27,600 --> 00:00:30,960 Speaker 1: the show, fellow Ridiculous Historians. Thank you, as always so 3 00:00:31,160 --> 00:00:34,000 Speaker 1: much for tuning in. Let's hear it for the man, 4 00:00:34,080 --> 00:00:38,000 Speaker 1: the myth legend, our super producer, mister Max over the 5 00:00:38,080 --> 00:00:40,000 Speaker 1: Counter Williams. 6 00:00:41,080 --> 00:00:45,760 Speaker 2: Max extra Strength Williams because he's strong, still over the counter. 7 00:00:45,960 --> 00:00:50,240 Speaker 1: Also sure never seen him under one. Uh that's mister 8 00:00:50,560 --> 00:00:51,479 Speaker 1: Noel Brown. 9 00:00:51,760 --> 00:00:54,800 Speaker 2: Yeah, I've been under a counter or two in my day. 10 00:00:55,720 --> 00:00:59,680 Speaker 1: And I know some accountants they call me Ben Bullen. 11 00:00:59,720 --> 00:01:02,880 Speaker 1: And this neck of the global woods, we've got a 12 00:01:02,920 --> 00:01:07,560 Speaker 1: story that honestly may not be appropriate for all listeners, 13 00:01:07,640 --> 00:01:11,760 Speaker 1: but we do find it fascinating and we can't wait 14 00:01:11,840 --> 00:01:16,680 Speaker 1: to thank our research associate Dylan for this one. So 15 00:01:16,760 --> 00:01:17,440 Speaker 1: thank you, Dylan. 16 00:01:17,760 --> 00:01:20,280 Speaker 2: Yep, big thanks right up front. And it's true this 17 00:01:20,319 --> 00:01:22,959 Speaker 2: one is a little maybe a little more along the 18 00:01:22,959 --> 00:01:25,080 Speaker 2: lines of something that you might see us talk about 19 00:01:25,080 --> 00:01:27,840 Speaker 2: on our sister pod stuff they don't want you to know, 20 00:01:28,800 --> 00:01:31,880 Speaker 2: but on the true crime side, and does involve bad 21 00:01:31,920 --> 00:01:35,040 Speaker 2: things happening to young people. So if that's triggering for you, 22 00:01:35,080 --> 00:01:36,960 Speaker 2: maybe skip this one. But we do think it's an 23 00:01:36,959 --> 00:01:38,600 Speaker 2: interesting history mystery. 24 00:01:39,360 --> 00:01:43,119 Speaker 1: And I will note behind the scenes we earlier had 25 00:01:43,160 --> 00:01:48,560 Speaker 1: a conversation where I realized every disclaimer in a podcast 26 00:01:48,960 --> 00:01:51,360 Speaker 1: kind of functions like an invitation. 27 00:01:51,240 --> 00:01:54,400 Speaker 2: You know, but at least you're putting up front and 28 00:01:54,480 --> 00:01:56,720 Speaker 2: letting the folks do with it what they. 29 00:01:56,680 --> 00:02:00,920 Speaker 1: Wilst up front, just like that sign at the entrance 30 00:02:01,040 --> 00:02:04,120 Speaker 1: to the city of dis on the edge of Hell 31 00:02:04,280 --> 00:02:14,080 Speaker 1: that says, abandon all hope you who enter here. We're 32 00:02:14,120 --> 00:02:19,240 Speaker 1: going back to September nineteen eighty two, when our super 33 00:02:19,240 --> 00:02:22,239 Speaker 1: producer and perhaps you yourself, mister Brown, were. 34 00:02:22,120 --> 00:02:27,400 Speaker 2: Not alive, not quite I was a year. Hence, September 35 00:02:27,440 --> 00:02:30,280 Speaker 2: of nineteen eighty two, there had been a string of 36 00:02:30,360 --> 00:02:33,920 Speaker 2: fatalities tied to extra strength til and All. Can we 37 00:02:33,960 --> 00:02:36,320 Speaker 2: also just say right up front here too, we're not 38 00:02:36,440 --> 00:02:39,240 Speaker 2: doing a character assassination piece on til and All. They've 39 00:02:39,240 --> 00:02:42,919 Speaker 2: already gotten bad enough as this given some of the 40 00:02:43,000 --> 00:02:46,360 Speaker 2: rhetoric coming out of the current administration. 41 00:02:46,080 --> 00:02:49,520 Speaker 1: Let's just say it plainly, folks, there is no hard 42 00:02:49,600 --> 00:02:53,520 Speaker 1: scientific evidence that thiland All or nor any of the 43 00:02:53,680 --> 00:02:58,680 Speaker 1: ingredients included in that brand name over the counter medication 44 00:02:59,680 --> 00:03:00,880 Speaker 1: would cause autism. 45 00:03:01,160 --> 00:03:03,559 Speaker 2: But what we do know is that harm was absolutely 46 00:03:03,639 --> 00:03:07,240 Speaker 2: caused by Thailand, although not in the way you might 47 00:03:07,320 --> 00:03:10,239 Speaker 2: think it was. It was tampered with and this is 48 00:03:10,280 --> 00:03:13,360 Speaker 2: also what led to some important regulations around over the 49 00:03:13,400 --> 00:03:19,160 Speaker 2: counter drug packaging. So Chicago, the Chicago Land area as 50 00:03:19,160 --> 00:03:21,919 Speaker 2: we love to call it, and locals as well, was 51 00:03:21,960 --> 00:03:25,799 Speaker 2: in a bit of a panic surrounding these these unfortunate 52 00:03:25,919 --> 00:03:29,800 Speaker 2: deaths tied to extra strength til and all the rest 53 00:03:29,800 --> 00:03:32,200 Speaker 2: of the world was paying attention, mind you, in the 54 00:03:32,240 --> 00:03:34,920 Speaker 2: form of newscasts, trying to see if this was going 55 00:03:34,960 --> 00:03:39,040 Speaker 2: to be a larger scale issue, if maybe some of 56 00:03:39,080 --> 00:03:42,120 Speaker 2: this whatever adulterance that made their way into the drugs, 57 00:03:42,160 --> 00:03:45,080 Speaker 2: the popular drugs, would find their way into their market. 58 00:03:45,160 --> 00:03:49,400 Speaker 2: So it was a massive pr scandal, and you know 59 00:03:49,560 --> 00:03:51,960 Speaker 2: the kerfuffle for the Tailanol brand. 60 00:03:52,400 --> 00:03:55,960 Speaker 1: Yeah, and it was indeed a moral panic up there 61 00:03:56,000 --> 00:03:59,720 Speaker 1: with the Satanic panic or the sale of witch trials 62 00:03:59,760 --> 00:04:04,080 Speaker 1: even and uh, what what authorities quickly figure out is 63 00:04:04,120 --> 00:04:10,240 Speaker 1: that the there are lethal doses of Thailanol branded products. 64 00:04:10,280 --> 00:04:15,480 Speaker 1: They were consumed by seven victims. But the active ingredient 65 00:04:15,560 --> 00:04:19,280 Speaker 1: here was not something that I should say, the fatal 66 00:04:19,400 --> 00:04:25,760 Speaker 1: ingredient was not something that Thailanol purposely included. Instead, uh, 67 00:04:25,880 --> 00:04:29,280 Speaker 1: the stuff these folks were consuming have been tampered with, 68 00:04:29,480 --> 00:04:33,920 Speaker 1: and the capsules the little pills. I like saying capsules 69 00:04:34,000 --> 00:04:38,880 Speaker 1: instead of us as, so say we all max get 70 00:04:38,920 --> 00:04:39,320 Speaker 1: on board. 71 00:04:39,560 --> 00:04:40,440 Speaker 2: So we uh. 72 00:04:40,760 --> 00:04:45,400 Speaker 1: What we found is that these capsules were laced with 73 00:04:46,080 --> 00:04:52,360 Speaker 1: potassium cyanide, which can be incredibly dangerous to human anatomy 74 00:04:52,600 --> 00:04:54,800 Speaker 1: in a high enough dose. 75 00:04:56,200 --> 00:04:59,760 Speaker 2: So ben I mentioned a little bit about packaging and 76 00:04:59,839 --> 00:05:06,120 Speaker 2: chain es that resulted from this formal event. So what 77 00:05:06,320 --> 00:05:10,880 Speaker 2: was it that allowed this suspected individual to gain access 78 00:05:11,200 --> 00:05:15,159 Speaker 2: to these over the counter drugs and put something dangerous 79 00:05:15,160 --> 00:05:15,640 Speaker 2: in them? 80 00:05:15,839 --> 00:05:20,280 Speaker 1: Yeah, let's get into it. So our story starts with 81 00:05:20,600 --> 00:05:28,279 Speaker 1: a manufacturer named McNeil Consumer Products. Their providence is back 82 00:05:28,320 --> 00:05:33,640 Speaker 1: in nineteen fifty five. They started as McNeil Laboratories. They'd 83 00:05:33,680 --> 00:05:39,120 Speaker 1: later split into McNeil Consumer Products that's their retail sales, 84 00:05:39,480 --> 00:05:45,320 Speaker 1: and then McNeil Pharmaceuticals those are their prescription drugs. They 85 00:05:45,640 --> 00:05:50,400 Speaker 1: first produced tylotol in nineteen fifty five. And it's the 86 00:05:50,560 --> 00:05:54,040 Speaker 1: name that it's the it's the brand name that they 87 00:05:54,200 --> 00:05:57,280 Speaker 1: give to the drug, A seed of benefit. 88 00:05:57,360 --> 00:06:04,800 Speaker 2: Nowzita ceda methodon seed to minofish. Okay, I'm making fun 89 00:06:04,800 --> 00:06:06,120 Speaker 2: of the President. Have you seen that clip where he 90 00:06:06,200 --> 00:06:07,320 Speaker 2: couldn't pronounce the word. 91 00:06:07,680 --> 00:06:09,839 Speaker 1: I'm not given that guy too much time. 92 00:06:10,240 --> 00:06:12,000 Speaker 2: And not trying to be politically here, but the dude's 93 00:06:12,040 --> 00:06:13,600 Speaker 2: not great at words. Let's just put it that way. 94 00:06:14,240 --> 00:06:18,599 Speaker 2: Ceda minifin indeed an analgesic and fever reducing drug, and 95 00:06:18,920 --> 00:06:22,119 Speaker 2: the company then is acquired in nineteen fifty nine, after 96 00:06:22,320 --> 00:06:24,000 Speaker 2: you know, having success with someone with a lot of 97 00:06:24,000 --> 00:06:26,960 Speaker 2: their pharmaceuticals by Johnson and Johnson, who you may have 98 00:06:27,040 --> 00:06:29,160 Speaker 2: heard of, has their fingers in a lot of different 99 00:06:29,200 --> 00:06:33,560 Speaker 2: product pies, from shampoos and baby wipes and diapers and 100 00:06:33,600 --> 00:06:37,279 Speaker 2: things to of course deep in the pharmaceutical, prescription and 101 00:06:37,440 --> 00:06:38,640 Speaker 2: over the counter industry. 102 00:06:38,880 --> 00:06:41,400 Speaker 1: Now I've heard of the first Johnson, but I have 103 00:06:41,480 --> 00:06:42,880 Speaker 1: no idea the second. 104 00:06:42,960 --> 00:06:44,920 Speaker 2: Second Johnson is a mystery. Nobody knows. 105 00:06:45,160 --> 00:06:48,400 Speaker 1: Maybe it's the Maybe it's the big Johnson from the 106 00:06:48,480 --> 00:06:50,360 Speaker 1: T shirts back in the nineties. 107 00:06:51,640 --> 00:06:53,760 Speaker 2: Did kids wear those at your school? I was always 108 00:06:53,800 --> 00:06:55,320 Speaker 2: so like made uncomfortable by this. 109 00:06:55,680 --> 00:06:59,080 Speaker 1: I always I always felt that that their parents were divorced, yeah, 110 00:06:59,360 --> 00:07:01,200 Speaker 1: or just very permissive. 111 00:07:01,960 --> 00:07:05,320 Speaker 2: So in nineteen seventy five, Bristol Myers, who you also 112 00:07:05,440 --> 00:07:07,839 Speaker 2: they're still around this day they find a great deal 113 00:07:07,839 --> 00:07:12,240 Speaker 2: of success with an over the counter version of a 114 00:07:12,320 --> 00:07:16,080 Speaker 2: tail and all equivalent called Datrill. And if I'm not mistaken, Ben, 115 00:07:16,120 --> 00:07:18,760 Speaker 2: at the point we're we're at in history now, Johnson 116 00:07:18,800 --> 00:07:21,160 Speaker 2: and Johnson still just doing prescription drugs. 117 00:07:21,640 --> 00:07:26,800 Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, they are the ones who when they acquire McNeil, 118 00:07:27,000 --> 00:07:32,320 Speaker 1: they say, Okay, this branded Aceeda menifin can only be 119 00:07:32,360 --> 00:07:37,280 Speaker 1: prescribed by a doctor, and our buddies Bristol and Myers 120 00:07:37,320 --> 00:07:40,840 Speaker 1: say we're going to sell a seed of menifin under 121 00:07:40,880 --> 00:07:43,040 Speaker 1: this other name, dat Trill. 122 00:07:43,200 --> 00:07:45,320 Speaker 2: They say nuts to that, and then they clean up, 123 00:07:45,400 --> 00:07:49,200 Speaker 2: leaving McNeil consumer products in the dust, eating their lunch basically, 124 00:07:49,320 --> 00:07:51,880 Speaker 2: which causes a reaction, of course, in the form of 125 00:07:52,120 --> 00:07:57,840 Speaker 2: them releasing a over the counter version branded extra strength 126 00:07:58,120 --> 00:08:02,360 Speaker 2: Tailan all five hundred milligrams, making it the strongest painter 127 00:08:02,520 --> 00:08:06,000 Speaker 2: leaver on the market and just eating up thirty four 128 00:08:06,040 --> 00:08:09,360 Speaker 2: percent of the worldwide market share of the industry. 129 00:08:10,040 --> 00:08:13,320 Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, and let's hear Max. Can we get a 130 00:08:13,320 --> 00:08:19,040 Speaker 1: fast forward? We were the kind of sound cute, great 131 00:08:19,440 --> 00:08:23,800 Speaker 1: fast forward. It's early in the morning, September twenty ninth, 132 00:08:24,080 --> 00:08:29,680 Speaker 1: nineteen eighty two, Chicago Metro Area specifically a suburb called 133 00:08:29,800 --> 00:08:34,000 Speaker 1: Elk Grove Village. There's a twelve year old kid. Her 134 00:08:34,080 --> 00:08:37,920 Speaker 1: name is Mary Kellerman. She has been complaining of a 135 00:08:37,960 --> 00:08:41,800 Speaker 1: sore throat, a running nose. She's not having the best morning. 136 00:08:42,280 --> 00:08:47,559 Speaker 1: So she gets one dose of this McNeil created extra 137 00:08:47,679 --> 00:08:51,040 Speaker 1: strength tile and all, and then her parents say, Okay, 138 00:08:51,400 --> 00:08:54,839 Speaker 1: take a sick day, go back to bed. Mary rest up, 139 00:08:55,840 --> 00:09:00,800 Speaker 1: And unfortunately it's seven am. Just a little bit later, 140 00:09:01,440 --> 00:09:04,120 Speaker 1: her parents come in to check on her and she 141 00:09:04,920 --> 00:09:09,520 Speaker 1: has passed away. So it's an innocent child deceased on 142 00:09:09,559 --> 00:09:14,400 Speaker 1: the bathroom floor. This makes national headlines, and this is 143 00:09:14,480 --> 00:09:21,400 Speaker 1: the origin of a moral panic because later that same day, 144 00:09:22,040 --> 00:09:27,600 Speaker 1: guys September twenty ninth, same day, twenty seven year old 145 00:09:27,679 --> 00:09:33,559 Speaker 1: postal worker named Adam Janis over in Arlington Heights, Illinois 146 00:09:34,520 --> 00:09:40,720 Speaker 1: dies and officially, even though he's just twenty seven, authorities 147 00:09:40,720 --> 00:09:45,320 Speaker 1: and doctors presume he has had a heart attack, which 148 00:09:45,360 --> 00:09:47,800 Speaker 1: can happen. It can happen, for sure, Ben. 149 00:09:48,000 --> 00:09:49,720 Speaker 2: But the thing is, you mentioned this idea of a 150 00:09:49,760 --> 00:09:53,440 Speaker 2: moral panic, and this certainly falls under that in terms 151 00:09:53,480 --> 00:09:57,760 Speaker 2: of well, everyone's out to kill our children. Now we 152 00:09:57,880 --> 00:10:01,200 Speaker 2: start to see worries about things like razor blades and 153 00:10:01,559 --> 00:10:04,480 Speaker 2: candy apples, you know, for trick or treating, and the 154 00:10:04,559 --> 00:10:08,200 Speaker 2: idea of getting poked with needles in movie theaters, you know. Like, 155 00:10:08,240 --> 00:10:10,520 Speaker 2: this is a great example of a thing that we 156 00:10:10,559 --> 00:10:15,240 Speaker 2: see in history numerous times, where in an isolated event, 157 00:10:15,520 --> 00:10:20,000 Speaker 2: then esteem and interpret it as the order of the day. 158 00:10:19,960 --> 00:10:25,000 Speaker 1: Right, launches a thousand ships of paranoia and concern. We 159 00:10:25,280 --> 00:10:29,480 Speaker 1: also launches copycats, let's say, launches copycats. That's true, that's 160 00:10:29,480 --> 00:10:32,840 Speaker 1: a great point. And we also we don't love the 161 00:10:32,840 --> 00:10:37,560 Speaker 1: word hysteria because of the etymology associated dispissive. 162 00:10:37,080 --> 00:10:40,720 Speaker 2: Right of the people, you know, experiencing genuine trauma. 163 00:10:40,920 --> 00:10:46,240 Speaker 1: Right, yeah, and this this leads us to an horrific 164 00:10:46,440 --> 00:10:52,800 Speaker 1: chain of events. Our buddy, Adam Janie, has a brother. 165 00:10:53,040 --> 00:10:56,320 Speaker 1: His brother is named Stanley. He has a sister in 166 00:10:56,400 --> 00:11:00,000 Speaker 1: law named Teresa. Now Stanley is twenty five years old. 167 00:11:00,400 --> 00:11:05,280 Speaker 1: His sister in law, Teresa is nineteen. They are also 168 00:11:05,320 --> 00:11:09,520 Speaker 1: in the Illinois area. They rush home after Adam's death, 169 00:11:09,920 --> 00:11:13,120 Speaker 1: as you do, to be with the family, and they 170 00:11:13,160 --> 00:11:18,200 Speaker 1: start getting headaches themselves, Stanley and Teresa. Of course, it's 171 00:11:18,320 --> 00:11:23,480 Speaker 1: because they're an intensely traumatic situation. So they go to 172 00:11:23,559 --> 00:11:28,720 Speaker 1: the home medicine cabinet, and they find a bottle of 173 00:11:28,800 --> 00:11:35,520 Speaker 1: tylodol in their dead relatives home in Adam's home. Later 174 00:11:35,640 --> 00:11:40,439 Speaker 1: research would verify this was the same bottle of tylodol 175 00:11:40,640 --> 00:11:46,240 Speaker 1: Adam Janis used when authorities initially assumed he had a 176 00:11:46,280 --> 00:11:47,160 Speaker 1: fatal heart attack. 177 00:11:47,480 --> 00:11:53,320 Speaker 2: Yeah. WTTW Chicago reports that there were six capsules missing 178 00:11:54,080 --> 00:11:56,960 Speaker 2: and there were three people dead. So Helen Johnson, the 179 00:11:57,000 --> 00:12:02,439 Speaker 2: public health nurse investigating and doing the search, basically realized, Okay, 180 00:12:02,480 --> 00:12:03,959 Speaker 2: this's got to be something going on with the. 181 00:12:03,880 --> 00:12:07,720 Speaker 1: Tilol, right, yeah, Because let's all recall that if you 182 00:12:07,840 --> 00:12:11,360 Speaker 1: buy over the counter tilt hall and over the counter 183 00:12:11,559 --> 00:12:14,760 Speaker 1: just meaning stuff you can buy without a prescription or 184 00:12:14,800 --> 00:12:18,679 Speaker 1: off the shelf, really right, right, Yeah, exactly, the bottle 185 00:12:19,000 --> 00:12:24,160 Speaker 1: is going to have a label that tells you how 186 00:12:24,280 --> 00:12:28,440 Speaker 1: many capsules or how many doses are in the thing 187 00:12:28,520 --> 00:12:31,640 Speaker 1: you're buying. So that's how she did the math. And 188 00:12:31,679 --> 00:12:36,679 Speaker 1: then let's fast forward, not too too much, just a 189 00:12:36,760 --> 00:12:40,680 Speaker 1: little a little more than two days later, forty eight 190 00:12:40,679 --> 00:12:41,280 Speaker 1: hours later. 191 00:12:41,520 --> 00:12:43,880 Speaker 2: Yeah, we see three more deaths following Tyland All use 192 00:12:43,960 --> 00:12:48,080 Speaker 2: from Mary McFarlane thirty one of Elmhurst, Paula prince of 193 00:12:48,880 --> 00:12:52,840 Speaker 2: this downtown Chicagogs and Mary Reiner twenty seven of the 194 00:12:52,880 --> 00:12:57,880 Speaker 2: suburb of Winfield. Early October of nineteen eighty two, investigators 195 00:12:57,920 --> 00:13:02,360 Speaker 2: started connecting the deaths with cyanide poisoning. 196 00:13:02,920 --> 00:13:06,280 Speaker 1: Yeah, and this is where we start to see the 197 00:13:06,320 --> 00:13:12,120 Speaker 1: puzzle pieces come together. So now we look back the authorities, 198 00:13:12,240 --> 00:13:15,079 Speaker 1: we should say, look back at the death of Adam Jannis, 199 00:13:15,840 --> 00:13:19,760 Speaker 1: the death of young Mary Kellerman, and they say, hey, 200 00:13:21,640 --> 00:13:24,760 Speaker 1: this may have a common cause. You know, it is 201 00:13:24,920 --> 00:13:29,640 Speaker 1: relatively unusual, even in the land of Italian beef and 202 00:13:29,679 --> 00:13:32,640 Speaker 1: deep dish pizza, for someone to have a heart attack 203 00:13:32,679 --> 00:13:37,640 Speaker 1: at twenty seven. So let's test for other stuff. And 204 00:13:38,000 --> 00:13:42,320 Speaker 1: this is where they say there is cyanide poisoning, and 205 00:13:42,559 --> 00:13:45,480 Speaker 1: everybody involved also took tail. 206 00:13:45,559 --> 00:13:49,000 Speaker 2: And all cyanide, by the way, exists as a powdery 207 00:13:49,160 --> 00:13:52,480 Speaker 2: substance with the smell of bitter almonds. You often here 208 00:13:52,640 --> 00:13:55,720 Speaker 2: referred to in literature like as you know, a sign 209 00:13:55,760 --> 00:14:00,160 Speaker 2: that someone's been poisoned, they smell bitter almonds. It's incredibly toxic, 210 00:14:00,240 --> 00:14:02,720 Speaker 2: and dose is as small as a fraction of a 211 00:14:02,760 --> 00:14:05,000 Speaker 2: teaspoon can cause instant death. 212 00:14:05,640 --> 00:14:11,240 Speaker 1: Yeah, as little as fifty milligrams. Now police are trying 213 00:14:11,320 --> 00:14:15,599 Speaker 1: to figure out a chain of custody for the tilanol, 214 00:14:15,679 --> 00:14:19,640 Speaker 1: which is an obvious order of operations for any investigation here. 215 00:14:20,080 --> 00:14:25,760 Speaker 1: They say the tampering must have occurred after thailanol left 216 00:14:25,800 --> 00:14:30,280 Speaker 1: the factory where it's made. So this logically means the 217 00:14:30,320 --> 00:14:36,160 Speaker 1: perpetrator must have taken thilan all packaging from local grocery 218 00:14:36,360 --> 00:14:40,280 Speaker 1: and drug stores there in the Chicago metro area and 219 00:14:40,360 --> 00:14:45,080 Speaker 1: then lace them with this poison, and then repackage them 220 00:14:45,680 --> 00:14:50,680 Speaker 1: and returned them to the store, hoping that someone would 221 00:14:50,760 --> 00:14:55,160 Speaker 1: buy them, knowing that someone would buy them honestly. So 222 00:14:55,440 --> 00:14:58,200 Speaker 1: this leads us to another thing, like, Okay, let's say 223 00:14:58,280 --> 00:15:02,920 Speaker 1: this way, ridiculous historians, Noel Max, we are Johnson and 224 00:15:03,000 --> 00:15:05,680 Speaker 1: Johnson and McNeil Consumer pro I mean. 225 00:15:05,640 --> 00:15:09,240 Speaker 2: The second Johnson. You must be the second Johnson, the mystery, 226 00:15:09,320 --> 00:15:10,360 Speaker 2: the mysterious Johnson. 227 00:15:10,440 --> 00:15:15,480 Speaker 1: You're right back, man two Johnson. Appreciate So McNeil Consumer 228 00:15:15,640 --> 00:15:19,720 Speaker 1: Products and Johnson and Johnson. We know we're in the boardroom. 229 00:15:19,880 --> 00:15:23,120 Speaker 1: It's a crisis. We know that we don't purposely put 230 00:15:23,320 --> 00:15:27,040 Speaker 1: cyanide in any of our stuff. How do we respond 231 00:15:27,160 --> 00:15:28,400 Speaker 1: to this public crisis? 232 00:15:28,960 --> 00:15:31,960 Speaker 2: Timing was of the essence which comes to play in 233 00:15:32,120 --> 00:15:37,440 Speaker 2: the title of a pretty important resource on crisis management 234 00:15:38,200 --> 00:15:40,840 Speaker 2: that had this to say about the title, by the way, 235 00:15:40,880 --> 00:15:42,960 Speaker 2: is the first twenty four hours a comprehensive guide to 236 00:15:43,000 --> 00:15:46,680 Speaker 2: successful crisis communication. The time in All Crisis is, without 237 00:15:46,720 --> 00:15:49,360 Speaker 2: a doubt, the most exemplary case ever known in the 238 00:15:49,480 --> 00:15:53,160 Speaker 2: history of crisis communications. I guess given them their pats 239 00:15:53,200 --> 00:15:56,120 Speaker 2: on the back, and any business executive who has ever 240 00:15:56,200 --> 00:15:59,280 Speaker 2: stumbled into a public relation ambush ought to appreciate the 241 00:15:59,320 --> 00:16:01,920 Speaker 2: way Johnson and Johnson responded to the Talent All poisonings. 242 00:16:02,120 --> 00:16:05,160 Speaker 2: They have effectively demonstrated how major business has to handle 243 00:16:05,200 --> 00:16:08,160 Speaker 2: a disaster. And I would imagine Ben a lot of 244 00:16:08,200 --> 00:16:10,280 Speaker 2: this has to do with a not trying to sweep 245 00:16:10,320 --> 00:16:13,600 Speaker 2: it under the rug and be making it into a 246 00:16:13,760 --> 00:16:17,680 Speaker 2: learning opportunity, you know, and saying, well, okay, this is 247 00:16:17,720 --> 00:16:20,960 Speaker 2: an industry issue as well. It's not deflecting, but saying 248 00:16:21,080 --> 00:16:25,320 Speaker 2: this is a matter of these products being too easily 249 00:16:25,800 --> 00:16:26,320 Speaker 2: tampered with. 250 00:16:27,640 --> 00:16:38,320 Speaker 1: So what did these guys do? Specifically, Let's give you 251 00:16:38,400 --> 00:16:44,120 Speaker 1: an anecdote from public relations assistant director for Johnson and Johnson, 252 00:16:44,640 --> 00:16:50,240 Speaker 1: Robert Andrews. Here's how the entire company learns about this, 253 00:16:51,120 --> 00:16:54,280 Speaker 1: As Andrews says, quote, we got a call from a 254 00:16:54,400 --> 00:16:58,240 Speaker 1: Chicago news reporter. He told us that the medical examiner 255 00:16:58,320 --> 00:17:01,480 Speaker 1: there had just given a press confer people were dying 256 00:17:01,600 --> 00:17:05,440 Speaker 1: from poison Tylan All. He wanted our comment, and it 257 00:17:05,680 --> 00:17:09,280 Speaker 1: was the first knowledge we had here in the department. 258 00:17:09,680 --> 00:17:12,760 Speaker 1: We told him we knew nothing about it. In that 259 00:17:13,000 --> 00:17:16,920 Speaker 1: first call, we learned more from the reporter than he 260 00:17:17,160 --> 00:17:20,520 Speaker 1: did from us. And this goes back to again the 261 00:17:21,400 --> 00:17:24,200 Speaker 1: Berg book. We're talking about the twenty four hour cycle 262 00:17:24,280 --> 00:17:28,439 Speaker 1: of response for PR. You'll also see that in an 263 00:17:28,520 --> 00:17:34,440 Speaker 1: Always Sunny and Philadelphia episode about Wolf Cola Boko Haram. 264 00:17:34,800 --> 00:17:38,880 Speaker 2: This is also not a spot that any PR manager 265 00:17:38,960 --> 00:17:42,280 Speaker 2: wants to be put in like this is literally, not 266 00:17:42,400 --> 00:17:44,439 Speaker 2: literally figuratively getting caught with your pants down. 267 00:17:44,520 --> 00:17:47,000 Speaker 1: You don't have time to hear yes, time to earn 268 00:17:47,080 --> 00:17:49,640 Speaker 1: that paycheck, my guy, You know what I mean. That's 269 00:17:49,840 --> 00:17:55,800 Speaker 1: that's crisis management. So this goes straight to the chairman 270 00:17:56,320 --> 00:17:59,639 Speaker 1: James Burke of Johnson and Johnson as well as the 271 00:17:59,760 --> 00:18:05,840 Speaker 1: chair of McNeil, David Collins. And so they form a 272 00:18:07,560 --> 00:18:10,840 Speaker 1: I would say, they form a special operations team of 273 00:18:11,040 --> 00:18:15,520 Speaker 1: crisis management. Seven members of what they call a strategy team, 274 00:18:16,119 --> 00:18:20,439 Speaker 1: and their first focus is, as you said, protecting the public. 275 00:18:20,880 --> 00:18:25,400 Speaker 1: Their second focus as a for profit company is saving 276 00:18:25,480 --> 00:18:27,040 Speaker 1: the reputation of Tail and all. 277 00:18:27,240 --> 00:18:29,680 Speaker 2: That's right. I guess a lot of times when we 278 00:18:29,760 --> 00:18:32,879 Speaker 2: think of PR or crisis management, we think of spin 279 00:18:33,320 --> 00:18:36,800 Speaker 2: and like, how do we you know, kind of deflect 280 00:18:36,840 --> 00:18:38,639 Speaker 2: a little bit, But that's not what they do. They 281 00:18:38,840 --> 00:18:43,920 Speaker 2: notify the US FDA immediately and they then undertake a 282 00:18:44,000 --> 00:18:48,359 Speaker 2: herculean recall of around thirty one million bottles, which cost 283 00:18:48,480 --> 00:18:52,320 Speaker 2: the company around two hundred and forty million dollars. They 284 00:18:52,440 --> 00:18:56,920 Speaker 2: decided to pull advertising for a time while they dealt 285 00:18:56,960 --> 00:19:01,000 Speaker 2: with this, and they offered a you know, for any 286 00:19:01,040 --> 00:19:06,760 Speaker 2: information leading to the apprehension or identification of the individual 287 00:19:06,840 --> 00:19:10,000 Speaker 2: or individuals who were tampering with these products. One hundred 288 00:19:10,040 --> 00:19:13,080 Speaker 2: thousand dollars was put on the table for that. James 289 00:19:13,280 --> 00:19:17,760 Speaker 2: Burke spoke to the public frequently through press conferences. He 290 00:19:17,920 --> 00:19:21,479 Speaker 2: went on sixty Minutes and at the time incredibly popular 291 00:19:21,840 --> 00:19:23,360 Speaker 2: Phil Donna Hugheship. 292 00:19:23,880 --> 00:19:27,760 Speaker 1: And again that's James Burke, the chairman of Johnson and Johnson. 293 00:19:28,840 --> 00:19:32,080 Speaker 1: They also established a call in line, a toll free 294 00:19:32,440 --> 00:19:38,080 Speaker 1: line for any new companies to receive daily updates on 295 00:19:38,400 --> 00:19:42,320 Speaker 1: the state of affairs, and they were helping law enforcement 296 00:19:42,840 --> 00:19:48,720 Speaker 1: try to hunt down the perpetrator because increasingly, as this 297 00:19:48,840 --> 00:19:55,840 Speaker 1: PR crisis is occurring, increasingly private companies and public investigators 298 00:19:56,359 --> 00:20:03,960 Speaker 1: are convinced that someone was someone was homicidal, that there 299 00:20:04,160 --> 00:20:08,119 Speaker 1: was a murderer out in the loose. And so the 300 00:20:08,200 --> 00:20:12,800 Speaker 1: next question is if we if we know people like 301 00:20:12,960 --> 00:20:16,280 Speaker 1: this exist, One we have to find them. And two 302 00:20:16,920 --> 00:20:20,200 Speaker 1: we have to realize that there is still Tilo and 303 00:20:20,280 --> 00:20:25,000 Speaker 1: All with its original packaging, even despite the recall. It's 304 00:20:25,080 --> 00:20:28,240 Speaker 1: still out there somewhere. So we have to make sure 305 00:20:28,600 --> 00:20:31,359 Speaker 1: this cannot happen again. And this is sort of the 306 00:20:31,480 --> 00:20:32,920 Speaker 1: silver lining of the story. 307 00:20:33,480 --> 00:20:39,280 Speaker 2: So the ultimate outcome of this drive from Johnson and 308 00:20:39,359 --> 00:20:43,520 Speaker 2: Johnson to protect the public and also protect their you know, shareholders, 309 00:20:43,640 --> 00:20:49,440 Speaker 2: And the bottom line was a successful remarketing of extra 310 00:20:49,520 --> 00:20:53,119 Speaker 2: strength tile and All including and this was kind of 311 00:20:53,160 --> 00:20:55,080 Speaker 2: a stroke of marketing genius if you think about it, 312 00:20:55,080 --> 00:20:58,320 Speaker 2: because it ticked both boxes. It protected the public, made 313 00:20:58,400 --> 00:21:01,320 Speaker 2: that a feature, and it also showed how much they 314 00:21:01,400 --> 00:21:04,720 Speaker 2: cared and kind of set a new precedent for packaging 315 00:21:05,240 --> 00:21:10,160 Speaker 2: of pharmaceuticals moving forward, in the tamper proof triple seal 316 00:21:10,520 --> 00:21:13,679 Speaker 2: packaging that they put front and center in their new marketing. 317 00:21:14,840 --> 00:21:19,920 Speaker 1: Yeah, and this is why those bottles are purposely inconvenient 318 00:21:20,119 --> 00:21:24,920 Speaker 1: to unscrew. There's a reason it exists. All other manufacturers 319 00:21:25,000 --> 00:21:29,680 Speaker 1: started following this queue as a great design. This new 320 00:21:29,800 --> 00:21:35,280 Speaker 1: packaging was accompanied by a consumer warning, again another thing 321 00:21:35,359 --> 00:21:40,120 Speaker 1: that became an industry standard. The company also offered any 322 00:21:40,240 --> 00:21:45,639 Speaker 1: consumer a two dollars and fifty cent coupon toward future 323 00:21:45,760 --> 00:21:49,679 Speaker 1: purposes if they had to throw away tilet All previously 324 00:21:49,840 --> 00:21:53,359 Speaker 1: because of the recal and unlike today, they didn't have to. 325 00:21:54,320 --> 00:21:57,160 Speaker 1: There wasn't a high barrier to proving that they bought 326 00:21:57,200 --> 00:21:58,800 Speaker 1: a previous tilet All bottle. 327 00:21:58,960 --> 00:22:00,439 Speaker 2: Yeah, there'd be no way to do that. I mean, 328 00:22:00,520 --> 00:22:02,879 Speaker 2: it was sort of like an honor system thing, and 329 00:22:03,400 --> 00:22:06,800 Speaker 2: no questions asked, which you gotta you gotta appreciate, you know. 330 00:22:06,920 --> 00:22:12,160 Speaker 2: And then another important outcome here involves the law, because 331 00:22:12,200 --> 00:22:14,880 Speaker 2: we know that the gears of you know, the government, 332 00:22:15,000 --> 00:22:19,960 Speaker 2: tend to grind pretty painfully slowly. But the fallout and 333 00:22:20,400 --> 00:22:25,200 Speaker 2: then crisis management efforts around this whole thing led to 334 00:22:25,320 --> 00:22:28,920 Speaker 2: some pretty quick work. When US Congress passed the tail 335 00:22:28,960 --> 00:22:32,160 Speaker 2: and All bill, piggybacking off of all of that drive 336 00:22:32,359 --> 00:22:34,960 Speaker 2: for public safety, to protect the public, the Johnson and 337 00:22:35,080 --> 00:22:37,920 Speaker 2: Johnson did this made it a federal offense to tamper 338 00:22:38,000 --> 00:22:41,280 Speaker 2: with consumer products. That was an eighty three just a 339 00:22:41,400 --> 00:22:44,639 Speaker 2: year later from from the events of the Thailand All murders. 340 00:22:44,680 --> 00:22:47,280 Speaker 2: And then in nineteen eighty nine the FDA followed suit, 341 00:22:47,520 --> 00:22:51,040 Speaker 2: making it law that manufacturers make all of their products 342 00:22:51,160 --> 00:22:51,760 Speaker 2: tamper proof. 343 00:22:52,119 --> 00:22:55,000 Speaker 1: Yeah, which is one of the again I call it 344 00:22:55,320 --> 00:22:59,040 Speaker 1: the worst best news. It's like when the FD the 345 00:22:59,280 --> 00:23:03,480 Speaker 1: FDA or cereal manufacturers say, okay, we've got a new law. 346 00:23:04,160 --> 00:23:07,200 Speaker 1: There's going to be only zero point two percent rat 347 00:23:07,280 --> 00:23:11,280 Speaker 1: feces maximum in your raisin brand. Hey, you're like, well, 348 00:23:11,800 --> 00:23:15,240 Speaker 1: thank you, But also how much rat feces was in 349 00:23:15,359 --> 00:23:15,919 Speaker 1: there before? 350 00:23:16,359 --> 00:23:19,120 Speaker 2: No more poisoning the tail and a Yes. 351 00:23:19,680 --> 00:23:25,080 Speaker 1: New announcement over the counter pain relievers are no longer 352 00:23:25,280 --> 00:23:29,760 Speaker 1: going to murder you. We've decided. We've also made the 353 00:23:29,880 --> 00:23:35,320 Speaker 1: bottles the kind of things that you know, hopefully make 354 00:23:35,400 --> 00:23:38,919 Speaker 1: it difficult for poisoners to contamony. 355 00:23:39,000 --> 00:23:40,879 Speaker 2: Yeah, well to do it quickly and effectively. And I 356 00:23:40,960 --> 00:23:43,160 Speaker 2: mean even if you were to get the top off 357 00:23:44,000 --> 00:23:46,879 Speaker 2: it's so fiddly that you probably get noticed and be 358 00:23:47,480 --> 00:23:49,119 Speaker 2: you wouldn't be able to do it at scale with 359 00:23:49,200 --> 00:23:52,200 Speaker 2: any kind of precision, and then the consumer would always be, 360 00:23:52,680 --> 00:23:54,600 Speaker 2: you know, clued in that someone had messed with it 361 00:23:55,040 --> 00:23:57,879 Speaker 2: by that sort of aluminum you know, air tight seal 362 00:23:58,119 --> 00:24:00,719 Speaker 2: that needs to make a little tupperware burp sound when 363 00:24:00,800 --> 00:24:02,000 Speaker 2: you when you get rid of him. 364 00:24:02,400 --> 00:24:06,560 Speaker 1: Yeah, the that that seal, you know, that pop we're 365 00:24:06,640 --> 00:24:10,040 Speaker 1: talking about is arguably even more important than the tamper 366 00:24:10,160 --> 00:24:15,960 Speaker 1: proof cap. So at this point we already shared that 367 00:24:16,240 --> 00:24:21,000 Speaker 1: there has been no one officially convicted of these seven 368 00:24:21,240 --> 00:24:27,000 Speaker 1: heinous murders. However, as our pal Dylan found, there are 369 00:24:27,440 --> 00:24:32,480 Speaker 1: at least three suspects. Maybe we start with Kevin Masterson. 370 00:24:32,880 --> 00:24:35,200 Speaker 2: Yeah, well, we'll breeze through some of these and get 371 00:24:35,240 --> 00:24:40,399 Speaker 2: to our prime suspect. Kevin Masterson was thirty five from Lombard, Illinois, 372 00:24:41,280 --> 00:24:45,040 Speaker 2: had a grudge against a grocery chain because of a 373 00:24:45,119 --> 00:24:48,120 Speaker 2: shoplifting incident that had occurred back in seventy five involving 374 00:24:48,160 --> 00:24:52,720 Speaker 2: his ex wife. She was roughed up by store security, 375 00:24:53,200 --> 00:24:57,320 Speaker 2: and he blames this event on the dissolution or the 376 00:24:57,760 --> 00:25:00,639 Speaker 2: deterioration of their marriage. It seems like, I don't know, man, 377 00:25:00,880 --> 00:25:03,000 Speaker 2: that doesn't seem like a cool thing to have happened 378 00:25:03,040 --> 00:25:06,600 Speaker 2: to somebody, especially if she was innocent. But he's projecting 379 00:25:06,680 --> 00:25:09,120 Speaker 2: there a little bit, I would argue, right. Police ultimately 380 00:25:09,400 --> 00:25:13,520 Speaker 2: took a look at Masterson because of his known frustrations 381 00:25:13,600 --> 00:25:16,840 Speaker 2: and grudge beef with the grocery chain and the fact 382 00:25:16,880 --> 00:25:20,040 Speaker 2: that lethal doses of les talamal were purchased from this 383 00:25:20,240 --> 00:25:21,240 Speaker 2: chain of stores. 384 00:25:21,160 --> 00:25:24,399 Speaker 1: From jewel Osco. And keep in mind Vokes for the 385 00:25:24,640 --> 00:25:28,200 Speaker 1: context of the day here in the early eighties, the 386 00:25:28,440 --> 00:25:31,639 Speaker 1: police are now on the hook of public opinions, so 387 00:25:31,800 --> 00:25:35,200 Speaker 1: they have to find find someone. Yeah, and there's this 388 00:25:35,880 --> 00:25:39,960 Speaker 1: nationwide manhunt, very expensive one as a result, to find 389 00:25:40,560 --> 00:25:43,800 Speaker 1: Kevin Masterson. It lasts for about a month, for about 390 00:25:44,040 --> 00:25:49,119 Speaker 1: four weeks, until he peacefully turns himself in at the 391 00:25:49,440 --> 00:25:53,680 Speaker 1: an FBI office in Los Angeles, and they say, well, 392 00:25:53,840 --> 00:25:57,399 Speaker 1: where the heck were you for a month, And he says, 393 00:25:57,640 --> 00:26:02,120 Speaker 1: I got super frightened. You know you guys are the FBI. 394 00:26:02,359 --> 00:26:05,000 Speaker 1: I heard you were after me, and I said, I'm 395 00:26:05,040 --> 00:26:07,560 Speaker 1: gonna go off the grid, so I've been living in 396 00:26:07,640 --> 00:26:12,240 Speaker 1: my car in the desert. They take him in right, 397 00:26:12,440 --> 00:26:17,240 Speaker 1: and he is incarcerated briefly and he has a huge breakdown. 398 00:26:17,720 --> 00:26:20,760 Speaker 1: This is the worst moment of his life, even after 399 00:26:20,920 --> 00:26:23,359 Speaker 1: his you know, divorce, which is a horrible time for 400 00:26:23,400 --> 00:26:27,760 Speaker 1: a lot of people. He is throwing stuff around in 401 00:26:27,880 --> 00:26:32,840 Speaker 1: his cell. He is smearing, he's literally smearing his poop 402 00:26:32,920 --> 00:26:33,480 Speaker 1: on the wall. 403 00:26:33,720 --> 00:26:36,560 Speaker 2: Yikes. Yeah, they put in the hole. Yeah, well, all 404 00:26:36,600 --> 00:26:40,000 Speaker 2: of this because he's absolutely sick of being referred to 405 00:26:40,160 --> 00:26:42,800 Speaker 2: as the Tail and All Killer by other rights. 406 00:26:42,920 --> 00:26:46,080 Speaker 1: Right, so they put him in the hole in solitary confinement. 407 00:26:47,040 --> 00:26:51,200 Speaker 1: He's having this meltdown because everybody is treating him like 408 00:26:51,359 --> 00:26:56,080 Speaker 1: he did this, And ultimately police go through his apartment. 409 00:26:56,800 --> 00:27:01,080 Speaker 1: They find what they describe as disturbing letters ind gelatine 410 00:27:01,240 --> 00:27:05,320 Speaker 1: capsules that would be used for making illicit drugs. But 411 00:27:05,440 --> 00:27:09,240 Speaker 1: they don't see any Tail and All branding on these 412 00:27:09,400 --> 00:27:14,240 Speaker 1: caps which means that ultimately he might be involved with 413 00:27:14,359 --> 00:27:17,560 Speaker 1: some nefarious stuff, but he is not our Tail and 414 00:27:17,640 --> 00:27:21,200 Speaker 1: All Killer, which brings us to the next suspect on 415 00:27:21,320 --> 00:27:21,680 Speaker 1: the list. 416 00:27:21,920 --> 00:27:25,159 Speaker 2: Yeah, this guy Masterson seemed like a dude struggling with 417 00:27:25,200 --> 00:27:28,200 Speaker 2: some mental health issues and having a bit of a crisis, 418 00:27:28,720 --> 00:27:31,359 Speaker 2: and he got swept up In this Roger Arnold is 419 00:27:31,400 --> 00:27:35,120 Speaker 2: our next potential suspect. Even more interesting, actually, the forty 420 00:27:35,119 --> 00:27:39,760 Speaker 2: eight year old doc worker for Jewel Grocery and Melrose Park, 421 00:27:40,160 --> 00:27:44,200 Speaker 2: whose wife was under psychiatric care at Central du Page Hospital, 422 00:27:44,920 --> 00:27:49,200 Speaker 2: which also was coincidentally, it would seem, the same hospital 423 00:27:49,240 --> 00:27:52,600 Speaker 2: that Mary Reiner gave birth her fourth child just days 424 00:27:52,640 --> 00:27:56,840 Speaker 2: before her death, also was located across from Fran Foods, 425 00:27:57,080 --> 00:28:01,119 Speaker 2: which is where she purchased her lethal bottle of tonnel. 426 00:28:02,800 --> 00:28:07,119 Speaker 1: Yeah, and ultimately Arnold gets word that the police are 427 00:28:07,240 --> 00:28:12,760 Speaker 1: after him because a bartender bar owner over in Lincoln 428 00:28:12,880 --> 00:28:18,959 Speaker 1: Park says, hey, coops, Arnold has openly or Roger, who 429 00:28:19,040 --> 00:28:22,040 Speaker 1: must have been a regular there, has openly told other 430 00:28:22,280 --> 00:28:26,960 Speaker 1: patrons that he bought a bunch of cyanide just six 431 00:28:27,080 --> 00:28:30,840 Speaker 1: months earlier. Like he was hanging out with his pals 432 00:28:31,359 --> 00:28:34,119 Speaker 1: at the joint and he was saying, you guys know 433 00:28:34,200 --> 00:28:39,680 Speaker 1: what I buy cyanide. And ever since he told that story, 434 00:28:40,120 --> 00:28:43,640 Speaker 1: tall tale were true, we don't know he had been. 435 00:28:44,160 --> 00:28:47,200 Speaker 1: In the opinion of the bar folks there, he had 436 00:28:47,240 --> 00:28:51,680 Speaker 1: been acting anxious, squarely and strange. So the police still 437 00:28:51,720 --> 00:28:55,280 Speaker 1: on this man hunt, they search his apartment. It's October eleventh, 438 00:28:55,440 --> 00:29:00,320 Speaker 1: nineteen eighty two, and they fired a bunch of stuff, 439 00:29:00,560 --> 00:29:04,760 Speaker 1: pretty much all the guns, all the AMMO tons, knives, 440 00:29:04,960 --> 00:29:09,840 Speaker 1: and implements of violence, some of anarchist cookbook type materials. Yeah, 441 00:29:10,040 --> 00:29:14,320 Speaker 1: books on various nefarious activities. I was also going to 442 00:29:14,360 --> 00:29:17,560 Speaker 1: mention anarchist cookbook. I don't want to loop it in 443 00:29:17,760 --> 00:29:20,520 Speaker 1: too much with this, but yeah, it's on the money. 444 00:29:21,280 --> 00:29:23,560 Speaker 1: One of the books in particular was called The poor 445 00:29:23,720 --> 00:29:29,000 Speaker 1: Man's James Bond, which just I have a copy, but 446 00:29:29,160 --> 00:29:31,680 Speaker 1: just know you're going to get on a list depending 447 00:29:31,720 --> 00:29:34,400 Speaker 1: on how you acquire it, because it tells you how 448 00:29:34,520 --> 00:29:39,520 Speaker 1: to do very bad things in very easy, step by 449 00:29:39,560 --> 00:29:40,960 Speaker 1: step instruction format. 450 00:29:41,160 --> 00:29:45,240 Speaker 2: Yeah. He also had a bunch of lab equipment, beakers 451 00:29:45,320 --> 00:29:47,040 Speaker 2: and glassware and all that kind of stuff. So after 452 00:29:47,080 --> 00:29:50,480 Speaker 2: refusing to take a light detector tests us and aggressively 453 00:29:50,600 --> 00:29:54,280 Speaker 2: maintaining his innocence, he was, however, able to escape conviction 454 00:29:54,560 --> 00:29:57,840 Speaker 2: on these charges, only to get swept up in some 455 00:29:58,040 --> 00:30:02,240 Speaker 2: other chaos of his own about seven months later, when 456 00:30:02,440 --> 00:30:04,080 Speaker 2: he was charged with the murder of a man in 457 00:30:04,160 --> 00:30:07,640 Speaker 2: a Chicago bar who he believed originally is the one 458 00:30:07,640 --> 00:30:11,160 Speaker 2: who tipped off the police, saying that he was the 459 00:30:12,000 --> 00:30:12,880 Speaker 2: tailant all murderer. 460 00:30:13,480 --> 00:30:16,960 Speaker 1: Yeah, he came and found the guy that he thought 461 00:30:17,160 --> 00:30:20,800 Speaker 1: told law enforcement he was buying a bunch of poison. 462 00:30:21,840 --> 00:30:23,440 Speaker 2: So the guy also seemed mentally unwell. 463 00:30:23,680 --> 00:30:28,800 Speaker 1: Just gonna say he seems not an honors student. He 464 00:30:28,920 --> 00:30:33,000 Speaker 1: gets charged with thirty years in prison, he serves fifteen. 465 00:30:33,280 --> 00:30:36,720 Speaker 1: He passes away in two thousand and eight. He has gone. 466 00:30:37,080 --> 00:30:46,680 Speaker 1: He is not considered our prime suspect. One of our 467 00:30:46,800 --> 00:30:49,920 Speaker 1: long standing prime suspects. As we're wrapping up the show 468 00:30:49,960 --> 00:30:53,800 Speaker 1: here today is a guy named James Lewis, and our 469 00:30:53,840 --> 00:30:57,440 Speaker 1: research associate Dylan points out that this guy has the 470 00:30:58,120 --> 00:31:01,360 Speaker 1: IOJ Simpson esque I didn't do it, but if I 471 00:31:01,520 --> 00:31:03,080 Speaker 1: did kind of vibe. 472 00:31:04,000 --> 00:31:08,120 Speaker 2: Yeah, and you'll see why. First came onto law enforcement's 473 00:31:08,240 --> 00:31:12,880 Speaker 2: radar after sending a ransom letter asking for a million 474 00:31:13,040 --> 00:31:18,680 Speaker 2: bucks extorting Johnson and Johnson, claiming that this payoff would 475 00:31:18,760 --> 00:31:25,040 Speaker 2: would trigger an end to these killings. Right. He's always denied, however, 476 00:31:25,160 --> 00:31:28,560 Speaker 2: having any role in the killings and had a real 477 00:31:28,720 --> 00:31:31,240 Speaker 2: wacky explanation for why he sent the letter. 478 00:31:31,800 --> 00:31:35,160 Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, so walk with us here. This is a 479 00:31:35,320 --> 00:31:41,120 Speaker 1: little bit Rube Goldberg esque. He says he committed extortion 480 00:31:41,760 --> 00:31:46,760 Speaker 1: against Johnson and Johnson to get back at his wife's employer, 481 00:31:47,520 --> 00:31:53,640 Speaker 1: Lakeside Travel, because her paycheck bounced. When he gets incarcerated 482 00:31:53,760 --> 00:31:57,880 Speaker 1: for the extortion, which he definitely did, he goes to 483 00:31:57,960 --> 00:32:00,000 Speaker 1: the FBI or they come to him in the entil 484 00:32:00,000 --> 00:32:05,200 Speaker 1: irrigation room and he says, look, I didn't do it, 485 00:32:05,880 --> 00:32:09,200 Speaker 1: but if I were to do it, here's how I 486 00:32:09,360 --> 00:32:14,080 Speaker 1: would tamper with extra strength tile it all. Guys, I 487 00:32:14,280 --> 00:32:16,520 Speaker 1: call this the drill Boyd method. 488 00:32:17,040 --> 00:32:18,960 Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't. This is this is a This is 489 00:32:18,960 --> 00:32:21,920 Speaker 2: a tricky one. I'm trying to fully wrap my head 490 00:32:21,960 --> 00:32:25,560 Speaker 2: around this. I'm looking at an image. Okay, I do see. 491 00:32:25,640 --> 00:32:29,240 Speaker 2: Now this requires taking the pills home and doing this, 492 00:32:29,680 --> 00:32:34,800 Speaker 2: like you know, under controlled circumstances. Right. He made a 493 00:32:34,920 --> 00:32:37,240 Speaker 2: drawing where he demonstrated that someone could drill holes into 494 00:32:37,280 --> 00:32:39,960 Speaker 2: a piece of plywood a bit of a contraption, is 495 00:32:40,000 --> 00:32:42,440 Speaker 2: what Jeremy Margolis referred to it as, putting the bottom 496 00:32:42,560 --> 00:32:48,120 Speaker 2: capsules into the holes, putting cyanide on the top, scraping 497 00:32:48,160 --> 00:32:51,280 Speaker 2: it across to make clean up, make it a clean line, 498 00:32:51,440 --> 00:32:54,000 Speaker 2: I guess, with the bread knife with a bread knife, 499 00:32:54,720 --> 00:32:57,760 Speaker 2: and then removing any excess and then putting the tops 500 00:32:57,800 --> 00:32:59,840 Speaker 2: of the capsules back on, so you would be adding 501 00:33:00,200 --> 00:33:04,440 Speaker 2: a layer of the stuff into the kalent all gel 502 00:33:04,520 --> 00:33:09,120 Speaker 2: cap Yeah, which is so here's why this is fascinating. 503 00:33:09,600 --> 00:33:13,800 Speaker 2: So first off, this is pro level stuff. I'm just 504 00:33:13,880 --> 00:33:18,560 Speaker 2: gonna be honest. It's so pro level that to do this, 505 00:33:20,440 --> 00:33:23,400 Speaker 2: most people would not go to the trouble unless they 506 00:33:23,440 --> 00:33:30,640 Speaker 2: were specifically targeting someone, right, a particular individual, as Idiocracy says. 507 00:33:31,040 --> 00:33:34,800 Speaker 2: So this is a lot of work for the idea 508 00:33:34,880 --> 00:33:40,000 Speaker 2: of killing random menacent people you want to target if 509 00:33:40,040 --> 00:33:41,920 Speaker 2: you're going to put in this amount of effort. So 510 00:33:42,800 --> 00:33:48,120 Speaker 2: a lot of investigators, now professional, amateur, private, they see 511 00:33:48,680 --> 00:33:52,120 Speaker 2: Lewis as the prime suspect because of his criminal past, 512 00:33:52,760 --> 00:33:57,600 Speaker 2: because of his explanation, and also because of the death 513 00:33:57,800 --> 00:33:59,680 Speaker 2: of his five year old daughter. 514 00:34:00,080 --> 00:34:00,840 Speaker 1: Tony Ann. 515 00:34:01,640 --> 00:34:03,920 Speaker 2: He blamed the company. 516 00:34:04,000 --> 00:34:07,880 Speaker 1: He blames Johnson and Johnson for her death because he 517 00:34:08,040 --> 00:34:15,000 Speaker 1: believes that medication the company manufactured caused her expiration, caused 518 00:34:15,040 --> 00:34:15,680 Speaker 1: her demise. 519 00:34:16,000 --> 00:34:18,240 Speaker 2: Quite the motive, one might argue. 520 00:34:18,840 --> 00:34:22,520 Speaker 1: Cinematic, right, but then also, why is that not the 521 00:34:22,680 --> 00:34:24,440 Speaker 1: story he gave originally? 522 00:34:25,680 --> 00:34:28,800 Speaker 2: Well, we're talking about the story about the wife, his 523 00:34:28,960 --> 00:34:32,080 Speaker 2: wife's company on blast for a bounced check. 524 00:34:32,680 --> 00:34:38,359 Speaker 1: Right, So also law enforcement. It's clear we've all seen 525 00:34:38,680 --> 00:34:42,240 Speaker 1: things like law and order authorities here in the United 526 00:34:42,280 --> 00:34:45,560 Speaker 1: States are going to treat you very differently if you 527 00:34:45,680 --> 00:34:48,360 Speaker 1: have priors, if you have what we call a jacket. 528 00:34:48,840 --> 00:34:56,240 Speaker 1: So he has a complicated criminal pass including attempted murder. 529 00:34:56,520 --> 00:35:01,560 Speaker 1: In nineteen sixty six, his own optive mother. He came 530 00:35:01,680 --> 00:35:04,839 Speaker 1: at her with an axe in Missouri. They put him 531 00:35:04,880 --> 00:35:09,320 Speaker 1: in a mental hospital. This guy was never, you know, 532 00:35:10,360 --> 00:35:12,040 Speaker 1: the leader of the Kawanis Club. 533 00:35:12,600 --> 00:35:15,040 Speaker 2: Just over a decade later, in nineteen seventy eight, he 534 00:35:15,160 --> 00:35:18,640 Speaker 2: was accused of an actual murder and dismemberment of an 535 00:35:18,680 --> 00:35:21,640 Speaker 2: elderly man that he suspected of having defrauded him in 536 00:35:21,760 --> 00:35:23,680 Speaker 2: some way in Kansas City. 537 00:35:24,040 --> 00:35:26,520 Speaker 1: And so fast forward, as we said, he goes to 538 00:35:26,640 --> 00:35:30,920 Speaker 1: prison for extortion. He serves ten years, he's released on 539 00:35:31,280 --> 00:35:36,240 Speaker 1: October of nineteen ninety five, and then if we fast 540 00:35:36,280 --> 00:35:40,000 Speaker 1: forward a decade later, in two thousand and four, he 541 00:35:40,400 --> 00:35:45,960 Speaker 1: is charged with sexual assault, with rape and kidnapping in 542 00:35:46,080 --> 00:35:51,279 Speaker 1: a case that's eventually dropped. Yeah, real piece of work. 543 00:35:51,560 --> 00:35:54,640 Speaker 2: He did an interview on CBS in nineteen eighty four 544 00:35:54,800 --> 00:35:57,399 Speaker 2: that you can actually find there's a really great piece 545 00:35:57,480 --> 00:36:00,359 Speaker 2: that Dylan linked us to a CBS News d dive 546 00:36:00,520 --> 00:36:03,560 Speaker 2: I guess based on some of the reporting around the time, 547 00:36:03,880 --> 00:36:06,080 Speaker 2: and it has a clip from this interview, and it 548 00:36:06,160 --> 00:36:09,479 Speaker 2: has all of the court documents, one hundred and seventy 549 00:36:09,520 --> 00:36:11,919 Speaker 2: three pages of them. But the interesting thing that I found, 550 00:36:12,800 --> 00:36:14,960 Speaker 2: or a part that I found interesting, is the argument 551 00:36:15,000 --> 00:36:17,680 Speaker 2: that Lewis makes is that the letter he sent was 552 00:36:17,719 --> 00:36:22,279 Speaker 2: totally fine because it didn't it's not illegal. He says, 553 00:36:22,640 --> 00:36:25,200 Speaker 2: to send a letter like this if you don't have intent, 554 00:36:25,520 --> 00:36:26,960 Speaker 2: And there is no way that he could have had 555 00:36:26,960 --> 00:36:29,800 Speaker 2: any intent because the bank account he was requesting the 556 00:36:29,880 --> 00:36:33,279 Speaker 2: payment be placed in was a closed bank account and 557 00:36:33,400 --> 00:36:35,800 Speaker 2: it was a Continental Illinois Bank account that he didn't 558 00:36:35,800 --> 00:36:37,000 Speaker 2: have access to anymore. 559 00:36:37,480 --> 00:36:40,120 Speaker 1: Yeah, but again the issue I go back to is 560 00:36:40,200 --> 00:36:44,360 Speaker 1: the drill board method. Totally that's not public knowledge. So 561 00:36:44,719 --> 00:36:50,200 Speaker 1: if it's possible that interrogators were prompting him and sort 562 00:36:50,239 --> 00:36:52,719 Speaker 1: of guiding him to say those things, but if he 563 00:36:52,920 --> 00:36:57,760 Speaker 1: says that unprompted, if he already knows how it works, 564 00:36:58,200 --> 00:37:00,000 Speaker 1: that's a very dangerous person. 565 00:37:00,520 --> 00:37:01,200 Speaker 2: And they have. 566 00:37:03,560 --> 00:37:06,960 Speaker 1: They have a dark education, which most people don't possess. 567 00:37:07,239 --> 00:37:10,600 Speaker 1: So in two thousand and nine. As we're saying, the 568 00:37:10,760 --> 00:37:14,680 Speaker 1: FBI is still interested in this guy. They go back 569 00:37:14,800 --> 00:37:18,759 Speaker 1: to his domicile, they get more boxes of evidence, and 570 00:37:19,080 --> 00:37:24,080 Speaker 1: in September of twenty twenty two, he is interviewed by 571 00:37:24,200 --> 00:37:28,239 Speaker 1: the Federal Bureau of Investigation one last time before he 572 00:37:28,400 --> 00:37:34,200 Speaker 1: passes away. In twenty twenty three, the Chicago Thailand all 573 00:37:34,400 --> 00:37:38,839 Speaker 1: murders remain unsolved. But again, I want to go back 574 00:37:38,880 --> 00:37:44,200 Speaker 1: to the silver lining. It led to tamper proof bottles, 575 00:37:44,320 --> 00:37:48,640 Speaker 1: which should have already been a thing for everything I 576 00:37:48,680 --> 00:37:49,080 Speaker 1: don't want. 577 00:37:49,320 --> 00:37:52,960 Speaker 2: The more you know, I guess, yeah, the more you know. 578 00:37:53,239 --> 00:37:58,160 Speaker 1: And this is our episode for today. Thank you as always, 579 00:37:58,239 --> 00:38:01,320 Speaker 1: fellow ridiculous historians for two in thanks to our super 580 00:38:01,400 --> 00:38:04,960 Speaker 1: producer Max over the Counter Williams, and thanks to our 581 00:38:05,040 --> 00:38:07,760 Speaker 1: research associate Dylan Wade Clark. 582 00:38:08,320 --> 00:38:10,960 Speaker 2: Huge thanks to Alex Williams who can post our theme. 583 00:38:11,040 --> 00:38:14,400 Speaker 2: Chris Frosciotis and he's Jeff Cotes here in spirit, Jonas Strickling, 584 00:38:14,440 --> 00:38:17,000 Speaker 2: the Quizzer, aj Bahamas Jacobs, the Puzzler. 585 00:38:16,960 --> 00:38:21,040 Speaker 1: Doctor Rachel Big Spinach Lance our fellow rude dudes over 586 00:38:21,120 --> 00:38:24,879 Speaker 1: a Ridiculous crime. If you dig us, you'll love them. 587 00:38:25,320 --> 00:38:30,320 Speaker 1: And also, just by the way, folks, recently we learned 588 00:38:30,440 --> 00:38:33,640 Speaker 1: it was World Kindness Day. I want to say on 589 00:38:33,719 --> 00:38:38,560 Speaker 1: November twelfth. And if you were feeling kind if you're thinking, oh, 590 00:38:38,640 --> 00:38:41,560 Speaker 1: I like this show, I'd love to do something nice 591 00:38:41,640 --> 00:38:45,960 Speaker 1: for the gang. Well, if we may be so bold, 592 00:38:46,840 --> 00:38:50,000 Speaker 1: you can always get to your podcast platform of choice 593 00:38:50,040 --> 00:38:53,680 Speaker 1: and give us a rating. We like five stars if 594 00:38:53,719 --> 00:38:56,760 Speaker 1: you're feeling generous, because every time we get a good rating, 595 00:38:57,200 --> 00:39:01,000 Speaker 1: our boss text us and says, one more day. I 596 00:39:01,080 --> 00:39:01,840 Speaker 1: still don't know what he. 597 00:39:01,880 --> 00:39:04,440 Speaker 2: Means by that. I don't either. Yeah, hey, you know 598 00:39:04,480 --> 00:39:06,560 Speaker 2: what I man one day at a time. Happy to 599 00:39:06,640 --> 00:39:09,640 Speaker 2: be doing it with you, Bud. We'll see you next time. 600 00:39:09,680 --> 00:39:19,919 Speaker 2: Books For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, 601 00:39:19,960 --> 00:39:23,040 Speaker 2: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.