Speaker 1: Some folks have responded, it's his money, he can do
Speaker 1: what he wants. Sure, that's totally true. It is his
Speaker 1: money he can set on fire. However, where it becomes
Speaker 1: more complex is if he's betting so much and losing
Speaker 1: so much that he has to chase money, and that
Speaker 1: leads to complete reshifting of the entire professional golf landscape,
Speaker 1: which might or might not be exactly what happened. Then
Speaker 1: Fill's private gambling becomes a keen interest to the entire
Speaker 1: golf world.
Speaker 2: That got dats my head.
Speaker 3: Can't get him, joh And not the thing what I'm
Speaker 3: thinking about. Can't get him out, John, Not the thing
Speaker 3: what I'm thinking about?
Speaker 1: Hello? Is this allon Chipnook? Back for another The Fire Drill podcast.
Speaker 1: I'm in Los Angeles covering the US Women's Amateur Championship
Speaker 1: at Bell Country Club. Matt Janella is with us. He
Speaker 1: is in Ireland about to play in the Father's Son
Speaker 1: at Waterville. But we've reconvened. We've reconnoitered because we have
Speaker 1: the world exclusive first excerpt on Billy Walter's much anticipated autobiography, Gambler. Matt,
Speaker 1: you've seen the material. What do you think?
Speaker 2: I mean? You know, I've been around the golf you know,
Speaker 2: businesses as long as you have right, almost kind of
Speaker 2: came in the same time. It's been no you know,
Speaker 2: big secret that Phil, you know, is a betting man.
Speaker 2: He bets on you know, he bets on himself in
Speaker 2: the sense that that's the way he plays the game. Uh,
Speaker 2: there's there's a good jillion and you know rumors about
Speaker 2: his his off course gambling. We've heard of him betting
Speaker 2: on the Ravens to win the Super Bowl. You know,
Speaker 2: we don't hear a lot about the losses. We certainly
Speaker 2: don't know the nitty gritty. I remember at a Golf
Speaker 2: Digest photo shoot when we were at the bridges in
Speaker 2: Rancho Santa Fe and he rolled up in this black
Speaker 2: suv you know, sat in the parking lot for what
Speaker 2: seemed to be you know, upwards of a half an hour.
Speaker 2: It felt more, probably like two hours. We were just
Speaker 2: all sitting there waiting for him to get out of
Speaker 2: the car. You know, he was making his bets for
Speaker 2: the day. He then proceeded to show us the bulletproof
Speaker 2: glass that he had in his car, and we were like,
Speaker 2: why would why would Phil Micholson need bulletproof glass in
Speaker 2: see like what exactly is going on here? Like it
Speaker 2: just it was just a really ran them, you know,
Speaker 2: situation and odd quite frankly. But when you read this
Speaker 2: book excerpt and you hear about the details of what
Speaker 2: he was doing and how he was doing it, and
Speaker 2: the numbers, not only the numbers of bets, but the
Speaker 2: numbers associated to the financial component.
Speaker 1: Of all this. When the number is a B and
Speaker 1: not an M, yeah, well let's let's go to the numbers.
Speaker 1: Let's go to the numbers. Because people haven't seen this yet.
Speaker 1: It Billy Walters was Phil Nicholson's gambling partner. People think
Speaker 1: he was his bookie, but in reality they had this
Speaker 1: partnership and Billy, as he tells it, wanted access to
Speaker 1: Phil's books, including some offshore ones that he said had
Speaker 1: four hundred thousand dollars limits per game per bet, and
Speaker 1: because Billy was too good and he would get cut
Speaker 1: off by his own his own book makers, or they'd
Speaker 1: given really low limits like twenty k. But Phil was
Speaker 1: such a pigeon, He's like, okay, let's let's let's go
Speaker 1: into business. So Billy was also a meticulous record keeper
Speaker 1: because offshore betting, interstate gambling. You know, these are gray
Speaker 1: areas that especially ten or more years ago. And so
Speaker 1: he kept track of everything, so and he paid taxes,
Speaker 1: and he had a whole fleet of lawyers to kind
Speaker 1: of help him navigate the legality of this stuff. So
Speaker 1: this is These are some of the numbers from Billy Walters.
Speaker 1: This is the period between twenty ten and twenty and fourteen.
Speaker 1: He says, Phil bet one hundred and ten thousand dollars
Speaker 1: to win one hundred thousand dollars a total of one thousand,
Speaker 1: one hundred and fifteen times on eight hundred and fifty
Speaker 1: eight occasions, Phil bet two hundred and twenty thousand dollars
Speaker 1: to win two hundred thousand. When you do the math,
Speaker 1: that comes to three hundred and eleven million dollars just
Speaker 1: on those bets. According to Billy, in tw eleven, Michelson
Speaker 1: made three one hundred and fifty four bets, an average
Speaker 1: of nine per day. And he says on June twenty second,
Speaker 1: twenty eleven, Phil made forty three bets on Major League
Speaker 1: Baseball games, losing one hundred and forty four thousand dollars.
Speaker 1: And in that period that Billy's talked about twenty ten
Speaker 1: to fourteen, Micholson made over seven thousand wages on football, basketball,
Speaker 1: and baseball. And this is what you're alluding to, Matt.
Speaker 1: This is what Billy says. I'm reading from the book
Speaker 1: now based on our relationship, when I've learned from others.
Speaker 1: In all, Phil wagered a total of more than one
Speaker 1: a billion dollars during the past three decades. That's a
Speaker 1: billion with a B. Now, Billy's not privy to the
Speaker 1: wins and losses, but he estimates that Phil has lost
Speaker 1: in the neighborhood one hundred million dollars from from all
Speaker 1: those bets. I mean that that's real money, because what
Speaker 1: you know in the book, Billy quotes Phil as saying
Speaker 1: that Michelson's net worth is two hundred and fifty million dollars.
Speaker 1: It's probably grown since then. We know that we live
Speaker 1: golf and everything else. But if you're worth two hundred
Speaker 1: and fifty k and or two hundred fifty million and
Speaker 1: you're losing one hundred million, that is a massive percentage
Speaker 1: of Even if you're worth half a billion, you're losing
Speaker 1: twenty percent of that just gone. These are pretty staggering
Speaker 1: numbers and it's like you said, Matt, I mean, it
Speaker 1: was part of Phil's brand has always been he's a gambler.
Speaker 1: Everyone kind of knew it, and it was whispered about,
Speaker 1: But this is the first time we have the real receipts.
Speaker 1: In my biography, I had access to a source who
Speaker 1: saw some IRS documents and they put Phil's gambling losses
Speaker 1: at forty million dollars in that period twenty ten to fourteen.
Speaker 1: But that was just a snapshot. You know, Billy has
Speaker 1: more information, and clearly because he was the guy who
Speaker 1: was placing the bets and talking it over on a
Speaker 1: daily basis, and the volume is pretty incredible. When when
Speaker 1: you hear those numbers, what is your reaction?
Speaker 2: It's staggering, I mean, And also, you know, it's kind
Speaker 2: of it's a little bit like Tiger. When we heard
Speaker 2: and started seeing the numbers of women that Tiger had
Speaker 2: been with or all the different sort of relationships he
Speaker 2: was managing, it was like, how could he manage all
Speaker 2: of that and still have that level of success on
Speaker 2: the golf course. To me, it's a very similar reaction.
Speaker 2: Certainly a different situation, but the wherewithal the game as
Speaker 2: we know it is so complex and complicated and hard
Speaker 2: to you know, hard to master. You have to be
Speaker 2: right in your mind, in your spirit, in your soul
Speaker 2: and your convictions of of what you're capable of in
Speaker 2: order to execute on a day to day, week to
Speaker 2: week tour to tour like good. I mean, so that
Speaker 2: was kind of like my thought is like, oh my god,
Speaker 2: both of these guys have achieved this type of success
Speaker 2: while also juggling these what would be perceived to be
Speaker 2: shit storms off the course. It's, you know, in some
Speaker 2: ways it's actually really impressive. I mean, that's that many bets,
Speaker 2: tracking all that stuff. I mean, that's that's a lot.
Speaker 1: Well. I mean, yeah, it's remarkable that as you're saying
Speaker 1: that the two greatest golfers in the last you know,
Speaker 1: three decades had these these addiction issues. And you know,
Speaker 1: Phil has used the word addiction talking about his gambling.
Speaker 1: Tiger's been to treatment at least twice that we know
Speaker 1: of for addictions. And it always was that belief that
Speaker 1: to play the highest level of off you had to
Speaker 1: have a clear mind. But maybe it's the opposite. Maybe
Speaker 1: they needed that constant rush and that that that that
Speaker 1: that energy and the juice and then when they got
Speaker 1: between the ropes, that's when everything kind of quieted down,
Speaker 1: and that was their respite from all the chaos. And
Speaker 1: maybe that's why they could lock in during those four hours.
Speaker 1: I don't know it. It does put to lie what
Speaker 1: you know, golfers have always said, you know, when I'm
Speaker 1: going through divorce, when I'm whatever, I couldn't. I couldn't.
Speaker 1: I couldn't think about golf. I couldn't play golf. My
Speaker 1: father died. It affected my golf for two years. Like
Speaker 1: these guys just sailed through the chaos. It's remarkable.
Speaker 2: Speaking of chaos, twenty twelve, Ryder Cup. In this book excerpt,
Speaker 2: Billy says Phil calls him to try to put a
Speaker 2: bet on Team USA. Madna, Yeah, you know this. This
Speaker 2: was the Rider Cup, you know. Billy essentially says I'm
Speaker 2: not doing this. I'm not doing this now and says
Speaker 2: I don't know if he got the bet in or
Speaker 2: if he went somewhere else, but he came to me
Speaker 2: with the bet and I was like, you're crossing lines
Speaker 2: here that that I'm not comfortable being a part of.
Speaker 2: Pete Rose lines.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm going to read that passage because it's really
Speaker 1: interesting Phil calls him up from a dina, and of
Speaker 1: course this is Billy's words. He was so confident that
Speaker 1: he asked me to place a four hundred thousand dollars
Speaker 1: wager for him on the US team to win. I
Speaker 1: could not believe what I was hearing. Have you lost
Speaker 1: your fucking mind? I told him, don't you remember what
Speaker 1: happened to Pete Rose? I mean, it's pretty funny. And again,
Speaker 1: that was always the defense of Pete Rose, you know,
Speaker 1: advocates was that, well, when you're when you're betting on
Speaker 1: your own team, that's not really doing anything wrong because
Speaker 1: you're trying to win the game no matter what. But
Speaker 1: the counter argument is that when when you have that
Speaker 1: money and that stress, you might do things in the
Speaker 1: short term, that's that's not going to help the team
Speaker 1: over a long season. You're gonna burn up your bullpen
Speaker 1: because you got fifty thousand dollars on this game. You
Speaker 1: don't care, you're bringing all your you're bringing your closer
Speaker 1: in the third inning. If you have to write like
Speaker 1: it can affect your strategy. Now with Phil, he's used
Speaker 1: to you know, four thousand dollars is a third place
Speaker 1: check on the tour back then whatever he's used to
Speaker 1: playing for money, But it just speaks to a desperation,
Speaker 1: like the Ryder Cup has enough pressure, you need the
Speaker 1: extra juice of a bet. It's crazy. I mean, there's
Speaker 1: enough action between the ropes to the Ryder Cup, you
Speaker 1: need another four hundred k. Like it's it's insane. And
Speaker 1: as Billy says, we don't know if Phil plays the bet,
Speaker 1: but it speaks to his frame of mind. And we
Speaker 1: know Phil had other bookies and other avenues for placing
Speaker 1: bets because some of the stuff has come out in public.
Speaker 1: Like also going back to your bulletproof glass, Like you know,
Speaker 1: Phil is mixed up with Dandy Dawn. This this mob
Speaker 1: mobbed up dude in Detroit and that that became a
Speaker 1: whole public mess. There was this this you know, this
Speaker 1: guy Greg Silverian san Diego went to prison for you know,
Speaker 1: fraud related to this wire transfer that was sent to
Speaker 1: a high profile golfer the initials PM, That's what it
Speaker 1: said in the court documents. Like you know, there was
Speaker 1: this guy Brian Zerif who Phil was one of his
Speaker 1: betting partners, and he was allegedly you know, he wound
Speaker 1: up getting in trouble with the Feds allegedly it was
Speaker 1: linked to the Russian mafia. Like there's there was some
Speaker 1: shady characters very close to Phil ergo the bulletproof glass
Speaker 1: and so you know really didn't didn't take the bet,
Speaker 1: but we don't know who was the next guy Phil
Speaker 1: called and how big the number got. And if you
Speaker 1: remember the Miracle Medina, this is the Ryder Cup we're
Speaker 1: talking about. The whole thing flipped in singles when Justin
Speaker 1: Rose came back and beat Phil on the last last hole.
Speaker 1: You know Rose made that bomb on seventeen and then
Speaker 1: he takes the match. That was the key moment in
Speaker 1: this historic comeback for Europe. Now Phil was trying to win, Yes,
Speaker 1: of course he was, and if he was betting on himself,
Speaker 1: he was trying to win extra hard. But that's the
Speaker 1: whole point, Like there's already enough pressure. If Phil has
Speaker 1: some huge bet out there with some shady character, who
Speaker 1: for whom you need to have bulletproof glass, Like that's
Speaker 1: just one more like log on the fire. It's insane
Speaker 1: that he would put himself in that position.
Speaker 2: Well, correct me if I'm wrong, But I think you
Speaker 2: go back to Saturday. I think you go back to
Speaker 2: Saturday afternoon and if you recall, I believe it was
Speaker 2: Phil and Keegan Bradley were basically unbeatable and closed out
Speaker 2: their Saturday morning match and all shot. It's like both
Speaker 2: of them only hit a total of like twenty two shots,
Speaker 2: some ridiculously low number. They were playing so well. And
Speaker 2: he's the one who went to Love and said we're
Speaker 2: sitting out, We're sitting out for Saturday afternoon and Keigan
Speaker 2: Bradley was like, we're sitting out. Well, you know, I
Speaker 2: thought I thought it flipped that Saturday afternoon when when
Speaker 2: Europe caught a little momentum to try to like, you know,
Speaker 2: get get some afternoon wins leading into the singles the
Speaker 2: next day.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean that that's a great point. Like what
Speaker 1: was was Phil, It was Phil resting up for his
Speaker 1: singles match because he had a.
Speaker 2: Huge Remember everybody by surprise, like why are they not playing?
Speaker 1: They're they're unbeatable. Keep them going right, Yeah, they went
Speaker 1: three and oh in the first three frames Michelson and
Speaker 1: Bradley and they were housing dudes. I mean, they'd beat
Speaker 1: Luke Donald and Sergio Garcia probably one of the strongest
Speaker 1: European teams ever. Four and three. Then they beat and
Speaker 1: they beat Rory and grab McDowell in afternoon four ball.
Speaker 1: Then you go to Saturday morning and they take on
Speaker 1: Lee Westwood and and Luke Donald, a couple of absolute warriors.
Speaker 1: They beat him seven and six. Like you're saying, and
Speaker 1: that and that that was that was a head scratcher.
Speaker 1: Why are are they arresting now? There's there's a million
Speaker 1: things going on here. Phil has story out the cars, right,
Speaker 1: he's old. We're just speculating, but it does introduce this
Speaker 1: possibility like there was something going on, and it forces
Speaker 1: you to have some revisionist history when you know that
Speaker 1: that Phill's out there on the eve of the Ryder
Speaker 1: Cup trying to place bets. Alan.
Speaker 2: You kind of started this asking a little bit about
Speaker 2: my reaction. You have spent time with Billy, you you
Speaker 2: you you went down and met with them as you're
Speaker 2: reporting out your Phil book. You know you've dealt with
Speaker 2: him and his lawyers throughout this whole process, and then
Speaker 2: you get the excerpt, You get the excerpt on behalf
Speaker 2: of fire Pit Collective and giving us this exclusive. What
Speaker 2: was your reaction when you actually got to read this chapter?
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I actually read the whole book, and it's
Speaker 1: It was interesting because I did sit with Billy when
Speaker 1: I was reporting the Phil books, and I think now
Speaker 1: now it can be told because it's all out in
Speaker 1: the public domain. You know. I flew to Vegas and
Speaker 1: our whole conversation was off the record for you know,
Speaker 1: two hours we talked and he wanted me to know
Speaker 1: who Phil was, and he wanted me to know a
Speaker 1: lot of things. But he didn't want it in my
Speaker 1: book because he knew he was going to write his
Speaker 1: own and he didn't. He didn't want to. He didn't
Speaker 1: want to give away the goods. And he actually he
Speaker 1: told me that writer cup story. And for two years
Speaker 1: I've had to sit on it. I mean I've never
Speaker 1: I've never breathed it out loud. It's never been in print.
Speaker 1: And even as you know, Phil was was talking, uh,
Speaker 1: you know, talking trash about me in various forums, saying that.
Speaker 2: I was saying that you don't like it's actually you
Speaker 2: don't know the difference between on the record and off
Speaker 2: the record, like as it this is proof you know,
Speaker 2: the difference between what is and what isn't on and
Speaker 2: off the record.
Speaker 1: It was insane, like because that would have. You know,
Speaker 1: it's a it's a mom to revelation, and it's probably
Speaker 1: going to be the biggest headline out of all this.
Speaker 1: Everyone already knew that feel better a lot of money.
Speaker 1: The actual the receipts are interesting and they're they're eye popping.
Speaker 1: But I think the Ryder Cup bit is the biggest
Speaker 1: revelation in in Billy's book and obviously in our excerpt.
Speaker 1: And you know, I've known it for years and I
Speaker 1: couldn't say it, and so you know, when Phil said
Speaker 1: I didn't treat it fairly, it was like such an
Speaker 1: eye roll. Because I had this, it would have it
Speaker 1: would have sent my book to the moon even more.
Speaker 1: But I had an agreement with Billy. I always honor
Speaker 1: those agreements. So yeah, it was it was interesting. It
Speaker 1: was cathartic to see it in print. Honestly, at least
Speaker 1: now it's out. This is what happened. This is just
Speaker 1: the truth. You know, this is the reality. You know,
Speaker 1: my reaction and we should say. You know, there's a
Speaker 1: second chapter that that where Billy goes into the insider
Speaker 1: trading case and we're sort of embargoed from talking about
Speaker 1: that from the publisher, Like our agreement was. We just
Speaker 1: would only talk about what in the excerpt, and that's fair.
Speaker 1: But of course I've read that chapter and it's pretty withering,
Speaker 1: you know. I will say that in our excerpt, Billy
Speaker 1: talks about that, and he kind of teases it a
Speaker 1: little bit, and you know, as he writes, and as
Speaker 1: Billy writes in this chapter that we've excerpted, you know,
Speaker 1: about Phil, I never told him I had inside information
Speaker 1: about stocks and he knows it. All Phil had to
Speaker 1: do was publicly say it. He refused. The outcome cost
Speaker 1: me my freedom, tens of millions of dollars and a
Speaker 1: heartbreak I still struggle with daily. While I was in prison,
Speaker 1: my daughter committed suicide. I still believe I could have
Speaker 1: saved her if I'd been on the outside. So, you know,
Speaker 1: Billy goes into great detail about the insider trading and
Speaker 1: Phil's role, and Phil was never charged with a crime.
Speaker 1: He did have to return about a million dollars in
Speaker 1: ill gotten gains, which is a favorite term of mine.
Speaker 1: So it's interesting to read Billy's take on all that,
Speaker 1: and that'll that'll come out in other places. We won't
Speaker 1: talk about it here, but I think that on the
Speaker 1: whole Phil will survive this excerpt, this book and these revelations.
Speaker 1: It was interesting when he started it self identifying as
Speaker 1: a gambling addict, which was only happened in the wake
Speaker 1: of the publication of my book. And you know, that
Speaker 1: takes courage, that takes bravery to come out in public
Speaker 1: for anybody. We all have people in our lives who
Speaker 1: struggle with some kind of addiction and that's the hardest
Speaker 1: part is for them to admit it. And for a
Speaker 1: public figure to say it publicly, that's a big deal.
Speaker 1: So I salute Phil's courage there. And the cynic would
Speaker 1: say that he knew what was in what was coming
Speaker 1: in Billy's book, and that was sort of rebranding. You know,
Speaker 1: we we all, I think societally we have more empathy
Speaker 1: for people who struggle with addiction versus those who were
Speaker 1: just reckless or foolish. Right, And so he'll say, hey,
Speaker 1: I was a gambling addict. I got it in over
Speaker 1: my head on the bets. That was a long time ago.
Speaker 1: I think he'll survive that part. The Ryder Cup bit,
Speaker 1: I mean again, Pete Rose was banned for life from baseball.
Speaker 1: He's not in the Hall of Fame as the all
Speaker 1: time hits leader because of gambling on his own team,
Speaker 1: which is what you know, Billy alleged Phil wanted to do. Now,
Speaker 1: I'm sure, knowing Phil and knowing how it's gonna play out,
Speaker 1: feels like gonna stay. Oh, I was just joking. I
Speaker 1: you know, that was just that was just locker room talk.
Speaker 1: I would never would bet on the Ryder cup. I
Speaker 1: never placed a bet. It never happened. And in the
Speaker 1: absence of some other person like Billy Walter's coming forward
Speaker 1: and saying, yeah, I cash that bet for Phil, he'll
Speaker 1: probably survive that too. You know, the the Insider Trading chapter,
Speaker 1: it's very unflattering towards Phil, as people can probably guess
Speaker 1: from that little bit that I just read. But again,
Speaker 1: Phil's never charged with the crime and there's no new
Speaker 1: information in what Billy says it would probably change that,
Speaker 1: So I think he'll survive that chapter too. I mean,
Speaker 1: it's just it's the through line in the Phil Mickelson
Speaker 1: story is he just kind of wiggles out of these things,
Speaker 1: and he's there have been so many blow ups and
Speaker 1: controversies in his public life and he's he's kind of
Speaker 1: skated on all of them, even you know, the revelations
Speaker 1: that came out of my book, calling you know, the
Speaker 1: public Investment Fund guys scary motherfuckers and all that uproar
Speaker 1: getting suspended by the tour. In some ways, Phil's been vindicated,
Speaker 1: like the PGA tour is now doing business potentially if
Speaker 1: they can consummate the framework agreement with those very same
Speaker 1: scary motherfuckers. And a lot of the changes that Phil
Speaker 1: was calling for and advocating for have come to fruition.
Speaker 1: So even that was a monumental controversy his life, He's
Speaker 1: kind of survived that. He's just the ultimate survivor. So
Speaker 1: I think that I think that he's going to be okay.
Speaker 1: But it's it just adds more contexts, more nuanced And
Speaker 1: I think the biggest takeaway is that that Bill Billy
Speaker 1: Walters and film making some of her best friends and
Speaker 1: they and Billy was Phil's mentor, and in the end
Speaker 1: Phil completely torched that relationship and did a lot of
Speaker 1: weird things and was not there for his friend when
Speaker 1: his friend was in a dire circumstance. And I think
Speaker 1: that's probably the most damaging thing. It's not the money.
Speaker 1: We knew he bet a lot. He's going to skate
Speaker 1: on the Ryder Cup thing with the insider trading bits
Speaker 1: already mostly public, but that you know too. You have
Speaker 1: a friend who's drowning. He's in the he's in the
Speaker 1: white water, and you're potentially holding, you know, a rope
Speaker 1: you can throw to him, and Phil never threw the rope.
Speaker 1: And Billy's telling that that's that's rough, man. I mean
Speaker 1: that that really hits you on a human level. And
Speaker 1: I think that's probably gonna on some level kurdle feelings
Speaker 1: towards Phil more than anything else in this book.
Speaker 2: The last line in the book excerpt that Billy writes is,
Speaker 2: as my book makes clear, Phil is not always the
Speaker 2: person he seems to be. And I had someone recently,
Speaker 2: in sort of casual conversation out on the golf course,
Speaker 2: ask me, why was Alan writing a book on Phil?
Speaker 2: You know, you know the timing of what he said,
Speaker 2: You trying to get a hold of him him not
Speaker 2: let it, you know, sort of you convincing him that
Speaker 2: his inner circle needed to kind of talk to you
Speaker 2: so that the book that you were writing could be
Speaker 2: fair and balanced. And someone's someone saying, why was Phil
Speaker 2: writing a book? Why was Alan writing a book on Phil,
Speaker 2: and I was like, have you read the book? It's
Speaker 2: because it's all of this because he's so complicated. You know,
Speaker 2: it's complicated, it's layered, it's complex. I mean, you know,
Speaker 2: I don't know, I don't know, like the the just
Speaker 2: the Phil being this big onion and just the peeling
Speaker 2: back of who he is and what he is and
Speaker 2: how he operates and the relationships he has or the
Speaker 2: bets that he had, like it's just so so much.
Speaker 2: It's and you know, even to this day, like you know,
Speaker 2: and the Saudis and the breakaway League and the he
Speaker 2: just like it's just he is. He is quite a
Speaker 2: quite a character.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And you know, I have my own book coming
Speaker 1: out in a little while about the Live Golf PGA Tour,
Speaker 1: and I've learned so much about Phil in this process.
Speaker 1: And of course everyone knows he was he was he
Speaker 1: was deep in league with the Saudis, but there was
Speaker 1: two other breakaway leagues that Phil was heavily involved. He
Speaker 1: was advocating for the PGL, the Premier Golf League, which
Speaker 1: was a precursor to all this. Uh. And there's a
Speaker 1: hilarious bit where I mean, I'm ruining a funny part
Speaker 1: in my book. But he calls up Keith Pelly of
Speaker 1: the European Tour, you know, the CEO of the European Tour.
Speaker 1: He's like, Keith, you're a visionary. The PGL is gonna work,
Speaker 1: like you got to make it happen. And he's like,
Speaker 1: if we just need one player to sign and everyone
Speaker 1: will sign, including Tiger, you know, and like Phil just
Speaker 1: geting this hard selly. It's just funny that he calls
Speaker 1: a Pelly and you know you're a visionary, Like I
Speaker 1: just love it. It's so over the top. And then
Speaker 1: there was this third rail thing that Phil he took
Speaker 1: to this big private equity firm in New York and
Speaker 1: was was kind of like he had they had this
Speaker 1: other idea. This this came out in the New York
Speaker 1: Post a while ago, and it's just like he was
Speaker 1: working four sides of this street. He was negotiating with
Speaker 1: the tour, with the Saudi's, with Premiere Golf League, and
Speaker 1: with these private equity guys, and it's just unbelievable. I
Speaker 1: mean again, you could say Phil was right like it.
Speaker 1: One of the lessons from this framework a green and
Speaker 1: this all of this is that the tour business model
Speaker 1: was outdated and they needed to be for profit like
Speaker 1: the other leagues are in professional sports, and they needed
Speaker 1: to have the ability to take outside money. And Phil
Speaker 1: saw that very clearly. But he was just trying to
Speaker 1: make it happen in the in the back alleys, in
Speaker 1: the shadows. But he wasn't He wasn't wrong on the merits.
Speaker 1: It's just the way he handled everything. And you know, again,
Speaker 1: I send a tweet out about the Billy Walters stuff
Speaker 1: this morning, and some folks have responded, it's his money,
Speaker 1: he can do what he wants. Sure, that's totally true.
Speaker 1: It is his money he can set on fire. However,
Speaker 1: where it becomes more complex is if he's betting so
Speaker 1: much and losing so much that he has to chase money,
Speaker 1: and that leads to a complete reshifting of the entire
Speaker 1: professional golf landscape, which might or might not be exactly
Speaker 1: what happened. Then Phil's private gambling becomes a keen interest
Speaker 1: to the higher golf world and it had haess have
Speaker 1: this cascading effect on the entire sport. So, you know,
Speaker 1: it's it's interesting, I fully, you know, when when players
Speaker 1: get in trouble with the drugs, alcohol, women, Like I
Speaker 1: tryed to wag my finger. You know, I'm not trying
Speaker 1: to moralize, like we're all flawed, we all make mistakes,
Speaker 1: and but when there's larger consequences, then it becomes it
Speaker 1: spills into the public domain. And so it's it's just
Speaker 1: a fast it's just another fascinating chapter. I mean, I
Speaker 1: remember you and I Matt talking like ten years ago
Speaker 1: about golf has to prepare for the post Tiger and
Speaker 1: Phil era right, like they can't go on forever as
Speaker 1: the headliners. But here we are, like fills in his fifties.
Speaker 1: Tiger's broken down heading for age fifty, and they still
Speaker 1: dominate the discourse and every way. You know, Tiger is
Speaker 1: now going to save the PG Tour by joining the board,
Speaker 1: and he organized the meeting in Delaware and all of it,
Speaker 1: and uh, you know, the whole world vibrates whenever he
Speaker 1: teas it up, even when he misses the cut. And
Speaker 1: you know, here's Phil almost one of the masters this year,
Speaker 1: and he's the center of all these storms. And now
Speaker 1: there's this this Billy Walter's book and he has a
Speaker 1: prominent role in my next book. It's like we can't
Speaker 1: quit these guys like they just won't go away.
Speaker 2: There.
Speaker 1: The cult of personality around Tiger and Phil is so monumental.
Speaker 1: We're never going to escape them. I mean, we're you
Speaker 1: and I are going to be in our seventies and
Speaker 1: so are they, and we're still going to be talking
Speaker 1: about them and writing about them. It's just it's unbelievable.
Speaker 1: But I mean maybe we're lucky they're they're certainly fascinating,
Speaker 1: and their their flaws and their their human element is
Speaker 1: part of what makes it so interesting. Like like take
Speaker 1: Derek Jeter or I don't know, Tom uh what, Patrick
Speaker 1: Mahomes or Mike Trout. Those are better examples transcendent athletes.
Speaker 1: Totally boring and no one's you can't write, you can't
Speaker 1: talk about them for fifty years. They're just they're just
Speaker 1: great athletes. But Phil and Tiger exist on so many
Speaker 1: different levels, and they become these these moral questions, and
Speaker 1: they become these mirrors where we have to we have
Speaker 1: to look at ourselves and society as a whole, and
Speaker 1: it's just it's it's unbelievable time to be alive as
Speaker 1: as a golf fan and being on the golf media.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, and that's and we have also been talking
Speaker 2: about that since the mid nineties, which is how lucky
Speaker 2: are we to be alive and in this industry covering
Speaker 2: Tiger and Phil like in the bloodstream of of what
Speaker 2: these guys are pumping out, pumping through the sort of
Speaker 2: the the bodies of sports fans and brought golf. You know,
Speaker 2: golf needed Arnold Palmer, and Arnold Palmer needed Jack Nicholas.
Speaker 2: Golf needed Tiger Woods, and Tiger Woods needed Phil Mickelson
Speaker 2: because you have to have someone to go along with you.
Speaker 2: You and we, you know, we caught the tail end
Speaker 2: of the first part, you know of Tiger and Jack,
Speaker 2: I mean of Arnold and Jack. We got Tiger and
Speaker 2: then Phil. I think the bigger question for me is
Speaker 2: who is the next who is the next sort of
Speaker 2: you know, competitor and you know golfer for that matter,
Speaker 2: Who's going to fill this insane void on the course
Speaker 2: of what these got you know, brooks Kepler and Bryson
Speaker 2: d Schambeau or you know, it's not it's not that
Speaker 2: that's Tadley Winks compared to like what we're talking about
Speaker 2: with Tiger and Phil.
Speaker 1: I uh well, partly probably no one because they've been
Speaker 1: such cautionary tales. I mean, I think you look at
Speaker 1: a guy like Rory, I think he watched Tiger's life
Speaker 1: disintegrate and all the strife that Tiger's been through, and
Speaker 1: that helped Rory. You know, Roy was kind of swinging
Speaker 1: single guy, and he was chasing girls, and he was
Speaker 1: driving fast cars and he was doing all that stuff.
Speaker 1: It was a little more low key and a little
Speaker 1: more controlled, but he was having his fun for sure.
Speaker 1: And I think he saw Tiger's life opening flames. He's like, yeah,
Speaker 1: I better, I better change my trajectory a little bit,
Speaker 1: or don't get married and have a kid and you've
Speaker 1: become extremely private and hide behind very tall hedges. And
Speaker 1: you know, I think I think Tiger and Philip scared
Speaker 1: a lot of these guys straight, and.
Speaker 2: And social media, by the way, like it's just a
Speaker 2: different time. It's just a different time. And then you know,
Speaker 2: there's there's not the veils that these guys mounted, you know,
Speaker 2: from a business standpoint, from a personal standpoint, and you know,
Speaker 2: all the the the the the the stuff that they
Speaker 2: were involved in was just stuff that you know, and
Speaker 2: and and Arnold, Arnold benefited from that, and I'm sure
Speaker 2: many others you know of that era, not unlike in
Speaker 2: any sport or or politics for that matter. And I
Speaker 2: just think it's a different time. It's so hard to
Speaker 2: create those facades in what we're living in today.
Speaker 1: I mean it is wild Tigers, you know, selling Buick
Speaker 1: family cars and rondevou we like you know, porn stars.
Speaker 1: And you know, Phil's the ultimate family man, skipping skipping
Speaker 1: us opens for his kids events, and he's got all
Speaker 1: this mob, all these shady dudes in his life and
Speaker 1: all this other stuff. And I will say, you know,
Speaker 1: Billy Walters in his book does does right that I'm
Speaker 1: not going to get into Phil's private life, and that
Speaker 1: will be a monumental sigh of relief to Fill and
Speaker 1: the people around him, because they were very close. They
Speaker 1: moved in the same circles, whether it's the Madison Club
Speaker 1: in Palm Springs or wherever. And Billy knows a lot
Speaker 1: of stuff, and that he ultimately went you know, bro
Speaker 1: code and didn't put anything in print was a massive
Speaker 1: favor to Phil and.
Speaker 2: Will and quite frankly separates separates Billy from Phil in
Speaker 2: a way to your point about like Phil could have
Speaker 2: could have given a rope to his buddy but chose
Speaker 2: not to. Yeah, that's a good point, I mean, and
Speaker 2: also there's a big there is a little sliver of me,
Speaker 2: you know. I just think Tiger and Phil were always fascinating.
Speaker 2: We're always drawn by their greatness on the course there
Speaker 2: they are just as fascinating off the course, and to
Speaker 2: your point, again, will continue to be. It's amazing. It's
Speaker 2: amazing what we've been able to follow along and observe
Speaker 2: and witness. Sometimes it's been painful to watch. In many
Speaker 2: cases it's been painful to watch. It is it's very
Speaker 2: much like going to a car race. I mean, they're
Speaker 2: going at very high speeds. It's high stakes. There's sharp turns,
Speaker 2: you know, there's other that you know, if you're not rubbing,
Speaker 2: you're not racing. These guys have been rubbing and racing
Speaker 2: for a long stretch of time and at very high speed,
Speaker 2: and to this point they're still alive to tell about
Speaker 2: it and for us to watch. You know what's next.
Speaker 2: You know, in a way, we thank you, Thank you
Speaker 2: Tiger and Phil.
Speaker 1: Yeah. I got a little shudder when you said that,
Speaker 1: you know, thinking about Tiger's car accident and you know
Speaker 1: it's real. It's real. And I put this in print.
Speaker 1: I've talked about this before. I mean, it's dark when
Speaker 1: you start looking at the details that accident. I mean,
Speaker 1: he's never talked about it. It's all in the police report,
Speaker 1: is how he bats it away. And in the police
Speaker 1: report it says that pedal was depressed ninety nine percent
Speaker 1: force throughout the whole accident. That doesn't happen. If you
Speaker 1: fall asleep, that doesn't happen. If you get distracted by
Speaker 1: your phone, like that's willful. And there's an elm. There's
Speaker 1: something dark there. And you know Junior Say, if you remember,
Speaker 1: he had a one car accident and a lot of
Speaker 1: his friends were concerned about about him because this story
Speaker 1: didn't check out, and then of course he wound up
Speaker 1: taking his own life. And I've always thought about the
Speaker 1: reporting around after after after Junior say, I was dead
Speaker 1: when hearing about that that accident, and and how concerned
Speaker 1: the people were in his world. And so yeah, it's
Speaker 1: I mean, we we've marveled these guys as sportsmen, and
Speaker 1: they've enriched our lives in so many ways as golf fans,
Speaker 1: and the most transcendent moments of between the ropes of
Speaker 1: of the last you know, three decades have been from
Speaker 1: Tiger and Phil and they've been these these incredible characters.
Speaker 1: But there's also there's there's a dark side there, and
Speaker 1: there's a there's a level of concern and the recklessness
Speaker 1: and the out of control aspects of their life. You're right,
Speaker 1: they've they're still here. It's somewhat incredible on some level.
Speaker 1: And there you know, feel still going strong. I mean,
Speaker 1: the guy almost went won the freaking Masters a few
Speaker 1: months ago. So Tigers played a higher price, you know,
Speaker 1: but it's it's real stuff, and it does I do
Speaker 1: have empathy for both of them because and if you
Speaker 1: and I were given access to unlimited money and fame
Speaker 1: at a young age, like who knows what would have happened.
Speaker 1: They might be writing books about you and I. Like,
Speaker 1: So I'm not one, I'm not I'm not moralizing, I'm
Speaker 1: not I'm not condemning them, like we've all made our mistakes.
Speaker 1: And but there's as you said, it was at higher
Speaker 1: speeds and higher stakes. And when I when I going
Speaker 1: back to your question for a while ago, when I
Speaker 1: read this Billy's book, you know, I felt some sadness
Speaker 1: for Phil, because this was an important relationship in his
Speaker 1: life that's just been napalmed. And if you remember what
Speaker 1: got Billy Walters sentence commuted by President Trump was was
Speaker 1: in part the support of the golf community. Butch Harmon,
Speaker 1: David Ferdy, Peter Jacobson there among the guys who wrote
Speaker 1: letters in support of Billy Walters. Those are three of
Speaker 1: the most popular guys in golf, right. And from talking
Speaker 1: to people at the Mass and Club and other places,
Speaker 1: you kind of had to pick sides where you with
Speaker 1: Phil or with Billy, And almost everyone took Billy's side.
Speaker 1: And you know, I've been told that Phil's not really
Speaker 1: welcome with the Mass and Club anymore. And that was
Speaker 1: his home base in a lot of ways, and but
Speaker 1: that was also Billy's spot. And so it's like the
Speaker 1: people close to them chose sides, and they voted with
Speaker 1: their feet and they all went. They all went with Billy.
Speaker 1: And even you know, writ writing this live book, there's
Speaker 1: a there's a theme with Greg Norman. It's like the
Speaker 1: emptiness in his life and the lack of friends has
Speaker 1: been this huge void and he's destroyed a lot of
Speaker 1: friendships and it kind of feels the same with Phil.
Speaker 1: You know, like the people that he was close to,
Speaker 1: the Lama has been left behind. They don't have a
Speaker 1: new number. He's just become kind of this recluse. And
Speaker 1: so Billy Walters is part of that story, and he
Speaker 1: tells it. He tells it pretty pretty bluntly in this book.
Speaker 1: And so it's it's there's there's a heaviness to all
Speaker 1: of this. I mean, can we can you have to
Speaker 1: shake your head in amazement and almost laugh about the numbers.
Speaker 1: They're so cartoonist of the betting. I mean, who bets
Speaker 1: a billion dollars? It's like it's hard to you can't
Speaker 1: even process it, and you have to laugh. But there's
Speaker 1: there's a there's a there's a dark side to all
Speaker 1: of this. And so you know, I think we're just
Speaker 1: gonna see how it plays out, how Phil responds, and
Speaker 1: and where we go from here.
Speaker 2: The famous Andy Mill quote, former husband of Chris Everett,
Speaker 2: who piled around with Greg Norman and his wife, and
Speaker 2: then Chris Everett left Andy to be with Greg. They
Speaker 2: got married, divorced, and Andy Mill saying I would have
Speaker 2: taken a bullet for Greg. I just didn't know it
Speaker 2: was going to come from his gun.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a classic and.
Speaker 2: That that you know, and that's essentially what Billy said
Speaker 2: at the end of you know, at the end of
Speaker 2: the excerpt was you know this we were you know,
Speaker 2: he was in the Whitewater, needed a needed a friend
Speaker 2: and didn't happen.
Speaker 1: But uh wow, Yeah, it's a lot. I mean, look
Speaker 1: at like look at Nick Faldo. You know, there's been
Speaker 1: a lot of messiness in his life, you know, Lee Trevino,
Speaker 1: all the divorces and all the craziness. I mean, it
Speaker 1: really begs a question. Now you have you have your
Speaker 1: Jack Nicholas's who you know, been married to the same
Speaker 1: woman's whole life, and there's there's there's exceptions to the rule.
Speaker 1: But a lot of these great champions, they're so single
Speaker 1: minded they just leave. They leave a lot of damage
Speaker 1: behind in their lives and is it worth it? I mean,
Speaker 1: only they can answer that question, that's all we We've
Speaker 1: always had. This has come up in various times, like
Speaker 1: if you could give Tiger trucierum and ask them only
Speaker 1: one question, and people always have a different one. My question,
Speaker 1: my answer is always saying was it worth it? I
Speaker 1: was curious what Tiger said, I'm curious what Phil would say,
Speaker 1: was it worth it? I mean, they they've been to
Speaker 1: the mountaintop and they've they've they've tasted some of those
Speaker 1: glorious moments in sports history. And and they've made fortunes,
Speaker 1: and they've lost fortunes, and they've they've lost marriages. They've
Speaker 1: liked all of it. It's it's wild stuff.
Speaker 2: And and and I think they only have an answer
Speaker 2: to that question right before the end. And so you know,
Speaker 2: and the story is still going, so you know, I
Speaker 2: I would imagine they probably need I would I would
Speaker 2: think they still need time. I don't know, I don't know,
Speaker 2: I don't know.
Speaker 1: I think that's true. The story is still going. The
Speaker 1: book has been written. It is Billy Walters a Gambler.
Speaker 1: It's on sale everywhere next week. Of course, you can
Speaker 1: find it wherever you buy your books. It's an interesting read.
Speaker 1: And uh, as I said, Phil's only two chapters in it.
Speaker 1: There's Billy's had a crazy life. I enjoyed learning more
Speaker 1: about him. I mean he was he was born dirt
Speaker 1: poor in Kentucky, abandoned by his parents. Like you talk
Speaker 1: about a hard knock life, it's really an American story
Speaker 1: and with a lot of twists and turns, so anyone,
Speaker 1: anyone will enjoy it, this book, I believe. But the
Speaker 1: Mickelson stuff is the is the head the headlines, it's
Speaker 1: and it's it's the racist stuff. I think. So it's
Speaker 1: been it's been interesting to pick it apart. Matt. Thanks
Speaker 1: for doing this, appreciate your insight.
Speaker 2: Thank you, and thank thank you for continuing to be
Speaker 2: at the center of all of this in what I
Speaker 2: would say has been a rather impressive display of commitment, time, effort, energy, reporting, writing, podcasting,
Speaker 2: all the while doing any number of other things, including
Speaker 2: coaching your your daughter's basketball team, and being an incredible
Speaker 2: dad to the other three kids you have. So, I mean,
Speaker 2: you know, it's amazing. It's it's always uh, you know,
Speaker 2: it's great to work with you. It's also great to
Speaker 2: talk with you about what it is we do and uh,
Speaker 2: just incredible stuff. Yet again, Yeah, well.
Speaker 1: Back atcha, it's uh yeah, it's and it's just funny
Speaker 1: because you know we're the same age as these guys.
Speaker 1: I mean, it came up. I mean I turned pro
Speaker 1: the same year Tigers. I left UCLA. When when Tiger
Speaker 1: left Stanford, you know, when I was an intern at
Speaker 1: Sports Illustrated. That was Phil's second full season. You've been
Speaker 1: tracking them the whole way through as well, Like, it's just.
Speaker 2: My life is complicated, Like we both juggle a lot
Speaker 2: of things. When I read and hear about these guys lives,
Speaker 2: I'm like Jesus, like.
Speaker 1: How many how many people.
Speaker 2: In their inner circle are they keeping busy trying to
Speaker 2: keep up with these shenanigans.
Speaker 1: Well, yeah, I mean I've now spoken to four different
Speaker 1: lawyers for Phil Mickelson in the last couple of years,
Speaker 1: So that's is.
Speaker 2: Just so much lower than theirs.
Speaker 1: Some people have a lawyer if you're like, really have
Speaker 1: a big life, you might have two. I mean, he's
Speaker 1: got at least four. It's wild incredible, It's incredible, incredible.
Speaker 1: All right, good stuff, Well, thanks for listening. This was
Speaker 1: another fire a drill. We will be back at you
Speaker 1: with who knows what's coming next. There's always something here
Speaker 1: at Fire Collective, but we appreciate your fidelity. Thanks for listening,
Speaker 1: and this is the end. Goodbye.
Speaker 3: I'm been big. I play the Wind, made a fortune
Speaker 3: when my ship game and ran the table, and I
Speaker 3: have thought I could fall in the winter time. Hit
Speaker 3: me like a cannon in the ball and now I
Speaker 3: can't shake this losing streak. Every road I take is
Speaker 3: a dead end street. I got thoughts in my head,
Speaker 3: can't get them out, trying not to think what I'm
Speaker 3: thinking about. I've got thoughts in my head. I can't
Speaker 3: get them out, trying not to think what I'm thinking about.