WEBVTT - Flying on Battery Power 0:00:15.316 --> 0:00:24.596 Pushkin. The energy transition is here. It's upon us. The 0:00:24.756 --> 0:00:27.316 marginal cost of new solar and wind power is now 0:00:27.356 --> 0:00:30.916 below the marginal cost of new fossil fuel plants. Electric 0:00:30.956 --> 0:00:34.356 cars are amazing, Electric trucks are coming along. You know. 0:00:34.476 --> 0:00:37.516 The news really in some ways is better than I 0:00:37.596 --> 0:00:41.516 might have hoped for, say a decade ago. But planes, 0:00:42.396 --> 0:00:46.956 commercial airplanes, those are still a problem. As other sectors 0:00:46.956 --> 0:00:51.396 are decarbonizing, emissions from aviation are projected to triple by 0:00:51.436 --> 0:00:54.996 twenty fifty. This is partly because more people are flying 0:00:55.036 --> 0:00:58.196 every year, but it is also because figuring out how 0:00:58.236 --> 0:01:01.716 to build a commercial airplane that doesn't burn jet fuel 0:01:02.036 --> 0:01:06.276 is a very, very hard problem to solve. It may 0:01:06.356 --> 0:01:10.556 require combining frontier battery technology with a few tricks from 0:01:10.596 --> 0:01:19.836 the old dirty way of making planes fly. I'm Jacob Goldstein, 0:01:19.956 --> 0:01:22.476 and this is what's your problem. My guest today is 0:01:22.516 --> 0:01:26.676 Anders Forceland. He's the co founder and CEO of Heart Aerospace. 0:01:27.956 --> 0:01:31.036 Andrews problem is this, how do you build a commercial 0:01:31.076 --> 0:01:34.196 airplane that can fly on battery power and win the 0:01:34.236 --> 0:01:40.876 approval of regulators around the world. Andrews Forceland grew up 0:01:40.876 --> 0:01:44.876 in Sweden, got his PhD in aerospace product development there 0:01:45.196 --> 0:01:47.596 and he founded his company there, but he told me 0:01:47.636 --> 0:01:50.396 that the inspiration to start his company actually came from 0:01:50.516 --> 0:01:55.156 next door, came from Norway, and sort of early twenty eighteen, 0:01:56.236 --> 0:01:59.516 Norway announces that they want all their all their short 0:01:59.516 --> 0:02:02.756 haul domestic flights to be one hundreds electric by twenty forty. Okay, 0:02:03.036 --> 0:02:04.676 this is like the first country in the world that 0:02:05.196 --> 0:02:07.796 puts forth a mandate like this, and Norway is doing 0:02:07.836 --> 0:02:12.916 this on the heels they're incredibly successful electrification of their 0:02:12.996 --> 0:02:16.996 road traffic where you know, the new cars are electric 0:02:17.276 --> 0:02:20.236 and also you know the ferry infrastructure at all. So 0:02:20.276 --> 0:02:23.316 they're like, we electrified the boats, we electrified the cars, 0:02:23.716 --> 0:02:26.356 but like, yeah, there's no electric plane that exists in 0:02:26.356 --> 0:02:28.476 the world. When they put out the man nothing is 0:02:28.476 --> 0:02:32.236 even close, right, Well, No, what's happened is that a 0:02:32.276 --> 0:02:34.516 lot of people have looked at at sort of what's 0:02:34.516 --> 0:02:37.756 happened with the electrification of the cars, like Tesla, and 0:02:37.756 --> 0:02:38.916 there are a lot of people that have looked at 0:02:38.916 --> 0:02:41.676 what's happened with the drones, like the consumer small drones, 0:02:42.116 --> 0:02:44.196 And there's a bunch of projects that are trying to 0:02:44.196 --> 0:02:48.236 build what's called urban air mobility, like small like vertical 0:02:48.236 --> 0:02:52.036 takeoff and landing aircraft essentially a flying car, basically a 0:02:52.076 --> 0:02:56.156 flying car. Yeah, this sort of George Jetson future, right, Yeah, 0:02:56.156 --> 0:02:59.356 but nobody's looking it's not really the right product for Norway. 0:02:59.516 --> 0:03:03.276 Norway's looking for something to replace there. They're sort of turboprops, 0:03:03.396 --> 0:03:07.036 they're thirty seaters. Yeah, so we're we create a company 0:03:07.156 --> 0:03:09.396 or first we started research project in Sweden to what 0:03:09.396 --> 0:03:11.236 are we gonna do about this in Sweden? It's part 0:03:11.236 --> 0:03:13.436 of it like hey, wait, we can't let the Norwegians 0:03:13.476 --> 0:03:16.396 out Green US. We can't let them out net zero 0:03:16.516 --> 0:03:19.996 US to keep up with them or well yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. 0:03:20.036 --> 0:03:22.036 It's really like that. You know, there's a little bit 0:03:22.036 --> 0:03:24.956 of a brotherly competition, right. But but it's also that 0:03:24.996 --> 0:03:27.756 I'm recognizing that Sweden is always proud of itself, like 0:03:27.956 --> 0:03:30.596 were we have this great history in aerospace that goes 0:03:30.636 --> 0:03:33.236 back to the sort of Second World War and before that. 0:03:33.876 --> 0:03:37.396 But and we also have this you know, unique competence 0:03:37.436 --> 0:03:40.316 buility being built in electrifying cars and trucks. Like actually 0:03:40.316 --> 0:03:43.156 from the industry side side of something that Norway doesn't. Right, 0:03:43.196 --> 0:03:45.516 So I'm like, okay, maybe I can take this mandate. 0:03:45.796 --> 0:03:50.196 I can take this electromobility ecosystem in Sweden, and I 0:03:50.196 --> 0:03:52.356 can take the history in aerospace and sort of combine 0:03:52.396 --> 0:03:55.116 them into something and see what happens. So, just to 0:03:55.196 --> 0:03:58.356 be clear, you get some funding, right, Yeah, start hiring 0:03:58.396 --> 0:04:01.236 some people, you know, Yeah, and you're gonna build this 0:04:01.316 --> 0:04:06.276 nineteen seat plane powered by batteries and electric plane. Yeah, 0:04:06.596 --> 0:04:08.876 and it's gonna and it's gonna do the thing Norway 0:04:09.116 --> 0:04:12.276 needs it to do exactly. Yeah, with the sort of 0:04:12.876 --> 0:04:15.796 philosophy of you know, the real innovation is getting it done. 0:04:16.236 --> 0:04:18.516 So you know, this is something that's so hard to do, 0:04:18.636 --> 0:04:21.876 even for a large OEM. So as the startup, you 0:04:21.956 --> 0:04:25.756 really have to be cautious of not being you know, 0:04:25.996 --> 0:04:28.396 biting off more than you can chew. Right, this idea 0:04:28.396 --> 0:04:31.196 of limiting innovation, you said you're going to limit innovation. 0:04:31.356 --> 0:04:33.916 That's interesting to me. What do you mean by that. 0:04:34.476 --> 0:04:36.196 One of the reasons that we have so many startups 0:04:36.316 --> 0:04:37.916 I want to be like, I think it's because it's 0:04:37.956 --> 0:04:41.556 easy to generate a realistic image of your vision. So 0:04:41.956 --> 0:04:44.916 you could make a picture of some crazy futuristic plane 0:04:45.036 --> 0:04:47.236 on your computer and say to investors, work, we're going 0:04:47.276 --> 0:04:50.796 to build this. You could do this for free. You 0:04:50.796 --> 0:04:54.276 can just draw your vision of the future in the 0:04:54.316 --> 0:04:56.876 sort of CGI and you can you can show it 0:04:56.956 --> 0:05:00.276 to people. But the challenge of an aircraft is that 0:05:00.316 --> 0:05:03.196 you need to prove that you won't have, you know, 0:05:03.556 --> 0:05:07.236 less than one serious incident in one hundred million hours. 0:05:07.836 --> 0:05:10.396 So you don't just need to build something that can fly, 0:05:11.076 --> 0:05:14.116 You need to build something that can fly essentially perfectly 0:05:14.396 --> 0:05:17.596 under every condition you can imagine, with everything going wrong. 0:05:17.636 --> 0:05:21.276 Like it's it's it's the most high bar to clear 0:05:21.356 --> 0:05:25.356 for any kind of manufactured thing you can imagine. Yeah, 0:05:25.476 --> 0:05:27.956 it's like, you know, if you want to prove something, 0:05:27.956 --> 0:05:29.316 you say, how do you prove that this is not 0:05:29.316 --> 0:05:31.276 going to break in a hundred million hours? Right? And 0:05:31.396 --> 0:05:33.236 these is way to do that as saying, well, there's 0:05:33.276 --> 0:05:36.676 these flames flying around, they have the solution, so we're 0:05:36.716 --> 0:05:39.556 gonna do what they're doing. And then the certification authorities says, well, 0:05:39.596 --> 0:05:42.796 that's good enough. So you decide you just want to 0:05:42.836 --> 0:05:46.356 focus on the fuel essentially, right, switching from jet fuel 0:05:46.396 --> 0:05:48.956 to batteries, which is a very hard problem, right, I mean, 0:05:48.996 --> 0:05:52.116 one of the things that maybe is just worth dwelling 0:05:52.116 --> 0:05:57.756 on for a moment. Is how amazingly energy dense jet 0:05:57.796 --> 0:06:00.196 fuel is? How good jet fuel is that doing the 0:06:00.196 --> 0:06:02.556 thing it needs to do? Right? I mean, one way 0:06:02.596 --> 0:06:05.516 to talk about it is sort of jet fuel has 0:06:05.556 --> 0:06:09.196 a specific energy density. You have about twelve thousand and 0:06:09.756 --> 0:06:13.476 water hours per kilo out right, and batteries right now 0:06:13.476 --> 0:06:16.236 on a cell level are approaching like four hundred. But 0:06:16.516 --> 0:06:18.716 you know a Tesla Model three is like two fifty. 0:06:18.796 --> 0:06:20.876 So wait, there's a lot of units in numbers there. 0:06:20.876 --> 0:06:23.516 But just to get the ratio is it? Are you 0:06:23.556 --> 0:06:28.396 saying jet fuel is about thirty times as energy dense 0:06:28.516 --> 0:06:32.396 as a battery. Yeah, thirty to forty times. So that's 0:06:32.396 --> 0:06:35.196 a huge problem for you. So for every pound, every 0:06:35.276 --> 0:06:39.156 kilogram of jet fuel, you get thirty times as much 0:06:39.236 --> 0:06:40.916 energy as you can get for a pound or a 0:06:40.996 --> 0:06:44.236 kilogram of battery. Like that seems like the fundamental problem 0:06:44.396 --> 0:06:47.676 you're up against, Yeah, it is. How do you deal 0:06:47.716 --> 0:06:49.676 with that problem? Like, as you're trying to figure out 0:06:49.676 --> 0:06:51.716 how to make a plane that's going to carry all 0:06:51.756 --> 0:06:54.436 this battery energy and fly, Like, how do you deal 0:06:54.476 --> 0:06:57.476 with that fundamental fact? So first of all, you try 0:06:57.476 --> 0:07:00.076 to make the plane as good as possible, and waste 0:07:00.076 --> 0:07:02.316 of doing that is actually building a plane with a 0:07:02.396 --> 0:07:04.996 large wing, make an entire plane a little bit larger 0:07:05.396 --> 0:07:08.236 because you're carrying more The weight of the batteries are 0:07:08.236 --> 0:07:10.676 more than the weight of the past. Basically, you've got 0:07:10.676 --> 0:07:13.796 to build more plane to carry all that battery. Is 0:07:13.836 --> 0:07:16.716 that right exactly? That's a really good way you're putting in. 0:07:16.916 --> 0:07:20.236 But then it's sort of boils down to philosophy, and 0:07:20.316 --> 0:07:23.036 this is I think where we are. You know, then 0:07:23.036 --> 0:07:26.396 you have to realize something about new technology and disruptive technology, 0:07:26.396 --> 0:07:30.196 and is that you should not compete with the existing 0:07:30.236 --> 0:07:34.676 technology on the merits of the assisting technology. So we're 0:07:34.716 --> 0:07:37.636 obviously not going to beat jet engines on range. We're 0:07:37.676 --> 0:07:40.596 just or ELEC jet fuel on range. So what can 0:07:40.636 --> 0:07:43.196 we work with? So what we can do is we 0:07:43.196 --> 0:07:45.876 can have zero emissions, we can have a low noise, 0:07:46.396 --> 0:07:48.796 we can have zero local pollution, which is a big 0:07:48.836 --> 0:07:53.476 problem at airports, and we can have superior unit economics 0:07:53.916 --> 0:07:56.956 because we're replacing not only you know, the jet engine 0:07:56.996 --> 0:07:59.716 is the most expensive part of the plane, and you're 0:07:59.716 --> 0:08:03.316 replacing that with a simple electric motor that essentially has 0:08:03.396 --> 0:08:06.636 one moving part. So okay, so you're designing this plane 0:08:06.636 --> 0:08:09.956 in Sweden. You're thinking about the Norwegian mark kid, But 0:08:10.036 --> 0:08:12.716 then one day you get an email from United Airlines 0:08:12.836 --> 0:08:16.276 in the US. Right. It came through our infomail, and 0:08:16.356 --> 0:08:18.676 we were so close to missing it. It was like 0:08:18.716 --> 0:08:21.276 one of those times, you mean, like they just they 0:08:21.316 --> 0:08:24.996 just emailed you at like the generic at the jet email, 0:08:25.076 --> 0:08:28.876 somebody from United Airlines. Yeah, among with all this, and 0:08:28.916 --> 0:08:31.476 you're like and Clara, I god bless her. She was 0:08:31.516 --> 0:08:33.436 looking through it and she was like, you know, is 0:08:33.436 --> 0:08:35.756 this actually something? And then we stood up the call 0:08:35.876 --> 0:08:38.396 and it was like, oh, it's actually the real, real guys, right, 0:08:38.556 --> 0:08:40.556 And we asked them like, okay, you know, we talked 0:08:40.556 --> 0:08:43.276 about this market in Norway, the propeller aircraft, the sort 0:08:43.276 --> 0:08:46.276 of thirty seaters, and we like, give line an aircraft 0:08:46.316 --> 0:08:48.276 like that, and they said, no, not a single one. 0:08:48.996 --> 0:08:52.436 But if you go back to the nineteen nineties, they 0:08:52.476 --> 0:08:55.796 flew hundreds of these aircraft. Okay. So we start telling 0:08:55.876 --> 0:08:58.276 the story about you know, we think that actually it 0:08:58.356 --> 0:09:00.916 might be the jet engine, that it's a little bit 0:09:00.916 --> 0:09:04.396 too expensive, and they're like, are you kidding? You know, 0:09:04.516 --> 0:09:07.756 it is our biggest driver of costs. We pay so 0:09:07.836 --> 0:09:10.956 much for our maintenance of the jet engines. So here 0:09:10.996 --> 0:09:14.596 we are with this value proposition that we've sort of 0:09:15.436 --> 0:09:18.236 from a sort of an academic point of view put forth, 0:09:18.316 --> 0:09:20.076 and then we have one of the biggest airlines in 0:09:20.116 --> 0:09:22.236 the verse just validating that for us and telling you 0:09:22.316 --> 0:09:25.116 it's actually much worse, do you think? Huh? And by 0:09:25.156 --> 0:09:28.116 worse that means better for you, right, I mean the yeah, yeah, 0:09:28.116 --> 0:09:30.356 that worse than you think means they actually want to 0:09:30.356 --> 0:09:32.516 buy this thing you're trying to make. And they put 0:09:32.516 --> 0:09:34.956 on an order, right, Like, what is the deal you 0:09:34.956 --> 0:09:37.596 wind up making with them? So we end up actually 0:09:37.996 --> 0:09:40.876 they place an order some United in Masa Eage place 0:09:40.876 --> 0:09:43.196 an order of one hundred aircraft plus an option for 0:09:43.236 --> 0:09:46.396 initial fifty each, so we get like two hundred aircraft. 0:09:46.716 --> 0:09:49.356 They both invest in our company. And just one thing 0:09:49.356 --> 0:09:53.516 I want to clarify MESA is they're not a known 0:09:53.556 --> 0:09:55.956 sort of name brand, right. They operate small flights for 0:09:55.996 --> 0:09:58.236 other airlines, Is that right? Like? Which airlines that I 0:09:58.316 --> 0:10:00.916 would have heard of? Do they run flights for? They 0:10:00.916 --> 0:10:03.556 operate for among other things, Like one of their big 0:10:03.596 --> 0:10:10.116 customers is United and they operate as United Express. So okay, 0:10:10.156 --> 0:10:13.956 Anders has his big order from United and Mason. He 0:10:13.996 --> 0:10:16.636 has his vision, which I love. I'm gonna say it again, 0:10:16.956 --> 0:10:20.396 the real innovation is getting it done. But he is 0:10:20.436 --> 0:10:24.396 about to run into really quite a large problem that's 0:10:24.436 --> 0:10:32.596 coming up after the break. Now back to the show. 0:10:33.196 --> 0:10:36.436 Last year, Anders and his team hit a wall. It 0:10:36.516 --> 0:10:39.436 was thankfully a metaphorical wall. They didn't crash into anything, 0:10:39.756 --> 0:10:42.396 but it was still a lot to worry about. They 0:10:42.436 --> 0:10:46.116 started to realize that their nineteen seat all electric plane 0:10:46.596 --> 0:10:49.876 just was not going to pencil out. They could get 0:10:49.876 --> 0:10:52.636 it to fly, but in a way with a commercial airplane. 0:10:52.716 --> 0:10:55.516 That's the easy part. They probably even could have made 0:10:55.556 --> 0:10:58.836 it work commercially in Norway, but the US, the United 0:10:58.876 --> 0:11:02.116 States has this rule that requires planes to keep a 0:11:02.156 --> 0:11:04.836 lot of reserve power in case they have to you know, 0:11:04.876 --> 0:11:08.276 circle the runway reroute to a distant airport. And the 0:11:08.356 --> 0:11:11.756 US rules of reserve power meant that anders nineteen seat 0:11:11.836 --> 0:11:14.716 plane could only use like a third of its battery 0:11:14.796 --> 0:11:18.036 on ordinary flights, could only fly one hundred nautical miles. 0:11:18.276 --> 0:11:20.236 They had to keep the rest of the power in reserve, 0:11:20.476 --> 0:11:24.036 and such a short range was just way too short 0:11:24.316 --> 0:11:26.876 for that plane to be practical for it to work 0:11:26.916 --> 0:11:29.956 as a commercial airplane. So a few months ago, after 0:11:30.356 --> 0:11:33.116 years of work that cost millions and millions of dollars, 0:11:33.476 --> 0:11:36.356 Anders and his team trash their old plan for that 0:11:36.476 --> 0:11:38.996 nineteen seat plane. They threw it in the garbage, and 0:11:39.076 --> 0:11:43.916 they made a couple counterintuitive moves. One, they actually made 0:11:43.916 --> 0:11:46.556 their plane bigger. They went from one that carried nineteen 0:11:46.596 --> 0:11:50.676 people to one that carried thirty people. And two, they 0:11:50.716 --> 0:11:53.836 decided that their planes would carry a little bit of 0:11:53.916 --> 0:11:57.516 jet fuel to solve that reserve problems. So in the 0:11:57.516 --> 0:12:00.196 new vision, this thirty seat plane, they could still fly 0:12:00.236 --> 0:12:02.916 on batteries, would still fly on batteries, but in an 0:12:02.996 --> 0:12:06.476 emergency or for longer flights, the jet fuel could power 0:12:06.516 --> 0:12:08.916 a generator that would charge up the batteries give them 0:12:08.956 --> 0:12:11.556 more power. There was a lot I wanted to know 0:12:11.716 --> 0:12:15.996 about this shift starting with this. Really was it hard 0:12:16.036 --> 0:12:18.596 to look at all that time and money you spent 0:12:18.716 --> 0:12:22.436 working on the nineteenth seater and say, ah, you know, sorry, 0:12:22.516 --> 0:12:26.116 that was a mistake. We need to build a different plane. Actually, 0:12:26.196 --> 0:12:28.756 you know a lot of the you know, the stuff 0:12:28.756 --> 0:12:31.916 that we've done was very just transferable, Like all the 0:12:31.916 --> 0:12:36.316 words we've done on on avionics, on flight controls, propulsion, 0:12:36.476 --> 0:12:38.636 it was very like, okay, we've changed a little bit 0:12:38.596 --> 0:12:40.876 to that dimension. The wire has become a little bit longer. 0:12:41.156 --> 0:12:43.556 But it was like the same stuff, right. The only 0:12:43.596 --> 0:12:46.076 thing that we really had to throw away was the 0:12:46.116 --> 0:12:49.196 structural design, and we'd actually even built like it sounds 0:12:49.316 --> 0:12:52.596 that sounds non trivial, but we did have in our 0:12:52.676 --> 0:12:57.356 hanger we had a full scale model, representative model of 0:12:57.356 --> 0:13:00.836 this ES nineteen structure that we've just built and just completed. 0:13:01.036 --> 0:13:03.556 We haven't adn't really completed it, but we've built which 0:13:03.596 --> 0:13:05.716 was going to be this basic for this integrated test 0:13:05.756 --> 0:13:07.796 facility that we were building. That then you have to 0:13:07.796 --> 0:13:11.516 say to everybody who just built model, you know, sorry, guys, 0:13:11.556 --> 0:13:14.076 I got some bad news. Yeah. And I was like, 0:13:14.476 --> 0:13:16.476 by the way, we built this in about a year. 0:13:17.196 --> 0:13:18.516 Now you have to tear it down and you have 0:13:18.556 --> 0:13:22.076 to build a new one that's bigger in about two months, 0:13:22.116 --> 0:13:24.596 because in September we're announcing this to the work. How 0:13:24.636 --> 0:13:27.556 did that go over? Well? Surprisingly well. I think they 0:13:27.596 --> 0:13:29.636 became very crafty and they were like, okay, we can 0:13:30.036 --> 0:13:32.756 move the wing out. We can like they figured a 0:13:32.796 --> 0:13:34.956 little bit waste of actually doing a lot of little 0:13:35.116 --> 0:13:37.116 bit of reuse and they had a lot of lessons 0:13:37.196 --> 0:13:40.356 learned from building this structure. Okay, okay, but you know 0:13:40.516 --> 0:13:43.316 this is the startup life, right, So okay, so now 0:13:43.356 --> 0:13:45.676 you have just as of September, as of a couple 0:13:45.756 --> 0:13:48.076 months ago, you have a new sort of plan. Right, 0:13:48.116 --> 0:13:51.036 instead of a nineteen seat all electric power plane, it's 0:13:51.036 --> 0:13:53.196 going to be a thirty seat plane. It's going to 0:13:53.276 --> 0:13:55.556 be primarily powered by electric motors, but you're going to 0:13:55.636 --> 0:13:59.676 have this jet fuel power auxiliary power unit that gets 0:13:59.676 --> 0:14:02.516 you your reserve power. Right, So for most flights you 0:14:02.516 --> 0:14:05.676 can fly on the battery, but in a pinch, you 0:14:05.756 --> 0:14:10.076 can fire up the jet fuel. What do you have 0:14:10.196 --> 0:14:13.236 to do to get from that idea to having a 0:14:13.276 --> 0:14:17.036 plane that actually is in commercial service? So an aircraft 0:14:17.116 --> 0:14:20.956 is a lego kit of different parts coming together from 0:14:20.956 --> 0:14:24.836 different different suppliers. So it's really we start by then 0:14:24.956 --> 0:14:29.716 hiring a critical mass of engineers that know everything from 0:14:29.796 --> 0:14:32.956 you know, mechanical systems such as landing gear to flight controls, 0:14:32.996 --> 0:14:37.756 to avionics, to electrical systems obviously the electric propulsion structures, 0:14:39.276 --> 0:14:44.996 and they start then interacting with the worldwide supply chain network, 0:14:45.196 --> 0:14:48.316 you know, start going to different places looking at flight controls, 0:14:48.436 --> 0:14:51.356 or avionics stuff, and were you already doing that on 0:14:51.396 --> 0:14:54.996 the nineteen seater and does that transfer to the thirty seater? Yeah, 0:14:55.076 --> 0:14:58.756 we were already in that process. And I was like, okay, 0:14:58.796 --> 0:15:00.436 I need to make the call myself. I need to 0:15:00.476 --> 0:15:03.076 call my suppliers and say, by the way, guys, you know, 0:15:03.276 --> 0:15:06.716 change your plan. You know. The thing that scared me 0:15:06.756 --> 0:15:10.356 the most about this was not the sort of, oh, 0:15:10.476 --> 0:15:12.636 having to redo the structural work. It was the sort 0:15:12.676 --> 0:15:15.356 of we have to go out and say that, by 0:15:15.396 --> 0:15:18.116 the way, we've been really confident about this nineteen seater 0:15:18.236 --> 0:15:21.116 and we actually think that we were wrong. Right, So 0:15:21.516 --> 0:15:23.796 we end up making this call and we go through 0:15:23.956 --> 0:15:25.956 this is the analysis we've done, This is the tradeoffs 0:15:26.036 --> 0:15:29.436 we've done. We're actually thinking that, you know, we have 0:15:29.476 --> 0:15:30.756 to make this shift, and if we have to do it, 0:15:30.796 --> 0:15:32.596 we have to do it now, all right. And we 0:15:32.676 --> 0:15:35.876 do this with suppliers, we do this with airlines, and 0:15:36.156 --> 0:15:39.316 you know, everybody is like, yeah, this is what you 0:15:39.316 --> 0:15:42.156 should be doing, right, So we don't get any of 0:15:42.196 --> 0:15:45.116 that sort of backlash that we would have expected. Okay, 0:15:45.356 --> 0:15:47.676 but the thing that we want to enable is to 0:15:47.796 --> 0:15:52.476 understand the aircraft are not just products. Their platforms. Right. 0:15:52.796 --> 0:15:55.716 The Boeing seven three seven is a platform that came 0:15:55.716 --> 0:15:58.476 out in nineteen sixty nine and people are still flying 0:15:58.516 --> 0:16:01.436 it and there's no plans of building a new replacement 0:16:01.436 --> 0:16:04.316 for by Boing. So we wanted to create that platform 0:16:04.356 --> 0:16:08.396 where all these new technology can come together and and 0:16:08.476 --> 0:16:11.436 sort of bring to market. But the exciting thing about 0:16:11.476 --> 0:16:13.996 that is that you get these two hundred kilometer range 0:16:14.316 --> 0:16:18.996 at twenty twenty eight or you know, and then you 0:16:19.196 --> 0:16:22.076 start replacing the batteries. You do that with a new 0:16:22.076 --> 0:16:25.756 technology every two years or so, and you actually can grow. 0:16:26.236 --> 0:16:28.476 But first you got to get to twenty twenty eight 0:16:28.476 --> 0:16:31.116 at a plane that can actually fly, right, Yeah, So 0:16:31.156 --> 0:16:32.716 I want to just talk a little bit about what 0:16:32.756 --> 0:16:34.436 it takes to get from here to there. Right, that's 0:16:34.516 --> 0:16:37.596 just over five years, So, I mean there's a few 0:16:37.636 --> 0:16:40.436 there's sort of the technical questions. There's the financial questions, Like, 0:16:40.716 --> 0:16:42.836 so one is how much money do you have and 0:16:42.836 --> 0:16:44.596 how much money is it going to cost to get 0:16:44.636 --> 0:16:47.196 to having a plane that can fly commercially in twenty 0:16:47.236 --> 0:16:50.156 twenty eight. It's about a billion dollar project, right, Okay, 0:16:50.396 --> 0:16:53.276 we're about one tenth of that, right, So it's also 0:16:53.316 --> 0:16:56.636 a continuous fundraise and it's getting harder to raise money 0:16:57.156 --> 0:16:59.236 in general. I don't know what your situation is, but 0:16:59.276 --> 0:17:02.236 it clearly the sort of funding environment is now much 0:17:02.236 --> 0:17:04.116 harder than it was a year ago. Are you Is 0:17:04.116 --> 0:17:07.076 that a problem for you? I mean, I think we're 0:17:07.076 --> 0:17:09.676 seeing a prepared of sort of the HYPESI like, a 0:17:09.796 --> 0:17:12.236 natural point in the hype cycle of this technology. And 0:17:12.276 --> 0:17:16.516 obviously you know the market has its oscillations, but I 0:17:16.516 --> 0:17:19.076 would also say that that I think climate tech is 0:17:19.076 --> 0:17:21.396 one of those things that people are still very interested 0:17:21.436 --> 0:17:24.476 in funding and and you know, this is not a 0:17:24.476 --> 0:17:27.636 problem that's going away, right, So we're on this. So 0:17:27.636 --> 0:17:29.676 so there's there's the money, and you need to raise 0:17:29.716 --> 0:17:32.916 a lot more money, and then there's the like the 0:17:32.956 --> 0:17:38.716 technical side. I mean, is there some particular technical problem 0:17:38.836 --> 0:17:40.676 that you're working on that we can talk about in 0:17:40.676 --> 0:17:43.396 a way that's not too technical, but that like gets 0:17:44.076 --> 0:17:46.476 because like what you're trying to do is hard, right, 0:17:46.636 --> 0:17:50.276 Like it's clearly a hard problem, and so is there 0:17:50.396 --> 0:17:53.996 some piece of it that sort of shows that the 0:17:54.076 --> 0:17:57.476 broader challenges? I think that building aircraft is like a 0:17:57.556 --> 0:18:01.636 generalist problem, right, It's a hundred different things that you 0:18:01.676 --> 0:18:04.236 need to do just from a technology point of view, 0:18:04.516 --> 0:18:06.836 and it's not the best performing of these technologies that 0:18:06.956 --> 0:18:10.196 can get to decide your success. It's the worst performing. Right. 0:18:10.436 --> 0:18:13.516 If you build an aircraft by twenty twenty twenty eight, 0:18:13.636 --> 0:18:16.556 and you've done everything brilliantly, but you forgot to do 0:18:16.836 --> 0:18:19.796 landing gear, you're not going to take off, right, or 0:18:19.876 --> 0:18:23.116 something much smaller. Right, there's a million little things like 0:18:23.156 --> 0:18:24.436 you're not going to get the landing get but there 0:18:24.516 --> 0:18:27.356 might just be one little connection between two different systems 0:18:27.436 --> 0:18:29.716 or something, right, Yeah, I mean that there's there's many 0:18:29.716 --> 0:18:31.556 of stories like that, So everything needs to be like 0:18:31.676 --> 0:18:33.996 it's like it's like the worst link of the chain 0:18:34.076 --> 0:18:36.236 is what's going to break it. Yeah, And it's not 0:18:36.316 --> 0:18:38.116 just goes for the technical stuff. It goes from the 0:18:38.116 --> 0:18:41.156 commercial stuff. You know, it's infrastructure on the ground. It 0:18:41.236 --> 0:18:44.236 is yeah, you know, a regulatory it's all of these things. 0:18:44.316 --> 0:18:47.036 The infrastructure on the ground is a particular if that's 0:18:47.036 --> 0:18:48.876 a whole thing for you, right, because there's all this 0:18:49.036 --> 0:18:51.796 infrastructure in place at every airport to put jet fuel 0:18:51.876 --> 0:18:54.796 into airplanes, but there is not infrastructure in place to 0:18:54.876 --> 0:18:58.196 recharge the batteries of airplanes because that's not a thing, right, So, 0:18:58.756 --> 0:19:02.556 and presumably if these are little commuter planes or a 0:19:02.596 --> 0:19:05.116 little small short hop planes, you're gonna have to recharge 0:19:05.156 --> 0:19:07.276 them fast, right. You can't just like plug it in 0:19:07.276 --> 0:19:09.756 and leave it overnight. So is that is that a 0:19:09.796 --> 0:19:12.276 technical problem? Like how long does it take to recharge 0:19:12.636 --> 0:19:15.076 one of your planes or no, I mean it's it 0:19:15.236 --> 0:19:18.636 is about a thirty minute recharge, okay, And that is 0:19:18.676 --> 0:19:22.276 not a technical problem and definitely not from the charger 0:19:22.316 --> 0:19:24.476 point of view. We're looking at something that has the 0:19:24.516 --> 0:19:26.996 same standard. The news sort of standard that's from for 0:19:27.036 --> 0:19:29.956 electric trucks, which is, you know, goes up to three megawats, 0:19:30.116 --> 0:19:33.196 is like the MCS standard, which is you know it's 0:19:33.196 --> 0:19:34.796 going to be like okay, if you can build put 0:19:34.796 --> 0:19:36.276 it on a truck stop, you can put it on 0:19:36.316 --> 0:19:39.716 an airport. Electric trucks mean big big mac trucks, big 0:19:39.716 --> 0:19:43.116 big tractor trailers. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah, here's a big one. 0:19:43.276 --> 0:19:45.876 Are the batteries just too big and heavy? Where? Like, 0:19:45.916 --> 0:19:48.116 are you sure that that's going to be fine? Yeah? 0:19:48.156 --> 0:19:53.236 I mean they are big, they're heavy. There's certification problems. 0:19:53.396 --> 0:19:55.916 That's going to limit my market size, right, it's not 0:19:55.916 --> 0:19:58.436 going to limit if it flies or not. Okay, we'll 0:19:58.476 --> 0:20:00.556 build an aircraft and if the batteries become a little 0:20:00.556 --> 0:20:02.156 bit of heavier, we have to compromise a little bit 0:20:02.156 --> 0:20:04.676 on an all electric range and then we'll get to 0:20:04.716 --> 0:20:08.316 the new battery two years later. Right. So it is 0:20:08.436 --> 0:20:10.436 it is not thing that I think is an existential 0:20:10.516 --> 0:20:12.796 risk for this, right, It's not something that I think 0:20:12.836 --> 0:20:17.916 it's that being problem. It's more about figuring out whatever 0:20:18.076 --> 0:20:20.356 is the state of the art battery technology that's out 0:20:20.356 --> 0:20:23.436 there and save the automotive industry or other industries. How 0:20:23.476 --> 0:20:25.316 do you bring that through the solsage machine of actually 0:20:25.316 --> 0:20:29.556 building then eleation cell. Yeah, and how do we I 0:20:29.596 --> 0:20:32.676 think that is the problem. But remember there are already 0:20:32.676 --> 0:20:35.996 certified electric aircraft out there, certified in Europe which is 0:20:36.316 --> 0:20:39.676 the Pipistol values Electro So two seater electric aircraft are 0:20:39.716 --> 0:20:43.276 already flying. Okay, so we know you can have a 0:20:43.316 --> 0:20:46.596 battery powered plane that works and that is safe enough 0:20:46.596 --> 0:20:48.916 for regulators to approve it. So there is some threshold 0:20:48.956 --> 0:20:52.716 that has been cleared. It is definitely a challenging problem. Yeah, 0:20:53.236 --> 0:20:55.636 it's a lot of challenges, but it's not the sort 0:20:55.676 --> 0:20:58.636 of challenge in the sort of winning Nobo price. If 0:20:58.636 --> 0:21:02.476 you solve it an aerospace program, it's more like an 0:21:02.596 --> 0:21:06.596 organizational problem that it is like just technical. It's like 0:21:06.636 --> 0:21:09.996 getting people that are working on various systems to exactly 0:21:10.076 --> 0:21:12.116