1 00:00:03,600 --> 00:00:05,320 Speaker 1: Some folks have responded, it's his money, he can do 2 00:00:05,320 --> 00:00:07,840 Speaker 1: what he wants. Sure, that's totally true. It is his 3 00:00:07,920 --> 00:00:10,879 Speaker 1: money he can set on fire. However, where it becomes 4 00:00:10,920 --> 00:00:15,520 Speaker 1: more complex is if he's betting so much and losing 5 00:00:15,560 --> 00:00:18,920 Speaker 1: so much that he has to chase money, and that 6 00:00:19,040 --> 00:00:23,200 Speaker 1: leads to complete reshifting of the entire professional golf landscape, 7 00:00:23,840 --> 00:00:27,319 Speaker 1: which might or might not be exactly what happened. Then 8 00:00:27,760 --> 00:00:32,160 Speaker 1: Fill's private gambling becomes a keen interest to the entire 9 00:00:32,200 --> 00:00:32,840 Speaker 1: golf world. 10 00:00:34,840 --> 00:00:36,760 Speaker 2: That got dats my head. 11 00:00:37,479 --> 00:00:41,239 Speaker 3: Can't get him, joh And not the thing what I'm 12 00:00:41,280 --> 00:00:48,120 Speaker 3: thinking about. Can't get him out, John, Not the thing 13 00:00:48,400 --> 00:00:49,839 Speaker 3: what I'm thinking about? 14 00:00:58,040 --> 00:01:01,720 Speaker 1: Hello? Is this allon Chipnook? Back for another The Fire Drill podcast. 15 00:01:03,480 --> 00:01:07,800 Speaker 1: I'm in Los Angeles covering the US Women's Amateur Championship 16 00:01:07,840 --> 00:01:10,880 Speaker 1: at Bell Country Club. Matt Janella is with us. He 17 00:01:11,040 --> 00:01:13,880 Speaker 1: is in Ireland about to play in the Father's Son 18 00:01:14,120 --> 00:01:20,520 Speaker 1: at Waterville. But we've reconvened. We've reconnoitered because we have 19 00:01:20,840 --> 00:01:28,959 Speaker 1: the world exclusive first excerpt on Billy Walter's much anticipated autobiography, Gambler. Matt, 20 00:01:29,120 --> 00:01:32,640 Speaker 1: you've seen the material. What do you think? 21 00:01:35,240 --> 00:01:40,320 Speaker 2: I mean? You know, I've been around the golf you know, 22 00:01:40,600 --> 00:01:43,039 Speaker 2: businesses as long as you have right, almost kind of 23 00:01:43,040 --> 00:01:46,760 Speaker 2: came in the same time. It's been no you know, 24 00:01:47,240 --> 00:01:51,400 Speaker 2: big secret that Phil, you know, is a betting man. 25 00:01:52,520 --> 00:01:55,000 Speaker 2: He bets on you know, he bets on himself in 26 00:01:55,040 --> 00:01:58,320 Speaker 2: the sense that that's the way he plays the game. Uh, 27 00:01:58,480 --> 00:02:02,440 Speaker 2: there's there's a good jillion and you know rumors about 28 00:02:02,840 --> 00:02:08,480 Speaker 2: his his off course gambling. We've heard of him betting 29 00:02:08,520 --> 00:02:10,360 Speaker 2: on the Ravens to win the Super Bowl. You know, 30 00:02:11,200 --> 00:02:13,840 Speaker 2: we don't hear a lot about the losses. We certainly 31 00:02:13,840 --> 00:02:15,919 Speaker 2: don't know the nitty gritty. I remember at a Golf 32 00:02:16,040 --> 00:02:21,560 Speaker 2: Digest photo shoot when we were at the bridges in 33 00:02:21,680 --> 00:02:26,080 Speaker 2: Rancho Santa Fe and he rolled up in this black 34 00:02:26,480 --> 00:02:30,960 Speaker 2: suv you know, sat in the parking lot for what 35 00:02:31,240 --> 00:02:34,480 Speaker 2: seemed to be you know, upwards of a half an hour. 36 00:02:34,840 --> 00:02:37,600 Speaker 2: It felt more, probably like two hours. We were just 37 00:02:37,680 --> 00:02:39,440 Speaker 2: all sitting there waiting for him to get out of 38 00:02:39,480 --> 00:02:42,880 Speaker 2: the car. You know, he was making his bets for 39 00:02:42,919 --> 00:02:46,680 Speaker 2: the day. He then proceeded to show us the bulletproof 40 00:02:46,760 --> 00:02:50,200 Speaker 2: glass that he had in his car, and we were like, 41 00:02:50,400 --> 00:02:54,480 Speaker 2: why would why would Phil Micholson need bulletproof glass in 42 00:02:55,200 --> 00:02:58,440 Speaker 2: see like what exactly is going on here? Like it 43 00:02:58,560 --> 00:03:00,840 Speaker 2: just it was just a really ran them, you know, 44 00:03:01,040 --> 00:03:06,400 Speaker 2: situation and odd quite frankly. But when you read this 45 00:03:06,440 --> 00:03:09,720 Speaker 2: book excerpt and you hear about the details of what 46 00:03:09,840 --> 00:03:12,720 Speaker 2: he was doing and how he was doing it, and 47 00:03:12,760 --> 00:03:17,239 Speaker 2: the numbers, not only the numbers of bets, but the 48 00:03:17,840 --> 00:03:21,560 Speaker 2: numbers associated to the financial component. 49 00:03:21,120 --> 00:03:23,640 Speaker 1: Of all this. When the number is a B and 50 00:03:23,680 --> 00:03:27,560 Speaker 1: not an M, yeah, well let's let's go to the numbers. 51 00:03:27,760 --> 00:03:30,480 Speaker 1: Let's go to the numbers. Because people haven't seen this yet. 52 00:03:30,520 --> 00:03:35,080 Speaker 1: It Billy Walters was Phil Nicholson's gambling partner. People think 53 00:03:35,120 --> 00:03:37,920 Speaker 1: he was his bookie, but in reality they had this 54 00:03:38,040 --> 00:03:42,200 Speaker 1: partnership and Billy, as he tells it, wanted access to 55 00:03:42,320 --> 00:03:45,680 Speaker 1: Phil's books, including some offshore ones that he said had 56 00:03:45,960 --> 00:03:49,920 Speaker 1: four hundred thousand dollars limits per game per bet, and 57 00:03:50,000 --> 00:03:52,040 Speaker 1: because Billy was too good and he would get cut 58 00:03:52,080 --> 00:03:54,600 Speaker 1: off by his own his own book makers, or they'd 59 00:03:54,600 --> 00:03:57,360 Speaker 1: given really low limits like twenty k. But Phil was 60 00:03:57,400 --> 00:03:59,960 Speaker 1: such a pigeon, He's like, okay, let's let's let's go 61 00:04:00,240 --> 00:04:04,920 Speaker 1: into business. So Billy was also a meticulous record keeper 62 00:04:05,680 --> 00:04:09,600 Speaker 1: because offshore betting, interstate gambling. You know, these are gray 63 00:04:09,640 --> 00:04:13,280 Speaker 1: areas that especially ten or more years ago. And so 64 00:04:13,600 --> 00:04:16,520 Speaker 1: he kept track of everything, so and he paid taxes, 65 00:04:16,600 --> 00:04:19,920 Speaker 1: and he had a whole fleet of lawyers to kind 66 00:04:19,960 --> 00:04:23,640 Speaker 1: of help him navigate the legality of this stuff. So 67 00:04:24,400 --> 00:04:28,520 Speaker 1: this is These are some of the numbers from Billy Walters. 68 00:04:28,800 --> 00:04:33,600 Speaker 1: This is the period between twenty ten and twenty and fourteen. 69 00:04:34,400 --> 00:04:38,719 Speaker 1: He says, Phil bet one hundred and ten thousand dollars 70 00:04:39,240 --> 00:04:41,839 Speaker 1: to win one hundred thousand dollars a total of one thousand, 71 00:04:42,080 --> 00:04:46,520 Speaker 1: one hundred and fifteen times on eight hundred and fifty 72 00:04:46,520 --> 00:04:50,000 Speaker 1: eight occasions, Phil bet two hundred and twenty thousand dollars 73 00:04:50,240 --> 00:04:52,880 Speaker 1: to win two hundred thousand. When you do the math, 74 00:04:53,440 --> 00:04:56,960 Speaker 1: that comes to three hundred and eleven million dollars just 75 00:04:57,040 --> 00:05:01,839 Speaker 1: on those bets. According to Billy, in tw eleven, Michelson 76 00:05:02,000 --> 00:05:05,200 Speaker 1: made three one hundred and fifty four bets, an average 77 00:05:05,200 --> 00:05:09,080 Speaker 1: of nine per day. And he says on June twenty second, 78 00:05:09,160 --> 00:05:12,760 Speaker 1: twenty eleven, Phil made forty three bets on Major League 79 00:05:12,800 --> 00:05:18,200 Speaker 1: Baseball games, losing one hundred and forty four thousand dollars. 80 00:05:18,480 --> 00:05:21,800 Speaker 1: And in that period that Billy's talked about twenty ten 81 00:05:21,839 --> 00:05:25,800 Speaker 1: to fourteen, Micholson made over seven thousand wages on football, basketball, 82 00:05:25,839 --> 00:05:28,240 Speaker 1: and baseball. And this is what you're alluding to, Matt. 83 00:05:28,640 --> 00:05:31,640 Speaker 1: This is what Billy says. I'm reading from the book 84 00:05:31,760 --> 00:05:36,599 Speaker 1: now based on our relationship, when I've learned from others. 85 00:05:36,640 --> 00:05:39,240 Speaker 1: In all, Phil wagered a total of more than one 86 00:05:39,440 --> 00:05:43,080 Speaker 1: a billion dollars during the past three decades. That's a 87 00:05:43,080 --> 00:05:48,320 Speaker 1: billion with a B. Now, Billy's not privy to the 88 00:05:48,320 --> 00:05:51,320 Speaker 1: wins and losses, but he estimates that Phil has lost 89 00:05:51,960 --> 00:05:55,680 Speaker 1: in the neighborhood one hundred million dollars from from all 90 00:05:55,680 --> 00:05:58,919 Speaker 1: those bets. I mean that that's real money, because what 91 00:06:00,160 --> 00:06:04,560 Speaker 1: you know in the book, Billy quotes Phil as saying 92 00:06:05,360 --> 00:06:08,159 Speaker 1: that Michelson's net worth is two hundred and fifty million dollars. 93 00:06:08,360 --> 00:06:10,400 Speaker 1: It's probably grown since then. We know that we live 94 00:06:10,440 --> 00:06:13,240 Speaker 1: golf and everything else. But if you're worth two hundred 95 00:06:13,240 --> 00:06:15,440 Speaker 1: and fifty k and or two hundred fifty million and 96 00:06:15,480 --> 00:06:18,680 Speaker 1: you're losing one hundred million, that is a massive percentage 97 00:06:18,800 --> 00:06:23,080 Speaker 1: of Even if you're worth half a billion, you're losing 98 00:06:23,120 --> 00:06:28,159 Speaker 1: twenty percent of that just gone. These are pretty staggering 99 00:06:28,240 --> 00:06:30,880 Speaker 1: numbers and it's like you said, Matt, I mean, it 100 00:06:30,920 --> 00:06:35,240 Speaker 1: was part of Phil's brand has always been he's a gambler. 101 00:06:35,279 --> 00:06:37,440 Speaker 1: Everyone kind of knew it, and it was whispered about, 102 00:06:37,480 --> 00:06:40,160 Speaker 1: But this is the first time we have the real receipts. 103 00:06:40,480 --> 00:06:45,159 Speaker 1: In my biography, I had access to a source who 104 00:06:45,279 --> 00:06:52,000 Speaker 1: saw some IRS documents and they put Phil's gambling losses 105 00:06:52,040 --> 00:06:55,279 Speaker 1: at forty million dollars in that period twenty ten to fourteen. 106 00:06:55,320 --> 00:06:59,200 Speaker 1: But that was just a snapshot. You know, Billy has 107 00:06:59,240 --> 00:07:02,520 Speaker 1: more information, and clearly because he was the guy who 108 00:07:02,640 --> 00:07:05,400 Speaker 1: was placing the bets and talking it over on a 109 00:07:05,480 --> 00:07:10,720 Speaker 1: daily basis, and the volume is pretty incredible. When when 110 00:07:10,760 --> 00:07:12,640 Speaker 1: you hear those numbers, what is your reaction? 111 00:07:14,800 --> 00:07:18,400 Speaker 2: It's staggering, I mean, And also, you know, it's kind 112 00:07:18,400 --> 00:07:21,080 Speaker 2: of it's a little bit like Tiger. When we heard 113 00:07:21,760 --> 00:07:26,040 Speaker 2: and started seeing the numbers of women that Tiger had 114 00:07:26,080 --> 00:07:29,640 Speaker 2: been with or all the different sort of relationships he 115 00:07:29,760 --> 00:07:33,320 Speaker 2: was managing, it was like, how could he manage all 116 00:07:33,360 --> 00:07:36,760 Speaker 2: of that and still have that level of success on 117 00:07:36,840 --> 00:07:40,400 Speaker 2: the golf course. To me, it's a very similar reaction. 118 00:07:41,000 --> 00:07:46,040 Speaker 2: Certainly a different situation, but the wherewithal the game as 119 00:07:46,080 --> 00:07:49,720 Speaker 2: we know it is so complex and complicated and hard 120 00:07:49,800 --> 00:07:54,520 Speaker 2: to you know, hard to master. You have to be 121 00:07:54,720 --> 00:07:57,880 Speaker 2: right in your mind, in your spirit, in your soul 122 00:07:58,240 --> 00:08:02,160 Speaker 2: and your convictions of of what you're capable of in 123 00:08:02,280 --> 00:08:05,720 Speaker 2: order to execute on a day to day, week to 124 00:08:05,840 --> 00:08:10,400 Speaker 2: week tour to tour like good. I mean, so that 125 00:08:10,560 --> 00:08:12,320 Speaker 2: was kind of like my thought is like, oh my god, 126 00:08:12,440 --> 00:08:15,520 Speaker 2: both of these guys have achieved this type of success 127 00:08:15,640 --> 00:08:20,880 Speaker 2: while also juggling these what would be perceived to be 128 00:08:20,960 --> 00:08:25,480 Speaker 2: shit storms off the course. It's, you know, in some 129 00:08:25,520 --> 00:08:31,640 Speaker 2: ways it's actually really impressive. I mean, that's that many bets, 130 00:08:31,800 --> 00:08:36,280 Speaker 2: tracking all that stuff. I mean, that's that's a lot. 131 00:08:37,440 --> 00:08:41,679 Speaker 1: Well. I mean, yeah, it's remarkable that as you're saying 132 00:08:41,679 --> 00:08:43,560 Speaker 1: that the two greatest golfers in the last you know, 133 00:08:43,640 --> 00:08:48,400 Speaker 1: three decades had these these addiction issues. And you know, 134 00:08:48,440 --> 00:08:50,880 Speaker 1: Phil has used the word addiction talking about his gambling. 135 00:08:51,360 --> 00:08:53,960 Speaker 1: Tiger's been to treatment at least twice that we know 136 00:08:54,040 --> 00:08:58,440 Speaker 1: of for addictions. And it always was that belief that 137 00:08:58,480 --> 00:09:00,439 Speaker 1: to play the highest level of off you had to 138 00:09:00,440 --> 00:09:04,360 Speaker 1: have a clear mind. But maybe it's the opposite. Maybe 139 00:09:04,360 --> 00:09:09,079 Speaker 1: they needed that constant rush and that that that that 140 00:09:09,080 --> 00:09:12,720 Speaker 1: that energy and the juice and then when they got 141 00:09:12,800 --> 00:09:15,559 Speaker 1: between the ropes, that's when everything kind of quieted down, 142 00:09:16,120 --> 00:09:18,520 Speaker 1: and that was their respite from all the chaos. And 143 00:09:18,559 --> 00:09:20,920 Speaker 1: maybe that's why they could lock in during those four hours. 144 00:09:20,920 --> 00:09:23,679 Speaker 1: I don't know it. It does put to lie what 145 00:09:23,880 --> 00:09:26,040 Speaker 1: you know, golfers have always said, you know, when I'm 146 00:09:26,080 --> 00:09:28,760 Speaker 1: going through divorce, when I'm whatever, I couldn't. I couldn't. 147 00:09:28,800 --> 00:09:31,240 Speaker 1: I couldn't think about golf. I couldn't play golf. My 148 00:09:31,360 --> 00:09:34,080 Speaker 1: father died. It affected my golf for two years. Like 149 00:09:34,600 --> 00:09:37,800 Speaker 1: these guys just sailed through the chaos. It's remarkable. 150 00:09:38,360 --> 00:09:42,240 Speaker 2: Speaking of chaos, twenty twelve, Ryder Cup. In this book excerpt, 151 00:09:42,760 --> 00:09:46,600 Speaker 2: Billy says Phil calls him to try to put a 152 00:09:46,640 --> 00:09:52,880 Speaker 2: bet on Team USA. Madna, Yeah, you know this. This 153 00:09:53,040 --> 00:09:56,240 Speaker 2: was the Rider Cup, you know. Billy essentially says I'm 154 00:09:56,240 --> 00:09:59,120 Speaker 2: not doing this. I'm not doing this now and says 155 00:09:59,160 --> 00:10:00,920 Speaker 2: I don't know if he got the bet in or 156 00:10:00,960 --> 00:10:03,320 Speaker 2: if he went somewhere else, but he came to me 157 00:10:03,360 --> 00:10:06,199 Speaker 2: with the bet and I was like, you're crossing lines 158 00:10:06,240 --> 00:10:09,079 Speaker 2: here that that I'm not comfortable being a part of. 159 00:10:09,440 --> 00:10:10,319 Speaker 2: Pete Rose lines. 160 00:10:11,120 --> 00:10:13,680 Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm going to read that passage because it's really 161 00:10:13,679 --> 00:10:17,599 Speaker 1: interesting Phil calls him up from a dina, and of 162 00:10:17,679 --> 00:10:20,040 Speaker 1: course this is Billy's words. He was so confident that 163 00:10:20,040 --> 00:10:21,720 Speaker 1: he asked me to place a four hundred thousand dollars 164 00:10:21,720 --> 00:10:24,600 Speaker 1: wager for him on the US team to win. I 165 00:10:24,640 --> 00:10:27,040 Speaker 1: could not believe what I was hearing. Have you lost 166 00:10:27,080 --> 00:10:29,680 Speaker 1: your fucking mind? I told him, don't you remember what 167 00:10:29,679 --> 00:10:34,839 Speaker 1: happened to Pete Rose? I mean, it's pretty funny. And again, 168 00:10:34,880 --> 00:10:38,760 Speaker 1: that was always the defense of Pete Rose, you know, 169 00:10:39,240 --> 00:10:42,000 Speaker 1: advocates was that, well, when you're when you're betting on 170 00:10:42,040 --> 00:10:45,360 Speaker 1: your own team, that's not really doing anything wrong because 171 00:10:45,360 --> 00:10:47,360 Speaker 1: you're trying to win the game no matter what. But 172 00:10:48,440 --> 00:10:52,080 Speaker 1: the counter argument is that when when you have that 173 00:10:52,240 --> 00:10:55,800 Speaker 1: money and that stress, you might do things in the 174 00:10:55,840 --> 00:10:58,560 Speaker 1: short term, that's that's not going to help the team 175 00:10:58,720 --> 00:11:00,600 Speaker 1: over a long season. You're gonna burn up your bullpen 176 00:11:00,640 --> 00:11:02,640 Speaker 1: because you got fifty thousand dollars on this game. You 177 00:11:02,679 --> 00:11:04,679 Speaker 1: don't care, you're bringing all your you're bringing your closer 178 00:11:04,679 --> 00:11:06,680 Speaker 1: in the third inning. If you have to write like 179 00:11:06,760 --> 00:11:10,880 Speaker 1: it can affect your strategy. Now with Phil, he's used 180 00:11:10,880 --> 00:11:13,360 Speaker 1: to you know, four thousand dollars is a third place 181 00:11:13,440 --> 00:11:15,840 Speaker 1: check on the tour back then whatever he's used to 182 00:11:15,840 --> 00:11:20,600 Speaker 1: playing for money, But it just speaks to a desperation, 183 00:11:21,320 --> 00:11:23,960 Speaker 1: like the Ryder Cup has enough pressure, you need the 184 00:11:24,000 --> 00:11:28,160 Speaker 1: extra juice of a bet. It's crazy. I mean, there's 185 00:11:28,400 --> 00:11:31,240 Speaker 1: enough action between the ropes to the Ryder Cup, you 186 00:11:31,280 --> 00:11:35,480 Speaker 1: need another four hundred k. Like it's it's insane. And 187 00:11:36,559 --> 00:11:39,079 Speaker 1: as Billy says, we don't know if Phil plays the bet, 188 00:11:39,160 --> 00:11:43,040 Speaker 1: but it speaks to his frame of mind. And we 189 00:11:43,120 --> 00:11:47,440 Speaker 1: know Phil had other bookies and other avenues for placing 190 00:11:47,480 --> 00:11:49,480 Speaker 1: bets because some of the stuff has come out in public. 191 00:11:49,600 --> 00:11:52,200 Speaker 1: Like also going back to your bulletproof glass, Like you know, 192 00:11:52,200 --> 00:11:55,480 Speaker 1: Phil is mixed up with Dandy Dawn. This this mob 193 00:11:55,640 --> 00:12:00,640 Speaker 1: mobbed up dude in Detroit and that that became a 194 00:12:00,640 --> 00:12:04,199 Speaker 1: whole public mess. There was this this you know, this 195 00:12:04,320 --> 00:12:07,880 Speaker 1: guy Greg Silverian san Diego went to prison for you know, 196 00:12:08,080 --> 00:12:11,320 Speaker 1: fraud related to this wire transfer that was sent to 197 00:12:11,840 --> 00:12:15,080 Speaker 1: a high profile golfer the initials PM, That's what it 198 00:12:15,080 --> 00:12:18,839 Speaker 1: said in the court documents. Like you know, there was 199 00:12:18,880 --> 00:12:20,920 Speaker 1: this guy Brian Zerif who Phil was one of his 200 00:12:20,960 --> 00:12:24,880 Speaker 1: betting partners, and he was allegedly you know, he wound 201 00:12:24,960 --> 00:12:27,920 Speaker 1: up getting in trouble with the Feds allegedly it was 202 00:12:28,000 --> 00:12:32,200 Speaker 1: linked to the Russian mafia. Like there's there was some 203 00:12:32,240 --> 00:12:36,880 Speaker 1: shady characters very close to Phil ergo the bulletproof glass 204 00:12:36,920 --> 00:12:40,280 Speaker 1: and so you know really didn't didn't take the bet, 205 00:12:40,520 --> 00:12:42,160 Speaker 1: but we don't know who was the next guy Phil 206 00:12:42,280 --> 00:12:45,320 Speaker 1: called and how big the number got. And if you 207 00:12:45,360 --> 00:12:48,240 Speaker 1: remember the Miracle Medina, this is the Ryder Cup we're 208 00:12:48,240 --> 00:12:52,400 Speaker 1: talking about. The whole thing flipped in singles when Justin 209 00:12:52,520 --> 00:12:55,680 Speaker 1: Rose came back and beat Phil on the last last hole. 210 00:12:55,720 --> 00:12:58,640 Speaker 1: You know Rose made that bomb on seventeen and then 211 00:12:58,640 --> 00:13:01,640 Speaker 1: he takes the match. That was the key moment in 212 00:13:01,679 --> 00:13:05,560 Speaker 1: this historic comeback for Europe. Now Phil was trying to win, Yes, 213 00:13:06,400 --> 00:13:08,640 Speaker 1: of course he was, and if he was betting on himself, 214 00:13:08,800 --> 00:13:10,520 Speaker 1: he was trying to win extra hard. But that's the 215 00:13:10,520 --> 00:13:13,640 Speaker 1: whole point, Like there's already enough pressure. If Phil has 216 00:13:13,679 --> 00:13:17,040 Speaker 1: some huge bet out there with some shady character, who 217 00:13:17,840 --> 00:13:20,560 Speaker 1: for whom you need to have bulletproof glass, Like that's 218 00:13:20,640 --> 00:13:24,480 Speaker 1: just one more like log on the fire. It's insane 219 00:13:24,480 --> 00:13:25,920 Speaker 1: that he would put himself in that position. 220 00:13:26,640 --> 00:13:28,480 Speaker 2: Well, correct me if I'm wrong, But I think you 221 00:13:28,640 --> 00:13:32,080 Speaker 2: go back to Saturday. I think you go back to 222 00:13:32,160 --> 00:13:36,760 Speaker 2: Saturday afternoon and if you recall, I believe it was 223 00:13:36,800 --> 00:13:40,719 Speaker 2: Phil and Keegan Bradley were basically unbeatable and closed out 224 00:13:40,720 --> 00:13:44,040 Speaker 2: their Saturday morning match and all shot. It's like both 225 00:13:44,080 --> 00:13:46,280 Speaker 2: of them only hit a total of like twenty two shots, 226 00:13:46,280 --> 00:13:50,280 Speaker 2: some ridiculously low number. They were playing so well. And 227 00:13:50,360 --> 00:13:52,600 Speaker 2: he's the one who went to Love and said we're 228 00:13:52,600 --> 00:13:55,920 Speaker 2: sitting out, We're sitting out for Saturday afternoon and Keigan 229 00:13:55,920 --> 00:13:59,560 Speaker 2: Bradley was like, we're sitting out. Well, you know, I 230 00:13:59,640 --> 00:14:02,559 Speaker 2: thought I thought it flipped that Saturday afternoon when when 231 00:14:02,640 --> 00:14:05,200 Speaker 2: Europe caught a little momentum to try to like, you know, 232 00:14:05,480 --> 00:14:08,480 Speaker 2: get get some afternoon wins leading into the singles the 233 00:14:08,520 --> 00:14:08,960 Speaker 2: next day. 234 00:14:10,960 --> 00:14:13,480 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean that that's a great point. Like what 235 00:14:13,880 --> 00:14:16,800 Speaker 1: was was Phil, It was Phil resting up for his 236 00:14:16,840 --> 00:14:17,959 Speaker 1: singles match because he had a. 237 00:14:17,920 --> 00:14:22,840 Speaker 2: Huge Remember everybody by surprise, like why are they not playing? 238 00:14:22,880 --> 00:14:26,640 Speaker 1: They're they're unbeatable. Keep them going right, Yeah, they went 239 00:14:26,680 --> 00:14:30,240 Speaker 1: three and oh in the first three frames Michelson and 240 00:14:30,240 --> 00:14:33,600 Speaker 1: Bradley and they were housing dudes. I mean, they'd beat 241 00:14:33,800 --> 00:14:37,080 Speaker 1: Luke Donald and Sergio Garcia probably one of the strongest 242 00:14:37,080 --> 00:14:41,240 Speaker 1: European teams ever. Four and three. Then they beat and 243 00:14:42,840 --> 00:14:46,080 Speaker 1: they beat Rory and grab McDowell in afternoon four ball. 244 00:14:46,120 --> 00:14:48,600 Speaker 1: Then you go to Saturday morning and they take on 245 00:14:48,880 --> 00:14:52,880 Speaker 1: Lee Westwood and and Luke Donald, a couple of absolute warriors. 246 00:14:53,000 --> 00:14:55,440 Speaker 1: They beat him seven and six. Like you're saying, and 247 00:14:56,120 --> 00:14:59,720 Speaker 1: that and that that was that was a head scratcher. 248 00:14:59,720 --> 00:15:02,320 Speaker 1: Why are are they arresting now? There's there's a million 249 00:15:02,360 --> 00:15:04,320 Speaker 1: things going on here. Phil has story out the cars, right, 250 00:15:04,640 --> 00:15:09,840 Speaker 1: he's old. We're just speculating, but it does introduce this 251 00:15:09,960 --> 00:15:15,600 Speaker 1: possibility like there was something going on, and it forces 252 00:15:15,600 --> 00:15:18,080 Speaker 1: you to have some revisionist history when you know that 253 00:15:18,320 --> 00:15:20,080 Speaker 1: that Phill's out there on the eve of the Ryder 254 00:15:20,080 --> 00:15:23,040 Speaker 1: Cup trying to place bets. Alan. 255 00:15:23,120 --> 00:15:27,520 Speaker 2: You kind of started this asking a little bit about 256 00:15:27,520 --> 00:15:32,800 Speaker 2: my reaction. You have spent time with Billy, you you 257 00:15:32,320 --> 00:15:34,480 Speaker 2: you you went down and met with them as you're 258 00:15:34,480 --> 00:15:39,160 Speaker 2: reporting out your Phil book. You know you've dealt with 259 00:15:39,280 --> 00:15:41,680 Speaker 2: him and his lawyers throughout this whole process, and then 260 00:15:41,800 --> 00:15:44,760 Speaker 2: you get the excerpt, You get the excerpt on behalf 261 00:15:44,800 --> 00:15:48,240 Speaker 2: of fire Pit Collective and giving us this exclusive. What 262 00:15:48,400 --> 00:15:51,680 Speaker 2: was your reaction when you actually got to read this chapter? 263 00:15:53,040 --> 00:15:55,760 Speaker 1: Yeah, and I actually read the whole book, and it's 264 00:15:56,520 --> 00:15:59,320 Speaker 1: It was interesting because I did sit with Billy when 265 00:15:59,320 --> 00:16:03,280 Speaker 1: I was reporting the Phil books, and I think now 266 00:16:03,400 --> 00:16:05,200 Speaker 1: now it can be told because it's all out in 267 00:16:05,200 --> 00:16:08,120 Speaker 1: the public domain. You know. I flew to Vegas and 268 00:16:08,920 --> 00:16:12,360 Speaker 1: our whole conversation was off the record for you know, 269 00:16:12,400 --> 00:16:14,680 Speaker 1: two hours we talked and he wanted me to know 270 00:16:15,120 --> 00:16:16,560 Speaker 1: who Phil was, and he wanted me to know a 271 00:16:16,600 --> 00:16:19,640 Speaker 1: lot of things. But he didn't want it in my 272 00:16:19,800 --> 00:16:21,440 Speaker 1: book because he knew he was going to write his 273 00:16:21,480 --> 00:16:24,160 Speaker 1: own and he didn't. He didn't want to. He didn't 274 00:16:24,160 --> 00:16:26,640 Speaker 1: want to give away the goods. And he actually he 275 00:16:26,720 --> 00:16:31,280 Speaker 1: told me that writer cup story. And for two years 276 00:16:31,320 --> 00:16:33,440 Speaker 1: I've had to sit on it. I mean I've never 277 00:16:33,800 --> 00:16:36,480 Speaker 1: I've never breathed it out loud. It's never been in print. 278 00:16:37,000 --> 00:16:40,680 Speaker 1: And even as you know, Phil was was talking, uh, 279 00:16:40,840 --> 00:16:44,880 Speaker 1: you know, talking trash about me in various forums, saying that. 280 00:16:44,880 --> 00:16:47,360 Speaker 2: I was saying that you don't like it's actually you 281 00:16:47,400 --> 00:16:49,720 Speaker 2: don't know the difference between on the record and off 282 00:16:49,760 --> 00:16:52,400 Speaker 2: the record, like as it this is proof you know, 283 00:16:52,520 --> 00:16:55,360 Speaker 2: the difference between what is and what isn't on and 284 00:16:55,360 --> 00:16:56,040 Speaker 2: off the record. 285 00:16:56,320 --> 00:16:59,160 Speaker 1: It was insane, like because that would have. You know, 286 00:16:59,200 --> 00:17:03,000 Speaker 1: it's a it's a mom to revelation, and it's probably 287 00:17:03,000 --> 00:17:05,040 Speaker 1: going to be the biggest headline out of all this. 288 00:17:05,320 --> 00:17:07,720 Speaker 1: Everyone already knew that feel better a lot of money. 289 00:17:07,800 --> 00:17:11,520 Speaker 1: The actual the receipts are interesting and they're they're eye popping. 290 00:17:11,600 --> 00:17:14,160 Speaker 1: But I think the Ryder Cup bit is the biggest 291 00:17:14,200 --> 00:17:18,200 Speaker 1: revelation in in Billy's book and obviously in our excerpt. 292 00:17:18,280 --> 00:17:20,600 Speaker 1: And you know, I've known it for years and I 293 00:17:20,840 --> 00:17:23,240 Speaker 1: couldn't say it, and so you know, when Phil said 294 00:17:23,240 --> 00:17:24,760 Speaker 1: I didn't treat it fairly, it was like such an 295 00:17:24,800 --> 00:17:27,480 Speaker 1: eye roll. Because I had this, it would have it 296 00:17:27,480 --> 00:17:30,040 Speaker 1: would have sent my book to the moon even more. 297 00:17:30,080 --> 00:17:32,880 Speaker 1: But I had an agreement with Billy. I always honor 298 00:17:32,920 --> 00:17:37,320 Speaker 1: those agreements. So yeah, it was it was interesting. It 299 00:17:37,320 --> 00:17:39,520 Speaker 1: was cathartic to see it in print. Honestly, at least 300 00:17:39,520 --> 00:17:41,439 Speaker 1: now it's out. This is what happened. This is just 301 00:17:41,480 --> 00:17:46,000 Speaker 1: the truth. You know, this is the reality. You know, 302 00:17:46,119 --> 00:17:48,879 Speaker 1: my reaction and we should say. You know, there's a 303 00:17:48,880 --> 00:17:53,160 Speaker 1: second chapter that that where Billy goes into the insider 304 00:17:53,359 --> 00:17:57,000 Speaker 1: trading case and we're sort of embargoed from talking about 305 00:17:57,000 --> 00:17:58,919 Speaker 1: that from the publisher, Like our agreement was. We just 306 00:17:58,960 --> 00:18:01,480 Speaker 1: would only talk about what in the excerpt, and that's fair. 307 00:18:01,520 --> 00:18:05,560 Speaker 1: But of course I've read that chapter and it's pretty withering, 308 00:18:06,720 --> 00:18:11,920 Speaker 1: you know. I will say that in our excerpt, Billy 309 00:18:11,960 --> 00:18:14,800 Speaker 1: talks about that, and he kind of teases it a 310 00:18:14,840 --> 00:18:19,320 Speaker 1: little bit, and you know, as he writes, and as 311 00:18:19,359 --> 00:18:22,159 Speaker 1: Billy writes in this chapter that we've excerpted, you know, 312 00:18:22,520 --> 00:18:26,320 Speaker 1: about Phil, I never told him I had inside information 313 00:18:26,359 --> 00:18:28,919 Speaker 1: about stocks and he knows it. All Phil had to 314 00:18:28,960 --> 00:18:32,920 Speaker 1: do was publicly say it. He refused. The outcome cost 315 00:18:33,000 --> 00:18:35,280 Speaker 1: me my freedom, tens of millions of dollars and a 316 00:18:35,320 --> 00:18:38,639 Speaker 1: heartbreak I still struggle with daily. While I was in prison, 317 00:18:38,800 --> 00:18:41,919 Speaker 1: my daughter committed suicide. I still believe I could have 318 00:18:41,920 --> 00:18:46,000 Speaker 1: saved her if I'd been on the outside. So, you know, 319 00:18:47,880 --> 00:18:51,639 Speaker 1: Billy goes into great detail about the insider trading and 320 00:18:51,680 --> 00:18:56,600 Speaker 1: Phil's role, and Phil was never charged with a crime. 321 00:18:56,680 --> 00:18:58,879 Speaker 1: He did have to return about a million dollars in 322 00:18:58,960 --> 00:19:01,560 Speaker 1: ill gotten gains, which is a favorite term of mine. 323 00:19:02,680 --> 00:19:04,439 Speaker 1: So it's interesting to read Billy's take on all that, 324 00:19:04,520 --> 00:19:06,960 Speaker 1: and that'll that'll come out in other places. We won't 325 00:19:06,960 --> 00:19:12,600 Speaker 1: talk about it here, but I think that on the 326 00:19:12,640 --> 00:19:19,639 Speaker 1: whole Phil will survive this excerpt, this book and these revelations. 327 00:19:21,600 --> 00:19:24,560 Speaker 1: It was interesting when he started it self identifying as 328 00:19:24,600 --> 00:19:26,800 Speaker 1: a gambling addict, which was only happened in the wake 329 00:19:26,840 --> 00:19:29,720 Speaker 1: of the publication of my book. And you know, that 330 00:19:29,840 --> 00:19:32,679 Speaker 1: takes courage, that takes bravery to come out in public 331 00:19:32,960 --> 00:19:36,040 Speaker 1: for anybody. We all have people in our lives who 332 00:19:36,040 --> 00:19:38,280 Speaker 1: struggle with some kind of addiction and that's the hardest 333 00:19:38,320 --> 00:19:39,879 Speaker 1: part is for them to admit it. And for a 334 00:19:39,880 --> 00:19:42,000 Speaker 1: public figure to say it publicly, that's a big deal. 335 00:19:42,040 --> 00:19:47,280 Speaker 1: So I salute Phil's courage there. And the cynic would 336 00:19:47,320 --> 00:19:49,960 Speaker 1: say that he knew what was in what was coming 337 00:19:50,000 --> 00:19:53,840 Speaker 1: in Billy's book, and that was sort of rebranding. You know, 338 00:19:53,880 --> 00:19:58,120 Speaker 1: we we all, I think societally we have more empathy 339 00:19:58,240 --> 00:20:00,800 Speaker 1: for people who struggle with addiction versus those who were 340 00:20:00,800 --> 00:20:04,720 Speaker 1: just reckless or foolish. Right, And so he'll say, hey, 341 00:20:04,760 --> 00:20:07,360 Speaker 1: I was a gambling addict. I got it in over 342 00:20:07,400 --> 00:20:09,480 Speaker 1: my head on the bets. That was a long time ago. 343 00:20:10,720 --> 00:20:13,240 Speaker 1: I think he'll survive that part. The Ryder Cup bit, 344 00:20:13,359 --> 00:20:16,760 Speaker 1: I mean again, Pete Rose was banned for life from baseball. 345 00:20:16,800 --> 00:20:18,480 Speaker 1: He's not in the Hall of Fame as the all 346 00:20:18,520 --> 00:20:24,560 Speaker 1: time hits leader because of gambling on his own team, 347 00:20:24,680 --> 00:20:28,200 Speaker 1: which is what you know, Billy alleged Phil wanted to do. Now, 348 00:20:28,359 --> 00:20:31,399 Speaker 1: I'm sure, knowing Phil and knowing how it's gonna play out, 349 00:20:31,400 --> 00:20:34,040 Speaker 1: feels like gonna stay. Oh, I was just joking. I 350 00:20:34,119 --> 00:20:36,800 Speaker 1: you know, that was just that was just locker room talk. 351 00:20:36,960 --> 00:20:39,240 Speaker 1: I would never would bet on the Ryder cup. I 352 00:20:39,280 --> 00:20:42,600 Speaker 1: never placed a bet. It never happened. And in the 353 00:20:42,600 --> 00:20:45,480 Speaker 1: absence of some other person like Billy Walter's coming forward 354 00:20:45,480 --> 00:20:49,200 Speaker 1: and saying, yeah, I cash that bet for Phil, he'll 355 00:20:49,240 --> 00:20:55,199 Speaker 1: probably survive that too. You know, the the Insider Trading chapter, 356 00:20:56,280 --> 00:20:59,480 Speaker 1: it's very unflattering towards Phil, as people can probably guess 357 00:20:59,480 --> 00:21:04,320 Speaker 1: from that little bit that I just read. But again, 358 00:21:04,440 --> 00:21:08,040 Speaker 1: Phil's never charged with the crime and there's no new 359 00:21:08,080 --> 00:21:11,080 Speaker 1: information in what Billy says it would probably change that, 360 00:21:11,160 --> 00:21:13,680 Speaker 1: So I think he'll survive that chapter too. I mean, 361 00:21:13,720 --> 00:21:17,200 Speaker 1: it's just it's the through line in the Phil Mickelson 362 00:21:17,280 --> 00:21:20,160 Speaker 1: story is he just kind of wiggles out of these things, 363 00:21:20,280 --> 00:21:24,919 Speaker 1: and he's there have been so many blow ups and 364 00:21:25,000 --> 00:21:29,280 Speaker 1: controversies in his public life and he's he's kind of 365 00:21:29,320 --> 00:21:32,320 Speaker 1: skated on all of them, even you know, the revelations 366 00:21:32,320 --> 00:21:34,520 Speaker 1: that came out of my book, calling you know, the 367 00:21:35,560 --> 00:21:40,200 Speaker 1: public Investment Fund guys scary motherfuckers and all that uproar 368 00:21:40,320 --> 00:21:43,679 Speaker 1: getting suspended by the tour. In some ways, Phil's been vindicated, 369 00:21:43,800 --> 00:21:46,359 Speaker 1: like the PGA tour is now doing business potentially if 370 00:21:46,400 --> 00:21:49,000 Speaker 1: they can consummate the framework agreement with those very same 371 00:21:49,040 --> 00:21:52,120 Speaker 1: scary motherfuckers. And a lot of the changes that Phil 372 00:21:52,240 --> 00:21:55,080 Speaker 1: was calling for and advocating for have come to fruition. 373 00:21:55,280 --> 00:21:58,720 Speaker 1: So even that was a monumental controversy his life, He's 374 00:21:58,760 --> 00:22:01,480 Speaker 1: kind of survived that. He's just the ultimate survivor. So 375 00:22:02,200 --> 00:22:04,919 Speaker 1: I think that I think that he's going to be okay. 376 00:22:05,040 --> 00:22:09,399 Speaker 1: But it's it just adds more contexts, more nuanced And 377 00:22:10,720 --> 00:22:14,119 Speaker 1: I think the biggest takeaway is that that Bill Billy 378 00:22:14,160 --> 00:22:16,520 Speaker 1: Walters and film making some of her best friends and 379 00:22:16,560 --> 00:22:20,520 Speaker 1: they and Billy was Phil's mentor, and in the end 380 00:22:20,560 --> 00:22:25,439 Speaker 1: Phil completely torched that relationship and did a lot of 381 00:22:25,480 --> 00:22:27,880 Speaker 1: weird things and was not there for his friend when 382 00:22:27,920 --> 00:22:30,920 Speaker 1: his friend was in a dire circumstance. And I think 383 00:22:30,920 --> 00:22:33,600 Speaker 1: that's probably the most damaging thing. It's not the money. 384 00:22:33,640 --> 00:22:35,880 Speaker 1: We knew he bet a lot. He's going to skate 385 00:22:35,920 --> 00:22:38,760 Speaker 1: on the Ryder Cup thing with the insider trading bits 386 00:22:38,760 --> 00:22:43,399 Speaker 1: already mostly public, but that you know too. You have 387 00:22:43,760 --> 00:22:47,560 Speaker 1: a friend who's drowning. He's in the he's in the 388 00:22:47,560 --> 00:22:52,200 Speaker 1: white water, and you're potentially holding, you know, a rope 389 00:22:52,240 --> 00:22:54,400 Speaker 1: you can throw to him, and Phil never threw the rope. 390 00:22:54,560 --> 00:22:58,080 Speaker 1: And Billy's telling that that's that's rough, man. I mean 391 00:22:58,080 --> 00:23:00,080 Speaker 1: that that really hits you on a human level. And 392 00:23:00,119 --> 00:23:05,200 Speaker 1: I think that's probably gonna on some level kurdle feelings 393 00:23:05,240 --> 00:23:07,080 Speaker 1: towards Phil more than anything else in this book. 394 00:23:09,400 --> 00:23:12,840 Speaker 2: The last line in the book excerpt that Billy writes is, 395 00:23:12,880 --> 00:23:15,919 Speaker 2: as my book makes clear, Phil is not always the 396 00:23:15,960 --> 00:23:21,359 Speaker 2: person he seems to be. And I had someone recently, 397 00:23:22,080 --> 00:23:25,080 Speaker 2: in sort of casual conversation out on the golf course, 398 00:23:26,359 --> 00:23:30,320 Speaker 2: ask me, why was Alan writing a book on Phil? 399 00:23:30,440 --> 00:23:33,720 Speaker 2: You know, you know the timing of what he said, 400 00:23:33,760 --> 00:23:35,960 Speaker 2: You trying to get a hold of him him not 401 00:23:37,040 --> 00:23:38,879 Speaker 2: let it, you know, sort of you convincing him that 402 00:23:39,080 --> 00:23:42,000 Speaker 2: his inner circle needed to kind of talk to you 403 00:23:42,119 --> 00:23:44,040 Speaker 2: so that the book that you were writing could be 404 00:23:44,040 --> 00:23:47,040 Speaker 2: fair and balanced. And someone's someone saying, why was Phil 405 00:23:47,080 --> 00:23:49,440 Speaker 2: writing a book? Why was Alan writing a book on Phil, 406 00:23:49,440 --> 00:23:53,560 Speaker 2: and I was like, have you read the book? It's 407 00:23:53,640 --> 00:23:57,840 Speaker 2: because it's all of this because he's so complicated. You know, 408 00:23:57,880 --> 00:24:03,199 Speaker 2: it's complicated, it's layered, it's complex. I mean, you know, 409 00:24:03,640 --> 00:24:06,080 Speaker 2: I don't know, I don't know, like the the just 410 00:24:06,160 --> 00:24:10,960 Speaker 2: the Phil being this big onion and just the peeling 411 00:24:11,040 --> 00:24:13,959 Speaker 2: back of who he is and what he is and 412 00:24:14,000 --> 00:24:17,399 Speaker 2: how he operates and the relationships he has or the 413 00:24:17,400 --> 00:24:20,480 Speaker 2: bets that he had, like it's just so so much. 414 00:24:21,320 --> 00:24:24,959 Speaker 2: It's and you know, even to this day, like you know, 415 00:24:25,040 --> 00:24:28,359 Speaker 2: and the Saudis and the breakaway League and the he 416 00:24:28,520 --> 00:24:32,640 Speaker 2: just like it's just he is. He is quite a 417 00:24:32,720 --> 00:24:33,560 Speaker 2: quite a character. 418 00:24:35,080 --> 00:24:37,240 Speaker 1: Yeah, And you know, I have my own book coming 419 00:24:37,280 --> 00:24:40,240 Speaker 1: out in a little while about the Live Golf PGA Tour, 420 00:24:40,320 --> 00:24:45,000 Speaker 1: and I've learned so much about Phil in this process. 421 00:24:45,040 --> 00:24:46,879 Speaker 1: And of course everyone knows he was he was he 422 00:24:47,000 --> 00:24:50,159 Speaker 1: was deep in league with the Saudis, but there was 423 00:24:50,160 --> 00:24:53,600 Speaker 1: two other breakaway leagues that Phil was heavily involved. He 424 00:24:53,640 --> 00:24:56,680 Speaker 1: was advocating for the PGL, the Premier Golf League, which 425 00:24:56,720 --> 00:24:59,320 Speaker 1: was a precursor to all this. Uh. And there's a 426 00:24:59,400 --> 00:25:03,720 Speaker 1: hilarious bit where I mean, I'm ruining a funny part 427 00:25:03,720 --> 00:25:08,439 Speaker 1: in my book. But he calls up Keith Pelly of 428 00:25:08,480 --> 00:25:10,399 Speaker 1: the European Tour, you know, the CEO of the European Tour. 429 00:25:10,440 --> 00:25:13,280 Speaker 1: He's like, Keith, you're a visionary. The PGL is gonna work, 430 00:25:13,680 --> 00:25:15,919 Speaker 1: like you got to make it happen. And he's like, 431 00:25:15,960 --> 00:25:18,440 Speaker 1: if we just need one player to sign and everyone 432 00:25:18,480 --> 00:25:21,240 Speaker 1: will sign, including Tiger, you know, and like Phil just 433 00:25:21,280 --> 00:25:23,640 Speaker 1: geting this hard selly. It's just funny that he calls 434 00:25:23,640 --> 00:25:26,479 Speaker 1: a Pelly and you know you're a visionary, Like I 435 00:25:26,520 --> 00:25:29,800 Speaker 1: just love it. It's so over the top. And then 436 00:25:29,920 --> 00:25:33,200 Speaker 1: there was this third rail thing that Phil he took 437 00:25:33,240 --> 00:25:35,840 Speaker 1: to this big private equity firm in New York and 438 00:25:36,000 --> 00:25:39,080 Speaker 1: was was kind of like he had they had this 439 00:25:39,200 --> 00:25:41,639 Speaker 1: other idea. This this came out in the New York 440 00:25:41,680 --> 00:25:44,919 Speaker 1: Post a while ago, and it's just like he was 441 00:25:44,920 --> 00:25:47,159 Speaker 1: working four sides of this street. He was negotiating with 442 00:25:47,160 --> 00:25:49,760 Speaker 1: the tour, with the Saudi's, with Premiere Golf League, and 443 00:25:49,800 --> 00:25:53,280 Speaker 1: with these private equity guys, and it's just unbelievable. I 444 00:25:53,320 --> 00:25:58,280 Speaker 1: mean again, you could say Phil was right like it. 445 00:25:58,400 --> 00:26:00,359 Speaker 1: One of the lessons from this framework a green and 446 00:26:00,400 --> 00:26:02,800 Speaker 1: this all of this is that the tour business model 447 00:26:02,840 --> 00:26:05,679 Speaker 1: was outdated and they needed to be for profit like 448 00:26:05,800 --> 00:26:08,679 Speaker 1: the other leagues are in professional sports, and they needed 449 00:26:09,000 --> 00:26:12,240 Speaker 1: to have the ability to take outside money. And Phil 450 00:26:12,280 --> 00:26:14,359 Speaker 1: saw that very clearly. But he was just trying to 451 00:26:14,400 --> 00:26:16,000 Speaker 1: make it happen in the in the back alleys, in 452 00:26:16,040 --> 00:26:20,280 Speaker 1: the shadows. But he wasn't He wasn't wrong on the merits. 453 00:26:20,280 --> 00:26:24,159 Speaker 1: It's just the way he handled everything. And you know, again, 454 00:26:25,040 --> 00:26:28,000 Speaker 1: I send a tweet out about the Billy Walters stuff 455 00:26:28,000 --> 00:26:30,360 Speaker 1: this morning, and some folks have responded, it's his money, 456 00:26:30,400 --> 00:26:34,439 Speaker 1: he can do what he wants. Sure, that's totally true. 457 00:26:34,680 --> 00:26:37,920 Speaker 1: It is his money he can set on fire. However, 458 00:26:38,280 --> 00:26:42,359 Speaker 1: where it becomes more complex is if he's betting so 459 00:26:42,560 --> 00:26:46,119 Speaker 1: much and losing so much that he has to chase money, 460 00:26:46,720 --> 00:26:49,800 Speaker 1: and that leads to a complete reshifting of the entire 461 00:26:49,800 --> 00:26:53,800 Speaker 1: professional golf landscape, which might or might not be exactly 462 00:26:53,880 --> 00:26:59,600 Speaker 1: what happened. Then Phil's private gambling becomes a keen interest 463 00:26:59,640 --> 00:27:01,720 Speaker 1: to the higher golf world and it had haess have 464 00:27:01,840 --> 00:27:07,359 Speaker 1: this cascading effect on the entire sport. So, you know, 465 00:27:08,119 --> 00:27:13,960 Speaker 1: it's it's interesting, I fully, you know, when when players 466 00:27:13,960 --> 00:27:19,159 Speaker 1: get in trouble with the drugs, alcohol, women, Like I 467 00:27:19,520 --> 00:27:22,120 Speaker 1: tryed to wag my finger. You know, I'm not trying 468 00:27:22,160 --> 00:27:25,160 Speaker 1: to moralize, like we're all flawed, we all make mistakes, 469 00:27:26,640 --> 00:27:31,480 Speaker 1: and but when there's larger consequences, then it becomes it 470 00:27:31,560 --> 00:27:35,840 Speaker 1: spills into the public domain. And so it's it's just 471 00:27:35,880 --> 00:27:39,879 Speaker 1: a fast it's just another fascinating chapter. I mean, I 472 00:27:39,920 --> 00:27:42,359 Speaker 1: remember you and I Matt talking like ten years ago 473 00:27:42,400 --> 00:27:45,439 Speaker 1: about golf has to prepare for the post Tiger and 474 00:27:45,520 --> 00:27:48,760 Speaker 1: Phil era right, like they can't go on forever as 475 00:27:48,760 --> 00:27:52,880 Speaker 1: the headliners. But here we are, like fills in his fifties. 476 00:27:53,320 --> 00:27:57,000 Speaker 1: Tiger's broken down heading for age fifty, and they still 477 00:27:57,040 --> 00:27:59,359 Speaker 1: dominate the discourse and every way. You know, Tiger is 478 00:27:59,400 --> 00:28:01,800 Speaker 1: now going to save the PG Tour by joining the board, 479 00:28:02,400 --> 00:28:06,920 Speaker 1: and he organized the meeting in Delaware and all of it, 480 00:28:07,080 --> 00:28:10,200 Speaker 1: and uh, you know, the whole world vibrates whenever he 481 00:28:10,240 --> 00:28:11,879 Speaker 1: teas it up, even when he misses the cut. And 482 00:28:12,440 --> 00:28:14,800 Speaker 1: you know, here's Phil almost one of the masters this year, 483 00:28:15,000 --> 00:28:17,600 Speaker 1: and he's the center of all these storms. And now 484 00:28:17,640 --> 00:28:20,520 Speaker 1: there's this this Billy Walter's book and he has a 485 00:28:20,520 --> 00:28:23,600 Speaker 1: prominent role in my next book. It's like we can't 486 00:28:23,680 --> 00:28:25,720 Speaker 1: quit these guys like they just won't go away. 487 00:28:25,760 --> 00:28:26,000 Speaker 2: There. 488 00:28:26,280 --> 00:28:30,480 Speaker 1: The cult of personality around Tiger and Phil is so monumental. 489 00:28:31,200 --> 00:28:34,000 Speaker 1: We're never going to escape them. I mean, we're you 490 00:28:34,040 --> 00:28:35,399 Speaker 1: and I are going to be in our seventies and 491 00:28:35,440 --> 00:28:36,920 Speaker 1: so are they, and we're still going to be talking 492 00:28:36,920 --> 00:28:39,680 Speaker 1: about them and writing about them. It's just it's unbelievable. 493 00:28:40,240 --> 00:28:44,200 Speaker 1: But I mean maybe we're lucky they're they're certainly fascinating, 494 00:28:44,280 --> 00:28:49,200 Speaker 1: and their their flaws and their their human element is 495 00:28:49,240 --> 00:28:51,480 Speaker 1: part of what makes it so interesting. Like like take 496 00:28:51,520 --> 00:28:56,000 Speaker 1: Derek Jeter or I don't know, Tom uh what, Patrick 497 00:28:56,040 --> 00:28:59,640 Speaker 1: Mahomes or Mike Trout. Those are better examples transcendent athletes. 498 00:29:00,280 --> 00:29:03,840 Speaker 1: Totally boring and no one's you can't write, you can't 499 00:29:03,840 --> 00:29:05,800 Speaker 1: talk about them for fifty years. They're just they're just 500 00:29:05,840 --> 00:29:09,320 Speaker 1: great athletes. But Phil and Tiger exist on so many 501 00:29:09,360 --> 00:29:12,840 Speaker 1: different levels, and they become these these moral questions, and 502 00:29:12,880 --> 00:29:14,880 Speaker 1: they become these mirrors where we have to we have 503 00:29:14,960 --> 00:29:18,560 Speaker 1: to look at ourselves and society as a whole, and 504 00:29:18,720 --> 00:29:22,880 Speaker 1: it's just it's it's unbelievable time to be alive as 505 00:29:23,240 --> 00:29:25,560 Speaker 1: as a golf fan and being on the golf media. 506 00:29:26,400 --> 00:29:28,680 Speaker 2: Oh yeah, and that's and we have also been talking 507 00:29:28,720 --> 00:29:32,480 Speaker 2: about that since the mid nineties, which is how lucky 508 00:29:32,480 --> 00:29:36,480 Speaker 2: are we to be alive and in this industry covering 509 00:29:36,920 --> 00:29:41,120 Speaker 2: Tiger and Phil like in the bloodstream of of what 510 00:29:41,200 --> 00:29:43,920 Speaker 2: these guys are pumping out, pumping through the sort of 511 00:29:43,920 --> 00:29:48,280 Speaker 2: the the bodies of sports fans and brought golf. You know, 512 00:29:49,640 --> 00:29:53,600 Speaker 2: golf needed Arnold Palmer, and Arnold Palmer needed Jack Nicholas. 513 00:29:54,200 --> 00:29:57,400 Speaker 2: Golf needed Tiger Woods, and Tiger Woods needed Phil Mickelson 514 00:29:57,920 --> 00:30:00,080 Speaker 2: because you have to have someone to go along with you. 515 00:30:00,080 --> 00:30:02,760 Speaker 2: You and we, you know, we caught the tail end 516 00:30:02,800 --> 00:30:06,280 Speaker 2: of the first part, you know of Tiger and Jack, 517 00:30:06,400 --> 00:30:09,840 Speaker 2: I mean of Arnold and Jack. We got Tiger and 518 00:30:09,840 --> 00:30:14,280 Speaker 2: then Phil. I think the bigger question for me is 519 00:30:15,440 --> 00:30:18,480 Speaker 2: who is the next who is the next sort of 520 00:30:19,160 --> 00:30:24,720 Speaker 2: you know, competitor and you know golfer for that matter, 521 00:30:25,320 --> 00:30:29,880 Speaker 2: Who's going to fill this insane void on the course 522 00:30:30,440 --> 00:30:33,640 Speaker 2: of what these got you know, brooks Kepler and Bryson 523 00:30:33,720 --> 00:30:36,360 Speaker 2: d Schambeau or you know, it's not it's not that 524 00:30:36,520 --> 00:30:40,560 Speaker 2: that's Tadley Winks compared to like what we're talking about 525 00:30:40,840 --> 00:30:41,840 Speaker 2: with Tiger and Phil. 526 00:30:42,520 --> 00:30:45,720 Speaker 1: I uh well, partly probably no one because they've been 527 00:30:45,720 --> 00:30:48,760 Speaker 1: such cautionary tales. I mean, I think you look at 528 00:30:48,800 --> 00:30:52,680 Speaker 1: a guy like Rory, I think he watched Tiger's life 529 00:30:52,720 --> 00:30:56,840 Speaker 1: disintegrate and all the strife that Tiger's been through, and 530 00:30:56,880 --> 00:30:59,840 Speaker 1: that helped Rory. You know, Roy was kind of swinging 531 00:31:00,160 --> 00:31:02,520 Speaker 1: single guy, and he was chasing girls, and he was 532 00:31:02,600 --> 00:31:05,040 Speaker 1: driving fast cars and he was doing all that stuff. 533 00:31:05,040 --> 00:31:06,280 Speaker 1: It was a little more low key and a little 534 00:31:06,320 --> 00:31:09,000 Speaker 1: more controlled, but he was having his fun for sure. 535 00:31:09,040 --> 00:31:12,240 Speaker 1: And I think he saw Tiger's life opening flames. He's like, yeah, 536 00:31:12,400 --> 00:31:14,640 Speaker 1: I better, I better change my trajectory a little bit, 537 00:31:14,720 --> 00:31:16,920 Speaker 1: or don't get married and have a kid and you've 538 00:31:16,960 --> 00:31:20,640 Speaker 1: become extremely private and hide behind very tall hedges. And 539 00:31:21,320 --> 00:31:23,440 Speaker 1: you know, I think I think Tiger and Philip scared 540 00:31:23,440 --> 00:31:27,080 Speaker 1: a lot of these guys straight, and. 541 00:31:25,640 --> 00:31:28,240 Speaker 2: And social media, by the way, like it's just a 542 00:31:28,280 --> 00:31:30,720 Speaker 2: different time. It's just a different time. And then you know, 543 00:31:30,840 --> 00:31:36,720 Speaker 2: there's there's not the veils that these guys mounted, you know, 544 00:31:37,760 --> 00:31:41,640 Speaker 2: from a business standpoint, from a personal standpoint, and you know, 545 00:31:41,800 --> 00:31:45,800 Speaker 2: all the the the the the the stuff that they 546 00:31:45,800 --> 00:31:49,040 Speaker 2: were involved in was just stuff that you know, and 547 00:31:49,040 --> 00:31:51,840 Speaker 2: and and Arnold, Arnold benefited from that, and I'm sure 548 00:31:51,880 --> 00:31:55,640 Speaker 2: many others you know of that era, not unlike in 549 00:31:55,680 --> 00:31:59,360 Speaker 2: any sport or or politics for that matter. And I 550 00:31:59,400 --> 00:32:02,760 Speaker 2: just think it's a different time. It's so hard to 551 00:32:02,920 --> 00:32:06,920 Speaker 2: create those facades in what we're living in today. 552 00:32:07,600 --> 00:32:10,280 Speaker 1: I mean it is wild Tigers, you know, selling Buick 553 00:32:10,400 --> 00:32:14,880 Speaker 1: family cars and rondevou we like you know, porn stars. 554 00:32:15,120 --> 00:32:18,000 Speaker 1: And you know, Phil's the ultimate family man, skipping skipping 555 00:32:18,120 --> 00:32:20,680 Speaker 1: us opens for his kids events, and he's got all 556 00:32:20,720 --> 00:32:23,680 Speaker 1: this mob, all these shady dudes in his life and 557 00:32:23,680 --> 00:32:25,800 Speaker 1: all this other stuff. And I will say, you know, 558 00:32:25,840 --> 00:32:30,080 Speaker 1: Billy Walters in his book does does right that I'm 559 00:32:30,080 --> 00:32:33,320 Speaker 1: not going to get into Phil's private life, and that 560 00:32:33,360 --> 00:32:36,280 Speaker 1: will be a monumental sigh of relief to Fill and 561 00:32:36,360 --> 00:32:39,280 Speaker 1: the people around him, because they were very close. They 562 00:32:39,320 --> 00:32:41,960 Speaker 1: moved in the same circles, whether it's the Madison Club 563 00:32:41,960 --> 00:32:45,040 Speaker 1: in Palm Springs or wherever. And Billy knows a lot 564 00:32:45,080 --> 00:32:49,360 Speaker 1: of stuff, and that he ultimately went you know, bro 565 00:32:49,560 --> 00:32:53,320 Speaker 1: code and didn't put anything in print was a massive 566 00:32:53,360 --> 00:32:54,880 Speaker 1: favor to Phil and. 567 00:32:57,000 --> 00:33:01,640 Speaker 2: Will and quite frankly separates separates Billy from Phil in 568 00:33:01,720 --> 00:33:05,360 Speaker 2: a way to your point about like Phil could have 569 00:33:05,800 --> 00:33:07,880 Speaker 2: could have given a rope to his buddy but chose 570 00:33:07,960 --> 00:33:12,040 Speaker 2: not to. Yeah, that's a good point, I mean, and 571 00:33:12,160 --> 00:33:17,080 Speaker 2: also there's a big there is a little sliver of me, 572 00:33:18,400 --> 00:33:23,320 Speaker 2: you know. I just think Tiger and Phil were always fascinating. 573 00:33:23,360 --> 00:33:27,400 Speaker 2: We're always drawn by their greatness on the course there 574 00:33:28,280 --> 00:33:31,320 Speaker 2: they are just as fascinating off the course, and to 575 00:33:31,360 --> 00:33:35,640 Speaker 2: your point, again, will continue to be. It's amazing. It's 576 00:33:35,640 --> 00:33:40,920 Speaker 2: amazing what we've been able to follow along and observe 577 00:33:41,120 --> 00:33:44,520 Speaker 2: and witness. Sometimes it's been painful to watch. In many 578 00:33:44,560 --> 00:33:47,920 Speaker 2: cases it's been painful to watch. It is it's very 579 00:33:48,000 --> 00:33:51,400 Speaker 2: much like going to a car race. I mean, they're 580 00:33:51,400 --> 00:33:55,520 Speaker 2: going at very high speeds. It's high stakes. There's sharp turns, 581 00:33:56,200 --> 00:33:58,240 Speaker 2: you know, there's other that you know, if you're not rubbing, 582 00:33:58,280 --> 00:34:01,160 Speaker 2: you're not racing. These guys have been rubbing and racing 583 00:34:01,280 --> 00:34:04,760 Speaker 2: for a long stretch of time and at very high speed, 584 00:34:05,400 --> 00:34:08,359 Speaker 2: and to this point they're still alive to tell about 585 00:34:08,400 --> 00:34:11,440 Speaker 2: it and for us to watch. You know what's next. 586 00:34:12,040 --> 00:34:15,160 Speaker 2: You know, in a way, we thank you, Thank you 587 00:34:15,480 --> 00:34:16,320 Speaker 2: Tiger and Phil. 588 00:34:17,520 --> 00:34:19,840 Speaker 1: Yeah. I got a little shudder when you said that, 589 00:34:19,880 --> 00:34:24,440 Speaker 1: you know, thinking about Tiger's car accident and you know 590 00:34:24,600 --> 00:34:27,600 Speaker 1: it's real. It's real. And I put this in print. 591 00:34:27,640 --> 00:34:30,920 Speaker 1: I've talked about this before. I mean, it's dark when 592 00:34:30,920 --> 00:34:33,160 Speaker 1: you start looking at the details that accident. I mean, 593 00:34:34,040 --> 00:34:36,520 Speaker 1: he's never talked about it. It's all in the police report, 594 00:34:36,600 --> 00:34:38,520 Speaker 1: is how he bats it away. And in the police 595 00:34:38,560 --> 00:34:42,080 Speaker 1: report it says that pedal was depressed ninety nine percent 596 00:34:42,960 --> 00:34:46,000 Speaker 1: force throughout the whole accident. That doesn't happen. If you 597 00:34:46,000 --> 00:34:48,040 Speaker 1: fall asleep, that doesn't happen. If you get distracted by 598 00:34:48,040 --> 00:34:51,880 Speaker 1: your phone, like that's willful. And there's an elm. There's 599 00:34:51,920 --> 00:34:56,560 Speaker 1: something dark there. And you know Junior Say, if you remember, 600 00:34:56,840 --> 00:34:59,320 Speaker 1: he had a one car accident and a lot of 601 00:34:59,360 --> 00:35:02,560 Speaker 1: his friends were concerned about about him because this story 602 00:35:02,560 --> 00:35:04,680 Speaker 1: didn't check out, and then of course he wound up 603 00:35:04,680 --> 00:35:08,200 Speaker 1: taking his own life. And I've always thought about the 604 00:35:08,280 --> 00:35:11,520 Speaker 1: reporting around after after after Junior say, I was dead 605 00:35:12,400 --> 00:35:15,840 Speaker 1: when hearing about that that accident, and and how concerned 606 00:35:15,880 --> 00:35:19,480 Speaker 1: the people were in his world. And so yeah, it's 607 00:35:21,000 --> 00:35:24,000 Speaker 1: I mean, we we've marveled these guys as sportsmen, and 608 00:35:24,120 --> 00:35:27,440 Speaker 1: they've enriched our lives in so many ways as golf fans, 609 00:35:27,520 --> 00:35:31,560 Speaker 1: and the most transcendent moments of between the ropes of 610 00:35:31,560 --> 00:35:33,560 Speaker 1: of the last you know, three decades have been from 611 00:35:33,600 --> 00:35:36,480 Speaker 1: Tiger and Phil and they've been these these incredible characters. 612 00:35:36,480 --> 00:35:39,239 Speaker 1: But there's also there's there's a dark side there, and 613 00:35:39,280 --> 00:35:43,480 Speaker 1: there's a there's a level of concern and the recklessness 614 00:35:43,520 --> 00:35:46,680 Speaker 1: and the out of control aspects of their life. You're right, 615 00:35:46,719 --> 00:35:49,920 Speaker 1: they've they're still here. It's somewhat incredible on some level. 616 00:35:49,960 --> 00:35:52,440 Speaker 1: And there you know, feel still going strong. I mean, 617 00:35:52,480 --> 00:35:54,200 Speaker 1: the guy almost went won the freaking Masters a few 618 00:35:54,239 --> 00:35:57,640 Speaker 1: months ago. So Tigers played a higher price, you know, 619 00:35:58,200 --> 00:36:04,520 Speaker 1: but it's it's real stuff, and it does I do 620 00:36:04,600 --> 00:36:07,440 Speaker 1: have empathy for both of them because and if you 621 00:36:07,440 --> 00:36:11,080 Speaker 1: and I were given access to unlimited money and fame 622 00:36:12,200 --> 00:36:14,320 Speaker 1: at a young age, like who knows what would have happened. 623 00:36:15,040 --> 00:36:18,200 Speaker 1: They might be writing books about you and I. Like, 624 00:36:19,200 --> 00:36:22,480 Speaker 1: So I'm not one, I'm not I'm not moralizing, I'm 625 00:36:22,520 --> 00:36:26,000 Speaker 1: not I'm not condemning them, like we've all made our mistakes. 626 00:36:26,040 --> 00:36:28,359 Speaker 1: And but there's as you said, it was at higher 627 00:36:28,400 --> 00:36:33,319 Speaker 1: speeds and higher stakes. And when I when I going 628 00:36:33,360 --> 00:36:34,880 Speaker 1: back to your question for a while ago, when I 629 00:36:34,920 --> 00:36:38,520 Speaker 1: read this Billy's book, you know, I felt some sadness 630 00:36:38,560 --> 00:36:43,200 Speaker 1: for Phil, because this was an important relationship in his 631 00:36:43,280 --> 00:36:47,080 Speaker 1: life that's just been napalmed. And if you remember what 632 00:36:47,239 --> 00:36:52,480 Speaker 1: got Billy Walters sentence commuted by President Trump was was 633 00:36:52,520 --> 00:36:56,400 Speaker 1: in part the support of the golf community. Butch Harmon, 634 00:36:57,640 --> 00:37:00,879 Speaker 1: David Ferdy, Peter Jacobson there among the guys who wrote 635 00:37:00,920 --> 00:37:04,680 Speaker 1: letters in support of Billy Walters. Those are three of 636 00:37:04,680 --> 00:37:09,280 Speaker 1: the most popular guys in golf, right. And from talking 637 00:37:09,320 --> 00:37:11,719 Speaker 1: to people at the Mass and Club and other places, 638 00:37:13,120 --> 00:37:14,719 Speaker 1: you kind of had to pick sides where you with 639 00:37:14,719 --> 00:37:19,120 Speaker 1: Phil or with Billy, And almost everyone took Billy's side. 640 00:37:19,160 --> 00:37:21,480 Speaker 1: And you know, I've been told that Phil's not really 641 00:37:21,520 --> 00:37:24,080 Speaker 1: welcome with the Mass and Club anymore. And that was 642 00:37:24,080 --> 00:37:25,960 Speaker 1: his home base in a lot of ways, and but 643 00:37:26,000 --> 00:37:29,120 Speaker 1: that was also Billy's spot. And so it's like the 644 00:37:29,160 --> 00:37:32,799 Speaker 1: people close to them chose sides, and they voted with 645 00:37:32,880 --> 00:37:35,000 Speaker 1: their feet and they all went. They all went with Billy. 646 00:37:35,239 --> 00:37:40,759 Speaker 1: And even you know, writ writing this live book, there's 647 00:37:40,800 --> 00:37:42,640 Speaker 1: a there's a theme with Greg Norman. It's like the 648 00:37:42,680 --> 00:37:46,040 Speaker 1: emptiness in his life and the lack of friends has 649 00:37:46,040 --> 00:37:48,520 Speaker 1: been this huge void and he's destroyed a lot of 650 00:37:48,560 --> 00:37:52,880 Speaker 1: friendships and it kind of feels the same with Phil. 651 00:37:53,200 --> 00:37:56,400 Speaker 1: You know, like the people that he was close to, 652 00:37:56,920 --> 00:37:58,560 Speaker 1: the Lama has been left behind. They don't have a 653 00:37:58,560 --> 00:38:02,160 Speaker 1: new number. He's just become kind of this recluse. And 654 00:38:02,239 --> 00:38:06,719 Speaker 1: so Billy Walters is part of that story, and he 655 00:38:06,800 --> 00:38:10,400 Speaker 1: tells it. He tells it pretty pretty bluntly in this book. 656 00:38:10,560 --> 00:38:16,960 Speaker 1: And so it's it's there's there's a heaviness to all 657 00:38:17,000 --> 00:38:19,200 Speaker 1: of this. I mean, can we can you have to 658 00:38:19,239 --> 00:38:22,400 Speaker 1: shake your head in amazement and almost laugh about the numbers. 659 00:38:22,520 --> 00:38:25,360 Speaker 1: They're so cartoonist of the betting. I mean, who bets 660 00:38:25,400 --> 00:38:28,680 Speaker 1: a billion dollars? It's like it's hard to you can't 661 00:38:28,680 --> 00:38:31,839 Speaker 1: even process it, and you have to laugh. But there's 662 00:38:31,880 --> 00:38:34,000 Speaker 1: there's a there's a there's a dark side to all 663 00:38:34,000 --> 00:38:37,600 Speaker 1: of this. And so you know, I think we're just 664 00:38:37,600 --> 00:38:41,240 Speaker 1: gonna see how it plays out, how Phil responds, and 665 00:38:41,239 --> 00:38:42,319 Speaker 1: and where we go from here. 666 00:38:43,560 --> 00:38:50,080 Speaker 2: The famous Andy Mill quote, former husband of Chris Everett, 667 00:38:50,440 --> 00:38:53,759 Speaker 2: who piled around with Greg Norman and his wife, and 668 00:38:53,800 --> 00:38:58,359 Speaker 2: then Chris Everett left Andy to be with Greg. They 669 00:38:58,400 --> 00:39:02,960 Speaker 2: got married, divorced, and Andy Mill saying I would have 670 00:39:03,000 --> 00:39:05,319 Speaker 2: taken a bullet for Greg. I just didn't know it 671 00:39:05,360 --> 00:39:06,399 Speaker 2: was going to come from his gun. 672 00:39:07,200 --> 00:39:09,919 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a classic and. 673 00:39:10,120 --> 00:39:13,600 Speaker 2: That that you know, and that's essentially what Billy said 674 00:39:14,000 --> 00:39:15,600 Speaker 2: at the end of you know, at the end of 675 00:39:15,640 --> 00:39:19,480 Speaker 2: the excerpt was you know this we were you know, 676 00:39:20,080 --> 00:39:22,799 Speaker 2: he was in the Whitewater, needed a needed a friend 677 00:39:22,840 --> 00:39:24,560 Speaker 2: and didn't happen. 678 00:39:24,600 --> 00:39:30,920 Speaker 1: But uh wow, Yeah, it's a lot. I mean, look 679 00:39:30,960 --> 00:39:32,840 Speaker 1: at like look at Nick Faldo. You know, there's been 680 00:39:32,880 --> 00:39:37,160 Speaker 1: a lot of messiness in his life, you know, Lee Trevino, 681 00:39:37,280 --> 00:39:40,040 Speaker 1: all the divorces and all the craziness. I mean, it 682 00:39:40,080 --> 00:39:42,480 Speaker 1: really begs a question. Now you have you have your 683 00:39:42,520 --> 00:39:45,239 Speaker 1: Jack Nicholas's who you know, been married to the same 684 00:39:45,239 --> 00:39:48,680 Speaker 1: woman's whole life, and there's there's there's exceptions to the rule. 685 00:39:48,760 --> 00:39:52,360 Speaker 1: But a lot of these great champions, they're so single 686 00:39:52,400 --> 00:39:55,239 Speaker 1: minded they just leave. They leave a lot of damage 687 00:39:55,239 --> 00:39:58,239 Speaker 1: behind in their lives and is it worth it? I mean, 688 00:39:58,239 --> 00:40:01,279 Speaker 1: only they can answer that question, that's all we We've 689 00:40:01,360 --> 00:40:03,960 Speaker 1: always had. This has come up in various times, like 690 00:40:04,200 --> 00:40:07,680 Speaker 1: if you could give Tiger trucierum and ask them only 691 00:40:07,760 --> 00:40:11,560 Speaker 1: one question, and people always have a different one. My question, 692 00:40:11,680 --> 00:40:14,880 Speaker 1: my answer is always saying was it worth it? I 693 00:40:14,960 --> 00:40:17,200 Speaker 1: was curious what Tiger said, I'm curious what Phil would say, 694 00:40:17,680 --> 00:40:20,719 Speaker 1: was it worth it? I mean, they they've been to 695 00:40:20,760 --> 00:40:23,960 Speaker 1: the mountaintop and they've they've they've tasted some of those 696 00:40:24,000 --> 00:40:27,600 Speaker 1: glorious moments in sports history. And and they've made fortunes, 697 00:40:27,640 --> 00:40:31,200 Speaker 1: and they've lost fortunes, and they've they've lost marriages. They've 698 00:40:31,640 --> 00:40:34,320 Speaker 1: liked all of it. It's it's wild stuff. 699 00:40:35,120 --> 00:40:38,400 Speaker 2: And and and I think they only have an answer 700 00:40:38,440 --> 00:40:42,960 Speaker 2: to that question right before the end. And so you know, 701 00:40:43,120 --> 00:40:46,880 Speaker 2: and the story is still going, so you know, I 702 00:40:46,320 --> 00:40:50,000 Speaker 2: I would imagine they probably need I would I would 703 00:40:50,040 --> 00:40:52,239 Speaker 2: think they still need time. I don't know, I don't know, 704 00:40:52,440 --> 00:40:52,799 Speaker 2: I don't know. 705 00:40:52,840 --> 00:40:55,840 Speaker 1: I think that's true. The story is still going. The 706 00:40:55,880 --> 00:40:59,480 Speaker 1: book has been written. It is Billy Walters a Gambler. 707 00:41:01,239 --> 00:41:03,759 Speaker 1: It's on sale everywhere next week. Of course, you can 708 00:41:03,760 --> 00:41:06,959 Speaker 1: find it wherever you buy your books. It's an interesting read. 709 00:41:06,960 --> 00:41:10,440 Speaker 1: And uh, as I said, Phil's only two chapters in it. 710 00:41:10,520 --> 00:41:13,120 Speaker 1: There's Billy's had a crazy life. I enjoyed learning more 711 00:41:13,160 --> 00:41:16,040 Speaker 1: about him. I mean he was he was born dirt 712 00:41:16,280 --> 00:41:21,440 Speaker 1: poor in Kentucky, abandoned by his parents. Like you talk 713 00:41:21,480 --> 00:41:24,840 Speaker 1: about a hard knock life, it's really an American story 714 00:41:26,480 --> 00:41:29,280 Speaker 1: and with a lot of twists and turns, so anyone, 715 00:41:29,400 --> 00:41:31,400 Speaker 1: anyone will enjoy it, this book, I believe. But the 716 00:41:31,640 --> 00:41:35,439 Speaker 1: Mickelson stuff is the is the head the headlines, it's 717 00:41:35,520 --> 00:41:38,520 Speaker 1: and it's it's the racist stuff. I think. So it's 718 00:41:38,520 --> 00:41:40,799 Speaker 1: been it's been interesting to pick it apart. Matt. Thanks 719 00:41:40,840 --> 00:41:42,280 Speaker 1: for doing this, appreciate your insight. 720 00:41:44,480 --> 00:41:48,640 Speaker 2: Thank you, and thank thank you for continuing to be 721 00:41:49,800 --> 00:41:53,480 Speaker 2: at the center of all of this in what I 722 00:41:53,520 --> 00:42:03,040 Speaker 2: would say has been a rather impressive display of commitment, time, effort, energy, reporting, writing, podcasting, 723 00:42:03,960 --> 00:42:07,520 Speaker 2: all the while doing any number of other things, including 724 00:42:07,719 --> 00:42:11,520 Speaker 2: coaching your your daughter's basketball team, and being an incredible 725 00:42:11,600 --> 00:42:14,560 Speaker 2: dad to the other three kids you have. So, I mean, 726 00:42:14,600 --> 00:42:18,239 Speaker 2: you know, it's amazing. It's it's always uh, you know, 727 00:42:19,000 --> 00:42:21,120 Speaker 2: it's great to work with you. It's also great to 728 00:42:21,160 --> 00:42:24,080 Speaker 2: talk with you about what it is we do and uh, 729 00:42:24,440 --> 00:42:28,400 Speaker 2: just incredible stuff. Yet again, Yeah, well. 730 00:42:28,200 --> 00:42:33,240 Speaker 1: Back atcha, it's uh yeah, it's and it's just funny 731 00:42:33,239 --> 00:42:35,040 Speaker 1: because you know we're the same age as these guys. 732 00:42:35,080 --> 00:42:40,160 Speaker 1: I mean, it came up. I mean I turned pro 733 00:42:40,200 --> 00:42:42,600 Speaker 1: the same year Tigers. I left UCLA. When when Tiger 734 00:42:42,680 --> 00:42:45,840 Speaker 1: left Stanford, you know, when I was an intern at 735 00:42:45,840 --> 00:42:48,600 Speaker 1: Sports Illustrated. That was Phil's second full season. You've been 736 00:42:48,640 --> 00:42:51,279 Speaker 1: tracking them the whole way through as well, Like, it's just. 737 00:42:53,800 --> 00:42:56,680 Speaker 2: My life is complicated, Like we both juggle a lot 738 00:42:56,680 --> 00:43:00,000 Speaker 2: of things. When I read and hear about these guys lives, 739 00:43:00,120 --> 00:43:02,399 Speaker 2: I'm like Jesus, like. 740 00:43:02,400 --> 00:43:04,920 Speaker 1: How many how many people. 741 00:43:04,680 --> 00:43:07,719 Speaker 2: In their inner circle are they keeping busy trying to 742 00:43:07,840 --> 00:43:09,920 Speaker 2: keep up with these shenanigans. 743 00:43:10,920 --> 00:43:13,160 Speaker 1: Well, yeah, I mean I've now spoken to four different 744 00:43:13,200 --> 00:43:15,840 Speaker 1: lawyers for Phil Mickelson in the last couple of years, 745 00:43:15,880 --> 00:43:20,319 Speaker 1: So that's is. 746 00:43:20,360 --> 00:43:21,919 Speaker 2: Just so much lower than theirs. 747 00:43:22,800 --> 00:43:25,600 Speaker 1: Some people have a lawyer if you're like, really have 748 00:43:25,680 --> 00:43:27,319 Speaker 1: a big life, you might have two. I mean, he's 749 00:43:27,320 --> 00:43:31,440 Speaker 1: got at least four. It's wild incredible, It's incredible, incredible. 750 00:43:31,600 --> 00:43:34,960 Speaker 1: All right, good stuff, Well, thanks for listening. This was 751 00:43:35,040 --> 00:43:38,160 Speaker 1: another fire a drill. We will be back at you 752 00:43:38,239 --> 00:43:40,839 Speaker 1: with who knows what's coming next. There's always something here 753 00:43:40,840 --> 00:43:45,400 Speaker 1: at Fire Collective, but we appreciate your fidelity. Thanks for listening, 754 00:43:45,520 --> 00:43:48,320 Speaker 1: and this is the end. Goodbye. 755 00:43:49,160 --> 00:43:54,080 Speaker 3: I'm been big. I play the Wind, made a fortune 756 00:43:54,120 --> 00:43:58,040 Speaker 3: when my ship game and ran the table, and I 757 00:43:58,040 --> 00:44:01,440 Speaker 3: have thought I could fall in the winter time. Hit 758 00:44:01,560 --> 00:44:06,480 Speaker 3: me like a cannon in the ball and now I 759 00:44:06,520 --> 00:44:11,520 Speaker 3: can't shake this losing streak. Every road I take is 760 00:44:11,600 --> 00:44:16,839 Speaker 3: a dead end street. I got thoughts in my head, 761 00:44:17,520 --> 00:44:21,279 Speaker 3: can't get them out, trying not to think what I'm 762 00:44:21,320 --> 00:44:25,359 Speaker 3: thinking about. I've got thoughts in my head. I can't 763 00:44:25,400 --> 00:44:30,520 Speaker 3: get them out, trying not to think what I'm thinking about.